Episode 615 - Penelope Spheeris
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuck abilities?
Marc:What the fuck, Minster Fullers?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:It's Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Back to business as usual, I guess it would be.
Marc:There was the open with fuck words intact, which were removed from my mouth out of respect for the president of the United States of America.
Marc:Now, am I going to...
Marc:Milk that?
Marc:No.
Marc:I feel like it was all done very nicely, and it's a memory in my mind.
Marc:I still have not.
Marc:I will be honest with you.
Marc:I still have not watched any television since I talked to the president of the United States.
Marc:But now we're back.
Marc:We're back to the show.
Marc:And it might be a slight adjustment, but things go on.
Marc:Life goes on.
Marc:The president had a big week.
Marc:I had a big week.
Marc:Not comparing.
Marc:Obviously, he had some bigger responsibilities than I did.
Marc:I am in New York City currently.
Marc:I am recording this over the weekend.
Marc:I just did Portchester on Thursday, which was fun.
Marc:Last night, I did the Howard Opera House at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, which was amazing.
Marc:2,000 people there.
Marc:Before I tell you about what's happening in my life, can I tell you that I have some gigs coming up that I would like people to come to?
Marc:Primarily Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado.
Marc:The Boulder Theater is Friday, July 24th.
Marc:Saturday, July 25th, I'll be at the Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado.
Marc:Those are coming.
Marc:I believe that Portland is sold out for the 10th and the 11th at the Aladdin and Revolution Hall, two different places.
Marc:But the Colorado dates.
Marc:So if you need to see me and these are the only dates that you have open, fly to Colorado.
Marc:I will say this, though, that Penelope Spheres is on the show, and her daughter will join us as well briefly at the end, Anna Fox.
Marc:They work together.
Marc:Penelope Spheres is the director of, I guess most people would know her for Wayne's World, but more importantly, she did the decline movies, the decline in Western Civilization 1, 2, and 3, the first one being punk rock, the second one being metal, and the third one being the Krusty Punks.
Marc:But the first two, which I'm most familiar with, are fucking great movies.
Marc:Decline of Western Civilization Part 2 is sort of this weird, life-changing movie for whatever reason.
Marc:And they sent me the box from Shout Factory, which is where you can get them.
Marc:I watched the first one, which I hadn't seen in years.
Marc:And a lot of it focused on X and John Doe, who I've had on the show.
Marc:And to see him as a young, sort of sweaty, kind of high dude was wild, man.
Marc:Age will humble us all.
Marc:So you know what I don't talk about enough?
Marc:I actually don't talk about my TV show on IFC enough.
Marc:Marin on IFC is in its third season.
Marc:And I think it's truly the best season we've done.
Marc:It's the funniest season.
Marc:And it's on Thursday nights at 10 o'clock on IFC, wherever you are, wherever you may be.
Marc:And I'm trying to, you know, I'm just I'm proud of the show.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:And because I shot it a while ago and it seems far away from me, I sometimes forget that it's there.
Marc:And I'd like you to watch it because it's funny.
Marc:This week is a good one on Thursday.
Marc:It's the Professor of Desire episode written by the amazing Jerry Stahl, starring me and Adam Goldberg.
Marc:And it's a little crazy.
Marc:It's a little dark, a little sexy.
Marc:But it's a good one.
Marc:So do that.
Marc:I can plug myself a little.
Marc:Can I?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think I can.
Marc:Where am I going tonight?
Marc:Well, I'm going to be doing Huntington, Long Island, and I'm going to be doing New Jersey, Red Bank, New Jersey.
Marc:And I've been told, I've been informed that...
Marc:That my father will be joining me in Red Bank, New Jersey.
Marc:I don't think I've seen my father in months.
Marc:His sister lives down there.
Marc:So I'll have something to report to you next week about the excitement of the old man in whatever condition he's going to be in showing up at the show.
Marc:And I think that's why I'm a little heavy hearted.
Marc:I'm a little skittish.
Marc:I'm a little weirded out.
Marc:I know I just talked to the president, and that's wonderful.
Marc:And my father, he seemed to be somewhat impressed.
Marc:I think he sent me an email saying, maybe this means you can be on television interviewing people, which I think is reasonable.
Marc:I don't think it was that contentious.
Marc:But I'll let you know how it goes when I see him over the weekend here.
Marc:Yeah, so I got a little more tour left, and then what happens?
Marc:I seriously think I'm going to have to take a little break from comedy.
Marc:It's been rough going in a lot of ways in terms of just doing all the dates.
Marc:They've been great.
Marc:I taped the special, but now I got to go back to the drawing board.
Marc:Who is Marc Maron now?
Marc:Who is Marc Maron post-taping of comedy special and post-discussion or conversation with the president?
Marc:Got to sort that stuff out.
Marc:Maybe you should hit the lecture circuit, something like that.
Marc:Or maybe I should just hole up.
Marc:I'm really looking for a way to just hole up.
Marc:That's my dream.
Marc:I've shared it before.
Marc:Just a disconnect.
Marc:See you later.
Marc:Not engaging anymore.
Marc:Anyways, I was happy to have Penelope Spheres and I got Rich Voss on Thursday.
Marc:People thought I was kidding when I said I'd be following President Obama with Rich Voss.
Marc:But it's true.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:And I'll be home for the 4th of July, which is always exciting in my neighborhood.
Marc:I can just go into my neighbor Dennis's yard.
Marc:And Dennis, of course, is the guy who had the snipers on his roof.
Marc:I guess I'm going to be referring to it quite a bit.
Marc:I will say this about Portland.
Marc:There's going to be bring a little extra bread if you can.
Marc:Brian Jones, the guy who makes the WTF mugs, the hand-thrown mugs, the potter dude up in Portland is going to be selling them at the shows.
Marc:And there's a limited supply of those, but he will be there.
Marc:But, you know, it's the Fourth of July, man.
Marc:I remember doing it here in New York.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I did another one of these articles where some kid from The Voice, he's like, can we walk around the Lower East Side?
Marc:And just being in New York in the summer, the weather's been perfect for once.
Marc:It's starting to rain today, but I've had two amazing days.
Marc:You know, the humidity, the pressure cooker has not really started.
Marc:But, man, did I spend some sweaty days.
Marc:Just sweating out toxins, running around the Lower East Side, doing comedy in my shorts.
Marc:Yeah, a little nostalgic.
Marc:A little nostalgic.
Oh, my God.
Marc:I just, I can't believe the life.
Marc:I can't believe the life.
Marc:I am grateful.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:I'm grateful today.
Marc:Do that.
Marc:Why don't you do that?
Marc:You know, until I get my aggravated chops back.
Marc:Be thankful for your life.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:It's hard, but Jesus, man.
Marc:Surprising.
Marc:Surprising where it can take you.
Marc:So right now, let's go to the garage and talk to Penelope Spheris.
Marc:This is a good interview, man.
Marc:There's a lot of stuff that I didn't really realize about her.
Marc:She's been a lot of places.
Marc:She knows a lot of people.
Marc:She's made some good movies.
Marc:And she's a pip.
Marc:And the relationship between her and her daughter is pretty touching.
Marc:And I enjoyed talking to them.
Marc:You can get the Decline box, Decline of Western Civilization 1, 2, and 3 at Shout Factory.
Marc:All right, let's do that.
Marc:Let's talk to Penelope Spears.
Marc:Penelope Spheris.
Marc:Spheris.
Guest:Like a sphere.
Marc:Spheris.
Marc:What kind of name is that?
Guest:Oh, it's Greek.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:And that's the whole of it?
Guest:um no my mom was irish yeah my father came from greece and my mom came from kansas really yes that's exotic so you was your mother like uh oh my god a greek man well he he actually um owned a carnival my dad did and he was traveling through town uh-huh and he was she was she was 19 and he was 40.
Marc:Your mother ran off with the carnival.
Guest:Basically, yes.
Guest:40 and 19?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He already had a family and he just ditched them and then picked up my mom on the street and then they got married and he had four more kids, yeah, with her.
Marc:So you have a whole set of siblings from half siblings?
Guest:No, they're full.
Guest:Well, you mean that whole other family, they really totally ditched out on them.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I only just have my brother, two brothers and a sister.
Marc:You have no idea about those people.
Guest:Well, they tried to get a house from us that was supposed to be ours at one point, but then I had to go fight with them and I won.
Guest:really yeah what was that what do you mean because it was in arkansas because my dad had a home in arkansas when we weren't traveling around he would go we would go there and so the other family tried to snag the home and so yeah and it was a terrible awful fight because you know it reminded me of my father dying and so it just like brought up all that horrible stuff so this was years later
Guest:Yeah, that was years later.
Marc:That home stayed in the family?
Marc:That was in the 80s.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That home stayed in the family that long?
Guest:Yeah, my mom just kind of let it sit there and some lawyer dude just took the money and they never sent it to us.
Guest:My brothers and sisters and I were raised in trailer parks after the carnival.
Marc:Okay, so you're born, your father's first family split, so it's your mom who's 20 years, 21 years younger than your dad.
Marc:You're the oldest?
Marc:Oldest.
Marc:So, and there were two other ones?
Guest:My sister, Linda, and then my brother, Jimmy, who was a singer, and he passed away, he got killed by a drunk driver in 84.
Guest:And then my brother, Andy, who's still with us, yes.
Marc:And you traveled in the carnival.
Guest:Up until when I was almost seven, we traveled in the carnival.
Guest:But I think your personality is pretty much formed by the time you're that age.
Marc:Do you have a carnival personality?
Guest:I believe I do.
Guest:And I think, Mark, that's why I kind of fit into the movie business.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, yeah.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:yes and and and it was both for me as well and i have lots of memories of the sawdust on the midway and i have lots of actually have lots of photos uh and a little bit of moving footage of um the carnival and my daughter anna fox who i work with uh is going to be or she's already she got a cut on a movie about the same subject so oh yeah oh yeah it's a good movie it's a good piece it really is because
Guest:about the carnival yes um a documentary about your life about my life and more my mother's life on the carnival and the fact that my father was murdered in troy alabama in a racial incident in 1951 yes that's that's what happened and so that's why we had to give up the carnival
Marc:Wow.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So leading up to that, I mean, what was your mother's job at the carnival?
Marc:It seems like in a carnival, everybody has a part to play.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Everybody pitches in.
Guest:Well, mainly my mom was the ticket taker.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I would sit like right in the ticket box there when the people came in and paid.
Guest:And she would take their money and give them some tickets and they would go in.
Guest:And my dad was a strong man.
Guest:He was a wrestler, actually.
Guest:And so...
Guest:He would do what they call free acts outside, and he would stand out there and do things like put chains on his arms and let cars drive away, and all the wheels would spin, and he would be like the strongest man in the whole wide world.
Guest:Did you believe it?
Guest:Oh, yeah, totally.
Guest:You never saw the trick?
Guest:Well, they did put a little oil under the tires.
Marc:So, now, was there other oddities at the carnival?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it wasn't like an animal-based carnival, because that's more a circus.
Guest:The carnival that I was on, it was mostly just freaks.
Guest:What kind of freaks?
Guest:Psychics and gypsies and stuff.
Guest:What kind of freaks?
Guest:Well, you know, there's your basic...
Guest:fat lady can i say that on the air babies in jars were there babies in jars no that's really funny no oh dear um fat ladies okay yeah that's fine fat ladies and bearded ladies and siamese twins you had siamese twins we did actually and there are pictures of old siamese twins my mom used to go oh there's violet and daisy i mean violet and daisy well my mom would know these characters because they were on the carnival
Marc:But Violet and Daisy were on your carnival?
Guest:I mean, yeah, I'm just making these names up at this point.
Guest:But yeah, they were people that my mom recognized.
Marc:I knew Ronnie and Donnie.
Marc:Ronnie and Donnie were the ones that toured.
Guest:Are those the Wahlbergs?
Marc:That would be terrifying.
Guest:They were twin.
Marc:They were Siamese twins.
Marc:Donnie and Mark Wahlberg, Siamese twin, which is constantly beating each other over the head.
Marc:That would be so... With their Boston accents.
Marc:With their spare arm.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I saw Ronnie and Donnie.
Marc:And yeah, and I know there was a... I just became very fascinated.
Marc:So you had Bearded Lady.
Marc:You had the Fat Lady.
Marc:You had Siamese... That's a full freak show.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And so that's why when I got into the film business, it was like a full freak show.
Guest:So I was pretty comfy with it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But do you have recollections of, were all these people nice people?
Marc:Was there sort of a community setting?
Marc:Did you eat together?
Guest:Oh, my mom cooked and took the tickets.
Guest:And she would cook for like 100 people.
Guest:That's fascinating.
Guest:And it was a family.
Guest:And that's why when I did the Decline movies, those punk rock kids that were kind of like thrust out from their families, to me, I felt like it was the same as the people on the carnival.
Guest:They kind of reform a family.
Marc:Yeah, punk rock was definitely a carnival and a freak show.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:But what happened with your father?
Marc:Let's get to that and move up through the rest of it.
Marc:I mean, what happened?
Guest:Well, there was a black guy that was a young man, actually, probably late teens, early 20s, that had joined the carnival.
Guest:And a lady had twisted her foot and ankle, whatever, and he had been told to go get some ice.
Guest:So he stepped in front of some people who were waiting to buy ice cream.
Uh-huh.
Guest:And to get some ice and a guy in the line got mad because he didn't want a black guy get in front of him.
Guest:So he hit him on the back of the neck with a cane and hurt him pretty bad.
Guest:And he went to tell my dad about it.
Guest:And when my dad approached the man, it was in Troy, Alabama.
Guest:My dad approached the man.
Guest:He pulled out a gun and shot him.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:that is insane and and and we're talking early 50s here so mark what do you think did the guy go to jail or not and troy alabama no no not for very long not at all not at all no he was my father was wrong because he was protecting a black man was the premise of the defense
Marc:But did they say it was self-defense or something?
Marc:That was enough?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know what the laws were, but obviously segregation was still enforced and in place.
Guest:Big time.
Marc:Horrible.
Guest:My dad used to take us around to his friends' houses that were kind of in the backwoods through the south.
Guest:That's mostly where we were.
Guest:And we would go and visit his friends along the roads, along the highways there in...
Guest:um black families who were really wonderful people and when we on the way back my dad would say okay don't tell anybody on a carnival we did that now because they're not going to understand really and that was the carnival they're pretty liberal minded yeah so your but your father didn't really see color lines you know because he's an immigrant himself my mom either yeah i learned from a young age yeah yeah and after your father was killed uh what happens to the family where do you end up arkansas
Guest:Yeah, we went and lived in that house we had in Arkansas and stayed there for a short time.
Guest:And my mom met some guy named Bill Stanton who was in the army and he had to move to California.
Guest:We'd get relocated.
Guest:So we moved to California and then she ditched him and she found, I had seven stepfathers.
Guest:She, I swear to God.
Guest:She never gave up.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:You're funny.
Guest:She never gave up.
Guest:There's always another one around the corner.
Guest:No, she was a trip.
Guest:My mom was a trip.
Guest:I did a little movie about her.
Guest:She passed away now.
Guest:They called her Gypsy because she was from the carnival, but she was a trip.
Guest:She's, you know, like if she needed tires, she would marry a guy that had a tire store because she didn't want to just go sleep with him.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Moral.
Marc:Moral person.
Marc:She wanted to spend at least a year or two with him.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I had, you know, a strawberry picker stepdad at one point.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He was a cool dude, Antonio De La Torre.
Guest:And we got really good strawberries at that time.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:So your mom married a guy for strawberries.
Guest:Well, I think he was actually very cute.
Marc:Cute and strawberries.
Guest:Trying to get laid on that one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Plenty of pies.
Marc:So seven, huh?
Marc:So you moved in, but you spent most of the time in California once you got here?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We just moved around.
Guest:We were Long Beach.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:When we got out here, probably nine, ten, something like that.
Marc:And then you were here, you're California girl.
Guest:Yeah, and then we would be in trailer parks down in Chula Vista and National City and Midway City.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Different trailers or did you move the... Every once in a while, we'd bump it up to like a 24-footer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And that's pretty good for six people.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Have you ever heard people having sex in a trailer?
Guest:It's just horrible.
Guest:The whole thing must move.
Guest:The whole thing moves and it's just creepy.
Marc:So you knew when it was going on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it kind of made me kind of like just not even want to be involved with sex.
Guest:I was like, you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Why do you stop shaking the damn trailer?
Guest:The house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shaking the house.
Guest:I mean, well, when we finally did get a house, I didn't hear it too bad.
Guest:But, you know.
Marc:So there were six?
Marc:How was there six?
Marc:Three, four, five?
Guest:Four kids and then a mom.
Marc:Oh, there was a fourth one.
Guest:Four children.
Guest:Yeah, two brothers and a sister and me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And was that all from your original father?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she never had other kids?
Guest:No, she goes, I'm having my tubes tied after this one because, you know, I ain't doing this again.
Guest:Then my dad got pissed at her and started going over and fucking the trapeze artist lady.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Did you have a kid with her?
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:Maybe I have a half-sister somewhere.
Marc:A trapeze artist.
Marc:Fucking the trapeze artist.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:That's carny life.
Marc:She didn't know about it?
Marc:That didn't start some shit?
Marc:Who, my mom?
Guest:Yeah, she'd go, Penelope, go over there and get your daddy.
Guest:He shouldn't be over there with that red-headed bitch.
Marc:I'm like, okay.
Marc:Exciting life.
Marc:So you grew up in all these different locations here in Southern California, and then what compels you to pursue film?
Guest:Well, I actually was in art school at the same time in Long Beach State at the same time Steven Spielberg was there.
Guest:I don't know what he was doing there because there was no film school.
Marc:Did you know him?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I wish I would have, though.
Guest:I met him later on the Little Rascals movie.
Guest:He produced that one that I directed.
Guest:But then I went from the art school.
Guest:The people in art school were a little bit posery to me.
Guest:So I kind of swung the other way.
Guest:And I went to UC Irvine and studied the sciences and ended up focusing on...
Guest:Psychobiology, of all things, which is actually the study of human behavior.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, and I really loved it.
Guest:I found a professor that was just fantastic, Dr. George Falcon, and he really guided me through, and I was just falling in love with that.
Guest:And then one day...
Guest:A guy who's a director still, Bill Norton, who was going to school there, said to me he was going to go to school at UCLA to film school.
Guest:And I'm like, what?
Guest:You mean they have a place that'll teach you how to make a movie?
Guest:He goes, yeah, UCLA, film school.
Guest:I'm down.
Guest:I'm going there.
Guest:So that's why I took off and went to UCLA.
Marc:And that was... Okay, where was it?
Marc:Where did Spielberg end up?
Marc:At USC?
Guest:Yeah, he ended up at USC.
Guest:And then the battle began between the two schools.
Guest:Just because of the two of us.
Marc:So you got out of psychobiology.
Marc:What do you think drove you to that?
Marc:To psychobiology?
Guest:I think the fact that I...
Guest:That I really just loved studying human behavior and that I was really on a constant, lifelong quest to understand my mother's erratic behavior.
Guest:And I think now, in retrospect, I look back and as brilliant and as genius as she was and as kind and loving and sweet, I think she probably was bipolar or had some other personality disorder.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Was she show symptoms of that?
Guest:Yeah, she had some badass mood swings, yeah.
Guest:Oh, really?
Yeah.
Marc:Did the mood swings coincide with the time the man spent in the family?
Guest:Could be.
Guest:Could be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As soon as she got a new boyfriend, she was fine.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:The depression ended.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I grew up.
Marc:My dad was bipolar and it's a tricky disposition.
Marc:It's a tricky disposition to be around.
Guest:But see, the thing is, a lot of it, which may account for part or all of your intelligence and brilliance, because a lot of those people who are on the edge of insanity are also extremely bright, you know?
Marc:Yeah, no, certainly as the child of one, you are certainly wired to interface with a broad spectrum of emotional and psychological frequencies, being polite.
Guest:No, no, I know, and it's good training for dealing with the world.
Marc:I guess so, but it's not great for relationships.
Marc:How'd you do?
Marc:Oh, terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I never got married.
Guest:Never?
Guest:No, I mean, I didn't see the purpose of it, you know?
Guest:Never got married and never wanted to and still don't want to.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, but you had some loves.
Guest:I had some like my stents are usually six years.
Guest:I do six years.
Marc:That's about right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't do no weekenders.
Guest:I don't do no like, you know, month long.
Guest:I do like a six year deal and it's over with.
Marc:Then it just fizzles out.
Marc:Later, dude.
Marc:Not angrily, just sort of like, I'm exhausted.
Guest:Well, I think there's only one that I totally fucking hate, but I think the rest of them I still love in a way.
Marc:What about her dad?
Guest:Oh, her dad was a sweetheart.
Guest:I met him when I was going to school at UCLA and I was putting myself through school at IHOP.
Guest:And he walked in one night, it was hippie days, you know, he's wearing a tablecloth.
Guest:And...
Guest:He had hair down here, and he was gorgeous, as you can tell by looking at Anna.
Guest:She got her looks from somewhere.
Guest:But, you know, back in the day, him and his friend Gene Krischer, good dude, but those guys, man, they did a hell of a lot of drugs.
Marc:Yeah, what kind?
Guest:Oh, true.
Marc:Acid.
Guest:Oh, yeah, of course.
Guest:And I did, too.
Guest:You know, and then and I mean, you know, he was in, you know, I was like, what's that stuff?
Guest:DMT.
Guest:I mean, he got serious with stuff.
Guest:But he really, really loved the Downers.
Guest:And unfortunately, he passed away in 1974 from a heroin overdose.
Guest:And I was four years old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was I was.
Marc:it was terrible you know to have to go through that um but i was there you know to take care of my daughter for as a single mom see this is what like early 70s 74. so 74 you're in film school you're working at ihop you got a man you got a baby your man dies of dope right which wasn't unusual at that time that's right uh and and you're still studying film and you finish film school
Guest:I finished film school and I started a company called Rock and Reel, which I believe is, and I'm waiting for someone to dispute this, but I might be right.
Guest:It was the first music video company here in Los Angeles.
Guest:And I made, yeah, music videos for the record companies, mostly CBS.
Marc:On film?
Guest:Yeah, we shot film, 16 millimeter film.
Marc:So they weren't quite music videos.
Marc:They were promotional pieces to be played where?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, what happened was a friend of mine named Peter Philbin, who is still an awesome dude, used to work at CBS Records, and he says to me, called me up one day, he goes, Penelope, let's do a music video.
Guest:I said, what is that?
Guest:And he goes, well, we just figured out we don't have to send the whole band around the world and have them destroy hotels and everything, and we could just send a piece of film.
Guest:So you shoot the film, we make a bunch of copies, and we send it around.
Guest:So that was like 1973 that they figured that out.
Marc:So you opened the company when you graduated in 74, 75?
Guest:Yeah, I don't remember when I graduated.
Guest:They kicked me out, actually.
Guest:I graduated, but I just stayed there way, way, way too long.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Way too long.
Marc:Were there other people in your program that you still are friends with or became people that we would know?
Guest:Yeah, Paul Schrader was there.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Uh-huh, Schrader and me.
Guest:No, I think that was it.
Marc:Were you friends with him?
Guest:With Schrader?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Actually, I think he kind of liked me.
Marc:That would have been exciting.
Guest:Yeah, because he introduced me to Bobby De Niro, and Bobby came over to my house a few times, and I thought, hmm, this guy's cute, man.
Guest:I got something going on here.
Marc:So did you get together with De Niro?
Guest:Well, like I said, he visited a few times and he comes over one day and he goes, you know, I don't think I better come over and see you anymore because Paul likes you and I'm like, and he goes, I'm doing this movie Taxi Driver with him so I don't think I better step on his toes.
Marc:Oh, no problem.
Marc:So were you dating Schrader?
Guest:No, I wasn't.
Guest:I'm like, Bobby, this is a ridiculous excuse.
Guest:But later we were to find out that I was actually the wrong color for Bobby.
Marc:For De Niro.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what about Schrader?
Guest:No, I was the right color for him, but I don't... He didn't... God bless him, but he wasn't my type.
Guest:He's a dark dude.
Guest:Well, so am I, but at least I come out of the hole sometimes, you know?
LAUGHTER
Marc:Just to see how light it is, maybe get a little color, go back in.
Marc:Get a little comedy going here, yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:All right, so it seems like you were part of that crew or on the periphery of that crew that was there when the entire industry was changing.
Marc:Yeah, and you probably felt that I imagine I mean because the 70s outside of culturally everything that's going on music wise and drug wise and everything else You know the Hollywood system is shifting right right and you knew some of those guys it seems yeah I mean I was kind of slipping into some parties and stuff like that I didn't really understand Hollywood and I didn't get to know it until I
Guest:I met Lorne Michaels in around 1974, 3, whatever, right before Saturday Night Live.
Guest:He was sitting in my living room one day and he goes, I got an idea for a TV show, maybe something live from New York.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Swear to God.
Guest:What was he doing in LA?
Guest:He had a friend here named John Head.
Guest:John lived in LA.
Guest:He had come from Toronto.
Guest:He was just visiting.
Marc:He's a friend of yours?
Marc:John was a friend of mine and that's why I knew Lauren.
Marc:It seems like people hung out more then.
Marc:Like there was always people at people's houses.
Guest:Well, that's because there was no social media.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's no social media.
Marc:Can't text.
Guest:No cell phones.
Guest:No cell phones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You had to actually look at each other and talk.
Marc:You had to make one call and go, I'm going to come by.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or else you just go there.
Marc:And then there were parties and people hung out.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Smoked some weed.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Talked all night.
Marc:That stuff.
Guest:The old fashioned one.
Marc:So Lauren Michaels is at your house and it hits him that he's going to do a variety show.
Guest:Well, he might have had the idea before he was at my house, but that's where he told me about it.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And yeah, so he... And he was just a guy from Canada, right?
Guest:Well, he had a show up in Canada.
Marc:Right, the Lauren and the comedy team.
Guest:Yeah, and he goes, I don't know what's going to happen to my show when I leave.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anyway, so what he did was he asked me if I wanted to go to New York.
Guest:And I had my little daughter, Anna, and I said, no, I'm going to stay here.
Guest:I didn't know it was going to turn into Saturday Night Live.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I said, but if you need anything, I'm here.
Guest:So he calls me up one day and he goes, I found this really funny guy, Albert Brooks.
Guest:And I really would love it if you could teach Albert how to make movies because you know how and Albert doesn't.
Guest:And so...
Guest:He can make really good movies on the show.
Guest:So I produced six movies or whatever number it was for Saturday Night Live that Albert directed.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:Those are great.
Marc:The shorts.
Guest:Yeah, I never was able.
Guest:Yeah, I wanted to direct.
Guest:And Lauren kept saying, if you write something that's good enough, you can direct for the show.
Guest:And I'm like, well, that never happened.
Guest:but did you show albert how to make movies hell yes i did from beginning to end you sat down with albert bro yes i said you put the camera right here albert and the lens goes that way and if you got a long lens you can do this and you can i taught albert how to make movies i will say that publicly and he he would i'm sure agree yeah but the trade-off mark was great because i knew nothing of hollywood right and albert was born here and raised here
Guest:Wherever we are.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But anyway, he knew it inside and out.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:He grew up in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys became friends as well?
Guest:Albert and I were friends.
Guest:I was working with him for four years.
Guest:And I had just left a stint with Richard Pryor, if you can believe that.
Marc:What'd you do with Pryor?
Marc:Oh, wait a minute.
Marc:Were you working on that fucking movie?
Guest:Uncle Tom's Fairy Tales.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I was working on.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So you...
Marc:And that thing never came together.
Marc:Were you the one he hired to sit in his house and do the editing?
Marc:Yes, that's me.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I spent two years in the same room with Richard Pryor and four years in the same room with Albert Brooks.
Guest:You want to know why I'm nuts?
Marc:But wait, that period in Pryor's life, I mean, that was when he was pretty huge as a comic.
Marc:He was just on the edge.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Really.
Guest:He was just on the edge.
Guest:He was just starting to make some money.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And where did he find you?
Marc:He just found you at school?
Guest:I was walking with Bobby and his dad across the UCLA campus and Bobby said, oh my God, look at that guy.
Guest:It's Richard Pryor.
Guest:And he was wearing like a long pimp coat, you know, and a hat and a leather thing.
Guest:And I said, who's Richard Pryor?
Guest:And he goes, the funniest man on the face of the earth.
Marc:Who said that?
Guest:bobby bobby her dad oh okay yeah so i i went bobby went up and said hey man you're really cool what are you doing here i'm looking for some film students to help me make a movie and i'm like you found them so yeah we worked with you and bobby did yeah bobby shot the camera and uh i produced the movie oh my god what was that fucking like unreal holy shit because he's all jacked up and yeah
Guest:He used to walk, Mark, he used to walk around in a samurai kind of coat thingy.
Marc:At his mansion?
Guest:Well, it was over on Hancock Park on Plymouth.
Guest:And he had just married Shelley Bonas.
Guest:And...
Guest:you know paul mooney was around yeah all those people and richard would walk around with a plate of coke in one hand and a bottle of courvoisier in the other uh-huh and we he would tell me how he wanted a movie cut and i was so it's changing every second oh yeah yeah big time totally and and so i had to like do whatever he needed and i did and and what was the movie about and
Guest:It kept changing every day.
Marc:But what was the basic pitch at the beginning?
Guest:The premise of it was there was this white guy that had raped a black woman and that he was on trial for doing so with an all-black judge and jury.
Guest:And so...
Marc:you know i it was a comedy how well it was a dark comedy sort of like was he basing it like around like putney swope or something like that yeah it was a little more um i don't know radical yeah and then putney swope because he was still you know just out of like uh oakland and stuff and he was still sort of trying to like he he was still politically minded in in in a kind of radical right
Guest:Oh, Richard was, definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Oh, yeah, he was after the man.
Guest:It was funny, though, because one day there was a knock on the door, and he said, you go answer it.
Guest:I'm like, okay.
Guest:And I go to the door, and I go, Richard, it's somebody from the IRS.
Guest:And he goes, tell him I'm not here.
Guest:I said, okay.
Guest:So I go back, and I let him, I'm sorry, sir, Mr. Pryor's not here right now.
Guest:And Richard comes up behind him with a pair of...
Guest:garden shears garden shears and he's like snapping at the bushes cutting leaves off and he's going i'm just a gardener and i don't know where mr prior is either and i'm like oh my god richard but they didn't know what he looked like back then you know what i mean he hadn't gone that public at that point yeah so that's what 73 or 74
Guest:And well, actually, Richard told me I was pregnant and we were shooting and I fainted.
Guest:And when I woke up, he's got his white pimp coat on at that point.
Guest:And he points down and he goes, that bitch is pregnant.
Guest:And I said, what?
Guest:No way.
Guest:And I picked myself up.
Guest:But he was right.
Guest:And so I had Anna.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So how long did you spend with him?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:All of 69, the year 1969.
Marc:No, it was that early.
Guest:Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Guest:We were still in film school, right?
Guest:Yeah, I was in film school.
Marc:So he'd just gotten here probably, give or take a bit.
Guest:Yeah, but he was doing...
Marc:he still had that feel of he was a big somebody you know right to all of us you know so you and mooney and bobby and you're sitting around and he's you're all doing blow and he's trying to figure out what the movie is and everything's changing how much footage did you actually shoot of that
Guest:Well, quite a bit, actually, and we cut it together, and I spent a long time, because Anna was born in 69, December, and then Rain, his daughter, was born in July, so it was like...
Guest:six eight months after that because i remember anna being in the little cradle with rain next to next to the uh movieola that i was working on and rain was in the rain was around yeah yeah so that's cute little babies little babies while you're everyone sweating doing blow and cutting movies uh yeah hey you know what we survived no no i yeah look i'm not judging it sounds pretty exciting yeah i'm pretty crazy i'm kind of yeah on the job training
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But what happened to the footage?
Guest:Well, one day Shelly got mad and said, she came down and she said, you're spending so much time on this movie, you don't care about me.
Guest:And he had just bought her this really beautiful, well, although the animal lovers wouldn't like it, but it was all the way down to the floor, a red fox coat, and he had given it to her, and it was sitting right over there.
Guest:And she was griping that he wasn't giving her enough attention, so...
Guest:He got up and I had just shown him the whole cut of the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Feature.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it was about an hour, a little over an hour.
Guest:And he reached into the bin of the movie, Mark, and he tore the film into pieces about five inches long.
Guest:And I was just horrified because I had just caught it.
Guest:And you can't digitally put it back together back in those days.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And so I'm just like horrified.
Guest:Shelly got me.
Guest:I ran upstairs.
Guest:And then Richard gets out and gets in his car.
Guest:And she hears the car fire up.
Guest:So she runs down.
Guest:And I guess she was naked at that point.
Guest:And she jumped on the hood of the car.
Guest:And he took off with Shelly naked on the hood of the car.
Guest:And I picked up the fox coat and got in my car and chased after him because I thought, well, if I get to her, I can give her the coat to put on.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Which I did.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So they had some fight and he said, fuck this, took off.
Marc:She jumped on the car naked.
Marc:You followed them with the coat and gave it to her and she wasn't hurt.
Marc:No, she wasn't hurt.
Marc:And was that the end of the movie?
Guest:No, I pasted it back.
Guest:No, you're talking about your prior here.
Guest:No, I pasted it back together and it was funky.
Guest:And then at one point he says to me, Penelope, we need to show this film to Bill Cosby.
Guest:And I said, OK, I know the story gets thicker, doesn't it?
Guest:I said, OK.
Guest:And so he goes, can you get one of those rooms there at UCLA?
Guest:And I did.
Guest:I got a room, a projection room, and Bill came in and we showed him the movie.
Guest:And Richard said that he needed some money and he was going to sell the movie to Bill Cosby.
Marc:Oh, that was his plan.
Marc:He's going to sell the movie for Bill Cosby to produce it or to finish it, to get it distributed.
Marc:That was his coked up plan is to get Mr. Clean, Bill Cosby.
Marc:Well, what we know now makes it different.
Marc:But at that time, the biggest black comedian in the country.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And a clean act, not a revolutionary.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Richard Pryor's like, we got this movie and Cosby's going to buy it.
Guest:Well, the logic, I think, from the other side of the fence is that Cosby went, this guy could be really bad competition for me.
Guest:I think I'll just take this thing and put it away somewhere.
Guest:And what happened?
Guest:He did.
Guest:He bought it?
Guest:I think so, because none of us ever heard of it ever again.
Marc:So Cosby gave him money, took the print, and that was it.
Marc:That's my best guess.
Marc:But the deal was made, though.
Guest:I didn't see that happen.
Guest:I know that was Richard's intention.
Marc:And was that your only experience with Cosby?
Marc:Well, there was... No, I'm just kidding.
Guest:You know where that was going.
Guest:Yes, that was the only experience.
Marc:And then did you keep in touch with Richard after that?
Guest:I remember he owed me a bunch of money and I went over to get it from him and he was sitting at his big old table there with his...
Guest:you know yeah and i said you know i've been working for like six eight weeks here you think i could probably just get paid a little bit of something and he goes we're not working on this movie anymore bye that was it and that was the end of it yeah so okay so you had that amazing experience with richard then you showed uh the the young albert brooks the the young sweet non-coked up albert brooks oh excuse me back up on that one
Guest:Hello.
Marc:Hollywood.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:No, but I mean, it must have been a different experience.
Guest:I should let Albert tell you about that.
Marc:I'd love to.
Marc:I was on Twitter with him for an hour the other night.
Guest:Oh, you were?
Marc:I can't get him to come over here.
Guest:Oh, he's a recluse.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:He said I could interview him on Twitter, so I did for a little while.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Marc:It was funny.
Marc:But okay, but you do walk through the paces of filmmaking with Albert and get him on his feet.
Marc:And what was your credit on those films?
Yeah.
Guest:On the Saturday Night Live films?
Guest:I don't know, probably producer.
Guest:But then I also produced a feature with Albert.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:Real Life.
Guest:You produced that?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:Holy shit, that's a great movie.
Guest:I asked him about that the other night.
Guest:And that's when I decided I didn't want to produce anymore.
Marc:That was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Well, because he...
Guest:he has a history you know god bless him if you can do it go ahead but of kind of having a girlfriend that's the lead in the movie or other way around and so the francis lee mccain he was kind of going out with and and he had given her a couple points in the movie and then they kind of broke up during the middle of the movie and he's and he said to me you know penelpie i need you to go get the points back
Guest:and i'm like um albert i don't think that's quite fair i mean she is doing the movie and she's going to complete he goes get the points back so i go into her dressing room and i'm like do you think um maybe it would be okay if we kind of took those points back she started throwing shoes at me you know so yeah at that point i decided well why don't i try the directing thing instead of the producing thing and what did you do after that what was your first film
Guest:The Decline of Western Civilization.
Marc:That was the first feature.
Guest:The documentary.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just watched it again.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, because I got this box.
Guest:They gave it to you?
Marc:Yeah, I got it twice.
Marc:I got it before it was packaged, and then I got the packaged version.
Marc:They like you, Mark.
Marc:Oh, no, I loved it.
Marc:I mean, I hadn't watched it in years, and I just had John Doe in here about a month ago.
Guest:I heard it.
Marc:And it was great, right?
Marc:Yeah, he's pretty cool.
Marc:But like seeing him as a kid and seeing them all loopy and see like the amount of time, like how raw it was and how much time you gave everybody on camera and all the sort of the non-talking moments where they're just sweating and nodding and Darby crash and all that stuff.
Marc:I mean, it was really raw, man.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, it was raw partially because we didn't have a lot of money to shoot.
Guest:And also because, you know, I just kind of like things that way.
Marc:But who were your inspirations, really, when you were coming up as a filmmaker?
Marc:What movies did you like?
Marc:Who were your guys?
Guest:I was a big fan of Cassavetes.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know, and for documentarians, I have to say that my biggest hero is Frederick Weissman.
Marc:I don't know his work.
Marc:Can you hit me with a couple titles?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Boot Camp.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:His most amazing work to me is he shot inside a mental hospital, and it's called Titicut Follies.
Guest:And I just love his work because he puts the camera there, turns it on, lets it happen, and lets the viewer decide if they like it or not.
Guest:He doesn't try to impose an opinion, you know?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So you studied that stuff.
Guest:Oh, big time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:UCLA.
Marc:And when when it came time to do like, what was your involvement?
Marc:What inspired the movie where you you saw punk happening?
Marc:You're coming out of the 60s and 70s.
Marc:This is what?
Marc:79.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So so you you felt something happening in L.A.
Marc:?
Guest:Yeah, you know, Mark, it was a time when you just didn't want to listen to the radio.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's just way too much Bee Gees and Abba going on.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Sure, I remember that.
Marc:I was in high school.
Marc:It was horrible.
Marc:Were you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I bet you were so cute.
Marc:Just waiting for something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A little round, chubby Jewish face.
Guest:You're not chubby?
Marc:You're not chubby.
Marc:Back then, I was a little chubby in my mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:It was a bad time for music.
Guest:And then once I heard the Sex Pistols and started going to the punk clubs around town here in Los Angeles, I realized that I needed to shoot the scene because there was like a big shift in music at that point.
Guest:Punk rock just...
Marc:tried to tear down tradition in every way possible and i like that and i like the chaos i like the confusion i like the aggression i like the mess you know yeah yeah yeah and and and they sort of welcomed you in they were you part of it in a way i mean i mean before the movie yeah i mean everybody i shot i knew already right right right and like uh so you knew you were hanging out with john and exine
Marc:You're hanging out with Darby.
Marc:You're hanging out with, what's his name, Claude?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what's the fear guy?
Marc:Leaving.
Marc:Leaving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I talked to him yesterday.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a really wonderful person, and we're still in touch with quite a few people from the movie.
Guest:Eugene.
Guest:Circle Jerks.
Guest:Yes, we love... Keith and I are friends and Anna.
Guest:Anna actually is more in touch and since we put the DVD box set together, she's been in touch with them and was able to kind of reach out to them and pull it all together.
Marc:But like when you were in it...
Marc:Like, I guess it was just because like watching the movie and the choices you made in editing and stuff, it really, you know, the feeling of it was raw and it just matched the music perfectly.
Marc:But the way you held on, you know, sometimes with no dialogue and not necessarily music and you were just sort of moving around and showing these kids.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:That you really felt the time, you know.
Guest:Well, that's my Frederick Weissman, you know, effect.
Guest:Because that's what he did.
Guest:That was his style.
Guest:And that's why he was brilliant, you know.
Guest:And I really recommend his film to any documentarians that want to, you know, do it.
Guest:All the young people that do want to do that stuff, go watch Fred Weissman films.
Marc:So, was that what your plan was to be a documentarian?
No.
Guest:My plan was to pay the rent and to feed my daughter.
Guest:And everybody goes, why did you do all these different kind of movies, Penelope?
Guest:Well, I did them because I needed a job.
Guest:Well, how were you going to sell that movie?
Guest:Who was giving you money for that?
Guest:Oh, this wonderful man named Jeff Prettyman.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And he was a businessman from the valley.
Guest:He was actually like my age, although back then, since he was so much more adult, because he had a job, he felt older, but we're kind of the same age.
Guest:But my friend Ron Hugo said, you know, my friend Jeff wants to make a porno movie.
Guest:So he wanted to know if you would help him.
Guest:And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do no porno movie.
Guest:You know, my mom was like so, so straight and narrow.
Marc:You didn't do any porn?
Guest:No.
Guest:I didn't do no porno movies.
Marc:Didn't shoot no porno movies.
Guest:No.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah, I could have done it good, but I didn't do it.
Guest:Oh, that's creepy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But anyway, so Jeff gave me the money to do the first decline.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I told him in the beginning, I said, all I need, because I was going to shoot it on Super 8, Mark.
Guest:And I said, all I need, Jeff, is like 12 grand, and I can put this whole thing together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then it took him down to a germ show, and he goes, this is more important than we think.
Guest:We better keep going here.
Guest:Really?
Guest:yeah he was cool you know it's like so we're gonna bump it up bump it up bump it up so it ended up costing like 10 times as much as it was supposed to but he's never bitched about it and the cool thing is years later I was able to put him in some of my movies you know like when I got actual real studio jobs oh yeah yeah I put in some of my movies he still got SAG insurance so he's real happy
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:But you went from Decline 1, which did all right.
Marc:It did all right.
Marc:Did it make money?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It didn't make any money.
Guest:Poor Jeff.
Guest:But it didn't make any money, and I never made any money on it.
Guest:But it was the most written about movie of 1980.
Guest:So that's kind of cool.
Guest:Put me on the map as a director.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I did Decline 2, I guess, was 1987.
Marc:What'd you do between 80 and 87?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I did a movie called Suburbia Next.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I did Suburbia.
Marc:That was sort of like, it was kind of almost inspired by Decline in a way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you built out fictional characters.
Marc:Who wrote that?
Marc:Did you write it?
Marc:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I remember seeing that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of people say Suburbia and Decline 1 changed their lives, which is really gratifying for me.
Guest:And then after that, I did a movie called Dudes that had John Cryer in it.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:It was kind of a punk rock Western.
Marc:And people were financing these movies.
Marc:You got enough of a rap to wear.
Guest:That was Herb Jaffe that financed Dudes.
Guest:And Roger Corman financed Suburbia.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Along with a lovely man named Bert Dragon, who was a furniture magnate in Cleveland, Ohio, that came out here and wanted to make movies.
Guest:So I put Bert and Roger together, and they financed it.
Marc:Did you spend a lot of time with Corman?
Guest:i spent a decent amount you know roger was cool he was he gave me a list like of things to do like as a director i still got that list it was it's a trip um and and you know the first thing on the list is sit down in the director's chair as much as possible and i'm like what the hell i gotta sit down for i learned you gotta sit down you know but roger was cool yeah god bless him is he still around roger's still with us oh that's sweet yeah you talk to him
Guest:Occasionally at the Director's Guild.
Guest:I see them.
Marc:Okay, so then you do those two movies, then you do Decline 2, which I saw, and it was like, holy fuck.
Marc:That movie, that made some money, right?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, that was amazing.
Marc:How's it going to make money?
Marc:I don't know, but it was an amazing movie.
Marc:I knew guys in that.
Marc:Did you really?
Marc:Yeah, it was almost like you captured the essence of punk and the essence of what killed it.
Marc:That movie had a profound impact on me.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, good.
Guest:I mean, I think a lot of people, but, you know, somebody said the other day that, you know, you get credited with the birth of Grunge because you did that movie.
Guest:So as a reaction to that movie, Grunge happened.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:So people were like, fuck this.
Guest:Well, yeah, I guess, but I don't know.
Guest:I don't necessarily, you know, take that.
Marc:When did you make the third one?
Guest:Ninety-seven.
Guest:And what did that capture?
Guest:It's more of, it's more really about homeless punks, gutter punks, you know, the crusty kids.
Marc:Sure, covered with the green goo.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With the green.
Marc:I always notice that their clothes have sort of a patina of grime, greenish grime.
Guest:Yeah, and we don't know if it's mold or the squatter grime.
Guest:I love them, though.
Guest:Those are my family.
Guest:Those guys in Decline 3, I love those guys.
Marc:But after Decline 2, is that where you and Lauren regroup?
Guest:Yeah, because there wasn't anybody else in Hollywood, really, that knew much about headbangers.
Guest:And Wayne and Garth thought they were headbangers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, yeah, I think part of the reason I got that gig was because Lorne felt bad that he never let me do pieces on Saturday Night Live.
Marc:Have you been in touch with him during that time?
Guest:Not really, but we were close enough, I think, over the years.
Guest:From back in the day?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he just calls and goes, yeah, Penelope.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Penelope, you know, this doesn't really matter, but we're doing a movie.
Guest:And if you don't mind, we can just go out to Mr. Child's after, but we talk about it.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:This isn't Lorne.
Guest:Lorne is like, he only cares about where you're going to eat.
Guest:Nothing else matters.
Yeah.
Guest:well you know we can go to spago if you want but forget the movies let's go and eat so you go to mr chow's to talk about wayne's world something like that was he so he was here he came out and to meet with you oh yeah he had that company broadway video yeah you know was uh at paramount and in new york and so um yeah do you like him do i like lauren yeah i i have a lot you know everybody love hates lauren you know no one admits to hating lauren not on my show
Guest:Well, what do I have to lose at this point?
Guest:He got pissed at me because I wouldn't do Ladies Man.
Guest:So I didn't do that movie and he kind of got pissed because he called me like four times and they never called me after that.
Guest:You know, I probably should have done it.
Marc:But that was after Wayne's World.
Guest:You know, Lauren...
Guest:I think Lauren is one of those genius, crazy people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And those are the people in my mind that changed the world.
Guest:And I have a huge respect for him, just as I do for Mike Myers and all the other brilliant comedians I've worked with.
Guest:He's a freaky dude.
Guest:Lauren is a freaky dude.
Guest:I mean, he laughs at the weirdest stuff.
Guest:I mean, come on.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:You know, the bees and the gigantic, you know, corn guys with those green giant guys.
Guest:I mean, where the hell does that come from?
Guest:You know, it's like, whoa.
Marc:But were you there for the first season taping?
Marc:Were there like the premiere taping?
Marc:Did you go to New York for that?
Guest:No, I wasn't there for that.
Marc:For any of that, huh?
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So he takes you to Mr. Chow's and he says you want to direct Wayne's World.
Marc:Is that what you're telling me?
Guest:Well, mostly the meetings were at Paramount, you know, and I was actually on, I could either get one of two jobs.
Guest:I could either do a documentary about Patton State Hospital for the Criminally Insane.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Or get the gig to do my first studio movie, and it was my seventh movie, mind you, at Paramount Pictures.
Guest:I was not in the director's guild or anything.
Guest:And I remember they had wall phones at that point.
Guest:And I remember being in the mental hospital over there, and I thought, excuse me, guys, I think I'm going to go make a call.
Guest:So I go and I use the wall phone and I call up my agent.
Guest:While you're shooting the mental patient?
Guest:No, I didn't shoot.
Guest:We were talking about doing the movie.
Guest:Like I said, I was going to do either one or the other.
Guest:And I call up my agent and I'm like, did I get the gig?
Guest:And he goes, you got the gig.
Guest:So I'm in this mental hospital.
Guest:And the lady over there had just shown me around.
Guest:It's like, well, there's shit on the wall everywhere because when they go really nuts, they just smear shit everywhere.
Guest:So I either got...
Guest:I either got to do the Crazy Hospital movie or Wayne's World, and I'm not sure which one I did.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Boom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It must have been an amazing experience to be given some money, big money to make a big movie.
Guest:When they drove me, they took me to the set.
Guest:They picked me up at my home.
Guest:They had a Teamster guy right there driving in a limo, and they drove me to the set, and there was all these trucks, and I looked at it, and I went...
Marc:i think we must be at the wrong place we don't need that many trucks right you know because i never welcome to to a union shoot exactly yeah yeah welcome to it to money and power yeah so all right so you did you have to meet with mike oh yeah that was all part of the process mike had to give me his blessing and that's the way lauren does things but with mike i mean i i know that i've read that you you had some issues with him initially i interviewed him oh yeah
Marc:Yeah, I spent an hour with him at his place, and he was relatively candid and obviously a brilliant guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I can imagine he was difficult.
Guest:You know, it was very early.
Marc:He's a control guy.
Guest:He is, but here's the thing.
Guest:It was early in his career.
Guest:First movie.
Guest:First movie.
Guest:He didn't really understand the process, and he was a little insecure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All of the geniuses are extremely insecure.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And a lot of them covered up with drugs and everything.
Guest:Mike did not.
Guest:Mike's a clean machine.
Guest:But he was okay.
Guest:Dana is a pleasure to work with.
Guest:It really did.
Guest:The shit didn't hit the fan until we were done with the movie.
Guest:And unfortunately, Mike's dad had passed away, so he wasn't around for the test screening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and it went really really well and so when he got back he wanted to make some changes and i you know this is a terrible i don't want to do the story again because i i like mike last time i saw mike the first thing he did was pull out his cell phone and give me big hug and show me the picture of his new baby you know what i mean so that's heartwarming yeah and me and mike are all good and there was a time when
Guest:It wasn't that way, but I'm good with it now because that's what life's all about is getting through those things, you know, learning those lessons and thanking the people that put you through hell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that's the way I feel about it.
Guest:And I love I love Lauren.
Guest:I love I love Mike.
Guest:And I actually kind of love you, Mark.
Marc:No, I'm just kidding.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:it happened so quickly i know so quickly so you did now you wrote television as well yeah i did a little bit i did some tv work with jennifer aniston yeah the thing called five and they did this huge ad campaign for it was on lifetime and i remember being in a cab in new york and and i was getting in the cab and i'm like jesus christ my picture's on top of the cab
Guest:And I get in and I tell the cab driver, hey, my picture's on top of the cab.
Guest:He goes, yeah, sure, lady.
Guest:And then I did Roseanne.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was on Roseanne for a season and that was, see, that's another comedian which, you know, God threw in my path.
Guest:How'd that happen?
Guest:you were writing well this wonderful this one story editor this wonderful woman named arlene rothberg who i don't even remember how i met she was a manager for carly simon that's what it was i was doing music videos and i knew arlene through that and arlene said you know penelope you're just you really need to get into something here she says you're talented and you need to push yourself i'm so bad at promoting myself yeah so she got me a gig over at um
Guest:you know with rosanne a story editor and the first day on the job um i was being led down the hall by the producer and and all this broken furniture and a broken computer was in the hallway and i'm like oh my goodness what happened here and and the guy goes he goes oh well one of the writers don't want doesn't want you here and he's pretty mad about it so he just tore up his room and i'm like geez this is gonna be fun why the fuck wouldn't he want you there
Guest:It was crazy there.
Guest:That whole, it was just insane.
Marc:How long has it been going?
Marc:Was this later in the run?
Guest:It was about halfway through, I think.
Guest:It was 1990.
Marc:So it was a huge hit.
Marc:Huge hit, yeah.
Marc:Just making money.
Guest:Yeah, and I remember being in Roseanne's dressing room one day, and there were these voodoo dolls on the dresser.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, these are so cute.
Guest:And I started to touch them.
Guest:She goes, don't touch them.
Guest:Don't touch them.
Guest:We got them set up to kill somebody.
Guest:It's like, whoa, crazy stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it was not a great environment to work in.
Guest:no i mean again i don't want to complain i could have been back at ihop you know what i mean sure so it was interesting i look at it all like it was lessons in my life you know when one day uh we had gone to lunch and i was in the back seat and got out of the car and as i passed the window roseanne was driving i noticed she had left her wallet in the seat of the car yeah and i said um
Guest:Oh, Roseanne, you left your wallet.
Guest:And she turned around, she looked at the wallet, and she looked at me, and it was just like, wham, she hated me.
Marc:Really?
Guest:And I'm like, geez, all I did was tell you, you left your wallet.
Guest:And after that, it wasn't happening anymore.
Guest:I think she was having a bad day.
Marc:Yeah, and that was it.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, we're friends now.
Guest:We see each other out, and it's like all good, all good.
Guest:You know, she got skinny and everything.
Marc:Why didn't you direct Wayne's World 2?
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, because I wouldn't make the changes Mike wanted to do.
Marc:And so... Were you hired on to do it?
Guest:No.
Guest:It never happened.
Guest:Lauren said, if you don't make the changes... Mike's going to kill me for even telling this story again.
Guest:I don't even want to.
Guest:But Mike said it... Lauren said, if you don't make the changes, you're not going to be able to direct Wayne's World 2.
Guest:And then the studio said... I said, well, why don't you guys tell him we don't want to make the changes?
Guest:The studio goes...
Guest:No.
Guest:We want Mike to do Wayne's World 2, and Lorne wants him to go back to the show, so you have to tell him.
Guest:So I took the hit.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:You're the fall guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'm excited.
Guest:I was okay.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It bombed, so...
Marc:Well, at least you didn't have to, you know, bury somebody.
Guest:Yeah, it was fine.
Marc:And you did a few movies.
Marc:You know, some of them did better than others, right?
Guest:Yeah, I've had my mega hits and my mega bombs.
Marc:And outside of, you know, we're going to talk to Anna now, your daughter, about how the box set came together and your relationship.
Marc:But what would you like to be working on now?
Marc:What are you working on now?
Guest:well we are um you know she's gonna finish that movie on the carnival the doc on your on your mom yeah you yeah we have we have uh elements of the decline for already filmed what's that about oh i can't tell you mark i really like you i don't know if i can touch this yeah you can touch can i pick it back up okay that was you really like me what is it a music thing again
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:And the reason is because if I tell you and it's public, then anybody can go and do it.
Guest:So that's why I'm trying to keep it a little bit on the down low.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Marc:What part of Los Angeles do you live in?
Guest:Oh, I live in Laurel Canyon.
Guest:When I started doing the movies, I started buying a bunch of houses.
Guest:And that's why four years ago when I asked Anna to come to work with me, I needed her to help me with the houses and with various other scripts and whatever I'm doing.
Guest:And she goes, Mom, I'm not going to do it unless the first thing we do are the declined DVDs.
Guest:And so that's why it happened, because people have been wanting it forever.
Marc:So you got a bunch of houses up in Laurel Canyon?
Marc:Yes, I do.
Marc:About like Woodrow Wilson?
Guest:Well, we've got two, one up by Mulholland, one by Mount Olympus, and two in... What, do you rent them?
Guest:Yes, I do.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Well, that's nice.
Marc:So you're smart.
Guest:And I got a place in Santa Monica, yeah.
Guest:That you live in?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:That you buy?
Guest:That I rent.
Guest:So you did the smart thing.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I accidentally dumbed out.
Guest:You know, I have this boyfriend.
Guest:He used to call me the waitress that got lucky.
Guest:And...
Guest:And he's not my boyfriend anymore, by the way.
Guest:But anyway, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about this or not.
Guest:What?
Guest:I want to say, and I cleared it with her before I came in with Anna.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:About five years ago, Anna had an issue because I don't know if you know this or not, but...
Guest:You know, drug addiction is pretty much genetic, oftentimes genetic.
Guest:And her father had a really, really bad problem.
Guest:And five years ago, she had a bad problem.
Guest:And the reason I asked her to come to work for me is because I wanted to be with her every day and I wanted to watch her.
Guest:She crashed a car with a kid in it.
Guest:And both of them were fine, but I made her start working for me.
Guest:And that's how the declines came about.
Guest:The box set came about is because, you know.
Marc:Get her back on the right path.
Guest:Get her back on the right path.
Guest:And she kicked ass when she did it, too.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Let's get her on the mic.
Marc:Anna Fox, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Pull it to your face.
Guest:Closer to my face.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Kind of like this.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Marc:Yeah, look at that.
Guest:Look at that.
Guest:How'd I do?
Marc:It's good.
Marc:So, Anna.
Guest:Yes, sir.
Marc:You got all fucked up on drugs.
Guest:I did.
Marc:I've been there.
Guest:Yeah, it's not fun.
Marc:And you have a kid as well.
Guest:I have three.
Marc:You have three kids.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:One of my kids is actually an adult now, which is weird.
Marc:Grandma.
Pfft.
Marc:so uh it would now you've been clean for a little while coming up on five way pretty good that's great yeah well that's a sort of touching story so were you guys close before uh the this this new relationship came or was it strained
Guest:We were close in a more codependent way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In a more angry way from my side.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:So you were fighting her.
Marc:You were fighting her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:uh making a lot of shit up in my own head sure about her and then how you got fucked somehow yeah right yeah yeah no absolutely yeah absolutely how do you guys know all these things hey yeah you got the short end of the stick with mom yeah yeah and so i was able to work through a lot of that stuff was she the only one there when you hit the when when when the chips were down though ultimately
Guest:No, no, my husband was there.
Guest:I had a lot of support.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah, I was lucky.
Marc:You're still together with him?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:We've been together 21 years.
Guest:And he just got into the cult.
Guest:Yeah, he's playing with the cult now.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What's he play?
Guest:He plays synthesizers, keyboard, guitar.
Marc:So you're a rock and roll girl.
Guest:I am.
Guest:Where did that come from, Mark?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Showing those movies, dragging her to punk clubs.
Marc:That's what it was.
Marc:Did you go?
Marc:How old were you in 79?
Marc:Nine.
Marc:Nine.
Marc:You didn't take her to the clubs, did you?
Guest:She did.
Guest:She took me to a fear show one time.
Guest:When you were nine?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She set me up on the stage thinking that would be a safer place to keep me.
Guest:So I don't know if we were in the frying pan or fire or what.
Marc:Do you have recollection?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Yeah, I went to X shows.
Guest:I remember falling asleep in the back of the Roxy in a booth.
Guest:No, in the whiskey.
Guest:In a booth during an X show because it was just getting too late for my little brain.
Guest:So I would just crash out in the booth.
Marc:How great was X in that movie?
Guest:They are awesome.
Marc:It was just like, it's so magic, man.
Guest:They're still one of my favorite bands.
Guest:I go to all their shows.
Marc:How's she doing?
Marc:Eggzine, good?
Guest:She's good, yeah.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And now, was this your idea to release this box set?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was?
Guest:Well, we both knew it needed to be done.
Marc:Really?
Marc:How'd you know that?
Marc:What was happening?
Guest:Because it was eating away at her.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because the social media, too.
Guest:And I'm not really, you know, out there cyber surfing as much as she is.
Guest:And she came to me one day and she goes, Mom, you have no idea how much people want to see these movies.
Guest:And you have no idea who you are.
Guest:And I'm like, what does that mean?
Guest:And she went, people have a lot of respect for you for doing these movies.
Guest:And it is my life's work.
Guest:That's the way I look at it.
Guest:And not Wayne's World, not Black Sheep, not any of that.
Guest:But the decline is my life's work.
Marc:Oh my God, you did Black Sheep too?
Guest:Yeah, and the little rascals and stuff like that.
Guest:You're sweet.
Marc:You've worked with a lot of geniuses.
Guest:Yeah, Chris Farley, God bless him.
Guest:Oh, I did that.
Marc:i think i heard a story about him that kills me every time yeah this guy knew him in chicago i think back in the improv days and they you know and chris was in town and he's been successful and they were up all night they did mushrooms they were drinking or whatever and apparently uh chris was just sitting there and he just threw up on himself and he looked up and he said i guess i'm full yeah
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That is hilarious.
Guest:He wasn't fucked up when we were working, though.
Guest:He would actually ask me if he could leave when we were doing Black Sheep.
Guest:He would ask me if he could leave so he could go to meetings.
Guest:The AA meetings.
Marc:Yeah, everyone tries, man.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:People fight the fight and they lose the fight.
Marc:I see it all the time.
Marc:I'm coming up on 16.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So I've seen a lot of people come and go.
Marc:And it's always very... Once you get into hearing the stories and it has an effect on you, it really connects you with something very tangible about life and about struggle and about the redemption.
Marc:I mean, if I go to a meeting, and I know I'm not supposed to talk about this publicly,
Marc:or whatever, but I don't care.
Marc:You know, like, when I hear a story, like, right at the moment where, you know, where AA, where they find it, I'm like, oh, yeah.
Marc:That's the best part of the story.
Marc:But, yeah, it's good.
Guest:I just thought I was terminally unique.
Guest:I didn't think anybody else could possibly relate to what was going on in my life.
Guest:It's crazy, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I had...
Guest:right and no one's like me possibly yes and then you walk in like everyone's like you and you're like holy fuck one of them can you imagine when i was going through the poor me when uh she when i saw that she was addicted yeah after having gone through the death of her father because of drugs that's all i could think about my daughter's gonna die the same thing the old man did
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was only then that we really, really got back together.
Guest:And it's hard to believe that you don't know if something's bad or good until some time has passed.
Guest:And that was the most horrible time of my entire life.
Marc:Was it when she was strung out?
Guest:No, when she was strung out.
Marc:When she was.
Guest:I was able to take it better because I knew Bobby was going to go.
Guest:There was no other question about it.
Guest:I was really secretive.
Guest:Nobody could figure out what the hell was going on with me.
Guest:Just a lot of concern.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Like, what's going on?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I had a lot of secrets.
Guest:What were you doing?
Guest:um i was taking a lot of doctor prescribed medications and the scary thing is i didn't doctor shop i didn't go to multiple doctors for it it was all from the same doctor and it was excessive i don't know how they i don't know how happens look i you know it's astounding to me that doctors can do that
Marc:Yeah, I think some of them are not really clear because a lot of them are not sensitive to addiction and they listen to your complaints.
Marc:I mean, you underestimate the charm of somebody in need of drugs.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I got good at complaining.
Marc:Sure, exactly.
Guest:I'm still in pain.
Guest:Still hurts.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, it's dicey.
Guest:It's more, more and more.
Marc:And you do, and your dependence gets higher, so you need more.
Marc:Your tolerance, right.
Marc:Well, so now I guess through this process of you getting sober, you guys have gotten tremendously closer.
Marc:And did you cop to your shit?
Marc:She must have been right about some things.
Guest:She did amazing.
Marc:Great.
Guest:She did so much work.
Guest:She still works on a daily basis.
Guest:And I am constantly noticing adjustments and change with her to this day.
Guest:I was totally humbled by that experience with her.
Guest:I mean, for about a year and a half, two years, all I did was cry all day long.
Guest:I would try to go to workout classes.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:The teacher would be looking at me going, are you all right?
Guest:I'd be just like snot coming down my face, you know, because I mean, it was devastating to me.
Guest:I didn't think I would ever pull out of it, you know.
Guest:And then when I got the idea to make her come to to ask her to come to work with me and she said she would.
Guest:If we did the decline movies, I'm like, that is so freaky.
Guest:Now I understand why the decline movies have not come out before now, because I needed to have this happen.
Guest:It brought me and my daughter closer together.
Guest:You know, it mended a very terrible situation.
Yeah.
Marc:And you owned the movies.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That helped.
Guest:Yes, but I could never put them out because it was so precious to me and I identified so much with them that I didn't want to fuck it up.
Guest:So I was just like, then I just won't put it out.
Guest:I just really wanted to do it right.
Guest:It had to be right, just right.
Guest:And that's why when we met, we looked for two years for the distributor and we found Shout Factory.
Marc:They did this prior box.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Mel Brooks box, they're great.
Guest:Shell Factory, those Foose brothers and Emmer totally rock.
Guest:And then my lawyer, David Pierce, put us all together.
Guest:And that was the magic moment.
Guest:We got together with them.
Guest:Anna started to work and she had to drag me into the editing room because it was like having my life flash before me.
Guest:I didn't want to look at the stuff.
Guest:see that's why you didn't put it out that's right you're right yeah what what were you ashamed of uh no you use that word i wasn't uh i i wasn't ashamed of anything it was a lot of um fear and hurt actually about not being able to get them released you know having controversy surround them for so many years and like what
Guest:um you're exploiting people you know you you know you didn't represent me right in in the movie by the people in the movie you know and i don't want them to be unhappy you know and generally now like you were talking about people work through stuff right you know somebody said they talked to chris holmes the other day he's not pissed anymore he used to yell at me at clubs hey bitch yell me some money you know really oh yeah you know it's like we paid you chris he's like well i don't remember wonder why uh-huh
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And so a lot of people are dead too, right?
Marc:A few.
Marc:They bitch too.
Marc:Well, look, I'm thrilled that it came together.
Marc:So now this beautiful box that's available?
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:June 30th?
Guest:Oh, June 30th, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, I love the shop factory.
Guest:And it saved my daughter's life.
Guest:That's the way I look at it.
Marc:Not only did it save her life, it sounds like she's working on other projects for you.
Guest:Oh, she is.
Guest:She is.
Guest:She's going at it here.
Guest:And she's really good at what she does.
Guest:And she's so good at handling people far better than me.
Marc:What is your role?
Marc:Like, what is your title?
Marc:right now in your monster you know what it's so weird yeah i hate titles uh-huh other than dog rescuer i'm like i'll do whatever i do no she does she has a producer credit on the box there you go i produce the box okay but like with this documentary project she's director you're gonna direct this to it yeah you gotta say your director i was told that by a famous director yes once you start directing you say your director
Guest:Oh, well, then I'm a director.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:How'd that feel?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a dog rescuer.
Guest:And a dog rescuer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you're working on that, and you guys are busy brainstorming Decline 4.
Guest:Yes, we started shooting it a little bit already, but now we had to put it aside so we could get the box sets out, but yeah.
Marc:Well, congratulations, and I'm glad you guys are getting along, and I'm glad you're healthy, and I'm glad you seem to be lightening up a little bit, letting things go, Penelope Spirits.
Guest:You know what, Mark?
Guest:What?
Guest:You're such a charmer.
Guest:I could totally understand why the president would call you up and say if he could come and visit you.
Guest:I could totally understand that.
Guest:You are a total charmer.
Guest:Were you like that when you weren't clean?
Guest:Were you a charmer?
Guest:No.
Marc:No, I was a sweaty, angry mess.
Right?
Marc:I had some charm, but it was to a very select group of people.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:He's very passionate.
Guest:And just to get what you wanted.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Well, we appreciate you talking to us.
Marc:And nice to talk to you.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So that's it.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:That was Penelope Spiros, her daughter, Anna Fox, there at the end.
Marc:And that box set of the Decline of Western Civilization available at Shout Factory.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Denver and Boulder.
Marc:Come on out.
Marc:Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado, Friday, July 24th.
Marc:Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado, Saturday, July 25th.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:All right, I got to get it together.
Marc:Boomer lives!