BONUS The Friday Show - All's Faire in Love and War
Marc:I'm excited I get to talk to Don.
Marc:Do you have any questions that you want me to ask Don?
Marc:I do not.
Guest:Fair enough.
Guest:I don't have any questions you need to ask my wife for me.
Marc:Hey, Chris.
Marc:Hey, buddy.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:It's going well, although I'll be honest with you, I had a bit of nervous scratching listening to this week's Stravos episode.
Guest:Well, first of all, I was so thrilled that that name was going to trip you up.
Guest:I was like, oh, there's no chance Chris says this right.
Marc:Stravos!
Guest:Come on.
Guest:No, it's not Stravos.
Guest:No?
Guest:No, it's Stavros.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:Now go for the last name.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:Can we get that one?
Marc:Hala.
Marc:No, I cannot.
Guest:Hala if you hear me.
Guest:How do you say that?
Guest:Not going to work here anymore.
Guest:No, Stavros Halkius.
Guest:Very, very, very Greek.
Marc:That is a very Greek name.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:So what was crawling up your skin with Stavros?
Marc:bed bugs baby oh the bed bugs it freaks me out as a new yorker uh former new yorker i guess at this point this was actually the first vacation i ever took where people asked me where i'm from and i said new jersey and i died a little inside every time i said it so but but when you said that though then they just left you alone yes
Guest:Oh, because when I went on vacation recently, and I would say I was from New York City or Brooklyn, every single person I said that to was like, are you okay?
Guest:Is there crime everywhere?
Guest:I'm like, no, turn your fucking TV off.
Guest:It's not like that.
Guest:I show them pictures.
Guest:I'm like, look at my street.
Guest:My street's nicer than your street.
Guest:And I don't even know where you live.
Marc:But I guarantee this is a nicer street than your street.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:Yeah, there are no follow-up questions when you say New Jersey.
Marc:So, yeah.
Guest:But no, there used to be.
Guest:There used to be tons.
Guest:Dawn, my wife, is from Jersey and she hated it because she'd say Jersey and everyone would make fun of her.
Guest:You'd be like, oh yeah, what exit?
Guest:How does it smell?
Guest:And all this stuff.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:Everybody has their stereotypes of Jersey or, oh, how'd you learn to drive?
Guest:You know, whatever.
Marc:See, by the way, so my New Jersey family still asks me, what exit are you?
Marc:And I still don't know.
Marc:I don't know what exit I am.
Marc:That's a thing that you're supposed to get with like your keys to your house.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:This is the exit that you are.
Marc:But yeah, don't know that.
Marc:But yeah, so that's me in Jersey.
Marc:But bedbugs in New York City is a real thing.
Marc:Yeah, you never had them.
Marc:No, I never did.
Guest:No, me neither.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:What?
Guest:No, I think it's rare to have them.
Guest:I think it's like shark attacks.
Guest:You hear about them a lot.
Marc:But not everybody around here has bedbugs.
Marc:Can I tell you, when I lived on 22nd Street, when I was watching our friend Mike's house, my friend Ivy, she got bedbugs.
Marc:And she was like, oh, my God, I need somewhere to stay.
Marc:And the basement was available.
Marc:And I was like, you know what?
Marc:I can't let you stay here because like it just I don't I don't want bedbugs anywhere in this building, but also just not be a cool thing to just let you crash and then get bedbugs for whoever the next tenant is.
Marc:So, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I still feel bad, but I still feel like I did the right thing by not letting her stay.
Marc:But but I still feel like a bad friend.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, well, I guess I knew a guy who I was convinced he was going to kill his grandma because he was going to stay at her apartment while he had bedbugs.
Guest:And I was like, you could give bedbugs to your grandma.
Guest:And then I found out who his grandma was.
Guest:He was like, we were we were driving back from Connecticut.
Guest:He was a friend of a friend.
Guest:And somehow we wound up in the cab going because we were the only New Yorker.
Guest:So we were like going back to the city together.
Guest:And he was like, oh, I can't go to my place.
Guest:It's being treated for bedbugs.
Guest:I'm staying at my grandma's.
Guest:And I was like, oh, your grandma lives in New York?
Guest:And he's like, yeah, she's got a place in Midtown, but she's never there because she's either always over in Ireland or she's doing a play somewhere.
Guest:And I was like, grandma's doing a play somewhere?
Guest:He's like, yeah, well, she's an actor.
Guest:I was like, oh, really?
Guest:What's her name?
Guest:He goes, Angela Lansbury.
Guest:So I was like, no, wait, you're going to kill Angela Lansbury with your infestation.
Guest:Please don't do that.
Marc:Wow, that is amazing.
Marc:So you hung out with Angela Lansbury's grandson.
Guest:Many times before I knew that.
Guest:Yeah, Pete Shaw.
Guest:Yeah, he was a good guy.
Guest:And I did not know that it was his grandmother.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So bed bugs for me is like a real, real sensitive thing because I'm terrified of them.
Marc:It's like, it's kind of like herpes.
Marc:Like you're just terrified of the idea of it.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And you just never, ever want it.
Marc:Because I honestly don't, I still have never seen a bed bug.
Marc:From what I hear, I cannot find them.
Marc:So I'm just like, okay, so now I'm just scratchy.
Marc:So I'm just itchy every time I hear about bed bugs.
Guest:so my apologies yeah mark when mark had him we were doing break room live and he had them in his apartment and then had to do you know what they're saying he had to leave and get it cleaned and everything and i remember he was so wiggy like in that in the office like he you know very flinchy and like you know itching all the time it's it's rough uh how crazy is it that they shared an apartment
Guest:It's crazy that they didn't really know that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially, like, I would think it would be a thing that Stavros would have, like, talked about nonstop with his buddies.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Like, I stayed in Mark's, you know, Mark Maron's apartment, got bedbugs there.
Guest:Well, yes, especially, there's a little backstory to this guy and Mark that does not come up in the episode.
Guest:Well, what is it?
Guest:Oh, it's so funny because it's like it's such a classic thing that Mark, if it were a different time and a different moment, he'd be so mad about it.
Guest:But then when I brought it up to him, he like was like, I don't care.
Guest:And it was that.
Guest:So like I have known of obviously, you know, people who are in the podcast space.
Guest:I know almost everyone like I know who they are.
Guest:I know who the players are.
Guest:And I remember when they started that show, which, yes, is called Come Town.
Guest:And I remembered, oh, these guys are like fucking grade A mark trolls.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like they were up his ass all the time on Twitter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, like I mentioned many times, he used to just spend a day arguing with people.
Guest:So if you were of a certain disposition, you were like, oh, look at this.
Guest:It's so easy to push Marc Maron's buttons.
Guest:Let me go push him.
Guest:And it was particularly that guy Nick Mullen.
Guest:He would do it as sport until Marc finally blocked him, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, like, I always knew of them.
Guest:Same with the Chapo Trap House guys.
Guest:Like, that's this huge, like, lefty podcast.
Guest:The way I first became aware of them were like, oh, these guys fucking trash Mark all the time.
