Episode 675 - Michael Moore
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right folks let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is wtf my podcast thank you for tuning in if you're new here welcome if you're just hanging around nice to see you again wherever you are if you're digging snow i hope i'm helping out maybe perhaps hopefully by the time that you
Marc:hear this.
Marc:Maybe you'll have that all done or maybe some of it's melted away.
Marc:But if I can be any assistance, if you're sitting at home alone, perhaps by candlelight because you have to, I hope that I am a comforting force in your life.
Marc:I hope I'm distracting you.
Marc:It's one of the things I actually miss it.
Marc:I know it's probably hard for you to hear this, but I sort of miss that about the East Coast, that day where you wake up and there's this calm, there's this peace, there's this quiet, there's no way to get your car out, and there's just no way to see how it's ever going to thaw.
Marc:And then you realize, like, well, this is all pretty right now, but pretty soon it's just going to turn into gross gray, icy mud, crusty garbage, just things frozen.
Marc:The days of thawing are really kind of, they're relieving, but quite disgusting on the road.
Marc:But anyways, I hope you're okay and you made it through it.
Marc:You know who I'm talking to.
Marc:So what's going on?
Marc:Let's start.
Marc:I will tell you this right now, right out of the gate.
Marc:Michael Moore.
Marc:is my guest today.
Marc:This conversation was recorded in November, and we held it until we were closer to the release of Michael's new documentary, Where to Invade Next.
Marc:So I guess what I'm saying very plainly is you will not hear us talk about the current water crisis in Flint, Michigan.
Marc:The true horror of that situation had not...
Marc:had not come to light at the time we recorded this conversation.
Marc:And as you know, I'm sure Michael has plenty to say if he hasn't already about that.
Marc:But this was done a little while back, but it's a good talk.
Marc:Also, I want to mention...
Marc:uh here because uh you know a lot of you didn't buy my book that's fine i mean how much of me can you take but but i i want to mention that the ebook of attempting normal is on sale for a limited time for a buck 99 everywhere ebooks are sold so there's that we got to talk about some shit
Marc:All right, let me figure it out.
Marc:Let me figure out how to talk about it.
Marc:Now, the first time that I met, that I really sort of met or knew about Amy Schumer was probably 2011.
Marc:And the situation was pretty...
Marc:It was it was amazing because because I didn't know her.
Marc:I did not know her comedy.
Marc:I was doing a live WTF at the now defunct comics comedy club in New York.
Marc:And we had broken up that night.
Marc:There was it was a two there were two shows.
Marc:We had the we had the nerd show and then we had the dirt show.
Marc:This is my concept.
Marc:So the second show was just going to be filthy comics.
Marc:And on that show, I had booked Joe DeRosa, Kurt Metzger, Anthony Jeselnik, Robert Kelly.
Marc:Dave Attell was closing.
Marc:And that is just an avalanche of honest, raw filth.
Marc:Just beautiful, expressive, dirty dudes.
Marc:And at that time...
Marc:Amy was dating Anthony Jeselnik, and she was backstage.
Marc:And I said to my producer, I'm like, you know, we should put her on.
Marc:I mean, if she wants to go on at the end of this thing.
Marc:But part of me was like, you know, and she immediately said, yeah, I'll go on.
Marc:I said, you want to go on?
Marc:Yeah, I'll go on.
Marc:And I was going to use her to close with.
Marc:And that is a murderer's row there, buddy.
Marc:Who's saying is that?
Marc:I see that around a lot, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:And, you know, DeRosa, Metzger, Jeselnik, Kelly, Attell.
Marc:And Amy said she would close.
Marc:And I was astounded because there was part of me.
Marc:I didn't know who she was.
Marc:And I'm like, well, I mean, you know, can this chick handle this thing?
Marc:You know, and and, you know, and I brought her out and she just fucking killed.
Marc:And it was amazing.
Marc:And that was 2011.
Marc:You know, she's a real fucking deal.
Marc:She's a real fucking comic.
Marc:No question.
Yeah.
Marc:And then after the show, you know, I'd been given a little bit of money to pay like 50 bucks, you know, to people, to the comics, you know, from comics.
Marc:and uh you know we had my producer brendan and i were you know he was giving out the money and we went to give a tell his 50 and he said you know what give it to amy all right so that obviously a kind gesture on on behalf of a tell and you know a respectful gesture but but the point being amy schumer is a real fucking comic so
Marc:Here's the thing.
Marc:All this fucking this this onslaught of accusations, this momentum, this fucking mob attack on Amy Schumer.
Marc:It's fucking ridiculous.
Marc:It's just fucking ridiculous.
Marc:So where does it come from?
Marc:You know what?
Marc:You know what?
Marc:What is it?
Marc:What is it really about?
Marc:What is the real pattern here?
Marc:Right?
Marc:What is it?
Marc:What is the real pattern?
Marc:Three examples on a video of... Here's why I'm talking about this.
Marc:Not because it's my responsibility.
Marc:I am a comedian and it does rile me, obviously.
Marc:But I was dragged into it a bit because a few months ago on the episode with Aaron Draplin, episode 649, I had watched...
Marc:amy special and she did a bit and uh it was about uh you know about people coming about everyone coming now this is not again if you work dirty you know talking about cum is going to be part of your repertoire i mean fucking lenny did it right did you come good did you come did you come good i didn't steal that i'm i'm citing it
Marc:I watched her bit and I was like, oh, fuck.
Marc:That's a lot like my bit.
Marc:It's almost like the female side of my bit.
Marc:Now, my immediate thought, and I'm just repeating myself because this the episode that I did it on 649 Aaron Draplin was was taken out of context, edited.
Marc:The conversation I had was edited by some fucking monkey.
Marc:To sound like I accused Amy of stealing.
Marc:And then Opie and Jim got duped by a troll.
Marc:They played it on the air.
Marc:I didn't think that Amy stole my bit.
Marc:I was mad that we had a similar bit.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:There was no way either of us could have taken each other's bit.
Marc:She lives in a different city.
Marc:We don't work together.
Marc:We're both headliners.
Marc:I knew all this.
Marc:I found out that we take those specials a week apart.
Marc:There was no way.
Marc:But we don't live in the same world.
Marc:Really?
Marc:We don't see each other.
Marc:Now we both have a similar bit.
Marc:So what?
Marc:So what?
Marc:There's no stealing.
Marc:Everybody does come.
Marc:The point is that some fucking monkey to serve an agenda edited my words to support his agenda, his agenda to accuse Amy of stealing.
Marc:Now,
Marc:There is a difference between, you know, justice and fucking annihilation attack.
Marc:It's a difference.
Marc:Now, I know some female comics, Wendy Liebman, Kathleen Madigan, Tammy Pescatelli.
Marc:You know, got mad at her and tweeted things and whatever.
Marc:And they eventually, you know, I think all of them recanted or apologized because it's fucking ridiculous.
Marc:But that gave a foundation to what's happening now.
Marc:And what is happening now?
Marc:Is it about justice?
Marc:Who's really attacking Amy Schumer?
Marc:I watch those fucking videos.
Marc:I'm a comic.
Marc:If you're a comic and this meme has driven into your skull and you're actually sitting there going, I think she did it.
Marc:Then you're a fucking amateur or you're bitter or you don't like her.
Marc:The tabloid media, I mean, they're complicit out of desperation and you can't expect them to have a moral compass.
Marc:So they support the fucking meme.
Marc:The video goes out.
Marc:Where does it come from?
Marc:Who are those fucking people, right?
Marc:So I watched your video.
Marc:The first joke, the Wendy Liebman joke.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:It's a one liner.
Marc:Who gives a fuck?
Marc:I mean, if someone is really hanging on to a 20 year old one liner as being this essential part of her fucking oeuvre, that's crazy.
Marc:One liners are disposable.
Marc:They're disposable.
Marc:Nightly.
Marc:Writers who write monologues for fucking TV shows, they throw away 51 liners a day.
Marc:A genius like Dave Attell has thrown away more one liners than most of us have ever written.
Marc:Attell is hilarious.
Marc:It becomes impossible to sort of vet this stuff is my point.
Marc:As a comic, that one liner about, you know, I like when men pay, whatever.
Marc:Anyone could have written that.
Marc:Any woman could have written that.
Marc:Any comic could have written that.
Marc:That's just the truth of it.
Marc:If you're right, you're right, you're right.
Marc:Your point of view, you're right to your point of view.
Marc:She's a woman, they're women, and it was easy.
Marc:It's not theft.
Marc:It's just a matter of time.
Marc:It's just a one-liner.
Marc:It means nothing.
Marc:It does not define Amy.
Marc:It doesn't define Wendy.
Marc:It has nothing.
Marc:If that joke didn't exist with either of them, who cares?
Marc:They're still who they are.
Marc:They're entertainers or comics.
Marc:Not theft.
Marc:The second bit, the Kathleen Madigan bit, a similar idea became a sketch on Amy's show.
Marc:Shows are written by committee.
Marc:There's a group of writers in the room.
Marc:Someone come up with an idea.
Marc:That was the idea.
Marc:I guarantee you, even if somebody said, yeah, I think I heard a similar joke about this, but it wasn't the same thing.
Marc:It was about Oprah Winfrey paying somebody.
Marc:Even if that came up, I don't know whose joke it was, there was a real good chance that they were like, it's different.
Marc:You know why?
Marc:Because it is different.
Marc:It's a sketch.
Marc:It was executed.
Marc:It was a piece of film.
Marc:It was orchestrated, composed sketch with many beats.
Marc:That idea is not owned for fuck's sake.
Marc:Not theft.
Marc:It's just stupid.
Marc:The Pescatelli thing, I don't even know what that... What was that about?
Marc:Women with thin eyebrows?
Marc:Yeah, shit.
Marc:I was... Just making that joke in junior high school.
Marc:It's just... They're not anything.
Marc:They're not... None of them are mystifying original observations, really.
Marc:They're just not...
Marc:Amy Schumer is a comedian.
Marc:You can't.
Marc:It becomes impossible to vet mundane material based on observations.
Marc:It becomes very difficult.
Marc:There are thousands of fucking comics churning out jokes every fucking day everywhere.
Marc:The people that I've spoken to, the people that I've met in this business that have been accused of joke theft, I truly believe that most of them have no idea that they're stealing them.
Marc:That's not an apology for the ones that have certainly been guilty of stealing swaths of material.
Marc:But in terms of one liners or little ideas like that, I mean, it's are you fucking kidding me?
Marc:Comedians absorb what's coming in and they process it.
Marc:We've all been in the rooms of stand up comedy clubs for most of our lives, hours and hours.
