Episode 733 - Werner Herzog / Godfrey

Episode 733 • Released August 15, 2016 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuckineers?

00:00:14Marc:What the fuckericans?

00:00:15Marc:What the fucktuckians?

00:00:17Marc:What the fuckanoids?

00:00:19Marc:I don't know where that one came from.

00:00:20Marc:What's happening?

00:00:21Marc:I'm Mark.

00:00:22Marc:This is my show.

00:00:22Marc:Welcome to the show.

00:00:24Marc:It's WTF.

00:00:25Marc:It's a podcast.

00:00:26Marc:I will welcome new people as I see fit here at the beginning of the show.

00:00:30Marc:I hope you're doing alright.

00:00:32Marc:Today on the show, I'm going to chat with, going to have a slightly contentious but fun ball-busting chat with my old buddy Godfrey.

00:00:41Marc:Godfrey has a Showtime special that is now available on demand at Showtime.

00:00:48Marc:His special, it's called Regular Black.

00:00:51Marc:It's on Showtime, but you can watch it, of course, anytime on Showtime on demand.

00:00:57Marc:Later in the show, Werner Herzog,

00:01:01Marc:The film director, documentary director, writer, actor, but a force of nature will be on the show for a bit.

00:01:10Marc:We're going to talk about his new film, his new documentary, which was I found to be frightening, but also very life embracing.

00:01:19Marc:But I tend to lean towards the frightening.

00:01:21Marc:It's called Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World.

00:01:24Marc:It's in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th.

00:01:28Marc:It was great to talk to him.

00:01:30Marc:I was nervous because he is a very specific and defined presence and an astoundingly prolific artist.

00:01:42Marc:And I enjoyed having him here in the garage.

00:01:46Marc:And hopefully you will enjoy our conversation.

00:01:49Marc:Also, tickets going fast.

00:01:52Marc:And I'm happy to say that because I was I'm always nervous about how things will go.

00:01:57Marc:But the Carnegie Hall presale went very well.

00:02:00Marc:And now tickets are on sale in a larger way.

00:02:04Marc:I don't know what that means.

00:02:05Marc:More outlets, more promotion.

00:02:08Marc:So congratulations to those who got tickets for my November 4th show at Carnegie Hall in New York City.

00:02:15Marc:During the pre-sale, because a lot of those seats went very quickly.

00:02:19Marc:And now they're open to the general public in a broader way.

00:02:22Marc:They're on sale full on.

00:02:26Marc:So you can go to nycomedyfestival.com, nycomedyfestival.com.

00:02:31Marc:Find my little mug, my little face.

00:02:33Marc:Click on it and get tickets to my November 4th Carnegie Hall show.

00:02:37Marc:I'm very excited about it.

00:02:38Marc:My buddy Nate Bargetze is going to do the opening slot.

00:02:42Marc:I'm thrilled.

00:02:43Marc:But there's part of me that thinks...

00:02:45Marc:Maybe that should be it.

00:02:47Marc:Maybe that should be the last thing.

00:02:49Marc:Carnegie Hall and then like, I'm good.

00:02:52Marc:I'm going to live on an island off the coast of Seattle now in a small house with several cats who are unafraid of coyotes.

00:03:00Marc:But I don't know.

00:03:01Marc:There are wolves up there anyway.

00:03:03Marc:Carnegie Hall, tickets on sale, nycomedyfestival.com.

00:03:08Marc:So a couple of things.

00:03:09Marc:I'm reading this book, and I don't lock into books that often in a way that I'm like, holy shit, this is the best book I've read in a long time.

00:03:18Marc:It's a nonfiction book.

00:03:20Marc:I've been sitting around in a pile of books I had for a long time.

00:03:24Marc:I get a lot of shit, folks.

00:03:26Marc:People send me a lot of stuff.

00:03:27Marc:Publishers send me stuff.

00:03:28Marc:So I get a radio station almost.

00:03:30Marc:I just get tons of stuff.

00:03:31Marc:I had to get an office to process stuff.

00:03:33Marc:And a lot of stuff moves through.

00:03:34Marc:A lot of stuff moves on.

00:03:36Marc:Some books I donate to the library.

00:03:38Marc:Some records I use to barter for other records.

00:03:41Marc:But this book, it just sat there.

00:03:43Marc:And I'm like, that book is something.

00:03:44Marc:There's something in that book.

00:03:45Marc:I didn't know what was in it, but I held on to it.

00:03:48Marc:It's called Dreamland, The True Tale of America's Opiate Epidemic by a guy named Sam Quinones.

00:03:56Marc:I don't know if I'm saying his name right.

00:03:57Marc:I'm pronouncing it like that.

00:03:58Marc:Q-U-I-N-O-N-E-S.

00:04:01Marc:Quinones, I'm going to say.

00:04:03Marc:I don't know how he pronounces it.

00:04:05Marc:I apologize if that's wrong, Sam.

00:04:07Marc:But I'm going to try to talk to Sam.

00:04:09Marc:But this book is...

00:04:12Marc:Did you read Fast Food Nation?

00:04:15Marc:Fast Food Nation about the fast food industry was an astoundingly compelling journalistic endeavor that changed my life, changed the way I thought about a lot of things.

00:04:26Marc:This book, Dreamland, it does the same thing except for black tar heroin and oxycodone.

00:04:33Marc:It is it moved through several different ways.

00:04:36Marc:trajectories and storylines to sort of give you a historical perspective of the painkiller epidemic that in turn led to the black tar heroin epidemic all the way down to geographical locations, economic realities, pharmaceutical posturing, misinformation.

00:04:57Marc:But it really goes all the way back and all the way through the

00:05:02Marc:the pain management racket that my father was involved with for a time, and into the Mexican heroin, black tar heroin racket, which had a very unique and distinct business structure that was essentially nonviolent.

00:05:19Marc:What's amazing about this book, in a lot of ways, aside from everything, historically and journalistically, is that this is a story of a massive national drug...

00:05:31Marc:industry black you know black tar heroin a a illegal drug industry that has very little violence and that should be compelling it is it's a great book hopefully i'm going to find sam and talk to him i believe he lives down the street but it's blowing my mind pick it up dreamland by sam quinones i hope i hope uh good job sam if you're listening

00:05:58Marc:You know, I have bluster.

00:06:01Marc:I have bravado.

00:06:01Marc:I have a certain amount of cockiness.

00:06:03Marc:I do.

00:06:04Marc:I do.

00:06:04Marc:But I am not a fist fighter.

00:06:07Marc:I am not a puncher.

00:06:08Marc:I am not a punchee.

00:06:10Marc:It's surprising that I have not been a punchee.

00:06:13Marc:I would think that myself seems a guy that would get his ass kicked a couple of times.

00:06:20Marc:So my girlfriend, Sarah, the painter, lives not far from me, and she was having some problems with a neighbor.

00:06:28Marc:Uh, who rented the house next to hers from a woman who owns the house.

00:06:32Marc:And it was a couple, a young couple who had a couple of dogs and these dogs started shitting down in the yard.

00:06:38Marc:And now the way my girlfriend's house is set up that the backyard of that house next to hers is right in basically in front of.

00:06:46Marc:of where her kitchen is so these dogs are just shitting and shitting and shitting and this guy who is renting the house is not cleaning up the shit so there's this waft of horrendous shit smell dog shit smell coming into her fucking house every goddamn day and building so there starts the tension like why don't you clean up after your fucking dogs and he says he will and he doesn't and then it's just it's just grown up shit dude

00:07:09Marc:Now I'm talking to him.

00:07:10Marc:It's like clean up the dog shit.

00:07:11Marc:And then there was an issue of this guy parking his car in front of Sarah's driveway because he can't find other spaces on the street.

00:07:17Marc:And he feels like he deserves to park in front of the house he's renting.

00:07:20Marc:I don't know where he comes from or what his situation is.

00:07:23Marc:And he's always in there, you know, you know, shouting about this and that it is, you know, to his girlfriend.

00:07:28Marc:And it's just one of those escalating neighbor situations where it's like, if you don't find a parking space in front of your house, welcome to the big city, fella.

00:07:37Marc:take a loop loop around find another place grow the fuck up clean up after your pig dogs that's the backstory and i'm hearing about it you know so i i've offered i said look let's go over there and you know just talk to him try to you know reason with this dude about growing the fuck up and learning that you know sometimes you don't get the parking space you want if you have two big fucking dogs you got to clean up their dog shit

00:08:04Marc:that so i get a call yesterday from sarah and she's like come over can you come over now please can you just come over it's i need you and then she hung up like i could hear him yammering and i didn't know so like i i'm i'm worked up but i'm not you know i'm not thinking i'm gonna kick this guy's ass but i'm a little worked up and i drive over it's five minutes away and i drive and i see him he's standing out there in his shorts with no shirt on a little guy with his little sideways haircut and a

00:08:30Marc:you know, half a beard, you know, no shirt and his sandals.

00:08:34Marc:And he's, you know, Sarah's standing there and I just fucking pull up and I do that thing where you just slam on the brakes in the middle of the street, pop open the door, step out.

00:08:42Marc:And I go, what is the problem?

00:08:44Marc:What's the problem here?

00:08:46Marc:And this guy immediately starts backpedaling.

00:08:48Marc:There's no problem.

00:08:49Marc:And I'm like, do we need to call the cops?

00:08:50Marc:Do the cops need to be involved in this problem?

00:08:54Marc:And she's like, he's parked in the driveway.

00:08:56Marc:He's like, I was going to move it.

00:08:58Marc:I was going to move it.

00:08:59Marc:And I wasn't going to leave it here.

00:09:00Marc:And I just came unraveled.

00:09:02Marc:And I wasn't going to fucking hit the guy.

00:09:04Marc:I was like, I right away said, we can call the cops and work this out.

00:09:08Marc:And I'm like, just what is the issue?

00:09:09Marc:And he's like, well, I'm sorry.

00:09:10Marc:And I just says I was going to move it like and then it gets to the point where I think he's going to cry.

00:09:14Marc:And I'm like, oh, my God.

00:09:16Marc:And like, I'm not there.

00:09:17Marc:Never once in my mind did I think I was going to hit him or have a physical altercation.

00:09:22Marc:I just wanted him to understand that he can't behave the way he's behaving.

00:09:27Marc:And he just started spinning and it looked like he was getting going to get getting choked up.

00:09:32Marc:And then I was sort of like, all right, all right, just relax.

00:09:34Marc:Will you just take it easy?

00:09:35Marc:All right.

00:09:36Marc:And, you know, when I got in the car and I found him a parking space and drove off and I was like, what the fuck?

00:09:42Marc:Like, like I not only did I not have any violent intentions, but like I didn't want to have to deal with the guy sobbing.

00:09:50Marc:So apparently he started screaming after I left in the house, like, there are unenlightened people.

00:09:56Marc:Who solves the problem with fighting?

00:09:59Marc:They're animals.

00:10:00Marc:Because Sarah thought, like, well, when he sees who you are, he's going to feel pretty embarrassed.

00:10:05Marc:But not only did that guy not know who I was, which isn't unusual, he thought we were unenlightened animals.

00:10:12Marc:who only knew how to solve things with fighting.

00:10:15Marc:Like, how could you mistake me for a tough guy driving up in my Camry hybrid, getting out of my car, wearing my Iggy and the Stooges T-shirt, you know, in my glasses?

00:10:26Marc:the animals unenlightened animals that's me that's me just a just a a monster a neanderthal in a camry hybrid with my red wing boots on that animal complete fucking complete just a low-life monster

00:10:46Marc:I wanted Sarah and I to put both of our books on his front porch as a gift from the unenlightened.

00:10:54Marc:But we decided against it.

00:10:56Marc:I just hope the guy grows up a little bit.

00:10:58Marc:That was my only intention.

00:11:00Marc:So...

00:11:01Marc:Now we come to Godfrey.

00:11:04Marc:Godfrey and I go way back.

00:11:05Marc:I enjoy him.

00:11:07Marc:It's always funny.

00:11:08Marc:He's one of these people that I like to bust his balls.

00:11:11Marc:He receives it well, and he needs it.

00:11:14Marc:He needs it badly.

00:11:15Marc:So this is me and Godfrey doing what me and Godfrey do.

00:11:18Marc:You can watch his new special, Regular Black, on Showtime.

00:11:22Marc:It's airing here and there, but you can watch it anytime on Showtime On Demand.

00:11:26Marc:So let's do what me and Godfrey do.

00:11:31Marc:You want to get on the fucking mic like a professional or you just want to stand there like an idiot?

00:11:43Marc:How do you want to handle it?

00:11:47Guest:First of all, when you set up the Obama shit and it was in your list, it's right after mine?

00:11:53Guest:Yeah.

00:11:54Guest:I was getting mad heat.

00:11:57Guest:Fucking heat.

00:11:58Guest:That's right.

00:11:59Guest:In the streets, people are like, I heard you on Marin.

