BONUS WTF Collections - The Early Confrontations
Marc:I'm going to talk to Carlos Mencia as a contemporary and as a fellow comic and see where that takes us.
Marc:I got a personal thing that I didn't bring up before, but it came up numerous times.
Marc:And I want to know, you know, where you what you say about it.
Marc:Now, granted, I'm willing to let you be an asshole.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm willing to know that you're you know, you obviously did what you had to do to get where you are.
Marc:And there is a certain power trip about it.
Marc:I understand that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:OK.
Marc:One time I was doing the improv.
Marc:I was headlining.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you came and bumped me and did like 45, 50 minutes now.
Marc:And then I left because I was like, you know, fuck that.
Marc:Fuck him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:OK.
Marc:Now I see that this is a pattern that, you know, you bump headliners and you do an hour to two hours.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, is this a territorial thing?
Marc:Are you saying, fuck you?
Marc:This is, you know, I'm I'm the boss.
Guest:Be honest.
Guest:I'll be honest with you, man.
Guest:It was, remember last time we were talking, that's what happened to me.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Eddie Griffin didn't never apologize.
Marc:But he's the one guy.
Guest:No, man.
Guest:For an hour?
Marc:Okay, at the comedy store.
Guest:At the comedy store?
Marc:Are you telling me there's no territoriality to you saying, fuck you, who's the biggest dick in town?
Guest:No, it's my only way of dealing with how hateful
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So you're saying that you do it, you do it out of spite.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:So if what's your beef with me, why'd you go teach me a lesson?
Guest:Well, that's fucking, that, that just like me being an asshole and me being, you know what I mean?
Guest:Taking it, you know, just it's, it's one of those things where, you know, especially before, man, it was like,
Guest:i i i felt like especially guys like you you know what i mean who came from that different school uh-huh you know what i mean you wanted to school me who came to not school you as much as like you know fuck you okay i am my comedy isn't to be shit on you know what i mean okay so you do alternative you do but i didn't personally shit on you oh no no you never did but you just had you were making an example
Guest:But, dude, like, think about how difficult it is as a human being for me.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You call me up and then you tell me that all these people, like, are saying, no, fuck that.
Marc:You got to prove it.
Marc:They're not saying that.
Marc:This is me.
Marc:You know, everyone I talked to was very diplomatic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, some of them, you know, have empathy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:uh for for what they see as your condition right but but so you you did it was it was some swinging dick shit with that stuff you had some lessons to teach yeah man i mean it's it's still it still happens sometimes and when you feel it happening you're like fuck that guy i'm gonna go down there and do an hour to an hour and a half in front of him to show him who's boss bro listen when when you watch that tape and i don't know how many i've never seen it i mean the uh the the rogan thing that's yeah that's you know this is beyond that but
Guest:here's the deal when you watch that or when they interviewed a bunch of comics at the comedy store and comics that i've never even taken anything from supposedly you are like oh yeah he takes shit right no i get that when a guy like that when i'm on when i'm on stage excuse me at the at the comedy store and i look straight ahead and there's that little doorway that leads downstairs to the hall yeah and i see one of those guys
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's on the list after me.
Guest:Fuck him.
Guest:Fuck him.
Guest:Because I've tried to be nice to these guys.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I've walked up to Ari and been like, Ari, well, fuck you.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:All right.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So when that happens and those guys are there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But part of me wants to be cool and be like, you know what?
Guest:Let me be a nice guy.
Guest:That shit don't work though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're too angry.
Guest:No, it doesn't.
Guest:It doesn't help the situation.
Marc:Do you think that bumping them and doing an hour helps?
Marc:No, but it doesn't.
Marc:It doesn't hurt.
Guest:It doesn't hurt.
Guest:It makes you more of an asshole.
Guest:Maybe, but it doesn't hurt.
Guest:It doesn't stop them from talking shit.
Guest:It doesn't stop them from.
Guest:Well, no one's going to stop talking shit because.
Marc:okay so so there if nobody's gonna stop talking shit right yeah no matter what i do they're not gonna stop i don't know if that's true though i don't know if it's no matter what you do because quite honestly like you know when i when i talked to steve you know you guys were friends he has empathy you know he has his beefs you know he said you bumped him down in uh in anaheim and did two hours on the first time he headlined bro let me tell you about about steve did you go to the ontario improv when he was headlining yeah
Guest:I don't remember that.
Guest:No, I swear to God, I don't.
Guest:Because I would tell you if I did.
Guest:But it's possible.
Guest:It's possible that I did it.
Guest:It's not possible that I did two hours.
Guest:That I wouldn't do.
Guest:No way would I do two hours.
Guest:Maybe an hour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You did 50 minutes in front of me.
Guest:I know it.
Guest:Yeah, but that's different because it's the improv like here.
Guest:It's not one, two, three improv.
Marc:All right.
Marc:We've established the fact that sometimes if you feel it in your balls to go up and bump a headliner to show them who's boss, you'll do that.
Guest:to get even you know what but the way you put it i sound like a dick but you know what it's a dick move but it is all about dick it is it truly is all right moving it's like the only place it's the only fucking place man that i that i can get back at this shit that i can fucking find balance with it you know what i mean it's the only place but it doesn't but it doesn't do anything to to to stop it
Marc:I've done listen listen I've gone to the improv many times and not done 45 minutes no I know I know but what I'm saying is that what it does is it you know there's part of it in my mind if I'm going to look at it as a mythic battle sure sure where that wherever your career is or however way everyone's thinking about you you're going to go in and say fuck you I'm still here eat that shit yeah okay yeah moving on
Marc:Freddie Soto.
Marc:Freddie was another opener of mine.
Marc:Okay, but Freddie, you know, passed away, you know, prematurely, had a heart attack, however it was.
Marc:And there are people that say that you caused him a lot of stress.
Marc:by doing his material on stage.
Marc:And more, more than that, that a week after he died, you went on stage with his jokes.
Guest:That's not true, man.
Guest:I mean, listen, that's the saddest thing ever.
Guest:I'm a Freddie out of love, man.
Guest:I know Freddie.
Marc:Well, look, the one thing I'm learning about you is everybody loves you.
Marc:It loved you.
Marc:You had good friends, but at some point it turned.
Marc:And, and at some point people started to distrust you.
Marc:They started to accuse you of stealing their shit.
Marc:They started being afraid to perform in front of you.
Marc:I don't know when that happened, but,
Marc:i don't either it just comes down to you know if i'm talking to you as a peer that you know you're concerned about you know your uh reputation and and what i'm saying is that you know if people are saying that you know a manager at the improv wanted to shut the mics off a week after freddie is dead uh you know because you're doing his shit that's first of all i didn't i don't even remember performing like at that time at that time when he passed away we could actually probably look at my schedule i
Guest:I guarantee you that I wasn't even in town at the time.
Marc:Is there a chance?
Marc:Let me just ask you something.
Marc:Is there a chance?
Marc:Because, look, I've talked to people about stealing before.
Marc:I've talked to people, and I am empathetic.
Marc:I'm not attacking you.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:Is there a chance that you absorb this shit, and you don't know that you're doing similar things or doing people's bits?
Marc:Is there a chance?
Guest:With openers, no.
Guest:With headliners, possibly.
Guest:But with openers, no, because what happens with guys like...
Guest:I won't even name names.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You've, you've denied that.
Guest:With young guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Most of the time when they do a bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, I did that like 15 years ago.
Guest:I did the bit about the cougars 15 years ago.
Guest:So sometimes these guys have never seen that bit that I did in 1992 about, you know, having sex with a 40 year old woman.
Marc:Well, it could be this.
Guest:same with you in the in the cosby thing that you know you were a kid you might have seen that i fuck dude i wish i could tell you right now like i i swear to god i wish i could say look you know what man i've been an asshole and i want to change and i'm different than that guy that i was before and i'm not afraid and you know what i might have taken some people's shit
Guest:And to those people, I apologize.
Guest:Because I know that everybody would be like, well, fuck.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:Like, I know how people work.
Marc:I know that they would- You know it too well, I think.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:I know that they would say that, and I want to say that.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Like, I fucking do.
Guest:But-
Guest:I don't watch other people to take their shit.
Marc:Okay, so you qualified that by saying headliners maybe.
Marc:Maybe headliners.
Guest:Maybe I absorbed something from watching a headline that made me go, oh, fuck.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because I know what happens with some people's brains.
Marc:I talked to Robin Williams about this.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I talked to him specifically about it.
Marc:Sometimes people just got sponge brains and their brains are working really quick so you all of a sudden you see a bit that you think is funny and then you add a couple tags to it in your head and a few days later you don't remember that you saw the bit, you just remember what you added to it and it's your bit.
Guest:Um...
Guest:Well, that I've consciously done what I have done is like, let's say I saw Paul Mooney do a joke about how black people do this.
Guest:And I went, oh, fuck.
Guest:Mexicans, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And like found that angle in that one joke.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:That I've consciously done.
Guest:That's just derivative.
Guest:That's not.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's a difference.
Guest:In that sense.
Right.
Guest:And I am a sponge, so to speak.
Guest:You know, I do remember, like, I don't write stuff down.
Guest:Like, I don't actually have written stuff.
Guest:I record it so that I can remember it.
Guest:But I'm also aware of, you know, jokes that I do that I go, ugh.
Guest:I don't know anybody specifically as much as I know that this is not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like right now, there's this bit that I do about the president and, you know, how he's our first half white president.
Guest:That's the whole premise of it.
Guest:That he's not like, you know, ghetto black.
Guest:That's the whole thing.
Marc:um and but that's a stock premise at this point yeah but see that's the stuff that i get you know no i know because like you know there's like some of the guys said like you know if carlos would just you know do his shit he knows how to do shit that you know it seems that a lot of this stuff is hung up on shit that anybody could do right
Marc:They can't necessarily do it like you, but a lot of this discussion is about shit that is just fucking topical comment.
Marc:I don't even know why I'm getting angry in this conversation.
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:I learned something from being here last time.
Guest:The one was George.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I forgot to tell you until I thought about it because you said...
Guest:You said something that made me think about it.
Guest:And later I went, oh, fuck.
Guest:When I went up to George and said, I didn't take your shit.
Guest:George accepted that.
Guest:George is like, OK, but you should stop doing it anyway, because I've been doing it longer than you out of respect.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Today, today I would do that.
Guest:Back then, when I wanted to prove to myself and the world that I was funny, I took that as an affront.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's one I wish I could have back.
Marc:Yeah, I think there's a little Latino macho thing going on between you and George.
Guest:But I like George.
Marc:I like George's stuff.
Marc:I like all these guys' stuff.
Marc:But you guys compete.
Marc:We all compete, but it just seems like the competition element of trying to be a success has driven you to perhaps involuntarily absorb other people's material and fuck people off.
Guest:Fuck people off, yeah.
Guest:Piss them off, yeah.
Guest:Do dick shit, yeah.
Guest:Absorb their shit on purpose.
Marc:I didn't say on purpose.
Marc:Involuntarily.
Guest:Even involuntarily.
Guest:I mean, look, it's been going on for way too long for me to be naive about it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At this point...
Guest:I would say to you from an outside, he's doing it on purpose.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:If it's happening, it's on purpose.
Guest:Now, you would be.
Guest:Yeah, because this isn't the first time this came up.
Guest:It didn't happen a year ago.
Guest:I mean, it went public a long time.
Marc:You said it's been coming at you for your whole career.
Guest:It's been coming at me for, yeah.
Guest:So you're saying it's not on purpose.
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I'm saying not only that, I'm like really conscious of staying away from any shit that's personal.
Guest:There are guys now that won't go on stage in front of you.
Guest:That's not true, man.
Guest:Nobody that I know of except for Ari.
Guest:Ari is the only person that I know of that actually didn't.
Guest:I've done big shows with Bill Burr.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It just gets perpetuated to a point where the stories of it...
Marc:become better than the actual you know what and you're right act itself right that's why you know when i got in the mire of this like it was not my intention to rehash anything but i did want to give you the opportunity to come back here and deal with this shit i've i've never dealt with it like this and like i said listen you know no gaffigan jokes gaffigan
Guest:Now, he whispers.
Guest:Now, one time I whispered a whole show, but this was probably like in 1998.
Guest:So it was probably before I even knew of any of his stuff.
Guest:But, you know, you know, I'm look, if I've seen him, I could tell you what they do and how they do it.
Guest:And I stay away from that shit.
Guest:You know, from the look at him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Or with, you know, Wendy, where... Yeah, where she'll just... Throw aside the punchline.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, technique, yeah.
Guest:I get all that stuff.
Guest:And, you know, like I said, a lot of this stuff is...
Guest:A lot of this stuff becomes personal, most likely because, you know, I am kind of a guarded human being when it comes to that stuff.
Guest:What do you want to say to everybody?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:To whatever anybody has thought that I've done to them, you know, I'm sorry, man.
Guest:What about to the audience?
Guest:To my audience, you know, well... And to the people that you're dissenters.
Guest:I don't know what to say to them.
Guest:Like...
Guest:You've asked me every question.
Guest:I haven't sidestepped any.
Guest:Do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:I haven't tried to sidestep it.
Guest:I've answered it as honestly as I can.
Guest:I mean, and more so now than even last time, because I felt like last time,
Guest:There was still a sense of agenda on my behalf.
Guest:I felt that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's because I want people to like me.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And what happened was this morning, ironically, ironically, bro, this morning, I'm driving.
Guest:Well, I wasn't driving.
Guest:I was in a car and I started writing about this.
Guest:Just not funny stuff.
Guest:Just, you know, I'm watching the sunrise.
Guest:The journey, you know, that I've been through is amazing.
Guest:Yet because of my fears, it seems I'm never satisfied.
Guest:Don't misunderstand.
Guest:I've always been happy.
Guest:It's just that, you know, having been born in a village and raised in this country has been.
Guest:And so that's what this was about.
Guest:It was literally me going, you know.
Guest:I've cared so much about what people think about me that it has led me to negative behavior.
Guest:It has led me to go on stage and say, fuck you, because I was worried about them.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Not me.
Guest:I mean, part of like going on stage at the comedy store was...
Guest:that i used to love was and and this was even an a bigger asshole move than doing a long time you know what i used to do at the comedy store about four five seven years ago i used to go on stage well i used to hang out when there was a bad crowd you know what i mean and just watch the comics go this crowd sucks this crowd sucks this crowd sucks this crowd sucks you know that kind of everybody's having shitty sets and then i'd go up on stage and have a really great set and right at that moment where you know i have them
Guest:I would look back at my brother and go, how long was that, bro?
Guest:And he'd go, five minutes.
Guest:And I'd be like, that's it.
Guest:Good night, everybody.
Guest:Like, that was just me going.
Guest:That's how you do it, fuckers.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But a lot of that was to myself as well.
Guest:To prove to myself that, you know, you got it.
Guest:You can still do this.
Guest:But what I realized...
Guest:This morning, that is not about them.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I shouldn't do things for them.
Guest:I should do things for me.
Guest:And when I get off stage at the comedy store or any of those places, after doing a long time and I just run, it doesn't feel good.
Guest:It doesn't feel good that I know that I bumped people.
Guest:It doesn't feel good that I know that I fucked up somebody's night.
Guest:It doesn't feel good that you left.
Guest:yeah having that been your show yeah that doesn't that doesn't feel good it doesn't make me happy it doesn't turn me on um it does when it's those pieces of shit okay that does all right so you but it makes me look like a fucking asshole and you know what whatever they think of me
Guest:i shouldn't do that to them because as much as they're trying to ruin my livelihood by putting it out to everyone in the world that my art is shit nobody should buy it that even though all these guys want to take not just the comedy but you know my livelihood some of these guys would be happy to take my livelihood um
Guest:It doesn't condone me doing the same to them by performing so long that they don't get to perform in front of a decent audience and get that comedy time that they should get.
Guest:And in that respect, I do take responsibility for that.
Guest:And for that, I am sorry that I'm doing the same shit, just in a different way to them.
Guest:And I just don't want to be that person anymore.
Guest:To anybody that feels, you know, harmed by me, I do apologize, man, for anybody that I have that I've actually harmed in this business on the way to wherever I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, to you, I apologize.
Guest:I mean, you know, you never did anything to me to deserve that ever.
Guest:I mean, never.
Guest:And, you know.
Guest:I just always felt like the fucking whole world was against me, bro.
Guest:And if I seemingly absorb somebody's shit without knowing it, like I said, I'm hypersensitive to it.
Guest:I can't imagine that I would without being somewhat aware of certain jokes.
Guest:But if anybody believes that it's their joke, that that's the one joke that you think is going to take you to the top or that one joke that you think is going to get you on TV.
Guest:Write some new jokes.
Guest:no man call me you know what i mean call me and i'll drop it i swear to god all right i mean listen yeah i i can write new shit okay i can think of new stuff all right but don't don't slander you behind your back well just come up to me man i think that's right i think come up to me and say someone steals from my shit right that's the way it should be handled you know between the guy who feels like he's been stolen from and the guy who we think stole it
Guest:And if at that point I'm an asshole, then go for it.
Guest:Yeah, go talk about me.
Guest:Yeah, go say he's a piece of shit.
Guest:It was one fucking joke and that was it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Do that.
Guest:But the internet thing, it's just gotten to the point where it's ridiculous.
Guest:And this morning, I really did let it go.
Guest:I guess I really do want to be perceived as a nice guy until I get pissed off.
Marc:And as a good comic.
Guest:Yeah, it's hard for me to fucking give in to that because it brings in so much pain, bro.
Marc:All right, well, let's not do it.
Marc:Let's just say thank you.
Marc:Do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:I think you've— But I do want people to know that, that I feel that pain.
Guest:I do, you know— I felt it for a couple minutes.
Guest:yeah and then i get out of it well yeah of course i mean you don't want to live in it that's why we're comics right that's i know but you know what i'm saying it's like i go there and i'm like fuck man i'm that overwhelming yeah i'm the fucking and it's not like robin williams it's not like milton burrell it's something different this is like it is people that don't know comedy on the other hand i want especially comics at the
Guest:I have a couple of friends who want to come and beat the shit out of you.
Guest:For real.
Guest:Like fuck you up.
Guest:And I tell them not to because for whatever reason, let me not interpret my own behavior.
Guest:But I will tell you that a few comics were like, dude, just, just, I just want to go to the comedy store, bro.
Guest:I just want to go to the comedy store and I know the guys and it was going to knock them the fuck out and tell them to stop.
Guest:And I'm like, nah, bro, that's not what I want.
Guest:That's not who I am.
Guest:That's,
Guest:You know, I may be a dick on stage, but that's not why I'm so like I want those people to know that, you know, despite of what you think, I have, you know, stopped bad shit from happening.
Guest:There is a line, so to speak, you know, that I won't that I won't cross.
Guest:I've never been confronted like this about why I go on stage for so long.
Guest:And I've never wanted to because it's ugly.
Guest:But I'm glad that that mirror was pointed in my direction because, you know, that's some shit that I shouldn't do, regardless of who's going on before or after me.
Guest:Thanks, Carlos.
Marc:So Dane Cook called me on the phone.
Marc:It was very intense on the phone.
Marc:I remember getting the phone call in San Francisco.
Marc:Phone rings.
Marc:I'm like, hello.
Marc:He's like, Mark, it's Dane Cook.
Guest:I'm trying to understand how you perceive me.
Guest:And so I'm trying to see what you see.
Marc:I perceive you as a guy that is very ambitious, very, very in control of his skill set, is creative, loves attention, is decent to his fans, has a lot of them.
Marc:I do think that you, out of necessity, have a blind spot.
Marc:In terms of how people really see you because you choose to turn shit off.
Marc:I think you have the focus of a motivational speaker and it's very engaging.
Marc:It's electrifying.
Marc:I felt it over the phone.
Marc:What else do I also think?
Marc:I think you're a bit of a control freak.
Marc:And that when things aren't going your way, you must be a real motherfucker.
Marc:Do you have any water?
Guest:I need one right now.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I am very ambitious.
Guest:I'm absolutely a big dreamer.
Guest:I love creating.
Guest:But you're so wrong about being a motherfucker or whatever goes with that.
Guest:When you don't get what you want.
Guest:When I don't get what I want, I've always understood that I'm just not always going to get what I want in this world.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:You've never thrown a temper tantrum.
Guest:Not where I make people feel badly about themselves.
Guest:I've gotten mad.
Guest:Yeah, I go home and I fucking get mad.
Guest:But I'm not an angry person.
Guest:I don't lash out.
Guest:I don't go home and kick the dog.
Guest:I'm not one of those people.
Guest:I'm the furthest thing from a motherfucker.
Guest:If anything, what I've always really wanted and why I did things like tourgasm and stuff was like...
Guest:I just want to feel part of a gang.
Guest:I want to feel part of an ensemble of people.
Guest:That's why it's like people go, why do you like to do movies versus stand-up?
Guest:I said, I always love stand-up more, but I like when a director goes, this is what I need.
Guest:Here's what I'm trying to accomplish.
Guest:And then I get to work with a bunch of people that have their own ideas of where we're going.
Guest:And then we collectively get there together.
Guest:That actually makes me happier than feeling like I'm by myself.
Guest:I did what I did as hard as I did it alone for so many years so I wouldn't need to be alone anymore.
Guest:Oh, because you wanted to get friends.
Guest:Because I just wanted to feel like a part of a community.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I realized that it wasn't necessarily going to be comedy because comedy wasn't sports.
Guest:It wasn't like you beat your opponent and they go, hey, but you know what?
Guest:He deserves it.
Guest:It's a good game.
Guest:It wasn't going to be like that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's not to say, Mark, that I didn't – I guess we're kind of painting it as like it's me-verse.
Guest:The people I love and admire in the comics that I came up wanting to emulate that I've had a chance to actually sit with sometimes or meet with, they get it.
Guest:And they've maybe been through things that you don't know until you've been to my level, that you just don't get.
Guest:And what comes at you, you don't know.
Guest:But Chris Rock knows and Steve Martin knows and Bill Cosby knows about the failure part of it, about the people believing that you're a motherfucker because you want to be able to control a situation and say, you know what?
Guest:I know what's best because I'm the guy with the idea.
Guest:And what that means to somebody standing on the corner being told like, all right, you need to go do this.
Guest:And so when this stuff's coming at me and you're saying, you're a motherfucker, it's like, no, I'm determined.
Guest:And I want to be the foreman.
Guest:I do want to be like, I know how this building needs to be built.
Guest:And I know that I'm 20 years into a career that I want to be 80.
Guest:I've done every arena everywhere with 20,000 people.
Guest:A million people came out to my tour last year.
Guest:It was the first time I'd smiled since my folks passed away.
Guest:I just wanted to get out there and be happy, man, and make other people happy.
Guest:And so now that I'm back and really feeling healthy, it's like I just want to take them in different places.
Marc:So you want to set up a production organization.
Marc:So you're going to create a whole other thing that you're going to draw from the audience you have and build your mountain.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, just... Because you're talking business now.
Marc:I mean, this is business.
Guest:Well, it's creative.
Guest:They dance together.
Guest:It's like, oh, I can think of an idea and put it down on paper, and if it's funny or moving, then the fans are happy.
Guest:So, yeah, it's the business of comedy.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Were you always thinking along those lines?
Guest:Always.
Guest:You're like, how do I become a superstar?
Guest:No, it wasn't how can I be a superstar, but, you know, when I was hanging out with my pop once, I remember he was...
Guest:I remember telling him because I was helping him with a sign for a company that he was putting up.
Guest:And he was excited because the paints that he used were orange and white.
Guest:And he was like, look at the other window businesses.
Guest:Everybody else uses blue.
Guest:I'm going to stand out because I'm using orange.
Guest:And he had this thing about self-promotion.
Guest:He was so interested in finding new ways to attract people.
Guest:Now, once they're there, they might peek in and go, I'm not interested.
Guest:But nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd.
Guest:And that's the thing that I remember him stating to me early on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then in the same way you said at the beginning, you do anything necessary to get laughs.
Guest:At that time, anything I could to just get noticed so that people... It's those guys that maybe play the drums on the streets and then they're going to do a thing where they jump over people and they go, everybody line up, everybody.
Guest:And you get a whole crowd in New York and everyone stands around and you wait for 20 minutes while they're trying to make a couple of bucks to...
Guest:You know, maybe it's like, all right, there's people that hang out and go, is this worth it?
Guest:Those people are going to go, I have just 10 other things I'd rather do.
Marc:You know, it seems that somehow or another that, you know, I know you listen to the Carlos episode and you're not the same animal as he is that, you know, that somehow or another you're weathering this storm of, of dissent and, and that somehow or another, even with the stealing accusations, you seem to be doing okay.
Marc:So do you feel that those things stuck or they didn't stick or what?
Guest:Definitely some of it sticks.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:I mentioned there's always going to be a Wikipedia entry somewhere that people's going to say, this guy stole, he's a thief.
Guest:But what does it mean in the broader sense?
Guest:In an industry that's built...
Guest:on theft and stealing of ideas.
Guest:And, you know, we can name 10 names, but the, the Quentin Tarantinos who said, I lifted this whole thing or raps stars that everybody lifts, everybody steals.
Guest:There was a moment in my life.
Guest:I remember it was like, after I was going through all that stuff with my mom and pops, it was like, I just want to like, what the cleanse that I do, dude, I wish I fucking stole.
Guest:So I could say I stole those bits and,
Guest:So I could just release something, but I, but because I didn't and I can't, I'm not a liar.
Guest:I was like, I just need to like, time will finally show through more things that I create.
Guest:I need to 10 years from now have five new hours that you and I can look at and go, yeah, that has nothing to do with.
Marc:And I'm sure you will do that.
Marc:But in, in the sense of like, you know, right now that like, was there a point where you're like, I'm going to, I'm just going to ride this out because you kept it between the two of you.
Marc:Yeah, for the most part.
Marc:And I know some of that got out and he did some of it on stage, but he was pretty.
Marc:He took the high road in comparison to some people.
Marc:Louie did.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you guys spoke.
Marc:But even once we emailed, we emailed.
Marc:OK, even once that had happened, you know, you at some point knew, like, I'm not going to be able to get rid of this.
Guest:Yeah, because Louie is a very, very well respected person.
Guest:incredible comedian who has a lot of fans and a lot of people that support him well what the fuck happened there was these three bits that were similar one bit was something that about naming your kid a crazy name that to be honest I remember that little bit but it's a Steve Martin bit
Guest:all right so okay so you stole so but i'm not saying no and am i saying that louis stole something from steve martin no i'm saying that it's an idea or concept where steve martin's original i'm gonna name it my kid and then in 1992 i wrote a joke where i said i'm gonna name my kid non-stop flight from boston to los angeles just to fuck him up for when he's trying to book travel plans for the rest of my
Marc:Right, so you're saying that because the nature of the absurdity of... Absurd, yes.
Marc:Louis is not even absurd anymore, but there was a time where he was more of an absurdist, that the influence could have trickled down, and absurdism is what it is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That it's a roll of the dice.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Another concept where he's talking about a guy getting hit on the bike, and I talk about the way you react to somebody, or saying like... Bad thing!
Marc:I remember that joke.
Marc:I mean...
Guest:Literally, I remember driving with my mother in Arlington, Massachusetts.
Guest:She's in the passenger seat, and she used to be one of those people that stepped on a fake pedal.
Guest:I mean, come on, man.
Guest:We're talking about these little, tiny, tic-tac-size concepts.
Guest:But it was that thing, Mark, where it was like, okay, I want to be able to look at this and go...
Guest:People who want to mention me in the name of, like, a Carlos, I mean, that's a far cry.
Marc:No, I don't really think that.
Marc:No, I think you're right.
Marc:And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, this stuff, it is what it is.
Marc:Like you said, it's going to stick, but, you know, it's not some sort of weird serial pattern of taking everything in it.
Guest:It fucked me up.
Guest:It fucked me up for a little bit at a time when I was already fucked up because of what I was dealing with.
Guest:I didn't say anything.
Guest:I didn't want to fight back.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:Like you said, oh, I'm a motherfucker.
Guest:A motherfucker would have been like every morning radio guy that I would have been out there going, let me tell you what this guy said or did or the side of the story that I didn't hear from Louie about, you know, maybe the way.
Guest:But I think what you were saying – I didn't want to – it doesn't matter.
Guest:Because it's not he said, she said.
Guest:It doesn't matter.
Guest:What matters is what is out there now that's still perpetuated.
Guest:Now there's a place here or even when I did Howard where I can – you're hearing me say –
Guest:It has nothing to do with me.
Guest:I did not take those things.
Guest:And it sucks that they're similar, and I wish that they weren't.
Guest:I really do, so it would have nothing to do with me.
Guest:But it does, and all it makes me do, Mark, is want to work harder and create something original again that people look at and go, that's Danes.
Guest:Well, that seems to be happening a bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also, I appreciate you talking about it because it wasn't something that I was pressing to find.
Marc:But that when you get to a certain level, that you're going to be taken down.
Marc:And my first instinct when you were comparing yourself to Chris Rock or to Steve Martin, I was thinking like, who the fuck does this guy think he is?
Marc:And I'm like, he's the guy that sells out Madison Square Garden.
Marc:I mean, that's who you are.
Marc:I mean, despite what anyone may think or whatever I may think of you sitting in my garage, these are sort of rarefied air that you're breathing and that, you know, the type of reaction you have to have and how you handle these things.
Marc:It has to be very calculated and very political.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And probably, I probably made a lot of mistakes by not being as calculated or political earlier on when they did happen.
Guest:That was probably my biggest mistake is that I just said, oh, it'll just go away.
Guest:Because I didn't think of myself the way people go, dude, this guy's like, I don't, I'm not the guy that thinks I'm Madison Square Garden center of everything.
Guest:The second my foot steps off that stage, I feel like a regular normal guy.
Guest:I still feel like the same kid in high school that just wanted to like be in Star Wars for the rest of my life.
Guest:There should have been more people around me, maybe even, or, you know, like yourself, who would say, you should speak to this.
Guest:Hire a publicist who can help you to go to the right sources so that people understand really what you're about.
Guest:They may still hate your comedy.
Guest:They still may go like, that guy's not funny.
Guest:He sucks.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:But at least they'll understand and hear my perspective on it.
Guest:Know that...
Guest:I don't I don't admire or look upon people that hack or take jokes in any positive way.
Guest:I don't run in those circles.
Guest:And I certainly don't want to be affiliated with that.
Guest:And I take a lot of pride in my original material.
Marc:Well, to be honest, I don't I didn't find here that you I think you thought I thought you were worse than you were.
Guest:I think that you thought I had a preconceived notion.
Guest:But I had a preconceived notion about you and despite listening to your show and enjoying your show, regardless of like, because I remember meeting you and I thought that you were kind of rude and I thought that you were not very approachable.
Guest:That's exactly the same feeling I had about you.
Guest:But I didn't, you know, look, I didn't know that maybe you were, you know, you brought up alcohol.
Guest:Maybe you were dealing with demons.
Guest:Maybe you had some, you know, things going on in your life that made you less susceptible to being open to people other than yourself.
Marc:Yeah, but you described yourself as being exactly that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I came to you because I wanted to sit and really understand, Mark.
Guest:Was I right about that guy?
Guest:And I know this is just like a sliver of getting to know somebody.
Marc:But you're the same guy.
Marc:You're the guy that wouldn't hang around.
Marc:You're the guy that walked out early.
Marc:You're the guy that intimidates people because of your energy.
Marc:But do you understand a little more why now?
Marc:Well, no, but I understand that we might have similar personalities at the core of this fear, but it was fear.
Marc:Yeah, but at that time, well, I guess that it's fear in my in my sense, too.
Marc:But like I you know, I didn't have you pigeonholed in any way.
Marc:I really didn't.
Marc:I mean, I understood what you did from your materials.
Guest:You put me in a place and I put you in a place psychologically.
Guest:And then the people that know you and respect you, you would go and you would say, I don't like him.
Guest:And here's why.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:They respect you and they go with you.
Marc:The only thing negative I ever said about you, ever, when anyone brings you up, is that like, I'd say, that guy doesn't really bother me.
Marc:I don't know why everyone's angry at him.
Marc:He doesn't really bother me.
Guest:He's an empty vessel full of fuel.
Guest:And people would come to me and say, hey, do you ever bump into Mark?
Guest:And I go, that guy is like an ominous demon.
Guest:And I would say dark things about you.
Guest:But the goal for me, not just today, but for the past several years, is like,
Guest:Let me get to know and meet some of these people that there's no reason to have any kind of weird animosity or whatever it is that lingers between or maybe things that I did or that I perpetuated or you did.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's figure it out and be able to go, okay, you know what?
Guest:We're just guys trying to get laughs, man.
Guest:At the center of it, it's like just trying to live an honest life, make a few bucks, keep your family healthy and happy.
Right.
Guest:so are we both saying we're overcoming our fears and that perhaps there's uh i think there's a fucking buddy movie with you and i in it like you know our own midnight run i don't like to live with fear in my heart i get very fearful like most people too you go oh that you know you you ruminate and you go oh is this guy what's going to happen when i finally sit with him and yeah i could have avoided and bill's like dude you should do the show i'm like i'm a fan of the show that's a great that's a great sign burris said i should do it
Guest:I'm a little intimidated by Mark from how I viewed him years ago.
Guest:Fuck it.
Guest:I'm just going to go sit here and be myself.
Guest:And you'll either like me or not.
Guest:And by the end, your fans or whoever chime in will still have a perspective based on this conversation.
Guest:half of them be like you know he wasn't such a bad guy the other half will be like you pussied out you didn't go hard enough on him patrice o'neill you can't fuck with the truth he said it to me in 1994 at the back of nick's comedy stop and i've never forgotten it and i just try to be that no matter what no i i i feel i feel good about what we've done here you do yeah you yeah
Marc:So here is half of what would have been a whole interview with Gallagher.
Marc:Now, we fast forward to where we are now, and you've got this reputation of being racist and a homophobe.
Marc:You know, there are jokes you do that are a little vicious.
Guest:They are not.
Guest:I've watched these Comedy Central roasts, and I don't say anything.
Marc:Well, a roast is a context.
Marc:There is a context to that.
Guest:A context.
Guest:And what's my problem?
Guest:There's no context in a comedy show?
Marc:No, there is a context, but I'm just saying that when you attack gay people or you attack— Attack?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't attack them.
Marc:You make fun of them in a very aggressive way.
Guest:Okay, let's say I tell a joke about a white middle-class man.
Guest:Does anybody say, why do I not like white middle-class men?
Marc:Well, I think that's a false— Why?
Marc:Because it is, because—
Guest:That's one area of our society is sensitive and can't take a joke.
Guest:And what am I making jokes about?
Guest:I'm making jokes about people who don't complain.
Marc:Well, tell me some of your jokes about homosexuals.
Marc:Just out of curiosity.
Guest:I don't have any jokes about homosexuals, but I might tell a joke.
Guest:I haven't written any.
Guest:I tell jokes somebody else wrote.
Marc:What are they?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:What are my really good homosexual jokes?
Guest:What does Siegfried have in common with the tiger?
Guest:They both know what Roy tastes like.
Guest:Why don't lesbians lose weight?
Guest:You can't put Jenny Craig in your mouth with Mary Kay on your face.
Guest:I mean, they're jokes.
Marc:But how do you feel about it?
Guest:It's a nightclub.
Marc:I understand what you're saying.
Marc:It's a nightclub for your particular audience.
Marc:My audience?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:If you were to do that here in Portland in a particular audience now or in Seattle, just out of curiosity.
Marc:I'm not attacking you.
Guest:Now, remember, I did work in Portland recently.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who came out?
Guest:All my fans.
Marc:It's a nightclub.
Guest:It's your fans, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay, so it's specific.
Guest:It has nothing to do with what their opinion is about homosexuals.
Marc:You sure?
Marc:You don't think you're feeding a fire of intolerance at all?
Marc:I mean, I'm just asking.
Guest:By repeating a joke I heard on the street.
Marc:Well, I mean, you've got to take responsibility.
Marc:You're saying it.
Marc:I mean, I understand it's a street joke, but some of those are pretty awful, too.
Marc:I'm just saying that you're pigeonholing a group.
Guest:How could you... Why make fun of them?
Marc:Why make fun of them in that way?
Marc:Why minimize them and their way of life?
Guest:Minimize?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Can I pick on Arabs?
Marc:Can you?
Marc:Can I?
Marc:Where are you drawing the line?
Marc:Where does it come from?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:What is your incentive?
Guest:They're the enemy.
Guest:I've got to do a pass out.
Guest:All Arabs are the enemy.
Guest:For some reason, I've got to be at the airport two hours early.
Marc:That's because some specific people of Arab descent did something awful.
Guest:Well, are there just some homosexuals that can't take a joke?
Marc:Well, no, I'm just saying that to generalize.
Marc:Here's what the problem is.
Marc:It's about tolerance.
Guest:There'll be a homosexual comedian who will stand on stage and talk about straight people all night long.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I've only heard homosexual comedians talk about their gayness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, isn't that the same as... But isn't that empowering?
Marc:And if you come up there and say these facts... And I can't talk about my straightness?
Marc:You can.
Marc:But do you have to make fun of homosexuals in order to do that?
Guest:Here's what comedy is.
Guest:It's a reversal.
Guest:Why did they always give the funny line to the kid in a sitcom?
Guest:Tell me.
Guest:Because it's not right that the kid is smarter than the parents.
Guest:It's wrong.
Guest:It's a reversal.
Guest:So having a female spirit in a male body or a male spirit in a female body is a reversal.
Guest:It's God's joke.
Marc:Okay, well, I understand that you believe in God.
Marc:Do you believe in God?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay, I didn't think so.
Marc:Now, let me say something else.
Guest:Look, I'm a comic.
Guest:I don't believe in anything.
Marc:I know that.
Guest:If you tell me you care about something, I'm going to smash it.
Marc:You're going to smash me?
Guest:I'm going to teach you that it's not as important as you think.
Guest:And you should laugh about it.
Marc:Okay, I understand that.
Marc:But my question is that when you isolate Arabs or you isolate homosexuals, your personal feeling about that, you don't care.
Marc:Do you have anything against gay people?
Guest:If people didn't laugh, I wouldn't say it.
Marc:But do you have anything against gay people?
Marc:Now you want to blame me?
Marc:Do you have anything against gay people?
Marc:You're going to blame me.
Marc:Do you have anything against... No.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:Do you have anything against Arabs?
Guest:How can you be in show business enough?
Marc:I'm just asking you.
Marc:Do you have anything against Arabs in a general way?
Marc:I understand gays better than I do Arabs.
Marc:Okay, but I mean... I don't really know anything about... Because you're being associated with a type of right-wing thinking that is destructive.
Marc:I?
Marc:Me?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where'd you get your information for this interview?
Marc:I just read a couple articles.
Marc:There's no information.
Marc:What, do you believe it?
Marc:I'm asking you.
Marc:I'm a comic!
Marc:Okay, but see, I think that you are a businessman, and if anything, politically, you're probably more libertarian than anything else.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:You just want to make money?
Guest:No, I don't even care about that.
Guest:I have two stents in my heart.
Guest:I could die during this interview.
Marc:That would be spectacular.
Marc:It would.
Marc:That would be a great interview.
Marc:It would.
Marc:I would leave it running when the paramedics come.
Guest:It would last about half an hour.
Marc:But do you, so basically you're just playing for your audience.
Guest:No, I am telling them things they'll laugh at and they enjoy it.
Marc:What if it hurts people's feelings?
Marc:And what if people see it as isolating and vicious?
Guest:Isolating and vicious?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:If you isolate a group of people and say you're all this, you're all that, it gets construed as racism or sexism or anything else.
Guest:What about Lisa Lampanelli?
Marc:What about her?
Marc:She's an angry woman who talks from her own point of view.
Guest:About black people.
Marc:That she has sex with.
Marc:Are you having sex with gay men?
Guest:Who knows she has sex with these guys?
Marc:I do.
Marc:I met her when she started.
Marc:That's all she talked about was fucking black guys.
Guest:If it's the truth, you're allowed to say the N word.
Marc:I think to a certain degree, yeah.
Guest:I don't say the N word.
Guest:I don't do any black jokes.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Okay, well, that's very big of you.
Marc:Now, why don't you?
Marc:Why don't you repeat those three jokes?
Guest:There's no blacks in my audience.
Marc:So you think it would be rude?
Guest:Not one.
Guest:No.
Guest:Do you think there are homosexuals in your audience?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Did they come up to you and thank you afterwards?
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:What did they say to you?
Guest:They either tell me a better joke than I told, and they laugh about it.
Guest:I work biker conventions.
Marc:Well, I'm sure you do.
Guest:Don't you think that there's lesbians in leather riding bikes?
Guest:Let me tell you this.
Marc:I'm not doubting you.
Guest:I never see a guy on the back of a bike that a woman is driving.
Guest:There are sexual roles in America, and when you break them, it's funny.
Marc:I know, but all I'm questioning is your sensitivity to some of the flack you've gotten recently.
Guest:I'm not sensitive.
Guest:I think they're all idiots.
Marc:Everybody.
Marc:I think you think everyone's an idiot, right?
Marc:For the most part.
Guest:If they're missing the point.
Guest:I'm a comedian.
Guest:I'm not running for political office.
Marc:I know, but you're speaking out loud to a group of people.
Marc:Who are drinking!
Marc:But if you say all those people that aren't here, those people that are sensitive and trying to find their way in the world, they're all fucking idiots.
Guest:What is the use of humor?
Marc:What is the use of humor in our society?
Marc:To disarm and educate.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:To release tension and aggression.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:If I say something about a topic that people burst into laughter about, I'm going to be the doctor and I'm going to tell you that you have a pain there, you have an irritation, you have an inflammation, you have a problem.
Guest:So the fact that the country laughs at lesbian jokes means they have a problem with
Marc:But to displace the humor, to attack a group of people that is already... You must be really irritated that the House is now Republican.
Guest:Can you explain this backlash?
Marc:Sure I can.
Guest:Over the health?
Marc:Yeah, but it's a misinterpretation of the health plan.
Marc:Blah, blah, blah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:LA and New York has never been able to understand the middle of this country.
Marc:Wait a minute.
Marc:I understand it.
Marc:Of course I do.
Marc:You do not.
Marc:Of course I do.
Guest:Well, you better have some lesbian jokes.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:I don't need lesbian jokes.
Ha ha!
Marc:I'm a free thinker.
Marc:I don't need I don't need I don't need street jokes either.
Marc:You know, I mean a free thinker is different.
Marc:I'm a free thinker.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:It's a nightclub.
Marc:I understand the context.
Guest:It's not therapy.
Marc:Yes, it is therapy on some level.
Guest:Not for you.
Marc:No, but if you just said to me that your job is to release aggression and disarm prejudice.
Marc:Of the audience.
Marc:You don't care about the audience.
Marc:Then you're a therapist.
Marc:Of course I care about the audience.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:Of course I do.
Guest:Do you change it when you're in Oklahoma from when you're in Portland?
Marc:Why would I?
Marc:Because they're different people.
Marc:Are people different?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Are people really different?
Guest:I'll tell you where you can't tell a lesbian.
Marc:Are people different?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're saying that the wiring of people, someone who understands DNA, you're going to tell me that people are different.
Guest:Well, you can't tell a lesbian joke in Boston, Minneapolis, Portland, and Seattle.
Why?
Guest:Because they'll boo you.
Marc:Because why?
Guest:Their politics is different.
Marc:Their politics or their sensitivity to people who are a specific group of people that are being made fun of at the brunt of a joke to release the aggression of narrow-minded people as some sort of form of entertainment is offensive to them.
Marc:That's why.
Marc:So my question is, if by releasing aggression in an audience is by saying, like, the Arabs stink, they're all evil, or gays are fucked, and that releases aggression, how is it not just reaffirming fucking prejudice and intolerance in that group of people?
Guest:You think I have the power, by telling a joke, to rally people... To laugh.
Marc:Around... To laugh.
Marc:You rally people to laugh at what?
Marc:Because they identify with your prejudice.
Marc:That's why they're laughing.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:I hate fags, too.
Marc:Is that releasing aggression in a healthy way?
Marc:Hate.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:There's not hate involved here.
Guest:We're telling jokes.
Marc:Oh, there's a lot of hate and jokes.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:You've been doing this too long.
Marc:You're an angry man.
Marc:You understand.
Guest:I'm not angry.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You're a guy that smashes things.
Guest:Do you think I'm mad every night?
Marc:No.
Marc:I'm not saying you're mad.
Marc:I'm saying it generally.
Guest:Do you think I'm mad regularly?
Guest:Friday night, 8 o'clock.
Guest:Saturday night, 8 o'clock.
Marc:No, I'm saying maybe Saturday morning.
Guest:Maybe there's a little acting in this.
Guest:No, I'm not denying your act is not filled with hate, but I'm saying that just the fact that you feel... I tell five lesbian jokes, and you went and found an article written about me.
Guest:I'm just asking you a question.
Guest:And decided that not only have you put me in the pigeonhole of being a guy that smashes... I'm not pigeonholing you.
Guest:I'm just asking you a question.
Guest:No, you're not.
Marc:Of course I am.
Guest:You are working your politics.
Guest:I am not.
Guest:What's my politics?
Guest:Your politics is left wing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You're most at home in Boston, Minneapolis, Seattle.
Marc:Boston is not left wing.
Marc:Oh, it is too.
Marc:But I don't talk about politics on stage as much as I used to.
Guest:Here's Boston's problem.
Marc:But what I'm saying to you is I'm a comedian and I will push the envelope and I understand what you're saying.
Marc:But there's there's a difference between releasing aggression and making people look at something differently.
Guest:Why do you think I tell a really bad?
Guest:I told you all the jokes I tell I heard.
Marc:Well, I know.
Marc:So that that just means that you're society I'm reflecting.
Marc:Yeah, but you're not even using your own material to victimize these groups of people.
Guest:Well, I don't tell them all the time either.
Guest:Somebody's seen one of my shows, and out of 200 jokes, they've chosen five lesbian jokes or gay jokes to focus on.
Marc:The only reason, I'm not concerned with, I don't have a political agenda here.
Marc:I'm just saying that culturally you've got a reputation.
Guest:So you read a couple of articles before this interview and decided whoever wrote them was writer than me.
Marc:I just ask you the jokes and you address the jokes.
Marc:I put you in the context of the history of comedy.
Marc:You were a profound presence on the comedy scene.
Marc:I have 14 one-hour shows.
Guest:I must have written some original.
Marc:I'm not saying you didn't write original material.
Marc:I'm just asking where you're coming from.
Marc:I was just asking where you're coming from, that's all.
Marc:I respect you as a comedian.
Guest:Do you see any lesbian jokes in my 14 one-hour shows?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:But what happened?
Guest:One night, I told some I heard on the street, everybody's up in arms over it.
Marc:No, no, but why the shift?
Guest:It's not a shift.
Guest:It's only five jokes.
Guest:I do a two-hour, two and a half, sometimes three hours.
Guest:I get on at eight, I'm off at 11.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Everybody focuses on one thing.
Marc:No, no, I'll focus on all of it.
Guest:I'm the problem.
Guest:Do you think when I'm dead, gays will finally have an opportunity in America?
Guest:Have I really been holding them down?
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:You want me to tell you what the gays did?
Marc:No, no, no, wait a minute.
Marc:You don't hold gays down.
Guest:Well, then what's your problem with me?
Marc:No, I don't have any problem with you.
Marc:I'm just saying that you reaffirm prejudice by making fun of them.
Guest:Okay, can we tell a Jew joke that they don't want to pay?
Marc:Why?
Marc:It's not true.
Guest:It's not true.
Guest:Why do people laugh?
Marc:Because it's a stereotype that's been established.
Marc:Most people that you laugh at those jokes don't even have a Jew in their life.
Marc:So we can't do any jokes based on stereotypes.
Marc:I didn't say you can do whatever you want.
Marc:You can do whatever you want.
Guest:Black comedians only talk about the difference between blacks and whites.
Marc:Well, there are some stereotypes.
Marc:Look, I am a person that thinks that some parts of stereotypes are obviously true.
Guest:The entire act.
Guest:is picking on white people that they don't do it.
Marc:Or talking about black community stuff.
Marc:And I understand that there are stereotypes that fit.
Guest:And fat people only talk about fat.
Guest:There's this midget comic that only does midget jokes.
Guest:I watched his whole act one night.
Guest:Well, what else is he going to do?
Guest:That's his wife.
Guest:No, he could be generally funny.
Guest:But he's getting laughed.
Guest:But by your context, if he's getting laughed... Yeah, change the subject.
Guest:We're bored.
Guest:Are they if they're still laughing?
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:There's no dynamics.
Guest:Most comedians are terrible.
Guest:They should listen to me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I will hear you out.
Guest:And I help them when I can.
Guest:What is your problem with most comedians?
Guest:Well, like I just said, their show has no dynamics, and it's not a show based on their knowledge of the audience.
Guest:It's a show about them.
Guest:And comedy is not therapy.
Guest:Just because it's a choice.
Marc:Wait a minute, but if you're talking about a show about them, if you're saying that a person that talks about themselves on stage is not a comedian, then you're dismissing a great many great comics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, they did it wrong.
Marc:No, they didn't do it wrong.
Guest:Okay, you walk into a doctor's office and he talks about his problems instead of... Well, that's an old joke.
Marc:If a comedian talks about himself, and that is funny, if a comedian is a storyteller... See, by your rubric, you're dismissing... He can't work a state fair.
Marc:Who the fuck wants to work a state fair, necessarily?
Guest:Everybody.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in order to work a state fair, you have to take the Gallagher class.
Guest:You have to work faster and more general.
Guest:There are families out there, and they're not interested in your long, subtle stories.
Marc:Okay, that's fine.
Marc:That's the state fair circuit.
Marc:But the comedy club circuit, the cabaret circuit, can indulge a different... Why can't you just see it as all being part of show business?
Marc:Why are you angry?
Guest:Because there's no show involved.
Guest:There are a bunch of slovenly... They hunch over.
Guest:They turn their back on the audience.
Guest:They take a drink of water.
Guest:That's their style.
Guest:It's show business.
Guest:Why are you drawing lines?
Guest:Why are you taking the other side of everything I say?
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm just saying that.
Guest:You are.
Guest:I'm almost.
Guest:Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything about what you're asking me about?
Guest:I'm just telling.
Marc:I'm done.
Marc:You're done?
I'm done.
You're just arguing.
Marc:It's Howard Stern and.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:I was just having a conversation.
Marc:No, you're not.
Marc:I have more respect for comedy.
Guest:You're trying to.
Marc:I am not.
Guest:Yes, you are.
Guest:You're just arguing with me.
Guest:I have 30 years of experience.
Marc:Well, then tell me about comedy.
Marc:I just think that show business is show business.
Marc:Well, then just why don't you do the interview and tell people your opinion?
Marc:We were having a good conversation.
Marc:Oh, come on, Gallagher.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well.
Marc:That didn't.
Marc:Well, maybe it really went well.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm certainly not gonna chase after him.
Marc:I got Michael Ian Black on the show today.
Guest:Do you get emails about the state still?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Is that you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's me.
Guest:That was hilarious.
Guest:Did your phone just call mine?
Guest:I don't see how that's possible.
Guest:No, I don't think so either.
Guest:Oh, it's Jay.
Guest:I got a Twitter that I think you and I are both mentioned on.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And I think that's probably why yours went.
Guest:Oh, maybe.
Guest:Usually it's just— I just got this phone, so I don't really know how it works.
Guest:What kind of phone is it?
Guest:Oh, from Jake Fogelnest, who you probably follow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it says, I love you both.
Guest:I'm here for you guys if this needs to go to mediation.
Guest:Why do people expect that?
Guest:I thought the last time we were— Well, I just tweeted that said— No, I know.
Marc:Passive aggression.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I mean, I thought that the last time we did this, that we covered most of the negative things and we decided that it was all cool.
Marc:And then after that, I hung out with you in Aspen with your wife, Martha, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I've always liked her.
Marc:She's always been very pleasant.
Marc:if not wary of me she is but she she is pleasant but wary but that's a good descriptor of her in general not just with you right but i thought she was being protective of you and i thought well that's cute i mean and then you know and then in my mind it's like it must be really difficult to be with him because you probably have to take that posture a lot but then it turned out i was really wrong and you guys were both very pleasant i think i hope we were i try to be i think i think i think like you i have matured and i'm trying to be more pleasant in my dealings with people
Marc:Well, I think that in terms of my mistake with you was that I thought that I took you at face value for the character that you played on stage.
Marc:And I assumed that you were that guy.
Marc:Smug asshole.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because there was no way for me to know different.
Guest:Other than just say, hi, how are you?
Guest:It would be nice to talk to you the way you talked to John Panette.
Guest:Let's have dinner.
Guest:You think I should have done that?
Guest:No, you shouldn't.
Guest:You shouldn't necessarily have.
Guest:But to make that assumption that the guy you see on stage is the guy you see on stage.
Marc:Let's be honest.
Marc:Let's just cut to the bullshit right now.
Marc:All right, you know, this is all well and good.
Marc:I'm willing to take some hits.
Guest:I didn't, I haven't even unleashed my quiver of arrows.
Marc:No, I know, but we're not doing that, right?
Marc:This is a new you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You were a smug asshole at one time.
Marc:It wasn't just a stage thing.
Marc:Maybe it was a protective social element.
Marc:Wait, I'm not even being passive aggressive.
Marc:No, you're just being aggressive.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm just asking.
Marc:When we were younger and I was a defensive, hostile, sweaty Jew.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you were coming to Luna doing your thing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That there was a time that perhaps I was not the only one that would have said that.
Guest:Is there a possible alternate explanation in your mind for what you were perceiving as smug asshole-ish?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Frightened.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Shy.
Marc:Very good.
Marc:In over his head.
Marc:Yes, possibly.
Marc:And a little bit of smugness.
Guest:The smug thing has...
Marc:followed me around oh so see like no you're not the only one because I'm not the kind of guy I'm not going to bring other people in the conversation I'm not going to say people don't like you but when I've had this conversation I'm not going to say that other people don't like you but no no not but because when I say when people ask me do you really have a problem with him and I say well I always thought he was sort of a smug asshole and then I realized it was his character and they're like oh my god I thought that too but he is a nice guy so there's no ganging up here
Marc:Go ahead.
Marc:What?
Guest:What?
Guest:I mean, what do you... Yeah.
Guest:I think in your head right now... You can't cover your face.
Guest:I think in your head right now you're being gracious on a certain level?
Guest:Is that what's going on in your head?
Guest:Like you're being kind?
Guest:No.
Guest:Because what I'm hearing is whenever I talk to people about you, I say he's a smug asshole or I thought he was a smug asshole and then other people say, yes, I thought so too.
Guest:So what I'm hearing is the whole world thinks I'm a smug asshole.
Guest:The people in my community, not necessarily people out there seeing me on stage.
Guest:I hate to be that guy.
Marc:No, everybody says that they are surprised.
Marc:What I'm saying is that your character was so convincing, and because of the fact that you were slightly detached, maybe shy offstage, people did not have a personal engagement with you other than your closest friends.
Marc:I'm not attacking you at all.
Guest:I have always been very self-conscious.
Guest:pretty shy.
Guest:I wouldn't say very shy.
Guest:And I think compensated for that on stage by playing this kind of overconfident, acerbic dickhead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're very good at it.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Is it called snarky?
Marc:Or would you say you're snarky?
Guest:The first time I heard that word was after I started doing those VH1 things.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Wasn't that the idea?
Marc:Wasn't everyone snarky on those?
Marc:No.
Marc:Didn't those VH1 things define snarky to some degree for some people?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, honestly, I'd never heard the word before, so I certainly wasn't trying to be snarky.
Guest:I was just trying to be funny.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think that tone, that character is a popular comedic archetype.
Marc:I think the slightly pompous, kind of smart... Yeah, I mean, it works.
Marc:It works on television.
Marc:It works on stage.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Why do you always assume that I'm being passive-aggressive?
Guest:Because I'm just bringing 20 years of baggage that I have with you to this interview, and I'm trying not to, and I'm trying to take you at face value.
Marc:Well, do you want to address some stuff?
Guest:It's your interview.
Guest:It's your interview.
Marc:No, but I'm interactive.
Guest:I adapt.
Guest:Because this is what I do.
Guest:Because when I listen to your podcast, which, as you know, I do,
Guest:And I hear you say something like to whomever, you know, that's a character that works well on stage or on TV.
Guest:The subtext of that is it's bullshit.
Guest:I don't do that.
Guest:I'm honest.
Guest:I'm whatever.
Guest:I lay it off.
Marc:That is your baggage.
Guest:I don't know that it is that.
Guest:I don't know that it is.
Marc:No, that is absolutely your baggage.
Marc:I, if anything, if you listen to this show, you know that my respect and acceptance and my own fucking humbling in this world has brought me back to a place from when I was younger.
Marc:And I appreciate all elements of comedy.
Marc:I respect the fact that you put out a record.
Marc:I looked at your schedule today.
Marc:I'm like, holy fuck, he's really doing it.
Marc:I didn't say like that guy.
Marc:I didn't say that.
Marc:Now, I may have said that at another time, but that is not who I am right now.
Guest:What would that have been?
Guest:That guy.
Guest:What would that have meant?
Guest:Like, what's the subtext in that?
Guest:In that guy.
Guest:Like, oh, he's going out on the road doing shows.
Guest:That guy.
Marc:Well, no, but there was a time where I had a very narrow perception of what I thought stand-up was, and that's what you're responding to.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But I don't think there's any indication of that now.
Marc:I think I'm fairly gracious with people, and I don't really attack people.
Marc:No.
Marc:And, uh, and, and, you know, it took a long time for me.
Marc:I think we trace most of our problems back to the fact that I refuse to accept that you guys could be standups.
Marc:And, and that was really the core of it is that I saw you guys as successful television guys that came in from your sketch group.
Marc:And then you came into our world and,
Marc:And then you got on stage and you were doing our thing without doing it the way that I did it.
Marc:So I said, who the fuck are these improv guys with their toys?
Marc:But that's gone.
Marc:I don't have that anymore.
Marc:I don't have it anymore.
Marc:And you are really actually the only one out of all of you
Marc:that I think was capable of doing stand-up and that your character was solid enough for you to hold it on stage.
Marc:And you're really the only one that does, I think, actual stand-up when you go out.
Guest:I'm the only one who really started pursuing stand-up in the way that I think most people think of when they think of stand-up.
Guest:And that's only fairly recently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's not to take anything away from Michael, Showalter, but I think there's part of Michael that he'd like to do like half a lecture, then he'd like to draw some pictures and hold them up, and then tell a couple stories.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, he's doing a different thing.
Guest:He's doing a more sort of, performance is the wrong word, but theatrical in a way, thing.
Guest:And incidentally, he's great at it.
Guest:He's very, very funny.
Guest:And David, of course, is Orson Welles.
Guest:And David Lane has become Orson Welles, yes.
Right.
Guest:Um, but I only started doing standup, as I said, in the past few years, like standup standup.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, and, and for me, it was a very conscious choice.
Guest:And, and the choice was, or the thought process was, this is something you've always admired and kind of wanted to do, but never really had the balls to do a full bore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Give it a try.
Guest:Are we good?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Why do you keep doing that?
Marc:Every time we get together, I walk away feeling like we're good now, finally.
Guest:And then you do that.
Guest:How come?
Guest:Maybe because I'm holding onto something that I can't let go.
Guest:What?
Guest:I just, I don't know.
Guest:You don't trust me.
Guest:I know what it is.
Guest:You just don't trust me.
Guest:You know what it is?
Guest:You more than many other people, maybe all other, no, many other, I won't say all other people, I want your respect.
Guest:And I feel like I got to earn it.
Marc:But you have it.
Marc:I mean, Jesus Christ, we were just in Aspen.
Marc:And I thought after we talked and we had a good time on stage and we got laughs doing that bullshit that we always do.
Marc:And then we sat down in the lodge and I talked with you and your wife.
Marc:We had a lovely thing.
Marc:And I'm like, great, finally.
Marc:And then you come back in here, then you're nervous, and then it goes pretty well.
Marc:And then at the end of all this, I say, are we good?
Marc:And you're like, I don't know.
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:I think when you die, I'll feel good.
What is it?
Marc:So that's on you.
Marc:That's on you.
Marc:So now I want everyone to know that it's now in Michael's court.
Marc:He is holding on to this fight.
Marc:I think what he tried to say there was a nice thing, but he far transcended any passive aggression, any attack.
Marc:When you're dead, I will feel good because he'll have closure and he won't have to worry about it anymore.
Guest:I need the closure.
Marc:Yeah, you definitely have a hell of an ego.
Marc:Well, it was good talking to you.
Marc:You too, Mark.
Marc:You too, Mark.
Thank you.