Episode 636 - Fred Armisen
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucks?
Marc:What the fucking avians?
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:It's my podcast.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Thank you for being there for me today on the show.
Marc:The elusive, but here you will hear him engaged and clear.
Marc:Mr. Fred Armisen is here today.
Marc:Fred is, what is he up to?
Marc:Oh, he's doing that show with Bill Hader, that documentary now.
Marc:It airs Thursday nights on IFC, the network where my show is.
Marc:I would like to thank the people who came out to see me in Dublin, Ireland, and in London, England.
Marc:It was in and out, man.
Marc:It was a quick trip, and right when I started to adjust to the eight-hour time difference, I turned around and came back, and now I'm still a little fucked up.
Marc:But it was worth it because I got to be honest with you.
Marc:And some of you already know this.
Marc:I get nervous when I leave the States, not because I'm afraid.
Marc:I just feel peculiar because I'm an American abroad and I don't feel confident with the strange snack foods and and strange driving habits.
Marc:You know, it's not a side of the road thing.
Marc:Well, maybe it is, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:Maybe it's the steering wheel in the wrong place, but it's not the wrong place.
Marc:It's a different place, but it's not the place that I'm used to.
Marc:And that makes me nervous and uncomfortable.
Marc:And it makes me assume that these people won't like me or understand me because they don't drive on the same side of the seat that I do, which is fucking stupid because people know me there in those places just as they do here.
Marc:So I fly.
Marc:I don't sleep on the plane, really, because I'm nervous.
Marc:I get to Dublin.
Marc:It's early in the morning.
Marc:And I get to the hotel.
Marc:I have not slept.
Marc:So I'm already feeling a little flurby, a little weird, a little tweaked.
Marc:And I get there, and I go immediately into the restaurant.
Marc:I stayed at the...
Marc:The Westbury Hotel in Dublin.
Marc:A lovely hotel.
Marc:And I went in.
Marc:Got the full fucking Irish breakfast.
Marc:Beans.
Marc:Rashers.
Marc:Black pudding.
Marc:The other pudding.
Marc:Eggs.
Marc:Toast.
Marc:Irish soda bread.
Marc:I just did it.
Marc:I did it all.
Marc:Shoved it all in my face.
Marc:Went up.
Marc:Just crashed for like three or four hours.
Marc:Then...
Marc:uh i am told that richard thompson who i interviewed last week who i love uh is playing at the same venue that i'm playing the night after at the vicar theater and would i like to go fuck yeah it doesn't matter if i only slept two hours in the last 24 and i'm out of my fucking mind and then there's always part of me like i just talked to that dude but is he gonna know me are we like hey what's going on the guy bren who runs the venue i say you think you get me backstage he's like what are you talking about yes i mean you're performing here tomorrow because i i interviewed richard i wonder if we can hang out or i could say hi
Marc:So I walk backstage.
Marc:I see Richard.
Marc:He's like, oh, how are you, Mark?
Marc:And I'm like, what's up, Richard?
Marc:He's like, that's your guitar.
Marc:He goes, yeah, it's one of them.
Marc:And I'm like, it looks nice.
Marc:So we talked, man.
Marc:We talked about five-string tuning.
Marc:He let me play his guitar a little bit.
Marc:We talked about the interview.
Marc:His daughter and her husband was playing in the rails.
Marc:They were opening for him.
Marc:And then out of nowhere, the bass player goes, I know this guy.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:It's Davey Farragher.
Marc:who used to hang out with my friend Greg over here when he was in Cracker.
Marc:Now he plays with Elvis' band, and Richard Thompson had just hired him on.
Marc:Like that day, they had barely rehearsed, but he's a fucking wizard.
Marc:So I'm hanging out with Davey and Richard, and then I go out into the audience, and I'm tripping because I'm sleepless.
Marc:And I'll tell you, man, Richard Thompson's the dude to watch if you're trippy, man.
Marc:He's fucking amazing.
Marc:What a wizard.
Marc:And the drummer, the fucking drummer, Jesus.
Marc:I believe his name was Michael Jerome.
Marc:Just a wizard.
Marc:The whole thing was fucking outstanding.
Marc:But then I started to fall asleep standing up.
Marc:I sat down and I was rocking in my seat and then I got up and I almost started falling asleep standing up.
Marc:So I had to go back to the hotel, crash out, just laid out for a
Marc:city or country necessarily i don't think it's intentional it's an island and i guess that happens i guess there's not a lot of people coming in more people going out probably the uh the the irish are good at dispersing i'll tell you that right now man the clans move around the world
Marc:but uh yeah but not not very diverse i think i visited the the one black area which is basically just a statue of phil linnet downtown and um but i walked around it was beautiful i love ireland i think it's beautiful i was nervous about the show but uh a local comic andrea farrell did an amazing job opening for me very funny and the audience was great the venue was amazing the vicar was amazing
Marc:It's a beautiful night of comedy, and it was amazing to be in Ireland.
Marc:And the next day, very early in the morning, got about five-hour sleep.
Marc:Didn't even get to say goodbye to Richard Thompson because I left early, but I think he's probably okay.
Marc:I flew to London.
Marc:Immediately, I did a bunch of radio interviews, and then I crashed for like three or four hours.
Marc:And I was nervous about London because this is a big room, South Bank Center.
Marc:But I packed out two shows.
Marc:I had a great time Thursday.
Marc:Like, listen to me.
Marc:What am I all excited?
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:The audiences were both, they were great in Dublin and in London.
Marc:And it was amazing.
Marc:I went to the Tate fucking gallery.
Marc:And I got my mind blown, the Tate Modern.
Marc:And I also had some amazing fucking Indian food.
Marc:You ever had a life-changing meal where you're like, I'm never going to be the same again?
Marc:I think the place is called Tayab's, T-A-Y-Y-A-B-S.
Marc:It was referred to me by one of the guys who works at the management agency, but man.
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:Sometimes restaurants, there's so much heart in it and there's some magical thing that some people can do with spices.
Marc:I just never tasted food like that.
Marc:It was fucking, and I can't even talk about it because I want to move there.
Marc:Not to London, to the restaurant.
Marc:I'd like to move to the restaurant.
Marc:I had some sort of pumpkin curry and something called dry meat and paratha.
Marc:It was astounding.
Marc:But the Tate Gallery, man, the Tate Gallery, I saw some shit.
Marc:I had a pretty amazing experience.
Marc:I love that space at the Tate Modern, but something happened to me.
Marc:Saw the Agnes Martin retrospective.
Marc:Beautiful, abstract, but very grid-like, organized.
Marc:Woman was trying to keep it together by laying it out on the canvas.
Marc:This is where it's held together.
Marc:This is where art makes sense.
Marc:This is where everything is at peace.
Marc:Keep it tight.
Marc:Brilliant shit.
Marc:Them walking around the regular collection.
Marc:They got a room full of Rothko's.
Marc:But not just Rothko's.
Marc:Rothko's I'd never fucking seen before.
Marc:And it's not like I've seen every Rothko, but I've seen a lot of Rothko's.
Marc:But these, and I'm a Rothko fan.
Marc:I don't know where you stand on it.
Marc:These were fucking astounding.
Marc:Apparently...
Marc:These were a bunch of panels.
Marc:They were about eight or nine, maybe even more.
Marc:And they were commissioned for the Four Seasons restaurant in the Seagram building in Midtown Manhattan.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It's got no connection to the hotel.
Marc:It's its own restaurant, fancy restaurant.
Marc:And apparently, and this is what I learned after the fact, that he reneged on the commission.
Marc:But my friend Sharon sent me a text after I talked about this.
Marc:She said that Rothko secretly resolved to create something that will ruin the appetite of every son of a bitch who ever eats in that pretentious dining room.
Marc:That's a quote that I don't know where she got it.
Marc:But man, they had these all in one room.
Marc:They're purple.
Marc:They're dark.
Marc:They're late period Rothko's.
Marc:They're much different than the earlier ones.
Marc:They're dimly lit.
Marc:And you sit in that room and you are just immersed in the elevated place.
Marc:purple darkness of Mark Rothko's brain.
Marc:It was one of the most amazing experiences I'd ever had with art.
Marc:I could not leave the room.
Marc:I left and I went back to just get into that transcendental doom that these canvases would just bathe you in.
Marc:It was fucking amazing.
Marc:So all in all, the experience in Europe was amazing.
Marc:Beautiful.
Marc:Dublin, beautiful city, beautiful people.
Marc:Saw Richard Thompson play guitar, did some good comedy, ate some good fish.
Marc:London, beautiful people, awesome shows.
Marc:Then he was a little bouncy sound wise, but that's okay.
Marc:It was okay.
Marc:We dealt with it.
Marc:My opener there was Jar with Regan.
Marc:He did a great job.
Marc:I met him in Edinburgh years before when I was unhappy and he remembered me being unhappy.
Marc:I was happy that we were both relatively happy and had some amazing Indian food.
Marc:Pumpkin curry, never experienced that before.
Marc:Between the pumpkin curry and being mind fucked by Mark Rothko's
Marc:and doing great shows.
Marc:It was an amazing international experience.
Marc:Did I mention Fred Armisen is on the show?
Marc:Well, we're going to talk to him right now.
Marc:It gets pretty personal.
Marc:Brace yourselves.
Guest:When you had Mike Watt on, that was like my sweet spot.
Guest:Was that crazy?
Guest:What a sweet... Yeah, and he kept talking, which was great.
Guest:That's what he does.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going on about the Minuteman.
Guest:Did you love that band?
Guest:I loved that band, and I loved Firehose.
Guest:I love Firehose.
Guest:I always did.
Guest:I was in that whatever that generation would be called where- Me too.
Guest:I didn't live in LA, so I missed the original version of The Minutemen.
Guest:The Minutemen, me too.
Guest:So I was like, okay, well, I know about The Minutemen, but here's Firehose for me.
Marc:Right, Dave Cross introduced me to Firehose when we were back in Boston.
Marc:So what was that like?
Guest:late 80s yeah and i went to see him yeah me too yeah and and because mike seemed like the sort of leader of the band that was the entertainment i was like i liked watching this they were all great yeah all three of them but seeing the bass player as leader as the general or whatever was i was on board i saw them so many times i was so on board not since thin lizzy
Marc:has the bass player yeah bin those guys have so many records out that i didn't know about is that thin lizzie yeah they're reissuing these records like a shitload of records yeah yeah that was another really anomaly of music just where they're from and the sound the sound i didn't i never was into them like i knew the hits when i was a young really young you know
Marc:But I'm just starting to get into it.
Marc:I'm late to the party with fucking everything.
Guest:But that's what's fun about being alive is being late to the party.
Guest:Music especially.
Guest:That's the best thing.
Guest:Because now you can go backwards.
Guest:You don't have to just wait for everything that's coming out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I've been going backwards to Gordon Lightfoot.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Brand new to me.
Guest:Or whatever in the last few years.
Guest:If I Could Read Your Mind, that stuff?
Guest:Which is an incredibly beautiful song.
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:And moving.
Marc:There's no better song than that.
Guest:Harry Nilsson, you know, a little bit of that.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:I just went and bought all his fucking records.
Marc:Yeah, everything.
Marc:Like all of them.
Guest:And also, like where, why wasn't, why didn't I hear these before?
Guest:Why didn't I know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then did you watch that Harry Nilsson doc?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That was fucking mind-blowing.
Marc:It's incredible.
Guest:Because he lived a long time.
Guest:Yes, he did.
Guest:And I didn't know that.
Guest:I thought, they describe his life so much as a tragedy that my assumption is like, he must have, you know, OD'd or something.
Guest:Not the case.
Marc:The tragedy was he died and lived.
Marc:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's the worst kind of tragedy with like a lot.
Marc:It happens to musicians, man.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:They, you know, but he couldn't even go through the paces.
Marc:It didn't seem you so compelled to make original music.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you just see these zombies playing their catalog.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Rough, man.
Yeah.
Guest:it's rough i don't know what it's like for them yeah like i imagine there's like the the having to deal with having to make ends meet yeah sure uh not knowing exactly who you are where you're going but that's like um that's a tricky thing i'm still trying to like figure out what that world is all about that circuit oh really music of people who uh lived more in the past but still continue to go out you know what i've learned
Marc:honestly, by going to a Rolling Stones concert for the first time in 35 years, they're fucking entertainers.
Marc:They like to entertain.
Marc:They like when people like their shit.
Marc:I don't think everyone's driven by that sort of like, God, fuck, why haven't I written a song?
Marc:Maybe they've written two, but I imagine for somebody like Huey Lewis, who probably doesn't even need the bread to go out and play stuff from the sports record to a bunch of people going, yeah!
Guest:it must be great sure because all there is is that room yeah so if they're you know however many people there and they're into it it's a really good agreement they love it and they love to play it we're all in good shape right because I think the Stones is a really good example of that they can't need the money no
Marc:So they do it because they love it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest:And that's what they are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're the fucking Rolling Stones.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:You know, Charlie Watts is a drummer.
Guest:That's his job is to be Charlie Watts.
Guest:Exactly.
Exactly.
Guest:And they've kept their office intact.
Guest:Like Charlie Watts' kit is his kit.
Guest:There's nothing else that needs to be.
Guest:He sets up his own kit.
Marc:I talked to somebody who saw him do one of his jazz gigs at the Blue Note in New York.
Marc:And he got there before in between bands.
Marc:And Charlie was setting up his own drums.
Marc:that's pretty great that's not someone who loves to play that's great you're drum too right i'm a drummer yeah you know who i talked to who gave me a little sort of window into uh your life yeah albini oh he's he is uh that's a really great person that's a great person to talk it's like what so he did this he did oh great i haven't put it up yet and he said he used to see you around the music scene yes before you did comedy
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He's one of my oldest friends.
Guest:I mean, just from that whole Chicago scene.
Guest:But where were you born?
Guest:Well, I'm originally from New York.
Guest:New York City?
Guest:Long Island.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So I grew up on Long Island, a little bit in Brazil.
Guest:I lived in Rio de Janeiro, like second and third.
Guest:Why?
Guest:How'd that happen?
Guest:My dad worked for IBM.
Guest:So what kind of, how many brothers and sisters you got?
Guest:I have a younger sister, but then I have an older half-brother who is German.
Guest:So my father had a son- A marriage before?
Guest:No, just a relationship.
Guest:He had a son in East Germany.
Guest:And then he came to the States.
Guest:And then my parents went to school in Mississippi.
Guest:And that's where I was born.
Guest:They met in Mississippi?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:They were both foreign students.
Guest:Where are they from?
Guest:My mom's Venezuelan and my dad's German.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Have you met your German half-brother?
Guest:Oh, I have.
Guest:And he's in Armisen?
Guest:No, Fettig.
Guest:So he's from his mother's name.
Guest:And he's raised in what was communist Germany.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And that's where your father was from, East Germany.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So he grew up with someone who was brought up in communism, basically, give or take.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So my father luckily left Germany in the early 60s.
Guest:So he was away from that.
Guest:He was able to get up.
Guest:Oh, it didn't go up yet.
Guest:This is before the wall went up.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:The in-between time.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So did he always have a relationship with that other son?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, so it's cool.
Guest:But more pen-pally because you couldn't go in and out that easily.
Guest:Right.
Guest:How old were you when you met him?
Guest:I was a junior in high school or a senior in high school, and that was the first time I'd met him.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And there were some similarities.
Guest:It says a lot about genetics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was into music, and he liked a lot of Latin music.
Guest:It was just very strange.
Guest:We don't really look alike, but it was a good experiment.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you stay in touch?
Guest:We stay in touch.
Guest:We email each other once in a while.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I haven't seen him that much.
Marc:Bizarre, right?
Marc:That must have been wild.
Marc:Did you learn about it in junior high or did you always know?
Guest:It was always in the air.
Guest:So it's sort of like, hey, there's that brother and that's your half brother in Germany.
Guest:But East Germany was hardcore.
Guest:That's a hardcore, they really, communism, I think it was more German than German.
Guest:They really did it.
Guest:East Berlin really did it up with the logos and all that stuff.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I visited East Berlin.
Guest:Logos, yeah.
Guest:Oh, they love it.
Guest:Well, yeah, it was totalitarian in a way, right?
Guest:Yeah, and I went when it was East Berlin.
Guest:I got this visa to go in, and they had so many stamps for the passports.
Guest:The organization of it worked so well for them.
Guest:And it was a really gray place.
Guest:It was just a very, like, you could sense the sort of, it was just gray.
Guest:Control?
Guest:A lot of control.
Guest:Gray place, not great place.
Guest:No, no, gray.
Guest:Gray, right.
Guest:I'm saying gray.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just kind of sort of, I would say almost like there's a dullness to it all.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:All across.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You just picture people walking with their head down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, and they stopped me a lot.
Guest:I went camping with my brother and there was a lot of like, will you stop?
Guest:Show me your passport.
Guest:We know where you're from.
Guest:They would read my passport back to me.
Marc:you are fred armison you are from you know new york and um yeah i'll never forget it it was i wonder what kind of mind fuck that is like we know who you are fred armison we know you are from new york yeah super paranoid super uh but then you know then it all just ended so right that must have been a hell of a day yeah so you grew up with a venezuelan mom yes
Guest:good food german and venezuelan food or what great food no no uh i don't know why i make that assumption only because i don't know what it is and it seems exotic to me it's just there's a lot like like chicken and rice and like raisins and like weird you know banana leaf you know a lot of cornmeal wrapped stuff so it's fine but i it's not what i would say like hey we had great food
Guest:i wasn't like oh it wasn't like growing up um you know in an italian family right what part of long island valley stream i don't even know what what does that mean it's like just think picture long island and right outside of like queens new york oh right okay right there and they've worked for ibm yeah my dad worked upstate and i uh in uh poughkeepsie or white plains uh-huh he commuted he commuted wow and then you were in brazil
Guest:we did two years in brazil how old were you uh second and third grade oh so not enough to have fun necessarily no but enough to like you know see brazil and learn what it was like and to hear brazilian music which is still some of my favorite music you know samba music yeah um so and i think the moving around you did a samba character didn't you kind of
Guest:I've done some Brazilian characters and stuff playing music and some Bossa Nova and stuff.
Guest:So I've done a little bit of it.
Guest:So that was a good experience, I think.
Guest:But at the time, I didn't think so because I was a kid.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:You just want to be home when you're a kid.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And your folks are still together?
Guest:They're not together.
Marc:Oh, when did that happen?
Guest:My dad left when I must have been 20 or so, maybe 19.
Marc:So you're out of the woods.
Marc:You could understand it as a grownup.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Now I can understand it.
Guest:And even then I was very disconnected from it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I feel bad because I should have been more connected and helpful, but I was very, Hey, I'm not in the house anymore.
Guest:So that's your problem.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whatever you got to do pops.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So where did you go?
Marc:So after high school, where did you go?
Marc:Where did you move?
Guest:I went to college in New York City.
Guest:Where?
Guest:To School of Visual Arts.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I went a couple years.
Guest:Studying what?
Guest:Film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I really went to play music.
Guest:When did you start doing that?
Guest:I've been playing music since I was like 10 or something.
Guest:Drumming?
Guest:Drumming and guitar playing.
Guest:But mostly drumming.
Guest:That's like what I really wanted to do most.
Guest:Like who were your favorite drummers as a kid?
Guest:Keith Moon.
Guest:And as I got older into my preteen years, Alan Myers, Stuart Copeland, Topper Heaton from The Clash, Paul Cook, and then Dave Barbarossa from Bow Wow Wow.
Guest:I really loved.
Guest:It was all Tim Bollies.
Marc:Dunk, dunk, dunk.
Guest:yeah yeah yeah constant like uh very oh yeah but he did use those yeah yeah yeah love those but um but keith moon was definitely like i i really wanted to eventually become like a you know keith moon just the fact that he was so visual and right that and he was great out of control yeah yeah and you played in bands in high school yeah i played in some hardcore punk bands and that was your love the hardcore punk
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As soon as punk came around for me, and I think, I guess for you too, it's like, you know, I felt a little late, you know, like it already happened in England and New York.
Guest:But to me as a suburban Long Island kid, it was like, I still wanted to be in London.
Guest:Like I lived that whole 1977, even though it was past that.
Marc:The CBGB stuff and the London stuff.
