Episode 65 - Scott Aukerman
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What is going on?
Marc:It's Mark Maron.
Marc:I hope you're doing well on the show today.
Marc:Scott Ackerman.
Marc:Many may not know Scott Ackerman.
Marc:He was one of the writers for Mr. Show.
Marc:And he is also, I think, one of the cornerstones of the alternative comedy movement, if there is such a thing.
Marc:And we'll discuss that, I hope.
Marc:He's the producer of the Comedy Death Ray show at Upright Citizens Brigade Theater here.
Marc:He also does Comedy Death Ray radio.
Marc:But I never really talked to him.
Marc:And for a long time, of course, I thought that he didn't like me or he was kind of like snobby to me or didn't want to use me.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:But I decided it was an important conversation to have.
Marc:I'm exhausted.
Marc:Well, not completely exhausted, but I just got back from San Francisco, did a two-day run, dropped in for a couple of nights to do an event up there.
Marc:We all did a book thing.
Marc:I did a book thing for this book that I'm in.
Marc:It's called You're a Horrible Person, But I Like You.
Marc:It's The Believer Book of Advice from The Believer Magazine.
Marc:I was up there with Eugene Merman.
Marc:Larry Doyle, Daniel Handler, the Lemony Snicket guy.
Marc:And we did a panel.
Marc:It was all very literary, very exciting at a Jewish community center up there.
Marc:And I got to tell you.
Marc:I get a little weird around the literary crowd.
Marc:I can't help but think they're somehow looking down at me in the trenches that I crawl out of, the comedy trenches, the dark world of smoky nightclubs where people hang around and chuckle at the sad men.
Marc:But it was a good time, and it's always fun to hang out with huge...
Marc:I wanted to say thank you to all the what the fuckers that came out to that show, man.
Marc:I mean, what a great time.
Marc:Great to see you.
Marc:I had to sign books.
Marc:And it's always weird when you sign a book and it's a collection of things and there's 50 other people in it.
Marc:And they say you want to do a book signing.
Marc:So me and Huge and the Lemony Snicket guy and Larry are sitting there at a table.
Marc:And who had the longest line because of the what the fuckers?
Marc:That's right, me, Mark Maron.
Marc:Thank you for all the lovely gifts.
Marc:A woman came up and presented me with a box of chocolate.
Marc:for Hot Cocoa that she stole from Whole Foods as a tribute to the show and as a revolutionary action.
Marc:And I appreciated that.
Marc:And we'll just keep the name cool because I don't want to get anybody into trouble.
Marc:Someone made me some jam.
Marc:How do you like that?
Marc:So I'm going home on the plane with some homemade jam and some Hot Cocoa mix stolen from Whole Foods by a fan.
Marc:And I certainly love seeing you guys come out and I really appreciate it.
Marc:So what do I do?
Marc:I fly back from Oakland today
Marc:And and I immediately with Stosh, my housemate and future wife, I don't tell her I end up going to to In-N-Out Burger.
Marc:Why?
Marc:I don't fucking know.
Marc:Why does anyone do that to themselves?
Marc:I mean, there's this part of my brain that thinks this is the greatest thing ever, but I know exactly what's going to happen.
Marc:Because when you go to In-N-Out Burger, you have to get the double-double, you have to get the fries, and you usually have to get a milkshake.
Marc:So in my mind, I said, look, I'll do it, but I'm not going the full route.
Marc:I'm not getting the milkshake.
Marc:But I did get the animal-style fries, which are disgusting.
Marc:I don't even like Thousand Island dressing.
Marc:It doesn't even make sense.
Marc:I mean, put chili on there or something.
Marc:I know this is a small issue, folks.
Marc:But I ate that stuff knowing that it was tasting pretty good going in my mouth because it was In-N-Out Burger.
Marc:But literally within 30 seconds of throwing the garbage away off of the tray, I felt like I wanted to claw out of my body and die.
Marc:Maybe people don't have this experience.
Marc:I don't know why I had to eat it.
Marc:I knew that would happen.
Marc:It always happens.
Marc:So I decided that perhaps at In-N-Out Burger, what would be helpful to someone like me, it can be voluntary, you can ask for it, is that perhaps when you walk out, when you're done eating, there's a guy in an In-N-Out Burger outfit, you know, with his In-N-Out Burger hat, and he just goes, do you need one?
Marc:And I go, yes, I do.
Marc:And he just punches you in the mouth, just pops you right in the face.
Marc:That way, at least you can get in your car not thinking about how shitty you feel for eating the hamburger, but you can sit there and go, God damn, why do I come here?
Marc:Because I always let that guy hit me in the fucking mouth.
Marc:That's just an idea I had.
Marc:I don't know that it'll go over.
Marc:But the weird thing is, is that eventually you'll go back and you'll say, you know what?
Marc:Maybe this time I won't get the hit in the mouth after.
Marc:Maybe that'll be my in and out experience.
Marc:You know, usually I get the hit in the mouth, but I'm not going to get the smack in the mouth this time.
Marc:Another thing that I've been thinking about, and I don't think it's something I should be thinking about, and I don't know if you guys think about it, but I've had these moments where I literally am asking myself, you know, am I a good person?
Marc:No, really, am I a good person?
Marc:And then I started thinking, well, if you're a good person, do you think you'd really be asking yourself that question?
Marc:Don't good people know that they're good people?
Marc:I mean, if you have time to sort of ruminate and make a list in your head and say, am I a good person that maybe you're not a good person?
Marc:I'm not saying you're a bad person, but I mean, why would you question yourself?
Marc:And then there's another thing that people say about me sometimes that that I also have a problem with because it's along the same lines is that, oh, yeah, I know, Mark, he means well.
Marc:He means well.
Marc:Well, I mean, if it's that unclear.
Marc:Whether or not I'm a good person to myself or whether or not I mean well to other people.
Marc:I mean, why would I need the moral interpreter?
Marc:Why would I need the the person who is the moral translator?
Marc:Oh, don't mind him.
Marc:He means well.
Marc:And I think in our minds we do.
Marc:I mean, in my mind, I mean, you know, hell, I'm running a soup kitchen up there.
Marc:I'm building Habitat for Humanity houses wherever they're necessary.
Marc:Sometimes I'd take side trips to Darfur to feed kids, you know, and I'm doing a lot of stuff up in my head.
Marc:But, you know, usually I'm at In-N-Out Burger.
Marc:I'm just sitting at an Outburger, shoving my face.
Marc:Not usually, but that's what I do.
Marc:Did I take any actions that would determine, that would justify me as a good person?
Marc:Hold on a second.
Marc:Let me just help this guy in his wheelchair to his table.
Marc:You okay, Red?
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:I'll just be up here at the counter if you need anything.
Marc:If you want another roll, let me know.
Marc:What was I talking about?
Marc:In-N-Out Burger?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, there's that.
Marc:That's not a big deal.
Marc:But even when I'm walking down the street in San Francisco, I see homeless people, and then you sort of determine who you're going to give money to and why you're going to give money to them, as if when you deny one of them money that they know that you might have given someone money yesterday, like I already gave, but it doesn't really fucking matter to that person.
Marc:But somehow in your head, you justified it.
Marc:Do I hold the door open for people?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I do that.
Marc:I do a little of that.
Marc:You know, it's if I remember, do I say thank you?
Marc:I try to remember to say thank you.
Marc:You know, sometimes I'll go back and say thank you.
Marc:I have like a two minute rule on the thank you.
Marc:I just it's not that I'm trying to be it's not that I'm ungrateful.
