BONUS The Friday Show - Sunday Night Special
Marc:I mean, like the Brady Bunch or like Different Strokes would have a very special episode.
Marc:Like that would be like the exception.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was they had to have to market it that way.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like you had to let everyone know this thing that you're used to it being this one way.
Guest:It's going to go another way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For this one week, which actually wound up becoming a stunt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You like you do it to get attention.
Guest:Like, oh, that show that's the same every week.
Guest:It's going to be different.
Yeah.
Guest:Hey, Chris.
Guest:Brandon.
Guest:Mark has COVID.
Guest:I think he's done, frankly.
Guest:It's Friday.
Guest:I think he's totally fine.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I mean, he does have a show today.
Guest:That's how it goes now.
Guest:You know, I was talking to him about this yesterday because he was like, I just kind of feel like I have a cold now and it's not bad at all and I'm not that tired or anything.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure this is how colds have happened.
Guest:since the beginning of humans, right?
Guest:Or like when, since we could get colds, you know, they probably started out by killing a lot of people.
Guest:And then over time, they're just now annoying, right?
Guest:And like, we're going through the same thing with this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I feel like Mark is unfortunately still stuck in.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:I have COVID.
Marc:I have to lock it down.
Marc:I have to tell people that I have COVID and they have a test and stuff.
Marc:So yeah, I feel like we're out of that phase.
Marc:And I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I fully agree with you.
Guest:Tell people you don't go around places for a few days.
Marc:For sure.
Guest:Like,
Guest:You don't have to do the wait until you get the test result that says you're not, you know, contagious anymore.
Guest:It's like, you know, take some precautions, mask up, stay away from people or whatever.
Guest:But like when you're not symptomatic anymore, you just got to go back to life.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:And I thought Mark was great.
Marc:Like, oh, I just misted COVID everywhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There was like, my initial inclination is always like, you know, a cough or a sneeze or something.
Guest:You take that out.
Guest:But that was too great.
Guest:I was like, oh, that's like perfect.
Guest:He was just like, oh, COVID missed.
Guest:Like he's got it in a spray bottle.
Guest:Just sprays it around.
Marc:Just for a guest he doesn't like.
Marc:Just use my COVID missed.
Yeah.
Marc:He's a Batman villain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or like, you know, like you're trying to teach your dog not to do certain behaviors.
Yeah.
Guest:I think he's OK.
Guest:And it's Friday night.
Guest:So those of you who are seeing him in in Tucson, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Guest:I would guess.
Guest:I mean, maybe the front rows take a little bit of risk.
Guest:But no, I think he should be good.
Marc:He's he seems good to go.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:And he was good to go with Eric Roberts, who I'll be honest with you, definitely.
Marc:mark was rattling off all these movies and i'm like uh-huh uh-huh haven't seen any of these no but you know eric roberts yes i know right like that's the thing yeah i mean he's in the righteous gemstones and he's brilliant in righteous gemstones and uh and uh that's something that you should be watching as well but yeah he is he is a known quantity eric roberts is just in the ether of uh of my life
Guest:I just remember him because when I was, you know, probably of the age, like my son is now 12, 13, I would sneak like late night cable movies and he was all over those.
Marc:So that's the thing.
Guest:Is there a sexy cop doing something here?
Guest:Oh, look, it's this guy, Eric Roberts.
Marc:I know him.
Marc:That's the thing.
Marc:In my house, my Roman Catholic stupid family, sex was the one thing that was not okay.
Marc:Yeah, who are you talking to?
Guest:I grew up in the same way, but that's why.
Guest:Why do you think I was trying to wait until everybody went to bed and watched it?
Marc:I guess you found a way around it.
Marc:I never did.
Guest:Yeah, the way I found it around it was walk downstairs and put the TV on after everyone went to bed.
Guest:That was so hard.
Guest:I can't believe I figured that out.
Guest:Really cracked the case.
Marc:Like Mission Impossible over here.
Guest:Yeah, it came down like on a cable through the roof.
Yeah.
Guest:oh yeah so eric roberts always with the skin of max movies yeah yeah but like then because of that i do remember being like oh that's julia roberts brother and he's like oh oh okay he was i like i've always remembered him as like oh this troubled guy like that's how he's always been in my head because like i would look back and be i remember seeing runaway train like that was on tv when i was a kid and like i'm like oh that's that eric roberts guy and you know
Guest:You just remember certain people who then go away from the consciousness.
Guest:It's like Mickey Rourke was in the same boat, same exact boat, frankly, because I remember him from like disreputable movies on late night cable and then be like, oh, that guy was like a star, though, at one point.
Guest:Huh?
Guest:I didn't know that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love that he was commented on Mark's coffee.
Marc:It's like, oh, dynamite, dude.
Marc:Coffee dynamite.
Marc:I love that.
Guest:It was funny.
Guest:Like he had like this attitude that was very like, you could tell that this is a guy who likes to bust balls, but it never like crosses a line.
Guest:Like, I mean, maybe it has in his life and it's gotten him into trouble, but it, it, it doesn't,
Guest:It didn't with Mark anyway, ever fall into a territory where I was like, oh, he's trying to alpha him or intimidate him or be disrespectful.
Guest:But he just has this quality about him.
Guest:Like Mark will say something and be like, yeah, what do you think, pal?
Marc:Of course.
Yes.
Marc:Uh, I also loved, uh, him talking about stuttering and, uh, he was like, Hey, ask, uh, someone who stutters, like who abused them.
Marc:And, uh, you know what?
Marc:He's not wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That was a, that was an eye opener for me.
Guest:Like, because I mean, or it's also, it's like it brushed up against the one from a couple of weeks ago with Drew Lynch where it's like, well, nobody abused him, but his brain got abused by an accident.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:His brain got abused by a baseball or softball for sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The floor, the ground of a softball field.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was paging through that Eric Roberts book.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And he's very honest about things like that's the thing.
Guest:Like, you know, I like when books like this come out and a person is just like, yep, I fucked that up or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:or there's this great you remember i think it was a how did this get made episode they did about this weird kids movie called a talking cat and and uh it's like you know but it basically sounds like uh the room you know like made for like five cents and like some foreign director who is not sure what comedy is is not sure what humans are let alone comedy
Guest:And it just sounds like a total, you know, fantastic disaster.
Guest:Eric Roberts is the voice of the cat in that.
Guest:And in the book, he's like, yeah, I took that job.
Guest:It was about a cat.
Guest:I like cats.
Guest:He also turned down playing Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:He was called in to audition.
Guest:Scorsese requested him to come in and audition.
Guest:He auditioned.
Guest:He said he did it like four or five times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And did screen tests.
Guest:He did it with Harvey Keitel, who he said they just killed it.
