BONUS Extra Ed O'Neill

Episode 734003 • Released June 11, 2024 • Speakers detected

00:00:09Marc:Hello, bonus people.

00:00:12Marc:What's going on?

00:00:13Marc:What you're about to hear is some other stories from Ed O'Neill.

00:00:19Marc:We talked for about two hours, and it was a great talk, and we tried to keep the episodes manageable for listeners, so we generally cut it down a bit.

00:00:30Marc:So these were the parts that didn't factor into Ed's bigger story, but they were still fun tangents about all kinds of stuff.

00:00:38Marc:I mean, there were sidebars about blues music, David Mamet.

00:00:42Marc:There's some more stuff about Donald Sterling.

00:00:45Marc:We talked about Ed's honorary degree and the writer John Milius.

00:00:50Marc:There was just so much stuff.

00:00:53Marc:We thought we'd take it and make it available for you.

00:00:57Marc:Yes, you are the special ones.

00:01:01Marc:So here's some more stories from Ed O'Neill.

00:01:07Marc:You know, I can handle a couple of the basic blues harp things.

00:01:17Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:01:18Guest:I know John Sebastian.

00:01:19Guest:John's dad was classical, you know.

00:01:22Marc:Yeah, John Sebastian.

00:01:23Marc:Like, yeah, people love him, you know.

00:01:25Marc:Is he still around?

00:01:26Guest:Yeah, I think he lives in Woodstock.

00:01:28Guest:We've got a family there.

00:01:30Guest:He had an instructional...

00:01:32Guest:harp tape with Paul Butterfield years ago.

00:01:35Guest:Oh, Butterfield was a real deal, that guy.

00:01:37Guest:He was great.

00:01:39Guest:He was strung out.

00:01:41Guest:And a tough kid, Chicago.

00:01:43Guest:Yeah.

00:01:46Guest:A great harp player.

00:01:48Marc:Yeah, but he was one of those guys where there was that generation...

00:01:54Marc:That were hanging around those guys in Chicago.

00:01:56Marc:Yeah.

00:01:57Marc:So, you know, there was a group of white kids, Bloomfield.

00:02:00Marc:Yeah.

00:02:01Marc:You know, Butterfield, Elvin Bishop.

00:02:03Marc:Yes.

00:02:04Marc:That Butterfield Blues band.

00:02:06Marc:Sam Lay.

00:02:06Marc:Yeah.

00:02:07Marc:But they came up with those old guys.

00:02:09Marc:They came up with the guys that came up from the crossroads.

00:02:12Marc:Yeah.

00:02:12Marc:They meant business.

00:02:14Marc:Yeah.

00:02:14Marc:They weren't just these weird-

00:02:16Marc:Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want to be a bitter old man, but you see some of these kids on Instagram and stuff, just wizards of whatever instrument.

00:02:25Marc:And it makes you sort of go like, well, I have no natural ability.

00:02:29Marc:I've worked my entire life to be able to play this shitty way I play.

00:02:32Marc:And these kids are just born with it.

00:02:35Guest:Well, you know, again, I think it's...

00:02:40Guest:Like a necessity, you know.

00:02:41Guest:Yeah.

00:02:42Guest:It's all they did because that was their only way out.

00:02:45Marc:I guess so.

00:02:45Guest:I think that can change you a bit.

00:02:48Marc:Yeah, but then the argument always becomes like, well, I got, you know, these kids don't have soul.

00:02:52Marc:You know, they don't, you know, they can't really feel it.

00:02:56Marc:They're just mimics.

00:02:57Guest:Yeah.

00:02:58Guest:I'm sad.

00:02:59Guest:Yeah.

00:03:00Guest:I never bought that one, by the way.

00:03:01Guest:You didn't?

00:03:02Guest:No, because I think that the soul can come through.

00:03:06Guest:great technique.

00:03:07Guest:Sure.

00:03:08Guest:And then you're going to relax into that and you can play something.

00:03:10Guest:Sure.

00:03:11Guest:But it's like, it's like, you know, and I used to think that the old time blues guys sucked.

00:03:17Guest:Yeah.

00:03:18Guest:And I never said that, you know.

00:03:19Marc:Well, what kind of music were you listening to to make that assessment?

00:03:22Marc:Well, it was rhythm and blues.

00:03:23Marc:Okay, so you liked the tight kind of horns.

00:03:26Guest:Well, yeah.

00:03:26Guest:It had moved by the time I was a, you know, young guy.

00:03:30Guest:Yeah.

00:03:31Guest:And so I thought, what is this chicken yard blues singer?

00:03:33Guest:Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

00:03:34Guest:You know.

00:03:35Guest:And a hon, hon.

00:03:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:37Guest:This is bullshit.

00:03:37Guest:Right.

00:03:38Guest:And then one time, I just stumbled onto Sun House, a live recording of Death Letter Bulls.

00:03:44Guest:Oh, my God.

00:03:45Guest:And I think he was drunk.

00:03:47Marc:Yeah.

00:03:47Marc:Playing that.

00:03:48Marc:Oh, so the later one.

00:03:49Marc:Was it a video?

00:03:49Marc:It was a video.

00:03:50Marc:I know that one.

00:03:51Marc:Yeah.

00:03:52Marc:And I heard that, and I said, oh, wait a minute.

00:03:55Marc:and then you know what i mean it was like oh god damn what i missed it thinking about right yeah i know that video that was like it was a it was a series put out by like our hooli records or something yeah and it was a lot of those old blues guys black and white yeah yeah yeah i mean that's a menacing thing that that son house one and howlin wolf yeah oh god yeah now wolf was a was a wonderful harmonica player sure

00:04:21Guest:And he didn't have, he wasn't like a virtuoso, like he wasn't Butterfield.