00:12:01Guest:One of the best interviews I've ever fucking heard.

00:12:04Guest:I'm not even lying.

00:12:05Guest:No, that's right.

00:12:05Guest:You were right before Obama.

00:12:07Guest:Yeah.

00:12:07Guest:Yeah, because I said you need some more black people on this bitch.

00:12:10Guest:Yeah, and I couldn't tell you.

00:12:11Guest:I probably couldn't tell you.

00:12:12Marc:Oh, no, no, no.

00:12:15Guest:But I said, but why does it have to be the super, super, super, super famous ones?

00:12:20Guest:Get the medium ones.

00:12:22Guest:Yeah, medium black.

00:12:24Guest:Medium black, medium famous.

00:12:27Guest:That's me.

00:12:28Guest:Kind of medium.

00:12:29Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:30Guest:All I need is that one thing that'll take me to the next level.

00:12:34Marc:That's funny.

00:12:34Marc:I forgot.

00:12:35Marc:And I brought it up.

00:12:37Marc:And then your episode, that's what it was.

00:12:39Marc:Your episode got so much fucking hits because everyone who never even heard of the podcast before, they listened to Obama and they're like, what's another one?

00:12:47Marc:What's this one before Obama?

00:12:49Marc:So it all tracked.

00:12:51Marc:Like your episode was huge because of Obama.

00:12:55Guest:Thank Obama.

00:12:57Guest:Fuck that.

00:12:58Guest:It's all right.

00:13:00Guest:I can do him.

00:13:00Guest:I'm glad I'm here.

00:13:02Guest:Yeah, that's pretty good.

00:13:03Guest:This is nice.

00:13:04Guest:I'm glad.

00:13:05Guest:I heard that you need more black people, and it's good.

00:13:09Guest:Yeah, it's pretty good.

00:13:10Guest:It's pretty good, right?

00:13:11Guest:Yeah.

00:13:12Guest:Even you like it.

00:13:13Guest:Yeah, it's good.

00:13:14Guest:I would never do an impersonation in front of you.

00:13:16Guest:Why?

00:13:17Guest:Because you just make that face.

00:13:18Guest:No, I die all the time.

00:13:20Guest:You just go like this.

00:13:21Guest:You go like this.

00:13:22Guest:There you go.

00:13:22Marc:Yeah, that's a good one.

00:13:24Marc:That's good.

00:13:25Marc:Me being polite.

00:13:27Marc:Yeah, I'm not gonna laugh at it, but I'll acknowledge you've done something in front of me.

00:13:33Marc:Oh, good for you.

00:13:34Marc:How's that working out for you?

00:13:41Guest:you're so fucked up that's like walking to an audition room and there's a dude on a series already and he actually and he actually like comes in for that too and he goes hey good luck guys fuck you as he's walking out everyone's laughing and patting him on the back yeah who's next yeah oh fuck you it's the worst or when it's the one black part and all every black dude's in there they go yo fellas keep it up man fuck out of here I don't want you here one black guy the black guy on television the one black guy laughing

00:14:10Guest:You guys all know him.

00:14:13Guest:Fuck.

00:14:14Guest:I'm the only one in an audition that I don't fake the funk, man.

00:14:21Guest:And when a certain guy walks in, I go, ah, come on.

00:14:24Guest:Because he's fake.

00:14:26Guest:Yeah, I don't know.

00:14:26Guest:You got two shows already.

00:14:28Guest:Why are you here?

00:14:29Guest:Everyone else goes, oh, what's up, dude?

00:14:31Guest:Oh, what's up?

00:14:31Guest:What's good, baby?

00:14:32Guest:How you been?

00:14:32Guest:I'm like this.

00:14:33Guest:Everything sucks right now.

00:14:35Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:14:35Guest:Nothing's fucking good.

00:14:36Guest:Why are you here?

00:14:37Guest:Why are you taking all the work?

00:14:38Guest:Why are you taking all the goddamn work?

00:14:40Guest:Yeah.

00:14:40Guest:You know what?

00:14:41Guest:Black actors can actually say, why are you taking all the work?

00:14:44Guest:Because it's not a lot.

00:14:44Guest:Yeah.

00:14:45Guest:I can actually say.

00:14:46Guest:White dudes can't say that shit.

00:14:47Guest:Yeah.

00:14:47Guest:How about spreading it around?

00:14:49Guest:Spread it.

00:14:50Guest:Take a break.

00:14:51Guest:Hey, man.

00:14:51Guest:Hit the bench, buddy.

00:14:53Guest:I got this whole thing.

00:14:54Guest:Steve Harvey hosts everything.

00:14:56Guest:Yeah.

00:14:57Guest:I mean, he really does.

00:14:59Marc:He hosts everything.

00:15:00Marc:I know it's weird, though.

00:15:01Marc:Like you watch him and like, you know, it's not like you're not going like, hey, yeah, there's Steve Harvey.

00:15:06Marc:You know, he's just sort of this thing that's it's like it's like the TV being on.

00:15:11Marc:There's Steve Harvey's involved.

00:15:13Marc:You know what I mean?

00:15:14Marc:Like I saw him, I don't even know what the show was, but he was sitting there talking to a kid.

00:15:20Marc:I'm like, what fucking show is this?

00:15:21Marc:It's called Big Shots.

00:15:22Marc:Yeah.

00:15:23Marc:Hot Little Big Shots.

00:15:25Marc:I actually watched it for a minute, though.

00:15:26Marc:It's like the Art Linkletter shit.

00:15:28Marc:But I watched it without sound.

00:15:30Marc:It must have been on a plane or something.

00:15:32Marc:And I was watching him listen to kids.

00:15:34Marc:He was listening to them because I talk to people and I'm like, it'd be very easy.

00:15:38Marc:Like, oh God, you know, that's not an easy thing to sit there and act interested in a fucking kid.

00:15:44Guest:It's true, little fuckers.

00:15:46Marc:But he was like listening and he was like, you know, the kid felt comfortable.

00:15:49Marc:It's not easy to make kids in front of all those people feel comfortable.

00:15:53Marc:That's true.

00:15:53Marc:And he was really picking his spots, and I was watching it all without sound.

00:15:56Marc:This kid must have been some sort of little Asian kid piano wizard.

00:16:01Marc:That's so redundant to me.

00:16:03Guest:Little Asian kids that can play piano, fuck that.

00:16:06Guest:Like, if you see, they should have a black little kid doing math, have an Asian kid tap dancing, then I'm impressed.

00:16:13Guest:Don't challenge the Asian kids to do anything.

00:16:15Guest:But Asian kids doing concertos, that's old.

00:16:18Guest:They were doing that shit in the 80s.

00:16:19Marc:Yeah, but there's only a few of them in there.

00:16:21Marc:How many are there?

00:16:21Marc:What?

00:16:22Marc:There's a billion.

00:16:23Marc:No, I know of them that can play piano like that.

00:16:25Guest:Okay, out of the billion, at least 100 million.

00:16:30Guest:100 million of fucking asshole parents in me.

00:16:32Guest:On birth.

00:16:34Guest:Dude, they have them playing concertos, but an Asian kid playing concerto is boring.

00:16:39Guest:A black kid playing concerto, more interesting.

00:16:41Guest:Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:16:42Guest:Because they don't think we know what concertos are.

00:16:44Marc:But how many black guys even really tap dens anymore?

00:16:46Marc:Just that one guy.

00:16:47Marc:Well, at auditions.

00:16:48Marc:We're still doing it.

00:16:49Marc:Oh, you mean metaphorically.

00:16:51Marc:Metaphorically.

00:16:51Marc:We've never stopped.

00:16:52Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:16:53Guest:right the auditions oh i'm like oh yeah yeah i'm still doing that shit so what are you doing out here okay i had a gap i had a gap and i said to my girl i said yo i think i should go to la and i airbnb'd for the first time really i never did that before where'd they put you

00:17:16Guest:uh well you choose it yeah i i i'm on beverly yeah by el coyote oh yeah yeah it's and it's this painter dude yeah he and it's this little room it has a bathtub shower whatever whatever i have my cable whatever it's yeah and i have this old school 1920s bed it's like one single bed then you can pop up another bed it's like old school oh the trundle bed the trundle bed yeah

00:17:39Guest:yeah so um it's it's cool it's clean i paid like for like 10 days 700 something wow awesome yeah you know what i mean i have a refrigerator i don't have a stove but now you're in though you're gonna be airbnb and all the fucking time airbnb and my fucking ass off and it's not he doesn't live there he lives next door but that's he has he has a lot of artist friends so many people do that they just have they buy houses to do that

00:18:02Guest:Dude, it's the shit, because these hotels try to fuck you, man.

00:18:07Guest:Like, how much for a dick?

00:18:09Guest:Come on.

00:18:10Guest:You see, let's let you know that I haven't made it yet.

00:18:14Guest:I'm fucking Airbnb and shit.

00:18:16Guest:You didn't have to tell me.

00:18:19Guest:That's why I come here.

00:18:24Guest:That's why I come here.

00:18:25Guest:I come here to get fucked up.

00:18:28Guest:I didn't have to tell you.

00:18:30Guest:I can just look at you and see.

00:18:34Guest:Word out in the street.

00:18:35Guest:There is no word out in the street.

00:18:37Marc:I can tell by the emails.

00:18:39Dude.

00:18:42Guest:I did say that.

00:18:44Guest:I said, dude, thanks a lot with exclamation point.

00:18:48Guest:Can I come back on?

00:18:51Guest:I have no problem begging.

00:18:52Guest:I don't give a shit.

00:18:53Guest:But wait, so you're just hanging out?

00:18:56Guest:No, I have a bunch of meetings.

00:18:58Guest:A bunch of meetings.

00:18:59Guest:Of course, I'm doing a laugh factory and the improv and the comedy store.

00:19:04Guest:But I wanted to come out because I needed to face to face with everybody.

00:19:07Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:08Guest:Face to face with my agents, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:19:11Guest:And I said, I need to call Maren.

00:19:13Guest:And I wanted to come back to this.

00:19:14Guest:I didn't know you didn't do repeats.

00:19:16Marc:We do the short ones.

00:19:17Guest:Which is fine.

00:19:18Guest:I didn't know, though.

00:19:18Marc:But there's only certain guys that I get, you know, that I have a thing where we can talk.

00:19:22Marc:Yeah, me and you are good.

00:19:24Marc:We're funny.

00:19:24Marc:Am I good?

00:19:25Marc:Oh, yeah, no.

00:19:25Marc:People love when we talk.

00:19:26Guest:You act like I asked you to be in a comedy team.

00:19:29Guest:What the fuck?

00:19:31Marc:You and Godfrey are good together.

00:19:34Marc:Like, don't.

00:19:35Marc:I'm so glad I'm doing okay.

00:19:38Marc:Because that'd be someone's shitty idea.

00:19:40Marc:You guys ever think it?

00:19:42Marc:No.

00:19:43Marc:Hell fucking no.

00:19:44Marc:How would that be?

00:19:45Marc:Just two guys laughing at each other, hurting each other's feelings?

00:19:49Guest:That's what I like about it.

00:19:50Guest:You're such a loner.

00:19:51Guest:You don't even hang out with your own people.

00:19:52Marc:Well, that's the thing.

00:19:53Marc:It's like, well, people are like, you don't have any black friends.

00:19:55Marc:I don't have any friends.

00:19:57Guest:One dude I call.

00:19:59Guest:You know, you're the only person that can say, I don't see color.

00:20:02Guest:Yeah.

00:20:02Guest:Because they're not over here.

00:20:03Guest:No one's there.

00:20:04Guest:White, black.

00:20:05Guest:No one's at the house.

00:20:06Guest:Mark Barrett says, I don't see color.

00:20:07Guest:He's not bullshitting you.

00:20:09Guest:He doesn't.

00:20:13Guest:Yo, but I'm saying this, Mark.

00:20:15Guest:Yes.

00:20:16Guest:I don't give a shit.

00:20:17Guest:I'm putting my bid in.

00:20:18Guest:That's how you... I see all these dudes going on other people's podcasts because they got a dude that accepts them.

00:20:24Guest:You're the dude.

00:20:26Guest:You actually let me come over.

00:20:27Guest:You hang out.

00:20:28Guest:You talk.

00:20:29Guest:You let me on your shit.

00:20:31Guest:Yeah.

00:20:32Guest:And everyone gets that.

00:20:33Marc:I don't get that.

00:20:34Guest:Yeah.

00:20:34Marc:You know what I mean?

00:20:35Marc:Yeah.

00:20:35Marc:I'm willing to give you a break.

00:20:37Marc:I'm giving you a big break.

00:20:38Guest:If it has to come from this, so fucking be it.

00:20:41Yeah.

00:20:41Guest:If I have to fly out to LA just to do your shit, I would do that shit.

00:20:47Guest:I will Airbnb for two days to do Marin.

