Episode 718 - Deon Cole / Dweezil Zappa
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what the fuckadelics what is happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf thank you thank you for joining me exciting show they're always exciting i swear to god
Marc:People ask me, which one do you like the best?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Every time I come into this garage with somebody who is 90% of the time a complete stranger to me in real life, I may know their work, I may be familiar, but I don't know what's going to happen, and it's always exciting.
Marc:Every time I come in here with a guest, it's like an exciting ride of some kind.
Marc:But on today's show...
Marc:For instance, like Dion Cole is here, the comedian and writer, who I met many times, but for whatever reason didn't quite register properly.
Marc:And also going to do a little follow-up interview with...
Marc:with Mr. Dweezil Zappa.
Marc:There's some issues at hand between him, his work, his father's music, and the Zappa Family Trust that is now being overseen by his brother, Ahmet.
Marc:It's an emotional situation.
Marc:It's a difficult situation.
Marc:And Dweezil wanted to talk a bit, so that's going to happen.
Marc:And thank you for all the feedback on the Neil Young episode.
Marc:I'm fucking thrilled that everybody, including hardcore Neil Young fans, were so into it.
Marc:I was nervous about it.
Marc:I didn't quite, I don't know if I expressed how nervous because I tried to not diminish or overrun anybody's experience with my own dumb emotional expectations, but I was thrilled that
Marc:That the feedback was so positive and you all enjoyed that conversation because I sure did.
Marc:I mean, I really am grateful and I'm one of the luckiest people in the world that I have people like the amazing Neil Young come over to my house, walk through my house, look at my dirty cat box.
Marc:I try to keep it clean, but sometimes they sneak a shit in there.
Marc:Walk past my laundry, which is where the washer and dryer is, out the back door, down the shitty steps, into the barn doors of this place.
Marc:this now what i believe is a magical place a magical space this fucking garage and sit down with me and and and watch me and feel me try to uh engage in a nice conversation that's what happens here
Marc:So look, folks, I want to preface this a little bit.
Marc:You know, Dweezil Zappa, it's been pretty public.
Marc:You can sort of look it up in the New York Times coverage of what's been happening with him, his music, his father's music, a sort of protracted legal battle with the family estate, the Zappa Family Trust, which is overseen by his brother.
Marc:You can catch up on the legalese of all that.
Marc:But I had a sort of an emotional talk here with with with Dweezil and the latest development in this this horrible situation that's pitting family against family, brothers against brothers.
Marc:The latest development is that Dweezil can't use the name Zappa plays Zappa for his tour.
Marc:He can't use Dweezil Zappa plays Frank Zappa either.
Marc:This is the new revelation.
Marc:So he's changed it to Dweezil Zappa plays whatever the fuck he wants.
Marc:The cease and desist tour.
Marc:So you can go to dweezilzappaworld.com for tour info.
Marc:And this is...
Marc:Dweezil Zappa is the only Zappa offspring that is the legacy of his father's music in the truest sense of the word.
Marc:As a guitar virtuoso and as somebody who has spent his life mastering and continuing to try to master and put out into the world the music of Frank Zappa, he's the guy.
Marc:He's the one with the talent, and he's the one being pressed by.
Marc:bothers me he's also he also hooked me up with this doc eat that question frank zappa in his own words comes out tomorrow okay uh we talk a little bit about it and i saw it and if you can't wrap your brain around what is frank zappa this is a great montage of actual interview footage that spans probably about 30 or 40 years of frank talking to other people about frank about politics about art about music uh
Marc:And it's pretty fucking great.
Marc:Frank Zappel is a real American genius.
Marc:And now I'm going to talk to his son, Dweezil, an amazing guitar player.
Marc:So, Dweezil, you're back.
Marc:And I know last time that after we talked, we didn't talk about family matters, but now family matters have become public.
Marc:And I don't have some sort of perverse fascination.
Marc:I feel like there's some sort of tremendous injustice being done here.
Guest:You know, here's the deal.
Guest:I mean, there's no reason for me to be talking about this stuff in public other than the fact that we're getting nowhere in private with lawyers and all this kind of stuff.
Guest:And then it became public with the public letter that Amit wrote.
Marc:After the New York Times article that basically, like, what are some of the issues about
Guest:All right, so let's sort of set this up so anyone who's listening can kind of follow.
Guest:Because it's complicated.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:Your mom passed away.
Guest:Well, let's go back even before that.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I started a decade ago playing my father's music because I'm a huge fan of the music, and I wanted his music to be heard by new generations, also the core fans that have been excited about it and supported it all these years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was working under the name Zappa Play Zappa.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now, Zappa Play Zappa got trademarked by Gail Zappa, who owns the family, Zappa Family Trust.
Guest:Your mother.
Guest:Yes, my mother.
Guest:So she apparently did this under the pretense that anyone with the last name Zappa could, if they wanted to, go out on tour and be Zappa Play Zappa.
Marc:Right.
Marc:As long as they paid her.
Guest:Well, there's that.
Guest:We can get to that.
Guest:But the whole thing about that is nobody else in my family really plays an instrument or could perform a complete show in any way under that moniker.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That aside, there was a contract that was created by my mother that required me to pay $1,000 a show every time I played the music of Frank Zappa.
Guest:And I was supposed to, at a certain point, get some of that money rebated back to me.
Guest:I don't know why the contract was written that way, but she, I think, tried to write it that way in the sense that if she was going to try to charge anybody else thousands of dollars to play the music, she should show that she's charging her own son.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:and so at the same time there was a merch uh you know t-shirt merch agreement where she took the lion's share 60 and i was to get 40 of your shirts of zappa plays zappa any any shirts that were being sold at the but even if they weren't like frank shirts if they were like your like dweezil shirts she'd get a piece of that because of the name yeah
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:She was just taking the lion's share.
Guest:Did she get along with your mother?
Guest:Well, you can see that it was difficult to get along with her.
Guest:I mean, she was... I mean, it's like the word solipsism is something that comes to mind because she lived in this world where it just seemed to be everything about her and only her thoughts and the way that she...
Guest:She just didn't seem to care about what anybody else thought about things.
Marc:But after Frank passed, you know, the way she handled the estate, which I imagine went all directly to her.
Guest:Well, it gets even more complicated, but let's get into that part in one second.
Guest:So we'll finish off the contract part of it was for 10 years, she didn't uphold her end of this contract.
Guest:And so at a certain point when I was paying this money, I was getting nothing rebated and I wasn't getting my share of the merch at all.
Marc:You paid the money to the estate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That was your responsibility.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And she would have taken you to court if you didn't.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the whole thing is after 10 years, people say, well, then why didn't you take her to court?
Guest:Who wants to take their own mother to court?
Guest:You know, it's just not something that I really wanted to do.
Guest:But I certainly was on her case every year about, hey, you haven't accounted to me ever for the merch.
Guest:And this really isn't OK.
Guest:This is an injustice, as you said.
Guest:I've given them an option of how they can make things right, which would be to give me all the guitars that Gail has repossessed.
Guest:You know, I was given Frank's guitars and then she repossessed them.
Guest:Legally, she repossessed them?
Marc:According to her.
Marc:I just don't after a certain point, you know, how does and this is a psychological issue, an emotional issue.
Marc:You know, where does she feel in what?
Marc:How are you just an extension of your father's brand?
Marc:And how did she feel entitled to deny you a livelihood when you're out there doing the work?
Guest:In her mind, she wasn't probably doing any of that.
Guest:In her mind, she thought she was protecting Frank and the brand and all of this stuff.
Guest:But if you just really look at what she was doing on a grand scale across the board.
Guest:She ran it into the ground.
Marc:She sold the publishing to all the music and then tried to get them back.
Guest:Well, she didn't sell the publishing.
Guest:What happened is we have so many avenues to explore the madness behind the Zappa Family Trust.
Guest:But if you are the type of individual who has some free time and wants to learn about some of this stuff, one thing you could do is you could go to courtlisten.com, which has the...
Guest:Ricoh Disc versus the Zappa Family Trust, legal.
Guest:It has all the information about the judgment and what happened in the case.
Guest:Now, here's the thing.
Guest:I just went there myself and I was horrified to find out the information that was on there.
Guest:I mean, it's sad and it makes me so upset and angry to see.
Guest:She had told us, my mother, Gail, had told the family and so many others that
Guest:And that Frank had I'm getting upset about this, but she she had told us all that Frank had withheld the digital rights, meaning that when Ricoh Disc was to distribute his catalog.
Guest:that he withheld any kind of rights for downloading or whatever the new digital thing.
Guest:Cause at the time, uh, iTunes and all that stuff wasn't in business yet.
Guest:So she said, yes, you know, Frank had the foresight to do this and, um, they can't put this up on iTunes.
Guest:So of course, when Ryco disc put it up on iTunes, there was this big lawsuit and, um,
Guest:it lasted for almost 20 years.
Guest:And so the thing was, if you go to courtlisten.com, you can see the judgment and you can see the language in the contract.
Guest:And it is so...
Guest:incredibly specific that it was clear that Ricoh Disc did have the digital rights the entire time.
Guest:And here's the thing, Frank actually had a will and it had a very different outcome in terms of who was to do what.
Guest:But that will was according to our mother.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:When Frank died, we didn't really know anything about what the procedure is.
Guest:Nobody came to us and said, OK, here's here's what you need to know about probate.
Guest:Here's what you need to know about this, that or the other.
Guest:None of that was told to us because we were told there was no will.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:By your mother.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But she hid this thing and it was sitting there for 20 plus years only to be discovered recently.
Marc:It was discovered.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And... And it had a very different set of guidelines for how the ZFT was to go.
Guest:But see...
Guest:The thing about that, I'm not here talking about, oh, you know, I didn't get justice on the will or anything like that.
Guest:It's frustrating to learn these things that you go through your life and you're told information by your mother and you expect it to be accurate information.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:only to find that it's just not and i mean there's so many other avenues where this this took place like we were told for years that um frank didn't want to have anything to do with his own family like his brothers and sister and yeah and all that stuff so there was no connection for us with that side of the family at all i recently met frank's brother bobby after not seeing him for 35 years yeah
Guest:And he told me a very different story about how he could never get in touch with Frank, you know, because Frank didn't really ever answer the phone.
Guest:Gail answered the phone.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So even when Frank was really ill the week before he died, Bobby came to Los Angeles and he wasn't able to come and see him.
Guest:And it's just upsetting to me because...
Guest:I didn't know any of this stuff.
Guest:I mean, had I known, you know, I would have said something.
Guest:I would have done something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, the thing about it is the stories I've heard from him are, you know, it's great to actually see him and it's like because he's close in age to Frank and he's related to Frank, it's like almost sitting with Frank now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you can see him and...
Guest:It's just upsetting that he didn't get to be in touch with him.
Guest:But he wrote a great book, which I read, called Growing Up Zappa.
Guest:It's got pictures of him and Frank.
Guest:Did your mom try to stop that book?
Guest:I don't think she had the chance.
Guest:It was cathartic for me to read some of that stuff.
Guest:But it was nice to reconnect with him.
Guest:And it's just, you know.
Marc:So, but where do you put this?
Marc:Like, when you contextualize this whole thing, are you able... Do you just see your... Gail is mentally ill?
Guest:You know, I mean, I try to look at it as... I grew up with really a great childhood.
Guest:I was not...
Guest:exposed to any kind of stuff that had conflict or any of this kind of behavior that I'm now experiencing.
Guest:It was only after Frank passed away that things started to disintegrate within my relationship with my mom, but also within the family itself.
Guest:But, you know, it's interesting because some people have written some things that
Guest:I didn't really know anything about, but I've seen it, especially from people in Italy, which is particularly interesting.
Guest:They liken the behavior that they have seen in this and what they have gathered from the information about what Gail has done over the years, what my mother has done over the years.
Guest:And they say, oh, it's just like the Medea complex.
Guest:I don't know if you know the Medea complex.
Guest:I don't know it specifically, no.
Guest:It's Greek mythology.
Guest:It's a character who was scorned by her husband.
Guest:And because of this deep-seated, deep-rooted pain and suffering that she experienced, she decided to kill their children as a way to get back
Guest:to the person who scorned her.
Guest:So it's all out of spite against Frank.
Guest:Well, because there's, you know, when I read that and I think, well, you know, some of that just feels like maybe there's a parallel in some way because there was times where
Guest:For example, I would be asking her, I said, we need to get some tour dates up on the Zappa.com site.
Guest:And it's been weeks and weeks and weeks.
Guest:And we've been asking, can we just get these tour dates up there?
Guest:And she just would change the subject and say to me,
Guest:I'm not just some some groupie your father fucked you know and I'd be like uh what does that have to do with the tour dates you know right so yeah so she had all this fucking like resentment and hate
Guest:Yeah, I just, you know, at times like that, I was really confused because I'm like, what is the reason behind the delays and all of the obstacles that are created for things?
Guest:It's not just things that were happening for me.
Guest:It was she blocked anybody that really had any interest in Frank's music so frequently.
Guest:I mean, there's so many people in the world that like Frank's music that would like to play it.
Guest:And she just wouldn't allow it.
Guest:So for me, I would have done it differently.
Marc:So what kind of outcome can we hope to get from this?
Guest:At the end of the day, people who like Frank's music are probably concerned, well, what does this have as an effect on us?
Guest:How will it affect the music that comes out, what we get to hear, what we get to see, all that stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know what the answer is to that.
Guest:I just know that there are several things that are going on that that are not consistent in the way that Frank would have done things as far as integrity goes.
Marc:Well, it's so it's so tragic in so many ways.
Marc:Medea complex.
Marc:Aside that, you know, you got this artist who is your father who spent an entire lifetime maintaining integrity, living his own sort of personal universe and life, you know, with with full commitment, full creative genius.
Marc:And now, like, the whole thing has become, you know, fragmented and and and sullied.
Right.
Guest:Well, you know, in a way, the music will, in my opinion, will never be sullied because it stands on its own.
Guest:Of course, yeah.
Guest:And it does what it set out to do.
Guest:But the other stuff can confuse people or turn people off if they're like, oh, I don't want to hear about this.
Guest:Because a lot of people have this idea that, oh, this is trust fund kids that are, you know, golden spoon.
Guest:Do they?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think they do.
Guest:But there is no trust.
Guest:There's something called the Zappa family trust, but there's no money in it.
Marc:But I think most people look at you as a brilliant guitar player that has done great work in your own career.
Marc:And I don't really know what the public profile, like certainly Moon is remembered and also does her creative work.
Marc:But yeah, I didn't really sort of...
Marc:That characterization never struck me.
Guest:I've seen it before with comments from people that they just think, oh, it's rich kids fighting.
Guest:Who gives a shit?
Guest:Let me have the music.
Guest:It's not so easy, it turns out.
Guest:Well, yeah, but yeah, that, that, and, you know, uh, look, I, I work hard to do what I do.
Guest:My wife is a flight attendant.
Guest:We keep that, you know, she keeps her job.
Guest:So we have health insurance, you know, this is, uh, you know, I'm not, I'm not running a lucrative operation here that you're not getting any of your merch money.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, my mom made more money sitting at home than I did going all over the world playing the music.
Guest:And it's one thing to travel and do all that stuff, but I have all of the expenses of travel, airfare, buses, band salary, all that stuff.
Guest:I'm paying all those expenses and getting nothing from the merch.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The trust doesn't cover any of that stuff.
Marc:No, it never has.
Marc:So what would you like to happen?
Guest:Well, basically what is going on is, you know, I have a way to move forward and continue playing the music that my father wrote that I love and I want other people to know about.
Guest:And I simply just had to change the name from Zappa Plays Zappa.
Guest:So I will be going on tour and playing that music and...
Guest:And hopefully the name change doesn't affect people's interest level.
Guest:And hopefully all of this, you know, stuff that's in the media doesn't change people's desire to want to hear this music and support what Frank created.
Guest:But I mean that...
Guest:That's really all that I can do is I just change the name and keep doing what I do.
Guest:But the funny part of it is that because they don't own this name of this tour, they can't make any demands on the merch.
Guest:So they don't get to sell any merch.
Guest:right you know so so it's kind of like cutting off their nose despite their face uh with the way that they handled the whole thing because i could have gone on playing as zappa plays that but we could have made an appropriate merch deal and it could have just been fine yeah but uh it's just not working that way now i've changed the name and i'm going on your own guy yeah and how many guitars are there
Guest:Well, it's hard to know because some of them disappeared over the last few years.
Guest:I know of two that used to be there that aren't there.
Guest:There was a Stratocaster that had a gold Floyd Rose tremolo system on it, and it had the parametric EQ stuff that Frank was using for several years in his guitars.
Guest:and that guitar went missing um a couple years ago uh and also a telecaster that was a butterscotch colored one that he had custom made from performance guitar and that went missing and i told gail about those you know like those don't exist like where are they you know someone's got them
Guest:somebody has them i don't know you know gail was allowing people to record in the studio and use frank's guitars um and someone just walk with them probably god damn um but someone knows where those are but other than that there's probably about 12 or 13 but on the subject of the guitars um
Guest:You know, everybody, when Frank passed, everybody was given some items.
Guest:I was given the guitars, and then about four or five years later, Gail, my mom, decided that they were hers again because they were being stored at the house in the studio where she was living.
Guest:She just said, they're mine, you know?
Guest:Upon her death, she decided to give three of them of her choice back to me
Guest:but without the cases why that caveat i don't know and i even asked him and i said well at least with these guitars you know surely you could uh throw in the cases because it's just silly you know the cases are not anywhere near as valuable as the guitars what is the point of not having a case and and uh it was still like nope this is how gail wants it oh my god
Guest:And wasn't there sort of like you better come over and get them now?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And I haven't actually taken possession of those guitars yet because I haven't had I've been touring and all this stuff.
Guest:I haven't had a chance to go up there.
Marc:Do you not?
Marc:Is it too emotional, too?
Marc:I mean, it's got to be fucking heavy to go back up there.
Guest:Well, I don't even think they're at the house anymore.
Guest:I think they've been moved to a new location.
Marc:But just to see the house.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't you want to go up there before it goes?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, the thing is, we were told, hey, put a tag on anything that you're interested in.
Guest:And I just decided...
Guest:because of this mess i was like you know i'll i'll just keep the good memories that i have i'm not gonna uh you know worry about just random things that are in the house although i would like the note that frank wrote to me that gail kept you know frank you know my dad wrote a note he wrote them to everybody
Guest:But she kept mine, and I don't know where it is.
Guest:I never got to have this.
Guest:On his death bed, you mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you never saw it?
Guest:I saw it once, but she just kept it.
Guest:What did it say?
Guest:It just basically said, I love you.
Guest:But I didn't get it back.
Marc:I'm sorry, buddy.
Marc:I'm sorry you're going through this shit.
Marc:I really am.
Guest:It's messed up.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Well, I hope you get some closure on this stuff, and I hope it doesn't fuck your heart up for the rest of your life.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Guest:You know, none of it has to happen the way that it's happening.
Guest:And at the end of the day, it's like...
Guest:You know, it's about music.
Guest:I mean, you know, Frank made great music.
Guest:He was an incredible person.
Guest:And why does this stuff have to happen over...
Guest:money just dumb stuff you know yeah i mean i don't get it uh and i certainly don't want to be continuing down a path that that alienates people against frank's music or against the family or anything like that well i mean i do believe that with your passion and your respect and your
Marc:you know, loyalty to the legacy of the music itself that, you know, this will be a time where I think people will come out more to understand, you know, because it's such a specific thing, Frank.
Marc:And it's a universe that, you know, people can enter and spend their life in.
Marc:And I think that
Marc:that that they should know that that it's always been a very specific thing for very special people yeah and i and i think that you know what you're doing is is what you were you know destined and supposed to do and i'm just happy that you still have found a way to have the freedom to do that
Guest:Well, I appreciate it, and I appreciate the people that support the music and what we do, but there's definitely going to continue to be things out there for them to enjoy, including that film, Eat That Question, which you definitely should see it.
Guest:It really is...
Guest:It's kind of like we talked before about gateway records and things in Frank's career.
Guest:This is a gateway film.
Guest:Into Frank.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's some really cool rare footage that hasn't been seen of shows, performances in the early, early days.
Guest:Oh, great.
Guest:Where you see him when he's like 27 years old.
Guest:Doing way out there shit.
Guest:Yeah, there's some definitely crazy stuff.
Guest:He tells a story about being in Berlin and having parts of the audience that were, as he called them, fascists.
Guest:They asked him to be part of something where he was asked to help burn something down, and he refused.
Guest:So they started creating a problem at the show.
Guest:And Frank discusses how he just turned the volume up and created these waves of terrifying cluster chords that would drive the audience back.
Guest:But the audience that came to the show thought, oh, this is just what Frank Zappa does.
Guest:So it's interesting to hear him talk about it.
Guest:And they have some footage that's not specifically from that exact thing that he describes, but it's cool footage nonetheless of the show in Berlin.
Guest:Well, it's great.
Marc:I'm excited to see it.
Marc:And I feel that the music will obviously and certainly transcend all this shit.
Guest:I know it already has.
Guest:And I know that all of this stuff, even in my own life, it will all just be transcended.
Guest:I'm the kind of person that is just...
Guest:you know i can't worry about the past or the future i just stay in the moment as best as possible so you know i'm just gonna learn some songs go on tour you know have a great time uh living in that music while i'm on stage and uh and uh i hope that people will come and enjoy it and when's the tour start uh first show is july 1st where
Guest:Taos, New Mexico.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it a festival?
Guest:No, I think this one's just our own show, but then we do play a show with Umphreys McGee at Red Rocks in Colorado.
Guest:And where can people find the dates and stuff?
Marc:DweezilZappaWorld.com.
Marc:My hope for you is that somehow or another, you process it emotionally and get past it.
Guest:i to me i i'm already there you know i just i i play the music and i spend time with my my family my wife my kids i still you know i hang out with moon and matilda and and all that stuff is great you know uh all all those things i can't complain about um i this other stuff is a nuisance um but it's just it's also just really dumb and expensive to deal with absolutely just go get those three guitars
Guest:I would love to do that.
Guest:I'd love to get the rest of them too, you know.
Guest:Well, I hope that works out.
Guest:Thanks very much.
Guest:Good talking to you.
Marc:That was hard, man.
Marc:That was hard for me.
Marc:But it felt good.
Marc:It felt cathartic for both of us.
Marc:You know, it's weird when, you know, I wonder sometimes why I get so connected and so attached to some narratives.
Marc:And, you know, obviously my own relationship with my father is difficult and different, clearly.
Marc:But father stuff gets me right in the kishkis.
Marc:huh how about a little yiddish for you how about a little of that go to dweezilworld.com for tour info and check out that new documentary eat that question frank zappa in his own words also i i need to tell you um that we reached out uh to uh to ahmet zappa and asked him if he wanted to offer a response and i got this from
Marc:from his publicist hi mark as publicist for the zappa family trust we appreciate you reaching out to ahmed about comments for your podcast with dweezil ahmed doesn't have any comments to make at this time best mitch and marcy so now moving on to the next guest
Marc:Dion Cole.
Marc:I got to tell you, I had a great conversation here.
Marc:I finished this conversation.
Marc:I had a great time.
Marc:I had fun.
Marc:I got I had some laughter.
Marc:We had we were two comics talking together and I had a cop to the fact that, look, I had met him several times.
Marc:He used to write over a Conan.
Marc:um now he's on tv a lot and we talk about uh his role on uh on blackish uh and and i just never registered him and then one night i saw him at the comedy store i brought him up asked the sound guy who's next and he said deon cole and i was like who and then i brought up deon cole and i'm like oh fuck i know it was one of those things
Marc:And he did an amazing set.
Marc:And it was great that we connected.
Marc:It was just one of those fun comic conversations.
Marc:And Dion's special cold-blooded seminar airs this Saturday, June 25th at midnight and soon after on the Comedy Central app.
Marc:Okay, so that's on Comedy Central.
Marc:And then you'll get it on the app if you want to.
Marc:But enjoy me and Dion Cole enjoying each other's company.
Marc:Dion Cole.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, I think I owe you an apology.
Marc:You owe me an apology.
Marc:Well, I feel like a lot of times, I don't feel like I quite register you.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why not, man?
Marc:No, I mean, like, you know, I've been doing Conan for years, and I know you're a writer over there, and it's like, I've been doing that show since the mid-90s, so I'd see the writers come and go, and then by the time, like, I wasn't on, he didn't have me on The Tonight Show, but by the time I got over there to TBS, you know, you were around, and you were one of the writers, and I didn't really put it together that you were stand-up, and then I realized you were stand-up, and then one night at the comedy store, I know you, who you are, and I fucked up your intro.
Marc:Like, I'm like,
Marc:Who the fuck is it?
Marc:Because they were like, I'm like, who's next?
Marc:In the main room, they're like, Dion Cole.
Marc:And I'm like, who?
Marc:Dion what?
Marc:And I just fucked up the intro.
Marc:And then you got out there.
Marc:And I'm like, I know that guy.
Marc:What kind of fucking asshole?
Marc:Do you remember that?
Guest:Yeah, I remember it.
Guest:I was like, wow.
Guest:I was like, every time I see him, I introduce myself.
Guest:And I said to myself, I said, I'm going to keep doing it till you know my goddamn name.
Guest:I'm just going to, I don't even care.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Okay, how many times does it take?
Marc:I don't know what the fuck that is, like, because you know what it is, is because I didn't know you as a comic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't see you, you know, where I only work at the store, so, like, I just didn't register it, but then I, like, I know you're a Conan, and then there was also one of those things that maybe in my head, it's like, he doesn't fit in here.
Marc:What's he doing here?
Marc:It's like, this got to be some sort of... A lot of people's thinking there.
Marc:They're like, what is he doing?
Marc:But, you know, because I've known that crew for so long.
Marc:And it is really probably, you know, one of the whitest shows on television.
Marc:Yes, it is.
Guest:And everybody knows it.
Guest:All my friends know it.
Guest:We all know it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I remember when I first got over there, I was like, whoa, I'm going to be lonely as hell over here.
Guest:I can tell.
Guest:I can tell.
Marc:I think that's why there's this lack of connection.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I never really thought about it until like, you know, and then I thought, here's what I was thinking.
Marc:I'm like, he must be one of those alt black guys.
Marc:So that must be one of the alternative black dudes.
Guest:What's so crazy is a lot of people think that.
Guest:Even black people think that.
Guest:But then when they get around me, they be like, nah, this is a real motherfucker right here.
Guest:This is a real nigga right here.
Guest:And then they're like, what are you doing?
Guest:What are you doing over here then?
Guest:How did you get lost?
Guest:What do you say to him?
Guest:Nah, I just tell him, man.
Guest:We just linked up.
Guest:I think it was because of that that Cody was like, you know what, man?
Guest:Let's rock.
Guest:Let's do something because I just was who I was and that was it.
Guest:It wasn't no bells and whistles with it.
Guest:Well, where'd you meet Conan?
Guest:Man, I did the Tonight Show when he had the Tonight Show as a guest.
Guest:Oh, so they just booked you as a comic.
Guest:Yeah, booked me as a guest.
Guest:Yeah, as a comic.
Guest:And I did like four and a half minutes.
Guest:So my man, JP.
Guest:Buck?
Guest:Yeah, Buck.
Guest:Yeah, he booked me.
Guest:And next thing I know, man, about three weeks later, my manager called me like, I only want you to write for him.
Guest:I'm like...
Guest:write what?
Guest:You write, hello?
Guest:Do you have the right number?
Guest:I was like, what do they want me to write?
Guest:And I was like, I gotta submit something?
Guest:They was like, nah.
Guest:They'll just be here Monday.
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:I was like, I got all these shows coming up.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:The comic is like.
Marc:The comic.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I'm playing some shithole outside of Chicago.
Marc:I don't know if I'm going to be able to cancel that.
Guest:That's $500.
Marc:I know.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Is this for real?
Marc:Because I got about $1,200 worth of work in the next three months that I don't want to miss.
Guest:That's exactly what my mind was thinking of.
Guest:I don't want to get out there and then have them go like, bro, we made the wrong decision.
Guest:Yes, and then I miss these shows.
Guest:Yeah, and then what am I going to do?
Guest:Then I'm going to do.
Guest:I was like, man, that's crazy.
Guest:So you were living in Chicago when that happened?
Guest:Yeah, I was living in Chicago.
Guest:Actually, no, I was in L.A., but I came out to L.A.
Guest:to do some voiceover work.
Guest:You were scheduled, too?
Marc:Yeah, like I had an interview.
Marc:You had gigs.
Guest:I had an interview, yeah, DreamWorks.
Guest:I had an interview, and they were like, yeah.
Guest:We really love your voice for animation.
Guest:We got some projects coming up.
Guest:You should move out here.
Guest:And I was like, great.
Marc:Where'd they find you?
Marc:From the Conan show too?
Guest:No, I did the showcase in Aspen.
Guest:The Aspen.
Marc:It's not the HBO festival.
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was the HBO.
Marc:You were at the last one?
Guest:I was at the last one.
Guest:Oh, no shit.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And at that, that's why I met J.P.
Guest:Buck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And these other people that wanted me to do some animation.
Guest:And when I moved out there, they didn't even open the gate for me.
Guest:Really?
Guest:You're like, who?
Guest:I was out there with a Swiss Army type of tie and jacket.
Guest:That's all I could afford.
Guest:I was out there like, man.
Guest:It was no call or nothing.
Marc:You didn't even get the appointment?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, like, no.
Marc:Because you didn't have any representation?
Guest:I was like, man, I don't know what it was.
Guest:They just didn't mess with me.
Guest:And I just was like, wow.
Marc:So you moved out here because DreamWorks said they wanted you to do some cartoon voices.
Guest:And that was enough for you.
Guest:I'm packing up.
Guest:And I was like, man, that's good.
Guest:I'm just going to do it.
Guest:Because I wanted to leave Chicago, but I just needed a reason.
Guest:Somebody could have told me I could have did commercial work.
Guest:I would have been like, I'm out.
Guest:I just needed that one reason.
Guest:That's enough.
Guest:And I don't think that was like a big reason enough for me to leave, but I ended up doing it and I left and Jed and came out and it didn't work and I just was like out here.
Guest:But I was still going back to Chicago.
Guest:For the $500 gigs?
Guest:Because I didn't want nobody to know that I lived out in LA because I thought if people knew I lived in LA, they would treat me like everybody else.
Guest:So if I look like I visit,
Guest:then I'll probably get better stage time, this, that, and the other, so I wouldn't let nobody live out here.
Marc:Oh, so you didn't want them to know because you didn't want them to think like, oh, you're that guy, you're Big Shot?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You're out here now, you're just out, so I didn't want it to look like I lived out here, but yeah, I had a place out here.
Marc:That's weird.
Marc:That was the end of the comedy, the HBO comedy.
Marc:Because I was just telling Michelle that when I did it in 95, maybe the first or the second one, because we were talking about Chicago a little bit, there was this weird thing where... I'll never forget it because not unlike Conan on some level, Aspen is about the whitest place in the world.
Marc:But that year in 95, they had a black show, and they brought out Bernie Mac and Cedric and a couple other dudes.
Marc:But no one knew who they were.
Marc:They were just black circuit guys at that time.
Marc:And it was like, what's going on?
Marc:And Bernie Mac was really the blackest guy in the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I just remember watching Bernie Mac on stage in Aspen.
Marc:None of us can fucking breathe.
Marc:And it's just all that industry and all those white people.
Marc:And he's up there just sweating, doing his Bernie Mac shit.
Marc:And people are like, what's happening?
Marc:It was one of the greatest nights of comedy I ever saw in my life.
Marc:Because it was like not, they'd never seen anything like it.
Guest:I can visualize this right now.
Marc:And he was uncomfortable, you know, just being up there, walking around the street.
Marc:He didn't bring the right shoes, you know.
Marc:Altitude.
Marc:Everything stacked against you.
Marc:And I think that's how he got Ruthann and the Bernie Mac show and all that shit.
Marc:That's funny, man.
Guest:It was so right up there.
Guest:I remember Kid Capri had a party up there and no one was there.
Guest:I think it was just me, him, and a couple other people to the point where he was playing what he wanted to hear.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Download songs he never bought.
Guest:It wasn't even a party.
Guest:It was just like us grooving, listening to music.
Guest:No one showed up.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was so white.
Guest:No one knew who Kid Capri was.
Guest:I'm not sure I do.
Yeah.
Guest:I was going to play along, but I figured I'll cop to it.
Guest:King Capri is one of the biggest DJs.
Marc:Oh, DJs, yeah.
Marc:I'd feel bad if it was a rapper.
Marc:A DJ, that's completely out of my... That's one step further to things I don't fucking know about.
Marc:Sometimes I see those billboards on Sunset for those people who are going to be in Vegas.
