BONUS The Friday Show - Matt Singer and Siskel and Ebert
Guest:And there's a brief mention in the book that they were at the NAPI convention, the television syndication convention, and WWF was there putting on matches.
Guest:So I have to believe that was the meeting of Hulk Hogan and Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:100%.
Marc:Chris.
Marc:Brandon McDonald.
Marc:It's great to see you, my friend.
Marc:Welcome back.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:You had a nice time in sunny California?
Marc:I really did.
Marc:It was an action-packed weekend of going to Joshua Tree, Palm Springs.
Marc:I went to LA.
Marc:I saw our friend Marc Maron do some comedy.
Marc:Yeah, where?
Guest:Was that Largo?
Marc:It was at Largo, which I have heard on countless podcasts, I feel like.
Marc:It is like the famed Largo Theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was awesome.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:He has some really great new material that is just busting me up.
Marc:I'm laughing to myself about it so often.
Marc:Did he do the babysitter bit?
Marc:No, he didn't do the babysitter bit.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:That's his big new set piece.
Marc:No, he did a bit about kids showing up in a show.
Marc:But what I really loved was he has a bit about going to the gym, going to Equinox.
Guest:Do you know that one?
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I don't know his full gym bit yet.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm sure I will take it in as it comes, as it comes together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh man, though.
Marc:Can I just tell you, it was like, that's a, that's a fucking close if I've ever heard one.
Marc:Like if I had to bet money, I'm like, Oh, I bet he closes a show with that one day.
Guest:And so with the kids, it's that he's talking now in his act about the, the, the kids coming to his other show in, in Washington.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he he mentioned that a parent brought a guy brought his two kids and he's just like, well, like, you know, why would you do that?
Marc:And also he was also like, oh, maybe I can maybe I can like cater to them.
Marc:Maybe I could do some stuff.
Marc:So it was really, really great.
Marc:And it was funny because, you know, he's a dirty comic.
Marc:And so he's just like paranoid about these two people out of, you know, a 12,000 person auditorium.
Marc:He called me in a panic about it when it happened.
Guest:Like before he went on.
Guest:He's like, these people may have brought – bringing their kids.
Guest:The kids are like nine years old.
Guest:What do I have to do?
Guest:I'm like –
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:You don't have to do anything.
Guest:Like I was saying to him, I was like, I remember like Tim Allen told the story that like when he, you know, he was a comic that did adult material.
Guest:Then he goes on, does home improvement.
Guest:And the next time he's doing comedy, he looks out in the crowd and it's like all kids.
Guest:And he's about to, you know.
Guest:the f word and whatever and i was like that's not you dude you're the guy with f in the title of your show right it's not it's not on you it's some irresponsible parent bringing a kid to this although maybe they're not irresponsible maybe the kids could totally handle it i who knows
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Also, you know, who knows if he knows what a nine-year-old looks like.
Marc:It's probably like, you know, maybe they just see his little kids and, you know, it's like actually a 17-year-old or something, you know.
Marc:Maybe a four-year-old.
Marc:Who cares?
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Not his problem.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Not his job.
Marc:It's totally fine.
Marc:But it did get me thinking.
Marc:about being a kid and as he talks about what he endured as a kid.
Marc:And he watched Deliverance when he was a kid, which I did not, by the way.
Marc:Did you watch Deliverance when you were a kid?
Guest:I don't remember watching it.
Guest:I remember there was one time it was on and I didn't watch it.
Guest:It was on the TV.
Guest:It was edited with commercials.
Guest:But I was in and out of the room.
Guest:I don't remember really watching.
Guest:I remember my brother watched it.
Guest:And when it was over, he was like, that movie was good.
Guest:But I didn't watch it.
Guest:uh but but he when he when mark was talking about that about deliverance and how it you know traumatized him and that and i get it like if you're a kid and you see you know a guy getting shot through the heart with an arrow and you're not prepared for that it's you know a little gnarly but man i was so beyond that point when i was like i just been watching so much stuff and it was probably not on the level for me to have been watching it but like
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was four years old when we went to see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and the guy got his heart pulled out of his chest.
Marc:And I was fine.
Guest:I had no problem with that.
Marc:That didn't bother you, huh, as a kid?
Guest:Not in the slightest.
Guest:No, like, it not only didn't bother me, I was like, oh, when are we going to go back and watch the movie where the guy got his heart pulled out of his chest?
Marc:Well, can you recall any sort of filth that affected you when you were a kid?
Guest:You know, it wasn't even filth.
Guest:It was, I remember as I got older and things became a little, I guess it was as empathy grew, right?
Guest:And I remember, you know what I remember was like one of the first times I was super disturbed and bothered like for weeks after.
Guest:was the scene in Dances with Wolves when the guy who is like, you know, his escort out to the tribal lands, you know, is a guy who escorts Kevin Costner out there.
Guest:And then he leaves and he gets attacked by the other tribe on his way out and they scalp him and kill him.
Guest:And there's a part where right before they're going to scalp him, they go over to him and he goes like, just don't hurt my mule.
Guest:And then they kill him.
Guest:And, and that was like, you know, horrible in the sense that like, like the first time I conceived of what a scalping was, cut his head off.
Guest:And I was really bothered by it.
Guest:Like to the point where that's like a three hour movie that I'm sitting there through the whole time.
Guest:And I'm like, I don't like this.
Guest:Cause I just saw something really disturbing to me.
Guest:And, but I think it was like, if that had just been a movie where like, you know, in the, the very negative stereotyping way, it had been like cowboys and Indians and, you know, there were people getting shot with arrows and killed.
Guest:I wouldn't have cared, but it was that development of empathy and hearing this guy, like, you know, die, an innocent guy die and worry about his animal as he was on the way out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was messed up by that.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When I was a kid, I remember being freaked out and thinking alcohol was bad only because of, I watched Poltergeist 2 and the dad drinks the worm in the tequila bottle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it comes out of him huge.
Marc:Yeah, it becomes a monster.
Marc:That freaked me the fuck out.
Marc:And I was always like, you shouldn't drink alcohol.
Guest:You and Dawn had the same traumatic experience.
Guest:My wife, she was traumatized by, because she didn't watch any horror.
Guest:She stayed very far away from it.
Guest:But one time she was in like a Kmart or a Sears or something.
Guest:And in the TV section, on the screens, they were showing Poltergeist 2.
Guest:And it was the scene where the kids' braces attack him.
Guest:And she was ruined.
Guest:She still talks about it to this day.
Guest:That like the braces kid from Poltergeist 2 was a traumatic moment for her.
Marc:Poltergeist 2 is fucked up, man.
Marc:And like people, people just would have it on.
Marc:Like it was on at Sears.
Marc:Why the fuck was it on at Sears?
Guest:Yeah, it probably shouldn't have been on at Sears.
Guest:Let's just,
Guest:Like, that's one thing, it's an amazing thing in, like, the 80s, like, the guy running the demo, oh, I love to watch Poltergeist 2.
Guest:Like, nowadays, it's like, there's a thing you have to run, like, the demo thing of, like, the, you know, it shows sports and it shows things in HD quality, you know, 4K, whatever.
Guest:Like, no, this kid was just like, oh, I'd like to watch Poltergeist 2 and put that on.
Guest:Maybe he was a Siskel and Ebert fan.
Guest:And so he was just, you know, decided to turn on the latest episode and see what movies would come up.
Guest:I obviously make that Rocky segue because it's a very special episode for us today.
Guest:Matt Singer.
Guest:Matt Singer is a film critic and writer and historian on film who now has a great book.
Guest:That comes out next week.
Guest:It's called Opposable Thumbs, How Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever.
Guest:And Chris, I mean, I don't know that there's much more that we have to say that we don't say in our actual conversation with Matt.
Guest:But I mean, like...
Guest:Suffice it to say, as much as we've talked about wrestling or sports or anything that we talk about here, like Siskel and Ebert are as formative to our lives as any other element of culture.
Guest:Would you say that's fair?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:That's fair.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, this was a show I would thumb through my TV guide to make sure it was on when it was on last week.
Marc:Because sometimes it would change.
Marc:Yeah, it got moved around.
Marc:Yes, it got moved around.
Marc:So I had to literally appointment television this.
Marc:And it's something I sought out.
Marc:And it is just something near and dear to my heart.
Marc:Because these two guys were in my life for so long.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, yes, they were, you know, talking about movies, but they also showed clips of movies, which was super important because in those days, it wasn't a thing.
Guest:You saw commercials on TV and that was it.
Marc:You didn't get to see other movie clips unless you went to the movie.
Marc:And this was just like, oh, my God, I get to watch part of the movie on this show.
Marc:Sign me up.
Marc:And then these guys would talk and they would bicker and they would debate.
Marc:And it was glorious.
Marc:It was funny.
Marc:It was it was sometimes just like, holy shit, I can't believe he just said that to this guy.
Marc:And he's still just sitting there.
Marc:But yeah, it was just part of my childhood.
Marc:And I love these two men.
Guest:Yeah, well, I got brought to it by my dad, who was watching it when it was still on PBS.
Marc:Oh, no way, that early?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it was like a family thing.
Guest:We'd put it on the same way you'd put on the news.
Guest:Like, oh, it's time for sneak previews, and we'd watch the movie show.
Guest:And so I had it fully ingrained in my mind.
Guest:And then when they went to syndication...
Guest:So I was seeking it out wherever it was.
Guest:Cause that was like already my show.
Guest:Like I, it was a show I watched with my family and there was a great period of time where it was on after wrestling on the, on Saturday afternoon.
Guest:Like I would watch wrestling and then Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:I remember that vividly.
Guest:But yeah, it couldn't have shaped my life more.
Guest:Roger Ebert still continues to be a kind of lodestone for me, like someone who I consider a spiritual and mental guidepost for how I should...
Guest:live my life.
Guest:He's really one of the last great humanists, I believe.
Guest:And so, yes, the two of them mean a lot to me.
Guest:They both have meaning to me individually.
Guest:Obviously, Roger Moore, because he lived longer and his work output went on for a longer period of time.
Guest:But yeah, I'm right there with you.
Guest:Very important show for me.
Guest:So I devoured this book when I got it.
Guest:And I definitely wanted to talk to Matt Singer, who is as much a fan as we are, but actually wound up going on and doing something with his life related to Siskel and Ebert, related to reviewing movies.
Guest:So this is Matt Singer, who, like I said, just wrote the book Opposable Thumbs.
Guest:It comes out next week.
Guest:You can preorder it now, get it wherever you get books.
Guest:If you're a Siskel and Ebert fan, I guarantee you're going to like it.
Guest:If you're not a Siskel and Ebert fan, I guarantee you're going to learn from it.
Guest:And I hope you learn something right now as Chris and I talk to Matt Singer.
Guest:We've crossed paths with you before, but I'm not sure that you have any idea that we did because it was digital and conceivably anonymous.
Guest:But we knew that you were there and it was part of Nighthawk Movie Trivia, which we do regularly.
Guest:And so there was one night where we were, I think you might have made mention of it like on your Twitter or something.
Guest:And we're like, oh, Matt Singer, we're up against him tonight.
Guest:and you always like crushed us in per in person or no it was pandemic time yeah right right right yeah i haven't i i went once in person recently but yeah no yes did you have a regular team name or did you change yours so we were fairly regularly for for the initial days like initial weeks of the quarantine we were quarantine wolf two oh yeah yeah yeah i remember yeah
Guest:Awesome.
Guest:Like I was doing that with all my friends from grad school, basically all my movie nerd friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that, yeah, I used to love doing it.
Guest:It was one of the few enjoyable things one could do at that time.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It was like a salvation.
Guest:We like looked forward to it.
Guest:It was like our one night out, even though it was in.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it gave me an excuse to hang out with, you know, most of those, those people don't live in New York anymore.
Guest:So it was like the most I had talked to those people for years.
Guest:So.
Guest:Well, I'm not surprised that we found ourselves in that similar circle, not just because we know similar people, we have common friends, we have common interests.
Guest:But obviously, I think we're all from the same age cohort.
Guest:And you have written this book.
Guest:That where I'd have any talent as a writer, it probably would have been the first thing I would have tried to write to was a book about Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:And in fact, when I started reading it, I sent Chris a text.
Guest:I was maybe about 10 pages in.
Guest:And I just said, I'm going to cry reading this fucking book.
Guest:I love these guys with all my heart.
Marc:And sure enough, we both cried.
Marc:Hey, spoiler alert.
Marc:Did I do it?
Guest:Oh, of course.
Guest:I mean, I would be very disappointed if you didn't.
Guest:And it'd be hard-pressed not to cry about any retelling of the final days of Gene and Roger.
Guest:But what I was also thinking about when I sent that to Chris was like...
Guest:Why?
Guest:Like, why?
Guest:And why?
Guest:Like, we're in our 40s now.
Guest:I constantly rewatch these clips, rewatch entire shows of Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:I reread Roger.
Guest:Chris and I were just talking about this like two weeks ago.
Guest:We were talking about how, you know, we watched a bunch of Arnold movies.
Guest:And then when we read all the Roger reviews of these movies and
Guest:and it was so fulfilling right and i seek out things like your book like the ringer did a podcast on gene and roger and obviously i read and seen uh life itself and so like i come up with this question why do i love these guys so much and i guess the first thing to ask you is did you already have a solid answer to that or is part of writing the book you trying to answer that question too
Guest:Well, first of all, I just we got I want to hear about the Arnold movies.
Guest:Can we put a pin in that for later?
Guest:I want to know because you're talking to you're talking to maybe the only I sometimes call myself a Schwarzeneggerologist, perhaps the only one on Earth.
Guest:And, you know, if I could write a book about that, I probably would.
Guest:So we got to talk about that at some point, not to not answer your question.
Guest:The second way I'm going to avoid answering your question is just to say my wife – the only person who read this book while I was working on it is my wife.
Guest:And I would give her chapters and say, how is this?
Guest:How is this?
Guest:And she is not a movie nerd.
Guest:She likes movies, but she's not pathetic like I and perhaps you guys are.
Guest:And when I gave her that part, like I walked in and she was like – when she finished it, she was like crying and she's like, you son of a –
Guest:Like, how could you make me read this?
Guest:It's really upsetting.
Guest:Are you talking specifically about the chapter of Gene's death?
Guest:Yeah, the stuff about Gene.
Guest:And, you know, I got to do the audio book myself for the book, which I wanted to do and was super fun for the most part.
Guest:But then reading that part, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It can get a little a little heavy in terms of your actual question of why I like these guys.
Guest:Yeah, I I did think a lot about that because the show hit me at an age where I never I was too young to intellectualize the why because I'm talking I'm 12, I'm 13.
Guest:And most of the stuff I'm liking is not two dudes, two middle-aged dudes in blazers and sweaters sitting in a movie theater talking about movies.
Guest:And I was, at that time, I was not...
Guest:The biggest movie nerd, you know, I went to movies.
Guest:I watched what was playing.
Guest:I grew up in suburban New Jersey.
Guest:So it's like, you know, if something I was playing, a dumb comedy was playing at the Freehold Metroplex or Movie City Five, you know, I would ask, you know, like...
Guest:Weird Al Yankovic has a movie, Mom.
Guest:Can you please take me to see UHF?
Guest:Spaceballs.
Guest:I liked Spaceballs more than Star Wars, frankly, when I was a kid.
Guest:I'm going to be honest.
Guest:I think a lot of people don't want to admit that, but I definitely did.
Guest:And really, until I discovered Siskel and Ebert, that was the kind of movies that I was into.
Guest:And it really was this show that was like the the lightning bulb of like, oh, there are more movies out there than dumb, silly comedies, which I still love.
Guest:Don't get me wrong.
Guest:And the why is an internal question.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think – I do wonder to some extent now whether it was in some ways because I was joking about the sweater vests and the blazers.
Guest:And the fact that, frankly, let's be honest, these were not the coolest dudes in the universe.
Guest:But I think in some way that appealed to me because even at that age, I knew I was not cool.
Guest:I was not going to be the star football player.
Guest:I was not going to be a movie star.
Guest:I think I understood that innately even at that age.
Guest:And I think there was something appealing about the –
Guest:The ordinariness of these guys, at least the way they presented themselves on TV, they were amazing talkers and they were great TV presences, but there was something attainable about what they were doing.
Guest:They were watching movies and they were talking about them.
Guest:And I think that...
Guest:And really grabbed me and hooked me at that young age.
Guest:I kind of have the same feeling you did about, you know, they don't seem cool.
Guest:But then when you got into them, to me anyway, they were cool.
Guest:You've met Roger Ebert later in his life.
Guest:If I ever had been in that guy's presence, I would have...
Guest:like crumbled, like a fan boy.
Guest:Like I would, I've never had that experience really in front of anyone famous.
Guest:And I definitely would have in front of him.
Guest:I wouldn't have been able to say anything.
Guest:I was paralyzed with fear to ever send anything to the movie answer man page.
Guest:I was always afraid of that, you know?
Guest:Yeah, no, I did that.
Guest:I got in twice, I think to the movie answer man, you know?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can find them.
Guest:I think if you, I mean, now it might be tougher, but I think, I mean, I'm,
Guest:I don't know if I was ever in one – I mean, first of all, I had the Questions for the Movie Answer Man book.
Guest:That was one of my favorite Roger Ebert books as a kid.
Guest:Yes, I did write in several times and I believe – definitely once, maybe twice I got a question answered.
Guest:And I think they may have been reprinted in like –
Guest:You know, like he always put out the movie yearbook.
Guest:Right, and he'd have a few questions in it.
Guest:And he would compile some of those movie Answer Man columns in there.
Guest:And I believe one of them might have been in one of those books somewhere, maybe in my parents' house somewhere.
Guest:I think I have that book.
Guest:But that was very thrilling for sure.
Guest:I would have been completely envious of you if I knew that.
Guest:I will say –
Guest:I will say this.
Guest:You mentioned, you know, that I did meet him and I did get to work with him when I was when he was older and I was, you know, sort of starting out and stuff.
Guest:But I had met him before that.
Guest:I had met him at a at a book signing.
Guest:In like 2005.
Guest:And you talk about not being able to.
Guest:You think you would not be able to speak.
Guest:I. That was me.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And I can remember.
Guest:He did a book signing for the great movies to another one of his books here in New York.
Guest:It was at the.
Guest:doesn't exist anymore was the barnes and noble by lincoln center oh yeah he did a talk he did he did a talk and then you got your book signed and i remember waiting and going on the line and uh being like it was the full chris farley show moment you know you know you remember when you did this i like that show a lot and i i really wanted to be a film critic and i say it's
Guest:And I just remember – I feel like the response I got was something – he's very smiley and friendly and nodding and saying something along the lines, well, good luck to you, something like that.
Guest:But it really was that sort of vibe.
Guest:When I met him again professionally, it did go a little – it went better than that, thankfully.
Guest:But yes, I can completely relate to that feeling of –
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:They were they were inspirational figures in my life.
Guest:I don't know if I ever thought if I could be them, I could be cool because I mean, you know, this was not the show for me that I would talk like, you know, sure.
Guest:When I was that age, I also watched Seinfeld and The Simpsons and you would have friends that you would like quote those things with, you know, like did like the day after the new Simpsons episode, you know, you'd be at.
Guest:At lunchtime, you'd be quoting.
Guest:Did you remember that line?
Guest:That was a great part.
Guest:Didn't do that with Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:I kind of kept this one close to my vest.
Guest:I wasn't really going, did you guys see the review of Independence Day?
Guest:Could you believe that?
Guest:That was wild.
Guest:That, I did not do.
Guest:This was kind of like...
Guest:This is one of those things that was kind of my secret, you know what I mean?
Guest:But what's great now is getting to talk to guys like you and writing the book.
Guest:It's like I'm realizing that this secret thing that I was obsessed with is something that a lot of people of our age share.
Guest:Now, were you always consistently one guy over the other?
Guest:Like, did you like, were you like, you know, people are either like a John guy or a Paul guy.
Guest:Were you a Roger guy?
Guest:Like, I mean, I can say just personally, there were different times in my life where I was a different one of them or like a related more to one over the other.
Guest:Whereas now in my like, you know, I would say the last maybe 20 years of life, I think I've pretty consistently been a Roger guy.
Guest:And that might owe more to his longer body of work as he lived on.
Guest:But there were definitely points in my life where I was like, man, Gene's always right.
Guest:Roger's always wrong.
Guest:Did you have a similar thing?
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:Definitely what you're saying about being a Roger guy later is true.
Guest:And it was certainly true for me because after being obsessed with the show –
Guest:And then buying some of those books, which you could get.
Guest:Then in the late 90s, I go to college, and that's – the internet finally really hits.
Guest:And Roger's reviews start going up weekly on chicagosuntimes.com or whatever the website was.
Guest:And now every Friday, I'm reading his reviews.
Guest:And unfortunately, Gene's already passed away by this point.
Guest:So that's really when I become like a mega –
Guest:the pathetic Roger fan who goes to the book signing and is that guy, because I was, you know, now fanatically, you know, I had already been a fan of the show, but now is really becoming a fan of his, his writing during the time when I was a kid watching the show.
Guest:I,
Guest:I don't know that I necessarily had a favorite.
Guest:What I liked about it was that they felt like equals to me.
Guest:They never felt like one was getting the better of the other.
Guest:It always felt to me like this epic struggle between these two titans.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It wasn't like one ever said...
Guest:You got me there, Raj.
Guest:I feel you make a good point.
Guest:You never heard the phrase you make a good point on Siskel and Ebert, even when both of them often did make good points.
Guest:They refused to concede that at any point anyone but them made a good point.
Guest:In all the years of the show, I think there's one example of Gene changing his mind on the air for a movie, the John Travolta action movie Broken Arrow.
Guest:You know, he gave it like a very mild, positive review.
Guest:Roger rebuts and says, yeah, I think pretty much what you said is true, except I don't think it's very good.
Guest:And, you know, this was even worse than you said.
Guest:And I didn't really care for this.
Guest:And Gene goes like, you know what?
Guest:I've never done this.
Guest:And he never had.
Guest:And he never would again.
Guest:He's like, I'm going to twist the thumb down.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:What am I praising here?
Guest:It's not really that good.
Guest:Thumbs down.
Guest:It's so funny because reading it in the book, it was like somebody writing about the helmet catch in the Super Bowl.
Guest:I was like, I remember when that happened.
Guest:Like I had like this vivid memory of the, the graphic of the thumb being turned downward on screen.
Guest:Like I'm like sitting there with my dad watching it.
Guest:Like, Whoa, did you see what just happened?
Marc:It was, it was like, it was almost as if a Hulk Hogan had just picked up Andre the Giant, honestly.
Guest:And then, of course, because Gene could not because, I mean, theoretically, this is a victory for Roger and has never happened.
