BONUS Year in Review - Memorable WTF Moments
Guest:So it wasn't my intention to do this right off the bat, but we're recording and you just finished an interview with Joel Edgerton.
Guest:So I figured since we normally talk about these things before we get into the other stuff, how was that?
Marc:Well, I thought it was really good.
Marc:I'm a big fan of that guy's work.
Marc:And, you know, we had made some decisions about what we could talk to him about.
Marc:But I just watched that movie he did...
Marc:For Netflix, I don't know who... Well, no, it wasn't for Netflix, but it's on Netflix.
Marc:The Stranger.
Guest:Yeah, I think Netflix was the only place it got a U.S.
Guest:release.
Guest:So maybe he did it in Australia, and they released it here on Netflix.
Marc:That movie's insane.
Marc:And he wrote it?
Marc:And the guy who... Nope.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:He brought in a guy...
Marc:I forget the guy's name now.
Marc:I had it before.
Marc:But the guy he's co-starring with, Sean Harris, who has done some stuff, who has been, who was in The King for him and British actor, was beyond fucking terrifying and creepy.
Marc:The movie is one of those movies that's kind of menacing and it's claustrophobia and it's like, right, you know, it's an actor's movie.
Marc:It's really the two of them and it's about a fairly complex...
Marc:undercover operation to get a guy to admit to a rape and murder of a young boy a decade before.
Marc:And it's just horrifying.
Marc:True story, though, right, too?
Marc:True story, yeah.
Marc:So I had that in my head, and I had Black Mass in my head from seeing it many times over the last few weeks because of HBO and hotel rooms.
Marc:And I've always been a fan of that guy.
Marc:But it was...
Marc:It was good.
Marc:It was a good conversation.
Marc:And again, I tried not to talk about acting with actors all the time, but there were some things I was curious about with him.
Marc:And we seemed to get most of what I set out to get, but it was an engaged talk about...
Marc:a lot of the things that he does.
Guest:I noticed in some interviews he's done, you know, prior to this, he's, you know, I wouldn't say he is cagey, but he's, you know, kind of flat out states that he, you know, keeps some boundaries around talking about stuff in his personal life.
Guest:Did you feel like he was doing that with you?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I mean, he told me he had twins and, you know, how fatherhood is affected, how he...
Marc:does his work now.
Marc:You know, he talked a bit about that time in his life when he was younger and got out of control, but he was cagey about it.
Marc:But it kind of came back around a little bit and it suggested that whatever it was, you know, he still drinks and stuff, but something got away from him with some substance.
Marc:So he didn't seem particularly cagey.
Marc:I didn't ask him about his wife or anything.
Guest:Well, no, I'm more talking about that.
Guest:I've seen that same type of reaction, but even less forthcoming than you're even describing.
Guest:No, he was very forthcoming.
Guest:Yeah, I've seen him say, I've had mistakes in my past, but I don't need to talk about that right now, or things like that.
Marc:No, no, he talked about the nature of addiction and judging addiction and how having gone through it himself expanded his empathy and self-judgment.
Marc:He was about as thorough a talk that that guy's going to give, really.
Guest:Well, that's interesting.
Guest:My sense of him, just from the stuff I was reading and taking in, watching some clips of him, was that whatever that was that kind of got him a little out of control earlier in his life, he has kept it in check much in the same way he keeps a lot of his stuff in check, like a kind of...
Guest:real control and uh practiced way of doing his work which kind of runs at odds to who he is as a person like he seems like he's the kind of guy who actually wants to things to be very real and he wants to chase like a high of performance and like that seems to like run counter to the need to like control things and be um you know very in the pocket all the time i
Marc:i don't think i he didn't strike me that way he yeah no he's he doesn't he's not you know he's got he's got insecurities that he's aware of uh you know in his process he's he's fairly collaborative in terms of when he's writing and directing it seems either with his brother or with this collective they put together to sort of like encourage each other and criticize each other the only kind of
Marc:addictive thing he does is he likes when there's... He's hard on himself and he's unsure of himself in the way that he beats himself up.
Marc:So that puts him, not unlike me, it puts you in a position to kind of discover things in the moment.
Marc:I didn't get the sense that he's...
Marc:That controlly, really.
Marc:I think the work that he puts in, you know, he said that, look, you know, he's got a lot to get over just any time he has to do anything other than an Australian accent.
Marc:And he does some work around, you know, what kind of, you know, he does a little of the kind of picturing the character because his characters struck me as being very deliberate and that it seems like there's one way into most of them that gives him the way to move forward with it.
Marc:But he maintains a certain amount of busy brainness.
Marc:And I think he's very hard on himself to the point where that negotiation is always going on.
Marc:So I didn't get a sense that there was a struggle for the real, maybe for the present.
Marc:But he's definitely a guy that expresses himself through characters and not a guy who wants to express himself as himself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But...
Marc:But it seems like the process is more – he obviously has one, but he likes discovery.
Marc:So he's not a big – he's not rigid.
Guest:Well, it's interesting too.
Guest:I think he got very famous in Australia from like Australia famous level because he was on this show that was widely watched.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I know that most people, if you kind of said his name, some people would know who he is here.
Guest:If you explained what he was in, people go, oh yeah, I know that guy.
Guest:But I don't think he's a truly superstar fame level actor here in the US.
Guest:It's a character actor.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And I wonder if that actually has helped him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like he did this thing where he was in Australia and he got like way famous real fast and it gave him anxiety and he doesn't like, you know, going to premieres and stuff.
Guest:But he only has to do that in a minor way, considering the level of stuff that he's in.
Guest:I mean, he's in a lot of big things.
Guest:He just happens to be kind of a chameleon.
Marc:He talks about choosing to be somewhat isolated and a little bit involved in his personal life.
Marc:But he did talk about not really liking doing a lot of that stuff, but not unlike a lot of those Australian actors who are incredible artists.
Marc:They're character actors primarily, you know, outside of Russell Crowe and where Heath Ledger was leading.
Marc:But, like, that guy Mendelsohn or, you know, that guy, like, even Hugh Jackman is, I don't know.
Marc:You know, he's done leading man stuff, but it's deep character stuff.
Marc:It's not movie star stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, you can't point to any of the roles he's been in and be like, oh, no, that's a Tom Cruise role, right?
