Episode 661 - Adam Resnick
Marc:all right let's do this how are you folks how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters welcome to the show this is wtf i am mark maron how is everyone was it the first night of hanukkah last night did i fuck that up again am i am i missing it
Marc:Could someone check for me, please?
Marc:Is today the second night of Hanukkah?
Marc:Do I have to pull out my menorah and my leftover candles from the last 10 years of not finishing the Hanukkah rituals alone in my house?
Marc:Do I have a yarmulke?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Do I have a kippah?
Marc:I do.
Marc:Do I have what you Gentiles would call the hat that one wears, the little skullcap thingy?
Marc:The disc, the embroidered cloth circle that Jews wear on their heads.
Marc:Yes, I have one.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Do any of you know the sort of cockfighting of kippahs that goes on in Jewish communities?
Marc:The kippah talis cockfight that happens in synagogues across the country.
Marc:Oh, look who went to Israel last year.
Marc:Look at that fancy yarmulke.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Oh, where'd he get that?
Marc:Look at that colorful tallis.
Marc:I didn't even know you had options with colors.
Marc:I thought they had to be just black and white fabric.
Marc:That's got all kinds of colors and fancy embroidery.
Marc:Ooh, nice key pod.
Marc:That's a, is that a Sephardic key pod?
Marc:Look at all the colors.
Marc:Hey, look at that.
Marc:Look at that Grateful Dead themed yarmulke that guy's wearing.
Marc:How many of you know that?
Marc:I've still got yarmulkes from bar mitzvahs that I stole them from.
Marc:That's how you know you're part of a Jewish family is when you look on the inside of your yarmulke and it says to honor the bar mitzvah, to honor the wedding, to honor the funeral of so-and-so Jewish person.
Marc:I have one.
Marc:I did not light the candles last night.
Marc:If it was indeed the first day of Hanukkah, I will try to light them.
Marc:But it's a you know, it's emotional, man.
Marc:It's emotional.
Marc:Happy Hanukkah to you, Jewish people or those of you who are involved with Jews.
Marc:Happy Hanukkah.
Marc:I'll write him.
Marc:I'll write him maybe at least once.
Marc:At least once I'll write him.
Marc:Today on the show, the wonderful Adam Resnick.
Marc:He's got a book out.
Marc:His book is pretty fucking funny, man.
Marc:The book is called Will Not Attend, Lively Stories of Detachment and Isolation.
Marc:It's available now wherever you get books.
Marc:But more importantly, if you're tuning in and you're like, who the hell is Adam Resnick?
Marc:He was a writer for Letterman.
Marc:He wrote, you know,
Marc:He was on Larry Sanders, Get a Life, Cabin Boy, Death to Smoochie.
Marc:We'll talk about those things because I know some of you have the reaction of like, really?
Marc:Yeah, well, there are good stories behind that.
Marc:And he's definitely a unique person.
Marc:And I love talking to him.
Marc:So that's going to happen shortly.
Marc:Happy Hanukkah.
Marc:How do you spell it?
Marc:Don't know.
Marc:A lot of options.
Marc:A lot of options.
Marc:Hey, whoever watched my special last night, or I'm sorry, on Friday night, thank you.
Marc:Thank you for watching on Epix.
Marc:I don't know where else you can watch it right now.
Marc:I believe you can go to epix.com to find out how you can watch it there.
Marc:I do know it will be on Hulu in 90 days.
Marc:The people that have watched it, the feedback I got has been positive, but I get the feeling a lot of you can't watch it, and I'm sorry.
Marc:But you can look into getting epics, or you can wait until it comes on Hulu, or I imagine eventually it'll show up somewhere.
Marc:But thank you for watching it if you did, okay?
Marc:For those of you who live in Neelah,
Marc:Northeastern Los Angeles Highland Park.
Marc:You might have seen me in a Bugatti kit car being driven down Figueroa Street between 62nd or 60th and 50th in the Nila Highland Park Christmas Parade.
Marc:Yolanda the woman who owns a building where hopefully I'm going to be getting an office she asked me last year she runs this little parade and she asked me a couple years ago if I wanted to be the Grand Marshal and I thought like I will not do that you know I am I'm a carpetbagger here you know I don't feel like you know I came to this neighborhood I love my neighborhood I love my house when I moved here in 2004 you cannot hang the gentrifying label on me it was impulsive
Marc:I had some money saved from a TV deal.
Marc:I'd never bought a house before.
Marc:I was driving around this neighborhood with a friend of mine looking to rent a place in Garvanza.
Marc:And I saw this house for sale.
Marc:And I talked to the woman who became my second wife.
Marc:And I said, let's buy this house.
Marc:I had no idea where I was.
Marc:So now that Highland Park's become sort of this weird kind of hipster paradise and a lot of rock people and our creative people and young families and people that have interesting facial hair configurations and shirt and pant choices.
Marc:have moved in.
Marc:I don't have a problem with it, but I don't want to claim any sort of, you know, territory here.
Marc:I feel like I'm imposing.
Marc:So you're asking me to be the grand marshal of a parade in a primarily Latino neighborhood.
Marc:I felt like, you know, what, what it doesn't, it's not going to look right.
Marc:It's not right.
Marc:But this year, she talked me into it, and it was interesting.
Marc:I rode in the Bugatti thing, and I waved.
Marc:I was in front of a band, I think from, I don't remember which high school, marching band, and I would wave at people.
Marc:And every couple of blocks, they had announcers that would sort of say, comedian Mark Maron lives in Highland Park, and he talked to President Obama in his garage here in Highland Park.
Marc:It was like, I wrote the goddamn copy, and I was almost overcompensating.
Marc:it's not not not because i was bragging but i was like why wouldn't people that have lived their entire lives here for generations look at me like he's one of the people that are have come here to take over our neighborhood so the only thing i could think of was like you know why i the president came by and you know he came by our neighborhood and i was excited about that because i love the neighborhood and
Marc:So I had a tremendous amount of insecurity.
Marc:And then as I drove by these, they would tell the story in English and then they'd say in Spanish and all I would hit.
Marc:The only thing I would pick up was Senor Marron, President Obama.
Marc:I like my own.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:I think maybe I think that would be very affected, you know, in an effort to to pledge my allegiance to the neighborhood that that I only pronounce it that way.
Marc:But it was it was lovely.
Marc:And, you know, I got to eat a nice big plate of Mexican food and I met some local politicians and some people involved with the parade.
Marc:And it was fun.
Marc:I was glad to be part of it.
Marc:I don't know if I'm going to be parading as something I do regularly, but it was a good experience to be one of the I don't know if I was the Grand Marshal or if there were many, but on the side of the Bugatti, there was a little sign that said Mark Maron podcast artist.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:I'll take it in wave.
Marc:Wave at those kids.
Marc:It was nice, and I was happy Yolanda asked me to do it.
Marc:But again, I'm only available for that parade.
Marc:I'm not available for any other waving jobs just for Yolanda and just for Highland Park.
Marc:And it was a good first experience for me.
Marc:Thank you, Highland Park.
Marc:Right now, my pleasure to bring up a guy possessed by...
Marc:Possessed by something.
Marc:He's definitely possessed by an intensity and a speed and an amazing sense of humor.
Marc:Again, Adam Resnick.
Marc:The book is Will Not Attend, Lively Stories of Detachment and Isolation.
Marc:You can get that book wherever you get books.
Marc:He's written on Letterman, Get a Life, Larry Sanders, the movie Cabin Boy, Death to Smooch, among other things that we will talk about.
Marc:This is me talking to Adam Resnick here in the garage.
Marc:Happy Hanukkah.
Guest:You know how it is.
Guest:You're born wired a certain way, and then on top of that, then I had an awful environment.
Guest:The way I was wired, the environment I lived in was the worst thing for my type of wiring.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You were kind of high...
Marc:A warrior.
Guest:Very much a warrior, but not in a typical way.
Guest:I know from hearing you certain things.
Guest:For example, I worried about everything.
Guest:I can remember being in kindergarten in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and hearing a siren in the distance.
Guest:And I specifically remember, because my mom had dropped me off,
Guest:And my little brothers, my twin brothers were, I think, in the backseat or something.
Guest:They were babies at the time.
Guest:And I heard the siren.
Guest:My mind immediately went to.
Guest:She was in an accident.
Guest:She's dead.
Guest:I pictured the station wagon flipped over in a creek in my mind.
Guest:A creek.
Guest:Went right off the road.
Guest:in a creek, partially submerged.
Guest:I can picture my brothers upside down, my mother dead upside down.
Guest:That's how I, and I always, that's just the way it was.
Marc:I used to get, when my parents left town,
Marc:I guess it was 1970.
Marc:So I'm like seven, right?
Marc:Six or seven.
Marc:And they went away to the Orient, which you don't call it anymore.
Marc:I guess Japan, China, Hong Kong.
Marc:They took a trip and they left me with this old Latino woman who cleaned the house.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And she was okay.
Marc:But the problem was I got so sick and nauseous because I kept picturing the plane going into the ocean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it was just pieces of a plane.
Marc:And I would just wait for the call that they didn't find the plane.
Guest:That is so me.
Guest:I mean, and my parents rarely traveled.
Guest:I got sick.
Guest:Physically sick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But here's, that's the thing I think that I'm a little different than some people.
Guest:I think neurosis it is.
Guest:It's like snowflakes or whatever.
Guest:Like it's always slightly different.
Guest:I was never, I never had a Woody Allen kind of neurosis.
Guest:Never cute?
Guest:Never cute and not Jew-y, really.
Guest:I really didn't have that Jewish angle because my family wasn't really like that, you know.
Guest:Although that's still in you.
Guest:It's in you kind of, you know.
Guest:Do you fight it?
Guest:No, I will tell you, I did always lean towards Gentile kids, the few friends I had, because I wasn't a person who really sought out friends.
Marc:Well, I noticed that with your sister-in-law.
Marc:In the book, there was a reference to Christmas, so I didn't know if your wife was not Jewish.
Guest:She's not Jewish, and I could not have married a Jewish woman.
Guest:I tried it.
Guest:I tried it.
Guest:See, that would be my wife, her complete lack of neurosis.
Guest:Here's my wife.
Marc:Does she have the temperament of like an animal trainer?
Guest:In a way.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:Although I think I'm turning her into an animal.
Guest:I mean, it's just, you know, like, no, just in the sense that I couldn't.
Guest:Breaking her down.
Guest:No day at the beach.
Guest:No day at the beach.
Guest:I feel that.
Guest:But here's my wife's, Lori's, way she lives.
Guest:It is, she doesn't think about the past.
Guest:She doesn't think about tomorrow.
Guest:The day that she's in is the day, and it's a good day, always.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because, yeah, very Gentile that way.
Guest:And that kind of calms me down, and I'm fascinated, although sometimes.
Guest:How often do you fight it, though?
Guest:It's like, it's not good.
Guest:No, I have to try to make her say, you know, you got shit inside you that you don't want to fucking learn about.
Guest:You don't want to know about.