Guest:And he could not let that stand.
Guest:He tried in that moment.
Guest:He was like, now, OK, now do me a favor.
Guest:Admit that you were wrong about cop and a half.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a movie that famously Roger had given thumbs up to and liked and he wouldn't do it.
Guest:Roger was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:I saw things and cop and a half the Burt Reynolds comedy cop and a half that other people didn't see.
Guest:So and so there you go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, they they would they fought and argued, but it was it was this neither one would budge.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I think that's what I really loved about it is that.
Guest:They were so, so dogged in their opinions.
Guest:And you never knew who you were going to agree with.
Guest:I guess to your point is that maybe sometimes you would be like, yeah, I kind of feel Gene is right.
Guest:Or sometimes you might go, yeah, I think Roger has a good point there.
Guest:Not that they would ever admit that the other had a good point.
Guest:But yeah, I think that's what I really responded to when I was watching it was that they always felt like they were so evenly matched and neither one would give an inch to the other.
Guest:That was part of the appeal.
Guest:Well, we started this out by talking about this trivia league that we were playing in over the pandemic.
Guest:And you were saying how you were teamed up with people you were friends with from grad school.
Guest:And there was a line that jumped out at me in the book.
Guest:It was specifically around you talking about the debate over what they were doing to critical discourse, right?
Guest:Specifically the TV show and the famous Richard Corliss article likening them to a sitcom and saying it was degrading film discourse.
Guest:You have a very simple kind of rebuttal.
Guest:I don't know if you intended to be a rebuttal, but it's like a one-line rebuttal to all that.
Guest:And it's like, this was people's first taste of film school.
Guest:And that got as close, I think, as I'd ever gotten to the question of the why in there was like...
Guest:This is the only non real life relationship I have with people, parasocial, whatever you want to call it.
Guest:But like the only relationship with people that I have not met flesh and blood that I feel the way I do about a kind of noble and life changing teacher.
Guest:They did the hard work of educating me to a point where I could change my viewpoint on things or I could adjust the prism by which I was seeing the world in a way that helped, that I thought that the best teachers can do.
Guest:If they say, just don't try to think about acing the test.
Guest:Just listen.
Guest:Listen to what I'm saying.
Guest:And I have to imagine, you know, feeling that way and then going to grad school and being a film scholar and now a person who makes his living writing about film and enjoying film.
Guest:And you have to more even more explicitly than I do draw the line to them in that way of of almost being, you know, an entry point into the discovery of film as an intellectual pursuit.
Guest:Oh, 100 percent.
Guest:I totally thought of them later in life.
Guest:And, you know, now think of them as, yeah, I'm like my first film teachers, you know, not that they certainly didn't know it at the time.
Guest:But, yeah, I mean, when you're.
Guest:When you're young, it's so easy to be a gatekeeper and pushing people out of things.
Guest:And they were the gateway, not the gatekeepers.
Guest:I think they had this way of making...
Guest:films that could be very inaccessible, especially to a 13-year-old who doesn't know anything, feel very accessible.
Guest:They made you want to go out and see these movies, and they never made you feel like because you hadn't seen something by Fellini or Kurosawa or Renoir, whoever it was, that you were...
Guest:You were somehow lesser than.
Guest:They might think you're missing out and encourage you to go check it out.
Guest:But they made you want to do that.
Guest:They made you want to learn more.
Guest:They made these very potentially obtuse things seem within your grasp.
Guest:And, you know, I think they both were good at doing this.
Guest:But Roger, especially as a writer, something I always especially later when I got into his writing, it's sort of the thing that I'm always trying.
Guest:I don't know how often I succeed, but always trying to capture is the way that he could write about these movies in a way that made them.
Guest:field so accessible and he was that was really one of his great gifts as a writer was he was so good at that so yeah absolutely that that that was something that was so important and yeah when people um at the time were writing things about they were dumbing down film criticism and and that sort of thing like you know
Guest:Later, I would become a big fan of Film Comment, which was one of the magazines that was putting forward that argument.
Guest:I love Film Comment.
Guest:I wish it was – now it's – I guess it's still sort of around, but the magazine is not quite what it was.
Guest:And I love that stuff as well.
Guest:But I think there's so a place for something like Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:And it was this great – again, a great gateway for people who –
Guest:hadn't seen some of these movies, weren't as familiar, but interested.
Guest:It was this place where you could go and feel welcomed into that conversation, which is what I think so many people want, and certainly I did at that age.
Guest:But I think it was interesting that the...
Guest:your book kind of ends up in this spot of wondering where they would be today in the fractious media environment that we're in.
Guest:And I'm not going to spoil it for people.
Guest:I could read the book and hear what other people who knew and worked with Siskel and Ebert had to say about that and Matt's own conclusion about it.
Guest:But what I was thinking while I got to that part was like –
Guest:Whatever they would have been doing and whatever anyone else would have been doing to emulate what they've been doing, it was only these two guys, only at this one particular time and place, and only because of these circumstances that surrounded them that allowed it to happen.
Guest:And I think that's what the book really captures, almost chapter by chapter, is like...
Guest:Well, yeah, it was this, you know, amazing coincidence that these two guys were writing for rival papers and the rivalry was innate in them.
Guest:It's the amazing confluence of late night television needing, you know, kind of TV ready personalities that could come and do entertaining things and fill time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's how they built their celebrity.
Guest:And and and also just kind of like this.
Guest:book has a section that's almost an ode to television producers just how they are able to really uh whip this thing into shape and i love the the story about um nancy de los santos who basically says you guys just talk right like let's just have throw out the script and let's just have you talk because i can't tell you how many times as a producer i've been there
Guest:Right.
Guest:To be like, can we just have the guys who are talented at doing something?
Guest:Can we just have them do it and put all this other stuff to the side?
Guest:And then it winds up being successful.
Guest:And so I just it's also the rise of home video.
Guest:And there's just so much happening at the time to direct central attention to these two guys, these guys who, as Harry Dean Stanton said, should not be on TV anymore.
Guest:And here they are, and they have this floor, and I just don't think it could have ever happened before or again.
Guest:I think the book kind of stands as this documented capsule of, you know, here's a moment in time that was not going to be replicated.
Guest:Yeah, that sums it up, I think.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, this has been great.
Guest:Good night, everybody.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Guest:No, you're hitting on, yeah, a lot of the stuff that I feel about this subject, which is – you didn't quite ask this question, but I think it comes around to it, which is the question that I get a lot and thought a lot about writing the book, which is, well, why isn't – if this show was so great –
Guest:And the idea is so simple.
Guest:Why isn't there a Siskel and Ebert on television right now?
Guest:And there's a lot of reasons for it.
Guest:But I think one of the reasons is exactly what you said, which is it was the right time and the right place and the right guys.
Guest:And, you know, like and different reasons for each of those things.
Guest:Like, yes, it was the right time in that it was the mid 1970s, this time where American movies were at the center of the conversation, you know, coming at the tail end of the new Hollywood era.
Guest:going right into the early days of the blockbuster era.
Guest:So they've got great movies to talk about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the right place.
Guest:It's Chicago.
Guest:It's these two guys.
Guest:They have this heated rivalry.
Guest:They do not like each other, but they're, you know, in such close proximity and they figure out a way to,
Guest:As you said, through the help of producers like Nancy De Los Santos, they figure out a way to take the off-screen kind of animosity and rivalry and turn it into something really valuable that works on TV.
Guest:But that wasn't manufactured.
Guest:It was totally authentic.
Guest:And there have been people who have tried to do that, and it doesn't work.
Guest:You can't put two people together and say, OK, now you play Siskel and you play Ebert.
Guest:There was nothing about them.