00:20:51Guest:I don't fuck around.

00:20:52Guest:If it's like once a month, whatever the fuck, I'm putting my dib in as your Nubian friend.

00:20:58Guest:I've changed the name.

00:20:59Guest:I'm not black anymore, dog.

00:21:00Guest:No, it's Nubian?

00:21:01Guest:Fuck.

00:21:02Guest:Black.

00:21:02Guest:Let me tell you why.

00:21:03Guest:What's the Kachina doll again?

00:21:04Guest:Kachina's Kokopelli?

00:21:05Guest:Kokopelli and Nubian.

00:21:07Guest:But listen.

00:21:08Marc:Nubian, Kokopelli.

00:21:08Guest:I want to tell you why I want to be Nubian now.

00:21:11Guest:All right.

00:21:11Guest:I'm your Nubian friend.

00:21:12Guest:Let me tell you why.

00:21:13Guest:Yeah.

00:21:13Guest:But that sounds like a story like- It's almost space age.

00:21:16Guest:Yeah, it is.

00:21:17Guest:Why not?

00:21:18Guest:We're in a high-tech fucking era now.

00:21:20Guest:Is this the new hook?

00:21:21Guest:Listen, this is real.

00:21:23Guest:You know how they put the bids up?

00:21:25Guest:First it was colored, Negro, colored, African-American.

00:21:28Guest:Fucking Nubian, let me tell you why.

00:21:30Guest:Because I understand why you'll see black people who are half black or whatever, they'll talk about everything else but being black even though they look it.

00:21:38Guest:They'll go, I'm Swedish, I'm Irish, and you're looking at them like, okay, you're skipping, you're skipping, you're skipping.

00:21:46Guest:But they go, then they'll say black.

00:21:48Guest:But if you look at phonetically, Irish sounds amazing.

00:21:52Guest:Like I'm Irish.

00:21:53Guest:I'm Swedish.

00:21:54Guest:The ish.

00:21:54Guest:It's a sweet word.

00:21:56Guest:Black fucks it all up phonetically.

00:21:57Guest:Black.

00:21:58Guest:It's just a horrible word.

00:22:00Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:22:00Marc:I get it.

00:22:01Marc:I like where you're almost supposed to go like, that's what ruined it.

00:22:04Marc:Exactly.

00:22:05Marc:And check it out.

00:22:06Marc:There you go.

00:22:08Marc:That's what I'm seeing.

00:22:09Guest:That's what I'm seeing.

00:22:10Guest:That's what's pissing me off.

00:22:13Guest:I knew it.

00:22:16Guest:Black.

00:22:17Guest:It's fucking horrible.

00:22:19Guest:No wonder people deny it.

00:22:20Guest:Black.

00:22:21Guest:It's a color you put on a crayon.

00:22:22Guest:Black.

00:22:24Guest:Look at what I look like when I say black.

00:22:26Guest:Black.

00:22:26Guest:It's like I'm vomiting.

00:22:28Guest:Black.

00:22:28Guest:You can spit and say black.

00:22:29Guest:Black.

00:22:30Guest:Now watch me do white.

00:22:33Guest:White.

00:22:34Guest:I smile as soon as I say white.

00:22:36Guest:No wonder.

00:22:37Guest:I keep it.

00:22:38Guest:I'm white.

00:22:39Guest:I'm white.

00:22:40Guest:You're smiling.

00:22:42Guest:You're using your smiling muscles.

00:22:43Guest:Takes 14.

00:22:45Guest:White.

00:22:46Marc:Black.

00:22:46Guest:See how you look?

00:22:48Guest:Black.

00:22:49Marc:Black.

00:22:50Guest:Black.

00:22:51Marc:I never thought about it.

00:22:52Guest:It's almost derogatory.

00:22:53Guest:Black.

00:22:54Marc:So you're going with Nubian?

00:22:55Guest:But what about African-American?

00:22:56Guest:I don't mind African.

00:22:57Guest:I'm really African.

00:22:58Guest:So I say Nigerian specifically so it adds some exotic shit to it.

00:23:02Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:02Guest:I go, I'm Nigerian because it's specific.

00:23:04Guest:I'm Congolese.

00:23:06Guest:I'm Ethiopian.

00:23:07Guest:Congolese.

00:23:07Guest:I like that.

00:23:08Guest:Oh, it's amazing.

00:23:09Guest:But listen.

00:23:09Guest:Heavy place though.

00:23:10Guest:Heavy place.

00:23:11Guest:Yeah.

00:23:11Guest:Like Nubian, fuck it.

00:23:13Guest:So African Americans from America don't deny their shit.

00:23:17Guest:They'll go, watch this.

00:23:18Guest:I'm Irish, I'm Swedish, I'm Nubian.

00:23:22Guest:Oh, Nubian.

00:23:24Guest:Okay.

00:23:25Guest:Yeah, my dad's Nubian.

00:23:26Guest:He's part Nubian.

00:23:27Guest:Fucking amazing.

00:23:28Guest:I'm changing the language.

00:23:30Guest:What's holding you back?

00:23:32Guest:What do you mean, what's holding me back?

00:23:34Guest:I don't know.

00:23:34Guest:Shitty managers?

00:23:35Guest:I don't fucking know.

00:23:36Guest:My agents are great.

00:23:37Guest:Like I said, innovative is the shit.

00:23:39Guest:What did you do at Comedy Central today?

00:23:42Guest:I just got weirded out.

00:23:44Guest:Oh, really?

00:23:45Guest:No, I had a meeting...

00:23:47Guest:And I was supposed to meet with a particular guy.

00:23:49Guest:He didn't come to the meeting.

00:23:50Marc:Oh, that's the worst.

00:23:51Marc:Where you have it like, that's the guy you're supposed to meet.

00:23:54Guest:And I'm still going to try and meet him.

00:23:55Guest:I'm like, bullshit.

00:23:56Guest:I'm like, he's a good dude.

00:23:58Guest:You know what I mean?

00:23:59Guest:Yeah.

00:23:59Guest:I just sometimes, stand-up-wise, I'm where I need to be.

00:24:03Guest:But sometimes when it comes to pitching shit, I get insecure as fuck, man.

00:24:06Guest:Really?

00:24:07Guest:I just don't think.

00:24:08Guest:I go, are they going to like this shit?

00:24:10Guest:Really?

00:24:10Guest:I get weirded out, man.

00:24:12Guest:I'm not going to lie.

00:24:13Guest:That's what's holding me back because I have a lot of good ideas, but I get afraid to flesh them out.

00:24:16Marc:Well, here's the trick to that.

00:24:18Marc:What's the trick?

00:24:18Marc:They have no idea what they're going to like one way or the other.

00:24:23Marc:They have a lot of open spots in their day, and they're like, let's bring a funny guy in.

00:24:28Marc:And see what happens.

00:24:29Marc:Do you think so?

00:24:30Marc:Yeah.

00:24:31Marc:That's why they're taking the meeting.

00:24:34Marc:Basically, it's a cry for help at all levels.

00:24:36Marc:You think it's a cry for help?

00:24:38Marc:Look at network television.

00:24:39Guest:Yeah.

00:24:40Marc:Are you kidding me?

00:24:41Marc:It's like they're just hemorrhaging viewers.

00:24:43Marc:They don't even know how to.

00:24:45Marc:They're like, we don't know where anyone's watching anything.

00:24:47Guest:In a way, it's kind of cool.

00:24:49Marc:It's great.

00:24:50Marc:Are you kidding me?

00:24:51Marc:You just walk in.

00:24:52Guest:You throw the power out of their hands.

00:24:53Marc:Here's your confidence.

00:24:53Guest:Like, I'll guarantee people will watch your network with this.

00:24:57Guest:Oh, there it is.

00:24:58Guest:Well, I have to admit, though, I am better at my meetings because I'm more straight to the point.

00:25:04Guest:I'm more honest, not in a bad way, but I'm just more to the point, and I kind of know what I want, and I kind of ask them the questions more, and I'm a little smarter from being just, I'm like an old whore, an old prostitute that I'm trying to, you know, when you talk to the young hoes, you're like this, listen, baby, all you got to do, go in there, get your ass, suck the dick, and get out and get your money, baby.

00:25:25Guest:I'm telling you, you don't want to waste too much time.

00:25:26Guest:You give me the money.

00:25:28Guest:I'm like an old prostitute.

00:25:30Guest:You know what I mean?

00:25:31Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:25:34Guest:But I don't want to be a woulda, coulda, shoulda, man.

00:25:36Guest:That freaks me out a little bit.

00:25:37Marc:I don't think you are.

00:25:38Marc:You've tried to do everything you want.

00:25:45Guest:You know, I like how you're Mayweathering me right now.

00:25:48Guest:You just jab it.

00:25:49Guest:And I'm like, fuck, you got me.

00:25:50Guest:Oh, fuck, you got me.

00:25:52Guest:You don't have knockout punches.

00:25:53Guest:You don't have knockout punches, but you're opening up the bottom of my eye a little bit.

00:25:59Marc:I'm like, motherfucker.

00:26:00Marc:By the time we're done, you're like, I'm quitting.

00:26:03Guest:I give up throwing the towel.

00:26:05Guest:That was good.

00:26:05Guest:I didn't even mean to.

00:26:06Marc:That's the weird thing with you.

00:26:07Marc:It just happened so naturally.

00:26:09Guest:It's so...

00:26:10Guest:Another jab.

00:26:12Guest:You're getting a lot of points from body punches.

00:26:15Guest:Not knockout.

00:26:16Guest:But you laugh at it.

00:26:17Guest:I love because it's fucking hysterical.

00:26:19Guest:Because no matter what you do to me on this show, it's better than I'd rather have Marc Maron fuck with me on his show than you not inviting me here.

00:26:31Guest:Yeah.

00:26:31Guest:Why?

00:26:31Guest:Are you kidding me?

00:26:32Guest:Because you know what?

00:26:33Guest:You try to be mean, but I see right through that shit.

00:26:36Guest:I know.

00:26:36Marc:I've been through your pain, man.

00:26:38Marc:That's why I like you.

00:26:40Marc:Like a lot of people think I'm really mean and I'm like, they don't know me.

00:26:42Marc:And I thought about that the other day.

00:26:44Marc:Cause I think it's like a bit I'm working on.

00:26:46Marc:It's like, like I'm, I'm an asshole, but I'm, but I'm really a nice guy.

00:26:50Marc:So like, so anyone who thinks I'm an asshole, like they should.

00:26:53Marc:That's one person I'll have to deal with.

00:26:58Marc:that's how it weeds out your face exactly it's like oh i'm not gonna talk yeah yeah good good good it's like if you can see my heart good here we go yeah yeah i know exactly who could see it i know exactly right and you know yeah there are dudes that it's sort of like i'm not gonna put up with anything like the pretend asshole pretend asshole pretending

00:27:17Guest:yeah yeah yeah i want to hear that shit yeah and then you offer me coffee you're you're hospitable in your house shit like that i so i don't want to play i don't hear that shit you know i think you cook for people too if you have i knew it i fucking some people come over they don't forget to eat you got what about us man i don't know i just ate all that thing i ate all the papaya there's no i don't have any good snacks right now any good snacks i had some cereal

00:27:40Guest:What kind of cereal you fuck with?

00:27:42Marc:Puffins.

00:27:43Guest:The fucking bird?

00:27:45Guest:What do you mean?

00:27:46Guest:You like puffins?

00:27:47Guest:That's the bird.

00:27:48Guest:That's the wannabe Toucan Sam.

00:27:50Guest:I know what it is.

00:27:51Guest:Get the Froot Loops, Duke.

00:27:52Guest:Get the Raisin Bear and Crunch.

00:27:54Guest:Puffins are dry as shit.

00:27:56Guest:Let me ask you a question.

00:27:57Guest:Are you a fucking grown-up?

00:27:58Guest:Yeah, that's why I'm asking you to get me some fucking cereal.

00:28:01Guest:Some Fruit Loops.

00:28:02Guest:Get me some goddamn Fruit Loops, man.

00:28:05Guest:What the fuck?

00:28:06Guest:That's what you do.

00:28:06Guest:Fruit Loops.

00:28:07Guest:You know, that's what you do as a grown-up.

00:28:09Guest:You eat cereal when the fuck you want, and you don't have to wait for your parents to tell you.

00:28:12Marc:No, I know, but I eat good cereal.

00:28:14Marc:Healthy.

00:28:14Marc:Puffins?

00:28:15Marc:They're just like Captain... They're crunchy.

00:28:17Guest:I know, they're those little corn crunch.

00:28:19Marc:Pillows, yeah.

00:28:19Marc:They're like little pillows.

00:28:20Marc:That shit is whack, dude.

00:28:22Marc:All right.

00:28:22Marc:It's whack.

00:28:23Marc:But it's not as bad.

00:28:25Marc:Puffins?

00:28:27Guest:What do you want me to eat?

00:28:28Guest:Raisin Bran Crunch.

00:28:30Marc:Not Raisin Bran.

00:28:30Marc:No, I can make Raisin Bran.

00:28:31Marc:I got Bran Flakes and I got Raisins.

00:28:33Guest:Raisin Bran Crunch.

00:28:35Guest:You know what else is good?

00:28:36Guest:Life.

00:28:37Guest:Cinnamon Life.

00:28:38Guest:Cinnamon?

00:28:38Guest:Why can't you just go with the original Life?

00:28:40Guest:Nah, it's just white.

00:28:40Guest:Cinnamon Life is tight.

00:28:42Guest:I used to eat Cocoa Pebbles when I was a kid.

00:28:44Marc:Not bad.

00:28:45Guest:Cocoa Pebbles is good.

00:28:46Guest:Cocoa Pebbles is good.

00:28:47Guest:Fruity?

00:28:48Guest:Cocoa Pebbles?

00:28:49Marc:I don't like the Fruity Pebbles.

00:28:50Guest:No?

00:28:51Marc:No, I got a problem with it.

00:28:51Guest:If it gets soggy.

00:28:52Guest:Yeah.

00:28:53Guest:See, I like a little milk.

00:28:54Guest:Keep the shit top and top crunchy.

00:28:56Marc:Yeah.

00:28:57Guest:And then once it gets soggy, I toss it out.

00:28:59Marc:I like soggy puffins.

00:29:00Guest:Fucking ugh.

00:29:02Guest:Soggy puffins.

00:29:04Guest:That sounds like old, nasty ass.

00:29:07Marc:I think we've covered it all.

00:29:08Guest:Did we cover it all?

00:29:09Guest:Yeah.

00:29:10Guest:Why are you here?

00:29:11Guest:I'm here because you said I could come and promote my new hour special that I filmed.

00:29:17Guest:I shot.

00:29:17Guest:Okay, whatever you want to say.

00:29:18Guest:I shot in Chicago.

00:29:20Guest:At the Vick.

00:29:21Guest:No.

00:29:22Guest:They did a bunch of those at the Vic.

00:29:24Guest:I decided to go with Rooftop Comedy, Matt Shuler and crew.

00:29:28Guest:Giving them credit, Matt Shuler and crew.

00:29:31Guest:Rooftop, it was at Second City at Up.

00:29:35Guest:Oh, Up's good.

00:29:36Marc:Second City.

00:29:36Guest:That's good.

00:29:37Marc:They're not going to do it anymore.

00:29:39Guest:I know.

00:29:40Guest:JB, who is awesome.

00:29:42Guest:JB said they were not going to do any more comedies anymore, which is sad.

00:29:45Marc:Good room.

00:29:46Marc:I never got to play it.

00:29:47Marc:Great room.

00:29:48Marc:I used to play.

00:29:49Marc:I didn't mind the Vic.

00:29:50Guest:I'm happy.

00:29:50Guest:Showtime's doing good-ass shit, man.

00:29:52Marc:Yeah.

00:29:52Guest:They're doing good stuff.

00:29:53Guest:And you know what?

00:29:54Guest:You need to be on there where people can just pick your shit out and watch it.

00:29:57Marc:That's right.

00:29:58Marc:And it's good they still need stuff.

00:29:59Guest:And I think... Ooh!

00:30:03Guest:I need an eight count.

00:30:05Guest:Are you sure you want to still be in this fight?

00:30:06Guest:Yeah.

00:30:07Guest:Uh-huh.

00:30:08Guest:Uh-huh.

00:30:08Guest:I still want to be in this fight.

00:30:10Guest:Uh-huh.

00:30:11Guest:That was a good one, Mark.

00:30:13Guest:Fuck.

00:30:13Guest:I love it shit.

00:30:14Guest:I don't even know why I'm so good at it with you.

00:30:16Guest:You're so good at it.

00:30:17Guest:That's why I need to come more often.

00:30:21Guest:Not on some crazy shit, but just... All right.

00:30:24Guest:I'm an interesting dude to you.

00:30:25Guest:You know this.

00:30:26Marc:I'm just mad.

00:30:27Marc:I have a good time.

00:30:28Marc:You have a good time with me, sir.

00:30:30Marc:Let's not go crazy.

00:30:31Marc:Fuck.

00:30:31Marc:Interesting.

00:30:32Marc:Anything you talk about, I can talk about with you.

00:30:33Marc:It doesn't matter.

00:30:34Marc:Well, I know we talk about country music.

00:30:35Marc:Let's save that.

00:30:36Marc:Let's save that one.

00:30:37Marc:Yeah.

00:30:38Marc:All right.

00:30:39Marc:So you want some puffins?

00:30:41Marc:Fuck that.

00:30:41Marc:I want maybe dry puffins.

00:30:43Marc:All right.

00:30:43Marc:Bye.

00:30:44Marc:All right.

00:30:44Marc:Peace.

00:30:46Marc:Ah, yes, Gottfried and Maren, the fun, sparring, funny, kind of almost crying engagement that we do.

00:31:01Marc:Again, regular black is airing on Showtime On Demand and on Showtime in general, I believe.

00:31:08Marc:Werner Herzog is here.

00:31:12Marc:I was thrilled to talk to him.

00:31:13Marc:He's one of those guys who I've seen a lot of his movies, but I obviously haven't seen all of his movies.

00:31:18Marc:And there's always some part of me that thinks I should see everything or listen to everything or read everything that my guests have written or shot or done or recorded, but it never matters.

00:31:28Marc:I knew what I wanted to talk to him about in a way.

00:31:33Marc:I just wanted to talk to him about things.

00:31:36Marc:It was an exciting honor to meet Werner Herzog.

00:31:39Marc:So this is me and Werner.

00:31:42Marc:His new documentary is called Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World.

00:31:46Marc:It's in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th.

00:31:54Marc:What is the last thing that you finished reading?

00:32:02Guest:An obscure historian, Greek antiquity.

00:32:08Marc:Yeah.

00:32:09Guest:Theodorus Siculus.

00:32:11Marc:So it's an actual Greek historian from B.C.

00:32:16Guest:Yes.

00:32:16Yes.

00:32:17Marc:And when you read something like that, outside of the dates and information, what do you glean from it?

00:32:26Guest:Oh, in this case, I would say it's a soap opera story about the father of Alexander the Great, Philip II of Macedon.

00:32:40Guest:And Diodorus Siculus is a fairly unintelligent writer.

00:32:46Guest:more an encyclopedist.

00:32:49Guest:But all of a sudden, when it comes to the father of Alexander the Great, he's brilliant and wild and unbelievable.

00:32:58Guest:Apparently, Diodorus Siculus had access to sources that others didn't have in antiquity.

00:33:07Marc:Right.

00:33:08Marc:So he got the inside information.

00:33:11Right.

00:33:11Guest:Well, we never know exactly.

00:33:13Guest:Is it really inside information?

00:33:15Guest:How much is made up?

00:33:16Guest:How much is sort of slightly inclination into propaganda?

00:33:26Guest:You don't know.

00:33:27Marc:Right.

00:33:28Marc:But what do you find is, I mean, when you think, because even watching the new movie, it seems that sometimes you really kind of focus on the sort of vulnerability of humans and their needs and desires and where that takes them.

00:33:45Marc:So when you look at something like a propagandist or somebody that's perhaps switching history around,

00:33:54Marc:What do you think creates that dynamic?

00:33:56Marc:Do you think he was working for the state or do you think he was... No, no, no.

00:34:01Guest:History is always a question of perception.

00:34:04Guest:So whenever you read history, any kind of history, it is always perception.

00:34:12Guest:Right.

00:34:12Guest:There's always a...

00:34:14Guest:a tendency unbeknownst to the writer.

00:34:18Guest:Right.

00:34:20Guest:And you have to read the historical context and you have to read the mood of the time and you have to understand the argument within the context of the time.

00:34:34Marc:Right.

00:34:34Guest:So then it becomes fascinating.

00:34:36Marc:Right.

00:34:37Marc:Because you have the whole world.

00:34:38Marc:You can look at the whole world of what's happening.

00:34:40Marc:You have the full context.

00:34:41Right.

00:34:42Guest:You will never have the full context.

00:34:45Guest:That's an illusion, but you can get snippets of it.

00:34:49Marc:Well, when I was watching Lo and Behold, the new documentary, it was not a good night for me.

00:34:55Marc:I enjoyed the movie, but I didn't sleep well.

00:34:59Marc:I had dreams of spiders for some reason.

00:35:02Marc:I don't know why, but I found myself terrified at the end of it, and that I should be doing something to... That's the odd thing at the end of that film, is that I should be doing something to protect what?

00:35:12Marc:There's no way out, really.

00:35:15Guest:Yes, of course there is.

00:35:17Guest:Why are you so... Negative?

00:35:19Guest:Sounding so doomed.

00:35:21Yeah.

00:35:21Guest:It's kind of weird.

00:35:25Guest:Is it?

00:35:25Guest:Yes, of course.

00:35:26Guest:And do I not show some of the glories of the internet, for example?

00:35:31Marc:Oh, no, yeah, no, it's great.

00:35:33Marc:But what I found the most glorious was the passion of these people.

00:35:38Marc:of these scientists and these researchers and even the security analysts that, you know, the challenge of now managing the monster or the beautiful thing, however you want to look at it, is really going to be the humanity's work is going to be managing this monster.

00:35:57Guest:You see, the Internet is not good or evil.

00:36:00Guest:Right.

00:36:00Guest:Nor is electricity.

00:36:02Guest:Right.

00:36:03Guest:It doesn't have qualities beyond the technical qualities.

00:36:07Guest:Right.

00:36:08Guest:Although, if we strap you onto an electric chair and execute you, you better recalibrate your opinion a few minutes before we do that.

00:36:22Marc:Right.

00:36:22Marc:So, in the hands of humans...

00:36:25Marc:This amazing force can go either way.

00:36:28Guest:Yeah, well, humans are good or evil.

00:36:30Guest:They are.

00:36:31Guest:And much worse, so much of the time they are very stupid.

00:36:38Guest:And there's a certain danger.

00:36:42Marc:Stupid and evil are not mutually exclusive in any way.

00:36:45Marc:Like a lot of the very classic stupid evil people that have done great damage in their stupidity.

00:36:52Guest:You know, I, sorry that I would like to tell you a dream because I hardly ever dream.

00:36:59Marc:When did it happen?

00:37:01Guest:Not long ago, but I dream maybe once in a year.

00:37:06Guest:Really?

00:37:06Guest:And I was running in a street in Mexico somehow, pursued by God knows what.

00:37:17Guest:And at an intersection, I bump into a donkey.

00:37:22Guest:that has some sort of load packed on it.

00:37:27Guest:And I'm knocked down and somebody, a priest, picks me up and shakes me and screams at me, do you believe in the forces of evil?

00:37:37Guest:Do you renounce Satan himself?

00:37:41Guest:And somehow, perplexed as I was, I said, I do not believe in the devil.

00:37:48Guest:I only believe in stupidity.

00:37:51Guest:That was what I dreamt.

00:37:54Guest:You better figure that one out.

00:38:01Marc:Seems like a good short film.

00:38:05Guest:Did you grow up with religion?

00:38:07Guest:No, not at all.

00:38:10Guest:Well, I had a deeply religious phase in my adolescence and I converted to Catholicism, which didn't last very long.

00:38:19Guest:How old?

00:38:21Guest:13, 14.

00:38:22Marc:What compelled you?

00:38:23Guest:That's too complex to discuss it here, but it is a fact that I had a very intense, dramatic religious phase that in a way threatened to break the family apart, which was a family of militant atheists.

00:38:45Yeah.

00:38:45Marc:When you look back on it, do you think maybe that was the reason you did it?

00:38:52Marc:No, no, no.

00:38:53Guest:I was independent since I started to think independently, even before that, because my brothers and I grew up in an environment where there were no fathers.

00:39:09Guest:Because of the war?

00:39:10Guest:Yeah.

00:39:10Guest:Yes, we had to take care of ourselves.

00:39:13Guest:We had to shape our destiny.

00:39:15Guest:We understood it.

00:39:17Guest:We have to be self-reliant.

00:39:19Marc:So what year was that?

00:39:21Marc:What year were you born?

00:39:22Guest:1942, in the middle of the Second World War.

00:39:26Guest:Oh, my God.

00:39:27Guest:And my very first reminiscences are connected to the very end of the war.

00:39:37Marc:Very visually.

00:39:38Marc:Like sounds and destruction?

00:39:40Guest:Actually, no destruction.

00:39:45Guest:I didn't see destruction because my mother fled to the mountains, to the most remote valley in the Alps.

00:39:55Guest:Because where I was born, there was a carpet bombardment, and we were really in danger, so my mother fled.

00:40:07Guest:Oh, that was good.

00:40:07Guest:And...

00:40:09Guest:I do remember, however, that she ripped my older brother and me out of our beds in the middle of the night and carried us, and it was cold, and she wrapped us into blankets.

00:40:23Guest:And she said, children, boys, I had to wake you up.

00:40:27Guest:You have to see this.

00:40:28Guest:And at the end of the valley, very far in the distance, the horizon was completely in the middle of the night, dark night.

00:40:37Guest:The horizon was pulsing in red and orange, the entire horizon.

00:40:43Guest:And she says, boys, you have to see this.

00:40:45Guest:The city of Rosenheim is burning.

00:40:47Guest:And the city of Rosenheim, 30 miles away at least.

00:40:52Marc:Was it leveled?

00:40:53Guest:Completely, yes.

00:40:55Guest:Like pretty much every major city in Germany, 720 cities were completely leveled, but leveled the way Ground Zero looked like.

00:41:09Guest:And that was only a tiny fraction of New York City.

00:41:12Guest:Yeah, and it just rubbled.

00:41:14Guest:Very few cities were not actually bombed by virtue of some statistical errors, I think.

00:41:22Marc:Oh, really?

00:41:24Marc:They didn't need to be bombed, do you mean?

00:41:27Guest:No, they were forgotten maybe, or they didn't.

00:41:31Guest:Somebody was not keeping track of what had been destroyed and what was still out there.

00:41:38Marc:Yeah.

00:41:39Marc:So your father died in the war?

00:41:40Guest:No.

00:41:42Guest:He was in captivity and then very soon after the war divorced.

00:41:51Marc:When did you move back into a city?

00:41:54Guest:When it was time to go to high school.

00:41:57Guest:That means age 11.

00:42:00Marc:And when you got back, which city did you go back to?

00:42:02Guest:Munich, where I was born.

00:42:04Marc:So how long did it take for them to reconstruct that city?

00:42:09No.

00:42:10Guest:Some of it is still filling up.

00:42:13Guest:There are still gaps that are filling up.

00:42:17Guest:But I would say basically by the time of the Munich Olympics were held, 1972, they utilized some of the mountains that were built up.

00:42:28Guest:as part of the Olympic landscape.

00:42:32Guest:Yeah.

00:42:32Guest:And these mountains were, I mean, gigantic amounts of cubic feet.

00:42:41Guest:It was all rubble.

00:42:43Guest:Really?

00:42:43Guest:And it was flat, but now you do have, we call it Schottberge, the debris mountains.

00:42:50Guest:Right.

00:42:50Guest:And now they're overgrown with grass and trees, and they look like very normal landscape, but...

00:42:57Guest:archaeologists of the future in a thousand years will dig into it and they will find millions and millions of cubic feet, billions of cubic feet of rubble.

00:43:12Marc:Rubble and pieces of history?

00:43:14Marc:Whatever, yes.

00:43:16Marc:So when you knew that, when did you start thinking creatively in terms of wanting to pursue film or wanting to pursue a life of art?

00:43:27Guest:That was the same time I converted to Catholicism.

00:43:30Guest:I started to travel on foot.

00:43:33Guest:I knew I was going to be a poet, a filmmaker.

00:43:38Guest:Thirteen.

00:43:39Guest:Fourteen, I would say.

00:43:40Guest:And then things, it was all in a very short span of time.

00:43:47Guest:And somehow I'm still carried by it until today.

00:43:51Marc:By the purpose of it?

00:43:53Guest:No, accepting, recognizing my fate.

00:43:56Marc:That is what you are?

00:44:00Marc:Yes.

00:44:02Guest:Well, it sounds a little bit pathetic.

00:44:04Guest:You better grab this, touch this term, accepting or understanding your fate.

00:44:11Guest:You better touch it only with a pair of pliers.

00:44:14Guest:But I think you know what I mean.

00:44:16Marc:I do.

00:44:17Marc:I do.

00:44:18Marc:Is that you understood what you are here to do?

00:44:23Guest:Yes, giving meaning to my life in an otherwise meaningless and aimless universe.

00:44:34Marc:Yeah.

00:44:36Marc:So it's almost like it is saving your life on some level.

00:44:40Marc:No, no, of course not.

00:44:42Guest:Okay.

00:44:43Guest:My life was given to me by some strange coincidence, statistically improbable, but now I'm here.

00:44:54Guest:So I bet I had to figure out what to do with it.

00:44:59Marc:When I watch the documentaries and some of the feature films, they're challenging because they're amazingly human and they're completely compelling, but sometimes dark, obviously, and sometimes very...

00:45:18Marc:There's a vulnerability to them that is disturbing.

00:45:21Marc:Like if I think of Grizzly Man, and I even watched Even Dwarves Started Small recently.

00:45:28Marc:That's a wild one, a radical one.

00:45:33Marc:It is, because it's a very challenging thing when you watch Even Dwarves Were Small to not laugh a lot.

00:45:41Guest:Of course, it has a very dark humor in it, very black humor.

00:45:46Guest:And many of my films, by the way, have a lot of humor in it.

00:45:49Marc:Oh, no, yeah, definitely.

00:45:51Marc:I feel that.

00:45:52Marc:You have a great sense of timing and a great sense of where to cut.

00:45:57Marc:Sometimes you let things hang for a minute in the documentaries all the time.

00:46:01Guest:Or even poking fun at the Internet and the use of the Internet.

00:46:07Guest:In lo and behold, I show Buddhist monks at the skyline and they're all tweeting.

00:46:15Guest:So my commentary, of course, makes it a very hilarious event.

00:46:20Marc:Yes.

00:46:21Guest:And I know how to deal with the Internet in a way.

00:46:26Guest:And strangely enough, my humor on the Internet has quite often become viral.

00:46:32Guest:I was asked in a podcast for the first time when I showed Lo and Behold at Sundance and became a phenomenal success there.

00:46:43Guest:And I was in a podcast.

00:46:44Guest:And I asked, yeah, but I have my laptop open, but I don't see you.

00:46:49Guest:And I was instructed, well, you don't see me like in a Skype conversation because this is a podcast.

00:46:58Guest:It's only like radio.

00:47:00Guest:And I said, but how do I access?

00:47:03Guest:And they gave me an address.

00:47:04Guest:You just type in this access, this keyword, and then Google us.

00:47:11Guest:And now comes this, of course, my kind of joke.

00:47:14Guest:I asked how, for heaven's sake, do I hack into Google?

00:47:20Guest:They were screaming.

00:47:22Guest:And so I think you understand my type of humor.

00:47:29Marc:No, I do.

00:47:30Marc:I've watched a lot of the movies, and I think that sometimes it relieves a moment.

00:47:35Marc:There are moments in this that are humorous, but they're also powerful.

00:47:40Marc:You know, when you ask that guy if he loved his robot.

00:47:43Marc:Yes, and he does.

00:47:44Marc:He does.

00:47:45Marc:Robot 8.

00:47:47Marc:He really loves Robot 8.

00:47:49Marc:They all love Robot 8.

00:47:52Marc:Yeah.

00:47:52Marc:It seems to be something that you explore a lot, that we're vulnerable and sometimes life gets away from us in certain ways and being human is fragile, right?

00:48:07Guest:And yet what they are doing is a monumental achievement of human ingenuity.

00:48:14Guest:With certain dangers, of course.

00:48:18Guest:But it is a very momentous kind of revolution, as momentous as, for example, the introduction of fire.

00:48:29Guest:Yes.

00:48:30Guest:For early humans.

00:48:31Guest:Yes.

00:48:32Guest:Or as an introduction of electricity.

00:48:35Guest:That's a huge thing.

00:48:36Guest:Yes.

00:48:37Guest:It's much bigger than, let's say, printing books.

00:48:40Guest:Yes.

00:48:41Guest:Gutenberg Bible and so on from then.

00:48:43Guest:It's much bigger than all this.

00:48:45Guest:And it's bigger than the discovery of America by Columbus.

00:48:50Guest:Yes.

00:48:51Guest:You see, and that's why the logbook that you find at UCLA...

00:48:57Guest:which actually did the very first server-to-server connection between UCLA and Stanford.

00:49:06Guest:And the very first message that was sent across should be log in.

00:49:12Guest:But they spelled L. L arrived.

00:49:16Guest:They asked via telephone, yes, yep, L has arrived.

00:49:20Guest:O arrived.

00:49:21Guest:Yep, O has arrived.

00:49:22Guest:When they typed in G, the computer crashed.

00:49:25Guest:Right.

00:49:25Guest:So it's just low.

00:49:27Guest:Low, yes.

00:49:28Guest:And it's, as Leonard Kleinrock, the pioneer, tells us, this was a very auspicious sort of label all of a sudden.

00:49:38Guest:Low, like in low and behold.

00:49:40Guest:And they didn't even, they had no clue how momentous that moment was.

00:49:48Guest:And he knows it was more momentous.

00:49:51Guest:This tiny little entry in their logbook had more significance than Columbus's logbook on the ship.

00:50:02Guest:This morning we spotted land.

00:50:04Marc:Yes.

00:50:04Guest:It's bigger than that.

00:50:06Marc:I think it is, and I guess maybe because it's a good documentary, I'm bringing a lot of my own cynicism to everything that's being discussed.

00:50:16Marc:I think that's what's compelling about a film like that, is that I can't not think of darkness winning, ultimately.

00:50:25Marc:Like, and when they talk about, like, when are we going to be able to walk?

00:50:28Guest:Yeah, but you don't look like a guy.

00:50:31Guest:I mean, I see you.

00:50:32Guest:You sit opposite to me.

00:50:34Guest:You don't look like being driven by dark forces.

00:50:38Guest:No.

00:50:39Guest:I'm sure you love a good steak once in a while.

00:50:41Marc:I had one the other night.

00:50:43Guest:Okay.

00:50:43Marc:I read your face correctly.

00:50:45Marc:Yes.

00:50:46Marc:I am occasionally a steak eater.

00:50:48Guest:Yes.

00:50:50Yes.

00:50:50Marc:And your laughter isn't fiendish.

00:50:53Marc:No, no.

00:50:55Marc:I think I'm speaking out of fear.

00:50:56Marc:I don't think I'm necessarily a dark guy.

00:50:58Marc:But when I hear these guys, the guy in the planetarium saying, I don't want to think about that.

00:51:04Marc:I don't want to think about a world where this thing goes wrong.

00:51:08Marc:I don't even want to entertain that thought right now.

00:51:10Guest:We should.

00:51:11Guest:Of course.

00:51:12Guest:We should, of course, because we can take very easy precautions individually.

00:51:20Guest:For example, there's constant talk.

00:51:22Guest:We should get rid of cash money and we should introduce virtual reality.

00:51:30Guest:currency like bitcoins or you should only pay electronically.

00:51:37Guest:No, because if the internet is down, you cannot buy your hamburger at the joint down at the corner.

00:51:43Guest:You cannot flush your toilet anymore and you cannot go in the elevator to the 70th floor in New York City and you have no connectivity, you have no radio, no telephone, nothing.

00:51:57Guest:So we better provide ourselves with at least a small stash of dollar bills, small denominations, because with a $100 bill, you still can buy a hamburger, but they wouldn't have the change to give you back.

00:52:16Guest:So you better have $1 bills, $5, $10, $20 bills.

00:52:20Marc:I know, but in the movie, it seems like within two or three days, there's not going to be any hamburgers either.

00:52:24Right.

00:52:24Guest:That could actually be, yes.

00:52:28Marc:No matter what you do to safeguard yourself, that within a week or two, it's going to be ugly.

00:52:35Guest:Yes, but now on the technical level, let's try and find certain safeguards to reinstall things, at least regionally.

00:52:45Guest:decentralize the entire system so that only certain parts are going to be affected, like with the electrical grid.

00:52:55Guest:If some generator station is blasting away, you reroute your currency and in a similar way you can do so with the internet.

00:53:10Guest:There's not much thought going into it.

00:53:13Guest:I'm sure that, for example, Secret Services are very much interested in that.

00:53:20Marc:So when you make a film like that, you don't find yourself feeling bleak?

00:53:25Guest:No, not at all.

00:53:26Guest:It's a phenomenal, phenomenal thing to look at it and to conceptualize and to see things that nobody has even predicted 15 years ago and they're happening now.

00:53:39Guest:They're changing our behavior and they're changing our, let's say, at least the organization of technical civilizations.

00:53:49Guest:So the Amish couldn't care less about

00:53:51Guest:But they have a very good survival rate if everything goes down because they are self-reliant homestead farmers.

00:54:02Guest:And they don't even need electricity.

00:54:05Marc:But what about the rest of us?

00:54:07Guest:We will have a harder time, and we better look at what we are doing.

00:54:13Guest:You can go out for hunting and foraging, but the park in downtown Los Angeles is very small, and you've got about maybe 50 squirrels or 15 million people who live around there.

00:54:28Marc:A few coyotes.

00:54:29Marc:You've got to learn how to eat coyotes.

00:54:30Guest:Yes, you have to eat the coyote, but they are not enough for 15 million.

00:54:35Guest:Okay.

00:54:35Guest:So that's a problem.

00:54:38Marc:Yeah, it is a problem.

00:54:39Marc:But like I said, I thought it was a beautiful movie that weighed all this stuff pretty well.

00:54:45Marc:Yes, it is.

00:54:46Marc:It is.

00:54:46Marc:It definitely is.

00:54:49Marc:What was being talked about at the end, which I sort of get obsessed about, is that at the beginning of this conversation, we were talking about you taking an ancient Greek historian and putting it into context to fully understand the possibilities of the times that he is trying to talk about.

00:55:05Marc:And that one of the things that I've said before about...

00:55:10Marc:about the internet is that eventually you may have a generation of kids, if they're not there now, who will just say, you know, like Adolf Hitler, oh, he's the guy with the mustache.

00:55:20Marc:And that's all they know.

00:55:21Marc:So in terms of contextualizing and honoring history and actually having, like they were talking about the end, how do you continue to inspire people

00:55:31Guest:kids to or young people to engage your imagination and contextualize what has happened before them it has to come from them i cannot play the principle no i know for all of us uh but but you're so be careful uh no and and i do not think that uh young people will eventually ask the essential questions why are we here what are we doing here

00:55:57Guest:How do we conduct our lives?

00:56:00Guest:How do we touch each other?

00:56:02Guest:How do we cook for each other?

00:56:05Guest:How do we raise children?

00:56:08Marc:You believe they will continue to ask those questions?

00:56:10Guest:Yes, it's inevitable.

00:56:12Guest:Sure, we are humans, let's face it.

00:56:15Guest:It's a wild time of transition.

00:56:18Marc:So that's how you see it, that we're in a transition.

00:56:21Guest:Yes, and we do not know how to deal with the instrument well enough.

00:56:27Guest:You see, in the 50s, there was this obsession of cars.

00:56:32Guest:Elvis in his car, in this big Buick or whatever it was, and drive-in restaurants.

00:56:38Guest:And you could do, in Las Vegas still, I think you can do a drive-in wedding.

00:56:45Guest:And I have seen a sign in Las Vegas not long ago where there was an advertisement, drive by divorce.

00:56:56Guest:You see, but this kind of obsession with cars is a little bit outdated.

00:57:03Guest:And we are rethinking our cars and we are trying to have...

00:57:08Guest:Cars that have a much lower emission of gases, of toxic gases, or we are moving into electric cars.

00:57:19Guest:So we have started to understand how to use this tool.

00:57:26Marc:i get it no i understand there's no no drive by divorce anymore right yeah no it's a you gotta you gotta do it the old-fashioned way but it but all those technologies require human engagement on a very organic level that you know now there there are so many and obviously you're not a scientist but i mean i understand that we're adapting to a new world and a new technology but so much of it is has nothing to do with us

00:57:53Marc:in the sense of we don't know anything.

00:57:56Guest:No, it all has to do with us.

00:57:59Guest:For example, GPS system has to do with fundamental insights into movement and time.

00:58:09Guest:Without the theory of relativity by Einstein, we could not have a GPS system.

00:58:18Guest:That's right.

00:58:19Guest:You see.

00:58:20Guest:And it is not visible for us and it is not palpable, but we are doing it because we had Einstein.

00:58:30Guest:Yes.

00:58:31Guest:And when you pay your grocery at the cash register…

00:58:36Guest:You do not have to go into the mathematical principles that rule the cash register calculation machine.

00:58:45Guest:You don't need to do that.

00:58:47Guest:And yet, it's a normal thing.

00:58:50Guest:You buy certain things and you pay a certain amount.

00:58:57Guest:And it has been calculated.

00:58:59Guest:How it was calculated is uninteresting now.

00:59:02Marc:Yes, that's true.

00:59:04Guest:It has disappeared.

00:59:05Marc:Okay.

00:59:05Marc:I mean, I agree with you.

00:59:08Marc:I just get nervous when you have the darker elements that you explore.

00:59:11Marc:I thought the security analyst guy was great, the one that was not able to give you a lot of information.

00:59:17Marc:But I thought that was very fascinating that even securing what is happening from another human being or maybe a group of human beings...

00:59:26Marc:you have to identify patterns you have to live in this world right where where patterns become suspect and then track patterns i thought that was all uh you know very fascinating it is and and of course uh it comes right at the time at the right time for discussion when everybody was into

00:59:46Guest:The thing of hacking the Democratic Convention emails.

00:59:54Guest:And there were machinations against Bernie Sanders.

00:59:57Guest:And so, number one, it's not really clear whether it was any of the Russians who in the KGB or the modern form of the KGB would call himself Cozy Bear.

01:00:08Guest:Yeah.

01:00:08Guest:Nor has the NSA or the CIA ever confirmed it.

01:00:14Guest:They keep ominously silent.

01:00:17Guest:At the same time, we should understand where the massive monumental siphoning of knowledge, of technologies, of science, of science.

01:00:28Guest:details, secrets of manufacturing is taking place.

01:00:34Guest:It's not an individual hacker.

01:00:37Guest:It's not the Russians.

01:00:39Guest:I mean, everybody does it.

01:00:41Guest:America certainly does it.

01:00:43Guest:But there's one player out there that siphons off trillions of dollars of worth, of values.

01:00:54Guest:And they are still out there and they are still doing it.

01:00:57Marc:Yeah.

01:00:59Guest:You name the name.

01:01:00Marc:I don't know the name.

01:01:02Guest:I know it and everybody knows it.

01:01:04Marc:Yeah.

01:01:05Guest:Name horse and rider.

01:01:06Guest:Just take a guess among the countries that is siphoning off.

01:01:12Marc:Millions of dollars?

01:01:13Guest:Trillions of dollars.

01:01:15Guest:Take a guess.

01:01:16Marc:China.

01:01:18Guest:you pronounce it in a beautiful way.

01:01:21Guest:We do not exactly know, but we should assume.

01:01:24Guest:So you may have come to a smart conclusion and ask the professional hackers.

01:01:34Guest:That guy was great in the movie.

01:01:36Guest:Mitnick.

01:01:37Guest:Yes, Kevin Mitnick.

01:01:38Guest:I love him.

01:01:39Marc:I love him too.

01:01:41Guest:And of course, I was asked, why do you expose him in the film and give him a platform?

01:01:48Guest:Hasn't he done damage?

01:01:49Guest:Actually, he hasn't done real damage because he never sold any of the goodies that he hacked.

01:01:56Guest:He never did it for profit.

01:01:57Guest:He did it for trophies.

01:01:59Marc:I love that moment.

01:01:59Guest:And besides, we have to consider this man has spent five years in federal prison, one year in complete isolation.

01:02:11Guest:How old was he, like 20?

01:02:12Guest:He was very young.

01:02:13Guest:At the time, he was very young.

01:02:16Guest:I mean, he was 19, and he was the most famous and most wanted of all hackers.

01:02:22Guest:He was made an example of.

01:02:23Guest:And he has been brought to justice.

01:02:25Guest:And I do believe in rehabilitation of a criminal.

01:02:30Guest:And by the way, Mitnick today is running a security company that advises you how do you protect your company from intrusions and hacking and stealing and siphoning off.

01:02:44Guest:So he's good at that.

01:02:46Guest:He's a very reliable businessman now.

01:02:49Marc:And also the interesting thing in dealing with the human factor was just how much he knew had to do with his ability to coax information out of people on a human level to get into that.

01:03:02Guest:There were always better hackers.

01:03:04Guest:I mean, technically, there were better ones.

01:03:06Guest:But he was the one who could bamboozle you out of your wits.

01:03:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:12Guest:And you would give away secrets that you would never give away.

01:03:15Guest:He has it in 11 minutes flat.

01:03:18Guest:Yes.

01:03:18Guest:In 11 minutes, he gets all the secret code of a new Motorola cell phone at the time.

01:03:26Marc:That's an eternal human archetype, the smooth talker.

01:03:30Marc:Right?

01:03:31Guest:Yeah, no, he has, and he says it very well.

01:03:33Guest:He does have the gift of gab.

01:03:36Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:37Guest:I like this expression.

01:03:38Marc:Now, when you make it seems that your output of documentaries in the last decade or so has been a lot.

01:03:44Marc:And, you know, you make a lot of big feature films as well.

01:03:48Marc:What is more the passion?

01:03:50Marc:Is it just a different approach?

01:03:51Marc:Do you see them as equal?

01:03:53Guest:No, there's a slightly different approach, although everything is movies for me.

01:04:01Guest:And when you poke into the question, I can give you a statistical answer.

01:04:07Guest:At the moment, I have four finished films all ready for release.

01:04:12Guest:On the 19th of August, it's Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World.

01:04:17Guest:In Telluride, very first days of September, a new documentary on volcanoes.

01:04:25Guest:A few days later, a feature film, Salt and Fire, which I shot in Bolivia about a mysterious hostage taking.

01:04:32Guest:And I also have a big epic feature film out which is called Queen of the Desert.

01:04:41Guest:So two feature films ready for release, two documentaries ready for release.

01:04:46Guest:And my next projects are basically all at the moment feature film projects.

01:04:51Guest:But it doesn't really matter.

01:04:54Guest:Don't start to count and don't go into statistics.

01:04:57Marc:No, I was just wondering, like, in terms of your approach to them and what you can get out of them, are the feature films, are they your scripts, both of them?

01:05:04Guest:Feature films are always my own scripts, with very rare exceptions.

01:05:08Marc:So when, like, just in the craft of doing both of them,

01:05:12Marc:What is the essential thrill or search when you write a film and direct a film and you have complete control as opposed to when you are putting together footage of interactions?

01:05:22Guest:But I also write, of course, a documentary and I somehow stylize them and I stage them.

01:05:31Guest:Like, for example, the appearance of Buddhist monks at the skyline of Chicago and musing about have they all left...

01:05:41Guest:for, I mean, the inhabitants, millions of inhabitants of Chicago for a colony on Mars because it looks very lifeless.

01:05:50Guest:There's no movement, nothing around.

01:05:52Guest:But were they just there or did you put them there?

01:05:54Guest:No.

01:05:55Guest:By the way,

01:05:56Guest:If they had been just entering their bus, I would have asked them, please, can you step out from my camera once more and please do the tweeting that you did before.

01:06:07Guest:So that's the nature of my kind of documentaries.

01:06:11Guest:I do it for...

01:06:12Guest:enhancement of a deeper truth.

01:06:14Guest:Something that's quite beautiful out there and something that connects us to poetry.

01:06:25Guest:I like to take audiences, and I'm speaking now of documentaries,

01:06:29Guest:I take them left and right and I take them right into the landscape of sheer illumination and poetry.

01:06:39Guest:And you see, I claim the right of trespassing

01:06:44Guest:If I can take you, the audience, into the landscape of poetry, I do any form of trespassing easily.

01:06:53Guest:For example, at the end of my film Cave of Forgotten Dreams, which is a film about...

01:07:00Guest:A Paleolithic cave recently discovered with cave paintings of phenomenal beauty and quality made something like 32,000 years ago.

01:07:10Guest:And there's a postscript.

01:07:12Guest:And the postscript is about mutant albino radioactive crocodiles.

01:07:20Guest:And I'm going completely wild.

01:07:22Guest:And the audiences love it.

01:07:24Guest:And it has to do, obviously, it is connected to the film loosely, it has to do with perception.

01:07:31Guest:How did humans, like us, there were Homo sapiens, how did they perceive their paintings?

01:07:39Guest:How do we today, in the 21st century, perceive these paintings?

01:07:44Guest:And how would a crocodile, an albino crocodile, in a biotope nearby, near a nuclear reactor, how do they, when they escape and enter the cave, see these paintings?

01:07:58Guest:And by the way, as crazy as it may sound, there's this biotope for tourists with hundreds of crocodiles.

01:08:07Guest:Five of them escaped last winter, or at the beginning of winter.

01:08:11Guest:There was a huge hunt with...

01:08:14Guest:For the crocodiles.

01:08:15Guest:Huge hunt, including helicopters searching for them.

01:08:19Guest:Somehow, some of them were found in a harvested cornfield, in a frozen harvested cornfield.

01:08:28Guest:And one of them is still at large, unaccounted.

01:08:33Guest:Unaccounted of.

01:08:34Marc:Unaccounted crocodiles.

01:08:35Guest:So my wildest fantasies are overtaken by something real.

01:08:40Marc:Yeah, or prophetic.

01:08:42Marc:But like the poetry, like I read some of the book that you wrote in the early 70s of walking on ice.

01:08:50Guest:Of walking in ice.

01:08:51Marc:In ice.

01:08:53Marc:And that was a fairly astounding poetic achievement that just the way you were engaging in the life that you were moving towards.

01:09:03Marc:It obviously was in the wake of an ill friend, but it was essentially poetry.

01:09:08Okay.

01:09:09Guest:Yes, you see it correctly.

01:09:11Guest:It was born out of a certain necessity, not just sitting down in front of some empty paper and then starting to write poetry.

01:09:21Guest:I was traveling on foot at the beginning of winter from Munich to Paris because my mentor, an old woman, Lotte Eisner, was dying.

01:09:30Guest:And I wouldn't allow her to die by just coming on foot.

01:09:34Guest:She wouldn't die.

01:09:35Guest:Actually, she was out of hospital when I arrived.

01:09:39Guest:And I know that these written texts like Of Walking in Ice and another book, which is very intense, it's called Conquest of the Useless.

01:09:53Guest:They will outlive my films.

01:09:55Yeah.

01:09:55Marc:Yeah?

01:09:56Marc:Why do you think that?

01:09:58Guest:Because it's a more direct sort of expression.

01:10:02Guest:You only have a pen and paper in between you and what you are in your essence.

01:10:10Guest:In filmmaking, there's always finances and organization and technical things, camera and mixing and psychology of actors, and you just name it.

01:10:21Guest:So there are many layers in between.

01:10:24Guest:And besides, I think there's no one who writes prose as I do today.

01:10:33Guest:There's no one.

01:10:35Guest:And I say that probably in complete misjudgment.

01:10:43Marc:So be it.

01:10:44Marc:Why don't you do more of it?

01:10:45Guest:I'm asking myself the same question, and some of my best friends tell me so.

01:10:51Guest:But I have too many things going on.

01:10:55Guest:As I said, I'm producing very fast nowadays, and I do things that I haven't done so much before.

01:11:03Guest:I'm acting, for example, including as a real villain in Jack Reacher.

01:11:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:11:11Guest:Do you like it?

01:11:12Guest:Yes, because I was good.

01:11:15Guest:I was really good in it, and I was paid handsomely to be as frightening as it gets.

01:11:23Guest:And man, am I frightening.

01:11:26Marc:But did you always, I mean, you took a long time to act, having been working with actors forever.

01:11:32Guest:It comes easily to me now.

01:11:34Guest:Now, right?

01:11:35Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:11:36Marc:Why, because you're not self-conscious or...

01:11:38Guest:No, I think it was always in me in a way.

01:11:41Guest:And I always understood actors on a very deep level until I actually understood much of the technical side.

01:11:50Guest:There's, of course, there's craft.

01:11:52Guest:Yeah.

01:11:53Guest:There's craft in it.

01:11:54Guest:Sure.

01:11:55Guest:And you can see it when I recently published a masterclass as a company that does masterclasses.

01:12:02Guest:And I watched just to see how the format functions.

01:12:06Guest:I watched two actors, Dustin Hoffman and Kevin Spacey.

01:12:11Guest:And Dustin Hoffman, more than anyone, speaks about craft.

01:12:15Guest:And very, very interesting.

01:12:17Guest:He's really good at explaining it.

01:12:20Guest:So you learned from him?

01:12:22Guest:No, because I saw it only very recently and I did all my acting before I had seen.

01:12:29Guest:But very interesting.

01:12:32Marc:Now I want to watch it.

01:12:34Guest:It's worthwhile because it is more densely packed than any of the other master classes that are available out there.

01:12:45Marc:But with or without craft, having worked for years with Kinski, who you were close with, and many other different actors, do you do agree that some people just have a natural thing for it, right?

01:12:57Marc:I mean, there are some people that just belong in that profession.

01:13:01Yeah.

01:13:01Guest:But you should not forget that Kinski was in a way extremely into rehearsing in his early times.

01:13:15Guest:He would improve his pronunciation, his speech, his stage voice.

01:13:21Guest:his ductus of language.

01:13:25Guest:I mean, he was fanatically rehearsing.

01:13:29Guest:And he always denied it.

01:13:31Guest:No, I'm a genius fallen out of the skies and nobody's ever been like this before.

01:13:37Guest:And when you told him, Klaus, you were wonderful, you were great, he would scream, no.

01:13:45Guest:No, I was not wonderful.

01:13:49Guest:I was not great.

01:13:51Guest:I was monumental.

01:13:53Guest:I was apical.

01:13:55Guest:So that's his answer.

01:13:58Guest:But do not forget, for example, great icons in acting like Marilyn Monroe.

01:14:08Guest:It looks, when you look at some like it hot,

01:14:11Guest:As if it came with complete ease.

01:14:15Guest:And she, when you look at her professional life, was fanatically rehearsing and training herself.

01:14:23Guest:She was a workhorse of great intensity.

01:14:29Marc:Yeah, and she worked with the method, right?

01:14:32Guest:Oh, forget about the method.

01:14:35Guest:She only was declined after she was with the method.

01:14:41Guest:And Marlon Brander only declined after he had been with the method.

01:14:45Guest:So I would see it only with a great amount of doubt.

01:14:53Guest:But she was a real, real workhorse.

01:14:57Guest:It's a little bit like when you watch Olympics and you see the swimmers.

01:15:03Guest:Yeah.

01:15:04Guest:I mean, they swim with great grace.

01:15:06Guest:Yes.

01:15:07Guest:And fluidity.

01:15:08Guest:Yes.

01:15:09Guest:And at the same time, it's 10 years of training each day, swimming at least 10 kilometers in training.

01:15:18Guest:Yes.

01:15:19Guest:Not a single day.

01:15:20Marc:Right.

01:15:20Guest:Without 10 kilometers.

01:15:22Marc:Right.

01:15:23Marc:You got to put the work in.

01:15:24Marc:Yes.

01:15:25Marc:Well, in Salt and Fire, you work with Michael Shannon, who I like a lot.

01:15:28Guest:Oh, he's the best of his generation.

01:15:31Marc:Yeah.

01:15:33Marc:Clearly the best.

01:15:34Guest:There's no one like him.

01:15:35Marc:Yeah.

01:15:36Guest:I love the man.

01:15:38Marc:With him, do you see the work?

01:15:42Guest:I see...

01:15:44Guest:Somebody of extraordinary gift and an extraordinary presence.

01:15:50Guest:You see presence on screen.

01:15:52Guest:In a way, it is inexplicable.

01:15:54Guest:There's something mysterious about it.

01:15:58Marc:Because not everybody has it, obviously.

01:16:00Guest:Yes, some sort of charisma.

01:16:03Guest:It comes from somewhere else and we cannot even name it.

01:16:07Marc:Yes, and that fits into the poetry.

01:16:10Marc:So when you talk about Lottie Eisner, this was the early 70s, and you call her your mentor.

01:16:19Marc:So what did you learn from her early on that sort of guided you through your first films and whatnot?

01:16:25Guest:No, it's not that she taught me anything.

01:16:29Guest:However, she put me in context with the silent movies of the Weimar Epoch, Murnau, Fritz Lang.

01:16:37Guest:And then later, it was her encouragement.

01:16:40Guest:The encouragement from my first film on, she said…

01:16:44Guest:There's somebody out there who is extraordinary in her opinion.

01:16:49Guest:And she was in very close contact with Fritz Lang, who lived in Hollywood at that time.

01:16:57Guest:And she wrote letters to him and she said, Fritz, you have always said, after the barbarism of the Third Reich, of the Nazis, there cannot be real, legitimate, great German cinema again.

01:17:11Guest:Never, ever.

01:17:12Guest:And she said to him, Fritz, you know what?

01:17:14Guest:I send you a print of a film by a young kid who made a film, Signs of Life, his first feature film.

01:17:24Guest:And she sent him the print.

01:17:26Guest:And Fritz Lang saw it and he said, Lotte, you are right.

01:17:30Guest:Yes, there's something coming.

01:17:32Marc:Yeah.

01:17:33Guest:So it was encouragement.

01:17:35Marc:That's an amazing thing.

01:17:36Guest:Because at the time, nobody wanted to see my films, including Aguirre, The Wrath of God.

01:17:42Guest:Nobody wanted to see the film.

01:17:45Guest:Why?

01:17:45Guest:I cannot explain it.

01:17:50Guest:I don't know why.

01:17:51Guest:Sometimes it happens.

01:17:53Guest:It took three, four, five years until the film all of a sudden had its breakthrough.

01:17:58Marc:And do you think that was because of Germany, or do you think it was because of you?

01:18:02Guest:No.

01:18:03Guest:The film was such a novelty in its raw approach, and it was not at the horizon of anyone.

01:18:13Guest:And sometimes it's very strange how these things happen.

01:18:16Guest:I keep thinking about Franz Kafka, the novel The Castle.

01:18:23Guest:I think during his lifetime, 32 copies were sold.

01:18:28Guest:And we know that at least he himself, out of embarrassment, bought 10 copies himself.

01:18:38Guest:You never know.

01:18:40Marc:Now, at the time, was there a community?

01:18:43Marc:Are you friends with Wim Wenders and Fassbender?

01:18:46Marc:Were you contemporary?

01:18:47Marc:Not really friends.

01:18:48Guest:We respected each other very deeply.

01:18:51Guest:Yeah.

01:18:51Guest:But we knew our styles were different.

01:18:55Guest:Our subjects were different.

01:18:57Guest:Yeah.

01:18:58Guest:Not like neorealism in Italy after the war, where there was a common style and common social sort of agenda in their movies.

01:19:09Yeah.

01:19:09Marc:But it was considered a movement in a way, right?

01:19:13Marc:Was it considered German new cinema?

01:19:16Guest:Yeah, let's not argue whether it was a movement.

01:19:19Guest:No, no, no.

01:19:20Guest:Some sort of a renaissance.

01:19:21Marc:But you were around each other.

01:19:23Marc:You were in the same world.

01:19:25Guest:Yes, but... Different.

01:19:28Guest:And we understood we would be perceived as a movement which none of us liked.

01:19:34Marc:Sure, right.

01:19:35Marc:Did you like their movies?

01:19:37No.

01:19:37Guest:Not all of them, but yes, sure.

01:19:42Guest:There are very, very fine movies from that time.

01:19:44Guest:And you know, when I did Aguirre the Wrath of God, I took eight prints.

01:19:49Guest:I mean, 35 millimeter prints, ugly to carry and heavy.

01:19:53Guest:I took them to Peru and I rented a theater and I showed them for free.

01:19:59Guest:Yeah.

01:20:00Guest:And it was a phenomenal success.

01:20:03Guest:So many people were excited about them.

01:20:05Guest:Three of the films were films by Fassbinder, for example.

01:20:10Guest:And Fassbinder even didn't know that I took them.

01:20:13Guest:And only a year and a half later, he said, well, Werner…

01:20:17Guest:What is that?

01:20:19Guest:You came to my office and you saw three prints sitting there in the corner.

01:20:23Guest:And you were the one who took them.

01:20:24Guest:You were the one.

01:20:25Guest:Confess.

01:20:26Guest:I said, Reiner Werner, yes, I confess.

01:20:28Guest:I took them.

01:20:29Guest:I showed them.

01:20:30Guest:And you know what?

01:20:31Guest:He just came at me with this intimidating look.

01:20:35Guest:And then he stretched his arms and hugged me very hard.

01:20:38Guest:And that was it.

01:20:39Guest:That's great.

01:20:40Guest:Yeah.

01:20:40Guest:You took them.

01:20:43Guest:Yes, of course I took them because they were very, very fine movies and they had to be shown.

01:20:49Guest:Which movies?

01:20:50Guest:I don't really recall, but one was, I think his second film he made, Katzlmacher.

01:20:56Guest:A very, very interesting film.

01:20:59Marc:Well, we began to talk about even dwarves started small, which was, you know, you said darkly funny, which it was just right away.

01:21:08Marc:Yeah.

01:21:09Marc:Because I was trying to look for something in that film that, you know, was a portal into something that lasted your entire creative vision.

01:21:21Marc:Do you see that in that movie?

01:21:22Marc:Do you see the beginning of something that you continue to try to resolve or incorporate?

01:21:29Guest:No, I don't have a real agenda.

01:21:33Guest:However, I know that I do have a coherent worldview.

01:21:39Guest:And this film, lo and behold, is essentially somehow within my worldview and within my curiosities to expand my worldview.

01:21:51Guest:Yes.

01:21:52Guest:And...

01:21:54Guest:When you see the film, without having any credits, you would notice very quickly, this is a film by me.

01:22:02Guest:Of course.

01:22:03Guest:As soon as you hear you talk.

01:22:06Guest:Even if it were only in written captions, you would get the message.

01:22:11Marc:But I guess what I saw was that by using dwarves and by using little people, that there was a built-in vulnerability to what was essentially a fairly harrowing story.

01:22:21Guest:They do not appear as midgets or as dwarves in the film because the entire world is only little people.

01:22:30Guest:Whereas the Cadillac that drives by or the motorcycle or the chairs or the nuptial bed are of size for us.

01:22:42Guest:But all of a sudden, all these daily tools of everyday life become like monsters.

01:22:50Marc:Yes, absolutely.

01:22:51Guest:all of a sudden all these goodies become monstrous.

01:22:55Marc:Right.

01:22:55Marc:So that kind of moves through.

01:22:58Guest:They are the regular size.

01:23:00Guest:The chair, the motorcycle, everything looks like a monster all of a sudden.

01:23:06Marc:Right.

01:23:07Marc:And when you went up to the first Volcano movie, you were releasing another Volcano movie?

01:23:13Guest:Well, I'm just finishing a film, Into the Inferno.

01:23:17Marc:Yes.

01:23:18Guest:Which will be shown in three weeks from now.

01:23:21Marc:And what was the one that I watched?

01:23:22Guest:Telleride.

01:23:23Guest:La Souffria, about a film about a volcano that was about to explode.

01:23:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:23:28Guest:In the Caribbean.

01:23:29Guest:Right.

01:23:30Guest:And I went there because I was fascinated by learning that...

01:23:36Guest:There were very, very dramatic, quick evacuations of the entire island, 75,000 people.

01:23:44Guest:And one single poor farmer who lived at the slope of the volcano refused to be evacuated.

01:23:50Marc:The guy with the cat.

01:23:51Guest:Yes, and we had to wake him up while we started filming.

01:23:56Guest:And deeply philosophical, a very poor black farmer who lived on the slope of the volcano.

01:24:02Guest:And we knew it would explode with the force of six, seven, eight atomic bombs, Hiroshima size.

01:24:09Marc:But you knew you might be there for that, too.

01:24:12Guest:In a way, yes, but I was somehow prude.

01:24:16Guest:No, that was one or two times in my films, in my work, in my working life, I took some sort of blind lottery.

01:24:27Guest:Otherwise, I'm a very, very prudent, safety, security-oriented person.

01:24:34Guest:And I can read the difficulties and I can read the dangers very, very well, better than others.

01:24:42Guest:The moment we were done filming, we would flee as fast and as far as we could.

01:24:49Guest:And we went up on the volcano a second time, but only because of a bizarre coincidence.

01:24:57Guest:One of the two cinematographers, Ed Lockman, a wonderful, great cinematographer in the industry, he lost his glasses.

01:25:08Guest:Right.

01:25:08Guest:Up on the volcano.

01:25:10Guest:And I said, Edward, you are so helpless down there and we can't get you any glasses.

01:25:16Guest:You know what?

01:25:17Guest:I'm going to return up there and I'm finding them.

01:25:20Guest:And I said, give me your camera.

01:25:22Guest:And he said, no, I'll come with you.

01:25:24Guest:And Schmidt-Reitwein, the other cinematographer, also came along.

01:25:28Guest:And once we had reached the summit, it was completely changed.

01:25:32Guest:It was plowed over and the fissure had opened miles deep and toxic gases coming, protruding from it.

01:25:41Guest:So there was no way to find his glasses.

01:25:45Guest:But we kept on filming for a while and then fled again.

01:25:48Marc:Yeah.

01:25:49Marc:And do you, I got to ask you a couple of questions before I, specific ones before I forget them.

01:25:57Marc:In Grizzly Man, which was primarily assembling, right?

01:26:02Guest:No, half the film is shot by me.

01:26:04Guest:Right.

01:26:04Marc:Oh, that's right.

01:26:05Marc:And then you had a lot of his stuff.

01:26:07Guest:His, Timothy Treadwell's footage, yes.

01:26:10Marc:There's a beat in there that I think changed like that to me was one of the best moments in film for me because it was.

01:26:17Marc:And I think you must have been aware of it that of course you were.

01:26:20Marc:But there was that moment where you sort of discuss how these animals are not.

01:26:26Marc:They don't have personalities per se that they're wild animals.

01:26:29Guest:Not anthropomorphic sort of qualities and not the Disney World qualities as being fluffy little creatures that you can cuddle and sing a song to them.

01:26:46Marc:Yeah, and then there was at some point, I think shortly after, where you cut to the face of the bear that probably killed him.

01:26:52Marc:Yes.

01:26:53Marc:And it was impossible as a viewer not to project evil.

01:26:57Right.

01:26:57Marc:That because you had established that you can't, and you knew it.

01:27:01Marc:I knew it logically.

01:27:02Marc:You can't anthropomorphize.

01:27:03Marc:But when I did see that bear's face, my brain could not, it wrestled with it.

01:27:09Marc:I'm like that.

01:27:10Guest:But do not forget my commentary.

01:27:13Guest:In all the faces of all bears that I encountered,

01:27:17Guest:I do not see any sympathy.

01:27:19Guest:I do not see any... I don't remember exactly.

01:27:26Guest:There's only the monumental indifference.

01:27:29Guest:Maybe the only interest is interest in food.

01:27:33Guest:Yeah.

01:27:35Guest:Yeah.

01:27:35Guest:No affinity, no affection.

01:27:37Guest:Right.

01:27:38Guest:No hostility.

01:27:40Guest:Right.

01:27:40Guest:It's just monumental indifference.

01:27:43Guest:Yeah.

01:27:43Guest:And that's what you see in the face of the bear.

01:27:46Guest:I put it in the right context.

01:27:47Marc:You did.

01:27:48Marc:Yes.

01:27:49Marc:I want to talk about the PSA that you did.

01:27:52Marc:Because that documentary is brutal.

01:27:55Marc:The texting and driving.

01:27:57Marc:Yes.

01:27:57Marc:I don't know how.

01:27:58Marc:I think that's a great little film.

01:28:01Yeah.

01:28:01Guest:It is.

01:28:02Guest:I have no doubt and I can quantify it.

01:28:06Guest:Millions of people saw it on YouTube.

01:28:10Guest:And it's way too long for YouTube.

01:28:12Guest:YouTube is made for the 60 seconds cat videos, crazy cats.

01:28:17Guest:Or anything that's over eight minutes long is prohibitive.

01:28:22Guest:And here millions and millions saw it.

01:28:24Guest:And it has triggered legislation.

01:28:26Guest:in various states of the United States.

01:28:29Guest:And it is being shown now on 40,000 high schools across the United States.

01:28:37Guest:And I think, maybe I'm wrong, but I think it has become a mandatory viewing for those kids who do that driving test, driver's license in high school.

01:28:50Guest:And many, of course, do it like that.

01:28:52Guest:And it has had an enormous, enormous effect.

01:28:58Guest:And people tell me you must have saved many, many lives.

01:29:03Guest:Instinctively, I know, yes, I did, but you cannot quantify it.

01:29:08Guest:You can quantify only events.

01:29:11Guest:You see, you can quantify accidents.

01:29:14Guest:You can quantify fatalities, but you cannot quantify events that did not take place.

01:29:21Guest:You cannot quantify how many times did you miss the woman of your life because she left the plaza 60 seconds before you arrived.

01:29:35Guest:So you cannot quantify it.

01:29:37Guest:However, there's an indirect way to see the effect, and that's the statistical curve that has altered its direction, coinciding with the release of this YouTube video.

01:29:55Marc:It's interesting because on some level the way you talk about it, it could be one of the most important films you've ever made.

01:30:00Guest:It depends on what you call important.

01:30:05Guest:In practical terms, yes.

01:30:07Marc:Okay.

01:30:08Guest:In practical effect, yes.

01:30:10Okay.

01:30:10Marc:Yeah.

01:30:11Marc:Do you ever think of your films in that way?

01:30:13Marc:No.

01:30:14Guest:No, but in this case, I knew there was a clear goal.

01:30:17Guest:Right.

01:30:18Guest:And let's perform as good as I can.

01:30:20Guest:And I would do a public, how do you call it, service announcement.

01:30:25Guest:Yeah, public service announcement.

01:30:26Guest:But with all the intensity and all the craft that I can muster.

01:30:32Guest:You see, I do not give lectures or little charity.

01:30:36Guest:When I give, I give myself.

01:30:38Guest:And you know who said that?

01:30:40Guest:It was Walt Whitman who said that once.

01:30:43Guest:And I have adopted it.

01:30:44Marc:What inspires you, and this will be the end of it, to make a documentary?

01:30:50Marc:I mean, how does it, like Grizzly Man or this Lo and Behold or the one about the monks as well.

01:30:58Marc:I mean, how do you find the topics?

01:31:01Marc:Where does it come?

01:31:02Guest:Very often they stumble into me.

01:31:04Guest:And I have never been like somebody who plans a career.

01:31:11Guest:And after I'm finishing a film, I'm looking at the New York Times bestselling list of novels.

01:31:18Guest:Ah, yeah, that one I should make into a movie.

01:31:20Guest:It never has happened like this.

01:31:22Guest:Very often films have found me.

01:31:24Guest:Many times I come as uninvited guests, like the burglars at night.

01:31:33Guest:But...

01:31:35Guest:Since I'm a storyteller, I would instantly, instantly know this is big.

01:31:42Guest:This is so big, I have to do it.

01:31:45Guest:And it happened exactly like that with Grizzly Man, for example.

01:31:49Guest:Do you miss film?

01:31:50Guest:Like actual film?

01:31:52Guest:Celluloid.

01:31:53Guest:Now I'm not nostalgic.

01:31:54Guest:I still love it.

01:31:56Guest:Yeah.

01:31:57Guest:Of course I love it.

01:31:58Guest:Yeah.

01:31:58Guest:But digital filmmaking has allowed me to work faster.

01:32:06Guest:Yeah.

01:32:07Guest:And to work less expensively.

01:32:10Mm-hmm.

01:32:11Guest:So that's why all of a sudden I'm coming out with four films, all of them ready for distribution.

01:32:20Guest:The system of distribution is too slow for my output.

01:32:24Marc:Right.

01:32:25Marc:What did you lose with celluloid?

01:32:30Marc:What do you lose?

01:32:31Guest:Well, the kind of magic of the flicker of 24 frames in a theater.

01:32:40Guest:And celluloid, you always have to understand it as a layer, a three-dimensional thin layer of emulsion.

01:32:50Guest:Yeah.

01:32:50Guest:that stores your information, whereas a digital film is only a file of zeros and ones.

01:33:01Guest:And there's a strange, we sense that there's a different life to it.

01:33:06Marc:Right.

01:33:08Marc:And also I imagine that the editing process is a bit more decisive.

01:33:13Guest:When you are in celluloid, you better come to some conclusions quickly.

01:33:18Guest:And what I see today, digital editing, there are directors who don't know what they are doing and they create 22 parallel versions and never can decide.

01:33:28Guest:But I'm editing almost as fast as I'm thinking.

01:33:32Marc:So that you can only do on digital.

01:33:33Guest:Because I do not have to search for the small reel of film and look for making some pen marks on it and glue it, splice it together and feed it into a system and roll it to the right moment.

01:33:49Guest:So I'm editing much, much, much faster nowadays.

01:33:52Marc:Closer to writing.

01:33:53Guest:Closer to writing in a way, yes.

01:33:56Marc:Now, just in terms of film, I know that you were close with Roger Ebert and that what was once a fairly sort of, there were a few champions of the cultural and artistic importance of film.

01:34:11Marc:Do you feel that it still has the proper place in the world of art?

01:34:20Marc:Do you feel that film is still being reckoned with in the proper way, culturally and critically?

01:34:26Guest:When he was afflicted by illness and he could not speak anymore, he would use the Internet and a laptop for creating his voice.

01:34:39Guest:It was digitally reconfigured and it was his voice that would answer to you.

01:34:47Guest:So the glory of the Internet.

01:34:49Guest:At the same time, he said to me, Werner, watch out.

01:34:53Guest:There's something.

01:34:54Guest:I will die soon.

01:34:55Guest:you better be vigilant and watch out and you have to be a guardian.

01:35:00Guest:Read.

01:35:02Guest:And I said, Roger, of course I read and I keep postulating, read, read, read, read, read, but I mean books.

01:35:09Guest:And at the same time, he kept saying,

01:35:14Guest:Kids, young kids, should go out and dig a hole in the ground.

01:35:22Guest:Period.

01:35:24Guest:And I find it beautiful.

01:35:25Guest:God bless his soul.

01:35:28Guest:Roger Ebert.

01:35:31Marc:That's a nice closer.

01:35:32Marc:Thank you, Werner.

01:35:33Marc:Thank you.

01:35:38Marc:Sweet ending.

01:35:41Marc:What a thrill and what a privilege to talk to Werner Herzog.

01:35:45Marc:That movie is really great.

01:35:48Marc:Well, you know, if you're a fan of his, you know that his documentaries are always powerful and poetic and disturbing and beautiful.

01:35:55Marc:Lo and behold, Reveries of the Connected World in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th.

01:36:01Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all that stuff.

01:36:04Marc:Okay.

01:36:06guitar solo

01:36:44Marc:Fuck it.

01:36:46Marc:Boomer lives!