Guest:He loved working with him, like as a scene partner.
Guest:And he got the part and turned it down.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And he said he turned it down at the advice of his agent.
Guest:And he's like, not to throw my agent under the bus because I fully agreed with him.
Guest:It wasn't like he convinced me of it.
Guest:But he said, the agent said, nobody comes back from playing Jesus.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:You know, you just look at the history of anybody who's played Jesus.
Guest:Nobody bounces back from it.
Guest:And so he was he got scared and he turned it down and he said Scorsese was so pissed.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:He he he called him and was just fucking furious.
Guest:And he was like, why did you even audition for me?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Eric Roberts said, I wanted to come to your attention.
Guest:And Scorsese goes, you came to my attention.
Guest:I gave you the part.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Now you're just wasting my time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, even worse than that, Roberts realizes in the telling of this that like, oh, this was his baby.
Guest:Like he had wanted to make this forever.
Guest:He couldn't.
Guest:There was that period of time where he thought he was making it and they turned him, you know, they rejected it.
Guest:The studio pulled it at the last minute.
Guest:He had to go off and make After Hours instead.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's just been struggling to make this movie forever.
Guest:His whole heart was in it.
Guest:I remember seeing an interview with Paul Schrader and he was like, of the three movies I made with Scorsese, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, and Last Temptation of Christ, they were all three basically made by a different guy.
Guest:That Taxi Driver was mostly me, Schrader, and Raging Bull was mostly De Niro.
Guest:Like his influence was all over that.
Guest:But Last Temptation of Christ was all Scorsese.
Guest:Like it was his...
Guest:it was his baby.
Guest:And Eric Roberts was like, man, I could have probably been in a ton of that guy's movies.
Guest:Like, you know, it was, it was, you know, if I, if I delivered with that, it didn't matter that like, Oh, nobody plays Jesus anymore.
Guest:This guy would have employed me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I would have been in doors moment.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yay.
Marc:That's a bummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He did like he was telling it's telling the story in the book, not like a, you know, I fucked up my life doing this.
Guest:It's just like, these are the things that happen when you're an actor.
Guest:You just sometimes it works out.
Guest:Sometimes it doesn't.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:You know, it's funny.
Marc:Mark mentioned, like, I didn't read the book because I don't want to, like, lead you into stories that you, like, already know.
Marc:And it got me wondering, like, what do you produce?
Marc:Like, how – like, so you just thumb through the book.
Marc:You don't really, you know, read the book.
Guest:It depends.
Guest:I mean, like, yeah, there's a lot of times where I, you know –
Guest:I would say the vast majority of the time I do not have time to read an entire book.
Guest:Mark has much more time to read a book if he chooses.
Guest:It's like he just chose to read the full deal of that Kathleen Hanna book.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I think what he starts to notice is whether or not the book, like there's several criteria that need to be met.
Guest:Sometimes it's a person who he's not sure they're good at talking, right?
Guest:Like,
Guest:but they might have an interesting story.
Guest:And so if he reads the book and he does recount things to them through the book, he can get them talking.
Guest:Like a good example of this was another rock singer, Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth, who he knew is like from, you know, her reputation.
Guest:She's just not great at interviews.
Guest:It's not like that.
Guest:She is, you know, it's a,
Guest:It's just not something she likes to do.
Guest:So it's not super great.
Guest:And so he knew he was going to have to, like, you know, get that there by following up a blueprint.
Guest:And the book is the blueprint where like a perfect example of the flip side of that Thurston Moore.
Guest:I think Mark like paged through the book, but he didn't like go like, I have to commit this to memory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:because I need to guide this guy.
Guest:This guy is going to talk about all this stuff.
Guest:And it's funny.
Guest:It's like two people from the same band who used to be married, same types of stories, but he knew one person, he's going to have to really focus on the material in the book to help this conversation along.
Guest:Whereas the other one is a conversationalist and they can just bounce through, you know, thing to thing to thing.
Guest:And it actually makes it worse.
Guest:Like it makes it worse with a guy like Eric Roberts, who's, who's ready to like tell stories or whatever.
Guest:If you're like,
Guest:you know, Oh, that story that you told.
Guest:And then you like, it happened.
Guest:There's a moment in it where Eric knows that Mark read about it in the book.
Guest:So he almost tries to not tell the story.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, and it's something, you know, something about where his dad, uh, you know, something about his dad and the property they had or something.
Guest:And Mark says it.
Guest:And Eric's like, yeah, yeah, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was crazy.
Guest:And Mark's like, well, tell me about it.
Guest:Like he, he,
Guest:And that winds up happening a ton if the guest sitting across from you knows you read the book, right?
Guest:Because then they're just like, I don't want to be redundant.
Guest:This guy already knows my story.
Guest:And they're not thinking about the many people listening who have no idea, right?
Guest:They're just thinking about the guy sitting across from them.
Guest:So yeah, it's strategic and you just kind of have to play it out as it lays.
Guest:I think like from my point of view, I'm not going off of the book as a blueprint at all.
Guest:I'm going off the...
Guest:idea of how do you get a full arc of an interview out of this guy book or no book and so that the research i'm sending to mark is based largely not on the book is based on well what else is out there what has he been talking about what hasn't he been talking about what's where where's the where's the meat of this
Marc:Did you mention to Mark that, hey, this guy hung out with Robin Williams?
Marc:Because that was Mark asked basically like, well, what did Robin tell you?
Marc:Like when you were hanging out, you kind of said it a couple of times to the point where I thought Mark was like, tell me about Robin Williams.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's a perfect example where it's like Mark knew something that was in the book and didn't want to just be like, well, and on page whatever, you mentioned that he said this, which then sounds like an NPR interview.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he's just trying to get him there to something that I guess to Eric, it was not integral to the story.
Guest:So he just didn't get there with it.
Guest:Gotcha.
Guest:But that's the dance you have to play when you do the kind of interview Mark does.
Guest:And you don't want the thing to be like questions and answers.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, you talk about in the book that you said this.
Guest:Can you expand on that, please?
Marc:That's boring.
Marc:That's not a WTF episode.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:So actually, off topic a little, Keith Richards.
Marc:When Keith Richards was on, what kind of producing did you have to do?
Marc:Did you have to give Mark anything to do?
Guest:Well, that's one of those things where it's like more like I'm producing his nerves and his insecurities, right?
Guest:Like, you know, I don't want to say it was full, but I mean, the Obama interview, we prepared a lot.
Guest:Like I was at his house and we sat and produced that episode like structurally and research-wise together.
Guest:And there was a lot.
Guest:I didn't have to do that with Keith Richards, but I also know, well, I don't need to give Mark information about Keith Richards.
Guest:You just have to settle him.
