Episode 656 - Robert Trujillo & Flea / Aziz Ansari
Marc:Lock the gates!
Music Music Music
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what-the-fuckers?
Marc:What-the-fuck buddies?
Marc:What-the-fuck sticks?
Marc:What-the-fuckineers?
Marc:What-the-fuckingistas?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:This is WTF, my podcast.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:All of those of you who are insulated, perhaps working in the Arctic.
Marc:Welcome.
Marc:Welcome those of you in labs.
Marc:Welcome all people who repair shoes.
Marc:Welcome.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:It's an interesting show today.
Marc:Going to to talk to Aziz Ansari.
Marc:As you know, sometimes on this show, when fellow comedians have things to plug and I have a relationship with that fellow comedian and we want to talk about, you know, that project, have mom for a shorty.
Marc:That's what we call them.
Marc:Behind your back, we call them shorties.
Marc:So this would be theoretically an Aziz shorty, but it's not because Aziz and I got to talking about his new show, Master of None, and the nature of it, the reality of it.
Marc:We sort of got into a nuts and bolts conversation a little bit about making television.
Marc:What sort of became a theme of our conversation is the idea that he is actually doing something that hasn't been done before.
Marc:And in that the the diversity of his show, there just became a conversation about the opportunities and the possibilities of working around the major networks to do things that haven't been done before.
Marc:But Aziza and I have a nice chat.
Marc:And then sort of an interesting thing happened.
Marc:Robert Trujillo, the bass player of Metallica, is involved with a movie that I saw a screening of early on.
Marc:This movie...
Marc:is about Jocko Pastorius.
Marc:There's a big event for the premiere of the film.
Marc:It's a concert and the film.
Marc:That's going to be this Sunday, November 22nd, at the Ace in Los Angeles.
Marc:You can get tickets for that and get info on the screeners or pre-order the Blu-ray and DVD at jocko, J-A-C-O, thefilm.com.
Marc:Now, this is not any sort of paid plug.
Marc:It's like, maybe I should talk about this before I bring them on, but this guy...
Marc:I'd always heard about Jaco Pastorius, and I'd always heard that he was this brilliant, genius, savant-like bass player that changed the entire game of bass playing.
Marc:I think he played with, what was it, Weather Report and Joni Mitchell, did a couple solo records, but that's not necessarily my kind of music, right?
Marc:Fusion, Joni Mitchell, not necessarily the first things I listened to or would necessarily even appreciate the bass so much in terms of focusing on it.
Marc:And I'd always heard about him and the horrible, sad, sort of tragic end that he met.
Marc:But it's just this tragic tale of a tortured genius, a pure artist that I was asked to come see a rough cut of it.
Marc:And I was thrilled about it and that it was happening.
Marc:But these two guys are the best fucking rock bass players in the business.
Marc:And they both came to talk about bass and talk about Jocko and to talk about the film a bit because I think it's an important film.
Marc:And, you know, I'm a music guy.
Marc:So that's exciting.
Marc:And that's going to happen.
Marc:You're going to witness that.
Marc:It's going to happen.
Marc:It's going to happen right here on this show that you're listening to after Aziz Ansari.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So Aziz, me and Aziz, he's been on the show before, but like I said, we were going to just kind of talk about his new show.
Marc:We ended up talking about a lot of things and we ended up sort of coming around on some stuff, you know, talking about, you know, the nature of television in a lot of ways.
Marc:And it turned out to be a much more engaging conversation than even I expected because I thought it was just going to be a little one and it turned out to be kind of a medium sized one.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So this is me and Aziz.
Marc:As I said, the show is master of none.
Marc:It's streaming now on Netflix.
Marc:Aziz, it's been a while since we were in here.
Marc:When was it?
Marc:I don't fucking know.
Marc:You don't know.
Marc:Don't you keep track?
Marc:You're a very meticulous guy.
Marc:Aren't you on top of this stuff?
Marc:I thought you had some sort of large graph and table of your entire career that you just did like mathematics and everything was coming out fucking roses.
Guest:Is that some sort of strange Indian joke?
No.
Marc:I hadn't thought about it, but you're doing great.
Marc:I think the last time I saw you, it was coincidence.
Marc:We were out of town.
Marc:How come we were at that hotel?
Marc:We were both in Boston.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:I can't remember why I was there.
Guest:I think I was there for something for my book.
Marc:You were too.
Guest:We were both doing something.
Marc:I was doing some weird conference thing.
Guest:We were both doing this weird thing in Boston.
Marc:I was like, yo, and then Paul Feig was there because he was shooting Ghostbusters.
Guest:Yeah, it was one of those things where you're by yourself in Boston.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Ah, comedians.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Somebody, please, let's hang out in the lobby.
Guest:Let's eat dinner.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then we talked for a while, and you told me about the new show, and I knew nothing about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I enjoy talking to you, so it's all good.
Marc:Well, what do you do?
Marc:Do you have a place here now in LA?
Guest:I have a place here, yeah, that I got when I was doing Parks and Rec, but I mainly live in New York now.
Marc:So what do you do?
Marc:You're just going to keep this place to hang out at occasionally?
Guest:Yeah, I still come back.
Guest:And I don't know if we do a second season, if we'll end up writing in L.A.
Guest:So you never really know.
Marc:Because the guys are here, some of them?
Guest:Alan lives here, who I created the show with, and the writers we worked with last time.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:I thought I prepared.
Marc:I did a little bit.
Marc:Alan Yang.
Marc:Alan Yang.
Marc:Yeah, I got it.
Marc:Alan, you must be referring to Alan Yang.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So when you guys created this, wasn't the late Harris Whittles involved as well?
Guest:He was.
Guest:He wrote with us until he passed, and when me and Alan weren't in the room, he was in charge of the writer's room, and he was a big part of it.
Guest:Yeah, that was an awful experience.
Marc:And you guys had known each other for a while, Harris and Alan, right?
Marc:Are you all from Parks and Rec?
Marc:Is that where?
Guest:Yeah, I'd known Harris from stand-up before he rode on Parks and Rec, and he opened up for me on the road a few times.
Guest:He opened up for me when I did a show in Houston, and I met some of his family years ago.
Guest:So whenever I went back to Houston, I would see some of his friends and stuff, so I had a little connection to him from Houston as well.
Guest:And I worked with him on a couple of scripts and movie scripts.
Guest:And then when Alan and I decided to do this show, he was the first person we wanted to get to write with us.
Marc:And that's how it started?
Marc:And then how many was he involved with in terms of actually writing?
Marc:The first few?
Marc:It's hard.
Guest:It's so crazy because I remember exactly the moment of getting that phone call and everything.
Guest:So I know exactly how long it was and everything.
Guest:He was there up until about episode eight or something.
Marc:So most of them.
Guest:For most of them.
Guest:I remember me and Alan were trying to figure out this one episode, and we were walking by ourselves.
Guest:Like, we stepped away from the writer's room, and we were kind of walking by ourselves, and we were trying to figure out this episode.
Guest:And I got that call, and it was insane, and we just kind of... We couldn't even process it, and we just walked around for a while, and it was...
Marc:So, but in, you know, in light of that horrible thing and just, you know, the legacy of working with him, I don't know that a lot of people know how a writing room works or how that creative process in television works, because I'm in the middle of it now.
Marc:And, you know, when you were creating Master of None, how many people, like, who were the writers?
Marc:Because, like, you know a lot of the same guys I do, and a lot of people who listen to this show know it, because I know
Marc:Well, I don't know Alan Yang, but I knew Harris.
Marc:I know that Werheim, Eric Werheim's involved, right?
Guest:Yeah, he acted in the show and he directed four episodes.
Guest:No writing?
Guest:He didn't write on the show, no.
Marc:So who was in the room?
Marc:Like, how many people?
Guest:Myself, Alan, my brother, Anise.
Guest:Is he in show business?
Guest:He is now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:He'd done kind of other jobs in- Older, younger?
Guest:He's younger brother.
Guest:He's 25.
Guest:And I was trying to think of people to hire.
Guest:I wanted to get someone a little bit younger.
Guest:And I just thought he would be great because I just know how funny he is in real life.
Guest:And just-
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:I remember reading this thing with Greg Daniels once.
Marc:Who created The Office.
Guest:The Office in the U.S.
Guest:And he would use writing samples that were non-traditional.
Guest:It wasn't always just like a spec script.
Guest:It could just be an article someone wrote that was funny.
Guest:Just different kinds of things that just showed that someone had an interesting sense of humor.
Marc:Right, because in the room, that's sort of all that counts.
Marc:I mean, ultimately, whoever's going to write the script is going to write the script.
Guest:Yeah, the other stuff, the nuts and bolts stuff can easily be taught.
Guest:What can be taught is having that unique comedic perspective.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And he was always so funny.
Guest:He would be on email chains with me and other comedy guys.
Guest:I have this long bit email chain with him, my brother, and the Lonely Island guys.
Guest:And he would just write these emails that made us laugh so hard.
Guest:And I was like, Anis is really funny.
Guest:He's a really good writer.
Guest:And Alan knows him personally, too.
Guest:And it was a no-brainer.
Guest:We were like, let's get Anis.
Guest:That'll be a great idea to have a young writer like him on boards.
Marc:And what's your dynamic with him, though?
Marc:Was there brotherly shit going on?
Guest:No, I think he was very excited to be here and was a little bit shy at first, but he grew as a writer in the room, and he got a lot of stuff on it, a lot of great jokes in the show that people quote or lines that he pitched.
Guest:So there was him, there was this writing duo, these women, Sarah Peters and Zoe Jarman, Joe Mandy, who wrote on Parks.
Marc:I just saw him.
Marc:I love Joe.
Marc:Yeah, I did stand up with him the other night.
Marc:Very funny.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he came on as soon as Parks was done.
Guest:He came on board and helped us out.
Guest:And Harris was riding with us.
Guest:And who else?
Guest:A couple of people popped in when they could.
Guest:Andrew Weinberg, he wrote with us a little bit.
Guest:Jason Wollner wrote a little bit.
Guest:And Andy Blitz.
Guest:If I left anyone out, please know in my heart I really appreciated the work you did on the show.
Guest:And it was a mistake because I'm very nervous talking to Mark.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm just kidding.
Marc:Okay, so the hardest part about doing this stuff is for me and maybe for you is breaking stories.
Marc:It's tedious, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of tough if you have an idea.
Guest:For example, one of the episodes that was really hard was this episode called Indians on TV that we wrote.
Guest:And we had so many ideas and the script went through so many drafts.
Guest:And it took a while to land on the story that we did and the plot mechanics that we landed on.
Guest:And it just takes a while.
Guest:And a lot of writing on that show was...
Guest:Just us just discussing things in the room.
Guest:And a lot of times we could be arguing about something.
Guest:And then Alan and I would be like, this is good.
Guest:We should just put this argument in the episode.
Guest:This is very real and interesting.
Marc:Well, you know, that episode in particular is sort of provocative to me because...
Marc:I think a lot of people who watch this, but not necessarily myself.
Marc:I mean, that story that I have I've heard from a black perspective, you know, on some level, that story of like, you know, why do we have to play slaves?
Marc:Why do we just got to play criminals?
Marc:Why was like but that there's been some progress.
Marc:Along those lines in racial casting, but still not a lot.
Marc:But then to hear from an Indian perspective, because I've heard Maz Jobrani do bits about it.
Marc:And maybe I don't know if you do actual comedy bits about it.
Marc:But that story was really interesting to me because you would never see someone do blackface.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To do a black part, you know, certainly not in the modern world, if ever, but that actually happens.
Marc:That we're actually finding one real source.
Marc:Was that a real, that was a real thing, right?
Marc:The Fisher Stevens thing.
Marc:The Fisher Stevens thing.
Guest:Well, what was interesting is after we did that episode, I talked to more and more people about this, and everyone has their version of it to an extent.
Guest:We did an episode called Old People, and this actress, Lynn Cohen, played my girlfriend's grandma.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She talked to me after she read the script and she was like, this is great.
Guest:I never get anything like this where it's a fully rounded character.
Guest:I usually get these old people roles where I'm getting hurt and hurting my hip or I'm a rapping granny.
Guest:And I was like, oh, that's her version of convenience store guy or whatever or taxi cab driver.
Guest:I think part of it is...
Guest:All the people that do this stuff are younger people, so they don't have those stories in their head necessarily to tell.
Guest:And when they think of old people, they just think of them as props for whatever goofy gag or whatever.
Guest:And they don't always consider their lives as having some sort of compelling story they need to put into their things.
Guest:Full life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And but you did that, too, also with I think that another thing that most of like my generation has gotten away from and my generation not being that much older than you.
Marc:But like our grandparents or maybe great grandparents, you know, especially if you're like a Jew like myself, that was the first generation immigrant story was the you know, the Ellis Island.
Marc:You know, it was all European.
Marc:Most of it, you know, that first generation in the 1900s.
Marc:But that's sort of like our connection to that experience.
Marc:And yours is like your parents.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that that the the story of a first generation immigrant who's not European and it's within the last 30 years is you don't see a lot of that.
Marc:And it was interesting to me in watching that episode about you and.
Marc:what's the other actor's name, the Asian kid?
Marc:Calvin, Calvin Yu.
Marc:Yeah, Calvin Yu.
Marc:It's a very specific story that you may see in some independent films about that specifically, but not in a mainstream comedy.
Marc:But it also seems that the two of you, whether how true it is to the characters or not, are insanely detached from the first generation immigrant story of the people that you grew up with.
Guest:Yeah, I think part of it is the kids just not thinking about it.
Guest:Taking it for granted.
Guest:Taking it for granted and just be like, yeah, I guess it was hard.
Guest:And then also I think a big part of it is the parents are very closed off emotionally and don't share those kind of stories with the kids.
Guest:I really learned a lot about those stories because I did that episode and asked my parents so many questions.
Guest:Same with Alan.
Guest:I think Alan knew a little bit about his dad's story.
Guest:The story of the Brian character's dad in the show is pretty close to what happened to Alan's father, the story about the chicken and all those things.
Guest:And with my dad, the stuff is pretty close to what happened to him as well.
Marc:Your Indian heritage, is it important to you?
Guest:I think it's obviously it's something that defines who you are, where you're from.
Guest:I mean, do you think about it?
Guest:I think you can't help but have it be a part of who you are in your life and how you interact with people.
Guest:I don't think it's like every single moment I'm like, I'm Indian, I'm Indian, I'm Indian.
Guest:It's not that kind of thing, but I don't think anyone has that.
Marc:Well, I don't know.
Marc:I just read Ta-Nehisi Coates' book about the black experience, and it seems to be pretty fun.
Marc:That's a crazy book, right?
Marc:But clearly half of it, most of it is about that consciousness that is unavoidable.
Marc:That, you know, at all times, in all situations.
Marc:No, that's true.
Marc:And there's a self-consciousness and a censorship that goes around with that.
Guest:But it's almost like, you know, when he tells that story of being in the movie theater with his kid and that woman kind of pushes his kid, I feel like he's kind of, he kind of forgot for a second and then that happens and he's like, oh shit.
Marc:I could get in real trouble just because.
Guest:That story is an insane story.
Guest:It's a great book.
Guest:Yeah, and I think it's like that.
Guest:For me, it's like, oh, it will be out of my head, and then I'll get some script where it's like, oh, do an accent.
Guest:It's like, oh, I forgot.
Guest:That's what people think of Indian people and Indian actors.
Marc:It was interesting to me in seeing the character, which I imagine is pretty close to you, have a certain amount of surprise and distance from your own sort of heritage because you were so identified in the show as well with the generation, the generational problems of where you're at just as a guy.
Marc:It all seems pretty well integrated that most of the show, you cover the bases around what people's assumptions are you...
Guest:ethnically and then the thing about with your parents but but a lot of it is really just navigating uh culture as you know dude who's in his 30s trying to date and trying to exactly just being a dude but i think by virtue of just being an indian guy and that being my life these things do come up organically for me and for the character and and i think that's why it works in the show
Marc:Well, how did you figure out, like, I want to know what the meeting was where you're sitting in the writer's room.
Marc:Because, like, the sort of recurring crew, you know, the friend's coffee shop idea of who you're hanging out with.
Marc:You know, you've got the Asian friend.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you've got an African-American lesbian friend.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And then you've got, you know, a big white doofus.
Guest:The token white friend.
Guest:But so classically, like, kind of like... Well...
Guest:There was no discussion of, oh, let's, it's interesting seeing this big reaction to the diversity in the show, because it wasn't, I didn't expect it to be such a thing, but I think what happened was this.
Marc:What is the reaction?
Marc:I'm not keeping, I'm sorry, I'm not checking every day.
Marc:Oh, I check everything, Googling all the time.
Guest:The reaction is, wow, I've never seen a show where an Indian guy's having sex with someone.
Guest:I haven't seen an Asian guy who's not this super nerd.
Guest:There's articles about Kelvin being this heartthrob in the show, and you never see that.
Guest:There's no Asian heartthrobs.
Guest:There's no...
Guest:Usually Asian men are desexualized.
Guest:And then they're like, oh, and then the other friend is an African-American lesbian, and this is a good reputation of that character.
Guest:And then there's one white guy, and it's usually the reverse.
Guest:It's usually three white people and one minority or someone different.
Guest:But the way it happened on the show was, so Kelvin's character is based on Alan.
Guest:So we were always going to have an Asian guy.
Guest:And it was going to be a proxy for Alan.
Guest:And then we wanted a female friend and we worked with Allison Jones who's casting.
Marc:Yeah, she's great.
Guest:Legend, just incredible.
Guest:And she just started introducing us to all these people.
Guest:And I did chemistry reads with everyone that wanted to read for this part.
Marc:Chemistry read mean just how do you vibe?
Guest:It's like an audition where I'm there and we're really improvising a lot and just kind of really trying to see if there's a chemistry there.
Guest:And our favorite was Lena.
Guest:uh lena waith who who plays denise and we were like this person's incredible never seen this person on tv this this kind of energy and who she is and we just changed the whole character uh to be her and so that's how that character came about it wasn't like alan and i sat down like what do
Guest:have we got an African-American lesbian woman to be my friend?
Guest:There was never that conversation.
Guest:And then Eric is a friend of mine in real life.
Guest:And all these characters, and then Noelle, who's my girlfriend at the show, was another person.
Guest:We auditioned so many women.
Guest:I did so many auditions with people and improvised with all these women.
Guest:And she was the person I had the best chemistry with and seemed like the funniest and most natural performer.
Guest:And so we cast them all based on their talent.
Guest:And I think it reflects Alan and I's reality.
Guest:When we hang out, I mean, there is an Indian guy and an Asian guy there.
Guest:And we do have black friends.
Guest:And Eric is a friend.
Guest:So all these characters are kind of based on the performers.
Guest:And I think the reason it feels different is because it's authentic to me and my social circles.
Guest:It's not like...
Guest:If they made Seinfeld now, I don't think they should cast Seinfeld any different than they did.
Guest:Like, that reflects a reality that's there, right?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I don't think it's about, oh, we'll make one of Jerry's friends Asian now or something.
Guest:Like, no, I don't think that's the answer.
Guest:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:I think what we did works because it's very authentic.
Guest:I think the answer would be if you're doing a show like Seinfeld now, if you do cast an Asian guy, maybe don't cast him only when you need a guy that's, like, working, you know, the long amount or whatever.
Marc:Right, you don't want to do quota casting.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I think that feels fake and funny.
Guest:We've all seen those shows where you're like, I don't think that black guy would hang out with these people.
Guest:I really think he's being forced into this friend group.
Guest:In real life, this guy would not hang out with these three other people.
Guest:And those shows are on.
Guest:You know the shows.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So it's kind of tough to find that middle ground where it feels authentic and doesn't feel like quota casting.
Guest:And for us, it was very authentic because me and Alan are friends, and those are those two guys.
Guest:And then Lena was just our favorite person that auditioned, and we made that character her.
Guest:And I really am friends with her now.
Guest:And it all feels real, and Eric is Eric.
Marc:Well, I guess a lot of people are going to sort of project whatever they think is like, well, this is intentional.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I really didn't expect it to be this thing, but it's cool.
Guest:And I'm glad that people are seeing it and being like, wow, this is a cool depiction of Asian Americans.
Guest:Because, you know, we were aware of the Asian American stuff a little bit.
Guest:Like Alan had asked me when we were shooting, he said something to me once.
Guest:He was like, how many times have you seen an Asian guy kiss someone?
Guest:And I was like, I mean, not in real life.
Guest:He meant like on TV and film.
Guest:Because in real life, you see it all the time.
Guest:In real life, you can't avoid it.
Guest:And I was like, wow, you really don't see it.
Guest:There really is this whole thing of desexualizing Asian men and Indian men on television and film.
Guest:And so to see them portrayed the way Kelvin portrays a character of Brian, where he's sexually capable, confident, good-looking guy, it is, sadly, an anomaly.
Marc:And also, like, it's...
Marc:There's an element to it that it is a uniquely American experience that you're sort of capturing.
Marc:And I think that some people keep, they'd rather generalize that ethnically than just see everybody as like, well, they're just people, American people who are living their lives.
Guest:Someone wrote me on Twitter.
Guest:They were like, it's cool to see a group of friends on TV that look like my group of friends.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I do think you see sometimes on like network shows, you see these four people.
Guest:You're like, all right.
Guest:I mean, these are really attractive white people that are hanging out together.
Marc:I guess that's the thing.
Guest:It's homogenized.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think what's strange is I think so much of TV and film is the kind of proxy for the everyman is a super good looking white guy.
Guest:And the truth is not many people relate to that guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Not anymore.
Guest:He's not everybody.
Marc:Yeah, I guess probably ever.
Marc:I mean, it was always a fantasy in the first place.
Marc:You know, the whole idea of movies and movie stars.
Guest:Yeah, I guess it kind of started out with this thing of, oh, like, let's live vicariously through.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The myth.
Guest:This whoever this guy is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then now it's kind of like people are like, all right.
Guest:What's interesting to me, what I've learned doing from the show is there's so many stories to tell that we haven't told at all.
Guest:Ever.
Guest:Just amazing stories about people that have just been so, just never been in the forefront of the stories we tell.
Guest:And we're just slowly scratching the surface as more and more creators are coming from different backgrounds and ethnicities.
Guest:And to me, that's very exciting.
Guest:Just the idea of just like more.
Marc:more interesting stories because the cultural landscape is dramatically changing and that you know to even get a sense of of what you know the the the population looks like becomes tricky in terms of like what what you know how many people really relate to this but but the weird thing is is that there's no denying that it's changing and it's and it's more inclusive and it's for the better but still it seems that some t like some mediums are just slow to get to it
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you seem to be sort of on the forefront of some of that.
Guest:It takes time to be able to do this stuff well, too.
Guest:I think Alan and I, you know, we had a lot of experience through Parks and Rec and other things we've done.
Guest:So we were able to do this in a good way and make it feel right.
Guest:And I think if we'd done this show when we were younger, it wouldn't have been any.
Guest:I think it would have probably been a fine show, but it wouldn't have been what it is now.
Guest:And I think.
Guest:Over time, as more and more people like me and Alan go through our careers and gain experience to make shows like Master of None or whatever, hopefully we'll get more and more of these kind of shows and stories and films and whatever.
Marc:I just think it's impressive that you have friends.
Marc:You know, like I'm not...
Marc:I'm not a guy like I have friends, but I don't spend time with a lot of people.
Marc:So like somehow or another, I guess there are some people that, you know, go out in the world and they hang out with friends.
Marc:I guess I never really led a normal life like that because I was a comic and I spent most of my life in fucking comedy clubs.
Marc:And I didn't, you know, I was not, you know, working with other people or writing with other people.
Marc:I had, you know, a few guys that I'd see and be like, hey, hey, you know, we're friends because we're comics.
Marc:But I don't I don't generally spend time with a lot of people.
Marc:So maybe that's my that's why I feel excluded from everything.
Marc:Like when I'm watching anything and I'm like, people don't hang out and talk.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:But that's my own problem.
Guest:But that was a thing in the show where we made it so every episode it's not the same four people show up all the time.
Guest:We made it so, oh, whatever the story is, whatever that episode's about, let's bring in the other people as we need them.
Guest:Because we were writing and we're like, that character wouldn't be here right now.
Marc:But also it seems like, you know, as a person,
Marc:In terms of being able to do the show and having the experience that you seem to be consciously and with effort evolving as a human being around women, around relationships.
Marc:You're sort of aware.
Marc:My girlfriend was very happy about the episode that dealt with women's safety and that self-awareness of that stuff.
Marc:And that even those stories aren't really told comedically that often.
Guest:It's hard to do.
Guest:It's hard to do it and not come off preachy and to make it feel real.
Guest:And you don't want it to seem like you're trying to pat yourself on the back or anything like that.
Guest:But as far as evolving as a performer, the analogy I always use is I've always liked bands that put out albums that...
Guest:Show a growth and change, but kind of maintain an essence, be it something like the Beastie Boys or Radiohead or whatever.
Guest:And I think that's the goal is to keep evolving as an artist and getting better and doing different things.
Marc:But it's interesting.
Marc:It was it was it seems to me like I don't know how aware of it you are or what your consciousness is around it.
Marc:But like I think early on in your career, you're a sort of observational comedian, you know, who did, you know, sort of skewed stuff with a certain rhythm.
Marc:And, you know, a lot of it was focused on, you know, having a kind of point of view around reality that was new.
Marc:And then like as you became more a person with success and I guess some some money and some, you know,
Marc:awareness of yourself out in the world and with women and stuff that you really started to sort of delve into relationship material, which is hard to do in a new way.
Guest:Yeah, I think an advantage I had was I'm a little bit
Guest:I'm younger than people realize sometimes, I think.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:I'm 32 now, but when I was doing that stuff, I was in my late 20s, and there were things that people weren't talking about because a lot of the comedians that were at the level I was doing theaters and things like that were older, so they were either married or divorced or whatever.
Guest:Already jaded.
Guest:They were already past that stage where they were young and kind of out.
Guest:No hope.
Guest:Dealing with that stuff.
Guest:So it gave me an interesting opportunity to kind of talk about this stuff in a new way as a comedian that was at that level.
Marc:But there was never a point in time where you were talking about your own experience through jokes about relationships where you were sort of like, I wonder if this has been covered before.
Guest:Well, I think with anything, it's really about your take on it and whatever you're talking about.
Guest:You can kind of go out to the clubs and hear what people are doing and hear kind of the common takes.
Guest:And you know if yours is different enough to where it's worth doing.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:That's how I felt.
Guest:With all the stuff I did, I felt like I did it in a way where it differentiated itself from the more obvious stuff.
Marc:Right, because generationally, primarily because of technology and a strange lack of real engagement with people, that the obstacles are different.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:There was no texting when I was dating.
Marc:I've dealt with that in my adult life, but I'm still an old man going like, this is exciting.
Marc:You just...
Marc:But but for your generation, which is, you know, you're 20 years younger than me.
Marc:You know, it's it's it's just normal.
Marc:It's just how you engage.
Marc:You almost hardly like there's a chance that you will never have seen or even talk to the person before in real life before you meet them.
Guest:It's crazy how these very once universal human experiences kind of die away.
Guest:For example, just the idea of a guy nervously calling a woman on the phone.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's gone.
Guest:I mean, there's a certain generation that has no idea.
Marc:Or leaving a message even.
Guest:Yeah, now the version is like, what do I send in this first text?
Guest:It's like, that's not that scary.
Guest:That's much less scary than like...
Marc:hearing that ring and hearing someone go hello yeah you missed out i mean that's a crazy moment i mean i had the tail end of that yeah you missed out of a nervous first call yeah but that used to be that's something that everyone could relate to it to a certain age and now it's gone yeah i don't know where all the time goes you know like because you never feel like you have time and all this stuff was supposed to make life more convenient for us but it actually makes it more insane
Guest:Well, there's a good and a bad, you know, for, you know, I think there's some people that like, oh, I can text and now I don't have to be as nervous.
Guest:And also I can, it doesn't feel as forward.
Guest:And now we kind of build a rapport on texts and things are better for me in that way.
Marc:Is that, is that thing in that one episode where, you know, the woman just goes on dates to get free food?
Marc:Is that a real thing?
Guest:That's the real thing.
Guest:Someone told us, one of the writers mentioned that there was some girl that worked in their office that would just go on OkCupid dates.
Guest:To have good food?
Guest:Just use the guys for free food.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's a thing some people do in cities like New York.
Guest:They'll just go on these OkCupid dates and just use people for food.
Marc:And so what happens now?
Marc:You got the book out and the show's going.
Marc:Do you know if you're going to do more?
Marc:Are you going to do more?
No.
Guest:They haven't officially said, but I... Why not, right?
Guest:I think they'd probably want to do more.
Guest:If we did do more, if we did a season two, I would just want to take some time to have some stuff happen to me and make sure that what we did was as good as what we did.
Marc:Is there anything I can do to help you?
Marc:Want me to lock you in the garage for two days?
Guest:Hey, that'd be an episode.
Guest:That'd be a strange one, but sure.
Marc:And what about stand-up?
Marc:Are you in it?
Marc:Are you taking a break?
Marc:Are you writing new shit?
Marc:What are you doing?
Guest:Stand-up, I wrote about, I had like about 40 minutes that I did for the Oddball Tour over the summer.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And I might go back into the clubs and try to just finish an hour and do a tour, but I kind of want to write some more scripts and stuff before I do a tour, because sometimes I feel like I just go to stand-up and I let...
Marc:It's easy.
Marc:It's what we do.
Guest:Writing, go down.
Guest:Like write what though?
Guest:Script writing.
Guest:Like a movie?
Guest:Like a movie or more episodes of the show or whatever.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But is that sort of where the momentum in your mind, is that sort of the next plateau is to sort of follow the, you know, to break the mold of sort of what you talked about in that episode and actually have a nice big movie that stars Indian leading men and, you know,
Guest:Well, I think I did that with Master of None, even though it's not a movie.
Guest:I was thinking about that, whether I'd want to do a movie, and I realized, well, Master of None, I get to do whatever I want.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Guest:Very open to every idea we want to do.
Guest:Me and Alan have so much control on the show.
Marc:Creative freedom.
Guest:Yeah, and I don't know what I would get out of doing a movie.
Guest:And so many people watch the show.
Guest:I mean, so many people got to see the show.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:Movies are a chore, man.
Guest:Movies are tough.
Guest:You got to get out there and then you see the weekend box office numbers.
Guest:It's a different thing.
Guest:Just to get it made.
Marc:It's like, you know, you think like, oh, well, anyone can make one and we got the technology, but it's not easy, man.
Guest:It seems like a struggle.
Guest:And I feel like I have such a great situation with Netflix and the show.
Guest:I...
Guest:Obviously, there's part of me that wants to do that, and there are limited... I can't tell every story I want to tell through the show.
Guest:Like, if I wanted to do something where I played a totally different character, that might be weird to do in the show.
Guest:I mean, granted, we play around with a lot of stuff, but I think it might be hard to do certain things.
Marc:You could do, like, if you wanted to, though, if you really wanted to play with length and stretching out a narrative, you know, in the next season you could do an hour first episode.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think Netflix is very creatively supportive of anything we want to do, but...
Guest:Yeah, there is something cool about movies and just doing a cool movie.
Guest:If I made like one really good movie, I'd be so thrilled.
Guest:If I had like one really good one that I directed and wrote and acted in, I'd be thrilled.
Marc:That would be awesome.
Marc:How many did you direct the Masters of None?
Guest:Masters of None, I did two of them.
Guest:I did the parents episode and the Nashville episode.
Marc:And those were your real parents?
Guest:Those were my real parents, yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you had your brother and your parents.
Yes.
Guest:Very crazy.
Marc:Is that your only brother?
Guest:It's my only sibling, my little brother.
Guest:Yeah, it's very surreal.
Guest:I was thinking about it when we had a premiere for the show in New York and my whole family was there.
Guest:I was like, wow, this is probably the biggest thing I've done in my career, probably the most well-received thing I've done in my career.
Guest:And my parents are in it and my brother helped me write it.
Guest:Pretty, pretty cool to have my whole immediate family be such a big part of it.
Guest:Not even a little part, a big part.
Guest:It wasn't like my parents are like a little cameo.
Guest:They're, they're in a few episodes.
Guest:My brother helped write on every episode.
Guest:You know, even though all the episodes, most of them say written by Aziz and Alan, you know, they were written in a room and everyone pitched ideas and jokes.
Guest:That's the way it works.
Guest:That's how those writers rooms work.
Guest:Um, and, and,
Guest:To have my whole family be a part of something that ended up being such a big thing in my career, it's really special.
Marc:Are they excited?
Guest:Yeah, I think they're thrilled.
Guest:I think my dad's getting all these emails from people that have seen the show, like distant relatives, random Indian people that just live in North Carolina.
Guest:They got new friends now.
Marc:You're close by.
Marc:Where do you guys go to eat?
Yeah.
Marc:Well, thanks, Aziz.
Marc:Where are you headed now?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think I'm just running around.
Guest:I might have a little bit of a breather.
Guest:I might just go home for a little bit.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Guest:Thanks for having me, Mark.
Marc:Aziz.
Marc:It is a good show.
Marc:Some good shit in it.
Marc:It is kind of... It's sort of interesting, the idea of...
Marc:You know, what makes, you know, what makes somebody an artist?
Marc:You know, what makes somebody it's like I was talking before and even talking to Aziz.
Marc:It's like the work that goes in that once you sort of refine what you are and what you do and and the craft of what you do, then, you know, the job and the work.
Marc:of bringing that to whatever you're going to bring that to is really the fucking that's that's where that's where you know the the what is it the tire meets the pavement the wood meets the saw the fist meets the face what is it that's where it happens man
Marc:And, you know, as I it's very hard to being a self-employed person to know when you're not.
Marc:When does work stop?
Marc:Never stops.
Marc:It's fucking nine at night and I'm recording this right now.
Marc:And I wrote all day.
Marc:And this morning I did an interview.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:And the only thing that's making me sane is I learned how to make this this bread that I that I've always been curious about.
Marc:That's how I take a break.
Marc:I'm going to engage in the artistry of baking.
Marc:It's not even a real bread.
Marc:It's more of this dense brick.
Marc:There's a place in New York called Angelica.
Marc:It's a vegan place, but they make this sort of brick-like rice bread that I always thought was some sort of mystery.
Marc:But it's weird with food.
Marc:You just go online and you look up something and it's like, I wonder if I can make that.
Marc:And you're like, holy shit, I can make this.
Marc:So now I have an entire brick.
Marc:of this rice bread it's literally a dense brick-like substance and uh i have no family i have no uh no people you know sarah i give sarah half of it but i'm still left with half a massive brick of rice bread and uh you know what i do with that shove it in my face
Marc:So whatever health elements might have been at the core of it, the idea of it are lost because I've just consumed the equivalent of 90 bowls of rice and five bowls of oatmeal.
Marc:Sounds good.
Marc:A lot of carbs.
Marc:I'm about to fall asleep.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Now.
Marc:I know a lot of you are going to be like, are you going to have Robert and Flea back separately to not just, you know, to talk separately?
Marc:But I think you'll be surprised at how much we were able to cover and also the interaction between these two guys who, you know, have been around L.A.
Marc:for a long time talking about bass, talking about bands.
Marc:It was a real fucking thrill to have Flea in here and to have Robert Trujillo in here and also to be part of people seeing this movie, Jaco.
Marc:The film is pretty amazing and it's a documentary of a real American genius.
Marc:And as I said before, there's a premiere and a concert this Sunday, November 22nd at the Ace in Los Angeles.
Marc:And you can get tickets for that and info on screenings.
Marc:You can pre-order the Blu-ray and DVD at jacothefilm.com.
Marc:So now let's talk to Robert Trujillo and Flea.
Guest:Sonny had a Harry Potter party, and I dressed up like Dumbledore.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And my friend in my guest house dressed up like Voldemort, and we had owls, all this stuff.
Guest:What?
Guest:We had a bottle with the wands.
Guest:I was up all night.
Guest:Was that your kid?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had seven little girls sleep over my house last night.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Mayhem, pandemonium.
Guest:No sleep?
Guest:Fucking insanity.
Guest:No sleepy sleeps.
Marc:But it must have been probably more fun than a night of blow.
Marc:Anything's more fun than a night of blow.
Marc:Well, look, I want to talk to both of you guys because did you guys know each other when you were kids?
Marc:Not like we were young adults.
Marc:Young adults.
Guest:When did you meet?
Guest:Because you both grew up in the area, right?
Guest:It's hard to remember because it was a while ago, but I remember you in this very colorful...
Guest:mercedes-benz with multi-colored yeah it looked like a like a jigsaw puzzle yeah and i just got off tour with suicidal tendencies and we're driving from i'm driving from the airport yeah whoever i was with and i look to my right and i see flea and he was with some rasta guy some dude with dreadlocks and he's no shirt yeah he's picking his nose you know like picking a winner
Guest:And that was a classic moment.
Guest:I didn't even want to say hi to him.
Guest:We met before that, though.
Guest:No, we met before.
Guest:We met at the Roxy, I remember.
Guest:And over to Stephen Perkins.
Guest:Yeah, with Stephen.
Guest:Actually, Infectious Grooves had played a show at the Palace in Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah, I remember that.
Guest:And you were there.
Guest:And that was when I first started jamming with Stephen.
Guest:And, I mean, everybody was there.
Guest:It was kind of a crazy scene.
Guest:Who was the Rasta guy?
Guest:Was it Clinton?
Guest:Was it George Clinton?
Guest:Yeah, who was that Rasta guy back in the day?
Guest:It might have been D.H.
Guest:Peligro.
Guest:D.H.
Guest:I know D.H.
Guest:Yeah, it might have been Dirty D. Yeah, I see him around at the things.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:So you guys didn't ever play on the same bill when you were kids, because you were both kicking around.
Marc:When did you start playing bass?
Guest:I knew about Robert.
Guest:From Suicidal Tendency.
Guest:From Suicidal, and before that, I just knew Robert was a bass player around.
Guest:To be reckoned with?
Guest:Just a dude that played bass that could rock.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But you lived in Venice, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:They used to call me the Mexicasualty.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Mexicasualty.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And then Zach Wild used to call me the Whiskey Warlord because of this phase I went through with Crown and Ginger.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Crown Royal, yeah.
Guest:You know, you get these nicknames.
Guest:Sure, man.
Marc:So who were the bands you guys, like when you were coming up, like early on, you were living in Venice, and where were you living?
Marc:Up here?
Guest:Yeah, well, I was born in Australia.
Guest:I left Australia when I was four.
Guest:I moved to New York.
Guest:I left New York when I was 11 in 1972 and moved to Hollywood, 72.
Marc:So that's when the Hollywood started.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And your dad was a musician?
Guest:My stepdad was a jazz musician, so I was brought up around jazz.
Guest:And that was the first thing that you sort of gravitated towards?
Guest:Yeah, I wanted to be a jazz trumpet player when I was a kid.
Guest:And that was my first thing.
Guest:And then in high school, the bass just came up and rock bands, and I stood a much better chance of getting laid.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:So it was about pussy?
Guest:It was all about pussy.
Guest:For you too?
Guest:For me, pussy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, I guess at a certain point it was.
Guest:You know, I think that's something that... I talk to a lot of performers where it's like, that was it.
Guest:How are you going to do it?
Guest:You know, you think about it, you think about back in the day, and it's all about all of that.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Some of my fondest memories playing music, even up to today, were playing backyard parties in Venice, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we played everything from Van Halen to Jimi Hendrix to Ozzy, who I eventually started to work with over the years, which was kind of surreal.
Guest:But we even played La Via Strangiato by Rush.
Guest:Boom, boom, boom.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, we were always trying to go for the challenge.
Guest:Yeah, we did in YYZ.
Guest:I don't know how good we played it, but we tried.
Guest:But before that, growing up, my parents were into a lot of different styles of music, so I had a lot of Motown and James Brown in my life.
Guest:And as well as, you know, like sabicas, because my dad was a flamenco guitar player.
Guest:He was?
Guest:So that's how, yeah, I mean by hobby, but that's why I remember seeing that fingering style.
Guest:And that's kind of how I started playing.
Guest:It was, I didn't play with a pick initially.
Guest:It was all sort of finger.
Guest:Is that where you got that chord thing going?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Probably, you know, when you're young, you know, super young, like, I mean, I was a baby and that's the first instrument I saw being played was a, you know, a nylon flamenco guitar.
Guest:Flamenco, yeah.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:And then over the years, I started to discover other styles of music.
Guest:But funk, like funk music, like the Ohio Players, the first concert I ever went to was the Isley Brothers in like 1975 or something.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Or 76.
Marc:Ohio Players, that was fire.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And rollercoaster.
Guest:Yeah, rollercoaster.
Guest:And all baby programs.
Guest:But the Isley brothers were like bringing riffs.
Guest:They were bringing like the metal to the funk.
Guest:So, you know, that's when I discovered bass and here I am.
Guest:Patti Smith told me that she was at her high school prom...
Guest:In Chicago, two bands were playing at a high school prom.
Guest:Like one in a real popular room and she went in there and all the kids were in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was, I don't know, some lame top 40 band.
Guest:And she went to the other room and no one was in there.
Guest:And the Isley brothers were in there playing with Hendrix on guitar.
Guest:What?
Guest:Fucking Jimmy Hendrix on guitar at her high school prom with the Isley brothers.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:He was with them for like a couple of years, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, a little phase before he met, what's his name from the animals?
Guest:Eric Burden.
Marc:So when you were starting out, you were playing jazz when you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah, I was getting ready to play jazz.
Guest:I was playing trumpet, and I was very into it and romancing it.
Guest:Bebop and the whole life?
Guest:Bebop.
Guest:Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie.
Guest:I met Dizzy Gillespie when I was a kid.
Guest:I was around jazz all the time.
Guest:Art Pepper?
Guest:Yeah, Art Pepper.
Guest:Was he around?
Marc:Did your dad know those guys?
Guest:No, but he played with Dizzy a little bit.
Guest:He played with Philly Joe Jones.
Guest:He played with some guys, but he never really made it happen.
Guest:His people skills weren't so good.
Guest:Heroin is never good for stuff.
Marc:So he was one of those guys that got the heroin, but not so much.
Guest:No, he's a great player.
Guest:I don't mean to marginalize.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:No, unfortunately, he died a few years ago.
Marc:But he got strung out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he got real strung out.
Guest:And he got straight.
Guest:He got on the program and got straight and stuff.
Guest:But I grew up loving jazz.
Guest:But just talking about Robert and I coming up as bass players in LA, I was thinking when I was driving up here, I was thinking one of the great...
Guest:feel-good stories and the history of rock is when Robert Trujillo joins Metallica.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like we all saw the movie and we saw that moment and I remember seeing that and it was like so heartwarming and beautiful, you know, and you join Metallica and it's like so great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But for me and for other people that I know who like came up in the club scene in LA playing, it was like a victory for all of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, you know, for all the LA homies, it was like, Robert Trujillo is in fucking Metallica.
Guest:And this is cool.
Guest:Like, it was just, like, not only was it a match made in heaven, but it was just awesome.
Guest:Like, it was just such a great, beautiful thing.
Guest:Was that a big day for you?
Guest:It was a very surreal day for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was.
Guest:But when you get a gig like that, you know, it's so strange, really.
Guest:Strange is the word because I remember going up there.
Guest:I was late.
Guest:I was always late back then.
Guest:For the audition?
Guest:This had been in 2003.
Guest:I'll tell you a quick story about the audition.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's go to the audition.
Guest:Basically, it was a two-day audition, the first day of the audition.
Guest:I was kind of just there to be a fly on the wall.
Guest:Bob Rock's there.
Guest:The bass had already been recorded.
Guest:Bob Rock recorded the bass.
Guest:So I'm just hanging around.
Guest:And Lars and James and Kirk kind of live in this bubble.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:And they were just like, yeah, make yourself at home.
Guest:Just hang out.
Guest:And I'm just kind of hanging out in this big complex.
Guest:Is it up in the Bay Area?
Guest:Yeah, up north.
Guest:And I'm kind of lost because no one's really completely communicating with me and I'm just there.
Guest:And okay, so I'm in the control room and I'm just there.
Guest:They're cutting tracks and that's it, hanging around.
Guest:11 o'clock rolls around at night and Lars, we're in the parking lot where the last one's leaving and Lars says, hey man,
Guest:Let's go get a drink.
Guest:Let's go get a nightcap.
Guest:So I'm like, all right.
Guest:And we go to the first bar, have a couple cocktails.
Guest:We go to the second bar, have a few more, go to the third bar.
Guest:Then we end up at his house for more cocktails.
Guest:By this time, it's five in the morning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't even drive to wherever I'm staying.
Guest:It's impossible.
Guest:And he even says, here's to crash out my guest room.
Guest:So at nine in the morning, four hours later, he's on the treadmill, this guy.
Guest:And it's like he doesn't know me anymore.
Guest:He's already sobered up and he's on a treadmill.
Guest:And I've got this crazy headache.
Guest:And then he's like, all right, let's go.
Guest:Let's go to the studio.
Guest:And I'm driving behind him, you know.
Guest:Couldn't even keep my eyes open.
Guest:I get to the studio.
Guest:And this is when they were going through this sort of therapy thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:This guy called Phil Toll.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Who was a... That's in the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like a... He was... What do they call it?
Guest:Like kind of a life coach, kind of a motivator, which was at the time, I guess, good for the band.
Guest:But I wasn't used to that.
Guest:I was just...
Guest:and here i am with a pounding headache james has just gone through this whole thing where of course he's sober right the last person he wants to see anywhere near his band is a drunk mexican you know and so what happened me that would be me it's a casualty it's a casualty was in full effect so i'm sitting at the table and i'm like got the worst headache
Guest:completely hungover and and i'm thinking lars did this to me because he was you know checking me out to see if i could hang with a test it was the test i it had to have been yeah he's a viking really yeah yeah and um so i came up with the eye because i go into the bathroom i was throwing water on my face slapping it going oh man you gotta hang in there hang in there because i really wanted to say i can't do this right now guys i don't feel good you know
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really can't do this.
Guest:I stuck it out.
Guest:I knew the tech, the bass tech from back when Suicidal Tendencies was touring with Metallica, which would have been in 1993 on the Black Album.
Guest:So those guys knew you.
Guest:They knew me from back then.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And here we are 10 years later.
Guest:And so Zach Harmon, who is now still my bass tech...
Guest:I didn't have a bass, so, oh, well, let's go grab a bass.
Guest:Let's choose the amp setup.
Guest:So I kind of used that as my way to get out of this hangover situation.
Guest:And when I watch Some Kind of Monster, I see myself wearing this brown Armani T-shirt, which I would never own in my life.
Guest:You know why?
Guest:Because it's not mine.
Guest:It's Lars's.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:His wife at the time, Skyler, gave me that shirt because the one I'd been wearing, which was probably pretty funky, was not happening.
Guest:So anyway, I'm sure he was sizing me up.
Guest:How'd you perform?
Guest:We played battery, and I think it helped me not be nervous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what you see in the film, and everybody seems to think it was pretty slamming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But other than that, I was brain dead.
Guest:If I could play, I was fine.
Guest:But in communicating with Hetfield, because he would come over to me and ask me questions, and I would come up with really stupid answers because literally I was not all there.
Guest:Yeah, you were fucked up.
Guest:I was, man.
Marc:So Flea, in a relative way, you were pretty young when you met Anthony, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we were 15.
Marc:So where was the moment where you knew you had a fucking band?
Guest:Well, we were inseparable from when we were 15.
Guest:Literally, I mean, we did everything together.
Guest:Bad stuff.
Guest:We were bad kids.
Guest:We were robbing houses and hustling drugs and stealing and just bad.
Guest:Not playing music?
Guest:was playing music he had no interest in playing music right yeah I was playing in bands and you know I started playing in Iraq I was getting ready I know I was a couple years away from playing in a rock band but I was playing trumpet and I was dead set on being a musician and then I joined a band with some high school buddies and we were all friends and Anthony wanted to be an actor but he would introduce us yeah he had this whole like spiel it's real slick spiel he
Guest:You know, their fathers call them crazy, the girls call them all the time, but I call them like I see them and I call them anthem!
Guest:And we'd come out and start rocking our jams.
Guest:What kind of music was that?
Guest:Kind of like Prague, La Via Strangiata kind of rock, you know?
Guest:Nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we had our moments.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Anthony went to go see Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five in 1982.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just or no, yeah 82 and 82 and freaked out like we had we knew hip-hop a little bit, but we didn't really know right They had their first hit the message out.
Guest:Yeah, so grandmaster flash and he was like I want to rap because he didn't ever consider that he could sing right But I want to rap and I was like, well, you know, I live for the funk I mean, you know, yeah, I play funk all day long right and so I just like cooked up some fun grooves and he started rapping on him and literally
Guest:We never had a rehearsal.
Guest:Our first gig, we just kind of talked about it in my living room with Jack Irons and Hello Slovak.
Guest:And I was like, you go, you know, and we just went out and did it.
Guest:And the next time we played, like, you know, two weeks later, it was lines around the block and it just never stopped.
Guest:I remember seeing them at the music machine in, I guess it would be like sort of Santa Monica, West LA, over on Pico.
Guest:And it was a great show, small club.
Guest:And I remember Anthony, he had a flu or something, but he was still kicking ass and he was throwing loogies everywhere, spitting them out.
Guest:They were green and ugly.
Guest:But anyway, they sounded great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's because back then with Suicidal Tendencies, Rocky, Rocky George, who got me in the band, that's who I went to high school with, he was talking about this amazing bass player called Flea.
Guest:And I always liked bass players with one name, like Jocko.
Guest:Soccer players.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:It's sort of this unique breed of characters.
Marc:But for you guys, like bass players, you guys are like up front, you know, full on performers.
Marc:Like, you know, like historically, the bass player is just a dude hanging out in the back.
Guest:Right.
Marc:At some point, you guys, you know, well, you took a front seat.
Guest:I think Robert and I are kind of from that generation of bass players that first kind of started.
Guest:I mean, not for the fusion guys or the jazz guys where they were already like, you know, virtuosos.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But in terms of in like the rock world, the youth culture, rock music for sure.
Guest:Watt too?
Guest:Oh, Watt for sure.
Guest:I had him in here.
Guest:He's got his own language.
Guest:He's got everything.
Guest:He's got it all.
Guest:He's a spiritual master.
Guest:He is, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So he was a little before you?
Guest:I heard Perkins tell me he was showing up on tour when he was playing in Point of Papyrus.
Guest:He showed up on tour with his base, no suitcase, toothbrush in his flannel pocket, and that was it.
Guest:A shirt, a pair of pants, a base, a toothbrush, I'm ready to go.
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:For like a six month tour.
Guest:Straight from San Pedro, man.
Marc:Were you guys contemporaries or was he a little before?
Guest:Contemporaries, but another quick Watt.
Guest:So I was on a tour with Watt once and he had diarrhea really bad.
Marc:Was that with the sickness he had with that thing?
Guest:He had some diarrhea.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He got diarrhea.
Guest:He got sick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he went out on stage and just tied his pants shut at the bottom.
Guest:I was not tired.
Guest:I think he told me about that.
Guest:Tied them shut and just went out there and rocked.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Filled those babies up like some MC Hammer pants.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:When was a trick for you, Flea, where you sort of defined your style?
Marc:Was it that moment when Cadiz wanted to rap and you just got on board with that funk thing?
Guest:Yeah, kind of.
Guest:And before that, I joined this band called Fear.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they were a real- With what's his- With Lee Vang and Spitsteaks and Philo Kramer.
Guest:Were you in the original crew?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, they kicked their bass player out for a drug problem.
Guest:And so I joined, and it was so intense and hard, and I really started getting into punk rock, which was a new thing for me.
Marc:Like who?
Marc:Which guys?
Guest:You know, all the L.A.
Guest:bands.
Guest:I like Germs, Fear, X, the Weirdos, the Screamers, Bags.
Guest:I like the L.A.
Guest:bands.
Guest:And then it expanded.
Guest:But I like that.
Guest:It was like they're the contemporaries, the guys on the scene that I looked up to.
Guest:And I just started really feeling that intensity, the intensity, the immediacy.
Guest:There was something about it that struck a chord in me in a really intense way.
Guest:And because I grew up loving funk, and that was just really my thing, was funk,
Guest:I started applying that to funk and I started like playing funk really aggressively Yeah, yeah, and like, you know when I say what she bass players play There's a sky in my high school like I would see the black guys play bass and they all slapped Yeah, and so I was like, whoa, that's where it's at and so I started learning to slap Yeah, and so I was doing that and then punk rock came and then it was just you know, it's just
Guest:I just started being really violent and aggressive about it.
Guest:With the slapping.
Guest:Yeah, and found my own style.
Guest:And that was like 81, 82.
Marc:And that was before you recorded anything, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now with the Suicidal Tendencies, that was straight up hard punk rock and roll.
Guest:Well, when I first, back in, I guess it would have been 83, 84, I went to a jazz school called Dick Grove School of Music in Studio City.
Guest:And I was there for a year hanging with all these jazz cats that were, some of them were a little older than me.
Guest:It was funny because we would go to MI as a tribe and our best guitar players would duel against their best guitar players, but they had all these kind of hip...
Guest:younger teachers and our guys were a little older.
Guest:Our guys were kind of like, my main teacher at the time was a guy called Max Bennett, who was actually the bass player with Joni Mitchell.
Guest:He played on some of those albums that Jaco played on.
Guest:Oh really?
Guest:And he was an awesome bass player, but he was kind of wild and crazy.
Guest:He played in a band called the LA Express, and he had a bass strap that was leather, and it had all these couples in sexual positions, like 69 position and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:With the horoscope?
Guest:All that stuff, man.
Guest:The full sexual band.
Guest:guitar stuff he's kind of wild like that and then he lasted about half the year and the the guy that took over from was a guy called joel de bartolo who was the bass player for uh johnny carson show doc severinson band yeah he was a wonderful teacher so i went to jazz school and then the minute i got out it's like i never plays jazz again and a couple years after that i ended up joining suicidal tendencies and
Guest:So I was playing really high, like my bass was all up by my chin, like level 42.
Guest:Like not cool?
Guest:It was not cool.
Guest:I didn't know that at the time.
Guest:And then when I played my first show in Germany with Suicidal Tendencies opening for Anthrax, it was like this mosh pit that I'd never... I mean, I loved suicidal.
Guest:I used to wear the cap and dig the music, but to be on stage and play that music in Europe, especially Germany, was so intense that I mean, I was laughing because I was so happy.
Guest:And gradually, obviously, the bass came down lower, lower, and lower, and lower.
Guest:But that was sort of my initiation.
Guest:And then, of course, I discovered bands like Slayer and, of course, Metallica.
Guest:But the slapping thing for me, I was always doing that.
Guest:And just like Flea said, I applied it to my style, which was...
Guest:Again, aggressive, thinking more percussive, just being progressive and bringing... I always thought of it as a punching bag, like the heavy bag.
Marc:So it was a different timing too, right?
Marc:Because Flea's popping funk and you're just integrating it into pounding rock.
Guest:Yeah, well, into the, you know, to whatever thrash or whatever you want to call it.
Guest:But, again, you know, I think Flea and I are pretty experimental in what we like to do and we like so many different styles of music.
Guest:There's really no rules, you know.
Guest:But, again, with that style of bass, you know, I always wanted to treat it like, you know, like you're in the Amazon jungle and you're just, ah, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, what's the relationship with like, because the rhythm sections, you got to hold the whole shit together.
Marc:I mean, it's really on you, right?
Marc:And the drummer.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I'm sure Robert agrees with me that playing with a great drummer that really has pocket and groove and you can just like live inside that beat and get inside kick drum and stuff is just a really uplifting feeling.
Marc:Because it's just you two in a way, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, it's everybody, but when you can really get intimate with a drummer playing like that, it's such a great, awesome feeling.
Guest:And I've been so fortunate to play with a number of incredible drummers in my life, and it's just always...
Marc:Well, that's what's wild about you.
Marc:You've been in a lot of bands, and you've been brought into a lot of bands, and you've had to hold one band together for decades now.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:We're in our 34th year, I think.
Guest:It's crazy, man.
Guest:Who would have thunk?
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know how many drummers and guitar players you've gone through?
Guest:Guitar players, I think...
Guest:I think seven.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And drummers, we've had the same drummer since 88 or 89.
Guest:So just like three drummers.
Guest:But we had like three before that.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Four drummers, I think.
Marc:And the guy now, he's like the solid guy.
Marc:He's been there forever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's solid.
Marc:And you've had John Frusciante twice?
Guest:Twice, yeah.
Guest:And now we have Josh Klinghoffer.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:And it's weird, because who was that one dude?
Marc:Who played on...
Marc:with mofo hello Slovak right so he passed away he passed away yeah cuz I that was the first chili peppers out of my herd and I was like you know this guy is like he's like doing something like Hendrix II he definitely yeah well he was he will we all loved Hendrix growing up that was for us like in my group of guys there's our God yeah but you too
Guest:yeah yeah but um but when we really get into the gang of four when we came out and like echo and the bunnyman and at English post-punk sound yeah and so rather at Hallel really like started getting really into Andy Gill and and will sergeant from echo and the bunnyman and and fun and so getting into that kind of like yeah that kind of aesthetic like angular weird effects colors like synth kind of sounds yeah yeah yeah and I'm up you know and so you know he had a unique sound it's cool
Marc:And when he started playing with, like, making the shift from suicidal tendencies to, like, you know, playing with somebody like Ozzy, you know, how do you integrate... You know the songs already.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But how do you find... Are there moments within songs, like when you're playing with Ozzy, where he's, like, he gives you some freedom and, you know, you can kind of find your own space with him?
Guest:Yeah, there was actually... Ozzy would like to take a long break in the middle of the show, and it was during a song called Suicide Solution.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At the time, I had the good fortune of playing with not only Zach Wild for a few years, but also a wonderful guitar player by the name of Joe Holmes.
Guest:And with Joe, we had created this solo section in the middle of Suicide Solution where the bass actually went into kind of a low-range percussive...
Guest:groove and he would just rip you know Hendrix style solo over it and then that carried on to touring with Zach as well but it was a dream for me because you know growing up playing in backyard party bands and we're playing you know like songs like of course Crazy Train and even obscure songs like SATO and Believer, Believer was always one of my favorite songs, Over the Mountain and then to
Guest:to join nazi's band and be on stage playing sweet leaf or iron man right that's where the crab walk kind of came to be because i was testing him um he got in front of me he got in my face and i started doing this sumo wrestler kind of move and he did it with me so we were feeding off each other that would have been the second show and i remember it was las vegas and it was super tight and great
Guest:So it was just a surreal moment for me to be playing with my hero.
Guest:That's one of the things I think that Flea can also sort of vouch for.
Guest:As we've grown as musicians, you know, you're meeting your heroes.
Guest:Like recently there was a show at the Hollywood Bowl celebrating Jaco Pastorius.
Guest:And I got to meet Herbie Hancock for the first time.
Guest:And I had met Wayne Shorter when we interviewed him.
Guest:But, you know, just seeing those guys interact and...
Guest:in meeting Peter Erskine, well actually being able to play with Peter a little bit, and just Booker T and all these guys.
Marc:He's a great guy.
Guest:It was really a moment for me, and then meeting even people like Jimmy Page.
Guest:You never met him before?
Guest:I had met him in recent years with Metallica, and then Lemmy's become a really good friend of mine.
Guest:In fact, last night I presented a Lifetime Achievement Award to him for Bass Player Magazine.
Guest:How's he doing?
Guest:He's doing okay.
Guest:He's going on tour tomorrow, today actually, and that worries me because I think he should be resting, but Lemmy doesn't want to rest, man.
Guest:He wants to play rock and roll.
Guest:I had him in here.
Guest:He was pretty wiped out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's got the cane.
Guest:He's a soldier.
Guest:Yeah, he sure is a soldier.
Guest:I'll tell you an interesting thing that happened a few months.
Guest:Well, it would have been about a year ago.
Guest:I had played a special show celebrating Keith Moon and John Antwistle at the House of Blues, and I invited Joni Mitchell.
Guest:I didn't think she was going to show up, but Lemmy was there because he was receiving yet another award.
Guest:And he and I are talking.
Guest:He's to the left of me, and he's smoking like a chimney.
Guest:And all of a sudden, I see Joni walk in.
Guest:I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:you know, oh my God.
Guest:Joni and Lemmy.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:She sits to the right of me and I got Lemmy to the left of me.
Guest:They're both chain smoking.
Guest:And I'm like, this is the most beautiful smoke I've ever inhaled in my life.
Guest:Lemmy smoke and Joni Mitchell smoke.
Guest:And she looks over.
Guest:Lemmy doesn't really say anything.
Guest:And she looks over and he looks over.
Guest:And I say, oh, okay.
Guest:Well, Lemmy, this is my good friend Joni Mitchell.
Guest:Joni, this is Lemmy.
Guest:And she looks over at him.
Guest:big old drag of the cigarette goes hello hello hello uh lemmy like that yeah yeah yeah and then lemmy looks over at her he takes a big drag of the cigarette it's like joanie what fucking chords were you playing on court and spark i could never figure that out you know
Guest:Or with his voice, Joni, what four chords were you playing?
Guest:And she starts to tell him.
Guest:She goes, well, Lenny, I do open core tuning, and that's how I write my songs.
Guest:And they had this conversation.
Guest:I was just sitting in the middle of this happier than a pig in shit.
Guest:It's like two originals that are still true to their music, high hearts.
Guest:Always.
Guest:Always.
Marc:Well, that's a good way to start in talking about the movie Jocko, the documentary, which I saw, I think, pretty close to this cut, right?
Marc:That screening?
Guest:Pretty close to it.
Guest:Obviously, all the technical stuff has been completely dialed in.
Guest:And meaning sound design.
Guest:And there's some other edits that we had done.
Guest:When you saw it, there was no intro credits or closing credits.
Guest:And it's been a long haul.
Guest:I mean, we're going six years into this.
Guest:In fact, Flea's a trooper because we had to interview him twice.
Guest:We interviewed him the first year.
Guest:And the sound wasn't good because the team that I had at the time didn't have their shit together.
Guest:So we had bad sound.
Guest:And he was wearing a Lakers T-shirt, which is beautiful to celebrate the Lakers, but it's not good when you're trying to finance something like this.
Guest:And so we had to come back a year later, and he was like, no problem.
Guest:I mean, three hours on the first one, and then another three hours, and he was there for me.
Marc:Well, that's out of friendship for you, and I imagine respect for Jocko.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Well, Jocko is one of these guys.
Marc:What I want to ask you in terms of your heroes, like Bootsy Collins, I imagine, for you had a big impact, did he?
Guest:For sure.
Marc:And for you, when you talk about somebody like Lemmy, what makes Lemmy special as a bass player?
Guest:Well, Lemmy's special because, well, I love his usage of chords.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I love his sound and, you know, the fact that he's really an outlaw, you know, of rock and roll.
Guest:And he's got that swagger.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like Clint Eastwood.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Guest:And in a lot of ways, Jocko was the same way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jocko was a daredevil, too, and he...
Guest:he was true to what he was doing um though they come from i know i like to say refer to it as styles right but the edge in the attitude is the same and and i love that well i'd always heard about like i'd heard about jaco like when i was younger and i was not a jazz head and it's interesting before for a guy that you know on the edge and that brilliant and that possessed by
Marc:by musical brilliance.
Marc:Like that music, I didn't listen to Weather Report when I was a kid.
Marc:There was no way I was going to hear it, and I never knew who he was, but I'd always heard he was this crazy fucker that was a genius, and it didn't end well.
Marc:So when I saw the documentary, which is powerful and moving, and you got the support of his family, so you were able to get the real story and the whole story and the arc of what he was involved in and what made him so amazing, it's fucking heartbreaking, the cost of talent and sort of mental illness that comes with genius sometimes.
Guest:Well, that's what I wanted to share with the world.
Guest:Number one, who my biggest influence was as a bass player.
Guest:And also, again, the amazing story.
Guest:And to celebrate that music in that time.
Guest:I had so many young people come up to me today and say, hey, I just want you to know I'm now a fan of Jaco Pastorius and Weather Report and Joni Mitchell.
Guest:you know there's a movement with vinyl right now yeah i'm in it with record store a lot of money yeah yeah i mean i never left it either and but the fact that now people are reconnecting with music from from that time period and even before is really special and um jaco was really diverse i mean he loved all styles of music you know and he was super super funky
Guest:So people are connecting with that now, and that's what this film's all about.
Guest:It's not just a life story, but it's also a story about the time and music.
Guest:And also, like you said, mental.
Guest:When I see homeless people now, I'm not sitting there judging them, because I know there's more to it than that.
Marc:Well, yeah, the fact that he ended up homeless after playing with Joni.
Marc:And after like well into his career, he lost it a little bit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's like it's totally devastating.
Marc:But like he's also remains this kind of romantic figure, you know, in his struggles with mental illness and also just his persistence.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Again, I use the word daredevil.
Guest:You know, Wayne Shorter in the film calls him a superhero.
Guest:And and I think that's fitting.
Guest:When did you first hear Jaco?
Guest:You know, those Weather Report records.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, Mr. Gone and Heavy Weather and stuff.
Guest:And you were able to identify, like, through the rest of the sound, like, that guy's, like... Yeah, well, I mean, it was a shockingly bizarre, bold, new sound that I'd never heard before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's the sound of the fretless bass with the chorus pedal on it.
Guest:It was just insane, man.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'd never heard anything like it.
Guest:And, you know, as much as it was, like, mind-blowingly, this, like, psychedelic, virtuoso beauty that was just...
Guest:And it was such a warm sound that really envelops you.
Guest:But like you said, part of the movie, of course, to support Robert's endeavor, but just anything to shine light on a guy that gave us so much.
Guest:And because he was not a pop star is relatively obscure to the general public.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because people, they like pop music.
Right.
Guest:And we both saw him play around the same time.
Guest:Flea and I both, we weren't there together, but I know you saw him at the Hollywood Bowl.
Guest:I saw him at the Hollywood Bowl with Weather Report, but I also saw him in 1979 at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium.
Guest:And what I saw in 1979 just changed my life on so many levels.
Guest:I saw a very diverse crowd.
Guest:I saw punkers,
Guest:Metalheads, jazzers, I saw skateboarders and surfers, because Santa Monica Civic is one block from the beach.
Guest:And then I also saw a guy that reminded me of the tribe that I used to see at Venice Beach skating and surfing.
Guest:And so I thought it was really cool.
Guest:And what I've learned in the film, I mean, that guy really loved the beach.
Guest:I mean, half the film, he's in shorts, he's got no shirt, and he's body surfing or playing Frisbee.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I just thought, this guy is super, super rad.
Guest:He's so cool.
Guest:And then just taking command of the stage, I saw him.
Guest:He put his bass down on one side of the stage.
Guest:He took a running start, and he slid into his bass.
Guest:It was sliding into home plate.
Guest:And that was just really cool.
Guest:So that night changed my life.
Guest:And then I saw him three times after that.
Guest:Did you meet him?
Guest:Doing backflips and shit.
Guest:Oh, yeah, all that stuff.
Guest:He did backflips?
Guest:Oh, yeah, he would do a backflip on stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, he was incredible.
Guest:That's what he'd do.
Guest:But also, it's like the story, like for me, it's Jocko's story.
Guest:And you know it a lot better than me, Robert.
Guest:I know it fairly well.
Guest:But it's really like this archetypal story of like you're talking about, like this brilliance, like how much is to be that brilliant, how much mental illness has to accompany you to have that sort of discipline to focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else.
Guest:But as well, it's like, I feel like it's like this archetypal man thing to like go out and slay dragons.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like you leave your family and you go out in the world and you're going to fuck shit up and you're going to win your, beat your demons, your personal demons or exterior demons, depending how you grew up, what they are.
Guest:But we all have them to some extent in some way.
Guest:And you arm yourself with whatever weapons you can, which in Jaco's case was this base, you know, that he creates this
Guest:beautiful weapon this beautiful fucking thing that's capable of like you know just really touching people's hearts and blowing people's minds but ultimately he can't slay that dragon and he loses yeah because because the mental illness and the drugs overcome him and he ends up you know becoming too self-destructive and dying and it's so like the story of mankind you know even though sometimes people win
Guest:But it's like you ever read Beowulf?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like that kind of shit.
Guest:It's like this age old, since the beginning of time, we all have to have these serious battles that we have to fight and we have to do it.
Guest:It's either that or just be nothing.
Guest:Right, disappear.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Disappear and become an empty person.
Marc:And also there's that feeling like I imagine you feel it and both you guys like when you are an artist, you know, you have your life, you have your demons, you have the troubles that exist in the real world.
Marc:But when you get up on stage, it's different.
Marc:The whole world is different.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But maybe like the bigger the battle, the more intense you have to be.
Guest:And that's why someone like Jocko is so great.
Guest:And didn't he invent the fretless electric bass kind of?
Guest:Well, actually, James Jamerson might have been the one who, at least for electric bass, that's debatable.
Guest:It's like people with Tony Alva back in the day as a skater.
Guest:Did he do the first air?
Guest:There's a lot of people in San Bernardino that probably said, I did the first air.
Guest:Fuck that shit, man.
Guest:But Jaco made the fretless bass sing like...
Guest:like it hadn't happened before.
Guest:I mean, he gave it a voice, a melodic voice, um, that was just so powerful and dynamic.
Guest:And he was such a great collaborator with that instrument, whether he was collaborating with Joni Mitchell or collaborating with Ian Hunter, you know, um, on the song all American alien boy, he, he was very young at that time.
Guest:And the solo on that, on that song might be one of the greatest rock bass solos, you know, uh, uh,
Guest:ever and not a lot of people have heard it so you know he would again a great collaborator with a with a very unique sound and powerful sound that could be so beautiful but also so angry and yeah and in just abrasive in a beautiful kind of way you know and so like
Guest:Instantly identifiable.
Guest:I can't think of another musician ever really in the history of music with a more instantly identifiable sound.
Guest:A bass player, just an instrument in a band, like the second you hear it, it's him.
Guest:And there's no question.
Guest:It's like, oh, could that be some studio guy maybe who was aping him?
Guest:No.
Guest:Because no one could ever do it.
Guest:And a million guys tried.
Guest:they did and no one could come not even close like it's so mildly transcendent above everything else no one could come close i was listening this morning i listened to don juan's reckless daughter right it's like give me a fucking break of the power and the beauty of it like like like like you feel like in the beauty you feel the vulnerability and the anger too like you said you know and the violence but it's just like liquid love man fuck it's like magic
Marc:Like, I mean, because it's weird, because somebody can be an amazing virtuoso, but not have that fucking depth or feel.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So do you remember, like, for you, Flea, Robert was talking about, you know, jazz and everything else, but when you were coming up, who was the bass player that you identified as, like, the guy that was like, I'm going that way?
Guest:When I started playing bass?
Yeah.
Guest:man i don't know i i i was so into trumpet players you know but the first i just liked bass lines and stuff i mean jaco was the first guy where it's like this is the greatest electric bass player on earth there's no question this is the greatest guy yeah but there are just guys i like the way certain guys sound in certain bands that aren't really the greatest guys yeah you know what i mean like i love but i love billy cox yeah yeah
Guest:Like, I really love Billy Cox's playing in the Band of Gypsies.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's just really simple, hypnotic bass, but it touches me, you know?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And, you know, Paul McCartney's bass playing is stellar and, like, unbelievable.
Marc:Phil Lesh, where does Phil Lesh stand in the Pantheon?
Guest:Phil Lesh is great.
Guest:I mean, you know, he's kind of created his own thing, you know, and obviously...
Guest:there's a lot of jam bands out there that you know are pulling something from him and whistle and whistle yeah he's he's awesome geezer butler from sabbath yeah yeah yeah so bad and he wrote most of those fucking songs right yeah the lyrics geezer's the guy
Marc:Who wrote most of yours?
Guest:Do you write with Anthony?
Guest:We all write together communally.
Guest:And usually the songs always start with either... I mean, not always, but 90% of the time start with either something I came up with or the guitar player came up with.
Marc:And in the movie, you've got Geddy Lee, you've got Sting, you've got... Who are some of the other best players?
Guest:You've got Jerry Jermont.
Guest:Jerry Jermont was Jocko's favorite electric bass player.
Guest:He was incredible, man.
Guest:Yeah, he's amazing.
Guest:At your show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dude.
Guest:And he's another guy that's been, had demons following around for many, many years.
Guest:But he played on B.B.
Guest:King, The Thrill Is Gone.
Guest:He played with Aretha Franklin.
Guest:He even played on Mr. Bojangles, that song, back in the day.
Guest:Mr. Bojangles.
Guest:And he came up with Muscle Shoals and Dwayne Allman back in the day.
Guest:They were like the band.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And early on.
Guest:And then he kind of stepped away from that and just was a total session guy around New York and everything.
Guest:And...
Guest:so anthony jackson you know you know i mean he cut that track when he was like 17 man you know and we and he's not in the film but we did interview him and he's he's in our bonus uh section you know there's just so many so many tremendous uh players that were involved in what about sting you guys like sting
Guest:You know, it's funny for me.
Guest:I like him fine.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:But, I mean, it's a weird thing for me is that when I was young, I loved The Police.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, around the time when I started playing rock and bass, too, I really loved The Police.
Guest:But it's the one band that just... And it's really the only band.
Guest:Like, any band I listen to, I go put on the record, and I'm like, I love it as much as when I was 15 or 20 or whatever.
Guest:But, like, I put on The Police.
Guest:I got the greatest hit.
Guest:So, sorry, I can't put it on.
Guest:I was just like...
Marc:It didn't hold up for you.
Guest:It's the only band ever.
Guest:And I still know it's good.
Guest:The craftsmanship is good.
Guest:The city is good.
Guest:But it just, I don't know.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:People think I'm a moron.
Guest:I saw the police at the, I think it was not Santa Anita.
Guest:It was the Hollywood, the racetrack, the horse races.
Guest:recently or back in the day no back in the day man i was uh i was in high school and it yeah it was great i mean thompson twins opened up and i remember they had like a tea break in the middle of their show like an intermission right it was them having tea yeah and i thought that was pretty cool sting's sting's always been super cool to me and um obviously he's a a musician who tries different things he's into experimenting he's into expanding and
Marc:He's one of those guys where he's sort of like Bono, where the personality sort of starts to hinder the appreciation of the music after a certain... You don't have to say anything on that.
Marc:But I just like... It's just sort of interesting.
Marc:Like, with Sting, because I like the police, but at some point, I'm like, Sting just becomes Sting, and I can't separate him from...
Guest:For me, he's one of those guys who's a really good musician, without doubt.
Guest:He's a great musician and he's willing to try lots of different stuff.
Guest:It just, I don't cry or go to- You don't get moved.
Guest:I don't get moved.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I respect it, I just don't get moved.
Marc:Now, I got in trouble from some people in Canada for sort of dismissing Rush the other day.
Marc:I don't remember who I was.
Marc:I was talking to Albini.
Guest:You know Albini you know, he'll drag he'll drag you down to some places where you end up saying things that you might not tell you something Russia's like easiest band in the world to make fun of yeah that create you know Geddy Lee's voice and it's funny and the million drums in all the million does but they're so unique Yeah, and they're so rad and they're such good players and there's nothing else like them right and they're Russian like I loved rush like when I first started playing yeah base like I
Guest:I wanted the virtuoso stuff, so I liked, that's why I had Hemispheres, that album.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I'd listen to that and Hendrix, and then I got into punk rock and it all changed, but I don't know, I love Rush.
Guest:Well, that's interesting, because you guys had- I love Rush, too.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's on the record.
Marc:But you guys had so much in place technique-wise, and then, because I hear you talking about jazz with a certain love, and you obviously have love for it, too, and then you sort of get into punk rock or you get into thrash or whatever, and
Marc:But you never felt like you were abandoning some other thing that had more integrity?
Guest:No, no, because integrity is what you make of it.
Guest:I mean, the notes that you hit, how you play, how you perform, how you create, that to me is integrity.
Guest:It's like I feel like I've earned my stripes all these years.
Guest:I just turned 51.
Guest:Youngster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel blessed, you know.
Guest:I mean, I played with all my heroes.
Guest:It's amazing still.
Guest:So I don't know.
Guest:I don't really know how to answer that.
Guest:Well, let me ask you in a different way.
Guest:Would you like to make a jazz record?
Guest:I could make a jazz record right now.
Guest:You got some recording gear.
Guest:I could do it.
Guest:I'll try.
Guest:I mean, I don't know how good it's going to be, but I can swing.
Guest:Would you like to make a jazz record?
Guest:Yeah, hell yeah.
Guest:I've made jazz records.
Guest:But, or played on them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the thing for me, like in terms of that question, it was never about abandoning anything.
Guest:Like when I got into punk rock, it didn't mean, oh, I can't like Zeppelin now because it's not cool.
Guest:Or I can't listen to Louis Armstrong every day when I go home like I still do.
Guest:But the thing for me, it was just a huge lesson in it that really changed my life was that it wasn't about, up until that point, it was like I was really into virtuosity and musicianship.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And punk rock taught me that the emotional intent of
Guest:And the purity and the intent is where the integrity is.
Guest:It's not in the style or how athletic you are on your instrument.
Guest:I appreciate virtuosity, and that never left.
Guest:I still appreciate virtuosity, but I don't appreciate virtuosity for the sake of showing, to prove how fast you are.
Guest:Empty noodling.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I just like, like for me, like I would like the Germs are a really big band for me.
Guest:I listen to that record GI over and over and over and it like, it really affected me in a profound way where it, and I was like, you know, it's remedial music.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it, it, you know, no one else could do it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it's just one of those things.
Guest:It's like, you know, like a great painting like Basquiat or something where it's like, you know, a billion guys have copied them.
Guest:No one can make a painting.
Guest:It looks like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's just like childish scribbling.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, you know what I mean?
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:So, so,
Guest:That's out with music too.
Guest:I never stopped liking shit that I like.
Guest:Police is the only band.
Guest:And I still don't not like them.
Guest:I just don't want to put it on.
Guest:I used to put it on.
Guest:I'd pull over and be like, fuck.
Guest:Regatta de Blanc, that record, all that shit.
Guest:It really affected me.
Guest:I went to go see them play.
Guest:The form blew my mind.
Guest:Stuart Copeland's drums, I was sitting behind them.
Guest:And on a Tom's, it said, fuck off, you cunt.
Guest:Which he did for Sting, because he fucking hated Sting.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:you know and um really yeah and before there's the thing i really like was before this show they played the whole bob marley exodus album in the in the form really loud oh that's awesome that was rad well you know i think that's the amazing thing about rock music in general is that it's not about the whether the music is simple as what you bring to it feeling wise and you know how you communicate with it right exactly you know it's did you get to meet jocko
Guest:I had an encounter with them, actually.
Guest:There was a guitar show in Hollywood called the Los Angeles Guitar Show.
Guest:It was at the Merlin Hotel.
Guest:I believe that's now like a Holiday Inn Express or something.
Guest:And each room was a different guitar company or a cable company or an amp company.
Guest:And I was in this one room and I heard this really loud...
Guest:It was actually kind of annoying, like the bass was just turned way up and the walls were shaking.
Guest:It was kind of scary and the windows were rattling.
Guest:And I went in that room kind of pissed off and I look in there and it's Jocko and there's no one else.
Guest:There's one guy in the room, like a rep.
Guest:And he's sitting down and he's playing this bass and I was like, whoa.
Guest:He was like walking into a brick wall, just like, whoa, you know.
Guest:yeah this is heavy yeah i didn't say anything to him but i took a knee about 10 feet from him he's just like staring at me but i had this big smile and i was just so amazed and the room filled up i mean within like a minute it was packed you know and everybody was just in there and um and he started playing grooves and in quotes from his own stuff also quotes from jerry jamat and
Guest:James Jamerson, and he's looking at everybody right in the eyes.
Guest:He's not smiling.
Guest:He's looking at us and sizing us up, almost like, I can kick all of your asses right now, so don't even mess with me.
Guest:Because at that time, he was having a hard time, 1985.
Guest:But we were just so stoked to have him even size us up.
Guest:It was like, this is great.
Guest:And then his girlfriend at the time...
Guest:And she was beautiful.
Guest:She was like a kind of tall surfer gal.
Guest:And I never forget, she had like a pair of jean shorts on.
Guest:And she had like an OP hoodie on.
Guest:And she had two cans of beer in her pocket, one in each pocket.
Guest:And she said, Jocko, come on, let's go.
Guest:You know, just like that straight out.
Guest:And he got up, he put the bass down, and he left us all there hanging.
Guest:And we were super stoked.
Guest:She's like, quit fooling around.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Come on, let's go.
Guest:Fooling around playing bass.
Guest:Let's go drink some beer.
Guest:Let's go have a beer.
Guest:Yeah, let's go get high.
Guest:But it was crazy because I was so shy back then.
Guest:And now I'm like, man, I would have bought him a burger or something.
Guest:We would have gone out, gone to the beach, and gone surfing or something.
Guest:Well, you probably wouldn't have allowed it.
Guest:Yeah, right?
Guest:Maybe not.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:Well, you made this amazing movie.
Guest:And how long did it take to make it?
Guest:Nearly six years.
Guest:What was the hold-up?
Guest:Well, each year we get new treasures.
Guest:Like, Joanie came on board year four.
Guest:Jerry Jermott came on board year three and a half.
Guest:Paul Marchand, my director, he's a trooper.
Guest:I mean, he's been there for the six years, and honestly, at one point, I think he was losing his mind, and he needed a break, and Scorsese called him.
Guest:And he went and made a film with Scorsese, edited for him for six months in New York.
Guest:And that needed to happen.
Guest:That was the only time he left for an extended amount of time.
Guest:And he actually had been offered a lot of gigs with a lot of big directors.
Guest:And he just recently was doing, still kind of doing something with Morgan Neville, who did that film, 20 Feet from Stardom.
Guest:So he was a real soldier and a trooper.
Guest:And we had Stephen Kayak for a while who had done that film, Scott Walker, 30th Century Man.
Guest:And, you know, every person that's been involved in this project as a producer or whatever, line producer, or just helping us get there, you know, where we needed to go.
Guest:I got to commend him because...
Guest:Without these different people, these soldiers, I call them, we wouldn't be where we are now.
Guest:And it's been a long haul.
Guest:It's like I've gone to film school for six years.
Guest:I learned so much.
Guest:And I could not do this again like that.
Guest:I found myself in Central Florida at like four in the morning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:like with one of jaco's friends you know driving back from kind of melbourne florida down to fort lauderdale and and and i'm just and he's falling asleep at the wheel literally and i'm hitting him going wake up wake up i'm thinking i don't want to die in florida i'm like jeez i've got you know i got my two kids and my wife back home it's like what am i doing you know questioning everything but um you know battled through it
Guest:But again, I have to thank every one of those people.
Guest:Again, this guy Bob Bobbing, who really helped us with the early years, and he was really carrying the torch for Jocko early on when nobody cared and got a lot of magazine covers for Jocko and helped get him back on the map.
Guest:And I think things happen for a reason.
Guest:I inherited this.
Guest:When I first met Jocko's son in 1996,
Guest:You know, in Fort Lauderdale, I said, someday you got to make a film about your father.
Guest:You know, it needs to be done.
Guest:His influence is so broad and wide to so many different types of musicians, like Flea or Getty or, you know, who a lot of gospel players, funk players, R&B, punkers, rock, whatever.
Guest:And he said, yeah, yeah, we're going to do it, you know.
Guest:And over time, I get the occasional call.
Guest:And finally, I got involved in the project.
Guest:And then I really just decided I would finance it.
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:That's where we are.
Guest:Because to make a film like this of quality, you know, you got to just really dive in all the way.
Marc:And was the family always with you or was that a struggle?
Guest:You know, on and off.
Guest:I mean, there were times where I'm sure they hated us and there were times where they kind of loved us.
Guest:And now we're all cool.
Guest:We've always been cool.
Guest:But I don't blame them because along the way, you have a journey like this and you're going to come up with edits and cuts that people aren't going to like for whatever reason.
Guest:And at the time, you're kind of questioning why.
Guest:But then you realize what, like now I know why.
Guest:You know, I know why the film is great and what it took to get here.
Guest:And I look back to those times where I was like, well, man, what's going on?
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:I'm just trying to keep just trying to keep people happy and make sure I had my creative vision still intact.
Guest:Take care of my director, but take care of the family, too.
Marc:You know, so when's it going to release is going to release in theaters and.
Guest:So, yeah, we've done a number of film festivals and independent theatrical screenings around the U.S., but we are going to release VOD on December 1.
Guest:And on the 27th of November, we're actually going to release on DVD DVD.
Guest:So you go to your local record shop, whatever, you know, you'll find it there.
Guest:Even places like Guitar Center.
Guest:And then on November 22nd, we're doing the LA premiere at the Ace Theater in downtown Los Angeles.
Guest:And that's going to be a really amazing event because my dream was to screen this thing at the Ace Theater.
Guest:It's such a beautiful venue.
Guest:And to be able to do that was a dream come true.
Guest:And we're going to
Guest:I have some live music, Felix Pastorius, who's an amazing bass player.
Guest:I know you can vouch for that.
Guest:That's his son?
Guest:He's a badass.
Guest:He's a badass.
Guest:He's playing with his band from Brooklyn called Hipster Assassins.
Guest:And then I'll be playing a set of music with another incredible bass player, Armand Saboleko, and actually Brooks Wackerman, who's the younger drummer of Chad Wackerman.
Guest:And he's been with me a long time.
Guest:And maybe we're going to twist Flea's arm to get up and play a special song with us.
Marc:Will that take a lot of twisting?
Marc:No.
Guest:We tracked a special song called Come On, Come Over.
Guest:And it all sort of blossomed off of a jam that we had.
Guest:You and Flea?
Guest:At Flea's studio, yeah, with Armand.
Guest:And it's so great.
Guest:It's so funky.
Guest:Oh, that sounds like a blast.
Marc:Now, are you guys recording now?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:New Chili Peppers record?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:How's that going?
Marc:Great.
Marc:He's not allowed to talk.
Marc:Oh, he's not allowed to talk about it?
Marc:It's top secret?
Guest:I mean, they can't stop me, but we're recording yet.
Marc:Screw the label.
Guest:I'm just not going to talk about it.
Guest:I just feel like it's not appropriate.
Marc:You guys all getting along?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We love each other.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:And you guys do this Metallica recording?
Marc:Yes, we are.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:How's that going?
Marc:It's going great.
Marc:Great.
Guest:Hopefully you'll have an album next year.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking, fellas.
Marc:I'm excited about the movie, and congratulations on finishing it, and it was great when I saw it.
Marc:I'm sure I'm going to go in and watch the DVD again.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Well, thanks so much for having us.
Guest:I really appreciate it.
Marc:Yeah, good to meet you guys.
Guest:Nice to meet you, Mark.
Marc:Right on.
Thank you.
Marc:Fuck, man.
Marc:It's exciting.
Marc:It's exciting, man.
Marc:It's exciting to have, you know, modern rock royalty right here in the fucking garage.
Marc:And Trujillo, he brought me this little amp that is signed.
Marc:That's very nice of him.
Marc:Brought me this little Ampeg thing that's signed by him and Flea.
Marc:But I'm not going to play through it.
Marc:I'll play, though, man.
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives!