Episode 695 - Sam Rockwell / Richard Linklater
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf thank you for listening to it on the show today sam rockwell and i talk a bit about his new film mr right with the amazing anna kendrick
Marc:It was a fast-moving conversation that won a lot of directions.
Marc:But it was great to meet him and great to talk to him.
Marc:And it was fun.
Marc:But before that, coming up very shortly, Richard Linklater stopped by to talk about his new movie.
Marc:He came by, man.
Marc:He came by the house, he was in town, you know, doing a little press for his new film, Everybody Wants Some, which I saw.
Marc:That Link Ladder's a solid dude.
Marc:He's a class act, and this movie is a fun fucking movie.
Marc:And you know what else?
Marc:I don't know if you remember the last conversation I had with Richard, but we talked a bit about Thin Lizzy, and he fucking showed up at my house with Thin Lizzy jailbreak on vinyl as a gift.
Marc:That is a fucking amazing dude.
Marc:But look forward to that.
Marc:We did a nice little interview with Mr. Linklater about the new movie.
Marc:So what's happening?
Marc:What is the urgency?
Marc:Okay, some outstanding business.
Marc:I reached out to you guys to help me name a piece of furniture, and there was a lot of input, mostly credenza.
Marc:I appreciate the input, but I don't know that that would necessarily have slipped my mind.
Marc:What she used to call it, and I believe what it is in some parts of the world,
Marc:And this is where I learned that some furnitures are called different things.
Marc:It was a buffet.
Marc:Now I know that doesn't start with the letter C, but I'm getting older, brain's getting mushy.
Marc:But it was a buffet.
Marc:That was what I threw out gladly and exercised myself of a draining ghost vessel that was doing nothing but subconsciously taxing my emotions.
Marc:And man, did that start a roll, man.
Marc:I have been, I've been throwing shit out like crazy.
Marc:My house actually is comfortable and I like sitting in it.
Marc:It's not this clutter fest out here in the garage.
Marc:Well, that's a, that's another situation.
Marc:I'd like to read this email before I talk to Richard because it's sort of, it's sort of resonant from Ethan.
Marc:Subject line, sobriety and selvage denim.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Sobriety is something I've struggled with for about six years.
Marc:Ever since I discovered drinking, it's been an everyday part of my life, but that's not the point of this message.
Marc:Thankfully, your podcast and more importantly, your television show has taught me ways to deal with not drinking as much.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:I especially enjoy your frustration with raw and salvaged denim on the IFC show.
Marc:Sitting in a bathtub with stiff jeans is agonizing.
Marc:As someone who is constantly searching for new obsessions, I especially love how obsessed with denim and coffee you are.
Marc:These two have been my vices for a few years, and I can understand how they help with the monotony of addiction.
Marc:I was wondering if you had any other hobbies you'd recommend along with these two.
Marc:Vinyl seems to be too pricey.
Marc:And might I add my friend, Ethan, space-consuming.
Marc:And I'm already restoring straight razors and old kitchen knives.
Marc:Oh my God, this guy wins a prize for the, you know, what a beautiful, weird little obsession.
Marc:restoring straight razors and old kitchen knives uh back to the letter i hope to hear back from someone in your camp hopefully your boots are broken in and your denim isn't too stiff thanks mark regards ethan dude i being that ethan and anyone else who finds themselves staving off uh the uh the the the the knowledge of their own mortality and
Marc:through a weird obsessive compulsive activities or obsessions that hopefully you find one that you know produce good results and you can be proud of and maybe show your friends look look I look at this straight razor I restored yeah while I was doing this I I didn't think that life was pointless look I look I'm all for obsessions in that way I don't really look at them like that but dude here's why your letter is interesting to me is that
Marc:I'm realizing as I clean shit out of my house that what's really sad is waning obsessions.
Marc:Is that when the obsession starts to dissipate and you're just left with the byproduct of your commitment to this thing.
Marc:Like the straight razor bit and the knife bit really reminds me of my foray into cast iron pans, which was completely obsessive.
Marc:And I get this.
Marc:This is I get this when I'm not working a day job like doing a TV show or when I'm I'm on my regular schedule, which is what I'm in now.
Marc:And my obsession right now is really about throwing shit out.
Marc:But I've gone through some of this stuff that I've thrown out and some of them were kind of remnants.
Marc:of obsessions, like there was this little wooden box, I actually kept it, that all I wanted to do was learn how to wax it, like put a finish on it and wax it, but I never committed to really learning about stains or waxing or the benefits of waxing versus varnish or shellacking or whatever the other stuff is.
Marc:I just spent probably a month just slowly waxing this dumb little wooden box, and it completely consumed me.
Marc:Vinyl, I'm terrified of the day that that obsession starts to wane because it's all over my house.
Marc:It's taken over my house.
Marc:And this tells me something about relationships too and about the obsessive nature of relationships is that I'm not in an obsessive relationship anymore and I haven't been in one in a little while.
Marc:And it's like there's a heartbreak to it, dude.
Marc:There's a dull heartbreak.
Marc:to the waning of obsessions.
Marc:You know, you just feel it going away.
Marc:And if it's not a person that you can actually separate from and revisit in your memory, if it's an actual object, you know, be careful because you might end up having to sort of get rid of a lot of straight razors and kitchen knives when you have that moment where you're surrounded by them and you're like, the fuck am I doing?
Marc:Just you alone on a floor with 50 kitchen knives and 50 straight razors that nobody wants.
Marc:As I said before, this Richard Winklater film is fucking a blast.
Marc:And if you're my age, it was funny.
Marc:I told him, and you'll hear me tell him, that after I was at the screening of Everybody Wants Some, there was about half the room applauded, and I'm like, they're over 50.
Marc:And it's not an old person movie because it's about youth.
Marc:It's about identity.
Marc:It's about that first wave of freedom of trying to figure out who you are and whatnot.
Marc:But the music is great.
Marc:The look is great.
Marc:And the dudes are, it's mostly about dudes in a way, are all sort of endearing and interesting.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:This guy makes movies with a lot of heart.
Marc:So this is me talking to Richard about Everybody Wants Some, which is open now in theaters.
Marc:Well, that's what I noticed about the movie.
Marc:What'd you end up calling it?
Marc:Everybody Wants Some?
Guest:Yeah, I had a working title called That's What I'm Talking About.
Marc:Right, we talked about it a little bit because you had just finished shooting it.
Guest:I was excited.
Marc:When you were here last time.
Marc:And now it's Everybody Wants Some.
Guest:Everybody Wants Some.
Guest:I went with the Van Halen, two exclamation points.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Two exclamation points.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's what it's from.
Marc:I'm an idiot.
Marc:Like, I'm like, where do you get the time?
Guest:Everybody wants some.
Marc:Their third album came out in the spring of 80.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that, I can't believe that.
Marc:So Van Halen 1 or 2 were 1970s, late 70s?
Guest:78, 9, 80.
Guest:They went 1, 2, 3.
Guest:Those first three are, to me, those are my favorites, too.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Those are the best.
Marc:I mean, I think I saw them on the first tour.
Guest:I saw them opening for Black Sabbath in 78.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:really yeah they were opening before their first album even came out it's like but everyone came out talking about them i've talked to other people who were on that tour they see that who saw that tour yeah um i uh i thought the music was great because i was 1980 is when this takes place this kid's freshman year of college it was my beginning my senior year so of high school yeah
Marc:But again, not unlike Dazed and Confused, it's all familiar to me because we're about the same age.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're from Austin.
Marc:I'm from Albuquerque.
Marc:It all felt familiar to me.
Marc:All the cars, you got all the cars right.
Marc:I was excited to see a gremlin in the parking lot.
Guest:Yeah, a little gremlin, a little pacer stepping around back there somewhere.
Marc:But it was interesting because I saw it with an entire room full of what I imagine are press.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But I felt like everybody was rooting for the movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which is good.
Guest:You get a vibe.
Guest:Yeah, you do.
Guest:Sometimes they're with you.
Guest:Sometimes they're against you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But have you ever felt them against you, though, really?
Guest:I think early on they were trying to figure out.
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Not much.
Guest:Not much.
Guest:In a long time ago.
Guest:In a long time ago.
Marc:But I knew because I talked to you that it was similar to Dazed and Confused and Structure, which means that it wasn't a story necessarily as it was sort of a kind of movement.
Marc:A meditation on being a high school freshman.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:in uh in in texas in 1980 but it's weird with college movies and i don't maybe it was nostalgic on your part but nothing got out of hand it was right on the verge of it right i feel you know there's a little fight in a disco and they get kicked out but it's not like but that was just don't get thrown that's like a bar fight it's like pushes each other yeah yeah yeah it's like yeah that's like every bar fight you've ever been around usually
Guest:You know, I thought that was the difference between college and high school.
Guest:Like high school, you're sort of like being in prison.
Guest:You know, no one really wants to be there and you're stuck in your parents' house.
Guest:You're stuck in that world and it's not by choice.
Guest:You know, you're there.
Guest:So there's a lot of tension, a lot of aggravation, all that oppression.
Guest:And so people are kind of bumping up against each other and expressing that kind of aggression or that behavior.
Guest:It comes out in different ways.
Guest:College, because it's just not about freedom.
Guest:College to me was the metaphor there was, oh, it's freedom.
Guest:Like, wow, you can stay out all night.
Guest:Your parents aren't telling you to turn down your stereo or get up.
Guest:If you want to just drink and eat whatever you want and not go to class or whatever those adult decisions, suddenly the exhilaration of having all that freedom thrust on you was fun.
Guest:So it created a more...
Marc:friction-free environment you know because it's like well you're there by choice you don't like college you don't like being here quit go get a job right and there's and you were real good about like all the characters sort of define themselves pretty quickly and these are alpha dudes yeah it's a baseball team you know this was sort of i you know i certainly didn't i you were a ball player yeah they're all competitive that's the tone they're just competitive with everything about the dumbest shit
Guest:And also they're always amped up and moving.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of movement.
Guest:They never really sit down much.
Guest:Right, and they're just like doing shit.
Guest:Or if they sit down, it's for bong hits or to drink.
Marc:Right, or play that Knuckles game or just somehow beat the shit out of each other one way or the other.
Marc:But those were the guys when I was younger who I would have thought of as the other team.
Marc:Not the enemy, but just the jocks.
Marc:And somehow or another, because of certain pivotal personalities in the film, you were able to sort of balance them out somehow.
Marc:that you found the humanity of people I would have prejudged probably.
Guest:Well, yeah, and I think the film kind of begs you to do that at the very beginning.
Guest:You're seeing it through Jake's eyes.
Guest:He's the freshman, the new guy.
Guest:And so they are kind of jerks.
Guest:They sort of, you know, like, who are you?
Guest:They basically give him nothing.
Guest:Even though they're living in the same house.
Guest:But within minutes, they're inviting him.
Guest:Hey, we're going drinking.
Guest:There's a happy hour at this bar.
Marc:Right, the team element, actually, and also the seriousness of having...
Marc:a good team and what it means kind of overrode that the third personality difficulties.
