Episode 71 - David Wain / "Troy"
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuckineers, how the fuck are you?
Marc:Did I forget to say, are we doing this?
Marc:Well, we are doing it.
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:You are listening to WTF.
Marc:I just got back from Max Fun Con up at Lake Arrowhead, where Jesse Thorne from Jordan Jesse Goh and from The Sound of Young America basically...
Marc:He acts as a sort of like, you know, he's a very magnanimous person and he's a wonderful guy, great radio personality.
Marc:But he runs this two day summer camp for comedy nerds.
Marc:And it was spectacular.
Marc:I performed up there with Maria Bamford, now magical and Jimmy Pardo.
Marc:I learned some things.
Marc:I saw some people I didn't know, watch some podcasts, met some fans.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was a great time.
Marc:And as I set up there, Jesse has helped me a great deal in setting up my podcast and getting everything going and getting everything, telling me what mics to get, how to plug them in.
Marc:And he's really been helpful.
Marc:Very nice guy.
Marc:I get up there and all of a sudden he's like, he's the guy in charge.
Marc:It's Papa Jesse.
Marc:And he is like the benevolent colonel of the nerd plantation.
Marc:It was very, very fun.
Marc:And I just got back, just drove in.
Marc:I wanted to get this in the can.
Marc:What am I going to tell you today?
Guest:First of all, let's do this.
Guest:I got to do it.
Guest:Hold on.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:I just shit my pants.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:You can get that at WTFPod.com.
Marc:Enjoy.
Marc:I'm trying to think what I'm thinking about because I'm going to play for you an interview I did with David Wayne.
Marc:Many of you know David Wayne from the state, if you were 12, and you've stayed with him since then.
Marc:You stayed with him through Stella.
Marc:You stayed with him through his movies.
Marc:And I interviewed him in New York.
Marc:I ran into him in a coffee shop.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, I've known him a long time.
Marc:I've known those guys a long time.
Marc:I always had a bit of a problem with those guys.
Marc:And I'm starting to realize, as you know, and as you listen to me, that a lot of my problems are self-generated.
Marc:They're selfish problems.
Marc:They're spiteful problems.
Marc:They're problems with jealousy and with this and with that, with all those things.
Marc:And he was one of those guys that I was jealous of.
Marc:I just I couldn't understand the popularity.
Marc:Why are these guys so damn popular?
Marc:But we had a conversation about show business, and there's something about if you're a talented person or you have a skill and you do that skill, either you do it okay or you do it once or twice and you think you're good at it and that's enough, or you commit your life to it and you do it.
Marc:I know I've had these conversations with you before, but what I'm starting to learn in my life, and it's not an easy lesson to learn, is that generally people who have success –
Marc:continuing success at anything.
Marc:The reason why they have it, whether or not you think they deserve it or not, is because they fucking work hard.
Marc:They work hard at it.
Marc:And I'd like to think I've worked hard in my career, but I'll tell you, there's a lot of things that go along with working hard.
Marc:Okay, I do this one thing.
Marc:I do comedy.
Marc:How do I get my comedy out there?
Marc:Well, I need to get on television.
Marc:How do I get it on television?
Marc:Well, I need to try to get an audition or I need to get my manager to talk to somebody.
Marc:I need to get on television because the other guys are getting on television.
Marc:I got to get on television.
Marc:How do I get people to like me?
Marc:Well, that's a whole other can of worms.
Marc:But when you talk to people that have success in their life and you start to realize, first, when I started doing this, I'm like, well, I'm a comic.
Marc:I'm a funny guy.
Marc:Someone will come get me.
Marc:Where's my dressing room?
Marc:When are they going to come get me?
Marc:When am I going to be delivered?
Marc:to fame.
Marc:So I'm just a guy sitting around thinking, telling jokes and waiting for that to happen.
Marc:Am I maintaining relationships with other comics or people in the business to sort of like become part of a community where everybody grows up together?
Marc:Like the way it works in my business, I imagine it's the same with any business is that you have peers who
Marc:That also they start out in different areas of the business you're in.
Marc:Like, you know, when I was younger, I started out with a lot of guys that, you know, and there were people that used to hang around that scene who went on to become agents or producers.
Marc:Everyone starts out the same age at some point and you get this tier of people that are peers and they talk to each other and they they work together and everyone comes up the same time.
Marc:That's the way it works in an industry.
Marc:That you create alliances.
Guest:You create friendships.
Guest:You create business partnerships.
Guest:But you know what I said to all that?
Guest:Fuck you, man.
Guest:I'm doing it my own way.
Guest:I'm a monad.
Guest:I'm a singular entity.
Guest:I'm a rogue.
Guest:I'll be out here doing what I do.
Guest:And you fuckers, you want to pretend like you're friends with everybody.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Go ahead and do that.
Guest:I'm going to be out here doing what I do alone.
Guest:I'm a cowboy.
Guest:Soon I will ride into town and the mayor will come out to greet me and I will be escorted to the set of the thing that will make me huge and everybody like me.
Guest:Not the case.
Guest:Not the case.
Marc:Now I am still a rogue.
Marc:I'm still doing what I do.
Marc:It just so happens that technology has finally enabled me to do exactly what I want to do without really relying on anybody.
Marc:I'm not saying I don't have friends.
Marc:I'm not saying that I don't try to be pleasant.
Marc:But there's some fucking thing wrong with my goddamn brain.
Marc:I'm not a very good ass kisser.
Marc:I can't even, you know, even and I'm a pretty good actor, man.
Marc:But even when I try to do it, it doesn't come off right.
Marc:I like to socialize.
Marc:I'm very intense, which means that a lot of times if I'm in a social situation, I'm hanging out with other people.
Marc:They automatically assume, well, he's arrogant.
Marc:He's aloof.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:I'm probably just thinking about me.
Marc:I mean, there's no arrogance in it.
Marc:But I feel like I've gotten better.
Marc:The point of all this is that there's so many elements to doing the work, to getting your particular brand of you, whatever business you're in out there, that requires a lot of politicking and social etiquette and graciousness and having to hang out with people you might not like and having to compromise a little bit in order to get a little traction.
Marc:I'm just no good at that shit.
Marc:You know, it's real easy to sit around and go, shit, man, why the fuck is that guy successful?
Marc:Well, probably works really hard at it.
Marc:And he's probably not a dick.
Marc:He may suck, but he's probably not a complete dick and apparently can work with other people.
Marc:I'm just barely being able to do that now.
Marc:It's a good time in my life because it was great to be up at MaxFunCon because there's a lot of people.
Marc:Socializing was nice.
Marc:It was nice to hang out with people and not wander off by myself or be a dick.
Marc:I may have been a dick for a second, but I usually catch it.
Marc:I have a dick filter now.
Marc:Like there's a part of my brain where it's like something will come out of my mouth and it's like, holy shit.
Marc:And the dick filter, like try to suck it back in.
Marc:Sometimes it gets out, but then I apologize.
Marc:I give myself like a 15 to 20 second apology range to compensate for the dickishness that didn't get caught by the dick filter.
Marc:So I hope I'm doing that a little more.
Marc:But, you know, I got no real advice.
Marc:You know, all I know is, you know, learning from my own mistakes is that, you know, I think innately I love hanging out with other people.
