BONUS Archive Deep Dive - Episode 200
Bye.
Guest:August 10th, 2011.
Guest:Do you have any memory of, like, 2011?
Guest:What your mindset was like back then?
Guest:Two years into us doing this?
Marc:I'm sure I was excited, but still filled with some degree of panic.
Marc:I feel like we were dug in at that point.
Marc:The garage was, you know, kind of organized.
Marc:Because I remember during the first year...
Marc:You know, I was just out there on a table, you know, for a lot of it with these mics on little stands that were not right for them, surrounded by regular garage garbage.
Marc:So I imagine I just remember sitting at that table with a MacBook.
Marc:And that little mixer from Air America that we used to use for the remotes that I still have as a collectible.
Marc:But I think by 2011, it had really taken shape by that point.
Marc:I think we might have had booms by then and everything.
Marc:So I felt dug in.
Marc:I felt confident.
Marc:I thought we were on a roll in that the medium of podcasting was a new and exciting thing that maybe we might be able to make
Marc:Living at Maybe.
Marc:Does that sound right?
Guest:It sounds right in terms of where I was thinking we were at as well.
Guest:Was that when the article came out?
Guest:Thought about that date.
Guest:No, the article came out in the beginning of that year.
Guest:So, you know, about eight months prior, January.
Guest:That was the New York Times.
Guest:We were riding high.
Guest:We were.
Guest:That's the interesting thing.
Guest:The reason why I brought up that specific date, August 10th, 2011, was that was when we posted our 200th episode, which I went back to listen to.
Guest:And it really surprised me that the perception of the show at that point, not just from us, but from past guests and clearly the listeners and in general, like the way it was viewed in the culture, was that it was a great success.
Guest:a great success.
Marc:It was probably, you know, more kind of culturally prominent because, you know, that was the beginning of the recognition of the medium of podcasting.
Guest:Yeah, the weird thing is it's like it's funny because I have all the numbers and I know what our numbers were like back then.
Guest:And, you know, obviously...
Guest:it was many fewer people listening to the show in 2011, but I do agree with you in a sense, like there was for us anyway, there was like more cultural momentum behind it.
Guest:I have to imagine it's probably similar to like how someone who's just kind of like popping on Tik TOK right now that you and I would have no idea who in the hell they are, but like they among their community must feel like a big star, you know, I feel like it's probably similar to that.
Marc:Also a smaller landscape.
Marc:We were still functioning as a community.
Marc:We all knew each other.
Marc:We were still doing each other's shows and in touch with many other podcasters at that time.
Marc:There was no way to really monetize effectively yet.
Marc:And I imagine that because of the attention we were getting from certain guests, that it was a big deal.
Guest:It was even more than that, just from particular guests.
Guest:It was from the community in general.
Guest:And I guess I should set up what the episode was.
Guest:And to help explain that a little bit, if you haven't heard episode 200, this was something we did, I think, because we felt like, hey, we made 200 of these.
Guest:There should be some type of celebration of it in some sense.
Guest:And a thing that people kept writing in over the first two years was
Guest:fans of the show would write in and say, Mark, when are you going to interview yourself?
Guest:And like, you know, we both acknowledge that that's kind of a silly conceit.
Guest:And frankly, you know, you do monologues on every show that's kind of already interviewing yourself in that regard.
Guest:But it came up that Mike Birbiglia, who had been on the show already, was asking if he could do another one.
Guest:And, you know, it's interesting.
Guest:His perception of why he wanted to do another one was that he felt like the initial episode that you guys did was like all about how you were squashing a beef, right?
Guest:Like it was like why you didn't like him and whether or not you could ever really like each other.
Guest:And he like wanted to come back and just talk about like comedy.
Guest:And I do find it very funny that essentially you're...
Guest:Your answer to him was like, no, but you can come back and talk about me.
Marc:And honestly, if I'm going to be honest, that was part of an ongoing Mike Birbiglia project, which was, can I possibly like this guy?
Guest:Yeah, that project failed.
Yeah.
Guest:It went on for a long time, though.
Guest:You tried.
Guest:You tried for several years.
Guest:I think he was on another couple of times, wasn't he?
Guest:Yeah, we had to scuttle that project.