Marc:And now the thing is, is in order to vet a joke.
Marc:against the history of recorded comedy on album or or on television it's impossible and this is not an apologist position this is just a reality all you can do is like that sounds a little familiar maybe i had to hold off on that it just becomes impossible to vet everything especially little ideas
Marc:I mean, Attell used to write.
Marc:Attell is hilarious.
Marc:Attell is like one of the most prolific joke writers in the world.
Marc:And there are a few of us, you know, sometime, you know, back in the day.
Marc:I mean, I think I've talked about this here before.
Marc:Once or twice a year, maybe you'll get a call from Attell and he'd be like, hey, do you do a bit about jerking off in the Bible?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:He's like, oh, I thought.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, what are you going to do?
Marc:You come up with an idea.
Marc:And that's an original idea.
Marc:Jerking off in the Bible is pretty specific.
Marc:And I'm flattered that he thought maybe that I might have done a bit about jerking off in the Bible.
Marc:But if you come up with a thing, an observational thing or a bit about something that we all experience, how are you going to vet that?
Marc:It's not even that attack.
Marc:It's just we all share the same reality.
Marc:And if you're a comic and you're thinking funny, the possibilities...
Marc:of a lot of people doing similar jokes around things that we all fucking do or things that are sort of our point of view related is high.
Marc:Have you watched fucking network sitcoms?
Marc:Do you watch the monologues that happen every fucking night on nightly talk shows?
Marc:Where's the outrage about the repetition of current event jokes or the repetition of sitcom plots?
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:This is fucking comedy for fuck's sake.
Marc:So what is the pattern?
Marc:What is the real pattern?
Marc:It's certainly not a pattern of Amy stealing jokes.
Marc:It doesn't exist.
Marc:So what is it?
Marc:Well, I'll tell you.
Marc:I had a thing on my website, on wtfpod.com.
Marc:And there used to be a comment board, just an open comment board.
Marc:Now, this is this is true shit.
Marc:You know, and sometimes, you know, I get, you know, people say I don't have enough women on the show, but I have as many women as I can get.
Marc:The point is, I had an open comment section that I had to shut down.
Marc:Now, it's changed now.
Marc:Now, you have to if you want to comment on WTF pod dot com, you have to go through Facebook.
Marc:So you have to identify yourself.
Marc:It's a little it's a little harder to be anonymous.
Marc:when you have to post through Facebook.
Marc:But before we did that, without fucking fail,
Marc:If we had a woman guest, doesn't matter who it was or what she did, if there was a woman guest on this show, the comment section would blow up with fucking douchebags attacking that woman with just fucking garbage, slander, violence, just nasty shit.
Marc:Just a fucking string of anonymous fucking monsters.
Marc:slinging garbage at any woman guest.
Marc:So what is that about?
Marc:That was the pattern.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:So then you start looking at this attack, you know, this fight for justice, this sort of righteous idea that you're going to police comedy and call out joke thieves.
Marc:So that means that there's some fucking dude, and they're all dudes.
Marc:Look at it.
Marc:They're all fucking dudes who champion this thing.
Marc:So where's all this outrage coming from?
Marc:Look at it.
Marc:Look at it.
Marc:Poke around a little bit.
Marc:They're all dudes.
Marc:They're all fucking dudes.
Marc:And they're all saying the same fucking thing.
Marc:It's got nothing to do with justice.
Marc:This is about fucking annihilating a woman, annihilating a comedian, but it's about annihilation.
Marc:It's got nothing to do.
Marc:Here's what happens is that they find this portal.
Marc:It happened with the Gamergate thing too, but they find this portal.
Marc:Amy was vulnerable.
Marc:So they exploited that vulnerability by trying to make a case and putting a lot of work into it, into this case, to the point where they manipulated some of my words to suit their agenda and get that through to try to make that meme happen.
Marc:So they push and they push and they push.
Marc:So now this fucking video is out there.
Marc:Now this meme is out there.
Marc:So now the portal is open.
Marc:So who the fuck are these people?
Marc:It's my belief that...
Marc:What's really happening is that there is this mob momentum.
Marc:There is this consensus built.
Marc:These guys, they have leaders.
Marc:They know who their leaders are.
Marc:They all share the same ideology.
Marc:They have leaders because they're too weak not to have leaders.
Marc:And they all think the same.
Marc:What is happening with Amy has nothing to do with justice.
Marc:It has nothing to do with justice.
Marc:with comedy.
Marc:What's happening is that, this is the real pattern, is that she, through the internet and through video, is literally being verbally career raped by an army of unfuckable hate nerds.
Marc:They play video games all day, then they watch MMA, and then they spend the evening jerking off to deep throat gag porn, and then they wake up and they put a few hours in to shaming Amy, to verbally fucking abusing Amy.
Marc:You read the comments.
Marc:This is not about justice.
Marc:This is about hate.
Marc:Now, look, I'm no fucking saint.
Marc:All fucking dudes have their sexist moments.
Marc:all of us some of us are teachable we all have our sexist moments and hopefully we evolve out of that but misogyny requires commitment and it requires in this case a mob mentality of like-minded people so this isn't about justice not in this case
Marc:This is about it's about hate.
Marc:It's about anger.
Marc:It's about complete fucking woman bashing.
Marc:And it's about this contingent of culture.
Marc:A lot of them, if you go look at their Twitter feeds, a lot of them are Trump supporters because they like an authoritarian leader because they service their hate and their fucking horrible fear and insecurity.
Marc:in terms of you know Amy's just a fucking comic she's an entertainer and she's the real deal whether you like her jokes or not she's a real comic but she's a woman and these fuckers are trying to destroy her
Marc:These are specific people.
Marc:But this momentum culturally is insanely dangerous because what it does to creative people or to people that are trying to put themselves out there, to people that are trying to do new things and open up the minds and do that kind of stuff is that we become fucking self-censoring and paranoid and crazy.
Marc:And it becomes sometimes it's sort of like, is it worth it?
Marc:So if you're just an average dude, and this is spread throughout the culture.
Marc:You know, where people are very quick to know-it-all it.
Marc:You know, like you can't write a sentence without somebody going like, oh, somebody said it.
Marc:You know, so-and-so said the same thing.
Marc:It's a similar thing.
Marc:So, you know, this need to one-up, this need to call, you know, foul, to call theft or whatever.
Marc:All it's going to do eventually is completely stifle creativity.
Marc:Now, obviously, plagiarism is bad when it exists, when it happens.
Marc:Obviously, people profiting over other people's, you know, work, it's horrible.
Marc:It denies people a living.
Marc:But mostly, most of the time, it's just about stifling voices, shutting people down.
Marc:And if these guys, the momentum that exists, the narrow-minded, hateful, frightened momentum of socially, emotionally, and psychologically, and morally compromised individuals
Marc:wins then it's fucking over there's no progress there's no creativity there's no sort of moral compass it's a fucking cultural malignancy
Marc:But the bottom line is, it's like, hey, either you think Amy's funny or you don't, but whatever's going on right now is not about justice or joke theft or anything other than a fucking army of unfuckable hate nerds panicking because they feel like what they represent in the world is diminishing and they can't adapt to progress.
Marc:Like I said, even with my guest today, Michael Moore, I tweeted that I had him on, and immediately people were like, no, no, fuck, I'm going to pass.
Marc:Pass.
Marc:It's very odd.
Marc:Even as a liberal person, Michael can be a little much...
Marc:But the bottom line is that there's a pursuit of truth.
Marc:That is what he represents.
Marc:He doesn't represent the left or the right.
Marc:It has nothing to do with that.
Marc:At some point, either you want to make the reality what you think it should be, or you pursue the truth of what's happening.
Marc:And if you support...
Marc:the garbage or untruth or systemic fucking problems because it fits your line of hate, then fine.
Marc:You're free to have your opinion.
Marc:But what Michael Moore really is as a documentarian, which is what he does, is somebody who was fighting for
Marc:And looking for the truth and fighting for people to be able to earn a living properly, to live in a safe place, to have proper health coverage, to have an America that works for everybody.
Marc:Well, you know, look, I had this conversation again.
Marc:This was before the Flint water horror, so we didn't get into that.
Marc:We didn't get into a lot of stuff, but I talked to him about who he is and about this new movie, which I liked a lot.
Marc:The new movie...
Marc:It's called Where to Invade Next.
Marc:It's a very different approach to documentary than he's done before.
Marc:It's very clever conceit in terms of structure.
Marc:And it was very powerful.
Marc:So let's go now to my conversation with Michael Moore.
Marc:What have you been doing?
Marc:I mean, what have you been doing all day?
Marc:Michael Moore in Hollywood, what are you doing?
Marc:I mean, are you running around?
Guest:Yeah, I've been running around.
Marc:Ongoing narrative?
Marc:Selling that movie?
Marc:No, the movie's sold.
Marc:No, but you know what I mean, getting people.
Guest:Oh, to get people to watch it.
Guest:Oh, they're going to come anyways, aren't they?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I don't need to do any of that.
Marc:Of course, people come because they love you and because they hate you both.
Marc:You're one of these rare people.
Guest:Yeah, the haters have seemed to have died off or something.
Guest:I don't know where they went.
Guest:Well, I think they've got their own problems, Michael.
Marc:I think they're focused on themselves.
Marc:They're all hating each other, imploding.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Well, God bless them.
Marc:What have you done out here?
Marc:What have you been doing?
Marc:uh well last night i came out here and there was a screening of my new movie for uh where to invade next i watched a screen i had a small screening right here in the garage oh you did yeah for just myself for just you yeah it was good i enjoyed it oh thank you i don't want to i don't want to ruin anything but you seem to be softening a bit you seem to it seems like your heart is is getting uh more open and and you're a little forgiving
Guest:That's actually just the subversive part of this.
Guest:I'm actually more angry.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I thought, you know what, I'm going to, I think the wolf in sheep's clothing method might be a little bit better here.
Guest:that was deliberate yeah yeah yeah it was totally i'm so i'm so upset at everything that's going on yeah and i've i've tried for 25 years the the hot poker in the eye effect right and while that has i think brought a lot of people along and it's been good yeah that in appropriate moments um i think this time around i thought uh there's there's a
Guest:There's even a better way to try and reach an even wider audience.
Marc:Oh, geez.
Marc:You had me sold.
Marc:I thought like, hey, Michael Moore's got a little hope.
Marc:He's got a little patience.
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:This movie feels uplifting.
Guest:No, I have no patience.
Guest:And I'm hopeless.
Guest:It's an illusion.
Guest:I'm completely... But I'll tell you, here's what I do.