Marc:But but I kind of am because I'm already on to the next thing.
Marc:It's not I don't think I have a bad heart, but I'm just always kind of like, you know, what's next?
Marc:What's next?
Marc:What's next?
Marc:Me, me, me.
Marc:Hang on a second.
Marc:This guy's a little trouble.
Marc:Now, what is it you can't eat again?
Marc:You can't eat.
Marc:What are you allergic to?
Marc:Just a peanut butter.
Marc:All right, well, there's jelly sandwiches, okay?
Marc:And take one for later, too, because I know you got nowhere to sleep tonight.
Marc:Sorry, what was I talking about?
Marc:Hold on one second.
Marc:Just take the hammer that's on the thing.
Marc:Yeah, you're almost done.
Marc:The roof looks great.
Marc:The people are going to be so happy.
Marc:They're going to be so happy that they have a place to live.
Marc:I'm so proud of all of us for doing this and that God gave us that opportunity.
Marc:Sorry, man.
Marc:There's a lot going on in my head.
Marc:A lot of good stuff.
Marc:A lot of good stuff going on in my head.
Marc:What was I talking about?
Marc:Oh, I remember.
Marc:Giving homeless people money.
Marc:But that's not the issue.
Marc:Just common courtesy.
Marc:I've talked about this before.
Marc:I give myself like a two or three minute rule on that.
Marc:Sometimes it takes me a little time.
Marc:Like I'll walk away from a place after and walk back in to say thank you.
Marc:But what about bigger things?
Marc:You know, what about giving blood?
Marc:I don't give blood.
Marc:Why don't I give blood?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I should give blood.
Marc:I mean, that's a good thing to do.
Marc:It's harmless.
Marc:You get a cookie afterwards.
Marc:Why don't I do some of that?
Marc:Why don't I spread some more money around?
Marc:I mean, the Greenpeace people, they come up to me.
Marc:You know, they've got a real racket going, those Greenpeace people.
Marc:If you're in a big city, like New York especially, they hire some of the hottest girls to come up with the Green Street people.
Marc:It's like, do you care about the whales?
Marc:Whatever you want.
Marc:I care about it very much right now.
Marc:And what's your name?
Marc:What's your name tag say?
Marc:I already give to Greenpeace.
Marc:I say that even though I stopped giving to them.
Marc:Does that make me a bad person?
Marc:Does it?
Marc:Does it?
Marc:Hold on a minute.
Marc:This is your new house.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I want to cry too.
Marc:Yeah, no, look around.
Marc:It's yours.
Marc:Yeah, we built it for you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, it's yours.
Marc:So I quit giving to Greenpeace a while ago, but I still say that I do.
Marc:I got to write some stuff down.
Marc:I got to do some better things.
Marc:I've got to get out of my head and get into the world and feed people.
Marc:Do you know what I'm saying?
Marc:I had one of those moments in San Francisco.
Marc:I got up early because I needed to go down to the ferry building where they have the food mall, the very high-end food mall, and try to pick up some stuff at Bocalone.
Marc:What is it called?
Marc:Bocalone.
Marc:which I like.
Marc:I had to get some cured pig jowls, some guanciale to make a heart attack inducing dish that I enjoy making and a couple of salamis for Stash.
Marc:And
Marc:I had one of those early morning moments.
Marc:It's a very odd thing about San Francisco.
Marc:As much as I've been there, I don't know what's going on there.
Marc:And there are some devastatingly dangerous-looking people that lurk around.
Marc:There's some real desperation on the streets up there.
Marc:And I'm walking down the street, and I had that moment where I saw some dude with a hoodie on, but it wasn't on his head.
Marc:Literally, it was almost a block away.
Marc:I saw this guy, and I felt something menacing and troubled and something...
Marc:Something bad.
Marc:And I kept walking and I crossed the line to where I crossed the line.
Marc:I passed the line at which I could have, you know, sort of casually shuffled across the street like I had to go across the street and not make it seem like I was running away from whatever I thought he was going to do to me.
Marc:So I crossed that line.
Marc:So I'm like, well, dude, you're locked in.
Marc:You're just going to have to face the fire.
Marc:And I literally had this going on in my head.
Marc:Like, you know, like my life was at stake as if I was entering into war.
Marc:I decided that there's a real good chance in the next minute or so that this guy is going to stab me and take my money.
Marc:that's what's going on in my head that I'm going to be stabbed.
Marc:My money's going to be taken and no one's going to be here.
Marc:It's going to take a long time for the cops to come.
Marc:I don't even know who will call them.
Marc:That'll probably take five minutes for someone to get their shit together.
Marc:Someone to put maybe a jacket under my head while, while someone else goes, somebody call an ambulance, somebody call an ambulance.
Marc:This man's bleeding.
Marc:And then the ambulance could take 10 minutes.
Marc:So like I'm looking at 15 to 20 minutes, uh,
Marc:uh with a knife wound bleeding on the street before anything uh is really done and in the chances of me living through that depending on where i take it uh it's low and all that's going through my mind as i'm just walking through this you know by this guy so that is what i loaded the cartridge of my head up with that that is the ammunition in my brain as i walk past this guy and i look into his eyes and he looks into my eyes and nothing happens
Marc:But I did assess the situation rather quickly.
Marc:I think that because he saw, I knew that he was about to stab me and take my money and that I would have trouble getting an ambulance.
Marc:He chose not to.
Marc:I mean, I'd like to believe that.
Marc:But I also knew from the look in his eyes that he was desperate for something and he'd been up a really long time.
Marc:And it was sort of scary.
Marc:And then I realized he was standing right next to an ATM.
Marc:And there was a woman using the ATM and it wasn't there wasn't that many people on the street.
Marc:So despite the fact that what I was thinking might have been fantasy, I did linger there just a little bit, just past the ATM and look back at him to make sure he knew that there was a witness to whatever he was thinking about doing in that moment when that woman was getting her money out, which could have been really a possibility.
Marc:So I guess on some level that makes me a good person.
Marc:But again, not a lot of difference in terms of reality and whatever I'm inventing.
Marc:Do you know what I'm saying?
Marc:Hold on a second.
Marc:Hello, kids.
Marc:Hello, kids.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:Who's hungry?
Marc:Who's hungry?
Marc:Come on, gather around.
Marc:Who's hungry?
Marc:Yeah, it's nice to see you again.
Marc:Is that what she's saying?
Marc:I can't understand the language.
Marc:Yes, hello.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:Not much different than that, really.
Marc:But again, I am helping people.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Oh, that's good, Scott.
Marc:I...
Marc:I'm now I'm in the garage here at the cat ranch with Scott Ackerman.
Marc:And if you don't know Scott Ackerman, he was, uh, well, well, that's something I want to talk about.
Marc:Not the reason why people don't know you, but I see you as one of the defining influences of what people call alternative comedy.
Marc:And, and well, I've gotten emails about that.
Marc:You know, there's some people, cause I don't just go out to comedy nerds.
Marc:I have a lot of, uh, people that know nothing about the people I talk to, even if you would think they would.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And there's this question of, you know, what is alternative comedy?
Marc:What is mainstream comedy?
Marc:But I think that, you know, you're you come from a writing background.
Marc:You wrote for Mr. Show.
Marc:Is that your first writing job?
Guest:It was my first job.
Guest:Yeah, my first professional job.
Guest:And you were doing stand up before that?
Guest:I was doing a team act.
Guest:I've never really been great at stand-up, as my shows at South by Southwest this year proved.
Marc:I didn't go this time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I literally was like, I was going to go, but then I was like, can you get me a room and maybe pay me and fly me out?
Marc:And they're like, I'll work on it.
Marc:And then I got paid work.
Marc:I was like, fuck it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:What happened out there?
Guest:Oh, I did okay.
Guest:Like I did really well.
Guest:We did some comedy death rate radio shows and those were great because people already knew who I was.
Guest:But something in my act is not telling people how my mind works because I just get like kind of blank stares for a lot of my jokes.
Guest:If you know me already, people laugh.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I don't.
Guest:have a way to tell strangers who I am, I guess, in my act, because I just kind of come out and do my stuff and no one seems to get it.
Marc:Yeah, you don't define yourself through your first few jokes because you don't have a history of doing road work.
Guest:i'm a white guy yeah and i have have you tried one of those my dad was this and my mom was that so i guess i'm i have nothing interesting about there's nothing interesting about my background i am not freakishly fat i'm not freakishly short or tall i'm just kind of an average guy and i hear some jokes
Marc:But you've been part of the comedy scene in L.A., certainly the provocative comedy scene in L.A.
Marc:now for Christ.
Marc:I mean, it must be.
Marc:I'm trying to think the first time I met you.
Marc:We'll talk about CDR.
Marc:He mentioned CDR.
Marc:That's Comedy Death Ray.
Marc:He does a radio show that is now also a podcast, and many of the people that listen to this listen to as well.
Marc:He's in the world that I am in.
Marc:The world.
Marc:We had Bob Odenkirk in there, and he was, I guess, your boss.
Marc:He was my first boss.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm telling you, from talking to him, having him as a boss is not something I envy.
Marc:And that's from talking to him.
Marc:He was great.
Marc:OK, that was very diplomatic.
Guest:No, I have to say that I owe so much my career to both him and David.
Guest:I mean, and he is a genius.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I don't mean to say he is a genius like David Cross isn't a genius.
Guest:Well, you know, David Cross is a more rougher genius.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, I mean, to get real, like Bob was a little more of our boss.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I think that would happen if you were just in a conversation with Bob.
Marc:All of a sudden you're filling out a W9.
Marc:Yeah, that was my experience, is that by the end of the talk I had with Bob, perhaps I was working for him, but not as somebody in the creative field.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, but I mean, in any partnership, one person is usually the boss, so I think Bob was a little more of the boss boss to us, and David was more of a collaborator, in a sense.
Guest:Was David the kind of guy that says, hey, you guys, I know Bob's freaking out a little bit, but you're doing a really good job.
Guest:Um, no, David was light with the praise, but he's a cranky bastard.
Marc:He's a cranky bastard.
Marc:I've known him for so long and I'm amazed at how cranky he continues to be.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He's great, though.
Guest:I mean, we have a really nice relationship now where we do stuff together.
Guest:And it's really, you know, it was funny because I think the week after we stopped doing the show.
Guest:David and I went out for a drink, and we had a really deep talk, and he's like, why didn't we do this a year ago?
Guest:Because there was always this kind of like... Workplace.
Guest:Yeah, you know what I mean?
Marc:Well, you guys did a great thing, and certainly it survives, and it is the, as I've said before, it's where some people's history of comedy begins.
Marc:Certainly the kids that... Can I call them kids?
Marc:I can.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:The people that listen that are involved with... You can call 40-year-old people kids.
Marc:That's very funny, Scott.
Marc:I'll take that hit and I'll absorb it.
Marc:You bastard.
Marc:You bastard!
Marc:No, but I mean, there's a generation of comedic fans that grew up on sketch comedy, whereas I grew up on stand-up.
Marc:And my only desire was like, I'm going to be a stand-up.
Marc:I'm going to be a singular guy.
Marc:I'm going to go up there.
Marc:I'm going to do the job of comedian.
Marc:I'm going to have my point of view.
Marc:I'm going to be a...
Marc:Whatever the fuck I was going to be, it was going to be stand-up.
Marc:Why?
Marc:What did you watch growing up?
Marc:Was it just like stand-up tapes?
Marc:Well, I did watch Saturday Night Live the first season when I was a kid.
Marc:I stayed up late for it.
Marc:I guess that was 76.
Marc:I was 13 or 14 years old.
Marc:But I was always geared towards Richard Pryor, Woody Allen.
Marc:My brother and I used to listen to comedy records when I'd see comedians on TV.
Guest:So comedy records.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But I mean, I understood sketch, but I never saw it as something I wanted to do or that resonated.
Marc:But I'm finding that, and maybe you'll find the same thing, that what I'm seeing now in terms of the landscape of people in comedy, the young people that are involved in it, they're much more well-adjusted than the world of fucking stand-ups.
Marc:I mean, stand-ups are a bunch of gypsy freaks that are on the run from something.
Marc:Whereas I see, like, if you go to UCB or you work with... When you say gypsies, do you mean Romanians?
Marc:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:I don't mean to use that inappropriately.
Marc:They're...
Marc:I don't know if you've seen the Romanian comedy circuit.
Marc:They call it the gypsy circuit.
Marc:But no, there seems to be people that are able to work with each other that are supportive.
Marc:I mean, shit, I never had that.
Guest:Yeah, I think the improv, you're probably right.
Guest:The improv slash sketch is more of an influence now.
Guest:I mean, just with the UCB theater, it's more people watching improv shows is how people get interested in comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which never when I started.
Guest:Like, if you watched an improv show, they usually were horrible.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, they still can be pretty bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Non-UCB improv shows are the worst.
Marc:I saw one at the Comedy Store last night.
Marc:I walked into the main room.
Marc:I don't know who had rented the place, but it was one of those situations where they were all standing in a line applauding what everyone else says.
Marc:And all I could think of is a firing squad.
Marc:Of you trying to organize one.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:But the first time I met you, I think, and I had the same story with Doug Benson.
Marc:I don't recall, but I know it was a house in a valley and you were driving a bike into a swimming pool.
Guest:Ah, Brian's house.
Guest:Brian and Dave Rath's house.
Guest:Brian Pussain and Dave Rath used to own a house in the valley.
Guest:Do you remember?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, very well.
Guest:That was on my resume as one of my special skills, riding a bike into a pool.
Yeah.
Guest:You know how you always have to put something on your resume to make people laugh and get them talking to you?
Guest:Did you really put it on there?
Guest:Yeah, it was on there, yeah.
Guest:Brian Pulsane had SAG after WGA Metallica fan club on it.
Guest:So yeah, we used to, he had this great house in the valley where we would have party after party and all the new years between probably 1995 to 2002 I spent there.
Guest:and he had this big pool, and we found this shitty bike, and for a whole summer just rode it into a pool.
Guest:Yeah, I remember that.
Guest:For as long as we could until it rusted over and we couldn't ride it anymore.
Guest:And then one of our friends, Tal John, John Schrader, writer for the Sarah Silverman program, started riding it off the roof into the pool.
Guest:I think I kind of remember that.
Guest:That is fucking insane.
Guest:You didn't do that?
Guest:No, I thought about that the other... Like, riding it into a pool is bad enough because you're basically like... You're trying to get enough air that you...
Guest:just land in the pool and sink.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because the first few times you did it, you just kind of fell off the edge of the pool and that stops all your momentum for the bike and you're thrown forward.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So basically what you're trying to do, we built a little ramp, is just get enough air so that you go up in the air and then boosh, down to the bottom.
Guest:Right into the pool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he was driving off the roof.
Guest:Yeah, he was going off the roof.
Marc:Now, okay, so that's interesting.
Marc:As a writer, is he way out there?
Yeah.
Guest:As a writer, no, he's just kind of a... Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, he writes just kind of stupid shit.
Marc:Because you'd think that someone's willing to take those kind of risks.
Guest:No, he's just a dummy.
Guest:He's just like an idiot.
Marc:Okay, so he's not a smart guy who drives a... No, no, no.
Marc:Not a guy that's like, I'm just going to push it.
Guest:I remember, yeah.
Guest:In fact, I sort of, I don't feel like it was the first time I met you, but I remember a pool party where we had a conversation, because I remember the conversation.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Do I owe you an apology?
Guest:No, you don't owe me an apology.
Guest:It was just one of those conversations where I was like, fucking Mark Merritt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:I love hearing about me.
Guest:The movie in The Company of Men had just come out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you were talking about how genius it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was talking about why I didn't like it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, just a conversation about movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it ended with you saying, yeah, some people just don't get it and walking away.
Yeah.
Guest:Captain Condescending strikes again.
Marc:Mr. Dismissive.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Well, I don't think I owe you an apology for that.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:It was just... I tell you, different points during our relationship, and I've known you a long time, I've gone in and out with sort of like, you know, what the fuck is Scott Aukerman thinking?
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Marc:And then one time... Yeah, because you get those emails.
Marc:It's like, hey, look, if you don't like me enough to put me on CDR, just tell me.
Marc:Did I ever write you one of those?
Guest:I don't think I did, actually.
Guest:No, we had a...
Guest:Comedy Death Ray is the live show I do on Tuesdays at UCB.
Guest:Very popular.
Marc:We're going to get into how that defined alternative comedy.
Guest:At one point, I know we had to have a conversation because... I'd go long.
Guest:Because you'd go long, yeah.
Guest:There were a few times where I would say you have 20 minutes and you do 30.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the last time you were on...
Guest:I lit you at 20 and you actively scowled at me and shook your head.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And waved off the light.
Guest:Yeah, and did.
Guest:And did 40 to 45.
Marc:I felt bad about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I didn't know if I was going to be punished, but you didn't really punish me.
Guest:I didn't punish you in the sense of I just wasn't like going after you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, like some comics I'll go after and say, hey, when can you do the show?
Guest:I was just like, I'm going to take a Martin Maron break for a second.
Guest:To be honest, I'm so behind in booking the show that it's like a couple of days before the show.
Guest:I'm like, fuck.
Guest:Fuck who's on this week.
Marc:Well, that's the interesting thing about that audience.
Marc:I don't really know where I stand in the comedy world sometimes because I seem to be in between places.
Marc:I wouldn't be defined as an alternative comic, and I'm certainly not a mainstream comic.
Marc:I'm this thing that seems to provide some sort of raw honesty to the alternative world.
Marc:I don't know a lot of people that are like me in it, but I seem to have respect there.
Guest:I don't think...
Guest:Personally, I don't think alternative comedy is a style.
Guest:I think it's – I've always said this.
Guest:It's a community.
Guest:No, it's a location.
Guest:I think alternative comedy is only comedy done in alternative venues, meaning not comedy clubs.
Guest:That's the only – I don't think there's – anyone shares any kind of –
Marc:sense of I don't know you know because I tried to I think I think we should have a not a debate about that but a conversation because you know I was given some sort of credit for starting alternative comedy at Luna in New York and I think that out here the way it started was with Dana Gould and Janine
Marc:Janine Kathy Griffin, I think, was part of that.
Marc:And they started doing that before Largo at, I think... At Luna Park.
Marc:Yeah, at Luna Park.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Beth Lepidus.
Marc:I guess we have to throw her a bone.
Guest:Why not?
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:But so there was that going on.
Marc:So these were not traditional comic venues, but most of the people that were working in these venues were...
Marc:comics that came up in comedy clubs.
Guest:They were comics that were... And that style actually was a little different.
Guest:People who started those alternative comedy things did have sort of what your style is, which is very confessional, talking with the audience, not at the audience.
Guest:That's a big part of alternative comedy, too.
Guest:That's the heart of it, I think.
Guest:People want to have a discussion and be engaged.
Guest:They don't want to see an act.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, that's still a hard sell on the road.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They a lot of times say, why is he need us to help him?
Guest:Right.
Guest:But some acts actually do really well in alternative comedy.
Guest:And that's just because that's amazing to me.
Marc:I love when that happens.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I used to see it at Luna, too, where where you'd get all these kids with their with their.
Marc:I'm not going to be condescending, but there is a fashion to it.
Marc:It's very white.
Marc:It's it's very hip in the sense of like, you know, they are a community of people that like roughly the same things.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, anime, Dungeons and Dragons, maybe.
Guest:For a while, like, MySpace jokes were really big when MySpace first came out, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's like, and a lot of it is the audience sits there and goes, oh, my God, you know, that's stuff I like.
Guest:That's stuff that's really important.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But what was always interesting to me that given all this attitude and this posturing, which is, you know, what defines a community doesn't matter what the community is, and I'm not condescending it, that you get an old road warrior in there that just did his road jokes and they'd kill.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Marc:But the snobbery wasn't there because they didn't really have a sense of what they were condescending to.
Guest:Yeah, the only time I've ever seen a road warrior not do well, it's simply because they seem like they're doing a routine.
Guest:Autopilot.
Guest:Yeah, autopilot routine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because acts do really well, you know, it's I would hate to, you know, some people slam alternative comedy because they're like, you don't write any jokes.
Guest:You just like talk off the top of your head.
Guest:And that's not true.
Guest:That's not what it's been like for years and years.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Uncabaret maybe started with that, you know, but that's not what alternative comedy.
Marc:No, I think what it's become now is sort of an ironic sort of detached, very confident young people's form that is very joke centric.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It's so joke-centric that sometimes I have a hard time deciphering the personality of the person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's, I mean, it fluctuates, though, because I would say, like, around the time when I started, when we started, BJ Porter and I started Comedy Death Ray, back in 2002, there were...
Guest:there were a lot of new comedians who were very joke-oriented coming up.
Guest:You're B.J.
Guest:Novak, Stan Mintz, Morgan Murphy.
Guest:They were very into one-liners and jokes, and Anthony Jeselnik not revealing any part of their personality, you know what I mean?
Guest:And it's just cyclical, because now I would much rather hear the people like you or Dana Gould, people who are talking about stuff that's important to you.
Marc:Yeah, a little risk.
Marc:There's not a lot of risk.
Marc:But Jeselnik, in particular,
Marc:was a shock-driven joke writer.
Marc:And what's interesting about where this goes is that the reason alternative comedy is not really what it is anymore is that there have been some mainstream successes that as a community creates itself and it starts percolating, that eventually that becomes to define the mainstream.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the way the internet works and the way comedy is now, many of these acts, like Aziz or Zack, are huge stars.
Guest:They're huge now, yeah.
Guest:And I remember when I first started, and Kathy Griffin got on Suddenly Susan, and my old agent was saying, wow, this is like...
Guest:Someone getting famous without ever having to do Mr. Show or something like someone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like it's like Bob and David.
Guest:They, you know, did their act.
Guest:Then they had a cult show.
Guest:And then, you know, they tried to have a career.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and it seemed like Kathy was just plucked from, you know, you know, doing alternative comedy just to become famous all of a sudden within a year.
Guest:And it was just.
Guest:But that's how it seems now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Is people are plucked from doing a show at UCB or something.
Guest:And, you know, within a year of starting stand up, they can have something big somehow.
Marc:Well, the business is always hungry for young people, and it seems a lot of young people are gravitating towards sketch and towards UCB and towards alternative comedy.
Marc:There's never been more people calling themselves comics than I've ever fucking seen.
Guest:Booking a show, it's insane.
Guest:I mean, it seems like there are thousands of comedians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because every one of them somehow gets my email address.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And... That's the downfall of alternative comedy because if what you say is true and that it is really defined by people performing in alternative venues, that means anybody who does a show, a comic book show, that brings their friends to sit in that room two or three times a month can call themselves a comic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which I'm not completely comfortable with.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because you can't just call yourself a doctor...
Marc:Just because you went to watch an operation.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or you held the knife.
Guest:Or even the game operation.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah, I would always say that about actors.
Guest:Anyone can call themselves an actor.
Guest:But do you find... Yeah, sure.
Marc:Do you find, though, that... I guess...
Marc:The question I have to ask is that there was a time where people would get into comedy to do the job of comic.
Marc:It seems now that a lot of people get in and they got about 10 to 15 working minutes.
Marc:It's not really on their mind to work as a comic as much as it is to get a job as a writer or be part of a show or get part of a group.
Guest:I get sick of it.
Guest:I honestly do.
Guest:I've booked less and less people who are of that mindset.
Guest:The 10-minute people?
Guest:The 10-minute people.
Guest:10-minute wonders?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Because sometimes they have a great 10 minutes and I put them up.
Guest:And then I'll be like, whoa, that 10 minutes is so awesome.
Guest:Let's have you back in two months or three months, which is a short period of time for my show because, like I say, there are thousands of people out there seemingly.
Guest:And then they come back and they do the exact same 10 minutes.
Guest:And then I'll be like, okay, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's their best 10 minutes.
Guest:And then you invite them back and it's the same 10 minutes.
Guest:And it's like, oh, wow, you're not interested in this as an art form.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You just want to get somewhere.
Marc:Well, that's what people don't realize.
Marc:And one of the things that even people who are doing it out there in the middle of the country is that, and I'll tell this to you now, and this is the secret gift I'm giving you.
Marc:If you are a stand-up out there in the Midwest or wherever you are, if you're not in L.A.
Marc:and you're not in New York, the one thing I can tell you is that being somebody who's got 15 minutes of material and no one knows who you are,
Marc:is an incredible power because you're only going to have that once and you will be seen.
Marc:The thing about comedians is that despite however bad they are or whoever they are, if they've never been seen by industry, if you show up here as a comic, with your shit together, they will come see you and you have a shot.
Marc:But you only have that one once.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because if you fuck it up and they go, yeah, he's all right.
Guest:And then you never work on it again.
Marc:Or you just sit here and flounder like so many other people in Los Angeles.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:you got that shot once because people always ask me should i come to la i'm like don't come until you have an act that's at least 20 minutes long and it's fucking primed bulletproof yeah because the one thing that comics can do that no one else can is anywhere come see me you'll and you'll get it actors can't do that yeah
Guest:Yeah, no, that's good advice.
Guest:I mean, yeah, I just it's hard.
Guest:It's hard because I would rather see someone who's a funny person who gets up there and maybe has an act.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you could see him sort of forming like, yeah, like that's what the point of Jezelnik was that, you know, when I saw him the first time, it was like, all right, I've seen this type of thing before in the sense that these are well-crafted jokes and they're designed to to push moral boundaries and be sort of shocking.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Drake Sather used to do that way.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He has.
Guest:He's developed that persona to link the jokes together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's almost like two separate tricks he's doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like his one trick of his joke formulas, and I don't mean to say that his act is all a trick or anything like that.
Marc:No, it's just that when you write jokes, there is a way to write jokes, and he's writing jokes, but they're very clever, and they're unique, and they're dark.
Marc:but you can kind of get the hang of it.
Marc:But once he built the persona around it, then all of a sudden it's the package.
Marc:That's the evolution you're talking about.
Marc:You see a lot of people that are just doing some version of Attell or some version of Sarah, if they're a woman, and you can tell who their influences are, and you don't see their personality, and you can tell their joke structure.
Marc:And either they're going to stay there, or they're going to take that next step.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to, because when we did the...
Guest:comedy death ray thing you know uh bj novak and morgan murphy there's two examples of people who when they first started i don't know if you were around when they were first starting or if you were in new york but they were very much like that too just like one-liner jokes you know what i mean and now it's so great to see them you know bj's act has and he doesn't get a chance to do it as novak yeah he doesn't get a chance to do it as much because he's you know on the office but when you see him now he's just more into almost like storytelling in a way
Marc:Well, I think that's about time because he always annoyed me early on because he he obviously had a craft in place to write jokes, but I couldn't figure out who the fuck he was.
Marc:I remember doing a set of the improv and I just talked about the shit I talk about and I killed for like 10 minutes and I walked off and he looks at me and goes, how'd you do that?
Marc:So the fact that he is ambitious enough and likes to form enough to.
Guest:Yes, he is.
Guest:And he's taking that chance.
Guest:And he was telling me recently that he can't go back to that old way anymore.
Guest:Good.
Guest:It's like Paul F. Tompkins.
Guest:He told me a story about how he had his act in Philadelphia and he was deathly afraid of speaking to the audience.
Guest:And the minute he did, he didn't want to do anything else.
Guest:And you'll go see him now, and his first 10 minutes are just talking to the audience.
Marc:Yeah, it's nice to feel comfortable being open, but sometimes you'll run into that audience that'll bring you right back to where you started.
Marc:But you have CDR, the Comedy Death Ray, is on every Tuesday at the UCB Theater here in Los Angeles at 830.
Guest:We're in our seven and a half years it's been going.
Marc:And CDR Radio, which is available as a podcast and is on the air in Los Angeles on what channel, 105?
Marc:Indie 103.1.
Marc:one oh three one now what i wanted to ask you is that we began talking briefly on the break about international comedy and uh and also uh what what i want to talk about where at comedy death ray where you've had the sort of clash of the youth alternative movement with the old timey comics who i guess i'm one of have there ever been moments where it was just a disaster
Guest:where people are like, who is this old dude and why is he talking to me?
Guest:To some degree.
Marc:I mean, that happens to me a little bit, and eventually I shock them into enjoying it.
Guest:You know, it's always very...
Guest:It's very satisfying to sort of instruct people of who is funny.
Guest:Sometimes I feel like that's what our job is, is to say, hey, people, you've never heard of... Like Todd Glass will tell you that he didn't have a big toehold in the alternative comedy scene before he started doing comedy death ray.
Guest:Or Kindler.
Guest:Kindler had a bigger one, honestly.
Guest:Todd Glass wasn't really allowed to do Largo.
Marc:Why, because he was seen as old school?
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:He's talked to I don't want to put words in his mouth.
Guest:But at one point for a video he made for one of our anniversary shows, he went on a big rant about like, you know, if someone tells you someone's funny, put him up, you know, like he has something against.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, a lot of it for us is like, hey, these these are this is someone that I really like.
Guest:And.
Guest:you know, we think you should like them.
Guest:And that's how I've always viewed the show is like, I don't care how old someone is.
Guest:I don't care how new someone is.
Guest:If I like them, I just want to put them up.
Guest:You know what happens?
Guest:And it's, for the most part, it's gone really well.
Guest:Like the times it doesn't go well is when, you know, like I remember we put improv up once.
Guest:That was really, and someone did 20 minutes of improv to start the show.
Guest:That was bad.
Guest:But no, actually it's always been really well.
Guest:Sometimes you'll take a chance on something and you don't know how it's gonna go over.
Guest:And I don't wanna name any names, but some of the foreign comics that we've had have not gone over.
Marc:I haven't known any to get any real traction here in a big way if they don't have it there already.
Marc:And even if they do have it there, it doesn't always work.
Guest:Usually I'll put up someone who's famous from another country just because it's like the curiosity factor.
Guest:And I'll give you an example.
Guest:Russell Brand did the show two weeks ago.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Did people know who he was?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's very famous.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And so... I've never seen his act.
Guest:I had not either.
Guest:And so for me, it's curiosity factor of like, well, I'd like to see that.
Guest:So that's why I put it on.
Guest:Not like, hey, I endorsed this.
Guest:This is great.
Marc:But didn't he have a big... Didn't they run him up the flagpole at the Roxy and tried to get him?
Marc:Like, I don't sense other than movies that he has a huge following here.
Guest:I don't believe he has a huge stand-up following.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But he's the host of the MTV Awards two years in a row.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, people know who he is.
Guest:I don't know that they know his act.
Guest:How do you do?
Guest:He did really well.
Guest:I was very... And that's the only reason I'm actually naming him is he actually surprised me because I had low expectations, not because I don't think he's funny, but because... The crossover.
Guest:You don't know if it's going to happen.
Guest:You don't know if it's good or not.
Guest:So I always come in with low expectations of like, well, let's see how this is, and I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Guest:And I was.
Guest:And it was great, and the audience was really into it.
Guest:Because I've had other people...
Marc:of his stature do the show and it just doesn't no one can you know no one's really into what they're talking about but he he was genuinely engaging people on interesting but there are some people that love fucking british people i mean and i'm not saying that in a derogatory way but i mean there are some americans that like anything british could come out and they will just go shit crazy
Guest:But it seems like everyone in Britain goes shit crazy for anything in Britain.
Marc:Britain is the size of Texas.
Marc:What do you think is going to happen?
Marc:It's a much more intimate situation.
Guest:But that's how I always feel.
Guest:I mean, you know, bands who come out of Britain, you know, they'll play one gig.
Guest:You know, Oasis played like one gig at a place like that probably had 100 people.
Guest:And all of a sudden they were famous.
Marc:Well, that's the way I think England works.
Marc:And I'm excited to be going there at the end of.
Marc:Are you really turning this into a plug?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I'm just saying that because of that, Britain is a sophisticated, multilayered, historically dense culture.
Marc:And because of the intimacy of other countries, when people talk about what's America like, how the fuck do you even answer that question?
Guest:Yeah, because there's a million Americans.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what it's like.
Marc:I may be overstating that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:there's about three yeah there's probably more there's somewhere between three and a million but i'll go out in the middle of the country and i don't know where the fuck i am other than you know this this idea i came to highland park and i don't know where the fuck i am welcome welcome sure if you go down to york you're in mexico if you go up to colorado you're uh you're somewhere else you're kind of in the in-between part where just like a block away everyone has iron bars on their windows yes
Marc:And then just over the hill, Al Madrigal lives in a very pleasant house.
Guest:Oh, I love Al.
Marc:Yeah, he's my neighbor.
Marc:He's very funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's my neighbor.
Marc:But no, because of the intimacy of the press, the intimacy of television, they're not completely inundated in the sense of Americanization because they have their own industries in place.
Marc:And it's a small place.
Marc:So everybody sees it.
Marc:If you're written about in the paper there, people are like, holy shit, I got to see this.
Marc:If you're written about in the paper here, people are like, where do you get papers?
Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's just, it's a different game.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but I also, but it makes me wonder, like, it almost seems like if you try hard in England, you'll be successful.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Because it seems like everyone coming out of England who's famous doesn't seem to be any good a lot of times.
Marc:Well, I don't know if that's true.
Marc:I think that you have to pass their test.
Marc:They're very hard on Americans, certainly.
Marc:And if you're going to go perform for them, like even in Scotland, when I was there, it's like, you know, it's like a double obstacle to cross.
Marc:But I think that there's no denying popularity.
Marc:I mean, if people keep coming back, whether we like them or not, people like them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And we may not know those people and they may not be us, but that's just the way the game works.
Guest:By the way, I want to say I'm not talking about certain people from England I've had on several times who I really like, like Matt Kirshen or Spencer Brown or whatever.
Guest:I don't know him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Matt Kirshen was on Last Comic Standing one season, whatever that means to anyone.
Marc:I don't see a lot of it.
Marc:And as I get older, as opposed to dismissing people entirely who have obviously put time into their career and created something, I'll try to assess...
Marc:Not necessarily the good part of it, but, like, personally, I never got Eddie Izzard, but I see the craft.
Marc:I mean, I know why he's good.
Marc:I know why people like him.
Marc:He has a style.
Marc:Jimmy Carr, I think, is a great joke writer, and on a technique level, I don't think there's many people better than him.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:i'm not familiar well just in terms of like he's a guy that'll do like you know a hundred jokes you know in in in a half hour oh i think i know they're well crafted they have a sort of sardonic point of view he's incredibly meticulous in how he presents them there's nothing out of place it's not the way i do comedy but certainly i can fucking appreciate that craft glenn wool who just moved here oh yeah i love glenn yeah have
Guest:Yeah, many times.
Guest:But he's not technically English.
Marc:No, but he built his career in Britain, and he's very abstract.
Marc:I think that most modern sketch is going to come from Monty Python.
Guest:Yeah, no, and I agree.
Guest:They seem to respond very well to abstract people, like abstract acts.
Guest:They, as a country, take more chances on stuff.
Guest:They're open to people doing something different.
Marc:A broader history of appreciating the absurd.
Marc:I just think they just have a lengthier, long time of it.
Marc:The absurd here.
Marc:What was it?
Marc:Milton Berle dressing as a woman at the birth of television?
Guest:You're going to make me crack up if you even just describe it.
Marc:But I mean, that's what you're dealing with.
Marc:You're dealing with like a genuine history of civilization in Britain.
Marc:Here were a bunch of fucking cocky kids.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But in terms of...
Marc:just embracing absurdity see that's a whole world of comedy that i can appreciate but it doesn't knock me out i i respect python i respect you know i've watched them i'm i'm in all of them but like it's not it doesn't resonate the same with me as as you know just well yeah but like you said you didn't grow up like that's all you wanted to do is be on snl like did have you ever had any desire you did really what would you do on snl i would do the news
Guest:You would be good at that, yeah.
Marc:Or just the commentary.
Marc:I already told that story in the show.
Marc:I jumped through several hoops.
Marc:I had a meeting with Lauren.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah, the same day that Tracy Morgan did.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:And clearly it went different ways for us.
Marc:Tracy is probably in a large car, wearing a lot of gold jewelry, laughing.
Guest:He almost had his leg cut off, so look at it that way.
Marc:Sure, I can do that, that reductive rationalization.
Marc:And I do do that sometimes.
Marc:But I think the future of what you also are championing, and I'm looking at you as a... I'm framing you as a promoter.
Marc:Yeah, well, I'm a producer.
Marc:A producer, that's right.
Marc:A producer.
Marc:Is that, like, I don't spend a lot of time watching videos on the internet, but it's clear to me that a couple of things, that comics and sketch performers will work for absolutely nothing for many hours.
Marc:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:That's clear.
Marc:And that it's a viable outlet for comedy.
Marc:Like Funny or Die and what you're doing with Zach, who I resented but now like a lot.
Guest:Why did you resent him?
Guest:It's the same reason.
Marc:Do you both have facial hair?
Marc:No, he's very popular.
Marc:He's very popular.
Marc:You...
Marc:You are very popular.
Marc:Yeah, I just remember one time I condescended to him.
Marc:Did you hear the shrug in my voice when I said that?
Marc:You are very popular.
Marc:You do all right for yourself.
Marc:Well, I just remember there was a time when I was younger and I saw Zach at Largo and he was wearing a George Washington costume.
Marc:That's a funny bit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I was just sort of like, so is that what you got to do for your act?
Guest:You said that to me the other day watching someone who will remain nameless three weeks ago.
Guest:And you you looked at someone up on stage who was very funny and you said, oh, so that's what that's all it takes.
Guest:That's what you got to do.
Guest:What were they doing?
Guest:I don't want to say because it'll let everyone know who we're talking about.
Guest:Okay, so sometimes it happens still.
Marc:I'm not perfect, Scott.
Marc:I wrestle with these things.
Guest:But anyway, back to Zach.
Guest:So you resented him, but now- No, no, no.
Marc:I just say that because I did a great episode with him.
Marc:I interviewed him in his trailer on set, and we had a great time, and he's been very generous with his time.
Guest:He's such a great guy.
Marc:He really is a nice guy.
Guest:I don't mean professionally.
Guest:I just mean personally.
Guest:As a person, yeah.
Guest:And he's very funny.
Marc:It took me a long time to acknowledge other people's funny because I saw everything as a threat and those days were over.
Guest:As a competition, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, something.
Marc:Just like, why am I not that person?
Marc:But but but Zach is very funny.
Marc:And the thing that you're doing on Funny or Die, the in between two ferns like I look forward to.
Marc:And that is something that is very specific.
Marc:Not everybody knows about it, but it is playing on something else.
Marc:But it is uniquely Internet driven in a way.
Guest:Yeah, it's pretty it's just all been Internet at this point.
Marc:But it's it's in that.
Marc:But to me, that's the best utilization of you realize the context.
Marc:You know exactly what you're doing.
Marc:There's something there's something tongue in cheek about, you know, talk shows and whatnot.
Marc:But it is it is only an Internet thing.
Guest:I mean, it started as a as a thing for TV, though.
Guest:That's the thing that a lot of people don't know about it.
Guest:It was in my Fox pilot.
Marc:Where can they find that?
Marc:At Funny or Die Between Two Ferns, right?
Guest:Yeah, Funny or Die Between Two Ferns.
Guest:Yeah, we've done eight episodes, I think.
Guest:We just released the last one.
Marc:There's a couple that are just great.
Marc:The Natalie Portman one in the show.
Marc:Now, they're all in on the joke.
Marc:Listen to me like I'm a guy.
Marc:I'm one of the people who write to me about things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, how can you not know?
Guest:I don't want to necessarily talk too much about that process of it because out of respect for Zach, we've had reporters who want to come watch.
Marc:But this is on me and it's just us here.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There's not that many people listening.
Guest:I mean, he's been very nice about, like, in interviews, giving me and B.J.
Guest:Porter credit about, you know, we're the guys who, you know, are there filming and we can't say we write for them because that gives away too much almost.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Anytime you see the credits, you never see written by Scott Aukerman and B.J.
Guest:Porter.
Guest:You just see produced by Scott Aukerman and B.J.
Guest:Porter.
Guest:Got it.
Guest:But, you know, we're the people there who are kind of putting them together and doing them.
Marc:I'm getting the underlying message.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe someday we'll talk a little more about how they're done.
Marc:When it becomes mythic and everybody knows about it and the tell-all book?
Guest:No, I mean, come on.
Guest:It'll never be that big.
Guest:Zach has wanted to shy away from the magician revealing too much.
Marc:I do the same thing with guests.
Marc:Some people, I have guests on the show, they don't know if they're real or not, and I understand that.
Guest:Oh, you mean people do characters and they like Chupacabra or something?
Marc:No, but I have people on the show that it's not clear to some of my listeners whether or not they're real guests or not, and I won't tip it anymore.
Marc:But Chupacabra is such a unique thing.
Marc:I had him on a couple shows ago, and I didn't know how far I could push a character.
Marc:He did one thing.
Marc:We improvised everything, but the last time, I literally talked to the character for half an hour just to see...
Marc:the depth that he could go.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:That's what I love to do on my show is like for a while I was just trying to have characters on for a segment.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, for 10 minutes or whatever.
Guest:And now I just love talking to them for the entire hour.
Marc:It even becomes funny when it breaks in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because the joy of seeing like, you know, after a certain point when you've taken it as far as it can go or you just crack up or the person who's doing it cracks up is actually great because I think it reveals the talent even more.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, who are some of the, well, I mean, you don't want to say.
Marc:I don't use many of the people that you used.
Marc:I've used Minor, and I've used Nick, but I think those are the only two crossovers.
Guest:Because I think I read about one of your shows where people just thought it was an annoying person, and then they, I get that with Tom Lennon doing Little Gary, he does a character called Little Gary on my show, which,
Marc:uh is the is probably the only character that people actually think is a real person it's great when they do because like in terms of my show the the what the fuck umbrella if i can make them say what the fuck you genuinely because they don't know if something's real as a clip well yeah but it's just good and tom lennon people don't know is the uh the writer of the night at the museum movies and also uh formerly a member of the state and creator of reno 911 he's officer dangle with the short shorts
Marc:I got to start doing that more because I realize a lot of times I'm talking about- Giving no context.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Odenkirk and I were talking about Bernie Brillstein.
Marc:You would think like in this world, everyone knows who Bernie Brillstein is, but not everyone.
Guest:But everyone will forget all of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the sad truth of it.
Marc:None of us are Beethoven.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Will Rogers was huge once.
Guest:People used to know who Sam Kinison was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think he's still on the periphery.
Marc:Nope.
Marc:Gone.
Marc:Except for-
Marc:Except in that picture right up there.
Marc:Don't know who that is.
Marc:Yeah, that's Sam Kennison and me.
Marc:Is that you next to him?
Marc:Yeah, very pale.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Full of the coke.
Guest:You look dead.
Guest:Yeah, you look dead, but you also look like you're trying to look like John Lennon a little bit or like you're in the wonder stuff.
Marc:I don't have to try.
Marc:I mean, with a little effort and another pair of glasses, I can look very Lennon-esque, but so can anybody.
Guest:But I mean, your hair is long in that, well, we're here sitting on a podcast describing a picture no one will ever get to see.
Marc:Here's another thing I wanted to bring up before we end our wonderful time together.
Guest:Let's get real, yeah.
Guest:Do you want to cry?
Guest:Ask me the most fucking real question you can.
Marc:This is about as personal as I can get with you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:One night a few years back, you did something that garnered you from me a lot of respect.
Marc:But it's completely off the grid.
Marc:I walked into a party...
Marc:at a bar where they had karaoke.
Marc:And you were singing Radiohead's High and Dry, I think.
Guest:Love that song.
Marc:How the fuck do you do that?
Marc:How do you sing?
Marc:Yeah, how do you sing karaoke?
Marc:How are you not afraid of that?
Marc:And especially that song, you were doing that falsetto voice, and I'm like, oh my God, this is so vulnerable and weird.
Marc:Does he see it as that, or is it just something he knows how to do?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Am I overthinking it?
Guest:I started as a singer.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I started, it's weird.
Guest:I had a strange background where I was super into comedy, super into Saturday Night Live, and just comedy in general, like anything funny.
Guest:Growing up, I was into the funny pages.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Just really into comedy.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:I'm 40.
Guest:I'm turning 40.
Marc:Did you ever read my favorite jokes at the back of Parade Magazine?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, that used to be the highlight for me.
Guest:Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, where it's just like, I want anything comedy or comic books to me.
Right.
Guest:So, but, you know, hand in hand with that, I also was really into musical theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I always just assumed I was going to grow up and go on Broadway.
Guest:Broadway, I should say.
Guest:The Great White Way.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:This is interesting.
Marc:You were in musical theater?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You were in high school?
Guest:High school.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Musical theater.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And then I went to college and I actually went to an acting school.
Guest:Bye Bye Birdie?
Guest:I never did Bye Bye Birdie.
Guest:What did you do in high school?
Guest:In high school I did...
Guest:In the performing, I went to one of those performing arts high schools.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:So the fame schools.
Guest:So you dance too?
Guest:I'm not a very good dancer, but yeah, tap dance I actually was okay at.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:But I did Chicago.
Marc:I'm saying this like, oh, you poor thing.
Guest:I was Billy Flynn in Chicago, the part that Richard Gere played in the movie.
Guest:I was the dentist in Little Shop of Horrors.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That was at the performing arts high school.
Guest:Then I went to this...
Guest:A college, a conservatory college, where I was in Oklahoma.
Guest:I was currently in Oklahoma.
Guest:I was in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, Jesus Christ Superstar.
Guest:So I did all these things, and then I toured around the country doing musical theater.
Marc:Did this coincide with the sexual identity crisis?
Yeah.
Guest:Where did you read about that?
Guest:It was an easy jump.
Guest:So I was 22 to 23.
Guest:I was touring around the country like in Sacramento and Indiana and places like that.
Guest:So that kind of singing here, I was thinking like rock singer, but no.
Guest:But I also had bands.
Guest:That was the other thing.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I had bands in high school.
Marc:To fight against the sexual identity crisis.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But see, my bands were more like ironic.
Guest:But in the middle of the irony, because I had a good singing voice, I would do really stark confessional pretty songs that I wrote.
Marc:Just for the girls.
Marc:For the girls.
Guest:Yeah, but they were also just for me to work out my shit with women that I was having.
Guest:So I would write because I was somewhat...
Guest:Unlucky in love.
Guest:I would imagine like you, like getting fucked over by girls, but fucking over girls at the same time.
Guest:I think that's like anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was writing songs.
Guest:Like I would write these like funny songs, but I would also write these like really kind of, you know, Elvis Costello influenced, you know, with a prettier melody than Elvis Costello because he gets really into the just repetitive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But so so I was doing that at the same time.
Guest:And so, like, for me, I quit doing all that and just moved here and became in comedy.
Guest:But for me, like, it's not that big of a deal to be up there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:You know, like singing pretty or whatever.
Guest:And it's like a trick almost I can pull out.
Marc:I got to learn that trick before I die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anyone can sing.
Guest:I can teach you.
Marc:No, I can sing.
Marc:I play guitar.
Marc:It's like literally when I get in front of people to sing or play guitar, I start sweating.
Marc:I mean, it's crazy.
Marc:And I'm very revealing as a comic, but for some reason, the vulnerability of singing is baffling.
Guest:It's so much easier, though.
Guest:I was watching Comedians the other day.
Guest:Can I do it at Comedy Death Ray?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you want to sing some songs?
Guest:Do you write songs?
Guest:No, but I don't know, man.
Guest:You could sing a song someone else wrote.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Let's put together a whole night where comics just sing songs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Matt Besser put together...
Guest:A night like that right before his wedding.
Guest:Maybe a Shel Silverstein song or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we all sang songs and it was really fun.
Guest:Good to see people who aren't really- I gotta try it.
Marc:I'm waiting for Barron to do another Bring the Rock thing.
Guest:Oh, that's fun.
Marc:Because I wanted to do it the last time but I sort of chickened out.
Marc:Because I sing at home.
Marc:Singing gets me through my life.
Guest:I sing in my living room.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:No one is judging you when you're singing.
Guest:They judge you as a comic.
Guest:No, no, no one.
Guest:When you're a comic, people are judging you sentence by sentence.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like people are sitting there going, is that sentence funny?
Guest:Is that sentence funny?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:As a musician, you're judged on what?
Guest:Like a chorus?
Guest:Like, does that chorus sound good?
Guest:Or like, what if he's just a shitty singer?
Guest:but who cares?
Marc:Like, as long as you're, that's what I got to keep in my mind.
Guest:You know, as long as you're kind of emoting and expressing yourself.
Marc:It's so funny because that audience is comedy death row.
Marc:Cause you know, I fight with that audience just cause it's something I make up in my head.
Marc:Like, you know, like I, I always feel like they're, they're judging me deeply and that I'm like, there's some weird old guy to them.
Marc:But you always say that and you always destroy there.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It takes a while though.
Marc:I have to bring them around to the real thing.
Guest:you have to instruct them about who you are no you're getting very well known though especially with this like I noticed once you start doing this show like the uptick in your sort of visibility this sounds so fucking businessy but you know like more people were into it when you'd be listed on a show right right that's good yeah Scott Ackerman good times thanks buddy it's always a pleasure I feel great I think it was a wonderful conversation please come on my show alright Scott thanks
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's all there is.
Marc:Look, later this week, I believe on Thursday, Brendan Burns is going to be on the show.
Marc:He's from Australia originally, does a lot of work in England.
Marc:Sort of a rebel, kind of a, you know, dude with an edge.
Marc:Guy I've known about, known of for a long time.
Marc:We've crossed paths a couple of times.
Marc:Looking forward to talking to him.
Marc:Robin Williams next week and perhaps Stephen Pearl.
Marc:Pearl is the pod of the early 80s San Francisco scene.
Marc:The inventor and creator of the riff style, as I like to call it.
Marc:Some sort of extension of perhaps Lord Buckley and on through the Borscht Belt.
Marc:I'm not sure, but those people are coming up.
Marc:They are coming up.
Marc:As for other things, WTF Pod has now got other things that you can do there.
Marc:You can look at videos.
Marc:You can follow us on Twitter.
Marc:But more importantly, get on the mailing list, man, because we're doing a weekly newsletter.
Marc:We're giving you information about the comics.
Marc:We're giving you links to the comics.
Marc:I'm writing a little this and that for each week.
Marc:I'm telling you what's going on.
Marc:And if I mention something on the show, like a grape nut pudding recipe, I may just send that out in the newsletter.
Marc:You could request things that you want me to send out in the newsletter that I might have around the house that might be of use to you.
Marc:It's going to be full of surprises.
Marc:WTFpod.com is where you got to go to get on board with that.
Marc:You can also get your JustCoffee.coop over there.
Marc:And certainly you can go to PunchWineMagazine.com for all your up-to-date comedy news and whatnot.
Guest:Now, that being said, I hope I see you in Portland.
Guest:I hope I see you in New York.
Guest:I hope I see you in Philly.
Guest:If you don't know what's going on in Philly, go to the website and check or get on the newsletter.
Guest:The update.
Guest:The WTF update.
Guest:Dig it.
Guest:Bye.
you