Guest:And then all the London stuff.
Guest:I wanted to be the Damned and the Clash and all that stuff.
Guest:And I guess Devo too.
Guest:So I just loved all that stuff.
Guest:And still do.
Guest:That part has never died in me.
Marc:And with the bands, did you do the circuit?
Marc:Did you open for big punk bands?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:We were just like a local punk hardcore band.
Guest:Me and my friend Kenny Young.
Guest:Still friends with him?
Yeah.
Guest:No, he died about a year ago.
Guest:He had some troubles in his life.
Guest:It was a really sad thing because you really represented my high school years to me.
Marc:My best friend from high school died too.
Guest:Yeah, it's a hard thing.
Marc:He never got out of town or...
Guest:He traveled, but he just had, you know, he had problems.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Which eventually, I think also, though, his death gave him peace.
Guest:As much of a cliche as that is, I'm very glad that he doesn't, he really lived through hell.
Guest:He would, Kenny would tell me, he would like laugh and tell me about all the hospitals he'd go in and like people trying to get him into rehab.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A lot of stuff that was like...
Guest:It sounds like the worst kind of existence.
Marc:It's a tough war to lose, that addiction thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's weird.
Marc:When you get our age, you're like, you're 48.
Marc:Is that what you said?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I'm 51.
Marc:You start to see it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:People who...
Guest:I'm having some allergies, by the way.
Guest:I am not weeping.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Do you have cat allergies?
Marc:They don't come out here.
Guest:I love cats very, very much.
Guest:But I get allergic sometimes to new cats.
Guest:Like if there's a new cat in my life, I get allergic.
Marc:Well, this shouldn't be too bad out here.
Marc:If it gets bad, I can put on that air purifier over there.
Guest:No, no, I'm good.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you didn't make any records or really play?
Guest:No, no, and it wasn't until I was in, I moved to Chicago that I joined a band and we started making more music.
Marc:But the School for Visual Arts, you wanted to do music, but what'd you learn there?
Marc:Did you make film?
Guest:I did a little bit and I learned about film, but I think the real reason I went was to, um, meet band members.
Guest:Like that was like, that was a common, it was a common knowledge too.
Guest:Like if you want to be in a band, you go to art school.
Guest:Like the talking heads and.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like, that's the place.
Guest:Or even like, I mean, so many bands came from that.
Guest:From art school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So to me, that was like, that's, that was the place to go.
Marc:So that's why you went.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you did the whole time?
Marc:You graduated?
Marc:No, I did not graduate.
Guest:I did like two and a half years or something.
Marc:And then what made you go to Chicago?
Guest:I met this guy named Damon, who I thought looked really cool and was into punk too.
Guest:And I was like, let's put a band together.
Guest:So we played a little bit.
Guest:And then he was like, I have to go to Chicago to go to art school there.
Guest:And I just followed him.
Guest:I was like, let's keep the band going.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:And I moved to Chicago.
Guest:I was there for quite a long time, like 10 years.
Marc:And did the relationship with him last?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I'm still friends with him now.
Guest:And he's not dead.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:We're good friends now.
Guest:And he does a lot of artwork for Portlandia.
Guest:And he is a big figure in my life.
Guest:so you're in chicago and you're playing in what's the band called trench mouth trench mouth yeah oh i've heard of that maybe i've heard of it because of you yeah i'm sure uh you didn't make records or you did we did we toured a lot we toured all the time we toured and we played in europe a little bit and we played how many albums you put out
Guest:four or five or something really yeah so you were a punk band yeah and and you were a known punk band in in the punk world uh-huh you know and when you toured did you get to work with other music like did you open for bands you loved and that kind of oh yeah we we you know i met we played with um fugazi a couple times the nation of ulysses and candy machine a lot of dc bands and um
Guest:We had a really great time.
Guest:That's where I learned more about drumming and entertainment and punk and this country, just traveling around, getting to know the Midwest.
Guest:And also, Damon would play great tapes and stuff in the van.
Guest:So I got to learn about dub music and reggae and stuff and punk.
Guest:So we were very unsuccessful in many ways.
Guest:We saw bands sort of zip by us and become very popular.
Marc:Were you singing or just playing drums?
Guest:Just playing drums.
Guest:And talking a lot.
Guest:I would talk.
Guest:Many bands just sort of became more and more famous and we were kind of at the same level for many years.
Guest:And I think that like, you know, I'm not, I don't look back at the music and think like, oh, we were great.
Guest:Or like, I don't understand why.
Guest:I very much understand why we weren't big.
Guest:And I'm glad.
Guest:I mean, here I am.
Guest:You know, I feel like my life is very good.
Guest:So those things just led to me being here.
Yeah.
Marc:No, yeah, absolutely, but like Chicago at that time, having spoken to Steve Albini, it was a very sort of insulated and vibrant and creative punk rock scene.
Guest:Yeah, there were studios everywhere, record labels, it was a very like, and really great musicians.
Guest:There were bands like Tortoise and Jesus Lizard, really great musicians, and Steve, obviously.
Guest:Yeah, and you were just hanging around and playing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hanging around and playing.
Guest:And, you know, I had jobs and stuff, but it was like a really nice scene.
Guest:I really liked it.
Marc:Like where'd you work?
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:In many cafes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Many.
Guest:All over town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you know Chicago?
Guest:A little.
Guest:When we first walked into your studio here, we were talking a little bit, you and I. We've known each other a while.
Guest:I was wondering how you operate now that your show is so successful.
Guest:Are you still able to engage with people?
Guest:Are you still interested in it?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I look forward to it.
Marc:I was talking to somebody else about it.
Marc:For me, it's still a conversation.
Marc:It becomes sort of a job to a degree, but the truth of the matter is it's still me sitting down talking to a guy or a woman about their life or about whatever comes up.
Marc:So there's still that nourishment of that.
Marc:And that has not gotten boring or I don't look at it as a chore because, you know, I'm dictating, you know, the tone of the show sort of can change with any individual.
Marc:You know, I'm not, you know, I don't have to do this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But some people do have to do things.
Marc:No, I mean, look, we put a show up twice a week, but it's my show.
Marc:I don't have any bosses.
Marc:It's very free form.
Marc:So as interested as I am in any individual, that compels the conversation.
Marc:So it's still like that.
Marc:I may get nervous about what the fuck am I going to talk to that guy about.
Marc:Do you get nervous?
Marc:Yeah, because I don't always know how it's going to go or where it's going to go or what I want to know or who they really are.
Marc:You make assumptions about people all the time.
Marc:And a lot of the people I talk to have public profiles, so I make assumptions that I've decided.
Marc:And then I find out that I'm wrong most of the time.
Marc:But I also don't always know what I'm looking for other than a conversation.
Marc:So it's still compelling in that way.
Marc:You know, I get very involved in people's emotional narrative.
Marc:So that's an incredible gift.
Marc:So in that way, I don't get that tired of it or I don't, you know, the success of it.
Marc:Sometimes I'm like, ugh.
Marc:I gotta talk to five people this week.
Marc:If I get five or six people in a week, it's a little taxing.
Marc:I don't know how people who do, I don't consider this therapy, but a therapist who has to do four or five a day and just sit there and engage, but I think they figure out a way not to engage.
Marc:I can't really do that here.
Marc:I think therapists, if they've been at it long enough, can kind of just fake it.
Guest:yeah no but i now that i'm sitting here i see that you're right into it yeah you know and also when i hear the show i could i could hear it but i just didn't know i was like you know well you haven't done the show we did it live once right and my uh like you're one of these guys who i i don't know that that like there's part of me that's sort of like well what's what is that guy
Marc:Where the hell's he come from?
Marc:What the hell, what's going on in there?
Marc:Because I think that because of somebody who's so gifted at doing characters so thoroughly, there's part of you that's sort of like, what's real Fred, what's that about?
Marc:What went wrong there?
Marc:What's he running from, right?
Marc:Do you get that a lot?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I've heard that if I'm meeting someone for the first time.
Guest:So sure, yeah.
Marc:Do you feel a distance from yourself?
Marc:I mean, do you think that you're genuine or do you find that you're sort of darting around emotionally?
Guest:No, I feel like I'm genuine in my most private moments.
Marc:By yourself?
Guest:Well, meaning I feel like I have an honest relationship with myself, which is its own feat, you know?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:but uh i think that um as i've gone through life when uh i get sort of reactions from other people as to the way that i am that's when i i feel kind of surprised and i go oh okay i hadn't thought of that or i didn't see things that way right so um i
Guest:So I think that just kind of like over the years changes little by little, meaning that I'll sort of see things in a different version than what I remembered and then go, oh, okay, this is where I made some mistakes or this is where, oh, I hadn't thought of that before.
Marc:But you're comfortable with yourself.
Guest:Yes, I'm comfortable with myself, but I'm always... I still want to get better.
Marc:Right, personally.
Guest:Yeah, I'm...
Guest:the evidence to me is that my friends i feel very i have long relationships with my friends yeah and they make me feel like uh i'm okay and then right i can keep going um but uh keep going in in life yeah yeah because i even though i'm 48 i still feel like i can still try to to to get better at being a person but do you get depressed i don't get depressed oh okay
Guest:I don't know if that's good or bad.
Guest:Because I'm an optimist and I just, I do feel like I run through life with a sort of impatience.
Guest:Just, you know, clawing away and just like really fighting to get to the next thing.
Guest:That's creatively too.
Guest:Creatively, yeah.
Guest:I feel like in my work life,
Guest:is where I have to have the best handle on things.
Guest:That is the only place, my friends and work, where I can do a good job.
Marc:How did you make a transition?
Marc:When did you realize that comedy was something?
Marc:Because I think the first time I met you really in person, you were doing Saddam Hussein, the guitar Saddam.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:That was the first time I met you in person.
Marc:We were on the same show.
Guest:I had seen you before that.
Guest:I'd seen you live.
Guest:I was at that Largo show where you got into a fight with someone.
Guest:And I had just moved to LA from Chicago.
Guest:And that was one of my first experiences.
Guest:I was alone.
Guest:And I was told, hey, you've got to go to Largo.
Guest:That's where the scene is happening.
Guest:That's where interesting comedy is happening.
Guest:And I saw like...