Guest:Here's what you may have picked up on a little bit.
Guest:I am optimistic.
Guest:I am, in a crazy way, optimistic.
Guest:I'm not a cynic.
Guest:I'm not...
Guest:I don't sit back in my narcissism and just go, eh, it's all fucked up.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So there's a little room in your narcissism to have a little bit of optimism?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There is, like, no... I need narcissism, actually.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:If I actually spent a little bit of each day thinking about myself... Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, I think I would have a better life, frankly.
Guest:No, I'm...
Guest:I'm very much... Look, I mean, I never expected to be doing this anyway, so this is all kind of a... In general, you mean documentary?
Guest:In general, no.
Guest:Well, I hated documentaries.
Guest:I always hated them when I was growing up.
Marc:Well, I think it's interesting that you say you should spend a little more time thinking about yourself, because I think some people think that you... And I actually had a conversation with a woman last night about this.
Marc:I was watching the movie.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I said, I'm learning.
Marc:I feel sad, but Michael's carrying me through it.
Marc:And she said that...
Marc:She's in the film business.
Marc:She said, well, he seems to make it about himself.
Marc:And I said, well, he sort of has to.
Marc:He has to run it through him.
Marc:How else, you know, you've become like you're very careful and it seems on some level relatively image conscious about your role in these movies.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, when she says I make it about myself, it's just because I'm in the movie.
Guest:I mean, it's like saying, that Woody Allen, you know, it's always about him.
Guest:Yeah, Spike Lee, he's just always in his movies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, some of us do that.
Guest:I mean, it's a way of storytelling.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:But it's not because, in my case, that I... Come on, let's be... I mean, look, I'm not that self-loathing on one level, but on another level, it's like if you...
Guest:were me, you wouldn't want to see yourself blown up 50 feet on a movie screen.
Marc:No, I think there's a humility to it, and it's disarming, and it's a way you approach the subject matter and also runs through you.
Marc:The fact that you're telling me you've tempered your rage to... I guess in looking at that film, you sort of had to because you had to act like a human.
Marc:You weren't running around America.
Marc:You were running around other people's countries and politely engaging them with stuff you wanted to learn.
Guest:Well, because I...
Guest:I threw down a challenge to myself in the idea of this movie.
Guest:The conceit of this movie is, how can I make a movie that goes at the heart of everything that's wrong in this country, everything that's all messed up about America, but never shoot a single frame of film or video in this country?
Guest:I make a movie about the United States and never go to the United States.
Marc:And how did you develop it?
Marc:Was it like you woke up sweating and said, I got it?
Guest:No, I've been thinking about this since I was 19.
Guest:Ever since I got a Ur-Rail pass and a youth hostel card and went to Europe with a backpack and wandered around for two months.
Marc:You were there for two months?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What was your temperament then?
Guest:Well, I remember thinking I would be in a country and I would notice something.
Guest:And I would go, how come we don't do that?
Guest:That's such a good idea.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or I would hear about how college is entirely free.
Guest:or i remember i was i was hiking in sweden and yeah busted my foot yeah and went to a had to go to a hospital or a clinic panicked and right you're probably panicked oh my god oh my god i don't have my blue cross card i'm gonna be what is gonna happen to me here and they're like they fixed me up and they go okay have a nice day or however you say that in the bill and i'm like there's no bill oh
Guest:I was like, you've got to be kidding me.
Guest:That's the first time I'd ever heard that.
Marc:That you were like, I think I'll stay here.
Guest:Healthcare was free.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, wow.
Marc:So over the years.
Marc:But wait, before we go there, how politicized were you at that time?
Marc:Because you said that you never thought you'd be doing this.
Marc:I never thought I'd be making a documentary because I didn't like documentaries.
Marc:In general, but you've made like a half dozen or 10 of them.
Guest:yeah yeah i've made nine nine films now but so where did it start you grew up in outside of flint yeah flint michigan right and you were um your dad what my dad was an auto worker my mom was a secretary how old are you now i'm now 61 okay 61 so you're you're you're an honest to god baby boomer yeah i'm a baby boomer and uh you witnessed the 60s saw the 60s 70s and um
Guest:You remember Nixon from junior high, maybe?
Guest:I remember Nixon.
Guest:I remember campaigning for Nixon, actually.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:With your dad?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I was in eighth grade, ninth grade.
Guest:And no, no, no.
Guest:My dad voted Democrats or Irish.
Guest:Always, right.
Guest:But I was so against the war in Vietnam and Johnson and Humphrey and all of that with the war.
Guest:And it was 68.
Guest:And I just thought, you know, I'm not going to do anything to help those guys.
Guest:And what can I do to help the other guy?
Guest:And that's eighth grade.
Guest:That's eighth grade.
Guest:So I didn't really know who Nixon was, you know.
Marc:So who awakened you to the realities of the politics of the war in eighth grade?
Guest:I mean, how did you take that?
Guest:I think I just, I just, I don't know.
Guest:I just watched the news and I just started developing my own ideas.
Guest:No older brothers?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Marc:No guy at the record store?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No priest in the rectory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No cool priest, the hip liberal priest.
Guest:There was actually a hippie priest that was pretty cool.
Guest:And I think probably, yeah, actually I went to Catholic school, so there were those nuns and priests who were very much on the left side of things, and they thought the war was wrong, and they were very much in favor of civil rights and things like that.
Guest:Those are important.
Guest:That probably had a big influence.
Guest:I had a cousin, too, who lived in New York City.
Guest:And my mom's sister had moved to New York way, way back when she was young, married a man who was a state assemblyman, Democrat, part of the Roosevelt machine.
Guest:And she would come, our cousin would come every summer to visit us.
Guest:Is it a woman or a man?
Guest:A man.
Guest:Oh, I mean, no, no.
Guest:The uncle was a man in the state assembly.
Guest:Our cousin's a woman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then she would teach us all this stuff about the Kennedys and Democrats and all that.
Guest:Inside line.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And then when we would go there to New York to visit, they lived on Staten Island.
Guest:And so we would stay there for, I don't know, a month and take the ferry over and got to see and experience and know and learn about New York and that whole thing when we were starting.
Guest:And probably I was, I don't know, eight years old.
Marc:Was that in the late 60s?
Guest:It was 1963.
Marc:Oh, so it hadn't fallen yet.
Marc:New York was still pretty glory.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, it's a great place.
Guest:I mean, literally, and we would take, us kids would just take the ferry by ourselves.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Over there and just wander around.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Get on the subway.
Guest:Yeah, it was still like the Mad Men era.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember standing outside the Ed Sullivan Theater, which wasn't called the Ed Sullivan Theater then.
Guest:It was just where the Ed Sullivan Show was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With our little autograph books, you know, because we're from the Midwest, so we had these little autograph books.
Guest:And I remember standing there waiting to get Roy Rogers' autograph.
Guest:Roy Rogers!
Guest:Yeah, that was a big moment for me.
Guest:Did you get it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:His and Dale.
Guest:His wife, Dale Evans.
Guest:How about the horse?
Guest:Trigger was not there.
Marc:They could fit him in that theater.
Marc:I'm surprised you didn't bring him.
Guest:Yeah, he might have been dead by that time.
Guest:Trigger?
Marc:Oh, that's too bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you're growing up.
Marc:Did you have any fun?
Guest:When I was growing up.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Were you a fun guy?
Guest:My sister and I were just talking about this the other night, how we used to stay out.
Guest:That was back in the day when the parents would tell you to go play in the street.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's the opposite now.
Guest:The helicopter parents.
Guest:Go hang around the corner.
Guest:You hung out on the corner.
Guest:You played baseball, or on the East Coast, you played stickball in the street.
Guest:It was a dirt street that we lived on, so we were just dirty all the time.
Guest:And all the neighbor's kids would come out.
Guest:All the neighbor's kids.
Guest:And then when it got dark, which in Michigan...
Guest:you know because we're so far to the west but we're in the eastern time zone so it didn't get dark till 10 o'clock but then we would stay out for another hour or so and play bloody murder and then you'd hear your mother yell that's what i'd heard that's all the mothers would yell yeah 11 o'clock yeah yeah no we'll see now yeah but the catholic version of the irish version of that is michael francis yeah michael francis it's like
Marc:i'm coming yeah but uh no more minutes 10 more minutes bloody murder we play bloody murder that was our favorite uh-huh yeah i remember that even in early 70s 71 but i grew up in new mexico and i i don't know that that neighborhood where i grew up is is necessarily any different but yours changed a lot yeah yes of course yeah because back then everybody had a job and they had a good job they had a good factory job they were all union guys
Guest:And, you know, they make good money.
Marc:And how old were you when that fell apart?
Marc:How old were you when you saw your father or your neighborhood or your city go through that heartbreak?
Guest:It started when Reagan got elected.
Guest:Basically, it started around 1980.
Guest:And so by that time I was I was 26 years old.
Guest:So I was beyond it.
Guest:and and i had i quit my first day at general motors i didn't i just i could not how old were you i was uh i was right out of high school and you went where your dad got you the gig or what my buddy his dad was uh had a white collar job there so they were hiring and he could get us applications and we got in and we both got hired and the first day i got up and i could i could smell the cigarettes from downstairs my dad was already up getting ready to go to his job in the factory
Guest:And I just laid there in bed, and I just thought, oh, God, I do not want a life of this.
Guest:I just do not want to get up at 4.30 every morning and go build cars.
Guest:But that first cigarette's great.
Marc:I'll tell you that right now.
Marc:I miss those fuckers.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I never smoke, so I don't know.
Marc:That's so funny.
Marc:The kid of a smoker goes either way.
Marc:Either you're going to do it or you're never going to do it.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, no.
Guest:The parents, my dad and his parents, his dad, they smoked a lot, so...
Guest:you just had that smell on you all the time.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird.
Marc:You're talking about it in sort of a slightly negative tone.
Marc:I'm thinking about thinking like, what a great album.
Guest:Your sensory memory is like the perfume.
Marc:Everything smelled like cigarettes for years.
Marc:People forget that.
Marc:Every nightclub, everywhere you went, you smoked on a plane.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You smoked in a theater.
Marc:I don't know how we ever lived with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, it was everywhere.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:I remember when I was in high school smoking on a plane.
Marc:Right.
Marc:In the back.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The last four rows.
Marc:Right.
Marc:As if that's not going to affect the... I know.
Marc:You smelled it through the whole plane.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So, what was your plan then?
Marc:When you decided that wasn't for you.
Guest:I didn't have one.
Guest:And I had enrolled in the local college and I lasted about a year and a half.
Guest:And I went studying what?
Guest:I was studying political science and theater.
