Episode 617 - Laura Jane Grace
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuck abilities?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking knots?
Marc:Hi, it's Mark Maron.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:Everything good?
Marc:Are you running?
Marc:Are you driving?
Marc:Are you on the train?
Marc:Are you at home cooking or cleaning?
Marc:I hope it's going okay.
Marc:I don't know how you're listening to this or where you're listening to it.
Marc:I just talked to somebody who I met at a party the other night, the 4th of July.
Marc:And she said that some of these episodes were so moving that she would be moved to tears.
Marc:And she had to stop listening to the podcast at work because she didn't think that when she told her coworkers she was listening to music that they were buying it and she had to keep her shit together at her job.
Marc:And I took that as very high compliment.
Marc:Some of these things are emotionally compelling, but I'm sad that I can't help her distract herself from her job anymore.
Marc:But but it was for good reason.
Marc:Can I plug for a second?
Marc:Because I got these shows coming up in Boulder, Colorado, Friday, July 24th at the Boulder Theater and at the Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado on Saturday, July 25th.
Marc:And I'd like some people to go.
Marc:We're doing okay, but it'd be nice if more people came.
Marc:I don't always know if people know I'm coming.
Marc:It doesn't seem that there's anything I can do to get the word out.
Marc:as efficiently as I might want to.
Marc:So I'm telling you now, Boulder, Friday, July 24th, and Denver, Saturday, July 25th.
Marc:That's that.
Marc:That's how that goes.
Marc:Laura Jane Grace is on the show today.
Marc:She is the singer for the band Against Me, punk rock band that's been around for a lot of years.
Marc:I knew nothing about them.
Marc:I knew nothing about her when I got the record in the mail.
Marc:I don't even know who sent me the record.
Marc:But I put it on, as I do many of the records I get, most of the records I get.
Marc:And I listen to it, and I'm like, damn.
Marc:This singer means business.
Marc:This band means business.
Marc:There's a lot going on here.
Marc:There's something underneath all this.
Marc:And the album was called Transgender Dysphoria Blues.
Marc:Still had no idea.
Marc:Knew nothing about them.
Marc:And it turns out Laura Jane Grace is transgender.
Marc:And it's relatively new that she is Laura Jane Grace.
Marc:And I became sort of fascinated with that because whatever that struggle was, in my mind, when I just did a little bit of research, really informed this record.
Marc:That this record was about real change, real conflict, struggle, and identity.
Marc:And I was nervous.
Marc:I don't know if I was nervous, but I'm awkward in.
Marc:I'm sort of an old guy when it comes to this, the politics around it and the social momentum.
Marc:And I didn't know if I was going to talk right.
Marc:I mean, I'm not saying it's new.
Marc:It's not in my everyday life, necessarily.
Marc:It seems like the younger people who kind of came up with it and grew up with it, like the woman I'm dating, Sarah, who spent a lot of time in San Francisco, and she's in her mid-30s, and it just is what it is.
Marc:But I seem to have missed that, or perhaps I was just in stand-up comedy clubs my entire young adulthood and not out in the world.
Marc:But I was nervous.
Marc:in a way because i've i've i've made i've i've said look you can say whatever you want this is a weird thing about about words names you know things that are that we evolve out of culturally be there in in this this sort of reflects back to my conversation with the president and to you know some of the the type of feedback that comes around words and
Marc:is that censorship is really cultural.
Marc:There's no law saying you can't say anything.
Marc:You can say anything you want.
Marc:Free speech does exist.
Marc:You can say whatever you want.
Marc:Just know that if you say something that is hurtful or insensitive or objectifying, hateful,
Marc:You're going to feel that you're going to have to answer to it, perhaps.
Marc:But it just it's not taken lightly.
Marc:And then I understand, like, you know, there is an argument that like people shouldn't be so sensitive or or what's it what's happening.
Marc:People should be able to take the hit or whatnot.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is no one's telling you you can't say anything.
Marc:You just might end up only hanging out with people that say that.
Marc:Because they're the only people you can say it to.
Marc:And then you're just going to have to assess, is that the group of people you want to be hanging out with?
Marc:And are we in the right place with things?
Marc:I mean, I'm a comedian.
Marc:So we you can say words that are culturally inappropriate, hateful, objectifying.
Marc:You can say them to people that they may be, in a broader sense, directed at, but those people have a sense of humor about it, and that is part of your unique relationship with that person.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:But if you say them, if you defend your right to say them to a large group of people, you better have a pretty good defense on some level.
Marc:But I had a thing with the word tranny.
Marc:I believe I talked to RuPaul about this, who then defended the word and got his own flack from it.
Marc:And and, you know, in my mind, there's it just seems to me that that words come and go.
Marc:That words, it's something about a social democracy, a cultural democracy that eventually, you know, public opinion, you know, moves past it out of respect for the usually minority that was being dehumanized by the language.
Marc:You don't say Chinaman anymore.
Marc:You know, you don't say WAPT.
Marc:tranny you know seem like an innocuous one to even me but but it as as culture evolves and communities grow and and demand uh the respect they deserve as people maybe the slang bothers them maybe it hurts their feelings maybe it makes them feel less than but no one's saying you can't say anything it's just the way cultural democracy works and social democracy works is eventually it's sort of like
Marc:Well, you know what?
Marc:This word is hurtful and it's dehumanizing and it's making a community of people feel shitty about themselves.
Marc:It's not easy for them to begin with.
Marc:But they can say it.
Marc:That's just part of the way it goes.
Marc:But to demand equal rights on that, well, then you're going to have to sort of really explain where that's coming from.
Marc:Your need to say that.
Marc:Whatever that may be.
Marc:But getting back to...
Marc:To Laura Jane Grace coming over.
Marc:I just needed to know.
Marc:There was a lot of things I needed to know.
Marc:And there was a lot of things I needed to know about her.
Marc:There's a lot of things I needed to know about, you know, my engagement and interaction with transgender people.
Marc:And, you know, I want to grow.
Marc:I want to be up to speed.
Marc:I want to be appropriate.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:It's a hardship to make around just changing habits, especially word-wise.
Marc:I mean, look, it was hard.
Marc:It's hard to let go of certain words, especially when they got a little punch to them.
Marc:I mean, it took a lot for me to let go of retard.
Marc:Any of the flack I got for that was from families of mentally challenged people.
Marc:It's hard for me not to use the word cunt, but I never use it for women.
Marc:I only use it for men, and I'm still not quite past that.
Marc:Sometimes I enjoy calling a guy a cunt on Twitter.
Marc:Sometimes I enjoy it, and it's hard.
Marc:It's hard to let go of that.
Marc:Tranny was not a big one that I used a lot, so that one wasn't hard to shift out, to rotate out.
Marc:But, you know, we all make mistakes.
Marc:I said gypped the other day and someone said, you know, that's that's slang is derogatory, you know, against gypsies.
Marc:And then my first response is like, really, really?
Marc:Is there anybody really upset about that gypped?
Marc:It's like Jude down.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But is that really?
Marc:I mean, OK.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:OK, OK, OK, OK.
Marc:Okay, I'll be aware.
Marc:I'll be aware and I can take that out of rotation.
Marc:Because once you start doing that and once you start being aware of those words, it sort of opens you up to experience things in a new way.
Marc:It opens up a different type of respect.
Marc:It takes down a wall that's sort of defensive or based on lack of sensitivity.
Marc:And it opens you up a little bit.
Marc:And I was very open here.
Marc:You know, I liked Laura Jane Grace's work, but I was nervous because I didn't want to be inappropriate in terms of how I handled the conversation around what I needed to talk about, which is what happened inside of you to make these decisions.
Marc:I want to know.
Marc:I want to feel what you feel.
Marc:I think I did all right.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I've been going through stuff, doing some summer cleaning.
Marc:And, folks, I do try to listen.
Marc:This is the interesting thing about the... You know, sometimes things get through.
Marc:I get a lot of artwork, which I always keep, and I'm running out of space to put it up.
Marc:I appreciate all of your creativity, and I'm very flattered by it, even though the president saw it as narcissistic.
Marc:A lot of the pictures of me are pictures that you guys do here in the...
Marc:in the garage all the cds that come from you personally and the vinyl that comes from you personally i try to listen to more so the records because i'm into record cds i'll go through but i make snap judgments but i'm just telling you this sometimes things get through i will listen to all the vinyl at least once for a bit and a lot of the cds and sometimes things get through like um against me's transgender dysphoria blues it got through and
Marc:And they are on tour right now.
Marc:Against Me is on tour.
Marc:You can go to againstme.net for tour dates.
Marc:You can get Transgender Dysphoria Blues.
Marc:And you can pre-order their new live album, which comes out in September.
Marc:And they've got a very prolific band.
Marc:There's a big catalog there.
Marc:So now I'm going to talk to Laura Jane Grace.
.