Guest:It is finding your place within a team structure.
Guest:And that that's to me also what the movie is really about.
Guest:It's like every guy there was kind of the star of their high school team.
Guest:Right now they're coming in like, Oh, I got to find, you know, you go from being an alpha to being, you don't know what, right.
Guest:Oh, I got to fit in here and be a teammate, but to have a good team, um,
Guest:You know, you have to play your role and everybody knows that, but you want to assert yourself.
Guest:So baseball, it kind of team and individual are kind of battling each other.
Guest:But people say, oh, it's a big party film.
Guest:It's like, yeah, but within that party, you see the little competitiveness, the way they talk.
Guest:They're actually preparing themselves to be a good team to win.
Guest:They want to win a national championship this year.
Marc:And also, it was very philosophical because I didn't feel like it was a party movie.
Marc:The sort of thrust of the... It wasn't a story, but of the movie is Pussy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chase and tail.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that makes sense.
Marc:I mean, those guys are... Well, they're 18 to 22-year-old movies.
Marc:Sure, but I was surprised also that once you establish the characters, you had the hyper alpha who was really good at everything.
Marc:He could split baseballs with a hatchet and whatnot, with an axe.
Marc:And then you had the other guy who was really a good looking guy and cocky, but philosophical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Smart, quick.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Quick and smart.
Marc:And then you had the weird wiry guy with the handlebar mustache who was just kind of freaky, but interesting.
Marc:Picture, yeah.
Marc:A picture, yeah.
Marc:They're all a little crazy.
Marc:It was odd because all these type of movies are going to fall under, you know, there's a moment there where you're like, is this Animal House or is it a genre picture?
Marc:But it didn't do that.
Marc:And I don't know how you pulled that off, really, because the film got applause last night from a press audience, dude.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Marc:It got applause.
Guest:I take that as a positive sign.
Marc:And when I heard the applause, I'm like, they're all over 50.
Guest:Yeah, they were there.
Guest:They were there.
Guest:But, you know, I just think it's kind of what we were talking about earlier.
Guest:Like, why is there not?
Guest:I think college, it was just chill.
Guest:Like high school, everybody had something to prove.
Guest:Remember college, people, it was.
Guest:And especially the time, it's the end of the 70s.
Guest:Everything was chill.
Guest:You were just trying to be cooler than everybody.
Guest:And being cool means not losing your shit, not starting stupid fights and not being aggressive.
Guest:It's like, hey, you know, you went out with my girlfriend.
Guest:Hey, it's cool.
Guest:I guess that's true.
Guest:There was a little bit of that in the air.
Guest:It was really...
Guest:I mean, guys, you know, everybody's always... We don't change that much, but it was kind of uncool to be an aggressive jerk, as I remember.
Guest:Well, I mean, I think that's right, because I didn't... I even have issues, like the black guy at the country bar.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He doesn't have any problem going in there, because, A, he's a known athlete on campus.
Guest:No one's going to mess with him.
Guest:He's got his boys with him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's just not an issue.
Guest:People go, oh, there's one black guy on the team.
Guest:Nothing happened.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:No, we had a couple brothers on the team.
Guest:We were teammates first.
Marc:There weren't these issues.
Marc:I didn't think about it until you mention it now that high school is really where the violence happens in a way.
Marc:If you made it to college, you did have...
Marc:Even if you were set in your ways like some of these guys were, you knew that you may be on the baseball team, but there was a whole world of people at this place that were different than you.
Marc:And there was no way to not acknowledge that.
Marc:Whereas in high school, if you were the baseball team, you were the top of the pyramid.
Guest:And you could fuck with people.
Guest:You're set up to be the bully, the one who never gets picked on or challenged.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But in college, just by the assortment of majors and you just know you can't think you're the whole world.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, you meet so many people who are studying other things and you realize you can't help but know there's a big other world that doesn't care that.
Guest:I mean, sure, there's this kind of psychopathic emphasis on sports.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In our country.
Guest:But so it might be about football or basketball or a little baseball's third in that list.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At best.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:your world definitely opens up.
Guest:And that's the whole point of going to college, right?
Guest:You meet a lot of people and it absorbs their taste, what they're interested in, all those crazy teachers.
Guest:So it's a good time.
Guest:And you've got that, the singing in the car montage.
Guest:An extended...
Guest:Rapper's Delight sequence.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:There was a question of how long that should be in the movie.
Guest:It's early in the movie.
Guest:They're going from their house to the bar where they're having a happy hour.
Guest:So it's just A to Z. Yeah.
Guest:Point A to point B. You did almost all song, I think.
Guest:Well, no, because that song's like 13 minutes.
Yeah.
Guest:I told the cast, you got to know the whole song because we're going to do this.
Guest:Because that really happened to me.
Guest:I remember I was in a car and a guy who played ball with named Julio was in the front seat.
Guest:And he goes, I am Julio.
Guest:You'd put in your own name, that notion of passing the mic.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:If you knew the song.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it was like you'd insert your own name or your own kind of.
Marc:And that was new stuff to people too, like rap music.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:The movie's trying to take you back to a time and say, well, this was what it felt like.
Guest:You can say whatever you will about that song or how it's aged and people kind of make fun of it or it's been parodied a little bit.
Guest:That and, say, My Sharon and stuff.
Guest:But I was like, no, no, this is original intent, original use, like what it felt like to be in that car
Guest:Before it was even called hip hop, it's like, oh, that's rap music.
Guest:It's something kind of from New York City, you know, from the Bronx or Brooklyn or wherever it's coming from.
Guest:But you're kind of like, oh, and it has those beats.
Guest:It's almost like disco.
Guest:It starts off and it's like, OK, you can kind of dance to it.
Guest:But then it's like, OK, well, what's new here?
Guest:It's like, oh, the ear, what they're saying.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:I mean, that's fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was kind of like the excitement of being around something so new, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And also the punk and the new wave music.
Guest:So I look back at it as a time.
Guest:It's like, well, you know, that was a pretty interesting time.
Guest:You know, there was like new stuff happening.
Guest:I don't know if that's happening today.
Guest:The genres get refined, but I don't know if there's new...
Marc:things coming you know well there is but there's a lot more they're not as uh there there's more of it yeah like you know when when like that stuff came out you know you it was like any media it was a little more intimate there was less stuff so now there's just tons of shit it's like techno there's so much stuff and so much stuff within that stuff but what's interesting at that moment in 1980 is all that stuff was selling really well the country i mean the music industry is very different you know just some
Guest:Records.
Guest:Average band was selling 3 million albums.
Guest:You look at the industry, very different.
Marc:Well, I love that guy's, Jake's box of records, because I'm looking at the details.
Marc:And I see the record crate, and I see more songs about buildings and food, and I see Devo.
Guest:I started off, I had like 200 and something songs.
Guest:And a lot of it's a combination of financial or just what worked.
Guest:I was just, there was a lot of reasons that I end up here, but it's kind of random.
Guest:The cars?
Guest:There could have been, yeah, end with a car song.
Marc:Yeah, I remember when that came out, what was that?
Marc:That was 80, 79?
Guest:79, 80, yeah.
Marc:That was a big record, that first Cards record.
Marc:You were like, what the fuck is happening?
Marc:And the Knack, too.
Marc:You open with the Knack, you close with the Cards.
Marc:Because there were some people that were mad about the Knack, because it's like New Wave, it's not really punk.
Guest:Yeah, they weren't really, or they were too successful too.
Guest:Their album, I think they made a mistake because it looked like Meet the Beatles.
Guest:They mirrored the exact poses.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And people were a little cynical about them or something.
Guest:It's a hell of a song though.
Guest:But yeah, and that album, actually, I think the Knack is really underrated because, I mean, I think they're the best teen sex angst band ever.
Guest:They were very in tune with this movie because what's on a young person's mind, you know.
Guest:A lot of sex right out of the gate.
Marc:I was not getting that much sex in college.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:Yeah, about four or five of the dudes got laid that first day of school.
Marc:It would happen.
Guest:What can I say?
Guest:What can I say?
Guest:This is the dirty secret.
Guest:You know, and there was a kind of young woman who just liked the way we looked in our baseball uniforms.
Guest:What can I say?
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:That's it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was a big deal.
Guest:When they talk about men objectifying women, any athlete can kind of flip that and go, you're not even looking at my face.
Guest:You're looking at my, you know, whatever that athletic.
Guest:So it was like, you just kind of go with it.
Guest:And the one dude in the mirror with his butt.
Guest:That was funny.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of primping.
Guest:Because that was the early, like, metrosexual.
Guest:I think it's something like women's lib and, you know, the hair dryer enters the men's locker room at some point.
Guest:Perms.
Guest:In the 70s.
Guest:Perms.
Guest:Platform shoes.
Guest:Yeah, it was okay to kind of primp, you know, guys.
Guest:Oh, dude, it was crazy.
Guest:They started caring about what they looked like.
Marc:oh my buddy dave bishop he had a perm he had straight blonde hair and he'd get a perm and one day he'd show up with his perm and he didn't really say nothing about it famillary shoes like these three inch platform shoes what the hell but it was okay to put an effort out for the first time it was really britannia jeans and all that shit tight yeah my cast was going like well you guys really wore these right like yeah it's just that's all there was it was some tight stuff
Marc:I don't know if I ever felt comfortable in the tight pants, but it was the way it was.
Guest:It was just the way.
Guest:I didn't mind tight stuff on all the ladies.
Marc:No, of course not.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Marc:But I like the movement towards this art party, which becomes this sort of, like, fantastic sort of event.
Marc:Because, like, the way you shot it, it wasn't just a party.
Marc:You know, it was...
Marc:It was a kind of weird, mind-blowing sort of... Mind expanding.
Marc:Right.
Marc:As an audience member, you kind of felt like, oh, this is really kind of out there and probably a little too well-produced in a way for the effect of it.
Marc:But that's how it was.
Guest:It's how it felt, right?
Guest:It was this place.
Guest:It was all performing arts majors, mostly actors, dancers, you know.
Guest:the really super cool kids.
Guest:And I had met this actress and we were going out and it was like a whole new world opened up.
Guest:Our idea of decorating the house was like thumbtacking up a Susan Anton poster.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you go out to their and their parties and they had like special lighting and a guy controlling it from the attic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And special, you know, it was just really well production designed.
Guest:And it was a costume party.
Guest:Cool.
Guest:Yeah, their costumes, all these people who were kind of expressing themselves
Guest:through their costumes and their art and everything.
Guest:And that's new.
Guest:When you're an athlete, you don't have to do any of that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You don't have to peacock or do anything because that's your expression.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a performing art, but the sport is the thing.
Guest:So, yeah, you get around people like, oh, they're kind of artists of living.
Guest:Everything they do is art-like, the way they decorate and the way they dress.
Guest:And then they're performing theater, dance, you know.
Marc:And I love the way you –
Guest:Cool, cool people.
Guest:These are my new friends.
Guest:I found them.
Guest:I found that crowd.
Marc:Well, Jake was the conduit to that because there's that moment where the other guys are clear that he doesn't want them to come and then eventually they do this thing.