Guest:Yeah, it was more about like, you know, if we're if we're talking about, oh, what are you going to start with?
Guest:How about you start with this?
Guest:How about you do this?
Guest:You know, or, you know, it'd be great is if you could eventually get them around to this point where, you know, you saw them play in 1980 here and you noticed this about them.
Guest:What were they doing in their lives then?
Guest:Like, yeah.
Guest:for me to kind of help him keep it an interview and not just freak out because he's sitting across from one of his idols.
Guest:Like that was definitely what we did with that was similar to doing that with, with Lorne, you know, it's like, I don't have to like tell Mark how to interview Lorne Michaels, but I have to kind of help him to keep his own experience.
Guest:emotions about it in check and to you know how access them and to be able to talk you know from his own perspective which was great because like talking to lauren michaels like the first few minutes is all about mark's audition right so perfect we're already in on that level but i also have to have him thinking like it can't all be just you going like why didn't i get cast in snl it's you you have to approach this like you know a host and
Guest:You're the interviewer and people are going to listen to this.
Guest:So what can you get out of this that's unique to you and to this show that's going to, you know, illuminate Lorne Michaels for people?
Guest:And so those are situations where I'm working almost more like a coach.
Guest:than as a producer right yeah i i think of you as like uh he's in a boxing ring and you're the you're the guy you know on the on the side telling exactly you gotta tell him like where where where to throw a jab and hey look you're doing great here but you do have to watch your footwork you know like that kind of stuff
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I also loved Jason Ritter.
Marc:Jason Ritter, by the way, sounds like, and I hope this isn't offensive, but it sounds like the DuckTales version of his dad.
Marc:Like, he sounds similar to his dad, but it just sped up a little bit.
Marc:Yeah, that's funny.
Marc:I mean, obviously, like, that should be the case, right?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:yeah uh love that guy i really came away loving that guy like i was i was very it's always been said to us oh you guys should have him on he's he's real fun he's a nice guy and he's thoughtful and this and that and just like there was never any like hook for it and uh this finally this show was coming out he got pitched as part of the show we said sure and totally paid off
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I really loved them going over how method they should be.
Marc:I did too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like Mark should learn golf to be a better actor.
Marc:Like I just I just love the idea of like Brad Pitt and George Clooney like we're robbing casinos to prepare for Ocean's.
Guest:11 like well the hacking thing was perfect like that was just like oh well i've been able to get into the pentagon from my house so now uh i think i'm ready to go with this role and then i just love the fact that he that jason abandoned it and was like i'm just gonna like kind of make circles with my hands and it's like yeah that's all you gotta do it's pretending and
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's all make-believe.
Marc:No one knows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just love that.
Guest:We'll get into this a little later on.
Guest:I definitely want to talk about it in relation to the main discussion we're going to have later about acting.
Guest:And it's like, there is this like fine line, right?
Guest:Where it's like, you're so inclined to just be like,
Guest:It's not that hard.
Guest:You just play pretend.
Guest:And then you realize that like, but really to like really sell emotions and nail things that make you believe and make you make the piece of work that you're doing, whether you want to call it art, whether you want to call it entertainment, whatever it is to make it last in the mind and in the soul of the people watching it.
Guest:There's some shit you have to put yourself through sometimes.
Guest:like the best ones are from people who put themselves through shit and i do think that when it comes to somebody like jason it's like well he has put himself through shit like it might not be that he put himself through the life of a hacker but like he's had to deal with like the the troubles of his own insecurities and how he grew up and he said he took roles like that and that's like it starts to go like
Guest:makes sense when it's like mark meets with a director and it's like well what do you want out of me you could hire anybody and the person's like i want the shame like that's what i want and it's like oh yeah well that's that's something mark has had to put himself through and if he's going to access that as an actor it's not like it might be part of who he is but i wouldn't go as far as saying that's easy i wouldn't want to do it i wouldn't want to have to access shame all the time right right to live there is a problem you
Marc:You know, to visit that that island of the mind is one thing, but to like stay there and like, yeah, that's that's rough.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Also, really loved your bonus episode where we got to find out what Mark laughs at and what he finds funny.
Marc:I thought that was very insightful into his his psyche.
Marc:Not not a sitcom guy.
Guest:No, and also not like a guy who is going to... I think it's one of the more interesting things that he's like, The Hangover, I guess that's funny.
Guest:And it's like, to me, I think The Hangover is hilariously funny, just the first one.
Guest:But I always... I've rewatched it a bunch of times, and I'm always like...
Guest:struck by how much I enjoy the structure of it, right?
Guest:That it's like, man, they put this whole thing together and we're able to know that, you know, the jokes would work as long as the plot continued to tick along and all the things made sense and they locked together.
Guest:It's like a puzzle piece, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:the fact that Mark's just like, yeah, that's whatever.
Guest:And he's not like laughing uproariously at it is I think part of, you know, his need for humor has to come from a real, you know, guttural place.
Guest:Like, like we were talking about on that thing.
Guest:It's just things that like surprise him or like, you know, just like,
Guest:totally upend a convention that he's expecting something.
Guest:And then an unexpected thing happens.
Guest:Like, I think that's so key to understanding who he is and why he thinks things are funny the way he does and why as a standup, he's always searching for those moments to happen on stage.
Guest:Like he does not want to go up on stage and do a rehearsed routine.
Guest:He gets nothing out of that.
Guest:He wants spontaneity.
Guest:He wants something crazy to happen during every one of his shows.
Marc:And, you know, I enjoy that he likes Caddyshack for a similar reason that I like Caddyshack.
Marc:I like Ted Knight as well.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I feel like he makes that movie.
Marc:The world needs dish diggers too, son.
Marc:I thought it was funny that he thought that would be like a hot take.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm like, no, Ted Knight's fucking awesome in that movie.
Guest:Like he's, he's arguably is the best part because everyone else is out on their own like plank universe.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They're doing their own thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chevy Chase is out there doing his own thing and
Guest:his own movie so i've always said the downfall i didn't you know want to turn that episode into a discussion on caddyshack with with mark but my thing my big thing about caddyshack and why i think it doesn't work is that everybody always talks about like oh rodney's so great and chevy and bill murray oh the gopher stuff it's so funny bill murray and even ted knight to an extent these are all side plots and supporting characters and
Guest:in support of a main character, the lead, who is extremely boring.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:Isn't the sequel, the sequel is bad.
Marc:I've never seen it.
Marc:You've never seen it?
Marc:I feel like I've watched it a whole bunch of times.
Guest:I just remember it was one of those things at a time when like you just knew, oh, this is shit.
Guest:Like a sequel to something that doesn't have like all the original people and it's just gonna be garbage.