Guest:They weren't playing anybody.
Guest:They were just being themselves.
Guest:And the more authentic they were, it worked.
Guest:And in the beginning, actually, when they were kind of trying to make it a little more rehearsed,
Guest:it was forced and they couldn't do it.
Guest:All they could do was be themselves.
Guest:And when they kind of got to that authentic core of themselves, that's when it started to work.
Guest:And then, yeah, and the TV industry has changed so much since then.
Guest:And now we have this world where, I mean, it kind of feels to me like everybody is yelling on television about everything but movies now.
Guest:So there's less of a demand for the sort of
Guest:frank, honest, fun, entertaining, lively debate that they brought at the time was very rare on TV.
Guest:Now, if you don't care as much about movies, but you want to hear people debating, you can find people doing that.
Guest:It just won't be about movies, right?
Guest:And then we have – technology has evolved where we live in a world where we can have a podcast.
Guest:Anyone can have a podcast.
Guest:That sense of the democratization of criticism that they kind of brought where it wasn't just one –
Guest:person sitting and very stiffly telling you what they thought about a movie and here is when it is playing and this is what it is they had that conversation you know they inherently made it uh about whether they ever talked about it you know whether you thought about it like they were kind of subliminally telling you there's there's no one set opinion about anything we're
Guest:there's two people here and they're going to often disagree.
Guest:They may think a movie is good and disagree about why it is good or why it is bad.
Guest:You know, they could, some of their best disagreements were about movies.
Guest:They, they both, they gave two thumbs up to or two thumbs down, but they fought about why.
Guest:So the, the show kind of implicitly gave people the, the permission to feel that way about any movie or any work of art, I suppose.
Guest:And so, yeah, it kind of,
Guest:That idea germinated through people like me and made it – again, getting back to that idea of them being kind of this gateway.
Guest:Yeah, made it okay to have our own opinions about movies and to care about them passionately and write about them, think about them.
Guest:But it is interesting now to look back on how different things are from then.
Guest:But then in some ways that some things don't change.
Guest:You know, one of the things that I loved about doing the book was watching all these episodes and seeing sometimes how arguments they were having about theaters, going to theaters versus VHS sound exactly like the arguments people have today about going to the theater versus watching something on streaming.
Guest:So things change, but in some ways they don't also.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, your book, very well researched.
Marc:You really comb the fucking desert for anything having to do with Cisco and Ebert.
Marc:One of my favorite chapters, I think, is chapter five, where you basically chronicle Gene and Roger making the rounds of various late night talk shows.
Marc:I knew of them on Letterman, but I actually never knew the story of them being on the Johnny Carson Tonight Show.
Marc:And the behind the scenes story of what happened there is honestly probably my favorite story in your entire book.
Marc:But, you know, I know from the book that you used to stay up and watch Siskel and Ebert, the show, once your family fell asleep when you were a kid.
Marc:But did you ever watch or even know about them doing these late night shows?
Marc:Or is that something that was revealed later on in your life?
Guest:No, I definitely were watching because around this age was also when I discovered, yeah, like late night TV.
Guest:Letterman was always my favorite and Conan.
Guest:They did Conan, too, although I think their most memorable appearances are more like Letterman and Carson.
Guest:But I was a huge Conan O'Brien fan growing up.
Guest:And which is, you know, that's right around that same time, that early 90s period is where I would, you know, stay up and watch Letterman and then and then Conan.
Guest:But, yeah, I would I would say that it all kind of coincided and I would always get excited when they were on those shows.
Guest:And I do think those shows were instrumental in helping them become popular.
Guest:bigger tv stars and establishing them beyond the boundaries of the community of dweebs like me who are watching the show um because it was it was bringing them to a more mainstream a broader audience it was
Guest:It was having them sit next to the people that they were reviewing these movies of and kind of putting them on equal star footing in a way because Chevy Chase would come out and promote three amigos.
Guest:And then Siskel and Ebert would come out and they would bash three amigos while Chevy Chase is still sitting there.
Guest:And I think that was a huge boost.
Guest:boon to them and to the show because you know that that talk show world while it can be very entertaining and amusing like there's a certain amount of like phoniness or like just smiliness that's baked into that world where everyone is happy everyone's cracking jokes having a good time isn't it fun to be here and isn't the movie i just made the best movie ever made let's show the clip and
Guest:And it looks great.
Guest:And it's coming out on Friday.
Guest:Thanks for coming, Chevy.
Guest:That kind of atmosphere.
Guest:And then they would come out next and be like, actually, Three Amigos is not a good movie.
Guest:You should not go see it.
Guest:Sorry, Chevy.
Guest:You've made good movies before.
Guest:You'll make good movies again.
Guest:But this one isn't one of them.
Guest:And they were one of the few people who would do that on these shows.
Guest:They were honest.
Guest:They cut through the BS.
Guest:They told it like it was.
Guest:And it reinforced that idea that I certainly believed then and now that
Guest:Whenever you heard their opinion, they were going to tell you what they thought.
Guest:And they weren't going to say anything because they wanted to make a star happy or a studio happy or a publicist asked them to be nice.
Guest:They didn't care what anyone thought.
Guest:They were going to give you their opinion.
Guest:And if that meant saying it to the face of the star, you know, I think Gene especially kind of relished that.
Guest:That he he was a he could be a confrontational guy at times, and he didn't mind saying to someone's face, you know, your new movie isn't so great.
Guest:Why aren't you making movies as good as you used to make?
Guest:Yeah, it seemed almost pathological for him that he could not.
Guest:say something that was dishonest or he couldn't, you know, be diplomatic.
Guest:He had to say exactly what he felt, whether that was to a movie star or to his boss or anybody.
Guest:You point out at one point in the book that Roger says like, yeah, Gene doesn't care if people like him or not.
Guest:I think to right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, that is now again, in some situations, maybe that's not a good thing.
Guest:for a film critic, that's one of the best qualities you can have.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Because, and I say this from experience, you know, people, you want people to like you.
Guest:That's like a natural thing for most people is you don't, you know, you're not, you know, you want to have your opinion, but you're also not, I mean, you're not necessarily looking to make people angry or dislike you.
Guest:And he didn't care.
Guest:And he, you know, and it didn't matter who it was.
Guest:It could be his favorite director.
Guest:If he thought Martin Scorsese made a bad movie,
Guest:He would say that they gave two thumbs down to The Color of Money, which I think is a great movie, but they were unimpressed and they didn't like it, even though they thought, you know, they later gave Raging Bull, you know, they call that the best movie of the 80s and they loved Goodfellas and so many other Scorsese movies.
Guest:I think Gene didn't like Casino.
Guest:He didn't.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:He gave thumbs down.
Guest:Another amazing movie.
Guest:But I think that speaks to the fact that he didn't grade on a curve.
Guest:It didn't matter that he loved Scorsese and maybe he socialized with him or they wrote a book that the proceeds went to Scorsese's Film Foundation.
Guest:The only book that they ever wrote together, in fact.
Guest:But if if if Scorsese's new movie is a stinker, according to him, he's going to say that.
Guest:And I think that that was it was great to do that as a film critic.
Guest:It was great for the show.
Guest:And again, it was amazing to see on talk shows because, again, talk shows.
Guest:Like I said, I was a huge Conan fan and Letterman fan.
Guest:Those shows were great.
Guest:But what they brought to those shows that they didn't always otherwise have was drama and tension.
Guest:You know, people are there to have fun and smile and be happy.
Guest:And when they showed up, you didn't know what was going to happen.
Guest:Maybe they were going to insult someone to their face.
Guest:Maybe they were going to piss someone off.
Guest:And just that little bit of suspense and edge gave a little zing to those shows when they were on them.
Guest:Well, Chris said that that was his favorite chapter in the book.