00:04:26Guest:But the way he played to accompany his singing was phenomenal.

00:04:30Guest:Well, that's all you need.

00:04:31Marc:That's all you need.

00:04:32Marc:That's the misunderstanding.

00:04:33Marc:Because I just play, you know, I am not, I don't have a broad palate on the guitar.

00:04:40Marc:Again.

00:04:41Marc:I'm three or four chords.

00:04:43Marc:But you realize, you know, as you get older, it's like every guy you liked,

00:04:47Marc:Was playing three chords.

00:04:49Marc:That's right.

00:04:49Marc:Really.

00:04:50Marc:That's right.

00:04:50Marc:You know, in most of the guitar solos that you remember, not that hard.

00:04:54Marc:No.

00:04:54Guest:They're just what they are.

00:04:56Guest:No.

00:04:56Guest:And it's like B.B.

00:04:57Guest:King, you know, B.B., I met B.B.

00:04:59Guest:because he did Married with Children years ago.

00:05:02Guest:Came in with his bus with all those guys with the suits on.

00:05:04Guest:Sure.

00:05:04Guest:You know, the old guys.

00:05:05Guest:Yeah.

00:05:06Guest:And he said, you know, his thing was bending.

00:05:09Yeah.

00:05:09Marc:Yeah, I know that.

00:05:10Guest:He could bend with his baby finger.

00:05:12Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:05:13Guest:Way before, now they have the, it bends for you now almost.

00:05:18Guest:When he was young, he was the only one who could do that.

00:05:22Marc:He had those licks that were, his timing was great.

00:05:25Marc:Yeah.

00:05:26Marc:So, you know, and he had those, he's a great guitar player, and I don't listen to him a whole lot.

00:05:31Guest:No, I don't either anymore.

00:05:32Guest:Yeah.

00:05:32Guest:I like that other kid, too, now that played with the Allmans.

00:05:36Guest:Oh, Derek?

00:05:38Guest:Derek.

00:05:39Marc:Yeah, I have a slide of his here somewhere.

00:05:42Guest:Oh, that kid can play, man.

00:05:44Marc:Yeah, he played.

00:05:45Marc:And you know what?

00:05:45Marc:He's found this one zone.

00:05:48Marc:Like, he'll play everything slide.

00:05:50Marc:He won't even play.

00:05:51Marc:And he's taken it to this whole other level.

00:05:55Marc:Yeah, he was in here.

00:05:57Marc:I've talked to him.

00:05:58Marc:He's a good guy.

00:05:59Marc:That was a rough road to be a prodigy and then sort of a kind of circus act and then have to own it and make good on it.

00:06:08Marc:Yeah, then he's sitting in there with Clapton.

00:06:10Marc:Well, now, yeah, because he stuck with it and he became great.

00:06:14Marc:But he was going out there playing that stuff with the Allman Brothers when he was like 10.

00:06:17Marc:I know.

00:06:18Marc:And that could have been the end.

00:06:21Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:06:22Marc:It probably should have been, you know, I don't know.

00:06:25Marc:Like, you know, it's hard.

00:06:27Marc:It's like child actors.

00:06:28Marc:What are you going to do?

00:06:29Marc:Right.

00:06:30Marc:You know what I mean?

00:06:31Marc:Like either you're going to make the well, it's a little different because that's that's about looks.

00:06:36Marc:But with good with the musicianship, he just stuck with it and became great.

00:06:39Guest:Did you know a guy named Mike Finnegan?

00:06:42Guest:Oh, maybe.

00:06:42Guest:Wait, what's he from?

00:06:44Guest:Big Mike Finnegan.

00:06:45Guest:He played the B3 Hammond organ.

00:06:47Guest:No.

00:06:48Guest:He was a white guy.

00:06:49Guest:He was from, I believe, Toronto, Ohio.

00:06:52Guest:Yeah.

00:06:53Guest:And when I was a young guy, I used to go to a club called the Hollywood Bowl.

00:06:58Guest:Yeah.

00:06:58Guest:No, the Hollywood, something like that.

00:07:01Guest:Yeah.

00:07:02Guest:And he was playing.

00:07:03Guest:He had a band.

00:07:04Guest:I didn't know who his name was.

00:07:05Marc:I feel like I know the name.

00:07:06Marc:Yeah.

00:07:07Guest:He had a band like in those days was like the Serfs.

00:07:09Guest:Right.

00:07:10Guest:S-E-R.

00:07:10Marc:What are we talking about?

00:07:11Marc:The 60s?

00:07:12Guest:Early 60s?

00:07:13Guest:Early 70s maybe.

00:07:14Guest:Oh, okay.

00:07:14Guest:Yeah.

00:07:15Marc:Yeah.

00:07:16Guest:And it was kind of a rhythm and blues band.

00:07:18Guest:Yeah.

00:07:19Guest:And he was on the, you know, the organ.

00:07:23Guest:And I listened to him and I thought, Youngstown had great music.

00:07:26Guest:Yeah.

00:07:27Guest:And I said- That's where he grew up.

00:07:28Guest:Yeah.

00:07:29Guest:And I said, man, this guy can-

00:07:30Guest:Oh, man, this guy's great on the organ, and he can sing his ass off.

00:07:34Marc:Yeah.

00:07:35Guest:And that was it.

00:07:36Guest:I lost track of him.

00:07:37Guest:So way, way later, I'm living out here, and Sheila E., I knew, because I read you had a guy, Escovito.

00:07:47Guest:Alejandro, yeah.

00:07:47Guest:You did him.

00:07:48Guest:Well, I knew Pete.

00:07:49Guest:Yeah.

00:07:50Guest:Oh, his uncle?

00:07:51Guest:Yeah, and his daughter was Sheila E. Yeah, exactly.

00:07:54Guest:So she called me and said, hey, you should hear this band at the Baked Potato.

00:07:59Guest:It's called the Jones Boys.

00:08:01Guest:Yeah.

00:08:01Guest:They're all AA.

00:08:02Guest:Yeah.

00:08:02Guest:Right?

00:08:02Guest:Yeah.

00:08:03Guest:And I thought, AA, oh God, you know.

00:08:05Guest:But I'll meet you.

00:08:06Guest:So I met her there.

00:08:07Marc:They're all sober guys.

00:08:09Guest:All sober guys.

00:08:09Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:08:10Guest:And the band started playing and they were great.

00:08:14Guest:Yeah.

00:08:15Guest:And the organ player.

00:08:17Guest:Yeah.

00:08:17Guest:Now I'm on a break, he comes over.

00:08:18Guest:Yeah.

00:08:20Guest:And I said, I've heard you before, man.

00:08:22Guest:He said, I doubt it.

00:08:25Guest:Yeah.

00:08:25Guest:I said, where are you from?

00:08:27Guest:And he said, Toronto, Ohio.

00:08:28Guest:I said,

00:08:29Guest:you ever play in the holiday bowl yeah yeah man i used to gig there i said jesus christ i used to watch you when i was like 23 years old you know it's phenomenal yeah one of the best blues and he was playing with steven stills oh yeah and he played with the baked potato yeah and he was an etta james guy you know etta used to well you saw steven at the baked potato no i saw steven uh christina applegate

00:08:55Guest:She used to call Stephen her uncle.

00:08:58Guest:Yeah.

00:08:58Guest:And I don't think it was a blood uncle.

00:09:00Guest:Right.

00:09:00Guest:But they were family friends.

00:09:01Guest:Right.

00:09:02Guest:I saw him in London.

00:09:04Guest:Yeah.

00:09:05Guest:With Crosby, Stills, Nash.

00:09:07Guest:Yeah.

00:09:08Guest:And I asked him about Finnegan.

00:09:09Guest:He said, oh, man, they say he's a side man.

00:09:12Guest:He ain't a fucking side man.

00:09:13Guest:Yeah.

00:09:13Guest:This motherfucker's great.

00:09:15Guest:Right.

00:09:16Guest:He's the best white blues singer.

00:09:17Guest:He said, best blues singer, period.

00:09:18Guest:Fuck the white or black.

00:09:20Yeah.

00:09:20Guest:And he covers Death Letter Blues.

00:09:23Marc:Oh, he does.

00:09:24Guest:Finnegan does.

00:09:24Guest:If you Google him, Finnegan, Death Letter Blues, and he does a lot of blues stuff.

00:09:29Marc:Yeah.

00:09:30Marc:Well, it's a weird genre because blues, it's got a specific language, but in terms of popularity, it's...

00:09:40Marc:The problem with blues is that any idiot can play him.

00:09:43Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:09:45Marc:And any idiot does.

00:09:46Marc:And I think it's kind of watered down the appeal of it.

00:09:49Marc:Probably so.

00:09:49Marc:You've got to be a real blues freak.

00:09:51Marc:Yeah.

00:09:53Marc:There's a lot of good blues guys out there now, but you've got to be locked into that.

00:09:57Marc:You've got to love that music enough to know that it's kind of all the same, and you're waiting for that guy to do something different.

00:10:03Marc:Yeah.

00:10:03Marc:Well, it's kind of like jazz.

00:10:05Marc:Well, yeah, jazz is more complicated because you can't even idea.

00:10:07Marc:Yeah, but nobody knows what the fuck they're doing.

00:10:09Marc:Well, they do, but I don't know if anybody likes it.

00:10:14Marc:I guess.

00:10:14Guest:They definitely know what they're doing.

00:10:16Marc:Exactly.

00:10:17Marc:But it's not a broad appeal thing, whereas blues kind of is.

00:10:21Marc:But like, you know, blues is on commercials.

00:10:23Marc:It's on everything.

00:10:24Marc:You know, it's like, it's omnipresent.

00:10:30Marc:And it's not, I think there's not a lot of- And it's always been like that.

00:10:34Guest:It kind of has.

00:10:35Marc:Pretty much.

00:10:35Marc:I mean, but there was a period there, right, during the British invasion and when those guys.

00:10:40Guest:John Mayall and all those guys.

00:10:41Marc:And Clapton and Peter Green, all those guys, when they, in the Stones, when they interpreted it and brought it back here, then everything blows up and it's the foundation of everything.

00:10:50Marc:Yeah.

00:10:51Marc:You know, but then when you return to just bar blues, it's like, you know.

00:10:54Marc:Yeah, right.

00:10:55Marc:Like, I mean, how hard do you have to fight yourself to put together a little combo to play your harp?

00:11:00Guest:All you do is be in the right key.

00:11:05Guest:But have you done that?

00:11:06Guest:You can play anything.

00:11:07Guest:Yeah.

00:11:07Guest:Have you done that, though?

00:11:08Guest:Yeah, I've done that.

00:11:09Guest:Not for an audience.

00:11:11Guest:I do it for my own amusement.

00:11:12Guest:Oh, good.

00:11:12Guest:That reminded me when you said you do it like a hobby.

00:11:15Guest:That's what I do.

00:11:15Marc:Right.

00:11:16Marc:But the thing about the blues is every once in a while you see a celebrity, you have a certain ilk.

00:11:21Marc:They're like, I'm going to have a blues band.

00:11:23Yeah.

00:11:23Guest:And then all of a sudden, you've got to put up with that.

00:11:25Guest:Well, that was like Goodman and Willis.

00:11:28Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:30Guest:Come on, guys.

00:11:30Marc:Yeah, I know, but it's like, you know, just do this.

00:11:33Guest:Belushi, Belushi.

00:11:34Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:11:34Marc:Well, Belushi, I think he was pretty earnest.

00:11:36Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:11:37Marc:John was, I think John really wanted to be that.

00:11:40Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:11:41Marc:He did the thing with Cocker and all that.

00:11:43Marc:Oh, that was funny.

00:11:44Guest:It was great.

00:11:44Guest:It was very funny.

00:11:45Guest:Cocker was great.

00:11:46Marc:Yeah, I think he was kind of upset.

00:11:49Marc:From what I understand, he didn't know that Belushi was going to do that.

00:11:53Marc:But Belushi had that in the barrel.

00:11:56Marc:I mean, he'd done it before.

00:11:58Marc:He'd done Cocker before.

00:12:00Guest:Yeah.

00:12:01Guest:You know where he got his samurai from?

00:12:03Guest:Where?

00:12:04Guest:Sid Caesar.

00:12:05Guest:Really?

00:12:06Guest:Yeah.

00:12:06Guest:How do you know that?

00:12:08Guest:Or is this your research?

00:12:09Guest:I did a movie with Carl Reiner.

00:12:11Guest:Okay, yeah.

00:12:12Guest:Carl directed it.

00:12:12Marc:Which one?

00:12:13Guest:Oh, God.

00:12:15Guest:It was with Kirstie Alley and Bill Pullman.

00:12:18Guest:You remember the name?

00:12:19Guest:Sibling rivalry.

00:12:20Guest:Okay.

00:12:21Guest:Yeah.

00:12:22Guest:But Carl said that that was part of Sid's doublespeak.

00:12:29Guest:Oh, okay.

00:12:29Guest:You know how he would do that.

00:12:31Guest:Yeah.

00:12:31Guest:I mean, nobody ever did it before or since.

00:12:34Guest:What was it?

00:12:35Guest:Google, Sid Caesar speaks four languages.

00:12:38Guest:Okay.

00:12:39Guest:He would do Italian, for example.

00:12:41Guest:Sure.

00:12:41Guest:You would swear to God he was from Naples.

00:12:43Marc:But he would actually speak the language?

00:12:45Guest:No, it was nothing.

00:12:46Marc:Just gibberish.

00:12:47Guest:Gibberish.

00:12:47Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:12:48Guest:But you couldn't tell the difference.

00:12:49Guest:I mean, you could really, you know.

00:12:51Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:52Marc:If you were Italian.

00:12:53Guest:Yeah.

00:12:53Guest:Even Italians would say, and I did play it for a couple of Italians, just out of curiosity.

00:12:59Yeah.

00:12:59Guest:One was from Milan.

00:13:00Guest:Yeah.

00:13:01Guest:And she said, she listened to the whole deal.

00:13:03Guest:Yeah.

00:13:04Guest:And it was honoring Bob Hope.

00:13:07Guest:Yeah.

00:13:08Guest:And so every now and then he'd throw in Bob Hope.

00:13:10Guest:Yeah.

00:13:11Guest:And then it was all Italian.

00:13:12Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:13:12Guest:And she said, yeah, he's from the South.

00:13:15Yeah.

00:13:15Guest:So if you play it, you won't believe it.

00:13:21Guest:It's Belushi on steroids.

00:13:25Guest:Yeah.

00:13:26Guest:Okay, so you think that's where he got the comedic character.

00:13:29Guest:Had to.

00:13:29Guest:Yeah.

00:13:30Guest:Had to.

00:13:30Guest:There's nobody else ever did it.

00:13:32Guest:But did Reiner say that?

00:13:33Marc:No.

00:13:34Guest:This is your research.

00:13:35Guest:It's my, well, it's just my, you know.

00:13:37Guest:Your assumption.

00:13:38Guest:Yeah.

00:13:38Marc:Because, I mean, Belushi would have been of an age where, I mean, he's not, it was probably a little still before his time when he was a kid.

00:13:44Guest:Yeah, but I'm sure he saw, you know, the show of shows.

00:13:47Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:48Guest:You know, that was, you know, Caesar was.

00:13:51Marc:Yeah.

00:13:51Marc:So, but like over the course of the career,

00:13:55Marc:I mean, you got a lot of, you know, I mean, you did some leads in movies.

00:13:58Marc:You did all kinds of stuff.

00:13:59Marc:And you did a little bit of TV before Married with Children, right?

00:14:03Guest:Yes.

00:14:04Guest:I did a lot of plays, a lot of theater.

00:14:06Guest:Did Broadway, did off-Broadway.

00:14:08Guest:Was it after Married with Children, though?

00:14:09Guest:Well, I did two series with David Milch.

00:14:14Guest:Yeah.

00:14:14Guest:I did Big Apple and John from Cincinnati.

00:14:17Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:14:17Guest:And I did...

00:14:19Guest:I did stuff for Dave Mamet because I knew Dave back in New York.

00:14:24Guest:Dave is a provocateur.

00:14:26Marc:Well, that's what I always thought, you know, and I know that about him.

00:14:29Marc:I always had an odd issue about how he thought about actors.

00:14:35Marc:Like, you know, any idiot can do this.

00:14:37Marc:Read the script.

00:14:39Guest:He doesn't.

00:14:40Guest:He loves actors.

00:14:43Guest:Because a lot of it is, in a strange sense, magical.

00:14:48Guest:Yeah.

00:14:49Guest:And I don't toss that word around.

00:14:51Guest:I mean, in other words, you're doing something, you have experience, you know your way around the block, you know how to use technique, you know where you should pause and not pause, or you're throwing that in too much or less, and all that stuff you're doing...

00:15:07Guest:You're thinking and you're working.

00:15:10Guest:You're juggling out there.

00:15:13Guest:And sometimes...

00:15:16Guest:Things happen.

00:15:17Guest:You don't have a clue how.

00:15:19Guest:Yeah.

00:15:20Guest:But you go, oh, where'd that come from?

00:15:22Guest:Yeah.

00:15:22Guest:Well, I like to think it comes from the DNA in our line that goes back hundreds of years.

00:15:30Guest:Yeah.

00:15:30Guest:We don't know about that.

00:15:32Guest:Right.

00:15:32Guest:How that influenced.

00:15:33Guest:Anyway, I like to think of that sometimes that way.

00:15:36Guest:Because you can't just be...

00:15:39Guest:Uninflected.

00:15:40Guest:You can do a dialogue that a play can read sometimes better than it's acted.

00:15:45Guest:Yeah.

00:15:46Guest:Which is true if it's acted badly.

00:15:48Marc:Yeah.

00:15:51Marc:But you're saying that there's a magic to writing because you don't know until you write it.

00:15:58Marc:Exactly.

00:15:59Marc:And that there's an equation.

00:16:00Marc:Because when I do stand-up, I develop improvisationally.

00:16:04Marc:So I'll put myself in a position with enough craft in place to have a funny premise but not know where it's going to go.

00:16:13Guest:That's exactly what I'm saying.

00:16:14Marc:Yeah, and then all of a sudden it comes.

00:16:15Marc:And I've noticed this in the last time.

00:16:17Marc:And it just comes in.

00:16:17Marc:Oh.

00:16:18Marc:Yeah, where'd that come from?

00:16:19Marc:Well, you set it up.

00:16:20Marc:Yeah, but you still don't know where.

00:16:22Marc:You don't know where it came from.

00:16:23Guest:It's the best.

00:16:23Marc:That's why you like it.

00:16:24Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:16:25Marc:If it didn't have that, you wouldn't even fucking do it.

00:16:28Marc:I know.

00:16:28Marc:Then it's just math.

00:16:30Marc:Yeah, it's just math.

00:16:31Marc:Yeah.

00:16:32Marc:So there's that.

00:16:33Marc:I don't know what to do.

00:16:35Marc:I was in Santa Monica for a haircut.

00:16:36Marc:I never go down there.

00:16:37Marc:It was a very funny moment with Mamet.

00:16:39Marc:Because I interviewed him years ago.

00:16:41Marc:And, you know, he's walking towards me, and he's not going to know me from one interview, really.

00:16:46Marc:Maybe he would.

00:16:46Marc:But, you know, I know it's him.

00:16:48Marc:You know it's him from a mile away with his walk.

00:16:52Guest:With the chapeau and the whole deal.

00:16:55Guest:Yeah, the whole business.

00:16:56Marc:And he's walking by me.

00:16:58Marc:I go, David Mamet.

00:16:59Marc:And he just goes, yeah, thank you.

00:17:02Yeah.

00:17:02Marc:And I'm like, no, it's me, Mark Maron.

00:17:06Marc:He's like, oh, did you get the new book?

00:17:08Marc:As if we were, I just talked to him.

00:17:09Guest:Right in the middle of the conversation.

00:17:10Guest:Yeah, just out of nowhere.

00:17:11Guest:And I'm like, I didn't get it.

00:17:13Guest:But, you know, whatever.

00:17:14Guest:I'll tell you one thing that's interesting about David, and it's kind of endearing.

00:17:19Guest:I never asked David for advice.

00:17:21Guest:Yeah.

00:17:22Guest:And I never would give him advice, ever.

00:17:26Guest:Yeah.

00:17:26Guest:Because he doesn't like it.

00:17:27Marc:Yeah.

00:17:28Guest:And there was one time, it was a guy who did a movie called Provincetown, and Dave wrote a script about that Chauncey, that mayor from Providence.

00:17:40Guest:who was kind of a gangster or involved with the gangsters.

00:17:44Guest:It was a good script.

00:17:45Guest:And I read it.

00:17:47Guest:We wrote a great book about Chicago.

00:17:49Guest:Yes.

00:17:50Guest:And I read this one.

00:17:51Guest:I liked it.

00:17:52Guest:And I said so.

00:17:53Guest:And he said, well, I sent it to this kid who directed...

00:17:58Guest:A movie with Alec Baldwin that I was almost in until Alec got involved, and then I was not the name that they were in.

00:18:06Guest:So I said, oh, yeah, I know the guy.

00:18:08Guest:I met him.

00:18:09Guest:I met him.

00:18:09Guest:What movie was that?

00:18:10Guest:I forget that.

00:18:11Guest:But it was okay.

00:18:12Guest:It was pretty good.

00:18:13Guest:Yeah.

00:18:14Guest:So he said, yeah, well, I know him because he directed Buffalo, the movie Buffalo.

00:18:18Guest:Yeah.

00:18:19Guest:American Buffalo?

00:18:20Guest:Yeah, American Buffalo.

00:18:21Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:22Guest:And he said, well, the guy hasn't got, I sent it to him two weeks ago or three weeks ago, the script.

00:18:29Guest:We were having lunch.

00:18:30Guest:Yeah.

00:18:32Guest:I said, so you haven't heard from him?

00:18:33Guest:He says, no, I haven't heard from him.

00:18:35Guest:You know, I said, you know, what's that all about?

00:18:38Guest:Yeah.

00:18:39Guest:He's asking me.

00:18:40Guest:Yeah.

00:18:41Guest:I said, well, maybe, who knows?

00:18:43Guest:You know, it could be a lot of things.

00:18:44Guest:Yeah.

00:18:44Guest:Yeah, it could be a lot of things, but, you know, could be he doesn't like it, you know?

00:18:48Guest:Yeah.

00:18:49Guest:You know, it could be, you know, fuck you or something like that.

00:18:51Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:18:52Guest:I said, well, what are you going to do?

00:18:54Guest:He said, I don't know what the fuck to do.

00:18:56Guest:I don't know what to do about it.

00:18:58Guest:I said, you got his phone number?

00:19:00Yeah.

00:19:02Guest:I got his number.

00:19:03Guest:You know, I got his number.

00:19:04Guest:Yeah.

00:19:04Guest:My agent has a fucking number.

00:19:06Guest:I don't know.

00:19:07Guest:Yeah, I got it.

00:19:08Guest:Yeah.

00:19:08Guest:I said, why don't you call him and ask him?

00:19:14Guest:Call him?

00:19:15Guest:Yeah.

00:19:18Guest:So he called him apparently that day and he called me back.

00:19:20Guest:And Dave never calls you either.

00:19:21Guest:Yeah.

00:19:22Guest:He called me.

00:19:23Guest:Yeah.

00:19:23Guest:Hey, thanks a lot.

00:19:24Guest:I mean, his father died.

00:19:27Guest:Right.

00:19:28Guest:I said, good.

00:19:29Guest:So, you know, we had a laugh about the poor guy.

00:19:34Marc:Yeah, but it's about what your brain does versus what's really happening.

00:19:38Marc:It's an important lesson.

00:19:40Marc:He's used to getting fucked in his mind by producers.

00:19:44Guest:I know.

00:19:44Marc:He wrote a whole book about it.

00:19:45Guest:By actors?

00:19:46Guest:Yeah.

00:19:49Guest:Look, a lot of it is I say, well, you're working with certain actors that are going to fuck you.

00:19:53Guest:Yeah.

00:19:54Guest:You know what he said to me one time?

00:19:55Guest:Now, this is why you got to love him.

00:19:59Guest:He sent me something.

00:20:00Guest:He's a guy who sends you things.

00:20:03Guest:Like he handwrites things.

00:20:05Marc:Yeah.

00:20:05Guest:It's very hard to read his writing.

00:20:07Guest:Yeah.

00:20:07Guest:Which is cryptic.

00:20:08Guest:Yeah.

00:20:08Guest:But it's quite beautiful.

00:20:10Guest:And he sends you things like antique things and little tchotchkes that are, you know, interesting stuff.

00:20:17Guest:Yeah.

00:20:17Guest:All the time.

00:20:18Guest:Yeah.

00:20:18Yeah.

00:20:19Guest:So I got something, and I don't remember what it was.

00:20:22Guest:And then there's the note.

00:20:24Guest:Dear Ed.

00:20:24Guest:Yeah.

00:20:25Guest:Something, something.

00:20:26Guest:I've got it.

00:20:27Guest:I saved it.

00:20:28Guest:And he says at the end, he wrote my something.

00:20:33Guest:Yeah.

00:20:34Guest:And, you know, I couldn't.

00:20:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:37Guest:I didn't know what it said.

00:20:39Guest:So I called one of my Jewish agents, Iris Grossman, who I've known forever.

00:20:44Guest:Yeah.

00:20:45Guest:And I told her.

00:20:46Guest:I said, I don't know what this is.

00:20:48Guest:Help me with this.

00:20:49Guest:And she said, all right, we'll find a letter that's similar in another part of the writing.

00:20:52Guest:And that was, I said, well, that's an L. Okay.

00:20:56Guest:And that's, what's that?

00:20:57Guest:Well, that's an A. Yeah.

00:20:59Guest:And then she said, she went down and she stopped.

00:21:02Guest:I'm doing this for dramatic effect.

00:21:03Guest:And she stopped and she said, oh my God.

00:21:08Guest:Lonsman.

00:21:10Guest:Now, you know what that means?

00:21:11Guest:Yeah, yes.

00:21:12Guest:I mean, that's quite an honor for a non-Jew.

00:21:15Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:17Guest:He says, you're his Lonsman.

00:21:19Guest:Oh, my God.

00:21:20Guest:And she told me the history.

00:21:21Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:22Guest:In Europe, alone at night, and they would walk by someone they didn't know, and they would whisper, Lonsman.

00:21:28Guest:If they got a response, they knew it was a fellow Jew.

00:21:30Guest:Right.

00:21:31Guest:And they connected.

00:21:32Marc:Oh, that's nice.

00:21:33Guest:It was beautiful.

00:21:34Guest:Yeah.

00:21:35Guest:And so, you know, you get a couple of those.

00:21:37Guest:Sure.

00:21:37Guest:Really...

00:21:38Guest:You don't want to let that go.

00:21:39Guest:Yeah.

00:21:40Marc:Well, you know, it's a weird thing that's happened now because of how divided politics are.

00:21:44Marc:You know, you really have to sort that stuff out.

00:21:46Marc:You do.

00:21:47Marc:You do.

00:21:47Guest:And I got him into jujitsu.

00:21:49Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:21:49Guest:Yeah.

00:21:49Guest:And David went quite a ways with that.

00:21:51Guest:All right.

00:21:52Guest:But again, just like David.

00:21:55Guest:too hard you know in jujitsu you have to be relaxed you have to breathe it's kind of a you know yeah otherwise you get exhausted quick yeah he would just go all out yeah well yeah that's I think that's his personality he's pugnacious in a way that he's not yeah yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean yeah like a bull like a bull yeah yeah exactly

00:22:17Marc:But that's the thing.

00:22:18Marc:It's like, look, I can't compare myself, but this role that I just took, right away I'm like, I'm not doing that.

00:22:27Marc:Right, right.

00:22:27Marc:And I stuck by it.

00:22:29Marc:I was like, I don't want to do it.

00:22:30Marc:I don't like going away that long.

00:22:31Marc:That should be the title of a book about it.

00:22:33Marc:Yeah, I'm not doing this.

00:22:33Marc:I'm not doing that.

00:22:34Marc:And, you know, like I was asking for things that would hopefully scare them away.

00:22:40Marc:Like, I got to do my podcast.

00:22:41Marc:And I'm like, yeah, I got to come home every two weeks for four days.

00:22:44Marc:That ought to do it.

00:22:45Marc:There's another actor they can get.

00:22:47Marc:And they're like, we'll do it.

00:22:48Marc:And then the woman, I just met the casting agent up in Vancouver from Apple.

00:22:53Marc:And she's like, that was one of the most exciting negotiations I've ever done.

00:22:56Marc:And I'm like, are you being diplomatic?

00:22:59Yeah.

00:22:59Guest:And also there's a tipping point.

00:23:01Guest:Like you keep all these, you throw these things that are going to,

00:23:06Guest:prevent them from hiring you, and then they keep wanting you.

00:23:10Guest:All of a sudden, you're so flattered, sometimes you'll say, I got to do it now.

00:23:15Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:15Marc:Look how much they want me.

00:23:16Guest:Yes, there's that.

00:23:18Marc:They're just sort of like excited to have to work like that.

00:23:21Guest:Exactly.

00:23:21Marc:To do what they trained for.

00:23:23Marc:Exactly.

00:23:24Marc:I think that's true.

00:23:26Marc:Someone else told me, it was my buddy Al Magico, he said, do you want to hear an actor complain?

00:23:31Marc:Give him a job.

00:23:32Guest:That's right.

00:23:33Yeah.

00:23:33Guest:That's exactly right.

00:23:35Guest:It's bad when you're working and it's bad when you're not.

00:23:39Marc:I think it's great.

00:23:40Guest:And you're happy with it?

00:23:42Guest:Yeah, I am.

00:23:43Guest:You know, I've only watched it once.

00:23:45Guest:Yeah.

00:23:46Guest:They gave me all six.

00:23:48Guest:Yeah.

00:23:48Guest:I watched it once.

00:23:49Guest:And I thought, yeah, it's a good show.

00:23:51Guest:Yeah.

00:23:51Guest:And it's what you kind of want to do.

00:23:53Marc:And a great cast.

00:23:54Marc:But you like that limited series thing, too.

00:23:56Marc:I love it.

00:23:56Marc:Yeah.

00:23:57Marc:Now you don't have to do another one.

00:23:58Marc:No.

00:23:59Marc:Of just him sitting in a hospice care.

00:24:02Guest:Naked, you know.

00:24:04Marc:Because he's pretty out of it now, isn't he?

00:24:06Guest:I think he's 90 out in Malibu.

00:24:09Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:24:09Guest:He's in a wheelchair right now because he broke his ankle, I heard.

00:24:13Guest:Did you talk to him at all?

00:24:14Guest:No, I never spoke to him.

00:24:15Guest:I never met the man.

00:24:16Marc:Yeah.

00:24:16Guest:A lot of it is just, you know, fly on the wall.

00:24:19Marc:Sure, sure, sure.

00:24:19Guest:But the idea that these things happen and, you know, and again, the racism, but it was evident across the board.

00:24:28Guest:Like, for example, when they wanted that shooter, you know, J.J.

00:24:31Guest:Redick.

00:24:32Guest:Yeah.

00:24:33Guest:Doc Rivers.

00:24:33Guest:The white guy.

00:24:34Guest:Yeah.

00:24:34Guest:We need an outside shooter.

00:24:36Guest:to get us to the playoffs.

00:24:37Guest:Without that, we're not going to the playoffs.

00:24:40Guest:Well, why would I have to, you know, he's white.

00:24:43Guest:J.J.

00:24:44Guest:Redick, he's white.

00:24:45Guest:That's too much to pay for a white player.

00:24:50Guest:What the fuck does white have?

00:24:52Guest:He's white.

00:24:54Guest:And that's that.

00:24:55Guest:He tipped like 5%, 3% in Beverly Hills restaurants.

00:25:01Guest:Yeah.

00:25:02Guest:Well, I mean, what do they do?

00:25:03Guest:Seriously.

00:25:05Guest:Yeah.

00:25:05Guest:They bring you water and bread.

00:25:07Guest:For that, they get 20%.

00:25:08Guest:Yeah, he's a classic asshole.

00:25:10Guest:Exactly.

00:25:12Guest:He's like old school asshole.

00:25:13Guest:Elgin Baylor, he treated like, you know.

00:25:14Guest:Yeah.

00:25:15Guest:He used them.

00:25:17Marc:Like a couple other things that I've poked around in some of your stuff.

00:25:21Marc:Like when you – you turned down an honorary degree.

00:25:26Guest:Yeah.

00:25:26Guest:Well, I gave it back.

00:25:27Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:25:28Guest:I accepted it when they offered it.

00:25:30Guest:And you gave it back.

00:25:31Guest:I spoke at the graduation.

00:25:32Guest:Yeah.

00:25:33Guest:I never graduated.

00:25:34Guest:Yeah.

00:25:34Guest:I told them that.

00:25:35Marc:Yeah.

00:25:36Marc:Well, that doesn't stop them.

00:25:37Marc:That doesn't stop them.

00:25:38Marc:It's all a sales thing.

00:25:39Guest:So I did the speech and –

00:25:43Guest:And then they hired this fucking guy, you know, the Trump guy.

00:25:48Marc:To be the president of the college.

00:25:49Guest:To be the president of the university.

00:25:50Guest:And I had trouble with the one before that.

00:25:51Guest:It was Jim Trestle, who was the coach.

00:25:54Guest:Got disgraced at Ohio State for NCAA evaluations.

00:25:58Guest:And they didn't give a fuck.

00:26:01Guest:So he raised a lot of money is what he did.

00:26:03Guest:I don't know what else he did.

00:26:05Guest:I don't know.

00:26:07Guest:But I knew this guy, this Johnson, was the wrong guy.

00:26:12Guest:And they tried to hide it.

00:26:13Guest:They did a lot of stuff.

00:26:15Guest:So I came out against that.

00:26:17Guest:Didn't make a lot of friends.

00:26:18Guest:And a lot of people back there didn't see, well, what's wrong?

00:26:22Guest:And so I said, well, I'm giving it back.

00:26:24Guest:So then when I decided, I got the student group of protesters.

00:26:29Guest:And I said, what we need is like a marshmallow roast and burn it.

00:26:34Guest:Outside at night, you know, on campus.

00:26:36Guest:Your thing.

00:26:37Guest:And that's what they basically, they burned it and sent me the, in a paper bag.

00:26:42Guest:The chart.

00:26:42Guest:And I put it up on the wall where it used to be.

00:26:44Guest:Oh, that's great.

00:26:45Guest:Yeah.

00:26:45Guest:Did it have any impact?

00:26:47Guest:Oh, you know, I mean, the impact I think is that they lost, and it wasn't me, they lost a lot of donors, a lot of big, big donors.

00:26:56Guest:Democratic donors?

00:26:57Guest:For the most part, I think, yeah, sure.

00:26:59Guest:And some Republican, some Republican.

00:27:01Guest:Yeah.

00:27:03Guest:A big guy who I know, five million they were expecting, and he said, no, no, not until this guy's gone.

00:27:11Marc:And is he still there?

00:27:12Marc:Yeah.

00:27:13Marc:Yeah.

00:27:13Marc:And the other thing I want to know about, what is your relationship with John Milius?

00:27:19Guest:I just talked to John about three weeks ago.

00:27:23Guest:Good.

00:27:23Guest:I mean, you know, he had the stroke.

00:27:25Guest:Yeah.

00:27:26Guest:I visit him several times, but I haven't been there for a while.

00:27:30Guest:I got to go see him.

00:27:32Guest:He's got a gal from England who takes care of him.

00:27:35Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:27:36Marc:But that goes back, your friendship with him?

00:27:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:27:38Guest:Yeah, I went jujitsu.

00:27:40Guest:He turned you on to that?

00:27:42Guest:He turned me on to it.

00:27:43Guest:He got me involved.

00:27:44Guest:Yeah.

00:27:45Guest:Very talented guy.

00:27:46Guest:I got along great with John.

00:27:47Guest:You know, I mean, he's a lovable guy.

00:27:52Guest:He's extremely bright.

00:27:55Guest:Yeah.

00:27:58Guest:Yeah.

00:27:58Guest:How did you meet him?

00:27:59Guest:I met him... We were on the same lot...

00:28:03Guest:And then he used to get the fights on his TV in his office.

00:28:06Guest:Yeah.

00:28:07Guest:And we were all invited over there.

00:28:10Guest:And then he told me about the Gracies.

00:28:12Guest:He was very friendly with Horian and Hickson and all those guys, Hoist.

00:28:17Guest:Yeah.

00:28:18Guest:And it took him like two years to convince me to go out there because I said, they wear the pajamas, right, John?

00:28:24Guest:And it's out in the fucking Torrance.

00:28:26Guest:I need to get a motel room, you know, before I come home.

00:28:29Guest:Yeah.

00:28:30Guest:So I finally went out and met him out there and Horian gave me a little

00:28:33Guest:A little lesson.

00:28:36Guest:Yeah.

00:28:36Guest:And I was like, what?

00:28:38Guest:How did you do that?

00:28:40Guest:I was so fascinated.

00:28:41Guest:I signed up.

00:28:42Guest:Yeah.

00:28:43Guest:16 years.

00:28:45Guest:Yeah.

00:28:47Guest:Part of it was I liked the family.

00:28:49Guest:And then, of course, over time, you know, they fight all the time.

00:28:52Guest:The Brazilians are tempestuous.

00:28:56Guest:And so they were like samurais.

00:28:59Guest:They were like a samurai thing.

00:29:00Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:29:01Guest:They had a diet and...

00:29:03Marc:But you were there, you were in the... I was in the inner, the absolute inner sanctum of the Graces.

00:29:11Guest:I was in rooms where they were fighting each other.

00:29:14Guest:Right, oh wow.

00:29:15Guest:Where you could never tell.

00:29:16Guest:If it was real or not.

00:29:17Guest:Oh no, real.

00:29:18Marc:And you couldn't divulge who won.

00:29:21Marc:Right, right, right.

00:29:22Marc:You gotta keep the brand in mind.

00:29:24Marc:You had to.

00:29:27You had to.

00:29:31.

00:29:32Guest:.