Marc:I love talking to other people.
Marc:But there's some part of me that just doesn't want any help and has a hard time seeing myself as someone who needs help or kisses ass or sells out or compromises, you know, doing all those things, even in personal relationships.
Marc:You know, I don't want to compromise.
Marc:Okay, so I guess then we have no choice but to say no or to say I'm leaving or to say you're a dick.
Marc:You need to get a dick filter put into your head.
Marc:Well, I got that now.
Marc:I think they have them at the Apple store.
Marc:I like using the stand-up mics because we're stand-up guys.
Marc:Well, you're more than that.
Marc:I'm talking to David Wayne.
Guest:I'm less than that.
Marc:You're less than that?
Marc:We'll talk about it.
Marc:No, we can talk about it.
Marc:We're at the Standard Hotel in New York City overlooking what chunk of Manhattan.
Marc:I guess we're looking sort of northeast.
Guest:The meatpacking district.
Marc:I think we're looking northeast at the Empire State Building.
Marc:And I am here with David Wayne.
Marc:David Wayne, of course, a...
Marc:Originally a member of the state and then onward to be a member of Stella onward to to direct motion pictures and television and write motion pictures.
Marc:And somebody, quite honestly, as as I do many times in these podcasts, I think I might have an apology to.
Marc:No, I am not.
Marc:I'm not ashamed of that.
Marc:I believe that for a long time, David, I really found you to be a little arrogant and somewhat snobby.
Marc:And I and I treated you as such.
Marc:And I condescended to what you were doing with the Stella and everything.
Marc:I am sorry for that.
Guest:Well, I thank you for saying that.
Guest:And I probably had a very similar reaction back to you.
Guest:Oh, there's my phone.
Guest:So there was a genuine tension.
Guest:Well, for me, well, I see it was interesting because I always thought.
Guest:So you came and performed... Well, first I came and performed at Luna from time to time.
Marc:My turf.
Guest:Your turf.
Guest:Rebar before that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And that was like my introduction to alternative comedy.
Guest:That was the first time I'd seen any of these people.
Guest:And I associated you and Louis C.K.
Guest:and Janine and that whole scene, Todd Berry at the time.
Guest:And you guys were a few years older than us, but...
Guest:I felt very intimidated by that, your group and, and you, to me, always represented in my head, like here's, this guy is a, is like a real standup doing true shit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And actually like getting up there and practicing the art of comedy in a way that I haven't done.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Didn't do.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Still haven't done.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:you know and I was just telling someone yesterday that of all the things I've I'm I'm very proud of my career and the things I've done in my in my body of work but there's always been this level at times where I'm like oh I'm cheating because we're like undercutting what you're really going to do or something like that or the reality of it or the truth undercutting in what way that you you thought you were that whatever you do is not getting at the truth or that is it about stand-up
Guest:It's about that I would always give myself a shield like we're working in a trio.
Guest:I'm working with a sketch group.
Guest:I'm working with a concept.
Guest:I'm purposely being terrible.
Guest:I'm purposely undercutting the bit so that I don't actually have to get out there and deliver it.
Marc:Risk failing on a deeper level.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:No, I know what you're saying.
Marc:I see a lot of that.
Marc:But the weird thing about your approach to it, like you were feeling that about me.
Marc:And yet when you guys came in, you had already had this amazing success as a sketch troupe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And this is something I'd like to talk about a little bit is I've never seen a group of guys maintain a following like you guys do.
Marc:I mean, you got most of these kids when they were 10.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now they're, what, 30?
Marc:And most of them seem to still be there.
Marc:And that was a very active campaign on your part in many ways that I'd like to talk about.
Marc:But I think my resentment of you was the exact same thing.
Marc:Was that like you were feeling the right thing.
Marc:It's like, who the hell are these guys?
Marc:Right.
Marc:These sketch performers, these actors.
Marc:Because at that time, alternative comedy didn't really exist.
Marc:I mean, Janine, Louis, myself were all working in comedy clubs.
Marc:We were just utilizing this new avenue of performance.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Which you ultimately ended up legitimizing.
Marc:You and Scott Aukerman and a few other alternative comedy producers.
Guest:And on the East Coast, that was our very deliberate goal, was to take that kind of thing where it's like these comics going every week and trying out their material and testing out a different
Guest:kind of stand up that you wouldn't do in the normal clubs right and we always we thought it was so amazing give it a real night not a testing out night like give it like a full-on fancy show and that's why we dress up in suits at first and like because like let's make it real you know and let's make it like you pay for you pay to see this yeah and I think my first reaction to Stella was like how the fuck do these guys get so many people in a room yeah
Marc:I mean, do this many people, are they that attached to the state that they can manage to continue to have a career with those fans?
Guest:You know, our cockiness served us for so long.
Guest:And I wasn't the leader of that.
Guest:So that's gone now?
Guest:Well, I was never, I wasn't like the driver of the cocky side of it as much.
Guest:When the state happened, we went, you know, we barged into MTV.
Guest:We like, when they were like, fuck you, you don't know what we're doing, you know, like as 22 year old kids.
Guest:And that served us really well because the people there didn't know what they were doing either.
Guest:And they were the 26 year old executives.
Guest:And so we were just like,
Guest:And there were how many of you?
Guest:Ten?
Guest:Eleven.
Guest:So they couldn't defend themselves.
Marc:They're like, there's a lot of these guys here and they seem to know what they want to do.
Guest:And yeah, they were like, you know, some of you aren't camera ready.
Guest:So, you know, and we're like, you know what?
Guest:We're doing it our way or it's the highway and fuck you.
Guest:And they seem to like buy into our shtick.
Guest:And so then we started buying into our shtick and it went on like that.
Guest:And then with Stella, you know, yeah, we certainly built on that fan base.
Guest:And there is something, you know...
Marc:i don't want to diminish it there's something about we what we did as a group and then what we continue to do that like resonates with some devoted following well and also like the the number of guys that came out of there and women one who who maintained and nurtured fairly big careers in show businesses the numbers are pretty good it's amazing i mean tom lennon
Marc:uh his partner what's his name ben grant ben grant uh michael ian black right michael showalter is doing his own thing but equally as uh yeah as impressive and now kevin is doing risk which is a great podcast ken marino ken marino is doing uh he's doing well he works with me a lot we we write most of our stuff together and he's directing and he's doing a lot of great acting stuff he's on the show party down
Marc:Well, that's a testament to a type of ambition that you don't see, certainly at that stage in my generation of stand-ups.
Marc:I mean, I think that the notion of working with other people and having the selflessness to do that and the joy to do that and the capacity to do that yields a more fruitful career.
Guest:And it's a whole other thing.
Guest:I know just from the legend or from listening to podcasts and so forth, I know what stand-up world is like, but I've never done it.
Guest:I've never experienced it.
Guest:It's not pretty.
Guest:My whole way of working has never been alone.
Guest:You know, I've always worked with either partners or a large, you know, seven years with 11 people.
Guest:You were on for seven years on the state?
Guest:No, but we were together.
Guest:We hooked up in college, first year.
Guest:What college?
Guest:NYU.
Guest:Isn't that amazing?