Guest:Felt a little awkward.
Guest:Right.
Guest:His world's clashing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And he didn't know what he was getting into either.
Marc:No.
Marc:But all the guys come and then you subvert the expectations again because I left going like, not one of those guys started shit.
Marc:Not one of those guys bullied one of those art dudes.
Marc:And they didn't.
Marc:And not only did they not, they were sort of...
Guest:you know humbled by it yeah they're just smart enough i think you know all the bullying stuff i think that's i think that falls on football a little bit i'm just starting to realize that i talk football you know baseball guys a little different a little different you know you just don't hear about the bad entitled sports stuff so much from baseball right a lot of those guys are actually really you know 4-0 students and yeah
Guest:You know, it's a huge generalization, I guess.
Guest:There's this end to baseball, too.
Guest:Yeah, it's more of a thinking person.
Guest:It's not that, you know, any sport can be.
Guest:But it lends itself, the pace of it, the way guys... It's an ongoing conversation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Even in the game, you can be in the middle of a baseball game and talking to a guy sitting next to you.
Guest:You can't do that in football and basketball.
Guest:You can talk to people on the field.
Guest:It's too intense.
Guest:Like, if through an inning...
Guest:Yeah, you get on first base, you might talk to the guy on the other team.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:There's a lot of time.
Guest:It relaxes you.
Guest:It actually makes you better.
Guest:Where in football, no.
Guest:They talk about your mama.
Guest:They want to kill you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You don't have any room.
Guest:And on the bench, you've got to be kind of jacked up or someone will kill you.
Guest:You could die today.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Baseball, you don't go into a game like that.
Guest:It's much more leisure.
Guest:There's only a couple coaches, and they're often far away.
Guest:So you can have this kind of – Sure.
Guest:It lends itself to wit and humor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just some of the funniest guys I was ever around in my whole life were some of these players.
Guest:And they didn't have any comic aspirations that thought that they could make a living writing, you know, never crossed their mind.
Guest:They were just really funny guys.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Situationally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I thought you took a lot of time, and I was very excited to see that you played some baseball.
Guest:Yeah, we finally deliver one little scene on the baseball field.
Guest:But it's nice.
Guest:You really get a sense of it.
Guest:It's a little bit of a payoff.
Guest:It is.
Guest:You get to kind of realize, oh, that's who they are.
Guest:You understand the pecking order a little bit.
Marc:And this movie for you, did you find it was about that...
Marc:That realization that there's a bigger world out there and about who you are.
Marc:Because some of these guys are pretty set.
Marc:They're on a pro track if possible, but they knew that that was a long shot and whatever on some level.
Marc:But your main character, Jake, is in the end, towards the end where he's talking to her about his essay about Sisyphus and whatnot, you realize he's got some other interests.
Marc:He's kind of open-minded.
Guest:That this is about identity, about sense of self.
Guest:Yeah, he's asking those kind of questions.
Guest:So you see him at the early stages of kind of questioning who he is.
Guest:And it's that responsibility of like, well, who do you want to be?
Guest:Where's your spirit taking you?
Guest:I mean, it says a lot that he wants to hang out with the cool girl who's not the...
Guest:The groupie who likes him in there, he's kind of like, oh, he's drawn to her for some reason.
Guest:She's got something else going on.
Guest:Yeah, he bonds with Finn, the smartest guy on the team.
Guest:They have a shorthand of wit.
Guest:They get each other's extra little bit.
Guest:Because that's how it is sometimes in those group environments.
Guest:There's two or three guys on the team who you make a joke, some reference that two guys pick up on.
Guest:But that's the best kind of humor.
Guest:Because you look and no one else even got that joke.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:There's a little hazing that goes on.
Marc:That was kind of funny.
Marc:I love the way the country dude just was like, I don't need that magic shit.
Marc:You're not going to even play along with getting set up.
Guest:How about that?
Marc:Very simple.
Marc:Simple.
Marc:What did you feel when you actually finished cutting this and you watched it with an audience?
Marc:Because not unlike Dazed and Confused, for me, it felt very personal.
Marc:Just because I grew up then and because it all seemed very familiar to me.
Marc:Did you feel that way when you watch it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just feels...
Guest:It's so fun to hang out with the guys.
Guest:I mean, I have the personal relation of making the movie with this wonderful young cast, so I can experience it on that level.
Guest:But then also part of my brain, and I think my impulse to make the movie, is I'm getting to really deal with those college years, what that meant.
Guest:Just that little sliver of time all these years later.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:It's an interesting transitional point in your life, developmentally.
Guest:So I could kind of...
Guest:Worked through that.
Guest:And I realized I had a lot less mixed feelings about college than I did high school for reasons we've already discussed.
Guest:You know, it's like, oh, that was it.
Guest:It's the first point in my adult life.
Guest:I think I point in my life.
Guest:I go, OK, that was a pretty good time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I go, I buy it.
Guest:I'm buying in.
Guest:That was a good time.
Guest:And comparatively, you know, I've got a daughter who just got out of college.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:College was so cheap.
Guest:You know, it was a good, you know, it was cheap.
Guest:The stakes were low.
Guest:You didn't mortgage your future just to get a secondary education, you know.
Marc:Were you there on a scholarship?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, school was so cheap.
Guest:And we had a scholarship anyway.
Guest:So school was really cheap.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You could take your, I had financial aid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, didn't have much money in the family.
Guest:So it's like I had a scholarship and free money on top of it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I got a Pell Grant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was like nice.
Yeah.
Guest:I felt like I was living large, man.
Guest:I could buy the music, you know, go to the concert, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was nice.
Guest:So I think it was kind of in that point in time was to kind of pre-Reagan era, you know, pre-AIDS, pre-Reagan era, pre-Just Say No.
Guest:It got tougher to be a young person.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think...
Guest:on a couple of you know both like legally you know they they kind of upping drinking ages right making you right made it illegal for young people to be in a car to get you know right oh you can only have one teenager and you know curfews and sure just they kind of went after youthful fun in the 80s kind of backlash yeah and then also you had the the parenting change too so young people you've got we were left alone as kids but now you had parents here and the government kind of taking away your rights so i don't know it was right before all that
Guest:Yeah, this is kind of, I can go, oh, the culture's transitioning.
Guest:Pretty soon you're going to have Ronnie and Nancy saying, just say no.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Abstinence only education is the only way to go.
Marc:And there was no internet.
Guest:Shame, guilt.
Guest:Yeah, it was very social.
Guest:Today, the guys riding around singing to a song, they might have music going, but there's one guy driving and four guys looking at their music.
Guest:Smartphone texting somebody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And in this, they're just looking out the window and looking at each other.
Guest:You're filling that time with something.
Marc:It all made sense to me.
Marc:And now as I talk to you, I realize how much baggage in terms of fear and judgment and looking through current times that you bring to this thing and wonder about it.
Marc:And then you realize, as I'm talking to you, that...
Marc:the point you made before about the changing of the culture was it was it was actually genuinely a more innocent time and you don't necessarily think of you know post 70s america being innocent but in terms of how shit was going to be guided and come down and comparatively even though we had hostages yeah in our in iran at the time there wasn't a war on the horizon the vietnam hangover
Guest:dudes were like still around no one was getting drafted i mean we were in the country wasn't going to be invading anywhere any anytime soon right that sort of started shifting in the 80s so it was a nice little lull right i mean people weren't really happy with carter and the economy and there was a lot of strife but when you're a kid you know right you don't care what the inflation rate is when you're 18 years old right does it affect your life yeah no
Marc:And yeah, and the and a lot of stuff was just sort of starting about, you know, around, you know, the dialogue on college campuses and, you know, about, you know, gender and other things like that, that it hadn't really picked up speed.
Marc:And there was a sort of like, you know, things were okay.
Marc:These guys were having a good time.
Guest:Yeah, well, they thought weed would be legal any second.
Guest:You know, remember it was going to be just, that was coming so that everything went the other direction.
Guest:I mean, a lot of progress, obviously.
Guest:It's something like, you know, gay civil rights.
Guest:You know, that's a huge advance from this time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And other areas, too, progress.
Guest:But then there's that cultural backlash, too.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, I think Reagan brought more overt racism kind of back to the foreword.
Guest:That was kind of a notion.
Guest:You thought, oh, that was going to be
Guest:thing in the past.
Guest:Our generation is just too cool.
Guest:We don't think that way.
Guest:That's for old fogies.
Guest:But the old fogies kind of took back over.
Marc:Yeah, they do that sometimes.
Guest:They did.
Marc:You also come to the film with a lot of those kind of like with those movie expectations, like I said earlier, of that type of film, of a college movie, of a party movie.
Marc:And it really isn't that because it goes much deeper.
Marc:So there's a lot of these weird expectations that get turned in on themselves because you don't go for the joke.
Marc:You go for the humanity of it, which is a lot better.
Guest:Well, I think I'm happy when people kind of pick up on that because, I mean, we've seen this genre done to death.
Guest:There's the humor and the certain kind of humor.
Guest:But I think if you can mix that with something that feels real to someone's own life, maybe that could potentially resonate.
Guest:But I don't know what the expectations are.
Marc:It's in your mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like when you're sitting down for a movie like that and you're like, college students, two empty houses.
Marc:Okay, here we go.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Well, Animal House was looming, you know, even as we lived in those houses, we were very aware, like, this is our animal house.
Guest:It happened.
Guest:We'd all seen the movie numerous times, and now we had our own houses.
Guest:So it couldn't help.
Guest:We had these crazy parties, probably.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:We never had a toga party, but it was kind of like that.
Guest:It was out already, wasn't it?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It had come out a couple years, you know, a little before.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So the influence was pretty immediate in the culture.
Guest:So we were, I just say the DNA of...
Guest:of Animal House is here because it was a big thing.
Guest:Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.
Guest:Even if you think about the sophisticated humor that Finn's doing, trying to be, he's a little like Tim Matheson.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:There was that pitch.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It was a little bit, you know, maybe there's that.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Plumber's probably, you know.
Marc:right bluto you know yeah yeah so i don't know no no it can't help but so these archetypes are floating around they were really there because they'd seen the film and also i liked all the attention paid to you know to bongs uh and to and to kegs yeah and to making every clear punch or whatever punch that was called different things trash can punch we called it coon dog punch one guy on the team but
Marc:but uh but like you know that was definitely a part of like you know how you know how are you going to drink beer faster you know like all that stuff was uh these are important things at that all right yeah i guess you gotta uh you gotta run but it's always great talking to you and i yeah i really enjoyed the movie it was it was heartwarming it was fun and uh it was nostalgic for me but also uh you know kind of revelatory and you did great great job wonderful it's great talking to you always thanks for thanks for having me back
Marc:So that was fun.
Marc:That was a good conversation.
Marc:I like talking to that guy.
Marc:You pick up speed and he's very thoughtful and he's nice.
Marc:He's like a fucking auteur.
Marc:He's the real deal.
Marc:And he brought me a Thin Lizzy record.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Sam Rockwell has had an amazing career.
Marc:He's been in a lot of things.
Marc:Some great things.
Marc:He's one of those guys you see and you just love seeing him.
Marc:That's really the truth of the matter.
Marc:Like Matchstick Man was great.
Marc:The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was great.
Marc:The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford.
Marc:He was great in that.
Marc:Choke.
Marc:He was fun in Choke.
Marc:Moon.
Marc:That movie that David Bowie's son did is an astoundingly great movie.
Marc:He's just one of those guys.
Marc:He was in Laggies with Lynn Shelton, my friend, directed that.
Marc:Anyway, Sam Rockwell, he's one of the most recognizable and interesting character actors working today.
Marc:And I was happy that he came over.
Marc:And this is me talking to him.
Guest:We got a hard out.
Guest:First of all, thanks for watching the movie, by the way.
Guest:It's very nice of you.
Marc:You never know what those things, and I didn't know what that one for a little while.
Marc:It's a romantic comedy.
Guest:Yeah, it aims to be, you know, gross point blank or something.
Marc:But it's funny because I haven't watched those kind of thing.
Marc:It's like a romantic comedy set against ultra-violent slapstick.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You're like, well, this is cute.
Marc:And they're like, holy shit.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, my aim was always gross point blank.
Guest:That was my goal.
Marc:Right, the sort of dark, satirical, funny, you know.
Guest:That's a very special movie.
Marc:Right, with Kuzak, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The driver, you know, that's a great movie.
Marc:you know, your dynamic with Anna Kendrick was great, you know, and that's really what drives those kind of movies.
Marc:Nice, yeah.
Marc:Where, you know, it's cute, it's funny, you know, you both seem to have some genuine moments amidst all the chaos and the crazy plot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was nice to see Tim Roth being weird.
Guest:Yeah, he's great.
Guest:Tim's great, man.
Guest:He's awesome.
Guest:And Anna's great.
Guest:She's really, really... When you get a script like that... Really funny, really clever.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's the decision process?
Marc:Because you seem to be a guy that kind of chooses your shit.
Guest:I try to choose well.
Guest:Sometimes it works out, you know, sometimes it doesn't.
Guest:You know, it was a chance to be like an action dude, you know, which I don't get to do, you know.
Guest:And I'd done some fight scenes in films, but this was a chance to do that stuff.
Guest:For real.
Guest:And yeah, it was fun for me, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't have the budget.
Guest:We had to choreograph a lot of these fights in a very short amount of time.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You'd normally have months for this kind of thing if you were doing a Mission Impossible.
Guest:But those fights are really fun if you're like... I'm sort of a wannabe dancer, and so that's kind of what those fights are like.
Marc:You do like to dance, huh?
Guest:Yeah, so I think that's what it's like to do those kind of fight scenes.
Guest:It's like dance choreography.
Marc:Didn't you do a musical?
Marc:You've done a musical.
Guest:I've never done a musical.
Marc:Oh, you didn't?
Guest:I mean, I'm not a singer like Anna is.
Guest:Do you sing?
Marc:I sing, but privately.
Marc:You know, I'm not gonna... Yeah, me too.
Marc:I do a lot of private singing.
Marc:Good stuff, too.
Marc:I get powerful.
Marc:In the shower, in the bathtub.
Marc:Yeah, in my living room, occasionally in the car.
Marc:I can really nail it sometimes.
Marc:Are you afraid to sing in public?
Guest:No, I'd sing in public.
Guest:I can croon.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I wouldn't say I'm like Les Miserables type singer.
Marc:But that's what's great about musicals.
Marc:You do a gig, man.
Marc:Get a musical.
Marc:It's the vulnerability of it.
Marc:You don't have to be a good singer.
Marc:You have to be like, Sam Rockwell singing.
Marc:It's nice.
Guest:I would do that.
Guest:I would do Guys and Dolls or something like that.
Guest:You should.
Guest:Come on.
Marc:Where did you come from?
Guest:I came from San Francisco.
Guest:I like this area, by the way.
Guest:I was at that Cafe de la... Oh, yeah, de Leche.
Guest:Cafe de Leche.
Guest:I was in Austin or something.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:It's starting to turn that way.
Marc:I've watched it happen.
Marc:Yeah, it's cool.
Marc:When I moved here, it wasn't there, any of it.
Guest:I like that shit.
Guest:I do, too.
Guest:I like hipster shit.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I like Williamsburg.
Guest:People make fun of beards.
Guest:I like that stuff because, I don't know, they have good coffee and good food.
Marc:Yeah, good coffee, good beer, and there's a creativity, creative spirit in the air with how people organize their shops.
Marc:You're not sure what the point of them is, but you're happy for the effort.
Marc:When you walk in, you're like, all right, you got a few records and a hat.
Guest:Yeah, it's like nice bohemia.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:San Francisco, though, has a whole different, like that place.
Marc:I lived there for a couple years, and I never knew what the fuck was going on there.
Guest:Yeah, it's a lot.
Guest:It's a lot.
Guest:It's not all, you know, Rice-A-Roni and cable cars.
Guest:It's a lot going on there.
Guest:Yeah, right?
Guest:There's ghettos and there's nice neighbors, rich people, poor people.
Marc:There's a creative chaos and a sort of identity chaos that goes on there.
Marc:Like, I never knew who was in charge or what was happening or why that guy is like that.
Marc:You know, a lot of questions.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're born in San Francisco?
Guest:I was born there and then I went to New York.
Guest:My parents separated when I was five.
Guest:We lived in the Bronx.
Marc:But let's talk about San Francisco.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How long were you there?
Guest:I kind of went back and forth, but San Francisco- What part of town?
Guest:Everywhere, man.
Marc:In San Francisco?
Guest:Yeah, in proper.
Guest:I went to school, AP Giannini and McAteer, and Aisha Tyler and Margaret Cho went to McAteer, and we were in sort of a school- Really?
Marc:You were all together?
Guest:Yeah, we were in the School of the Arts.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was like a, you know, like, can you say fuck?
Guest:Can you say fuck?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like a watered down, it was like a low budget fame.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you knew you wanted to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my parents were actors, so I got into it early and I kind of took it for granted.
Marc:And then we... They were actors, like working actors?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then my dad dropped out of that and he became a union organizer and he was in the printing union.
Guest:He was a cab driver.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He did a bunch of jobs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he became a big union guy.
Guest:After acting so like what kind of like the union rep for the supermarket clerks yeah, you know I couldn't cross picket lines we met Harvey Milk when I was like eight we lived in the Castro we lived in the Haight-Ashbury we lived in Park Merced do you remember meeting Harvey Milk we lived in the tenderloin which is you know yeah that's a rough few blocks that was before my dad got a good job and you know really I was a tough yeah we moved around a lot it's in Diego and
Marc:But San Francisco's got a heavy vibe to it.
Marc:Like the weather never changes a lot and it's always sort of cloudy sometimes with that moving fog.
Marc:I always felt that there was a mystical element that was a little bigger than me and kind of dark.
Guest:Kind of Jack London darkness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you feel that?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I loved it.
Guest:I know what you're saying.
Guest:And when we were in high school, we'd always pray for sun, but like...
Guest:Now, when I go back, I'm like, man, I wish I was always like this everywhere.
Marc:Yeah, nice and cool.
Guest:It's clean air.
Marc:Temperature's perfect.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's great.
Marc:Go up to Point Reyes and just sit there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You ever go up north a little bit to Bellinas and shit and walk around?
Guest:No, I've never been up there.
Guest:I feel like I've been up north, but- Well, you know, like Paso Marin, like it's just- Marin County.
Marc:Yeah, those little beach areas.
Marc:I used to go hiking up in Point Reyes and, you know, wander around.
Guest:What's the other, Stenson County?
Guest:Yeah, Stinson Beach, yeah.
Guest:Half Moon Bay.
Guest:Half Moon Bay, yeah, sure, used to drive down there.
Guest:We used to live right by Ocean Beach, actually.
Guest:We used to live right by the beach.
Marc:So when you were a kid, though, did you see your dad act?
Guest:In fact, I remember going to Ocean Beach when John Lennon died.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Kind of having a moment of silence or something.
Marc:How old were you, like 12?
Guest:Yeah, probably, you know, as a kid.
Marc:Yeah, I remember when he died.
Marc:That was horrendous.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't even remember what year that was.
Marc:I remember when he died.
Marc:I remember when Belushi died.
Marc:Belushi was, for some reason, pretty devastating for me, too.
Guest:Did you have Phil Hoffman on this podcast?
Marc:No, who did I just talk to that worked with Phil?
Marc:People have talked about Phil.
Marc:Ethan Hawke was just in here.
Guest:Oh, that's right, I heard, yeah.
Marc:I would have liked to have Phil.
Marc:I imagine it might have happened at some point, but it didn't get to happen.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He was a friend of yours, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's weird when you start knowing people who are, like Gary, who are dying.
Guest:They die.
Guest:It's fucked up, man.
Marc:A few people on this show, because I have to put them back up, you know, out of respect and in memory of it.
Marc:Like, yeah, people, as you get older, dude, it's gonna happen, man.
Guest:It's really weird, man.
Marc:Yeah, I try not to think about it.
Marc:Where are you at with your mortality consciousness?
Guest:I'm not good.
Guest:I think about it every day, man.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure, man.
Marc:Like this is it?
Guest:I'm 47.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, I just think about all that shit, you know, and prostates and all that kind of shit.
Marc:Well, you got to get that checked.
Marc:You're not one of those guys that's sort of like, no, I ain't doing that.
Marc:No, I get it checked.
Guest:I'm clean.
Guest:Good.
Guest:But, you know, it's intense.
Marc:Isn't it weird that so many guys get sick because they're too proud to have a fucking clinical person stick a finger in their ass?
Marc:I mean, grow the fuck up.
Guest:I think it's a denial.
Marc:Sure it is.
Marc:Well, you know, it does feel good.
Marc:But, you know, in that moment, like, well, I don't want to commit to this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's a lot, man.
Guest:It is.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But let's go back to did you ever see your dad work as an actor?
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I saw my mom work.
Guest:I actually worked with my mom on stage when I was a kid, when I was 10.
Marc:In New York?
Guest:But my dad quit before I ever saw him act.
Marc:But that didn't temper your desire to do it?
Marc:Because he probably was like, fuck this.
Marc:Was it that kind of quitting?
Guest:Yeah, he had to raise me.
Guest:I mean, he was a single parent.
Marc:Are you the only child?
Guest:I'm an only child, and then he got remarried when I was like eight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we had kind of more of a middle class.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was sort of a latchkey kid, you know.
Marc:Back and forth?
Guest:Yeah, but that was more kind of... New York and L.A.?
Guest:Yeah, I'd go in the summer to visit my mom, and I'd hang out with her and her crazy bohemian friends.
Guest:She was singing Telegrams.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I went to this high school, but it was like 500 School of the Arts people within 2,000 city kids.
Marc:In San Francisco.
Guest:So it was like, yeah, so we had rich kids coming to do the School of the Arts, and then we also had kids from Hunter's Point and kids from the Mission.
Guest:Integrated.