Guest:I actually put all my stuff in storage right before I left on this most recent jaunt just because I was like, my landlord wanted to raise the rent and I was just like, screw it.
Guest:This is ridiculous.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Paying like whatever.
Marc:That's crazy touring.
Guest:Yeah, well, that's what you got to do to make a living as a musician, you know.
Guest:But I mean, like, do you have a house?
Guest:Well, I own a house with my ex who I'm going through a divorce with.
Guest:So, like, I own a house in Florida that I rented out.
Guest:What part of Florida?
Guest:St.
Guest:Augustine.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:But beyond, like, having a house there, I've been in Chicago since, like, 2013 or whatever.
Marc:In an apartment?
Marc:In an apartment, yeah.
Marc:In Chicago?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Since 2013?
Marc:Yes, August of 2013.
Marc:That's when he split up with the wife?
Marc:That is, yeah.
Marc:That's when it all went to shit.
Guest:That's when everything got fucked?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Life has a tendency to do that to you sometimes.
Marc:Well, you've gone through some dramatic shifts.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:in the last few years that's understand it huh yeah but like here's the thing is what i was telling you is i know we have a lot of common fans and people were excited to uh to have us talk is that i don't know where i got the new record the trend the transgender dysphoria blues but it was sent to me by your label or somebody well i'm we're our own label so i don't know i don't know how i got it
Marc:yeah that's cool you have it you didn't send it to me no uh-oh i mean unless maybe our management did or publicist i don't know or something like that all i know is that like i get a lot of records you know and and oh i get a lot of records sent to me and i listen to them and i put this one on and i'm like well this sounds fucking real like i in like and i'll listen to records you know people send me and they don't always click you know for whatever reason i do too yeah
Marc:Right, and you just put it on, and you're like, I'm not gonna listen to this again.
Marc:But this one, I'm like, I gotta listen to it again.
Marc:And I was like, there's some earnest, angry, interesting shit on here.
Marc:And then I kind of did a little research into you, and I'm like, who the hell's this person?
Marc:I think I actually tweeted that I liked the record, and then everybody was like, oh, you got to have Laura on.
Marc:And then I realized that you have this following, and you've been around for a while.
Marc:So then I had to go back, as I do, and I got to buy the other records.
Marc:See, you sold a few records in the last few days.
Marc:But the interesting thing about it is, and I also had to look up dysphoria.
Guest:Most people trip up and say dysmorphia or some other variation of that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I didn't know what exactly it was, but it's like a fairly familiar state to any creative person.
Marc:It's an uneasiness and a depressive uneasiness, right?
Marc:Kind of the opposite of euphoria.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But it seems to me that despite the title of this podcast,
Guest:record and whatever you've gone through recently that like for for someone who was gravitated to punk rock dysphoria was something you live with all your life it was yeah for sure i mean it was what pushed me to punk rock just because punk rock seemed like such a it was it was like armor you know yeah studs and spikes on your leather jacket and a mohawk right yeah
Marc:So where'd you grow up?
Guest:South Florida, Naples, Florida.
Marc:See, I don't know anything about it.
Marc:I know Florida, like sometimes I get a little weird about Florida, but my mother lives down there.
Marc:A lot of people do.
Marc:A lot of people's mothers live in Florida.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like there's an element down there.
Marc:In my mind, people have gotten mad at me for busting on Florida, but it's sort of the end of the line down there in a lot of ways, mentally and physically for some people.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:And well, that was very much the perspective growing up of you are at the end of the line and the only way to look was north unless you wanted to swim.
Guest:You had to go north, especially Naples.
Guest:You felt that.
Guest:And that was like, you know, pre-internet days.
Guest:So it's like no bands ever toured down there.
Guest:There was no pre-existing punk scene.
Guest:That was when you really had to kind of invent your own thing when you were a kid.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:I'm 34.
Marc:And what was your family like?
Marc:I mean, what were they doing down there?
Marc:Why'd you end up there?
Guest:uh my i grew up in a military family and my parents divorced when i was like 12 13 years old so i moved with my mother and my younger brother in with my grandmother who had retired to naples florida so that was it yeah and that that doesn't sound great no i mean it was not a good experience well we we moved from naples italy to naples florida and i had lived in italy then at that point for like four or five years you know i really had gotten accustomed to that because it was probably like from grades like
Guest:like second grade until like fifth, sixth grade, you know?
Marc:And there's an American base there?
Marc:There is.
Marc:And what was your dad in the military?
Guest:He was a West Point graduate, so he was a major in the U.S.
Guest:Army.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:He retired.
Guest:He did 20 years, and then he retired outside of Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri.
Marc:Really?
Marc:And do you guys talk?
Guest:He hasn't talked to me since I came out.
Guest:We haven't talked since I came out.
Guest:Since you came out.
Marc:Is there two processes of coming out?
Guest:I guess there is when you're somebody who does interviews and has a public persona.
Guest:There's the private and the public, sure.
Marc:Right, but when you say coming out as a transgender person?
Marc:Yeah, uh-huh.
Marc:And that becomes relatively obvious, though, eventually, right?
Guest:Well, that was kind of the point, was to go ahead and come out before anything was relatively obvious.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because I thought that that would, like, especially having, you know, I play in a band, I have a career, and, like, people in the punk scene are in general kind of homophobic and kind of sexist.
Guest:So if I would have not come out and just started, like, wearing eyeliner or expressing femininity, I think people would have been, like,
Guest:you know way more unaccepting that if i had just said look this is what's going on to me can you please fuck off while i go through this and just like you know maybe it'll be weird sometimes i might not look totally great all the time you know like this is what it is so you know ahead of time so but it's it's sort of funny though like in in my mind that that like real punk rock purists if you just started showing up with eyeliner and stuff they might as you know they might even think that you were moving towards some other type of music
Guest:Oh, totally.
Guest:Well, like Green Day is a great example of that.
Guest:I mean, that was the first punk show I ever went to.
Guest:People make fun of Billy Joe sometimes for wearing eyeliner, which is totally homophobic and totally transphobic and fucked up.
Marc:But it's also like, I think it also represents another kind of music.
Marc:I mean, you see makeup more in goth than in rock and roll, and I think maybe punk is sort of supposed to be just raw.
Guest:right i guess i i mean it depends on what kind of perception of punk rock you had and like because like if you look back at like lineage of punk bands like suzy sue and the banshees they were a punk band you know like right like i mean even the cure had elements in punk rock starting out you know and like there used to just be a wider variety of what was able to interpret mike ness social fucking distortion another state of mind is like you know covered in eyeliner the whole thing
Marc:Because I talked to him, who did I talk to?
Marc:Mike Watt recently.
Marc:And there's like, because there's a punk rock style, but the original punk rock was really just about doing whatever the fuck you wanted.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:And that's what attracted me to it, because that seemed like it would be more of a safe space.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And a lot of the like, especially like late 70s English peace punk bands that were really into anarchist politics and stuff like that, I was really drawn to that, just because that was even way more liberal and like way more about like, you know, gender liberation and smashing, you know...
Marc:Smashing the state.
Marc:But they happened earlier.
Marc:I mean, you're coming to that.
Marc:They were already nostalgia acts by then, right?
Marc:By the time you were coming to it, they've been around a while.
Guest:Yeah, although it's funny to think about that stuff because I think about that relative to my own career and how like, okay, almost been a band for 20 years and how like- Has it been 20?
Marc:almost yeah and like the that it doesn't seem like as wide of a gap even though it is as long to compared to when i was listening to those bands from the late 70s early 80s right like only 10 years difference i guess that's right yeah yeah yeah so okay so your your dad and mom split you're 13 he's in the military he hasn't talked to you now what in like three or four years yeah but you were talking before that
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, it's tough, like, when my parents split up, you know, like, there was a definite separation, and, you know, that, like, it was a dividing thing in my family.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of in ways, a relationship never really recovered, you know?
Marc:Were you close when you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, the military is really a thing, you know, and if you're someone who's...
Guest:you know went through went to west point has been in the army for a long time like you know generally being really emotionally expressive or close you know and like open like that is not a thing you know like it's just kind of a cold especially when it's a german background too you know really he comes from a german background but what about your mom uh what kind of background well no i mean like how was your relationship with her was she the buffer
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I mean, I was really close with my mom.
Guest:I was first kid or whatever.
Guest:I had an younger brother, but- There's two years?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Where's he at?
Guest:He's in South Florida.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:He's like, see, if I wouldn't have started smoking when I was 13 years old, I would have probably been his height.
Guest:He's like six, seven.
Guest:You're pretty tall.
Guest:Yeah, six, two.
Guest:But again, that would have been another five inches if I wouldn't have started smoking.
Guest:But he cracks safes for a living and he owns his own business installing high-end security system for people and security systems in South Florida.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you guys get along?
Marc:Yeah, we do.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So there you are.
Marc:So you get there when you're like 12 or 13 in Naples.
Marc:And what's it like down there?
Marc:I can't picture it.
Marc:Is it just a wasteland or is it pretty?
Guest:Well, you know, starting then was a real period of economic growth where like...
Guest:During that period of time, I think there are more millionaires per capita in Collier County, Florida, than anywhere else in the U.S.
Guest:And the two cities in Collier County are Naples and Immokalee, Immokalee being a migrant farm worker community with extreme levels of poverty.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So there was a real contrast.
Guest:And in general, like it was a retirement community.
Guest:So it's an older Republican white retirement community that doesn't want youth to be seen or heard.
Guest:So there just wasn't a lot to do besides like get in trouble.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And what was the kind of trouble you were getting into?
Guest:um you know like small shit like vandalism like you go to a golf course and you kick all the sprinkler heads off and stuff like that yeah and you know we used to rip head uh hood ornaments off of cars yeah or stealing chromies off of tires and stuff like that you know or like taking a battery and throwing at car windows dumb shit pellet guns we had pellet gun yeah paintball guns all that stuff you know
Marc:And what was the music that, how did you form your little crew?
Marc:I mean, because I don't know what year are we talking about.
Guest:1993 or so, something like that.
Marc:So were you the oddballs that you and your friends were, you were the punk rock kids?
Guest:totally and we went like i mean my group of friends that i kind of went into high school with like we met in middle school and like at first it was like you know listening to classic rock bands led zeppelin the doors pink floyd it's always there and right and then like but that like there was a real disconnect with the like kind of hippie movement that we associated with that because we got beat up a lot and it seemed like that that was like by jocks you know like we we were the freaks you know like and you sit together at lunch but not the hippie freaks
Guest:it was all just like you were the freaks they're like right it's small population so it's like the skaters the hippies the goth kids everybody sat together but punk rock appealed because it was seemed a little bit more about fighting back and like even if you're gonna get your ass kicked throwing up a couple punches in yeah so that like and did you yeah totally totally i mean you know to varying results but it's it felt better to fight back you know yeah and and what bands were you listening to
Guest:uh the first first record is never mind the bullock sex pistols and then that led into the clash and like there was all those classic punk bands that you first listened to like the dead kennedys and the misfits and then we kind of like gravitated towards what was more going on in the us of like bands out on the west coast like bad religion and rancid and no effects yeah yeah yeah and then like just like you know you back then you'd read the liner notes and see who they thanked and then you'd go buy those records right and if you liked them you'd see who they think and they were records
Marc:right yeah right weren't they still records then they weren't CDs yet I did CDs and vinyl but I've always preferred vinyl so when did you start playing guitar uh when I was eight years old oh really so who taught you that I mean who gave you the guitar I I just I saved up money mowing lawns and I like got five bucks a pop and where I had where were you when you were mowing lawns not in Italy yeah in Italy
Marc:Really?
Guest:I ordered it out of a Sears catalog.
Marc:You were the American lawn mowing kid?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You ordered it out of a Sears catalog?
Marc:Were you time traveling?
Guest:I did.
Guest:It was $125.
Guest:You got a Sears guitar?
Guest:It was a Harmony guitar.
Marc:Oh, Harmony.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Is that a Sears?
Marc:That's a Sears brand?
Guest:It was out of the Sears catalog.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Guest:And was it an electric?
Marc:No, it was an acoustic.
Marc:That's like time traveling to me, like a Sears catalog.
Marc:I didn't even know they stole it.
Marc:That was your idea?
Marc:I guess you're eight.
Marc:What do you know?
Guest:Where did you get it?
Guest:When you're an American family that moves overseas, you're really cut off, and especially back then, you were still really dependent on people back home and ordering things from back home.
Guest:Oh, so someone got it for you.
Guest:No, like I say that you'd get the catalog.
Guest:I saved my money.
Marc:And you sent away for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I had to wait like a month.
Guest:And then they sent the guitar.
Guest:And how'd you learn?
Guest:I took lessons from an army wife at first.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And she just taught on bass?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:She taught at her home.
Guest:Like we lived off bass or whatever.
Marc:And you went over there and you learned your basics?
Marc:Yeah, just like once a week.
Marc:G-A-C-D-E, then the bar chords.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's messed up, though, because learning on an acoustic like that, especially when you're a kid, when you don't have strong fingers, those guitars are basically made for archery.
Guest:They're steel strings, right?
Guest:The steel strings?
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:And the strings are like an inch off the fretboard.
Guest:It's hard to press down.
Guest:So that was really discouraging at first.
Guest:What were your first songs?
Guest:I wasn't really interested at first because it was all like, you know, whatever.
Guest:You saved up for the guitar.
Guest:I know, but the book they gave you, it was just like, you know, it was like.
Guest:Oh, like Michael wrote his mother's score.
Guest:Yeah, like I didn't want to play that.
Guest:So like I stuck with it, but I never felt like I was like, oh, I'm bad.
Guest:I can't really play this because I was totally uninterested.
Guest:But I stuck with it.
Guest:And then like finally when I was like maybe 11 years old, I started like playing in bands, like just with my church group.
Guest:We started up bands.
Guest:What kind of church were you in?
Guest:It was a Presbyterian church that my mother brought us to.
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:It was just more like when she divorced, she wanted to be social and there was like childcare.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It wasn't, you didn't, you didn't grow up with the weight of God on you?
Guest:Not, not heavy.
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So now when do you start to feel different?
Guest:I felt different my whole life.
Guest:Those are like earliest memories, you know?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Like earliest memories?
Marc:Like what are we talking about?
Guest:If I can like think of my three earliest memories, which are like kind of just, you know, those weird disconnected visual impressions.
Guest:I remember maybe being three years old and like standing on the top of a staircase as the first one.
Guest:And then I remember probably four or five years old, Fort Hood, Texas, standing in the living room in front of the TV and Madonna was on the TV and feeling a sense of identity in watching Madonna perform.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it was like a weird moment of both like, oh, that's amazing.
Guest:You know, she's performing, she's dancing, she's singing, you know, like this is crazy music I've never heard before.
Guest:And I like the melody.
Guest:But then also a feeling of like, I could do that too.
Guest:And immediately recognizing, but like, wait, I'm not, that's not how people perceive me.
Guest:There's a disconnect.
Marc:And how old were you?
Marc:Four or five.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:and then and then what how else did that then after that i distinctly remember like within a year or two after watching rosemary's baby and like feeling oddly drawn to mia pharaoh because she had like the pixie haircut and i was like oh well wait maybe there's a chance for me because i have hair like that that's how my parents get my hair cut so maybe maybe i'm not wrong maybe i could grow up to be like that
Marc:yeah you could grow up to be a woman grew up to be Mia Farrow in particular yeah all right I love the ambitions Madonna or Mia Farrow I fell a little short but it's not over yet yeah like all right so you're playing guitar you're 11 and you're starting to get the hang you're starting to decide what music you like 11 or 12.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, no, I mean, I got a Walkman when I was eight years old around when I first got a guitar and I started buying metal tapes.
Guest:Like I got Def Leppard Hysteria was the first.
Guest:So that was your music?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was like, I was drawn to them because I saw in them ambiguity in their sex.
Guest:But you also liked the music.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Although some of it really, you know.
Yeah.
Guest:But I liked looking at them.
Marc:But I mean, you could find plenty of ambiguity in rock music.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But you felt that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But at the same time, too, because I lived overseas, I was totally cut off from MTV.
Guest:Like, I really was stumbling into stuff on my own.
Guest:So, like, I found Hit Parader magazine.
Guest:I looked at the pictures and I was like, I can't tell if these are boys or girls.
Guest:You know, like, and then I'd go and buy the tapes and some stuff I'd like and some stuff I wouldn't.
Marc:But you found that a lot of what compelled you was the androgyny of the people?
Guest:Yeah, but then the bands I was really drawn to had more of the nihilistic attitude.
Guest:Guns N' Roses in particular was my band when I was a kid.
Guest:They're a good band.
Guest:Appetite is great, and I stand behind... It's great.
Marc:Illusions should have been one record, but other than that... Right, Lies was good.
Marc:I mean, I got no problem with... I don't know what happened with Chinese democracy, but that's... I bought it, so I can criticize it.
Marc:I know, I bought it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't like it.
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't know that I listened to it twice.
Marc:I listened to it a bunch of times.
Marc:Illusions I listened to twice.
Marc:So what was it?
Marc:So you reinventing Axl Rose was your first record.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, all right, but I don't want to miss a time chunk here.
Marc:So you lock into Guns N' Roses at like 11 or what?
Marc:Eight years old.
Marc:Eight years old.
Marc:That's when Appetite first came out?
Guest:88 or it came out 87 I was eight years old and he's a great fucking singer uh-huh compelling totally all of them are Duff and Slash you know like I wore a Sid chain because Duff wore one before I knew who Sid Vicious was right so you were pretty primed by the time you got to the pistols with rock yeah I was I knew a little bit yeah a little bit you know everything if you listen to Guns N' Roses and you lock in at eight it's all there
Marc:But when do you start realizing that this is your future and when do you start feeling like I'm making an assumption in that as your creativity evolved and became what it was in these first few records that your frustration with yourself must have been happening alongside of that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I mean, I made the decision what I was going to do really young.
Guest:Music-wise?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I dropped out of high school when I was 16.
Guest:I never had any doubts.
Guest:I just knew this was what I was going to do one way or the other.
Guest:Even if I was unsuccessful at it, this is what I was going to do.
Marc:But you never started playing metal, though.
Marc:You never started playing metal.
Guest:no no like the first bands i ever had like that by that time it was more grunge bands like we'd cover nirvana songs and pearl jam songs oh yeah and then like at the same time doing like pink floyd songs or beatles songs and then that was like and then we got into punk rock and that's how you learn how to play i guess basically with other people is play the
Marc:Play the hits.
Marc:Play the classic.
Guest:It's stupid how I can still remember to play songs from then.
Guest:Like, I know how to play even flow, but I don't remember how to play some of the songs I wrote like five years ago.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It sticks with you, right?
Guest:It does, yeah.
Marc:That's why it's a hit song.
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:So, because like, I mean, like, when I listen to like some of the older stuff,
Marc:It's sort of fascinating to me that the punk rock form, it feels a little familiar in the sense that The Clash, I can tell where you're coming from, but your singing is so kind of raw and brutal and full of a type of intensity and anger that is rare and you don't sound like anybody else.
Marc:But in looking at the arc of your life, I have to assume that the anger that you were feeling
Guest:became much more defined with this new record for sure but also i mean it was like it was there i mean you mentioned that a second ago like really what like made the anger levels like grow and dysphoria grow as like my band progressed was as we experienced success and as you're further cast into because when we started out we started out with really like specific ideals of being against all that you know against me it comes from what
Guest:Being 17 years old and feeling like everything in the world's conspiring against you.
Marc:And then you're pushing back with this music.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That was my outlet.
Guest:And, you know, we were really starting out of the way the band started as far as on an acoustic guitar.
Guest:It was because, like, I didn't have an electric guitar, so I played an acoustic guitar.
Guest:The drummer didn't have a drum set, so we dumpstered up pickle buckets, made a drum set, and that's what we did.
Guest:And we didn't have places to play because it was South Florida, so we busked on the street.
Guest:And then eventually, like, you met other people.
Marc:At least you were set up for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that was the idea, you know, like, and that was what it was modeled.
Marc:Well, that's how, well, that's, I think that's, that's how Billy Bragg sort of started, I think, in the Violent Femmes.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:And I was heavily, heavily influenced by both of them.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was part of the beginning.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, so you're busking and you're doing this, you're doing your original songs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're sort of, so those are a couple of your influences.
Marc:But there's some clash in there.
Marc:Sure, the clash.
Guest:And again, like all the peace punk bands.
Guest:Crass.
Guest:Crass, The Mob, Flux of Pink Indians.
Marc:But that comes a little later.
Marc:You can't really do that with an acoustic in buckets.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, when I was 14 years old, I got arrested.
Guest:And it was like life-changing experience for me.
Guest:Because I was like 14 years old, beat up by the cops, charged with resisting arrest and a battery on an officer, tried as an adult, convicted as a felon by the time I was 15 years old.
Guest:For what?
Guest:I went to the beach 4th of July.
Guest:I ran into the wrong cops.
Guest:I was a dirty, smelly punk kid.
Guest:And I got lippy with them when they got up in my face.
Guest:And then they beat me up.
Marc:And were you playing in a band at that point or no?
Guest:Yes, I was playing in a band.
Guest:Not against me, but I was playing in a punk band at that point.
Guest:I had black spiky hair.
Guest:So this was almost like a rite to passage.
Guest:yeah I guess I mean I didn't see it coming but yeah so I mean so what happened why was it a life-changing experience I mean because I was fucked you know like I was I was 15 years old and I was a twice convicted felon like I had really already sealed my deal as far as what my options were for the future like I was trying to
Guest:an adult i was you didn't do jail time did you no i got like 180 hours of community service and i was on house arrest for a whole summer you know i was like lojacked so where the fuck did you do that much community service uh i worked in a hospital and i volunteered in the cardio wing like giving people like uh jello cups and water after they'd been walking on the punk kid with the jello cups and i then i did habitat for humanity and then i did like you could choose what you could do
Guest:Well, I just had a lot of hours, so I had to do a bunch of stuff.
Guest:And then there was this place, The Conservancy, that was like a nature conservancy.
Marc:Well, that must have been some of those sound pretty good.
Marc:Like they could have been good experiences.
Guest:I got great things out of them.
Guest:But it was like when you're 15 years old and you're in that situation, you're scared shitless.
Guest:And my mom didn't have any money.
Guest:And like they're threatening you like you're going to go to jail or you're going to go to juvie, you know, and I didn't want to do that.
Guest:You know, I wanted to hang out with my friends and play music.
Guest:right and so like i immediately had that weight on me you know and and it was at that point because up until then like i had already gotten into drugs and alcohol and stuff like that what was your shit um i really liked tripping on acid and i really liked coke and i really liked smoking weed and at that point when i got arrested i just like sobered up and i was like 16 years old trying to get focused get on track and and that was when i started playing music and that's when i or like more seriously and stumbled into against me
Marc:So you stopped doing the drugs and just full-on focus.
Marc:So that's where all that insane vocal energy comes from.
Marc:Just the clarity of pure anger and fear.
Marc:I was pissed.
Marc:I was pissed, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:But then it seems to me like maybe being presumptuous or maybe not fully recognizing the arc of it.
Marc:It just seems like the first couple records are full on.
Marc:And then at some point around the third record, you did become a little self-aware in that you were shifting your perception of what you were really doing creatively.
Marc:sure yeah and a lot of that just had to come it came with success because like we came from the scene that was really about this certain thing diy punk ethics who is in and you guys you honored that by like there was no punk scene like you did what a lot of the bands a lot of the guys i've started it ourselves yeah put out our own first but this is two decades i mean this is a decade later from the original wave of those guys right or at least this is like well like you you did have the internet
Guest:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Guest:But it was coming as it was all happening and file sharing was happening and that was all changing.
Guest:But it was, you know, like I was dealing with a much different perspective than people must have assumed I was dealing with.
Guest:And part of that for me was always being recognizing like that I was dealing with dysphoria, you know, or like that I had that.
Guest:And so it like always skewed my perspective.
Marc:But that's retrospect.
Marc:This is retrospect that you're saying that with.
Guest:like i mean sure sure no but it's attached me you know like i saw things like okay like this is my circumstance right this is what i'm facing i'm playing in this band these people are now calling me a sellout because we moved to a slightly bigger indie label they're giving us all this money all of a sudden we got a lawyer we got a manager we got a booking and your original fans are you yeah and they're like slashing our tires being physically abusive attacking us hold on hold on
Marc:So when you start out, you self-did your first record, right?
Guest:First, like a 7-inch and a 12-inch we put out.
Marc:So that's righteous to that crew, the DIY punk rock crew.
Marc:And they can buy them at your shows, and they can buy your t-shirts.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's like five bucks for a 12-inch.
Marc:And you're playing on bills.
Marc:Did you spend any time opening for acts that you respected?
Guest:We just booked our own tours and went out and did our own tours.
Guest:So there was never playing in house shows, playing in basements, playing on the streets still like playing.
Guest:Sometimes you get a club gig, but it was all booking it yourself for the first like four or five years.
Marc:But there was never this sort of like, you know, a bigger punk band came into town, they needed a punk opener.
Guest:Well, in Gainesville, where we moved to, No Idea Records exists.
Guest:And No Idea does a really good job of documenting the punk scene there.
Guest:And they've had a couple bands like Hot Water Music and Less Than Jake that have gone on to do things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, they took notice of us.
Guest:We put out a record with them.
Guest:And that was like the first step to a really small indie.
Guest:And already then people decried like sellouts.
Guest:But then, well, then we moved to like Fat Records, which is like slightly bigger, you know, indie.
Guest:A band that, you know, run by Fat Mike, who we had grown up listening to FX.
Guest:And then that was like even more intense wave of like your sellouts, you know, like total.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because no FX was sellout at that point?
Guest:Because it was a bigger indie.
Guest:And then we started working with like.
Guest:But who the fuck are these people?
Guest:They're punks.
Yeah.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:But at a certain point, do you realize we might have to lose that?
Marc:They'll come back around.
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:I mean, it was more just realize the hypocrisy of it.
Guest:But once I saw that hypocrisy of it, then I was like, oh, fuck this.
Guest:Do the punk thing.
Guest:Think for yourself.
Guest:These are my circumstances.
Guest:This is what I have to do.
Guest:These are the decisions that are right for me.
Guest:There's nothing wrong with doing the things I want to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I wanted to be in a band and play for larger audiences.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And as you do that more and more, because we were touring like, you know, fucking nine months out of the year, playing like 200 some odd shows a year, like driving ourselves into the ground.
Guest:And most of the time we were homeless, you know?
Guest:Like, so eventually you're like, oh, it'd be nice to have an apartment.
Guest:You don't be grown up.
Marc:A shower.
Marc:My own shower.
Guest:That'd be great, you know?
Marc:But like, you know, when I...
Marc:So around the third record, that's the new label?
Guest:Well, that's when we started getting major label attention.
Guest:And we got corded one whole round and turned it down, got a bigger deal from our indie, and then went and finally ended up signing with Warner Sire.
Guest:So what was that record?
Guest:Which record was the first record on the new label?
Guest:The first record on the major label was New Wave.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So because I listened to a few of the songs and it seems that as you're saying that these punks sort of abandoned you or they slashed your tires or they were mad that you were sellouts, that you also realized the limitations of that outlook.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Like you were maturing along with your success in a way.
Marc:It wasn't killing you.
Guest:No, and it was healthy.
Marc:That was like the one good thing I had going for me, you know?
Marc:So now, so this, the dysphoria, because like, you know, I imagine I had dysphoria for one reason or another.
Marc:So like you're malcontent, you know, at that juncture where, you know, you blow out, you blow yourself out on all the punk rock shit, and obviously you get a little older, a little more successful, and he's still feeling a little shitty.
Marc:Then then it starts to become about something else, not just about, you know, class warfare or.
Guest:Well, then the dysphoria comes back.
Guest:Yeah, because that was the thing is like, you know, you jump into this where you're like, oh, shit, our band's getting like traction.
Guest:We're going to go off and we're going to tour for three, four years or something.
Guest:And then you're still unhappy.
Guest:And at first you were able to push the dysphoria aside because you're able to solely focus on that.
Guest:You know, like I'm going to be this person.
Guest:I'm going to do this.
Marc:How are you operating within the band?
Marc:I mean, how where was your sexuality at?
Guest:um i mean it was there you know well i got i got married when i was 19 years old and i was married from when i was 19 and we probably became estranged from each other when i was like 21 yeah so then like 22 to 23 i was going through the whole like oh shit my marriage just fell apart like really this is the first marriage or the one that just ended my first marriage so you've been married twice yes okay and so then 19
Guest:Yeah, and so 22 and 23, 24 were like the lost years of coming out of a marriage and being really fucked up.
Guest:It's worse.
Guest:Sleeping around a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're in a band that's touring a bunch and just doing stupid shit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So where'd you meet that woman?
Guest:At a bar?
Guest:Well, no, where did I meet her?
Guest:No, I met her at an activist info shop at the Civic Media Center, I think.
Guest:An activist info shop.
Guest:A non-corporate press library, lending library, an activist space in Gainesville, Florida called the Civic Media Center is where we met.
Guest:What was that place?
Guest:What did they have there?
Guest:I volunteered there.
Guest:It was like an activist organizing center.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Like everything from like a women's group to like, you know, radical bike workshops to activist training.
Marc:Like a full service activist training center?
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Totally.
Exactly.
Marc:What are you fighting against?
Marc:These are the basic rules.
Marc:Capitalism.
Marc:Capitalism.
Marc:That was the enemy.
Marc:Oh, that's a big one.
Marc:That's a big one.
Marc:We're going to have to get a few books out.
Marc:A few booklets on capitalism.
Marc:Noam Chomsky's luckily written a bunch.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Good luck with that.
Marc:Getting through the Noam Chomsky's.
Guest:Did you read all of his?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I read all the Emmett Goldman, all the Peter Kropotkin, all that stuff.
Guest:So you just got a head full of it.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I used to volunteer there and I booked shows there.
Guest:They'd let me book punk shows.
Guest:And that was where against me just like played all the time because that was the only place.
Marc:So your singular political agenda was against capitalism in your mind.
Guest:I mean, at the time it was really against like, you know, the World Trade Organization at the time of like the 1999 riots in Seattle.
Guest:All that protest movement was really happening.
Guest:And that was like all my friends were part of that.
Guest:i had like connected with an activist group in florida doing food not bombs yeah and we organized into something called fran which was the florida radical activist network and we'd meet up like once a month i'll talk about what we had going on in our area and then organize like rides to bigger protests or demonstrations against like so you've been an activist all your life really in one form or another yeah huh
Marc:so that's pretty earnest man that's some earnest punk shit because like i'm sort of fascinated with the whole the whole sort of like now like as i said at the beginning this record you know when i when i read the lyrics and i listen to it the activism you know is not it's not it's very personal that because of of your transformation um
Marc:that you've resolved some things in yourself and you realize there's still a lack of understanding and there's still a lot of reasons to be angry about how you're interpreted.
Marc:It's very personal.
Marc:So you're bringing that same intensity that you saw global injustice to this very sort of, your heart's connected to this in a way that is non-negotiable.
Guest:I'd like to think that it's a little smarter even than like the politics I was singing about when I was younger.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:If you're familiar with like Embrace, Ian McKay's band, your emotions are nothing but politics.
Guest:And this is something that's really real to me.
Guest:The things I was singing about when I was younger, while I felt the way I felt and still agree with it, I didn't have as big of an understanding or a worldview at 19 years old as I do now at 34, having like been around the world a number of times, you know?
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I used to do political talk radio, lefty talk radio, and at some point I realized that, like, I don't know if I'm angry about these specific things.
Marc:I know that I'm angry.
Marc:So let's address the existential and personal foundation or the core of that anger.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And do it.
Marc:So you were married once, and that fizzled out, and then you went through heartbreak.
Marc:When do you start wrestling with the desire to become a woman?
Guest:well like 2005 or so you know i'd gotten really up on cocaine and then 2005 i was like i'm gonna be sober i got sober so you went back yeah cleaned myself up and like at the same time after having gone through a bout of like the way it worked back then was like these experience of extreme dysphoria and then like binging and purging and being like no you know like i'm going to be a man this is what i'm going to do i'm going to pretend i do not feel this way
Guest:And that coincided with like signing a major record label deal.
Guest:And then you're swept off on that roller coaster.
Guest:But then come down from that, you know, when like you do two records and they're not a success or anything like that.
Guest:We went through this fucking lawsuit with the next manager.
Guest:Things like, you know, like friends die, shit happens in life.
Guest:And you realize like, I still feel this way.
Guest:You know, I'm fucked up.
Guest:You're uncomfortable.
Guest:And I'm living two separate lives.
Guest:I'm married.
Guest:I now have a kid.
Guest:We bought a house.
Guest:And I don't know who I am.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So when you did that, when you got married that second time, were you reacting to your feelings?
Marc:Did you think that by doing that, you could sort of train yourself into that life?
Guest:I think about it often just because I wonder if it's like subconscious, you know, because I would hate to think that.
Guest:But I was really like, you know, I got focused.
Guest:I got sober.
Guest:I got healthy.
Guest:I was like, you know, I wasn't fucked up making bad decisions.
Guest:And then I fell in love and I didn't want to fall in love, but I fell in love.
Guest:And it was more that like I fell in love and I ignored really being totally honest probably about who I was as falling in love, you know, and just like suppressed, suppressed.
Guest:But that made me more and more unhappy as especially as like you're kind of pushed into fitting this like cis normative lifestyle of like, you know, husband, wife, kid, cars in the garage.
Marc:It's weird how powerful that is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you're like, oh my fucking God, like the walls would just like felt like they were coming in more and more.
Marc:When you said you questioned or you were, in retrospect, trying to understand what falling in love meant.
Marc:Now, has your sexual orientation always been towards women?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And still?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So...
Marc:that must be i mean that's not to say i haven't made out with a couple guys or anything like that no no no i know but i'm just like in in terms of and i'm not it's not a judgment thing it's just like i'm just wondering where the fight was like when you say you fell in love with her and you you you sort of question whether or not that was a sort of like uh you know whether it was earnest or not or whether you just subconsciously trying to fit into something uh it was just i just wondered what the the whole dynamics of that would be but you just
Guest:Well, because you're just being, you're existing.
Guest:And at the time too, especially like, I mean, you have to realize that I probably didn't hear the word transgender until I was like maybe even 26 or 27.
Guest:It's pretty new for everybody.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:So like, I didn't understand myself.
Guest:It's not like I was carrying around.
Guest:I still don't fucking understand myself, but it's not like I was carrying around full knowledge of like, this is who I am and I have to hide this from everybody.
Guest:It was like, oh my God, I have all these feelings that are tearing me apart inside and I don't know how to reconcile them with me.
Guest:With life and what I'm doing and who I am, you know, and like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this.
Guest:The idea of transitioning even like was a far off concept that I'd only ever like, you know, maybe heard about once or twice.
Marc:I think we're all, you know, like from my where I'm sitting, you know, I am not.
Marc:Like I'm 51 years old.
Marc:So I missed the movement in a way of the trans movement.
Marc:I mean, I knew it existed, but now it's like really, you know, in the forefront of, you know, gender politics and also the gender discussion in this country.
Marc:And I'm still like an old man when it comes.
Marc:Like, you know, I had to be schooled on the word tranny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, and then I talked to RuPaul, who loves that word, but like I understand.
Guest:It's a very like divisive word.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:And I get why.
Marc:And like, and I'm in no position necessarily to use that.
Marc:I don't need to use that word, you know, but RuPaul can.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know.
Marc:But, all right, so now you're married, and now these feelings are becoming oppressive and completely uncomfortable.
Marc:So do you tell your wife?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I came out, yeah.
Marc:Well, what does that mean?
Marc:When you come out like that, what do you say?
Guest:Well, I dealt with these feelings to the point where I was like, this isn't going away.
Guest:So I was like- I need to be a woman.
Guest:Or I need to.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, just like, you know, transitioning.
Guest:The idea of whatever that meant of like coming out with the way I felt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And saying like, look, I'm transgender.
Guest:I'm a transsexual.
Guest:This is the way I feel.
Guest:I want to transition.
Guest:I don't know what that means, but I want to transition.
Guest:Like, I mean, the level of information out there was like pretty like...
Guest:it's like youtube testimonial videos you know like a couple fucking lo-fi websites that like point you in directions you know and i was like living in la at the time like staying up like watching these testimonial videos right and it's like okay i think you can get on hormones you know like okay there's doctors that can do surgeries like i don't fucking know where to turn to so you know but you were you were like you were sort of like i gotta start this yeah i mean what'd your wife say
Guest:um i you know she said okay like that's okay you know like i like i just came out to her and said like i'm i'm i'm a transsexual i'm i want to transition and i don't she didn't know what that had you been a practicing transsexual what does that mean right
Guest:practicing I'm practicing my transsexualism like I guess I mean like did you dress you know did you find a dress and femme sure yeah and totally and like that would but like I have a lifestyle that like I spent a lot of time alone and sometimes I'm like really by myself like when I'm working with a band producing a record and I'm living in a hotel room or I'm sure I'm on tour I have a really separate life from that so it was like I was living two lives and
Guest:yeah i was fucking living half a life in a hotel room and when i was in a hotel room i was you know expressing the way i felt i was her or whatever you're putting on makeup and like dressing and like wearing the clothes yeah dressing wearing the clothes yeah wearing women's clothes mark
Guest:Yeah, but it was, it's fucked up.
Guest:I'm not shy.
Guest:No, but it's a terrible experience like that because, you know, you're, you're in this like stupid fucking high stress situation where you're like, okay, you know, I got to go into some shitty department store to buy clothes that I don't even want to wear really because it's not my style, but this is the only way I can fucking like relax and, and,
Guest:express this fucking way I feel to calm this tension that I feel inside of me because otherwise I'm going to fucking snap on someone and just lose it.
Marc:That's profound.
Marc:And then I guess what you're saying is that because you were living this separate life and it was really limited to these hotel rooms when you were working that it's hard not to associate that with the idea of shame.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, you feel like you're almost having an affair and you are hiding something, you know, and it's like, why can't I just fucking be who I am whenever I want to be who I am?
Marc:So you're in this hotel, right?
Marc:So you're in this hotel room losing your mind and you're like, I just need to like what pieces of clothing would be most comforting?
Guest:what pieces of clothing you go to a department store and what do you buy a dress you buy a robe do you buy some panties what do you do panties is a gross word i don't know isn't it a gross word um you just like whatever fucking even like a fucking woman's cut shirt a woman's cut tent top like anything to express femininity yeah and then you'd feel better like you'd be like oh
Guest:yeah i feel like okay i'm like expressing the way i feel even though it's like a weird fucked up version of it right it's not like it's that that was even more dysphoric than just being as i am now but you know that changes the experience being out with it now it's a totally different thing it's not like i get off by going to a fucking department store now and buying panties and going to a hotel room
Guest:And then fucking going to a hotel and rubbing them or something.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:And I didn't think that to begin with, but it was really the idea of... Because I think everyone or most people deal with a discomfort that seems like it can't be resolved.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that you were able to address it so specifically and have to reckon with...
Marc:that and not feel ashamed of it or feel like a freak for it other than the you know the idea that you were hiding something you know it's a it's a big it's a big step right obviously and to realize you had to take it and then to take it is you know it's it's big because i think that you know a lot of people that have the same feelings just die with them
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's the case.
Guest:I mean, well, if you look at suicide statistics among the transgender community, you know, it's like something like 50% at least attempt, you know.
Marc:It's horrible.
Guest:You didn't.
Guest:No, but I've been slowly trying to kill myself for the past 34 years with alcohol and drugs as a result of that.
Guest:You know, I mean, I feel like that was the unhealthy side of it.
Marc:So you don't do any drugs or alcohol anymore.
Guest:i do but um i i mean that's like now it's just fun now no no seriously it is now it's just recreational and not fucking dysphoria and like related you know yeah i guess okay you say so
Guest:I guess you'll deal with that other shit later maybe.
Guest:Let's do a part two to this podcast.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I've talked to you in a few years.
Guest:See how you're happy-go-lucky drug use.
Guest:I'm just talking about smoking a little weed.
Guest:Oh, there's nothing wrong with that.
Guest:Yeah, it don't matter.
Guest:But the lyrics in this fucking record deals with all that.
Marc:You deal with the suicidal, with the suicide of people that can't live with it or whatever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you deal with your own sort of wrestling with it.
Marc:You deal with the, and I always assume that people write these from first person.
Marc:But the idea of being totally closeted and being a bully is in here, is in this record.
Marc:And then the discomfort, the first song is really the transgender, the title song, Dysphoria Blues, is like, to me, it's a powerful fucking song, man.
Guest:Well, that's what talking about, like, that experience, you know, going into those department stores or going into, like, you know, whatever store when you're perceived as male and you're buying something and the cash register is looking at you like, you're disgusting.
Guest:You know, like, they don't even want to take the money out of your hand.
Marc:But what about now?
Marc:I thought, like, some of that song had to do with... Oh, I mean, it's not like that's gone.
Guest:right like the idea that you have to you know you have to honor yourself and you have to honor your feelings and be who you need to be but you cannot escape the judgment of of being physically who you are of other people right but by owning it like i've been able to like feel a lot more comfortable and confident in a in a fuck you way in the in a punk rock way of like okay when you're hiding it you feel shameful and that in turn makes you feel defensive and
Guest:closed off as opposed to being open about it and just being out there and being like look I am who I am you know like you may not fully understand that and I don't really care but I am who I am and I have a right to be here I have a right to shop in the store I have a right to do this do that do whatever whatever I want to do and I don't have to explain it to you or justify it to you right I'm just gonna do it right and if you have a problem yeah I get it fuck you yeah it's your problem hope you can deal with that problem yeah
Guest:You know, whereas before you felt scared and I didn't want to feel scared, you know?
Marc:Well, yeah, it's easy to feel scared if you, you know, you're going like you want to be understood on your own terms and not misunderstood because you're caught doing something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Like, you know, because then you're all of a sudden you got you're in that weird explaining yourself position.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was something I thought about too, having a kid where I was like, what, am I going to be like 50, 60 years old and I'm going to get caught and like, you know, like be in that, like, I don't want that situation.
Guest:Well, how old's the kid?
Guest:My daughter is now five.
Marc:And how, how is that all with the X and stuff?
Guest:Um, we're not in a good spot.
Guest:Not really, you know, we don't really talk.
Marc:But did the separation have to do with you actually, you know, engaging in the transition process?
Marc:I mean, was it something she couldn't handle?
Guest:No, I mean, I think it's all on me.
Guest:You know, like I had a suicidal nervous breakdown about a year after coming out and I just like dissolved as a person, you know, I would like really.
Marc:But you didn't attempt suicide.
Marc:i i did yeah uh-huh wow how yeah pills and alcohol yeah classic well you know go with the class yeah but but this is a year in a year after you came out and what what broke apart inside you
Guest:It was a combination of things.
Guest:There was the mental side where I legitimately lost the foundation of why I was transitioning because I saw that my marriage had gotten so far away from me because I had been like...
Guest:I was scared, was working on a record, transitioning publicly.
Guest:I had a studio, so I was just locking myself in my studio 10 hours a day working on a record, which I legitimately needed to do.
Guest:Was it this record?
Guest:Yeah, but also I was hiding.
Guest:And then realizing my marriage had fallen apart and just that crushed me.
Guest:But then at the same time too, I started having this weird reaction to the hormone replacement therapy I was on.
Guest:And so it turned out once I moved to Chicago and I got medical help that I had been living with a parasitic infection in my intestines.
Guest:And so at the time I had been on estrogen, progesterone and spironolactone.
Guest:And so apparently the progesterone had been converting into pregnazone, which was causing these like crazy hot flashes.
Guest:And I was like waking up in the middle of the night and like my arms would be clenched to my chest and I couldn't take them down.
Guest:And I would be like burning with sweat, take a shower, come out and it'd be like 60 degrees in the hotel room.
Guest:And I was just messed up.
Guest:And living in Florida, going through transition, you know, like it's just totally different than other places where there was like one doctor I could see, one therapist I could see dealing with gender.
Guest:And so I called the endocrinologist I was dealing with.
Guest:This was in June at the time.
Guest:And they're like, the soonest you can be seen is August.
Guest:So it was just like terrible healthcare.
Guest:I was in a bad situation and had to, and was really messed up, you know, and it all kind of like was a perfect storm.
Guest:Like a tree fell through the roof of my studio too and destroyed it.
Guest:My bass player quit.
Guest:My drummer had already quit.
Guest:Like I was just- Why'd they quit?
Guest:various reasons yeah i mean like really the drummer and the bass player are totally separate things the drummer is just kind of a jerk um and the bass player was a dear friend time for him to move on unrelated to that you know like that's the tough thing going through a lot of this stuff even in relation to my ex of that's obviously what it seems like then is like you defer to the fact of like oh you're transitioning is it related to that why like certain things fell apart
Guest:sometimes I wonder about that, but at the same time, like it did set off a chain of like a bunch of changes are now going to take place within your life, you know?
Guest:And a lot of that is just the way it is in life.
Guest:It's a reasonable question.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:And I don't mind accepting all the blame for anything.
Guest:I just would hate to ever put blame or put any kind of guilt on someone else.
Marc:Oh, if you didn't know that for sure, that's what they were reacting to.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I can't say that about anyone.
Guest:And if they do feel that way, then that's fine and fair and that's totally cool.
Guest:But I would hate for them to ever feel guilt for feeling anything like that.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:So you're empathetic to the struggle that they may have within themselves.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Everyone processes the news of someone coming out in that way in a different way, I think.
Marc:Well, I think it's like coming out in this way is a relatively...
Marc:newish thing.
Marc:You know, because I, like you said, I mean, I don't know that, you know, everywhere you can just make this decision and enact it and enact it.
Marc:I mean, coming out as a gay person, I mean, that's sort of been around a while.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, something sort of like, because there's more to understand, I would think, for some people.
Marc:I'm like,
Marc:Wait, so how far is this going to go?
Marc:How are you oriented?
Marc:There's other questions.
Marc:If someone says, I'm gay, they're like, oh, okay.
Marc:So that's what you are then.
Marc:But this is a little more complicated in a way.
Guest:I think in a way, though, that also those questions, which are really heavily placed on you when you first come out, can often...
Guest:like create this pressure on a trans person that's unrealistic because you're asking someone who's trans to explain something they don't understand totally.
Guest:They're just taking a step and they're saying, I identify in a way that's different than you probably identify.
Guest:We're going to call that trans.
Guest:Now I'm taking the step to figuring out what that means and figuring out what I want to do.
Guest:Maybe that means hormone replacement therapy.
Guest:Maybe that means eventual surgeries, but it doesn't always have to.
Guest:right you know sure so placing this pressure to like you have to give an answer now you're going to get surgery you're going on hormones what are you going to do you know like yeah yeah it creates this like mindfuck of a pressure like cooker where you're just like i don't know i don't know and especially when you do it publicly and you're like doing interviews and people want to you have to have like this so that set of answers so that happens that was pressure yeah yeah and that contributed to the breakdown i think so like you like should i know the answer to these questions do i do i need to do it to appease them
Guest:It gets in your head where you're like, what am I doing that's reactionary?
Guest:Or what am I doing because I need to fit into someone else's understanding of an interpretation of gender?
Guest:Or what am I doing because it actually makes me feel more right in my body?
Guest:That's hard to do in the public eye.
Guest:That's hard to do out of the public eye.
Guest:That's hard to do in general.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:It's interesting to me because I have my own...
Marc:Like, I don't know how to talk about it.
Marc:I'd imagine that most people don't know how to talk about it.
Marc:This is the best way to talk about it, though, I think.
Marc:No, no, absolutely.
Marc:But, like, I'd imagine the reactionary kind of, like, sensationalizing thing in a conversation publicly about this in a press situation.
Marc:They may not be trying to be sensationalistic.
Marc:They're just sort of like, what's happening?
Marc:What are you going to do now?
Marc:Do you have a vagina?
Marc:When does that happen?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that what year it is in progress?
Marc:I mean, like, I think there's a, there's a fascination that may or may not come from the right place, but it's still there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, and I, I never really, I guess the, the empathy necessary for, for, for the culture to sort of understand that you don't have those answers is a new thing.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And it's, you know, it's a, it's, it's interesting.
Marc:This is like, this is new, new shit.
Marc:It's a brave new world.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Uh huh.
Marc:Because I go up like I've made bad jokes before in my life.
Marc:But sometimes I think that in order for a culture to transition with you, you know, a lot of times people are just laughing because they're uncomfortable.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's a legitimate like response that happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and it's a much better one than violence.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or fuck you or immediate boxing of the person.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:I mean, it is a sign of internalized transphobia that you've been ingrained with by growing up in a society that is transphobic.
Guest:You know, that's taught to you.
Guest:That's taught to me.
Guest:That's what like instilled.
Guest:That's how I knew without.
Guest:It wasn't like my parents sat me down one day and they were like, don't be transsexual.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah, that wasn't even on the menu.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:So you learn about it because you see like, oh, sensationalized like headlines in like supermarket stands.
Guest:Oh, Silence of the Lambs.
Guest:Oh, like Ace Ventura.
Guest:Oh, like, you know, all these things are thrown at you where it's usually the butt of the joke.
Guest:It's a scary thing.
Guest:It's obviously an unacceptable thing.
Guest:It's a laughable thing most of the time.
Guest:But that's just instilled in you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but also the thing that cuts through all that.
Marc:I mean, you know, I think more than, you know, whatever values someone might have or whatever ideas or expectations they might have.
Marc:It's it confronts their sexuality.
Guest:But that's that's like part of it.
Guest:Why, you know, it's a conversation I've had with a friend of mine specifically in regards to transgender women.
Guest:You know, and the levels of violence that, you know, like they're subject to often.
Guest:And like, why is it a violent reaction?
Guest:And it has to do with, you know, whether or not it challenges your sexuality of like, so you look at a woman, right?
Guest:And you check her out and then you realize maybe, oh shit, that woman has a dick, right?
Guest:And that challenges your sexuality.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:But also, like, you're looking at the woman because it's a sexist patriarchal society.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's most men's immediate thing they do when they look at a woman.
Guest:But I'm not saying... You know, they're, like, checking her out.
Guest:And then they realize, like, oh, this person doesn't fit what I thought they fit.
Guest:And now this somehow is an affront to my sexuality.
Marc:But it does sort of provoke something where it's sort of like it's initially confusing.
Marc:And if feelings happen within somebody, you know, how they're going to interpret them.
Marc:Like, it's a new experience.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That is sexual.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, in that context, it's a sexual experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm saying that the root of that has to do with more of like that it's a sexist society.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And that that's the way it works.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I also say to back up for a second or on a related note or whatever, too, if you look at the number of people looking at transsexual porn on the Internet, it's cis men.
Guest:You know, like those are the people who are looking at transsexual porn.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:are are straight men sure you know like so what does that say then too yeah it's okay to do it in the closet but if you're caught doing it in real life then you like it's i don't know if i'd assume that they're all closeted because they're watching that porn there might not be no i'm just saying they don't know how to interpret what they're feeling you know they don't realize that that they're attracted to that person because they're a woman despite the fact that their genitals might be a little different than another woman's but in my experience with all the women that i've slept with they all have pretty different pussies or fucking whatever you know like they do
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Same with Cox.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:What was the point of getting into that?
Marc:I don't remember.
Guest:We were just riffing, I thought.
Marc:So where are you at with the whole thing?
Marc:With the whole thing?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I'm just living.
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:I'm just living.
Marc:living you know I feel in a good place but in the treatments and they're like how does it you know where'd you level off I mean you went through you had the nervous breakdown you're on medicine and and hormones and estrogen that were not balanced properly is that something you know as you transition that you you wean yourself off of do you hit a level with it no well can you taking these pills
Guest:I mean, it's, well, it depends on who you go to, but like, so there was the level I was getting of healthcare in Florida.
Guest:When I moved to Chicago, Chicago's informed consent where you can go into a doctor, say, this is what I'm doing.
Guest:And you get access to hormones.
Guest:Got much better healthcare in Chicago.
Guest:And then I've been on injectables since I've lived in Chicago.
Marc:And that's something you have to just keep doing.
Guest:yeah once a week you give yourself a shot and and and you're you're you're leveled off with uh with the process now i don't know i don't know you're good i mean i again i'm i feel way more comfortable about myself i'm happy i'm doing what i'm doing it's really hard to transition when you tour like uh traveling it's hard for me to get refills of prescription you know like it's hard for me to make appointments to go through things like electrolysis you know
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:All this stuff is stuff I think about constantly.
Guest:It's not like all of a sudden I was like, and I'm just doing me.
Marc:But do you feel like now that you're into it, what has it been, two years?
Marc:2012 is when I came out.
Marc:So three years?
Marc:2013, I don't even remember.
Marc:But since you've actively been doing the therapies to transition, it's been like three years?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, are you feeling like I guess my question is around, you know, what you were freaking out about before in terms of the questions, you know, like like now that you've sort of started this thing.
Marc:Are you like, OK, or do you are you looking to do more?
Guest:I feel.
Guest:like that I have a much better understanding of what I need and what makes me feel right than I did three years ago certainly more than I did 10 years ago 20 years ago right but I feel like that in another three years another four years another five years I will even have an even better understanding of who I am and what I need I don't think that that's something that you can ever fully feel like complete with or anything really at least for me huh
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:I mean, but that's sort of like, to me, like it's a, it's, it's sort of like, like with drugs or something like that, or, or that feeling of not being complete in other ways, you know, like that, is there something, are you doing anything else around the psychology of, of dysphoria that isn't, you know, transition related?
Marc:Did you ever address other issues to your discomfort mentally or,
Guest:I'm trying to, you know, like I, I am an existentialist, you know, and I, like, I oftentimes feel locked in thinking about things and thinking about the bigger picture of things and what certain things mean.
Guest:And, you know, I don't know how to reconcile with my life beyond where my tour dates end.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and that that's like, I live a really weird life.
Marc:I know, but like, well, what if you were to quiet it down?
Marc:I mean, what do you, like, I, like, see, like I'm a guy, I'm a recovery guy.
Marc:So I, I haven't done shit in like 15, 16 years, you know, that, that was my problem.
Marc:right but do i feel whole and complete all the time no i feel better about myself i feel comfortable in my skin but there's still something like you know what does it all mean what's the fucking point yeah so you know that hasn't gone away no i very much still have that yeah that's there i don't want that to go away in a way you know i know i think that's healthy sure it is yeah but you should have some peace of mind
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's a trip, you know, like.
Marc:And like, I can't imagine.
Marc:I didn't mean to cut you out, but I can't imagine that like it took me like, you know, years.
Marc:Like, I don't think I arrived in my body until maybe five or six years ago.
Marc:Just, you know, when I started to get successful and feel like that I'd worked very hard all my life to do something.
Marc:It was a self-esteem problem.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, and it just sort of happened organically, but I felt it happen.
Marc:So, I imagine on some level that, you know, you taking this, you know, making this transition has given you some of that.
Marc:I mean, your self-esteem must be better and your comfort level.
Marc:A hundred percent.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:My problems now, I guess, are more just like normal problems of like, oh, I'm going through another divorce, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:oh I gotta deal with the fact that like I work and I travel and I have a kid and how do I balance like traveling life with having a kid and being able to be a part of my kids life when I'm not necessarily getting along with the mother you know like those are just like the realities of life that everyone has those are minimal problems to what other people's problems are you know I have it really good in that I enjoy what I do I really love playing music I really love traveling how's the community responded to all this
Guest:um you mean the community as in like music community punks the punks have been really supportive and really cool yeah a hundred percent no dicks there's been some dicks but i mean there's always a couple dicks and then like like people don't read the comments but you know no but i mean bigger i mean bigger dicks i mean like are there any is there have you had any experience with people that you respected or other musicians that have have reacted poorly
Marc:No.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:No.
Marc:Uh-uh.
Marc:Isn't that something?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's been really surprising, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In a great way.
Guest:And the bandmates?
Guest:Bandmates, totally cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:It's really not that big of a deal, I think, is what most people get after a second.
Guest:They're just like, oh, okay, you just would prefer me to use feminine pronouns with you, and then we're going to practice at the same time, and we're going to go on tour, and we'll hang out and have a fun time, and you still have the same sense of humor and like the same things.
Guest:And you just look a little more ladylike.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cool.
Guest:That's what we're doing.
Guest:You know, like, great.
Guest:Easy.
Guest:Do you get attention from men?
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:I mean, sexual attention since you've transitioned this much.
Guest:i i guess i don't come on you want to look sexy don't you sometimes you want to look pretty don't you sure yeah i mean like i liked you know i'm the singer in a band i'm a little bit like arrogant in vain too where i think like everyone maybe has a thing for me to a certain extent so i guess that's the way i carry myself through the world right you know well that's good that's i think that's a good rock and roll position to have right
Marc:All right, so the new record's done.
Marc:You're touring on this record.
Marc:And you're big.
Marc:I feel bad because I'm so out of the loop, but I mean, you have a big following.
Marc:You're a popular band.
Guest:We have a modest following that I'm very happy with, and I really like our fans.
Marc:Believe me, I understand.
Marc:I have a modest following as well.
Guest:Wasn't that modest of me?
Marc:It was pretty good.
Marc:But how's your ego?
Marc:Do you want more?
Marc:Do you always want more?
Marc:Do you want to be big?
Marc:Do you want to stadium rock?
Guest:I mean, everyone does.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:It makes me paralyzed with fear.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Well, I'm a stand-up, though, and it's very personal in a way that's just me up there.
Marc:So the idea of me performing for 10,000 people, it's sort of like, what could they want from me?
Guest:Honestly, like I'm happy that anyone wants to see me.
Guest:I mean that like genuinely.
Guest:Of course, like you want to feel like you're progressing and doing new things.
Guest:And I don't want to feel like I'm just playing the same club over and over and over again, you know, and that it's never changing.
Guest:So you do want to feel like growth.
Guest:That's like natural.
Guest:I feel like in a healthy thing and ambition is a good thing.
Guest:Um, and wanting to feel like you're reaching more people, especially it's so hard in the music industry these days where things are so skewed, where it's like, you know, like each record we've sold or each record we put out last three records has charted higher, but like ultimately sold less.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like it's sold less for sure, but the chart position is higher.
Guest:So like you, you know, you,
Guest:You want some sign that you're still relevant in the music industry?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Well, I mean, sometimes it's just about the people who come.
Marc:You know, sales are tricky, you know?
Marc:I've only really talked to, I've talked to some, you know, big old dudes, you know, musician-wise, and a few young dudes.
Marc:But the only other real, like, honest punk that I talked to was, you know, Patrick Stickles from Titus Andronicus.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's a piece of work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:but like you know it seems like you guys i mean in a good way he's he's he's yeah he's something but like it seems like you know when you're at the level you're at it's just about touring constantly yeah totally yeah and but that's what we've always been you know we we've always been a band that was about and you've got original guys with you still um my best friend james who i met on the first day of high school is my guitar player still to this day so yeah
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:You get along.
Marc:And Fat Mike plays on your records?
Marc:He played on a couple songs on that record, on Transgender Dysphoria Blues, yeah.
Marc:Good record.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And what about, how's your mom handling all this?
Marc:My mom's great.
Guest:She's been really supportive.
Marc:From the get-go?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did she experience concern initially?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:I mean, she's a mom.
Guest:She worries.
Guest:She's a parent.
Guest:I think she just wants me to be happy, ultimately.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah that is what they want you think i think so i think yeah i would hope that and your brother my brother's totally cool yeah just the dad he's not he might not come around i i hope maybe i don't know you know i don't know how to do that that's a that was complicated regardless of of genetics for you do what do you have do you visualize anything i mean do you see do you want something what do you want
Guest:I feel like that even though I'm 34 years old, that I'm still allowed to be the kid.
Guest:And that if they're the parent that, you know, you come to me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Be my parent.
Guest:You're going to hold out.
Guest:I am.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, we'll see what happens.
Marc:Check back in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Nice talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's the show.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:I love her, and I liked her music.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed that conversation, the talk.
Marc:Hope you dug the talk.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Check the calendar.
Marc:Boulder dates are coming up fast, and Denver dates are coming up fast.
Marc:That's Boulder, July 24th at the Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado.
Marc:And Denver, July 25th at the Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado.
Marc:Portland this weekend is sold out.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:On Thursday, I'll be talking to Ed Asner.
Marc:And also we'll have a little shorty with Adam Goldberg, which was fun.
Marc:So look forward to that.
Thank you.
.
.
Guest:Boomer Lives!