Guest:I have my own favorite chapter, and I'll tell you what it is, and then I'm going to say what I think you thought about it, Matt.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm probably projecting here, so you tell me whether I'm right or wrong.
Guest:My favorite chapter was seven, which was largely about the arguments that they have.
Guest:And you spent a good deal of time, I would use the word, relishing in the... Luxuriating would maybe even be a better word.
Guest:In the arguments around some of the films.
Guest:Some of the kind of more famous arguments they had.
Guest:Cop and a Half, as you mentioned.
Guest:Benji the Hunted.
Guest:Full Metal Jacket.
Guest:You're not just putting transcripts in there.
Guest:You're doing a blow-by-blow.
Guest:You're kind of telling your own narrative story.
Guest:It's almost like this mini-story about the tension around these specific movies and how this argument played out.
Guest:And the other section I noticed this happening in the book was...
Guest:was in the section where you're giving Rogers rules for doing the show.
Guest:And you're, you're recapping that, that viral promo outtake, which I probably like you have watched a thousand times.
Guest:And you're, you're, you're kind of poetically describing this, this now for people like us, this, this famous beloved clip that we know by heart.
Guest:And I couldn't help think that this was like, um,
Guest:To bring everything together here, when I go back to that question of the why do I love these guys, something else that Chris and I do on this Friday show, we talk about wrestling a lot.
Guest:And one of the things I love when we do about wrestling is we find like an old match or an old pay-per-view or something, and we just talk about it.
Guest:And we're not just talking about, oh, then Hulk Hogan leg dropped this guy.
Guest:We're talking about all the stuff behind it and the small moments, the absurdities.
Guest:You know, there'd be no reason to talk about The Undertaker versus The Undertaker other than if you had some passion behind it.
Guest:What was the enjoyment of this terrible match?
Guest:And we were really just enjoying our own company sitting here talking about it.
Guest:And I'm reading this section of your book and I'm like, oh, he loves this.
Guest:Matt Singer loves this.
Guest:He loves the arguments that these guys got in there as close to him as his family members.
Guest:And I can't help but think that this is the reason we all...
Guest:Why am I going to YouTube and watching clips of Siskel and Ebert when I'm looking for something to do to procrastinate?
Guest:Why do I watch clips of old wrestling in that?
Guest:It's not this nostalgia purpose, which it serves that too, but it's also like a reinforcement of things that were foundational for me in life.
Guest:Like, yes, I built my intellect around listening to these guys talk about a Benji movie.
Guest:And like, I want to revisit it, not just because it makes me feel good to revisit it, because it reinforces to me, I'm okay with where I got, who I am, why I'm there now.
Guest:And I really felt that reading the chapter of your book about their arguments.
Guest:But I really wonder if you have a similar sense around that for how it makes you feel.
Guest:I mean, I'm really happy to hear you say that you could feel the love of the show coming through because certainly that is there.
Guest:And I was absolutely trying, hopefully.
Guest:If I didn't convey that in the book at all, I definitely did not do my job.
Yeah.
Guest:Because this show really does mean a lot to me.
Guest:I mean, and I would not be doing what I do without it.
Guest:I mean, I told someone else this recently.
Guest:And I hadn't really thought about it until doing things like this where I'm now reckoning with my life and my choices.
Guest:It's like this is like my Gwyneth Paltrow sliding doors.
Guest:It's like if I don't find this show, where do I wind up?
Guest:And so, yes, writing that part or those parts in particular –
Guest:I mean, on the one hand, there's a practical reason, which is theoretically, if you want to watch those clips, you can find them.
Guest:And so I've got to give you some added value.
Guest:If they're just transcripts, you know, what are we doing here?
Guest:You can go watch them.
Guest:My goal was sort of to...
Guest:Make you want to go find them that hopefully I have painted the picture so vividly that you are inspired to go down that YouTube rabbit hole with Siskel and Ebert, which I have done so many times before, during and surely after the book, because it's one of the best YouTube rabbit holes is to just like follow them and see where it takes you.
Marc:Yeah, I highly recommend reading this book on a plane where you don't have internet access because all I wanted to do was just YouTube every single review that you mentioned.
Marc:For sure.
Guest:Yeah, but it does absolutely mean the world to me.
Guest:And I absolutely do have this love for the show.
Guest:And so –
Guest:the whole point of the book was yes to, to capture that.
Guest:And I really felt like, you know, yes, I, the arguments were important and, um,
Guest:The famous – the stories, the backstage stories were important for sure because that's a huge part of their story.
Guest:But the other thing that was really important to me was like trying – like you talked about the part about writing a review.
Guest:There's a whole chapter about basically like the formula, if there was a formula, like the –
Guest:the guide that Roger gave in later years to people, like if they were going to be a guest host on the show, here's how to do it.
Guest:You know, like, here's how you want to write it.
Guest:And then I, there's examples of each one, like, because to me, this show was the thing that, like we said, like my first teachers, like this was like,
Guest:how I became interested in it.
Guest:And so I really wanted the book.
Guest:If someone's coming to it, if they're looking for it to hopefully inspire them a little bit and put a little of the film criticism that I was so inspired by into the book, there's an appendix of movies, like kind of,
Guest:Buried treasures that that they really liked on the show that even I was sort of unaware of or unfamiliar with before doing the research.
Guest:And the whole point was, yeah, let's let's get an old Ebert video companion into this book.
Guest:Let's capture the vibe of that, because if we're doing a book about film critics and it doesn't have some film criticism in it or at least film advocacy.
Guest:To me, it wouldn't work.
Guest:Like, yes, they were outrageous at times.
Guest:They had this crazy rivalry at times.
Guest:They fought all the stories about them.
Guest:They have this larger-than-life quality because they could bicker like children and fight and squabble.
Guest:But there's also this other side to it where they inspired people like me – it sounds like guys like you as well – to –
Guest:discover movies we never would have seen they they like ignited our interest in this whole art form and and talking about movies and art and whatever it is that we're wrestling i love wrestling too undertaker versus under faker we could talk about that all day long if you want as well
Guest:So, you know, that all kind of stems from that.
Guest:So absolutely, like the whole purpose of the book was hopefully to capture all of that and say, like, this is why this show mattered to me personally, but why it matters to me.
Guest:It should matter to you, the reader, even if you only are vaguely aware of the show or maybe you never even watched the show and are only familiar with the famous outtakes that have gone viral a million times.
Guest:Like, here's the show and here's why it mattered and continues to matter in some ways, even though it's been off the air now for 15 plus years.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, and you also did answer something I've always wondered because I have saved in my photo stream a picture of Roger and Gene doing the double thumbs up with Hulk Hogan right between them.
Guest:And I've always wondered, wait, where did this come from?
Guest:Like they definitely hate Hulk Hogan movies.
Guest:Like this wasn't like on a junket or something.
Guest:And there's a brief mention in the book that they were at the NAPI convention, the television syndication convention, and WWF was there putting on matches.
Guest:So I have to believe that was the meeting of Hulk Hogan and Siskel and Ebert.
Guest:100 percent.
Guest:And I don't I'd have to look in my notes.
Guest:But somewhere I found a video like a news report from NAPI, this yeah, the syndication convention, which
Guest:I think actually just within this year was maybe canceled permanently, possibly.
Guest:But until a few years ago when cable syndication was big, this was like, yeah, the big industry event.
Guest:Anyone who syndicated a TV show or wanted to, you show up here, you sell your wares like a trade show.
Guest:And for Siskel and Ebert, this was a huge thing.
Guest:And they would go and they would promote the show.
Guest:And yes, the WWF, because their product then was all syndicated Saturday morning syndicated TV, they would set up a ring.
Guest:And I found a clip of them like like doing like wrestling matches at one of these conventions.
Guest:And the audience of like 12 guys in suits is a little bewildered.
Guest:I can't remember any of the wrestlers that were in the clip.
Guest:But for sure, I guarantee you that is where that picture you're talking about of Hulk and Siskel and Ebert, which I think I have seen and is definitely a weird for me to like a moment of my childhood icons, like merging and meeting in this very strange and surreal way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Spider-Man could have been like could have wandered through the background.
Guest:It would have been like.
Guest:You know, if someone had, like, taken my brain and put it in a blender and poured it out onto a picture, it could have been, like, the ultimate, like, here's your personality in one picture.
Guest:Enjoy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I post it every New Year's, like, as a be good to each other message.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:That's my visual representation of it.
Guest:The spirit of the holidays, yes.
Guest:If they could get along with that man appearing in No Holds Barred and Mr. Nanny and Suburban Commando, there's hope for all of us, isn't there?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So do you see critics today being able to write or talk objectively and honestly about films like Gene and Roger used to?
Marc:Or have you seen a bit of erosion of church and state?
Marc:Cisco and Ebert cared about a moviegoer's time and money at a theater.
Marc:You write about that in your book.
Marc:And honestly, this is a big, big point that I feel is missing from most critics today.
Marc:They'll give a...
Marc:Modestly positive review for Asteroid City or Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny because their site is getting tons of money to promote it.
Marc:Do you see critics today being able to write, you know, honestly?
Guest:I think it depends on who you're looking at and who you're listening to or watching.
Guest:Sure, I do think there are people out there, and maybe they wouldn't even call themselves critics, but there's a lot of websites or YouTube channels or Instagram accounts or whatever that are not really so much there to really talk seriously and openly about movies.
Guest:They're kind of part of the machine of promotion.
Guest:Sure, I do think that exists.
Guest:But I also think there are great critics out there that –
Guest:do really right from the heart and from the mindset of I'm being honest and I don't care what anyone thinks, this is what I think, which is ultimately the real important role of any critic, whether that's Manola Dargis or...
Guest:I mean, I listen and read a lot of people, but Dana Stevens, Richard Brody, I mean, there are a lot of people out there that, you know, after we talk, we could exchange emails and I could send you some folks.
Guest:But I think where you see it more, and this is the part that bums me out as someone who works in this field, is that there is such an emphasis on, yeah, traffic and eyeballs and hits and views.
Guest:And where you see that even in...
Guest:from the people who care and are being honest is there are things that people don't cover that they would like to cover because they know if I cover this tiny movie from another country that doesn't have anyone famous in it,
Guest:I know that nobody is going to read it or it's not going to get the same readership as if I write about whatever the big movie is, Indiana Jones or Taylor Swift or whatever it is.
Guest:And I think it's, you know, again, you're talking to one of the disciples of Siskel and Ebert, so to speak.
Guest:I think there's a lot of value in reviewing a Taylor Swift movie or Indiana Jones.
Guest:But one of the great things about Siskel and Ebert was that show covered the big movies and the small movies.
Guest:You got every week you would see the biggest movie of the week and you would see three little movies that might not even play in your hometown.
Guest:And they really relished the opportunity to promote those little movies when they were good and encourage people to seek them out.
Guest:Again, there are places where you can find that, but it's – to me, my opinion, it's getting harder and harder to find those voices because everyone is so focused on –
Guest:Traffic and clicks and views.
Guest:And so that's where I worry is not so much people like like lying or even kind of shaping their opinion to make someone happy.
Guest:It's focusing on the things that are the biggest things, which I want to, you know.
Guest:In addition to Siskel and Ebert and wrestlers and Arnold Schwarzenegger, I grew up a huge comic book fan, and I love Marvel movies and comic books and all that stuff.
Guest:And I want to hear about them and watch them and think about them.
Guest:But that's not all I want to think about and talk about.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And so there's some places that –
Guest:You know, their focus gets narrower and narrower on the biggest and biggest things.
Guest:And if it was up to me and money was no object, I would love it if we could broaden what we're talking about and expand what we talk about.
Guest:And that's the part that I think is getting harder and that worries me and kind of bums me out is that the places to talk about the tiny movie that, you know, maybe not everyone has necessarily seen.
Guest:Those places are fewer and far between.
Guest:And those are the movies that sometimes are just as or the most valuable, and those are also the movies that could probably use the most support.
Guest:You know, the giant movies don't need film critics to get in front of millions of people.
Guest:But inevitably, those are the ones that are talked about because the biggest audience is interested in them.
Guest:So that's where I see that dilemma kind of most prominently.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, listen, before we lose you, let's let's wrap up with this Arnold thing, because, you know, we had Arnold on WTF last week.
Guest:And before that, to lead up to it, Chris and I were talking about our favorite Arnold movies and we did our favorite five.
Guest:And so to put you on the spot as the Arnold Schwarzenegger ecologist that you are, just give us your top line.
Guest:What's the best Arnold movie?
Guest:That's an impossible to answer question.
Guest:And you know that because there's so many good ones and they're good.
Guest:There are, but I will say it came pretty easy to me to get my best.
Guest:Really?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I said Total Recall was was my best.
Guest:That's a great movie.
Guest:I mean, that's definitely in the conversation.
Guest:I mean, to me, that's up there.
Guest:The Terminator Terminator 2 is up there.
Guest:But what I love about Schwarzenegger and that it was an awesome podcast and I have gotten to interview him now a few times.
Guest:And it's that's another one where you're fighting back the for me anyway, the whole the Chris Farley urge of you.
Yeah.
Guest:And like in that case, I'm like actually interviewing him about about Predator.
Guest:That was maybe Chris's number one, by the way.
Guest:Fabulous movie.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, to me, what's so interesting about Arnold is that, you know, and I've written pathetically at length about this is that to me, Arnold is like an unappreciated auteur.
Guest:of his movies.
Guest:He doesn't... Yes, I think now he gets his due as an action star who made very entertaining movies.
Guest:I think at this point, that's pretty much agreed on.
Guest:And we all love Terminator 2, and we love Predator and Commando and all those movies.
Guest:But what I love is that you watch his movies...
Guest:And you see this guy talking about his life in these in these ways that maybe people didn't really notice at the time.
Guest:You look at how many movies are about husbands who are screwing up their marriages or that are feeling guilty about having failed their wives or their children, especially in that later period, right after things are happening in his personal life that might reflect that.
Guest:Almost every movie he made after that like period is about that in some way.
Guest:And and and maybe they're the quote unquote bad movies, you know, like Batman and Robin is about a husband who's trying to help his wife and has failed repeatedly.
Guest:And now he's this cold, icy figure.
Guest:No pun intended, except I definitely intended it.
Guest:There were lots of puns.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Every pun was intended or or end of days.
Guest:He's a husband who's lost his family and he's like grappling with the guilt around that or collateral damage where he's a guy whose family has been killed by a terrorist and he's seeking revenge or Maggie, which is about a guy who is debating how to deal with his daughter and feels guilty about it.
Guest:And I could go on and I have gone on.
Guest:I mean, if you Google my name and Arnold Schwarzenegger, you will find the pieces I've written about this.
Guest:So, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, if I had to pick one movie, I probably would pick Terminator 2 or maybe Total Recall.
Guest:But I just think that he, you know, and Stallone is kind of this way, too.
Guest:And I've written about that as well.
Guest:But I just love that you can kind of...
Guest:We talk about auteurs.
Guest:To me, they're like the actors.
Guest:These are the guys who had so much power.
Guest:They were the ones picking the scripts, and they were the ones often picking the directors and producing their movies or at least had the juice to...
Guest:what they decided was going with these movies so these aren't like coincidences you know what i mean right so that's what i love about about arnold is that if you know his biography that makes his movies uh even more interesting total recall is a good example too i mean last action hero is another good example true lies i mean if that's not a movie about
Guest:secrets in a marriage, then there's never been a movie made about secrets in a marriage ever.
Guest:So that's the that's the stuff that I really, really love about Arnold.
Guest:Well, I do hope that people who well, obviously, people who are fans of Siskel and Ebert and and have kind of loved movies and love the way movies have been reviewed.
Guest:since Siskel and Eber was a show, are going to find innumerable things about your book to enjoy.
Guest:But I really do hope people who are younger than that era or maybe just didn't pay it much mind, I really hope they get a hold of your book, and I think it will...
Guest:open their eyes to something and, you know, it becomes the gateway in itself.
Guest:Like, I'm envious of someone who gets to come to Siskel and Ebert with fresh eyes and kind of start on their own path with them.
Guest:So, you know, on that level, I think the book would be a tremendous success just for newbies as well.
Guest:But obviously,
Guest:For someone like me, someone like Chris, and obviously someone like yourself, Matt, this is right in the wheelhouse.
Guest:And I'm envious of you that you got to write it, but I'm very happy that you did because you made something that was tremendously satisfying, especially for fans.
Guest:So thank you so much for doing it.
Guest:Thank you so much for doing this with us.
Guest:I would like to put you on the spot with one final thing, because at the end of most episodes of this show, again, in the benefit of people who might not be into this, we identify, Chris and myself identify, the best thing we saw in wrestling in the past week.
Guest:Uh, and, and we put a link in the show description and people who maybe aren't into wrestling can go find something new, a Brian Danielson match or, or, you know, a great promo or something.
Guest:And so I'm going to have Matt Singer give his, it doesn't have to be in the last week.
Guest:What is, uh, your favorite wrestling thing recently?
Guest:Best moment, best match, best interview.
Guest:What's striking your fancy?
Guest:This is the most important question you've asked, because I never get to talk about wrestling except on the group text with my two wrestling buddies.
Guest:Shout out to Robin and Brandon, my wrestling group chat.
Guest:I don't know, like...
Guest:I mean, I watched Dynamite last night as we were talking.
Guest:I thought it was a pretty good episode.
Guest:I'm trying to think what was the highlight.
Guest:Was it Kenny Omega and Kyle Fletcher?
Guest:That was a really good match.
Guest:That was my highlight for sure.
Guest:That was a very good match.
Guest:In fact, why don't we just do it right now?
Guest:can bypass this at the end, Chris, because this was going to be mine.
Guest:I was going to say the best thing in wrestling this week was Kenny Omega having a match on TV.
Guest:And much like these recent Danielson matches that have been on Collision and on the pay-per-views, I feel blessed that we're living through this.
Guest:These are artists of the highest order.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I got to, I was, I went to the, the best live wrestling show I've been to in the last few years was the first one at the first Grand Slam, right?
Guest:Yes, I was there.
Guest:And that was that match between Omega and Danielson.
Guest:I mean, that was incredible.
Guest:Just absolutely electric.
Guest:One of the best matches I've ever seen live.
Guest:Probably one of two.
Guest:The other one would be, I was at...
Guest:NXT takeover with Bailey and Sasha, the Brooklyn one.
Guest:Yeah, that was, yeah, that was, that has, that has yet to be topped in my mind in terms of a live experience, like the, Oh wow.
Guest:The, the match combined with the audiences, sort of the engagement of the live crowd with what was happening in the ring.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:I'm talking about the crowd as if I was not personally invested in myself, but, but yes.
Guest:So, but, but yeah, the match this week was tremendous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:he's omega is great danielson is great i'm excited that um he's not edge he's adam adam copeland is on uh i'm really enjoying the christian storyline i think he's a fabulous heel oh yeah tony khan started following me on twitter randomly recently and so i i sent him a copy of my book he's
Marc:why not there you go talk about another guy in our cohort that's like a guy billionaire owner of a wrestling league who was you know posting on the wrestling observer message right 10 years that's right whatever excellent what about you chris you want to you want to throw yours out there my favorite thing i've seen uh recently it was the tuesday night war that happened uh i as as a veteran of the monday night wars i i felt uh i had some flashbacks uh but i think
Marc:I think, but I do feel like, uh, those, those two companies going at it, uh, for some reason they have to, uh, put, you know, WWE put on an all-star show, but I just think it made both shows better.
Marc:They, they put out, pull out all the stops for a, uh, for a Tuesday night event.
Marc:And, uh, I thought the, the dynamite that, that night, uh, was my favorite.
Marc:So, uh,
Guest:Oh, it was electric, that dynamite.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:To bring it back to Siskel and Ebert, Gene Siskel always said competition makes you better.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:I mean, that was a case in point, right?
Guest:Both of them, both of the shows like were jam packed with crazy matches and stars because they both wanted to to win.
Guest:So there you go.
Guest:And I'm sure that was what they were thinking when they did it.
Guest:You know, Gene Siskel.
Guest:would have wanted this.
Guest:He would have wanted us to compete in this way.
Guest:I don't think anybody in either wrestling promotion is as competitive as Gene Siskel was.
Guest:I don't want no part of that guy ever having a bet against me.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:Yeah, I would not want to...
Guest:This has been a pleasure.
Guest:I would not want to have been interviewed by Gene Siskel because he's going to ask you the hardest questions, the question you do not want asked.
Guest:He is going to ask you because he didn't.
Guest:And when you answered poorly, he's going to tell you you did.
Guest:Yeah, he was amazing.
Guest:Oh, man, he was good at it.
Guest:He was he was the best at that sort of interview, man.
Guest:Well, Matt, good luck with the book.
Guest:I know this is a big rollout and everybody that I know who loves movies is excited about this.
Guest:And really, again, I can't I can't say thank you enough, not just for being on the show, but for doing the book.
Guest:It's a great thing for longtime fans like us.
Guest:So Mazel Tov.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:No, it was a pleasure.
Guest:It was nice to talk about Siskel and Ebert with some fans, wrestling fans.
Guest:I feel like we probably could just keep talking.
Guest:I have this feeling.
Guest:We speak the same language.
Guest:It's very clear.
Guest:In many ways.
Guest:It's like a duolingo of a very certain type of media consumer.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, next time we're facing each other in trivia, we won't take it easy on.
Guest:Again, competition.
Guest:It's all about the competition.
Guest:That was a blast, Chris.
Guest:I'm so glad we did that.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:We talked to him for another about 20 minutes after we stopped the recording just about all these things that we share in common with him.
Guest:Our mutual friend, comic books, wrestling, baseball.
Guest:Yes, he's a Mets fan like us.
Guest:I said, okay, we're going to have to stop talking right now or else I'm going to find out that we're related.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Or they're like a clone.
Marc:He's a clone of us.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Did we break the simulation?
Guest:We're actually talking to us.
Guest:He's just the like multiverse version of you and me together.
Guest:So yes, that was a joy talking to him.
Guest:I really urge you to go get that book.
Guest:Order it now.
Guest:It comes out next week.
Guest:You'll have it delivered to you.
Guest:If you go pre-order it right now, Opposable Thumbs by Matt Singer.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And he, just like us, loves wrestling, which we will bring to you more next week when we're the week before Halloween.
Guest:And I wanted to watch one of the great bad matches of all time that took place during Halloween Havoc 91, the Chamber of Horrors match.
Guest:So if you would like to go watch that before Chris and I talk about it, it is on Peacock in the WCW section, Halloween Havoc 1991, the Chamber of Horrors.
Guest:It's as bad
Guest:bad as it sounds we will talk about that next week until then i'm brendan that's chris peace