Guest:It's all character stuff.
Marc:Yeah, but he I mean, it seems like he likes to work and he's he's definitely a real actor.
Marc:But there's no a lot of times with these actors, there's no way they can tell you how they do something because so much of it is innate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, we talked a lot about that character in Black Mass.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Who's a real guy.
Marc:who he studied deeply and kind of put everything into place with that in terms of an accent that wasn't fundamentally Boston.
Marc:It was a little bit New York.
Marc:And he knew that people who knew the guy would know that he was nailing it, but anybody else would be like, what is that weird accent he's doing?
Marc:But it was intentional.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's funny.
Guest:So it was like it was it was it was intentionally not a specific Boston accent, which was authentic.
Marc:And also I told him I said that character because I said you don't do any comedy.
Marc:So he's afraid of comedy.
Marc:Also, he talked about he had some history doing stand up.
Marc:what yeah he uh when he was in college he put together he put together a bit with a guy he was in drama school with and they did it many times it was it wasn't straight stand-up but it was like the other guy banna yeah it was a bit and uh and then you know they had they tried another bit and they had a bad night on stage and that was the end of that
Guest:Oh, so he didn't ever actually pursue it with any real intent.
Marc:Well, it sounded like they were doing it, but it was like a team thing.
Marc:It was a scripted thing, and they were doing it quite a bit, it sounded like.
Marc:And when it got to a point where they couldn't manage an unruly crowd with a couple of bachelor parties in it, and they ate it, that was enough for him.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, good.
Guest:I'm glad that went well.
Guest:You know, we've been trying to, you know, when you have actors on, one of the things I've been saying to you before we do them is, is really, I just want us to make sure it's a person who, you know, has things that you are passionate about.
Guest:Like you've seen their performances in certain things and you would be fine if the entire talk was just on, you know, black mass or, you
Guest:When you're talking to Peter Sarsgaard, you've seen him in things, and you're like, oh, there are things I can talk to that guy about.
Marc:Well, Edgerton writes and directs, and he wrote and directed pretty big movies.
Marc:And the two that he wrote, directed, and produced that were bigger movies, The Gift and Boy Erased...
Marc:are very different.
Marc:So, you know, that was the kind of the way in through The Stranger, which he produced, and he's the one who, what do you call it, chaperoned that story.
Marc:He optioned that book, and he fought for it, and he engaged a director whose work he liked that, you know, thought could sort it out so it wasn't a procedural, and you end up with this very poetic
Marc:arty movie about very dark business.
Marc:But there are scenes in it that are not unlike...
Marc:Ned Levine scenes in Silence of the Lambs, where, isn't that that guy's name?
Marc:Ted Levine.
Marc:Ted Levine, where, you know, the immersion into the character by that other guy, Sean Harris, puts anyone in his orbit into a position of engaging with something very disturbing.
Guest:That guy's real menacing looking too, that guy, Sean Harris.
Guest:Like he's always super intense.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, this was like above and beyond.
Marc:I mean, if you want to study what, you know, and he's British, so off mic, Joel said he's very method-y.
Marc:And if you want to really study immersion acting, you'll watch that thing.
Marc:So, in other words, there was a lot to talk about with him in terms of what he does and how he does it, kind of running the full spectrum of producing, writing, acting, directing.
Guest:Well, it seems like that production company he set up with his brother was kind of a salvation for him.
Guest:I think his career, I don't want to say it was stalled out.
Guest:He was getting roles in that.
Guest:But it really feels like it took off when they started kind of choosing their own projects and working on stuff together.
Marc:Yeah, but it's not a production company.
Marc:I think it was in place before he stumbled.
Marc:I mean, it was in place for the first feature that he wrote, which no one knows about.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's not, in essence, a production company.
Marc:It's a collective of guys who respect each other that kind of work collaboratively around developing things.
Marc:But he said they don't actually produce.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:That's almost like an ideal way to do it.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, his brother has always been present in his life and in the same sphere as him.
Marc:And his brother directs as well and did stunts as well.
Marc:And in his directing process, he says that a lot of times—we talked a lot about, you know, watching your own work.
Marc:And he said even in editing, when he's directing a film—
Marc:He'll set it up and then he'll, you know, he'll sit his brother in front of the monitor and watch for his brother's reactions first.
Marc:So it's more of an artistic support group.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it's funny.
Guest:It's like I've known plenty of people who work here in New York.
Guest:um, in theater who have a similar type of setup, right?
Guest:It's not like they're, uh, a group of people who are going to raise the funds to get stuff put up on Broadway, but they're going to develop shows and, you know, deal with enough, you know, as a collective read enough things to,
Guest:do table reads on enough things and then go, okay, let's do this at a small theater somewhere with these actors.
Guest:And then it gets seen and then it might get done or it doesn't.
Guest:And they just put the work in and they move on.
Guest:Like, and that's what they want to do.
Guest:Like that's their desire of how to work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's, I mean, well, that's the, the real process to, to,
Marc:Kind of find something that you care about and kind of put trust in people that you respect to hone it or to move on or to shelve it or whatever you're going to do.
Guest:Yeah, that's great.
Guest:That's real collaboration.
Guest:That's, as I said, the ideal of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, cool.
Guest:I'm glad that went well.
Guest:And we often talk with each other after these interviews, but it wasn't until about halfway through the year that I decided, hey, you know what?
Guest:Let's have these conversations on the microphone sometimes.
Guest:Somebody will come over and they'll leave and it's worth talking about so that people kind of hear the immediate process.
Guest:And there were just a bunch this year
Guest:You know, it's funny.
Guest:We were talking the other day just about guests who've been on and we both did that thing where it's like, man, I can't believe some of the guests we've had on the show.
Guest:It's just crazy.
Marc:Well, it's way beyond the point of me remembering who has or hasn't.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I was just realizing that's the case for this year alone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went back and looked at the full calendar year of what we've done, and it's just crazy.
Guest:It's crazy that in year 13 of doing this show, 13, 14, we were able to still just...
Guest:have this variety and, and amazing personal experience.
Guest:The experience we both have in doing the job, like the first time it happens, you having the conversation, me editing the conversation, like sometimes.
Marc:And then me forgetting the conversation.
Yeah.
Guest:But in those moments, I'm like, wow, we got that's crazy.
Guest:We just did that.
Guest:That was that was nuts.
Marc:Well, it's very interesting, even with Joel, who, you know, I've had on my mind because I watch his work and I, you know, I go through the same process I do all the time, which is, you know, I mean, I'm intimidated a bit.
Marc:leading into it because the relationship I have with the guy is relative to his work and to my own perception of him.
Marc:And then I get a certain amount of anxiety.
Marc:And then you and I kind of like go over some stuff that are interesting things that are interesting about his life.
Marc:And then, you know, I've got to just wait until that day before and
Marc:to really figure out, you know, where or how I'm going to enter a conversation with him despite whatever we've kind of talked about.
Marc:It has to be personal.
Marc:And then like last night, I was like, well, just watch this thing.
Marc:What is this thing?
Marc:And then, you know, that kind of sealed the deal for me in terms of, you know, what he does as an actor, you know, being pretty awesome and how I was going to go with that.
Marc:And in my...
Marc:It was like this seemed like a risky, you know, bit of business to be engaged emotionally and in character with somebody like Sean Harris playing that role that, you know, what were the risks around that?
Marc:And it turns out like.
Marc:If anything, like we were talking about before, he's... Well, we don't need to talk about him again, but my process in approaching these things is always the same.
Marc:It's like I am filled with a manageable amount of anxiety leading into a conversation with somebody that I can only conceive of and react to relative to what I think of them or who I think they are.
Guest:Yeah, and a lot of times that's part of the kind of magic of the conversation is like...
Guest:learning I'm wrong, unpacking that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like if you've, you've put this thing together and then just slowly kind of have the, the, the wrapping torn off.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And, and, you know, and, and just because I make, you know, I have ideas, you know, that gives me a point of view and then like, I'm not going to, you know, impose it on them, but that's somehow I do kind of, you know, I'm not afraid to, to say things and have them go, no, no, no, not that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I mean, some people do that more than others.
Marc:I mean, Herzog, that was fucking ridiculous.
Marc:But, you know, but it happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everything I said to Werner Herzog, no.
Guest:Well, the hilarious thing was, like, he was taking this, like, completely Pollyannish, optimism-driven approach to everything.
Guest:And, like, you were approaching it, like, not falsely, like, the way that you –
Guest:You know, normally your normal disposition toward technology, the fast moving nature of change and progress and the detachment of it.
Guest:And he's like, why are you sounding so doomed?
Marc:Yeah, that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I guess, you know, if you begin your career at the base of an active volcano, you know, your sense of what doom really is, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's like, when Werner Herzog is telling you to lighten up a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's so German, isn't it?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, let's go back all the way to January.
Guest:And I wanted to talk about an episode that you did.
Guest:And we really haven't talked about it on the mics at all.
Guest:Although we talked about it quite extensively right after you did it.
Guest:This was right at the beginning of the year, episode 1399 with Cat Williams, which I feel like is a great example of like...
Guest:A talk where both you in the moment while you were having it and then me, as soon as I started listening to it, we were both like, I think this is all bullshit.
Marc:Yeah, that was like one of the great amplified bullshit talks.
Marc:But, you know, but we've had other guests like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't think I don't think that there is that it's necessarily all bullshit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, his perception of who he was or who he chose he was or how he sees himself now in relation to the events of his life, you know, he builds stories around them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, and even when he's telling you them, you know, I know, you know, it's embellished to be diplomatic.
Marc:And so does he.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The crying hookers.
Marc:The crying hookers.
Guest:The story of how he became a pimp was because he showed up to a house where a pimp just died and the hookers were crying and asked him if he would please take over, sir.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or how he read every book ever written.
Guest:Yeah, what he said, like I've read like...
Guest:Like 12,000 autobiographies.
Guest:It was a number that was physically impossible.
Guest:It was like the number of days he's alive.
Guest:It would not be possible to read that many books.
Marc:But to sit with that guy in whatever version he's going to give you was hilarious.
Marc:Because like he chose, he was going to be like, I'm going to talk to Mark like a regular person.
Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, and then you're like, all right, so this is Cat Williams, you know, being a regular person.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And, you know, and sort of like, you know, sharing this version of himself.
Marc:that is highly intelligent, has done all the homework.
Marc:Winston Churchill was his inspiration.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But there are bits and pieces of it that are so clearly true.
Marc:It's very easy in that conversation, which is what makes it great, to see that there is truth to all of it.
Marc:It's just he's gone back and...
Guest:tweaked it a bit you know yes exactly but that was one of those ones where it was just so fun to sit across from that guy and watch him do that to me yeah yeah i remember that afterwards like we were talking and you were like i i don't know if this is gonna sound good or anything but it was entertaining to me yeah yeah
Guest:That was a great episode, 1399.
Guest:Now, a few weeks later, episode 1404, I don't think it was as comfortable for you in the room.
Guest:It was, frankly, a very, I think, difficult and maybe in some ways awkward interview.
Guest:But I think very rewarding for people who listen.
Guest:In fact, it is the most listened to episode that we did this past year.
Guest:I'm sure that owes itself to being earlier in the year and people have caught up with it.
Guest:But it was episode 1404 with Brendan Fraser.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:I feel like that was your reaction when that one was over was like almost like you had barely walked through.
Guest:You, you, you like did the sorcerer bridge run where you barely made it over without the car exploding.
Guest:Like you felt it was on like a, a, a knife's edge the whole time.
Marc:And he was the car.
Guest:I guess so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I wasn't even wearing the suit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I felt that it was you know he showed up
Marc:Yeah, very exposed.
Guest:Yeah, he had been through the ringer of the awards season stuff.
Marc:Yeah, and fragile, and I knew that.
Marc:So really what happens in those situations, which don't happen often, but I feel have happened in one form or another, is the subtext is, all right, well, I don't want him to come...
Marc:I don't want him to lose it in a way that he can't handle.
Marc:And I felt that that was possible.
Marc:So I was, you know, calibrating, you know, in relation to the tone, emotional tone of his voice and what we were talking about to sort of just keep that, you know, just barely at bay through most of it.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I, you know, I think there's the feeling while it was happening of like, is this guy okay?
Marc:Well, yeah, that's happened before, too, where it's just like, look, yeah, it was fine, but he doesn't, you know, it doesn't seem great right now for that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In the sense that, like, you know, I hope he doesn't, you know, tip.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, by the way, speaking of him, did you, we didn't talk about this when we were talking about the Scorsese movie.
Guest:What did you think of him in that movie?
Guest:The Killers of the Flower Moon?
Guest:I thought he was good.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Like I, I had no idea after I saw the movie, I had, and then saw there's all this reaction that people hate him in the movie.
Guest:They think he's like so out of place and overacting.
Guest:I was like, wasn't that the point?
Guest:Like lawyer, defense lawyer.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:In the wild West.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:What did they think he was going to be?
Guest:I thought it was a perfectly done bit of business.
Guest:And it's, you know, it's what, you know, of a three and a half hour movie, it's what, six minutes total?
Marc:Not even the Wild West, but definitely, you know, a defense lawyer at the precipice of corporate takeover.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:of this country.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:During a time of complete disreputability on every level.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, how is that?
Marc:He's going to be a, a flimflam amplified.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huckster showman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I, I loved him in it.
Guest:I, uh,
Guest:I loved him in both scenes, like the scene in the courtroom where he's just ridiculous, like just loud, like almost like an opera singer in the middle of this court.
Guest:But then him, like his sales pitch to the dumb ass DiCaprio in the room with all the power brokers.
Guest:Yeah, I thought it was great.
Guest:Yeah, people have to shut the fuck up.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's just the worst.
Marc:Every idiot.
Guest:Well, on the flip side of a person going through the awards rigmarole, but in a much different way, and in fact, in a way that was so knock-your-socks-off impressive, it is not surprising, to me anyway, that she won the Academy Award last year.
Guest:But it was episode 1411 with Michelle Yeoh.
Guest:And I feel like...
Guest:You had the reaction that basically probably everyone has around her of just like, this is like a megawatt force in my presence.
Marc:It was like talking to royalty.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was like, you know, she was so composed and she looked so great.
Marc:She had done TV that day.
Marc:And, you know, it feels like I got a little different interview than a lot of people, even in the long form, because I'd filled myself up.
Marc:With her past.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I somehow instinctively knew, you know, which places to go further into just by virtue of the conversation.
Marc:But it did feel like...
Marc:It was somebody who, you know, worked hard at everything but also had all these incredible special talents from, you know, fighting her way through, you know, a male-dominated, you know, art form being film and martial arts to sort of create this –
Marc:this place in the world that was uniquely hers, you know?
Marc:But she was just charming as hell.
Marc:And I'd never really felt so impressed with somebody in terms of
Marc:deserving the attention and, and, uh, and doing an amazing job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like she was handling the dog and pony show better than I think anyone we've ever encountered.
Guest:You know, there's always in this time of year when we have people on who are out there because of the award circuit, there's this sublimated, almost apologetic nature to some of them, right?
Guest:Like,
Guest:Yeah, I'm singing for my supper.
Guest:I know I got to do this.
Guest:And then they wind up having a good time or they talk and they, you know, they can get somewhere.
Marc:But that's also their insecurity trying to diminish, you know, how they really feel, which is like, I want it so bad.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't want to, I'm not trying to pigeonhole her as a person because...
Guest:Far be it from me, she's a million times more accomplished than I ever will be.
Guest:But I do think there is something to the fact that she was a beauty pageant contestant early in her life.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:She definitely carries herself.
Marc:But also just her posture, the way she presents, that there's something about the ingrained lessons of movement.
Marc:And she definitely has that.
Marc:Even just her posture.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, especially because she's done so many of her own stunts.
Guest:But I wonder how much of that also is to be comfortable because her back is so fucked up.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:But everything around that movie was so exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:For so many people, even talking to those guys who directed it.
Marc:I mean, they were just lit the fuck up and and full of it.
Guest:Yeah, it's really I mean, it's in hindsight, you know, I know people are going to have whatever their opinions are about the movie itself.
Guest:It was a refreshing thing that that movie was as great celebrated as it was.
Marc:It was great because it deserved it.
Marc:It was ambitious.
Marc:It was crazy.
Marc:And it worked.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was one of those things like, you know, those guys didn't know if they were going to be able to pull that thing together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they just were so on top of their vision and their ability to do it.
Marc:that I really believe they made exactly the movie they wanted to make and were surprised at that.
Marc:And then the fact that, you know, it just blew up, they were beside themselves.
Guest:Well, yes, if you want to hear that episode, that was the very next episode, episode 1412, if you missed that last year with the Daniels, Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert.
Guest:All of those people went on to win the Academy Award.
Guest:Michelle Yeoh, also Brendan Fraser.
Guest:So, yeah, we had a good track record last year.
Marc:Yeah, I think we pushed it over the top.
Marc:Over the top, exactly.
Marc:I think that's right.
Guest:I mean, don't laugh.
Guest:I mean, this show was one of the first shows that had Andrea Risborough on, and then she winds up getting that nomination.
Guest:And I think we were like one of the few long-form interviews with her out there that people could listen to before voting.
Marc:You know, she's not a big talker.
Guest:Well, you know, I wanted to jump back for a second and go back to an episode that I skipped over before, you know, talking about Michelle Yeoh.
Guest:It's an interesting one, though, because it came.
Guest:It's one of these ones that sometimes I notice something that I'm like, I think you're going to want to talk to this person.
Guest:And it might be like a person who you have zero knowledge of or like any amount of knowledge you have.
Guest:You would have never even engaged that part of your brain to know who they are and what they do.
Guest:And this was episode 1409 with Mark Summers.
Guest:from the Nickelodeon show Double Dare.
Guest:And I don't know why.
Guest:It was just something about his backstory as this like Jewish kid from Indianapolis who wanted to become a magician and then become a rabbi.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then, you know, winds up being this comedian and then winds up being a kid's game show host, even though he has OCD.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then he almost died a couple of times, like one horrible car accident.
Guest:And there was just all this stuff compounding on itself.
Guest:And I was like, I kind of think you should talk to this guy.
Guest:And you're like, yeah, why not?
Marc:Yeah, why not?
Marc:I mean, the key to me is that he was a comic, right?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But also the fact that it turns out he's like an immense self-mythologizer at a very low level.
Yeah.
Marc:And I could just see by watching that clip of him with Burt Reynolds on the Tonight Show.
Marc:where he assumed a gravitas that he did not have.
Marc:And I've done that.
Marc:And that's a bad fucking moment.
Marc:And it's a bad moment to have on television, but that guy had no choice but to kind of stay in the fucking saddle.
Marc:And he was lucky that Burt Reynolds, who was probably half drunk, didn't fucking lay him out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when I saw that, I'm like, this guy's a cocky asshole.
Marc:And I understand that.
Marc:So I'm going to go at it with him because I knew right away that he was going to be one of those guys that I could kind of, you know, you know, take punches at a little bit.
Marc:And he's just going to, like, absorb them.
Marc:But also, you know, you'll feel the hit a little bit, but be OK with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he gave some back a little bit, but you're right.
Guest:He kind of now, I think, has it properly calibrated.
Marc:Yeah, but it took a lot.
Marc:One of the things that stops me from doing things I'm adverse to is you grew up with that fucking show.
Marc:I don't know what that show was.
Guest:Oh, Double Dare.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No idea.
Guest:I mean, that's true, but it wasn't like he was some special character in my life and in a lot of people's lives.
Guest:I just knew you would have no frame of reference for the show at all.
Marc:Well, yeah, but also it turns out, you know, we were sort of leaning into this idea about this, you know, OCD in the face of that and also his near-death experiences, but that didn't turn out to be what the talk was about.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, no, it was more a very typical, like, show-based story from a level of a comic trying to succeed outside of just being a comic.
Marc:And all that shit about someone wanting to be a rabbi or this or that.
Marc:Yeah, he might have said that once.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:You know, like, it's not, he chose to add that to his story.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, and he does.
Marc:Sure, I wanted to be a rabbi, too.
Marc:I wanted to be a fucking astronaut.
Marc:I don't put it in my press material.
Yeah.
Marc:Anytime you read press on somebody, it's like, I just can't understand how my press release from 30 years ago is still being used by people.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, I saw like a plug on me for a show I got coming up in San Diego with the opening line of a press release.
Marc:I didn't even mention the podcast.
Marc:Oh, is it?
Marc:Marc Maron has been doing stand-up and writing and this and that for over 30 years.
Marc:No mention of the podcast.
Marc:I'm like, who the fuck is putting this shit out?
Guest:I guarantee they just grabbed the last one they had from however long ago.
Marc:I can't control pictures.
Marc:I've got new pictures and people are just like, where the fuck they even get that?
Marc:They do a Google search and they take the first one that comes up.
Guest:Yeah, no, that's true.
Guest:I know that's true.
Guest:We've been yelled at for doing that ourselves sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I want to talk about an episode that you and I talked on the phone after you did it for probably about an hour.
Guest:We talked for about as long as the episode itself happened.
Guest:And in fact, it was the one that made me think, why are we not recording this?
Guest:Like, we should just record what we talk about when these guests come over and there's a lot to talk about when they leave.
Guest:And that was episode 1440 with William Shatner.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's another guy that, you know, he, he was so funny and so onto himself.
Marc:And I, and I, but I, we had heard things where it's like, it could go either way.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, uh, but I just, I just came out punching and he, he likes to get hit.
Yeah.
Guest:It was, I had said this to you before you did the talk, and it wound up being exactly true, is that I was like, I think this is going to have the dynamic of you and your dad.
Guest:And the other thing that I likened it to was Michael Lerner.
Guest:I was like, remember how when Michael Lerner was on your show?
Guest:And I remember this, that I came by and did the, you know, to visit you on the set.
Guest:like the week after Michael Lerner was on your show playing your mom's boyfriend, essentially John in real life.
Guest:And everyone on the set hated the guy.
Guest:Just absolutely were like, that was the worst experience ever.
Guest:This guy was terrible.
Guest:And like, you were sitting there, we're like eating lunch and you're like laughing at everyone's terrible stories about the guy.
Guest:And you're like, yeah, I liked him.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, he was a fuck.
Marc:And Shatner, I don't have that experience with him.
Marc:But Michael Lerner, he was a fuck, but he was a fuck I understood.
Marc:And even though he tried to sabotage me in scenes, and he tried to take everything that was in his trailer and things that were on the set, like, you know, what's going on with this plant?
Marc:I'm like, what are you talking about?
But...
Marc:And he took a dump in Video Village in the condo.
Marc:It was so terrifying.
Marc:It was just a real monster.
Marc:But it was like people get to a certain place in their life where all that stuff becomes ridiculous because you know it's why he's where he's at.
Marc:You know that he can't let it go.
Marc:And you know that he's going to just keep doing this.
Marc:And on some level...
Marc:He had greatness, that guy.
Marc:I'll forgive him for almost anything because of Barton Fink.
Marc:And that's the thing that sunk him.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:The ego of it.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:And that that's in that ego.
Marc:He's this aging, weird, you know, nasty fucker.
Marc:And God rest his soul, by the way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:God rest his soul.
Marc:But he but like, you know, as those guys get old and it all gets behind him and they're still the same ego wise.
Marc:It's a comedic character to me.
Marc:Yes, that was.
Guest:And that was Shatner.
Guest:Which you didn't have the same reverence for him or anything like that.
Guest:But I think you enjoyed him in the character of this 90-year-old who thinks of himself that way.
Marc:But the difference between him and Lerner is that Shatner is way onto himself.
Marc:I mean, he may be reputed as being difficult, but he knows exactly what's funny about him.
Marc:You know, he's not, he's not, you're not laughing at him.
Guest:Well, also his natural contrarian way is, I assume the thing that most people take issue with.
Guest:Yeah, but that's, it's innately childish.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And you...
Guest:know how to deal with it like that's like going right back at your dad for something like your dad coming up with some harebrained thing and you're like what you're gonna own a walmart what like you know and just busting his balls about it and that was exactly the dynamic with with him where he was like does anybody say take that tack anymore what did why do you take a tack
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, and also, like, they have no, they just want attention.
Marc:And, you know, they want to, you know, be provoked.
Marc:They're poking is what they're doing.
Marc:They poke.
Marc:And depending on your level of respect or what the dynamic is, you could take that poke and be like, oh, this guy's an asshole.
Marc:Or you just poke back a little bit and then everything just falls apart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that was my favorite thing was that all of the, you were like kind of pressing him on this idea that he's got this terrible reputation.
Guest:And he's like, I do not.
Guest:And like, you know, you're like, but what about this?
Guest:And he's like, one guy that I worked with one time, one guy said this thing and it's been following me around for 60 years.
Guest:It's clearly George Takei who he won't name, but like, that's, that's the one guy responsible in his mind for this reputation thing.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, the thing that really, what was amazing about him is that, you know, he will take any job.
Marc:He'll sell almost anything because he just wants to work.
Marc:Whatever moment he had where he thought he was going to be a great actor, he knew enough to know that he wasn't.
Marc:And then, you know, he did Star Trek forever and that put him on the map.
Marc:But he also knew after that, no matter what it was he was going to have to do to make money, he was going to do it.
Guest:And he's going to sell the hell out of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's this amazing part in that talk where he's talking about his NFTs.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That he's got coming out.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Too late.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's two years late on NFTs, but he's still, he's selling it like it's, he just struck a wheel.
Guest:Ooh, it's going to be amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And with this NFT, there's this collectible NFT.
Guest:And you'll get this collectible version of me that's physical.
Guest:So you have the NFT, which is digital, and then this collectible, which would be a mirror of the NFT.
Guest:And you're like, so it's an action figure?
Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, well, for some people it will be, but it's a collectible figure.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:He's pitching me, you know, half of what he understood about what was pitched to him.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And you immediately clocked that it was a toy for children.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That is definitely one of my favorite highlights of the entire time we've done the show for 14 years.
Marc:I was nervous about that because it's better if I don't have the full respect necessary for somebody who is as singular.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was never a Trekkie, and I always saw him as sort of a character.
Marc:So it's always better with mythic people if I half don't give a fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, see, that's the thing.
Guest:I was never worried about that one, about it being good.
Guest:I knew it was going to be good.
Guest:I was worried, is it going to be good because of, like, Gallagher reasons?
Guest:Like, is this just going to—
Guest:Go completely off the rails, right?
Marc:Well, that's a whole thing that you don't get to see usually.
Marc:When I got to walk these guys into my house and out of my house, there's a moment there where we're both being charming.
Marc:Whatever it is, either we're being human or we're being charming or we have those first few beats.
Marc:Sometimes if people linger...
Marc:in the house too long.
Marc:Then I'm like, you know, like, okay, just let's just wait a minute.
Marc:Just hold on to this.
Marc:I'll get you the coffee and we'll go out there.
Marc:But, but there is a dynamic that happens immediately between me and anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And in that, in that 30 seconds to two minutes, you know, I know where it's going to, I know it's settled in dude.
Marc:It's done before we even hit the mics.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's why it's such a weird thing about what happened with the Ben Kingsley episode, which was just shortly after that.
Guest:It's only about two and a half weeks later or so.
Guest:And you had that with him.
Guest:It felt like when you were telling me how everything played out, he showed up.
Guest:It wasn't totally weird.
Guest:It was like he was talking to you about your flowers or something outside.
Marc:It was totally weird.
Marc:It was?
Marc:It was, because I could tell when he walked in, and it's something I know from back in the day, and it happens occasionally now.
Marc:He was clearly, what the fuck is this?
Marc:It's beneath me, whatever it is.
Marc:I knew that when he got to my house in his suit, and he walked up to his publicist.
Marc:I knew from his body language and from his dumb face that...
Marc:You know, he was like, this is... Why am I even here?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Why am I even here?
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:And then with the flowers, which he was dickish about, yeah, I'm like, I did the lavender.
Marc:He's like, well, I said, I think it's French.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:This is English.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:It was...
Marc:It was just, you know, bare minimum politeness.
Marc:And when he wanted water and I brought out a can of the liquid death and he said, do you have a glass?
Marc:And I said, I had a mug.
Marc:I was like, it's fucking over, dude.
Marc:It's over.
Marc:You knew in that moment.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, right away.
Marc:And then it was confirmed after the Jessica Chastain thing.
Marc:And I'm like, it took every...
Marc:inch of my professionalism and my graciousness to not be like, we don't have to do this because I didn't.
Marc:And I, and I don't ultimately know what we would have had to lose with that.
Marc:The publicist was mad anyways.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we wouldn't, we wouldn't have lost anything.
Guest:In fact, I, you know, I wouldn't have had a problem if you had done that.
Guest:I think that the fact that you did it and that we presented it the way we did, which was, I think gracious, like, yeah,
Guest:We, you know, we said this is how it went.
Guest:This is what you're hearing.
Guest:And you can judge for yourself.
Marc:Look, I know that other interviewers have had this experience with him.
Marc:And in his mind, I'm just an interviewer.
Marc:He doesn't fucking know me.
Marc:He was told to do this.
Marc:But, you know, to treat me like a fucking moron is a different thing.
Marc:And to treat me disrespectfully and refuse to engage in any way other than how you decide to engage in my goddamn house...
Marc:Fuck you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, at least charming enough to make me accept that, uh, you know, you're just going to tell this story, but I'm going to enjoy it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, the interesting thing was that the charm was turned on when the, when everything was done.
Guest:But that's such a dumb trick.
Marc:You know, it's like, it's like, um,
Marc:Like, you know, well, that's too extreme, but it's after somebody abuses you for an hour, gets away with it.
Marc:And you're clearly like, you know, you've you've abided by the abuse.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then they go like, well, that was fun.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, I mean, people might think that we started to kind of pull back on having actors on and that because there was a strike and we couldn't get them.
Guest:That's not really true.
Guest:It was really after that Ben Kingsley episode, and those of you who've listened to the Friday show, maybe you've heard me talk about this with Chris.
Guest:We made an active change to the way we were booking guests.
Guest:I sat down with the bookers.
Guest:over Zoom and made us go through the list that they were working on of people that we had approved for the show.
Guest:And there were cases of people like Ben Kingsley who had been approved years ago, maybe because of some particular project they were doing that was interesting.
Guest:And we said, yeah, we'll have them on to talk about that.
Guest:And it didn't happen, but the contact with the publicist stayed in the pipeline.
Guest:And so then years later, we wind up getting re-engaged and go, oh, okay, well, yeah, sure, we'll have them on for this thing.
Guest:We don't know what it is, which he didn't even talk about in the interview, really, despite you trying to engage on that movie.
Guest:That we kind of wanted to do away with.
Guest:So we kind of like zeroed out the booking sheet, made it so that like...
Guest:anyone that had been approved in the past is like no longer approved.
Guest:And let's start from scratch with kind of approving who we're interested in right now.
Guest:And you know what wound up happening from that?
Guest:I think in the best way, um, was not just, you know, conversations with people we've had on before, which are great, you know, people you can re-engage with.
Guest:We did a lot more kind of repeat guests and that, but yeah,
Guest:conversations with people who are just thinking about things or writing about things or talking about things that have nothing to do with show business or entertainment.
Guest:And I'm thinking about three in particular that we had in short order.
Guest:It was that guy, Robert Duffy, who we had on to talk about conspiracies in the US and Jeff Charlotte to talk about the onset of fascism.
Guest:And Naomi Klein to talk about, you know, what she calls the mirror world and this idea of kind of parallel tracks of cultural living going on at once and what that's leading us toward.
Guest:And all three of those kind of connected as a conversation that really, I think, made it made me feel I don't know how you feel about this.
Guest:It made me feel like we were doing some of our most vital stuff together.
Guest:During the time of the year when everyone else was shut down entertainment wise, like there were no talk shows going on because of the strikes.
Marc:Well, the thing about those interviews is, is that you and I used to do those interviews a lot at Air America.
Marc:And yeah.
Marc:You know, this show has been not necessarily apolitical, but it's not been our focus outside of when I felt that we needed to talk about it.
Marc:And you agreed in relation to the Trump presidency in a personal way.
Marc:But it's always been a personal show.
Marc:But you and I are...
Marc:personally interested in that stuff, and some things really lock in with me and have for decades.
Marc:Christian fascism is one.
Marc:Conspiracy theories is another.
Marc:And I was sort of on that tip long before QAnon.
Marc:And someone like Naomi Klein, who—
Marc:has always been impressive.
Marc:And No Logo was a brilliant book.
Marc:And certainly in the world of my interests in terms of impact on culture and what's really happening.
Marc:So for me, and I think for you as well, it was sort of a way to do what we really cut our teeth on in doing
Marc:Without really being, you know, right or left per se.
Marc:Yeah, they were not polemics, these interviews.
Marc:It was exploring, you know, researched and journalistic approaches to ideas that are undermining our world.
Marc:So that's why they became important.
Marc:That's why they felt important and that they were the best work we'd done.
Marc:Because...
Marc:These are deep interests that you and I have, and we don't really find the way necessarily to engage them, certainly not in a triple shot like that and how they all weave together.
Marc:But it's nice for us to be able to kind of put our stamp on what is happening in the world without getting involved in the polemic, but also, you know, talking to well-sourced thinkers about those things, because
Marc:I think about that shit all the time.
Marc:And when Naomi came on, I'm like, oh, my God, I was nervous because I've always been a fan of hers and also find her to be just an amazing woman and thinker.
Marc:So I really had to get up to speed.
Marc:It was a nervousness in a different way.
Marc:I'm like, man, I got to read this book.
Marc:I got to do some underlining.
Marc:All of those guys, I read their books.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:So those were great for me.
Marc:I felt like they were important.
Guest:Yeah, and honestly, I look back at the period of time that was occurring during the strike, and there were no episodes that I thought were half-assed or unnecessary or we were just filling time until we could get back to the regular booking methods.
Guest:It was such a validation of the type of show that we have
Guest:That we could just keep going without a bump.
Guest:And we didn't have to rely on this steady stream of the kind of entertainment complex that churns guests through shows like ours.
Marc:Right, but we were also fortunate in that it timed out with my exhaustion of that stuff anyway.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yeah, no, I mean, it was, it was like, like I said, that Ben Kingsley thing happened before the strike.
Guest:So we were already moving in a new direction of how to get guests for the show.
Guest:We were going to be permitting a lot more repeat guests than we had in the past.
Guest:We were going to, you know, seek out areas that we didn't normally look at, you know, in terms of looking at people who are writing things and more musicians, those kind of areas.
Guest:I think a guy like Laraji, we might not have considered just because of not having the time or space to do him at a time where we weren't looking at that stuff.
Marc:Well, no, it's good.
Marc:And also, we established in our minds the fact that we can always find people to talk to and to find people that...
Marc:a lot of people don't know about and to find people that have done kind of amazing work in their fields, whether they're thinkers or expressive artists that really no one fucking knows about.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:Including me sometimes going in and the other conversation we didn't talk about, which was also kind of, I think for both of us, uh, really kind of, you know, showed us, uh,
Marc:You know, something.
Marc:But you were always sort of onto it.
Marc:But that that Sam Elliott conversation and how that went.
Marc:Was that this year?
Marc:That was that was two years ago, I think.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, forget it then.
Guest:No, you can bring it up because what do you what do you what do you mean by it?
Marc:Well, just say like, you know, that was the best interview that guy was ever going to do in his fucking life.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, nobody was going to go that deep into Sam Elliott.
Marc:I did the fucking work and I found a way to present him as, you know, a force, as an actor and as somebody who was there throughout it all and did some pretty great work.
Marc:And the whole thing gets undermined because of what?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I...
Guest:So there was a string of that happening at that exact time that I felt really lousy about.
Guest:It was the Sam Elliott interview.
Guest:And then just shortly after that, we had Peter Dinklage on.
Guest:That became a whole thing because he talked about how he didn't like the idea for the new Snow White movie.
Guest:So we got all this.
Guest:And it was just putting all this heat on the show.
Guest:Like as some type of like Andy Cohen Bravo thing where we're like digging for dirt from people.
Guest:And it's like the last thing we're ever doing is that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's why we have our place, despite whatever people may think how large it looms or not large it looms.
Marc:It's like, I don't even know what Andy Cohen does.
Marc:I don't even know why he is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And to sort of...
Marc:you know, drag us into that orbit, it becomes very apparent why we choose not to do that.
Marc:And you're fairly hypervigilant about it.
Marc:I don't even notice when something I say or do or an exchange that happens on this show is going to turn into, you know, instant global garbage.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's well, that's not particularly a skill I'm proud of to have the radar that detects total nonsense.
Guest:But yes, I generally can spot it.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it makes me proud of our place in the world.
Marc:You know, I don't even know because like, you know, I don't I really don't.
Marc:I don't know what people think I do or what, but I don't engage with numbers.
Marc:I don't Google search myself.
Marc:I don't know really what's going on.
Marc:I don't know our rankings until you tell me, you know, well, this happened or look, we got this ranking on this thing.
Marc:I no longer obsess about any of that shit.
Marc:And so I'm always surprised whether it's good or bad in terms of how the show is received or goes viral.
Guest:Yeah, well, I will say, I think that the output that we've had this past year ranks right up there with any other full calendar year of the show.
Guest:And so I know that if you're listening to this, you're subscribing.
Guest:It means you want extra stuff, and that's what we're giving to you here.
Guest:But if for some reason you haven't listened to those earlier episodes that we mentioned, I think they all stand up.
Guest:And that's one of the things we set out to do from day one.
Guest:was make sure that all the episodes are kind of evergreen.
Guest:You could listen to them at any time.
Guest:And I don't think just because Michelle Yeoh was out here doing press for the Oscars back during award season last year, that is not a specific Oscar talk.
Guest:That is a great portrait of her and her life.
Guest:And I feel that way about so many of the episodes that we do.
Marc:Well, that's what we do.
Marc:I mean, it's like I, you know, I knew why Joel Edgerton was here today.
Marc:And I've grown savvy at integrating what they're going to trying to or here for to plug, you know, but, you know, I know almost always that it's that's not going to be the conversation unless it's worthy of that.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And being unworthy of it doesn't mean it's bad, but it's just it's not going to be a rich source of conversation.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It doesn't swamp the rest of their life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's gotten different, you know, over the years, but it's still the same, you know, technique of, you know, if somebody is here to promote conversation.
Marc:a piece of shit, but they had a great life, you know, I'll find some way to find a little diamond in the shit.
Guest:I will say, though, it's been quite a long time, I think, unless I'm forgetting something.
Guest:Like, I think we've been pretty vigilant about not having things on that you don't, at least in some way, appreciate.
Marc:But also, I've been doing more...
Marc:I'm engaging with more homework than I ever have.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I find it necessary.
Marc:At some point, it did change, not to mention that Maggie Gyllenhaal moment where I tried to fake it.
Marc:But I'll watch or read or really do sort of a deep dive into people's work.
Marc:And I think I've always done it.
Marc:But a lot of times this is the way I get exposed to stuff that I wouldn't have watched otherwise.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:And that's good for me as a person.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:One of the things, like a nice byproduct of the job is that you get to grow culturally and in your appreciation of things that you might otherwise have ignored.
Guest:You probably never would have watched that guy Blitz Bazawooli's movie.
Marc:Yeah, and it blew my mind.
Marc:But also, I've also grown...
Marc:I've also grown adept at knowing how much I have to take in, especially the musician.
Marc:And I still overdo it.
Marc:I don't know what I'm looking for by engaging with an entire catalog of somebody who's done 20 records.
Marc:And I don't always go through all of it.
Marc:But whatever it is, I know innately and from experience that, you know, no song or record is going to be the key to this conversation.
Marc:If I don't know a hit song, it's not going to make or break a conversation.
Marc:But somehow or another, over an arc of sound, I can feel and sense production differences and approach differences.
Marc:And then it kind of informs a bigger conversation.
Marc:And I guess that's just by virtue of doing this for so long.
Guest:Yeah, well, because then a lot of times it winds up happening is you bring up something that doesn't get brought up to the person a lot, and they say, yeah, that's my favorite one, you know?
Marc:Yeah, it's weird how I can hit that one sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, again, I think I forget it as much as you do that, you know, as we approach doing 1,500 of these, it's like, oh, yeah, when you do it over and over again, some things become second nature.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would be very hard for me to have to explain to someone how I do my job because now it's just kind of – it just happens.
Marc:Yeah, but also the fact that we don't –
Marc:We don't rest on any sort of laurels.
Marc:And, yeah, the skill set is there, but we're not hacking ourselves.
Marc:And there's no set methodology or pattern to what I do.
Marc:You know, I approach everybody as an individual.
Marc:And a lot of things have gone by the wayside, things that, you know, became taglines or ways of...
Marc:boxing me into my own thing.
Marc:You know, who are your guys?
Marc:What's your dad do?
Marc:I mean, it comes up certain times, but there was a period there where I had a certain number of tropes or tricks that I would engage in, but they've all seemed to have fallen to the wayside in terms of repetition.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And I think part of that is now you have a kind of innate sense of how someone is going to respond to you, what kind of line of questioning or kind of approach they're going to need based on their personality.
Guest:And again, that stuff's not taught.
Guest:It's just through repetition.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, what's great is I feel like that most of the tricks that I kind of or the tools that I built up that kind of wrote us through the mid period of what we do have all been integrated.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That they don't like I'm not aware of of using them anymore because they they're not necessary.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I would agree with that.
Guest:Well, and I would also say, I think, you know, to kind of plant a flag, I think this year was probably like an important year for our kind of ongoing development as a show.
Guest:Just being kind of encountering those type of challenges we did and adjusting to them and still kind of...
Guest:landing where we want to land with these episodes and with these shows.
Guest:And I don't feel ashamed of coming on here and spending an hour talking about how I think we did a good job.
Guest:I think it's I think it's worthwhile to do.
Guest:And if you're you're buying this full Marin subscription, I hope you've enjoyed it as well, because, you know, this is the whole reason we keep doing this is that we know people out there still listen to it.
Marc:Yeah, and it still makes me nervous.
Marc:Yeah, well, I guess as long as that's happening.
Marc:Not to people listening, but I just know...
Marc:The weird thing about doing this for this long is that there's no way to autopilot this shit, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Not for me.
Marc:No.
Marc:Not for me.
Marc:Not for an hour, an hour and a half.
Marc:There's no way for me to kind of not go all in on every one of these conversations.
Marc:And that's wild, exhausting, but it definitely pays off and I'm proud of it.
Marc:And I do think we did good work, definitely this year.
Guest:Well, congrats, man.
Guest:And we will do it again next year.
Guest:Great.
Guest:All right, buddy.