Episode 639 - Keith Richards
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuckadelics what the fuckineers what the fuckaholics what's happening this is mark maron this is wtf the podcast yes keith richards keith richards is on the show he's got a new album out
Marc:Cross-Eyed Heart, which is out now.
Marc:It's a sweet record.
Marc:It's closer to Talk is Cheap, which was a great solo record.
Marc:There's a documentary, Keith Richards, Under the Influence.
Marc:It's now on Netflix at Everyone's Loving.
Marc:I got to watch it.
Marc:But I talked to him.
Marc:I talked to Keith Richards.
Marc:Okay, am I going to keep it together just even to do this intro?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:This is a pretty big day.
Marc:Might be the biggest day ever.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was a pretty insane day for me when this episode was recorded.
Marc:I can tell you that.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:I mean, I know some of you know...
Marc:That Keith Richards looms large in my psyche and in my heart, people.
Marc:And I don't think I'm alone in that.
Marc:I know that there's people in my generation, maybe the generation before me and the one before that and the one after me, that Keith is just the guy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:He was just the guy.
Marc:I mean, there are those of us who idolized.
Marc:And still do just that, that, that outlaw rock and roll image that he created and, and, and remains.
Marc:I mean, I don't even know if I can explain it, but there was just something about Keith and, and, and those who get it, get it.
Marc:I mean, Keith was just like the, the personification of fuck you and
Marc:And there was something about that with a guitar.
Marc:He was just a big fuck you with a guitar.
Marc:And I was compelled, man.
Marc:I don't even know when it first happened to me.
Marc:I mean, I knew the Stones, but in my mind, there's a...
Marc:An issue of Guitar Player Magazine with him.
Marc:It's not even a particular good picture.
Marc:With his eyes half closed.
Marc:With that fucking Telecaster.
Marc:That TV yellow Telecaster.
Marc:Just leaning into it.
Marc:And I was like, God damn it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's all of it.
Marc:That's all you need.
Marc:Is whatever's going on right there.
Marc:That's all you need.
Marc:And it wasn't even about necessarily...
Marc:It wasn't even about being in a band or anything.
Marc:It was just something about Keith and about drugs and about fuck you and about style and about all of that.
Marc:Look, I'm fortunate that I didn't pursue the exact life he represented.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Not so deeply that I died for it or got strung out.
Marc:I'm also fortunate that I didn't pursue a life in music.
Marc:I only say that because I just wasn't cut out for it.
Marc:I was not that good a player.
Marc:Wasn't that confident necessarily, which I learned now is really all you need.
Marc:I mean, but you know, being in a rock band was just not the direction that my ego was dragging me at that time.
Marc:And also I think it would have diminished it.
Marc:My love and worship for fucking Keith Richards, the coolest guy in the fucking world.
Marc:And I know that may sound hacking to some of you kids as I condescend to you.
Marc:I know even using the term rock and roll may sound dated and weird.
Marc:But Keith Richards was the original thing.
Marc:Mark Lehner, the writer, I think he was in an article for Spin.
Marc:I couldn't find it because I was looking for it.
Marc:It said that Keith Richards moving across the stage.
Marc:was like the EKG of rock and roll.
Marc:And I thought that was just fucking beautiful.
Marc:I actually wrote to him to find out exactly what he said, but he had no recollection of it.
Marc:But it's a weird thing with Keith because my relationship with him is ongoing.
Marc:Because my love of a particular type of rock and roll came directly from Chuck Berry somehow through my father and through listening to the American Graffiti soundtrack and my father's love of all these.
Marc:I was just captivated by Chuck Berry and by that original riff.
Marc:You know, the riff.
Marc:And then, like, years go by where I'm just, I'm loving Keith.
Marc:I love the Midnight Rambler song more than anything in the world.
Marc:And I don't even understand, you know, what makes Keith the amazing guitar player that he is.
Marc:And over the years, you know, to understand Keith's rhythm and to understand, you know, why he's amazing.
Marc:You know, because he's not like other guitar players.
Marc:He's fucking Keith Richards.
Marc:But the way he lays back and the way he nails a chord and the way that he decides what the rhythm is for a song and where it's at.
Marc:I mean, it's fucking, you know,
Marc:He's fucking Keith, man.
Marc:And I know some of you heard, I could barely keep my shit together when I did that 10-minute interview with him.
Marc:And some of you know that I read his book like it was a Bible that I could believe in.
Marc:And I was blown away by his book because for years, you know, you just sort of keep Keith tucked away in your mind as this amazing, you know, dope fiend survivor.
Marc:You know, this this this icon that represents the sort of like dark heart of rock music in some way.
Marc:And then you read that book and you're like, holy shit, he's one of the great, you know, intelligent bullshit spinners of our time.
Marc:There's a lot of hard truth, a lot of fact, a lot of history, but the dude can tell a story.
Marc:And to me, that was just like, this only makes it better.
Marc:This only makes Keith bigger, looming larger in my mind in different ways.
Marc:I guess it's just a big fucking, you know, love note to Keith Richards.
Marc:But I was offered the opportunity to interview him.
Marc:Now, you know, the Obama interview was intense and huge and an amazing event and an amazing interview.
Marc:But...
Marc:I thought that, you know, I got my shit together.
Marc:I knew what I was going to talk to the president about.
Marc:You know, I prepared.
Marc:I stayed focused.
Marc:I think you could hear my nervousness was tangible in the first five or six minutes, but I think I eased into it.
Marc:And, you know, within a very short time, I was calling him man and finishing his sentences for him.
Marc:That's the leader of the free world.
Marc:Could I keep my shit together with Keith Richards?
Marc:Did I prepare?
Marc:So my interview with Keith was to take place in New York City.
Marc:It was to take place at the NPR building in an NPR studio because Keith was coming down from Connecticut to record Morning Edition.
Marc:So we got to, the publicist, Fran, who was amazing, set us up to use the NPR studio after he did Morning Edition for an hour.
Marc:And, you know, Brendan McDonald, my producer, business partner who you met on the episode after Obama,
Marc:I mean, you've met him before if you've been around a long time with the show.
Marc:You know, we go down there to NPR and we get there on time and we're informed.
Marc:We sit down in a conference room with Fran and another person from her her organization, the publicity house.
Marc:And we're told that Keith is stuck in traffic coming down.
Marc:He's running a bit late, probably an hour late.
Marc:He got stuck behind a funeral procession.
Marc:I'm not I'm not I'm not even fucking kidding.
Marc:So we talked to Fran for a little while and this we were in a conference room where they were going to meet Keith and then he's going to do morning edition.
Marc:Then he was going to regroup in there.
Marc:And I noticed.
Marc:You know, on the counter, there was a small case of vodka miniatures and a two six packs of I believe it was sun kissed orange soda.
Marc:So I'm like, that's the new fuel.
Marc:I'm putting shit together.
Marc:And so Brendan and I go, we go to Bryant Park and we have something to eat and then we come back.
Marc:And we're waiting and Keith's about to show up.
Marc:We were told, and I don't even want to see him.
Marc:I don't want to see him.
Marc:I don't want to have eye contact with him.