Marc:Cut your losses.
Marc:He was willing to scuttle that project as well.
Guest:Yeah, I think there was a moment where you unfollowed him on all social media, and you told him.
Guest:You were like, hey, I have to not look at you anymore.
Marc:Look, you know, and it's like I know people are – and this happens all the time with this particular issue.
Marc:You know, for the people that know about it in terms of our listeners, you know, like why don't you like Mike?
Marc:Why – you know, he's a good guy.
Marc:You got – you know, he's a nice guy.
Marc:It's like I can't even explain that to you.
Marc:Like if you're going to tell me that in your life there aren't people that for some reason just crawl right up your ass –
Marc:then, you know, I think you're being disingenuous or maybe you're a bigger man than me.
Marc:I can't even explain it anymore.
Marc:Because even when I explain it, people are like, yeah, but I mean, aren't you being a little... I don't know what it is.
Marc:And there's no rule.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:If you go back and listen to that episode 200, I bet, especially listeners from today, could probably identify a little bit of what it is.
Guest:Because what I was hearing when I was listening to this was that in many ways, like...
Guest:Mike Birbiglia has your number.
Guest:And I think a big reason for that is that he was a huge fan.
Guest:He listened to all your albums.
Marc:Always a huge fan that I can't handle.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I think already there's a there's a wall there that you're like, why?
Guest:I don't like me as much as this guy likes me.
Guest:So what's his fucking problem?
Guest:Right.
Marc:There's that.
Marc:But there's also that, you know, the one thing that I am not and that I never will be is calculating in terms of how to manage a career.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, I just some of these young guys have it before they even start.
Marc:And it is part of the cultural landscape in terms of how people approach comedy and tick tock and the idea of monetizing content and all this stuff, branding, all that crap.
Marc:Before all that, there were just guys that were ambitious and looked at show business and said, well, here are the people that I need to align myself with, either peers or managers or publicists or agents or whatever.
Marc:This is where I need to get.
Marc:I'm just too – I'm not chaotic.
Marc:Maybe it comes from insecurity, but I don't have that kind of foresight.
Marc:So I find that even if someone's a fan, if they have a fundamental –
Marc:chart for how their ambition is going to get them to where they want to go, I find it annoying rather than respectable.
Marc:And I find it dubious.
Marc:And then if somebody can start to mold their character in order to get what they want out of the career that they've chosen in the arts and align themselves with the people they need to, I find it skeevy.
Guest:Right, but I think there's plenty of people that are like that, that you're able to just kind of, you know, you don't pay them any mind.
Guest:You mentally brush them off or whatever.
Marc:But oddly, it registers to me in a way.
Marc:Like, I can still feel it, though, yeah, either I don't mind or I understand it.
Marc:I understand that's how it works.
Marc:And I understand that I'm a little bit in the wrong.
Marc:There's no reason to, you know, not, you know, respect somebody or be rubbed the wrong way by somebody who's got a business plan.
Marc:You know, but like when I look at somebody like Nate Bargetsy is an interesting thing.
Marc:Like he was on SNL the other day, you know, and I still think that guy's funny.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:Honestly, I don't think he was the same way.
Marc:Like when he was a comic, he was a comic.
Marc:I remember when he was a pudgy, sweaty, drunky guy.
Marc:Oh, I think he was quite shocked that this all happened for him.
Marc:And I have more respect for that.
Marc:I was waiting for my big shock.
Marc:You know, when are people going to be shocked by my success?
Marc:And I think it was happening around the time.
Marc:It was then.
Marc:Yeah, because that's the thing.
Guest:So what Birbiglia wound up doing was soliciting questions from past guests and
Guest:And having them ask the questions, he would read them.
Guest:And it was interesting how almost everyone that he rattled off, like the person was like, you know, basically like, first of all, Mark, congrats on this thing.
Guest:Like, this is awesome.
Guest:And, you know, you've deserved it.
Guest:You know, it's like this feeling among your peers that you had made it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just want to get on record because, and I think it's important because I've been thinking about this recently, that there is not...
Marc:There is not not jealousy involved in my judgment.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Because of the way I perceive the success of whether it's Mike or it's Pete Holmes or it's this new guy, Alex Edelman.
Marc:There's a spectrum of of of this type of calculations that these guys make.
Marc:that I do think – I don't see my success properly.
Marc:So there are people that for some reason fit this type of person where I see their success as some direct indicator that I did something wrong as opposed to just be the person I am.
Guest:Well, and the funny thing is that –
Guest:I could understand why that would bother you.
Guest:And in certain cases with certain people who just do that and you see them doing it from afar, you develop that opinion about them.
Guest:But in other ways, you're just kind of leaving it alone.
Guest:You're just letting it happen.
Guest:You have this judgment.
Guest:It moves on.
Guest:Mike Birbiglia, you had that judgment, you had that perception, but then he's like a puppy.
Guest:He was always around.
Guest:He's rubbing against your leg.
Guest:He's like, please like me, please.
Guest:I like you.
Guest:Can you, can we like each other?
Guest:And all you want to do is kick this puppy across the room.
Guest:Like you want it to yelp as loud as I possibly can.
Marc:Yeah, but the puppy was also sort of, you know, kind of like, come on, like me.
Marc:And, you know, I have a movie coming out.
Marc:Is there any way that I can come on again?
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:Well, when he I will say for, you know, whatever your feelings and judgments are about Mike before that or after that, he did a great job with this episode.
Guest:He he he knew, like I said, right guy for the job.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And part of that was like he he had your number like there was this part where he you guys were talking about your general feeling about comics and how you know this thing that has come up all over and over again about how you don't like when you can't know a person.
Guest:who they are, even if they're like a hacky comic, if you feel like you know them from their, from their work, uh, that, that's, that helps you get somewhere with them.
Guest:If you don't feel like you can know them, it's a problem.
Guest:And where I can get is I can be open.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And what, what he said about, he's like, well, that's going to always be tricky with you because, uh,
Guest:There's no way to describe you other than Marc Maron.
Guest:And that's a hard thing to sell if you don't know Marc Maron.
Guest:And you kind of received that like, yeah, that's the whole problem, Mike.
Guest:What do you think I've been trying to struggle against for the last 20 years?
Marc:Yeah, it's very true.
Guest:But what also became very true in listening to this was like, man, it wasn't just success on the level of like, oh, you're doing this new thing in podcasting.
Guest:It's so stark what the comedy community was back then.
Guest:And that this show in those first like 200 episodes was like absolutely at the center of the comedy universe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He talks about how he and John Mulaney would just be walking around New York City talking about some particular episode.
Guest:It was so clear that this was operating as some roadmap and Bible, the same way that the Letterman show worked for people back in the 80s, late night or whatever, or Conan.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:It was this central hub for comedy at the time.
Guest:For the community.
Guest:the community right right which is is definitely not what my memory was i was similar to you like oh two years in yeah we were finding our footing and we were developing like no two years in this was episode 200 we were two years in and it was already a thing yeah and uh and that was that's very clear if you go back and listen to this
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think I ever like I still kind of get get that sense.
Marc:Now, there are some people in our world, in my world that are regular listeners and they have been for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Comics, actors, all these people.
Marc:And I don't know it.
Marc:Here's the thing about me.
Marc:Like, and I'm starting to realize recently is I need the feedback.
Marc:Yeah, I can't just take it for granted.
Marc:Look, you know, if especially if you're in my community, tell me that you listen every week.
Marc:It makes me feel better.
Marc:But yeah, but you're right.
Marc:You know, I don't think I knew that.
Marc:But I was always excited when people said that I listened to this or that or I didn't know this or that about that person or, you know, I'm friends with that guy.
Marc:And and I didn't even know that stuff.
Marc:I always liked that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, so like I said, Berbiglia reached out to past guests and asked them if they wanted to pose any questions to you since this was going to be an episode interviewing you.
Guest:And I figured let's just go through some of these questions that you were asked 12 years ago and see how you would answer them now.
Guest:Are you going to cross-reference?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:I mean, so the very first one was from Judd Apatow, who, you know, at the time was one of these guys we're talking about who listened to every episode.
Guest:I think Judd is still a listener to the show.
Guest:You know, chime in from time to time that he heard this or that.
Guest:And he had asked, what does your dad think about it when you talk about him?
Guest:Which is very interesting in 2011, right?
Guest:Like you had not written the book yet.
Guest:You had not really had it out with him.
Marc:Well, he didn't listen.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:He did not listen to the show.
Marc:He kept claiming that he did not know how to listen to it.
Guest:And that was true for another 10 years or so.
Guest:I think he only started listening to it now, right?
Marc:Well, he started listening to it because his wife...
Marc:Rosie started sitting him down and playing it.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:I think they started before he was diagnosed with the dementia or whatever he has.
Marc:He's losing his mind.
Marc:But I think it was...
Marc:She likes listening to it, and she's always excited about my success and my perceived fame.
Marc:But I think that there's an exercise to it as well to keep my father engaged with my voice and to just sit there and do it.
Marc:Because my dad...
Marc:Wouldn't do anything, you know, given the opportunity.
Marc:And I don't think I think some of that I took personally and I think it was legitimate.
Marc:But I don't think my dad sits and does much of anything but ruminate about this or that even before he had the dementia.
Marc:But now it's become an active engagement with my life that they can sort of have twice a week.
Marc:And I think it at this point, it sort of helps him, you know, keep me in his mind.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, and if people don't know what I'm talking about regarding the book, I mean, your book, Attempting Normal, which, you know, he did not like what you wrote about him.
Marc:That was the best.
Marc:I tell that story sometimes where he was all upset because he thought it was going to get him in trouble because he thought, you know, that because of my discussion of his his bipolar disposition and his depression and his episodes, that he would be liable to.
Marc:uh, you know, for, for civil lawsuits going back however many years in terms of, of his medical practice.
Marc:I don't think that came to pass and he's, you know, bankrupt anyways.
Marc:But, but I remember I called him, you remember that?
Marc:And I'm like, what do you want money?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I told him like, so you worked up like, I don't get, what do you want money?
Marc:He goes, yeah.
Marc:And I go, how much?
Marc:He goes, a hundred thousand dollars.
Marc:And I said, I'll give you five.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, man, you both wanted to say that for a long time on either side.
Guest:He wanted to put a number on it, and you wanted to lowball him.
Marc:Well, yeah, but the funny thing was is that it did raise a lot of issues with me in terms of how you handle your side of a story that involves other people.
Marc:And I'm not – in retrospect, I believe –
Marc:That there was probably some spite driving me.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:In characterizing him.
Marc:So, like, you know, and that's still a decision one makes in telling their own story.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, here was a question that came from Eddie Brill, who said, how do you feel differently as a comic now than you were five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago?
Guest:Which is an interesting thing to ask now.
Guest:How do you feel different as a comic from when WTF was ascendant?
Marc:Five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
Marc:Was I already in it 20 years?
Marc:Yeah, probably pretty close.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I was a professional at that point for 23 years already.
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:Well, look, man, I mean...
Marc:The interesting thing that we talked about a lot at the beginning of the podcast was now I've got all of these new fans who don't know me as a comic.
Marc:It was a big concern for me at the beginning, and it was hard for me.
Marc:I was like, I didn't get into this game to be an interviewer.
Marc:I know it was a job on television that I tried to get, but ultimately, and it's even stronger now, I've always been and always wanted to be
Marc:a comic of some relevance.
Marc:And we didn't start the podcast for you to be an interviewer.
Guest:We started the podcast for you to do a radio show that highlighted you the way we were doing it on the air at air America and various other outlets.
Guest:And the thought was, this will be a way to help your standup career.
Guest:Like it was a side gig to help out with your profile because
Guest:Much the same way years earlier people had started MySpace pages or whatever.
Guest:This was like, and for me, I was like, well, I know I can use this medium to do what Mark and I do well already, which is make radio content.
Guest:It wasn't thought to be an interview show and that you were going to be the interview guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I guess that's right.
Marc:I forget that.
Marc:But then, like, you know, I started to think differently about it because I remember when we had Studs Terkel on, you know, looking back at his interview, like there was a place for it.
Marc:And it sort of evolved into this other thing.
Marc:But nonetheless, you know, separating even it happens now.
Marc:You know, someone came up to me the other night and said, you know, I really like your show and I just got to go.
Marc:Thanks, as opposed to like which one.
Marc:Um, but, but at that time I was like, all the, I remember it was very important to me to, to sort of make it clear that, you know, like, cause I had these people listening to the podcast that were like, we need to go out and support Mark do his standup.
Marc:I'm like, I know how to do that.
Marc:I'm not looking for support.
Marc:I'm not some newbie.
Marc:That's, you know, giving this a try.
Marc:So it was sort of a big struggle for me in my mind primarily.
Marc:But, you know, the audience changed and, you know, people – you know, I had to evolve this new fan base into understanding that I was a comic.
Marc:But there's no –
Marc:There's no comparing in a lot of ways in terms of how it affects my stand-up now is that on the podcast, I didn't feel limited to stand-up, and I can engage my entire personality for the most part, intellectually, emotionally.
Marc:So stand up becomes a different thing.
Marc:And then I was nervous about these new fans who heard me do early versions of or improvising the stories and then polishing them up, polishing them up for stand up.
Marc:And, you know, it was it became very symbiotic.
Marc:But but ultimately how it affects my stand up now is.
Marc:For better, for worse, usually for better, you know, I have a good amount of people that want to come see me do the work and understand now the difference between my stand up in the podcast and understand that it's a different muscle and that, you know, they don't really always know what's going to happen.
Marc:But it certainly increased my fan base and increased my and got me to a place of fearlessness.
Marc:That was not possible before the podcast in terms of being a stand-up.
Marc:And also, it got me, I think, an audience that wouldn't have been there, that grew all out of opportunities I got because of the podcast, whether it be the Marin show or the specials or my acting gigs or GLOW or anything.
Marc:I have to...
Marc:Credit the podcast for getting me any opportunity that I have had since its beginning.
Marc:So it's impacted my stand-up on all levels, but mostly creatively, freedom of mind-wise.
Marc:You know, in a very pure sense, it's made my comedy better and deeper.
Guest:Well, I also think that since Eddie asked that question in the years since—
Guest:there's been some humility around your engagement with comedy in relation to your peers, or even if it's not peers, just influences.
Guest:Like, what I mean by that is you've talked to so many people who you...
Guest:while talking to them can understand this is a person to, you know, be admired or be respected for what they do.
Guest:And you're less inclined to think like, well, I just don't do it that way.
Guest:You know, I'm, I'm different.
Guest:I'm a different kind of guy.
Guest:And I've noticed, you know, as you were leading up to, you know, the more recent hour long specials that you have done in past years, you'd be more open to like, Hey, I got to construct things.
Guest:And that was through the influence of you listening to other people talk about it, watching other things, watching old comedy.
Guest:And that was just something I didn't I don't think was going to happen in 2011 or before that of you thinking like, hey, how about I surrender a little bit of my knowledge of this to other people?
Guest:And you'd use the influences you got from the conversations you had to hone your stand up.
Guest:That didn't make it any less yours, but it deepened it a bit.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:I made different decisions around technique.
Marc:And yeah, and I chose, you know, I started to become more mature as a performer in terms of making choices as opposed to just, you know, flying by the seat of my pants.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in terms of structuring hours, most of that, you know, and I think is a good place to say it, was to, in spite of Mike Birbiglia.
Marc:I was like, all right, so this guy thinks he's a big deal because he can structure a show?
Marc:I'll structure a show.
Marc:I do now enjoy structuring shows.
Marc:Oh, I bet you do.
Marc:It was a step I had to take because I thought the way I was handling it was exciting, it was unpredictable, and it was inconsistent.
Marc:But I sort of, like...
Marc:rationalized that i was i was feeding on that energy but i also thought it did come from uh it's very much like that joke i used to do that if i don't prepare you know and i tank yeah it's on it's on it's fine yeah i didn't i didn't prepare if i kill it's like that's amazing i'm a genius yeah so well that's funny that that bit that line starts thinking pain
Guest:which is, of your hours, the loosest, like, least prepared hour.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:For better or worse.
Guest:Some people love it.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:It's a unique hour.
Guest:It has some great stuff in it.
Guest:But you can watch that and be – you can tell watching it, oh, this guy is just going.
Marc:Yeah, and that was, like, a long one, too.
Marc:Like, it was 90 minutes or something.
Marc:And then, like, you know, but I really have gotten sort of –
Marc:The last few specials, I've enjoyed structure.
Guest:That leads in to the next question, which might have a different answer today than it did in 2011, was from Sarah Silverman, who said, with all the success you're having, do you think your insecurities or vulnerabilities will swell or subside?
Guest:What do you think will happen?
Guest:What do you hope will happen?
Marc:Wow, I can't... I wouldn't even know how to answer that.
Marc:Well, they certainly...
Marc:Some of them subsided.
Marc:Like, I think that the difference between pretending to be fearless and being fearless on stage are really two different things.
Marc:So the insecurities around performing
Marc:definitely changed quite a bit.
Marc:So whatever I may have thought at that time, the most important insecurities, which in terms of hobbling me around performing, have definitely gotten much better.
Marc:Though they do...
Marc:come back.
Marc:Like, you know, the last couple of weeks I've been really kind of shaky, you know, in terms of confidence.
Marc:And I'm not sure why it happened.
Marc:I think it was because I got a cold.
Marc:I had a couple of bad sets because my voice was going and I didn't have my full equipment, you know, and now leading into this Boston show.
Marc:I'm nervous about going back to Boston and performing at the garden because for somebody like me and the type of comedy I do, I have to figure out
Marc:But this is also professional.
Marc:You know, which jokes am I doing now land, you know, concretely enough to do that size of room?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I think all of that to say that...
Marc:Ultimately, fundamental insecurities that I have that I've had all my life come and go, and some of them have gotten better a little bit, but not much.
Marc:But insecurities around performing and doing what I do professionally have changed.
Guest:really shifted they they're they're very manageable and they don't they don't um they are no longer obstacles well it's interesting that you said i i don't even know how to answer that because when mike asked you that you know from sarah's question in that episode you answered it right away and you said your fear of what's what's going to happen is that you'll get your head will get too big and you'll fuck everything up
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that that didn't happen.
Guest:No, but it's funny that that wouldn't that never even entered your mind now like this.
Guest:That's that's an interesting thing.
Marc:You've put that to bed largely like as I tell you, the one thing about my insecurities is that the benefit of them is they will not let that happen.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Like you're talking now more insecure than you were in 2011.
Guest:Like that was out of fear of overconfidence back then.
Marc:Well, that's because there was a time out of, you know, that whatever got me to where I got, you know, in terms of, you know, pressing myself into the world of comedy was a certain amount of angry swagger and a certain amount of undeserved, you know, confidence and a kind of like, you know, I was an aggressive...
Marc:mildly bullying, you know, judgmental fuck that had this swagger that was completely rooted in insecurity.
Marc:So I thought if that continued on, if that became bigger, that part of me, you know, that would be a problem.
Marc:But there is a deeper insecurity that keeps me... I'd like to think humble.
Marc:I'd like to think it's humility.
Marc:But it really is just that, you know...
Marc:Like as things got bigger, you know, I had to sort of contextualize them differently because, you know, I didn't want the vessel to totally fall apart.
Marc:So it became real humility.
Marc:And I think was really the foundation of me, you know, embracing the vulnerability as opposed to that.
Marc:That other thing did not have the fuel to get big and destroy me.
Hmm.
Guest:John Mulaney at the time asked, what do you think is edgy in comedy?
Guest:And I'm interested to know if your answer to that is different than it was back then.
Marc:Well, I think it seems to me, for me, to be vulnerable enough to take real emotional risks on stage and figure out where the humor is in that and also to stay...
Marc:To sort of keep your heart in the game with that stuff.
Guest:The answer you gave when he asked that was, it was instant.
Guest:You said, being completely honest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's edgy.
Guest:Which I hear as different from what you just said.
Guest:They're related.
Guest:But what you're saying now about...
Guest:being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability.
Guest:That's emotional honesty.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it reflects a maturity and some corrections you've had to make in your life about that idea of just being completely honest.
Guest:Like you have over the course of the last 12 years kind of
Guest:You redirected certain things because you feel there are things that can be kept personal or there are things that don't have to be shared.
Guest:Or, you know, it's like that thing you've talked about with with Louie when you told him he had to talk about the Oklahoma City bombing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like when he was going to do his Letterman show.
Marc:But that was different.