Guest:So we, yeah, by my sophomore year, the group had sort of gelled, and then by the time we graduated, we were on our way to, you know, we did You Wrote It, You Watch It, MTV, and then we, it was a very lucky ride.
Marc:Well, I didn't realize that you guys were like, I didn't even know how to have a career.
Marc:I was so emotionally distraught and crazy and all I wanted to do was stand up.
Marc:And I never really knew that there was politics involved, that there was networking involved, that there was presentations to make.
Marc:And I was like, where's the mic?
Marc:But you guys were able to like, how many seasons was it on the state?
Guest:Well, we did four batches of like six or six.
Guest:We ended up doing 28 episodes or something.
Guest:It wasn't that much.
Marc:And you went on to direct the Daily Show episodes?
Guest:Well, I did some segments for the original Daily Show pre-John Stewart.
Marc:With Greg Kilbourne.
Guest:Yeah, but nothing like...
Guest:major but then and then i uh you know i had a uh period from the end of the state all the way through the beginning of the stella series on comedy central which was about seven or eight years where i did a lot of stuff because like we were doing their stella show at fez and i did make my movie wet hot american summer but
Guest:I wasn't making a living doing it at all during that period.
Guest:And I was constantly just trying to drum up various projects and none of them quite gelling or quite working out.
Guest:And that was my like really struggly dark period, which came after being on the state, you know, and having success.
Marc:And you guys are all still friends for the most part.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like being, it's like being a family, you know, but it seems that you are really the, uh, the auteur of the group.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:Well, I mean, you make movies, uh,
Marc:Well, oh, oh.
Marc:In a sense, that's where you went.
Marc:That's where I went, yes.
Marc:And that's a big thing.
Marc:I mean, it's not easy to direct a film.
Marc:It takes a certain personality.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And when you guys did Hot American Summer, this is the interesting thing to me.
Marc:It was, what was it like then?
Marc:You sit down, you have this movie.
Marc:It was a cult favorite.
Marc:It certainly, you know, regrouped your state fans.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that was, I guess, the first real realization that, you know, you still had these people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But somehow or another, you actually did almost a political campaign with that movie.
Guest:Well, only like you would do with any indie movie.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Because there's no marketing, real marketing.
Guest:There's no commercials.
Marc:But I'd never seen it done with sort of like hands-on, grassroots, like you come to these screenings in New York.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Frankly, we just were... I was 30 years old.
Guest:I didn't have any other job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And this movie I knew was getting no publicity.
Guest:And I loved it.
Guest:I was really excited about it.
Guest:And so...
Guest:And everyone involved in it was in a similar position.
Guest:So everyone had sort of the time and the enthusiasm and the energy to like, let's do a big, we did a lot of like parties and events and like shows and like, it's the wet hot premiere show and like, you know.
Guest:didn't that happen also like after long after the release that wasn't it resurrected again yeah well there was that and that was largely out of my doing there was the midnight screenings there still are it's it's become a cult movie it's become like this like iconic cult movie having nothing to do anymore with me and i'm very very proud of that do you still uh are there returns from it
Guest:You know, it's never it's still not made an actual profit.
Guest:It was made for one point eight million.
Guest:And I theoretically it's still only gross less.
Guest:But so, yeah.
Marc:But it still keeps you guys and your fans aware and, you know, unified somehow.
Guest:Yeah, people come up to me and give me, you know, props for it all the time.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Which I love.
Guest:I mean, the state and Wet Hot American Summer and Stella, there's something about it that it's probably that same thing, like the cheating thing that people, some people are like really relate to it because you're like, yeah, it's not, it's different, you know, I don't know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But how is that the cheating thing?
Marc:You feel, you still feel like you've gotten away with something?
Guest:No, I mean, I want to be clear.
Guest:I'm not being falsely modest.
Guest:I feel like I've worked my ass off and I feel like I have talent and I know what I'm doing and I've worked really, really hard on all the things that have gotten fans that I've done.
Guest:But it's that thing of like, well, it doesn't matter if they really care about the characters because it's supposed to be stupid.
Guest:Did you make it with the idea of it becoming a cult movie?
Guest:No, we we were, you know, blissfully young and not really thinking about where we'd go or how we just thought it would be a movie and it would come out.
Guest:But what happened is it did way worse in the theatrical run than we had hoped or even thought.
Guest:But, you know, it's lasted 10 times longer than we ever imagined.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it seems to have a life of its own.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And the Stella thing, I think you guys are really the first ones that I remember.
Marc:And of course, I resented that, too, that were using multimedia that were, you know, like none of you were really stand ups and you were doing this sort of Rat Pack thing with the suits and just having a good time.
Marc:And then you'd show films.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it became sort of this multimedia event.
Marc:And that enabled you to sort of vertically market yourselves and the show.
Marc:Like, was there always the intention?
Marc:Never a plan.
Guest:Honestly, we were like one about a year into doing the show at Fez.
Guest:Showalter was like, let's do a video tonight.
Guest:You know, and that day we went and, you know, shot a video and we kept our suits on just because it was pretending was the day before the show.
Guest:Uh, and the video, you know, everyone loved it.
Guest:A little three minute thing.
Guest:This is, you know, way before YouTube or anything.
Guest:Um, and then little by little, we're like, okay, we can make more of these videos and we start passing out tapes and then putting them on the internet as the internet was growing.
Guest:And, uh, I, I would like to say we had a whole plan, but we, like you were visionary.
Guest:I mean, like, the UCB, from my view, came into town with a plan.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, they stormed into New York and said, we're going to systematically take over comedy, which they have since done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We, A, didn't do that, and B, whatever we did do, we didn't plan it, really.
Marc:And the Stella show on Comedy Central, why did that not stick?
Guest:Well, because nobody watched it.
Marc:Oh, that still counts for something?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:I mean, I wish they had, you know, it was a classic example of a lot of things that I've been involved in where, you know, the executives supposedly loved it and the audience that was there loved it, but the audience was too small.
Marc:I'm finding that when executives say they love something, it's a kiss of death.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah well it's always this thing like i love it yeah or i love you and it's like well you're in charge of the network so if you love it make it happen what's the problem like what happened to that you know everyone fantasize in movies too you fantasize about the days when you know jack warner said i like this so we're gonna do it that's the end of it and i own you guys for the rest of time yeah you would be open to that right
Guest:No, I'm sure.
Guest:I trusted the guy.
Guest:I wish we had done more of the Stella series because I feel like by the end of 10 episodes, you know, that's a season on cable.
Guest:It's not 26.
Guest:And so after 10 episodes, I feel like we finally were getting a glimpse of how to do it really great.
Guest:And then we never had a chance to try.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now in terms of the guys, you know, I know you have different careers, but there must have been some like I've watched Michael and Michael and I've seen you guys together.
Marc:I mean, there must have been bickering and problems.
Guest:Oh, yeah, hugely.
Marc:Between which personalities?
Guest:Well, Michael and Michael and I are very, very different, all three of us.
Guest:And a lot of the conflict on stage or on screen is very similar to what it is in real life.
Guest:And certainly their show, Michael and Michael, is like a verbatim, from my view, is a verbatim portrait of their real selves.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:They don't even really exaggerate it from what I can tell.
Guest:Right.