Guest:So yeah, I never watched it.
Guest:Yeah, I'm a big fan of those sequels that are terrible for some reason.
Guest:What a downgrade, though.
Guest:Just on the basis of the cast, they lost Rodney and replaced him with Jackie Mason.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No way!
Guest:You couldn't...
Guest:there's like a sequel is supposed to exist only to like help you make more money on the basis of already having made money with the first one.
Guest:There is no way that that is an, like in any way, an enticement.
Guest:Oh, well, you know, you like this first movie.
Guest:We took the best part out of it and replaced it with dog shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know the shit in the pool?
Marc:That is now in place of Rodney.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I loved Mark's love for the Coen brothers.
Marc:And, you know, Hail Caesar got brought up in the Jason Ritter episode.
Marc:And that's a movie that I watched on the plane.
Marc:And can I tell you, I just burst out hysterically laughing on my plane in the middle of the night for everyone.
Marc:Because...
Marc:Cause there's the scene where the rabbi and the priest are there.
Marc:Oh, that's so great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, Oh, what, what God has a family now?
Marc:Does he have a dog?
Marc:Maybe a collie just, just busted me right up.
Guest:There's so, there's so much in that movie.
Guest:It's so rich.
Guest:And then like,
Guest:it's just a weird thing people get weird about the coen brothers like they have these expectations for what they're supposed to deliver for them and it's like i just what what did people not get about that movie what did people think it was supposed to be or what did they want it to be like the thing that it is is totally perfect like what what is what should be different about that movie
Marc:Yeah, I actually think it is on par with The Big Lebowski for me.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:It is hilarious, uproariously hilarious.
Guest:It's very funny.
Guest:And it has like, you know, their typical things where they are using what they respect in the history of movies and doing their versions of it, their tips of the hat to certain styles and that.
Guest:But it's also like all the best Coen Brothers stuff.
Guest:It's like a philosophy class.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think it's just because they always zig when you think they're going to zag.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And I think audience at large just doesn't like that.
Marc:They want the same thing.
Marc:Oh, look, you delivered No Country for Old Men.
Marc:I want another No Country for Old Men.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It's like, no, here's something completely different and you're going to have so much more fun.
Guest:No, totally.
Guest:And I remember that very specifically about The Big Lebowski when it came out.
Guest:And, you know, it's funny.
Guest:It's like I liked it a lot when I saw it, when it did come out.
Guest:But just like, you know, so many of their movies, I liked it more and more every time I watched it.
Guest:But liking it when it came out was not typical.
Guest:Most people did not like it when it came out.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't see it when it came out.
Marc:I saw it only on home video, like on VHS tape.
Marc:And I remember I went to my girlfriend's college and we watched it there.
Marc:And I didn't understand some of it, but I just dug it.
Marc:It was just –
Guest:I think that's part of it is why it gained such a reputation is that it winds up becoming a vibes movie.
Guest:And it's a it's a great vibes movie for the the rental era where you just like we're like, what's this thing?
Guest:John Goodman, Jeff Bridges.
Guest:OK, we'll rent this.
Guest:And you sit on your couch and it's like you're hanging out and you watch this and you might not fully get it or you might not like care about the plot.
Guest:But the vibes wind up carrying the day.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:Steve Buscemi.
Marc:I mean, just everything is so fucking good.
Marc:Shut the fuck up, Donnie.
Marc:Like, it's all so quotable and just so relatable.
Marc:Like, goddamn white Russians.
Guest:But I did think it was funny that, like, we had this whole conversation about sitcoms and I was like...
Guest:You made a sitcom.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, wait a second.
Marc:We forgot.
Marc:You made an actual sitcom.
Guest:And I do think that that was like, you know, that's a reason that thing ended after four years.
Guest:Because he was just like, yeah, I'm done.
Guest:Like, I don't, I'm not involved in this.
Guest:Like, this is not how my brain works, comedy-wise.
Guest:Like, consistently refilling a thing for seven, eight, nine seasons.
Guest:What did Larry David went for 20 years doing Curb?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Mark was just like, no, I'm done.
Guest:I told the story and I don't want to do this anymore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's fascinating because, and I wonder if he grew up enjoying sitcoms more.
Marc:Didn't seem to be like in part of like Happy Days, Three's Company, like the shows that I sort of like would watch, you know, binge, I would say.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:On like Nick and Knight or, you know, I would tape the fucking Simpsons, you know, and I would binge.
Guest:Yes, but you and I were older by the time that aired.
Guest:And by older, I mean, I think we were like 10, 11, right?
Guest:And I think, like, after talking to him and having talked to other people about this, I really think, and this is kind of just a general philosophy of life that I have, is that most things that kind of make up your personality
Guest:profile of preferences are imprinted at a very young age right yeah and i i started thinking about this like well what would that have been for tv because we watched a shitload of tv in my house like it was one of those things where like the tv was just always on and either like you know my dad was watching a show or like you know they had the news on in the kitchen while my mom was making dinner or something like that
Guest:And, you know, with no cable and three broadcast channels and a couple of local New York channels, you know, you had limited things that were on.
Guest:But there was a lot more programming that was designed to just sit and be consumed, not like stuff in the background.
Guest:Like you sat and watched the shows.
Guest:And a lot of those were like sitcoms in syndication.
Guest:You know, I remember watching a lot of stuff that was...
Guest:you know, had already been on, but was now something I was taking in for the first time.
Guest:Uh, you know, ones you mentioned happy days and that, but also like different strokes or the facts of life, like all of those shows that I think helped kind of for me, I don't say helped.
Guest:It didn't help.
Guest:It just was a thing.
Guest:Like it's a neutral experience that this became like a brain pattern of, uh,
Marc:here's how tv comedy works you know yes and that that was the thing like tv comedy was in a box and you would just plug that in basically like tv dramas were never funny uh they were it was just a drama and it was like you know murder mystery or like whatever like a cop show and like none neither the two would ever cross you
Guest:You needed to you needed to.
Guest:I mean, you could have a joke in, you know, drama shows and you could have characters who were who were amusing.
Guest:But there was no expectation from the audience that what they were turning on in that one hour block was going to be funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you didn't cross the streams.
Marc:Never.
Marc:Never.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like the Brady Bunch or like Different Strokes would have a very special episode like that would be like the exception.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was they had to market it that way.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like you had to let everyone know this thing that you're used to it being this one way.
Guest:It's going to go another way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For this one week, which actually wound up becoming a stunt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You like you do it to get attention like all that show that's the same every week.
Guest:It's going to be different.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, that would be like a sweeps week type of thing.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:Which is a thing.
Marc:I don't even know if that's a thing anymore.
Marc:But yeah, I grew up on Brady Bunch, Three's Company, Happy Days, that sort of stuff.
Marc:MASH was on at like, I want to say 10 or 11, 11 o'clock at night on like my channel 11.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think it was on earlier than that.
Guest:I definitely remember MASH being on in the day.
Guest:And I remember I never really engaged with it that much.
Guest:There would be certain episodes if my ear caught the premise, I'd be like, oh, that sounds funny.
Guest:I'll watch the rest of that.
Guest:But I wasn't like a MASH guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I wasn't, but I watched MASH because I knew Cheers in syndication would be on right after it.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:Syndication was, like, my thing.
Marc:I loved syndicated television.
Marc:It was, for me, where I just, like, stayed.
Marc:I didn't really even know network TV.
Marc:Like, I think only recently I learned that Knight Rider was on at, like, 8 p.m.
Marc:on, like, CBS or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For me, I only watched it in syndication when it was, what do you call it?
Marc:In a block with, what was the helicopter one?
Marc:Airwolf.
Marc:Airwolf, yeah, which was Knight Rider with a helicopter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the A-Team.
Marc:It was like, that was a three-hour block where- Yeah, the A-Team was absolutely a network show.
Guest:It was like the number one show for a couple of years.
Guest:I didn't know.
Marc:On NBC.
Guest:Was that before I was alive?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, no, no, no.
Marc:No, 1984, 85.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was still really young.
Marc:I only knew of it from like the, you know, early 90s.
Guest:But see, I think back to being that young.
Guest:I circled it this week and having this conversation with Mark and I gave it some thought and I'm like, oh, this is absolutely true.
Guest:Is that the thing that imprinted on me at a young age, and it was in syndication by that time, because I think the original run of the show was before I was born, but it was The Muppet Show.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:You know, and it was watching that show every night.
Guest:It was on every night in syndication by that point.
Guest:And that is, I think, my mental template for TV comedy.
Guest:You know, that like...
Guest:It's it has to have multiple levels, right?
Guest:You have to be able to enjoy it as a thing that is commenting on itself as well as just the thing that it is like, you know, you're going to watch The Muppet Show and there might be a, you know, the Harry Belafonte banana boat song.
Guest:sketch and you're like that's great for what it is but then the bigger story of the episode is like whatever is going on in the back with kermit and they're trying to figure something out and you could have those mental levels going on i'm enjoying this musical number but then i'm also enjoying the plot of this episode and like to have that built when i was three four you know and and really remember that shit like i remember the episodes of the muppet show so like
Guest:I could definitely draw a line from that to then any other thing I kind of picked up along the way.
Guest:And it all kind of makes sense when you like Simpsons definitely comes from that Larry Sanders show comes from that 30 rock comes from that.
Guest:They're all of the Muppet show DNA.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And for me, I would say like shows like Seinfeld, Friends, like I watch those shows and like, you know, would watch those on syndication.
Marc:I would tape them like all like, you know, I would have a Seinfeld tape that I would just fill up with six hours of Seinfeld episodes that without commercials that I can just put into my VCR and just, you know, watch it before going to bed and then fall asleep to listen, you know, watching it and listening to it.
Guest:Yeah, I always liked doing that, too.
Guest:I liked listening to things that I had watched where I liked the jokes, you know?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like, I wanted to hear the way it was constructed.
Guest:There have been a lot of guests on the show that talked about taping on little cassette tapes, taping Saturday Night Live, and then listening to it, like, on the school bus.
Guest:And multiple people have said they did that.
Guest:And Mark always reacts like that.
Guest:Like, whoa, really?
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I'm like, oh yeah, I remember doing that.
Guest:Like very, very, very specifically, like Saturday Night Live, that I was like, I want to hear this again, like on Monday morning when I'm going to school.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:See, I would wake up at six o'clock just to turn my stereo on and hit record for the Howard Stern show.
Marc:That for me, because like I would not be able to listen to it, you know,
Marc:You know, it's way too early for me to be up, but I would have an hour's worth of Howard Stern on cassette that I can listen to on the way to school.
Guest:Well, all this stuff that's been, you know, kind of imprinted in us as we were talking about this, you know, it made me realize that you can set up these templates for comedy.
Guest:But as you were saying...
Guest:At that time, TV dramas were like this totally separate thing.
Guest:Like they didn't intermingle, right?
Guest:And so I think like a lot of where I got my, you know, brain around traditional dramatic story and narrative was either the books I was reading or movies I was seeing.
Guest:I don't think I was...
Guest:you know, attuned to television drama in any real way until 1999.
Guest:Can you think of any one hour television drama that you watched prior to The Sopranos?
Marc:Not one.
Marc:Like I know Miami Vice was a thing that was long gone.
Marc:LA Law, like Law and Order, like it was not part of any of those conversations.
Marc:Like when they were coming on, I was tuning out.
Marc:That's right, same.
Guest:I think the closest thing I could say, and it barely counts, but is Star Trek and Star Trek The Next Generation.
Guest:Barely counts.
Guest:That's sci-fi, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's like you're watching, it's almost like a comic book.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You're like, oh, what's next today in my adventure story, right?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I would watch Lois and Clark, the Superman show, but I wouldn't consider that a drama, you know?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, so it really wasn't for me until The Sopranos.
Guest:And I don't think that's rare, right?
Guest:Like, especially for people our age.
Guest:But I think for people older than us, it's an even more important, like, dividing point.
Guest:Because, like, so many people who were invested in...
Guest:the Sopranos who became the audience for the Sopranos.
Guest:And then really every television drama that came after the Sopranos, cause they all borrow the template of the Sopranos now.
Guest:And, uh, I think that, you know, those people who were watching, who were like already people who had watched hour long dramas, they're the people who the HBO executives are talking about when you see the interviews and they're like, you can't do that.
Guest:The audience will revolt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And,
Guest:Because they're keeping those people in mind, right?
Guest:These people who had been for the last 40 years only watching a very specific kind of structured one hour drama.
Guest:And this being the first time it was ever done outside of the confines of network TV.
Guest:I mean, I guess Oz comes before this, but that's like even way more experimental than The Sopranos.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I just think like...
Guest:You can obviously pick out other shows that had, you know, starting points of a different way of telling a dramatic episodic story.
Guest:Homicide Life on the Street obviously is one of them.
Guest:And Sopranos probably owes a debt of gratitude to that.
Guest:Definitely The Wire clearly owes a debt to Homicide.
Guest:And there's other shows, sure.
Guest:But because of this conversation, because of what Mark was talking about, about like the imprinting of his...
Guest:of tv and what he got used to and what he didn't get used to you know i was thinking heavily about the sopranos especially because the sopranos is so funny like you know going back to what you were saying like that thing didn't used to exist the mingling of those things and and there's a point where david chase has said i
Guest:I actually can't tell you whether it was a comedy or a drama.
Guest:I'm not sure to this day whether we made a comedy or a drama.
Guest:And it's like, obviously, I think it's a drama.
Guest:It's a dramatic show with very funny moments.
Guest:But like, I understand why he says that.
Guest:And that's a big deal.
Guest:That's a big deal that the show, you know, made that adjustment for television and just filmed, you know, storytelling in general.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, there's this documentary that you asked me to watch.
Marc:And in the documentary, David Chase is saying, like, well, you know, there's some people that wanted this serial drama.
Marc:But there was this other group of people who are watching the show that are like, hey, enough yakking, more whacking.
Marc:right they want they wanted more murders and look make make no mistake i was in the latter part of that and i had to be trained to watch a serial drama like i am i am look i i admit i was watching uh the sopranos like i was watching you know goodfellas and i i would say that's probably the best correlation is that goodfellas was this crime movie uh but it was funny right it was and you know at least i thought it was funny we recently
Guest:Impulsive and, you know, made you feel like you were in this crew and you were living their life.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And it was funny.
Marc:And, you know, I'm happy to know that it was funny.
Marc:You know, people are laughing at lines when we saw it in the movie theater recently.
Marc:But, yeah, this show, The Sopranos, took the essence of Goodfellas and just injected it into this weekly television series.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, this documentary just premiered on HBO and you can watch it on Max.
Guest:It is called Wise Guy, David Chase and the Sopranos.
Guest:And I would highly recommend it's only two parts and each part is about an hour, 15 minutes.
Guest:So it's just like watching like a two and a half hour movie.
Guest:And it flies by.
Guest:It's totally manageable.
Guest:You know, we have talked about The Sopranos a lot on here.
Guest:Mark and I have talked a lot about it.
Guest:We have actually had a lot of Sopranos people on the show, I realized, while I was watching this.
Guest:David Chase himself was on episode 1263, if you want to go back and listen to that.
Guest:And the director of this documentary...
Guest:who is in the documentary interviewing Chase, Alex Gibney, he was on episode 1081.
Guest:So if you want to even just kind of use this doc as a little listening guide, you can go back and listen to Chase, who does tell a lot of the same stuff in this documentary that he talked about with Mark.
Guest:And Alex Gibney, you can listen to his episode.
Guest:We also had Edie Falco on episode 829.
Guest:Right.
Guest:uh michael imperioli has been on twice episodes uh 589 and episodes 903 uh joey pants joe pantoliano he was episode 1131 uh steven van zant episode 873 and steve buscemi episode 1260 um so yeah there's a little sopranos playlist for you of wtf episodes
Marc:And there's also, you know, and I'll just say, I think James Gandolfini would have been a fantastic WTF guest.
Marc:Such a regret.
Marc:Yeah, clearly.
Marc:I mean, like, clearly.
Marc:I mean, for, of course, his work, but just as a person and going through, you know, his demons, he would have been the perfect, like, that's a dream WTF guest for me.
Marc:But there is there is this I actually didn't get to listen to it.
Marc:I just Googled James Gandolfini in WTF.
Marc:And there is a story that Mark revisits this story from episode 250 of WTF with comedian Frank Santorelli.
Marc:And I haven't listened to it.
Marc:So I can't wait.
Guest:You're saying that that's up there on the podcast.
Guest:I'm not sure that it's part of the feed currently.
Guest:It might have to go up in our rarities because I think that was a little bonus thing.
Guest:I mean, you can obviously go into the episode 250, which was a live show in Boston, I believe.
Guest:And yeah, Frank Santorelli tells that story.
Guest:Frank Santorelli is the guy who played the bartender at the Bada Bing.
Guest:So he's the guy who's always getting his ass kicked.
Guest:By Tony.
Guest:And he yeah, he tells a story about accidentally giving Jim a real shot of vodka when it was supposed to be water.
Guest:And yeah, the resulting consequences of that.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's that's the only thing I remember when James Galifini died.
Guest:Mark was like, I just want to talk about this guy.
Guest:Like, you know, we had kind of in in as we've talked about before, part of our routine when a guest who'd been on died and we wanted to make sure we weren't like keeping their episode paywalled.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:is we would re-release it and Mark would put a little eulogy to that person up on in the front and uh James Gandolfini died and we were like so bummed out but we were like yeah we never had this guy on the show but Mark was like I still want to talk about him like I think he had just done an episode that day and so he was like I don't want to hold this for three days until the next episode I want to talk about James Gandolfini so he just
Guest:talked about him and then played that little story.
Guest:That was like our excuse for putting it up there.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm going to listen to that on episode 250 to find that story.
Marc:But this documentary is...
Marc:Great.
Marc:If for one reason only, and it brings back my feelings about The Sopranos and how it sort of was like the building blocks for me to watch a serious drama and in the storylines.
Marc:How did you feel watching this doc?
Guest:Oh, well, I mean, like I've been waiting to like actualize this feeling since I can't remember what it was.
Guest:We went to see something at the local movie theater here at Nighthawk.
Guest:And because it's it's 2024 and it's 25 years past things that came out in 1999.
Guest:The pre-show at the theater was showing a lot of stuff from 1999.
Guest:And they showed the opening scene of the pilot episode in the movie theater.
Guest:They showed the scene where Tony goes into Dr. Melfi's office and they meet for the first time.
Guest:And we sat there...
Guest:just loving this for like 10 minutes or however long they were showing this clip and i remember saying to you like some theater should just show this every sunday night yeah you know like hey are you having a hard time filling up like one of your screens on sunday nights show two episodes of the sopranos every week like for for four years or however long it's going to take and i
Guest:like I just started thinking about like what a gift this show was and how rich it was and how, how it changed, you know, not just what you're saying about the engagement with TV, episodic TV drama.
Guest:But for me, it was a change in like almost, this is going to sound weird, but like respecting TV.
Yeah.
Guest:Like, it made me, like, start to mentally treat television as, like, something that should be paid attention to.
Guest:That, like, respect must be paid to this medium and, like...
Guest:obviously it's the right move to do.
Guest:And in, in this documentary, after, you know, uh, an opening sequence, they play the theme song and, you know, do the credits of this documentary to the Sopranos theme song with David Chase in the car, you know, in the same route that inside side car.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's in the passenger seat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:It made me remember, like, when you heard this on a Sunday night, it was like, it was joy.
Guest:Like, it was so joyful that this was going to be your experience for the next hour.
Guest:And you looked forward to it.
Guest:Like, man, we are going to get...
Guest:greatness every sunday night like i just that feeling was fantastic and to revisit just even just that feeling aside from some other things in the doc that i wanted to talk about but like that was a great feeling yeah yeah the
Marc:The theme song is still hits to this day, especially with the opening.
Marc:And I remember after 9-11, they had to remove the Twin Towers from the rear view and everything.
Marc:But yeah, I just love that theme song.
Marc:And you're right.
Marc:It was like you're now entering this quality time with your television.
Marc:And you're going to be told this fascinating story, this complex story with this...
Guest:not good guy and his two families so this documentary is great if you know anything about the sopranos i will supplement those things you may you know already kind of know the trajectory of the story like i said if you listen to these wtf episodes you're gonna hear a lot of this stuff again but i will say and i you know it's maybe about 10 minutes of this doc i could have watched a whole hour of
Guest:Of just the casting videos, the auditions.
Marc:They did me dirty with that because they're showing you all these people, you know, casting or auditioning to be Tony Soprano.
Marc:They didn't show James Gandolfini's audition.
Marc:I wanted to see that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's interesting that you mentioned that because they just talk about it.
Guest:They talk about it in detail, but they don't show it to you.
Guest:I wonder what the decision was for that.
Marc:Also, was that Colin Farrell that was auditioning?
Marc:Like, was that Stephen Baldwin that was also auditioning?
Marc:Like, it was crazy.
Marc:It was like kind of a, I can't believe Stevie Van Zandt was this close to being Tony Soprano.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the funny thing.
Guest:I'd always known that I'd already always known that that was the lore, but obviously I'd never seen him do it.
Guest:And he's clearly good.
Guest:Like it was one of those things where I'm not sure he would have been right for the part, but clearly they made the right call to put him in another part.
Guest:Like, yes.
Guest:This guy sitting there doing that, you're like, oh, this works, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, Dr. Melfi was going to be cast as Carmela.
Marc:And also, she was right.
Guest:A mistake.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And like, no, I've played this part before.
Marc:Like, give me something else.
Marc:And, you know, Carmela is obviously, A.D.
Marc:Falco is obviously perfect for that part.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had, I, so what was your experience with the show?
Guest:Because I came to it, you know, I watched the pilot and did not love it and did not go back to it until, you know, a couple of months in, I think it was maybe at like the seventh or eighth episode of the season.
Guest:And a friend of mine was like, we get, no, no, no, you should be watching this.
Guest:And we watched it together, like at his apartment and
Guest:And and I was like, oh, this is good.
Guest:I got to give it another chance.
Guest:And I went back and watched he had on VHS.
Guest:He had been taping them.
Guest:So I went back and watched the earlier episodes and and and caught up.
Guest:But initially, I did not love the show from the pilot, which is interesting because.
Guest:They talk about, you know, in the making of it, people are like, it was weird as a pilot.
Guest:It's not a kind of, I think it's Stephen Van Zandt.
Guest:It's like, this is not a typical show.
Guest:Like the way it starts, you know, this thing about the ducks.
Guest:He's like, it really did make you question why you were watching it.
Marc:for me i mean look the mafia stuff just plays in my household growing up like my brother was three years older uh we had mafia guys across the street from us and goodfellas was on rotation in my house so it was just a thing that was happening and sopranos came out i remember taping it each week uh and we would just have a tape full of sopranos episodes that we can uh we can keep on going back to so i
Marc:I was on board right from the beginning.
Marc:And also, I hate to say it, but a lot of the characteristics of James Gandolfini were evident in my household as well.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think I think that's definitely the case with like, you know, you're not when I say you, I mean, anyone's relationship to the show is stronger if you're identifying people.
Guest:the people or traits or personalities in it within your own life, which I thought was interesting that so many of the writers, like it seemed like they had to have this like connection.
Guest:Like, did they have shitty moms?
Guest:Great.
Guest:You could write for this.
Guest:Did you have some kind of connection to like weird street life, like possibly criminal or otherwise?
Guest:Right.
Guest:New Jersey was like a big imperative.
Guest:Like if they had like Jersey within them and, and that's part of the secret sauce of making the show work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like, for me, I was like, oh yeah, like I have holes in my wall from my dad, like, you know, punching the wall and like, you know, and just like, just like was something that was part of my life.
Marc:And there it is on screen and like his temper tantrums and like, you know...
Marc:So on and so on.
Marc:So it was just very relatable for me, unfortunately.
Marc:Not the mafioso stuff, not the killing of stuff, but yeah, that stuff in particular, and that just hooked me.
Marc:And, of course, the characters and the world and, you know, everything was just so... Can I just say, Michael Imperioli?
Marc:I think, you know, he's in this doc, and he's just talking, and I just...
Marc:I just realized I love that guy.
Marc:Like, I love that actor.
Marc:And I will see him in anything.
Marc:Like, I watched the White Lotus that he was in.
Marc:Fantastic.
Marc:I saw him on Broadway.
Marc:Fantastic.
Marc:Like, I just love that man.
Marc:So, yeah, I'm a big fan of his.
Guest:Also, the doc pointed out a couple of things that I didn't know.
Guest:I did not know that he intended to kill...
Guest:Tony's mom off at the end of the first season.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's crazy because, you know, the show definitely takes a hit when she, when the actress Nancy Marchand, when she died for real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, they had a storyline developing with her.
Guest:And then, you know, when the third season started up, they had to write it out because she had died.
Guest:And it turns out he was going to kill her off at the end of the first season and kept her around because she was sick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said to him, you know, David, just keep me working.
Guest:It'll be, you know, what helps me if I keep working.
Guest:And he kept her in the show.
Guest:That's pretty remarkable.
Guest:I had no idea about that.
Marc:I actually thought it was the opposite.
Marc:I thought her death sort of put up.
Marc:Screwed everything up.
Marc:Screwed everything up from that point forward.
Marc:But no, like that was so revealing to me.
Marc:I really found that great.
Guest:I also loved seeing that when they were showing the final scene, they were cutting between things that had happened in the, like that foreshadowed it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they show a scene from the pilot where he's at dinner with Carmela and, you know, he talks about life is good sometimes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so then you go back to the final scene where he's kind of saying that, Hey, remember to enjoy the good times or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That first pilot scene.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:looks like sex in the city.
Guest:Like it could be indistinguishable from anything that was like visually on TV at that time.
Guest:And then they cut to that final scene and it looks like the greatest movie that you could be possibly watching all the colors and the way.
Guest:And it's the same DP.
Guest:He talks about that.
Guest:He says, I got the same guy to shoot the first scene from the last, the growth in just the filmmaking of this show between the first episode and the last is outstanding.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And look, you're talking to a guy who I've read a 20,000 word essay on that last scene and how they, I've been to that diner.
Marc:Oh, of course, me too.
Marc:Yeah, I love that place.
Marc:They don't have it anymore, right?
Marc:The booth is gone, I think.
Marc:Yeah, they auctioned it off and everything.
Marc:But yeah, you know, the soul still remains.
Marc:But it's crazy.
Marc:Like, they changed the layout of the entire diner.
Marc:Like, they put up these murals.
Marc:Right, the panels.
Marc:And stuff.
Marc:And, like, it's all really different.
Marc:But watching that last scene, just in the documentary, I was like, oh, my God, I'm on the edge of my seat.
Marc:I love this scene so much.
Marc:There's the members-only jacket.
Marc:And, like, I love that they walk through all the things that are tying it to past seasons.
Marc:And I'll be honest with you, I missed some of them.
Marc:I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot about this and that.
Marc:And, like, I just thought that was great.
Marc:And, like, the fact that I know David Chase was, like, brilliant.
Marc:Famously, I'm not talking about Sopranos.
Marc:This is not something that I'm going to explain the ending or anything.
Marc:It was great to have him sit down in the Dr. Melfi set and just talk about the show and his life and his mom.
Marc:It was really, really a fascinating documentary.
Guest:One thing that I thought coming out of this documentary though, was something else I would watch is a longer version.
Guest:I'd watch a whole documentary about James Gandolfini.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they do, they do devote like the basically last half hour of this to him and to his death.
Guest:And the one thing that I, there's just incontrovertible to me.
Guest:And I, you know, I don't care how this sounds.
Guest:This role absolutely killed the guy.
Guest:And I don't know that that's, there's no moral judgment put on that.
Guest:It really got me thinking about the idea that a true artist does suffer.
Guest:And, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about when, you know, discussing the Jason Ritter episode.
Guest:It's like, what you put into this can hurt you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:for everyone to come away from the Sopranos with the memories they have of it and how, you know, Tony Soprano became this character truly larger than life.
Guest:It's like, it is because this guy suffered to put it on the screen.
Guest:And,
Guest:And, you know, that wouldn't have happened with just any other actor who was delivering what they needed to deliver for the role.
Guest:He put himself in bad places to get the performance that he got and make it real and make it believable.
Guest:And I'm just sitting there thinking, like, this is what...
Guest:athletes do they hurt their bodies and they you know get they shorten their careers and their lives sometimes to do excellent work and make fans happy this is what like artists have done throughout life trying to struggle to make the perfect painting or make the perfect poem and it drives them to madness like
Guest:This happens.
Guest:This is why, to me, like, respect must be paid.
Guest:Like, again, I am not putting a moral judgment on it.
Guest:I am saying I do think you cannot watch this without realizing this did damage to this guy and probably resulted in his death.
Guest:And also know, like...
Guest:He gave himself to it.
Guest:He did not do it under duress.
Guest:He chose like this.
Guest:I am going to give this performance in this way.
Guest:And, you know, David Chase makes that point that like he has a line in the script that says Tony closes the refrigerator angrily and James like destroyed the refrigerator and then got it like was like, oh, this show does such terrible things to me.
Guest:And David Chase had to point out to him like, I just wrote.
Guest:he closes the refrigerator angrily.
Guest:You're the one who went insane, you know?
Guest:Uh, and, and it did make me realize like I had two encounters with James Gandolfini in my life.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Tell me that.
Guest:Well, like the one was a very kind of typical one that happens in New York all the time where I was just walking down the street and I noticed people around me, uh,
Guest:having a hubbub and I looked to my right and I was walking right next to James Gandolfini and I watched like the seas part.
Guest:Like it was like, you know, the, the Pope was coming through.
Guest:There were cops stopping and like, Hey, Tony, you know?
Guest:And like, he just waved, was nice to everybody.
Guest:Like wave.
Guest:He never stopped.
Guest:He just walking, walking.
Guest:Then he hailed a taxi and got in.
Guest:And,
Guest:And then this was around maybe like 2011 or so, 2012.
Guest:I'm getting ready for work.
Guest:And Dawn looks out the window of our apartment.
Guest:We're on the second floor of a little townhouse.
Guest:And she goes, why is James Gandolfini sitting on our steps?
Guest:What?
Guest:And...
Guest:I look out and there he was.
Guest:He's sitting there.
Guest:He was making... There's a movie called The Drop with him and Tom Hardy.
Guest:And they made it in our neighborhood.
Guest:And there's a deli right next to that house that I lived in.
Guest:And he had just gone to the deli, got a soda or something and whatnot.
Guest:And he's sitting on our stoop drinking it.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:And I remembered thinking back to that moment when we were walking down the street and all these people just recognized him and were like...
Guest:They weren't swarming, but like it was like a spotlight just went on this guy all of a sudden.
Guest:And he's in front of my house.
Guest:This is a quiet street in a residential Brooklyn neighborhood.
Guest:I could have gone downstairs.
Guest:I could have said anything to him.
Guest:I could have just pretended I was leaving the house and like, oh, hello there and waved to him or whatever.
Guest:I could have gone down and been like, hey, hey, could you sign this?
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:And all I thought about was that day of this guy like trying to just make his way through the world and everyone noticed him.
Guest:And I was like, I'm not going down there.
Guest:I'm not saying a word.
Guest:Like, let this man drink his soda on the stoop and let him be like a person.
Guest:And watching this documentary, like, I was very glad I made that choice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I... If it made...
Guest:If it made it so that I gave him a free moment that day where he could just take a breather, I feel like I returned a favor in some ways.
Marc:A small favor for all the enjoyment and entertainment he's given you.
Marc:And the mask that James was wearing, man, it's really...
Marc:It's indescribable.
Marc:I can't imagine what that had to feel like to go through that experience of acting and just having to bring up those sort of emotions.
Marc:It's fascinating.
Marc:And that's a great story.
Marc:I can't believe you had two interactions with James Gandolfini.
Marc:Or non-interactions, but yes, encounters.
Marc:Yes, encounters.
Guest:Well, yeah, I really would recommend you check that out.
Guest:If you love The Sopranos, you absolutely have to check it out.
Guest:But if you're just kind of interested in what we've been talking about here, the evolution of television, I think it's a great thing to watch.
Guest:I think it's a great time to go back to and remember like what it was like before this show.
Guest:So check that out on Max right now.
Guest:It's called Wise Guy, David Chase and The Sopranos.
Guest:And if you have any reactions to it, click on the link in the episode description, send us a comment, send us whatever you want.
Guest:And next week,
Guest:we will be doing movie number eight in the Quentin Tarantino series, which is The Hateful Eight.
Guest:And we are watching the theatrical version of that, not the Netflix extended edition, if you're interested.
Guest:And so until then, I am Brendan, and that's Chris.
Guest:Peace.
Peace.