Episode 657 - Ira Kaplan / Bob Odenkirk & David Cross
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:In a minute, I have Bob Odenkirk here in the garage, and I have Dave Cross on the phone to talk about their recent Mr. Show-like Netflix adventure that's up.
Marc:Four episodes of that are up.
Marc:I think it's just called With Bob and David.
Marc:It's streaming on Netflix.
Marc:You can watch all the episodes.
Marc:There's also, I believe, an hour-long making of special directed by Lance Bangs, who directs everything.
Marc:Everything that we're all involved in in this little world of alt and other things.
Marc:Him or Bobcat.
Marc:But yeah, I'll talk to Bob and David in here in a second.
Marc:Ira Kaplan, the Ira Kaplan from the seminal alt rock band Yola Tango here momentarily.
Marc:He'll be here.
Marc:I've been meaning to talk to Ira for a while or he's been meaning to talk to me.
Marc:We had some stuff to work out.
Marc:There was not bad blood, but I think I was a little hard on him a little bit.
Marc:I've known him a long time, but not well.
Marc:We've been in the same circles for a bit.
Marc:I need to tell you, you don't already know this.
Marc:You do know it.
Marc:Thursday's Thanksgiving.
Marc:So on that day, we will be running a live WTF that I did at Podfest with radio legends, Fraser Smith and Jim Ladd talking to the old timers, the broadcasters, the guys who without which this would not be possible.
Marc:You got to pay your respects to the dudes that did it for reals on the terrestrial podcast.
Marc:legends Jim Ladd still on Sirius Fraser Smith still on the air here in terrestrial also doing stand-up but Jim Ladd a an important voice in radio through the 70s and 80s and 90s to this day so that's exciting but I won't be talking to you directly
Marc:on Thanksgiving and generally I talk a little bit about Thanksgiving well here's what's going on with me so I know we're leading to the holidays but here's one thing I never quite pick up on and I don't know if you get this but every year like a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving I start feeling irritable I start getting snappy I start you know just kind of losing it a little at my friends and at strangers in my car I mean I do that anyways but I can't quite put my finger on it yet
Marc:You know, I feel like sort of like I'm not grounded.
Marc:I'm a little fucked up in the head and I never know what it is at first.
Marc:And then like a few days before I go to my mother's for Thanksgiving, it fucking hits me.
Marc:The realization that like, oh, of course, this is the beginning of it.
Marc:This is the beginning of the family holidays for a lot of us.
Marc:I mean, some of us do Thanksgiving.
Marc:Some of us don't.
Marc:Some of us do Christmas, whatever.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:So, of course, I'm feeling a little squirrely because what's happening is my inner self is preparing or resisting going back to the source.
Marc:That's it to the source.
Marc:Now, whatever it is, whoever's still alive in your life or whoever you spend time with, if it's parental, it's the source.
Marc:It's not just the biological source, but it's the emotional source, the psychological source, the metaphysical source, the philosophical source.
Marc:It's all of it.
Marc:It's the source of who we are.
Marc:That's the weird thing is that whatever shortcomings your parents had as a kid innately, you either you blamed yourself or you built some sort of sort of routine around it emotionally.
Marc:And it's not a healthy thing, but that's what we go into life with.
Marc:That's what we're given.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And some of us spend a lifetime trying to temper it, trying to manage it, trying to fix it, just to tweak those reactions and interactions.
Marc:So as as not to become
Marc:The worst part of our parents.
Marc:It's just a reality after a certain point.
Marc:I mean, I'm fucking 52 years old.
Marc:I don't know how old you are.
Marc:When we have to go to the source, all that tempering and restraining and inner work that we may have done our entire life is threatened.
Marc:It's so it's freaking out.
Marc:So before you got to go, of course, you're like, oh, God, what's the matter with me?
Marc:Well, you're going you're going to go deal.
Marc:And we innately know that the only person or people that can crumble the structure that we have built in resistance, although temporarily the only ones that can do it, that can just sort of within seconds just break through the walls of our little castles, our little emotional fortresses.
Marc:The only people that can do that is our family.
Marc:They'll just do it without knowing they're doing it because they need to do it because they want to connect with that part of you that used to react.
Marc:And you might do it.
Marc:You might react.
Marc:By the end of it, usually I do at least once.
Marc:Yeah, hold off for a couple of days and then just boom.
Marc:I turn into the fucking horrible child or whatever I was, the angry child.
Marc:It'll happen sometimes just for 30 seconds and I'll grab it.
Marc:I'll fucking pull back, but it'll happen.
Marc:But it might not happen.
Marc:It doesn't have to happen.
Marc:Because here's what I'm starting to realize, and I'll share this with you.
Marc:Maybe it'll make sense.
Marc:Maybe it won't.
Marc:It's temporary.
Marc:Whatever's going to happen down there is temporary.
Marc:And you just have to sort of fortify.
Marc:Just know what's going to happen.
Marc:Know you're going to get down there.
Marc:All your buttons are going to be pushed.
Marc:That one dish they make that you don't like, they're going to make it again.
Marc:That one person, that cousin, that brother, that aunt, that uncle, that mother, that father, they're going to be there.
Marc:They're going to trigger you, man.
Marc:And here's what I'm going to try to do.
Marc:Maybe you can do it, too.
Marc:Now, look, I get along with my mom and we're doing all right.
Marc:But here's what I'm going to try to do.
Marc:I'm going to try to find the good side.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Because we're fucking older.
Marc:And the bottom line is they can't hurt us like they used to because they're older.
Marc:So maybe it might be time to start appreciating that that they won't be around forever.
Marc:I mean, we might not.
Marc:Who the hell knows who's going to go first?
Marc:Some of you have already lost parents and that absence is powerful and horrible and sad.
Marc:But the bottom line is there's usually some good points to these people because we have those too.
Marc:I mean, we got the good stuff too.
Marc:So why don't we focus on that?
Marc:Can we do that together?
Marc:Let's try to focus on the good sides.
Marc:of ourselves and maybe, you know, uh, to pay a little homage to our folks for, for giving us those good ones.
Marc:Maybe it's just a sliver, but, but still let's try to focus on that.
Marc:Let's try to find that love that was once pure that we had for our parents and for our family and maybe tap, tap into that a little bit if it's not too scary and it won't leave us too vulnerable.
Marc:And here's the bottom line for your own and everyone else's benefit.
Marc:have a fucking sense of humor about it all, all right?
Marc:They can't hurt us anymore.
Marc:It's just gonna be annoying.
Marc:And we're gonna maybe see part of us that we don't like, but let's try to laugh at it, right?
Marc:They can't hurt us anymore, right?
Marc:Right?
Marc:They can't, right?
Marc:I mean, seriously, they can't, right?
Marc:Right?
Marc:It's gonna be okay.
Marc:And I think above all else, what we have to remember is that we are all fragile, right?
Marc:And as we get older, we're even more fragile in many ways.
Marc:And I think that if you can't respect them as people, let's try to respect the fragility of the physical and emotional situation we're about to enter and eat some good food or complain about food that you're tired of.
Marc:Whatever you're going to do, let's just try to do it, okay?
Marc:We can do it, okay?
Marc:We can do it, all right?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right, so now this was fun because, you know, Bob and David reached out to me.
Marc:They had the thing, and they wanted me to maybe hang out and talk a little bit about the thing.
Marc:But it's always good to see them because we all started out together, and I was happy.
Marc:Bob makes me nervous.
Marc:David was on the phone.
Marc:Bob was sitting right in front of me making me nervous.
Marc:So, again, The Sketch Show with Bob and David is streaming on Netflix.
Marc:And you can watch all the episodes.
Marc:There's an hour-long making-of special directed by the one and only Lance Bangs.
Marc:But like right now, let's hang out with me and Bob Odenkirk and David Cross on the phone.
Marc:Can you hear me, Dave?
Guest:Hey, man.
Guest:It's really faint.
Guest:I can barely hear you guys.
Guest:How about now?
Guest:Can you hear us now?
Guest:Yes, that's great.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:It was one button.
Guest:There's Dolby.
Guest:He needed to press the Dolby button.
Guest:Can you hear Bob?
Guest:I can.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Do you have any kind of button there that'll improve his jokes?
Guest:Oh, this is already starting.
Marc:Well, that would be the David Cross, but that is exactly the kind of excitement and energy I wanted from you two.
Marc:Let me try to set it up.
Marc:Bob Odenkirk is here and David Cross is on the phone and I'm here to mediate some sort of friendship problem.
Guest:Mark, do not drag us into your fucking nightmare of a world.
Guest:Come on now.
Guest:That's the whole point of this podcast.
Guest:It's for Mark to drag people into his nightmare world.
Guest:Mark, I've got to talk to you.
Guest:I've recently read that you interviewed Lorne.
Marc:I interviewed Lorne.
Marc:Did he come to your garage?
Marc:No, I had to go to him.
Marc:I went to the SNL, but he did want to sit with me twice.
Marc:I did two hours.
Marc:All my questions were answered.
Guest:He wanted to sit with you twice.
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:He had to do it?
Marc:He didn't have to do it.
Marc:I went over there, and it was a Monday night, and we talked for an hour, and then he had to go to dinner.
Marc:He said, well, I'm still in town.
Marc:If you want to come back, come back tomorrow.
Marc:I went back the next night, and we sat for an hour, and then 15 minutes after we turned off the recorders, we talked about things.
Marc:I could probably call him right now.
Marc:You want to hang up on Dave and get Lauren on?
Guest:What were you expecting, Bob?
Guest:Did you seriously ask him if he remembered meeting you?
Marc:We went beat for beat through the entire story as I remembered it.
Guest:Did he say, remind me again?
Guest:No.
Marc:I walked in.
Marc:He said, you've been here before.
Marc:It's the scene of the crime.
Guest:What?
Guest:What's the crime?
Guest:I have to listen.
Marc:Where'd you just come from?
Marc:What are you cranky about?
Marc:What are you turning it on me for?
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:It's just hilarious to read that you asked him about meeting you.
Marc:For half an hour.
Marc:And he remembered.
Marc:He remembered and he addressed every one of my issues and we left friends.
Guest:That's virtually impossible.
Guest:You can't in a lifetime address every one of your issues, Mark.
Marc:the specific ones with lauren he did all right with i by the time i got there i wasn't as angry as i used to be you know but i did tell him at the end that i was available to audition again uh if if need be but what did you guys do you made more things yeah we made more uh four more half hours uh for netflix we did make them for netflix yeah because i saw a billboard on sunset yeah right near where my billboard is for my upcoming special on epics isn't there a special club we're all in now
Marc:Yes, we're in the Sunset Billboard Club.
Marc:Oh, you know who I had in here yesterday?
Marc:Dave Todd Haynes, who spoke highly of your Allen Ginsberg for him.
Guest:Oh, God, that guy was awesome.
Guest:I knew very little about him except for his work, and he could not have been a cooler, more down-to-earth
Guest:unpretentious, awesome guy.
Guest:He was fantastic.
Marc:I think he's a genius.
Guest:Has he got a new movie coming out?
Marc:Yeah, Carol.
Marc:It's called Carol.
Marc:It was stunning, that movie.
Marc:It made me cry.
Marc:It's a love story.
Marc:It was deep.
Marc:Do you cry, Bob?
Guest:Yeah, you know, you've got to die for me to cry.
Guest:I don't cry a lot, but sure.
Guest:I do, man.
Marc:I do more than I used to.
Marc:Me too, dude.
Marc:Is it our age?
Marc:What the fuck is happening?
Guest:Yes, you're getting old and the pipes are cracking.
Guest:And this is a real thing.
Guest:It sounds like a joke, but I'm an airplane crier as well.
Guest:If I have a few drinks,
Guest:And I noticed this start about 15 years ago when I was cheering up at a trailer for...
Guest:Angels in the outfield, too.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah, you got it bad.
Marc:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where were you?
Marc:I'm not joking.
Marc:No, I believe you.
Marc:Yeah, if a commercial is solid, you know, and has a good punch at the end where, you know, the guy gets the medicine or whatever, the house gets built, I'm very sad.
Marc:Moved.
Marc:But I don't think it's a bad thing.
Guest:Well, that's a real thing.
Guest:Airplane, you know, when you're up at a certain altitude, it's a real thing.
Guest:I will tear up listening to a...
Guest:you know, a cat power song or something.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:It's ridiculous.
Marc:Bob, when was the last time?
Guest:And I'm embarrassed.
Marc:No, there's nothing to be embarrassed about.
Marc:I guess I'm always in airplane mode.
Guest:Last time I cried, I was trying to fix the oven.
Guest:I couldn't get the goddamn knob to go on there.
Guest:And it was just like, just end it now.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:End this fucking world.
Guest:The whole world.
Guest:You were trying to kill yourself, though.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:I just wanted the fucking oven to go on.
Marc:Now, whose idea was it to do more Mr. Shows?
Guest:They're not called Mr. Show.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Anyway, the idea was both of ours to do something to celebrate the 20th anniversary.
Marc:Of what?
Guest:The first Mr. Show.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And we were going to do a live tour.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then we realized how fucking hard that is.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of work.
Guest:Yeah, it's a lot of work.
Guest:And why not just make four new half hours with new comedy and then more people get to see it?
Marc:And call it what?
Guest:Because you go on tour, right?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And then people call you and go, Mark, when are you coming to my town?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you go- I can't.
Marc:A week ago.
Marc:I was just there.
Marc:A week ago.
Marc:Yeah, I was there last night.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And they go, I never saw anything.
Marc:You didn't see the 90 tweets in the Facebook post?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And me putting a flyer under your door.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we decided just let's try to do some shows.
Guest:And we didn't know what it would be.
Guest:We knew it would be sketch comedy or at least something very silly.
Guest:And we were surprised that all the actors from Mr. Show wanted to do it and could do it.
Guest:And we were surprised that all the writers wanted to do it and could do it.
Guest:So that was a shock and we didn't expect it.
Marc:Well, I think you underestimate the fact that that might have been the best times of their lives.
Guest:I definitely underestimate that.
Guest:Well, but it's also a lot of these guys are extremely busy, you know, and they had to kind of clear...
Guest:their calendars, and also, you know, double up on their work in order to participate, but people were still very enthusiastic, and it was great.
Marc:And did everyone get along?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was really fun.
Guest:People had so, their egos were so either built up or completely destroyed, decimated by the last 16 years, that there was none of that, like...
Guest:me i didn't get to do that my idea you changed my idea you know people were really cool people like scott arkerman and paul tompkins have produced and made their own stuff and had they're just they're done they did it and they're not all wrapped up in anything except making something fun and brian was there possein was yeah great he's got a kid so you know that he's got a little stuffing out of him and uh
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So everyone was happy and cooler and happy to be there.
Guest:And I mean, people like Tom Kenny and Jill Talley, who are very busy people with jobs.
Guest:It turned into more of a reunion than we ever intended it to be.
Guest:But we're really happy with it.
Guest:And for us, it's new comedy.
Guest:And if we do more and we'd like to do more.
Guest:we just keep going down this road of whatever we want to do.
Guest:It wouldn't necessarily be even like what we just did.
Marc:Let me ask Dave, though.
Marc:Dave, Bob seems to be speaking for everybody.
Marc:Did you actually want to be there?
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:There being L.A.
Guest:We're at the point where we can speak for each other because we've listened to each other answer the same questions over and over again.
Guest:So even if, you know, Bob's doing an interview, he can say, you know, I mean, David felt this way and I felt this way.
Guest:But yeah, he absolutely speaks.
Marc:Okay, but I mean, I know you're on the phone here.
Marc:I didn't want you to just sit there nodding quietly.
Marc:I speak truth.
Marc:Wait, wait, are you, can you not see me?
Marc:No, it's not working.
Marc:Did you, what, do you have a camera set up?
Guest:Yeah, I have an old Hasselblad camera and I've been taking photos and
Guest:And then running down to have them developed.
Guest:And I'm on my fifth one already.
Guest:And so it's not working.
Guest:You're not seeing the photo.
Marc:No, and I'd like to see a Hasselblad photo.
Marc:That's like the two and a half by two and a half format, the square pictures.
Guest:Yeah, it takes a while.
Marc:Oh, wait, here they come.
Marc:Here they come.
Marc:This looks like you trying to work the camera.
Marc:That's a good picture.
Guest:Yeah, okay, so you can see I'm nodding.
Marc:Well, I appreciate it.
Marc:I appreciate you putting out the effort.
Marc:It takes a lot of work to do that.
Marc:But what's the format?
Marc:Is it the same format, same style?
Guest:You know, it looks a little like Mr. Show, but if you watch it closely and you don't need to, please just enjoy it.
Guest:It just doesn't have the same structure as Mr. Show, but the sensibilities are there, and that's
Guest:99% of what's going to carry on.
Guest:It's a lot like it, Mark, because we're the same people.
Marc:No, I understand that.
Guest:Do you think that your comedy has changed over 16 years?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Thank God it has.
Marc:Do you remember ever seeing me 16 years ago on purpose?
Marc:I feel like you're better.
Marc:I'm better, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, people enjoy me now.
Marc:Back then, it was hard for everybody.
Guest:Well, it's not as easy for me to change because I was good back then.
Guest:Okay, that's true.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:You could actually go the other way.
Guest:It could get worse for you.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I was just going to say that you...
Guest:You know, because Mark and I go back a long, long way, and for so long... Like what, like 30 years?
Guest:Guys, seriously?
Guest:You come on stage, and you were just a force of, like, angry negativity.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And, you know, we were all, like, at catch or something, and you'd go...
Guest:You'd be talking, you're like, oh, wow, all of a sudden I have a stomachache.
Guest:What?
Guest:Oh, here's, oh, Maren's here.
Guest:You know, and you have that ability.
Guest:You had, H-A-D, past.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm glad that I've refocused those powers because obviously I was powerful.
Marc:Without talking, I caused illness.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, you can cause a stomachache.
Marc:and be like, what?
Marc:I'm in perfect health.
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Yep, it's me.
Marc:30 years, Bob.
Marc:Is that what you're asking?
Marc:30 years, me and David?
Guest:Have you and David known each other for 30 years?
Marc:I probably met him over 30 years ago, which is even more crazy.
Guest:That's weird.
Guest:Yeah, it was a long, long time ago.
Marc:He was in college, so that must have been, holy shit, it's over 30 years.
Guest:Yeah, I was only in college for really one year.
Guest:That's a year older than me.
Marc:Are we?
Marc:Yeah, you've surpassed me.
Marc:And Dave got married.
Marc:Did you know that, Bob?
Guest:What are you talking about?
Guest:Bob was the fourth best man.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:I had 19 best men.
Marc:What an honor.
Guest:And Bob was number four.
Marc:Okay, so there are four episodes.
Marc:There's four?
Marc:All the people that everyone loves are there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The surprise of it all is Dave is not wearing cargo shorts, correct?
Guest:That's the only difference.
Guest:I lost the endorsement deal a couple years ago, so yeah, I'm not wearing them.
Guest:I'm back to what I normally wear, what I like to wear.
Guest:I was forced into a stupid, dumb, naive, young decision to sign that contract.
Marc:It is an interesting question, though.
Guest:You were making a point, David, years ago by wearing the shorts, which is I'm not going to dress up to be on TV.
Guest:I live in L.A.
Guest:It's hot most of the day.
Guest:But, Bob, you've known me for a long time now.
Guest:That's how I still dress.
Guest:I dress for comfort.
Guest:I don't dress for style.
Guest:I know, but you're doing a TV show.
Guest:And if I live in a place that nine months of the year is 90-plus degrees, I don't want a long pants.
Guest:Do a reality show, then, and wear the clothes you wear.
Guest:Listen, Grandpa, you know.
Guest:I'm still trying to go back.
Guest:I'm still fighting that argument.
Guest:That's like the first thing we talked about.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Really?
Guest:You're going to wear shorts?
Guest:Yeah, but I know.
Guest:My argument was always, and this is kind of a purposeful argument.
Guest:When people do this, David, pretend you can't hear us, or you can't talk, but can hear us.
Guest:When people do such things as wear shorts on national TV for their show that they've been waiting their whole life to get, they are making a choice as strong as dressing sort of nice, you would say.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's not like they're not trying and therefore being authentic.
Right.
Guest:they are being they're kind of going out of their way uh-huh and it's in that way it's sort of i'm almost going to say as inauthentic as putting on a tuxedo yeah i i understand that logic you know what i'm saying right sure sure that there was a an aggressive resistance to doing what is so aggressive that it takes more effort it's are you still with us dave
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I'm readying my report.
Guest:I'm kicking in, I've made my point.
Marc:I think Bob's done with his point.
Guest:Well, let's all understand that anything you choose from your wardrobe is a choice.
Guest:You've made a choice.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:whether to not be colorful or to not bare skin or to dress with a certain style from a certain decade.
Guest:Everything's a choice.
Guest:The only time it becomes an issue is when you're up against the kind of
Guest:reasoning that says, hey, you shouldn't wear that.
Guest:You should wear things that I don't notice.
Guest:And how benign is it to wear short?
Guest:I mean, of all the choices you can make, that's really not that... I'm glad you are.
Guest:I'll be honest.
Guest:I think it's wonderful and hilarious.
Guest:It makes a great stage picture.
Guest:And basically, you're looking at two guys, and you're saying to yourself, oh, one of them cares.
Guest:One of them cares.
Guest:And that's a wonderful thing.
Guest:It's a hell of a comedy duo.
Guest:Cares and not cares.
Guest:And...
Guest:We should go at tour elementary schools with our message.
Guest:It's like Goofus and Gallant.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, and you're going to go on tour comedy.
Marc:I talked to my, I think we have the same booking guy.
Marc:You're going to go out and do some dates, right?
Guest:Yes, I'm working stuff out now.
Guest:I have been for a little while.
Guest:I got this shoulder surgery a couple weeks ago.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Guest:It is funny, and it's called My Shoulder Surgery.
Guest:It's a one-man show.
Guest:That sounds great.
Guest:Yeah, and it's about shoulder surgery throughout the ages, and it ties in with the suffragette movement.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:So there's a feminist message.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I approach it from the other way.
Guest:I'm totally against it.
Guest:And the whole gist of the show is women shouldn't be allowed to drive.
Guest:I'm fine with all the other stuff.
Guest:They just shouldn't be allowed to drive.
Marc:Were you in a car accident where a woman was at fault and you hurt your shoulder?
Guest:No, it's just something I've seen in movies, television shows, commercials, vines.
Guest:Well, it'll be a great stand-up hour.
Guest:I can't wait to hear it.
Marc:And you, did you, and Bob Odenkirk, whose performance in Better Call Saul I thought was wonderful.
Marc:You, Dave, did you like it?
Guest:Oh, I loved it.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:And we, it's the last show that I really kind of religiously watched, and I can't wait for the
Guest:the second series but i would um me too and i never dbr them and then i'd come in and i go don't fucking say anything because brian would watch it that night on and y'all would start talking about it but i would tape it so i can plow through those uh commercials i can't stand watching that stuff and having to stop every 12 minutes and you were proud of your friend were you proud of your friend
Guest:Very, very much so.
Guest:I was proud of him from Breaking Bad.
Guest:I remember I was a bit late to that show, and...
Marc:uh man just uh yeah i think he's done a tremendous job and and and the show itself is amazing yeah so well written yeah i love it suddenly i've gotten very quiet yeah well i'll be honest when i watch it at first because i i don't like really liking bob and uh so i go in with a certain amount of resistance like bob's really a clown i don't think he can handle a role like this yeah and then uh and then that's what i thought right i still think yeah no but you were great and i was like god damn it
Marc:It's so good, and he's so good.
Marc:They're writing it for me.
Guest:Actually, you are taken out of it, and it's amazing that... I'm going to act like he's not here.
Guest:It's amazing that he has the ability to make you not...
Marc:watch your friend yeah you're watching this guy you're watching this character and it's uh that is a a remarkable feat i think and you know what else is remarkable about it is you you know and you know bob and i know him not as well as you but my relationship with him is different is that i felt bad for the character a little bit and i don't feel bad for bob at all
Guest:Can I admit something?
Guest:Can I admit something?
Guest:It's not me.
Guest:It's my stand-in.
Guest:It's the guy who stands in for me, and then right when it's time to go, I always whisper in his ear, you say the words.
Guest:Just you do it.
Guest:Just this one time.
Guest:Did you finish shooting a new one?
Guest:I did.
Guest:We finished about a week ago.
Guest:Thank you for the compliments, both of you gentlemen.
Guest:I know, first of all, let me just say, I think you're both capable of the same exact kind of work.
Guest:And it is all up to somebody to write it and let you do it.
Guest:I mean, we're, as comics, as comic actors, we're all about commitment, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We commit to all kinds of crazy, crazy shit, and we hang in there with it and make it real.
Guest:And the difference here is just that these guys write, you know, really sensitive, complex characters.
Guest:And so that's the only difference.
Guest:I mean, look at Michael McKeon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's doing amazing work.
Guest:I mean, and he's-
Guest:You know, I think a lot of comedy people, it's easier to go to drama than for drama people to go to comedy.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I find it infuriating and, I mean, really upsetting.
Guest:And I've had to answer this question a hundred times, especially in this last go-round of press for this show, of this just general kind of unspoken understanding that comics...
Guest:It's a surprise when comics can act normally and inhabit a real character with grounded humanity and pathos.
Guest:And that's a surprise for people.
Guest:In relation to Better Call Saul, they're like, oh, are you surprised by that?
Guest:I'm like, no, not at all.
Guest:I'm not surprised by any comic.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Look how great Keegan-Michael Key is with Bob and David.
Guest:And I'm pointing to him because you're hilarious in that know-your-rights thing, David.
Guest:But he's playing an incredibly grounded, really quiet character.
Guest:He's so good.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:People that aren't surprised are our wives and girlfriends, because they are dealing with the pathos and grounded complexity every day.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They're the only ones going, yeah, now I know.
Guest:Yeah, I've seen that.
Guest:I've seen that shit.
Marc:But everyone's doing good work, and I'm happy we're all alive and healthy.
Guest:And David just did a third season of Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret.
Guest:For the network I'm on, IFC.
Guest:How did that go, David?
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was a really interesting.
Guest:It's going to be quite different.
Guest:And it's kind of a mind blowing thing what he did, because each season and as he was describing, this third season is kind of makes you reconsider everything else you've seen.
Marc:So so so you just you fuck with people's heads.
Guest:Yeah, it's more – there's a – I hope very much that people aren't ahead of it.
Guest:And I don't think they will be, but there's – I don't think they'll figure out what's really going on.
Guest:There will probably be –
Guest:uh two or three times throughout the you're like oh i know what it is and you'll be wrong i know what's happening and you'll be wrong by what point do you think people figure it out what's the point of view of it uh it won't be until the last 10 seconds are you serious yes does that make it does that make it fun or like oh i know what it is it's like it's like it's like twin peaks is it yeah is it a dream with a little person
Guest:I mean, I'm 5'9".
Guest:I don't think that's average.
Marc:Are you going to be working on anything funny in the future?
Guest:Yes, I'm making a movie starting in two weeks that I co-wrote.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It's called Girlfriend's Day.
Guest:Have you been working on this for years?
Guest:I have.
Guest:I've been writing it on and off for years.
Marc:I feel like we talked about it years ago.
Guest:Well, we're making it.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Starting in two weeks.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Thank you, buddy.
Marc:Oh, so much shit is going on.
Guest:It's a fun little thing.
Guest:It'll come out on Netflix.
Guest:And so that's really great because people will actually see it.
Guest:As I understand it, Bob, didn't you snap some really talented female characters?
Guest:actresses for that yes amber tamblin is my love interest no yeah oh i see watch it david i just wrote in me i'm me kissing her is she really your love interest yes she is why the now that seems she's great she's gonna be amazing in this role so great how do you feel about this dave i think it's great are you kidding i mean and it comes full circle because
Guest:she lost her virginity to Bob.
Guest:Or no, Bob lost his virginity to her.
Guest:Is that true, right?
Guest:A year ago.
Guest:I can't remember which one.
Guest:A year ago.
Guest:So it's really come full circle.
Marc:My God, you guys, it's, you know, I feel a complex situation on the horizon.
Marc:Could be.
Marc:Could be unpleasant.
Guest:No, I'm a, you know, a modern, socially stable, advanced,
Guest:human being, and I accepted the offer to go away for a couple months, and they're putting me up on this nice island in the West Indies, and I've got like a running tab, and I just go there for three months, and I don't check in, and I promise that I won't
Guest:It won't bother me, and I promise I won't get on the Internet, and I won't.
Guest:I signed the papers, and I think it's a really good idea, and I'm looking forward to it.
Guest:Because I'll grow.
Guest:I'll grow as a person, too.
Marc:It's going to be all right, Dave.
Marc:It sounds like you're going to have a good time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's going to be good.
Marc:We've kissed each other on the screen, haven't we, David?
Guest:I think so, yeah.
Guest:In spite marriage, right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Well, again, I just want to say again that I'm happy for all of us, and I'm glad I could be available for this.
Marc:Thanks, buddy.
Marc:Thank you, guys.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Talk to you later, Dave.
Guest:Always good to talk to you, Mark.
Guest:Hopefully I'll see you sooner rather than later.
Marc:Are you going to be out here?
Guest:I will.
Guest:I'll come visit Amber when she's shooting the movie with Bob.
Guest:I'll probably get out there for like four days.
Marc:Call me.
Marc:Will you call me?
Marc:Come on, just call me.
Guest:I will.
Marc:Okay, buddy.
Guest:I will.
Marc:Talk to you later.
Guest:All right, guys.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:Thank you, guys.
Marc:That was fun, right?
Marc:They were so Bob and David-y.
Marc:Weren't they Bob and David-y?
Marc:They were, right?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:You guys okay?
Marc:You ready for Thanksgiving?
Marc:Are you ready?
Marc:Yola Tango, man.
Marc:Some deep fucking music.
Marc:It pushes right into your heart and into your mind.
Marc:You can just lay back and lay into it.
Marc:Great music.
Marc:It's my pleasure right now to talk to Ira Kaplan from Yola Tango.
Marc:It's my pleasure right now to mention that their latest album, Stuff Like That, is available now, and they'll be back on tour in the U.S.
Marc:starting next month.
Marc:You can go to yolatango.com for dates and venues.
Marc:But right now, let's talk to Ira Kaplan.
Marc:Too much?
Marc:Too much?
Marc:You better now?
Marc:I would think that.
Marc:But I don't know if I believe that.
Marc:That would be the assumption I would make.
Marc:But you've been in rock and roll too long to be that fucking delicate, Ira.
Guest:Is that true?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:You've seen it all.
Guest:You know, I've not seen it all.
Guest:You haven't?
Guest:No, I'm very naive.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Do you know how many records you put out?
Guest:I can name them.
Guest:I can't count them.
Guest:I mean, I'd have to keep track.
Marc:All the way through?
Marc:You think you could name all of them?
Marc:I probably could.
Guest:I'm good at lists.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:I think I could.
Marc:The weird thing is, though, to me, I've known you on and off for a long time.
Marc:I've listened to many of the records.
Marc:There's a lot of records.
Guest:No one's heard them all.
Marc:is that true don't you have a few fans that are like yes we definitely do and you hear from them yeah i i always feel kind of sometimes when i like sometimes i'll talk to musicians and uh i usually do okay with them but for a real fan of like somebody who's listened to everything you do and is like you know listen to bootlegs and stuff i don't know that i'm ever going to make an interview as you know that's going to satisfy those people
Marc:like you because you know this like i've had people in here where you like oh yeah i like those records those two records and then you look them up and they're like they've not they've done 90. yeah well that you know that i i don't a good conversation has nothing to do yes i think that's true well yeah you can't go album to album like what was going on with the guitar in that one yeah 1984 buddy take i won't know
Guest:But where'd you start?
Guest:Even that, I don't know.
Guest:Where were you born?
Guest:I was born in Queens, and my family moved to Westchester immediately, so I have no memory of Queens.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you grew up in Westchester County?
Marc:What town?
Guest:Croton-on-Hudson.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And what, like, how many... Yeah, you can go online and see the Battle of the Bands.
Guest:There was a guy from the Huntley Brinkley Report who lived in our town.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We had a Battle of the Bands at the middle school, and they did a big report on it for some kind of local color thing, and somebody has posted the footage online, and me and my friend Eric are in the front row just, like, gazing, like... Yeah.
Guest:in awe do you remember it oh yeah who were the bands the hairy things they were very good they did blues project covers and then a friend of mine who who had an older brother and whose dad was a jazz trombone player and a writer he so he was kind of a prodigy yeah he uh he was in the bad habit i think they were called the bad habit yeah
Marc:And this was like what year, 1975?
Marc:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Guest:67, 68 or something.
Marc:So what were you, like 10?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you were down at the park or wherever?
Guest:It was in the middle school, the middle school gym slash auditorium.
Marc:But you were aware and conscious of rock and roll at 10?
Marc:Yes, yeah.
Marc:What kind of, like, what was your, the childhood, like, what was your dad's business?
Marc:He was, I worked for a developer at,
Marc:uh oh real estate yeah so just like middle class jewish family thing you got brothers and sisters i have three brothers i mean we it was jewish like you know culturally not religiously at all like zero like most of us yes yeah oh really no bar mitzvah nothing oh you didn't have none of the only time the only time i ever went to the temple was for anti-war demonstrations
Guest:Really?
Marc:But you must add relatives.
Guest:No, not in that sense.
Guest:I went to friends bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs.
Marc:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And they were probably like, you're not going to do it?
Guest:Yeah, the rabbi was, no, the rabbi was very upset.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:He's like, when is your father, when are you going to come around?
Guest:He'd give my parents a hard time, not us.
Marc:You know, you're depriving those kids of a lot of guilt and shame later.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So you weren't brought up with any of that stuff.
Marc:No.
Marc:But music, I guess.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you had older brothers?
Marc:No.
Marc:You were the oldest.
Marc:It was on you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You had to be the informer.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You had to turn them on.
Marc:Were you a good older brother?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:But did you have all the cool music?
Marc:Do any of your siblings hold you responsible for changing their lives?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was, I cast a long shadow.
Marc:But at age 10, you're already going to battle the bands.
Marc:What were you listening to?
Marc:And those sound like pretty abstract bands.
Marc:I mean, you're saying they did blues project covers and you were 10.
Marc:Did you know going in when you were 10?
Guest:No, but I did remember, I mean, it was so meaningful to me that when I heard projections by the blues project, I was like,
Guest:I know.
Guest:They're doing a Harry Things cover.
Guest:I know that song.
Marc:Yeah, it turned around.
Marc:So when you were in high school, what was the plan?
Marc:When did you start playing in a band?
Guest:I was in a band in high school.
Guest:My friends and I would play together, but we would just kind of...
Guest:tease each other yeah it was not I don't it was fun yeah but but we finally had to get two women who we didn't know and were in awe of to sing right because we wouldn't make fun of them right we would be just brutal to each other so it was years before again I was comfortable singing but even in high school I was mostly playing piano I was barely playing guitar
Marc:Because Yola Tango is a very influential and important band in, I guess you would call it indie rock.
Marc:You're a mainstay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're a point of reference.
Marc:We won't go away.
Marc:Well, that's for sure.
Marc:What else?
Guest:Have there been discussions?
Guest:I'm sure many people have discussed it, not the three of us.
Yeah.
Marc:You just keep going.
Marc:But when you were in high school, though, what year?
Marc:You graduated in what?
Marc:74.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So you're older than me.
Marc:Like a few years.
Marc:I graduated in 81.
Marc:So you actually got to see all that shit.
Marc:I mean, in the sense that...
Marc:Where were you musically in the early 70s around what was going on in New York?
Marc:I mean, you were right there.
Marc:That I did see, yeah.
Marc:When did you start taking the train in, man?
Guest:At an early age.
Guest:I was very... I mean, I remember literally trying to talk my parents into taking me to Woodstock.
Guest:I mean, it was that kind of... At 10?
Guest:12 at that point, but yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was just up the street, right?
Marc:That was my argument.
Marc:Where were you learning about music?
Marc:Where were you getting turned on to that stuff?
Marc:Because hippies were everywhere, so you couldn't avoid it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, my town was a really big hippie town, so the Grateful Dead loomed really large in my town.
Marc:Early on, like in the 70s, early 70s.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I think there was music in my household, but my parents loved folk music.
Guest:They loved show tunes.
Marc:They had, like, the Pete Seeger record?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Theodore Backell, maybe?
Marc:Definitely.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But they didn't like rock and roll at all, so it was kind of, you know, it was music, but it was still mine.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Odetta, was there an Odetta record?
Marc:I'm sure there was, yes.
Marc:Yeah, oh, so, okay.
Marc:So you were, that's pretty Jewish, folk music and show tunes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, also, we lived right on the Hudson, so Pete Seeger was, you know, was literally cleaning up the river in town.
Guest:And Lee Hayes from the Weavers lived in Croton, and he was diabetic and
Guest:I think he had already, I don't know at what point, he lost one or both of his legs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he wasn't going anywhere.
Guest:So people would come to visit him.
Guest:And I remember literally being picked up by Arlo Guthrie one day, like hitchhiking.
Guest:I was hitchhiking.
Marc:How old were you then?
Marc:Nine?
Marc:When were your parents waiting?
Marc:You hitchhiked at that time?
Guest:Well, it was a different time.
Guest:It was a safe people.
Guest:There was a hill, a steep hill, and kids would just wait at the bottom of the hill and people would stop.
Guest:So Arlo picked you up?
Guest:It was great to be picked up by him, but the problem was that Lee Hayes wasn't that far into the trip to my house.
Guest:So Arlo didn't take me that far.
Guest:It wasn't that long a ride.
Marc:So you didn't have a big conversation?
Marc:But it so isn't weird, though, because I remember this when I was younger.
Marc:like images of people having really not knowing anything about their music like i could hold in my head like especially the 60s like there were definitely you know iconic people that i i could look at you know and see a picture of and identify but i wouldn't really know what they what they do like like at that time you knew it was arlo guthrie but did you know alice's restaurant or did you yeah oh you definitely know that oh because your parents had it
Guest:That would be the gray area because there used to be a show on WQXR, which was the classical music station owned at the time by the New York Times.
Guest:But they had a weekly folk show called Woody's Children.
Guest:And so I guess occasionally they literally played Woody's Children.
Guest:But that was definitely something the whole family could agree on that hour of radio a week.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So you kind of grew up with that folk?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're like a legit boomer.
Marc:I'm like a tail end dude.
Marc:You were there for that.
Marc:You were cognizant for the 60s and early 70s music stuff in your teens.
Guest:I mean, you asked before about New York in the 70s, and
Guest:I do remember vividly seeing Patti Smith for the first time.
Guest:It was almost one eye-opening moment after another, but for her encore, she played Time is on My Side and dedicated it to the father of rock and roll, Ed Sullivan, which...
Guest:I knew enough to know that, no, the father of rock and roll is Alan Freed.
Guest:But she was talking to me because Ed Sullivan was my father of rock and roll.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:Alan Freed was somebody I'd heard about.
Guest:But I saw the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.
Marc:You remember that?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So were you like seven?
Marc:Then I was seven, yeah.
Marc:You remember seeing The Beatles and The Stones on Sullivan?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's fascinating to me because I don't have that.
Marc:I saw it after.
Marc:So you were there as a kid when all that stuff was the first time anyone saw it.
Guest:It's vivid to me.
Guest:I mean, I remember not only watching it, but why I watched it.
Guest:My friend from up the street who had an older sister, he played Meet the Beatles for me and said, they're going to be on TV.
Guest:You got to see it.
Marc:This is this new band.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's fucking amazing.
Marc:So when you saw Patti Smith, were you in like junior high?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Then I was in college.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what were you doing for like 13 to 18?
Guest:Well, there used to be these great shows in Wollman Rink, which were a dollar or two.
Guest:And because of the neighborhood, they were really early.
Guest:So they would be over by like 8.30.
Guest:So at a very early age, I was allowed to take the train and go see them and go with my friends or frequently just go by myself.
Marc:Who were some of the people you saw?
Guest:Well, that's where I saw The Kinks for the first time, which was, that was another just...
Marc:mind-blower yeah and you were like what 15 15 because your music definitely has a place and and it seems like a natural extension of some of the stuff that happened in New York in the 70s you know with the sound with like you know Lou Reed and velvet underground and television and that kind of stuff like it but yeah do you feel that those are influences for you
Guest:You know, I usually run from the influence word, but the thing that I do, I always feel that we were more, or I was more...
Guest:I feel like the people who got it from the Velvet Underground almost more... I mean, obviously, I'm on the wrong side of this argument because people have told me I'm wrong.
Guest:We sound like the Velvet Underground.
Guest:But it's always to me... I don't think you sound like them, per se.
Guest:The feelies and the modern lovers, the more suburban takes on the cityscape of the Velvet Underground.
Guest:That always felt like...
Guest:those people were... Oh, that's nice.
Marc:A little less jaded.
Marc:So what argument do people always consider you on the wrong side?
Guest:Well, the tie to the Velvet Underground is... I mean, I think it's... I mean, look, I love them and... Right, but you refuse to... I refuse to agree with anyone.
Guest:That's probably what I'm saying to you.
Marc:I've got all the records and some that no one else has, but I couldn't cite them as an influence.
Marc:That's precisely.
Guest:I knew I could make you understand.
Marc:Some rare cassette tapes that took me a long time to find, but I can't really say that they influenced me in any way.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Marc:But you're willing to let the feelies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you're probably friends with those guys.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because they're contemporaries.
Guest:Not quite.
Guest:A little later?
Guest:I mean, they're a little, slightly older.
Guest:Oh, they are?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, they were a band that I got to know.
Guest:At a certain point, George and I moved to Hoboken.
Guest:We both started working at Maxwell's.
Guest:Wait, so where'd you meet Georgia?
Guest:I met her at a Feely show.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where?
Guest:At this after-hours rock dance disco, Danceteria.
Marc:I remember Danceteria.
Guest:Now, I don't know if you remember the original one.
Guest:There were two.
Guest:There was the original one, which until it was closed in a raid, there would be three sets a night.
Guest:The headlining band would play the first and third set, and the three sets were at midnight, two, and four.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So the Feelys were there.
Guest:Now, who was like- Well, the Feelys played CBGBs and Max's.
Guest:I mean, they go right- I didn't realize they were that far back.
Marc:Did you ever go to Max's?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, did you see the Velvet Underground?
Guest:No.
Guest:I was too young for that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And probably too stupid.
Guest:I think by the time I heard them, they didn't exist anymore.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you ever see Lou?
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you become friends with him?
Marc:No.
Marc:You didn't?
Marc:Come on, why is that a funny question?
Guest:I'm not that outgoing.
Marc:You are with comedians.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Kind of?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:So you meet her at a Feely show in New York City.
Marc:And you guys hit it off around the Feelys.
Guest:Well, we had mutual friends and mutual interest in bands that didn't have particularly large followings.
Guest:So it was kind of inevitable that we would meet at some point.
Marc:It was sort of a smaller circle, wasn't it?
Marc:Like who were like, did you see...
Marc:Like the New York Dolls or Verlaine or any of those people when television was around?
Guest:Oh, television for sure.
Guest:But to me, those are like sea change differences between the New York Dolls and television.
Guest:I mean, as I said, being from like this hippie town, liking the kinks was already an issue with some of my friends.
Guest:Because they were deadheads or whatever?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, as was I. I mean, I loved that too.
Marc:They were great, weren't they?
Marc:They did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you ever see them?
Guest:I did see him.
Guest:I actually just saw them.
Guest:I went to Chicago.
Guest:How was it?
Guest:I had a fantastic time.
Marc:It was great, I bet.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Post-Jerry.
Guest:I had never listened.
Guest:I still have not listened to a note of Fish, but I thought Trey Anastasia was great.
Guest:I had a great time.
Marc:When did you see the dead?
Guest:Like Wake of the Flood.
Guest:I think they were around then and a few times.
Guest:Terrapin?
Guest:I may have stopped by then.
Guest:I only saw them a few times.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was it pretty fun?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Were you doing acid?
Guest:Nope.
Guest:I told you I'm naive.
Guest:No drugs?
Guest:No.
Guest:Never?
Guest:Well, I mean, a little bit, but not acid, no.
Guest:You're a nervous guy.
Yeah.
Marc:It's like, I don't know, my parents wouldn't.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But you saw television?
Marc:Yeah, a lot.
Marc:When they were at the top of their game?
Guest:They were amazing.
Marc:Well, he's a pretty good guitar player, that guy, huh?
Guest:They both are.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that was just amazing.
Guest:I would go all the time.
Marc:To Seavey's?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Ramones?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Dead boys?
Marc:I think the answer will be yes.
Marc:To all of them?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were sucking all that up before you were 20, right?
Guest:Right, I guess so, yes.
Guest:What was the fucking East Village like, dude?
Guest:Do you miss that?
Guest:You know, I don't really get... It's funny.
Guest:I know the right answer is yes.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:And it's not like I like it now, but I don't feel... I try not to get too...
Guest:I feel a lot of the... Nostalgia?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like it is nostalgia and it's... I mean, I've got plenty of signs of age, but oh, you kids don't know how great it was is not one of them.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Did you see Johnny Thunders?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:Those were fantastic.
Guest:I mean, they would play at Max's, so I'd go to those shows.
Guest:The Heartbreakers.
Guest:Yeah, the Heartbreakers, and every show they ever did was like their farewell show, and they would eventually go on, and almost inevitably it'd be daylight when they finally finished their second set.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How about the Talking Heads?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:It shows a lot.
Marc:Well, no, I just like hearing that because even at my most youthful, I was never a guy that went out to see rock bands.
Marc:And I did it a few times, so they're very memorable to me.
Marc:But people like you who are out in it every weekend going to see others.
Guest:No, my ears are ringing to confirm that story, yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you meet Georgia, you're plinking around on the guitar and she's playing drums.
Marc:You're very humble almost to the point of negating about the beginning of this fucking band that you're in.
Guest:Well, I mean, to an extent that's a strategy, but it's not really wrong.
Guest:We were playing and the two bands that we were playing,
Guest:really big fans of and who were very supportive of us were the Feelys and the DBs.
Guest:And the DBs used to play at parties at the New York Rocker, this fanzine that we were out of our circle.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And one day, Peter Hulsapple of the DBs asked George and me if we wanted to join him, join them and play with them.
Guest:And I mean, it was, we were petrified, but we did.
Guest:And that was the first time we ever played for people in public.
Guest:With the DBs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doing like, you know, cover songs at this party.
Guest:So, it really wasn't, you know, it always, I've always noticed the difference between like, you know, the kind of English bravado, like, you know, all the music today is shite.
Guest:So, we had to form a band to show them how it's done.
Guest:That, you know, nothing could have been further from our world.
Marc:background well it doesn't seem like throughout your career and throughout all the records and I imagine through your live performing that you know it's like being a comic in the sense that you know I don't I don't attract a lot of meatheads so I think that like you know having that's always fascinated me about what I sent CBGB's was is that there was such a variety of music that I imagine that you know some bands you know got up to another band's audience and it would have just been horrible
Guest:Like, I imagine that it seems like the world that you surrounded yourself in were fairly, you know, sensitive people and not like, come on, let's fucking... Well, I don't think, especially at the beginning at CBGB's, I don't think there was that... I don't think that many people were coming there other than... I don't think... It didn't seem like a huge sea change between the Talking Heads and the Ramones.
Guest:I mean, they were both...
Guest:Oh, it's just new.
Marc:Other.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:Punk rock, in a way.
Marc:Okay, so you do this gig with the DBs, and when do you meet the bass player?
Guest:Well, you mean James?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We formed our band in 1984 and couldn't keep a group together.
Guest:And partly because of just how our terrible approach to doing it.
Guest:We just would ask our friends and inevitably our friends were in other bands.
Guest:So they were never committed to us.
Guest:They'd play for a while.
Guest:They would go do something else.
Guest:And in 1992, we were, as usual, between bass players or we had somebody filling in who we knew wasn't committed to us.
Marc:So really the core of it was just you and George.
Marc:Oh, always, yeah.
Guest:And James was playing in a band, Christmas, originally from Boston.
Guest:They were living in Providence at the time.
Guest:They actually had had a similar issue keeping a third person in the group.
Guest:And James was their bass player, and we were friends with the band.
Guest:And he said, he always says this jokingly.
Guest:It didn't seem like a joke at the time, probably because it wasn't a joking matter.
Guest:But he said, well, you know, if you ever need somebody to fill in, just call me up.
Guest:And, you know, we probably called him a week later.
Guest:Time to fill in forever.
Guest:Well, and that was the thing.
Guest:I think the fact that he joined...
Guest:as a temporary person as a member of another band allowed us to organically form a band together instead of like you're hired right it wasn't like that and it was really a year later pretty much that he really was in the group oh really so like not until like four or five albums in
Guest:The second record, the first record he's on, he's kind of there as the guy who, well, he's been touring, he knows the songs.
Marc:On Ride the Tiger?
Guest:No, no, he's not on.
Guest:The first album he's on is May I Sing With Me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you've already done a lot of recording.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With just fill in people.
Guest:I mean, yeah, essentially.
Guest:I mean, that's an overgeneralization, but yes, people who were, there was a revolving door.
Marc:Because in re-listening and listening to some of this stuff for the first time, it's interesting because like at some point,
Marc:you you evolved into a sound that is uniquely yours and and sometimes it it makes me sad but i think that's part of it you know what i mean like i like that type of feeling you know but it is it makes me a little heavy-hearted but i enjoy it yeah um but at the beginning you know it was definitely not that that's right
Marc:So and I don't talk specifically about this with a lot of musicians because it's kind of tricky to talk about is that, you know, obviously you play together a long time and, you know, bands change.
Marc:But what what makes someone shift from, I guess, what was happening more Feely style to to this sort of almost ethereal kind of like tone?
Marc:that it has a lot more atmospheric.
Marc:I mean, was there a moment where you're like, holy shit, I should do left the amp that high all the time?
Marc:Or like, you know, the sustain on that, why aren't we doing that more?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, there's a variety.
Guest:The biggest part of that answer is James.
Guest:That when he joined the band and when he really joined, not when we, you know, that sort of year later after we had made this other record, he had moved to Brooklyn and we didn't have other jobs.
Guest:So we just practiced a lot.
Guest:And we'd never done that before.
Guest:We'd be kind of like, you know, trying to get somebody to, well, we've got a show come up.
Guest:We really should practice.
Guest:Well, I think I can squeeze you in.
Guest:How's Thursday 8 to 10?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that was the kind of... Just getting ready for a gig.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then when we... The record, the first record on Matadors, the record Painful, and that record we rehearsed like crazy for, and we'd write the song, and we'd practice it, and then we'd rip it up and try it again.
Guest:It hadn't been like that, and I think we found...
Guest:lots of ways of playing and ways that we could rely something to build on where where I think what was one of the natures of having so many different people is it was almost like starting again constantly and uh in the first few records yeah so and and but you and Georgia were primarily writing all the songs
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We did a lot of covers, but yes, the songs that were being written.
Guest:Well, our first album, Dave Schramm was the lead guitarist, and we did two of his songs that he sang.
Guest:And didn't he come back around?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He played on our Fakebook record in 1990, and now this new record we have is kind of a sequel to Fakebook, and he's back playing with us.
Marc:What's that like after, what, 20 years?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:even though we're not living in Hoboken anymore there's still kind of a small town mentality I think that we have and we don't you know these people stay in our lives and even though we haven't recorded with Dave he's we've played live with him uh
Guest:From time to time, he's been part of Hanukkah shows.
Guest:There was one night, it turned out he was in Chicago with a band and the same night we were like, oh, come to a few songs.
Marc:There was no Hoboken music scene.
Guest:Maxwell's was definitely a hub.
Marc:And you lived there in Hoboken.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were a sound guy at Maxwell's.
Guest:I was standing behind the board when people were playing.
Guest:Did you listen to Matt Sweeney?
Guest:No, no, I haven't heard that one yet, no.
Guest:Did I do sound for him?
Guest:He said they went out of their way to upset you.
Marc:He said that you had a sort of, I can't, I'm just paraphrasing.
Guest:He was in Skunk, that's right, it would have been Skunk, yeah.
Marc:He said that there was something about you that had a sort of air about you that they just wanted to fuck with.
Guest:I'm sure it wasn't difficult.
Guest:And he said they would do sound checks and just play shit that would upset you on purpose.
Guest:He may be... Exaggerating?
Guest:He may be misreading.
Guest:Sure, we all suggested that.
Guest:You probably just are like, oh, here we go.
Guest:These kids, they're going to do their punk rock thing.
Guest:Were they a good band?
Guest:I don't remember them.
Guest:I remember their existence, but I don't remember.
Marc:So when you moved to Hoboken, what year was that?
Marc:I think 80 or 81.
Marc:Okay, so before you did any recording.
Marc:So you kind of built Maxwell's in a way.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Maxwell's preceded us.
Guest:oh really oh yeah and that was a it was one of the reasons we moved there I mean it was to move there was nothing happening in Brooklyn at that you know in those dark ages and to live someplace where you could walk to a club was and who was playing the Maxwell circuit
Marc:Everybody?
Guest:Quite a few people.
Guest:I mean, as I said, the DBs would play in the Feelys, and R.E.M.
Guest:played there a lot.
Marc:Husker Du were very... So that was the second wave.
Marc:So this is an interesting thing about you, is that you were a kid, and you do all the CBs business, and then all those bands came in later.
Marc:And that was the whole next wave of what was unleashed of the others, like Husker Du and the Feelys.
Marc:They were post... I mean, the Minutemen...
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:You saw them?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:A friend of mine and I booked a weekly series at Folk City in Manhattan for about a little more than a year.
Guest:And I'm almost positive we gave the Minutemen their first show off of the hardcore circuit.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And probably Husker Du as well.
Guest:They were just part of that hardcore show.
Marc:yeah and and we booked them all right so there you are you you moved to hoboken to be closer to a club in walking distance i was doing good stuff and you're working the board and what else you working all all different jobs there you're literally being paid by maxwell's too i was being paid a little i was it more of a way to get into shows
Guest:It was definitely a way to get into shows, but we lived in a house and one of our roommates had a friend staying on the couch and we felt like he was never going to leave.
Guest:And he announced one day that he was going to be the new sound man at Maxwell's.
Guest:And I went to the owner and said...
Guest:You can't hire him, hire me.
Guest:And that is how I, that's how I think I got the job.
Guest:And those were my qualifications.
Guest:Because you didn't want him in the house anyway?
Guest:Did you learn anything being a sound man?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I stunk at it.
Guest:I feel bad.
Guest:I wish I'd been more curious about learning more things about sound.
Guest:I mean, there were a couple things.
Guest:I was thinking about this recently.
Guest:There were a few things I did that were right, trying to deal with the room being little.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But in terms of...
Guest:Like equalizers?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not your thing.
Guest:Don't hurt them, they won't hurt you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you must have known that you were destined to be playing at that time.
Guest:I wouldn't say that.
Guest:So what were you thinking?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Now you sound like my mom.
Guest:That's the questions I was being asked.
Marc:But were you doing something?
Marc:Were you writing?
Marc:What were you doing?
Guest:I was writing a little.
Guest:For what?
Guest:I was putting on these shows.
Guest:Well, New York Rocker had gone out of business, so I was kind of not really writing very much.
Guest:I had written for New York Rocker.
Guest:What, rock reviews?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:And you were promoting?
Marc:I was pretty aimless.
Guest:A little.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So your parents must have been going nuts.
Guest:They probably were.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:What do you mean they probably were?
Marc:They weren't like Ira.
Guest:It would be like the occasional lunch that would come up.
Marc:With your mother?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're like, what are you doing?
Marc:I'm just making up your mother right now.
Marc:Where are you working?
Marc:Is that a good job?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah no i was i was i was proofreading lousy books i had a college friend who worked for this uh second rate uh at best paperback publisher and i was proofreading and copy editing for them did you go to college you finished college uh i went to college and i ultimately finished oh yeah but not recently
Guest:uh not recently finally got that incomplete done way way after the fact where'd you go sarah lawrence oh my god yeah well that was part of how i was able to go to all those shows it was just you know even closer than croton to new york yeah but was it right after it stopped being a girl school
Guest:Soon after.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That place has got a reputation.
Marc:Kind of a groovy place.
Marc:Nothing?
Marc:No real memories of it?
Guest:I have some memories.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I don't like looking back.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Was it a bad time for you, Ira?
Guest:You know, you ask these questions about, like,
Guest:What were you doing?
Guest:Which is such a naturally... It's a question that seems to come out of the conversation very organically.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what the answer is.
Guest:It's kind of amazing to me that we managed to get here today.
Guest:Maybe I did have a plan.
Guest:I don't think so.
Marc:Well, maybe it seems to me that...
Marc:well i mean i'm no therapist but it seems to me that um there there's this natural uh diminishing uh uh gear you have in your head that it's humble you know you're humble so yeah it seems that like in talking about it you're like well i don't i don't know it just you know just we weren't really trying to do anything but i mean
Marc:Your music is very realized and passionate and orchestrated and amazing.
Marc:So at some point, you're going to have to own your ambition as a musician.
Guest:Well, from the moment we played, we loved playing.
Guest:And I've always, but yeah, we've tried.
Guest:We've done the best we can always.
Guest:What did you study in college?
Guest:I mean, barely anything.
Guest:Sarah Lawrence was a college who could really... Drift?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were drifting.
Guest:I was drifting.
Guest:I was going to shows.
Marc:I mean, that's really what I was... But you can identify in your mind or your heart that you were maybe going to shows because of this amazing...
Guest:desire to do oh no i always knew i had the desire that for sure yeah without a doubt but but it it almost felt as i i thought i tried to express it before but that almost the more i wanted to do it yeah the harder it the more unobtainable it seemed at times i you know i just couldn't figure out how to how to make that leap even even when it seemed like
Guest:it wasn't a leap anymore, but just a step.
Marc:Now, with Painful, that was the album that really sort of got you recognized?
Guest:That was a, yeah.
Guest:I mean, we always had kind of little incremental, but Painful was a big change.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And in that, it got you some airplay, or were you getting airplay before that, or...?
Guest:probably well college radio i'm sure we were yeah yeah we definitely weren't college radio and probably and probably never got it anywhere else even with painful or anything else any other record really i mean we've never had you know some commercial radio which has like the right the one hour sort of 120 minutes equivalent you know did you want that
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, I'd be happy to have more commercial success.
Guest:I mean, that is something I am confident about, that I don't feel like... I believe in me, and I believe in us, and I think we could deal with whatever situation we were put in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you never consciously said, like, we're going to write a hit.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:Why not?
Guest:I don't think we'd be good at it.
Guest:I mean, we don't we don't we don't play well enough.
Guest:We don't sing well enough.
Guest:We're not.
Guest:That's not what our strengths are.
Guest:I think our strengths are expressing who we are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think trying to be something else.
Guest:And I think would be we would not be as good at it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And honestly, or as opposed to everything else I've said, I.
Guest:One thing that I did get a lot out of from going to see bands was seeing the bands in like television who were a strong influence in this regard in the Ramones watching these amazing bands not become successful.
Guest:the velvet underground the kinks in their own way yeah it finally got to the point where i didn't i thought that not only and and the band nrbq who are kind of not part of any of this world but still huge to me yeah um not only was being good not a guarantee of success it got to the point i thought it might be a guarantee of failure of commercial failure that if you
Guest:And so we never expected, we weren't disappointed by not being more successful.
Guest:And then we also observed people that we considered peers who we did think were kind of going for it.
Guest:And it seemed to backfire like every time.
Guest:Like a band like R.E.M.
Guest:who did get bigger and bigger.
Guest:To me, it didn't seem like that was a calculation.
Guest:It just seemed like they caught a wave.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then, so if we had tried, I think, I'm sure it wouldn't have worked.
Marc:Well, I agree with you.
Marc:I'm being a devil's advocate.
Marc:I think that there are people that...
Marc:that set out to write a certain type of song.
Marc:It's a different career ambition.
Marc:I talk to somebody like Jack Antonoff, who wants to be a pop songwriter.
Marc:I mean, that's the job he wants.
Marc:But he also wants to express himself.
Marc:But he studies pop music.
Marc:You talk to somebody like Rivers Cuomo.
Marc:I mean, that guy, he wants to make pop music.
Marc:And also honor himself in the same sort of breath.
Marc:But I gravitate more towards what you're seeing, which is that the purest expression of what you think is your creativity is what you should be doing.
Marc:And that's what you did.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And how is your audience holding up after 30 years?
Guest:Pretty good.
Guest:I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's, we're a family night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:The kids bringing their parents and vice versa.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:But we actually, we have, we have a, you know, our new record is so different from what we normally do.
Guest:There's no, I don't.
Marc:Stuff like that.
Marc:It's called stuff like that there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How is it different?
Guest:Well, as I said, it's like a sequel to this fake book record we made, which is just... I only play acoustic guitar.
Guest:Georgia doesn't... She plays a small kit, standing up, mostly with brushes.
Guest:And we did a show... We did an NPR show recently playing that way, and we got an email afterwards from somebody saying...
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:My son was a little disappointed that there were no guitar freak-outs.
Guest:So will that happen at the Philadelphia show, or is that the way you're going to play?
Guest:Because it's going to kind of influence whether he comes or not.
Guest:He wanted some noise, huh?
Guest:Actually, you know, next year.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:This year, we're just... You let the kid down.
Guest:He wanted some fucking noise, man.
Guest:He wanted some fucking guitar.
Guest:You're denying the kid guitar.
Guest:You know, you've got to listen to your heart.
Marc:Where did you figure out how to sort of do that?
Marc:Because I know people compare you to Thurston probably a little bit, but I think certainly a little more melodic.
Marc:But I mean, where did you start to open it up like that?
Guest:Well, we started when we were...
Guest:We did a lot of practicing as a trio.
Guest:We did very little playing live as a trio.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we would practice and then whoever was going to be the fourth band member at that show would kind of show up and have one rehearsal.
Guest:So a lot of it, some of it was just imitating Dave Rick, who was our first bass player, but then also, I mean, he's an astonishing guitar player, and he would play, and I'd just watch him, you know, just wailing on the tremolo arm, and I thought...
Guest:That looks like fun.
Guest:And so would just try a lot of it at practice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And got comfortable enough that we started accepting shows before we found out whether one of our rotating cast of guitar players could do it.
Marc:So it was actually a way to fill out.
Marc:Like you became more confident with the sound that you didn't have to, that it was strong enough to where it didn't matter who the next guy was going to come in.
Guest:well we we always felt that way we felt like as a quartet we could we could plug these different people in uh but then we we did the show in albany as a trio because we had accepted the date right and turned out nobody was free right so we're like gulp and and i did all the guitar solos and it was like
Guest:That was fun.
Marc:Yeah, so you could do it.
Marc:Well, it's scary.
Marc:Jump.
Marc:Like if I think about it, when I think about, like I said, I rarely play with people.
Marc:But if it's just me and a bass player and a guitar, it feels like there's a lot of responsibility there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like there's no guy just to make sure that that stays filled up over here so I can do this.
Marc:So it was almost to compensate for lack of a rhythm player in a way.
Guest:Well, it was also what I could do.
Guest:I mean, some of the more melodic and other ways of playing, some of that I think I've developed over the years.
Guest:And at the time, I probably wasn't capable of doing much more than just making a racket.
Marc:Right, so the last record, the Fade record, is a classic Yola Tango record.
Marc:But this one, which I didn't get on vinyl, so I didn't listen to yet.
Marc:I'm not being a snob, the CDs that get away from me.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:It's acoustic, and grown-ups like it, is what you're telling me.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's primarily cover songs.
Guest:There's only two new songs by us.
Guest:Who'd you cover?
Guest:I can look right now.
Guest:The Parliaments, Love and Spoonful, Hank Williams.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But also some bands that are not as well known.
Guest:Antietam, Special Pillow.
Marc:I have that Antietam album.
Marc:That's a pretty record.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:Oh, I'll show it to you.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Our first show almost 31 years ago was with them.
Guest:It was like their third show.
Guest:They've been playing.
Marc:As long as you guys.
Marc:I don't know anything about them.
Marc:See, it's so fucked up.
Marc:I don't believe that there's any late to the party, but I miss so much.
Marc:always you know like because i'm a pretty open-minded person but to keep filling in you know even when i get all these records and now because there are all these record nerds around there all these labels not labels but smaller presses are reissuing things yeah that were record nerd favorites and their bands i'm like i don't know who this is how do you know who this is yeah no you're getting those records too you probably have the originals of some of those records a lot of it but but i've i'm
Marc:You're like Sharpling.
Guest:I am happy that I have stopped caring.
Guest:I mean, there was a time in my life when it would have really disturbed me not to know something, and now it's like... I'm just mad, but there's also an excitement of discovery.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Even if something's been buried to you, and I didn't know anything about it for 30 years, 40 years, like, what was this?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How is this happening?
Yeah.
Marc:Because there's all these different types of music that are sort of surfacing in their own communities now that the media landscape is fragmented and people can sort of like find their little world in a slightly different way than like, oh, there's a rockabilly, there's a punk rockers, there's this, that.
Marc:But now like, you know, psych rock and garage rock and these records that were released in, you know, issues of a thousand records that no one can find, but now they reissue them and it blows minds.
Marc:I didn't know who the fuck Hawkwind was until like six months ago.
Marc:And there's 90 records.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's bizarre.
Marc:Or the Groundhogs.
Guest:Even to this day, I know one Hawkwind song.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know any of the songs, but I know what they sound like.
Marc:Silver Machine, great song.
Marc:What about the Groundhogs?
Marc:Groundhogs, I know a little bit.
Marc:I didn't know anything about them, but because Dan, you know Dan?
Marc:Dan Cook, down at Gimme Gimme, he used to have Gimme Gimme in New York, the record store on, I think he was on St.
Marc:Mark's.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, he's here now.
Marc:So he's my guy.
Marc:So he's like, I think you'd like this.
Marc:Malcolm is a big Groundhogs guy.
Marc:He didn't talk with Dan.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Is he?
Marc:He's a big groundhog guy?
Marc:And that guy I think is still around, that McPhee.
Marc:What's his name?
Marc:Dave McPhee, the groundhog guy?
Marc:Paul McPhee?
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And you cover a Sun Ra album.
Marc:Do you do a Sun Ra song?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a doo-wop song, a Sun Ra doo-wop number that he wrote and arranged for this vocal group, The Cosmic Rays.
Marc:So what I'm starting to realize is that maybe you went to see a lot of rock shows, but I think you were probably more influenced by your record collection.
Yeah.
Marc:In the sense that you have a very wide, expansive sense of music from having so many records.
Marc:Like you wouldn't have seen Sun Ra.
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:You did see Sun Ra.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, not only did I see Sun Ra, Sun Ra to me is one of the people that I kind of kick myself about because in the 70s, they played New York all the time in the 80s.
Guest:And I went, I saw him and them a few times, but I had a friend of mine who would go see them every week, and I was like, why wasn't I that smart?
Guest:What is it about him?
Guest:Because he's not easy.
Guest:Yeah, well, that was part of why I wasn't going every week.
Guest:I mean, not just the music, but like, you know, it'd be like, come on, guys, it's 2 a.m., what are you going on?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:There was a lot of that.
Guest:It felt like you really had to... That's my recollection of it.
Guest:Maybe I'm saying that.
Marc:Where did you get your jazz head chops?
Marc:Where did you get turned on to that?
Guest:Well, NRBQ had a lot to do with it.
Guest:Hearing Sun Ra... The first time I was aware of Sun Ra, I was hearing NRBQ do...
Guest:Rocket No.
Guest:9, and they did Thelonious Monk songs, and then I heard Thelonious Monk and was like, oh, that sounds a lot like Terry Adams.
Guest:So a lot of that stuff came through them, yeah.
Guest:And then, you know, just...
Guest:listening to Ornette Coleman, Albert Isler, John Coltrane, you know, just kind of the, you know, it was just there, like you'd read an interview with Roger McGuinn talking about Eight Miles High.
Guest:We wanted to sound like John Coltrane.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because, like, that type, the type of guitar playing that you somehow take the freedom to do is adventurous, and I imagine that listening to that stuff early on or being influenced by that stuff certainly gives you a sense of how far you can push something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or at least gives you the freedom to do it.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I mean, I'm not just being coy.
Guest:Sometimes it's not clear where these things are coming from.
Guest:But, you know, Neil Young has a... There, too, where you watch him and just feel like, well, this is not a technical master.
Guest:This is somebody who's just playing out of just sheer... Yeah.
Guest:sheerness yeah and and and feel like well what would happen if I did that what would that work would it sound and you know just trying things does it feel good when you do it it's the best yeah yeah yeah what about like when you do covers in a way it's kind of what I'm looking forward to of not playing that way yeah
Guest:it's like tantric sex.
Guest:It'll be like, I can't, it'll be so exciting to go back and doing it again.
Marc:Oh, after a year of doing acoustic?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I bet it will.
Marc:But do you find, like, because the only, the point of reference I have when I hear you talk about the new record and the type of feedback you're getting is sort of where, in a very different way, in a way that I don't quite understand because I don't know him, but the sort of like where Jonathan Richman stopped and stayed, you know, that he became almost
Marc:It's almost children's music after a certain point.
Marc:And there were those acoustic records that he made that were very fun and lighthearted.
Marc:But those are pretty old.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I don't know what he's up to now.
Marc:Do you know him?
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Guest:I mean, we know him, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Is he a good guy?
Guest:I don't know him.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I... Because I kind of like to talk to him, but I'm nervous.
Guest:He doesn't like talking, doing interviews that much.
Guest:He's done a... He did an interview for this amazing documentary about Danny Fields.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he did it while setting up for a show at the Bell House.
Guest:And then...
Guest:Now I'm trying to think who it was, but somebody else just, I know, also interviewed him.
Guest:Same scenario.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:20 minutes while he's setting up another show.
Guest:Have you seen him lately play?
Guest:Not in the last year, but I continue to see him.
Guest:Is he pretty good still?
Guest:He's great.
Guest:It's fantastic.
Guest:It's just him.
Guest:For the last bunch of years, it's just been him and a drummer.
Guest:He brings his own PA.
Guest:He plays a nylon string guitar, not plugged in.
Guest:They're really quiet.
Guest:He, like, you've got to be careful what time of year you go see him because he'll make the air conditioner be turned off.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Because you'll hear... Too noisy?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But he's playing whatever comes into his mind at the moment.
Marc:Covers or his or whatever?
Guest:Well, the thing, that's what's interesting is that his repertoire is not that vast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He doesn't really draw on that many songs, but he can do them...
Guest:Like he'll change key in the middle and he'll just put down the guitar and start dancing and give the drummer a solo.
Guest:And he sings in, I think it's six or seven different languages.
Guest:He does stuff like Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:English.
Marc:So he's really sort of gone on his own journey.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:It is so inspiring.
Guest:You just watch and he's just...
Marc:He's like a savant in a way.
Marc:Or not a savant, but somebody who sort of protected himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And insulated himself out of perseverance in a way.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:I'm curious about that.
Marc:I should listen to some of his later stuff.
Marc:Like I haven't listened to his stuff in a long time.
Marc:In terms of album sales and selling tickets on the road and stuff, I know you do soundtrack work and stuff like that.
Marc:So you sort of diversified a bit.
Marc:You do those kind of gigs.
Yeah.
Guest:We do whatever makes sense.
Guest:I mean, we do enjoy playing in all sorts of ways.
Guest:And it is part of, you know, as I said, it'll be when we come back to playing electric, it'll make it that much more exciting having played acoustically for a few months, which we're looking forward to as well.
Guest:And similarly, we were here just a couple months ago playing, oh, for one of your guests, we backed Amber Tamblyn at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery.
Guest:She was reading her poems, and we were her band.
Guest:How'd that go?
Guest:It was great.
Guest:We were trying to figure out a way to do it again, but it was... Once you make a record.
Guest:Well, it's up to her.
Marc:And what about the Todd Haynes movie?
Marc:The Dylan movie?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You did several of those, right?
Guest:We did two songs for that, yeah.
Marc:And did you meet with him?
Marc:Did he choose you?
Marc:How'd that work?
Guest:He chose us.
Guest:He wanted us to record Fourth Time.
Guest:Actually, I think there was a list of maybe four or five songs that he wanted us to choose one.
Guest:We chose Fourth Time Around.
Guest:And then...
Guest:The music people said, well, as long as you're recording, you know, is there anything else you want to do?
Guest:And I want to be your lover was one that we already knew.
Guest:But it was cool.
Guest:What was exciting about that was they encouraged us to do something.
Guest:You know, don't feel you have to record as a trio.
Guest:If you want to do something different, go ahead.
Guest:So we ended up with Terry Adams.
Guest:We kind of put together our Hawks.
Guest:And Terry Adams from NRBQ played piano.
Guest:And Stanley Durrell, who's Buckwheat of Buckwheat Zydeco, he played astonishingly great Hammond organ player.
Guest:He played organ.
Guest:And our friend Pete Phillips played lead guitar.
Guest:John Sebastian played harmonica.
Guest:It was just this crazy session we did one afternoon.
Wow.
Guest:Oh, that's amazing.
Marc:So that's fun, man.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:So you're still having fun?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Great.
Guest:Emphatically.
Marc:I think we did good.
Guest:You know, being interviewed remains kind of this weird experience.
Guest:It's kind of...
Guest:A lot of the things... I think in a lot of ways it's just better to listen to records and make up your own story.
Guest:And having sort of this authoritative figure who presumably knows the real story tell what happened, I think in some ways is...
Guest:lessening the experience of listening.
Guest:So I'm always willing to answer questions, but I'm never sorry when they're not asked.
Marc:Well, I'm not a big question guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've enjoyed myself very much.
Marc:I'm always hoping that you just start talking.
Marc:I was nervous about it, because I've met you several times, and we've been in passing, but I don't think that I ever thought, like, that guy never shuts up.
Yeah.
Marc:But I think it went well.
Marc:It was nice to talk to you.
Guest:Had a nice time.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's the show.
Marc:That was Ira.
Marc:I think we did all right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Thanksgiving.
Marc:Enter with an open heart, but not too open.
Marc:It's going to cause you trouble.
Marc:And again, remember that we're all fragile and that some people are not going to be around forever.
Marc:Let's try to look at the good, eat some good food.
Marc:And if we're going to lose our shit, let's try to make it as brief as possible.
Marc:All right.
Marc:We can only do what we can do.
Marc:But if you feel it happening, maybe get out, take a walk, take a breather.
Marc:If you don't catch it in time, be quick to the apology.
Marc:It's not your fault.
Marc:Just carry it with you for a year and deal with it next year.
Marc:All right.
Marc:What else have I got to tell you?
Marc:OK, yeah.
Marc:WTF pod dot com is the site.
Marc:You can go there, get on the mailing list, leave a comment, see what's up.
Marc:You know, check the episode guide, get Howl, the new app with our archive.
Marc:The remixes that we used on today's show were by DJ Copley.
Marc:You can find him on Twitter at WebPuppy45.
Marc:Our theme music is by John Montagna.
Marc:And, you know, take it easy, all right?
Marc:Happy holidays.
Marc:Do the thing.
Marc:Should we play some guitar?
Marc:I can play.
Guest:guitar solo
Marc:Boomer Lives!