Guest:Like, they're always, like, asking him about stamps.com, like, to be a pain in the ass and stuff.
Guest:And...
Guest:And, you know, I realized what it was, too.
Guest:It was like one of those things where these were all people who at the early day, like the whole reason they're probably doing podcasts was because, as Stavra said, it's like they were listening from the start.
Guest:And when the show started...
Guest:It was the kind of thing that, you know, you know, up and coming or want to be comedian would have probably taken some joy in the show that this was the show of this like bitter, resentful guy who is bringing other comics who are more successful than Iman and telling him he had problems with them and then being like, I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what you're talking about.
Guest:And then like, you know, having to work through that.
Guest:That was a huge part of the appeal in the early days of the show.
Guest:Like, no doubt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then this guy, if you're listening to that, and then he goes on and the show is successful.
Guest:And within a few years, he's interviewing the president of the United States.
Guest:Like, that is an easy target.
Guest:Like, I have no illusions about that.
Guest:And I've never, like, it's not something I would have ever been like, oh, man, this is a problem.
Guest:No, like, that's the way it goes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said this to Mark when we were talking about this separately.
Guest:I'm like, oh, dude, I guarantee there are people that this happened with you where you were like, that dude's cool.
Guest:And then five years later, fuck that guy.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:A million percent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So like, I always knew of that.
Guest:And so it's literally like a reason why I never like pitched these guys.
Guest:I never like was like, Oh, you should talk to the Adam Friedland or whatever.
Guest:I just knew like, that's a world that doesn't mix with Mark to the point where he doesn't even know that they exist as a subculture.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He doesn't know that that's a thing like that.
Guest:He mentioned it in the, in the episode, the dirt bag left.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I was wondering, you know what that was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah,
Guest:Which is crazy because it's like been a kind of a cultural thing, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so he's, you know, telling me, oh, we should get this guy Stavros on.
Guest:He's pretty funny.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know, these guys like used to just demolish you.
Guest:And he was like, what are you talking about?
Guest:And I like explained to him, like, no, these are like, you know, those guys who used to like troll you on Twitter, like tell you to like, you know, there's a whole episode of the show Marin that is about him losing his internet connection.
Guest:And he like kept trying to call the like, you know, customer service and they were not helpful to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just snowballs and ruins his whole day and life.
Guest:And, you know, it's a good premise of the episode.
Guest:But it was real.
Guest:And it was because he was then, like, reaching out on Twitter, like, hey, Verizon, what the fuck is going on with my internet?
Guest:And all of these guys, like, swarmed, like, immediately.
Guest:Like...
Guest:hey hey did you plug it out unplug it and plug it back in have you tried that yet oh hey mark i got a tip for you you know and they do oh you know what it is it's the bofa you should turn on the bofa switch and he'd be like what's the bofa bofa these nuts you know like just totally all the standards he was getting the greatest hits yeah and these guys were in it like it was all of them
Guest:Every, anyone I know from that sphere, right?
Guest:Oh, no kidding.
Guest:They were total pile on.
Guest:And so I was explaining to him, I'm like, yeah, these are like the kind of guys who would just like get your ass.
Guest:And he was like, man, I don't care.
Guest:To the point where he didn't even fucking bring it up.
Guest:Like he never mentioned to Stavros like, oh yeah, I know you, you guys used to bust on me or whatever.
Guest:He's like, he's just, it's like, couldn't even be in on his radar.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, it's like the Don Draper meme in the elevator.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That's exactly it.
Guest:Although it's a little different from that meme because it's not like he doesn't think about them at all from the standpoint of at some point they might not have liked him.
Guest:He's like, oh, you're coming on my show and you're friendly to me?
Guest:Like, great.
Guest:We're going to talk like two comic dudes.
Guest:And that other persona, he just doesn't care.
Guest:It's like, I might as well be dead.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:I think that is kind of true.
Guest:Like, I think that happens.
Guest:I get, I guarantee nothing about that guy coming on the show was fake.
Guest:Like he wasn't pretending to have a good time.
Guest:He's like older now and he tours himself and he's not even on that show anymore.
Guest:He's like out doing his own thing.
Guest:And you, you know, it's, it's like people grow up.
Guest:That's what happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was cool hearing like the like two generations before Mark, you know, like it was it was cool seeing the intergenerational, you know, talk because they can relate to things.
Marc:But, you know, some things are different.
Marc:There's just something so enjoyable and refreshing about that.
Marc:Like I love all these old, you know, people coming back.
Marc:you know, onto the show, but it is enjoyable to having these new folks that, you know, maybe Mark missed coming onto the show and having a sort of a different, you know, change of pace.
Guest:Yeah, well, that's coming up.
Guest:Several episodes in the next two months are exactly that.
Guest:Comedians that are, you know, I would say half Mark's age, but who are, you know,
Guest:same type of comedic sensibility that he is just a different generation.
Guest:And, uh, I think, yeah, like you said, it's good to have people come back.
Guest:We've got people coming back who've been on, uh, before as well.
Guest:So it's, it's, uh, it's a good mix.
Guest:It's a good mix of like, you know, hearing from the people who kind of started this show with us, like in that same timeframe and finding out like where they are with their lives 15 years later, but then also hearing from people that were literally like teenagers when we start
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, I talked to my girlfriend and I'm in a good place.
Marc:And like, so he was very much sort of, you know, saying that, look, I'm okay being where I'm at.
Marc:Like, I'm in a very good place.
Marc:I'm a fortunate place.
Marc:So I appreciate that, especially because-
Marc:Honestly, all people have to do is go for a walk and it does, it worked for me every single time.
Marc:Like I, I go for like a five mile walk, not in this God for awful, you know, heat, but, uh, but yeah, I, I usually do a five mile walk and it usually goes like first mile is great.
Marc:Second mile.
Marc:I'm like, wow, I wish I could just turn around right now.
Marc:Then the third mile is like, I, I regret this immediately.
Marc:And then the fourth mile was like, I have all the answers through the entire planet right here at my disposal and
Marc:And then the fifth mile is like, I can't wait for this to be over.
Marc:So that's usually how it goes.
Marc:And I'm glad Mark is basically the same way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's like sometimes he just needs the chance to vent.
Guest:He just needs to like, you know, get and hey, newsflash, you people listening are the people he's going to vent to.
Guest:Like, that's how it comes out.
Guest:So, you know, I didn't ask him and I wasn't going to ask him if he wanted to volunteer to me.
Guest:Fine.
Guest:But I didn't ask what Kit talked to him about.
Guest:But I bet Kit is a fan of the show.
Guest:And so she listens.
Guest:And I bet you she had a conversation with him about how he was coming off.
Guest:I do not know that.
Guest:I'm not talking about it from a perspective of him saying something.
Guest:Educated guest.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, if he had asked me, I would have said similar things.
Guest:Like, I've said before.
Guest:I've talked to him about, like, what this acting deal is or whatever, like him complaining about it.
Guest:But, like, I don't know.
Guest:I think that, you know, he just probably being home, having some perspective, having a situation where he just had to kind of, like, roll with the punches with that production due to their, like, weather situation.
Guest:I think it kind of...
Guest:It was a little bit of a breakthrough for him.
Guest:Like he finally kind of, you know, undid that log jam that was going on in his brain about this job and about what he should be grateful for and how he can just deliver what he's asked to do.
Guest:And it sounds like it's working.
Guest:I get, you know, talking to him throughout the rest of the week.
Marc:He seems like he's having a good time.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And, you know, this is like a therapy session for him.
Marc:And it has been like that for, you know, almost two decades, you know, so like, and like, everyone should be basically used to it by now, you know, like, this is this is how this is his process.
Marc:So I mean, I
Guest:understand how it can turn into something unappealing if it keeps going but thankfully for sure it has uh you know fits and starts yeah exactly exactly why why was it obvious that he was listening to bikini kill is he gonna have the like someone from bikini kill on kathleen hannah yeah hey there it is cool the
Guest:singer and she's married to uh adam horowitz from the beastie boys oh no kidding yes was uh she wrote a book earlier this year and i think he just got a hold of it and was like you know yeah i'll have have have her on um but it can't happen until i think like september or something so
Guest:So I'm saying she's going to be on, but that's just a booking that we have in the works and it has not yet done.
Guest:So all of those things are always like subject to change.
Guest:You know, somebody has to pull out and we can't get it rescheduled.
Guest:And then that's that.
Guest:Then we don't wind up having it, which is why he doesn't go and say it on the show.
Guest:Like, oh, I'm having Kathleen Hannah on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But if he says, like, I'm reading this, I'm listening to Bikini Kill, you know, he knows that fans of Bikini Kill, fans of hers in general, will probably pick up what he's putting down.
Guest:Gotcha.
Marc:And night of the many Jews, a night of many Jews.
Marc:Can I ask first question?
Marc:Did you ever work with Jeff Garland on his podcast?
Marc:Was that just a big... I never worked with him on the podcast.
Guest:But you just talked to him.
Guest:We were standing backstage at this comedy club, and he was like, I should do one of these.
Guest:And I was like, it's real easy.
Guest:Just go to this website, and you sign up for it, and you can put it up on iTunes, and if you want some names of people, whatever.
Guest:But the hilarious thing about this is...
Guest:You know, he's a professional.
Guest:He knows how to do business, I guess.
Guest:He became, I remember this, at least this was what I was told.
Guest:If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Guest:But this was what I was told.
Guest:He became the first person that the Earwolf Podcast Network gave a flat, guaranteed amount of money to do a podcast for them.
Guest:Everyone else at that time was getting in on revenue share deals, right?
Guest:Like, well, we do a podcast and if we sell ads, you'll make this percent, we'll make this percent.
Guest:Jeff, I believe, was the first to ever just be like, I'll do it if you pay me this much money, right?
Guest:And they were like, sure.
Guest:And they did.
Guest:And it was not a success.
Guest:Oh no.
Guest:So yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's like, that's the kind of thing.
Guest:Like I, I knew it at the time, like when I was talking to him, I was like, he's never going to fucking do this.
Guest:No.
Guest:And that, and it's, it wasn't, he didn't, but he went and talked to somebody and they gave him a deal to do it, you know?
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:I loved, I mean, there's so much to love about this episode, from the blueberries bit to, I'm kind of interested, I think I'm going to download Jeff's audiobook just so I can hear the Leonard Nimoy stuff.
Marc:That was a fascinating tidbit.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:It does not sound like it went over very well.
Guest:No.
Marc:It seemed to sound like it was a bomb.
Yeah.
Marc:um also i'm pretty sure uh mark correctly said star trek but you know i could be wrong did no i think he did say it right yeah okay somehow the star trek star track thing the the streams get crossed at some point look at the size of this jew was a great great moment oh my god just joe mandy called him the jewish gaston
Guest:That, like, it's so funny.
Guest:This thing was 14 years ago.
Guest:I remembered that like it was yesterday.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Like I had the visual image.
Guest:I'm standing in the back of the club watching this thing happen.
Guest:And he came out and everybody's laughing.
Guest:Look at this huge Jew.
Guest:I remember like so clear.
Guest:It's like one of those jokes that just so in my head, the Jewish Gaston to the point where every time I've ever seen Gary Goldman, that's all I'm thinking of.
Guest:Oh, look, it's the Jewish Gaston.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Everyone seemed like they were having a ball.
Marc:It was great to hear both Susie and Jeff, you know, back in the day being on your show.
Marc:And of course, you know, with the later episodes 14 years later.
Marc:So that was really fun.
Marc:Did you have to cut anything out from any of these or just like procedural stuff?
Guest:No, like I said, when we put them up, I put them up the way they were.
Guest:And if I, you know, I was kind of, I just feel like at this point, it's just like, put a little disclaimer.
Guest:This was recorded 14 years ago.
Guest:Like, you know, people have differences of opinions and growth and change, and you don't have to hold everyone to exactly what they said 14 years ago.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Unless they say something inaccurate and it's still in there.
Guest:Like, I don't need to, like, make any corrections or apologize or anything.
Guest:It's like, it is what it is.
Guest:People want to hear these old episodes.
Guest:You can hear them.
Guest:But, like, we are fully aware that they would not necessarily happen exactly this way today.
Marc:Which episode was the most popular episode?
Marc:Which one did people buy the most?
Guest:That sold the most?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was probably the first one, just because the first one is the first one.
Guest:But the one that's going to come up next, the fourth one, which was called The Blue Show.
Guest:just because it was like five real filthy comics, that one sold really well.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I mean, they all had roughly similar, but I think there was a bit of a spike for that one just because it had people with very devoted fans.
Guest:David Tell, Anthony Jeselnik...
Guest:And Amy Schumer, it was it was just like, oh, Bobby Kelly, just a really like very heavy duty, hardcore comics type of show.
Guest:And people who are into that, especially back at that point in time, you know, before these people were playing stadiums and they just had these small devoted fan bases like they were into it.
Marc:So on Thursday's episode, you have Clarence on, Clarence Macklin, I'm going to say.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Hey, you got that one.
Marc:Hey, broken clocks right twice a day.
Marc:I loved the monologue because love that Mark still likes Devil Wears Prada.
Marc:Can we get him in the sequel, you think?
Marc:You think he wants to be in the sequel?
Guest:Oh, right.
Marc:They're making one.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So he's going to be in that.
Marc:I'm not his casting agent, but yeah, sure.
Marc:Get him in it.
Marc:Uh, also he's talking to Owen Wilson a whole bunch.
Marc:Uh, can you, can you pass along?
Marc:Can you ask Mark to ask Owen why he made the big bounce as well?
Marc:Oh, you just want to get everybody covered.
Marc:Who else was in that Morgan Freeman?
Marc:We'll get Morgan Freeman a note too.
Guest:also what i really want to ask owen wilson is why doesn't he write with um i asked mark to ask him this i was like if you can yeah because especially since he said that he he watched royal tenenbaums yes i was like can you find out why he doesn't write with with wes anderson anymore because it's literally like i look i like a lot of wes anderson movies but i don't like any of them as much as i like the ones that he wrote with owen wilson
Marc:100%, right?
Marc:And it's a drastic difference in quality for me.
Marc:And I just need to know why they don't work together anymore.
Marc:So I would love to know that answer.
Marc:Also, when Mark was talking about like, oh, I have a new Michael Clayton movie, I honestly thought he was going to talk about that upcoming Apple show, Wolves, with basically Brad Pitt and George Clooney.
Marc:They're playing two Michael Claytons.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:yeah it's just michael clayton's uh but no you know the michaels clayton if you haven't seen the trailer for that it looks great and it looks very very much like michael clayton uh comedy uh basically uh but he he's in the uh he he watches saccaro which i love saccaro i'm actually in the middle of watching you love it so much you have no idea what it's actually called
Guest:oh my god what is it called sicario oh sicario sorry we just we're just gonna have to give people like if you subscribe to the full marin just get a little bingo card every every episode and you put down which words that are going to be in this episode you think chris will not pronounce and you could get a bingo very easily
Marc:Can I tell you, I literally talk on Zoom every day for my job.
Marc:Like I am just talking.
Marc:So you can just imagine the amount of things that I get wrong.
Guest:But no, you know what it is?
Guest:I've known people like this my whole life.
Guest:They have like name blindness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like you see a name and you're like, I remember a person who like the person I knew from high school, there were, they were reading something out in class and it said, uh, whatever the name was, was, uh, Sycamore, somebody, whatever Sycamore.
Guest:And he's reading it.
Guest:And he was like, so-and-so Schoonmaker.
Guest:And we were like, that's not even close.
Guest:And he was like, what do you mean?
Guest:And we're like, it says Sycamore.
Guest:And he's like, oh, gotcha.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, Jennifer Schoonmaker.
Guest:No, it says Sycamore.
Guest:Right there.
Guest:We just told you what it says.
Guest:And he was like that all the time.
Guest:He just couldn't get names.
Guest:Like he read it and his brain transliterated it into a different name.
Marc:So I think you're in that same boat, pal.
Marc:Oh, man, I'm sorry for all of you listening.
Marc:But I very much enjoyed the Clarence Macklin episode.
Marc:He is such an interesting guy.
Marc:And it's fascinating because you have a personal relation to this.
Marc:Like your wife worked with this person for, you know, the, you know, was she involved in the documentary series?
Guest:No, she was out on maternity leave when they were filming that documentary.
Guest:But she knew him before that.
Guest:She knew him from the shows and the volunteering she did inside prior to him getting out.
Guest:And then once she was done with maternity leave, he was out.
Guest:And so as he mentioned in the episode, they worked together at Rikers Island doing a program there.
Guest:You know, it's interesting, though, because it wasn't a situation where, you know, I was like, oh, hey, I have this connection.
Guest:We can get this guy on the show.
Guest:It was literally that we got pitched Coleman Domingo for the movie Sing Sing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I told our bookers, I was like, oh, you know what would actually probably be better?
Guest:Like we could get Coleman Domingo to come on to talk about whatever he's acting in whenever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But this movie, I specifically know a dude who's in it and he's playing himself.
Guest:And that's a much better story.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I was like, why don't you ask them if they're sending Clarence Macklin out for any promo?
Guest:And I mean, I guess he probably is.
Guest:But as it sounded like in that talk with Mark, it sounded like that was like his first walk.
Guest:He was like, well, I'm here talking to you.
Guest:Like, you know, because Mark was like, well, are you doing a lot of big shot stuff now?
Guest:Like you.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And so I bet you that they were like, oh.
Guest:somebody wants to talk to Clarence and not the like Oscar nominee.
Guest:Like that's awesome.
Guest:So yeah, that's how that came to be.
Guest:And then I just said, when they told me that they could do that, I said to Mark, Oh, we got a, we got a sure thing here.
Guest:Like, I know that this one's going to be good.
Guest:Like I personally know this one's going to be good.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's what it was.
Marc:So you're on the right track there.
Marc:But I do have questions like, you know, I want to know from your wife, like, how did she get started doing this?
Marc:Like, what drew her to this line of work?
Guest:I could answer that for her because it happened when she and I were in a car together driving.
Guest:We were on vacation, summer vacation.
Guest:We were driving and we were listening to an episode of This American Life.
Guest:And I could tell you about that, but why don't I get her and you can ask her the questions and she'll tell her own story, which is always much better.
Guest:So hang on one sec.
Guest:Great.
Hey, Ed.
Why don't you come in?
Marc:Hi, Dawn.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:It's so nice to see you.
Marc:So this interview with Clarence Macklin was fantastic.
Marc:I'm guessing you listened to it.
Guest:I did.
Marc:So how much time did you spend with this person?
Guest:With Clarence?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, he mentioned we taught a class at Rikers.
Guest:So that was several months of us commuting to and from Rikers, which is not easy.
Marc:Oh, so wait, so you would be on like the bus with him, like commuting?
Guest:No, I drove.
Guest:I would pick him up off the island.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then there's this whole process to get on the island.
Guest:And then we would drive around forever looking for parking on the island.
Yeah.
Guest:And then go in and teach and then come out and reverse the process.
Guest:It's definitely not easy teaching on an island.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So tell me, how did you like even, you know, what drew you to this type of work?
Marc:Like, how did that come about?
Guest:It's actually, I can give the credit to Brendan.
Guest:Let's not do that.
Okay.
Guest:No, you know, he, working in radio, had a lot of access to various content that was out there.
Guest:And I think it was back in 2002, maybe, that he, we were in the car traveling and he played an episode of This American Life for me where they covered a production of Act 5 of Hamlet in a prison.
Marc:I remember that episode.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I've listened to it so many times now, and they repeat it a lot because it's such a fascinating episode.
Guest:And I was in school at the time, grad school, studying educational theater, and I had never heard of anything like that before.
Guest:You know, being able to use the arts...
Guest:For something that's not just self promotion, you know, like I was trying to be an actor and it's all about me, me, me.
Guest:And the idea of being able to kind of use it in a way that's for others really spoke to me.
Guest:And so through my grad program, I learned about rehabilitation through the arts through a professor.
Guest:And she happened to be going up to a prison up in Sullivan County to teach a class and brought me in as her assistant.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:And then I just kept doing it after that.
Marc:That's incredible.
Guest:Yeah, so I've taught.
Guest:I've been in a bunch of plays in the facility.
Guest:You briefly see a female performer in the film, but actually there's a lot more involved coming in as a female performer.
Marc:How did it feel seeing sort of a fictionalized version of something that you kind of dedicate your entire life to?
Marc:Like, how did that feel?
Guest:Weird.
Guest:So weird.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, first of all, I know most of the guys in the film.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, aside from Clarence, I've either been in plays with or taught or worked with or met people
Guest:basically every other guy who played a role.
Guest:And I love that they are playing themselves, which is so cool to see at the end that their character is them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was definitely weird, surreal at moments, but also just joyful, especially because I knew the men and I saw them having this moment to sort of shine.
Guest:It was just, it was a joy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I bet it's probably one thing if it was just completely fictionalized, but the fact that this film used people who were in those situations probably meant so much to you, right?