Guest:um but you know i mean it's just like getting every three different three different people even though we all kind of grew up together and you know we've been working together since we're 18 we still have three different points of view on certain things and you know there's just little little meaningless things that piss each other off and then you work together so closely with just the three of us for so intensely for so long and you know doing our tv show was incredibly grueling and we you know we did a lot of stuff we toured and
Guest:We had a great time at times, but, you know, of course, it's constant, like, you know.
Marc:Yeah, Michael Ian Black's the only one that, like, I could not separate his stage persona from him.
Marc:And I just always felt like, is he really a dick?
Marc:And I, you know, I don't, and he's the only one that has kids, huh?
Marc:No, I have a kid now.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Yeah, I have a two and a half year old.
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Has that changed your life?
Guest:Of course, in every way.
Marc:Has it made you a more humble person filled with humility?
Guest:All the cliches.
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:I mean, well, I feel more grounded and more directed.
Guest:Are you married?
Guest:More productive.
Guest:Yeah, I'm married.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When did that happen?
Guest:uh look at everybody growing up a year after the baby was born uh-huh um yeah no i met a nice girl married her it's yeah i've i thought i the last few years i like totally turned into an adult in every way like i i got married i had a kid i like uh you know i had my first my parent my mother pass away like you know i made my first like real you know big budget movie and
Marc:Yeah, it's just like everybody growing up.
Marc:They make their first real big budget movie.
Guest:Everyone needs to do that.
Guest:If you really want to, you have to direct a big budget movie to really understand what it is to be a human being.
Guest:That's my recommendation for all the people down in Haiti.
Guest:They want to get some perspective.
Marc:Stop feeling sorry for yourself.
Marc:Get out and direct a big budget picture.
Guest:Get out there.
Guest:It's like, I don't feel sorry for them.
Guest:Get out there.
Guest:Go to Universal.
Guest:Make your pitch.
Guest:Or take an open directing assignment and see what you can do.
Marc:Well, I'm sorry to hear about your mom.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I haven't had to experience that yet.
Marc:And I have to imagine that on some...
Guest:deep emotional level that that happening has got to really make you realize that your own your own mortality of course yeah i mean it dropped although i it was sort of the last piece in this like drop kicking into adulthood that i went through and so by the time that happened thank god i i would say
Guest:I was really prepared because sort of everything had turned over in my life.
Guest:And so then by then I was like, okay, I was more prepared for it basically.
Guest:And then, but I feel like I've now emerged.
Guest:I turned 40, I'm 40 years old now.
Guest:I'm like, okay, I'm for sure not a kid anymore.
Marc:Yeah, I think there's part of those two events, essentially the death of a parent and certainly a child.
Marc:I wish I could not make one of my parents die, but I wish that I don't have either of those things, and I still feel like part of me is not quite getting the adult thing.
Sure.
Guest:Well, what's great about it is at least one of them will happen.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And probably, hopefully, all of those things will happen.
Guest:And it doesn't matter what age you are.
Guest:It'll happen.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can't be immature.
Marc:I should tell my father that.
Marc:Maybe if I could call him up and tell him that you can grow up, Dad, maybe that would be helpful.
Marc:So let's talk about the movie career.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Now, did you do these Wainy Day segments before you got married?
Marc:Because wasn't that essentially so you could kiss actresses?
Guest:Or am I wrong?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, I've been with my now wife for five years.
Guest:Is she an actress?
Guest:She is an actress.
Guest:She's actually in the Wainy Days show.
Guest:Which one is she?
Guest:Her name is Zandi, and she's a blonde, and she sits with me in the sweat shop.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Guest:And yes.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Who did you kiss?
Guest:Who did I kiss on the show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:I mean, all these beautiful actresses.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, name a few.
Marc:Elizabeth Banks.
Marc:You kissed her?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I did.
Marc:Who is the best kisser out of all of them?
Guest:Well, you know, I really, because I actually am married and it doesn't have the same thrill as like actually.
Guest:Don't bullshit me.
Guest:It doesn't.
Guest:It sucks.
Guest:I wish I could.
Guest:I can't even like really get into it.
Marc:Technique wise.
Guest:banks is a great kisser okay good she's an old friend so you kissed her before no no no oh okay because i would know because she's been married since since for like 15 years she's been married since she married the guy she met in college oh no kidding yeah i gotta mark that off the list well she's got this persona being you know very sultry and sexy and flirty which she is but and but she's married and faithful
Marc:I just saw Gretchen Maul over at the Chelsea Market.
Guest:She's gorgeous.
Guest:Did you kiss her?
Guest:No, but I worked with her.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:On my movie, The Ten.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've always thought, I mean, she's just the best.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So, Wet Hot American Summer, and then you went through a bunch of stuff, and then all of a sudden, you wrote, The Ten was the first one you wrote and directed since Wet Hot American Summer?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So, was that 10 years between those two things?
Marc:Six.
Marc:Six.
Marc:Now, that was something you wrote.
Guest:But there was like almost more interesting is all the false starts.
Guest:Like there was like 15 things that I almost kind of did or almost got to the point of making.
Guest:And I had this one incredible experience where I was up for this movie and I spent like two months prepping and everything.
Guest:And then finally I got to I flew myself to L.A.
Guest:and I walked across the lot at Paramount to Pitchman thing.
Guest:I had a huge binder with all of my materials that I prepared for 10.
Guest:No, this is for a movie to direct that I love the script that they were doing.
Guest:And as I'm walking up to the gate, I get the call from my agent like, oh, the meeting's canceled.
Guest:They already hired someone else.
Guest:Go home to New York.
Guest:And that was my moment.
Guest:That was one of my big moments in my life where I was like, okay, I guess if I don't quit now, then I never will because this is what I do.
Marc:Well, I think maybe we should walk this through because I've not talked to people that have directed pictures.
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:First of all, it's my understanding that you have to get people aligned with this.
Marc:So you're a fairly sociable guy.
Marc:You've got Liev Schreiber.
Marc:You've got some other, at least people who have done movies.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you knew them socially or...
Guest:So, uh, some, well, like Leah, a lot of people, I, you know, people like Paul Rudd and other people I've associated with, I met them very sort of briefly at Stella at our show at Fez.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I mean, you know, like he, he was there cause another actor that he, you know, Zach Orth was friends with cause he had worked with something.
Marc:I met Zach.
Marc:Zach's sort of a New York fixture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great guy.
Guest:And he's been in a lot of our, all of our stuff or a lot of our stuff.
Guest:Anyway, my point is a lot of these people I just knew very parenthetically.
Marc:But you knew enough to say, you know, I did this.
Marc:Take a look at it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Although, for example, Liev Schreiber, you know, like it was more just we just sent it through the normal channels.
Guest:We just sent it to their agent.
Guest:But then we sort of add this thing like, oh, he knows who I am, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And a lot of those people like Famke Jansen was in the tent.
Guest:I mean, honestly, she would have to like really rack her brain to remember having met me once and saying hello.
Guest:Right.
Guest:event somewhere so but that's one of the reasons another reason I love the weiny days is it's been a chance to actually like meet and work for a day with this actor this person this crew person and then then when you get to making the feature you've actually have something to go back to and say
Guest:Oh, I know her.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I think that a lot of people who listen to my podcast are creative people and they're artists and they're people that have aspirations that I don't think some people really realize the process of actually getting something from the script to even in the hands of somebody that you can then say, well, so-and-so is interested in this and she signed on.
Marc:Does this make you more interested?
Marc:Can I direct my own movie?
Marc:Now, were there lines drawn once you got people attached where you said that the only way I'm going to do this is if I direct it?
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, with the first one, with Wet Hot American Summer, well, with every movie I've put together on my own, I've said, this is for me to direct, and that's the point.
Guest:Were there studios involved in all of them?
Guest:None of them.
Guest:Where'd you get the money?
Guest:The first one was we had a producer, a small producer in New York named Howard Bernstein, and he, over three years, kind of cobbled together the tiny budget just from one investor at a time, and it was really...
Guest:painful because there were so many moments where somebody came in and said okay i'm paying for this we're going yeah company right and they look you in the eye and then the next day they literally don't return your call again that's it that's it all the time yeah really no i mean that happens when they cancel shows yeah all of a sudden someone goes oh you didn't hear no one told you oh it's not happening
Guest:well people disappear yeah people are just like it's like and i it was a good early lesson to not believe anything ever you know like and it's you know i i'm right now in prep for what i think is my next movie that i think is going to shoot in the fall but you know i don't even it's sort of a bummer because you can't ever really get excited about it because you it's it will fall apart or it won't but if it doesn't then you're now shooting and you're too busy to think about it and
Marc:Well, that's the interesting thing about show business is that you have this stuff that is your life work.
Marc:You've invested a lot of time.
Marc:And at some point, you've got to realize that the odds of this happening are small.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that rejection is almost inevitable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or compromise.
Marc:And that you have to temper that.
Marc:You know, so here you are pursuing this thing that you want to do with your life.
Marc:And you can never get excited about it until it's done.
Guest:Well, what's weird about it is like, you know, I'm by my own measure...
Guest:have reached certain milestones that I'm really happy about.
Guest:And I'm very, you know, I'm perceived as successful by many and I, and I'm happy about that too.
Guest:But like my point is there's never like the celebration of it.
Guest:Like, like when, when, when the state got a deal to do something, we went out and, you know, celebrated for a week.
Guest:We were so excited, you know, now it's like you grow up and you're like, well, maybe who knows, you know?
Guest:And then it's a, it's a, it's an interesting dynamic.
Guest:So the 10 didn't do great.
Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:Although, technically, it actually grossed more in theaters than Wet Hot American Summer.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you went on to do The Baxter.
Marc:The Ten is great, though.
Marc:Yeah, it's The Ten Commandments, right?
Guest:I'm very proud of it.
Guest:I hope your listeners might check it out.
Guest:The Baxter, I was just an actor for a couple days on.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Mike Showalter wrote and directed that movie.
Marc:So now the role model saying, well, I mean, I just don't, you know, I don't, I'm just curious to see how one, you know, sustains this, this, this, because now you've got a chance, even though the two movies that you did do did not succeed at the box office in numbers, you were given the opportunity to direct a big budget movie, which was role models.
Guest:And there's no way to say it any other way, which is that it's because of Paul Rudd.
Guest:Paul was in both my first two tiny, independent, money-losing movies.
Guest:And then he was involved with this much bigger budget studio comedy, and the director fell out kind of last minute.
Guest:Oh, and they were scrambling and it was sort of a perfect opportunity.
Guest:And Paul recommended me and the producer of the movie took a meeting and thought, OK, let's give it a shot.
Guest:And so I came in six weeks before shooting and rewrote the script with Paul and Ken Marino from scratch.
Marc:Now, what's going on in your head when they're like, okay, you can do it?
Guest:Well, frankly, I was very conflicted about taking the job.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because you're afraid that this isn't my project and if I fail at this job of director, then I'm fucked.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And I probably would have been.
Guest:I mean, frankly, it was just really, I went on this rafting trip right then with my friend.
Marc:That's always what you should do.
Guest:well I wish I could do that more often but it was like a perfect you know three days of thinking about it and I was really going over the pros and cons because I did not think the script was strong and I didn't think so I'm like okay I'm gonna make this terrible terrible movie and then I'll never get another chance you know movie jail it happens all the time yeah is that what it's called movie jail that's what they call it
Guest:And I was like, OK, maybe that's just what it is.
Guest:And then I'll just try it and then I'll come back and I'll do my things that I do in New York and it's all good.
Guest:But and then I then I somehow, you know, I decided, OK, it's I can use the money.
Guest:I just let me just I'll try it, you know, because my wife was already pregnant at the time.
Guest:right and uh so i took a whack and we did it and i can honestly say it was a combination of many things but one big big element was dumb luck that it kind of came together and it connected okay right it did really well i mean for it did much better than anyone expected and it did and it was better than most people thought it would be yeah i know people who love the movie
Guest:yeah it's like i like it a lot it what what it's ace in the hole is that it looks terrible and then you see it and you're like oh it's actually there's like little strains of edge to it and stuff and you know what would you call um well i mean all those movies and trailers look stupid yeah most comedies right
Marc:But what was it now, if you're going to say for yourself as an auteur that your sense of comedy or what you're going to bring to a film, what are you looking to do?
Marc:What would you call your signature elements of what you think are good?
Marc:Like in the moments that you scripted or in the moments in that movie that you just described that it has this other thing that people wouldn't suspect, what is it that...
Guest:Well, I mean, you know, I've always sort of put in my mind goes sort of meta when I look at a piece of material.
Guest:I'm always looking to either subtly or not comment on it itself, I guess, is one one element.
Marc:So, you know, so that's that thing that you said was maybe not a good thing.
Guest:Well, it depends on your perception.
Guest:But like what was fun for me with the role models thing was you couldn't really do that in a big studio comedy.
Guest:And so it was like, how do you.
Marc:To comment on the material itself.
Guest:How do you do subtle comments on the material?
Guest:You know, how do you like.
Guest:So you put in these.
Guest:In the subtext.
Marc:So that part of the David Wayne oeuvre would be that you condescend to the material at hand for comedic purposes.
Marc:That also protects you from that thing you were talking about before, the notion of failure.
Marc:Even if the movie sucked, you could come out saying, but we kind of knew.
Marc:The movie was aware of itself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I've got I've actually grown tired of even that notion.
Guest:And I and the goal, I think, is to like sort of have a self-awareness, but then also deliver the goods that that's my hope.
Guest:That's the that's what I try to do, like actually make you care about it, actually find truth in the story, find something that matters to you, you know, and that's a grown up perspective.
Guest:Well, but to a greater or lesser degree, I have tried that in the other two movies I made.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But but, you know, those the first two movies were utterly had absurdist.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Tendencies.
Marc:But so now you want to go a little deeper and certainly taking on the Ten Commandments is no small task.
Guest:But we did it with such abandon.
Guest:It was a big fuck you.
Guest:It was a big joke.
Guest:In fact, the first draft of the script ended with this music... It still had a musical number, but it used to end with a song where the lyrics essentially said... They literally said, we gave you 10 stories, and so if you didn't like it, fuck you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But...
Marc:I think that's an interesting thing, because I find that I've had this conversation with people before about the nature of of of this more kind of nerdy, higher end alternative comic sensibility that there there is an avoidance element, a detachment from from from dealing with what you're saying are elemental human truths in a fairly raw or honest way.
Marc:And I've always thought it was defensiveness because they're protecting the fact that they might not have those experiences.
Marc:And also there's this other element that I think is very interesting that you brought up is that when you do slightly condescend or get meta, you kind of protect yourself.
Guest:Yes, you're building a wall.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And that's what you don't do.
Guest:See, that's what I, and I honestly think of, when I think of what I don't do, the name Mark Maron comes to mind all the time.
Guest:Because I'm like, here's a guy who I have very specific experiences.
Guest:very particular memories of watching at Luna Lounge, you know, and saying, like, this guy is just, like, doing, like, he has an art of communicating that has nothing to do with what I do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it seems to me that the point is, is that as you get older, if there's any, you know, through line to what we're talking about, is that, you know, you're maturing, you've been, you know, you're starting to realize that life is what it is, and that your attempt now is to integrate that into what you're doing.
Guest:Kind of, but, like, yes...
Guest:In Stella even, for example, on a great night of our show, which is really, really absurd, like detached to the nth degree, I feel like I have now developed a vessel for what I do where truth can actually go down that pike in a really cool way.
Marc:I know exactly what you're saying, that in those moments where you're just three guys that have known each other for 20 years on stage, that something happens on a human level between you that I think I would imagine most of the time is spontaneous initially.
Marc:Well, and Stella at its best over all the years we've done it was like a jazz band.
Marc:Yeah, no, I think that's right.
Marc:And I think that that is one of the reasons why your fans adore you still is that you've struck a balance because I'm no fan of absurdism in a general sense, even from even of the people that that created it, like, you know, like the Dada movement or Ian Esco plays.
Marc:It was never my bad because I just can't I can't fucking pay attention if something isn't at risk.
Marc:And I think that what happens when things get real on stage is that the risk is just that you're being human and you take care of each other despite the fact that you have differences.
Guest:And I feel like all the best stuff that I feel like I've ever done from the state till now, it has truth.
Guest:And I'm always searching for what's real to me, but it's a different definition than what you might do on stage as a stand-up because I'm not talking necessarily about my real life like what I did today, but I'm...
Guest:I'm constantly and I'm becoming more of like a robot, like a machinist.
Guest:I don't know what the word is about.
Guest:I'm writing and I'm like, nope, that line's not true.
Guest:That sentence's not true.
Guest:That action's not true.
Guest:That shot's not true.
Guest:And I'm always trying to be like, no, I want to believe that.
Guest:I need to believe that.
Guest:Even if the overall comedic concept might be utterly absurd or silly, you know.
Marc:Well, I think I think that I've got a new respect for you now just from having this conversation and that your craft is is honoring a comedic vision that that you've had for a long time that you like doing absurd, broad comedy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If it's smart.
Guest:And I'm particularly proud.
Guest:The thing I'm probably most proudest of anything I've done is just the fact that there's been a continuum that feels like a singular body of work for me, you know.
Marc:Now, would you ever think, you know, I talked to Bob Odenkirk not long ago.
Marc:Would you ever think to do something, you know, insanely personal and something that, you know, has a different feel than what you're establishing?
Marc:Yes, I would love to.
Guest:I don't know when or what.
Guest:And it might be sooner.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I.
Guest:I know that I, I know I don't want to just do the same thing all the time, you know, and I don't necessarily always want to do comedy and I don't, I just, but I'm not, I also feel like pretty much every thing I've done that I've felt good about has kind of organically happened in one way or another.
Guest:And then I see it happening and then I push it.
Guest:That's everything.
Guest:Like Stella, all of it has always been like, oh, let's take that thing that's already kind of going and now let's push it further.
Guest:So I feel like that's what'll maybe happen at some point.
Guest:Now, do you now you come from by the way, you say this.
Guest:We've known each other 15 years.
Guest:We never had a conversation.
Guest:Well, I find that with a lot of people I interview, which is great.
Marc:It's the best because, you know, I well, I'm at a point in my life where, you know, I enjoy I've always enjoyed talking to people.
Marc:But for some reason, you know, when you're in show business.
Marc:And if you don't have a clique or a gang, there's a type of terminal politeness and confidence that is assumed just in order to survive.
Marc:And also there's a competitiveness, whether anyone's willing to admit it or not.
Marc:And also I don't maintain a lot of friendships.
Guest:But as people get older, you need to find reasons to talk to people.
Guest:They had a dinner for all the directors in New York, all the feature directors in New York.
Guest:And it was amazing how many there are and how much we all have to say to each other and how there never is any reason.
Guest:I never have a reason to talk to a director.
Marc:And also, yeah, but also I think that I'm just starting to realize this now in doing something that I really love because I mean, this podcast, you know, despite the form is new and what have you, it really, it's good for me.
Marc:It's good for what I like to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It gives me complete freedom and it engages me is that when people are doing things, you're fucking busy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you know, to find even with you today, you know, to find the time you would think like, you know, I'm just gonna have lunch with somebody.
Marc:And then literally it becomes like, I can't fucking have lunch with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, you want to, but it's like you got a million little things to do.
Marc:And a lot of people like I just had this conversation with my producer today about that with Brendan that, you know, people who are successful and people who are getting things done are fucking busy.
Marc:Time management is my number one like thing on my head.
Marc:It's impossible.
Marc:I mean, to compartmentalize and to know when a day.
Marc:Like, I can't figure out when to stop working.
Marc:And, you know, you wouldn't think I'm doing a lot, but it is a lot.
Guest:I've started this thing.
Guest:Tonight will be my second try of turning off on the Sabbath, on Saturdays.
Marc:The Jew thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you just using the Jew thing for an excuse or?
Guest:Kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just saying like, you know.
Guest:Let's honor God's will.
Marc:I'm going to take 24 hours.
Marc:Even if I don't believe in God or how I feel about God.
Guest:I'm not going to worry.
Guest:Get worried about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let's follow the basic rules.
Marc:Maybe there was a human reason.
Guest:I'm going to say there's got to be some.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It doesn't.
Guest:It's common sense to say, hey, let's take a day a week and shift gears and put your email away.
Marc:So you shut the light off and pre-tear your toilet paper and turn your phone off?
Guest:No, I didn't do that.
Guest:But I did turn the, for me, putting the phone away and the iPhone and the laptop was like tearing off my limbs.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:You know, it was like, I couldn't believe how different I felt for 24 hours.
Marc:And it enables you to focus in on your family, on your own thoughts.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Go for a walk without my phone in my hand.
Guest:It's amazing, isn't it?
Guest:It's almost scary.
Guest:Like, I'm going to try, you know.
Guest:And it's sort of pathetic how different it is, but it's worth doing.
Guest:Because, like, you know, I would say to anyone who's listening, you know, maybe you're listening on your headphones, on your iPhone.
Guest:Now, put it down and go for a walk around the block without it in your hand.
Marc:Yeah, but wait until you finish the episode.
Guest:Yeah, it's over.
Marc:Now, I didn't really realize that, you know, I knew your father was involved with Air America briefly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't really realize that you came from, not necessarily a show business family, but your father was in the radio business.
Guest:Yeah, and I would say he was a showman of sorts, certainly, in the radio world.
Guest:And you grew up in Ohio?
Guest:Cleveland, Ohio.
Guest:Have you been there lately?
Guest:Yeah, I go all the time.
Guest:Oh, is he still there?
Guest:My father spends half the year there, and I have three sisters who live there.
Guest:And your father was in AM Top 40 radio?
Guest:He was in everything.
Guest:Yeah, AM, FM.
Guest:He came up all the way.
Guest:He grew up in Brooklyn and then worked in every kind of job and every kind of radio station around the country until eventually being an owner of a radio station.
Marc:As an on-air personality as well?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So you grew up around the mics?
Guest:I did, although by the time I was born, he was done with being on air.
Marc:Oh, he already amassed a radio empire.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, because he's 82 now.
Guest:But he he's.
Guest:And in fact, you know what I've been doing is story core.
Guest:I've been interviewing him in the last year or two and getting his life story just like this.
Guest:And it's incredible.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Things you didn't know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:million things i didn't know because we never had that formal you know i've talked to him all the time i've asked some questions but never really had the formal like okay we're gonna sit down and i'm gonna really ask you about your life and like get the stories and like you know i'm gonna be an interviewer and it's been incredible i recommend it for anyone who has parents to sit and interview their parents interview your parents or whoever anyone in your life that you're that you care about like it's an amazing thing ask how how did you really feel you know when you met my mom how did you what was it like before that you know what
Marc:And now we all have the technology to do it so easily just for your own personal.
Marc:It's interesting that you say we've never talked.
Marc:And then once you put a mic in front of somebody, even if they're your parents, that I did my mother, that there's some shift that they'll make.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:First, they'll be like, well, your father obviously knows about the mic and how to behave on mic.
Marc:But they're sort of like, do I just talk into that?
Marc:And then it's surprising how quickly they're professional broadcasters.
Guest:And also, I think it's so interesting how, like, I listen to your Robin Williams thing, you know, and, like, I listen to my own self-talk.
Guest:I feel like I'm on NPR or something.
Guest:Because, like, depending on the context, you're not really moved to make a lot of jokes or, like, you know, I don't know.
Marc:Well, you're actually, you know, you're forced to sort of, like, you know,
Marc:because you're in front of a mic that my story is valid.
Guest:And for most comedians or most people, like probably both of us, when you get interviewed, it's on like some radio station for two minutes and all they want you to do is like compete with them.
Marc:Jam.
Marc:Who can be louder.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, David Wayne, I appreciate you taking the time and continued success.
Marc:Mazel tov.
Marc:Let's check in again another time.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:I think we've got a nice chunk of time here, and I know you're busy, and I really have to get a haircut.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Very good.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:You know, in relation to my conversation with David Wayne, I look, I'm about the same age as he is.
Marc:I remember the state on television.
Marc:I remember when they were starting out as a comedy group because we're all in the same community.
Marc:And in light of the fact that I seem to be doing some fairly in-depth work here on the podcast, I
Marc:I remembered a story from probably 20 years ago about this state.
Marc:It seemed like a crazy story to me and about how they worked as a comedy group, their work ethic, and some darker elements.
Marc:And, you know, through, you know, because I've been in this business a long time, you know, I'm about one degree of separation from just about anybody.
Marc:But this was a difficult guest to have.
Marc:But I just I sought we're going to use the name Troy, I think.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Troy is not in the business anymore for very specific reasons.
Marc:We're going to talk about it.
Marc:And it was because of his experience with a group of comedy performers that became the state, including David Wayne, Michael Showalter, Michael M. Black, Tom Lennon.
Marc:I know that many fans of the state listen to this.
Marc:So, Troy, now let me understand...
Marc:Well, you're not in show business anymore.
Marc:No, not at all.
Marc:Not at all.
Marc:And you were at NYU in the late 80s, which is where the state started.
Marc:That's where it was organized.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They were the new group.
Marc:Characters, sketches, whatnot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And one of the first things that David Wayne and Michael Showalter sort of inspired in me, actually, was...
Guest:This isn't necessarily just a hobby for everybody.
Guest:This isn't just an experience for everybody.
Guest:There's actually money to be made.
Marc:But this can be a job.
Marc:This could be a profession.
Guest:They were suggesting to myself and others that we may very well be professionals with this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:At that age, of course, you're impressionable and you're excitable.
Guest:And I began... I actually did consider for a year and a half at NYU while I was affiliated with them.
Guest:I was actually kind of thinking, yeah, I'm going to go into comedy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And what happened there?
Guest:Well...
Guest:i guess it was about six months ago i'm listening to npr yeah and uh david wayne and michael showalter were being interviewed yeah and um i'm listening and i'm i'm hearing things about what they're doing presently and uh kind of how they started i can't remember who the host was or who the interviewer was on npr at that time but
Guest:i suddenly began to perspire my my heart started racing yeah i i i felt like i felt dizzy and i had to pull my car over to the side of the road wow and i just started crying i just started uncontrollably sobbing and i had i mean i listen i'm married i have kids i've got a good life i mean like everybody there's been a cut but
Guest:You know, this didn't go away.
Guest:And for a few weeks, I kind of wrestled with it.
Guest:And finally, my wife convinced me to talk to a regression therapist.
Guest:And in a sense, my experience with the state was very symptomatic of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Guest:I mean, what are you talking about?
Guest:We're talking about a comedy group.
Guest:There were some things that were going on that would rival any fraternity hazing, any sort of lacrosse team.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It kind of began with these marathon improv sessions that would begin Friday.
Guest:They'd call it happy hour.
Guest:And it would end Sunday night.
Guest:Three days?
Guest:The improv would start.
Guest:You'd get a first line or a last line, kind of a scenario, typical improv exercise games.
Guest:And David would say he had this whistle, but it wasn't like a referee's whistle.
Guest:It kind of made like a...
Guest:like a dragon's man it made a creepy sound and and and he said when you hear this whistle um you are not to break character until you hear the second whistle and and i mean we're talking saturday we've been up 24 hours it's saturday at three o'clock and i'm still playing like this doctor role i've done every possible operation you can imagine i've treated every type of patient and
Guest:symptom and and just and it would just it was exhausting and and you were sleep deprived and and so what was this just was the agenda you know just to be funny i mean i don't understand i mean did they go on for more than like two days or i mean what they i think david and the two michaels recognized that there was going to be this onslaught of young
Guest:uh excited ambitious performers and they wanted the cream of the crop they wanted the best they wanted the perfect specimen they wanted but it also it seems to me like that you know that you know that sleep deprivation i mean you know didn't it didn't it get weird i mean we i mean mark if you i know this isn't tv but if you see this
Guest:yeah what is that a tragedy comedy mask tragedy comedy mask and this is this it's a scar it's actually it was branded into the inside of everybody's knee are you serious yeah if you if you if you showed any type of sort of skill i guess is the word um they and brand you and and the two michaels had this side room in their loft space where we would do these like extra session work yeah um where you would be stripped naked and
Guest:you would be lathered in sort of a vaseline type thing um you were then forced to roll around in sawdust and it's like at the time you're young and you think yeah this is like animal house stuff this is this is this is totally normal but then to to take photographs of you so let me understand this because you know it's it's sort of you know it's shocking to me in the sense that
Marc:between sleep deprivation, taking young minds.
Marc:I mean, it sounds to me, if I'm not mistaken, that I've done a little reading with cults that when you deprive someone of sleep, that they become very malleable.
Marc:So I don't know where your memory cuts off in these improv sessions, but did people break down?
Marc:Did they become childish or start crying?
Marc:Because it sounds like a cult to me.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:It sounds like a cult to me.
Guest:Yeah, I mean...
Guest:What I do recall and bear with me, because a lot of this stuff I'd kind of just forgotten about and put away.
Marc:It's hard to forget a fucking brand on your knee.
Guest:It is.
Guest:But from some of the work that I've been doing and some of the stuff that's come up there, there were individuals.
Guest:that were humiliated so badly in terms of their inability to really be in the moment, so to speak, or to really kind of, if David saw a funny improv or something that could have been capitalized during the course of an improv, he'd get in people's faces, not even like a drill sergeant, like a dictator.
Guest:I mean, like an Idi Amin or a Hitler.
Guest:It's just like this power that he had to just break people down.
Guest:He enforced all of us at some point
Guest:to hold our character to not break character after the first retreat yeah until two weeks after and you're talking spring break so we went to the three-day retreat right at least 70 percent of us left in character and had to stay in character when we went home to see our families and you can imagine this freaked some families out
Guest:he had at the time there was more than just one woman in the group yeah and he um he wanted i don't know if he instructed them or they chose their characters but it's almost as if he maniacally knew that they were going to choose something that would be impossible to hold in character like crack addicted prostitute this young this freshman girl
Guest:From Staten Island.
Guest:I mean, she she went home for spring break looking the part of crack addicted prostitute.
Guest:She was so deep into the crack addicted horror character that she had sex with her brother.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:There's this one guy, Roger E. He was a junior.
Guest:He was actually ROTC.
Guest:And I remember it because he and I wanted to do a full metal jacket sketch and David totally shot it down.
Guest:But in any case, Roger drew...
Guest:Mentally impaired and interpreted the character as a mentally retarded guy.
Guest:And so he had to go home on spring break as like, you know, a mentally retarded person.
Guest:And the parents thought that he was on drugs.
Guest:They thought that he had suffered some sort of a weird kind of aneurysm or something.
Guest:and this kid never came out of it he never broke character he was so overly intensely desperate to please david and the two michaels that he to this day is being treated he's like classified as moderately retarded and works no he works in a sheltered uh um residence somewhere i think it's i think it's in nebraska or something a group home i'm still in touch with him
Marc:Well, I mean, so what I'm seeing, as I said before, is a cult dynamic.
Marc:So, you know, the people that were able to pull this stuff off that didn't get damaged by these tests is what they seem like to me.
Marc:That came out of character that did what was necessary, survived the sweep deprivation improv, were able to go home and keep the character and come back and go, I did it.
Marc:That they were the ones that we see in the final cast of the state.
Marc:And you were in that cut.
Guest:Why I left and what we were talking about was essentially where I had to draw the line and where I freed myself.
Guest:I escaped and then suppressed it for many years.
Guest:From what?
Guest:What was it?
Guest:Murder.
Guest:What?
Murder.
Guest:It was murder.
Guest:It was assassinations.
Guest:It was executions.
Guest:It was eliminations.
Guest:They were hits.
Guest:There was a list.
Guest:Carrie Kenney was being groomed to woo people like David Cross.
Guest:Dave Chappelle.
Guest:She even had a lesbian thing with Sarah Silverman.
Guest:She was trying to get some stuff going on there and that the state would either bring these people in and have them convert to being sort of like pro state.
Guest:And if people weren't willing to play along, there was talk and may still be today.
Guest:There may be people's lives in danger.
Guest:We were given lists.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So what you're saying is that right now, as we speak, people that watch the state in their early teens, some may be activated to do this killing, that there are comedians' lives at risk now
Guest:and and that they can be like snapped on at any point this is my fear this is this is what i think is going to happen this is the the fact that will ferrell is alive today experiencing the success he's having um is part and parcel of this why did everybody stop watching jim carrey i mean jim carrey did not stop being funny jim carrey didn't stop it's arguable but i understand what you're saying
Guest:well i mean what's also true is that people stopped viewing him um one of their test subjects um dave chapelle also is not really you know he had that thing why did dave freak out right i mean really okay same offices just down the state had offices party lang tried to uh kill himself the state has an agenda and it's not funny haha so there there's a lot more going on than we could ever imagine
Guest:there's a lot more going on there's a lot more that that that will go on uh there's a lot that has gone on currently is going on that's exactly what i'm saying and believe me i i know that coming out in this form and fashion is not going to be met with uh immediate uh acceptance but i mean look around at what's happening okay yeah um the election of president obama based on on on on media hype and and and
Guest:And the youth vote.
Guest:The youth vote.
Guest:I mean, that's always something that David Wayne wanted to put in place.
Guest:An energetic, ultra liberal, you know, say what you will about your politics, but David got his way here.
Guest:Wait, so you're saying that David Wayne put Obama in place?
Guest:quite possibly i mean who voted for him the mtv generation even clinton was kind of like their test subject because okay the whole mona lewinski but they couldn't vote then the whole mona lewinski yeah monica lewinski was an intern at mtv okay and not a lot of people know that okay so there's a connection there right uh muslim extremists what's that got to do with anything look at the guy that tried to blow up times square
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Pakistan has satellite dishes.
Guest:Pakistan has television access.
Guest:Was he working with terrorists or was he watching the state?
Guest:And is this what inspired him to do what he did?
Marc:So you're saying that the state has that David Wayne and the state has already programmed a generation to.
Guest:David Wayne and the two Michaels, in fact, every person affiliated with the state after 1991, have systematically pre-programmed a generation to do its bidding.
Guest:The state is not only...
Guest:A force to be reckoned with, but they are a pulse of danger that is coming through your computer screen, your iPod.
Guest:For those that still have televisions, television screens, there's more to come.
Guest:There's more to the story.
Guest:And quite frankly, I hope I live to see it because I think by coming out this way, I've put myself in jeopardy.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Well, do you ever think you might, you know, this might be a personal thing with you?
Marc:I mean, in the sense that you really think that what you're saying is true or that maybe you're just mad at them?
Guest:It's a good question.
Guest:Thanks for being here.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:Hope you enjoyed that conversation with David Wayne.
Marc:I hope it was enlightening to hear some, you know, sort of the little inside baseball from Troy may be a little startling to some of you fans of the state.
Marc:Uh, but I, you know, I try to do the big work here and certainly if you have time, go to WTF pod.com, get on that mailing list.
Marc:Cause I'm sending out a lot of links, a lot of information, pictures, things.
Marc:I'm writing stuff every week and I'm sending it out to you guys and, uh, you know, enjoy our sponsors.
Marc:Please go to punchwinemagazine.com for all your up-to-date comedy news.
Marc:Take a look at standuprecords.com.
Marc:Do that thing.
Marc:Get some coffee at justcoffee.coop.
Guest:And send some money.
Guest:We are listener-supported.
Marc:And I don't want to be a pest.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:See, the dick filter just kicked in.
Marc:I felt like I was about to be a dick.
Marc:And it stopped me.
Marc:You got to get one of these.
you