Guest:It was very integrated and very eclectic in how much money people had, and the football team was probably more popular than the acting group.
Marc:Always, yeah.
Guest:So it wasn't really like a proper school of the arts.
Marc:Right, but at least it gave you the option to sort of work those muscles and have that creativity.
Guest:It did, and I took it for granted.
Guest:I smoked pot and chased girls, and then when I went to New York, I studied with William Esper, and that's where I met my acting coach, Terry Knickerbocker, and that's where things got more...
Guest:Like serious.
Marc:Right, for the acting.
Guest:Yeah, like I was kind of fucking around until I was like 24.
Marc:Were you doing shows or were you doing plays?
Guest:I think I took it for granted because it was the family business.
Guest:In San Francisco?
Guest:Yeah, you know.
Marc:Where were you performing?
Guest:Were you doing shows?
Marc:When I was in high school, you mean?
Marc:Yeah, or in your early 20s, before you went to New York.
Guest:I was just doing restaurant jobs, busting tables, and once in a while, I'd book a commercial.
Guest:I got an agent.
Guest:I'd get these commercials.
Guest:Local commercials?
Guest:Like national commercials.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It would be like winning the lottery.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Which ones did you do?
Guest:I did everything.
Guest:I did Ford Tractor.
Guest:Ford Tractor?
Guest:American Express.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I played a drug dealer.
Guest:I did every Burger King.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I did like tons of commercials.
Marc:So you had residual checks coming in, so you're making money.
Guest:Yeah, so I'd be like a bar back, and then all of a sudden this check would come in, and I could pay the rent for three months.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was the best.
Guest:And then as you get more notoriety in film, you can't obviously, I mean, you can now.
Guest:It's all changing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do commercials, but.
Marc:now everything now you can do it anonymously off now yeah no one knew you you're just a guy working for a living i guess there's no shame in it but some guys as you get older in your name you got to be more decisive about what you're going to be putting your face on yeah so so back then your training was really just what you did in high school and and performing so it was like and my mother my mother teaching me about sort of the rules of improvisation and she was an improviser
Guest:She was.
Guest:She was in a troupe, and that was the play we did.
Guest:It was sort of based on these sketches.
Guest:In New York?
Guest:In New York.
Guest:It was called Joan Crawford's Children.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And it was kind of like Mommy Dearest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was a guy playing Joan Crawford, and my mother was like a sort of a female Dr. Strangelove character.
Guest:She was the nurse to the kids.
Guest:It was very strange.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I learned about improv a little bit, and then I studied Meisner as an adult.
Marc:Meisner, is that where you look at each other and repeat things?
Guest:Yeah, which is also improv-based.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I've done it.
Marc:You just go like, sad.
Marc:Did you do repetition?
Marc:You did some of that?
Marc:No, but I know guys that did it.
Marc:And I'd ask people, what was that like?
Marc:And they'd show me how it was done.
Guest:you know what it's like it's really like this it's like it's like being in the moment right and take trying to put your attention on something else right and then you got to be still and you're kind of naked right like how do you mean like if it's me and you right now like well I say I'd start off with something superficial like that's a green shirt and you go yeah that's a green shirt and I go that's a green shirt and then eventually it might change you'd be like
Guest:you seem kind of perturbed about my green shirt or something.
Marc:And then you start to read behavior.
Marc:So you feel the shift?
Marc:Someone decides that there's a shift?
Marc:Is there a rule to it?
Marc:Like you have to stay on the object for like a minute?
Guest:The shift was always a strange thing.
Guest:Like we never knew when to make the shift.
Guest:And sometimes the teacher would be like, no, don't.
Guest:Stay with it.
Guest:Stay with this.
Marc:He's about to cry.
Marc:Stay with the shirt.
Guest:Stay with the shirt.
Guest:But then you have to change it.
Guest:It has to be where you have to.
Guest:You have to address what's going on.
Marc:And what'd you learn from that?
Guest:Well, I learned, because first there's like these nervous giggles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you start, maybe somebody gets angry or somebody starts crying.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So all this is sort of to strip you down so that you just be.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And that's what we need in acting is just to kind of fucking be.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And stop acting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, that's the thing I hate when people say actors are good liars.
Guest:I think...
Guest:Actually, no.
Guest:If they're trained well, they're supposed to be... That's the time when they really tell the truth.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, see, I think a lot of people, and some actors do this too, if they don't say that they're good liars, they say we're good at pretending, which is a little different, but still that's demeaning to the craft of acting.
Marc:But I think a lot of people don't necessarily have a craft in place and they're just getting away with it because of natural gifts.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's something to be taken seriously if you want to master it like a Robert Duvall or a Meryl Streep or whoever.
Marc:Right, but there are people that are just sort of like, I can do it, and they just show up and they do it, and you're like, fuck that guy.
Marc:And no one knows for the wiser, but then when you see somebody like yourself or Duvall or young actors who take it seriously and they really fucking lock in, you're like, no, there's something different there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what you hope.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you see a really great, you know, when you see Benicio or somebody like that.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Did you watch Sicario?
Guest:Oh, fucking.
Guest:He was incredible.
Marc:What the hell is that?
Marc:What was that?
Guest:I mean, you know, that's great, man.
Marc:Are you guys buddies?
Guest:I know him a little bit.
Guest:He's a nice guy.
Guest:He's actually a very sweet guy.
Guest:Very funny.
Guest:But, yeah, I mean, that's like what he does.
Guest:That's his zone, you know?
Marc:But what you're talking about, you know, I see what you do, too, in a lot of the movies I've seen you in.
Marc:I haven't seen all of them because you're one of those guys where, you know, I look at the goddamn resume and I'm like, holy fuck.
Marc:Am I going to be up all night?
Marc:I'm watching.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But there's a presence is what you're talking about.
Marc:It is an ability to be present and emotional and open.
Marc:Like someone once told me that they were talking to Gene Hackman, I think, how he prepared.
Marc:And he just basically said, I think he said something like, I know how to fill up.
Marc:Like, you know, like before he went on, he could just, you know, pull himself.
Guest:I know how to fill up.
Marc:Something like that.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Yeah, that's great, man.
Guest:Yeah, I worked with him and he would just kind of keep to himself and all of a sudden he'd be like,
Guest:bang yeah you did yeah we did this david mamet movie uh called heist oh yeah yeah yeah and it was i learned a lot from him yeah just watching him yeah yeah i learned a lot you know sometimes the camera department you know i'm very i'm very accommodating yeah me sam naturally yeah i'm like a people pleaser kind of guy you know years of therapy has helped me oh yeah is that what would you track that to the divorce or you know the people pleasing like you know
Guest:You know, who the fuck knows?
Guest:I mean, I went to a lot of different schools and I had to make friends quick.
Guest:And maybe that's why I have good social skills.
Guest:But I think that, you know, I think often actors are terribly insecure.
Guest:And I think it takes years to learn to kind of ask for what you need on a set or to say, leave me alone.
Guest:yeah leave me alone let me do my thing you know and i was in a scene with him in the car yeah and he's got to get angry at my character right and they keep the camera keep camera department is trying to do the shot and they keep sort of telling gene hackman to kind of go like you know hey gene can you can you move a little bit to the on the dashboard you know he's like yeah yeah okay and he's like
Guest:you know we just watch you think he could just come he's like guys guys don't hand me in don't hand me in okay because you know he's got to get emotional right there he's got to yell at my character right and he's got to come from a real and so i don't i think he was protecting himself right he was saying i don't think he was being an right no of course not he was just protecting say hey guys i need to i need to move around here yeah this is not a technical scene you know right right sometimes it's camera day and sometimes it's actor day sometimes it's both
Guest:right you know and you sure so it's like pull back get your master and yeah yeah you know what i mean yeah i saw jeffrey wright do that too and it was beautiful he and and you know it's like what'd you do with him i did this movie single shot and you know you're you're doing scenes where you're you're like driving and the camera department's like can you just go down a
Guest:just go down a little more you're like hey man i can't drive the car like this man you know like enough already you know so you do the best you can and you know that they and you know dps are amazing yeah i have complete respect right but you know but there is a moment where like they they like come on guys you know right where they they're not really thinking in terms of the practicality of what you have to achieve they just want to cheat the shot it's because like it's like your eye lines over here it's
Marc:That doesn't make sense.
Marc:And then you're looking over there and you're having a conversation that doesn't even exist in real life, but that's the magic of movie you make.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you know this, you're doing the show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, right.
Guest:And one of my pet peeves is like, nobody cares about the actor off camera.
Guest:Right.
Guest:nobody gives a fuck about the and i'm like that's just as important to me yeah yeah is the actor off camera sure absolutely like there's something going on here in order to get something out of you yeah he's got to show up for me yeah we're doing something here yeah i'm here for you know maya rudolph or whoever right you know yeah and you know you're there for somebody right and you're like i'm not just trying to get right next to the yeah yeah
Guest:Fucking lens.
Guest:I'm doing something here.
Guest:I'm working too, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anyway, I sound like I'm bitching or something.
Marc:No, you're not bitching.
Marc:It's just like, it's not all the time that I can talk to actors about acting because a lot of times, you know, anyone's craft around it.
Marc:or how they got to where they are is not that defined.
Marc:They learn some things when they're younger, and then they integrate some things, but they can't sit there and tell you what it is.
Marc:I just had Ethan Hawke in here, and one of the most astounding things that he said was that in order to do training day,
Marc:He basically watched Denzel movies because it was like he was watching game footage.
Marc:That's how he prepared?
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:Not the character.
Guest:That sounds terrifying.
Marc:Not the character, but the sense that he knew how Denzel handled the scene.
Marc:And he knew that if he was going to own himself and his character, that he really had to show up and be right alongside Denzel.
Marc:Not let Denzel push him down.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just drive over him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was almost like he's preparing for a game.
Marc:You know, he's, like, watching game footage.
Marc:Like, see, I see how he move right there.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:That's smart.
Guest:That's smart.
Guest:I wouldn't have the balls to... Ethan's a very, very smart guy.
Guest:I mean, you know, I wouldn't have... That would make me nervous, but I... Because I would start to get, like, hero worship or something.
Marc:Yeah, I'd get that, too.
Marc:I mean, it's very hard for me.
Marc:And then the people-pleasing just destroys you if you got the hero worship.
Guest:You're like, well, what can I do?
Guest:Yeah, that's bit me on the ass a couple times.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Working with big stars?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know, early on, you know, you can't... In films or TV?
Guest:In films, TV, and you kind of... Like who?
Guest:Give over your... Sure, yeah.
Guest:Chi, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You can't... Well, I'd rather not say, but I... Early on, I was definitely like, you know, you can't be a fan...
Guest:in the scene in the scene you know you gotta kind of but i like that ethan was kind of strategically going okay this is what i'm this is i gotta watch out for that pass and that thing a little bit that's kind of cool i like that yeah and it wasn't you know it was you know he loves denzel was no disrespect but he just wanted to he wanted to to to have his space
Marc:When you're with a dude that's just a force of nature, you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:And that paid off.
Guest:I mean, Ethan's great in that.
Guest:That's a great movie, and they're both great in it.
Guest:When you were in New York, would you start with theater?
Guest:I started in theater, and I just did a play in New York with Nina Arianda.
Guest:We did a play on Broadway.
Guest:We did this Fool for Love, and I continue to try to do theater.
Guest:It's like going to the gym.
Guest:It's like doing stand-up, I would imagine.
Guest:Yeah, that's exactly what it's like.
Guest:You're not gonna do that in film, so it's like working those muscles.
Marc:Right, there's no cut.
Guest:Yeah, it's you, man.
Guest:You got to go.
Guest:All the way through.
Guest:All the way through.
Guest:Hold it.
Guest:You got to hold it.
Guest:I had to do a lasso, too.
Guest:That was a lot of pressure.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I'm glad that's over.
Guest:Yeah, I had to fucking nail these objects with this lasso.
Marc:How long was the run?
Guest:And I had nightmares that, you know, Ed Harris, the role was written for Ed Harris.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And back, he did it like 30 years ago.
Marc:I wonder how that guy's doing.
Guest:I think he's doing good.
Guest:He's doing Westworld.
Guest:Is he?
Marc:A new remake of it?
Guest:Yeah, it's on HBO.
Guest:He's doing the Yul Brynner part?
Guest:I think he's doing the Yul Brynner part.
Guest:The robot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Good casting, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But he came to the play finally, and he was very nice.
Guest:He was very... And thank God I roped good that night because I had nightmares that he was in the audience every night in the roping scene.
Guest:Because I'd heard all these stories about his performance.
Guest:He did it 30 years ago.
Guest:Nailed it every time.
Guest:Kathy Baker.
Marc:invented the roping scene yeah i said to sam shepherd did he ever miss he's like no no i'm like really he never missed come on you know was it a shepherd play it's sam shepherd play which one is for love oh fool for love is what you're talking about yeah yeah i yeah i remember that i remember when that came out it was a pretty stripped down thing for sam like it was like different than like you know his sort of like verbose
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Earlier plays where, you know, it was very, you know, two characters.
Guest:Yeah, pretty much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's these other characters.
Guest:The guy, Martin, who comes in and the old man is sort of like the dad.
Guest:And Gordon Joseph Weiss and Tom Pelfrey did that.
Guest:Nina Arianda and I are the two lovers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it turns out they're half brother and sister.
Guest:It's very.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's always a dad in his plays that walks in and it brings the darkness.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Marc:No, it's a dark play, but it's a cool play.
Guest:Did he direct you in it?
Guest:No, Daniel Locken, this British guy, he's a wonderful director.
Guest:He directed it, and we had a lot of fun with it.
Marc:And Phillip, what was your relationship with him?
Guest:Oh, Phil was a friend, and then he was an amazing director, and he taught me a lot about stage acting, but he was a dear friend, and obviously he was kind of a mentor, even though we're about the same age.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were about the same age.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I learned a lot from Phil, you know.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like when you're stage acting?
Guest:He really looked at it like an athletic event.
Guest:I mean, he had, like, you know, wrestling background.
Guest:Right, in high school?
Guest:Yeah, he kind of coached us like it was almost like a football game, you know?
Guest:It was like Hoosiers or something, you know?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but he would say incredible stuff to me and Eric, and we were doing the scene, Judas and the Devil.
Guest:It was called Last Days of Judas Iscariot, and he'd say...
Guest:you know you guys are getting laughs and i know we got some rewrites and it's you're getting a lot of laughs he's like i give a if you get laughs it's just i want to scare the audience a little bit you know i want to make them nervous right right and um so he had this attitude he really wanted you knew that he could
Guest:He could talk the talk, but he could also walk the walk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I've seen him on, I saw him on stage in True West and Death of a Salesman.
Guest:I think I saw him in True West.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's a fucking monster.
Guest:He's like George C. Scott.
Guest:I mean, he was a monster.
Marc:Didn't he do True West where they would switch up?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, with John C. Reilly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They'd switch the roles up?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Marc:That's pretty insane, man.
Marc:Pretty insane.
Marc:Yeah, to do Lee and Austin and just to flip it?
Marc:yeah yeah yeah insane yeah but he could do it he could do it and he demanded a lot of himself when he was on stage that's probably what exhausted him and made him so fragile like he he he definitely had this sensitivity like he was very willing to to go to those places that might break you in real life you know what i mean absolutely absolutely that's what made him special i mean yeah he was he was one of a kind you know
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And when, when, when you, um, because I, I think you, you will make yourself available too, but you seem to like to do funny shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like to do funny shit.
Guest:You know, you kind of, either you do, either you're funny or you're not funny, I guess.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I was just talking about the other day.
Guest:I mean, I don't try to be funny sometimes.
Guest:You're hilarious.
Guest:Actually, I was trying to.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, but you're a naturally funny guy.
Marc:I think people are just funny or they're not.
Marc:In my racket, I've seen comics who are not naturally funny by any stretch of the imagination figure out how to do stand-up and learn the craft and be funny because they can only be funny in a certain way.
Guest:I'm curious who you're talking about when you say that, like a Stephen Wright or somebody.
Marc:Well, Stephen Wright's pretty funny because those kind of guys, they kind of invent their own time zones.
Marc:you know so like you know if you enter steven wright land yeah you're going to be laughing because you know he's he's operating at a different frequency yeah so that you know he figured that out for himself and usually that's what it is if you know if you don't have a class clown personality you're not like hey look at me but you have some commitment to being funny you got to figure out how to hold it you know and be in it you know and i've seen guys who like when i first see him i'm like what the fuck is this and then eventually they figure it out you know what i
Marc:And it's a real testament to people who know they're funny.
Marc:It's like, they don't get me yet, but I'm going to figure it out.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:It is cool.
Marc:But I think it's probably the same with coming into your own as an actor.
Marc:I mean, because people... When you say Sam Rockwell, people are like, oh yeah, fucking Sam Rockwell.
Marc:They're not like, who?
Marc:So they know who you are because of your personality.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So how do you... Even in Moon, which I fucking loved...
Guest:Hey, thanks, man.
Guest:Thanks a lot.
Marc:That was some good work, dude.
Guest:I'm glad you saw that.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I saw it.
Marc:And I talked to Duncan on an old show I had.
Marc:Like when I did Air America stuff, he came in and I'd just seen it.
Marc:And, you know, we talked.
Marc:He seemed like a sweet guy.
Marc:Great guy.
Guest:Very talented.
Guest:You talked to Lynn Shelton, too.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:She says hi, by the way.
Guest:Yeah, Lynn's awesome.
Guest:Great director.
Guest:Yeah, great director.
Guest:We had a great time.
Marc:And a great sense of comedy.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:No, she's fantastic, man.
Guest:No, yeah, I've been really lucky.
Guest:Moon was really a brain fuck, but it was fun.
Marc:How do you prepare for something like that when you know you're going to be this guy in space alone?
Guest:I mean, what... You know, we bit a lot of stuff off of Dead Ringers with Jeremy Irons, and I watched... That's one of those off-to-the-side movies.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, and that was the best time I've seen that trick done when he played twins.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And actually, my acting coach told me to watch Midnight Cowboy.
Marc:Yeah, for what reason?
Guest:And that was helpful.
Guest:Well, one of the clones is sick, too, so I kind of stole my sickness from... Ratso?
Guest:From Ratso, yeah.
Guest:And I tried to actually duplicate a shot where Ratso's...
Guest:John Boyd's combing Ratso's hair.
Guest:On the bus?
Guest:It's on a stairwell.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:By the party.
Marc:Oh, right, yeah.
Guest:And I said to the technical guys, you know, can we have the clones touch?
Guest:And they're like, oh, you know, that's very difficult to get the clones to touch.
Guest:It takes a lot of... And I was like, well...
Guest:let's you know let's do it man i think it'd be really cool you know yeah yeah yeah one of them's sick and let's let's replicate this little shot with midnight they're like wow this is gonna you know and it was very technical you have if the clones and you pulled it off we did it yeah briefly yeah you know we get and there's like a a c-stand with a tennis ball and you gotta have somebody else's hand or it's it's very technical so yeah that's it that's the thing that i don't think people really appreciate about acting it's like you know you just spent like 12 hours on that
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and you're trying to make a really naturalistic moment and it's very technical.
Guest:That's the job.
Guest:Yeah, that's the job, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's very awkward, yeah, and they don't understand that, yeah, you're losing the light and, you know, whatever, you know, and you're like trying to, yeah.
Marc:When we were shooting my show, there's something I want to see.
Marc:I'm just going to put it out in the world.
Marc:Maybe someone will make it.
Marc:Because when you're shooting in LA in real time, not in a studio, it's like, plane.
Marc:The sound guy's always like, plane.
Marc:And you got to wait it out.
Marc:I just want to see a short film piece where the sound guy, you're on set.
Marc:The sound guy's like, plane.
Marc:And then you hear it crash.
Marc:And the sound guy goes, OK, we're clear.
Guest:There is a movie for that, like Living in Oblivion or something.
Guest:There is a place for that moment.
Marc:What the hell is that guy's name who did that movie?
Guest:Tom DiCillo.
Guest:Yeah, I worked with Tom DiCillo.
Marc:All right, so where does it really start to, when you start to, because it feels like to me the first time you really entered the consciousness was with the Chuck Berris movie.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, actually, Tom DiCillo and I did a movie called Box of Moonlight that got some notoriety, and then I started working after that, and I did a couple movies, Lawn Dog, Safe Man, and then... Safe Man, yeah.
Guest:Safe Man's a cool movie.
Guest:Peter Dinklage, Mark Ruffalo, and Steve Zahn.
Guest:And then it kind of started... And then by the time I did Confessions, I'd done a lot of movies, but I hadn't done anything that people had really seen, although the indie scene was different back then, you
Marc:Yeah, so smaller?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, people were actually going to movies, you know, and now the indie scene's kind of gone to cable a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, there's not really, like... How do you feel about, like, about where the business is at movie-wise?
Marc:I mean, are you a fan of going to the movies?
Guest:I am a fan of going to the movies, and it's a little depressing, but it's also what's happening, you know, and I don't get to movies as much as I'd like to.
Guest:I mean, it's what's happening.
Guest:You kind of have to...
Marc:roll with it yeah you know and they do have these amazing these amazing shows now so it's it's it's kind of the reality you know but you're living in new york and your mom's there still is she still around she's still there she's a painter and uh real artist real artist mom yeah she's a real she's uh yeah she's bohemian spirit yeah yeah and she's like she's there so you're hanging out when when you first go to new york how old were you when you start studying with esper
Guest:I was about 24.
Guest:And you wanted to do method?
Guest:I wanted to have a technique, but I didn't take it seriously.
Guest:And he said, you know, you should really study.
Guest:Know what you're doing.
Marc:He's like one of the guys.
Guest:He's one of the guys.
Marc:Yeah, and I talked to other people who study with Asperger.
Guest:One of Meisner's main protégés.
Marc:So, yeah, let's go from there to there.
Marc:So you do a Meisner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember a lot of, you know, I don't know too much about the group theater and shit, but I know that Stella Adler, Sanford Meisner, and Lee Strasberg went to Russia and met this guy Stanislavski.
Guest:Right, yeah, sure.
Guest:And then they came back and they created their own schools and there was like three schools.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Brando studied with Stella Adler and all that.
Guest:And Duvall, I think, went with Meisner and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you liked Brando, you liked De Niro, you liked those kids?
Guest:Yeah, you know, those were the guys you looked up to.
Guest:So, you know, it's all the same shit.
Guest:It's all good acting is good acting, I think.
Marc:But what was the craft you get to put in place when you work with someone like Esper?
Marc:Like outside of Meisner exercises, you're not doing like fencing or Alexander technique.
Guest:No, that's right.
Guest:It's not a conservatory.
Guest:It's not like Juilliard.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:It's not Rada.
Guest:But I think it just taught... Really, the big thing was...
Guest:your emotional responsibility to the text i guess if that makes any sense like you you have a responsibility to the text yeah to the to the play right you know and and i think that's the biggest thing like you have a responsibility to to bring behavior to this text you know
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To respect it and also disrespect it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To be like, the text means nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's about this.
Marc:Right, about me and you.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I think that's the main thing I got.
Marc:And here's the trick that like always baffles me, because I'm not really much of an actor.
Marc:I've done my TV show, but like...
Marc:how do you fucking i guess i'm just asking for some training um i think you're doing just fine thanks no but how do you like you know when you shoot things where you're doing a scene and then you know that that that scene happens and then you got to do the scene continuity yeah yeah it happens the earlier that day and like you're right that's totally fucked up i totally yeah where you're like some people have like they write it out on fucking paper they're really organized this is where you need to be more tired
Marc:You're like, you remember you've had two drinks here.
Guest:You know, it's always good to go back and look at the script and you look at your notes that you did two months ago and go, okay, oh yeah, I'm coming from there and then just close.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I listen to my lines, so I listen to, I get that rehearsal lap.
Guest:But it's always good to go back.
Guest:Just when you think, oh, I've looked at the script enough.
Guest:You've never really looked at it enough.
Marc:Because it's even funny, even watching the movie I watched last night, Mr. Right.
Marc:When you say, I got to go, and you go outside, and you beat the shit out of that guy.
Marc:Am I going to spoil anything?
Guest:You're saying you shot the interior.
Marc:Right, but then you got to come back in, and you're sweaty.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I just killed a guy.
Marc:I'm going to go back in and act like everything's fine.
Marc:Okay, I got it.
Guest:Sometimes that's just jumping jacks or whatever.
Guest:You do that?
Guest:Yeah, or some bullshit like that.
Guest:Get a little winded.
Guest:Hey, can I get some spritz?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I like to run around the building and stuff, but sometimes you just hold your breath.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's enough.
Guest:You might not be able to move.
Guest:Yeah, right, right, right.
Guest:So you got to hold your breath or something.
Marc:So I guess playing somebody like Chuck Beres, because that movie is a very interesting movie.
Marc:It's an interesting book, and you don't even know what the fuck it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Clooney decides to make a fucking movie out of it.
Guest:yes that's right yeah and did he just approach you and go like you're the guy I think you're the guy for that yeah well you know Charlie Kaufman wrote this incredible script you know I talked to him yes I know I know right that was trippy he's a he's a trippy a lot of levels yeah the guys brains always going brains always going whatever's going on right here that he's working big problems
Guest:You know, he's only got a landline.
Guest:Did you know that?
Marc:That makes sense.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Why wouldn't he?
Marc:Why be distracted with that garbage?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Like those guys who respect their mind enough to know that everything is a distraction.
Marc:It's just going to rob us of our fucking brain.
Marc:Yeah, good for them.
Guest:Yeah, good for them.
Marc:I got to check my text.
Guest:Yeah, no, exactly.
Guest:It's a nightmare, dude.
Guest:It's a nightmare.
Guest:And the only good thing is you can listen to like a podcast or something or look up some art shit or look, you got a picture or whatever.
Guest:Even that's obnoxious.
Guest:But yeah, no, but Clooney really got me that part.
Guest:He fought for me to get that part and it wasn't, you know, they didn't want me to play that part.
Guest:No.
Guest:They wanted, I think they wanted Ben Stiller and we screen tested and then it was, they did not want me for the part.
Marc:It's funny because I think that you and Clooney probably got along great.
Marc:You seem like similar spirits in some way.
Guest:Yeah, I really had a good time with him.
Guest:He's a funny guy.
Guest:Yeah, he is a funny guy.
Marc:He's one of these weird, classy movie stars that kind of can do everything.
Marc:And you're sort of like, there's got to be a flaw somewhere.
Marc:Well, that's just the way I think.
Marc:It's like, this guy can't be as perfect as he seems.
Guest:Everybody's got something.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But he's pretty awesome.
Guest:He's like Tom Hanks.
Guest:He's one of those guys, you know.
Marc:And that was his first film directing job.
Marc:So did you feel like you guys were learning together?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:He was getting after it.
Guest:I mean, he was doing his homework.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He got after it.
Guest:We did these incredible one-er shots.
Guest:I mean, he did an amazing job with that movie.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He did an amazing job.
Marc:It's a great movie.
Guest:He didn't really get the credit till later, like 10 years later.
Marc:Did you go meet with Chuck?
Guest:Yeah, I hung out with Chuck.
Guest:I filmed Chuck.
Guest:I spent a lot of time with Chuck.
Guest:I filmed him.
Guest:I had him tape my lines.
Guest:I was all over Chuck.
Guest:Chuck and I hung out a lot.
Marc:Did he not... Was it true?
Marc:Did he believe it was true?
Guest:He did.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And I didn't really want to know if it was true or not.
Guest:So I just tried to believe that it was true.
Guest:And I was just doing, you know, I was doing Three Days of the Condor or Serpico.
Guest:I didn't want to know what was going on, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, but I, you know, I'd like to see Chuck.
Guest:I think he moved to Paris.
Guest:I don't know where he is.
Guest:I haven't seen him in years, you know?
Marc:I grew up with the gong show on TV.
Guest:You know, he was just this guy, hey, you know, like... He would squint.
Guest:The reason he would squint is because he didn't have his glasses and he was looking at the cue cards, you know?
Guest:People thought he was stoned.
Guest:yeah you know and uh he was a character man he was a character man he created a lot of reality tv the dating game yeah you know games yeah those weird game shows those were showcases for stand-ups yeah like i didn't realize that till much later that like you know you'd see all these comics on you know of course they yeah comics do do bits do stuff yeah yeah no he's i watched a lot of gong shows yeah
Marc:I auditioned for the dating game, and it's a later manifestation when I was out here in the late 80s.
Marc:I was all fucked up on drugs and shit, and I didn't have the confidence for it.
Marc:That was back when I was hanging out with Kenison and shit, or maybe even before.
Guest:How do you audition for the dating game?
Marc:Well, they had segment producers at the time, so they would have regular people, but then they'd want people who had comic shops or something, so you'd go do a fake dating game.
Marc:and see if they want to put you on the real show.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That's the audition.
Marc:I was so squirmy.
Marc:For a guy who spends a lot of time on stage at the beginning, I'm not sure.
Marc:I think I was just doing it for self-destructive reasons.
Marc:I don't want the adulation at the beginning.
Marc:I was just sort of like, what the fuck do you want from me?
Marc:That was my angle.
Marc:Why'd you make me come here?
Guest:To get exposure?
Guest:You got talked into it to get exposure or something?
Marc:What, the dating game?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, I think it was a chick, actually.
Marc:She was booking it, and I think we had a thing for a minute.
Marc:And then I went to her house, and all I remember was a lot of dirty dishes and bugs, and then she was...
Marc:She was a producer on the dating game.
Marc:She asked me if I wanted to do it.
Marc:I'm like, all right, it didn't work out.
Marc:I don't know what happened to her.
Guest:That's awesome.
Marc:You have those stories.
Marc:You get to a certain age and you spend time in and out of this town or in this business where you're like, oh yeah, oh shit, that did happen.
Marc:You have some of those?
Marc:Yeah, sure, sure.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Thank God there was no social media then.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:No, God almighty.
Guest:Some of the shit, no, some of the shit I did, man.
Guest:When things were fun?
Guest:Forget about it, man.
Marc:When things were fun?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what about like all the stuff that you did on television leading up to the movies,
Marc:I mean, some of that shit's pretty real and pretty, you know, like a good training ground, right?
Marc:You did some of those procedurals and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like on TV, law and order and stuff like that.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:That was really, all that was a good training ground.
Marc:And that's booked out in New York, right?
Marc:Mostly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's when, you know, the New York actors were getting jobs on, on those shows and,
Guest:And now it's switched to like Boardwalk Empire and this new vinyl.
Guest:You see a lot of New York actors getting jobs there.
Guest:Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's all, you know, it was network and indies and now it's cable.
Guest:But yeah, it was a good way to make a living and, you know, get some training.
Guest:Working actor.
Guest:Yeah, you know, and as a guest, you always come on with, like, way too much energy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the regulars are, like, falling asleep, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're, like, coming in.
Guest:You're jazzed.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You worked all week on your five lines.
Guest:Yeah, you're ready to cry and shit, you know.
Guest:And they're, like, lunch, you know.
Guest:And you're, like, okay, let's take it down, Rockwell.
Guest:Let's take it down.
Guest:A little too much acting, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:we're just trying to make our day yeah they just want to get finished oh you're trying to win it win an emmy yeah i had that horrible realization when i used to do conan a lot you know where i do you know i do stand up on conan to stand up or panel you know do the thing but i'd get there and you know we'd go out and i'd get out there and we'd do our thing and the audience yeah and then you know there's that moment afterwards they're like oh where are we going now and they're like what do you mean it's
Marc:It's our job.
Marc:We did the same thing yesterday.
Marc:Who are you?
Marc:Well, they're not rude about it.
Marc:You're like, this is cool, man.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:There's that realization like, oh, my God, they do this every day.
Marc:It's a job in a way, but it's show business.
Marc:That's the sad part about show business.
Guest:I know, but it's cool to be overeager and, you know,
Guest:It's actually cooler sometimes.
Marc:Well, right.
Marc:But when you're on set and you're just sort of hanging out, a lot of people talk about how much downtime there is on set.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It doesn't bother me.
Marc:Initially, it's sort of like you go to your trailer and you're like,
Marc:What the fuck am I going to do?
Marc:Am I going to jerk off?
Marc:Am I going to read a book?
Guest:And then you start to realize... I'd be done if I jerked off.
Guest:No acting would be happening that day.
Marc:Where's Rockwell?
Marc:What happened to your energy?
Guest:I left it in a Kleenex in the trailer.
Marc:totally forget it man no that is how do you manage that time it's it's it's i don't like that time at all i mean i hope i that's why i try to you just gotta get out of your trailer take a walk yeah sit in the chair outside i'll just go sit yeah you know on the set and just like you know watch people do set up things yeah you know try not to get in the way of the gaffer the lighting guy yeah yeah we got there it's like we're working okay
Guest:I know, that's when you wish smoking was good for you.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I love smoking on sets.
Marc:But do you have an appreciation for, like, because your dad was a union guy for the union guys?
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:I'm always, like, very aware of the unions.
Guest:People, like, hate unions.
Guest:They're like, oh, the Teamsters, you know, whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, the unions, I grew up to love unions.
Marc:Yeah, and they're all sort of, like, there's this whole sort of tier of employment on a set.
Marc:You know, you got your craft services guy where you're like, you know, where'd they come from?
Marc:You know how they get the gig.
Marc:Sometimes there's a craft service person that's a little too ambitious and walking around with a tray and you're like, I don't know.
Marc:Did you invent this?
Marc:You know, what is this?
Marc:But then there's the one that levels up and then you got your union guys and then you got the actors.
Marc:It's just like in the producer.
Marc:It's kind of amazing.
Guest:It is an amazing thing.
Guest:And it's a dictatorship.
Guest:It's not a democracy.
Guest:I think that people don't always understand.
Marc:Well, you just hope that you have a somewhat benevolent dictator.
Marc:And you've worked with a lot of directors.
Guest:Like a Clooney or somebody who's nice.
Guest:Hopefully you have somebody nice.
Guest:Because it's not a democracy.
Guest:Somebody's boss.
Guest:Yeah, did you work with Woody Allen?
Guest:I did a little part in Celebrity, which is the movie he did with DiCaprio, and I had all these scenes with DiCaprio.
Marc:You guys friends?
Guest:We're friendly.
Guest:We know each other, but we don't hang out.
Marc:What did you think of The Revenant?
Guest:I love The Revenant.
Guest:I mean, I thought it was like Jeremiah Johnson on steroids.
Guest:I love Jeremiah Johnson.
Guest:I mean, I thought it was fucking amazing.
Guest:I thought The Revenant was like... I was like a kid in a candy store.
Guest:Yeah, he did a great job.
Guest:Yeah, I mean... And a pretty sweet guy.
Guest:Like a pretty level guy.
Guest:He's very smart, that guy.
Guest:I was impressed with him when he was working with Woody Allen.
Guest:He was very like...
Guest:Because I was very nervous around Woody Allen.
Guest:And he was like... I mean, he was a kid.
Guest:And he was like, I think it should be this way.
Guest:And I'm like, that's Woody, dude.
Guest:And he was really self-confident.
Guest:I admired that.
Guest:I learned a lot from him.
Marc:But Woody kind of wants that, right?
Marc:He just wants you to do your job, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:DiCaprio actually had this great... I had a scene in a jacuzzi.
Guest:We had prostitutes.
Guest:And it was supposed to be very Caligula, decadent, and cocaine.
Guest:And...
Guest:DiCaprio said, you should have a drumstick or something, like a Roman.
Guest:And I said, yeah, that's a great idea.
Guest:How do I get a drumstick?
Guest:He's like, Woody will go for that?
Guest:He's like, yeah, fuck it.
Guest:Just get a drumstick.
Guest:So we couldn't find a drumstick.
Guest:Let's talk to props first before we present the idea.
Guest:And they had like a lamb shank.
Guest:And we brought it to Woody.
Guest:I said, DiCaprio kind of helped me go there.
Guest:And he said, Sam's got this idea.
Guest:He made it seem like it was my idea.
Guest:And Woody was like,
Guest:you know do you really want to maybe you shouldn't eat that though maybe you should pretend to eat it you know I can't do Woody but you know and so I put some grapes in my mouth and I pretend but you know it worked yeah you know anyway it's just it's it's uh yeah I don't know what the point of that story is but he's very working with Woody
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And DiCaprio.
Guest:And DiCaprio.
Guest:Very nice guy.
Marc:I like that you like Jeremiah Johnson, because I actually had this weird thought before he came over.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I'm a nerd for the 70s.
Guest:We could talk about that for an hour.
Marc:But I had this idea that you should do a remake of Butch and Sundance, a Butch Cassidy and Sundance kid.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I'd love to do that.
Marc:And you should play, I think, the Redford part, right?
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:I mean, I'd play either part.
Marc:Either part, I think you could play.
Marc:You know?
Marc:I just like that you do these parts where you can really kind of, even in Hitchhiker's Guide, where you're just sort of like, you know, it's almost like a rock star weirdo.
Marc:You know, like what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I love that shit, man.
Guest:Yeah, I love that shit too.
Guest:You like getting big and funny and weird.
Guest:I really wanted that to be like a franchise.
Guest:I think I said that earlier.
Guest:Hitchhiker's Guide.
Guest:Yeah, and it's, you know.
Guest:But yeah, that was a great, that was a fun character.
Guest:yeah like i i think i got the idea in my head that you know do you choose like do you have you said no to like huge opportunities i i've said no to money i've said no to money um i wouldn't say like you know i turned down the titanic or something i've turned down every time i've done stuff for money i've regretted it oh yeah i don't i don't really just just for the money i mean right money's part of the equation sure sure but um you want to feel like you're earning an honest living
Guest:Yeah, you know, it's hard to make money in showbiz.
Guest:But, you know, when you get a chance to, it's good.
Guest:But it's like, I always, I try to, I've turned down some money.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, but not just because of the money, because the project, they're obviously offering a lot of money.
Guest:No, I want the money, obviously.
Marc:But like, I'm not going to do that for the money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, there's limits.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're like, I can't, I can't do it, man.
Marc:I can't do it.
Marc:But you're always working, right?
Guest:I'm always working, I'm fine.
Guest:I make a good living, I'm comfortable, and I'm happy just making a good living.
Marc:Would you do a cool TV series?
Guest:I would do something like a true detective, like a 10 part thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I, I'm a little spoiled from the movie world and I like to see my lines in advance and they do a lot of rewrites on the shows.
Guest:And I don't know if I would do well with that.
Guest:I've, I've done a little bit of that on, on Iron Man two with rewrites and, uh, and, um,
Marc:So that's different than improvising.
Marc:You really have Justin Theroux?
Guest:Justin Theroux, who wrote this great script, and we were doing rewrites.
Marc:Like Day of shit?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If it wasn't for him and Favreau, I wouldn't have got through that thing because there were a lot of rewrites.
Guest:Same thing with Charlie's Angels.
Guest:So I had to wear an earwig with this gun scene with Don Cheadle.
Guest:You don't want to do that or look at cue cards.
Guest:So I think that's the main thing is I'd want to just... Maybe that's me being spoiled and wanting to prepare.
Marc:When you prepare, when you say... Because I know what I learned is a lot of it hinges on choices.
Marc:I know the method element of it is being present, but then you sort of have to... I talked to a guy...
Marc:Yesterday, this comic who does TV acting a bit, and he says he'll look at a line, and he'll see where the laugh is, and then he'll start taking apart the line thinking like, well, I can maximize the laughs.
Marc:I can get four laughs out of this line where there's one written.
Marc:Do you make choices like that?
Guest:No, I try to not, even though I know where the laughs are sometimes, and I see that instinctively, and maybe unconsciously you're going for a laugh, but I think that's a danger.
Guest:There's a real danger there.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Marc:But what about just, even if it's not laugh, even if for emotional impact, do you make those kind of decisions?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, I mean, you know, the danger is when you're asking to pass the salt and you know you can get a laugh there.
Guest:I mean, sometimes you just got to ask, you know, can you pass the salt?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And not go for the laugh.
Guest:Of course, of course.
Guest:But, yeah, I think I like to stew and shit a little bit.
Guest:Stew with the part a little bit.
Guest:And you don't always have that luxury.
Guest:That's a luxury now, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But if you can get, you know, a couple months to prepare.
Guest:I mean, you know, there's a reason Daniel Day-Lewis is so good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know he prepared for a year for the lincoln thing you know he told tony kushner i think he was allowed to say no more rewrites right right he has that cloud right right you know and he's fucking great in that part right because he prepared for and he does one movie a decade yeah you know and i you know me and nina ran lines for a year for fool for love and me and nina arianda and and we did good work because we had a year you know if you have a year or two months and that's a luxury and people don't get that but
Guest:It should be more like that than it is.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:But it's not that way.
Marc:Yeah, not in movies where you're like, we've got to get this done by today.
Guest:That's why you've got to prepare ahead of time.
Guest:That's the extra work.
Guest:But anyway.
Marc:But when you did this role, let's talk as we wrap it up about Mr. Right, because really your performance and your relationship with Anna Kendrick is great.
Marc:And I imagine you look at this guy and you're like, well, there's a guy that used to kill people and he really doesn't want to do it anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I could see how that could be sort of characterologically a meaty thing to sort of work on.
Marc:You're presenting yourself in a very flat tone about what you're doing, but you're telling the truth, but it comes off as jokes.
Marc:But there's part of you that's really wrestling with the morality of the thing.
Guest:Yeah, sure, sure.
Guest:I think there's a book I read about psychopaths, for seven psychopaths, actually.
Guest:I think some of the homework.
Guest:John Ronson's book?
Guest:Yeah, is that the one?
Guest:Yeah, the psychopath, the British guy, right?
Guest:The psychopath test.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:That book was really helpful.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:For seven psychopaths, which is a Martin McDonough movie.
Guest:And I think maybe some of that helped.
Guest:But really, I mean, a lot of the homework was just, I mean, like movies like, I mean, literally like Romancing the Stone or Gross Point Blank, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Having that kind of tone.
Marc:tone you know and because we got anna we were really lucky because she could do that you know it's a it's a particular thing well i think i i love what you do and i and i and i love your presence and you do great work vice versa dude and i'm glad we got to talk yeah man and uh good luck with the with the talk today you're gonna you're gonna be sitting with aisha yes that's right who you went to high school with yes we did we briefly dated yes oh did you yeah well get prepared to talk about that yeah yeah you ready
Marc:You ready to do that?
Guest:Yeah, I'm ready.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Marc:How great was that?
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:Me and Sam Rockwell.
Marc:The movie is Mr. Right.
Marc:It's got Anna Kendrick in it.
Marc:It comes out this Friday.
Marc:You can always go to WTFPod.com for that kind of stuff.
Marc:My dates.
Marc:Oh, don't worry about it.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash calendar.
Marc:I think that Nebraska sold out and Iowa City sold out.
Marc:Kansas City on the 10th at the Midland Theater, whatever.
Marc:Yeah, grab tickets for that.
Marc:You can go to WTFPod.com slash calendar.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Oh, yeah, I'm on a Trapper Shep album.
Marc:Their new record, Rangers and Valentines, comes out on Friday.
Marc:You can get it wherever you get music.
Marc:And if you check out the last track, Dream, you'll hear me on guitar back there in the mix.
Marc:Yesterday, me and my buddy Jack Boulware, just who I hadn't seen in a long time, we hadn't hung out, just set up a couple amps in the living room yesterday and jammed like old guys.
Marc:It's funny what you end up on.
Marc:I think we did Cowgirl in the Sand for a half hour and Stormy Monday for another half hour and felt like rock gods.
Marc:That's the way that works.
Marc:Boomer Lives!