Guest:Is that a daily thing?
Yeah.
Guest:So am I. I mean, look, I will say this, you know, any arguments you get in, it's always me being wrong.
Guest:I'm an asshole.
Guest:I'm just, look, I think we're similar in a lot of ways because I fight, I get angry a lot, which is part of it.
Guest:I think that was part of the environment growing up.
Guest:I'm very, because my dad was so high strung.
Guest:And so I'm like always.
Marc:The book is really funny and really honest, but like unlike memoirs, some memoirs, you know how to end a thing.
Marc:Like, you know, because sometimes you don't go for the joke.
Marc:The jokes are, you know, earned.
Marc:And there's a couple... Like, there was a few moments where I was, like, laughing out loud a lot.
Marc:But, like, sometimes with us, with funny people, when you get to the end, it sort of...
Marc:it always has a little bit of emotional resonance.
Marc:You know, you know how to end things.
Guest:Well, that's what, you know, at times I would advise writing it, I would resist some of the fun.
Guest:If I was something that was really funny that I thought, and I never thought about in terms of jokes, but you're a joke writer.
Marc:So it's hard that you have the muscle.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I just think I have the muscle.
Guest:I have always been sort of, I think, looked at things humorously, but nothing like a class clown and had no interest in comedy or anything.
Guest:So anyway, the book, there's times where I would actually think that's almost too funny, and I would feel like it was...
Guest:It's very much in my voice.
Guest:It's in my voice.
Guest:But I also knew, oh, well, that will help sell it too.
Guest:But I really didn't want it to be, I don't like to think of it as a comedy book or a humor book, which I understand that's how people will, that's why people enjoy it.
Guest:I read a lot that people find it very funny.
Guest:But to me, and it's not that I don't realize I'm describing things that are funny.
Guest:I describe them in a funny way.
Guest:But, you know, that stuff is, it was hard.
Guest:Some of it was painful to think back on.
Guest:Horrible.
Marc:Well, you talked about your father, and I don't want to cut you off, but I'm going to.
Guest:No, sure.
Marc:Because late in the book, there's this one bit of information that's dropped in a piece that's laid into the book where your father's life or what he came from becomes very defined.
Marc:And it was just this moment where his father or grandfather was a rabbi,
Marc:who came to this country and because they were of a certain class of Jew, could not find a congregation or practice and was forced into working in a butcher shop.
Marc:And then he grew up in poverty at being the son of a first generation immigrant who had status and prestige in the community.
Marc:And then the American experience with him was just fighting his way just to maintain himself and his identity.
Marc:And it had nothing to do with being Jewish necessarily, but what he comes from is pretty
Guest:pretty fucking jewish exactly in the worst way and it ruined my dad my dad you know is um had a lot you know he is a chip on his shoulder about they my my great character by the way thanks yeah well he is he's a great is he still alive yeah he is and how old is he he's like 91 right now that may he's a fighter right he
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:He's a tough... Yeah, and so... But the Jewish... My whole life, even growing up, I was like, those goddamn Jews, you know?
Guest:And he's not a self-loathing Jew, but what happened was he would say they ruined his life, you know?
Guest:And his father... We were very...
Guest:peasant stock you know they were not a big thing so he came in and you know and had that whole lower east side experience and in and getting in fights and learning how to fight and becoming you know really tough you know but he um and the fights were always about you know him being a you know the kids were everyone was starving then as he describes everyone was pissed off all the getting those in those slums you know so um he uh
Guest:His father, my grandfather, I vaguely remember, there was no love in the family from him or his mother.
Guest:They didn't express love.
Guest:They were dirt poor.
Guest:He didn't have like a temple that he was a rabbi in.
Guest:They were little satellites.
Guest:The other Orthodox Jews would come to their tenement, the little.
Marc:But I'm talking about where they came from.
Marc:Where is it, Russia?
Guest:Yeah, Russia.
Guest:Yeah, they came from Russia and they would.
Guest:But my grandfather, I think, was also a hard guy to get along with.
Guest:But they made things like my dad had services.
Guest:It was like a little from what I understand in his little rat hole in the tenement building where I had other some of my other relatives living.
Guest:Yeah, there'd be like maybe half a dozen or so Jews, other Russian Jews that would come and he would conduct, I guess, some kind of a service in there.
Marc:See, I come from Russian Jews on my father's side.
Marc:And it's interesting when we talk about this that you never hear about poverty, especially those fucking, that Lower East Side sweatshop, all white immigrants, really.
Marc:A lot of them Jews.
Marc:And you don't even think about it.
Marc:But at that time, I think you were going to get to it, is that...
Marc:There was a class structure within Jews, like German Jews.
Guest:My dad points that out.
Guest:I think I mentioned the book.
Guest:Yeah, exactly what you're saying, what you're about to say.
Guest:Yeah, the German Jews are the worst.
Guest:They look down on the Russian Jews.
Guest:My dad was the thing where, like, I think he might have went through a period where he was defensive about being a Jew.
Guest:But the Jews were so bad to him.
Guest:The stories he would tell about he had a dog that he loved when he was a little kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they would just tell his father, the rabbi.
Guest:you know, rabbi should not own, have an animal in the house.
Guest:So he had to get rid of his dog.
Guest:My dad, you know, became pretty good at basketball.
Guest:This is when they moved away and stuff.
Guest:Then it was about, he wasn't, or in football, he wasn't allowed to play in the Sabbath.
Guest:He just said, you know, everything is, they drove my father nuts.
Guest:They drove my grandfather nuts.
Guest:They, you know, the good grandfather, I think I mentioned in the book, he would come in, they bring a live chicken back in the old days, I guess, and the Jew, and they bring it to the, I forget, there's a word, I don't know how to pronounce it for what that butcher was.
Guest:So he used to kill it in that sort of traditional Jewish, all that shit.
Guest:And so they bring the chicken in, and then they would drive him nuts.
Guest:And he'd come back in.
Guest:All right, so come back and get your chicken.
Guest:It'll be ready to go around 5 o'clock.
Guest:And they come in.
Guest:My dad would be, and those fucking Jews, every time they walk in, he'd bring the chicken out.
Guest:This is not my chicken.
Guest:My chicken was much larger than this chicken.
Guest:They drove my poor grandfather nuts.
Guest:So this is the shit that my dad talks about.
Marc:Your dad's like a James Caan-style Jew.
Guest:um yeah not as uh yeah i guess not i mean james come pretty wild my dad was being tall oh yeah muscular tall yeah very handsome when he was i mean he was a good-looking guy your mother was a jew too yes but she was more of a very um relaxed they didn't have i guess reformed jews then but that kind of uh her her side of the family they were almost gentile in the sense of their disposition but they were you know jewish you know and they i guess uh
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:My dad was just a lone wolf.
Guest:He had a brother and sister who didn't like him.
Guest:No love from his father.
Guest:A little bit of not very demonstrative love from his mother.
Guest:And he had to go out in the street and get taunted.
Guest:And he learned, you know, to fight back.
Guest:And he, as he said, you know, if they came at me in a gang and they got me, I'd remember and I'd get them one at a time.
Guest:You know, I mean...
Guest:I'd wait for a guy for one year.
Guest:I'd wait for him, and I'd have a fucking brick, and I'd remember that.
Guest:And so he was eventually run out, like a social worker.
Guest:The mothers used to come to my grandmother's tenement doorstep with bloody shirts and stuff and say, look what your son did.
Guest:So eventually a social worker came and said, he's either going to end up in jail or in the electric chair.
Guest:You've got to get the fuck out.
Guest:So then they moved to Englewood, New Jersey.
Guest:It was about the most awful child.
Marc:Yeah, I remember it.
Marc:Yeah, that's where mine are from.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Jerseys.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:From Morris County.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Compton Lakes.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:I remember that shit.
Marc:Did you live in Jersey?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Harrisburg.
Guest:All Harrisburg.
Guest:Yeah, Pennsylvania.
Marc:You ended up in Harrisburg and your dad was in the insurance racket.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:He ended up, he got to Harrisburg, I guess, when he was in like, you know, 10th or 11th grade.
Marc:So he's actually a little older than my parents.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:I'm 55.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I'm 52.
Marc:All right, so you're going through life with these, what, three older brothers?
Marc:Two.
Guest:No, I have three older ones, two younger ones.
Marc:And the older ones were just, it was just complete chaos in the house at all times.
Guest:It was awful.
Marc:The one about your brother, the one who steals, is hilarious.
Guest:That's constant.
Guest:No, my heart was, I'm sure, beating too fast through my entire childhood.
Guest:I just could not wait to get out of there.
Guest:But it totally, like I said, I know I...
Guest:You know you're born with a certain amount of damage, and we'll never know that whole nature versus nurture thing.
Guest:Never?
Guest:But I was in the worst environment for what I was wired for, and my wiring was purely my father's side, crazy inbred Eastern European Russian peasant stock.
Marc:Anger.
Marc:Anger and panic.
Guest:Anger and panic.
Marc:I do the peasant stock, too.
Marc:See, people don't fucking really talk about this, but maybe it's such a Jew thing.
Marc:I believe you're either...
Marc:Like the professor-composer Jew?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Or you're the guy who lifts things and can do sports, kinda?
Guest:No, I think about it all the time.
Guest:We're like hybrids, you and I. Yeah, my dad's side, both sides, I think.
Guest:Especially on my dad's side, there was nothing cultural, there was nothing artistic, I can tell, on my dad's side of anything.
Marc:Because people forget that there were Jewish cops...
Marc:Jewish butchers.
Marc:I remember when I worked at a Jewish deli, Shelly, the guy who owned it, says, that's Bernie, the contractor.
Marc:I'm like, when he builds things, he's like, no, he's in the mob, stupid.
Marc:And then you realize, oh my God, a lot of the mob were Jews.
Marc:And I don't know why I'm saying this proudly.
Marc:We get around.
Guest:Don't pigeonhole us.
Marc:We've killed people.
Marc:Look at Israelis.
Marc:But they're a whole different thing.
Marc:I don't know what even to deal with the Israelis.
Guest:And it's amazing, I mean, Israelis.
Marc:It's all frightening to me.
Marc:But you and I seem very similar in what we come from, and similar in rage, and your brain seems to be going a little faster than mine, but it probably always did, because I would immediately get into almost a coma.
Marc:I'd get panicked, and then I'd freak out, and then I'd fall into myself.
Marc:That's what I would do.
Guest:Exhaust myself.
Guest:Are you good with... See, the thing is, but you turn... Here's, you know, again, the way everyone that it's similar and there's different things.
Guest:When I'm in the height of panic or worry or something like that, I can't work.
Guest:You seem through your... Because of doing stand-up and everything, you use that shit and throw it into your work.
Guest:Now, in my book, yeah, I put it into the... You know, it's in the book.
Guest:However...
Guest:I can't really work when I'm in that state.
Guest:I shut down and I feel my imagination goes away.
Guest:Everything goes away.
Guest:I'm just depressed and fucked up.