Marc:I think that honesty can be, that a certain type of honesty can be in a defense mechanism.
Marc:And it can be jarring.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it can be, you know, for effect.
Guest:Well, that's the funny thing.
Guest:You were likening it to people who did edgy comedy for effect at the time in this episode.
Guest:You were like, you know, it doesn't take much to be like, I don't know, the Pope licks my balls or Jesus lives in my ass.
Guest:I just love that those are your two examples.
Marc:Yeah, I kind of like... I'm going to bring that back.
Marc:Jesus lives in my ass.
Marc:I don't think I ever got any... I got to get that back out there.
Guest:Well...
Guest:There are lots of questions in here from other comics that Mike asked you.
Guest:I would recommend people go back and listen to this.
Guest:I think you just listen to it for the time capsule nature of it.
Guest:And it's still pretty fascinating where you were at, your answers to things.
Guest:There's nothing.
Guest:It's like you say many times that when you watch old comedy of yourself, you're like, well, I see me in there.
Guest:And you and the show are definitely there in this episode 200.
Guest:But I do think it's worth asking you...
Guest:Again, the last question that was asked of you in that episode, which was from Conan.
Guest:And the question was just simply, who the fuck do you think you are?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I would redirect that question back to him at this point.
Marc:I'd like to hear him answer that now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did I answer that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean...
Marc:Like, right now, the way I'm looking at myself in this sort of mild, you know, buckling of my confidence is that, you know, I believe I was somebody that felt deeply that I deserved a place in this world that I exist in creatively.
Marc:And I don't think I was getting my right place.
Right.
Marc:And there's still part of me that thinks that I'm not in a way, but I'm going to have to chalk that up to some sort of misconception of who I am in this world.
Marc:But I think who the fuck I think I was or am even now is somebody that...
Marc:you know, is persistent in putting myself out there as my creativity and insistent that people reckon with it.
Guest:Do you know what 2011 you said as the answer to that question?
Guest:You said, I think I am exactly who I am, finally.
Guest:I think that's what I'm saying again.
Guest:Yeah, well, but it's interesting, like, there's more doubt in your voice right now.
Guest:Like, you're saying it with a sense of, like...
Guest:I hope that I'm this guy who puts out into the world what I want to put out in that.
Marc:But I think that's but that's coming from an evolved place in that that's coming from the place of me knowing who I am.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And what I just said is, you know, by this point, pretty well established as part of me.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And also knowing that that even within the time period of things going well, life can kick you in the balls.
Marc:Well, that's for sure.
Marc:But, uh, but no, I think that still holds.
Marc:I mean, you know, and, and I, you know, it's, that's how I would have, that you, that ultimately is that the journey for me has always been about, you know, uh, uh, some sort of search for self and,
Marc:And that, you know, that in 2011, I had felt that the medium of podcasting enabled me to be that as best I as thoroughly as I could in a public forum.
Marc:And I think that has continued in both the podcast and in my stand up.
Marc:And in my acting.
Marc:And but I think in times of of insecurity, which comes and goes, I see that as being a liability in that, you know, like, well, man, if I just hidden some of this shit, you know, I could have been bigger.
Marc:And and so so like, what does that imply?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like there's some part of my insecurity that says, like, you know, I still should have kept some of this in.
Marc:I should have figured out how to, you know, understand the limitations or put at least put some parameters around my talent or or or.
Marc:But because what has made me who I am and what has made the show popular and what has brought me whatever fan base I have, it is this struggle within the sort of authenticity of who I am.
Marc:And, you know, we started all this in my conversations around this before anyone was talking about vulnerability or authenticity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I think that ultimately, you know, that was happening with this show.
Marc:And it was at the heart of what really got people started in this medium in terms of, you know, showing themselves.
Marc:And I think that I can rest some laurels on me being somewhat of a pioneer of that shit.
Guest:Um, hell yeah.
Guest:And I, I really, I don't think there's any greater way to see that in one, you know, uh, uh, time capsule episode than this, because people go back and listen to this won't only hear your evolution with it.
Guest:Uh, they'll hear all the things that were on the show at that time.
Guest:And in fact, I think a good idea is to, uh,
Guest:You know, if you're going to go back and listen to the episode, you'll hear this.
Guest:But but why don't I just pop it here at the end, too?
Guest:There was a kind of audio montage at the end of that episode that went through like some of the highlights of that first two years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I felt at the time listening to that and I feel it again now hearing it again.
Guest:It's like, oh, this could have been the finale.
Guest:Like this was good enough to be to be it.
Guest:Like we done.
Guest:Yeah, that could have been.
Guest:And I remember feeling the same thing in like episode 500 or episode 1000.
Guest:Like it always feels like, well, we did.
Guest:We did our work here.
Guest:But like somehow it can still continue.
Guest:It's a very weird thing.
Marc:Yeah, it's interesting about both of us.
Marc:It's sort of like as long as like any given episode could be the last one.
Marc:There's that panic of that, you know.
Guest:As far as I know, there is still an episode this Thursday.
Marc:Oh, good, good.
Marc:All right, good.
Marc:Was there that sense of competition, though, that you needed to do something more intelligent?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:No, I didn't have that.
Guest:Clearly, you're working through some personal issues through me.
Guest:Did you have that?
Guest:Why are you taking the other side of everything I say?
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm just saying that.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything about what you're asking me about?
Guest:I'm just telling you.
Marc:You're done?
Marc:We were having a good conversation.
Marc:Oh, come on, Gallagher.
Guest:Comics at the Comedy Store who don't like me, I really want you to know this.
Guest:Seriously, I have a couple of friends who want to come and beat the shit out of you.
Guest:For real.
Guest:Like, fuck you up.
Guest:And I tell them not to because for whatever reason, let me not interpret my own behavior.
Guest:You know, I may be a dick on stage, but that's not why I'm so like, I want those people to know that, you know, despite of what you think.
Guest:I have stopped bad shit from happening.
Guest:There is a line, so to speak, that I won't cross.
Marc:The only thing negative I ever said about you, ever, when anyone brings you up, is that I say, that guy doesn't really bother me.
Marc:I don't know why everyone's angry at him.
Marc:He doesn't really bother me.
Marc:He's an empty vessel full of fuel.
Guest:And people would come to me and say, hey, do you ever bump into Mark?
Guest:And I go, that guy is like an ominous demon.
Guest:And I would say dark things about you.
Guest:Kids are supposed to cry when they're born, but she seemed angry to me and upset.
Guest:Like I expected just, oh, you know, when a kid's crying in the delivery room, everybody's smiling.
Guest:Oh, look at her cry.
Guest:But I was really upset for her.
Guest:And they put her on this little table and they're putting stuff around her.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Unexpectedly emotional.
Guest:Water is good.
Guest:It washes away your love for your children.
Guest:You can talk without a shaking voice.
Guest:Did it take a lot out of you?
Guest:It did, and I'm really happy with it, and I'm happy with how it was reviewed, but I don't think it was like a... I'm not for everyone, as it turns out, and I've always seemed to know that.
Guest:I find that about me as well.
Guest:It was an eclectic mix, you know, and a loud, you know, a little like...
Guest:Weird comedy like Freaky Ralph, who eventually set himself on fire.
Guest:To close?
Guest:No, to end his life.
Guest:Oh, no, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, that's the ultimate closing.
Guest:But seriously, I'll be here until five minutes from now.
Guest:God.
Guest:man you're killing yourself oh fuck yeah to close only a comic record to close how did you see the first and second show it's not an opener oh god that's the terror of joy if i enjoy this as you know as completely as i as i want to yeah it's gonna hurt
Guest:hurt when it goes wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the mistake is it hurts already.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like keeping shut down is what really hurts.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so it doesn't actually make sense.
Guest:And you have to think about it all the time to know that's what's happening.
Guest:I'm not actually enjoying this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you're thinking about it, it stops it from happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you're not present.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're waiting for a punch.
Guest:That's how I feel like.
Guest:I feel like my dukes up all day long looking for someone who's going to punch me.
Guest:And here's the thing.
Guest:No one ever punches me.
Guest:This has been the 200th episode of Mark Maron's What the Fuck podcast.
Guest:I'm Mike Verbiglia, and that's Mark Maron, and we're signing off.
Guest:Thanks, Mike.
Guest:Thank you.