Marc:I don't want to, I don't want, I can't handle it, man.
Marc:I can't handle it.
Marc:So Keith shows up.
Marc:I hide in an office.
Marc:He goes into the studio to do Morning Edition.
Marc:And at some point, I'm talking to Brendan.
Marc:I'm like, this is fucking crazy, dude.
Marc:We're at NPR.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:I'm going to interview Keith Richards.
Marc:It's just crazy, man.
Marc:And I was trying to keep it together, but this was sort of a big deal.
Marc:when somebody is your childhood hero.
Marc:It's like some of you got all excited when so-and-so signs your baseball.
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:Waiting to meet Keith Richards, the guy that I think defined a lot of my personality for a lot of years.
Marc:Like I said, I'm lucky I lived.
Marc:And I'm lucky that there was some part of me that didn't let me drift into complete pseudo Keith Richardness.
Marc:There was always some part of me, some part of my mind or my heart that would throw me a line when I got too far out to drift and saved me from sort of living on the dark side.
Marc:But there we were.
Marc:Me and Brendan waiting to talk to Keith Richards.
Marc:He's in the studio at NPR, National Public Radio in New York City.
Marc:And at some point, a woman comes up a bit.
Marc:She comes out of a hallway a bit frantic saying, he's smoking in there.
Marc:He's smoking a cigarette in there.
Marc:And I was like, oh, that's so fucking beautiful.
Marc:Keith Richards is smoking in an NPR studio of all places.
Marc:Oh, fucking the human fuck you lives on.
Marc:And the beautiful thing was, is no one was going to fucking stop Keith Richards from smoking a cigarette.
Marc:No fucking way.
Marc:So I'm waiting and we're just waiting.
Marc:And then I hear that he's finishing up and then I go hide in this office because I do not want to see him.
Marc:I do not want to meet him.
Marc:I don't want to do anything.
Marc:So then we're told.
Marc:He's going to regroup.
Marc:He's going to go into the conference room and reload whatever.
Marc:So I go into the studio and it smells like cigarettes.
Marc:There's an ashtray there.
Marc:There's a pitcher of water.
Marc:I've got my little tube of nicotine lozenges and I'm sitting in there and I got my little scribble sheet and I'm waiting for Keith.
Marc:And I was just sitting there and then there's commotion and I see outside the booth in the glass, Keith Richards walking in with a Captain America t-shirt on.
Marc:And man, I don't know, dude.
Marc:Like I stood up and I'm like, Keith, you know, oh boy.
Marc:So I guess like, so we sat down
Marc:And I'd like to say that I kept it together.
Marc:I'd like to say that the nervousness, the fanboy excitement receded or I got it together after a few minutes like I did with the president.
Marc:But I don't think I did.
Marc:I was very excited and beside myself.
Marc:And, you know, we talked a lot about music.
Marc:You know, I've loved The Stones a long time.
Marc:And, you know, I'm sort of hung up.
Marc:You know, like we talk about Bill Wyman, the original bassist.
Marc:We talk about, you know, the whole arc of the career.
Marc:You know, the history of the Stones is the history of modern rock and roll in a lot of ways.
Marc:And I sat there with Keith.
Marc:He came in.
Marc:He walked in the studio trying to fucking recapture it in my head.
Marc:It was amazing.
Marc:He had a big one of those sort of like keg party cups, like the red plastic cup filled to the brim with something iced and orange.
Marc:And he was chipper and present and a little loopy.
Marc:But it was exactly, it was, I would have taken Keith any way, any way it happened.
Marc:But he was fun.
Marc:We had a good time.
Marc:And there's something that happened after we hung out.
Marc:It was because we were doing pictures.
Marc:And he put his arm around me and he gave me a hug and he said, you're a fun one.
Marc:I don't want what, but you're a fun one.
Marc:So I don't know if you knew that, folks.
Marc:But after this interview, whatever happened, Keith Richards declared me a fun one.
Marc:So.
Marc:rolling stones fans lapsed rolling stones fans or people who are too young to appreciate the fans uh this is this is a a historical document of a fucking lifetime fan meeting his fucking hero so um so enjoy this all right i i did me and keith richards
Guest:Hey man, nice to meet you.
Guest:Wow, let's do it.
Okay.
Marc:We're on.
Marc:We're on.
Marc:I got my nicotine candies.
Marc:You got yours?
Guest:Oh, baby, yeah.
Marc:Right here.
Marc:You got the real ones.
Marc:Oh, I miss the Marlboro Reds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I actually thought about smoking.
Marc:I thought if there was a time to start again, it would be with you.
Marc:Let me just hold one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can just look at it if you like.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:What are we drinking this afternoon?
Guest:Nuclear waste.
Marc:Oh, perfect.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You've adapted to it.
Marc:No problem.
Guest:I'm ahead of the game.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I figured you'd drink nuclear waste.
Marc:You have to, right?
Marc:Just to keep going?
Guest:No, just to talk to you.
Marc:I'm dying to figure out whether I'm going to light this fucking cigarette.
Marc:You know what's interesting?
Marc:Let's see if you can hold out.
Marc:Okay, I'll try.
Marc:I'll try.
Marc:It's been about a decade, but I think I talked to you briefly on the phone.
Marc:I don't know if you remember.
Marc:I'd like to think you would remember.
Marc:We talked.
Marc:I told you that I started smoking because of you.
Marc:I started drinking.
Marc:Oh, you're the one.
Marc:I'm the one.
Marc:Good one.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:But it was funny because I remember reading an interview with you and they asked you what kind of cigarettes you smoke.
Marc:And he said, well, Newport, sometimes Marlboro Reds.
Marc:So I was about 14.
Marc:I went out and got a pack of both and just played it out.
Marc:See what stuck.
Marc:I don't know where they got the Newports from.
Marc:You never said it.
Marc:Never tried it.
Guest:Marlboro Reds, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:Well, whatever.
Marc:I was walking around with both in high school trying to figure out how to be Keith Richards.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Yeah, it was a rough few years.
Guest:I was in school trying to figure out how to be Keith Richards, too.
Marc:Strange, isn't it?
Marc:You figured it out.
Marc:I interviewed the president a few weeks ago, and I'm actually a little more frazzled about this, because presidents come and go, but you're Keith Richards, you remain forever.
Guest:Yeah, that's one of the blessings.
Guest:You're like royalty, man.
Guest:Oh, I don't know about that.
Guest:I have no crown.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Are you sure?
Marc:I think you do.
Marc:I think you do.
Marc:Well, this is like a... I'll get through the nerves in a minute, but it's a big deal to meet you because you're a big idol of mine.
Marc:Now, when you started playing and you guys started to sort of come into your own, do you remember the first idol of yours that you met?
Marc:Oh, um...
Guest:Little Richard.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Bo Diddley.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, because we suddenly, we were thrown onto this tour.
Guest:I mean, before that, we'd been working clubs, you know.
Guest:I mean, suddenly we had a record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were thrown on this tour with Little Richard, Bo Diddley, and the Everly Brothers.
Guest:And I suddenly met half of my mentors.
Guest:And I'm working with them, too, which was an amazing education.
Guest:I mean, that's a university for me.
Marc:Did you talk to Bo?
Guest:Did you ask him questions?
Guest:Yeah, we were on the road for like three or four weeks.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to take care of Jerome Green was his maracas player.
Guest:And Jerome was a great lush.
Guest:And it was my job to get him out of the pub, to get him on stage.
Guest:It's funny, I think those roles changed later in life.
Guest:I was willingly happy to do it.
Guest:Jerome was a loose cannon.
Guest:And somebody had to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So we ended up becoming great buddies and Bo.
Guest:Little Richard was amazing to watch.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:His stagecraft, let alone his music.
Guest:I mean, he had an English band with him, which they weren't bad.
Guest:A pickup band?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, basically.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they were pretty good.
Guest:But I mean, I'd have wished he had his own band with him, but at the same time.
Guest:Man, the way he would, you never knew where he was going to appear from.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:I mean, he'd let that band play Lucille, let the riff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For like five minutes, you know, nonstop.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In total darkness, you know.
Guest:And then he'd turn up.
Guest:In the back of the auditorium, you know, with the spotlight on him.
Marc:And walked through the crowd?
Guest:Yeah, and then walked through.
Guest:And I went, wow, the way you can work a room, man.
Guest:I'm learning.
Guest:I'm learning things.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You almost been learning things.
Guest:Yeah, and the Everly Brothers, I mean, so meticulously beautiful.
Marc:Those harmonies, right?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And you were with him for like three weeks you did that tour?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, 63.
Marc:So that was before England's newest hitmakers, or around the same time?
Guest:It had just come out about the same time.
Guest:When was the last time you listened to that record?
Guest:The odd track.
Marc:It's a weird thing, because I listen to that record a lot, and I came to the Stones much later, because I'm 51, so I was picking it up.
Marc:But that record, I played the shit out of that record.
Marc:To me, that was the pure intention, the birth of it all.
Guest:yeah in a way i guess it was it was for us anyway and uh and it was recorded in this little room that uh that professed to call itself a studio yeah um and uh the whole walls were covered in egg boxes that was called soundproof right yeah top notch and uh it was a grundig two-track
Guest:But it was hung on the wall.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Instead of, if it was on the table, it would have looked like, you know, I'm pro.
Guest:But it was hung on the wall.
Guest:Give it a professional feel.
Guest:Yeah, we cut the whole damn thing on that, you know.
Guest:And it was, so I started on two track.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Basic.
Marc:Did you do Honest I Do?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:On that one?
Marc:Can I get a witness?
Guest:Can I get a witness?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tell me.
Marc:Tell me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And like that, you set out to be a blues band.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:That was the intention.
Marc:Pure.
Marc:Straight up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And at that time, you know who I talked to?
Marc:I don't know if you guys are friends or not.
Marc:A couple weeks ago, I talked to Richard Thompson.
Marc:Oh, yes, yeah.
Guest:We're not friends because I hardly ever see him, but I know the man.
Marc:I think he was a little younger, but he was talking about the scene in London at that time.
Marc:There were so many bands, and you guys would all see each other late at night at restaurants and see each other play all the time.
Marc:And what was the scene you were involved in?
Marc:It was all blues, right?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, we were strictly, at that time, at the beginning of the Stones, strictly, you know, we were almost Jesuits.
Guest:Well, let's say missionary.
Guest:But no, our whole aim was to turn London on to, like,
Guest:you know, rhythm and blues on the blues.
Guest:That was like the scope for the whole universe would be that, you know, and to have three or four or five gigs a week and that would be, you know, that's it, you know.
Marc:Who were your guys early on?
Marc:Who were the dudes that you were the most trying to emulate on the guitar, like before Chuck, the straight up blues dudes?
Marc:T-Bone Walker.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Muddy Waters.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Very simply buddy guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Swim Harpo or was that late?
Guest:Yeah, Slim Harpo, I mean.
Guest:Jimmy Reed.
Guest:Yeah, Jimmy Reed was hard on Jimmy Reed.
Guest:Because we were not so much interested in being virtuosos.
Guest:It was how those guys got that sound.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And to us, it was...
Guest:The thing of trying to get close to making that kind of sound.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we studied, man.
Marc:What, you and Brian were sitting there?
Guest:We studied and starved.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was Brian's thing?
Marc:What was he into most?
Marc:Were you both in the same thing?
Guest:Brian was very big into Jimmy Reed.
Marc:Okay, yeah, so that's where that came from.
Guest:Yeah, mm-hmm.
Guest:Well, so Mick and I were also into it, but Brian had the records.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:We didn't, you know, Mick had the Muddy Waters and I had the Chuck Berry.
Guest:Brian had the Jimmy Reed.
Guest:Okay, all right.
Guest:So, I mean, there was an obvious collection, you know, and a connection.
Guest:But Jimmy Reed stuff, I still think, is some of the most beautifully recorded stuff and it's so simple.
Marc:Yeah, he does a weird thing right on the 5.
Marc:He leaves that open.
Guest:Yeah, because if you're playing in E, when he's playing the 5 chord, he lets the 3 chord, the 7th flute, still hang.
Marc:Right, he leaves the A open, right?
Guest:Yeah, he leaves it open.
Guest:I learned that from Bobby Goldsboro.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He hit you to that?
Guest:He hit me to that because he'd been on the road with Jimmy Reed.
Guest:So he helped me to, you know, the weird thing that makes that sound is like he does this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He leaves the open A string going.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I've been trying to get that for years.
Guest:I would never have figured it.
Marc:It's funny how those moments happen.
Marc:I mentioned they must have been a few of those moments, like when you were putting together your chops, where you're like, oh, fuck, that's how that goes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are you kidding me?
Guest:I mean, keep looking, you know, how did he pull that lick off?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even with Chuck, when you did that fucking movie with him?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:Bless his heart.
Guest:When he had the argument about the beginning of O'Carroll?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was touch and go, man.
Guest:Well, that was him testing me out, you know, and pushing...
Guest:Chuck always has to be numero uno.
Guest:Right.
Guest:After all, the movie's about Chuck.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:To me, I'm living my childhood dream of being a second guitar behind Chuck Berry.
Guest:You never knew what a pain in the ass that would be, I guess.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I tell you what, at the same time, he's a funny guy.
Guest:Just, what is it, mercurial.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:One minute, he's like, grouch, and then he'd piss off for half an hour.
Guest:And he'd come back and he'd be...
Guest:Back on top.
Guest:Did he take a hit or something?
Guest:He was a great movie changer, but incredible to work with.
Guest:And I think my best feat out of that was when I said to Chuck Berry, Johnny Johnson's still around.
Guest:Because...
Guest:Ian Stewart, who had just died that year, who was the Stones piano player.
Guest:From the beginning.
Guest:From the beginning.
Guest:I mean, actually, I consider the Stones to be Ian's band.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He put it together.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He poured us together.
Guest:Without him, we wouldn't have coagulated.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:And he only got pushed.
Marc:He stopped being in the main lineup because what happened?
Guest:Oh, well, he wasn't good looking enough, and they thought six was too many.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Stu, having the largest heart in the world, said, yeah, I understand that.
Guest:But we recorded, it was still his band.
Guest:And he became our roadie, our manager, road manager and everything.
Guest:Take care of everything.
Guest:So I think that Ian Stewart considered us his baby.
Guest:And I consider him my dad.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:But so your relationship with Ian sort of made you reach out and find Johnny.
Guest:Yeah, because the last thing that Ian Stewart ever told me, and this was just before he died, was he said, don't forget, Keith.
Guest:that Johnny Johnson is alive and playing in St.
Guest:Louis.
Guest:Ian said that to you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And within a year, I'm working with Chuck Berry.
Guest:And I was saying, you know, in my mind, I'm saying, well, without Johnny Johnson, it's never going to be the same.
Guest:So I say to Chuck...
Guest:Hey, Chuck, you know, Johnny around?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Chuck comes in a very dead pan and says, hmm, yeah, he's in town.
Guest:Any chance of getting him together on this thing?
Yeah.
Guest:I'll give him a call.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the next day there was Johnny, and then I realized I had... The band.
Guest:The stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I realized I had the stuff that had actually made Chuck's records.
Marc:Sounds so good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that he literally learned how to play those licks from Johnny's piano playing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That Johnny was first.
Guest:Yeah, actually.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's weird when I watch that movie because I've been a fan of yours my whole life, but I'm not sure I necessarily understood how complicated the rhythm of Chuck Berry is and how you deconstructed that to get your shit.
Guest:Yeah, it's a variation on the name, but Chuck and I basically play the same.
Guest:It's basically the role.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's syncopation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And for that you need...
Guest:a drummer that you can totally rely on, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And which was, unfortunately for Chuck, once he'd used pickup bands for... Went away.
Guest:Yeah, because he couldn't rely on the drummer, and they were just bands he'd never met, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which was unfortunate in that respect.
Guest:Because there's a bounce to it.
Guest:But I've no doubt Chuck walked out with the money.
Guest:In a briefcase.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In a catalog.
Guest:I know that briefcase.
Marc:But that's it.
Marc:That's a bounce.
Marc:There's a bounce, right?
Guest:It's a cut against the beat.
Guest:But the drama has to be right on for you to be able to chop the beat around and move it and make it roll.
Guest:That's the roll and the rock.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's Charlie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Solid.
Guest:And I count on that man a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Fantastic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I imagine you know, but I think what was it, Abco reissued a few of the old ones.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They reissued Get Your Ya Ya's Out, right?
Marc:So I used to listen to that shit in high school, right?
Marc:And I put on the reissue.
Marc:And I had this moment in my living room where I'm like, holy fuck!
Yeah.
Marc:Bill and Charlie are holding this whole thing together right now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Hey, nothing like a good rhythm section.
Marc:Until I heard that remaster and the way you guys were all fitting together, I was like, Jesus, man, that's so solid.
Marc:But I don't know why, I think in the live situation, I think Mick even said something about it, that they were nailing it that night.
Marc:Do you have memories of those nights in particular that you recorded?
No.
Guest:You know, when you're on stage, quite honestly, no, because I'm not thinking about we're being recorded or filmed, which is even worse, because people get aware of the cameras and they start to tighten up.
Guest:No tightening up.
Guest:I try and forget all about the...
Marc:know what's going on around me yeah just do the gig yeah yeah i saw you in uh san diego i went just now the first night of the tour it got better and better and that was a good show it was a good show it was a great i was nervous i was nervous for you i don't know what the hell i love you i love you
Marc:I hadn't been to see you in a long time.
Marc:I saw you guys in 81 at Madison Square Garden when, I guess it was probably the Tattoo You Tour, and Screamin' Jay Hawkins opened for some reason.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I think James Brown was supposed to, and then something happened.
Marc:I don't know what happened.
Marc:I probably didn't like Screamin' Jay.
Marc:I don't know, but it was just weird.
Marc:Screamin' Jay comes out with the voodoo stick.
Marc:I don't even think he had a fucking band with him.
Marc:Everyone in Madison Square Garden was like, what's happening?
Marc:And then you guys came out, and I didn't go see you because, I don't know, it was strange for me when Bill left.
Marc:Was it strange for you?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I was furious.
Guest:I sent out the hit men.
Guest:Except I love him so much.
Guest:I can't go that far.
Guest:I'll just break your legs.
Guest:It was a hard call, man.
Guest:What, did he tire out?
Guest:Yeah, and also he developed this fear of flying.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So he was like driving to every gig, which is like, you know, sometimes they were so far away.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And eventually he decided, it was his decision to call it the day, and...
Guest:I said, you're kidding me, man.
Guest:What are you going to do, right?
Guest:You're in the RAF in 1956.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Schlepping around in Germany.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was adamant and he made his decision and maybe it was right for him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And all I can say is that
Guest:Ooh, I get Daryl Jones.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was the first time I'd seen you guys in a long time.
Marc:And like I said, I was nervous because I hadn't seen you in 35 years.
Marc:And man, what a fucking... You sounded great.
Marc:And I mean, there was moments there where, you know, there... We've improved over time.
Guest:You've gotten good.
Guest:I think you're really tight right now.
Marc:You're good right now.
Marc:I'm going to take it up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the experience of it was, like, there was moments where Mick was running, you know, running back and forth.
Marc:Do you ever, like, at the point where you guys are at now, you know, I mean, we're mature gentlemen.
Marc:You're a little more mature than me.
Marc:Do you have moments where you're like, I hope he doesn't fall the fuck down?
Guest:Oh, no, I never worry about it.
Guest:No, Mick is so nimble, man.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:I mean, Charlie and I always watch Mick in case when you get out in the audience that you're not hearing the beat the same as it actually is.
Guest:But we're actually experts.
Guest:He's crossed the beat.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:You changed the mic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, we're like a safety net under Mick.
Guest:He doesn't realize it for me.
Guest:But, I mean, Charlie and I always, okay.
Guest:We got it.
Guest:We got him.
Guest:We can actually do that.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's where the job of a band is to support the front man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now, when we talked before, you talk a lot about the band and your band and the band, but I have to assume that when you guys started out, you know, at the beginning, you were just a bunch of buddies, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and it just evolved into this thing.
Marc:Brought together by the music.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Who was the guy that you guys used to play with or played his club when he started?
Marc:Was it Alex Corner?
Marc:Is that who it was?
Marc:Yeah, Alexis Corner.
Marc:Alexis Corner.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The Ealing Club, yeah.
Marc:And he was like a blues empresario?
Guest:Yeah, he at the time probably had the blues nailed down in London.
Guest:If you wanted to hear blues you had to see Alexis.
Guest:He's the only guy playing it basically.
Guest:Also he had Cyril Davis who was a great harp player.
Guest:And it was, they were good.
Guest:Alexis wasn't particularly, you know, that good.
Guest:I remember Alexis one night invited us, Mick and me up to do a number.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Mick and I said, we're going to do Roll Over Beethoven.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Alexis, he used to use a thumb pick.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He cut his strings and, oh, I'll leave it to you.
Guest:And you just took it?
Guest:Yeah, no, yeah.
Guest:He didn't want to play that rock and roll.
Guest:Oh really?
Guest:So he's a real purist?
Guest:Well kind of.
Guest:Also he appreciated rock and roll and everything but I mean he knew that he wouldn't be an addition.
Marc:I'm gonna bow out on this one.
Marc:Well, on the new record, you know, I listened to it like a couple of times.
Marc:Cross-Eyed Hearts, the name of the record, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the first song, like I noticed, like, you're going way back for that.
Marc:I mean, that's pre-Jimmy Reed, that's pre-Money Wars, Robert Johnson.
Guest:That's Robert Johnson.
Marc:Because I noticed, like, it is.
Guest:It's the tip of the hat to Robert Johnson.
Marc:It's like Hellhounds on my trail almost, man.
Marc:It's just a piece.
Marc:You can hear you breathing.
Marc:You can hear every squeak of your fingers and every pig.
Marc:It's all very raw and organic.
Marc:And then you're just like, that's all I got.
Marc:That's the riff.
Marc:It's almost like a blues meditation.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I thought that would be when we got all the tracks together.
Guest:If we're going to
Guest:put that blues in, might as well be the starter.
Guest:And then it's like,
Guest:when people walk into movies and they say, you know, the overture.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:There's sort of a subtle overture.
Marc:And then you bookended it with Goodnight Irene, another blues, different style, more of a folk blues, but on both sides, you've got Lead Belly.
Marc:Yeah, you've got Lead Belly and Robert just holding it all in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wanted to do a couple of classic American folk songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the weird thing that happened is that Tom Waits had sent me a big book on Lead Belly, and it had just arrived, and I just put it on the table.
Guest:And at the same time, a few hours later, in walks my guitar man, Pierre de Beauport.
Marc:How long have you been with that guy?
Marc:A million years, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Since early 90s, 91.
Guest:Brilliant guitar.
Guest:I mean, I'm lost without him.
Guest:He decides which guitar I'm going to play on songs.
Guest:That's how much I trust him.
Guest:He walked in with this 12-string, so I'm looking at this book of Lead Belly that Tom Waits has just sent me, and I'm looking at this 12-string, and I'm saying, I have no choice.
Guest:I've been ordered to do a good night, Irene.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's pretty haunting music, some of his stuff, huh?
Guest:Oh yeah, Lead Belly was... Deep.
Guest:Deep.
Guest:And I found the original lyrics, you know, which are much... I know, I didn't know them.
Guest:Yeah, they're much raunchier than... Right.
Guest:Because then it became, you know, you get the black and white minstrels singing it, I mean... Right.
Guest:And it became like an American folk song.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:People would waltz to it and stuff.
Marc:But it was kind of a dirty song.
Marc:The real show.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you've got a guitar guy, this guy Pierre, but you're pretty committed to a handful of guitars.
Marc:There's four or five that you play pretty much all the time.
Marc:Yeah, pretty much.
Guest:When it comes down to work, yeah.
Marc:And I was watching, I was trying to figure it out on stage, because I bought a Tele because of you, way back when.
Marc:Not a good one, but I had it.
Marc:I think you were on the cover of Guitar Player.
Marc:But yeah, I think you had one that was altered.
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:The rhythm pickup was regular, and then there was a humbucker.
Marc:You know, on the lead pickup.
Marc:We do screw around with them.
Guest:We do rewire them.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we do play around with the pickups on them, yeah.
Marc:And you play that 54 all the time, that cream one, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:For years.
Guest:Years, yeah, but I've been bashing the hell out of it still, you know.
Marc:What do you go into, though?
Marc:You're not pedal guy now, are you?
Marc:No pedals?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:Just straight in.
Guest:Hey, man, it's enough to stand up straight.
Guest:There's no poking around on buttons.
Marc:So you just change the volume when you need to.
Guest:Yeah, and also the...
Guest:I mean, any of those effects that I need actually can be done from behind.
Guest:PSA if we need.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because I need to know where to put my feet.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, tripping over those boxes.
Guest:that just ties you down.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Now, what made you decide, because when I talked to you before, you guys were maybe going to do Sticky Fingers.
Marc:You're going to run all three.
Marc:But that died in one night.
Marc:And the recording of it sounded great.
Marc:So what made you the next night decide, like, no, we're not going to do it?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:Maybe Mick's a better one to ask on that.
Guest:But, you know, you just thought, and I think we all thought that...
Guest:Doing the whole thing once was enough and actually we were sweating our balls and getting through it.
Guest:The whole album, the hardest one to play and one of the most beautiful ones was I Got the Blues, which is so slow.
Guest:The hardest thing...
Guest:for a band is to keep a slow tempo down.
Guest:I mean, everything tends to speed up.
Guest:So it has to be, you know, that Steve Gropper was great at that with Otis, you know.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And Al Jackson, the drummer, you know, in Memphis.
Marc:But you guys didn't want to drop into that.
Marc:I also noticed, I think that to be the greatest rock and roll band and the biggest rock and roll show, you've got to be big.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You did Moonlight Mile, which was beautiful.
Marc:He hit those fucking notes.
Marc:That was crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I started to like playing that on the stage.
Guest:At first, I thought,
Guest:It's going out on a limb here, Mick.
Guest:It's a little sparse.
Guest:But as we got into it, it was beautiful to play and great fun, and they were loving it out there.
Marc:Speaking of Otis, I was thinking about, because he could lay back on that groove, but I was thinking about, after Satisfaction was a hit, and then he decided to cover it, that must have been a big fucking day.
Guest:Yeah, that was...
Guest:Put another crown on, baby.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I mean, for one of our songs to be covered by one of the greatest R&B singers of all time, it was, you know, I mean, you know.
Guest:Let's die and go to heaven or wherever.
Guest:Because that was basically the cream on the whole thing.
Guest:And then Aretha did it.
Guest:And then we were like in double heaven.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it was great to get that respect and that respond and reciprocation back from, hey, after all, he played black music.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, why does white can be?
Marc:Yeah, and he found that groove, though.
Marc:Like, you know, to make that a soul song was something, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:And it was just amazing that these people that respected and admired so much would do one of our songs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you played with, on this record, on the new record, you used Spooner Oldham, right?
Marc:Spooner's there, yeah.
Marc:And he played with Aretha on some of the big hits, right?
Marc:Down in Muscle Shoals.
Marc:So that must have been amazing to work with that guy.
Marc:You'd worked with him before?
Guest:No, first time I've ever met Spooner.
Guest:Although I've known him, I feel like I've known him for years because he's been on...
Guest:so many records i was actually uh graham parsons that first pointed out spooner autumn to me really and that was in like 71. he knew it he felt it graham knew country music and then spooner was basically a country music player at that time and uh-huh i didn't even know that he was still around and uh on a couple of phone calls steve jordan bless his heart the man i worked with
Guest:who co-wrote these songs with me and produced it.
Guest:Great drummer.
Guest:Fantastic drummer.
Marc:Been playing with him a long time on your solo stuff.
Guest:Yeah, Charlie Watts said to me in about 85, 86.
Guest:We knew the Stones were going to take a hiatus or a hibernation or whatever you want to call it.
Guest:And Charlie Watts said, if you're going to work with anybody else, Steve Jordan's your man.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:And I took him at his work.
Guest:I listened to Charlie.
Guest:And Steve and I started to work together.
Guest:Not only we just sort of...
Guest:work together we fell into each other's arms and uh he's a great friend of mine that's great yeah it's beautiful man yeah i mean it's nice to walk into a studio with a bunch of dudes you know and yeah you know and trust and then we're gonna make something and so you know the winos came together you know ivan neville
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:What do you want to tell?
Guest:He'll never praise.
Marc:Forever you play with that guy.
Guest:I love that guy.
Guest:Long time, right?
Guest:Great player.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sympathical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And this was the last record that Bobby Keys played on?
Guest:unfortunately yeah i'm sorry you asked your friend man yeah yeah thank you very much yeah hey bobby's probably laughing his head off and we had no idea that was going to be his last recorded uh stuff when we did it but um no bobby hey that's mr rock and roll and uh
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As large as Texas, if not larger.
Marc:Between the two of you, it's like you're both Mr. Rock and Roll.
Marc:He certainly lived the life.
Marc:He certainly did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, when you lose somebody that you've been around with that long, but you know, I guess at some point you realize that we're all living on borrowed time, and he certainly didn't waste any, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:He said, I ain't got no time to lose, baby.
Is that what he said?
Yeah.
Marc:Now, before you met Graham, though, you were into country music, but do you think Parsons really kind of blew your mind on it, or what?
Guest:It's just that I met Graham in London.
Guest:He was actually with the Byrds at the time.
Guest:They'd done Sweetheart of the Rodeo.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they'd stopped in London and did a couple of gigs, and then they were destined to go play South Africa.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I happened to bump into Graham that night, I went to see the show, and we got to talking after, and he said, I'm getting this sort of feeling, you know, about South Africa, and I don't know, you know, I don't understand it, I don't know.
Guest:So I explained to him, he said, it's like going to the south, but even worse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is like, you know, this isn't segregation, this is apartheid.
Guest:And once he'd understood it, he said, well, and he left the birds that day and stayed with me in London.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:He just let them go on their own?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:On principle?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's fucking beautiful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there we became very, very close friends.
Marc:had a few cold turkeys together sweat it out yeah that's sad too yeah that guy died so young yeah man that's another one you know but you still do like it's interesting like this record uh you know it's got all the stuff that you love on it you know you've got you've got your soul ballad you know you got your country music the reggae was really good man
Guest:I was like, he's like doing reggae again.
Guest:But you love it.
Guest:I've always loved it.
Guest:I've lived in Jamaica for many years.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:You don't got that place anymore?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You still have it?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:At the time you got it, though, didn't you have to get it?
Marc:Like, you couldn't come home, right?
Guest:I burnt the passport, actually.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I got, someone sent me that box, that box set that you did with those guys in the cave or something.
Marc:What was that?
Marc:Oh, the Wingless Angels.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:The Rastafarian.
Guest:Those recordings are crazy, man.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:It's just like hours of like, you know, I'm like, oh, there's Keith.
Guest:I can hear a little Keith there, you know.
Guest:I'm just backing up.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was letting the guys have their thing.
Guest:It's wild, man.
Guest:And luckily, because nearly all of them have passed away since.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's a nice box, that box.
Guest:Yeah, it was a great experience.
Guest:And it was just to capture some of the last moments of this particular part of Jamaican culture.
Guest:And I managed to do it.
Guest:And they loved it.
Guest:We had great fun.
Guest:You couldn't have funnier sessions in your life.
Guest:A lot of weed.
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:A rum and milk.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So in terms of being at the age you're at now and sort of the type of songwriting you're doing, because there's a couple of songs on here, like on the new record, like Amnesia and Nothing on Me, where I felt were sort of like celebrations of being still alive in a way.
Guest:In a way, I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah i mean i nothing on me is uh it basically was about being busted right right yeah and it wasn't until after you listen to the whole record i realized that the cops crop up a lot in this record you know in uh on rob blind yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah well you made it you made it you're not wanted anymore you're good right yeah and there's no there's no warrants out you're set you're solid
Marc:Yeah, well, let's talk about guitar players for a minute.
Marc:All right, so you lost Brian, and then you bring Mick in, and then you toured with Mick a bit, Mick Taylor.
Marc:Now, I guess my question, if I'm really going to focus it, just out of my own curiosity, because there was some shift where you guys sort of invented modern rock and roll.
Marc:There was some shift, probably right in the middle or right after Satanic Majesties, where the entire sound and the groove became what the modern Stones are.
Marc:What do you think, what happened to sort of make that happen?
Marc:Was there a moment where you're like, this is where it's at?
Marc:I mean, the difference between how you cover Love in Vain or what you did with the blues and country music on Let It Bleed and Beggars in Exile, that became the template for rock and roll from that point forward.
Guest:In a way, I can put this in two words, Jimmy Miller.
Guest:Producer.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How did he affect that?
Marc:How did he influence it?
Guest:What did he say?
Guest:Well, after Satanic Majesties, we were, you know, Mick and I were like, we have to refocus.
Guest:I mean, that was a mad year.
Guest:I mean, you know, there was Sergeant Pepper and Satanic Majesties.
Guest:You know, well, I guess they're all on acid, right?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It was just true enough.
Marc:So you did all the acid, you did the thing.
Guest:Oh, they had gone to India.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you had to keep up with the Beatles.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, no, we had to refocus.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:So that was the end of you keeping up with the Beatles.
Marc:You're like, we've got to do our shit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I couldn't go anywhere near there.
Guest:And I realized that the Beatles, the boys themselves, sort of outpaced themselves in a way.
Guest:And they were, you know...
Guest:Well, they lasted one day.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:They did four or five years.
Guest:What are you going to do?
Guest:What are you going to do?
Guest:Numero uno, numero uno, numero uno.
Guest:And so they started, like anybody else, to play around.
Guest:But that was 67.
Guest:That was 66, 67.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Those years were all right.
Guest:I mean, it was crazy.
Guest:I mean, there was LSD all over the place.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so if you made... Did you like that shit?
No.
Guest:I had a couple of good trips and a couple of bad ones, you know.
Guest:Just like anything else, you know.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:But, no, it was not something that I'd wake up in the morning and sort of say, I must have a tap, you know.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Because then what are you going to do for the next three days?
Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, I mean, I don't say I regret any of it, but it was an experiment.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think, in a way, it kind of shook Mick and I up.
Guest:Because we said, boom, now we've really got to tighten up.
Guest:This is why we got Beggar's Banquet.
Guest:And I've got to say that Jimmy Miller was the key in tightening the band up and refocusing, so to speak.
Marc:Well, it seems like you guys, like you said about doing, you know, yeah, you want me to do it.
Marc:About smoking that first cigarette in 10 years with Keith Richards.
Marc:I don't know why I wouldn't do that.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Marc:I'm a bad influence.
Marc:Not you, Keith.
Marc:That sounds so... Not you.
Marc:You're not a bad influence.
Marc:So, but in terms of, because when you talk about it, you know, I got the blues, you know, and that laid back thing.
Marc:I mean, somebody, you know, relaxed the band.
Marc:And if it was Jimmy Miller, how did he do that necessarily?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Get you into that groove.
Marc:Because the sound is pretty different from Aftermath to fucking Beggars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was, I think...
Guest:After the Satanic Majesties, I think we'd actually reached the end of our tether.
Guest:We'd been working 350 days a year for like four years.
Guest:Where did you go on your vacation?
Guest:Vacation?
Guest:Forget about it.
Guest:If we weren't on the road, we were in the studio.
Guest:And I think, yeah, basically, even at that age, you know, we pretty much worn ourselves out.
Guest:The year between that and bringing and getting beggars' banquet together was...
Guest:Basically re-energizing, getting some rest, re-energizing and refocusing.
Guest:And as I say to me, it was Jimmy Miller that put the lens in the focus.
Guest:He was a drummer.
Guest:He had a great sense of sound.
Guest:And he loved the band.
Guest:And he brought out the best in us.
Marc:And did Brian die in the middle of that?
Guest:Somewhere around there, yeah.
Guest:Brian, I mean, he's the kind of guy you love to hate.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Brilliant but annoying, is that what you're saying?
Guest:Brilliant, yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Beyond an eye.
Guest:No, that motherfucker.
Guest:He would be in Chicago and play a gig and he'd get asthma.
Guest:I got to play three weeks in the Midwest.
Guest:without another guitar player thank god the girls were screaming loud enough i mean i'm trying to cover all bases and then i find out that he was out of the hospital the next day and they're hanging around screwing groupies and excuse me man we need a little more dedication you need a guitar you got a job yeah you have a job you're in a band
Guest:So it went kind of from there, yeah, you know, I mean, that he was, you know, he became a drag.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then when Mick Taylor comes in, that was a whole different kind of guitar player, right?
Marc:I mean, it's really interesting, the difference between, you know, like Taylor and Wood, but like Mick Taylor was like, he was a big part of the sound for a couple albums, huh?
Marc:He certainly was.
Marc:He was a brilliant guitar player.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How's he doing?
Guest:The last I saw him, he's doing all right.
Guest:He's a bit chubby.
Guest:But that's his privilege, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he plays great.
Guest:And we worked together for a couple of years.
Guest:But Taylor, you know, I mean, to me, I'm a guitar player.
Guest:But...
Guest:You know, on my own, I really, I mean, it doesn't interest me.
Guest:My interest is in playing off of the other guy and what you put together.
Guest:Because two guitars can sound like an orchestra if you do it right.
Guest:And that's really what I do.
Guest:As Ronnie and I, excuse me, call it.
Guest:the ancient form of weaving.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like where you don't know who's playing lead, who's playing rhythm.
Marc:That's what you did.
Guest:It all switches through.
Marc:And Mick Taylor was kind of his own dude, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I had to readjust for that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And at that same time, I'd just gotten into the five-string thing.
Guest:So I was rearranging my sound.
Guest:Where'd you learn that?
Guest:I'll tell you what, Ry Cuda was the first cat that I learned it from.
Guest:I saw her playing it.
Guest:I didn't learn it because he wouldn't teach you anything.
Guest:Ry keeps his secrets and bless his heart.
Guest:But I'm still finding out, man, what you can do with it because it's a whole different.
Guest:But to me, it sort of re-interested me in playing guitar.
Guest:Because I was pretty much at the end of my possibilities on just straight tuning.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:I'm not going to be Charlie Christian.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You accepted that.
Marc:And I don't want to be.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But when I got to the open G scene, I started to really research it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How to play a minor chord with open G.
Guest:And you get all of these resonating notes and drone notes and stuff that fascinate and still do.
Marc:Well, that's the genius of Keith right there.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:You're talking about the Beatles.
Marc:I can't believe I'm smoking my first cigarette in 10 years with Keith Richards in an NPR studio.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:huh how about that everything we're smoking at npr yeah when i you know what you know what album i love that that what song i love is when you play with george jones oh on the bradley barn bradley barn thing i listen to that all the time man i was i mean that was a real honor for me was it yeah yeah to work with george jones i mean first off
Guest:Graham Parsons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Graham Parsons, George Jones is like the... He's the singer.
Marc:The greatest singer.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:He's...
Guest:He's there with, you know, Aaron Neville is another cat that can use the voice as if it's, you know, effortless and do anything with it.
Guest:Frank Sinatra once said that he thought George Jones was the second best singer.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:I would take exception.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Amazing voice.
Guest:Amazing voice.
Guest:And a great guy.
Guest:Crazy as nuts in there.
Marc:Were you guys playing off each other in the studio at the same time?
Marc:Yeah, we hooked just like that.
Marc:You'd feel it, too, man.
Marc:That's a beautiful song.
Guest:Darling, there's talk around town.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's fucking great.
Marc:And you played with, you did a record with Jerry Lee.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:Jerry Lee is another great friend of mine.
Guest:Yeah, still?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's still hanging in, huh?
Guest:Man, he's amazing, man.
Guest:I guess you old devils got to stick together a little bit.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:We've had our tips and we've had our...
Guest:But no, Jerry and I, it's sort of a recognition of similar souls.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:And you were able to play with Muddy, and Buddy's still around, so you play with him sometimes?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Buddy was on the show with us in Minneapolis, in Milwaukee.
Marc:Did you play with Wolf?
Guest:Howling Wolf, yeah, once on that Shindig TV show.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:We didn't actually play with him, no.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:And you watched?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I once woke up in his house.
Guest:How'd that happen?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I fell asleep at Muddy's.
Guest:I woke up in Albemarle.
Guest:To Chicago?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was some party or something, you know.
Guest:They must have carried me from one on.
Guest:What are we going to do with this white kid?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:We'll just take him with us.
Yeah.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:There must have been a lot of lost weeks, Keith.
Marc:Here and there.
Marc:How do you level off?
Marc:How do you manage?
Marc:I mean, we don't need to get too far into it.
Marc:You got pretty strung out for a few years.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Deliberately.
Marc:It was an experiment.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Is that how you view it?
Guest:An experiment for a few years?
Guest:Yes, I'm the laboratory.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:When did you realize that the experiment was over?
Guest:It was going on too long.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You've been threatened with, you know...
Guest:Seven years hard time, you know.
Marc:That'll do it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love my band more than I love the stuff.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you're able just to taper off and get into a management system?
Marc:Boom.
Marc:I just kicked it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What a relief, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I got sick of dealers and junkies, you know.
Guest:Because you end up in that stuff.
Guest:You end up and you realize that...
Guest:The only people you're talking to are like, oh, they're strung out cats.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You're in a hotel room full of people you don't know.
Guest:Waiting for the man and all that.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And so it was, yeah, it was time to cut that out.
Marc:So do, cut it.
Marc:You know what's scary about that is that if you're in a room full of five or six of those dudes or whoever that attracts, if you go down, if you fucking OD, you know what?
Marc:You're going to be alone in that room.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:No one's going to fucking call the cops.
Marc:Don't tell me about it.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:Oh, shit, he's down.
Marc:Let's go.
Guest:I've seen the bodies.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's a scary fucking world.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I didn't realize you put out a new book that I downloaded to read on the plane, Gus and Me.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I read your children's book.
Marc:I thought it would take a little longer.
Marc:It took me eight minutes, but I downloaded it.
Guest:It took me four minutes to read it.
Marc:And to write it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's really a pretty book.
Marc:I mean, did you ever think in your life that you would be a children's book writer?
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, the idea came up.
Guest:I thought, are you kidding me?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Who came up with that idea?
Guest:The publishers of...
Guest:Of life, of my own book.
Guest:Somebody, they'd come up with this idea about, there was a chapter in there about my grandfather.
Guest:And they said, this could be a really nice children's story.
Guest:And I thought, if I'm going to write anything and do anything for kids,
Guest:yeah i can only talk about something i love you know which is my granddad and the guitar yeah you know so i was in a way it was like taking my hats off to gus who it was great to me he threw you a line he's your lifesaver it's a pretty it's a cute little book
Guest:And your daughter illustrated it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a family affair.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But she did a great job.
Marc:She did.
Marc:It's a pretty little book.
Marc:I couldn't believe I'm getting choked up reading a Keith Richards children's book.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I love to sort of throw you the odd.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I'm listening to your record, and then I'm reading your children's book, and I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:All I wanted to do was drugs, but I... I'm broadening my horizons.
Marc:I'll say, man.
Marc:Well, you've got some grandkids, right?
Marc:We've got five.
Marc:Five.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you love hanging out with them?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it's worth hanging around to be a granddad, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you ever think you would?
Guest:I mean, it's... Certain times, no.
Guest:But here I am, and there's five grandkids, and they're...
Guest:And it's another thing.
Guest:It takes you on another level.
Guest:It's one thing being a father.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is like fun enough.
Marc:You had a couple shots at that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Two sets.
Guest:Yeah, two sets of that.
Guest:And out they come.
Guest:But they're great little kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What, do they have a name for you?
Yeah.
Marc:Just grandpa or granddad or what do they call you?
Marc:Grandpa.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Him.
Marc:Him.
Marc:And you get along with all your kids?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:It's a very close family in that respect.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like a tribe.
Marc:How were you with your dad growing up in general?
Marc:Because I know you loved Gus, but your father, did you guys fight it out for a few years?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I grew up with just my mum and my dad.
Guest:So I grew up in a very adult area.
Guest:So I mean, sometimes I sort of wished I had a brother or a sister so I didn't have to listen to about the arguments about the rent and the insurance.
Guest:But there's no way out of that.
Guest:So you sort of grow up in an adult area.
Guest:household whether you like it or not yeah and they treat you like a kid at the same time you you know they have problems and uh but not between themselves but just like day-to-day living you know i mean my dad worked uh
Guest:And he worked his life for General Electric, making tubes.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Of all things.
Guest:Of all things, yeah.
Guest:And this I'll get around to in a minute.
Guest:So I leave home, 17, the bird leaves the nest.
Guest:And within a year, my mum and my dad had split up.
Guest:I think I was the only reason to stay around.
Guest:But...
Guest:So I, you know, suddenly I'm making some bread.
Guest:Immediately, I sort of take care of mum.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Me dad, whatever, for 20 years, no contact whatsoever.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in 82, I think 81, 82, I sent a note and said, see if you can get this through to my dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why haven't we seen each other so long?
Yeah.
Guest:So my dad comes down to my house, and I'd taken Ronnie Wood with me because I wanted protection.
Guest:So I meet my dad after 20 years, I was scared shit.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, in a way.
Guest:I needed some kind of support.
Guest:And out comes my dad, 20 years old, a little old bloke, great.
Guest:And we snapped two straight away.
Guest:I mean, we just got on.
Guest:And I had more fun with him for the next 20 years.
Guest:I showed him the world.
Guest:I said, get on this plane, come on.
Guest:And he's got Brookshire sitting on his lap.
Guest:And I gave him the whole world he hadn't seen for the last 20 years of his life.
Guest:We played dominoes endlessly with a lot of other guys.
Guest:He liked his rum.
Guest:But he could drink us all under the table.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:That's beautiful, man.
Guest:And your mom?
Guest:Yes, I always saw her.
Guest:The funny thing about my mom...
Guest:Is that she's she knows she's going and I went to the hospital clinic when was this is 2002 I think As I brought a guitar with me and I sit on the end of the play bed and She said
Guest:Keith, this morphine's not bad.
Guest:You're 93 at last.
Guest:Now you get it.
Marc:Oh, that's fucking beautiful.
Marc:So the new record's great, man.
Marc:All right, cool.
Marc:Love everything you do.
Marc:And I guess to finish up, when you look back,
Marc:Not so much about regrets, but is there anything you're still pissed off about?
Marc:Is there anything stuck in your craw about the way things went down?
Guest:I could have lived without being busted.
Guest:And without being like, you know, cops putting things in my pocket and stuff.
Marc:Oh, that happened, yeah?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It got set up?
Guest:It was terrible in London.
Guest:Oh, the first big bust?
Guest:Yeah, no, there was a second one that, you know...
Guest:What have we got here?
Guest:Oh really?
Guest:But I did have the pleasure of that gentleman.
Guest:His name was at the time was Constable.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:In fact, it was Constable Constable.
Guest:Constable Constable.
Guest:He got to be a sergeant or something before he was finally checked.
Guest:Nothing to do with me by then, but I just read in a favor.
Guest:that he's been sentenced to five years.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't even know why.
Guest:Fuck them.
Guest:Yeah, well, property for the same thing.
Marc:Send people up.
Guest:Or just corruption or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was a bent station and, you know, it's one of those things, you know.
Guest:cops ain't perfect nor am I so so Ronnie's good Ronnie's good Charlie's good you and Mick are good yeah everything's alright yeah looking forward to doing some more yeah alright well thanks for talking to me it was a real honour really fucking amazing pleasure man rather laugh and you smoked your first cigarette yeah with Keith Richards come on thanks man pleasure man
Marc:Okay, that was it.
Marc:That was me and Keith.
Marc:That was crazy.
Marc:That was crazy.
Marc:I got choked up.
Marc:Oh my god.
Marc:Whoo All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm a fun one.
Marc:Remember he said that I'm a fun one All right, so I hope that was that wasn't too embarrassing for me fucking me and Keith Richards man Come on
Marc:I got to play at Telecaster now.
Marc:You can go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.
Marc:Get a little JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:I get a little back on the back end there on the WTF blend.
Marc:They've been with us since the beginning.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Yeah, get on the mailing list.
Marc:Check the schedule.
Marc:I'll be in Australia in October.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:You guys.
Marc:You heard it.
Marc:You heard it.
Marc:I talked to Keith Richards.
Marc:I can't fucking believe it.
Marc:Now what do I do?
Marc:That's it.
Marc:People ask me, what are you going to do after Obama?
Marc:What am I going to do after Keith Richards?
guitar solo
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Guest:Boomer lives!