Marc:It must have been incredibly emotional to see them up on the big screen, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, especially because the filmmakers could have just cast actors.
Guest:So it is kind of taking a chance.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Casting almost entirely of non-professional actors.
Guest:But I met the filmmakers way, way, way back.
Guest:I don't even know if they'll remember me.
Guest:When they first started going into one of our facilities, they were teaching a film course.
Guest:And and so I did trust that they they understood the program enough and how important it would be to have that representation of having the actual men in the film.
Guest:So I give them a lot of credit for really being committed to that.
Marc:So Clarence was talking to Mark about like helping kids get out of gangs, reading to children.
Marc:Is that common with people who participate in the program that you work at?
Marc:Or is Clarence sort of like the diamond in the rough?
Guest:No, I have to say, through my years, that's a very common goal that I hear men having, saying, you know, when I leave here, I really want to work with youth to try to help them prevent ending up here.
Guest:So it's actually quite common.
Guest:I don't know that they all end up going into that as a profession.
Guest:Because, of course, once you leave prison...
Guest:Making money is really important and it's very hard to obtain employment.
Guest:So getting involved with that kind of work definitely does not pay amazingly.
Guest:So I think a lot of them aspire to it, but it's hard to know how many actually go into it.
Guest:But the desire is there for sure.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:Now, do you keep in contact with people that you've worked with?
Marc:Like, is that like a Facebook group or some sort of support group for people that are now out and are trying to, you know, be a part of the community?
Guest:I mean, I keep in touch with people that I've worked with inside or met inside.
Guest:You know, there is a Facebook page.
Guest:Mostly I do it individually with people who I've formed that connection with.
Guest:RTA does have...
Guest:alumni network so when alumni come home they get on like a listserv so a lot of opportunities can be sent out to everyone so yeah we try to keep some kind of connection when they come home
Guest:was there ever like a scary moment like were you involved in like a lockdown situation while you were you know working in the prison no no never in my 16 years i've never had anything and it's funny the women i first started going in with we used to kind of joke that
Guest:We felt so safe in the room that if anything did go down in the facility, we knew that the men in the room would protect us.
Guest:We found that the participants have become so protective of the program in general, and especially when there's females coming in, that it actually feels like a very, very safe environment when we're in there.
Guest:The worst thing that I experienced was getting all the way to the classroom
Guest:at a facility three hours away and we're there looking at the students and then we are told oh your your gate clearance isn't correct so you can't come in tonight so you have to turn around and drive the whole way back go on home so there's a lot of things like that that happen where you know there are rules that have to be followed and a lot of times there's no flexibility with those rules so
Guest:That's something that, as facilitators in the program, we're constantly having to navigate around and having to adapt to.
Guest:Like, my ability to adapt has grown significantly since working with RTA.
Marc:Oh, I bet.
Marc:I bet.
Marc:Since you knew that Clarence was going to be on the show with Mark, did Brendan ask you, like, hey, are there any questions Mark should ask?
Marc:And did you give him any questions?
No.
Guest:I think the only one that I heard Mark ask that I thought would be interesting to know is just with all of this momentum around Clarence as an actor, if he was still planning on doing all of the work with youth that he does, and I was happy to hear that he's still doing it, he's still planning to do it, because one of the great things about Clarence is he is such a role model.
Guest:Like, even grown men on Rikers, I saw how they...
Guest:looked up to him as like, whoa, that's what I could be when I leave here.
Guest:So if he can inspire kids and help keep them, you know, out of gangs and out of trouble, like I think...
Guest:He should be out there doing that.
Guest:Like he's the perfect person to do that.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And so how did you like the interview?
Marc:Did you did you did you feel like Mark captured, you know, Clarence's essence, like he got like the full story out of him?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, I've heard Clarence talk a lot about being the wolf when he first got into prison.
Guest:But I loved I loved hearing him talk about his evolution, you know, discovering and how he always liked the arts even before going into prison, that that was actually something that he got to explore in prison is sort of beautiful because I don't think that opportunity was ever afforded to him.
Guest:outside of prison and yeah i thought it i thought that uh clarence you know through mark's questioning really spoke so beautifully about why the arts are so effective in you know an incarcerated setting and how it really allows people to sort of work towards becoming their best self and in fact
Guest:One of the projects I've been working on for the past four years is developing a re-entry preparation program that does just that.
Guest:It uses the arts.
Guest:It encourages individuals to work on developing their...
Guest:their talents their strengths recognizing where they could work on things and really bringing attention to the kind of social emotional challenges they might face when they come home because you know that part in the film when someone walks behind Clarence his character and he and he like freaks out and gets all aggressive that happens when people come home from prison like that um
Guest:The way the brain has to adapt to that setting doesn't just go away when you come home.
Guest:So, you know, I've heard stories of men being like at a party and they have to stand against the wall because they're so afraid of letting anyone walk behind them.
Guest:And so the program, this reentry program called Reimagining Myself is really about, you know, how can we help prepare men ahead of time for, or I should say, incarcerated individuals ahead of time for all of these emotions and emotions.
Guest:you know, psychological challenges that they're going to face when they come home because not a lot is currently done to prepare people in that way.
Guest:There's a lot of like resume writing and, you know, there's a lot of stuff to prepare for sort of practical things, but the social emotional piece...
Guest:is just as important.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And I'm glad that they have you to help facilitate that.
Marc:And what you do for not only these fine individuals, but for, I think I can speak for everyone, but what you do for Brendan to make him be a better person, because I'm sure it rubs off on him just as much as it rubs off on Owen.
Marc:I'm so glad that
Marc:that your two boys have you in their lives because you are such an inspirational person.
Marc:And it's really fantastic knowing you.
Marc:And I'm happy to call you my friend.
Marc:And thank you for this.
Guest:Well, that is just the sweetest thing ever.
Marc:But you're just the sweetest person ever.
Marc:Well, thank you, Kyle.
Guest:But definitely ask Brendan that question.
Guest:I want to hear what he says.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:How does Don inspire you on a daily basis?
Marc:Dawn, this was great.
Marc:Anything else you want to add about this interview?
Guest:You know, if people are interested in learning more about RTA, they can go to rta-arts.org and you can learn more about RTA.
Marc:everything they do there and maybe how you want to get involved excellent and i check it out i'm sure brennan's gonna put that in our episode notes so uh be sure to look for that excellent thank you thanks chris you're awesome that was nice all right how was that that went well that went great i i you have to ask you a question how does dawn inspire you on a daily basis
Guest:Oh, well, you know, I'm assuming she's never going to listen to this.
Guest:So I'll just say, you know, whatever I feel like saying here.
Guest:No, I mean, okay, on a daily basis, she's an amazing wife and mother.
Guest:And so that's the, like, daily stuff where it's like, oh, this would break most people.
Guest:And, you know, she's still standing.
Guest:So that's like, but in terms of, like, the real inspiring thing,
Guest:As I'm sure she told you, you know, it's like when she first heard about this kind of work, it was because she was acting herself.
Guest:You know, it was it was it was something that she decided sounded and felt more fulfilling to her soul and spirit.
Guest:And.
Guest:I cast no negative judgment on anyone who pursues acting, obviously.
Guest:We have lots and lots of people on this show, on WTF, who have struggled or not struggled and hit it big out of almost a lottery ticket or grinded away for years and years.
Guest:And...
Guest:My true admiration for Dawn is that she thought to herself like, I'm like pursuing this on behalf of me.
Guest:And here's a thing I can pursue that satisfies something for me, but also is for others.
Guest:And isn't just like for others, like in the sense of like, oh, it's going to help this person you're working with directly.
Guest:Like I found from the start, the kind of work that she did in the prison settings to be like beneficial to humanity.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like I remember when she first started doing this work and we'd hear like, you know, interviews with people who were doing the same type of work, people who had the same type of organizations.
Guest:Like I always remember for me as a person who wasn't doing the actual work and just listening to it.
Guest:The thing that stuck with me the most was one of the women who was running an organization that had arts inside of, you know, facilities like this.
Guest:And they said to her, you know, she always deals with people saying, why do these prisoners deserve this kind of, you know, program?
Guest:Like, didn't these people do something bad?
Guest:And that's like, that's always the thing.
Guest:Like, you have to jump quite a hurdle to get certain people to understand that, like...
Guest:You're not passing that judgment on a person you're offering this to.
Guest:It doesn't matter what you've done in the past.
Guest:The idea is now.
Guest:And that's just not what a lot of people have in their heads about prison, right?
Guest:They're like, you did something wrong.
Guest:You're in there to be punished, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this woman answered it in the best way I ever heard.
Guest:And it's like, it's the thing that stuck with me was, you know, she said, we're working in prison populations where people
Guest:most of the people in here are going to get out when they get out how would you like them to be right and it's like it's like do you do you want them coming out the way they were when they went in right or would you like it to be different
Guest:And I really like it started me because it was one of those things where I was like, I'm already bought in.
Guest:So how do you get people who are not bought in to be on the same page with you?
Guest:And that was the thing I was like, oh, that's it.
Guest:You make people who are fearful realize that their fears are not only unfounded, their fears are worse without a mechanism like this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I just have always thought, you know, this is, you know, frankly, it's obviously Dawn and people who do this type of work feel rewarded by it.
Guest:But I feel like it's very selfless work.
Guest:I feel like even though it requires a lot of expression and artistic achievement, it's done on behalf of all of us.
Guest:And we should all be grateful to it.
Guest:And I would be grateful and inspired by her if I didn't even know her, if I was just listening to this, you know.
Guest:So I have the good fortune to have that here in my home and not just out in the world as a stranger.
Guest:So, you know, like I said, it's going to be second order business for me when all is said and done that I'm like, oh, no, she was a great wife and mother first.
Guest:But her, her work and her, her, her drive to do that work is equally as inspiring.
Guest:And well, I mean, I hope maybe someone, all it takes is one person as she is a, you know, proof of to hear something like this and then be like, well, I want to do something similar.
Guest:So.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And, and yeah, it like all it takes is one person and it's fun to see like her, uh,
Marc:influence on so many people.
Marc:And it's, if you think about it, it just grows and grows.
Marc:Like it's like a, it's like a tree that is just blossoming.
Marc:Like all of her, you know, it's just, it's great work that she does.
Guest:I mean, it's, it's really, it's the, it's, you know, this is a very hyper specific type of education and it's, it's not only arts education, it's arts education within incarcerated populations, but it's like, ultimately this is what all teachers are.
Guest:Good teachers are doing the greatest work in the world.
Guest:They're completely underpaid and undervalued.
Guest:And, you know, every day that goes by that we don't acknowledge that is a day wasted.
Marc:Yeah, agreed.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:Thank you for talking to Dawn and having some questions for her.
Marc:It's my pleasure.
Marc:Always, always a treat.
Guest:Well, I'm glad we did that.
Guest:And, you know, we were going to do something else this week.
Guest:We're going to talk about something.
Guest:I think what would be a good idea right now is to kind of set it up because there's a little bit of like a strategy here that I had in hopes that it wouldn't totally spoil things for listeners.
Guest:And now I think what would be a great thing to do is like kind of tip listeners off to something that we watched and...
Guest:And now we can kind of tease it out.
Guest:And next week, if they want to watch it, they can be looped into our kind of final discussion on it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And this was, you know, I'm just like kind of looking around like, what's out there?
Guest:Like, you know, we're kind of in between watching Tarantino movies.
Guest:We just watch some stuff about canon films and that.
Guest:I'm like, what's next?
Guest:What can we do?
Guest:What's like, is there something zeitgeisty?
Guest:Is there something we're missing?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it also has to be like a reasonable lift.
Guest:Like I'm not going to start watching like, you know, Yellowstone or something like that.
Guest:But I had been hearing about this thing, Ren Faire on HBO, this documentary series.
Guest:And it just was kept bubbling up for me with people talking about it.
Guest:And I was a little skeptical about it because...
Guest:You know, I thought it was like Tiger King stuff.
Guest:And I watched the Tiger King and I fucking hated it.
Guest:So like I was like, I don't know.
Guest:I don't like, you know, these kind of like manipulative things.
Guest:I don't love being pulled into the direction of them.
Guest:But I said to you, you know, hey, you think you can watch this?
Guest:It's three episodes.
Guest:It's not a huge commitment.
Guest:It's like three episodes, 50 minutes each.
Guest:And you, you, I think you had it on your list.
Guest:You were planning to watch it, right?
Marc:Well, because I love Renaissance fairs.
Marc:Like that's a thing.
Guest:Oh, well, we'll get into that.
Guest:Well, yes.
Guest:Go right ahead.
Guest:Well, so I said, let's watch this.
Guest:And I turned it on and I had no idea.
Guest:I just thought it was a thing about a documentary about a Renaissance affair.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I had no idea that this is basically succession.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like within 10 minutes, I was so thrilled.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It was like, oh, oh, this is success.
Marc:But by the way, there are so many things in life where I'm like, oh, this could be succession.
Marc:Like, like, uh, like the WWE, like, oh my gosh, you kind of, you could have just made succession, but with wrestling guys.
Guest:What just happened with Paramount.
Guest:That was literally like one person thing trying to figure out who's going to own the company.
Marc:And one person being like, nah, I don't want to do it.
Marc:Like, yes.
Marc:It's life imitates art.
Marc:And it was hard for me to realize that I'm like, this isn't like a, this is a documentary, right?
Marc:This isn't like staged, right?
Marc:Cause it feels like so staged.
Guest:Well, that was the other thing I figured it.
Guest:I found out the person who made this, his name is Lance Oppenheim.
Guest:I didn't know his work.
Guest:The other thing he made that he got noticed for was a documentary about the villages in Florida that
Guest:called Some Kind of Heaven, which I'm sure I just did not watch because of PTSD reasons.
Guest:It's probably a good movie, but no thank you.
Guest:Yeah, I'll pass.
Guest:Right, especially now.
Guest:We're going back to that.
Guest:Yeah, oh my God, oh my God.
Guest:But I found out he was literally a student of Ross McElwee.
Guest:And by a student, I don't mean just like a watcher of Ross McElwee.
Guest:Like Ross McElwee was one of his teachers.
Guest:And you don't know who Ross McElwee is, as you just said.
Guest:He is a documentary filmmaker who made one of the most influential docs of all time called Sherman's March.
Guest:And I watched that in college and I fucking loved it.
Guest:It is absolutely like in the DNA of American movie, Michael Moore's films, so much like that.
Guest:The idea behind Sherman's March was this guy, Ross...
Guest:was going to make a documentary about General Tecumseh Sherman's march to the sea in the Civil War.
Guest:He's going to go to the places and plot it out.
Guest:And what winds up happening is he just instead tells a whole story about how he lost this girlfriend and he keeps trying to get a new girlfriend.
Guest:And he's telling it in parallel tradition to Sherman's march to the sea.
Guest:Oh, no way.
Guest:Like it is one of those things that like I remember sitting in class in college and the teacher was like, we're going to watch this documentary Sherman's March.
Guest:I was like, fucking Civil War doc.
Guest:I need to watch this.
Guest:And like it is one of those things like you're watching.
Guest:You're like, wait a minute.
Guest:This is this was allowed like document.
Guest:I feel like this guy didn't get like drummed out of the documentary society like this.
Guest:And and that's the thing.
Guest:Like it paved the way for so much of the type of doc.
Guest:treatment that we're used to now, where it's actually like a comedy, but being done as a documentary, right?
Guest:Or a, you know, a thing that highlights a personality and tells some story behind that person.
Guest:But really what you're there for is the personality.
Guest:I mean, reality TV is like built on the foundations of Sherman's March.
Guest:So when I found out that that's who this dude was, I was like...
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So, and yes, you're right.
Guest:This thing feels like blurring the lines tremendously.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which a lot of times I'm bothered by, like with the jinx where I was like, you guys totally fucking took that out of context.
Guest:Like that's not cool.
Guest:But this, it doesn't matter because it's a generally stupid thing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're like, okay, if you're going to make this seem more interesting than it is, I'm on board.
Guest:And the other thing is it's got these great fucking cameras, man.
Marc:It's great cameras.
Marc:I mean, just everything looked like pristine.
Marc:It looks like a Michael Bay movie.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I was like, this is a Hollywood movie, right?
Marc:Or a series.
Marc:It just doesn't... It not only has great cameras, it has great characters as well.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Before we get into them, I will tell everyone this is streaming on Max.
Guest:It was on HBO and it is streaming on Max.
Guest:And as I said, it is three episodes.
Guest:So if you have Max or you have other ways to get shows on Max, however you might do that...
Guest:Go ahead and watch this.
Guest:It's real quick.
Guest:It's like you can either watch it in one sitting or break it up overnights and it's less than an hour each time, three times.
Guest:And the main reason to watch it is what Chris is saying, is these characters, which unlike the Tiger King...
Guest:or things like that, or, you know, certain reality shows where you're dealing with disordered people who are, you know, basically performing for the camera.
Guest:These people, if they are performing for the camera are like no good at it.
Guest:And so, so it, it has a real feel of like a Christopher guest movie, but with, without actors, like they're really just like the Christopher guest characters.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just said it's a curse of a guest movie set in a Renaissance fair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so this apparently is the largest Renaissance fair in America.
Guest:It's in Texas.
Guest:It's in its own town in Texas because the guy took a page out of Walt Disney's book and incorporated a town.
Guest:So he could have this 800 acre Renaissance fair.
Guest:And it's the biggest one.
Guest:It is not the first one.
Guest:I just think it's an important detail that you find out through the movie that like he, this guy used to work at a Renaissance fair in like San Francisco.
Guest:And so he was just like, yeah, I'll just go do that somewhere else.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that guy is the owner and proprietor of this Ren Faire named George Kulam.
Guest:The king.
Guest:He's the king.
Guest:He used to play the king at the Renaissance Faire.
Guest:But now he is just the king of this town that he invented for the Renaissance Fair.
Guest:And everyone is his subjects and they're all talking about him in various ways.
Guest:You talk about a king.
Guest:It's just, it's a...
Guest:it's one of those guys that when a documentary filmmaker stumbles upon this guy and finds him willing to participate, you're like, Oh shit.
Guest:I got to make sure nothing bad happens.
Guest:Cause I got a gold mine here with this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's what I felt the entire time.
Marc:And like, want to know how the filmmaker like was able to,
Marc:get everyone to be so candid, because it's just a very candid, like, personal moment where, like, I mean, there's stuff that I would never agree to have a camera on, like going to Germany and just sitting down to watch, you know, the Big Bang Theory in German.
Marc:Like, what?
Marc:What are we doing?
Guest:Well, here's my theory on why this works so well, because as you find out from all these people, they've been involved in the Ren Faire for a very long time.
Guest:And a lot of them were performing in the Ren Faire.
Guest:In fact, a lot of them were like, you know, actors who they're like acting career didn't pan out.
Guest:And so this became their outlet.
Guest:And so of course they want to be on camera.
Guest:Of course they want to be performative.
Guest:And so those are the perfect people to, to deal with.
Guest:And so in this, the characters you start to meet, like we said, the King who's lording over the whole place there.
Guest:And he, he is, uh,
Guest:Oh, man, what a weird guy this is.
Guest:You start to learn about him that basically there's some kind of control issues going on here that he's had with relationships in his life, with his whole family.
Guest:friends and family having left him like this renaissance fair is really all he's got left and he's 85 years old now and as he says though he's trying to retire because the only things he wants are companion art garden that's what he keeps saying over and over again there's three things he wants a companion to be with him which means he's gonna like pay someone to be his you know uh you know
Guest:paid for bride yeah uh he wants to make his art which he started out as an artist and he wants to tend to his garden but what you really find out is all he cares about is fucking yes this guy just wants to fuck all the time he's angry that he can't fuck all the time he's angry that when he can fuck all the time the people though he can pay to fuck are uh too young to understand his thoughts about poetry and art and
Marc:Or they have some sort of, you know, they have artificial breasts, which he is not a fan of.
Guest:No, no, natural only.
Guest:Literally the one scene I could not watch was when he had to date.
Guest:I was like, can't do it.
Guest:I'm fast forwarding this part.
Marc:Can I tell you something, though?
Marc:He does something that I actually suggest, and that is he sits on the same side of the booth as the person.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Okay, no, no, no.
Guest:Everything else is like, no.
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:Although him doing that, I don't suggest because he's horrifying.
Guest:He has a holdover eye, right?
Guest:Like Paul Giamatti in the holdover, where one day it's pointing this way, then the other day the other eye is going the other way.
Guest:Or the Dr. Feelgood from Cannonball Run.
Marc:I mean, he's basically the character from that Dan Aykroyd movie.
Guest:Nothing But Trouble?
Guest:The judge?
Guest:Yeah, he's the judge.
Marc:He's the judge in Nothing But Trouble.
Marc:It is remarkable.
Guest:And so then you start to meet the people who are trying to succeed this guy.
Guest:If he wants to retire, they want to be the people to take over.
Guest:So you've got the general manager, Jeff, who's kind of like the nice guy pushover.
Guest:And what he really just wants is for the guy to die and bequeath the Ren Faire to him.
Guest:He's not actually trying to push the guy out or to buy the place.
Guest:And then you meet Louis, the Lord of Corn,
Guest:Who is this guy?
Marc:I mean, Jeremy Strong.
Marc:Jeremy Strong should sue him.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:He is.
Marc:He is Kendall.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Ambitious, but not talented.
Guest:Completely unselfaware.
Guest:A dork.
Guest:All hopped up on energy drinks, spouting like, you know, catchphrases and, you know, jargon.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:He is, he is quite the character and honestly my favorite, like the Lord of corn.
Guest:I mean, just Lord of corn because he is the, his job at, he's not a job.
Guest:He is a vendor, you know, it's a Renaissance fair.
Guest:So they bring in outside vendors to, to, to run the booths.
Guest:And his booth is the kettle corn, which is, you know, the big business at the park is the kettle corn.
Guest:And yeah, this guy wants to buy the Ren Faire and he's got all these big plans and his investors were just his family.
Guest:Like, oh, I got the investors coming.
Guest:And like the thing just sometimes says like Louie's family.
Marc:It's like, it's like Michael Scott going like asking for investors and it's his grandmother.
Marc:Like that's who this guy has.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:There's also Lauren Croft, the assistant GM to Jeffrey.
Marc:So, yeah, there's quite – there are so many dynamics and it mirrors the show Succession so perfectly.
Marc:Like it's like – it's uncanny how this is like a funhouse mirror to Succession.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it is also, the thing is that, and this goes back to you saying like, how do these people agree to this or whatever?
Guest:The fact that it is in this Renaissance fair, like the costumes and the characters that, that, that are making up their daily lives, it just completely fucks with any attempt for this to be serious.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, like, I mean, this is ultimately these are people's real people and their real lives.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's this ridiculous thing.
Guest:And they've filled it with this purpose.
Guest:This one guy, the manager, he keeps calling King George, he keeps calling him Willy Wonka.
Guest:And he's got this whole thing about... Every time he starts talking about the guy, it's all about, well, when Wonka gave the factory to Charlie, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And it's like, this is a...
Guest:bog standard Ren Faire.
Guest:Like there is nothing about this thing that doesn't occur all over the country at every other Ren Faire.
Guest:This is not Disney World.
Guest:This is not some like special once in a lifetime occurrence.
Guest:He goes over to Germany to see the other Ren Faires and it's like, he's like, oh, they had a lot of ideas over there.
Guest:It looks exactly the same as their Ren Faire.
Yes.
Guest:And so all of that leads to... I also love that there's a driver who's just like Logan's driver.
Guest:He's the one guy that the king will kind of talk to and be like...
Guest:well, this guy wants to do this, but I don't know.
Guest:Like he has the same kind of, I want to say like nihilistic approach to humanity that Logan Roy does.
Guest:Like where he's just like, man, I'm not sure people are very smart or good and we really shouldn't have to like kowtow to them.
Guest:And one woman even says, like, oh, to him, this is all just a game, right?
Guest:Life is just a game and everyone here is his pawns.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, yeah, this was totally Logan.
Guest:Like, it just goes to show how good succession was because it captures what obviously happens when people amass power.
Guest:Like, the idea that this guy is the king is exactly true.
Guest:Like, he was the king of these...
Marc:Like, that's it.
Marc:I mean, it's a tale as always time.
Marc:It is a power.
Marc:I mean, we're seeing it, unfortunately, in the United States with our political situation.
Marc:Once you're in power, you do not want to leave that power.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Like, everything else is meaningless.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:But the other thing about that, though, is that with this, just like the show Succession,
Guest:There's no succeeding this, right?
Guest:Like, I'm not spoiling anything.
Guest:And there's a reason I'm not spoiling anything.
Guest:I'll mention that in a second.
Guest:But I'm not spoiling anything to say, like, this was what occurred to me within like the first 10 minutes of this.
Guest:Like, you're not going to inherit this from this guy.
Guest:Like this exists and dies with this guy, like whatever the idea they have, because once once he's gone, it's just like I said, it's your baseline Ren Faire.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And so like everything that these people all are hypnotized by with this dude is it's like it's going to die the moment he does.
Guest:Uh, and so like, it's just, it's one of those things that like unplugs the tension, but at the same time, you're like, Oh my God, what are these?
Guest:Why, why are they trying so hard to win this place over?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, uh, that guy, uh, Jeffrey, the general manager, uh,
Marc:He's such a... It's almost like he's Dwight from The Office.
Marc:He's such a character onto himself.
Marc:And I think that's why The Office was so connected with so many people.
Marc:Because this is just...
Marc:a guy that people know and like, Oh yeah, this guy who takes everything so seriously listens to the Shrek musical, uh, on, you know, uh, seriously listens to it.
Marc:So like, yeah, there's just, there's a lot going on with, uh, with these characters.
Guest:Uh, well now you watched the whole thing.
Marc:Yes, I did watch the whole thing.
Guest:Now, I did not.
Guest:I stopped at episode two because I didn't want to be put in a situation to spoil it.
Guest:I didn't want to hint or give anything away for people who haven't seen it yet.
Guest:But I feel like, as soon as I get off with you, I'm going to watch the rest of it.
Guest:And I feel like a week is a good enough amount of time
Guest:that if you're listening to this and you would like to go watch this, if you haven't seen it already, we will next week give our opinions on the whole thing and how it winds up and how it ends and whether or not we found it satisfying.
Guest:We'll do it.
Guest:We'll do the whole spoiler treatment.
Guest:We'll do it toward the end of the thing.
Guest:So if you want to bail before you hear it,
Guest:If you're not looking to watch this yet or you don't like spoilers, we'll give you a good enough heads up.
Guest:But if you want to check this out, Ren Faire on Max, three episodes, go watch and we will talk about the rest of it next week.
Guest:And if there's anything else like that that you want us to get into, go to the comments section.
Guest:You can either send us stuff about Ren Faire or send us stuff like this that we can watch and talk about here on the show.
Marc:Get the King Scroller to scroll to Max.
Marc:The King Scroller.
Guest:The King Scroller is like, you know, disaffected, you know, millennial who his whole job is to go through the King's dating sites, which are all like sugar daddy sites.
Marc:Insane.
Marc:Like just insane real life stuff happening in this thing.
Marc:You should all check it out.
Guest:All right, well, I'll watch the rest of it, and we will talk about it next week.
Guest:We will also get into anything else that comes up, either what you're sending in to us or what's on WTF, and we will, in two weeks, watch Inglourious Bastards, the sixth Quentin Tarantino film, if you're looking to prepare for that as well.
Marc:By the way, I'm in the midst of the screenplay for that, and let me just say, it snapped you to attention.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I can't wait to hear.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, until we get to that, I am Brendan and that is Chris.
Guest:Peace.