BONUS Why We're Stopping
Marc:Okay, dude.
Marc:So we're going to talk about the big plan?
Marc:The upcoming end of the show.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Finally.
Marc:I mean, that's sad.
Guest:But now that's interesting.
Guest:So I do want to make sure people know we're not saying, thank God the show's ending.
Marc:No, of course not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like there's an arc to these things and the media landscape is changing.
Marc:We're kind of fried because we're one of the few shows anywhere that has done a new show every Monday and Thursday.
Marc:The workload has been pretty big and we have not really had any sort of break.
Marc:We've interviewed almost everybody that is in our orbit and we're exhausted.
Marc:But also there just comes to a point where, you know,
Marc:You don't have to keep everything going forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and then I was thinking about it like when we talked maybe a month ago.
Guest:Let us both think about where we want things to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and where we want things in our lives and what we want to have happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I think two big things that stood out to me were, you know, obviously what you said is true, that it's like it's been a long time.
Guest:We haven't really ever given ourselves a break.
Guest:And there's, you know, a kind of glut of the type of thing that we do out there now.
Guest:The bigger thing to me is that, like, I started to get this concern about the legacy of the show.
Guest:Not that we were going to have lesser...
Guest:quality of the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But just there becomes a point where quantity kind of overwhelms quality.
Guest:That when you just, when you keep going and you keep going and you keep going, people then just start to remember one or two things.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they're like, oh yeah, that show, it had Obama on that time.
Marc:Or they come in and out.
Marc:I mean, I think there's a core group of listeners that are regular listeners that twice a week, they kind of rely on us to get them to work and they look forward to the show and whatever's going on.
Marc:And then there's people that dip in and out.
Marc:And then there's people that have it on their phone, but they've kind of moved away from it and they dip back in and go, oh yeah.
Marc:And then there's people that have never been here before.
Marc:But the bottom line is, is that certainly in the media environment, a deep catalog doesn't necessarily...
Marc:mean anything to anybody.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, I get what you're saying, that the quantity overwhelms not the quality, but the engagement with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's really about the relationship we have with regular listeners and also when we bring something special to the table.
Marc:But ultimately...
Marc:You know, who's going to go back and listen to everything?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't really know how people are or what they're thinking.
Guest:I think that's a very small percentage of people.
Marc:Yeah, I'm kind of a nerd like that.
Marc:If I get into something, I don't want to.
Marc:But there's a lot to catch up on.
Marc:That's a lot.
Marc:But that doesn't diminish the show currently, but it also... It's not diminishing returns, but you get to a point where it's like, what else can we do?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And I think a lot of that is also because of the thing we've chosen to do, which is audio only.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that appears to be a thing that is not...
Guest:um in the forefront of media consumption anymore right people kind of demand a video option with what they're doing and so we float along as this kind of legacy thing yeah and i just feel like unless we put a marker in it and say this is it and it existed from this time to this time and this was the body of work yeah it'll just you know slowly fade into the background of the media landscape yeah
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's also this is we are audio guys.
Marc:I mean, you know, there's a lot of people listen to audio from video.
Marc:I think a lot of people are taking in their audio just by going to YouTube and not necessarily watching, but listening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, that's an option.
Marc:But there is a craft and a intimacy and a uniqueness to the audio experience.
Marc:And, you know, that's what we've always done.
Marc:But also, there's no shame or loss in saying, you know, we've done enough.
Marc:There's no reason to jump the shark here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like both of us are tired.
Marc:I'm old and tired in a way.
Marc:And we've done great work.
Marc:There's no reason to just plug along to the point where we're talking to people we don't want to talk to or where, you know, I'm getting, you know, audibly tired.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, I did think we addressed that on the show, you know, maybe two years ago now, almost two years ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When we were like, why are we doing interviews that we don't want to do?
Guest:We just started having more people on that.
Guest:It was just like we need to fill them.
Guest:Yeah, but it was just like, okay, go get some comics that you like talking to.
Guest:Get them back in here.
Guest:That's going to be much better than somebody who doesn't care to be here.
Marc:Well, it's interesting because we really for years had a policy of not repeating guests because we did these career arc life-spanning interviews.