Guest:Ron Lynch and Karen Kilgareff, maybe Jimmy Pardo, maybe Paul F. Tompkins.
Marc:Paul was definitely on that show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was hosting it that night.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I was the last act.
Guest:Because his stand-up was, he came out and he was like, I am the host because I am the best.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:And then you were last and then you got into that altercation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:And it was a good introduction.
Guest:I was like, this is a real scene, you know?
Guest:Guy just got tackled.
Marc:Remember, it was a weird night because Vincent D'Onofrio was there for some reason.
Marc:Well, that I don't remember.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the producer and guitar player for Foreigner.
Marc:The band was there.
Marc:How would I have known that?
Marc:You wouldn't know that.
Guest:I knew it, but I didn't know you.
Guest:And I also didn't know who was who.
Guest:I was like, here's Marc Maron.
Guest:I was like, here's another guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was all new to me.
Guest:And everyone scrambled.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you're doing music.
Guest:So I did music.
Guest:And then I went to South by Southwest.
Guest:I performed at this, I was playing drums for some bands in 1998.
Guest:What bands?
Guest:John Lankford, Sally Timms, The Skull Orchard.
Marc:You were playing drums for all of them?
Guest:yeah they were just they were just like hey we play drums on this one little set that we're doing it was really easy but then there were all these like you know south by southwest is like it has all those like talks and like uh back then it was a little smaller yeah thank you it was still an event yeah and i was so uh i think bitter about where i was in music you were
Guest:I was sort of like, wow, the whole catalog to what you could do there was all like how you can make it in the music biz and getting played on the radio.
Guest:So I just thought that I would go and just videotape myself or my girlfriend at the time.
Guest:Who was that?
Guest:Wife at the time, Sally Timms.
Guest:When did you get married?
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:The first one.
Guest:First one was like 1996.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:I must have been just in my early 30s, turning 30.
Guest:Yeah, I got married that time.
Guest:And so she had the camera, and then I just interviewed bands as different characters, right?
Guest:So like as a German guy, as a mentally disabled person, as a blind person.
Guest:And then a friend of mine- And they didn't know.
Guest:No, some of them knew.
Guest:Steve Albini was one of them.
Guest:He knew I was going to do something.
Guest:And then this tape about South by Southwest, someone edited it and it became a sort of thing that I could play at clubs.
Guest:I gave it to people.
Guest:It got around.
Marc:The old school viral.
Guest:Yeah, Pony Express days.
Guest:I started showing this at clubs that I'd performed at with Trenchmouth and I was getting more press and more people were turning out for that than for playing with the band.
Marc:For the video.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all I had to do was sort of show up and play this tape.
Guest:So I found a real drive to keep doing it.
Guest:And I think in that moment... To do the interviews.
Guest:To do comedy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:People would talk about this videotape, but all of a sudden, that became... Since that day, that became my job.
Guest:That became doing more and more comedy.
Guest:One thing led to another, and then to something else, and then to something else.
Marc:Well, when did you start doing it live?
Guest:I...
Guest:Started doing it for this channel called HBO Zone.
Guest:These little tapes, these little interstitial tapes.
Guest:Then there was a place called the Cornelia Street Cafe in New York.
Guest:I know that place.
Guest:Is it downstairs?
Guest:Yeah, they were doing some shows and I was like, oh, I have an idea for something.
Marc:That weird thin room.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I saw this self-defense expert on Oprah.
Guest:Can I do it in a self-defense performance?
Guest:And then right there, I think that's where I started doing characters on stage as a as an act.
Marc:What was the angle on the self-defense guy?
Guest:that he gave misinformation.
Guest:Because when I saw the original self-defense guy, it's all these things, how to protect your purse and your wallet and how to walk down the street, things that people can't naturally do.
Guest:The idea of this is what's right is crazy.
Guest:There's no way you can memorize all these things.
Guest:So from that, I just thought, I'll do one of those guys.
Guest:And I just kind of kept doing that.
Marc:How'd you get back to New York though?
Marc:You were in Chicago.
Marc:How'd you get to Cornelia Street?
Guest:I was spending time there because I was playing drums for Blue Man Group and part of the training for it.
Guest:The original Blue Man Group?
Guest:Yeah, but they had a franchise in Chicago.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They had a Chicago show.
Guest:Trenchmouth had broken up and I was playing drums for the Chicago Blue Man Group.
Guest:You didn't look at them and go like, I need to do some of that.
Guest:You know, I'll tell you something.
Guest:I learned a lot.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:That people want to be entertained.
Guest:This Chicago show.
Guest:I saw Blue Man Group.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a very entertaining show.
Guest:It's pure entertainment.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:So, you know, there's a band.
Guest:Did you like the guys?
Guest:They were great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Real pros, right?
Guest:Real pros, kind of acrobat, athletic performers.
Guest:But I played the drums in the band.
Guest:My first paycheck in entertainment, you know what I mean?
Guest:I got paid $100 a show.
Guest:There were different drummers, and whenever I played a show, $100 was like a million dollars to me.
Marc:And that's sort of an intense thing because the drum goes all through it.
Marc:All the way through.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But being in the Chicago show, I would look at the audience and every night people would show up.
Guest:And there was this lesson of don't overthink it.
Guest:It doesn't have to be such a... It could just be pure entertainment.
Guest:And every night people would show up and buy a ticket.
Guest:And it really...
Guest:uh lightened things up for me like stop you know when i was in a punk band it was so mathematical and like we got out you know out red hot chili peppers the red hot chili peppers we can't be hacked we can't be hacks and what that's not you know that's not an original sound like right you're right you sort of kill yourself with this like you just stomp all over like right any creativity yeah so blue man group taught me like calm down yeah just
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:Relax.
Guest:Lighten up a little.
Guest:Lighten up.
Guest:You know, we were painted different colors and stuff.
Guest:Anyway, so that's why I was in New York.
Guest:I was training for that.
Guest:And then that was just something I thought I would do.
Guest:You were training for Blue Man Group.
Guest:Yeah, because the original group is in New York.
Guest:So I learned the drum parts for that in New York.
Guest:So you auditioned for that?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:So you were like working at a cafe or something doing your punk band.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And you saw that they were auditioning for Blue Man Group.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you went and you sat in front in a room, probably a bright room with a few guys and a drunk kid.
Guest:We jammed.
Guest:We all jammed.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:yeah we all jammed and then uh i just kept playing these parts and then next thing i knew i had this incredible job and they flew to new york and then you were just sort of a a guy uh who was the uh one of the go-to drummers for blue man yes they rotated how many rotated three uh sets of bands so okay there's like a full-time guy and i was like one of the fill-ins and then then around december there'd be many shows and then in the summer a little fewer but it was so you did that for a while
Guest:two years something in there drumming for blue man group yeah for two years yeah something in there and they'd paint you blue no like red and green like so there was a black light and it was a skeletal yeah i had a skeletal figure on my shirt yeah did you like it i loved it it was great it was great it was like uh it was felt just right
Guest:uh-huh so when you went to new york to to learn the drum parts you were just wandering around into the cornelia street i mean uh no um the wife or girlfriend of one of the blue men ran this show at the cornelia street it was a variety show it was a variety show uh-huh susan like she was like do you want to do something on the show and that's just and you'd never done stand-up or any nothing no no no no never so you just did you improvise it
Guest:No, I thought it out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And eventually that character, the self-defense character, as the years went and I did it at Largo, I would do it in different places.
Guest:I did it in Chicago and I met Zach Galifianakis and he told Lisa Langang, you should book him at Largo.
Guest:And that's how I ended up doing stuff at Largo through Lisa.
Marc:And it was the self-defense guy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that was the first time I was on a network TV.
Guest:So I did that on Conan.
Guest:The self-defense guy.
Guest:That self-defense guy, yeah.
Guest:And so it kind of came... At the time at Largo, if you had been going to shows, apparently you didn't go see me when I was there.
Marc:I'm trying to remember.
Marc:No.
Marc:Because when that happened, though, when you saw me get hit, I wasn't living out here.
Marc:I lived out here for a year in the late 80s and was primarily just at the comedy store being a doorman.
Marc:And I didn't really move back to LA until 2002.
Marc:So I was just here for a week or two weeks.
Guest:Oh, I thought you were like an LA guy.
Marc:No, New York.
Marc:Always New York.
Marc:I was the other coast.
Marc:I was the Luna guy.
Marc:Luna Lounge.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:I remember Luna Lounge.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, so I was just in and out.
Marc:So I wouldn't have seen you.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you, I was, I mean, I was kind of making, I mean, I wasn't, no, no, no, no, but it's true because like, I missed that chunk of, you know, your pre SNL performance time because like, you know, you met Zach in Chicago.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Doing your bit.
Marc:Were you doing it before bands or how did it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes before bands, before like, um, Jeff Tweedy or Wilco or something.
Guest:You're friends with them.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:I've known them a long time.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I used to work for Jeff's wife, Susan, Sue Miller.
Marc:You knew them when they were Uncle Tupelo?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Also, when Jeff was doing some solo stuff.
Marc:But you knew that band, the Uncle Tupelo band?
Guest:Yeah, I knew Jeff.
Guest:I didn't know the rest of them.
Guest:But didn't they start somewhere else, or were they always Chicago?
Guest:They were in southern or middle Illinois.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Marc:So you knew them when that band broke up?
Guest:Yeah, that's when he started, when he was with Sue.
Guest:And I would open for them sometimes.
Marc:And you do how many characters?
Guest:Just one.
Guest:I would do Ferricito, the Latin timbali player.
Guest:Like a Tito Puente kind of guy.
Guest:Yeah, I remember that guy.
Guest:And nobody knew who I was, and they did not like it when I was opening.
Marc:So I think that's specifically Kaufman-esque.
Marc:in a way, like Andy Kaufman.
Marc:No one said this is a comedy act.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I wanted to make it seem real.
Guest:I wanted to make it seem like, oh, there's this Latin guy.
Guest:That Jeff likes.
Guest:That Jeff likes, and for some reason, they've had him on this show.
Guest:So I started doing that, and I did that a whole bunch of times.
Guest:And how often did people just be like, ugh.
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:They were so upset that they actually didn't boo or anything.
Guest:They were just silent as in, let's let this guy get through this.
Guest:And you're just like overly happy and committed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can really play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do some jokes that I think I ripped off completely from Tito Puente.
Yeah.
Guest:And I had the timbales up there.
Guest:And then people were just, in their own way, very polite of like, let's just, this will end at some point.
Marc:Well, you would think Tweedy would have a fairly sensitive, respectful crew.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:So it was the right crowd.
Marc:You didn't get any meatheads.
Guest:No, it was more, exactly.
Guest:It was more sort of confusion and forgiveness.
Guest:Like, let's just, you know, he's almost done.
Marc:And you like that?
Guest:You like that reaction?
Guest:I liked it because, you know, I hadn't been doing it for very long.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So for me, any excuse to go up and do something, to me, it was a huge, it was a feat.
Guest:It was a very like, wow, I'm actually, I'm no longer in a band.
Guest:Now I'm going in front of people and this is what I'm doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you did that first one at Cornelia Street, and I imagine you got a laughs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you killed.
Marc:Did you realize at that moment, like, oh, shit, this is...
Marc:This is where it's at for me.
Guest:It was an immediate feeling.
Guest:Even the amount of time, I must have been out there, maybe five minutes or so.
Guest:And that felt like the right amount of time to be out there.
Guest:Everything about it, just the first performance was like, this is what I would like to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And because you can do whatever the fuck you want.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it can be confusing.
Guest:It could be whatever it is.
Guest:And it's OK because they didn't have like, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It wasn't a stand up comedy venue.
Marc:So, well, that's the amazing thing.
Marc:I think also about stand up to a degree is that you really decide the context is whatever it is.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You do whatever you, you know, just you should be funny, but you can do it however you want.
Guest:And I also had nothing to lose.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, because it just didn't matter that much.
Guest:I was like, I've gotten this far.
Guest:This is, you know, this is huge for me.
Guest:So how'd you meet Zach?
Guest:Zach was on a Chicago show that I did.
Guest:I think it was Chicago Comedy Festival or something.
Guest:And he was on the same show.
Guest:One of the first Chicago Comedy Festival?
Guest:One of those, yeah.
Marc:That was a chaotic bit of business.
Marc:I think, you know, I guess.
Marc:I think I did the first one.
Marc:yeah it was 99 it was a lot smaller this must have been 2000 or 2001 i'm gonna say 2001 maybe uh-huh um 2000 right it was run by a guy when i did it because i got sober right after that 98 or 99 and i think they took it away from him like i think he lost hold of it and then they started doing it a little more organized yeah and that's where you met zach
Guest:That's where I met Zach.
Guest:And then he was really helpful.
Guest:He talked to Lisa Lion King.
Marc:That makes sense to me, him respecting the uniqueness of what you were doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's a like-minded person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was very helpful.
Guest:Nick Swartzen, too, when I was at Largo, he was very helpful in hooking me up with agents and all that stuff.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So on Zach's word, you came out to L.A.
Guest:?
Guest:I might have already been living in LA, but I think Zach was the one who connected me with Lisa Langang.
Marc:So you moved out because of HBO Zone.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You were like, this is the thing.
Marc:And you were doing the characters.
Guest:I was doing the characters and I felt like I didn't have to live anywhere else, but I love LA.
Guest:I just have always wanted to live in LA.
Marc:And how are your parents feeling about this?
Guest:They're very proud.
Marc:Oh yeah?
Guest:They're very, yes.
Marc:They were excited that you were excited?
Guest:yes at first they were confused they didn't know what what this was that was happening and the band thing was very i think sort of a disappointment scary to them yes yeah well you know how do you explain to them you know they just think you're not gonna it's not gonna work out yeah they're worried usually is what happens with band parents and understandable the older i get the more i go oh i get of course they're worried yeah right yeah also the amount of convincing how to do
Guest:no mom i'm you know i'm touring yeah yeah what does that mean yeah all right so you come to la you do an hbo zone you do largo schwartzen sets you up with some representation and then so all of us already i'm just doing comedy music is already in the past right and bob odenkirk saw me at largo so we're talking 2002 nope one
Guest:So pre-9-11, he put me on a pilot that he did called Next.
Guest:I became friendly with him.
Guest:And then from there, I was able to have enough tape and stuff to start applying to SNL or whatever.
Marc:So that was the goal from that point early on.
Marc:You were like, that's the destination.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I had a manager at the time who was like, hey, we just put Seth Meyers on SNL.
Guest:And I was like, I remember them saying, do you want to be on?
Guest:I was like, what are you talking, of course I want to be on.
Guest:Now, where does the first- First of all, are you happy with this?
Guest:Are you happy with this interview so far?
Marc:Yeah, I love that you were a drummer for Blue Man Group.
Marc:Oh, you didn't know it?
Marc:I didn't know it.
Marc:Why, does everyone know that?
Marc:I think people in their own ego think everyone knows everything.
Marc:Oh, but obviously you've talked about it.
Marc:But no, I like talking to you.
Marc:I didn't know how it was going to go.
Marc:But you kind of move through the life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you tell, they say Seth Meyers.
Marc:We just got Seth Meyers on.
Marc:It's 2001.
Marc:Do you want to be on SNL?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think the next year that I started, they sent a tape to Marcy Klein at SNL.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of what?
Guest:Of me doing those characters, you know, Felicito and all that stuff.
Guest:Stuff from being on Conan and also from being on Bob Odenkirk's show next.
Marc:Now, where's the first wife in this?
Marc:Is that done?
Marc:That's done.
Marc:How long did that last?
Guest:Well, a couple of years we were together and then we stayed married for a while.
Guest:But I did it long distance and we were friends.
Guest:It was not friendly for a while and then it was friendly.
Guest:How long were you married?
Guest:I would say...
Guest:We were in a coupledom for maybe two years or so.
Guest:But then we stayed married.
Guest:So we broke up.
Guest:But we remained married for a while until we could sort out all the divorce stuff later on.
Guest:So it was when I was in SNL that we finally sorted out all the divorce stuff.
Marc:Was it bad?
Guest:Initially it was, it was bad, but then it became not bad.
Marc:She's still a musician.
Guest:She's still a musician.
Guest:She sings with the Mekons.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:So she's, she's British.
Guest:She's a great singer.
Guest:And you guys are okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ish.
Guest:You know, you know, those things, it's horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's yeah.
Guest:You, I,
Marc:I don't talk to you either.
Guest:How do you describe something like that?
Marc:Well, if you don't have kids, there's no real reason to maintain a relationship, but you'd hope it would be polite.
Marc:Like my first wife, it's okay.
Marc:I see her at family events because she was friends with my brother's wife, first wife.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:It's good now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, she's very instrumental in getting me actually into comedy.
Guest:How so?
Guest:She introduced me to a lot of British comedy.
Guest:Dennis Pennis, The Day Today, Steve Coogan.
Guest:And I think that's kind of like where, and those are names, by the way, that all comedians are like, hey, it's like a cool calling card.
Guest:But I really mean it that she showed me tapes of these people
Guest:who really kind of got this idea in my head of you don't have to be like a stand-up stand-up comedian.
Guest:You could be this other thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But never Andy Kaufman.
Guest:Absolutely Andy Kaufman.
Guest:When I was a kid, that's almost like, I assume that's something that affected everybody, Andy Kaufman.
Guest:I don't know if that's true.
Guest:Well, for me and my friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was it.
Guest:SCTV and Andy Kaufman.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Andy Kaufman.
Guest:I mean, like we just, you know, we all imitated him and talked about him.
Guest:Andy Kaufman.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Oh my God.
Marc:God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But see, the reason why, you know, I'm saying it and it's interesting to me that you're like, wasn't everybody?
Marc:Is that no, obviously it wasn't everybody.
Marc:I suppose not.
Marc:And the truth of the matter is, is that you definitely draw a line between what you see is the shortcomings or the limitations of stand up comedy.
Marc:And, you know, because that's over here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, you knew that was one way.
Marc:So, you know, knowing that you liked Andy Kaufman, who was above and beyond or extraordinarily different, but somehow placed in stand up historically.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So, you know, he was unto his own.
Marc:But I see that you make a distinction between traditional stand up comedy and the freedom that you found to do what you do.
Marc:Only for me.
Marc:That I didn't have the ability to.
Marc:No, but it's interesting to me that Kaufman had such an impact on you.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:Because he was definitely a specific thing and not everybody's thing.
Guest:I suppose.
Guest:I didn't even think about that it wouldn't be everybody's thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But for me, yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Like, what was the first thing you saw him do that made you go like, holy fuck?
Guest:Oh, Mighty Mouse.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:That was it, huh?
Guest:Mighty Mouse.
Guest:And then all the wrestling stuff where he would, I remember he did something where he was just like talking right to camera and he's like, hey, everyone in the South, this is soap.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that, it was just that concept of like, oh, this is so immediately insulting.
Guest:It was so, and he's kind of doing a character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh my, I just, the very idea of it.
Guest:Really, really, I loved it.
Guest:But we were a little, were you seeing it in real time?
Guest:Like Mighty Mouse?
Guest:No, I was, this was, something happened where SNL must have been doing reruns or something.
Guest:Because that's 76.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And somehow in 1980 or somewhere in there is where it was started to.
Guest:And that's where you were introduced to him.
Guest:That's where it was happening for,
Guest:my friends and so you saw Andy Kaufman for the first time on maybe like a an SNL anniversary something a repeat right and I've asked Lauren about it I'm like Lauren why do I know these things that happened in 1976 or 75 but I think maybe what does he say that they I think that they reran some of the original episodes at some point around then that you've asked them that to him to his face and he yeah and he says what yeah I don't know I
Guest:Or no, he'll say like, yeah, I think they had a... Like he'll explain that there was some system where... Because... Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's nice that he answers you.
Marc:He tries to figure out.
Marc:Like I can't see that that's necessarily on his radar where they repeated it.
Guest:He seems to have a good... He's got a good library for that stuff.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:In his head.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I ask about it, all of it.
Guest:Because those musical guests on SNL, I will never stop asking him about the bands that he had on.
Marc:Like who?
Guest:the specials.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He put the specials on TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's the best musical performance ever of anything.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And definitely of SNL.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And he put this- What did they perform?
Guest:Ghost Town?
Guest:What did they- Gangsters.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's the greatest thing ever.
Guest:I can't get enough of that.
Guest:And Devo.
Marc:And what do you ask him?
Guest:What was it like?
Guest:Why?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:How did you know?
Guest:Didn't he have a booker?
Guest:He had a booker, but I think he was trying to reflect what was going on in music at the time.
Guest:Talking Heads, too.
Guest:I think Devo, he explained to me, they had the same manager as Neil Young.
Guest:It was one of those things.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then Lorne has this ability to sort of sum up in a couple of phrases what the band was.
Guest:And I think with Devo, he was like art schools.
Guest:He said something about art school.
Guest:I was like, okay.
Guest:He recognizes what all these bands were.
Guest:The B-52s, Talking Heads, all these bands that like...
Guest:really inspired, you know, how I do comedy even, that kind of performance, straight to camera, you know, costumes.
Marc:So that's interesting to me that your sense of what creative freedom could be as a performer in the specific way it applies to you came from SNL.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:As a young person.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I remember David Bowie did something where he had like a... Klaus Nomi was his backup singer.
Guest:He had like a fake dog with a TV in his mouth.
Guest:Just visual things that immediately resonated with me.
Guest:And you were like, what, 15?
Guest:Something in there, yeah.
Marc:yeah so when I see Lorne now that's the guy I see I'm like you he had a connection to all of that so it's directly you know right but it's interesting that it wired your brain for who you are creatively you know specifically you know comedically and musically to a degree without a doubt and that's something without a doubt
Marc:That's like I just did a classic talk.
Marc:What do you what do you know?
Marc:We both decided.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I then that that sort of loads up the possibility for you to be on it as being like this like mind blowing thing.
Guest:Yeah, SNL meant a lot to me, always.
Guest:Always has.
Guest:Still does.
Guest:I still watch it.
Guest:I'm still connected to it.
Guest:I've always understood the language of it.
Guest:Even when I didn't agree with the host, I understood why they were the host.
Guest:Now, how long has it been since you've been on?
Guest:I was on, you know, I left in 2012.
Guest:You miss it?
Guest:Oh, no, 2013.
Guest:It's only been a couple years.
Guest:I'm always around it.
Guest:Was it your choice?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:it sure was hard choice to make but but you're still in the family i mean yeah it's a i remember amy polar telling me she's like you'll feel when it's time to go yeah and she said don't worry lauren will always be in your life snl will be in your life don't worry because that's what i was worried about i was like i want to this is you know i love being around it and and yeah and you were like well let's let's let's work up to that so so
Guest:They send the tape.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:They send a tape and then they bring me into audition.
Guest:And I went to UCB, went up and did my... The original UCB with the shitty, the weird seats?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you walked in and you kind of had to walk by the stage.
Marc:Like when you walked in, the stage was on the right and you had to make... That's the one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So who else is on the night?
Marc:So this is where your audition is going to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everyone else who auditioned was groups, like improv groups.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:And then I went up and I did that.
Guest:And then a while later, maybe a month later, two months later, they asked me to come back and do it at the studio.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:Camera audition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They flew me to... And I was already like in heaven.
Guest:I was like, I can't believe this is happening.
Marc:It was just for Marcy at UCB or Lauren came?
Guest:Oh, Lauren came.
Guest:Tina Fey came too.
Guest:She was the head writer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then...
Guest:She was head writer.
Guest:There was a couple head writers, I think, at the time.
Guest:And then when I met Lauren, I was like, you knew George Harrison.
Marc:You said that to him at UCB?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I asked him, and then this is a very typical Lauren thing to say, but I asked, I was like, just this conversation, like, so are you seeing a lot of people, meaning, you know, auditioners?
Guest:And he answered, no.
Guest:Which is a very honest, like, you know, you would think the answer would be like, oh, yeah.
Guest:But he was very like, no, we are not.
Marc:So when you said you knew George Harrison, you sort of approached him with an intensity and sort of left field question because it was what was compelling to you.
Marc:How did he respond to that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, can you imagine someone who knew George Harrison?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if you love George Harrison.
Marc:Any of the Beatles.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They're like, you know.
Marc:He knows Paul Simon too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Paul Simon.
Guest:I mean, that was my way in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like George Harrison, Paul McCartney, but like all this subsequent conversations about the rest of the bands.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Ricky V Jones.
Guest:Let's talk about all these bands.
Guest:That conversation doesn't end.
Guest:Every time I see him.
Guest:Every time I see him.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:so fascinating to me so all right so you say do you love george harrison are you seeing a lot of people no and that's it that's the end of the conversation and the conversation met tina uh then i did it again at at the studio and then um i you know from there marcy klein told me that that i got the job so then did you have to meet lauren again i ended up not i just saw him again in the studio but i didn't have like an official meeting with him
Marc:Now, was there fear, like, I mean, in approaching this?
Marc:Because you seemed sort of like you were ready to go.
Marc:Like, I'm not sensing any kind of like I was freaking out.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It was all, everything was just dessert.
Guest:It was like ice cream.
Guest:You know, it was like...
Guest:I still think of it that way.
Guest:I still think, I can't believe it.
Guest:I can't believe my luck.
Guest:What a nice thing to watch this show and get to know these people.
Guest:Because there's the show and there's the people.
Guest:There are these crazy people who built this thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:I mean, like Lorne and all the people around him and Steve Higgins and all the people on the cast, people from casts from before who just were part of it all.
Marc:A family, alumni.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they'd come in occasionally, wander around.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Chevy Chase would come in.
Guest:Chevy Chase.
Marc:Walk around.
Marc:Molly Shannon.
Marc:Was there ever a point where they're like, why is that guy hanging around every day?
Marc:Who?
Marc:Like any of them.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:It was never for long enough to ever get that sense.
Guest:It was always.
Guest:Not sad.
Guest:No, because also it's like this building in the middle of Manhattan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's not very physically friendly in that way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like where there's a bar and you can hang out.
Guest:It is a little, it's cold enough that people just pop in and out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, during your time there, which was like, what, a little over a decade?
Marc:Yeah, 11 years.
Marc:Like you said, there'd be times where you didn't agree with the host, but you understood it.
Guest:Oh, no, I meant watching the show.
Guest:So before I was ever on, when I was a musician, I would see a host, who knows who, but who's more of a pop culture figure.
Guest:And I would disagree, but agree with the choice they made.
Guest:Like, ah, but I understand.
Guest:Why is he on?
Guest:I understand.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you learned about show business.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I understood the logic of how SNL is like a newspaper or a magazine where it doesn't all have to be such a catalog evening.
Guest:It's all sort of, hey, this is for right now.
Guest:This is how it should be.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And over the course of the decade, I mean, was meeting musicians that you respected more exciting than doing the show?
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was, yes, it was really exciting.
Guest:Seeing all the different kinds too.
Guest:Stuff I never, people I never would have imagined meeting.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:I remember meeting the musicians for Paul Simon, Steve Gadd, the drummer.
Guest:It never occurred to me that I'd ever meet this person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He'd been with them for years, right?
Guest:Oh, he's 50 Ways to Leave Your Love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He composed that drum beat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So at the studio, this is going to sound like a made up talk show story, but I- Have you told it many times?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I've never.
Guest:But I saw him and I go, you got to show me that beat.
Guest:So we went to the kit.
Guest:We went to the kit and he showed me what it is.
Guest:And it's an upside down, insane beat that makes no sense.
Guest:And he was like, and you know how musicians, you assume they talk like scholars?
Guest:He was like a New York guy.
Guest:He's like, yeah, I just kind of turned around.
Guest:He explained it in a very simple way, but it's a very upside down, bizarre beat.
Guest:Can you nail it?
Guest:Yeah, it's like...
Marc:you know yeah yeah yeah um but you couldn't have figured that out on your own no way no way because the way you hear it is different than it's played oh okay you hear something and you assume it's something and he's like no yeah so who else like did you pull aside and have to go look at their instruments or get some
Guest:There were bands like, I remember Modest Mouse.
Guest:And I remember Jack White, too, where I would look at all the pedals that they had, which was great, too.
Guest:Wow, they really have a full setup.
Marc:So you were the guy out there.
Marc:All the time.
Marc:When the music rehearsal was on.
Marc:Yeah, I loved it.
Marc:Yeah, seeing how they did it.
Guest:Loves it always.
Marc:Was it only you from the cast?
Guest:No, I think a bunch of us.
Guest:Bill Hader was a super... Everyone.
Guest:Depending on the band, you're just out there and just seeing what they have, all the little stuff that they take for granted.
Marc:And you must have met a lot of musicians that you didn't necessarily like their music, but you were like, wow.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:yes yeah all the time especially because they're playing live and that's not that doesn't always happen i don't know how much backtracking they do or how many much you know overdubbing they do on those live performances but they're pretty live they're they're the real deal yes especially hip-hop actors i'm actually not that educated in right so to see their live band i'm like oh that's the drummer who plays for whoever yeah
Guest:Look at that job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look at that guy holding everything together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, at a volume where you can hear everything else.
Guest:It was it was pretty amazing.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in terms of creating characters and doing impressions, how much work do you have to put in?
Marc:I mean, I imagine that building characters from the inside out that you invent is something more organic.
Marc:But impressions, I mean, what do you do?
Guest:is it like rehearsing music no it's like the other way it's like the other way around where you reach for what is in your wheelhouse anyway so it's not like you wrestle with it you just find something like I think I could do so and so right I think that you know my skull looks like their skull I think that my right they seem to be from me and then you just drop into it yeah because it's a neck thing it's almost like you just like you walk into the the groove yeah like it's a it's almost like an essence yes
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's an essence.
Guest:You know, I look at a picture of somebody.
Guest:Sometimes someone would throw something at you and you get lucky.
Guest:Someone wrote something where I played David Lee Roth.
Guest:And I'd never imagined, you know, like trying to do them.
Marc:But then, you know, you probably could have gone to his apartment and worked with him for a little while.
Marc:That would have been great.
Guest:He was around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To hang out.
Guest:So stuff like that.
Guest:It's just, you know, also, I don't...
Guest:I don't walk around thinking, hey, Mark, I'm the king of impressions.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It worked for SNL, but I, you know.
Marc:I never even think of you that way, really.
Marc:I think of more of a guy who creates characters.
Marc:You did a show, and I think I talked to you about it before, that was painful to me in a way.
Marc:Did I talk to you about it before?
Marc:It was so perfect and so brutal.
Marc:And it's weird that I reacted to this as being brutal.
Marc:You did the guy who's doing the one-man show?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because there was a period there in comedy specifically, which is exactly, I think, defines the different world that you run in creatively.
Yeah.
Marc:where a comic would, in order to get more attention on himself, would create a show with a narrative, like a one-man show that didn't necessarily have to be funny.
Uh-huh.
Marc:And it happened a lot.
Marc:And I did one.
Marc:So, you know, there was this guy you did.
Marc:I saw it at UCB, I think here, you know, where you're just telling.
Marc:I don't remember what the story was.
Guest:Do you know the character I'm talking about?
Marc:I remember the character, but I don't remember.
Marc:It was just a guy doing a one man show.
Marc:And you had the movement of a guy that was awkward with stage movement, but having to make the point that he's trying to make about his life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it might have been a Long Island guy, I think.
Marc:Sounds about right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was just sort of like, oh, no.
Marc:It was such a specific impression because it wouldn't read as a satire unless you knew that world.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:yeah it's for us yeah it's you know i don't know who's going to be entertained by it but i figured right but to me it was sort of like oh that's brutal because it was just this earnest dude you know what struck me was you were playing a guy who was performing because he had he put the time into putting this thing together but talent didn't play into it right yeah
Guest:I had seen a show somewhere.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Might've been when Aspen was still happening.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was like a very serious one man show.
Guest:And there was something about the volume of someone, you know, there's a, cause it's so quiet in between words.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like it's loud, but then I'm so nervous as an audience member because it's so quiet in between where they say something and then,
Guest:And then you hear their footsteps, too, on the stage.
Guest:And then they pause.
Guest:They pause.
Guest:And it's so thoughtful that it feels too still.
Guest:I could feel it in my stomach.
Guest:it is uh yeah that's what drove you was that that yes yes moment yes and as you described it it's not it doesn't have to be funny it's kind of not funny it's actually quite serious right and how profound it is maybe at least in the way it's presented as profound and and questioning and like the whole like what you know the the questioning of everything and
Guest:What does it all mean?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's just, you know.
Marc:But to me, that really speaks to who you are creatively, that your discomfort in those silences of a guy trying to make a very earnest point about his experience was the tone that drove the character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I kind of want to live in it forever.
Guest:It's just so horrible that I want to live in it forever.
Yeah.
Marc:So you left SNL and Lauren was fine.
Marc:Your experience with Lauren, it sounds, was because I think of your confidence and your excitement that seemed to kind of last the entire time you were there, that you didn't see Lauren as frightening.
Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:I saw him as someone who wants to make something.
Guest:So when people want to make something, I think, yeah, what is this that you do?
Guest:What are we making?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How did you do this?
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's your next thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And watching him, just watching him direct, even though he's not the director of the show, but he would give notes on the dress rehearsal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He'd give notes on the dress rehearsal.
Guest:The way he saw everything on the walls, the color of wigs, the color.
Guest:Someone who's obsessed with aesthetics, I'm so on board.
Guest:I'm like, who's that guy?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I worry that I don't think enough about color.
Guest:I'm like, look at this guy.
Guest:Isn't that wall a little dark?
Yeah.
Guest:He's so on it.
Guest:And then he's very, also with, he doesn't let you get precious about yourself.
Guest:He doesn't let you go, he doesn't want you to think like, hey, I'm great.
Marc:I got it, yeah.
Guest:Which is the best way to be.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It's the best thing to serve the sketch, to serve the show.
Guest:But he's encouraging or no?
Guest:He's encouraging, but he protects you from yourself.
Guest:He's protected me from myself so many times.
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Like an example.
Guest:An example.
Guest:This is a really good example.
Guest:I did a character, ooh, a little bit based on you and David Cross together.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I remember that, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I got emails about that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Nicholas Fain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he dressed a little bit like you, but talked a little bit like David Cross.
Guest:And the joke of it is I never finish a sentence.
Guest:He's a comedian?
Guest:He's a comedian, but, you know, Largo.
Guest:He's like a Largo comedian.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the joke is I never finish a sentence.
Guest:It's half sentences.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:For example.
Guest:If I did it right now, you wouldn't appreciate the way you would laugh or the way that you would want it to be on your show.
Guest:Well, you would take away from it.
Guest:So it's like that.
Guest:It's like, hey.
Guest:so it's that anyway I did it for dress rehearsal then I did it for air his note was we're not going to do it for dress rehearsal anymore because you are trying too hard to make it sound like jazz where jazz musicians enjoy their own music you're trying too hard to make it different every time so he saw that he's protecting me from me trying too hard no more rehearsing this business let's do it on air where it can be fresh
Guest:And what a reference that it's like jazz instead of like, hey, check me out.
Guest:It's like that has to go.
Guest:That's someone who knows me better than I know myself performance wise.
Marc:And he did that a lot.
Guest:He did that a lot.
Marc:What a thing to do.
Marc:Well, I think because he knew innately that
Marc:your talent was seemingly boundless and specific.
Marc:So he knew that you were gonna get it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Whatever the hell it is that you're putting together, you were gonna get it.
Marc:But your overworking element
Guest:yes is is your worst is your liability is is my is my worst enemy right interesting yeah so stuff like that also and also like you know maybe there was an impression i did that wasn't great maybe there was a character i did that was like so so right we're not doing it on the air did you know usually that he was right in those times or did he ever i learned that it took me a few years uh-huh
Guest:And I'd feel more like a failure.
Guest:I'd go, damn it, why didn't I just, I should have.
Guest:But then later, I was like, I understood, oh, it's just a show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there are a million other opportunities to do something else where you can do that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it seems like you're unique in the SNL world.
Marc:the people I've talked to and the people I've known over the years that, you know, you still seem to... You're still sort of a mystery, talent-wise, in the sense that, you know, you didn't... You always seem like...
Marc:the best part of you in a way is on stage.
Marc:Not in a moral judgment, just in that you kind of leave it on stage and then you get off stage and you're not like, hey, there's Fred Armisen out at the thing.
Marc:Look at Fred Armisen.
Marc:You're not doing what a lot of
Marc:Past performers do.
Marc:You went in an entirely different direction in a way because I think you had more choice in the way you went.
Marc:That you seem to be generating something that you are intrinsically involved with creatively in a way that gives you the most freedom possible.
Guest:I'll take it.
Guest:I mean, the way you described it is better than I could have ever put together in words.
Guest:Do you know what I mean, though?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you didn't sort of like, you know, I'm going to do a bunch of movies based on the characters I do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm going to keep doing new characters in a creative environment with Carrie for a network that gives us a lot of freedom and really see where it goes and not, you know, have to play into this mega million dollar studio machine where you might have been crushed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's a...
Guest:I haven't I don't think things far enough ahead yeah I just do it little by little right and but that is basically the way it is like this seems fun and this seems lucky because all these things we were musical director for Seth Meyers show for the first what six months or something or are you still doing that still still doing it from afar I love Eleanor Friedberg
Guest:How great is Eleanor Friedberger?
Marc:The best.
Marc:How great is she?
Marc:I love her.
Marc:I wish we could have been married.
Marc:It didn't work out.
Guest:Well, you can still maintain a type of relationship with her.
Marc:I haven't.
Marc:We met and we spent a little time together, and I really liked her, but it didn't seem logical to me.
Guest:Have we dated some of the same people, Mark?
Marc:Probably.
Guest:I think we have.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Let's go through it.
Marc:You really want to go through it?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Because I don't date a lot of show business people.
Marc:And her and I, we only maybe dated a couple times.
Marc:But I was sort of like starting something else.
Marc:And she lives far away.
Marc:So you know what I mean?
Guest:But there's always a way that if you really like someone.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:To keep them in your life.
Guest:Anyway, it doesn't have to be dating.
Guest:I don't know if I've really gotten the hang of that.
Guest:Have you?
Guest:With some people.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So with people like Eleanor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who, you know, we didn't date anymore, but there's still a way to, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For example, with Seth Meyers' show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, how about, why don't you stay in my life?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Somehow, anyway.
Guest:Play some guitar on this thing I'm doing.
Guest:And there's actually like, there's something kind of, there's an intimacy to that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's actually nicer because it's not loaded the same way.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So, um, yeah, you've had some fairly public, you know, disturbing relationships.
Marc:It seems.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:I've had, you can't hide, I guess.
Guest:No.
Guest:And it's, these are, you know, the choices that I made.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So why would you get married again?
Um,
Guest:Because it's so intoxicating.
Marc:The idea of it?
Marc:Or the actual being it?
Guest:All of it.
Guest:How long were you married to Elizabeth Moss?
Guest:Two years?
Guest:Less than that.
Guest:Under a year.
Guest:Was that heartbreaking?
Guest:I was very heartbroken at myself.
Guest:I felt very... I gave myself a hard time.
Guest:I felt very bad.
Guest:That it broke up?
Guest:Just at...
Guest:how little true work I would put into something that I got so caught up in the beginning.
Guest:The beginning is so intoxicating.
Guest:How long had you known her?
Guest:A year.
Guest:Okay, that's a year.
Guest:So the whole thing was very short.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you were like, let's get married.
Guest:It's so exciting.
Guest:And this is gonna sound very shallow, but I get lost in fantasy a lot.
Guest:Really?
Guest:The guy who does characters?
Guest:But I would hope that I had a place where I didn't get lost in.
Guest:But, you know, the fantasy of this person from Mad Men and, you know, who... Great actress.
Guest:Great actress.
Guest:Incredibly compelling and unique.
Guest:Incredible.
Guest:And then as a person is interesting and all of it, all of a sudden, it's almost like a slide of like, this is great.
Marc:It's like starstruck in a way.
Guest:It is like being starstruck.
Guest:And I was getting to know the other people from the show and her and...
Guest:I even felt like at SNL, all of a sudden, I was talking about, hey, you know, guess what's happening with me?
Guest:So it was very, very exciting.
Guest:And I think I just only got caught up in that part of it without the problem.
Guest:And this, you know, we're talking about this relationship.
Guest:This is something that's happened to me a million times.
Marc:But when do you know it goes bad?
Marc:I mean, like, so you get married, you go through all that.
Marc:It's still exciting.
Marc:And then what the fuck happened?
Guest:I have a problem with intimacy where all of a sudden there's a real person there, right?
Guest:Oh, so now you're stuck.
Guest:Now I'm like, oh, there's a person behind all of this.
Guest:It's not the girl on Mad Men.
Guest:It's not the girl.
Guest:It's a person.
Guest:With feelings.
Guest:The same thing happened with Sally is that she's British.
Guest:So I heard this accent.
Guest:You can marry this British woman who's in a band, and then all of a sudden there's a real person there.
Guest:And I'm trying to fix this.
Guest:I'm trying to get better at this.
Guest:But something happens in me where it's almost like an amnesia, where it's almost like waking up and going,
Guest:Where am I?
Guest:Who is this person?
Guest:Even why is this person looking me directly in the eye and having a conversation with me?
Guest:Having emotional expectations.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's a very, it's something that I. So you can be sort of in a spell.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:For like a year or two.
Guest:Yes, and that's a public one.
Guest:When I lived in Chicago, I would move from apartment to apartment.
Guest:I remember I would move in with so many people.
Guest:Just lived with a girl.
Guest:Women.
Guest:Women.
Guest:And then met someone else, moved in with them.
Guest:The amount of times in my life I've had.
Marc:Oh, a lot of broken hearts back there, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the amount of times I've had furniture sort of handed to me.
Guest:It's happened a lot.
Guest:Like I want you out.
Guest:Who usually ends it, you or her?
Guest:It's me becoming impossible.
Guest:Oh, so you make it happen.
Guest:I shut it down.
Guest:You make it happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you start saying things like, you're going to go.
Guest:Well, there's infidelity.
Guest:There's cheating.
Guest:It's the most chaos I've had in my life.
Guest:Around women.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And that's the bad side of it.
Guest:I'm neither ashamed or proud of it.
Guest:It's just something that's happened in my life.
Guest:And this is just a relationship part of it.
Guest:I'm not even talking about the sex part of it where when I was in a band and stuff, my main goal was to hook up with strangers on tour.
Marc:That's not unusual for performers.
Marc:I want to do it to get girls.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:you know where are we touring yeah i know someone in san francisco i actually know a girl in seattle yeah you know and right i have a suspicion that might have contributed to the fact that our band didn't get as far as it did because i certainly wasn't about the music right yeah when i was at recording studios with the band i never thought it should have been a different kind of band maybe
Guest:But I still would have found the same chaos.
Guest:I think I still would have.
Guest:And I say these things because I'm not finished being a person.
Marc:Look, we share this, dude.
Marc:I mean, I know that compulsion.
Marc:You know, the compulsion of connecting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the compulsion of feeling the excitement of engaging sexually with strangers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like there's really nothing like it.
Marc:There's nothing like it.
Marc:No.
Marc:And, you know, now, like everything else in our lifetime, you know, there's a framing for it.
Marc:You know, the sex addiction or whatever.
Marc:And being a guy who is familiar with recovery from drugs and, you know, understanding, you know, that, yeah, okay, maybe I can look at it like that, but it's still like, it's still sex.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the chaos thing, you know, you can't underestimate how compelling that is either.
Marc:Because when you're a person who is creative and, you know, you work really hard, that there's something you like about the excitement of chaos.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But all of a sudden, when you start realizing how many people get hurt, then all of a sudden you're like, oh, fuck, I got it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If only that wasn't part of this.
Yeah.
Guest:And I wonder how like, you know, cause there are musicians out there when you hear David Lee Roth stories or Gene Simmons, I'm like, how do those people do it?
Guest:Cause they don't seem to be, have the same, or, you know, we don't know these people.
Marc:You don't know it at all.
Marc:See, that's the same part of your brain that romanticizes everything else is like the thought that like those guys do it.
Marc:It's like, we don't know their fucking life.
Marc:It could be a nightmare.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:It could be a fucking nightmare.
Marc:We do not know.
Marc:You know, you know this public personality who's like, that guy gets so much pussy.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But, you know, at home he could be like, you know, just apologizing, you know, every five minutes.
Marc:I think you're right.
Marc:Oh, dude.
Marc:We're all humans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't see, I don't.
Marc:No, because you're fantasizing again.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Where's the, I want to be the guy that gets away with it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I'm like, how did they, but they're getting away with it.
Guest:I don't know if they, I don't think I'm sure there must be some hurt feelings in there too.
Guest:So yeah, it's, but you know, we're not, I do, I still believe in myself.
Guest:I still feel, I'm like, no matter how much I've fucked up in my life, I still think, well, that's okay.
Guest:Let's keep going.
Guest:There's a way to.
Marc:Well, now you also got a little public rap.
Marc:You know, there's a little like, you know, word on the street shit.
Marc:yeah but you know the weird thing about that one in particular is like you know when i hear that it's like well you know it it's not unusual do you know what i mean it's like okay so he fucks around a lot but you know i mean how when you're when you're a man who likes to have sex with people yeah and you you know you get to a certain place in life where you can do that more frequently how the fuck are you not going to do that yes
Marc:Because whether you want to be the type of adult that restrains himself or not, that's a lifestyle choice.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I agree with you.
Guest:And that's okay.
Guest:I think even negative things help me go forward.
Guest:Because I also think it could be a lot worse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How, you know, I think of the lucky side of it that I didn't have a, you know, I don't know, a string of children along the way or, you know, anything like that.
Guest:So I'm actually fortunate in that this is where it's at.
Guest:I'll take it since I brought that into my life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, what's your hope?
Marc:Ultimately, in that area.
Marc:I mean, do you find intimacy as you experiment with it or try to access it?
Marc:Do you find it that rewarding?
Guest:I do in that a person who I can be intimate with is a person who I don't have sex with, which is, say, Carrie Brownstein.
Guest:I find true intimacy there.
Guest:So I know that I have it.
Guest:I know that I'm not...
Guest:Shut down.
Guest:A monster.
Guest:Yeah, I know that I can be myself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Also with my friends.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I think also, you know, through program stuff, I know that I can, there are ways that every day I can try to have a better, see the difference.
Guest:So today, I don't have to worry about my phone or some stranger that I hooked up with.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That for now, I can little by little, you know, I'm having a good day today.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you're learning how not to act out and use people in that way.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it's hard.
Guest:And it's hard.
Guest:And I don't assume that it's a pill that tomorrow and everything goes away.
Marc:It's the hardest one, dude.
Marc:It's very, very hard.
Marc:Look, I tell you, man, I went to a couple of those things.
Marc:And the weird thing about...
Marc:like you know drugs and booze gambling you know you don't need those things food and sex kind of need it you do yeah and and like to sort of like to be in that position to determine your own bottom line around that shit how do you it's tricky dude and what's tricky also is booze is in certain places but people are just they're just everywhere yeah
Guest:so bars open all night all day long at you know every hotel every restaurant yeah and with celebrity comes a lot more access and i don't envy your struggle even even no it's okay yeah because because here i am i'm not delusional about it i'm not delusional about myself yeah
Guest:So, so the struggle also, I can't help it.
Guest:I can't, this struggle that I have, I don't have a choice.
Guest:This is a struggle.
Guest:It could be a lot worse.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I also could be dead.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There are worse things than, and then having too much vagina options.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think also that as long as I understand that there is a struggle, I think that's what most of it is.
Guest:I think you're right.
Guest:That's the part where I can... And I've had some really great days.
Guest:So that's the part where everything else falls away because I know that I've had this much time thinking about myself.
Guest:And then also when I talk to people like you and...
Guest:Sometimes Natasha, just people in my life, they are also calming down.
Guest:They're like, don't worry.
Marc:The thing about having the self-awareness and also having the support is that when you're in one of those situations where you're like, I could so do this right now.
Guest:oh yeah and then you gotta like you know i gotta make a phone call so why is life like that why i'm about to go up to this room there's also the other thing is when you get to do what you love to do you've got this confidence too you're sort of you're very much yourself sure you know you're oh yeah man you know so full of the juice hey i'm you know i'm a comedy guy so what's the problem yeah yeah so that's even it's even worse you have a lot of confidence so yeah
Guest:But all that said, people like Eleanor, going back to that, I still am able to have good relationships with people and with exes.
Marc:I think what happens also as you get older is that you realize that chaos, you actually have to do this...
Guest:the like an inventory of like is this worth it right and that that's just that's a mature decision yeah like this is you know you know what's gonna happen well the it yeah is huge the it is like do you want you know some you know someone's boyfriend calling you do you want you know whatever right no you want to get killed do you want to get killed that's a real thing that's a real thing it's reality so that's you know no
Guest:I like being alive.
Guest:So what's going on with Portlandia?
Guest:I'm flying back tonight.
Guest:We're in our sixth season.
Guest:We're on the same network.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I think no matter what, I think it gets out there.
Guest:IFC or not IFC, even through Netflix.
Guest:IFC is very supportive.
Guest:People seem to know it everywhere I go.
Guest:So it is my greatest joy.
Guest:It is my greatest happiness in my life.
Marc:oh that's great man and it's so funny it looks so fun for you guys you know both of you it's a dream all right well i'm glad man i'm glad you're living it and i'm glad you're taking care of the other stuff thanks yeah buddy and you too i mean are you taking care of all here yeah yeah i'm in a i'm in a relationship now and i'm very aware of my sexual compulsion and my anger issues and so i you know i'm aware and i'm doing well with both of those
Guest:I'm happy to hear that.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Guest:I'm in a relationship, too, and doing the same thing.
Guest:It's like... Good.
Marc:Good.
Marc:We can do it.
Guest:We can do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:I just put my forehead up against the microphone.
Guest:Nice talking to you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:That was an amazing conversation.
Marc:I was nervous to interview Fred because I didn't think that I could get to know him, and that was the most successful he's been, and I've known him a long time, and I've had him on live WTFs.
Marc:I enjoyed that conversation immensely.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com for all your WTF pod needs.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Do some things.
Marc:Check my calendar.
Marc:I'm going to be in Australia in October.
Marc:That would be good if you went to the Australian shows.
Marc:I got the new kid here.
Marc:It's fucking loud dude.
Guest:Boomer Lips!