Episode 66 - Brendon Burns
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also... Eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Guest:Okay, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fuckineers?
Guest:It's me, Mark Maron.
Marc:You're listening to WTF because you downloaded it.
Marc:And I couldn't be more happy that you did.
Marc:If you're listening to this on Thursday, April 22nd, I am already in Portland at the Bridgetown Comedy Festival.
Marc:Tomorrow night, that's Friday, April 23rd, will be a live What the Fuck taping at the Mount Tabor Theater at 6 p.m.
Marc:Go to BridgetownComedyFestival.com for information and tickets.
Marc:I will get you some stuff.
Marc:I'm going to bring some stuff.
Marc:I mean, I have it there now.
Marc:You know what I'm saying.
Marc:Obviously, I'll be doing a lot of other shows up there as well.
Marc:So check the site, BridgetownComedyFestival.com.
Marc:But also, for you New York what-the-fuckers, next weekend...
Marc:Next Thursday, Friday, and Saturday at Comics in New York, that's comicsny.com, C-O-M-I-X-N-Y.com, Janine Garofalo and myself will be doing the shows on Friday and Saturday, two shows each night.
Marc:On Thursday, there is a live WTF with Greg Giraldo, Morgan Murphy, Tom Shalhoub, Marcellus Hall, but I'm here to tell you about a deal.
Marc:If you go there now for the Friday and Saturday shows and use the promo code MMJG, you'll get $10 off the ticket price on any of those shows.
Marc:There's also a deal there where you can get a package deal with a What the Fuck taping and one of the shows on Friday or Saturday.
Marc:So go to comicsny.com, C-O-M-I-X-N-Y.com and check that shit out.
Marc:Use the MMJG promo code and get that discount.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:I think I shit my pants.
Marc:I haven't done that in a while.
Marc:That's justcoffee.coop, which you can get at wtfpod.com.
Marc:I do have things to talk about.
Marc:I'm excited about today's show.
Marc:We've got Brendan Burns on.
Marc:He's a dude, Australian, works primarily in England.
Marc:a known provocateur and edge walker i've met him twice i've not seen his comedy but i know that we're kindred spirits and i'm looking forward to having him here in the garage so i hope you enjoy that he's sort of a well-known cat you know on the international scene you should check that shit out but more importantly i think i hurt my back today you know how i did it here let me tell you how i did it sleeping
Marc:what the hell is that about is that an age thing i don't have a bad back but i woke up and i could barely walk i hurt my back sleeping it's not because of the bed i've been sleeping on that bed i don't know what the hell it is but now i got a bad back so what do i decide to do i'll tell you what i decide to do i can't wait to go
Marc:I have to go to Ikea to get a new table to put my mixer and my mics on.
Marc:I'm going to put a desk in here.
Marc:I'm going to make the garage a little more studio-like.
Marc:Don't get worried.
Marc:It's not going to ruin the integrity of the podcast if I don't have more clutter surrounding me.
Marc:I don't know if you can relate to this, but if I'm busy and I'm doing things I want to be doing and things seem to be going okay, I'm actually...
Marc:elated about how things are going there's this little part of my brain that is just sitting there crouched maybe smoking maybe he's got a working a toothpick and his stupid little teeth going you're gonna fuck it up something the other shoe's gonna drop it's gonna get fucked up you wait just sitting there saying that to me and then you know crosses a line because eventually he starts saying you know what i'm gonna fuck it up i'm gonna fuck it up for you and
Marc:And then I have to have this struggle where I'm like, don't let that guy take over.
Marc:You know what that looks like.
Marc:You've got enough chaos just managing your shit.
Marc:Why create other kinds of chaos just because that little turd wants to?
Marc:So now I'm in this hand-on-hand combat with this freaky demon inside of me, this problem that just sits there like, okay, I'm getting up.
Marc:I'm getting up.
Marc:You know what I'm going to do first?
Marc:I'm going to fuck up your back while you're sleeping and make it difficult for you to do what you're doing.
Marc:I don't know if he had anything to do with that, but I'm speculating.
Marc:So I decided I got to go to Ikea today because I'm going away tomorrow.
Marc:And get these two desktops and these two desks.
Marc:I got to get some chairs so the guests that I have in here don't have to sit on these wooden chairs that are old IKEA chairs, but they're supposed to be outside.
Marc:I'm just trying to make it a little more comfortable in here.
Marc:So I drive to IKEA, which isn't that far from me.
Marc:I don't have any big problem with IKEA.
Marc:It's a little overwhelming.
Marc:Not unlike Home Depot.
Marc:I do wish that they had a room that was properly furnished with some cots.
Marc:They have those.
Marc:They have a sales floor.
Marc:But they should literally have a room for people like me that go in and within five minutes, I'm so overwhelmed by the possibilities that I don't even know what the fuck I want.
Marc:And I really got to take a nap.
Marc:They don't have that room.
Marc:I guess you could just do it anywhere, but I didn't do that.
Marc:So I knew exactly what I wanted.
Marc:So I'm moving through all the umlauts and weird names like Scourge and Glurmskosch.
Marc:You know, you go to Ikea enough times, you really start to believe that Sweden must be this perfect place where there's no clutter and everybody lives in, you know, glorious...
Marc:Cube sized boxes that are minimally decorated with very tasteful, stripped down, fine lined with slight curves furniture and whatnot.
Marc:You just feel like the Swedes perhaps like, you know, even when they shit that they look in the toilet and go, oh, it is so it's it's perfect in its design.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know how they talk, but I started to resent them for the fact that, you know, I'd like to be there, but I would make a mess of it.
Marc:I get to a point where if something, you know, if a room's too perfect, you know, something's got to spill.
Marc:The guy inside of me, the demon is, I'm going to fuck it up.
Marc:Like, as soon as I get a new table or a new car, it's like, I'll fucking smack it into something.
Marc:I'll dump some coffee on my new shoes.
Marc:I'll scratch the fucking tabletop I just bought within days.
Marc:And then I have to negotiate with the stupid little fuck inside me and say,
Marc:All right, dude, I know what's going on here.
Marc:I know you made me do that, but you know what we just did?
Marc:We just made that ours.
Marc:That's now ours.
Marc:We've marked it.
Marc:It's got authenticity.
Marc:It's now mine because I fucked it up.
Marc:That's how I rationalize that.
Marc:But I'm in Ikea, and I'm going through the place, and I'm getting what I need, and my back is fucked up, and I know that I'm going to have to go down to the main loading dock area and do my own loading.
Marc:So I do that, and I'm starting to buckle.
Marc:I'm sort of like, shit, I don't even want to do this today.
Marc:Why don't I just buy some napkins and another one of those bags and get it?
Marc:Maybe get a meatball.
Marc:But I'm like, no, dude, you're here.
Marc:Let's do this.
Marc:And then the guy inside me is like, fuck it.
Marc:Just get out of here, man.
Marc:Just get out.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:You don't even want this shit anyways.
Marc:You can use what you have.
Marc:What do you got to spend?
Marc:$300 on shit.
Marc:Because it's $300 on stuff that would cost me a fortune.
Marc:That's the one great thing about IKEA is that it's disposable.
Marc:It's like H&M.
Marc:Wow, this is really pretty.
Marc:And if it turns to shit in six months, I didn't really lose that much.
Marc:So I'm like, I'm on the line with my tow cart or whatever the hell it is, my giant shopping cart with wheels.
Marc:And I've got, you know, I did get some napkins.
Marc:I got some hangers.
Marc:I'm there with it all.
Marc:And I haven't hurt my back too badly.
Marc:So I load all this shit up and...
Marc:I realized I don't know if it's going to fit into my car.
Marc:I got to go check to see if the hole in the trunk that slides it through to the back seats, you know, when you push the back seats down, you got that hole in the trunk of the Camry where you slide the thing in so it can stay in there.
Marc:I don't know if that's long enough.
Marc:So I pull out of the line.
Marc:I tell the guy at the thing, you know, can you watch my car for a minute?
Marc:I got to go check this shit out.
Marc:So I go out to my car, open the trunk.
Marc:I'm measuring the hole with the paper tape measure that I got to measure the tables at Ikea with my little pencil.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, great, man.
Marc:33 inches.
Marc:It's going to fit.
Marc:And I shut the trunk and I realized, fuck, I just shut my keys to my trunk.
Marc:And I didn't, you know, there's nothing you can do at that moment.
Marc:I mean, what am I going to do?
Marc:Jump up and down?
Marc:Am I going to freak out?
Marc:Am I going to hit the car?
Marc:Am I going to break the window?
Marc:Am I going to yell at somebody else?
Marc:It was one of those moments of complete what the fuck surrenders where you just like, you don't even have the energy.
Marc:To go, what the fuck?
Marc:You just kind of go, what?
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Oh, God damn it.
Marc:It's a complete surrender to being a complete idiot.
Marc:And it's a beautiful moment.
Marc:So then I'm like, well, what do I do?
Marc:I only had one person I could call.
Marc:So I call my friend and she's got a truck.
Marc:So it's starting to look pretty good because she's around.
Marc:It's nice knowing a chick with a truck.
Marc:She's like, all right, I'll come help you out.
Marc:So now...
Marc:I get a twofer in a way.
Marc:She's going to come with the truck and it's not going to be any problem at all to load the shit into a truck.
Marc:And I just got to come back and get my car.
Marc:And she's going to help me with this stuff because I'm an old man that hurts his back while he's sleeping.
Marc:And she's going to help me put the shit in the truck.
Marc:So it all worked out.
Marc:So I bought it.
Marc:I put the shit in the truck.
Marc:We dropped it off the house.
Marc:She drove me back to my car and I drove home.
Marc:And now I'm sitting on a cushion.
Marc:That's the other thing I bought.
Marc:I bought one of those little cushions that you put on the chairs so you can sit comfortably.
Marc:Because with my old man bad back that I hurt sleeping, I'm now sitting my not hurt ass on a nice soft cushion on my hard wood chair that I stained myself and bought at a thrift store that used to be in a school.
Marc:I was amazed that I didn't lose my shit, you know, given that a bad back and given that I was at Ikea and given that I had a thing full of shit that I really need to get done.
Marc:And I locked my keys in the trunk and I couldn't even get through the WTF.
Marc:I surrendered before I even made it to the WTF.
Marc:I think that's a sign of progress.
Marc:And I'm okay right now.
Marc:I think I'd like to go to Sweden, though.
Marc:As perfect as they all seem in their little cube-like rooms with their perfectly designed furniture and their umlauts and their strange words.
Marc:I imagine that most of the women there are gorgeous.
Marc:But I imagine that they all have just a patch of...
Marc:perfectly blonde pubic hair not that that's my thing but yeah i'm just speculating here but the one thing i do know is that's where my snooze comes from so all of them got fucked up brown teeth and receding gums so i know your weakness sweden
Marc:Well, that's the one thing I noticed about you right away when I saw the posters in Edinburgh and I didn't know you and somebody had told me about you and someone had told you about me that we would get along and that we were kindred spirits.
Marc:I had that immediate resentment you had.
Guest:I don't see.
Guest:I'm probably the polar opposite of you.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:It's just like I saw the posters and I'm playing for 15 people in Edinburgh.
Marc:You got posters.
Marc:You got the show, the festival.
Marc:There's posters of you in costumes, on a crucifix, wearing blackface, doing all this shit.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, that guy's a P.T.
Marc:Barnum.
Marc:He's certainly a drug addict.
Marc:Look how much attention that fucker needs.
Marc:The poster was part of the sting.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Well, before we get into that, I need to say that since then, you know, we've talked a few times and we get along fine, but that's the nature.
Marc:And it happens on this podcast where I have to sort of sit straight.
Marc:I apologize if I came off as anything more than congenial.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I recognized it immediately as exactly the way I am in America.
Guest:Oh, it's all right.
Guest:You know, it's like, oh, you know who I am?
Guest:Oh, you know what I do?
Guest:Right, then let's move on.
Guest:Yeah, because I've got a whole town to impress.
Guest:You can fuck off.
Guest:Can we swear on this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is, by the way, folks, Brendan Burns.
Guest:At festivals, we refer to everyone we meet as next.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, right.
Marc:Got no time.
Marc:Busy networking.
Marc:But at those festivals, you got to hand out your own flyers.
Marc:You got to do your own pitch.
Marc:It grounds you.
Marc:I guess it grounds you.
Marc:You have to be the guy out in front of the sideshow tent and also the freak inside.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I think our careers are comparable.
Guest:We're working.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Comics like us.
Guest:Critics like us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're not too marketable.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It's like I say, it's like a half a house.
Marc:My CD trilogy is not sold out.
Marc:Tickets still available and final engagement.
Marc:So I-
Marc:I know where you're coming from.
Guest:Hey, man, you ever want to depress yourself and find out exactly how many fans you haven't?
Guest:Release a second DVD.
Marc:I haven't released a DVD.
Marc:I released three CDs, and I know exactly who my people are.
Marc:But they're very loyal.
Marc:They are.
Marc:And they like us.
Marc:They feel passionate about us.
Marc:Yes, and they need us.
Marc:And I'll tell you, if we do too well, they're going to fucking hate us.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And then we better hope the people that don't know us well enough to hate us.
Marc:our new people you know don't uh abandon us because we'll never get the other ones back so we're in an awkward position brendan we can't sell out but you know that's what people have always said to me oh i can't wait to sell out i'm not yeah it's it's easy not to sell out when no one's offering to buy it afford me the opportunity exactly i've you know i've gotten several requests for you and then i had to explain to people it's like he's not here
Guest:What do you want me to do?
Guest:They under the impression that we're that tapped into the collective unconscious.
Guest:I could just look up into the air.
Guest:Oh, how's Mark doing?
Marc:Yeah, just send my special Brendan Burns antenna up there.
Marc:What are your impressions here?
Marc:We had a brief conversation in the living room there about New York.
Marc:I'm going to have to defend my country a little bit because it seems that... I love New York, but I'd kill myself if I lived there.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I don't think it would make me a better comic either.
Guest:Because it doesn't lend itself to being a well-rounded human being.
Guest:How do you figure?
Guest:It's an urban center.
Guest:It's an international city.
Guest:Oh, the thing that spun me out the most, all that shit coming out of the ground, that steam.
Guest:Do you know what that is?
Guest:That's the byproduct of all the air conditioning.
Guest:And so coming from, like I still have some of my sensors left.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I walked through it.
Guest:I saw people just, you know, wandering through it just willy-nilly.
Guest:And I've never been more conscious of something entering my lungs because it's the byproduct of all the air conditioning.
Guest:That's dead skin tissue, human fibers and clothe fibers and breath.
Guest:And I literally, I could feel like a thousand souls.
Guest:I felt like Freddy Krueger with children's faces in my guts as it would just, I was like, I swear I tasted teeth.
Guest:You might have.
Guest:What are you, pussy?
Guest:I thought you were a tough guy.
Marc:You live in New York for a while.
Marc:You adapt, man.
Marc:I mean, and where did you get this idea?
Marc:Where did that come from that it's what's coming out of the air conditioner?
Marc:Where did it come from?
Marc:Did you make that up?
Guest:I've never heard that before.
Guest:My girlfriend is a very, very studious person and does like a lot.
Guest:She's a researcher for The Times.
Marc:For the Times in England?
Guest:Yeah, one of the most respected... Yeah, I know what it is.
Guest:...journals in the world.
Marc:So you're telling me that she found out that the steam... She finds out everything.
Marc:The stuff that New York City is belching is somehow equivalent to the smoke that came out of concentration camp chimneys in your mind.
Marc:Yeah, for man, did he?
Marc:A bit, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:all right well okay so that's one criticism but put that aside and and you you're feeling about it was that uh that it that we haven't evolved since rats is that what you're saying that i i it's it's proof positive that people haven't evolved beyond rats except our ability to adapt and god bless new york city because we can take it yeah that's true people cohabitate right up next to each other there's a lot of good art there
Guest:Here's where I'll stand corrected as well and where they are light years ahead in comedy.
Guest:And at first it shocked me was guys address race there way more than they do in the UK and in Europe.
Marc:Yeah, there's a lot of guys that do that.
Guest:But I go back to Europe now and people don't address it.
Guest:And then I look in the crowds and I see the crowds aren't as multicultural.
Guest:And I've been addressing it a lot in the UK now of...
Guest:No one wants to.
Marc:They're not as multicultural here.
Guest:They're as multicultural here.
Guest:The audiences are way more multicultural.
Guest:In New York.
Guest:Because people make it relevant for them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I didn't know the difference between being hateful and being relevant.
Guest:I think it does sometimes go over into the hateful.
Marc:Give me an example.
Marc:You mean here.
Marc:You mean you saw some comics that were taking on race.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you felt some.
Guest:I thought there's some lazy shit being done about Mexicans.
Guest:Just like black guys, white guys, just all, hey, Mexicans, you mow and you steal.
Guest:And I'm like, what?
Guest:Have a subtext.
Guest:At least, please.
Marc:I'll have you know that we are in the barrio now, so don't speak too loud.
Marc:But I know you're on the right side of things.
Guest:I'm on the Latin American side.
Guest:Not only that, Mexicans love me.
Guest:They do?
Guest:I gig in Pasadena.
Guest:I'm the crazy crocodile man.
Guest:And the accent doesn't quite meet, so I've had to go a lot slower.
Guest:The Latin American hybrid English Aussie audibly don't connect.
Marc:Well, that's an interesting point you make, that it seems that once certain racial divides are somewhat transcended, that those races or two races will join forces against yet another race.
Marc:Where all of a sudden racism is forgiven if everyone agrees on the one to be shit on.
Guest:It's like, you know what?
Guest:There's almost an unwritten rule in comedy.
Guest:If a black guy is laughing, it can't be racist.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And so let's get stuck into the Chinese.
Marc:Even if the black guy's deaf and he's laughing at something he's thinking.
Marc:If he's sitting in an audience at a comedy club, it's okay.
Guest:And I stand corrected on that because at first I was going, what is...
Guest:What are you doing?
Guest:But then I went back to England and I looked around and I thought, this has become a white middle class art form and it was a backlash that needed to happen to the rather hateful Bernard Manning end of the pier days of, there were two black fellas.
Guest:There was a nigger and a pucky.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And all that sort of nonsense.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I think what you find here, and I've had this conversation before with other comedians, black comedians as well, is that the alternative venues are very white.
Marc:And I think you would find outside of major cities, even Los Angeles doesn't count for this, but New York really, I think, is the most integrated city that we have here.
Guest:And they are more blunt and honest.
Guest:And some cities in the South as well.
Guest:And the argument that I made back in the UK now is...
Guest:All right, the hateful end of the pier, horrible, racist, hateful jokes that just weren't even true, they were built out of a bubble.
Guest:They're in a bubble built on fear.
Guest:But then if we don't go there and discuss it ever and never acknowledge other cultures, it's still a bubble nonetheless built on fear.
Marc:Built on fear and tradition.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a longstanding tradition of racial contempt in most older cities and countries.
Guest:Well, it's my contention now as well that everyone's doing rape and pedophilia.
Guest:And it's like Sarah Silverman said, didn't she, that we joke about who we're not afraid of.
Guest:So if we've got like a minority hierarchy...
Guest:If we are not willing to discuss black, Asian or Hispanic people, and yet in the UK, they will do pedophilia and rape until the cows come home and disability.
Guest:That means on some insidious level, people think that being black is worse than being raped.
Marc:It's also it also reveals the fact that most people are bullies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that, you know, a bully is somebody that will pick and choose its victims who are not necessarily threatening to them or they don't have to worry about any backlash.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I find that even socially sensitive people, myself included in some moments, have the capacity to be a bully.
Guest:It's just something we do out of insecurity.
Guest:Oh, and I'll tell you, that kind of burgeoning, pushing down, never discuss anything.
Guest:The moment in England, a new underclass appears...
Guest:For instance, the Polish came in with the pound doing so well.
Guest:A lot of Polish workers came in.
Guest:And in the clubs, you heard that venom.
Guest:You heard that venom expressing.
Guest:And a guy would just immediately go, the Polish, they love working.
Guest:And the place is, Ray, look at them square heads.
Guest:The Kosovo refugees.
Guest:I think in order to make it on the oppressed minority list, you have to at least make some money.
Marc:Yeah, but you have to be willing to work for less than the regular guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's what pisses them off, usually.
Guest:At the moment they're allowed to express themselves, they push that button, they push it hard.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And they don't know it's there.
Guest:And I've done a complete 180 after listening to Patrice O'Neill and Opie and Anthony.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so here we have...
Guest:Two groups of guys that are quite openly racist.
Guest:They have racial issues.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:I don't think Patrice is racist per se.
Guest:I think he's probably just a bit of a horrible bloke.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's horribly funny, but he's difficult.
Marc:You can't get a word in edgewise and he will shut you down.
Guest:I love that guy to bits.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:But you don't exist as a human until you've managed to pique his interest and he asks you a question.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've told him before, his face has no manners.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Guest:His face has zero.
Guest:I've introduced him to my face.
Guest:He starts nodding his head.
Guest:Yeah, just like, I'm going to get some pretzels.
Guest:If you can get him to fucking listen to you, you've done an amazing thing.
Guest:Those guys letting their guards down and being honest, I think has done more for race relations about finding out about one another.
Guest:I heard a conversation that was incredible about that guy on the bus beating up the black bloke.
Guest:And they did a show called Comeuppance.
Guest:And it's Patrice breaking it down as the old Vietnam vet punching up the black guy on the bus.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Anthony says, now you have to understand, this is on a bus.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And black people are the master race on a bus.
Guest:And Patrice is pissing himself laughing.
Guest:And then Opie made the misapprehension that a lot of people, that a lot of white people would have thought.
Guest:So because he was being honest about what a lot of white people would have thought was, bet you the next thing you hear is that that white guy is dead.
Guest:And Patrice goes, no, you out of your mind, black people love that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you hear them immediately go, really?
Guest:I did not know this.
Guest:And their conversations are so raw and open and honest through comedy that I actually, I've changed my tune completely.
Guest:And I think it's important to go there.
Guest:I think it's a release.
Guest:And I think it lends itself to an understanding.
Guest:If we exclude anyone in society from having a sense of humor about themselves, we exclude them.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's right.
Marc:But, you know, sometimes they have to take the lead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, certain communities were defined by performers, even the Jews in this country, that once Jews went into entertainment, that when you have a black circuit or you have a Mexican circuit, anytime there's a circuit...
Marc:where now you have an Arab circuit, where you've got comics going out there and performing for specifically their communities that they come from, which gives them, it integrates them into the culture at large, but it also gives them and retains their cultural identity through laughter.
Marc:So they've sort of got to take the lead before a white person goes up on stage and starts stereotyping them.
Guest:Also, great leaps get made, I think, in the art form when a backlash is required.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think actually like, did you see that Martin Lawrence thing?
Guest:No.
Guest:After he got out of rehab or something, he did some tour and he was the stuff he was saying about Arabs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, you are too ready.
Guest:You are too ready to go.
Guest:Let's get them.
Marc:Well, you have to understand that, you know, the blacks aren't without their own racism.
Marc:I mean, the tension between blacks and whites is that, you know, white guilt enables us to say that, well, we sort of deserve it, you know, so that we don't really consider anti-white sentiment in the black community as being racist per se.
Marc:But any community...
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:That's kind of fair enough.
Marc:But any community, especially communities that are struggling for their own identity within a larger country are going to hate the other communities.
Marc:I mean, racism is not there's racial communities that are racist.
Marc:You know, just because we're living in this white paradigm, which is dubious, doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist in other cultures.
Yeah.
Guest:That's a great sentence.
Guest:Just because we're living in a white paradigm.
Guest:I think that's a fantastic song lyric.
Guest:I'm living in a white paradigm.
Marc:Well, you can knock yourself out.
Marc:Write the song.
Marc:The thing that interests me, Brendan, is what you were saying about Britain, because, you know, what I've noticed is that and I haven't really worked there yet.
Marc:I'm going to be working there in late July and early August.
Marc:Oh, they're going to love you for the first time.
Marc:And what I've always assumed is that the intimacy of a country that small and with that much history, there is a certain foundation to the culture there that far transcends anything we can even understand in America.
Marc:But also because it's Europe.
Marc:uh you know you have this this inter-country travel that goes on i mean we have it here in the states and i want to talk a little bit about your idea of what the united states is when you came here because when i hear people talk about it who are coming here it's like you know i'm going to america it's like no you're going to 50 countries yeah that are held together loosely by an idea that's crumbling
Guest:If someone turned up tomorrow and said we're going to make a king of Europe and you've got two choices, both of them would be dead in a week.
Guest:In a week.
Marc:But you do have this, just what you said, that just because in England the pound or the euro was strong and there were jobs to be had, that all of a sudden you have an influx of Polish workers, that's not that far away.
Marc:It would probably be as far away as the Midwest.
Marc:So in my mind, and I think into some American minds, they're like, holy shit, Poland seems like another world.
Marc:But in Europe, there is definitely this traveling between countries that you were able to actually identify.
Marc:The fact that you were actually able to say that you had a Polish influx or what was the other one?
Guest:So do you think there'd be like a Detroit influx when it finally breaks the bank?
Marc:I wish there would be a Detroit influx.
Marc:I mean, I wish somebody would go to Detroit and help that place.
Marc:Oh, mate.
Guest:I will give money to the mayor of Detroit before I give it to a homeless guy on Venice Beach.
Marc:Well, the thing that they're trying to do now in Detroit, from what I understand, is they're literally trying to make the city smaller geographically.
Marc:They're literally going to trim the city.
Marc:I don't know how they're going to do it.
Guest:On the outskirts, it looks like it's already happening, and it's called rust.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But they're literally going to try to bring in the you know, it's never been happened.
Marc:It never happened before in America where they're trying to actually taper the city.
Marc:I don't know what they're going to do with that property or what their plans are, but they're literally talking about we need to make it smaller, not just population wise.
Marc:But I think they're talking literally geographically.
Marc:We're going to have to make what are they going to do with those dilapidated buildings?
Marc:I can't speak to it.
Marc:But I would like to speak to the idea of performing in England and this idea that you talk about something that – one of the things that we don't talk about in this country, you bring up race, but we never even acknowledge class here.
Marc:And usually it's the same conversation.
Guest:Huge there.
Guest:Huge.
Marc:It's the same conversation.
Marc:Race and class are fairly – there's a lot of similar aspects.
Guest:And I'll tell you, I don't want to hear it.
Guest:The thing is I attack white Britain.
Guest:Quite heavily.
Guest:And I will do it through race and preconceptions.
Guest:And I go after... Explain to me a little bit about the class.
Guest:I'm not an outwardly racist or hateful person.
Guest:And in actual fact, because I'm from such a secluded city, I am drawn... You're from Australia.
Guest:Yes, and I'm from Perth, which is the most secluded city in the world.
Guest:I am drawn to people that are different to me.
Guest:Me too, because they seem to have a cultural identity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Can I be part of your group?
Guest:What do I got to do?
Guest:I'm a bit like a black guy in America.
Guest:Andrew Maxwell puts it brilliantly.
Guest:Black people have a sense of curiosity.
Guest:So when he came over here and he was genuinely Irish, they were like, what?
Guest:And they want to ask you questions and find out about you.
Guest:And I definitely feel that way.
Guest:I've always felt intrigued and I don't mind looking stupid or ignorant to find out an answer.
Guest:You know, I'm not afraid of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:there's this kind of there's this undercurrent hint in in white britain of still presumed superiority over everyone else even even other white brits who are the underclass yeah right so if you ask anyone that is you know that isn't like you any questions it's like ah they consider it a lack of manners uh-huh they're like yeah no why would you he's black don't remind him yeah and
Guest:Where are your manners?
Guest:He's drawn the short straw, the poor love.
Guest:And I kind of like pushing that button and playing with that.
Guest:And in turn, we'll get accused as racist when I do.
Guest:They don't realise that I'm going after them.
Marc:But is that something that it seems to me that from what I understand in talking to other performers, I had Glenn Wollin here that that the the underclass historically have been white in Britain.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that the blacks are historically relatively new to that.
Marc:And I think that on some level, is there in your sense of it that you have this aristocratic sensibility that that condescends in its racism in the form of politeness?
Guest:Glenn Wool does the best joke about it.
Guest:He goes, by the way, I'm Canadian, not American.
Guest:And he then makes an impression of the crowd and goes, oh, good.
Guest:He understands these jokes.
Guest:And no one realizes he's making fun of them.
Guest:They actually think he's taking the piss out of himself.
Guest:And it's so funny watching an audience, and he is working them on so many levels with such a simple idea and pulling the rug out from under.
Guest:I think it's brilliant.
Marc:But do the two classes of whites in Britain meet midway on their content?
Marc:Well, let's tell you.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:There's three.
Guest:There's really, really rich?
Guest:Well, not only that.
Guest:They're not even that rich anymore.
Guest:They're just posh.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So the old money, I think they're going for broke.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They haven't invested well.
Guest:They still have property.
Guest:They still have property.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Okay, so there are them.
Marc:They kind of send everybody.
Guest:You don't even see them.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:You don't even see them.
Marc:They're fucking their cousins and guaranteeing the weakness of their genetic line well into the future.
Marc:They are really out there.
Marc:Okay, so that's them.
Marc:And so they're above everything.
Guest:If you read the Countryside Alliance website, the guys that are up in arms about fox hunting, and that is someone that hasn't lived on Earth for some time.
Guest:And it's still an issue.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What would the liberals have me do?
Guest:Have my servants remove cockroaches from my path?
Guest:And you're like, well, you lost my empathy at servants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're still saying servants, mate?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why should the queen bear tax?
Guest:And, you know, I love it when those guys turn up to my gig sometimes when I go out of town.
Guest:Do they?
Guest:Because they're under the impression I work for them.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And they find out real quick.
Guest:I mean, we're talking like England of yore, like a three-toned mustache down to here, like a big, you know.
Guest:They still exist.
Guest:I need to create an image for people.
Guest:I think they got it.
Guest:Cat weasel.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:A big three-tone mustache that goes down past the chin, like really bushy and gray and orange and pink and got some food in it and so on.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And looks like one of those, you know, those archaic Toby jugs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They used to drink beer out of with the pink faces on the front.
Guest:You're going to entertain me.
Guest:I had one guy, he goes, do you feel the need to yell?
Guest:And I went, this is my fucking show, you cunt.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you can freely use that word in England.
Marc:That's one freedom you have over here.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I'm banging because I love.
Guest:Because also on one level, it's where I learn how to do comedy.
Guest:Also, I think this politeness that they want to get around has lent itself to a very gifted use of language and in joke writing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They understand subtext a lot better.
Marc:That's what I always assume, that there's something about, you know, even Australians, even when I was talking to you, that there's something about the use of the English language that transcends whatever we've mustered up here, just even on a street level.
Marc:It's my impression that in England, that because of the history of language and the history of literature and the history of verbal communication in general and storytelling, which I found in Scotland as well, that they are much more able to suspend the short attention span cancer that infects this culture and actually hear a guy out.
Marc:I mean, they can listen and they seem to listen to things on fairly subtle levels.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Uh, but also it lends itself to, there are certain elements out there that feel that intellect has an accent.
Guest:So there are certain elements that because I didn't go to the right school, you know, Glenn's nailed it, you know, Oh, he understands these jokes.
Guest:They will, they will not give you the credit like a Canadian or an Australian for understanding their own work.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Uh,
Guest:Here's a joke that works on two different levels in England and Australia.
Guest:And it's not going to be funny here because I'm breaking it down.
Guest:We do that on this show.
Guest:Yeah, we do that.
Guest:I'm actively going to be so unfunny.
Marc:We get meta on this show.
Marc:We make the sausage.
Marc:We open the door to the back of the butcher shop here.
Guest:I say, you know how I know the sexes are not truly equal?
Guest:I have never, ever met a man who thought being a boyfriend was an adequate replacement for an actual occupation.
Guest:Now, you see, in England and to comics, they will laugh because they reconsider the sentence.
Guest:They reread the sentence.
Guest:So they go, that sounds a bit sexist.
Guest:Oh, hang on.
Guest:He said never.
Guest:There is Judy.
Guest:She fucks it up for all of us.
Guest:And whereas in Australia, they will go, that's a bit sexist, and then decide whether they like that or not.
Marc:Whether they're sexist or not.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:I'm with you.
Guest:Yeah, usually those guys don't ever think it through.
Guest:They're just there for you.
Guest:It's not that Australians can't rethink the joke.
Guest:It's that they won't because they consider it dishonest.
Guest:Well, let me ask you.
Guest:They consider me being dishonest trying to get away with saying something.
Marc:Oh, I see what you're saying.
Marc:Like he's trying to trick us.
Guest:Yeah, it's like, you know what?
Guest:Fucking say it, mate.
Marc:Yeah, just spell it out.
Guest:Just call Judy a bitch.
Guest:We're wasting our fucking time.
Guest:It's hot outside.
Guest:We don't sport.
Guest:You're expecting too much out of it.
Guest:Here's something I've noticed, difference between here and Australia.
Guest:Nationalism is very different.
Guest:And also the UK and I think America are a bit the same.
Guest:In that when I see an American flag or a Union Jack at the front of the house, to me, it just reeks of God and country and we'll kick anyone's ass who fucks with us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whereas in Australia, if you see a flag at the front, it's, we'll beat you at swimming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or somebody died.
Marc:It's a national figure.
Guest:We'll out swim you.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I noticed that when I was in Australia briefly that I like Australia.
Marc:I was in Sydney for two weeks.
Marc:This is long after I was sent home, you know, when I went there originally.
Marc:But I like the idea that there is sort of a national low self-esteem.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In the sense, not low self-esteem, but in the sense of like, we're Australia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, who's going to bomb us?
Marc:We're going to be last on the list.
Marc:We're okay.
Marc:Our place in the world is separate because we're just out here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I haven't lived there for so long that I'm like, I've got a very interesting comic standpoint when I go there.
Marc:But I have to say, I have to qualify this by saying I relate to that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I had a lovely time there.
Guest:Oh, yeah, you were very popular.
Guest:Was I?
Guest:Yeah, I think like Greg Fleet.
Marc:Greg Fleet is an Australian comic who I think I talked about on the podcast about having really, I saw him in Scotland, but he's a durable character.
Marc:He's a durable character.
Marc:him and rick shapiro will come up out of the mire yeah yeah yeah that's right are people familiar with rick shapiro on your i don't know i haven't had him on because i i feel a little tension with rick lately i've known rick for 20 years and uh the last couple times i saw him i i just didn't know i used to have a rule where i i just you know i made it a rule and i made it my a rule for my ex-wife to never give a shapiro your phone number unless you want phone calls at two and three in the morning of people going yeah yeah i got that i can't sleep i need an apple yeah
Marc:I drove him to the Grand Canyon.
Marc:Oh, you drove Rick Shapiro to the Grand Canyon.
Guest:That's the reaction everyone gives me.
Marc:I think I heard about this.
Marc:I'm not sure who I heard it from.
Marc:It couldn't have been you.
Guest:No, it wasn't.
Guest:My girlfriend basically took pity on him and I kind of warned him.
Marc:Rick Shapiro is this character.
Guest:He was making phone calls the entire way, bitching about us in the car.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:To the person on the phone.
Guest:They're playing car games.
Guest:I can't handle it.
Marc:Let's tell the story, and then I'll have to promise to have Rick Shapiro on.
Marc:Rick Shapiro is a character.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I've known him for about 25 years.
Marc:I know his brother, too.
Marc:He's got a twin brother.
Guest:Now, is that true, or are they just pretending, getting away with stuff?
Guest:Why would they?
Marc:They don't even speak to each other.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Have you seen them both in the same room?
Guest:You have.
Guest:You've seen them both.
Marc:I know them both.
Guest:No, you know them both, but have you seen them both together?
Marc:They're both shaped differently.
Marc:Yes, I've seen them together.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah, no.
Guest:I'll tell you a funny story because I sent, what's his brother's name?
Marc:Rob.
Guest:I sent Rob Shapiro.
Guest:He's just as crazy.
Guest:A Facebook message going, I don't think you're real.
Guest:I think you're Rick trying to get away with more shit.
Guest:And he was, who is this?
Guest:How do you make these accusations?
Marc:He said the wrong thing to watch.
Guest:And I was like, sorry, I'm a mate of Rick.
Guest:So it's just a joke.
Guest:I don't even know you and you're making these outrageous.
Marc:We're going to have to have Rick Shapiro on the show because he's definitely a unique bird.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:Did he jump out of the car?
Guest:No, we got to the Grand Canyon and then he started pissing and moaning.
Guest:And I went, look, Rick, I'm not a rich man.
Guest:It's a big deal.
Guest:I'm paying for this lodge and car.
Guest:And he goes, you get your money, Mr. Corporate.
Guest:Yeah, Mr. Corporate Green.
Guest:Mr. Corporate Green.
Guest:Yeah, I'm going, Mr. Corporate Green.
Guest:That's Rick.
Guest:I'm driving a PT Cruiser.
Guest:What are you on about?
Guest:And he goes, screw you, man.
Guest:And then he goes, it's all about you, isn't it?
Guest:And Laura, my girlfriend, goes, no, it's all about you.
Guest:And he goes, you're a bitch.
Guest:And I went, OK, you need to walk away now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You need to walk away right fucking now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I kind of figured later as well, punching Rick Shapiro in the head would just land in to go, well, there's another person that punched me in the head.
Guest:I don't understand why this keeps happening.
Marc:But on the bright side, it might give him 10 new minutes.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So we break up.
Guest:We leave him at the Grand Canyon.
Guest:He's got no, that's right.
Guest:He goes, Mr. Corbett Green, you'll get your money.
Guest:And they're going, that's not the point.
Guest:It's that I'm forking out for this and you're bitching about me on the phone to the car while I can hear you.
Guest:And he goes, screw you, man.
Guest:And then he walks away and comes back five seconds later.
Guest:He goes, give me $17 for the bus.
Guest:Did you give it to him?
Guest:No, I pissed myself laughing.
Guest:And he goes, what kind of person have you left?
Guest:And by the way, we've made up since this.
Guest:So I can tell this story.
Guest:He thinks it's funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then so we drive off.
Guest:We're at the Grand Canyon.
Guest:It's a 12-hour drive.
Guest:We're a mile from the Grand Canyon.
Guest:And we're driving off, and Mack Lindsay was with us and his girlfriend.
Guest:And they're going, I don't know how he's going to get back.
Guest:And I went, never mind that.
Guest:I don't know how he's going to spend eight hours in a lodge without getting arrested or beaten up.
Guest:He's going to walk up to a buffet and go, I haven't got any money.
Guest:Give me a carrot.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A carrot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I feel like we should try to get him on the phone.
Guest:So I then see him two nights later at the improv.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just said to him, tell me you at least saw it.
Guest:And he goes, what do you mean?
Guest:I said, we drove there 12 hours.
Guest:Tell me you at least saw the Grand Canyon.
Guest:And he goes, not with this head.
Guest:And I laughed.
Guest:He said, not with this head?
Guest:Yeah, not with this head.
Guest:We said, look at the stars, Rick.
Guest:And he goes, I'm not looking up.
Guest:It reminds me of my family.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's fucking beautiful, Rick Shapiro's story.
Marc:Now let's take a break and see if we can get him on the phone.
Guest:That'd be great.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:Hey!
Guest:Hey, Rick, it's Mark Maron.
Guest:Yeah, how you doing, buddy?
Guest:How you doing, Brendan?
Guest:How did the Perth gigs go?
Guest:Oh, it went really great, man.
Guest:I miss Australia all the time.
Marc:Rick, we're on, you know, I'm recording this for the podcast, and I was just talking about how you and I haven't talked in a while, and I want to have you on the show, but, you know, are we okay?
Guest:Yeah, it'd be great.
Guest:All right, man.
Guest:I really appreciate that, man.
Guest:So what have you been up to?
Guest:A bunch of things.
Guest:Wait, you mean a date for the podcast or is this it now?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'll have you on again.
Guest:Oh, it's on now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that why you're like, are you okay?
Guest:Are you okay, Rick?
Guest:That's what Mark always does.
Guest:He's like, are you okay?
Guest:Especially if he's with a hot chick.
Guest:He's got to be like, hey, Rick.
Guest:Let me talk to you like you're... Let me paint a picture of you that isn't true.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Oh, I'm sorry.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:You're a pillar of fucking mental health and stability.
Guest:I apologize.
Guest:Rick has an amazing gift for matching the perfect celebrity with the perfect sex act with something that he's wearing.
Guest:He comes up with a sentence like, this jacket's made out of Barry Reynolds jizz.
Guest:And I don't know why, but I find that so fucking hysterical.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Guest:Thanks, buddy, for saying something nice.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I love you, buddy.
Guest:You're a fucking amazing comic.
Guest:No, I got a lot of time for you as well, my friend.
Guest:What about me, Rick?
Guest:What, you got no love for me, Rick?
Guest:What?
Guest:You got no love for me?
Guest:No!
Guest:Did he hang up on you?
Marc:You there, Rick?
Guest:Yeah, he did.
Marc:That's awesome.
Guest:He's big too.
Guest:He's been on Crazy Rick Shapiro.
Guest:But I told you.
Guest:I mean, you have your run-ins with people as well, don't you?
Marc:I've known him for 20 fucking five years, all right?
Marc:And he's like, you know, he's a great guy.
Marc:He's a talented guy.
Marc:But sometimes he's a pain in the ass.
Marc:Oh, good Lord, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, the thing is, is like he says that kind of shit to me and whatever.
Guest:He knows he's doing it as well.
Guest:I think he's more self-aware than he lets on.
Marc:Of course he is.
Marc:You can't be that crazy and still be together on some level.
Guest:You can't be still living.
Marc:So he hung up on me, the bastard.
Marc:We're going to have to resolve that.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:He's fucking howling in the bathroom right now.
Guest:I think he has a game going sometimes.
Guest:Sometimes I've seen him snap.
Marc:So wait, did I lose that round then?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I did?
Marc:I think you did.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Guest:I think you're walking away going, crazy Rick.
Guest:And he's going, there's another guy who thinks I'm crazy when really I'm running the world with my mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you mentioned that I saved your relationship.
Marc:How the hell did that happen?
Guest:Me and my missus, she'll be very pleased that we're together.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, because we listened to your album, Driving Across the Australian Outback.
Marc:The latest one, final engagement?
Guest:It was the earlier one about the trauma bonding.
Marc:I feel like that was on the last one about all the divorce and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, how was that?
Guest:Here's the thing.
Marc:This is where we're comparable.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You're sitting in the only thing I got left.
Guest:No, it's an addictive process, a quick laugh.
Guest:I think modern catharsis means quick fix.
Guest:I think when people go, this is cathartic, I think there's something quite damaging.
Guest:I don't talk about anything painful until I've had time to process it.
Guest:anymore because i've found that i've driven myself to insanity in the past re-performing a show that's very painful for me people laughing and inside i'm going am i okay people are laughing and then i get off stage and then the come down from the the adrenaline of the laugh leaves and there i am going no i still want to fucking die
Marc:Well, you're talking about your show, Burnsy vs. Brendan.
Guest:Which is a trilogy about separating my onstage and offstage personas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, I did Scorching the Earth, which is about my divorce, and I started working on it before the divorce was finalized, when I was still in the middle of it, and I didn't know what to do with the feelings.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:Fucking not bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But here was the most interesting thing about that is I had nowhere else to take it.
Marc:You know, I drained my friends with my pain, my self-pity and my anger.
Marc:And I really was, you know, it was costing me a lot of money and I thought it was completely horrendous and I was brutally hurt and angry.
Marc:And I said, you know, this is costing me a lot of money.
Marc:It better be creative time.
Marc:Yeah, this better be an investment in something to the point where you want to know the truth.
Marc:The woman who I who left me actually got me sober.
Marc:You know, I left my my wife.
Marc:I was a drunk.
Marc:And that and the reason I left initially was because this woman said, I can get you sober.
Marc:I'll take you to meetings.
Marc:We'll get sober.
Marc:And I'm still sober.
Marc:This is 10 years and change.
Marc:So towards the, you know, somewhere towards the last third of my divorce process, I started, you know, really getting hung up on how much money it was costing me.
Marc:And I started asking guys who had been through several rehabs, how much did it cost you?
Marc:And they'd tell me like this amount of money.
Marc:I'm like, all right, so that's about what it costs me.
Marc:Yeah, I started rationalizing.
Marc:But the one thing that the New York- Are you up?
Guest:Are you up?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The time out in New York, they came to see the show when I first started workshopping it.
Marc:And the one line that I'll never forget is they said, the great thing about this show is Marin has no hindsight whatsoever.
Marc:So you really feel like he's going through what he's going through.
Marc:And I was in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And did I feel pain?
Marc:Did I feel whatever?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I'm a guy that I'm comfortable if the type of laughter I get is people laughing uncomfortably at the quality of pain that I'm expressing.
Marc:Now-
Guest:How much are you buying into your own mystique with that?
Guest:Are you afraid that if you're happy, you won't be funny?
Marc:No, because I'm much happier now.
Marc:You've seen it, actually.
Marc:And I actually performed that show in Scotland, and I hadn't done it in months.
Marc:I hadn't done it since the feelings were heavily invested in resolution through being on stage.
Marc:And I did it with the distance that I have now from the situation, and it had never been better.
Guest:And it's a brand new show, isn't it?
Marc:Well, it's like now I can focus on what is truly funny as opposed to just holding an audience hostage as I process and making them squirm, which I don't mind in part.
Marc:But I was able to really see where the beats were and to actually know that this is genuinely funny and it is a human story that people can relate to.
Marc:So you and your girlfriend are listening to me talk about trauma bonding.
Guest:Yeah, and quite often in our relationship, we will go, oh, it's like that Marc Maron bit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that is the replacement of intimacy and expressing true feelings with drama and petty competition.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But we go, oh, we're doing that.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And then we stop.
Guest:Well, I'm glad I helped out.
Guest:Yeah, it's handy.
Guest:So how are you?
Guest:You got through the anger and everything?
Marc:I'm better.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:I don't know why I'm even asking, because when I spoke to you on the phone, you sound like a different man.
Marc:I am a different man.
Guest:And you seem like you're enjoying the sunshine, and you've just got a bit of color in your face, a bit of a grin on your head.
Marc:I'll tell you something, Brendan.
Marc:Sometimes when life finally hands you the big humbler, despite your fight against having any humility whatsoever...
Marc:uh you know you you are you are handed your ass then all of a sudden like a door opens and you realize like i'm glad to have my ass back yeah and and and then you kind of move through life i mean yeah i was upset i was heartbroken but i had a lot of i had a lot of bridges burned before the the the ex-wife and a lot of that came from behavior that that also destroyed my marriage and i think that the fact that she left the first time i've been sober i've been alone i i've had to sort of you know sit in my own fucking skin for any long period of time
Marc:that I think I actually returned to the form that I should have been before I became defensive and resentful and prideful and just an antagonistic pain in the ass.
Marc:I think what happened was I finally grew the fuck up.
Marc:So in that way, taking life as it comes and realizing that it's short and that I might be able to wrench a little joy out of it.
Guest:Travel lends itself to it as well.
Guest:I think first time I came here, I had a massive chip on my shoulder and I messed up.
Guest:And it was, but then you travel back and forth to different countries and you have to be honest with yourself to the extent where people go, when a comment comes up and goes, oh, apparently you're huge in the UK.
Guest:You have to go, no, I'm working.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I have a fan base.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have to be real because I'm getting up in front of four people.
Guest:I got a standing ovation in front of four people, did two hours the other night.
Guest:and you did two hours for four yeah god bless you i've done about an hour and a half for four or five and it was well ben vereen was in the crowd no yeah and he worked with flip wilson who was the very reason i got into comedy get out of here i saw him alive at age nine and i told mr vereen the whole story and he was in stitches and that was what i opened with and
Marc:You played for a crowd of four people.
Marc:Ben Vereen was one of those people.
Marc:And he used to work with Flip Wilson, who inspired you to do comedy when you were a kid.
Guest:Yeah, so you bet.
Marc:Your parents took you to see Flip Wilson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they've regretted that ever since.
Guest:They only knew him from the telly.
Guest:His opening line.
Guest:It's one of the inspirations for the So I Suppose This Offensive DVD, the show you were talking about in Edinburgh that won the thing.
Guest:And I was nine years of age, and it's the first time I'd seen a black guy.
Guest:uh live because i'm from perth yeah well a black american guy and uh 1980 texas all stetson hats all white crowd and he walks out in a tux looking a million bucks he's got a band leader he's got a whole band and everything the whole yeah yeah and uh he walks out and he walks up to his white band leader and goes does your daddy know you work for a nigger it'd kill him
Guest:And the pregnant pause in the room is everyone wondered who the butt of the joke was.
Guest:And then they realized it was them and they received racism and the release of the laugh.
Guest:And I remember at nine years of age, understanding that moment and that pregnant pause.
Marc:You're like, I want my life to be that.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:Adam Bloom once.
Guest:Have you met Adam Bloom yet?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, I can't wait to be a fly on the wall for that meeting.
Guest:That's going to be fantastic.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:What a wonderful meeting of mine.
Guest:Is he a comedian?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I think I did meet him in Edinburgh maybe.
Guest:He always gets upset when I describe him as the greatest joke writer of my generation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because he feels it in first.
Guest:What about my performing?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:See, see, see, you get him.
Guest:And he's not even in the room.
Guest:But it's, you know, I think joke writing is the hardest part of the job.
Guest:And indeed, he's the guy I learned how to do it off.
Guest:I say that with no reservation.
Marc:I try to avoid joke writing at all costs.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Well, I mean, I fall backwards into some sometimes.
Marc:Well, no, I'll do it, but usually it evolves out of the conversation.
Marc:I just look at everything I've done on stage as an evolving conversation about things that are important to me, and I write down what I want to talk about.
Guest:When I manage to write a good joke, I'm thrilled.
Marc:Oh, yeah, when I manage to write one, and then I get them working, I'm like, well, okay, I can do that.
Marc:Now can I talk about this other thing?
Guest:That's why I struggle in clubs as well, because I have no idea what to open with other than, all right, so anyway.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:While you're thinking about what you want to get onto next, you've got a joke.
Guest:My show starts at about 40 minutes in.
Marc:Yeah, mine too.
Guest:The show I'm doing.
Guest:And then it's like, right, on with the show.
Marc:Well, yeah, I don't know what that is about me and you then.
Marc:That, you know, like, it's like I do short sets on TV or I do even a 15-minute set on TV.
Marc:And people who know me, they're like, you know, you can't get a sense of you.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, because it takes about five more minutes for the audience to get to know me.
Guest:My directors have said, like, it sounds like gobbledygook when I'm pitching them the narrative arc of a show.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It's because it would take me an hour to describe it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:My question is that, because the one thing I noticed this about us, and when I'm talking here, I'm not putting you on any sort of hot seat, but I'm just, you know, these are my first instincts, is that
Marc:I've noticed that the last time I saw you, you had a handlebar mustache.
Marc:I've seen a lot of pictures of you.
Guest:Oh, that was for the show.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:It was because I was in a play.
Marc:But have you gone through a lot of different looks?
Marc:Be honest.
Guest:No, I haven't had much of a choice.
Guest:I'm balding.
Marc:Yeah, but before you had the long hair, you had the short hair, you had mustaches.
Guest:I had red, green hair.
Marc:Yeah, I've done that too.
Marc:I watched my Conans.
Marc:I'm like, what is this fashion show?
Marc:And then I realized it's a guy trying to fit in.
Guest:But I was actively trying not to fit in.
Marc:Yeah, I know, but that's what guys who've tried to fit in do.
Guest:You know what I did?
Guest:But that's what we do.
Guest:I based it on the bad guy in wrestling.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I met Roddy Piper recently.
Guest:The first 10 years of my career was based on bad guy psychology.
Guest:I thought if I couldn't be the guy they remembered for being the funniest on the bill, I wanted to make... If I was going down, I was going down in flames.
Guest:I still wanted to be the guy they were talking about the next day.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I would fucking trash the place, petulant...
Marc:Whether it's a good impression or a bad impression, at least that you made an impression.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I understand that.
Marc:So that's that's some sort of extension of like, you know, making about me no matter what.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:OK.
Marc:So my question is, in my own heart, I know that, you know, what I'm hiding is this this incredible vulnerability, this hypersensitivity, this insane self-consciousness.
Marc:That I'm not even sure it's complete insecurity, but I really want to be received.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And if they're not going to receive me with with adulation and like, oh, my God, we've been waiting for this.
Marc:If they receive me with that guy's a fucking asshole, at least I got through.
Marc:At least they're not going to walk away saying, you know, I don't even know, you know, I don't even remember what we just saw.
Guest:And it happens so often every time it's on the line.
Guest:You know, one of the greatest gigs I'll have every year is Glastonbury Festival.
Guest:And I close the comedy tent on the Saturday night.
Guest:There's about 5,000 people there.
Guest:And it's the only time that I feel in front of a big crowd.
Guest:able to be vulnerable and open because I've done I've failed so many times in front of that audience like I handed out 10 kilos of mushrooms in a vain attempt to prove that God existed and I fluffed and I bombed and the whole thing was filmed but people still know about that and come back and saw me come back and go back to the festival which is a difficult place to be after getting clean and
Guest:And I'm getting 200 pounds that night.
Guest:And it's never filmed.
Guest:And it's never... Nothing's on the line ever.
Guest:Nothing is on the line.
Guest:And you did the set of your life.
Guest:It is me.
Guest:But each year, you'll see, like Craig Campbell describes, it's the best gig I'll do each year.
Guest:And it's because there's nothing on... Yeah, there's nothing on the line.
Guest:And I don't feel...
Guest:threatened in that environment and you know people are doing a lot of you know weed and mushrooms and LSD and there's a lot of warmth and ecstasy in the room so you feel the love come forward and it's just it's so easy to give it back
Guest:I am so with you there as well that when it's on the line, we need to work out how to not be afraid to put that orb heart out there.
Marc:Because you can feel it.
Marc:Because the difference between you and I going into that autopilot in that moment is really sort of like, well, I'm either going to do this or I'm going to cry.
Guest:Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Marc:Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Marc:And as much as I want this audience to take care of me, I'm not sure they're gonna be able to handle that.
Guest:Have you ever said that before?
Marc:No.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That is so true, isn't it?
Marc:For me?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:There's a lot of guys that seem to just plow through it without investing much at all.
Guest:Either I do this or I'm going to cry.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:I have been that hard, cynical guy up the back.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Where someone has gone on stage and they've just gotten through a difficulty.
Guest:And it's so funny you should say that.
Guest:I remember there was this act that the sound went down and they were a double act that drew rap.
Guest:And they did some improv.
Guest:And all they did was going, fix the sound, fix the sound, fix the sound.
Guest:And everyone applauded them for getting through that difficult situation.
Guest:And I just thought, you've just patronized them.
Guest:You're just clapping because they didn't burst into tears.
Guest:And yet now when I hear you put it that way, I think, how dare I?
Guest:Every time you get through a show, that's why they're clapping.
Marc:You just don't know it.
Guest:I'm a fucking idiot.
Marc:Well, you know, it's just that, you know, what I have found lately and part of the reason why, you know, I feel better is that, you know, I've turned, I've put a lot of the armor away.
Marc:And I find that, you know, if I get up there and the room changes because I'm a different presence and, you know, if I want to be quiet and I want to be thoughtful, that I put enough time into this racket to own a stage no matter what I'm feeling.
Marc:So I have confidence in that, that no matter what, I'm going to own the stage.
Guest:The only thing I can fake is arrogance.
Marc:yeah but right and the thing is with me is i've been plenty defensive and if i'm if i'm being vulnerable and someone you know takes a shot at me you know that anger is right there yeah i'll turn it in a second yeah and all i can say for us uh is that you know i hope as we get you know more humility and more sober that we at least learn to love ourselves enough to have that trust people really you know do that they do people do like it they they want a piece of it
Marc:No, no, I know, but I'm saying that what I find is that it's my own distrust of self or my own judgment of self that is going to be the difference between putting my heart out there for a full room with some dissenters as opposed to easily doing it with Ben Vereen and three other people.
Guest:yeah yeah you know my the funny thing is in edinburgh i find it easy because it's they've been but you've also gone back there a loyal audience yeah and they're obviously there to see if we're going to you know to to be if we're going to win the fight with ourself or not
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:By the end of part three of the trilogy, when I got clean, only one person, and this is Scotland, no less, only one person went, oh, for Christ's sake, have a beer, mate.
Guest:And the entire audience went, dude, as one.
Guest:Because, you know, they've seen me fuck up shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they've seen me rambling incoherently.
Guest:And I was petrified going back up.
Guest:It was six months clean and it's a very difficult environment.
Guest:And you're crazy and you're raw.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when you get out of rehab, you're very empathetic because you've been sitting in rooms and,
Guest:And you're reading every single line on everyone's face.
Guest:And so the world is an open book to you and you're just like a bag of jelly.
Marc:And you're a giant open sword.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I thought, what's it going to be like in front of my audience?
Guest:Because I was the rock and roll comic.
Guest:Are they going to love me?
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:They were just glad I wasn't dead.
Guest:They couldn't have been more supportive.
Guest:And this is Scottish people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'll tell you something, man.
Marc:I'm glad you're not dead, too.
Marc:And I appreciate you spending this time with me.
Guest:This was fantastic.
Guest:You know, I've learned a lot today.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I think I'll do good shows this weekend off the back of this.
Marc:Well, I hope so, man.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:We're shaking hands.
Guest:We're shaking hands.
Guest:And we're not going to talk after.
Marc:Don't run away.
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:Little international flavor.
Marc:I think I get along good with that guy.
Marc:And I almost feel like we really talked about some shit.
Marc:I know we did.
Marc:Hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:What I'd like to do right now, if I could, besides go back to Ikea.
Marc:is uh thank robert got good fans i really i i love you guys and i'm really grateful for all the emails and i'm happy that you like the show and i'm happy that some people are getting so much out of it but i do want to thank robert because after my uline riff you know when i was interpreting the uline catalog and how it could help me i got a box from uline in my po box
Marc:And I knew, I didn't know what it was, but I knew I didn't buy it.
Marc:And I opened it up and sure enough, it was a pink hard hat from Robert.
Marc:Thank you, Robert.
Marc:I will wear that pink hard hat and I will take pictures of the pink hard hat with me wearing it.
Marc:And I will put them up in the newsletter, in the WTF update that you can get on the mailing list of at WTFpod.com.
Marc:We've got a weekly newsletter going out, a weekly update that I'm putting together with guest information, special deals, funny pictures, stuff.
Marc:I'm enjoying writing it, so if you'd like to get on that list, go to WTFPod.com and do that.
Marc:Do whatever you want there.
Marc:Donate a little money if you want.
Marc:You can always use that.
Marc:I like money.
Marc:It's helping me.
Marc:It's making me feel like I'm actually being paid to do something that I love to do.
Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:You can get that at WTFPod.com.
Marc:And also, please, go to PunchWineMagazine.com for all your comedy news needs.
Marc:Now, I am going to go in the house and put together some IKEA furniture.
Thank you.