Marc:And then there became people that's 10 years down the line and they're in a totally different position in their life.
Marc:And we've done some of those interviews.
Marc:You know, most of these shows that people listen to have regular guests, have people that come over and over again.
Marc:But that was never the idea of our show.
Guest:No.
Guest:And in fact, I just saw somebody the other day and they said to me, like, how's everything going with Mark?
Guest:This is somebody who worked for The Hollywood Reporter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was like...
Guest:So how's Mark, you know, how's the podcast going now that everyone out there is doing the show that you guys invented?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, well, we didn't invent the talk show.
Guest:And he was like, no, but you invented the way to deliver it like this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like people weren't doing it like this.
Marc:Long form.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And with an expectation that like you're going to reveal something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:About the person like he's like, oh, no, it's absolutely a straight line from from your show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's plenty of guys that kind of, you know, do that in their own version.
Marc:And, you know, I can't get obsessed with that.
Marc:I mean, I've always been somewhat I don't know if it's competitive, but, you know, you want to sort of own your space.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then after a certain point by telling ourselves, like, well, we didn't invent the interview, but we did invent a zone.
Marc:of intimacy that was at the core of what we did and ultimately influenced podcasting in general.
Guest:Yeah, I 100% agree.
Guest:I do think part of my reaction to saying like, hey, let's, you know, let's wind this up is that
Guest:When you do that and then you continue to do it with a certain level of quality and that when there are other things out there also doing it and maybe like for me personally, I don't find necessarily hit that same level of quality or if they do, it's in a totally different environment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the guy who does that show, Hot Ones, is very good.
Guest:Sean, is that his name?
Guest:And he's figured out a way to do it and get something out of people.
Guest:And it's funny watching them eat the hot wings and that.
Guest:But it's like, that's not what we do.
Guest:This environment, even people listening to just this, is completely different.
Guest:than watching someone eat wings, and they might answer interesting questions while they're doing it.
Guest:But that's totally different.
Guest:And so I'm like, I don't want us to just be lumped in with the vast array of things.
Marc:That's the other thing, is that everybody has become, you know, podcasting, having a podcast is a punchline now.
Marc:And also, all the people, the celebrities, whatever, they kind of make the rounds, they know the score.
Marc:And the uniqueness of it...
Marc:has been kind of demolished by the quantity of people.
Marc:And so many of these, you know, A-list celebrities who are doing a cash grab with a podcast, you know, they're friends with these people and they have these conversations.
Marc:So I think that whatever was unique in the first decade of this has, you know, the
Marc:We still do it exactly the same way we do it.
Marc:And I think that kind of normalized this type of show.
Marc:But now even people that don't do it as well, you know, it's just another option.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, the other thing about doing it the way we want to do it is I'm starting to notice just on the basis of the marketplace.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That if we wanted to continue to have a viable show, like not one that we do for free or we do, you know, at a total like a complete discount.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:then we're not going to, in the future, be able to do it the way we want to do it.
Guest:Because the demands are on having a video component.
Guest:We don't want that.
Guest:The demands are on much more ad volume within your show.
Guest:We don't want to do that.
Guest:The demands are on inserted ads as opposed to ads that you do where you can read them and get behind the product and not feel like you're just totally surrendering the show to ad spots.
Guest:So, like, to me, it's like if you've got to say yes to,
Guest:even one of those things, let alone all three, that's a compromise I'm not willing to go down.
Marc:Yeah, then we're not working for ourselves.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Jeez, I can remember back in the day where I'm like, you know, why are we even doing ads?
Marc:No ads at all.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:You know, that's against the idea of this DIY revolution.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, the interesting thing was back then there was no business, right?
Guest:And so, but it's like, you know, again, not to like, you know,
Guest:toot our own horn although if you don't toot your own horn who even knows the tune who's gonna toot it but but it's like the the uh the the first time we did a one-year deal with stamps.com like i think that changed a lot for people doing podcast ads sure in general yeah and uh you know the people at who sold stamps.com have told me that you know that that they were like this was a this was a game changer deal for podcasts yeah and
Guest:And for better or worse, like I'm happy to take the brunt end of that as well to be like, oh, you guys started it.