Marc:You ever see those?
Marc:I'm like, are they making those guys up?
Marc:And then someone told me they're DJs.
Marc:I'm like, I don't fucking know.
Marc:Just guys with one name.
Marc:Calvin Harris.
Guest:Who's Calvin Harris?
Marc:Why is he at the Mirage?
Marc:What's he going to be doing there?
Marc:I guess people just like to dance.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, all right, like, because I've watched your stand up, you know, and I've seen you live and stuff.
Marc:And I know you're over at Conan, but it is sort of a little bit of a brain fuck.
Marc:And I'm not apparently the only one that was like not able to sort of place you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you, you know, you got chops.
Marc:So where'd you grow up in Chicago?
Guest:Man, Southside, Southside of Chicago.
Guest:That's where I started everything at.
Marc:What's that neighborhood?
Marc:I know that, like, is that... Crazy, ill, crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's like... That's where all the murdering is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're like Southside.
Marc:They're known for that.
Guest:They're known for pizza and murder.
Guest:What are we going to do tonight?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Get some pizza and try to make it home?
Guest:That's a sport.
Guest:That's a sport, Chicago.
Guest:Get some pizza and make it home.
Marc:Yeah, that's the sport they don't show on TV until after it's lost.
Marc:That guy didn't win.
Guest:It's just pizza slices on the ground everywhere of people who didn't make it.
Marc:But it is like that.
Marc:I've grown to like Chicago.
Marc:I've grown to appreciate it because it's a real fucking city.
Marc:It's a great place.
Marc:There's not that many real cities.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:that have a real history and personality to it.
Marc:But it is kind of like, you know, Los Angeles, Boston, and San Francisco, which are like clearly fucking like black people are over there.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And this is where the white people.
Guest:Most segregated city in the US.
Guest:Which is?
Guest:Chicago.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's segregated to the point where the Irish over here, the Jewish is over here, the Hispanics are over here.
Guest:And then you have the blacks over here.
Guest:And then you have the blacks segregated where it's like,
Guest:this class of blacks of money, and then this class of blacks without money, and the same thing with the whites.
Guest:You have whites who don't have money, who's further up north than the ones who have money, and then the Puerto Ricans, then the Mexicans.
Guest:It's crazy how- A lot of food options, though.
Marc:Oh, you can eat your ass off.
Guest:You can leave and make it there.
Guest:Pizza slices.
Guest:Pizza slices.
Guest:Tacos.
Guest:Ukrainian food.
Guest:Ukrainian food.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, you can eat your ass off in Chicago.
Guest:That's some of the greatest.
Guest:Well, what part did you grow up in?
Guest:Man, like a hundred, like the hundreds, 115th, 117th Mafia, like way deep in the hundreds.
Marc:And what was your family like?
Guest:What'd your dad do?
Guest:Man, my father, he worked for the, look at me, I think he was a... What he told us, standard black man stuff.
Guest:I think he was a... No, no, he was working for the post office and then he was retired or whatever, yeah, so... And your mom and him were together the whole time?
Guest:No, no, no, no, they weren't together at all.
Guest:I really didn't even hardly...
Guest:know my father like that knew I've actually just he just passed like probably like about a week and a half ago.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, it was crazy because I went to his funeral and this other dude like I know him like that, but I thought I'd show up.
Guest:But the other dude walked up to me is like, yeah, man, you know, man, sorry for your loss of your father.
Guest:And I'm just like, yeah, okay.
Guest:He was like, he was a father to me, too, you know.
Guest:He taught me how to deal with women and change tires on the car.
Guest:He really dealt with me.
Guest:We read the Bible together.
Guest:I'm looking at him like, really?
Guest:You got my child dirty.
Guest:Well, I'm sorry for your loss.
Guest:Who the fuck are you?
Guest:Who the fuck are you again?
Guest:Why are you taking all my moments?
Guest:But yeah, man.
Guest:Who was that kid?
Guest:He worked with my father.
Guest:I've been knowing him for a long time, but yeah, I did not know him.
Marc:That's a weird thing, though.
Marc:That's a weird thing when you hear these people that have these different relationships with your father.
Marc:Like, I knew my father, and there were people like, he was a great guy, nicest guy in the world.
Guest:Wait, who are we talking about?
Yeah.
Guest:That's exactly what happened, man.
Marc:I was sitting up like, what?
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:Must be a different guy.
Marc:Might be the right funeral.
Guest:Who they burying?
Guest:We're talking about Napo, right?
Guest:That's the same father.
Guest:Yeah, it was crazy, man.
Guest:So no, they went together.
Guest:My mother just raised me on her own.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Brothers and sisters?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Just you?
Guest:Just only child.
Guest:But I have a half sister that I thought about when I was 30 that my father had.
Guest:Right.
Guest:When you were 30, you met that?
Guest:Yeah, I met her when I was 30.
Guest:It was crazy just to see somebody that looked like you.
Guest:Did you keep in touch with her or nothing?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I always wonder what that's like.
Guest:Yeah, we was together at the funeral.
Guest:What was so crazy is when he died, they were coming to us going, okay, you all had to take care of it because we next to Ken.
Guest:And I'm like, I'm not even saying, dude, we gotta take care of this.
Guest:And you did, didn't you?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You did the right thing, right?
Guest:The family did, too.
Guest:I mean, like, his brother stepped up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, everybody got it together.
Marc:But it was the craziest thing.
Marc:It's not the time to go like, fuck him.
Marc:Let's just cremate him.
Marc:How much is that?
Guest:But I was like this, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Guest:What the fuck is going on?
Marc:Were you sad or you didn't have access to those emotions because you didn't have that much of a relationship?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:I was sad that we didn't always wait in on that moment where we could sit back and...
Guest:You know, him to go, yo, I see you making it.
Guest:And everybody else told me that he really admired me and admired everything I did, but he just wouldn't tell me because he just lived with so much pride.
Guest:He felt like, okay, his son is making it, but you know what?
Guest:I don't want to come around now.
Guest:Now it's going to look like because he's making it, I'm coming around.
Guest:So he wouldn't do that.
Guest:Then he got sick and he was like, okay.
Guest:I need his help, but I ain't going to reach out for his help because it's going to look like because I'm sick.
Guest:His pride kept him away from that.
Marc:And he probably, a little mixture of shame and pride.
Marc:All of that, yeah.
Marc:I hung that kid out to dry.
Marc:That's a daily combination, Jack.
Guest:You should never have that guilt and pride.
Marc:Yeah, they're married.
Guest:Oh, and married.
Guest:You have both of those together?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, pride and insecurity.
Marc:Another good couple.
Guest:That's another good couple, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know what you never hear is pride and humility.
Marc:They don't go together.
Marc:They're never dating, those two.
Guest:Never in the same room.
Marc:No, no, never.
Guest:Never in the same room.
Guest:No, humility sees pride and they're like, I gotta go.
Marc:That guy's never gonna shut up.
Guest:Oh, who brought him here?
Guest:Who brought humility here?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Get out.
Guest:Get out.
Marc:I'm working.
Guest:I'm working.
Guest:That's funny, man.
Guest:So, well then, okay, so he's, that was just a week and a half ago, huh?
Guest:Yeah, that just happened, man.
Guest:Yep, so, you know, we, uh.
Guest:And your mother, like, she didn't go, right?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:My mother was like, hmm.
Guest:That's black women.
Guest:That annoys me so much.
Guest:Yeah, just read into it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That could be like, okay, or about time.
Guest:It can mean so much.
Guest:It can mean either one of those.
Guest:I feel a bit beginning.
Guest:I think we've got Dion's new seven minutes.
Guest:I think we've got a new seven minutes.
Guest:Bit.
Marc:Yeah, read into that.
Guest:That's funny, man.
Marc:So when did you... So you were just kicking around Chicago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When did you start feeling like... What did your mom do to take care of everything?
Marc:What was her job?
Guest:My mama worked several jobs.
Guest:She used to work at this place called Harold's Chicken.
Guest:It was a chicken shack in Chicago that's really well-known.
Guest:They still have... My mother worked at currency exchange.
Guest:She...
Guest:worked as many jobs as possible, but we didn't, put it like this, I was the only child and we still didn't have shit.
Guest:Like nothing.
Guest:We used to put our food in the snow because we didn't have refrigerators.
Guest:It was, you know, just- Really?
Guest:Yeah, a hustle story.
Marc:Refrigerators, man.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, it was snow.
Guest:Put our food in the snow, man.
Marc:What about in the summer, man?
Marc:You just didn't eat refrigerated items?
Summer.
Guest:Ice.
Guest:Used to go buy bags of ice.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, and put it in a bowl and then just put a lid on top of the big bowl and put our food in there, like lunch meat.
Guest:Used to be just basically lunch meat and Spam and stuff like that, like steakhouse.
Marc:But it was that bad you couldn't get a refrigerator?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We used to live in a house where it wasn't rented out, but they were trying to rent it out.
Guest:But until they rented it out, they would let us stay there.
Guest:But it had no electricity or nothing.
Marc:So almost like illegal squatting with the permission of the owner.
Guest:With the permission, yes.
Guest:The permission of the owner letting us squat in one of his apartments.
Marc:But not give you the fucking electricity.
Guest:Yes, but would not give us the electricity.
Marc:It's like you're kind of a nice guy.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Not a great guy.
Guest:You're doing this for your sake right now, I think.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, he's not doing it for us.
Guest:He's going, eh, I'm gonna let him stay here.
Guest:Make a few bucks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm not gonna take any chances by turning on the utilities.
Marc:What the fuck, man?
Marc:We're not gonna do that.
Marc:And you grew up in that house, so no one bought that fucking house?
Guest:Yeah, no, no.
Guest:We stayed there.
Guest:We stayed there for about probably like six months, almost eight months we stayed there.
Guest:And then my mother ended up getting another job and we moved.
Marc:To a real place?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With a refrigerator?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:How old were you when you got the refrigerator?
Guest:I think I was like probably about 12.
Guest:Oh, that's exciting.
Guest:You didn't have to smell the lunch meat anymore?
Guest:No, I ain't had to smell the lunch.
Guest:I ain't had to smell the lunch.
Guest:I ate so many sandwiches, man.
Guest:I ain't gonna lie to you.
Guest:Like, sometimes I still eat them because I just, I love them.
Guest:Make them comfortable.
Guest:I love, it's just this poor shit that I still do.
Guest:I still look on the ground for money.
Guest:Yeah, who doesn't?
Guest:I still eat sugars.
Guest:Do you still do it?
Guest:I don't look, but if I see something, you know, I'll pick it up generally, even if it's a fucking penny.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You know?
Guest:You gotta do it, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that goes on forever.
Guest:It doesn't matter how much money you got.
Guest:You're going to pick that up.
Marc:Well, I mean, sometimes, like, what am I gonna do with that dime?
Marc:Maybe someone, maybe that's a life-changing dime.
Marc:That dime's gonna stay on your mind for a little bit.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:It does.
Marc:Yeah, because then you judge yourself.
Marc:Like, what have I become?
Marc:What kind of?
Marc:It sends you through a whole thing if you don't pick that dime up.
Marc:Am I really that big a man?
Guest:I'm just going to leave money.
Guest:Am I a big asshole where I'm going to leave this fucking dime?
Marc:I've experimented with throwing money away.
Marc:Like I've had pennies, just like throw it away.
Marc:And I don't know if that feels right.
Marc:You can't just throw away money like that.
Marc:But no, but like those kind of foods, like, you know, comfort food is comfort food.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What's the lunch meat that you like?
Marc:Which one?
Guest:It was turkey.
Guest:Turkey bologna.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Turkey bologna.
Guest:Then it was like this cottage.
Guest:It was called cottage salami.
Guest:It was like the cheapest.
Marc:Oscar Mayer?
Guest:Yeah, it had those little peppercorns in it.
Guest:The little peppercorns.
Guest:This is good.
Guest:Nothing wrong with that.
Guest:Is that in your writer?
Yeah.
Guest:I want Cristal and peppercorn salami in my room, goddamn it.
Guest:White bread.
Guest:White bread folded.
Guest:And some of that shitty yellow mustard.
Marc:French's mustard package.
Marc:Packages.
Marc:I don't want that fucking container.
Guest:I want to feel like we had to take it from a restaurant that we stole from the hot dog place.
Guest:This is how I feel comfortable.
Guest:I want all condiments in packages.
Guest:Fucking jars.
Guest:I don't want none of that jar shit.
Guest:All that squeezable fuck that.
Marc:That's soft.
Marc:So when did you start doing comedy when?
Marc:What was the experience?
Guest:It was like 92.
Marc:It looks like you've been doing it a while.
Guest:I got that stress factor going on.
Marc:No, no, I was watching.
Marc:It was kind of an exciting experience for me because I know you write for Conan.
Marc:I know you're doing the bits on him.
Guest:Well, see, another thing, too.
Guest:I used to write for him.
Guest:Now I just do freelance stuff while going to shows.
Marc:But nonetheless, that's how I was introduced to you, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So I spent however long it had been since I started seeing you around thinking, who the fuck is that guy?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's not adding up.
Marc:It just doesn't add up.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:I'm not feeling the alt-black guy from this guy.
Marc:He's not saying much, but he's definitely not one of them black nerds, the rare black nerd guy.
Marc:That is great.
Marc:So then I watch your shit.
Marc:I'm like, oh, this dude's a real dude.
Marc:This guy's been doing comedy a long time.
Marc:This is not like I'm just starting out shit.
Guest:It's been going on for a while.
Guest:Oh, snap.
Guest:But you know what I mean?
Marc:So then I'm like, there must have been, there's a whole history of comedy that you came up in because I know the Chicago guys that are around your age and you're not part of that thing.
Marc:So when I watch the stand-up, I'm like, oh, well, this guy's been at it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But when did you start thinking you could do it?
Marc:Who was it that you saw?
Guest:Well, it was always, I never thought that I was gonna be a comic.
Guest:It was the fact that I was just very observant.
Guest:And by me being like the only child, I just was observant to things and I would question a lot of stuff because.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of time.
Guest:Yeah, it was just for real.
Guest:Did you have friends?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they were the ones
Guest:that kinda put it in me a little bit that, yo, you need to do standup, because I would ask genuine questions when they would think like, yo, just leave it alone, but I would drill it, like whatever it was, to get the answer to this.
Guest:Like if somebody tripped and failed in front of us, everyone would laugh.
Guest:I would be more like, why didn't they see that?
Guest:Did they trip over a dime?
Guest:Because I'm gonna go get that.
Guest:Was that a dime they tripped over?
Guest:Yeah, man, I would question that.
Guest:That's all I do, question shit.
Guest:Did you listen to comedy?
Marc:Did you like comedy?
Guest:I loved comedy, but it wasn't like that was something that I was into.
Guest:I wasn't into that, really.
Guest:I really didn't know what my purpose was.
Marc:Yeah, I'm still working on it.
Marc:Did you figure that out yet?
Marc:Right, yo, no.
Guest:I'm still trying to figure out what I'm here for.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:So I just was like, man.
Guest:So when my friend bet me, he bet me to go on stage because he was just like, dude, you always saying some silly shit.
Guest:I think I was like, probably like 22, 22 at the time.
Guest:And he just bet me 50 bucks to go on stage.
Guest:And I was like, all right, let's do it.
Guest:Where at?
Guest:All Jokes Aside in Chicago.
Guest:It's a club called All Jokes Aside.
Guest:And I went down there and
Guest:on an open mic yeah and they wouldn't let me get on for the first two weeks then third week sit over there yes sit over there yeah with the other guys with the other guys waiting yes waiting they would never let me on and then adele gibbons she let me go on and she brought me on and was she hosting yeah she was hosting and i remember i couldn't sleep that night
Guest:After you did it?
Marc:Or before?
Guest:After I did it.
Guest:How'd it go?
Guest:It went incredible.
Guest:I think I got almost like a little standing ovation.
Guest:It was like a few people that stood up and clapped.
Guest:Let me tell you what that's called.
Guest:A few people stood up.
Guest:Okay, that's what it was.
Guest:It was not a standing ovation.
Guest:To me then, I was like, oh my God, what is this?
Marc:There's nothing more sadder than the partial standing O. Four people and 100 people, they're like, up, they're up.
Marc:And then you just watch them start to feel weird about it.
Guest:I thought everybody else was gonna stand there.
Guest:No, so that's what it was, the bullshit.
Guest:You can thank them personally.
Marc:Very nice gesture.
Guest:You can point at them individually.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:It was that kind of shit.
Marc:Did you write jokes or did you just wing it?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I wrote down stories.
Guest:No, I didn't even know.
Guest:I just wrote down stories that I've told people before that they laughed about.
Guest:And then I also wrote down how I felt about certain stuff.
Guest:I didn't even know it was joke form.
Guest:I just wrote down how I felt about certain things.
Marc:Right, but you were funny enough with your friends that you knew that had some effect.
Guest:Yeah, I knew that this was funny because I told it to several people.
Guest:Like I've told this story to several people and they laugh.
Guest:So I think if I go up here, then it'll work.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I just was like, okay.
Marc:So that was how old were you?
Marc:22?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And what were you doing?
Marc:Were you working?
Marc:Were you in school?
Guest:I was working in a place called Leathermakers, and I was selling weed at the time.
Guest:Yeah, Leathermakers.
Guest:Yep, and I was selling weed out of the leather shop.
Guest:What was Leathermakers?
Guest:It sold all kind of leather coats and pants and jackets and vests and all of that, like a Wilson's.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it was called Leathermakers.
Guest:It was on the South Side?
Guest:Yeah, it was on the South Side.
Guest:And me selling weed out of there, the smell of leather, if you have so much leather around, it kills any smell around.
Guest:You can smoke weed in a leather store and won't nobody smell it.
Guest:Make note.
Guest:Lace your walls with leather.
Guest:Weed doesn't even matter anymore.
Guest:Nobody gives a fuck.
Guest:People smoke weed everywhere.
Guest:Everywhere, but then shit, it was great.
Marc:Yeah, and the weed wasn't as good as it is now yet.
Guest:Nah, nah.
Guest:So that's 92?
Guest:Yeah, it was 92.
Guest:Dude, it's a long time, man.
Guest:Yeah, man, just been rocking out ever since, man.
Guest:Did you go to college?
Guest:Yeah, I went to college for like a semester, almost a year, down in Arkansas.
Guest:And this motherfucker started shooting at me and my friend Chris.
Guest:What?
Guest:I don't know, because we was up north.
Guest:I think that's what it was.
Guest:That was around the time.
Guest:Remember this HBO special called Gang Banging in Little Rock?
Guest:It was about just showing all these gangs in Little Rock.
Guest:It was around that time that that movie came out in.
Guest:It was crazy in Little Rock how they was gangbanging.
Guest:What school was that?
Guest:Philander Smith.
Guest:That's a school called Philander Smith.
Guest:And they was just gangbanging so tough down there that it just... What, like it just caught on?
Guest:Yeah, it was like West Coast.
Guest:It was Crips and Bloods down there.
Guest:And I'm from Chicago, so we got different gangs, like folks and vice lords.
Guest:And so that was a whole different experience to me that I couldn't wear a certain color.
Guest:So you grew up with the knowledge of that?
Guest:I grew up under folks and vice lawyers.
Guest:That was like gangsters and vice lawyers.
Guest:In your neighborhood.
Guest:Yeah, and it depended on which way you wear your hat.
Guest:If you wear your hat to the left or the right, the bib of your hat.
Guest:You had to watch how that went.
Marc:But colors, I never dealt with.
Marc:But as a kid, you weren't in the gang, but you still had to honor the hat code or no?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you came out, you better wear your hat straight as a duck, man.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:You better straighter than cat hair.
Guest:Your shit better be straight on your fucking head.
Marc:Even if you had nothing to do with gang, you're just a neighborhood kid.
Guest:If you had nothing to do with gang, you better wear your hat straight or don't wear it at all.
Guest:Yeah, so I would go with the no hat option.
Guest:And I did do that.
Guest:But then when I was around other people, I would wear my hat.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Because I thought it was strength and numbers.
Guest:And we still got our ass work.
Guest:You did?
Marc:By who?
Marc:By the vice one?
Guest:Yeah, by the gangs.
Guest:Other gangs?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They'll come over there and, you know, because this was around the time when drugs was popping off, too.
Guest:Like, this was like 84, 85.
Marc:So you were like 10?
Marc:Yeah, I'm young.
Guest:I'm young.
Guest:Young as hell.
Guest:And so it was...
Guest:It was crazy how that whole little gang movement was going on.
Marc:The little gang movement.
Guest:It's worse now, though.
Guest:It was more organized then.
Guest:Now, I don't know what the fuck they doing.
Marc:But you get beat up, but you wouldn't get shot.
Guest:Nah, it wasn't like that.
Guest:Yeah, you fought with your hands.
Guest:and shit.
Guest:Yeah, you was fighting with your hands.
Guest:Like, wasn't nobody walking around with pistols and shit like that.
Marc:At 10 years old, hopefully not.
Guest:And if you did fight somebody, it's because you knew you was in their area or whatever.
Guest:It made sense, in a sense, that it was like organized crime.
Guest:You knew if you was here, then this was what's going to happen.
Marc:But what if you just got to walk through?
Marc:Yo, shit.
Marc:Maybe figure out another way.
Marc:God!
Marc:God bless you.
Marc:Even as a kid?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just a kid.
Guest:Can't I go over there to that store?
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Fuck that.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:You better send your sister or somebody.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:So that's where it fucking starts, that weird kind of...
Marc:specific territorial thing gets put in your brain that early that it's important.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And you know, because you know your environment.
Guest:And it's cool.
Guest:As long as you, in your environment, you cool.
Guest:But once I start doing stand-up and start traveling and all that, I start seeing other parts of the world and shit like that, that's when I was like, yo, this is crazy.
Guest:It was bigger than just
Guest:me doing stand-up, I started learning about other people.
Marc:It's a very small world that they're protecting, that way of life.
Marc:It's a very small world.
Marc:A lot of them, and I'm talking about black people, but not in a bad way.
Marc:You son of a bitch.
Marc:I didn't say those people.
Marc:A lot of those people are...
Marc:But I just think in that environment, their choices are limited, so that's what, it's all invested in maintaining that order.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But when you get out of there, you're like, yeah.
Marc:You just walk over there?
Guest:You're like, what?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:Like, really?
Guest:Like, I can do this?
Guest:I can do that?
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:And to this day, it's like that.
Guest:And all over the country, you got motherfuckers here that live in Compton or whatever that have never left Compton because they can't leave that area or they don't have the means and money to travel.
Guest:And that's all that they know.
Guest:And so once you get out, you go, wow.
Guest:And then you start realizing, what am I fighting and killing for on this block in this neighborhood?
Guest:The world is bigger than this neighborhood.
Guest:And then you try to leave out.
Guest:So hopefully somebody hear this and-
Guest:Put that gun around or some shit.
Guest:You're helping people.
Guest:I know, you got gangsters listening to your podcast.
Guest:A lot of gangsters.
Guest:A lot of gangsters.
Guest:Motherfuckers with weed right now, like, true, true, true.
Guest:That motherfucking Mark is true.
Guest:That's true shit, Mark.
Marc:Oh, that was the funniest thing was like today I watched a clip of yours from Laugh-a-Palooza or something.
Marc:Ooh, yeah.
Marc:It's an old clip, but the funny thing about it was someone had shot the clip.
Marc:You got to go watch it.
Marc:He shot it.
Marc:It's a guy taping it off his TV with his phone.
Marc:All right, so that's the clip.
Marc:It's a TV being watched by some other dude.
Marc:You got two laughs from that clip.
Marc:Like, I'm just watching it.
Marc:I'm trying to be like, why is the sound fucked up?
Marc:And then I'm just watching.
Marc:I'm like, I guess the sound sounds fucked up on the clip.
Marc:And then like about three minutes in, I hear it like.
Guest:That's validation, man.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:Because then all of a sudden I'm like waiting for, because he's alone.
Marc:You know he's alone.
Marc:So if you're getting actual audible laughs from a dude sitting alone with his phone, even if it's just two.
Marc:That means you're doing something, man.
Guest:We should send everyone special to that dude.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Let you know if your shit work or not.
Guest:I didn't know it was coming the first time.
Guest:It ended up like, oh my God, it's so stupid.
Marc:I ended up waiting for him to laugh again.
Marc:He did.
Marc:He laughed again.
Marc:That's so funny.
Marc:There was those great tapes of one of the great, I don't even know why I loved it so much, but when Cat Williams melted down on stage and there were people taming it with their phone.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So, like, I'm watching one of those, one of those phone videos, like, and you can hear it's just these black women, you're holding the phone, you know, and you just hear them like, oh shit, oh shit, and then, like, all that shit's going on on stage, and then Suge Knight comes out, and all you hear is one woman goes, is that Suge?
I think that's Suge!
Guest:It's part of the show.
Guest:They're just excited to see Shook.
Guest:It's the best.
Guest:It's the best.
Guest:It's really.
Is that Shook?
Marc:Is that really Shook?
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:That's funny, man.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So you're doing like, what is that club scene?
Marc:Because there used to be the, there was a pretty important black club there for a long time.
Marc:All jokes aside.
Marc:Is that what it was?
Marc:Because I talked to the guys who ran that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Raymond Lambert and Mary Lindsay.
Marc:They did a documentary on it, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Were you in that?
Guest:Yeah, I was in it.
Guest:It's called Funny Business.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I interviewed those guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah, absolutely, man.
Guest:So that was that club?
Guest:Yeah, that was that era, man.
Guest:It was great because, I mean, me being from Chicago, I thought it was many clubs like that, not knowing that that was the only black club like that in the country, just to...
Guest:see people in uniforms and they pay you by check and all that shit that shit was crazy but honestly I didn't feel how other people felt what it was like when it came to the clubs in Chicago it was bars and stuff that paid you money out your pocket but working the comedy club there I thought everybody had that kind of comedy club right but it wasn't but that was a specifically black club
Marc:Yeah, it was specifically black.
Marc:Who were the acts that were coming up with?
Guest:It was like, man, I remember we used to open for like Steve Harvey, Chappelle, Carlos Mencia, Cedric.
Guest:It was like everybody that was anybody.
Guest:DL.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was like Chris Rock.
Guest:Everybody played the club.
Guest:It was a good club.
Guest:Whoever it was, they played that club.
Guest:Yeah, it was fantastic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was ran like a well-oiled ship.
Guest:It was like you do your time.
Guest:If you go over your time, you get docked pay.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, it was no more ship.
Marc:And were you like a regular opener?
Marc:You came up through the ranks.
Marc:You opened.
Marc:You featured.
Marc:You're like one of the guys, the local guys.
Marc:You get the call if you want to feature for somebody, and you're hoping you can feature for somebody if you see them coming.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And you're waiting for the call.
Guest:Yeah, but at the time, I didn't even, like I said, I was invested in comedy.
Guest:I liked comedy, but I mean, I really wasn't invested in it like that.
Guest:But I didn't know all these acts.
Guest:All I knew was I liked comedy, and I did, and I knew all the big name comedians.
Guest:I didn't know all these other guys that were coming through the club.
Guest:I just was meeting them as they were coming through.
Marc:And watching them?
Guest:Yeah, and building a relationship with them and watching them and learning how, what to do and what not to do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:not knowing that this was something that was unusual.
Guest:A job.
Guest:Yeah, and it was a job.
Guest:It was a job.
Guest:But I didn't know that, I thought everyone had this access to these great comics.
Guest:And so it was something that made us become who we are today.
Marc:No, absolutely.
Marc:Just watching those dudes.
Marc:Just watching these dudes.
Marc:But you didn't come at it like you didn't love Carlin or Pryor.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Ellen DeGeneres is one of my icons.
Guest:I'm patterning myself after her.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Ellen, George, Stephen Wright.
Guest:George who?
Guest:Carlin.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Those are the guys that you're like.
Guest:Yeah, those are the people that you listen to, that made you laugh.
Guest:That made me go, that's who I want to be like.
Guest:And that's, I like, I love that off-putting type of material.
Guest:I look at comedy like it's magic.
Guest:Like, if you can't see the punchline coming, like.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because that's different than, like, you know, George, Ellen, and who was the other one?
Marc:Stephen Wright because like that's like what separates you in a way is that you know you got a very kind of like hard disposition up there and your delivery is is pretty like like a like old school black comic yeah but you those are all like joke writers yeah you're not telling stories necessarily you write jokes yeah yeah absolutely and and like what I took from basically Ellen DeGeneres was taking a little bit of something and blowing it out of proportion
Guest:She's the queen of that.
Guest:George was very smart with how he broke down things.
Guest:And that was something that I was like, man, I want to be able to do that.
Guest:Stephen Wright was clever.
Guest:He was the type of cat that he had a play on words that was like no other can do.
Guest:And so I thought if I can take all of those bits and pieces
Guest:and apply them to myself as well as be a real motherfucker that I think that I might be in my own lane.
Guest:But it started happening without me even thinking about it.
Guest:It started happening.
Guest:And then when I realized it was happening, then I started embracing it more.
Guest:But that's what it was.
Guest:It was like, yeah,
Guest:talk about some real motherfucking shit on some black shit or white shit, whatever it is, I don't have to have the cadence of a token black guy.
Guest:I don't have to be like, I can be me and still be on some clever shit.
Marc:Right, well I saw some of that in some of the older stuff when you were using the device, the list.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because by and large, you pull that shit out.
Marc:You're not really doing a character, but you're just going to try these jokes.
Guest:Yeah, because I did it on Def Jam, but it was something that became a part of me by me using my notepad on stage back then because I used to get so high to just really honestly forget my jokes.
Guest:And so when I seen that that was working, that people was laughing at me using my notes.
Marc:The beat was whether it worked or it didn't work.
Marc:Yeah, if it worked,
Marc:If it didn't work, I don't scratch it off.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it became a bit.
Guest:So it got to the point where I would do jokes that didn't work on purpose.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because those got bigger laughs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because of the reaction to it, the actual written joke.
Guest:So I had instilled it me to bomb on purpose because that would be funnier.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Than me writing a joke.
Marc:And because the device worked, it actually enabled you to try new jokes.
Marc:And it actually allowed me to try new jokes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Pretty clever.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:Did you do it on your special?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I still do it from time to time.
Guest:I use my notepad, but a lot of people kind of do that now, whatever.
Guest:But not like I do it.
Marc:No, no, the alt comics, it used to be like, that was one of the reasons why the old timers would get mad at alt comics.
Marc:It's like, they bring their notebooks.
Marc:Janine, I think really was the one that people remember doing it.
Marc:Garofalo used to just bring the pads up, but Richard Lewis does it too.
Marc:He's got the yellow pads.
Marc:But you got the gig on Conan, what, 2010?
Guest:I got the gig on Conan in 2009.
Guest:Were you headlining?
Guest:Yeah, I was headlining.
Guest:I was headlining.
Guest:I was doing shows.
Marc:Mostly black rooms?
Guest:Mostly black rooms.
Guest:But my audience was still kind of like... Put it like this.
Guest:I was never that comic that was...
Guest:I never was embraced by like the black crowd like that because of my material because I came up in the ranks of you know catch phrases and motherfuckers had suits with 17 buttons and shit you know Steve Harvey used to wear suits like that but everybody used to
Guest:bite off steve harvey's suits but steve was sharp as shit in his suits yeah he used to look good but it got to a point where comedians started using that shit as a crutch they was like where if he ain't funny at least he was sharp in the motherfucker like so you saw young guys going out like buying suits and shit dudes would be like gangster one day and then all of a sudden they'd be like i got a hat
Guest:No hat, do I wear the hat or not the hat?
Guest:Nah, maybe not the hat right away.
Guest:They used to be so sharp, man, but I used to always be against that.
Guest:I used to always be like, nah, I don't want to do that.
Guest:So when I got put on black shows, it would be for diversity.
Guest:reasons you were the you were that i was diversity i was the diversity as far as he's that kind of black guy these other guys we're gonna have the fancy black people and then this guy he's just gonna dress how he wants no no i would because i wouldn't put in asses in seats but i would bring a different rhythm yeah comedy i still would be i still would be a
Guest:be a black motherfucker I wouldn't be like no token dude but the way I delivered my shit was different than the rest of the comics so I used to get booked like that I used to be like a comedian's comedian you know so you're writing this shit you had structure you weren't just charming you weren't just pandering exactly I was like doing that work yeah no I was sitting back writing like motherfucker and trying to get that
Guest:get my pen together yeah yeah all together whatever so yeah i was like the diversity that's funny but you were headlining yeah but then like but when i did like theater shows with other people right you know i would do that but yeah i was headlining because i did laughable loser def jam comic view i did like a whole bunch of uh tv shows as far as you know doing stand-up shows and stuff so people knew me and yeah i had a nice following yeah yeah
Guest:But when I hit Conan, that sent me to a whole nother level.
Marc:But when you walk in, that's sort of an interesting shift is that, you know, like Conan had this intuition about, you know, when he saw you do stand-up, he had this intuition that you were a writer.
Marc:Like he could feel that.
Marc:You know the difference.
Marc:Like, you know, I jerk around on stage and like all my shit, it creates itself on stage.
Marc:You know, no one's gonna listen to me and go like, that's a good joke.
Marc:Like I didn't see that coming or whatever.
Marc:Because I do a different style.
Marc:I'm more conversational.
Marc:But he must have sensed that.
Guest:I mean, that's what I think.
Guest:Because he always makes moves on vibes.
Guest:And he just feels like it's a vibe.
Guest:I was told a story of when he first had his show on Late Night.
Guest:They had him hosting and interviewing a whole lot of people as a co-host.
Guest:And when he hired Andy,
Guest:it wasn't even on interview.
Guest:He just saw Andy one day and they talked and had coffee and laughed and joked it up and he hired him.
Guest:So everybody he interviewed, he never hired them, but he hired Andy.
Guest:And so that was the same thing with me.
Marc:But when you get the gig, you knew... I never worked in a writer room other than my TV show.
Marc:That was the first experience I had.
Marc:So did he bring you in?
Marc:Did you start with monologues or sketches?
Marc:How did you start?
Marc:I went straight sketch.
Guest:Like when I came in, man, it was like, when I got there, it was like, okay, I tried to write like everybody and it was like straight sketch.
Guest:They gave me an office and all this and I just sat back and I was trying to write like everybody.
Guest:Nobody gave me no blueprint.
Guest:I've never written for no show, nothing.
Guest:I was just there in the writer's room, sitting there, and they like, you'll catch on.
Guest:I remember Mike Sweeney, the head writer, he was like, man.
Marc:I know him.
Marc:Came up with him.
Marc:Funny guy.
Guest:Sweet guy.
Guest:Sweet.
Guest:The sweetest guy ever.
Guest:One of the funniest dudes I ever met.
Marc:Very funny.
Marc:As a stand-up, no one could do crowd work like that.
Guest:No one, to this day, no one can do crowd work like Mike Sweeney.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:And he was like, man, he was like, you'll catch on.
Guest:He was like, and if you need any help, just let me know, but you're good.
Guest:And so I just sat there, and I tried to write stuff, and it just wasn't nothing landing.
Guest:And one day, they were writing a bit for Andy, because Andy's German, and they was trying to write a bit where Andy's going to Oktoberfest, and I didn't know what it was.
Guest:I was like, what's Oktoberfest?
Guest:And they were like, it's a drink a day for Germans.
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:Everybody got a drinking day.
Guest:Hispanics got Cinco de Mayo, Irish got St.
Guest:Patrick's Day, now they got that.
Guest:I'm like, black people need a drinking day.
Guest:And right at that moment, everybody in the room looked at me and was like, go write that up.
Guest:And I was like this, what?
Guest:Sweating bullets.
Guest:What?
Guest:They was like, go write that up.
Guest:I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do.
Guest:They were just like, we'll show you.
Guest:And they showed me this template, and they was like, go ahead, write down exactly what you just said.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:And I wrote it down, and they was like, Conan wants you to come out.
Guest:We're gonna open the curtain.
Guest:You're gonna come out, and you're gonna say exactly that.
Guest:Right on TV.
Guest:And I was like, what are you talking about?
Guest:And they was like, do that.
Guest:I said, okay.
Guest:And I did it.
Guest:and it took off yeah and then after that it's just one thing led to another and the next thing i was i was talking about um black there was no black haunted houses and then i started writing a bit on that and then it just became this thing that we were doing so you became this personality like this character yeah i became this yeah so you're almost like doing a sketch
Marc:You were like a recurring sketch character.
Guest:I was a recurring sketch character.
Guest:That's how it became.
Guest:And it became this thing where you got this real black dude from the south side of Chicago.
Guest:Like, what are you doing here, black dude?
Guest:And you got the whitest guy in America, went to Harvard, grew up in Boston.
Guest:Coming together, trying to understand whatever the situation was and just bouncing off of each other.
Guest:And it just became... That was it.
Guest:It took off.
Guest:It was, man.
Guest:People loved it.
Guest:It took off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was it.
Guest:And just next thing I know, I had two Emmy nominations and a Writers Guild, three Writers Guild nominations.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was great to quit.
Guest:Were you?
Guest:Because I didn't understand the magnitude of that.
Guest:I was still thinking stand-up.
Marc:Oh, so you were like, what am I doing?
Guest:When I first got there, yeah, because I'm like, man, if I don't work and I quit all these, I let all these.
Guest:Because that's our whole identity.
Guest:That's our, thank you so much.
Guest:My identity was hey.
Guest:I'm a stand-up.
Guest:I have these shows.
Guest:I'm a stand-up.
Guest:That's what this is.
Guest:So I didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Guest:But then when I did, I was like, oh, my God, how could I have even thought that way?
Marc:Because most of us don't do that.
Marc:I didn't know for years.
Marc:I knew guys would go right, and I'd be like, what the fuck?
Marc:You mean you gave up?
Marc:You couldn't cut it?
Marc:You can go right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and it never even dawned on me.
Marc:I can barely write for myself.
Marc:I'm going to sit in a room with a bunch of dudes trying to make jokes.
Marc:I never got much satisfaction out of jokes.
Marc:Like if I wrote a regular joke, like a structured joke, I would look at it and I'd be like, that's pretty good.
Marc:I'll do that once.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Because like jokes stop.
Marc:If I keep talking, it doesn't stop.
Marc:So what I grew to learn as I became more professional about it, and actually after watching,
Marc:Oddly, watching Bill Cosby himself, that it's all jokes.
Marc:The whole story's jokes.
Marc:The whole story's jokes.
Marc:You're just not looking at it.
Marc:You're not giving yourself enough credit.
Marc:These are all jokes, so if you can maximize
Marc:those jokes separately within the story, then you're doing the work.
Marc:Yeah, that's real.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And, yeah, that's great.
Marc:But you're sort of riding that line now where, you know, like the character you were doing on Conan is not that different from you, really.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you got traction on that, so if people come see you, you're going to be that guy.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So it's not like, that's not that guy from the TV show, because it was all, luckily, it was based on your...
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So now the comedy special on Comedy Central is gonna kind of solidify that.
Guest:Yeah, because it's so many people.
Guest:What's weird is because of me being on Black-ish,
Guest:Angie Tribeca.
Guest:A lot of people don't even know I do stand-up.
Marc:I know, it's weird.
Marc:It's the weirdest thing.
Marc:The media universe is so fragmented that when people go like, I love you on that show, you gotta be like, wait, which one?
Marc:What's your context of me?
Marc:Yeah, that's real though.
Marc:It is real.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I don't question anymore.
Marc:Some guy just came up to me in the back of the comedy store.
Marc:I hadn't even gone on stage yet.
Marc:Just walked by me and went, great job.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, I'll take it.
Marc:I'll take it, whatever it is, right.
Guest:But yeah, a lot of people, they go, like, they'll hit me on Instagram or Twitter and I'll be like, yo, like,
Guest:You're in stand-up?
Guest:You're doing stand-up?
Guest:I'm like, yeah.
Guest:Or a lot of people think that I'm just trying to do stand-up now.
Marc:That's the best because it's like what you do.
Marc:Yeah, that's what got me on these shows.
Marc:But you got like 20 years under your belt.
Marc:So these people are like, I just know you from that show.
Guest:You're like, well, watch this.
Guest:Yeah, and that's what happened.
Guest:Even with my special, when I take my comedy special, people were showing up.
Guest:going, yo, I want to see Charlie from Black-ish.
Guest:I want to see DJ Tanner or the guy from Conan.
Guest:And they got there and they're like, wait a minute.
Guest:This dude is hilarious.
Guest:Not knowing that.
Guest:I've been doing this for 23 years.
Guest:Man.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:It's almost like you were able to sort of like, it's like surprise.
Guest:Yeah, because it's like I got these shows.
Guest:Usually I think people do their hour specials and then they get
Guest:these television shows and movies and stuff it's like I had the bar I got the barbershop movie and I got these shows and then I went to my special so it's a different kind of take on this and I can't wait to see the outcome of this I just want everybody to check it out and then
Guest:come out to the show.
Guest:Because what I'm doing now is working on a whole new hour so when the show comes out it's cool.
Guest:And I'm close to it.
Guest:I think I'm up to like 40.
Marc:So then when the show comes out and it blows up then you can be like I'm gonna tour with a whole different hour.
Guest:That's the plan.
Guest:And that's where I am right now.
Guest:Right now I got like about 40, 45 like hot
Guest:I mean material.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:So by the time the 25th, I'm going to keep hitting stages until the 25th.
Guest:When the 25th hit, I should have a whole new- I'm doing that.
Marc:I'm building an hour.
Marc:I know.
Guest:It's so rough though.
Marc:Because when he started, because it used to be when you're just doing stand-up and doing clubs and shit, you just show up and kind of evolve.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It wasn't the same crew.
Marc:Not everybody knew you.
Marc:So you kind of just kept building the time you had.
Marc:And then when the stakes get higher and everybody's up your ass and knows everything you're doing.
Marc:Social media and all that shit.
Marc:But then you're sitting there, you're like, I gotta write a new hour.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then the next moment is like, how the fuck do I do that?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And it is so hard.
Guest:All at once.
Guest:And people don't understand that.
Guest:And they come out and they go, oh, that was great.
Guest:Okay, what you got next?
Marc:And it's like, what do you mean?
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:It took me a year to do it.
Marc:A year to put that together.
Marc:And I just, I got it polished.
Marc:I took it out.
Marc:You know, it was great.
Marc:I shot the special and what I got now, I got to throw that shit away.
Marc:And then not every, hardly anybody sees your shit.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you're playing to these nine people.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, that's the fucked up thing is like, you know, you assume like everybody here has seen it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then like if you, I used to ask, I'm like, how many people saw the special?
Marc:And if it would be like nine people out of 500, I'd be like, I'm doing that shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:You nine people talk to me after.
Marc:I'll do a couple new bits for you.
Guest:I'll do a couple new bits for you.
Guest:Just hang around.
Guest:Hang around.
Guest:I got some new material.
Marc:I've been working on this stuff.
Guest:I've been working on this shit that I want y'all to see.
Marc:Yeah, I've gotten, personally, I've gotten a lot more open and a lot more friendly, and it's difficult for me to be that way.
Guest:Yeah, you know what?
Guest:I used to be that way, like real secluded, and I used to be like... I used to be angry.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I used to always be like, especially when I came to LA, I used to be like, fuck LA, fuck LA.
Guest:See, I'm sick of these lame and these phony people and da-da-da.
Guest:And this one comedian chick named Dominique came up to me one day, and she was like, well, go home then, nigga.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:She was like, go home.
Guest:I'm so tired.
Guest:Every time I see you, you're complaining about L.A.
Guest:and it's always about Chicago and you're complaining about these lame motherfuckers.
Guest:Either play the game out here or take your ass home.
Guest:I don't know why that resonated with me more than anything.
Guest:It resonated with me.
Right.
Guest:I shut the fuck up after that.
Guest:And after that, I just like, okay, I have to do what I have to do.
Guest:I can't be as angry.
Guest:I have to just be nice and I have to be in this world and I have to- Well, just do your shit.
Guest:Do your shit and that's it.
Guest:And that's what I started doing.
Guest:And soon after that, that's when I got Conan and all this other great shit started happening.
Guest:Oh, she saved your life.
Guest:She saved my life and real life.
Guest:She was just like, yo, go your ass home.
Marc:So now, so the special comes out and you're recurring on Black-ish?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:What is that, like how many episodes you get a year?
Guest:Well, it just depends.
Guest:It depends on the networks and Kenya Barris and Tom Hinkle.
Guest:Tom Hinkle was with Angie Tribeca and Steve Carell and Nancy Carell.
Marc:That's a new show.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And how's that going?
Marc:It's great.
Marc:I haven't watched it.
Marc:Yeah, it's good, man.
Marc:I saw the billboard.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Guest:It's like Airplane and Naked Gun or whatever.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, I got to check that out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so funny because with me, I know about Black-ish, I know about Conan, but when I'm getting to hang you, I'm like, I'm just going to watch this stand-up.
Marc:I know, right?
Marc:That's all I need.
Guest:Because that's all that you need, right?
Marc:That's all you need.
Guest:But for the listeners.
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:They're doing a lot of good shit.
Guest:I don't want to trivialize it.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And I appreciate that.
Guest:But nowadays, you have to kind of link the face with the name sometimes with other things that you do.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:Because who knows what's watching what?
Guest:Who's watching what?
Guest:And then you want people to come see you when you do perform, you know?
Guest:And like JJ from Good Times?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't know his real name until I was 30.
Guest:I just was always, I was JJ, you know what I mean?
Guest:But until you learned his name, he was like, oh, okay, cool.
Guest:He does comedy.
Guest:Yeah, he does comedy.
Guest:That's how it started.
Marc:But who knew he did comedy?
Marc:I know I didn't.
Marc:So now, are you sort of, are you moving out of Conan?
Marc:You just sort of occasionally?
Guest:Well, because of all those shows that I do, I don't have...
Guest:the time to be over there as much as I used to.
Guest:But anytime I have time, I go over there and we always knock out bits.
Guest:All the time.
Guest:And we always stay in contact.
Guest:We go back and forth and be like, yo, should we do this and do that?
Marc:There's a lot of good comics on that.
Marc:Like Lori Kilmartin's great comic.
Guest:She's great.
Marc:That's fantastic.
Guest:Kylie.
Guest:Kylie.
Guest:That's my man.
Guest:Me and Kylie used to do
Guest:bits all the time where i wrote stuff and he would read it for me because i couldn't read all the black shit i wrote so it'd be great if this white guy read it for me yeah really white guy yeah yeah yeah so kylie we did open mics together kylie in boston man oh in like 90 i was still in college even like right after college like fucking late 80s dude yes i call i call him my sensei he's my sensei and
Guest:And Jose Arroyo, he's a great, great writer.
Guest:I call him my sensei, too.
Marc:And now, is your mom still alive?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Shout out to my mom.
Guest:Hey, mama.
Guest:Shout out to you.
Marc:How's she feeling about everything?
Guest:Man, she's ecstatic, man.
Guest:My mother is.
Guest:She don't work no more.
Guest:So, shit.
Guest:She chillin'.
Guest:I got her chillin'.
Guest:Worked out.
Guest:Yeah, it worked out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Getting that bucket of ice and those bologna sandwiches, it paid off.
Guest:That fucking salami paid off.
Guest:She made it, she is.
Guest:She kept me alive.
Guest:She fed me.
Guest:Paid off.
Guest:I'm going to give her all the salami she wants right now, man.
Guest:And she's in Chicago still?
Guest:Yeah, she's in Chicago.
Guest:She's chilling.
Guest:My son, Dylan.
Marc:You got a son?
Guest:Yeah, 13 is my son.
Guest:13?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Are you married?
Guest:No, no, I'm not married.
Guest:Just had one of them?
Guest:Yeah, I had one.
Guest:I mean, you know.
Guest:I've heard.
Guest:You've heard.
Guest:I've heard stories of that whole baby thing.
Guest:Yeah, but yeah, shout out to my son Dylan.
Marc:He's in Chicago too?
Guest:Yeah, he's in Chicago too.
Guest:With his mom?
Guest:Yeah, with his mom.
Marc:And you get along with her?
Guest:Yeah, we good people, man.
Guest:Yeah, shout out to Tamika.
Guest:That's my girl.
Guest:She holds it all down.
Guest:She holds it down when I'm gone.
Guest:Yeah, she keeps it together.
Marc:But you guys are together or you're not together?
Guest:No, no, we're not together.
Guest:We're good friends.
Guest:You're always there for the kid?
Guest:Always there.
Guest:We're good friends.
Guest:We're great parents.
Guest:There's no beef, no nothing.
Guest:Does the kid come out?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:He comes out here.
Guest:He comes out here, I go there, yeah.
Guest:We just went to the White House.
Guest:I took him to the White House.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:What'd you do over there?
Guest:Well, Obama had the cast of Black-ish come read stories, Easter egg stories for the kids.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Guest:We went in the White House and walked around.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Took bitches with Obama.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:Crazy town.
Guest:That was when they had to lock the White House down.
Guest:There was a shooting going on that same time we was there.
Guest:The guy showed up on the- Yeah, the Easter Sunday.
Guest:We was there.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:The whole cast.
Marc:And you were locked down?
Guest:Yeah, they locked down.
Marc:In the White House.
Guest:They locked the whole White House down, the whole lawn and everything.
Guest:Couldn't nobody leave or nothing.
Marc:Felt pretty safe, I guess.
Marc:Probably about the safest place it could be.
Guest:Man, there was snipers everywhere, Jack.
Guest:I kept trying to keep all the women from walking in front of the police.
Guest:I wanted them to stay focused.
Guest:I was like, get your ass out of here with your mini skirt on and shit.
Marc:He's got to focus on shit.
Marc:And what was Obama like for you?
Marc:man he's real cool he is right real cool yeah i mean easy going dude man laid back super chill you know he's very disarming because you're like it's the fucking president he's like what's up man you're like oh we're that way okay oh we're cool yeah yeah okay i didn't know we were gonna be cool we're just gonna talk like people you had him at your house yeah yeah and i was surprised because right away he's like yeah what's he's making fun of me in here and i'm like oh that's how it's gonna go
Marc:All right, cool, all right.
Marc:You're just a guy, I guess.
Marc:Just a guy that's the most powerful guy in the world, but you're just hanging out.
Guest:Talking about us, talking about me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, all right.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, he was great, man.
Guest:And yeah, we all went up there, and yeah, it was great, man.
Guest:Anthony Anderson and the whole cast and all of us went up there.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:That show's doing well.
Guest:Yeah, Black is just doing really good, man.
Marc:Do you have any, are you writing on that too, or do you have any input on it?
Guest:No, I wasn't even supposed to be on there.
Guest:I went over there to write.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:He hired you to write?
Guest:No, I was interviewing to write, and the guy that was supposed to play the character I play didn't show up, and I ended up playing him.
Guest:Let me tell you something.
Guest:Anything I've ever auditioned for, I've never got.
Guest:never it's always been off vibes that I had with people with Conan yeah my Angie Tribeca with Steve Carell I wasn't even supposed to be on that show neither Steve Carell wrote the part for me he didn't even it wasn't even a part for me he wrote me into that show
Guest:with the blackish, I just went to the world.
Marc:You went there to interview as a writer and the guy they hired to play the part didn't show up.
Guest:Right, and me and Kenya knew how, I have no idea.
Guest:Me and Kenya had an idea of how this character should be because the character's based off of him.
Guest:and he just asked me, yo, shit.
Guest:He was like, man, you should do it.
Guest:Like me, this lady who thought of me, her name was Tamara Goyne, she thought of me and was like, yo, you should get Deonna Wright over there, and then that's how it all went down, and he didn't show up, and I went, and I played.
Marc:Okay, well, I'm not gonna be specific here, but let this be a lesson to those who had concerns that maybe you show up on time.
Guest:Maybe time.
Guest:Just maybe.
Guest:You might want to show up on time.
Guest:I'm not being specific.
Guest:You dirty dog.
Guest:You are crazy as hell.
Guest:Well, there's going to be a lot more parts open, I tell you that much, because that's something that we have a problem with.
Guest:I was lost to coming here today.
Guest:You came on time.
Guest:Oh, God, that's so funny.
Marc:Well, I'm real happy for you, and I'm glad we did this.
Marc:It was a good time.
Marc:It was a great talk.
Marc:Man, this is great, man.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Can people see me on social media or whatever?
Guest:Go ahead, yeah.
Guest:It's at D-E-O-N-C-O-L-E on Instagram and Twitter.
Marc:And Twitter?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I don't even fuck with the Facebook.
Marc:You?
Marc:I'm on there.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:I don't pay attention.
Guest:It's like every time I get up some followers and some new shit hopping.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I get like 50,000 people and then they go, oh, that shit is whack.
Guest:Now we over here.
Guest:And I go, ah, damn.
Guest:And then I go over there and I try to build up followers and then they're like, ah, that's old.
Guest:It's never ended.
Guest:It's to the point where I'm like, I'm tired of that shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm happy you're not periscoping this right now.
Marc:And I don't even know what the fuck Snapchat is.
Guest:I hate that.
Guest:I'm on it, but I don't like it at all.
Guest:Why would you take a picture of something that's only going to be up for a little bit and then that's it?
Guest:If I'm going to take a picture of something, it's something that I want to keep.
Marc:Yeah, I don't, you know, sadly, I think most of it's designed for 12 year olds.
Marc:And we're just fucking all immature enough to think we got to keep up with this shit.
Guest:This is true.
Guest:Everybody want pictures and shit.
Guest:I tell people, you got to learn how to live in the present.
Guest:A lot of people don't know how to live in the present.
Guest:present yeah but how is any how is i want everyone to know i'm living in the present i want everybody to know i'm living in the present look at me i'm in the present right now and i'm sharing it with you okay look at me drinking coffee in the now in the now hashtag in the now mark mirin everybody that's the new show in the now in the now all right buddy thanks man love man
Bye.
Marc:Good times, right?
Marc:Funny fucking guy.
Marc:Smart guy.
Marc:Good stand-up.
Marc:Okay, and as always, go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get some posters.
Marc:We made some new... Well, we refilled the posters that are there.
Marc:And check the tour dates.
Marc:Check the catalog.
Marc:Get the Howl app so you can get the full archive.
Marc:Whatever you need to do.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Okay, I'm going to play my Les Paul.
Guest:.
Guest:.
Guest:.
Guest:Boomer lives!