Guest:So I have to have a little bit of a... I have to be feeling kind of a little bit of good, which for me is a very low part.
Guest:And that's what the medicine does.
Guest:What's it called again?
Guest:No, it doesn't do it all the time.
Guest:It's called ProVigil.
Guest:What it is, and I take it every now and then.
Guest:Like I said, I'm an anti-drug guy, anti-psychiatry guy.
Guest:I was never into that shit.
Guest:You're anti-psychiatry.
Marc:psychiatry well no here's the thing i um like when i how did you break that down though so you like like let me just because i have similar thoughts all right so you you look at psychology psychiatry philosophy religion all trying to answer the same questions none of them a science really right so in psychiatry sometimes you know in your mind you're like well maybe it's a science and sometimes they're making more progress and understanding uh the brain on a cognitive level but when you say psychiatry you mean i'm not going to sit with a guy and tell my problems
Marc:Because your father didn't like that.
Guest:Look, I grew up in Harrisburg.
Guest:I didn't know a single... I don't think there was any psychiatrist in town.
Guest:I never knew a single person.
Guest:You didn't do it.
Guest:And in my family... So there was the next class up.
Guest:In my family, you would never do that.
Guest:My dad would see that as like... First of all, it would never even come... It would never even enter anyone's mind.
Guest:We didn't talk about psychiatrists.
Guest:And it would probably be seen as a very weak thing to go to a psychiatrist.
Marc:But it's interesting because it's a class thing.
Marc:That you were like... Not unlike my grandfather...
Marc:Not my father.
Marc:My father got out somehow and moved up.
Marc:But my grandfather was a bookkeeper and there was a class of Jews.
Marc:It was that first middle class.
Marc:It wasn't really that moneyed.
Marc:And it wasn't until they really sort of moved out of New York into real suburbs.
Marc:So in that community, because in the community I grew up in, I think it's a generational thing.
Marc:Because your dad's generation is really probably the tail end of my grandfather's generation.
Guest:My parents had kids later in life.
Marc:So no psychiatry for you.
Guest:No, I did eventually, though.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:I got to a point.
Guest:I was doing this show for HBO.
Guest:It only did eight episodes.
Guest:What was that?
Guest:It was called The High Life.
Guest:I did it for Letterman's Company.
Guest:Some of it came out okay.
Guest:But I was...
Guest:i'm not a real fast writer you know what i mean and i found myself in a situation where i didn't have enough support in general on the show and it was all on me and the dates were coming and the scripts were due and i wasn't happy and i had to write and i'm not a person who can just quickly rewrite shit yeah i can rewrite it i can do it yeah but if i'm looking down the barrel of like hey we need those five episodes next wednesday then i i was in a blind panic and so i read i had a friend who i couldn't work it's also could not work panic attack and this is
Guest:Couldn't breathe.
Guest:Post cabin boy.
Guest:No, never.
Guest:You know, it's weird.
Guest:My panic attacks never get to that degree.
Guest:They're just something that I can feel in my stomach, and I just feel, you know, my head shuts down, and I just realized, you know, I was over my head.
Guest:It was post cabin boy, too, where I talked to a friend of mine who I knew saw shrink.
Guest:I said, do you have a shrink?
Guest:Because I have to talk to someone I need.
Guest:You know, I really, because I have to get this fucking work done.
Guest:So that's how I first started.
Marc:You're in crisis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, crisis.
Guest:It was the worst.
Guest:For me, it was, to me, it was really a frightening moment.
Guest:And then so I eventually started seeing this guy who I liked.
Guest:I saw him for many years and then stopped seeing him, but he got me on antidepressants, which took a long time to start to work because you taper up slowly.
Marc:Were you depressed?
Guest:Well, I think depression and anxiety is what I have, but also I can't – whatever it is where you can't stop thinking.
Guest:That's why meditation, which I've tried.
Guest:It's like ridiculous.
Guest:I'm never going to be able to clear my head.
Guest:I believe some people can do it.
Guest:Not me.
Guest:I can't focus just on my breathing.
Guest:And so –
Guest:Antidepressants have been helpful for me.
Guest:They haven't cured me.
Guest:But if I've had, like, you know, a wide amount of anxiety, it's now, you know, a little less than that.
Guest:They've had no – I can tell that I don't think there's been any effect on my creativity.
Guest:Maybe I'm a little slower in how fast things come to me.
Marc:See, here's what happens to me.
Marc:It's like I get to that point of paralysis or I get, like, overwhelmed.
Marc:And eventually some part of me, some fighting part of me is like, well, you're just going to have to dump this into the world in the form of anger.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And get into the present.
Marc:Like last night I went into two sets at the comedy store.
Marc:I hadn't done comedy in a couple weeks.
Marc:And I was like, thank fucking God.
Marc:I got some of it out.
Marc:And I feel better today.
Marc:But I was about to yell at my girlfriend.
Marc:I was about to fucking, you know, I wanted to unload on somebody.
Guest:Yeah, I'm like... You go right in with it?
Guest:I got anger shit, but it's not... It's interesting because I've never wanted to be... I never saw myself as a performer.
Guest:I never thought I would do anything.
Guest:I wasn't interested in comedy.
Marc:How did it happen?
Marc:So you're in high school.
Marc:You're falling into yourself.
Marc:You're full of panic.
Marc:You got brothers.
Marc:It's a terror in the house.
Marc:It's unlivable.
Marc:You become an insurance salesman.
Guest:Briefly.
Marc:Briefly in a very beautiful bit of a nice portrait of the end of a certain type of man and industry.
Guest:I really think that post-war feeling, there was still a whiff of it right up until even the early to mid-80s.
Guest:Then things started to change rapidly.
Guest:When I started at Letterman, we were on typewriters.
Guest:When I left, they were just wheeling the computers in.
Guest:Then, you know...
Marc:Isn't that weird that it's not that long ago?
Marc:It wasn't.
Guest:No, that's the thing.
Guest:For me especially, and I think for guys our age, but it affects me.
Guest:It fucks my head up that I lived in two distinct worlds.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's weird now.
Marc:If you lose your phone, you don't even know who you are.
Marc:It's like the worst thing that can happen.
Marc:Yeah, isn't that weird?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I had the first...
Marc:Macintosh computer.
Marc:I bought it in college.
Marc:I was one of the first people to buy it.
Marc:And I really just bought it as a word processor.
Marc:It wasn't much good for anything else.
Marc:Like it was a 127 something, that big box.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The thing that, yeah, right.
Guest:I bought that.
Guest:Came with a carrying case.
Guest:But it was a machine.
Guest:Where are you going to carry it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Where are you going with that?
Marc:It was a big idea.
Marc:I mean, no one's seen it before.
Marc:And I had one.
Marc:I remember I had one.
Marc:And I remember what it looked like when you typed in.
Marc:And I just used it to type and store things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the idea that you could choose your font.
Marc:It was like, oh, my God.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And that was like 1986, probably, 85, right?
Guest:See, I didn't get my first computer until probably 90.
Guest:Well, they were useless.
Marc:I mean, you just needed a word processor.
Guest:Yeah, I bought what was considered a laptop.
Guest:It was a Toshiba.
Guest:I got it out of here.
Guest:I had one of those.
Guest:Remember the place called?
Guest:It was the Writer's Computer Store.
Guest:Is that still here?
Marc:The Toshiba Tank.
Guest:It was a gigantic gray thing also with a carrying case.
Guest:But here's what I find fascinating is especially the early internet days.
Guest:Like when I first got my first AOL account, that probably was in the mid-90s or something like that.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:It was so fucking slow and everything on the internet is slow.
Guest:But we knew the concept of speed.
Guest:Why weren't we saying, well, this is bullshit technology.
Guest:But how did we not understand or realize how slow it was and say, what's so great about doing this?
Guest:It's just slow.
Marc:The sound of that dial-up.
Marc:That dial-up, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It would be incomprehensible to wait.
Marc:But now, it hasn't helped anything.
Marc:It's just made everything move faster.
Marc:We have adapted to it, so our expectations are equally as fast.
Marc:And they usually get met.
Marc:And then you just go crazy.
Guest:Well, the main thing is I agree for it started out the idea of word processing.
Guest:So there's no more whiteout or that tape that I used to put on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Whiteout was crazy.
Guest:So it's like, wow, you can just do backspace.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So for it did become.
Guest:I don't know how I could have written moving really in a way long form stuff or even this book if I was putting a sheet of paper into a typewriter.
Marc:How do people do it?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:They had more skills.
Marc:They weren't as swappy.
Marc:Everything.
Guest:Robert Town wrote Chinatown on paper.
Guest:How would I be revising it and fucking it up and everything?
Marc:I'm sure there were revisions, but I'm sure there were assistants.
Guest:He was able to do it.
Marc:Right, and there were people that helped, and there were people that retyped, I have to assume.
Marc:But you still had to have that basic skill, and you had to be pretty solid.
Marc:I mean, me, it's like random.
Marc:I don't have any typing.
Marc:I've gotten the way I do it, but it's very erratic, and I'm always going to fuck up.
Marc:But the entire...
Marc:The entire culture is not capable of editing properly anymore.
Marc:Everything just falls through the cracks.
Marc:No one gives a fuck.
Marc:Even with computers, they can't spell my name properly and they misquote and things are sloppy.
Marc:Because now, as opposed to not really knowing how to do it yourself, you just have an army of fucking 18-year-olds to 22-year-olds who are in low-paying or no-paying positions that they give the editorial work to.
Guest:It's fucking disaster.
Guest:I'm telling you, we're circling the drain.
Guest:There's nothing good.
Guest:No doubt.
Guest:I hate, I really hate the time that I'm living in.
Marc:Yeah, but we're circling the drain in this weird sort of, it's a hyper real place.
Marc:The place where all the information runs around that makes us crazy that we act in relation to, that can all be turned off.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:And you can still go somewhere and sit and live a quiet life if you want, but it's a paralyzing fear.
Marc:I like to think we're circling the drain, but I think sometimes it's like, hey, if I just shut everything fucking off and really did it for like a month, I'd be like, oh, we're not circling the drain.
Marc:That thing's circling the drain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you notice, I don't know about you, I can't.
Guest:You can't separate it.
Guest:As much as I want to turn it off, I can't even try that, which people suggested to me, that other thing on your computer where it limits your time on the internet so you have to work.
Guest:You know, I tried that once.
Guest:I'm like, fuck this.
Guest:I want to get back and, you know, procrastinate some more.
Guest:How do I disable this fucking thing again?
Marc:What it's done, all it's done is it's enabled everyone to sort of, you know, masturbate, literally masturbate for hours and hours, one way or the other.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:It's facilitated this, like, mental and actual masturbatory, you know, freedom that no one ever thought they'd have.
Marc:I can sit and waste my entire day filling my head with bullshit or looking at people fucking any way I want.
Marc:and just fucking burn a day.
Marc:That's the big leap forward.
Guest:And buy a lot of shit that you don't want, which gives me temporary pleasure to have Amazon Prime a little.
Guest:No, and it's a procrastinate.
Guest:Oh, Aguirre of the Wrath of God is now on Blu-ray?
Guest:Shit, gotta get that.
Marc:So that's what you do as opposed to just masturbate all day.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of the same thing.
Marc:It's like, I just bought a thing and it's going to come like, should I pay the extra $5 to have it tomorrow?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's exactly it.
Guest:It's totally it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's shit that you don't mean like, yeah, it was maybe, well, look at this.
Guest:This is kind of cool.
Guest:These little mini.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:computer speakers for your laptop.
Guest:I can just throw them in my bag.
Guest:What do I need it for?
Guest:You don't.
Guest:It's like I'm going to have a fucking concert hall sound in my hotel room.
Marc:It's not going to be that good a sound.
Marc:It's not even going to be that good.
Marc:That's the hope.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:It's like, these are the new things.
Marc:You're like, no, no, no.
Marc:It's just the same.
Marc:But, okay, so let's go through how you got involved with writing.
Marc:So you're kind of nuts, and you wanted to get out of the house.
Marc:You did the insurance sales thing.
Marc:Because this book really doesn't – it sort of stops –
Marc:At that, you know, in a way, you don't cover the career.
Guest:And no, it's interesting.
Guest:It was never, or I said to myself, I'm not going to do it.
Guest:I just never would.
Guest:I didn't want to talk at all about, there's nothing I hate more than talking about the business.
Guest:And I don't even, this is the thing, you know, my family, my parents, everything.
Guest:It's always like, they never know what I'm doing.
Guest:I don't like to talk about it.
Guest:I don't want to talk about it.
Marc:Did anyone get hurt by your book?
Guest:Yeah, there was some, yeah, I, yeah, there's some problems.
Guest:There's still some, but you know, something.
Guest:What, brothers?
Guest:Yeah, and also my sister-in-law, which I think thinks that, that have cooled out.
Guest:That was the Disney chapter.
Marc:That's a hilarious chapter, but that didn't sound like it was good going in.
Guest:No, but my wife, who's great, is her sister, you know, I.
Marc:But did you let your wife read that?
Guest:Yes, I absolutely did.
Guest:And I said, she just loved it.
Guest:She goes, no, you got to put it in.
Guest:She'll be fine with it.
Guest:She has a good sense of humor.
Guest:But there were some things I said, just mark anything you think is too much that maybe I should chop out.
Guest:And then she brought it back to me with all this bleeding red.
Guest:You can't say that.
Guest:You can't say this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So at the end of that, I really didn't think – I thought, oh, because my sister-in-law, she's – you know, I thought, oh, she'll be cool about it.
Guest:But then, you know something?
Guest:You justify the shit.
Guest:Because then I thought – I said to Lori, my wife, you know, I said, you know something?
Guest:If anyone did that to me, I would fucking kill them.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Just as it is.
Guest:I have the thinnest skin imaginable.
Guest:So –
Guest:So in that sense, I'm a piece of shit.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But I had – it's something I had to do.
Guest:And not only that, it was real.
Guest:It was true.
Guest:It says a lot about who I am.
Guest:And in most of those stories, and not all of them, I think I come off as the biggest asshole.
Guest:I feel the same way.
Guest:You read some reviews as people that don't – just like, what a fucking asshole, you know?
Guest:And the things he says about Disney or the thing he, you know, does this and that or –
Marc:Well, I had the same issue, but see, what I realized, and it sounds like you learned a lesson as well, somehow, that you probably wouldn't do it again, is that it's a weird lesson when you're self-involved and you're like, this is my life, these are people in my life, I'm the underdog in this, I look like a horrible thing, but what you forget is that the people you're writing about, especially in this culture and especially in the circle of people that you run, they're just as self-centered as you are.
Marc:So what they're gonna do is they're gonna see it and they're gonna be like, how embarrassing, this whole book's about me, basically.
Marc:You know, and now like, you know, everyone's going to read this about me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They don't even look at it.
Marc:It's like three pages.
Marc:Doesn't matter.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So their whole worldview and perception thinks it's all coming down on them.
Guest:Because most people, I think, um...
Guest:Which is probably more healthy from a mental mental perspective that don't go there and think about what's fucked up about them.
Guest:And certainly they don't talk about them.
Guest:I think for people like us, you know, and I got to a point I didn't really talk.
Guest:I didn't think of myself.
Guest:I came to that conclusion sort of as my late teens that that I am.
Guest:I'm just crazy, and I thought, you know something, that's just who I am, and it wasn't, you know, it suddenly, I just realized, I really think I'm crazy, and I am crazy, you know, but I think when you realize that, it doesn't necessarily, should not give you a license to be an asshole, but if you just, you at least have to point it out, and I am the first to point out,
Guest:everything that's awful about me, you're the same way, you know what I mean?
Marc:It takes time, though, and you have to hurt people.
Guest:Yeah, and the thing is, if I never saw a psychiatrist for the period that I saw a psychiatrist, I'd go on antidepressants, then, you know, I did that also largely for my wife and my young daughter, because I really don't want to be... But I would say first and foremost for me, I could not continue.
Guest:I described, you know, when it was that awful moment where I just had all this work on my shoulders and I was panicking, but I'd felt like that in different degrees my entire life, and I realized to...
Guest:My life lived unmedicated and I didn't self-medicate because I didn't do drugs at all.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because you're afraid of them?
Guest:It wasn't a little bit of like I did not lose control.
Guest:Someone had given me a drug that made me feel so wonderful.
Guest:You know, when I was 16 or 17 or a pot did that for me, which it didn't.
Guest:Maybe, but it's not my personality.
Guest:You know why?
Guest:Because I judge others.
Guest:I'm these fucking people taking drugs.
Guest:I hated kids so much in school, so anything they were doing and stuff or my brothers were doing, I did not want to be like that.
Guest:But I also had a sense of... I always felt that I was...
Guest:teetering on some sort of mental disaster or breakdown anyway i'm like yeah i don't think i'm gonna start fucking around with drugs and things there was no concept in my mind that they could help whether they were recreational drugs or of course back you know then they're like so they're no psychiatrists and also fun in general was completely alien to you
Guest:Yes, that's absolutely true.
Guest:I did not have – I did not – my fun ended – if I had any amount of fun was the day that I could no longer – that I was put into pre-K, whatever the fuck it is, and I was no longer in the passenger seat in the station wagon with my mother going to the grocery store, which was – that was relaxing.
Guest:My brothers were in school.
Guest:It's just me and my mom and –
Marc:For me, what I've realized is that when people go, are you happy?
Marc:For me, it's never been about happiness.
Marc:It's been about relief.
Marc:Relief and happiness are the same to me in a way.
Marc:I'm learning a little more now about the idea of happiness.
Marc:But to me, it's terrifying, really.
Guest:It is, yeah.
Guest:And I'm sure, I don't know if you have, like, there's moments of maybe some manic happiness, which dissipates very quickly.
Marc:Yeah, I get manic, I get mania for like two or three days.
Guest:Yeah, that's pretty long.
Marc:Usually before I get a cold or just, it just comes and I'm like, all right, this is that thing that happens for a few days.
Marc:But I don't get depressed.
Marc:I get like, sometimes I feel like things are pointless.
Guest:Yeah, it's – do you feel this – this is what I've recently – I mean, not that recently, but I think I – in trying to pinpoint what it is, when I am at my most happy, it's when I felt I've done good work.
Guest:I've written something that's this and that.
Guest:And if I don't do that, I am –
Guest:Fucked up, you know like the book made me feel good.
Guest:I had a good sense when I was the anything I've done It was the first time I felt that I had control of it.
Guest:This was not going to be turned into anything else I was just writing a book and it was something that I had to do because I felt that my writing was not My name was on shitty movies that I really will say not my fun That's the lamest thing a writer can say so I know people they listen.
Guest:This is the oldest writer thing Well, you should have read my script in my case
Guest:cabin boys a whole other story i don't know the strength to get into that right now anyway but anyway maybe in 10 minutes but it may be okay but but but then there's other stuff i've done i and i also realized that the medium of television and film um you know you're you're not gonna in writing this book this is the only thing that's gonna be pure that you really are right because in radio that you don't yeah yeah radio and film you're basically like you're doing a job you're on a staff you're
Marc:your work is your own only to the degree till it goes to the next guy.
Marc:And then they decide whether they're even gonna use it or not, and if they're gonna change it or not.
Marc:And then like the problem with the wonderful union protection, which is good, is like, hey, don't worry about it, it's shit now, but you get the credit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, yeah, I know.
Guest:Lovely.
Guest:No, no, it just doesn't.
Guest:What do you care?
Guest:You got the credit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, I know that's everything.
Guest:I would rather be fucking poor and be able to hold my head up a little bit.
Guest:Fucking credit.
Guest:You'd have the credit.
Marc:So how do you get into your first job as Letterman?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:Did you go to college?
Guest:I went brief.
Guest:My grades were so bad coming out of high school.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I had no intention of going to college.
Guest:Me either.
Guest:Because school to me was, I mean, it's a lame cliche or comparison, but it really was prison to me without a doubt.
Guest:It's the closest thing I could compare it to.
Guest:And when I got out, it was like, I'm not going back to any of those situations.
Guest:So I worked when I was 60.
Guest:Well, first I was like, I worked for a landscaper, a guy who later got brutally murdered.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is another thing.
Guest:That's another thing.
Guest:When you think that everything bad is going to happen and then bad things do happen, it confirms.
Guest:I remember certain things in my childhood that made me real.
Guest:When I was young and my dog was hit by a car and killed, I'm fucked up about that to this day.
Guest:But it also reinforced my natural biological...
Guest:mentally way of processing things that bad things are always going to happen.
Guest:My parents are going to die.
Guest:I never... This is the interesting thing.
Guest:I'm not a hypochondriac at all.
Guest:I don't have patients for that.
Guest:I know a little bit... Most people are... My thing is losing people around me that I care about
Guest:Look, I hope I live a long time and I hope I'm healthy.
Guest:It's not like if I went to a doctor and he said, this is probably nothing, but there's a lump here.
Guest:I would instantly be like, oh, fuck.
Guest:But I don't think about it.
Guest:I'm not always touching myself and feeling for it.
Guest:I don't have that.
Guest:I worry about other people.
Guest:Even death is not something that I obsess over.
Guest:Just the people who are running off for myself.
Guest:Isn't that interesting?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you've got a fear of people leaving for good.
Guest:Yeah, it started with my parents, my mother specifically.
Guest:I always thought growing up every year, this is the year something's going to happen.
Guest:She's going to die.
Guest:Is she alive?
Guest:Yeah, she is.
Guest:And so I'm very, you know, I'm lucky.
Guest:That's a funny thing.
Guest:It turned out to be whatever.
Guest:Wrong.
Guest:Yeah, wrong.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But yet some things turned out to be truth.