Guest:It's like, well, yes, but it's like that was to get it into the realm of it being a business.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And not just being a thing you did for yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you maybe made a little money from donations or subscriptions or something.
Guest:So like turning it into a business was an important part of the trajectory, not just for us, of the whole industry.
Guest:It was going to become a business somehow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But we were at the beginning of it.
Marc:No one knew quite how.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, it's threatening to terrestrial radio, which is now out of the game completely.
Marc:And now, you know, that technology is enabled people to create their own, you know, studio infrastructure fairly easily.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, TV's almost out of the game.
Guest:And that's what these are becoming.
Guest:These are becoming the TV replacement.
Guest:Whereas when we started the idea of podcasts to disrupt radio, that was the premise.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now these are disrupting people's viewing patterns.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And YouTube is by far the most used streaming service.
Guest:Like if you count it as a streamer-
Guest:the same way Netflix or Max or Peacock or anything, the ranking is YouTube, large gap, Netflix, large gap, everything else.
Guest:So it's like, that is, it makes sense that the people who are doing things now, the way like we were doing, like when we started this in 2009 and in 2010, you'd have, you'd see other comics probably with the mentality of like, I should do that thing that Marin's doing.
Guest:Right, sure.
Guest:If he can do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think that was a true thing.
Guest:Like a lot of people were like, that's fun.
Guest:I'll just have comics over and that.
Guest:I think now it makes sense that people are doing that with the mentality of like, oh, like, you know, do that thing.
Guest:Do like what Rogan does in have a studio where you just film all this stuff, you know, or whatever Twitch streamer there is or anything like that.
Guest:And that's why, you know, a lot of comics who are doing that now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They might say, I have a podcast, but really what they've done is created television shows.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:And also, it seems like, you know, if you set up enough of those cameras, you can edit easily.
Marc:Not unlike radio.
Marc:Yes, right.
Marc:You know, not in exactly the way you do it.
Guest:Well, but I notice a lot of people are doing it live in real time, too.
Guest:Like, they have a guy on a switcher, and they just, you know, run it that way.
Guest:It's pretty dynamic.
Guest:I mean, you can, look, it's not my preferred thing to watch, but it's not totally static.
Marc:Yeah, I remember when Stern tried it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, it's sort of that model.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The E show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but the bottom line is, is that, you know, we're not making this decision, you know, hastily in any way.
Marc:I mean, we've done an amazing thing.
Marc:And both of us, when we started, had we didn't know what we were.
Marc:Really getting into we were doing it to do something new and to have control of it.
Marc:It took you years before you sort of let go of your other jobs.
Marc:You know, I was scraping by and somehow or another, we came up with all the other with the business itself.
Marc:It kind of grew around us and then somehow or another became malignant.
Marc:And it didn't outgrow us, but we kind of hold our little space.
Marc:But, you know, it's almost like, you know, we did what we came to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, frankly, I mean, I thought, you know, we'd maybe get like five years out of it.
Guest:when we started.
Guest:I remember thinking, like, if he could get this to, like, 500 episodes, that'd be crazy.
Guest:And when we got to 500, I was like, I guess we're just going to keep going.
Guest:And, like, there was not even a semblance of a conversation.
Guest:And it was a very successful-feeling enterprise by that point.
Guest:And then we only got...
Guest:more success after 500.
Guest:Within the years after that, there were big deals for us, not just Obama, but a lot of guests and a lot of reception around the show.
Guest:That was our first big partnership deal we got in 2015.
Guest:And so there was absolutely no reason to end it.
Guest:And when we got to episode 1000, it was the same mentality.
Guest:It's like, well, it's still going very strong.
Guest:So why
Guest:And I do think that, I don't know that it's because of COVID, but in the years since, so, you know, 2021 onward, there has been a real shift in the business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just don't think it makes any sense to pretend like that shift doesn't exist and to also pretend like we have to adapt to it, that we have to be what the marketplace is asking for when it comes to these shows.
Marc:We've talked about it a lot around, you know, certainly video content that the people that have to stay on top of that, they're, you know, every waking minute they're working.
Marc:They're putting something out there.
Marc:It's not how I'm built.
Marc:No.
Marc:And it's not how we work.
Marc:And whether or not people appreciate how we work, because the way you edit and the way you produce a show, the way I conduct an interview is a very specific thing.
Marc:And I don't think it's gone underappreciated, but I think that the amount of blather and garbage out there has diminished appreciation for it.
Marc:Well, sure.
Guest:Even this thing that people are listening to now, like the idea when we signed up with Acast and that a component of it was to do a subscription service.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I'm still producing this like I produced the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like these are kind of like episodic.
Guest:Some of these are themed.
Guest:I make sure we're like building them out a couple weeks in advance.
Guest:You know, I built out this Friday show with Chris.
Guest:And it's like I work on it parallel to doing the show and it's its own type of show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some people can't understand that when I talk to them about it.
Guest:They're like, no, but it's bonus.
Guest:Just you put a microphone on, just record anything.
Guest:That's what people think.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And to me, I can't do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's garbage to do that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But a lot of people just don't discern.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, there is a sort of skill to this.
Marc:And even talking about...
Marc:You know, when I enter an interview, it's very important that, you know, I engage whatever it is that I do fully.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And sort of ride things out in a way that creates this intimate experience, but also, you know, a curiosity, overcoming obstacles.
Marc:All these things, you know, are...
Marc:enter into how I approach it.
Marc:And that is whatever this craft that I've built, you know, entails.
Marc:There's nothing, you know, and I've been on plenty of podcasts where you just sit around and talk.
Marc:I can do that.
Marc:But even when I'm doing that, I'm like, oh my God.
Marc:I'm just blathering on what you want to talk about, you know, where was the most embarrassing place you farted.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, for 20 minutes.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I mean, I can do that.
Guest:Well, you said that to me before that, like, you'll be scrolling through your reels and see all these things.
Guest:And you're like, everybody just decided to become a morning radio job.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's just like, you know, 20 different white guys on microphones talking about shitting their pants.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:maybe two women, but I mean, but nobody looks at it that way anymore.
Marc:It's all happening at, you know, all the time at the same frequency.
Marc:And it's, there's a desperation to it, which we never really surrendered to.
Marc:And I think that's the gift of, of staying in the audio world, you know, really kind of work, you know, working as hard as we do with our skillsets to create the product we create, but never being at this point where it's like, fuck dude.
Marc:I mean, do we, I mean, just the fact that I've got to post it on three social media steps sites is,
Marc:in this arcane way that I do it without shifting it.
Marc:And it may go out into nowhere, but that's the limit of the engagement I really want.
Marc:And I've thought about doing other things, you know, that, you know, you get these suggestions from social media people, maybe tape a little bit of it and do this stuff.
Marc:But then like, there's no end to that.
Guest:I also, I got, I got a, uh, you know, spreadsheet about the social media hits that like, you know, that the people posting your stuff, uh, have, have gotten and the stuff that comes from the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:is huge.
Guest:Like it does, it not only does a lot of, you know, in terms of numbers, but it's like new numbers, like new people that aren't following you or whatever.
Guest:And so it gets around.
Guest:For the podcast.
Guest:Yeah, for the podcast.
Guest:So if he puts up like a slideshow of a guest with the audio and that, and it was really, oh yeah, these are great.
Guest:And he's like, and so, yeah, are you seeing any results from it?
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:Like,
Guest:And none.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Zero.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they've got enough.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like there is zero correlation between any increase in the social media presence of the show and actually moving over to the show.
Guest:It just doesn't show up at all.
Guest:I mean, I guess you could, you know, it doesn't necessarily you don't necessarily have a
Guest:full correlation there because you don't know what churn has been.
Guest:Maybe you churned enough people that you brought enough new people in with the social posts, but you're not seeing growth from it.
Guest:That's for sure.
Marc:I think for me, it was always like, you know, we always knew that eventually, you know, the business would get to a point where there was such a glut that it would diminish, not necessarily, certainly not the quality, maybe the relevance a little bit, but just in terms of, we always knew that, you know, what you're fighting for.
Marc:And the reason that we
Marc:Did Monday and Thursday was, you know, you want to create a manageable amount of content so people can have it for the whole week.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The clips are the show.
Guest:And the number of people who actually will make the time for the full thing is diminishing.
Marc:That's dwindling.
Marc:I think that's probably it.
Marc:And that's not something we talked about earlier when we were just having this conversation off the mics.
Marc:I don't want to believe...
Marc:in a way that technology has diminished our attention spans and people have been talking about it forever because I can still watch, you know, whole shows and whole movies.
Marc:And, you know, I don't listen to much audio product in terms of talk, but I feel like I can still do that stuff.
Marc:But I think that most people don't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because why spend a half an hour listening to one thing when you can watch a hundred things?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And get all that dopamine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's fully enmeshed with your,
Marc:brains thinking like they they've they've figured it out well enough to track things for you that will feed you exactly what you want right yeah and I think like look I mean we and I don't even think it's old school we did an amazing thing we've got some sort of timeless and priceless
Marc:conversations with people.
Marc:I've grown as a person.
Marc:Unfortunately, it is a primary source of my social life.
Guest:Well, I was going to ask you about that because you just said like talking about like finding engagement with people and it is something we didn't mention.
Guest:You know, we kind of came to the same conclusion very quickly was how do you think you're going to adjust to not having regular conversations like this with people?
Marc:Well, I think like, you know, oddly, as many of these conversations I have, you know, and whatever comes from it and the humanity and the humanness of the engagement, I'm not hanging out with almost any of these people I talk to.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So doesn't that then make the act of doing the one hour conversation even more important for you?
Marc:But I think there's also like, you know, when I was growing up like in Albuquerque where I might end up, you know, you have a few friends hopefully in town and, you know, you go out, you take the time to make time for people in the real world to sit down and talk to them.
Marc:It's not going to be as exciting as talking to somebody about a movie they're directing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's probably going to be mostly about health things.
Right.
Marc:But I don't know how that adjustment really works for me.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Well, it's funny, though, because when you think about the history of the show, the people you've connected with the best, you're not connecting with them because of a movie or because of the work they've done.
Guest:It's like you and Paul Giamatti talking about your backs or whatever.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, and I don't know that those kind of conversations, like I feel I could probably reach out to Paul and have dinner or something.
Marc:But I guess I don't really know what effect that's going to have.
Marc:But I do know that, and like we talked about it, you know, when we had these conversations before we made this decision, and I said to you, I'm like, do you think you can really just do nothing?
Marc:And you're like, definitely.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, because I don't ever think of it as doing nothing.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:It's like, I know I'll be a busy person no matter what.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I always will be busy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the idea of being busy on my own terms has always been the key.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I do think there's a sense that continuing to do this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It becomes in service of something that's not our own terms.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't ever want that.
Marc:I always want to be able to.
Marc:You know, we're not entrepreneurs.
Marc:You know, we're not greedy people.
Marc:I think we're probably, you know, competitive people and we're workaholics.
Marc:But I don't think either of us ever anticipated that we would, you know, get to a point where we're like, well, we can comfortably not do this anymore.
Guest:No, I got a job while we were doing this.
Guest:I got a job in television.
Guest:And I only wound up keeping that job for about three years until I said, oh, I got to stop because I've got two full jobs here.
Guest:One of them is a thing I created with Mark.
Guest:And the other is I'm working for a major corporation.
Guest:So why don't I stop that one and do the thing that I have co-ownership of, right?
Guest:But getting that TV job was like me in my head being like, oh, great.
Guest:I'll do this for 30 years, 30 years.
Guest:Like I had that in my head.
Guest:Like I'll do this for 30 years.
Guest:That way I can support myself with whatever side stuff I want to do, like the podcast or anything else.
Guest:And that's what I'll do till I'm 66.
Marc:You get pension, you get coverage.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Well, that was funny because when you decided to let go of the job, I remember I was like, dude, don't, you know, because you got a kid, you got a life.
Marc:And I'm like, you know, you don't have to.
Marc:You're like, dude, I've thought about that.
Marc:Like I was assuming like you of all people was just making this impulsive decision.
Marc:I was concerned.
Marc:I'm like, don't do it, man.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:I can take the hit.
Guest:I live like an idiot.
Guest:I mean, don't think that I didn't have moments where I was like, that's a lot to give up.
Guest:Like I definitely did like not it wasn't second guessing, but I was like, wow, that's crazy to be in that position.
Guest:But most people, if they're working in media, would love to have and to just be like, nah, I got to get rid of that.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, some of my concerns just to have over the years, you know, I've sort of realized my limitations and my, you know, place in the world where, like, if I'm not in whatever public place I am on a weekly basis, I don't know what will happen to all that.
Marc:But I don't, like, just thinking about it now, there are those actors and those people where people are like, what happened to that guy?
Marc:And then someone says, well, I think he just is, you know, living his life in New Mexico.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's not bad.
Guest:No, almost always the reaction to that is like, oh, well, good for him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You do miss them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like, I wish he would have done one more thing or I miss that he's not doing this thing.
Marc:But, you know, that goes away.
Guest:Well, I keep saying to you, I've been saying to you for many months, like, you know, going back to you talking about doing the Apple show and this and that, that, you know, I've been like, this is the time where you need to start thinking about what makes you happy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, what are you okay with?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And,
Guest:What would you be okay with doing on a day where you weren't working?
Guest:What would make you happy about that?
Guest:And I think you've actually put some effort into thinking about that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:There are places I've wanted to go.
Marc:If I can get my dread down just to the basic existential dread of mortality as opposed to every other fucking thing I have to do in my life, that might be relaxing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're like, I've never been able to take a real vacation in any way without it being work or worrying about getting the podcast in during the week.
Marc:I mean, that might be interesting.
Marc:I mean, there's a whole world out there.
Marc:You know, I'm just going to have to get out from under...
Marc:Whatever the core anxieties are and try to live my life a little bit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, a lot of it is that you're confronting this stuff for the first time where, you know, someone else in their life might have confronted it 20 years before.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I do think there's a kind of pattern I see with people I know who had to kind of build themselves.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For any issues that I can talk about in terms of my upbringing or my life or my own personal anxiety or neuroses is that I was raised with a lot of self-esteem, a lot of encouragement from parents, a lot of the idea of following the things I wanted to do, pursuing them, feeling confident in myself.
Guest:And I think probably my most...
Guest:The most building that went on for me was like in college.
Guest:I was like, but getting out of college, I'm not going to say I never changed.
Guest:But like to be like in my early 20s is, you know, relatively similar to the person I am now, just hopefully with a little more wisdom.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I see people in my life who didn't have that and didn't get it until their 30s or 40s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so there's this, you know, kind of similar trajectory that all people have in their lives, but it could just be pushed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so now like you're in your 60s, I think at a time where some people figured out this type of stuff decades before.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But your benefit is you can figure it out without the pressures that most people still have to have on themselves.
Marc:Like what am I going to do for a living?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:How am I going to pay that
Guest:mortgage I'm gonna do this and that like I got or I could put these kids through college and all that like yeah you have a freedom to be able to to to come into your own now as uh you know a human and at retirement age yeah well I mean it's always been in my mind to do that yeah and there's uh there's something fortunate about the level of
Marc:notoriety or fame that I've achieved that, you know, I'm not, you know, part of anyone else's business.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And my ego hasn't been, you know, amplified by insane sort of public success.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, and everything's been sort of on my own terms.
Marc:Like, I don't really have any apprehension about our decision.
Marc:Right.
Guest:No, it's so funny because I walked over here and I was like, you know, I was pretty sure that, you know, we were on the same page.
Guest:But I didn't know 100 percent that if I said like the way I felt about it, like there might be you might have a different feeling or you might be like, wait, but end it entirely.
Guest:Like, shouldn't we keep it going somehow?
Guest:But like right away, I was like, I think the smartest thing to do is for us to end this.
Guest:And you were like, yep.
Marc:Well, people have always said to both of us, you know, in my mind, it was always going to... If anyone said, how long are you going to do it for?
Marc:I'm like, as long as Brendan wants.
Guest:Yeah, and I said the same thing, right.
Guest:But so that then becomes a thing where we actually do have to figure it out.
Guest:And oddly, I think we're both on the same page.
Marc:Well, it became... It was that thing, what it was, it was really...
Marc:I think, you know, because we have pretty good boundaries with each other.
Marc:And, you know, to our credit, you know, nothing has ever really polluted our professional or personal relationship, whether it was ego or wanting to do other things.
Marc:But I think that conversation we had a few months ago about just the level of burnout we were operating at and acknowledging it, because I don't I won't acknowledge that.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And I think that you were sort of ahead of me in identifying it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how could it not be that?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Because of the nature of my work and how I work and being self-employed, I never even factored that in.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That it's even a real thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you hit these walls where you're like, Jesus Christ, dude, I can't, you know, I just don't know if I got it in me.
Marc:to figure out where to go with this interview or whatever.
Guest:And then you realize that people do it just because of money, right?
Guest:So that's another thing.
Guest:It's like to be like, oh, well, we got to do it again for another deal because you'll get X amount of money for another three, four years.
Guest:And it's like, you have to stop and think.
Guest:It's like,
Guest:Why would you kill yourself over a little more money?
Marc:Well, yeah, and also it's just like it's a gift being two guys that never thought we'd make the money we made and also not being greedy, weird, you know, just not being people that live big lives.
Guest:Yes, that's the thing.
Guest:I cannot imagine a bigger life than I live.
Guest:I can't imagine it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you wouldn't want it.
Guest:I definitely wouldn't want it, but I also know like- Were you going to buy a boat?
Guest:No, I can't buy a boat.
Guest:I think I've told you this.
Guest:I spoke to my finance guy and said like, how do I look?
Guest:How does this look?
Guest:And he's like, you're fine.
Guest:You're totally fine.
Guest:And I was like, yeah, but what can't I do?
Guest:I don't want to risk anything.
Guest:I'm a very cautious person.
Guest:And he's like, nothing.
Guest:Do whatever you want.
Guest:Don't buy a boat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That would be stupid.
Guest:That's the only thing.
Guest:Don't buy a boat.
Guest:So I was like, all right, I won't buy a boat.
Guest:That's what I won't do.
Marc:It's like Colin Jost and Pete Davidson bought that fucking ferry.
Marc:They bought a whole... Like the Staten Island ferry?
Marc:They bought a retired ferry boat with this idea that they'd start a club and now they're just sitting on this fucking... Oh, my God.
Marc:...parked ferry boat.
Guest:Now, those guys, I guess they have enough, but that's not... Like, that's got to be...
Marc:a pain in the ass like just paying rent on it yeah you know and it's just gonna break down now you gotta figure out how to throw it in the garbage I do think whoever sold that old boat was like we got a fucking live one here yes right now they got this giant piece of garbage that's just floating there somewhere parked and costing money yeah
Guest:My only thing that I would ever do if like it was like money was like absolutely no object ever.
Guest:And believe me, like I'm very fortunate to be in a situation where it's like for my life, it's not.
Guest:But if I did expand my life, the only thing I would do is like what I'm going to do later today is go down to Quentin Tarantino's movie theater and see a movie.
Guest:That's exactly what I would do.
Guest:Like, if I had, like, money to the point where it never mattered anymore, I'd be like, well, I'll open movie theaters.
Marc:That'd be great.
Marc:Yeah, I have no idea what I'm going to do with it.
Marc:I just, I don't know, you know, because I don't have any family.
Marc:So I've got to, you know, like, I've got to, you know, be more aware of my charitable contributions.
Marc:And sometimes I'm just sort of like, oh, my friends need some money.
Marc:Maybe I should give them some money.
Guest:Which is great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Think about that.
Guest:Think about putting yourself in that position, even...
Guest:16 years ago, before we started this thing, you were broke.
Guest:I know.
Guest:So it's like you did this thing that gets you in a position to say to yourself right now, to be wrapping this up, and you're not thinking like, okay, what do I do?
Guest:How the fuck am I going to live?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And instead you're like, well, I guess I give more money away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's fucking amazing.
Guest:Like that's like actually life.
Guest:Like that's how it should work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that you're like, I've had success.
Guest:It's, it's, it's moved me along to a point of happiness and I can now think about other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And whatever happens here on the future of the subscription you're on, Full Marin and WTF Plus, we will let you know about that.
Guest:That's all still up in the air.
Guest:Yeah, we got a little time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.