Guest:And you had some aspirations to act to act.
Guest:uh yeah or or write uh-huh you know uh write plays something like that did you write any uh yes i did actually i wrote i wrote a play during that year and a half and it won a prize at the university of michigan yeah what was it about it was about it was it was sort of an avant-garde uh piece where took some chances yeah
Guest:Well, essentially, it ends up with this guy looking like Jesus on a cross made of aluminum foil.
Guest:And Jesus is kind of upset at what all his followers are doing.
Guest:And so he pulls the nails out of it.
Guest:You think it's just a cross with like Jesus on it dead.
Guest:But he pulls the nails out and he comes off the cross and starts confronting the audience for their behavior.
Guest:And then I had actors placed in the audience to start stand up and start shutting.
Guest:Get back up there.
Guest:Get back up there.
Guest:Damn you.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:Satire chops in place already.
Guest:And then a guy runs out of the audience.
Guest:God, you could never do this now, right?
Guest:A guy runs out of the audience with a gun.
Guest:leaps on the stage and shoots jesus and then drags him back to the cross wow and then then there's people there and they decide they help put the dead jesus now back up on the on the cross that this was uh i i think i don't think your comedy chops were in place yet it was funny at the beginning right
Marc:I thought it was funny, the idea of them telling you to get back up on the cross, but you took it all the way.
Guest:Well, the play was trying to say that essentially some Christians like their Jesus dead and on a cross.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I mean, that's what they've grown up with.
Marc:I mean, it's a hard thing to wrap your brain around otherwise.
Guest:If they actually had to live...
Guest:what he said to do, to love your neighbor, to do good to those who persecute you, to turn the other cheek, that the poor get into heaven before anybody else.
Guest:You know, if they actually had to live that life.
Marc:Or even really process those things philosophically, which I thought was interesting about the film, is that people were speaking about the nature of brotherly love, of community, of pride in the people of your country.
Marc:in a way that was collaborative and respectful without talk of religion or Christianity at all.
Marc:It was second nature.
Marc:That was a very fascinating thing that when you were talking to the people in, I think, Sweden and Norway,
Marc:In Norway, yeah.
Marc:In Norway, the type of vengeful justice and also the type of selfish, self-serving individualism that really drives this country and the greed, it doesn't even register today.
Guest:It's fascinating.
Guest:No, like they said, they organize themselves around the concept of we and
Guest:And we organize ourselves around the concept of me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll take care of me.
Guest:You take care of you.
Marc:Was that always the way?
Marc:I mean, do you see it seems to me that on some level with with with what you what your sense of justice is and what your sense of how things should be.
Marc:Do you remember a time where it was closer to that?
Marc:Do you have some fond memory?
Marc:Do you believe there was an America that functioned properly at a time in your life?
Marc:For white people.
Marc:Well, yeah, I get that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think, yes, of course.
Guest:I think back when I was growing up, the sense of community that people had, how they felt and treated each other, you know, in the community, in the neighborhood, you would take care of it.
Guest:You could leave the house and the neighbor would look after the kids.
Guest:Now you don't even know the neighbor's name two doors down from you.
Guest:You know, it's that sort of thing.
Guest:We do live in a different world like that.
Marc:There's a lot of weird detachment, Michael.
Marc:And it's like and I don't know.
Marc:It's sort of a benign evil in the way that I don't know that people even know they're doing it.
Marc:It doesn't seem to be necessarily malice in it.
Marc:But there seems to be sort of like you see shit go down and people like in some of these videos you see of like those cops taking that kid out of that desk and throwing that kid to the ground that the other students didn't even look up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They just know that's the normal.
Guest:That's the normal to them.
Guest:And so it wasn't unusual.
Guest:And then later we find out he was nicknamed Officer Slam.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, that's what they called him in school.
Marc:It's interesting that this movie, you were able to really cover everything that you've been working towards and for your entire career on film.
Marc:That you were able to cover it all with this context that you created by going to other countries.
Marc:That's pretty true.
Marc:You're able to cover, you know, corporate crime, the corporate greed.
Marc:You're able to cover guns, healthcare, prison, race, education.
Marc:The banks.
Marc:Yeah, the banks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And just a sense of, oh, human dignity and human rights and union rights and employee rights.
Marc:It was like all of this was like your masterwork.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you chose to be more diplomatic in this one.
Guest:Well, again, I'm not being diplomatic.
Guest:I'm up to something here.
Guest:I'm up to something very subversive because I expect revolution to happen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I expect this film to play a role in that.
Guest:Well, I believe that there's so many things percolating just below the surface right now that people are so pissed off about.
Guest:And it's just waiting to happen.
Guest:And you're just hoping it happens in the right direction.
Guest:It will happen in the right direction.
Guest:It will happen.
Guest:This is the optimism.
Guest:Yes, this is well.
Guest:And I have historical backup.
Guest:There are examples of when when the people have risen up, it hasn't gone the right way.
Guest:You know, and we know that from the last century.
Guest:But I don't think that's what's going to happen now, because I think especially the younger generation.
Guest:that we've raised a bunch of kids that are not haters.
Guest:I mean, they don't, they don't, they don't hate somebody because they're in love with somebody from the same gender.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, they just don't, they're, they're more open-minded.
Guest:They're much more open-minded and the sort of the older generation that was full of this racism.
Guest:And I'm not saying there isn't racism.
Guest:We obviously have a lot of racism.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But still, I see it leaving.
Guest:It's going.
Guest:Well, yeah, sure.
Guest:I think that a lot of the type of- And the Republicans are essentially, that noise you hear from that crazy campaign that's going on, they sound like the dying dinosaurs must have sounded-
Guest:you know there's a set of weird noises they're emitting because they know they're done reptilian death they're over yeah no and i i mean statistically they're over yeah right now the statistic is just that blows my mind 81 and a half percent of the electorate in this country is either women
Guest:People of color or young people between the ages of 18 and 35.
Guest:That's 81 and a half percent of the country.
Guest:18 and a half percent of the country are white guys over the age of 35.
Guest:Yet to hear the Republicans talk, they think whenever they say the word America, that's the America that they're talking to.
Guest:That isn't America anymore.
Guest:Two months ago, first day of kindergarten in September, first time ever in our history where the majority of kindergartners were not white.
Guest:It has changed.
Guest:We live in a different America.
Marc:And there's also a contingent of that 18% that is very aware of that and very angry about us.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, did you go to college?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Where'd you go?
Guest:Boston University.
Guest:So you went to a private university.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But even then, it probably wasn't $70,000 a year.
Marc:Look, my parents had a little bread, and I didn't ask questions, Michael.
Okay.
Marc:Should I ask any now?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I mean, I did all right.
Marc:I mean, I don't know what the exact cost of it was, but, you know, I was afforded that luxury because, you know, my parents, my dad was a doctor and, you know, I didn't I didn't grow up in want of much.
Guest:OK, well, if you had gone to a SUNY school in New York, if you've gone to UC Berkeley or Santa Barbara or whatever.
Guest:you would have paid zero dollars uh ann arbor university of michigan i think i went a year and a half to the university of michigan in flint i think i might have paid five hundred dollars a semester so there was a time in this country where public uh education through college was doable with that's another thing you talk it was a value it was a value that that young people should be able to go
Guest:post-secondary education go to college and not end up at a debtor's prison at the age of 22 right that was a so that at 22 when you had your education you could then take the time to decide what you wanted to do with your life yeah maybe you didn't want to go to work right away
Guest:No problem.
Guest:Maybe you want to go backpacking around Europe.
Guest:No problem.
Guest:Maybe you want to fall in love.
Guest:Maybe any of a number of things.
Guest:Now you've got to get to work right away to pay off these student loans.
Marc:And it's not even clear that what you took from the college experience can help you at all in any way.
Marc:Everybody knows that.
Marc:Well, right.
Marc:But like when we were younger and even when I was in college, I mean, there was a strong liberal arts education available.
Marc:There was still the structure of the education was still to to sort of broaden your horizons on a lot of different levels, creativity and otherwise.
Marc:And you could choose those things.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:You could take poetry classes.
Guest:I mean, you could take things that they would say now is how's that going to get you a job?
Marc:It doesn't get you a job anyways.
Marc:That's a weird thing.
Marc:They're just shutting it all down to make these mills of, you know, to create drones that are really incapable of much.
Guest:And by creating drones, then we're not going to come up with the next invention, the next great cure for something we need a cure for or the next piece of great art.
Guest:I mean, and think about that, too.
Marc:And a lot of people don't think that's important.
Marc:Another interesting thing in the movie, that note where it was an aside, but you're walking through the maximum security prison.
Marc:Where was that, Norway?
Marc:In Norway, yeah.
Marc:And there's modern art on the walls.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was mind-blowing.
Marc:It was mind-blowing.
Marc:So, okay, let's go back to you and modern art.
Marc:So, you know, you killed Jesus with a gun as a playwright.
Guest:And won an award at the University of Michigan.
Marc:Yeah, it was gutsy.
Marc:What did your Catholic parents think of it?
Marc:Did they come to the show?
Guest:They didn't come to the show.
Guest:But I explained it enough to them to where they understood that I was trying to show the good Jesus and that the haters would not like it if he was walking amongst us today.
Guest:They got that.
Guest:How Catholic did you grow up?
Guest:Very Catholic.
Guest:My parents went to mass every single day of their lives.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Seven days a week.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I asked them at 14 years old if I could leave home and go to the seminary to be a priest.
Guest:And they did not want me to go.
Guest:But all you had to do was tell them that, you know, you had a calling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Even though I didn't believe in that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I wanted to, I was very, remember the time now we lived in, the Berrigan brothers.
Guest:These were two Catholic priests.
Guest:They were brothers.
Guest:What was the other one?
Guest:Phil and Dan Berrigan.
Guest:Phil and Dan.
Guest:Phil and Dan Berrigan.
Guest:I think Tom Berrigan is a writer.
Guest:Yes, or a member of KISS.
Guest:I'm not sure which.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Anyways, but they were the anti-war priests.
Guest:They were arrested for pouring their blood over draft records.
Guest:There was Cesar Chavez in the Farm Workers Movement, which was very Catholic-based, and the priests that were involved in that movement.
Guest:So I was very much drawn to how being a priest could actually do good in this manner.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And so I convinced him to let me leave home at 14, and I went away to the seminary.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:For how long?
Guest:Just one year.
Guest:The hormones kicked in.
Guest:Not cut out for it.
Guest:I read the rule book.
Guest:At that time, it just said no girls.
Guest:Of course, they actually meant no girls or boys.
Guest:But yeah, no, it's somewhere between the age of 14 and 15.
Guest:I thought, wow, there's another gender.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:And they...
Guest:look good yeah yeah you might you might have even been a year late on that one no i remember i remember going in and telling i remember i was in science class and the priest that was teaching science class and i remember saying to him you know you know so father lay uh so god created everything in six days and on the sixth day he created man you know like adam and made eve from adam with a rib yeah and um i don't know about that father because
Guest:It looks like to me God spent about 23 hours of that day on women and about an hour on us.
Guest:I mean, you know, they look at women.
Guest:They're like, you know, they score higher on the test.
Guest:They live three years longer.
Marc:He was thinking ahead.
Guest:He was thinking ahead.
Marc:He's like, we need the women to be ahead of the curve here.
Guest:Yeah, they live longer.
Guest:They have two X chromosomes.
Guest:We're missing one piece of that second X chromosome, which we call now a Y. But it's if it's missing that fourth quadrant.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's also something was in this film, that conversation with those female CEOs in Norway, you know, about, you know, the and that the former was the president.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The president of Iceland.
Marc:of iceland that's right it was in iceland right the women ceos about the first country to elect a woman president and also that the women salvaged the economy yes after the bankers destroyed it yes and that there's this interesting you know you know balance and respect and equality that that and and it's very clear to the men there too it seems that you know women are really should be running things
Guest:Well, isn't it odd that we don't have more women running things or that we prevent them from running things?
Guest:Because go back to when you were a child.
Guest:Who ran the house?
Guest:Well, that's always been this sort of weird.
Marc:Who took care of the checkbook?
Marc:The weird excuse of patriarchy is they're secretly running things.
Marc:We don't need to let them run things.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:What a bunch of bullshit.
Guest:It kind of.
Guest:Yeah, well, it's a way to then you don't have to pay them or you pay them very little.
Marc:And that was the way they respected them.
Guest:It was like, well, we know they're really wearing the pants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, in fact, actually, the women in Iceland, I show this in the film, went on strike in 1975.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it shut the country down.
Guest:And not just the country in terms of nothing worked, but they wouldn't work in the home either.
Guest:They went on this like women's strike.
Guest:And so, you know, nobody was making dinner.
Guest:Nobody was doing the laundry.
Guest:And it flipped the men out.
Guest:And actually, in a good way, sensitized them to the fact of, wow, if it weren't for women, things would be pretty bad.
Marc:And also, you shot in Tunisia, which had a similar situation, I think, after that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, the women there wanted an equal rights amendment to their constitution, like the women in this country did.
Guest:And this is a Muslim country.
Guest:It's a Muslim country.
Guest:The Islamic Party opposed it.
Guest:But the people of the country wanted it and they voted it in.
Guest:And now they have all these equal rights provisions in their Constitution for women that we don't have in our Constitution.
Marc:I found it fascinating because I'm guilty of what that Tunisian woman was, you know, talk in her appeal to the people of the United States that you gave a few people the opportunity, if you have anything to say.
Marc:yeah yeah you know that's a tough position for someone to be in right in a way but you know when she said you know we all know you once you get to know us right and you know i'm guilty of that and it is sort of fascinating to me and it's we i don't even know much about england you know what i mean but right there is a whole world out there you don't know something about the country next door to you no i mean canada or which one mexico yeah we're in california yeah yeah we're a few miles from mexico who's the president of mexico
Guest:that guy exactly and you're an educated person you went to boston you know who he is no i don't know who it is thank god all right i know no no no yeah i'm not yeah i'm not saying like i'm smarter than you i'm or now we know trudeau just got that's a name everybody knows in canada but the reason i know it is because his wife fucked mick jagger exactly but but the guy but who's been the who's been the uh the prime minister of canada for the last decade guy
Marc:no that was the bear of toronto name was stephen harper yeah he ran canada for the last bad guy yeah yeah yeah yeah they all hated him yeah no but i'm just saying we don't know anything about anybody in the world including the people who live next door to us in the last few years you know i've so thoroughly detached from the political circus that i you know i i'm hard pressed to know exactly what's going on now i've gotten i don't know that i've gotten cynical i've just gotten more self-involved in what way what do you mean by that
Marc:Well, I made a fairly clear decision to deal with my own kind of existential struggles emotionally and otherwise around my own rage and my own sort of perception of things and talk about that on a day-to-day basis.
Marc:I went in instead of out after Air America.
Marc:And a lot of people relate to it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I think this is because you've taken that path.
Guest:it's been so much more enlightening uh than when you were on air america and you had to play a role right on the liberal radio network no no no this your podcast and now your show on tv this is a very engaging it's like you can't stop listening you can't stop watching it because because you figured out in the way that you were saying about you know and i had to say to you know this is maybe i'm more angry than ever you know i look like i'm being diplomatic and
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:But I've just found a way to channel that rage in a way where I want I want things to happen in my lifetime.
Guest:I want them to happen for me, my neighbors, you, the people who live across the pond, whatever.
Guest:And I think you've done a similar thing and you may call it not political, but it might actually be more political because because humanizes and people start to appreciate each other.
Guest:yes and i think that that goes a long way to making the world a better place and i know you're not doing this for that ultra shade reason right but mark i mean just let's just can we do we have a split screen here on the radio no but i'm just saying put old mark yeah yeah up against current well yeah well i that's why i thought like you know i like i've started to soften a bit and and and be a little more like i don't think it's softening
Guest:but empathetic or an open-hearted why do we call that why is that soft well no no that's that's in a good way but yeah but no but being empathetic and going inward like that that is aggressive in a way because we're not supposed to do that we're supposed to keep up the armor and the shield and like keep working and keep working and get yours
Guest:And how come you're not doing 100 dates on the road this year?
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's like, no, I don't think so.
Guest:I've been saying that a lot lately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but I think that there's a positive effect to it.
Marc:But I think that's something you might have gotten before it became too filled with bile, that being part of a Catholic upbringing, if you frame it philosophically in the correct way, it is an empathetic disposition.
Marc:Like, profoundly.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, but also being brought up in that Catholic way.
Guest:I mean, you know, I mean, anybody listening to this who was raised Catholic, really super Catholic, big C Catholic.
Guest:Man, there's a lot going on.
Guest:yeah there's a hell there's a hell you know and you know what happens there there's a lot of burning and horrible things and you believe it and you believe that the hell you're experiencing now is somehow you deserve it you know you must have done something to bring this on to yourself right and all of that it's just um no i think it's uh but again you know it's funny when i have my tv show uh which one the awful truth both of them actually this happened on both shows on tv nation the awful truth
Guest:And we were in the writer's room one day, myself and the writers.
Guest:And I don't know how we got onto the topic of religion, but it was kind of like, you know, I mean, you kind of knew who the Jewish writers were and you knew a couple of the Catholics.
Guest:But we just asked everybody, like, how were you raised and what religion?
Guest:There wasn't a single Protestant in the room.
Guest:They were all raised Catholic or Jewish.
Guest:i thought okay there's like so then when i did my second tv show we did the same thing there was one protestant and the rest there was all it was like catholic was he the showrunner uh yes actually yes and his name was jay martell and he went on to be the showrunner for key and peel he's a very very funny guy that's so funny so the the and his dad was a preacher
Marc:The self-flagellation necessary to become a writer only exists in Jews and Catholics.
Guest:Yeah, what is that?
Guest:I think it's because I think we need to laugh.
Guest:I think it's the flip side of the coin.
Marc:The relief, yeah.
Marc:The relief because on that other side of the coin, we're actually quite angry.
Marc:Sure, and also it's a way to sort of maneuver through the world and have a voice.
Marc:And humor can be very powerful and cutting.
Marc:It can be disarming and it can be revelatory.
Marc:I mean, it's powerful.
Guest:And it also helps to deal with the personal pain.
Guest:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You don't want to sit too quiet for too long.
Guest:Well, I think especially if you're Irish Catholic, you have this choice of how do you... Because so much of the humor is dark humor.
Guest:You're really trying to alleviate a lot of the inner pain.
Guest:And that's what the alcohol is for.
Guest:So if you're not going to be a drunk...
Guest:Now the humor button really better kick in.
Marc:But you saw these Catholic priests who were active and revolutionary.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So you did a year at seminary.
Marc:You did a year and a half at University of Michigan.
Marc:It seems like you're good at taking about a year or so to figure shit out.
Marc:And then I need to move on.
Marc:When did things start to lock in in terms of kind of manifesting your revolutionary ideals?
Marc:Hmm.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Well, I put out my own newspaper for about 10 years in Flint.
Guest:It was called The Flint Voice.
Guest:Based on the New York's paper?
Guest:Yeah, kind of like the old Village Voice.
Guest:Weekly?
Marc:Politics and culture and that sort of thing.
Marc:Like James Ridgway stuff?
Marc:You were friends with James, right?
Guest:Yes, right, yes.
Guest:And I ran his column and Alex Coburn's column in my paper.
Guest:But it was after I they the people that own Mother Jones magazine in San Francisco saw my paper and asked me to come out and interview to be the editor of Mother Jones.
Guest:And so I went out there and they offered me the job and I had to decide whether or not to close up my life in Flint and move to San Francisco.
Marc:Did you ever do any radio?
Guest:and i had my own radio show in flint it was radio free flint what was that it was a it was a weekly one hour show something like this uh-huh uh where and but it had a lot of it had it had humor but there were interviews and uh-huh you know uh on you know the the on the week of christmas we'd have drunk santa come in and little kids would actually call up
Guest:live thinking they're talking to Santa was this a late night show no it was not it was on Sunday morning on a rock station you know that rock block before noon on Sundays where they would have to have community programming that was you
Guest:it was me oh how long did you do that for it oh i did that for almost 10 years really yeah yeah yeah it was a lot of fun is that where you met james no i i met him because he called me up and he said i'm gonna make a documentary film i have this buddy of mine his name is kevin rafferty in michigan because there was the the ku Klux Klan and the neo-nazis were kind of coming back to life was that blood in the face blood in the face oh that that fucking movie fuck me
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they said, do you know anything about these guys here in Michigan?
Guest:I said, oh yeah, I know all about them.
Guest:Would you help us?
Guest:And so, yeah, sure.
Guest:So I got them into some Klan rallies and some neo-Nazi stuff.
Guest:How'd you know them?
Guest:I had had them on my radio show.
Guest:So you would engage these guys?
Guest:oh of course they're scary guys no i go on bill o'reilly yeah right i mean i go on hannity yeah i mean not that they're nazis or clan right i don't don't take that the wrong way but i'm just saying i yes i'm not afraid of the so-called uh enemy or somebody has a different opinion than i have uh but these but these guys are really crazy yeah and uh so i i we got there to the the big clan weekend it was like a convention of clan um and um um
Guest:And they, the Rafferty and Ridgeway were, they did not want to be on camera.
Guest:They thought after this film comes out, we're dead.
Guest:And they said to me, would you ask some questions on camera?
Guest:Like just whatever comes to your head.
Guest:I said, yeah, sure.
Guest:I'm not afraid of these guys.
Guest:And that was my first time ever of asking questions on a camera.
Guest:And a year later, I decided to make my own film, and I called up Rafferty, Kevin Rafferty and Ridgeway, and I said, hey, can you guys help me out and teach me how to make a movie?
Guest:And Kevin Rafferty said he'd made a film called The Atomic Cafe.
Guest:I remember that movie.
Marc:That was all the old clips and the- Duck and Cover.
Marc:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He said, I'll come back to Flint and I'll spend a week and I'll shoot for you and I'll teach you how to use the camera and the machine and the sound.
Marc:This is for Roger and me?
Guest:For Roger and me.
Guest:And I knew nothing.
Guest:And he was my film school.
Guest:And the most amazing guy taught me how to edit then down in the village when I was done shooting the film.
Guest:And then I end up in Washington, D.C.
Guest:because I had to go get a job, and I'm cutting my movie, Roger Me, and it's Inauguration Day for the first Bush in January of 89.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said to the editors, hey, I've never seen Inauguration.
Guest:You want to go down?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's cold usually.
Guest:It was very cold.
Guest:We went down.
Guest:There's nobody there, though, back in those days at the inauguration.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was like the mall was empty.
Guest:I mean, it was crowded up by the Capitol steps.
Guest:But it didn't go back like Obama's thing for like three miles.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:So we got kind of close.
Guest:And yet there were TV screens.
Guest:There were big screens that were up.
Guest:And I said to the editors, oh, my God, there's Kevin Rafferty.
Guest:He's up there.
Guest:And we thought he was shooting a documentary of the inauguration.
Guest:I called him a couple days later.
Guest:I said, Kevin, I was at the inauguration of Bush.
Guest:I could have sworn you were on the stage.
Guest:And long pause, he goes, yeah, that was me.
Guest:I said, wow.
Guest:So were you making a movie or no?
Guest:And he's like taking a big drag off a cigarette.
Guest:He goes, no, I wasn't making a movie.
Guest:I said, well, what were you doing up there?
Guest:Another drag.
Guest:my uh my uncle is the um uh president of the united states what i've known this guy for like now two or three years i said you've got to be kidding me he goes no my mother and barbara bush are sisters oh
Guest:I said, I cannot, how come you never said this?
Guest:How come you never mentioned this?
Guest:He goes, because of the very way you're reacting right now.
Guest:Oh my God, it was so, I couldn't believe that my film school was a member of the Bush family.
Guest:Like a close member.
Guest:you get a close member cousin so when i get the film done and and uh bush george for the first yeah um once they're having a family reunion at camp david orders a print from warner brothers to be sent of roger and me to camp david the show for because the because kevin helped he shot the film right so so it's like our nephew did a thing kev kev our nephew let's let's uh
Guest:So I tried to go, but I couldn't... Oh, that would have been a good screening.
Guest:But I said to him afterwards, I said, so what happened in there in the projectionist?
Guest:He was like, well, it was pretty quiet during the movie.
Guest:Except for one.
Guest:Except he said for one of his cousins laughed hysterically throughout the whole movie.
Guest:I said, oh, that's good.
Guest:Good, good, good.
Guest:He goes, no, no, no, no.
Guest:He's got a little...
Guest:problem is this cousin named George.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:He got a kick out of it, huh?
Guest:That's the first time I heard of George W. Bush was, you know, from whatever high he was on, laughing hysterically throughout my movie at Camp David.
Guest:That is a great story.
Guest:Is that wild?
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That guy who was laughing at your first movie would become one of your mortal enemies.
Marc:How small is the world?
Guest:Small world.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:No, if I wasn't for the Bush family, I might not even be a filmmaker.
Guest:That's why I've always spoken well of them.
Guest:So they're not my mortal enemies.
Guest:So you took the job at Mother Jones after Roger and me?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That's how I ended up making the film because I went out there and four months later I'm fired at political disagreements with the owner of the magazine.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Uh, he wanted to, uh, run this story by this guy, uh, about, uh, the Sandinistas and Nicaragua weren't all that they were cracked up to be.
Guest:And, and I didn't feel that way.
Guest:And there, they, he didn't provide the evidence that I required.
Guest:Uh, didn't like that.
Guest:I put an auto worker on the cover and gave the guy a monthly column.
Guest:You know, this is, I mean, Mother Jones, like a lot of stuff on the left was not for working class people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was trying to change the magazine, I think more into a working class left liberal magazine.
Guest:And that's not the direction they wanted to go.
Guest:How do you feel about the left in general?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're fired.
Marc:But how do you feel about the left in general along those lines, along class lines and along, you know, what what activism really means and what what is it going to take?
Marc:What is it going to take for the money left to to to sort of, you know, integrate and activate and be part of an actual left?
Oh.
Guest:Is that something you think about?
Guest:I think about it all the time because, well, I'm out here in LA right now.
Guest:And so I'm going around, I'm showing my movie to people and we're talking about it, but it's- In home theaters.
Guest:In home theaters and in other theaters here.
Guest:And it's very interesting.
Guest:I always notice this, especially coming from New York.
Guest:I can spend two or three days here and never encounter in this, especially in this business, African-Americans.
Guest:The only African Americans I will encounter in L.A.
Guest:will be either picking me up at the airport or serving me something, you know, at a restaurant.
Marc:You didn't go to Tyler Perry's house?
Guest:No, I've not been there.
Guest:No, but it's very... Yes, yes.
Guest:You can't have that experience in New York.
Guest:That's right, that's true.
Guest:Every day is with everybody.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:It's a beautiful thing about New York.
Guest:You know, I live on a street that have multi-million dollar apartments, and...
Guest:And in the building next to mine, there's rent-controlled apartments in there for $800 or $900 a month, a few that are left.
Guest:But even that, I don't want to say it's affordable, but if you know how to work it, you can live...
Marc:there i've noticed that yeah new york is the tone of the actual island of manhattan is definitely changing that has really changed i mean you used to really feel like you know everybody's on the same page here you know no no it doesn't feel like that anymore no it doesn't even like i mean i live in a nice apartment building but when i moved in there when i first moved in there
Guest:There were two or three guys from Saturday Night Live that lived there.
Guest:The playwright that wrote M. Butterfly lived there.
Guest:Harvey Fierstein lived there.
Guest:Two New York Rangers lived there.
Guest:I mean, in terms of the people that had some money and could afford to live on the Upper West Side, but they were still creative people.
Guest:My building now is a lot, mostly, I would say, majority Wall Street or
Guest:or foreign owners or investors um and i'm i'm like i i stick out like such a sore thumb there and and i'm you're like living in the the enemy camp i know but i it's like but i i bought this place like you know 25 years ago so like the mortgage i got the mortgage paid off finally and it's like i don't want to now i don't want to leave because i you know like to get something now would be like outrageous how do you stifle yourself walking past your neighbor's
Guest:I actually have that thought in my head, stifle, stifle, stifle.
Guest:Now, they're probably listening to this, and I try to treat everybody the same, but actually, it sounds like I pity them because they're bankers, but I actually, I guess I do in some ways because they're not doing good for the world.
Guest:They've made the world, they've made this country a worse place.
Guest:And if I just often think, God, if I had like an hour with them.
Guest:You could talk them out of it?
Guest:I could talk them out of some of it, maybe.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Well, have you tried?
Marc:Maybe you should have a little meeting.
Guest:No, I have tried.
Marc:Put some posters up.
Marc:Hey, who wants to talk about the truth?
Guest:I have tried.
Guest:And I try.
Guest:And I'll tell you something I've done recently.
Guest:I did this a while back.
Guest:I was walking out of a movie theater.
Guest:And this was in Florida.
Guest:And I walked by a guy.
Guest:And he just goes, asshole.
Guest:To you?
Guest:Yeah, to me.
Guest:And I stopped and I turned around and I said, hey, you can't call me that.
Guest:Come back here.
Guest:And the friend I'm with, she's like, oh, God, what are you doing?
Guest:I said, no, no, it's okay.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:The guy comes back, you know, and we don't get into a fight.
Guest:And he goes, because I think you're an asshole.
Guest:I said, you don't even know me.
Guest:How can you even say something like that?
Guest:I mean, maybe I am, but wouldn't you want to, like, at least know something?
Guest:I know everything about you.
Guest:I said, you haven't seen a single one of my movies.
Guest:and he had an honest moment and he said you're goddamn right i haven't i said well then how can you make up your mind like this without i said listen go home seriously go on netflix go on itunes rent one of them i can i i don't get any more money from these films i i don't have a right a back end yeah so i don't you're not giving me any money but for 2.99
Guest:watch any of them.
Guest:And I swear to God, at the end of the movie, you may not agree with me politically, but you will come to, I think, three conclusions.
Guest:Number one, I love this country.
Guest:Number two, I have a heart.
Guest:I care about what's going on, and I care about other people.
Guest:And number three, I swear to God, you're going to laugh a half a dozen times in the movie.
Guest:Some of it is a comedy.
Guest:And what did he say?
Guest:And he said, well, you know, I already know what you're going to say.
Guest:I said, no, you don't.
Guest:You honestly don't.
Guest:You've been told this by Fox News or by Rush Limbaugh or whatever.
Guest:And they're in trouble once you watch one of my movies because you're going to go, they lied to me.
Guest:I mean, I don't agree with Mike politically, but he clearly loves this country, and he's funny, and he gives a shit.
Marc:Well, how has that burden for you been to sort of be- He shook my hand.
Marc:He did.
Marc:He said, I'll do it.
Guest:Well, you treated him with respect.
Guest:Because I do respect him.
Guest:I do.
Guest:Even calling me an asshole, I think I just my first I'm not mad.
Guest:I just think he's been misled.
Guest:And and that if he really knew me, he wouldn't think.
Marc:But how do you how do you shoulder that burden of knowing that that's true?
Marc:Because those guys, a lot of those guys, you could actually blow at least part of their mind and you could actually teach them things they didn't know at all, show them some facts and some truths that elude them because they get their anger buzz from the severely narrow ideology of people that aren't even thinking in their interest.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But how do you live with that?
Guest:I mean, how do I handle that?
Marc:Well, I mean, I guess handle it, but I mean- You mean handle the hate or the- There's a hate, but just being a demagogue of being characterized as this evil demagogue of the left.
Marc:I mean, because I think this new movie appeals to a broader spectrum of Americans.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there's still going to be those guys.
Marc:You're like, not that guy.
Guest:Yes.
Yes.
Guest:I can't do anything about the 20% that are over on the far, far right.
Guest:They're lost souls.
Guest:I feel bad about that.
Guest:They're my fellow Americans.
Guest:I care about them.
Guest:And what I always say to them is that I'm going to keep fighting for the things I believe in.
Guest:And when we succeed at getting true universal health care, when we succeed at having a bullet train that can get from L.A.
Guest:to New York in nine hours...
Guest:Um, I'm going to let you ride that train too.
Guest:And I'm going to let you have the free healthcare too, because I want you to participate in all these things.
Guest:You know, I'm working on this for everybody, not just myself and my other liberal little do-gooder friends.
Guest:I am working on these things for all of us.
Guest:And, and I, you know, I've actually thought about either making a film or writing a book just for those guys, like, and, and, and also for those bankers that live in my building and say to them, I want to explain to you why, um,
Guest:These things that I talk about in this current film in terms of the 36-hour work week, the universal health care, a better justice system, not imprisoning people who use marijuana and other drugs.
Guest:And education, the sort of education system.
Guest:The premium of a good education.
Guest:I want to show you, the conservative, why this is good for you.
Guest:I want you to agree with this entirely.
Guest:Not because of, again, I don't want you to become a bleeding heart liberal.
Guest:Stay the way you are.
Guest:But I want to show you how you will live in a safer neighborhood if we change how we do things.
Guest:That you will have better employees, smarter employees, if we make our education system different.
Guest:That you will have healthier employees and they will be more productive if they have a paid vacation, if they have paid maternity leave.
Guest:I think that there's a way to explain this if I make it about them.
Guest:Again, go to the me that they so believe in.
Guest:How does this benefit me?
Guest:How can I make a bigger profit with my business?
Guest:Actually, you can make a great profit.
Guest:There is a reason the French are more productive than we are.
Guest:I mean, that's a crazy thought, isn't it?
Guest:That the French are more productive, work less hours, produce more.
Guest:How can that be?
Guest:I'd like to show them how that if we were more like the French, they would be even richer than they are now.
Marc:But what I always found fascinating when I was doing more political talk was just the power.
Marc:of the hypnotic repetition machine, not just the echo chamber, but the amount of money that goes in to sort of mining and exploiting a diminished working class's anger and directing it to really the wrong direction and against their personal economic interests, self-interest.
Marc:It's sort of fascinating to me that there are people that hang on to a sense of pride that is...
Marc:it's sort of shallow and uninformed at this point.
Guest:But I think that's changing too.
Guest:I think you're right.
Guest:We've had Barack Obama elected twice.
Guest:And I mean, that's an incredible thing.
Guest:A man whose middle name is Hussein gets elected by a majority of Americans twice.
Guest:And I mean, we still have so much racism in this country.
Guest:I think millions of people actually were able to set aside their personal prejudices.
Marc:to vote for him because they knew that was a better way to go than the last eight years they had on any a right and even if they're disappointed for whatever fucking reason right it was like when i talked to him in here you know he talked about you know any incremental progress right within democracy is good that's correct
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And a lot of times it's very incremental, but that's the nature of it.
Marc:And I was talking to Chris Hayes just about stuff like gay marriage.
Marc:All the people that had old ideas about those type of relationships who fought it, you know, tooth and nail, you know, in their living rooms, you know, give them a couple of years to be like, that's just the way it is now, I guess.
Marc:The hate will be gone.
Marc:The hate will be gone.
Marc:And the acceptance of the reality of democracy working.
Marc:That's correct.
Marc:Will take hold.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's the way it works here.
Guest:That's the way it works.
Guest:And that's because I think human beings at their core, not everyone, but most are good.
Guest:I do too.
Guest:They know good and they know right from wrong.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And it doesn't become about Democrat versus Republican or whatever.
Guest:It's about, you know, what's the common sense thing to do here?
Guest:What's the fair way to treat people?
Guest:And I believe most Americans eventually get to that place.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Not all.
Marc:There's a lot of things that are keeping a lot of Americans off balance.
Guest:on a day-to-day basis yes fear yes fear that how many what's the percentage of the country that lives from paycheck to paycheck i mean it's it's high it's it's really the middle class is is less and less uh people aren't able to do the things they want to do they don't they don't know you know you can't get your student loan paid off down till you're in your 40s um i mean it's it's it yes people live look i know people my age that all of a sudden like can't get a job
Marc:and can't get a job and they can't get they can't get a job right i mean i have people in my family you know who had jobs and then that you know something goes wrong and they struggle and you know these guys are in their 40s and 50s and they're they're able and they're ready can't fucking get work yeah it's it's heartbreaking because there's nothing to fall back on for so many people there's just nothing to fall back on right and so that will do a number on you oh yeah man someone's got to pay
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's hard not to think that way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so who has to pay for their situation is not the system or the people that have put them in that situation.
Guest:Their family.
Guest:The family.
Guest:The neighbor.
Guest:The neighbor.
Guest:The old boss.
Guest:The Mexican.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The whatever.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I think that's right.
Guest:I'm going to build a wall.
Guest:You know, it's like that, you know, Trump really appeals to this sort of that kind of place.
Marc:It's quite a show and it's quite a show in a lot of levels.
Marc:You know, like, you know, from from where I'm sitting, that show is is really showing, you know, not so much what leadership is in any way, but the sort of like just, you know, deep.
Marc:anger and frustration and sadness and and and just fear of of of all of it that that'll that whoever is energized by that is experiencing right but again remember 81 and a half percent yeah i'm not freaking out yeah our women yeah they're not the angry white guy yeah women they're people of color
Guest:And they're young people.
Guest:And that's what's going to save us.
Marc:Well, from, you know, when looking at the whole oeuvre of your work, if that's the word, you know, going from, you know, all the movies, all the way from Roger and Me and Bowling for Columbine, Fahrenheit 9-11, Sitco.
Marc:Now, can you cite...
Marc:You know, outside of what we're talking about now in the electorate changes and some of this stuff, you know, outside, it seems to me that around social issues, we've made some progress.
Marc:Health care, a little progress.
Marc:You know, education, not so much.
Marc:Race, not so much, a little progress.
Marc:A little.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But corporate occupation of the government and corporate apologists and corporate malfeasance runs rampant still.
Guest:And that seems to be the toughest one.
Guest:And that's the toughest one.
Guest:And that is what if we are destroyed, it'll be because of that, because the democracy will no longer be about one person, one vote.
Guest:You and I and everybody else having an equal say in what's going on, because we all know now that the corporations, the rich, the 1%, now the 0.1%.
Guest:It's not the 1% anymore.
Guest:It's the 0.1%.
Guest:They call all the shots.
Guest:They call all the shots with the money they have.
Guest:They buy the laws.
Guest:They buy the lawmakers.
Guest:And if we don't get a handle on that,
Marc:uh that will that will be our our doom what do you think it will take see what like i i know that when when occupy wall street happened that you were you know yeah you're obviously in support of that and it's exciting and it might have made some metaphorical difference i don't know that oh absolutely it changed the thinking it
Guest:created the idea of the 99 yeah don't have the power the one percent have the power that occupy wall street it i mean obama was talking was he took the language of occupy wall street and when he ran for yeah in 20 uh in 2012 mitt romney lost in part because of that that tape that the bartender made of him talking about the 47 the takers that don't contribute anything i mean i mean the
Guest:I think that had an enormous impact on people, far larger than the movement itself wasn't necessarily meant to last, but everybody that felt something about it.
Guest:I mean, I saw a poll a couple weeks ago.
Guest:They asked Democrats, your view of capitalism, your view of socialism, which one do you feel...
Guest:46% said they had a favorable view of socialism.
Guest:These are just Democrats, mainstream Democrats.
Guest:46% said they had a positive view of socialism.
Guest:37% said they had a positive view of capitalism.
Guest:That's a transitional moment where that even mainstream regular people realize that the so-called capitalist system that has been operating is not in their best interest.
Marc:I never understood in having conversations about that when I did have conversations about that was this idea of a free market and things finding its level through privatization.
Marc:This great vision of a free market and privatization will provide the best possible education, product, whatever it is.
Marc:what no one ever accounted for was fucking pathological greed that there's no way there's no way a free market can work because of the fucking greed right if they're they're gonna undercut whatever they can undercut to save fucking money and make more money so i just know and once you take the regulation out you're fucked and part of that is human nature too yeah i mean it's like we do need regulation of course we are told we have to put clothes on when we leave the house yeah
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Good not to masturbate in public.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But Michael, so let's talk about this.
Marc:You're more angry than ever, yet you were conscious and you had an agenda in approaching this movie, which I tend to think like I'm going to support my own intuition about it, was that you were dealing with people in other countries and you were excited about it and you were respectful about it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But I thought, before we do that real quick, I thought one of the best messages of the movie was this focus on the idea of human dignity.
Marc:Like, that really fucking hit home for me for some reason.
Marc:Just, you know, the montage where you were able to cover, you know, prisons and those treatments, the treatment of women, the treatment of just children, and the lack of education, school lunches, that the fundamental message of the movie was- Human dignity.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:right did you feel that yeah oh my god every country we go to the fact that they that i mean they're feeding in france the lunch hour was that day we were there lamb skewers over couscous you know with a with a uh some kind of uh shrimp stew i mean stuff that kids would never see here but they think it's important it's their children they don't want to poison them you know or that they're the the in finland
Guest:Uh, the, the, the hour long class is actually 45 minutes.
Guest:And then after every class, there's 15 minutes of recess every class because the principal says there in the film, these kids have to play and they, they got rid of homework.
Guest:I mean, they essentially, nobody has more than an hour of homework, uh, in Finland, uh, every night.
Guest:because they want the kids to be out there socializing, learning, growing.
Marc:And also the pace of the education and the engagement with the teachers and the students must be significantly different to sort of have that kind of confidence that they are still learning without taking that.
Guest:But this issue of human dignity, it's their children.
Guest:The fact that if you put someone in prison, you have a responsibility to treat them right.
Guest:The fact that Portugal hasn't arrested a single person for using drugs in 15 years, not one drug arrest.
Guest:in this country, and they have the statistics to show that drug use has gone down, and crime, drug-related crime has gone down.
Guest:And that's with legal drugs.
Guest:Yes, well, it's not legal, it's decriminalized.
Marc:Right, that's what I mean, yeah.
Marc:Well, that was also, you know, you were able to put that other thing into about, you know, the...
Marc:the maintenance of institutionalized racism through control of the drug trade in urban communities.
Marc:You were really able to wedge very aggressively and very poignant and disturbing bits of information into this narrative that is a lot more easy to take than usual from you.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, you know, here we are in Norway, and then we're dealing with this prison system that is working and dignified, and then all it takes is two cuts to footage from American prisons where you're like, holy shit.
Marc:And then the drug thing, too, with the Nixon and the civil rights and into the escalation of the prison industrial complex.
Guest:All I can say, because you keep coming back to this question, is...
Guest:Maybe I, like all artists, I try to do better each time, and I try to be a better filmmaker.
Guest:And I've had many people have said, and they've written already about this film, that this is my best film.
Guest:I don't know if I would say that, because I love all my children equally.
Guest:But there is a sense that this film is revolutionary in that sense that it could reach...
Guest:a lot of people not on a political basis but on a human level and that it could affect change uh if we started to consider some of the things i'm offering and i'm offering them up in a kind and gentle way i do i do but i'm doing that for a reason because i don't what does it what does it do how does it get us anywhere if i'm just if i'm just the old mark maron
Guest:All right.
Guest:Good impression.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:No, but right.
Guest:I mean, I'm just, we haven't followed a similar path, but we are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, and I just, I mean, my dad died last year and.
Guest:How old was he?
Guest:It was almost 93.
Guest:Good run.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:Just died of old age and.
Guest:uh it was um you know and he was a great guy and how do you feel about you and your work oh he loved it he loved all of it yeah he was again that old irish catholic democrat kennedy roosevelt and all that you know world war ii veteran was in all those horrible battles in the south pacific really as a marine in the first marine division and just survived it you know that that those first 30 minutes of saving private ryan where they come in in the amphibious uh he was in that one
Guest:He was in all of those in the South Pacific.
Guest:No, not on D-Day.
Guest:That was D-Day.
Guest:If you were in the South Pacific, that was every month.
Guest:I mean, every one of those little islands, they'd have to go in and they would get mowed down and everybody's dying around you.
Guest:I don't know how the hell he and the others came out of that.
Guest:uh and he was such a good and gentle soul and uh that was the other thing you got in the movie at the beginning the opening of the movie yeah was we haven't won a war we haven't won a war since my dad and the other dads won that one because we really haven't let's just be honest korea was not a win the first the gulf war yeah well saddam stayed in power you know he wasn't that how do you call that a win when hitler or whoever that was that was i think a slap on the wrist
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's just that none of these are outright wins since WW2.
Marc:There's a weird, like, even when you talk about this, and I remember feeling this when I was at Air America.
Marc:I'm like, oh, boy, there's going to be all kinds of fucking backlash.
Marc:There's going to be a backlash, a backwash.
Guest:There's going to be hell to pay for this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We don't want to think about it.
Guest:I mean, seriously, you and I. That's enforced.
Marc:You know, like that's what I. It is enforced.
Marc:Because I keep trying to think about, like, who's going to get angry at listening to this right now?
Marc:And why are they going to get angry?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, where does that come from?
Marc:Because, like, even in the film, you pay respect to to service people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, you're empathetic to their plight.
Marc:And the job of that, since it's not really a national defense-driven armed forces, it's a job that people choose.
Marc:And yet someone's going to hear you on here and go like, oh!
Guest:How does he blame us?
Guest:Because we invaded these countries and we took out... Destabilized them.
Guest:We destabilized them.
Guest:They were bad guys, but they had their way of maintaining order.
Guest:Not the way we would like to run it, but it's not our frigging country.
Guest:Okay, so kill Saddam, remove the Taliban, kill Gaddafi, and look what we've got.
Guest:More terrorists.
Guest:More terrorists.
Guest:This is hell to pay for.
Guest:We didn't know what the hell we were doing.
Guest:We didn't know what we were, how we were mucking this up for us to like, who the hell do we think we are?
Guest:We don't even, we didn't even, Bush didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
Guest:And we go in there like ignoramuses.
Guest:We give up the lives of good people.
Guest:We put our country so far in debt with that war.
Guest:We were spending $4 billion a week at one point between Afghanistan and Iraq.
Guest:And, you know, I mean, yes, some people might listen to this and go, you know, oh, he's anti-American.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I think the people that put us in this shitty place are anti-American.
Guest:I think if you supported that war and if you supported going in there and destroying the infrastructure of that country, it's made us less safe.
Guest:You've made me as an American less safe.
Guest:And I consider what you did against America and against the world.
Marc:So what now with this film, the new one that we mentioned, it's a comedy.
Marc:Yes, it's always a little comedy in there.
Marc:The whole conceit is a comedy, but it's powerful.
Marc:Now, your hope for it is that as many people as possible will see it.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:Yes, that is my goal.
Guest:Yes, I want as many people as possible to see it.
Marc:And what do you think is going to happen?
Marc:When you talked earlier about a revolution in America, how do you think that happens?
Marc:What do you think happens?
Marc:What's going to happen in your mind?
Marc:What do you hope to happen?
Guest:I hope that students will start debt strikes, stop paying the student loans,
Guest:Former students and current students need to protest on campus to get the college at an affordable level.
Guest:We were three states short of passing the Equal Rights Amendment back in the 70s.
Guest:We only need three more states to pass it.
Guest:of the 15 remaining that haven't passed it.
Guest:We just need three more.
Guest:Illinois was one of the states that didn't pass it.
Guest:We can get those three states.
Guest:We can have an Equal Rights Amendment for women.
Guest:Women should be paid the same as men.
Guest:They're doing the same job.
Guest:They should be paid the same.
Guest:That's a basic thing.
Guest:There's some really simple things.
Guest:You get pregnant, there should be a maternity leave.
Guest:Not a few weeks off, but literally a few months off, and you're paid.
Guest:You get paid for this time.
Guest:I mean, I think there's some things like that that can happen.
Guest:I think that people are ready to look at all.
Guest:I mean, look at the states that are most of the states, not Ohio, but most of the states are decriminalizing or legalizing marijuana.
Guest:They don't think people should be locked up for this.
Guest:Obama started to let people out of the federal prisons.
Guest:He's put his toe in the water on that.
Guest:Six thousand got released in the past month.
Guest:Hopefully he'll do more of that before he's out of office.
Marc:Well, you did good with this movie, man, and I'm glad you came by.
Marc:It's been a long time since I saw you.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It has been a while.
Guest:I'm really happy for you.
Guest:I love your podcast.
Guest:I love the fact that you're on TV.
Guest:Just being me.
Guest:Just being you.
Guest:That guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't that funny, though?
Guest:Because, I mean, I don't know you that well, but essentially that is you.
Marc:I think it's a little limited to a little more cranky.
Marc:Well, yeah, it's not a documentary.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:But that's okay because you let your inner crank come out in a productive way and it's entertaining.
Marc:I've gotten a lot of really amazing things have happened because of this.
Marc:because of doing this thing in this garage.
Marc:But really, along the lines of what we were talking about, the most gratifying thing about it is the feedback from people who are troubled and who feel alone in the world or sad or have a drinking problem or whose depression I ease or who feel less alone.
Marc:And I get that stuff every day, and I never thought that would ever happen.
Marc:And, and just, you know, just to, to have that, to, to feel that, you know, people are like, you know, your conversations about whatever, because they're human and candid and, and explore struggle with all different types of people, uh, it really make it easier for me to, to see my own issues and to function better in life.
Guest:Well, that's a great way to put, when I, when I listen to you and I see you, I think, I think it's good.
Guest:It's good for people to feel that they're not crazy.
Guest:They see you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They hear you.
Yeah.
Guest:Not crazy.
Guest:I'm not crazy.
Marc:That's a good thing.
Marc:That is a good thing.
Guest:Take that as a compliment.
Marc:That is a good thing.
Marc:And I think in terms of what you're doing, I think it's sort of a different approach to it, but you're enabling people who I think are crazy to see that they might be misguided.
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Wouldn't that be interesting if that happened as a result of this film?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:You just got to get more people calling you an asshole on the street and maybe give them the money to rent it on Netflix.
Guest:If I could talk to every Fox News watcher who feels that way about me one by one, I think there would be success with a number of them.
Guest:They may not agree with me.
Guest:Why don't you make that movie?
Guest:i'm just going just just just go just going door to door just go door to door in red states yeah hey red neighborhood think of me yeah but why yeah can we talk for you got an hour maybe and then tomorrow i'll come back with a couple films yeah and i could yes i could watch my films with them yeah
Guest:See, you're laughing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Did you know that?
Guest:Right.
Guest:What I just said there?
Guest:See, I'm a gun owner.
Marc:You can still be a gun owner.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:You know what the biggest problem is, Michael, is that in a world of the internet where people can cherry pick the information that suits their ideology, they can easily say, like, that guy's making that up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's the biggest problem.
Marc:It's like, I've got my truth.
Marc:I did a search for it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:right that and that that it's it's hard one thing i do to help them and i've done this for my last three or four movies i i put up on my website when the movie comes out all the factual backup and i have a rule that it can't be factual backup from the nation or other lefty magazines right so i put an annotated the every fact in the film
Guest:here's the backup for it and it's from a non-partisan traditional mainstream source and you can read this and see for yourself that they actually have a lower crime rate in norway because they don't lock people up forever there's a point where you over uh incarcerate and you make your society less safe make monsters you make monsters out of them they come out of the we have an 80 recidivism rate in this country they have a 20 recidivism rate in norway
Guest:just out of your own selfish self-interest to live in a safe neighborhood wouldn't you want to at least explore how they're doing that yeah and just and also that whole other thing that you kind of you went through pretty quickly was you know the prison industrial complex and and its manufacturing arm is is is disturbing it's disturbing it needs its own movie yeah the number of companies that use prison labor slave labor to make their products
Guest:yeah it's heavy shit but like it's great to see you hey thank you for coming thank you for having me here mark it's been great uh in this garage and and hopefully when we walk out the door the manson cult won't be there they're not here hollywood they're not here i mean i'm in the wrong hills if anyone comes to hurt us they followed you here
Guest:Then if this is Mark's last podcast, I just want to say to all his fans, I'm terribly sorry about this.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I meant well.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Bye.
Guest:Good night.
Marc:See?
Marc:Just a guy trying to fucking help out to make it a better place.
Marc:That's what we all want.
Marc:Just some of us have different ideas of how to do that.
Marc:I'm going to play some fucking guitar.
Guest:Go Merlin!