Marc:dog one was a big one right yeah but that's sort of like after a certain point you realize this is this is my belief system like you know this is how my brain works and even if it's crazy it's how it's how i comfort myself or it's how i define myself even if the panic about other people that's somehow the repetition of that pattern you know keeps you in a place even if it's not a good place it's something that's familiar to you yeah
Marc:So like, you know, there's obviously ways to maybe get out of that place or sort of make it less menacing.
Marc:But it's the way, like I'm learning that these negative patterns are really what we call home.
Marc:It's what we've done.
Marc:It's what we come from.
Marc:So you just repeat them.
Marc:And to change them, like I just learned yesterday, someone talked to me about neural pathways.
Marc:I mean, it's possible, but it's work.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:I don't think they're there.
Guest:You can help.
Guest:I think the when I was seeing a psychiatrist and antidepressants maybe have helped maybe 13 percent.
Guest:I'll take that.
Guest:But you've decided you can live with it.
Guest:I think I can live with it.
Guest:And I think I am.
Guest:I've realized that, you know, I think you are what you are.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:You can change a little bit.
Guest:Everyone can change a little bit, but I can't... Here's what I believe.
Marc:Here's what I believe.
Marc:And it's a little bit kind of sappy.
Marc:I think what you can change is, and it usually will happen anyways...
Marc:with age as you get humbled and your pride diminishes is that, you know, you can open your heart more and become a more giving person, even in the context of all your problems.
Guest:I agree with that.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And that's a pretty tremendous change.
Guest:Yeah, that is, that is absolutely.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And it's, um,
Guest:i imagine when you had a kid you were whoa no not not it here's the thing is it did become that it became that i had well i mentioned in the book you know uh the pregnancy worried me because i did not want a boy because of my brother the brother experience i don't like boys in general i'm telling you the first day of kindergarten yeah it was and i always love women i
Guest:I always had also, by the way, early sexual, strong heterosexual feel.
Guest:I don't know if you had that.
Guest:I can remember being very young.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I remember kissing girls.
Guest:My brother having Playboys and stuff, not knowing what sex is, not knowing anything, but seeing, you know, and being like, but in general, though, I always thought that girls and women are kinder.
Guest:They're less nuts.
Guest:They're just, which is, now, of course, we know that's not a blanket thing, but I found that better.
Guest:So right away at kindergarten, when I walked in and saw these- And also all the men in your life were-
Marc:Crazy.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:And mean, abusive, fucking volatile people.
Guest:But I don't know about you.
Guest:I didn't have this thing where, like, when I saw the kids in school when I first got there, the little other little kids, and the boys, just them all with their fucking trucks and their toy guns and their GI Joes.
Guest:I never liked that kind of stuff.
Guest:No, I didn't either.
Guest:And the girls were sweeter.
Guest:They were nice.
Guest:So I associate women with safety and intelligence and...
Guest:something that's more just they're just emotionally smarter i know it's a blanket thing and there's plenty of whack chops out there you're both sexes but but still i just i i and when you're a guy that doesn't like that see what i gravitated towards was older like and we grew up roughly in the same time but you had brothers so it was all in the house the records the hair the cigarettes pot
Marc:But I didn't have that.
Marc:So because I didn't like trucks and stuff, I immediately gravitated towards like the pictures of the hippies.
Marc:And, you know, like that to me was like great.
Marc:I didn't like trucks, but I wanted to grow my hair out.
Guest:Yeah, I did that because my brother's doing that too.
Guest:I wanted to have a mustache.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:No, that was cool to me, that stuff.
Guest:And although I also liked really, like I said, from a young age, really like this, you know, 1920s music.
Marc:Well, someone put that in you somehow.
Guest:yeah i i know i don't like i think and i described the book it's true there's something that matched it it was comforting when they would show these old cartoons from the 30s on tv that that the background music was something that really worked for me and then you start hearing that kind of and then it took me you know many years to i would hear that again and say oh that's that kind of sound of the music i like and then in my teens uh i started to get very uh you know learning a lot about 78 so how do you get this fucking job you don't know the job so yeah
Guest:So I had no interest.
Guest:I just want to say, like, growing up, I had no aspirations to do anything.
Guest:I just assumed I'd sell insurance.
Guest:But I did start.
Guest:I was smart in the sense of, like, I really liked movies, like a lot of old movies on television.
Guest:Then by, you know, the early 80s, really influenced by all those great movies from the 70s.
Guest:And that's when the first buzz of people started talking about going to film school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had to get out of Harrisburg at that point.
Guest:So but in order to go to NYU, I had to go to Harrisburg Area Community College in two years to get my grades up because I could not even get into a shithole.
Guest:I did the same thing.
Marc:I fucked off in high school in my senior year.
Marc:I panicked because I wanted to leave.
Marc:And I applied myself and got like, you know, a minus average.
Guest:yeah yeah that's that's how i was community college i was yeah there suddenly i was because i was i applied myself and i had a goal you know i give a fuck about you know i never once thought at any point in school up to and including my senior year about going to college or being anything yeah never even all i was just like how do i get out of the house how do i fucking survive so that's good yeah that's it yeah see that's um of some kind
Guest:There was no one in Harrisburg that would even make that thing seem – you just never heard about anyone.
Guest:And I'm a person – another one of my big problems is I perceive everything to be impossible.
Guest:So what's the point of even trying?
Guest:I'll come out every different way that that couldn't happen.
Marc:Yeah, well, I get, well, yeah, impossible, so that's it.
Guest:We'd still be living in caves if I was like the head caveman.
Marc:Yeah, of course, but that's the anxiety thing.
Marc:It's sort of like, but then you got to go to the place, and then what, you got to hire people?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
Guest:It's just like, yeah, it never happened.
Guest:Yeah, it never happened.
Guest:Yeah, it's like.
Marc:Well, that's the difference between someone like us and like Judd Apatow.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Someone like that who, you know, knew early what he wanted to do, was focused on that.
Guest:And can maintain the businesses.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, how does he even go out?
Marc:I mean, I see him doing comedy again.
Marc:And I'm like, you know, don't what about the empire?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't you have a family?
Marc:You know, like, what happens is they trust people.
Marc:They deliberate power.
Marc:They outsource jobs and they, you know, they're respected as a boss.
Marc:They hold the leadership thing.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:Even if I was capable of achieving something like that, I would not – a big part of me just could not handle it.
Guest:I could not push for that.
Guest:I wouldn't want to be that out there and that part of every – I don't know what it is.
Guest:I wouldn't be comfortable.
Guest:I don't want to be part of a scene.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:And that's why I never – or part of the – which I know is interesting because comedians, stand-up, that's a really big thing.
Marc:But we're all the... All comedians are like you and me.
Marc:I don't want to... Yeah, I mean, I have a few... Yeah, I guess... And it's... The great thing about the comedians is like... It's like there's a shorthand to it and it's good to be around brilliant, funny people.
Marc:It makes you feel better.
Guest:Well, that's what made... When I finally moved to New York and started and then... So you got out of community college.
Guest:So I go to film school in New York and right away that sucks and I'm already thinking...
Guest:My only goal at that point is how do I stay in the city?
Guest:Because New York City fit me like a glove.
Guest:That was actually the first time I was truly happy.
Guest:Because you know why?
Guest:You can get lost.
Guest:You can be alone.
Guest:You can eat by yourself.
Guest:Anyway, I didn't even know what an internship was.
Guest:Some kid was telling me he got an internship for a producer reading scripts.
Guest:and i was already worried like what am i gonna do when i graduate like i'm i'm not gonna be able to afford to stay here my family can't afford to get what you know this is all i'm gonna go back to harrisburg and so that made me think when he said i was like oh an internship i never heard that word before which i had not yeah and and so what i was interested i was never like this comedy geek it i liked smart comedy i knew it when it like sctv or this and that and i like that kind of stuff but it wasn't any particular obsession with mine i liked you know
Guest:a lot of old movies and stuff like that.
Guest:So I was more into Scorsese than anything.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But what I was really into at that time was the Letterman show, which had been on for about two years.
Guest:And I was obsessed with that show.
Marc:The first couple of years were insanely great.
Guest:But I was more obsessed with Dave.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dave was, I could just tell that this guy was one of the, it was the first guy that I think, this is, I think he,
Guest:We think sort of alike the way he, not necessarily comedian.
Guest:He's a brilliant comedian and everything.
Guest:I mean, the way he's looking at things and his hatred for bullshit and phoniness and the way people are.
Guest:He was the first guy to really, you know, sort of shit on show business and celebrities.
Marc:And he was like, those first couple of years, I mean, he pushed it.
Guest:He pushed it, and that really struck a chord with me in a way that Woody Allen, a little bit, I said, oh, wow, it's interesting.
Guest:I recognize some of that neurosis, but he was, again, the hypochondria and all that kind of Jewy.
Guest:Had no real age Jew.
Guest:That was not that.
Guest:And then Albert Brooks, I thought, now that's even closer.
Guest:That's more because Albert Brooks, some of that, but without the...
Guest:No, he did it without the Jewish thing, like Woody Allen did.
Guest:But Letterman, that was something that was like, oh, my God.
Guest:And so I was – you know, I just thought this guy is – so now I know about these things called internships.
Guest:I went back to my dorm room.
Guest:I cold called the Letterman show and said, do you have any of these things called internships?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they said, actually, we just lost our writer's intern.
Guest:Can you come up and just meet someone for an interview?
Guest:And I was like, yeah.
Guest:I went straight up there.
Guest:I met Steve O'Donnell.
Guest:Great intern is a great guy.
Guest:He's there forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's the mind.
Guest:I mean, when the show was really up and running at its greatest, he, as the head writer, is so responsible for the great, you know, like a lot of people.
Guest:Obviously, Meryl created everything, but Steve, unbelievable.
Guest:So Steve liked me.
Guest:And then he said, we'll come back.
Guest:And I met him to have a couple other meetings.
Guest:And then I got it.
Guest:And I said to myself- Did you meet Dave?
Guest:No, I didn't meet Dave.
Guest:That's a funny story.
Guest:I didn't meet Dave until probably about a few weeks into my internship, maybe even less.
Guest:Then it was a very small office.
Guest:You always saw Dave.
Guest:And he wasn't the CBS Dave.
Guest:But he was still, the show was- I know that studio on NBC.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So-
Guest:So I guess as soon as I got that internship was the first time I ever had a goal for anything.
Guest:And I said, I knew that that place was right for me.
Guest:I knew I could write for that.
Guest:I knew the sensibility, but I knew, you know, it wasn't going to be easy.
Guest:But I said to myself, I don't care if it takes 10 fucking years because I have no other way.
Guest:to enjoy my life or to do something that I think I could do and make a living at.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:And I said to myself, you know, I want to be a writer here.
Guest:And I was very – I had to say I was good in sort of like Steve – as the writer's assistant, I was really helpful.
Guest:Steve liked me.
Guest:Chris Elliott took me under his wing as well.
Guest:Those guys really encouraged me, told me, you know, you should – at that time, like Chris became a writer and maybe one or two other people –
Guest:they were submitting jokes to Dave's assistant.
Guest:He wouldn't use them, but back then he would look at them.
Guest:And I started, so on Chris's advice, I started giving like five jokes a day to Dave's assistant.
Guest:And then, you know, I don't know when it was, maybe a couple months later, I can store it.
Guest:She said, hey, do you got a minute for Dave, Adam?
Guest:I'm opening up viewer mail.
Guest:I edited the viewer mail.
Guest:And I couldn't believe it.
Guest:I went in and he's like, you know, and he has my, they were in blue paper.
Guest:You were supposed to put that blue sheet.
Guest:It's like,
Guest:You know, I like these jokes.
Guest:You know, it was really good.
Guest:Just keep doing it.
Guest:Keep doing it.
Guest:And I walked out of there, and it was like – seriously, that's the greatest – that's the single greatest feeling I ever had in my life, and I knew at that point.
Guest:Yeah, and I kept writing them, and he, for some reason, really took a shine to my jokes, which were not, like, topical.
Guest:They were weird stuff, and they didn't really get laughs, but it was more like –
Guest:i think it was very much pennsylvania so indiana midwestern type of uh sure kind of thing and he liked that kind of weird so he always got a kick out of the jokes the audience never did and uh eventually uh i i was hired and and so that was and that was if had i not made that this is why we know that you know luck plays so much you know when people ask you like how do you do it it's like there's no real first of all you have to be able whatever you're going to do whether it's stand-up an actor
Guest:The thing it starts with is you either have it or you don't.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You've got to be able to do it.
Guest:And then it's just about luck because you just may never have that conversion, that intersection that I was like.
Guest:If I had made that call the next day, the next day they would have been filled.
Guest:I think about it all the time.
Guest:It's not like, oh, you would have ended up doing something.
Guest:No, because I wouldn't have pursued it.
Guest:That was the one time I had the eye of the tiger when I made that call and when I worked my ass off of that show as an intern.
Guest:And later it was a writer's reel.
Marc:So what was the first meeting with Dave before he liked your jokes?
Guest:Oh, that was where I was opening.
Guest:I was in the conference room.
Guest:It was a little conference room.
Guest:And this was before they expanded the offices.
Guest:And so I was at this sort of table.
Guest:And I had my little letter opener and just slicing open these.
Guest:Viewer mail.
Guest:And making a pile that I copied for the writers.
Guest:And from those, they would write things for the viewer mail segment.
Marc:Did you decide what was good or bad, or you just opened them?
Guest:No, I added them.
Guest:And that was also too, Steve O'Donnell was like, I remember the first time he looked at my folder of the ones that he goes, this is, you know, one of the best batch we've had in a long time.
Guest:Because you have to, you know, you have to sort of figure out, oh, this is a good, this one is good.
Guest:Yeah, but there's some that, you know, you can't, you don't want to overwhelm them with too much.
Guest:You just, and so I was, I got the show.
Guest:I mean, I knew the show before I even got there.
Guest:But anyway, so I'm sort of catty-corner from Dave's office.
Guest:There was his assistant's office, and then there was another door that led into Dave's office.
Guest:But every time Dave came out into the hallway, he sort of – he had to make eye contact with me if I looked up.
Guest:And so he did that a few times.
Guest:And then I was always thinking, what's it going to be like the first time I meet Dave?
Guest:Just don't make an asshole out of yourself.
Guest:And he came in finally.
Guest:He goes, I don't think we've met.
Guest:I'm Dave.
Guest:I said, I'm Adam.
Guest:And then I said it for no – so I said, I'm Adam, a promising young intern.
Guest:And he said, why don't you just shut the phone?
Guest:So I said, yeah, hi, I'm Adam.
Guest:I'm a promising young intern.
Guest:And he said, I'm sure you are.
Guest:But he was, but, but he was, I get to say very quickly, this is, it was a very, it was like a small staff.
Guest:It was like a family.
Guest:And, um, you know, he got to know me and he liked, I think,
Guest:I know he kind of liked my sense of humor just the way I talked I was never ever trying to be a funny guy you know and I wasn't a joke yet I think he saw I think he saw me for who I was you know what I mean like I think this is sort of cynical beaten down but you know that's what I was and he has some of that and I there's a lot to Dave I really I think
Guest:We're similar in certain ways, not in the part where I have this amazing genius talent that I become.
Guest:But we have a similar sense of humor, a similar way of looking at things.
Guest:And I think there was a little bit of a slight bonding over that.
Marc:And you were there for like, you know, what?
Guest:seven years eight years five six years and did the relationship grow at all it did it did actually it was and to this day he's um and chris elliott will tell you the same thing i think you know some other people for me dave is uh i gotta say the most probably the most important person you know people in my life he's just like he's like my older brother or father kind of thing i you know when i wrote the book when i write anything like when i
Guest:Everything I wrote was thinking, you know, this has got to be... It pushed me.
Guest:If Dave doesn't like this, I'm fucked.
Guest:I wrote it for Dave.
Guest:I mean, he was the... If everyone hated it except for Dave, I would have been okay with that.
Guest:When I heard that he... And he told me, too.
Guest:He called me and he loved the book.
Guest:That was... This book, it's interesting, did take a certain amount of weight off my shoulders that I think will stay off.
Guest:Not completely, you know, because, you know, you get... Finally, you get used to it.
Guest:But it's like...
Guest:I think I did something that I feel good about.
Guest:I don't say it's perfect.
Guest:I think I'll do better even the next time.
Guest:But I feel good about the book.
Guest:The fact that Dave was so nice about it, had me on the show, that was a big thing for me.
Guest:Because before that...
Guest:i had because this you know the way the business is i just felt like you know if anyone just saw what did this guy do i didn't feel there was anything i could really be proud of and a lot of and some things that i was very embarrassed about and i was also upset about the whole thing about things i you know money jobs you got to do for money and uh and and you know and not for me to be rich but just to live a middle class life in new york city which takes a lot of money and you know my daughter's in private school so it's still you know so um but
Guest:So, you know, I was full of shame for so many years since Cabin Boy.
Guest:Well, what happened?
Guest:Supernatural bad luck with a couple of other movies.
Marc:You left Dave to work with Chris on Get a Life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And people love that show.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm happy about that.
Marc:And you did a lot of episodes.
Marc:I mean, you have, what, three seasons?
Guest:No, a season and a half.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it didn't take, but you were proud of that.
Guest:Yes and no.
Guest:Chris and I did not have a good experience working on that show.
Marc:Together or above you?
Guest:Chris and I were like together.
Guest:We were in the foxhole together.
Guest:But it was, yeah, there was some, it was an awful experience.
Guest:And also coming from Dave, which was such a great experience.
Marc:And you left to pursue this.
Marc:You thought it was time.
Guest:Here's what happened.
Guest:This is where everyone's life is different.
Guest:And no one, no one, what happened to me, I don't know of anyone that has things like that.
Guest:Of course, people do things that turn out badly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:So Chris said to me, Fox wants to do a show with me.
Guest:Do you want to write it with me?
Guest:And I said, I'd let him know.
Guest:I was like, yeah, sure.
Guest:I didn't think anything would happen.
Guest:I never was thinking I wanted to do sitcoms.
Guest:This is a time when a lot of writers were leaving to go to Fox.
Guest:I had no interest in that.
Guest:So, you know, Chris and I said we wrote the show and then I didn't think anything would happen.
Guest:Then suddenly they want to make the pilot.
Guest:Now I'm getting a little nervous because I don't know what I want to do.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:I love working with Chris.
Guest:The pilot was a total sort of it was a bait and switch a bit for the day.
Guest:It was it was nothing that I think Chris and I were very proud of, you know, because it was very we had to we wanted, you know, to get picked up.
Guest:Chris wanted it to get picked up.
Guest:Obviously, clearly it was a big thing for him.
Guest:And so it was a little compromise, the pilot.
Guest:It gives me douche chills, the pilot.
Guest:I can't look at that.
Guest:So here's the thing.
Guest:So just unnaturally, I don't know how long I would have stayed at Dave.
Guest:Not my whole, I mean, I definitely wanted to do other things.
Guest:I wanted to write, I think I really wanted to write features.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:But but so I was sort of fell into that, which is what it was.
Guest:And then when we get a life, then suddenly Chris gets a call from Tim Burton.
Guest:And then that turns into us doing Cabin Boy.
Guest:So all these things just sort of happened to me.
Guest:There were nothing that I planned for was trying to were trying to do.
Guest:And they built in Cabin Boy destroyed my life and destroyed my mind, made me even a more weaker, worried human.
Guest:How?
Marc:Why?
Marc:What happened?
Guest:the just the fallout the embarrassment and that i was how's tim so tim burton you guys had the script whose script was it tim wanted to do like a peewee's big adventure thing okay he was doing the big movies and so he thought he wanted a one with chris yeah so we was you know chris and for chris's stuff he's the only guy i ever wrote with and it was always just for chris material i never had another i never had a writing partner for my own stuff but so um
Guest:You know, we Chris had this idea, maybe do a version of Captain's Courageous with Chris playing like the Freddie Bartholomew character.
Guest:This is like snobby rich kid that ends up on a fishing boat, you know, and these, you know, hard nose semen.
Guest:So it seemed like a natural.
Guest:And and then Tim was going to direct it.
Guest:And I thought, well, you know.
Guest:This will be good for me.
Guest:I have my name on a script that Tim Burton's going to direct.
Guest:And, you know, he directs stuff that this will make it easier for me, even though I don't want to do necessarily big Hollywood movies.
Guest:I want to do cool movies.
Guest:That was my thing, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, whether I could pull it off or not, I don't know.
Guest:But but.
Guest:So when Tim dropped out, they said, Adam, you should direct it.
Guest:And I was like, well, I don't really – I've never really – I directed and did things on little segments and shit.
Guest:But they all convince you and your agent, no, no, you'll have help with that.
Guest:But the main thing – this is the big lesson.
Guest:One, never do anything just for the opportunity.
Guest:The reason I eventually gave in because the agent said, if you do this, do you know how easy it's going to be for you?
Guest:And I was like, well, I wanted to do movies.
Guest:you'll be in the guild but this is right yeah right and but this is something if if i was going to write a movie by myself or if i was going to write one with chris for chris chris and i in a million years would never have fucking come up with cabin boy right this was something that was designed for tim that tim helped you know he shepherded it he loved the idea it was like captain's courageous meets ray harry house and we told him it was meant for his sensibility so then
Guest:When I was finally convinced to direct it, you know, I hated right off the bat.
Guest:I hated the experience of directing.
Guest:At least that I didn't like.
Guest:And it was not something that I would have done on my own.
Guest:I felt felt very odd.
Marc:It must have been insane on the set with you trying to.
Guest:It was I mean, it just wasn't it wasn't fun.
Guest:And also, it's not my personality to be actually in a collaborative situation.
Guest:I don't like being around a lot of people.
Guest:I don't want to have meetings.
Guest:I don't want these things well what should the scale of the ice monster be I didn't and plus I had no here's the thing no passion for that project I just wanted to get through it and I assumed it'll probably be okay you know I'm a little concerned that it wasn't him but the fallout which I don't know if you remember was so this is the worst thing I'm a snob as I'm sure you're about
Guest:Anything about movies literature try to be a little I try to be a little broader lately little more I do but I like what I like it doesn't mean that you know I can't like something silly but whatever right okay so to be this movie when it came out cabin boy was not you know did was not good I look at it now go you know it's kind of this odd little thing it doesn't bother me but at the time
Guest:It was seen as like beneath Pauly Shore movie, so I didn't even know what it was I had no opinion about it at that point all I know is that it tested off You know it was awful so I now not only was I worried about money because I had no one Partially was yeah, it was gonna be hard to get so it was a joke It was like it was a joke and I was now I felt and for a number of years to that I was perceived as a hack and I'm thinking you know something I
Guest:It's not like I have a big ego, but I'm not a fucking hack.
Guest:I'm a snob and I'm actually a pretty good writer who now cannot get a job because of that.
Guest:And it's seen, and I am seen as someone that wrote the hackiest, shittiest, worst, probably sure, it might as well be an Orson Welles movie compared to Cabin Boy.
Guest:Cabin Boy for a while was like the word for a shitty movie.
Guest:It would be compared to, I would see it in articles.
Guest:I remember there was some article, you could not escape.
Guest:That's the thing that people don't remember.
Guest:Now Chris and I,
Guest:we go, there'll be screenings, you know, and we'll do Q and a sometimes.
Guest:And there's, there's a small, not, not gigantic, but enough that there's people that, that really like it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And they don't like it because I've asked them in these things.
Guest:I said, do you guys like it?
Guest:Cause it's one of those, it's so bad.
Guest:It's good thing.
Guest:I'm sure there's some people that like it for that reason.
Guest:There's people that do see it as something that they, they just kind of like as this weird comedy.
Guest:But, um,
Marc:So it was the brunt of all jokes.
Guest:It was the brunt of all jokes.
Guest:I was literally, for a while, like, it embarrassed me to walk out of the house.
Guest:This is in the immediate aftermath.
Guest:It got a lot of press.
Guest:This was before the internet days.
Guest:Hard, real press of people.
Guest:And to this day, and I'll go to my grave and say, well, Chris, I don't know where – it's not that people didn't like the movie, critics and things.
Guest:It pissed them off.
Guest:And there was anger and it was – Cabin Boy, you could not escape some mention of Cabin Boy.
Guest:I remember there was an article, and I think it was the LA Times, the New York Times, about the Laserdisc craze.
Guest:And the article was about all these directors.
Guest:And I'm reading it and I'm thinking, oh, there's an article about Laserdisc craze.
Guest:They're talking about all these director cuts, you know, now Aliens 2, James Cameron is adding extra footage.
Guest:Is this really the idea of a director's cut?
Guest:It was questioning whether that's a good idea.
Guest:The movie should be the movie.
Guest:I'm reading it, enjoying it, minding my own business.
Guest:The last line is, so what's in store for us in the future?
Guest:A director's cut of Cabin Boy?
Guest:Question mark.
Guest:And I'm like, Jesus, everywhere I turned, there was shit like that.
Guest:You could not escape it.
Guest:They would not give me a break or a crisp.
Guest:And so I was... It was the most creative paralysis and depression that I had.
Guest:By the way, this is still pre-psychiatrist, pre-antidepressants for me.
Guest:So just raw.
Guest:I don't drink.
Guest:I don't do drugs.
Guest:I don't even take... And the world is crushing you.
Guest:The world is crushing me.
Marc:You walk out with... You're wearing glasses to protect yourself from this...
Guest:thing that you probably isn't it was bad but i'm not i'm sure there weren't people out in front of your house crazy i was i literally used to think as i i first i was embarrassed just to get from my apartment down to the lobby i have i can still remember i thought like maybe a woman starting to come out of the door uh neighbor and see me and quickly stepping back in and shut the door i would i'd walk down columbus avenue like pierre laurie in that movie m
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:That was me.
Guest:I might as well have done something like that.
Guest:And when I was walking down Columbus, I would actually think sometimes that, and I'm not crazy this way.
Guest:This is the depth of my craze.
Guest:I'm not this kind of crazy.
Guest:I'd actually think that people might advert their glance.
Guest:If they would look at me thinking, oh, that's a guy that did that fucking cabin boy.
Guest:And, like, if you just looked at the numbers of people that actually saw the movie, the ratio would not ever add up.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, no, yeah.
Guest:And so, right, no, but no, but it was written about a lot.
Guest:No, I get it, I get it.
Guest:It wasn't for a period of time.
Guest:What was your picture involved in it?
Guest:Instead of saying Heaven's Gate, they would say Cabin, which made no sense because this is a cheap little movie.
Guest:It was when Disney was cranking out a shitty live-action movies like, you know, Hocus Pocus or The Air up there or Captain Run.
Guest:No offense to those movies.
Guest:I haven't seen any of them.
Guest:But Cabin was just another shitty live-action that Touchstone was doing.
Marc:I think the real horrible sort of, the worst part about it is that in your mind, this was like a sentence worse than death.
Marc:Something outside of your control had realized your greatest fears.
Marc:You're so smart.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And what was happening is, whether the people outside of the world were doing whatever they were doing, the audience in your head that was judging you, the room full of little yous was like, oh, now you've done it.
Guest:It's fucking over.
Guest:It's over.
Guest:And also, sometimes with a brother or two that I may be talking at a time, I remember coming up with this phrase of which then they will occasionally refer to it.
Guest:I'll say, the resident curse.
Guest:I've always thought about a resident curse.
Guest:This is when I saw that Coen Brothers movie that starts, a serious man, and it starts out like in a shuttle or whatever, and there's that...
Guest:that dybbuk or whatever at the beginning that i guess apply that yeah whatever that you know sort of maybe cursed the generation of that family even i would this before i had any sense of that you know of that thinking of it that way i just thought there was some kind of a and and so the resnick curse had had finally you know the the chickens yeah and and it was and here's where the fucked up thing with someone like mine centuries old
Guest:I can imagine so many bad things that are not reality.
Guest:My wife, if she said, has said one thing to me, one phrase the most over all the years we've been together, it's this.
Guest:Why would you think like that?
Guest:You know, like it's always that.
Guest:And but the thing is, here's where that and sometimes I can think, you know, maybe it is my brain that's thinking I'm out of the business, I'm this or that.
Guest:But what happens when in the case of Cabin Boy?
Guest:it was really this is not my imagination i no one did want to hear from me for a while i remember and i just this comes back you asked me when my child was born my daughter and i didn't want a boy i was so happy it was a girl was born about a month before cabin boy came out and i already knew what was going to happen i didn't actually know it would be as bad as it was but i knew that the movie was a bomb and i knew from the testing and i knew that i would not get work
Guest:But now I had a daughter to support.
Guest:So when my daughter was born, I remember being in there.
Guest:My first reaction to seeing her was just utter fear because I realized I have this new responsibility that I've never, you know, and I don't know what.
Guest:Now, it's interesting.
Guest:You fantasize and you think, well, so what's the worst going to happen?
Guest:You're never going to be homeless.
Guest:You'll move to Harrisburg or a town like Harrisburg and you'll rent a little apartment.
Marc:apartment at least you won't be at least you won't be homeless and that's that's what i and that was my that's what my safety net was you know what i mean but but in your mind i'll be miserable you know right in your mind though that safety net and i and i did that too when when everything went off the skids for me is that that plan b or that safety net it's vague and it's you know at its root horrendous
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It is horrendous.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it actually doesn't give you much comfort.
Guest:It only makes you realize that your worst thing is like I have to live in a homeless shelter with my family.
Guest:But I think, OK, well, at least I know I can take that off the table.
Guest:But, you know, that makes you feel good for about a second.
Guest:Then you realize.
Marc:But what's the job?
Marc:Right.
Marc:What's that?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, like, it's like, okay, I come from a certain, like, I've done enough things.
Marc:But my problem was, like, at 45, 50, like, I'll just stop and, like, and I'll get a job.
Marc:Doing what?
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, that's the thing is.
Guest:That's what I'm also.
Guest:I feel that's, you know, occasionally you do feel lucky.
Guest:And I realize I make a living doing literally the only thing I can do.
Guest:That's all I can do.
Guest:There's nothing else.
Marc:But then what happened?
Marc:You did SNL for a while?
Guest:No, that was one.
Guest:This is in the dark years after Cabin Boy.
Guest:Chris went to SNL for probably what must have been one of the worst seasons ever.
Guest:And it was, I didn't want to work there.
Guest:I was still embarrassed about Cabin Boy.
Guest:I didn't even want to be seen.
Guest:This is, I think, about a year after.
Guest:But Chris, somehow I went up and met your buddy, Lorne.
Guest:And I needed to make a little money, but I knew I did not want to work there.
Guest:And I'm thinking the whole thing about, oh, they write overnight?
Guest:Yeah, I don't think so.
Guest:I'm not going to fucking, you know.
Guest:And the show was not good that season.
Guest:The cast was really big.
Guest:The guys like Farley and Sandler were on the way out the door.
Guest:They were on weekends going to shoot movies and then coming back.
Guest:And it was a very depressing vibe up there.
Marc:Yeah, he was trying to put together the following season is when I auditioned, I think.
Guest:Yeah, and he was, you know, Lorne, to his credit, I mean, those guys like Don Ohlmeyer and Littlefield, they had him out the door.
Guest:I mean, they were – and it was – you never would have thought at that time that Lorne would survive, and it's amazing.
Guest:He did – not only did he survive, look where he is now.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:I'd never – it was not in me to –
Guest:I never like I said I never wanted to be in the business anyway so I never chased anything for big money I've always been I to me it was always about the work you know although sometimes you have to I mean especially this post cabin boy years I was taking money jobs because I had to do it I don't think there's any shame in that I've done that you got it I mean it happens and you just you just hope it doesn't work out
Guest:in a way yeah a little bit yes yeah right especially like that i mean the first job i got by the way was uh was writing a script the guy did about a guy that uh turns into a dog and he said yeah and there's scenes where he's drinking out of the toilet that's the type of job i had what was that it was um i forget the name of it and by the way the guy who gave me the job i'm the the producer god bless him because you know it was uh in that year after cabin boy were doing nothing didn't you write death to smoochie
Guest:Yeah, that was, that's one of the, again, the scripts that, you know, that, and there's one I did called Numbers that Nora Ephron ended up, I mean, those movies did not come out the way that I pictured it.
Guest:The writer is not, is king in television, but unless you're a writer-director, you have to expect this.
Guest:And when I sold those scripts, they were good sales, you know what I mean?
Guest:You give it, you got to know, you're losing control.
Marc:You're okay with that now in a way?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can handle it?
Marc:No, but doing it that way, knowing that this is... No, I don't think I'll do it that way.
Guest:Look, here's all I want.
Guest:I want to make a comfortable living.
Guest:And the thing is, I'm living in New York City, though, so that's not like, you know, you got to bring in some money.
Guest:A comfortable living...
Guest:doing what I want with some little sidesteps into some money jobs or things like that that, you know, might be enjoyable to work on or something.
Guest:But mostly it all comes back to subsidizing myself to if I'm going to write another book or if maybe I'm going to write a screenplay, a small movie, and I'm, you know, talking to a producer that I like that there might be a shot there.
Guest:I might give that one more chance, the movie thing, because I love movies, but it's harder than ever now when you think about getting something really cool.
Guest:It's got to be a small movie.
Marc:But you're okay?
Guest:In what state?
Guest:I'm great, Tom.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm great.
Guest:No, Mark, I'm a million dollars.
Guest:Everything's perfect now.
Guest:You mean okay what?
Marc:I mean, but you're making a living.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'm fine.
Guest:I'm that way.
Guest:No, but it's always a... I don't need a lot.
Guest:It never did.
Guest:But then there's other things you think, oh, wow, wouldn't it be nice to have a house at the beach?
Guest:That's another thing.
Guest:But part of me is like, you know, I...
Guest:How many people own more than one fucking house?
Marc:I have a really good- No, but see, but I think that too, and it's a fantasy I have, but it's like, who's going to take care of it when I'm not there?
Marc:And where is there going to be problems with the house?
Guest:That's what happened to me.
Marc:What if I don't go there?
Guest:I had a country house that sort of imploded.
Guest:They tell you, and you realize you have the money for the house and everything.
Guest:What they don't tell you, and I remember checking out, so I'm going to get this country house, my accountant.
Guest:Yeah, no, you can do it.
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:Sure.
Yeah.
Guest:It's about upkeep.
Guest:You can't walk away from that.
Guest:Some people just don't give a shit.
Marc:People like us are just designed to self-generate and manage what we can manage.
Marc:Because then if you hire people, then you're like, who's that guy?
Marc:How's he going to fuck me?
Guest:I don't know, man.
Guest:You're probably the same way.
Guest:The money and jobs that I've turned down over the years far exceeds...
Guest:And there's so many ways I couldn't make money.
Guest:There's so many ways that things that I just couldn't do.
Guest:In fact, when I when get a light, I hated living out here because I, you know, after being at Letterman, after get a life was over.
Guest:Yeah, that's it for me in L.A.
Guest:Even though later I did like a stand on Larry Sanders.
Guest:And there were some other jobs I lived.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:Never thought I'll tell you that in a second.
Guest:But anyway, but it was it was.
Guest:But I never you know, when I moved back to New York, I knew that was a choice.
Guest:My agent said, you know, you're going to cut your options down.
Guest:And it was like, well, that's the trade off because I have to live in New York.
Guest:And so it's about, you know, like, so I still turn down shit and it's whatever.
Guest:Yeah, it's about the work.
Guest:It's always been, but I don't want to be poor.
Guest:And if anyone wants to give me a shitload of money for something that I'll be happy to take it.
Marc:Larry Sanders is a very well-expected show.
Marc:That must have made up a little bit for Cabin Boy.
Guest:Well, like everyone else, I love that show.
Guest:That's one of the greatest shows ever.
Marc:So you came in after it was rolling.
Guest:It was rolling.
Guest:Actually, it was the final season, and I was happy to do it.
Guest:Do you love Gary?
Guest:I would have preferred to stay a fan of the show rather than working on it.
Guest:You know, I didn't never, you know, I actually, I think Gary and I are so, you know, Dave to me is the guy that I, it was so, it's so clicked, you know, our relationship.
Guest:Gary's a completely different sort of guy.
Guest:So there was not that, I did not have a similar feeling.
Guest:He's a very different guy than Dave is.
Guest:And it's his show and he has a way of running it.
Guest:And it was not, you know, I had some fun there, but for the most part, it was the right, you know, the fact that it was just whatever, we did 10 or 11 episodes, that was...
Guest:That felt right to me.
Guest:I had my fill.
Guest:It was the end of the season.
Guest:But it was, yeah, whatever.
Guest:What can I tell you?
Guest:I've had better times other places, but in retrospect, I guess it wasn't so bad.
Guest:If you feel like you can't really contribute at the level that you think you're capable of, it's not fun.
Guest:And if a place makes it a little difficult to do that and...
Guest:You know, Gary is the, you know, he's the guy.
Guest:It's his show.
Guest:He's been doing it.
Guest:And so it was, I'd heard this.
Guest:I knew I had other friends who had worked there over the years, you know, so I sort of knew what I was getting into.
Guest:But I'd met Gary a couple times.
Guest:I know what Gary is.
Guest:He's another guy.
Guest:I mean, he's not like me, but there's some, you know, some fucked up things about both of us that I'm sure I could...
Guest:And I felt like for a while, like, you know, there was a point that, you know, I was getting along with them pretty good.
Guest:And it was – but then once we got into the thick of things, then everything changed and it felt like, you know, it was – you know, we were in battle and the battle was going very badly.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And it was – and I think it was –
Guest:Maybe that's Gary's process.
Guest:I think maybe things have to be made to be a little harder.
Guest:They're hard enough as it is, but even harder for... That's just his process, the way it works.
Guest:The way to thrive at a show like that, I think, is to be a creative consultant where you're just coming in maybe one or two days a week and you're not part of the actual militia.
Guest:That's the tough part.
Marc:So what are you working on now?
Guest:Right now, I'm going to write another book.
Guest:There is a... A memoir?
Guest:No, I think I'm done with that.
Guest:I might write some one-offs for magazines or something.
Guest:I love the book.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:If someone like you likes that, it makes me feel great.
Marc:And the laughs are surprising.
Marc:Not in the way that, like, I'm surprised you make me laugh, but I'm surprised at what I'm laughing at.
Marc:Like, you know, there are things that are really funny, and I'll laugh at those, but, like, for some reason, there are weird beats in the book that just killed me.
Marc:I don't know that you would look at them and go, like, that was the hilarious part, but there's just something about your timing.
Marc:I guess I relate to it so much, the strand bag bit.
Marc:Like, I have things like that.
Marc:They're usually, like, shoes.
Marc:I just, like, I get it.
Guest:And I don't think it's like an OCD thing.
Guest:I am someone who very much likes a few things that I'm not apt to change.
Guest:I dress the same way that I've dressed in sixth grade.
Marc:But that's like what magical objects are.
Marc:You invest them.
Marc:They have something important in maintaining the continuity of your life.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's absolutely true.
Guest:And what you said is true.
Guest:You can change.
Guest:And absolutely, the thing about try to be a nicer person, try to help people more, that's what you can do.
Guest:But fundamentally, I know at this stage of the game that...
Guest:The things that are wrong with me, and it is a mental illness, it can be helped a little bit, but you can't really change who you are.
Guest:My thing is I've never been, I think for the most part, I'm a pretty decent person when it comes to other people, although I can get pissed off.
Guest:I hate when people fuck things up.
Guest:I hate incompetence.
Guest:And I hate people who are just wrong or bad people, especially I don't know if you ever had anyone like there's a couple of people in my life of genuine narcissists.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Narcissists, almost borderline or possibly a sociopath.
Guest:And finally, you know, that all gets blurred.
Guest:Those people are the worst.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Especially when they're successful.
Guest:Um, yeah, but you know, the good thing about me is anyone that I know who's a, who's a narcissist, especially if it was a real narcissist.
Guest:I don't know about you when it comes to jealousy.
Guest:We're all jealous, you know, about jealousy, especially when he comes, of course, look, what the fuck are we talking about?
Guest:But here's how I am about other writers or anything like who I might know who might be doing better.
Guest:I honestly am never jealous of success or money.
Guest:I am only jealous of the quality of the work.
Guest:And thankfully, the couple of people that I might have a problem with that maybe have done well or this and that, I have no respect for their work.
Guest:I don't think their work is good.
Guest:So therefore, I don't have jealousy.
Guest:If they did some amazing work, that is my thing.
Guest:I don't give a shit how rich or
Guest:so you're actually jealous for creative reasons to create that's all that's ever mattered but then are you able to enjoy it like you know if they do amazing work and you're jealous of it are you no i'm not that's i'm not that you mean if someone that that did would i be able to enjoy the good work that someone who i thought oh this narcissist no i'd be like crying i'd be awful i don't even want to watch it and the thing is i'm honest i would not even be able to convince myself that it's a piece of shit it would be like
Guest:motherfucker it's good so holy shit so he's actually creatively better than me that that's I've not run into that by the way so I'm only talking about people that I know who I think are not good people people that I don't know it's not like I feel that way about the Coen brothers I don't know them it's like I can love their movies you know
Marc:Well, here's what I have to say that I think it's not from wisdom.
Marc:It's just from observation that, you know, this this idea that that fundamental wiring cannot change, but you can take actions and open your heart now more and become a good person.
Marc:But all those things that you think will will not change.
Marc:Fortunately, with age and time will make you just a caricature of yourself.
Marc:So no matter how menacing they may have been at one time, eventually you just get other people are going to be like, oh, yeah, it's kind of silly now.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I do feel, as you said, I think a little bit mellowing, although there's times I feel not at all.
Guest:I'm absolutely better than I was.
Guest:I think I started to feel a little bit better in my 40s.
Guest:And also, it sounds awful.
Guest:I hope that I'm healthy.
Guest:I hope I live a long life.
Guest:But one, I have to die before anyone around me dies.
Guest:That's important.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Maybe you should write that down somehow.
Guest:And I also am taking some comfort in the fact that, you know, I'm closer to the end than I was all those other, in a weird way, I don't have a death wish, anything like that.
Guest:But I'm feeling if the human life, you know, span or expectancy is, you know, 80 some years now or something like that, I think that's just about right.
Guest:If they said, no, we can, there's this pill, you can go to 125, I wouldn't take the pill.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:if I'm lucky enough and I hope I am healthy enough to live a normal life expectancy I'm happy with the number of years I'm good well look dude I love you it's a good talk and it is a pleasure to talk to you and meet you I'm glad you like the book that means a lot to me thanks buddy powerful funny love that guy
Marc:Not the most comfortable guy in the world, but definitely hilarious and brilliant.
Marc:As usual, go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Get some merch for some Christmas presents.
Marc:We'll have new posters up there.
Marc:The remixed music on today's show is done by DJ Copley.
Marc:Our theme music is by John Montagna.
Marc:Again, happy Hanukkah.
Marc:Again, go to epics.com if you need information on how to watch my special more later.
Marc:It premiered on Friday.
Marc:I don't know who watched it.
Marc:A lot of people are asking if they can watch it elsewhere.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I know that it will be on Hulu in 90 days.
Marc:I know that I'm proud of it.
Marc:I hope it gets to people.
Marc:I know you can go to epics.com to check out where you can get it and how you can get it.
Marc:I know you don't all have epics, but someday you will see it.
Marc:I promise you will see it, and it will remain timeless.
Marc:So, what?
Marc:Guitar?
Marc:I can play a little.
Marc:Hanukkah guitar?
.
.
.
Guest:guitar solo
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives!