Episode 607 - Haley Joel Osment / Jerry Stahl
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:This is the podcast.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:Can I just reach out right here at the beginning to any of my listeners in the Chicago area?
Marc:Look, I want to tape my special there.
Marc:It's coming up this Saturday.
Marc:I'm there for two shows.
Marc:I'm at the Vic.
Marc:Now, I know there's a threat of hockey.
Marc:I'm taping this the day of the hockey game.
Marc:I know there's a threat of hockey.
Marc:I don't know how that will affect my attendance.
Marc:I don't know how that will affect the city.
Marc:There's concern amongst the powers that be that perhaps I should move my special.
Marc:But I think I would like to prove them wrong.
Marc:I think I would like all of you people in Chicago to come to my shows at the Vic, if you could.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash calendar for the links to those shows and get tickets, please, Chicago.
Marc:I want to tape my special there.
Marc:I don't want to have to move it a couple of months down the line because of a sporting event.
Marc:Or because you guys had something better to do.
Marc:This isn't a desperate plea.
Marc:It's just I got it on the books and then someone worried me about hockey.
Marc:You guys are going to know by the time you hear this whether hockey will be happening on this coming Saturday, the day of my special.
Marc:Whether the city of Chicago will be in shambles because of hockey.
Marc:Whether 90% of my fan base will just diminish that evening from my special taping to go to a hockey game.
Marc:You'll know this Monday.
Marc:And if there is no hockey on Saturday in Chicago, we are definitely doing the show.
Marc:If there is hockey, there might be a question and you will hear from me.
Marc:But as of right now, I'm coming.
Marc:So get your tickets, Chicago and surrounding areas, please.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Haley Joel Osment is on the show today.
Marc:And before that, my buddy Jerry Stahl will be in here talking about his new lease on life and his new book, OG Dad.
Marc:Jerry Stahl, the author of Permanent Midnight.
Marc:And many other books.
Marc:But I think you should check into all of Jerry Stahl's work.
Marc:This is a great and miraculous turnaround in the life.
Marc:And we'll talk about that in a minute.
Marc:Jerry is also a writer on the television show Marin.
Marc:I don't know if you're familiar with that show.
Marc:The third episode aired just this last week.
Marc:That was very emotional.
Marc:Some people ask me if those emotions were real.
Marc:The answer is yes, they were.
Marc:They were real.
Marc:And I got a lot of closure from processing that stuff in that form.
Marc:And I think I'm getting a lot of feedback from people in marriages.
Marc:Married people saying, dude, a little too close.
Marc:Cathartic.
Marc:Didn't know how to feel.
Marc:Helped out, maybe.
Marc:Don't know.
Marc:Good reviews.
Marc:Very happy about the reaction to last week's episode.
Marc:And more people are watching this season, which thrills me.
Marc:But this upcoming episode this week, this Thursday, Racegate, it's called.
Marc:How can I give you a one-liner or two-liner pitch that doesn't give the show away?
Marc:I decide that there's not enough black people.
Marc:Black guests, African-American guests on my podcast.
Marc:So I go to a black comedy club to feel it out, seek out some guests, see what's going on.
Marc:I book Bruce Bruce on the show, which wasn't easy in the episode.
Marc:And then after he leaves with his small entourage, there's something missing from the house.
Marc:So it's the inner struggle and the outer struggle of dealing with that.
Marc:That's all I'm going to give you.
Marc:I will tell you Dave Anthony is in the episode.
Marc:I will tell you that.
Marc:What the fuck do I need to talk about?
Marc:You know, the great leveling is upon us.
Marc:You realize that?
Marc:The days of superheroes are coming to an end.
Marc:You know, I saw a couple of tired superheroes in the last week or so.
Marc:Bono, Mick Jagger, the day of the superhero.
Marc:Everything will percolate now because of delivery systems and the way the media is so fragmented and spread out and the portals are so numerous.
Marc:Everything's just going to percolate along at the same level with a few kind of explosions here and there of people becoming transcendent.
Marc:And then they'll just sort of drift quickly into the background as just another sort of like, oh, everybody got a real blast.
Marc:boost of adrenaline excitement a few weeks ago from that thing and a few people made a few billion dollars but it's behind us now when's the next thing on the percolating leveled out playing field of everything is just okay am I speaking in too vague a way
Marc:What I'm saying is because we're so wired in to a hyper speed of consumerism, not much matters.
Marc:Everyone's just feeding.
Marc:Just feeding.
Marc:Not sure any of that made sense.
Marc:It seemed to make sense to me.
Marc:Maybe you can make some sense of it.
Marc:All right, so I'm very happy that my buddy Jerry stopped by.
Marc:I'm always happy to talk to Jerry.
Marc:I talk to Jerry a lot, but not on the mics.
Marc:And it's an amazing story.
Marc:Jerry Stahl, from a hopeless junkie to a hopeless hep C sufferer to now a non-hep C sufferer, completely healthy, new dad.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:It's a beautiful thing.
Marc:So let's go to my conversation with Jerry Stahl.
Marc:How's your child?
Marc:How's your child?
Marc:What are your tasks around the house with the baby?
Guest:First and foremost, try not to kill it.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:No dropping.
Guest:No dropping.
Guest:Don't put it on the hot thing.
Guest:Again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No spilling things.
Guest:I try not to infect it.
Guest:You know, we've often talked about not being the guy who walks into a room and just, like, depresses everybody for no apparent reason.
Guest:Suddenly, they're like, I don't know what happened.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was happy a minute ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that guy's in here.
Guest:God, the temperature's just like... Yeah.
Guest:Uh, I don't want to be the guy who infects my kid with like, you know, toddler depression.
Guest:I don't want to give her tot pression.
Guest:So the alternate title, but yeah.
Guest:Uh, so I, you know, I just work on being that fucking, I'm the fun guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just the fun guy.
Marc:I think it's done.
Marc:I think as knowing you personally, I think it's done wonders for your temperament in general.
Guest:Yeah, I'm much more tolerant of people who shit their pants.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Anywhere.
Marc:Anywhere.
Marc:In life.
Guest:In life, metaphorically, physically.
Marc:So you could be sitting next to the guy and the smell comes.
Marc:You're just like, it's okay, buddy.
Guest:It's okay, buddy.
Marc:Yeah, I got a baby.
Guest:I got a little thing right here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Let me clean you up.
Marc:Oh, look at that.
Marc:You just go into the infant-equipped restroom where the guy on the little...
Marc:Put him out, a little diaper bag with you.
Guest:Well, you know, I think the best investment since Pfizer came along with Viagra, the one stock tip I never took because I never took one, but the one I ever got.
Guest:But, you know, boomers, if you see the ads for diapers now, hipster diapers.
Guest:No, come on.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:You're making it up.
Guest:No.
Guest:Really?
Guest:On my mother's grave.
Guest:And you know how I feel about my mother.
Guest:It's like you don't have to stop.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Don't have time to slow down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's amazing.
Guest:And they're all kind of cool and they show like cool guys driving the cool car.
Guest:Why haven't I seen this?
Guest:It's on TV?
Guest:Oh, fuck it.
Guest:Well, because I'm up at night.
Marc:Like a depends angle?
Guest:Yeah, it depends.
Guest:New depends.
Guest:It's new depends and it depends.
Marc:for you yeah with like the uh with like the grateful dead steal your face logo on the diaper or perhaps uh the rolling stones tongue like the popular boomer that's what i'm thinking i think if you and i were investment entrepreneur types more than what we are you can make the sexy adult diaper absolutely yeah crotchless diaper come on it's for everybody not just for those people anymore no it's for us
Marc:Well, a crotchless diaper, I think, would defeat the purpose.
Marc:No, it kind of would.
Marc:But for special occasions.
Marc:But maybe one with some lace.
Marc:Oh, come on.
Marc:Why do people shit their pants?
Guest:Because they can.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But I mean, I guess that's because it's not all shit-based.
Marc:It's prostate.
Guest:I think it's mostly the prostate.
Guest:It's a lot of guys with dribbly prostate.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:Tater tots.
Guest:Tater tots.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:Well, you don't have to worry about that unsightly.
Guest:I mean, I've worn black for years.
Guest:People think it's a statement.
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:I don't want the fucking drip.
Marc:You're dripping.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:How long do you have to shake your dick out after?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:That's the eternal question.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I see guys doing it for so long, I think they're masturbating.
Yeah.
Marc:I know, but I understand it now.
Guest:But it doesn't matter how much you shake.
Guest:There's always that one drop.
Marc:Ah, shit.
Marc:Yeah, there's the stuff that's in the bladder.
Marc:It's sort of like, no, I'm going to wait until he's all zipped up.
Guest:Well, you know, I blew my kidneys out back in hep C days.
Guest:They were doing double duty.
Guest:So now, I mean, I go to the bathroom, then I either just turn around and go back, or I just walk to a different bathroom.
Marc:Oh, so, okay.
Marc:So, but yeah, have you talked about that?
Marc:This is like, see to me, when people ask me about Jerry Stahl, as they will, because we work together.
Marc:You wrote on my show this last season.
Marc:Yeah, high point.
Marc:It was a high point.
Marc:They're like, well, how's he doing?
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but he seems great.
Marc:Don't fuck with my reputation.
Marc:You're killing me, man.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I'm like, you know, he's got this baby.
Marc:He kicked the Hep C. It's fucking like he's like a new man.
Marc:People like him.
Marc:He's fun to have in a room.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, you know, I had that.
Marc:Does it bother you when I say that about you, though?
Guest:No, it's because it's the last frontier.
Guest:I mean, you know, I had that grim revelation when I got cured, like,
Guest:Jeez, man, you'd like spent your entire adult life either strung out or ill.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or dying, basically.
Marc:Well, most of the time that I knew you when we did another thing together and you were just sweaty and dying all the time.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:A lot of fun to be around.
Marc:Horrible medicine.
Marc:Well, that was, I think, a lot of it.
Marc:I mean, do you even remember?
Marc:Were you ever this free of that shit?
Marc:Never.
Marc:Free of dope and free of sickness?
Guest:No, never.
Guest:Wild.
Guest:Never.
Guest:At the ripe age of 113, I've emerged as like...
Guest:hey i'm okay i don't feel like shit i thought feeling like that was the human condition was this feeling like warmed over shit yeah yeah because i think it has a lot to do with that thing you were talking about before the sort of like being uh heavy in the room or being the guy who's just a drag well because you didn't feel well and you were like you but i you know you you want to rise above yeah and just suck it up but you know i i wasn't suck up able
Marc:So this is, like, to me, this is amazing because, like, I think I talked to you about, you know, writing a book.
Marc:But, you know, obviously you did your angle and you did it before I brought it up.
Marc:Jerry Stahl, this is OG Dad, the new collection of essays.
Marc:But, like, I thought maybe there was this outside chance that you would actually become, like, almost a spiritual kind of Buddha-like person
Marc:parent that saw life completely differently now that you have a baby but no you're saying i'm not maybe you are are you uh on the inside see i think that guy how do we get that out well i think that guy would really depress the room come on we expected worse out of you jerry buddha yeah here we go the wise one
Marc:You know, easy lotus boy.
Marc:But because you have a daughter who's in her 20s.
Marc:26, yeah.
Marc:That you were absent a bit during her childhood.
Guest:Well, let's just say I was a dope fiend.
Guest:And then possibly even worse, I was a celebrity dope fiend.
Guest:So I was the guy at birthday parties like the parents would herd their children to a different room.
Marc:Oh, there he is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Don't get any of him on you, either psychically or otherwise.
Guest:I heard him on Oprah.
Guest:He's creepy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So she had to grow up with that.
Guest:Yes, she did.
Guest:Now, with this- Riding buses.
Guest:I was living in a garage, not to brag.
Guest:I mean, it was- Riding buses to visit you?
Guest:Yeah, I would pick her.
Guest:I showed up miraculously, but not that that was necessarily a good thing.
Guest:Oh, you took a bus to- I took a- Or we would go to my garage on a bus, and I would take her back.
Guest:It was just like, oh.
Guest:No knock on bus riders, but it's LA.
Guest:So, you know, it ain't a prestige gig.
Marc:Now, are you aware?
Marc:Are you sort of showing this one attention with a vengeance?
Marc:Well, I'm in the house.
Guest:So there's that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I was kind of living at the corner of crack and eight ball.
Guest:So I wasn't doing a lot of dad.
Guest:I don't think I ever, you know, sadly really put my first child to bed or any of that stuff.
Guest:You know, no recollection of that.
Guest:i don't recall it because i don't think i did it right but there's a lot i just didn't recall anything the screaming i just wasn't there i thought i was like kind of a good dad considering that i had a like a zillion dollar a day dope habit yeah stole five out of her mom's purse every time i visited
Guest:I mean, I told you that story where her mother got busted.
Guest:It's like somebody was using your ATM card.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And I was that guy.
Guest:I was like, that's fucking awful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they go to the bank, and they have the tape, and it's me.
It's you.
Guest:Do you recognize that guy?
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:My doppelganger.
Marc:Had it again.
Marc:I don't know what it's like to have a kid because I don't have one, but I have to assume you feel like with the baby, you're a little more clear in terms of the type of love you feel.
Marc:Do you feel that love for the kid?
Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's the great thing about a kid.
Guest:I mean, you know, I love her.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it kind of makes me weirdly happy because it's so unambiguous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you love them unconditionally and you will disappoint them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, no.
Marc:But why do you got to think of that second part now?
Guest:Because it happens every day on some level.
Guest:They're like, I hate you.
Guest:You know, how old is she?
Guest:She's three already.
Guest:She hates you.
Guest:Well, temporarily.
Marc:All right.
Guest:You know, she's my kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She's got the genes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Walking around wearing black.
Yeah.
Guest:Only because she doesn't want people to see her drip.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:It's not a fashion thing.
Marc:You've given her the gift of self-awareness and insecurity.
Guest:Actually, that is the worst.
Guest:You know, seeing like the fashionista babies, you just want to fucking throw up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't love other parents.
Guest:I'm not going to lie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I do have to go back to like the daycare where like when my first child was little, I kind of like did a little too much heroin and passed out in the bathroom when they found me.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:In the daycare.
Guest:I have to walk by that little bathroom every day.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:yeah oh it's the same daycare it's the same place so i've like fully boomeranged yeah oh so you're back in daycare yeah they're like back oh this guy's still alive as a kid you made it fuck and uh how's your uh older kid take to the new kid you know she's really taken to her now but i mean initially of course i mean who wouldn't be like nice you're showing up for her yeah nice yeah nice
Guest:But she's a very cool kid.
Guest:I mean, in spite of having me as a father, she's a happy, well-adjusted, creative kid and very beautiful.
Marc:Your first daughter.
Marc:But I also think that it seems to me that you made the right genetic decision with the current wife.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, this one.
Guest:There were probably a couple.
Guest:Wouldn't have been a good idea.
Guest:I mean, we're just going to leave it at that.
Guest:No names, please.
Guest:I mean, we know each other's history.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Marc:This one looks like she comes from good stock.
Marc:She, Finnish, Irish, you know.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:That should erase the junkie Jew right out of this kid.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:This kid, forget it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's got a shot.
Guest:She's got a shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She'll spend a lot of time in saunas, but that's it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, I think she has a shot.
Guest:But you never know.
Guest:I mean, the world is so grotesque now that, you know, roads are melting in India, and every kid in America is getting blastoma from their parents leaving, you know, the cell phone near the head of the bed.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:yeah oh i can't like i'm not so horrible i'm not up to speed on my my topics of worry you know there's something about being selfish and detached from the current events in the news where it's sort of like oh geez there's a lot of things i should be feeling shitty about i mean the thing about us we're gonna be well out of it yeah but you know i just picture her like grubbing for cancer scraps you know when there's no water in 2030 it's gonna be fucking horrible is that when it's supposed to run out of water
Guest:We're out of water before then, but the cancer scraps kick in.
Marc:Oh, earlier?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Let's not talk about that.
Marc:So let's talk about the beauty of the kid.
Marc:What's her name?
Marc:Nico.
Marc:Now, the process of writing this book, this was a series of essays you were writing?
Guest:This is a series of columns, aka blogs, as the kids say, in the rumpus with a bunch of new ones.
Marc:And it started when the kid was born or when she was pregnant?
Guest:No, before, in utero.
Guest:Like, we were in Texas.
Guest:We had to go to have the baby in Texas because, as you know, I got on this medication, which as soon as I got on it, this experimental drug at Cedars, the first thing they said was, oh, and by the way, if a pregnant woman so much as, like, gets a drop of your sweat on her epidermis, the kid will be born with, like, you know, flippers and a three-day beard.
Guest:So, you know, mom had to go to Texas to be away from me.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And so I, when I was cured, you know, I finally go there and we do like the OBGYN stuff in Texas.
Guest:They had like never seen a Jew.
Guest:They're like, we're in the waiting room.
Guest:They're like, um, Mr. Stale, do you have the Jew panel?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because there's diseases only Jews.
Guest:You know, it's like Tay-Sachs.
Marc:It's like creepy Jew diseases.
Guest:They're horrible.
Guest:And everybody turns around.
Marc:I'm like, they're going to fucking... You didn't have Tay-Sachs, did you?
Marc:The Tay-Sachs gene?
Marc:I think I would be dead.
Marc:I don't think you live too long.
Marc:I don't know how... I think that's from incestuous... The Orthodox get it, right?
Guest:No, man.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:I think maybe they do.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:Don't apologize.
Guest:I have no... You can offend Orthodox all day long.
Guest:I try not to.
Guest:I hide my pass.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I wear them on the inside, if you know what I'm saying.
Marc:Your hair's curling on the inside.
Marc:Everything's curling on the inside.
Marc:So, okay, so it started in... Well, you know what's weird is when I told Siri to call you...
Marc:She does the full pronunciation in German.
Marc:She goes, calling Jerry Stahl.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Siri does that.
Marc:Siri does that.
Marc:Stahl.
Guest:Stahl.
Guest:Stahl works.
Guest:In German, it means steel.
Guest:Does it?
Guest:As in S-T-E-E-L?
Guest:In America, yes.
Guest:That would be S-T-E-L.
Guest:Not S-T-E-A-L.
Guest:Nice pun, but...
Guest:I didn't... I was working my way up to stealing.
Guest:I was more of a, like, just shove it under my shirt and run.
Marc:So this is the big release for Father's Day.
Marc:Huge release.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Come on, OG Dad.
Marc:This is... I think...
Marc:I think eventually, I don't know if it's in this particular book, but there will come a time where you will shed all of the darkness.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And just become pure light.
Marc:You don't think I'm there yet?
Marc:No, I don't know what it would be like to hang around with you like that.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Generally, people who claim to be that are intolerable.
Guest:But I feel, I mean, I have to say, I feel the same way about you.
Guest:I mean, you've become a much lighter guy.
Marc:I definitely have.
Guest:I've known you for a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were not a bunch of like fun dudes.
Guest:I mean, we were great for each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We could one down each other all fucking night long.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, right.
Marc:I think when we both met, I was definitely aggravated and angry and not well in my mind.
Marc:And you were sweaty and sick.
Guest:And perfectly well in my mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I actually learned, like, there's a way that you kind of, when you are listening or something, like, I took some trick from you when I interviewed, actually.
Guest:I remember talking about this, yeah.
Marc:Did I talk to you about it on the mics?
Marc:No, not at all, no.
Marc:I'm trying to remember what it was.
Marc:Well, there's just a way that you kind of, like, almost, you have a boundary or something.
Marc:When you listen, you just sort of have this gaze that's sort of flat.
Guest:It's a kind of detachment, but paying attention at the same time.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:There's a detachment to it, but you're engaged.
Marc:And I noticed that you did it, and I learned how to do it during interviews.
Marc:I think it's very, it's like you're receiving, but you're not, you can't be read as judgment, and it can't be read as like, you know, it's passive.
Guest:Well, I'll tell you where that started.
Guest:You know, I did journalism for most of my like for 20s and 30s.
Guest:It was pre-internet So yeah, it only exists in my storage bin, right?
Guest:But I was so fucked up that I couldn't really, you know, keep us, you know I just would stare at people like I'd kind of do the forehead, you know, the right the concern puppy wrinkles right for the concern wrinkles Yeah, and just kind of nod once and people take that and
Guest:As vast concentration on the fascinating things.
Guest:But you were just trying not to nod off?
Guest:I was just trying like not to go away.
Guest:Visibly.
Guest:That's where that came from?
Guest:Well, then ultimately, I don't know if you've learned this interviewing, but everybody has a story.
Guest:And when they get to the end of their tape, whatever that thing is, if you just shut the fuck up, there'll be like an awkward, horrific pause.
Guest:And then they get to the real shit.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Have you found that?
Marc:Usually it's right when I turn the mics off.
Marc:Right.
Marc:when it happens for me yeah that's when shit gets real yeah an hour and 15 minutes i'll turn the mic off and it's like yeah my dad shot somebody i'm like did you not want to say that on there yeah i i know that about i've seen that happen yeah yeah and sometimes i'll i'll ask if we can get it back on do you ever do that do you ever say could you just like repeat what you just said and then you hit the mic again
Marc:well i i will start talking about something like after i turn the mics off and then uh i'll be like did you not do i think we should talk about this on the air do you want and if they go yeah yeah and i'll just turn it back on and and figure out a way to reset it you know i i don't generally let them go through the whole story i'm like this seems like something we should be talking and then yeah yeah i've done that i've done that yeah i've turned it back on and then sometimes people are like no i don't want to talk about that it's like great that's the most interesting thing about you exactly that i hate that
Guest:more that is the worst there's so many you know there's so many people who do that yeah just sort of like are the mic are we well yeah but are we off the record now let me tell you what the truth yeah and you're like what the did you just do for an hour exactly what it would it write this thing and i gotta know and you've been bullshitting me for an hour and a half right and i gotta know in my heart my mind that we were skirting around this which this is what we were dodging it's just kind of insulting to you as an interviewer on some level yeah but what are you gonna do about that nothing
Marc:I mean, it doesn't usually... You're going to give them the gaze of acceptance.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it doesn't usually mean that what you have is a lie.
Marc:No.
Marc:But it's avoiding.
Guest:It's also less interesting than the truth.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But people also know it when they hear it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:They know when people are dodging or... Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, but I can't do that, you know, setting the person up.
Marc:Like, after we were done with this interview, she told me the truth about what happened.
Marc:And this is sort of, I guess, a great example of someone dodging the truth.
Marc:Because that thing...
Guest:Because she told me about the thing with her dad.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:I can't tell you.
Marc:See if you can feel the heat of it when she's talking about ice cream in the middle.
Marc:Listen in between the words.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Well, people do.
Marc:I think that's the nature of the medium.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, like you and Terry Gross, I mean, you got some...
Marc:amazing shatter you have such a great gift for that well it's funny because like but i also knew like when she wasn't like it's like we're like i knew when she was not going to go somewhere you know but and you you were very gracious but yeah you also didn't let her slide no i didn't i couldn't the first husband come the fuck on who knew yeah that guy she was concerned she's like
Marc:I hope you didn't throw him under the bus.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:She didn't throw anybody under the bus.
Guest:No, she didn't.
Guest:But I don't know if you have... I have this thing where I've done interviews over the years where it's like, I'm sort of already the leper because I'm like the junkie weirdo guy who has confessed every heinous thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So people talk to you because I'm like outside the herd.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:No, no, yeah.
Guest:And you are very honest about your emotional trauma.
Marc:I get that too, but not because of the same... Yeah.
Marc:Well, I know that like...
Marc:I don't know what it is, because it's not quite the same, because people also know that I do have a public forum, that I talk out loud for a living.
Guest:Right, as opposed to a guy who just retreats into a corner.
Guest:The dark holder of secrets.
Marc:Jerry Stahl.
Marc:Yeah, it's a business card.
Marc:Dark holder of secrets.
Marc:AKA the vault.
Marc:Yeah, the vault.
Marc:No, but I think that people... Because I'm upfront about my own personal struggle, I think that enables people to think that they... Hell yeah, because nobody else is doing that, really.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But that's a lot of pressure, isn't it?
Marc:To be like the guy that is sought out to be the confessor, and then you're sort of limited to the box.
Guest:It's like... Well, it is...
Marc:on one level it's pressure you could also say if you want to be an enlightened asshole that it's a privilege yeah but I mean I do know a lot of shit about a lot of people that I will take to the grave because what else are you going to do well that's but that's what I always wonder about that and the same with what I do is that I don't socialize a lot I mean you and I have a good time we hang out we'll get something to eat we'll have some laughs you're kind of my best friend how often do we even see each other right exactly it's like you know when you're these guys when you're the guy that talks about himself all the time or you're the holder of secrets they're like I'm not going to invite him because because
Marc:He's just going to be standing there knowing all that shit about me, and I don't want to be reminded of it.
Marc:Makes me really uncomfortable, quite honestly.
Guest:I actually don't like him.
Guest:I kind of resent what he knows now.
Guest:Because there is that.
Guest:There's that thing where people kind of turn on you because they know you know.
Marc:Or you assume they do.
Marc:They do know you know.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:Good point.
Guest:I could be projecting.
Marc:I mean, usually we are, but there is evidence that I'm not invited that often.
Marc:Do you know, like, I don't hang out with a lot of people.
Guest:See, in your case, I would argue that that's because people think you're famous, you're successful.
Guest:He's probably busy.
Marc:I'm just, like, yesterday, I'm at home, you know, just looking in my refrigerator nine times, ten times.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Snacking a lot.
Marc:And then, like, I finally got to a level of anxiety where I had no choice but to polish my boots.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Yeah, polish the boots.
Marc:Did three or four loads of laundry.
Marc:One of them wasn't even necessary.
Marc:We should have just done the interview while that was happening.
Marc:That would have been great.
Marc:But then I think, like, why don't I go out and why don't I give so-and-so a call?
Marc:And then it gets hard to fill in that blank.
Marc:Why don't I give a call?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who am I going to call?
Marc:You know, where I could just sit here.
Marc:I mean, I call you and we talk, but, you know, you're busy.
Marc:But I'm just saying, like, what am I going to do?
Marc:Yeah, I'm busy doing my laundry.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So then I drive around and, you know, I go shopping and I'll go say hi to somebody.
Marc:I go to the record store to say hi to that guy.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm no different socially.
Guest:I know all the checkers at Gelson's a little too well.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I'm better with strangers, you know?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:All right, so we're just loners by virtue of our gifts.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And nothing makes for a better dad than a creepy loner.
Guest:Yeah, but you're home at least.
Marc:I am home.
Guest:I'm home now.
Guest:Is the kid talking?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Blue streak.
Guest:What's she saying?
Guest:She's lying a lot.
Guest:I had that three.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:It's like, is this the junkie gene kicking in?
Guest:It's like, yeah, mommy said I could like take the chocolate and just pretty much eat it all.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Already?
Guest:Really?
Guest:I don't think that happened.
Guest:but that's what she knows oh my god the deceit really holy do you laugh is it funny to you i i engage i said really when when did she say that really and um okay well and go ahead i guess good parenting mommy said if you're telling me the truth you know what if you're lying it's a good lie yeah yeah you got me you convinced me it's really fascinating man the level of dishonesty and manipulation it's
Guest:to get what they want to get what they want yeah yeah because when they're a little young she was a little younger she just turned three last it was tears it'd be like traumatic public public screaming right and and can i just say that screaming in public that'll get when you look like me and you have a little kid it's like they're not going to take my side yeah what did you do to her yeah beast we're just calling you know amber alert yeah um but now it's all about lies and manipulation it's beautiful
Marc:she's really good at it well it's sort of interesting that that's the that's the instinct that like you have to teach that's something you have to teach them not to do yes is get their needs met by any means necessary i mean i shouldn't be rewarding her giving her the chocolate well it's there's so many i mean like i haven't read a lot of books yeah apparently why should you swing it wing it go with your instincts i mean you never read how fucking
Guest:boring it is sometimes yeah or the truly disturbing thing and you know this could get us but it's this is a reality of yeah both my daughters came out of the room yeah and the womb yeah basically let's just say touching themselves yeah let's just leave it at that right and you know you don't you don't see that on the uh chicken soup for the baby books no the the sort of weird compulsive masturbatory habits of of toddlers yeah
Marc:I've heard that.
Marc:I mean, I think boys do it, too.
Marc:I know I had a cousin that was very attached to the banister once she figured out how to manage that.
Guest:I've got like the Ethel Merman laugh today.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Rubbing up against things.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Look, why wouldn't you?
Guest:Until somebody tells you to stop, what the hell?
Guest:What age is the cutoff where you can't just reach into your pan?
Guest:I'm doing it now.
Marc:No one ever told me.
Marc:I try not to do it in public.
Marc:I'm not doing it now when I'm talking to you.
Guest:Well, I see the table stops right about chest levels.
Marc:That's my key to doing a good interview.
Marc:I just got my hat on my dick all the time.
Guest:He got really excited for a minute, and then he just kind of petered.
Guest:But I know when we first put her in diapers, she was like, what?
Guest:I'm like tapping it.
Guest:Like, what the hell?
Marc:Who shut the door?
Marc:Oh, that's hilarious.
Guest:Like, why is there an obstacle here?
Guest:Why would you do that to me?
Guest:It's my one pleasure.
Marc:Oh, that's hilarious.
Marc:So she's a lying, chronic masturbator at three.
Guest:The masturbating is low.
Guest:That's gone.
Marc:Oh, it is?
Guest:But not as much.
Marc:I mean, I think she likes to hold her for security.
Marc:Right.
Guest:As who doesn't.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, it's not.
Guest:I think when you're a baby, it's like, what else?
Guest:You have no other, nothing else, shitting and touching yourself.
Marc:No, you're going to have to figure that stuff out.
Marc:So, now, would you say that this book, OG Dad, is an effective baby book?
Marc:Would this be helpful to parents?
Marc:Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Guest:You know, much to my surprise, and I didn't know the publisher was going to do this, if you turn the book over, it lists it as parenting.
Marc:Does it really?
Guest:And I kind of had a shit fit about that, but then I thought, you know what?
Guest:It is.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Parenting.
Guest:I thought memoir, humor, essays.
Marc:No, dude.
Marc:I think this might be the right place for it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I am the guy.
Marc:If they pick it up for the wrong reason, that would be surprising.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why is he always talking about heroin?
Guest:I don't understand.
Guest:Very specific parenting experience.
Guest:And yet universal.
Guest:It's also...
Guest:This was so it's weird.
Guest:Shit happens when you don't die young.
Guest:I mean, I didn't expect to be rolling back into dad, but what the hell?
Guest:But I looked at I looked at it's coming.
Guest:You just call me dad almost but knowing your dad.
Marc:That's quite an ambiguous honor.
Marc:No
Marc:No, but I tell you, and I tell you honestly, I've never seen you happier and more clear in the eyes.
Marc:Skin looks good.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:You seem relaxed.
Marc:You spent a whole season writing for my show.
Marc:You were in a room with other people every day.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And we had a good time.
Guest:My first staff gig ever.
Marc:And you were nervous about that originally.
Guest:You're like, no, no, no.
Guest:I think not as nervous as you.
Guest:I mean, come on, be honest, motherfucker.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I think he's doing... I think he's okay.
Marc:He's better with other people now.
Marc:I swear to God, he's not the same guy from a year ago.
Marc:He's not... Only a year ago.
Guest:It's so true.
Guest:I've lost... I mean, I look at my life and just the parade of embarrassing gigs and weird shit that happens.
Marc:Because of your own discomfort, though.
Marc:no doubt yeah projecting it and suffering and yeah we had a good time everybody respected you and you did a great job and we had fun oh mom you got a smart bunch of guys in there i mean come on it was a lot of fun yeah it's a lot of fun when like no one has anything to contribute and we're just waiting for something to break and there's just like seven guys in a room tweeting yeah tweeting looking at their mail and then finally i go oh
Guest:what what are we doing what the fuck what the fuck is happening every fucking week it's like this what are we gonna do with this beat right here and i hate this gum yeah yeah shit that's writing that's staff writing i was really blown away by the fact that i had spent my entire life avoiding people i think i became a novelist not because i have any fucking talent yeah what else can you do like making alone at three in the morning yeah you know yeah um so being in with you guys is like wow
Guest:This is actually kind of great.
Marc:And here you are.
Marc:I guess to bring it full circle is that you're 60 and there's a new lease on life.
Marc:You have a new infant child and you begrudgingly are feeling better about things.
Marc:And this book is the result of that.
Marc:And a functioning liver, which makes it all possible.
Marc:Now, do you regenerate that?
Guest:My virus was wiped out.
Marc:No, I get that, but do liver cells regenerate?
Marc:Like, is your liver growing now?
Marc:Does that happen with a liver?
Marc:I can hardly sit down.
Marc:It's so big.
Marc:Or whatever.
Marc:Does it get, like, whatever damage was done, does that regenerate, I guess is what I'm asking.
Guest:I think it's probably still got the consistency of an old shoe, maybe a little scarred.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:I'm not spending all my energy fighting off death.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have color, man.
Marc:You have color in your face.
Guest:I really appreciate that, man.
Marc:It's fucking great, and I'm happy about the book, and I'm happy for everything that's going on, man.
Guest:Well, I'm happy we're still here kind of being friends.
Marc:We're better friends now than we ever have been.
Marc:We have some good laughs, buddy.
Marc:We do, yeah.
Marc:All right, Jerry, thanks, man.
Marc:Thank you, man.
Marc:Jerry.
Marc:The book is OG, Dad.
Marc:You should look into it.
Marc:You should read a lot of Jerry's books.
Marc:Jerry is a powerful proseman.
Marc:A prose master.
Marc:The guy.
Marc:Puts a lot into it, man.
Marc:A lot of punch in the prose.
Marc:Let his punchy prose punch you in the head.
Marc:Right in the brain.
Marc:So now...
Marc:Haley Joel Osment, who's in the Entourage movie, which comes out on June 3rd.
Marc:I hear he's very good in it.
Marc:I've heard that.
Marc:But you know, Haley, from The Sixth Sense, I'm slowly stroking out.
Marc:I'm slowly incapacitated mouth-wise.
Marc:But he was also in Forrest Gump.
Marc:And...
Marc:Pay It Forward was a big one.
Marc:AI, artificial intelligence, a big Haley Joel Osment movie.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Oh, my fucking God.
Marc:He was a kid actor.
Marc:You always wonder how those kid actors turn out with this kid.
Marc:He's very level-headed.
Marc:Nice guy.
Marc:Let's talk to...
Marc:Haley Joel Osment.
Marc:I'm only saying it like that because I have problems with L's.
Marc:Haley Joel Osment.
Marc:Now.
Marc:How are you, man?
Marc:Good, man.
Marc:How you doing?
Marc:So you're doing the one-ear thing.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know why.
Marc:I've always done that.
Marc:That's a professional trick.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Where'd you first see the one-ear cans move?
Guest:It just came naturally to me.
Guest:I've recorded this video game series since I was like 10 or 11, and I always just like to hear myself a little in the room.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was just a natural adaptation.
Marc:Yeah, it just felt right.
Marc:You were like, yeah, I can do this in here.
Marc:So the last time I saw you was on a rooftop...
Marc:In Hollywood.
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Marc:What was that for again?
Guest:That was a pre-Emmy party, and I was there, I believe, for The Spoils of Babylon.
Guest:And actually, Billy Bob was there, too.
Guest:We just finished Entourage.
Marc:Did you know you were doing Entourage when you saw him at that thing?
Marc:We were right in the middle of it.
Marc:Oh, you were?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, he's an odd fella.
Guest:You know, I didn't know what to expect going to work with him, and he's just the funniest, coolest guy, and also a great musician.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's got a rock band.
Guest:He does, yeah.
Guest:I got to get him in here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think he gave me his phone number, if I remember correctly.
Guest:Yeah, he would be a fascinating interview.
Guest:He's had such a cool career.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, he's sort of in his own time zone, that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:You get around him and you're like, well, this is another planet here.
Guest:It was nice because I play his son in the movie and he has such a distinctive voice.
Guest:I had to have this kind of thick accent for the movie.
Guest:What accent?
Guest:We're Texans in the movie.
Guest:We've got Glock on the hip and horses and cowboy boots and everything.
Guest:He's from Arkansas originally and that was a fun voice to come up with.
Marc:Well, you grew up in this.
Marc:Your family's from the South?
Guest:Are you Southern?
Guest:I was born out here, but my parents moved out.
Guest:They were both born in Birmingham, Alabama, and they moved out here in 1985.
Guest:That's real South?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Do they talk like Southerners?
Guest:I can hear it a little bit with my mom, but it's been now exactly 30 years since they moved out here.
Guest:My dad, I can't really hear it at all anymore.
Guest:But from family and everything, it's a very familiar accent.
Guest:Although Alabama's an even thicker accent in a way than Texas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's some pretty... How did... So, Hallie Joel Osment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's the real name?
Guest:Yeah, that is the real name.
Marc:And that sounds like some Southern history to that name.
Marc:I guess, maybe.
Guest:It's, you know, we're Irish Catholic from the South, so a lot of, like, saints' names, a lot of Michaels and Patricks and everything.
Guest:And my parents pulled both my sister and my names out of just a book, just wanted to put something fun together.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just a book?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's your sister's name?
Guest:Emily Jordan Osmond.
Marc:Well, she got, it seems like she got an easier go of it.
Guest:I guess, you know, Jordan's kind of unusual.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Guest:Emily, Hallie's odd.
Guest:I have never met another guy with that as his first name.
Guest:You know, a lot of girls, but very few people who actually have it spelled the same name too.
Guest:Haley Dekel from the Dirty Projectors was spelled the same.
Marc:Is that what you say?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I keep saying Hallie.
Guest:Yeah, that's fine too.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:They didn't know how to, nobody knows how Edmund Halley's name was actually pronounced.
Marc:Is it Haley?
Marc:Haley, yeah.
Marc:So Haley's the way to go.
Marc:Haley's the way to go.
Marc:But you don't correct people.
Marc:Nah, you know.
Marc:So I have to correct people when they spell my name wrong.
Marc:So did you have family down there?
Marc:I mean, did you travel to the South?
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:A lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I was a kid, we were out there at least every summer.
Guest:In Birmingham.
Guest:In Birmingham.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, the more I go back to the South, the more I fucking love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and Birmingham particularly is a city that's having a, you know, a lot of stuff going on in the, in the downtown area.
Guest:A lot of, a lot of good food things going on there.
Marc:Every little city now is like reinventing itself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With restaurants.
Marc:This whole, the food network has changed the entire culture of America.
Marc:Every fucking city of any size has their chef guy.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:has their good restaurant, their quote-unquote good restaurant.
Marc:Artisanal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was in Asheville shooting a movie a year and a half ago, and they were like, this is our locally produced wine.
Guest:I was like, from the mountains of North Carolina.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was just there.
Guest:Yeah, Asheville's a cool town.
Marc:It is.
Marc:I was only there for like a day, and I didn't really get around, but it seems to be just this weird little kind of old-style hippie art town.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It actually has a longer history back than the hippies, but it just seems to be a kind of progressive little haven in the middle of what is, I assume, a pretty red state.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:De Niro's father actually painted at a commune, or not a commune, but he lived and painted near Asheville.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, for many years, I believe.
Marc:Those Blue Ridge Mountains are pretty, man.
Marc:I never drove through there before.
Marc:That was gorgeous.
Guest:Yeah, that whole region.
Guest:We were shooting a movie that had a lot to do with Civil War history in Appalachia.
Marc:What movie was that?
Guest:A film called The World Made Straight, which came out a couple months ago.
Marc:And how'd that do?
Marc:Where'd that go?
Marc:What happened to that movie?
Guest:I believe we were well-reviewed, but it was just a small release.
Guest:We had Jeremy Irvine in it, who's great, and Noel Wiley and Minka Kelly, and Steve Earle, which was really neat to have him.
Guest:I know Steve Earle.
Guest:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:He's all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's made some good records, that guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Marc:Was that the last movie you made?
Guest:No, we actually shot that a while ago.
Guest:I just finished a movie in the fall called Sleepwalker,
Guest:And that has Richard Armitage and Anna O'Reilly, and that'll be coming out later in the summer.
Marc:What is that about?
Guest:I play a kind of a nasty stalker type character who's sort of after this girl, the lead.
Marc:What is this new Haley Joel Osment heavies?
Marc:I know, man.
Guest:What's happening?
Guest:It's fun.
Guest:I think growing the beard helped.
Guest:I don't know what I originally did that for.
Guest:I think it was for the first season of Spoils of Babylon.
Guest:And I think the last time I saw you, I probably had a pretty long, pretty big beard.
Marc:Yeah, you had a beard going.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you were like the wonder kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were the gifted one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now you're playing heavies.
Guest:Yeah, it's fun not being the moral center of the movie.
Marc:You want to be the moral left of center of the movie.
Marc:Yeah, somewhere around there.
Marc:Well, I mean, how did that happen?
Marc:I mean, so you were born in L.A.
Marc:Were your folks in show business?
Marc:My dad moved to L.A.
Guest:to work at a theater called Theater 3 on Santa Monica Boulevard.
Guest:And he ended up being the general manager of that theater.
Guest:uh, in the late eighties.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But my, um, involvement in it was just sort of by accident.
Guest:I was, my mom was shopping at Ikea in Burbank one day and they had, um, one of those things where they had two casting assistants taking Polaroids of every kid that walked in.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And yeah.
Marc:And my, you say that like that's a regular thing.
Guest:Well, it used to be, um, they don't, I don't think they do commercials like that anymore.
Guest:And I remember going to these cattle call auditions as a kid, we'd have like a thousand people there.
Guest:So they were just scouting or they were literally looking for kids for commercials.
Guest:for ikea yeah no it was for uh for pizza hut but they were they were uh next to the like kids area of ikea so they were just like weird predatory like they were predatory casting agents no they were it was nice like young assistants you know the i remember it was like nice but they were scouting at ikea yeah well and and next to like the ball pit you know where kids congregate yeah okay so i think that's why they sent two women instead of two guys to go not fucking creepy yeah sure you're a casting agent yeah oh my god yeah
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're just minding your business and they come out of nowhere and go, that's the kid?
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:Two very immediate strokes of luck was that one where I was part of this Bigfoot pizza thing for what was ultimately a terrible pizza promotion.
Guest:They had the Bigfoot pizza, which is this terrible thin crust pizza.
Guest:But the casting agent for Forrest Gump saw it.
Guest:You were unhappy with your first role.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:Yeah, I was.
Marc:As a pizza pitch man.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:They disappointed with what you got behind.
Guest:But then it led to the casting agent for Forrest Gump seeing it.
Guest:And I came in and read with them and then read with Hanks.
Guest:And then that was my first project.
Marc:So the casting agent for Forrest Gump sees your shitty pizza commercial.
Marc:Does he take you to task for the pizza?
Marc:Does he say that was not good pizza?
Marc:She did not.
Marc:She did not take that up with me.
Marc:She was like, that kid's got something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're how old?
Marc:Four.
Four.
Guest:four yeah that's fucking crazy i know yeah so you read what tom hanks at four yeah do you have any recollection of that a very very clear memory of that yeah yeah i guess you would sort of have to well it's in a way with that whole experience like one the the clearest memories of uh of that shoot was i learned to tie my shoes on the steps outside our holiday and hotel room in beaufort south carolina and
Guest:where we were shooting the gun pal stuff.
Marc:Who taught you?
Guest:Yeah, my dad.
Marc:Oh, he was there on set with you the whole time?
Guest:Yeah, I think I'm giving credit to the right parent.
Guest:Both my mom and dad came.
Marc:Well, if that upsets him, then you have bigger problems.
Marc:How dare you say that your father just made up a voice for your mom.
Marc:can't be right can't be right all right so so oh that shoots where so that was in South Carolina they shot all over the country but my stuff was in Savannah and Buford South Carolina at the big house at the big house yeah with that who was the woman that played your mom uh Robin Wright oh yeah yeah yeah which is crazy so all right so you remember learning how to tie your shoes and reading with Tom Hanks
Marc:But do you have memories of the set?
Marc:Do you have memories of doing that work?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:The first day I was there, it rained a lot while we were down there.
Guest:And I believe it was the production that got delayed a lot.
Guest:And it rained so much that we opened the door to the trailer after like three hours of downpour.
Guest:And the area where they had base camp had flooded to like knee level on an adult.
Guest:So the PAs were...
Guest:in waders carrying me above this swamp water to get to the set.
Guest:And one of the first things we shot was the final scene on the bench where he opens a book and the feather goes off and everything.
Guest:And Zemeckis and Hanks rewrote the scene a little bit on the last day, minutes before we shot it.
Guest:And Hanks got this yellow legal pad and wrote out the new dialogue and my lines on it.
Guest:We actually saved it.
Guest:And I still have this little thing, you know, Hanks' handwritten sides for me.
Guest:So that was it.
Guest:And so he was a nice guy to you?
Guest:Absolutely, yeah.
Guest:Do you guys ever talk?
Guest:I saw him a couple years ago.
Guest:It was a while ago now, but I went and spoke at his AFI Lifetime Achievement thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, he's a great guy.
Marc:I always assume that everybody keeps in touch, and it's a ridiculous assumption.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's a pretty big movie to do out of the gate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then what happens?
Marc:You do a bunch of kids' movies?
Guest:No, I actually did network television after that.
Guest:I was on a show with Ed Asner called Thunder Alley.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Oh, Ed Asner.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, he's a great guy.
Marc:He's a funny, cranky man.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, he was terrific.
Marc:So you did like, oh, you did a shitload of those.
Guest:Yeah, I did that, and then Foxworthy's show, and then finally Murphy Brown, the last season of Murphy Brown.
Guest:So I did like those three series kind of in a row.
Marc:But Thunder Alley and Foxworthy's show, you did a lot of episodes.
Marc:Yeah, it's two seasons each, I believe.
Marc:Did they not last longer than that, basically?
Guest:I think both were canceled after two seasons.
Marc:That was it for that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did a lot of little roles.
Marc:So you were just a working kid actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Before you became like the boy wizard in that one movie.
Marc:Almost.
Marc:So now when you're doing that, how were you... Because I...
Marc:I'm going to talk to a couple of you guys.
Marc:You freaks.
Marc:You freaks of nature.
Marc:You children actor people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I talked to Seth Green.
Marc:And you talked to Amber Tamblyn, I believe, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you are the most prolific of the youngsters who did that as a child.
Marc:And you were, I think, a great actor.
Marc:I think you still are.
Marc:I don't think you lose that.
Marc:Did you train at all or did you just have this natural weird gift...
Guest:Well, my dad studied theater in college, and he had a great theater professor there named Dr. Oliver Link, who studied at Cornell.
Guest:Where'd your dad go to college?
Guest:What was then West Georgia College and now is, I believe, West Georgia University became a university.
Guest:But yeah, they just did, you know...
Guest:Godot, Runner Stumble, you know, Three Penny Opera, everything.
Guest:And so he had this great foundation in theater studies and theater acting.
Guest:And so even from a young age, it was going through the script and, you know, character study and rehearsal and stuff like that.
Guest:So it was a really good sort of foundation.
Guest:You did that with your dad?
Guest:Yeah, you know, and as a younger kid, it wasn't quite so much going through and finding the beats and everything.
Guest:But as I got older, and certainly by the time of The Sixth Sense, it was, you know, we would be, you know, going through the script, you know, taking notes and all this stuff.
Marc:So he was your coach.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it was a really cool, you know, creative experience to do that.
Marc:So he would help you make choices?
Guest:Absolutely, yeah.
Guest:I think probably the best...
Guest:encapsulation of that would be when i was uh we first got the script for the sixth sense you know and it's a scary movie and all this stuff and we were talking about it he's like you know this movie isn't so much about you know being a horror movie as much as it is it's the people trying to communicate with each other and how frightening it is when you can't get across to somebody else right it's like oh yeah that's you know thinking about it in that sense made it a little bit deeper than things popping out and scaring you
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he was always sort of there to do that.
Marc:Like, like crack the character with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Up through high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because they're, you know, number one, there's really strict laws about your parents always have to be on set with you and everything.
Guest:And I was very lucky to have someone who actually had studied acting and, you know, could be, you know, helpful in that way.
Marc:Do you feel like he was living his dream through you a bit?
Guest:No, I think he, you know, he certainly was happy to, you know, have this happen for his kids.
Guest:And he had, you know, he has his own career.
Guest:He ran that theater in... Yeah, but he's not a movie star.
Guest:I mean, there's pluses and minuses with being in the movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I, you know, I went and studied theater in college, you know, and was doing, you know, a play in Philadelphia as recently as 2011 when, you know, my wonderful management and agent were like, can you please come back to Los Angeles and audition out here and do that stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, let's talk about that.
Marc:So, I mean, so did your father, was he always supportive or did he warn you of the possible pitfalls of hanging your hope in life on show business?
Guest:Well, that was definitely the thing from the beginning, especially when I was a little kid, was if you don't like doing this, you can quit tomorrow.
Guest:And even with those credits and everything, one thing that's funny to remember now is that those movies you do like six to eight weeks and then I was in regular school the whole time.
Guest:Right, then you had a life.
Guest:So my primary memories of this is regular, you know, elementary school, regular elementary school and regular high school and all of that.
Guest:But, yeah, both my parents, I think, especially when the Sixth Sense sort of changed everything, were concerned about, you know, me being able to have privacy, being able to, you know, maintain that kind of, you know, keeping my feet on the ground.
Guest:And going to college, that always being the end goal was something that I think really solidified that.
Marc:So you, through all this, you were in your mind saving for college in a way.
Guest:That was the first thing I ever spent any money on.
Marc:Yeah, you know.
Guest:But you put a lot of money away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's the law here.
Guest:It's the Coogan Law.
Guest:So your money all goes into a trust fund until you turn 18.
Guest:The Coogan Law.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Jackie Coogan.
Marc:Jackie Coogan, yeah.
Marc:Oh, so your parents can't touch it?
Marc:Nobody.
Marc:So that's to protect you.
Marc:It is.
Marc:From your parents, basically.
Marc:If necessary, yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:That's too much.
Marc:And what did your mom do?
Guest:She was and still is a sixth grade teacher.
Marc:Here in town?
Marc:Here in town, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, in Montrose.
Marc:I think that's it.
Marc:That's not too far from here, right?
Marc:No, not too far.
Marc:We're 20 minutes away.
Marc:That's about the last year that it's probably a fun thing to do, to be a teacher.
Guest:It gets more and more challenging every year, just because now with smartphones and stuff, there's a lot more... Holding attention.
Guest:Well, you know, if...
Guest:that's really, I think she is described as like, it's kind of the last age where you can really, you know, connect with the kid before things get kind of solidified in middle school and high school.
Guest:And yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really, really tough job.
Guest:And they, you know, there's, you know, they don't always have class size regulations and things like that.
Guest:So she can have a, you know, up to,
Guest:40 42 kids in the class at one time oh my god which is chaos at that age that's crazy but she still chooses to do it she loves it yeah she taught in alabama she taught kindergarten and first grade briefly at one point but sixth grade is usually the the age she goes for all right so the big movies were for you were the um were the six cents pay it forward in ai yeah
Marc:Those were the big ones.
Marc:Those were probably, yeah, probably the most widely seen, yeah.
Marc:And you played different variations of a sort of slightly disturbing child.
Guest:In different ways.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:One wasn't a child at all, I guess, by some measure.
Guest:What, AI?
Guest:Yeah, AI was, that was pretty different, but...
Guest:Maybe disturbing, but.
Marc:No, I mean, I don't mean disturbing, just emotionally sort of painfully aware and troubled, but intense, I think is the word.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Intense.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we're just naturally like that.
Guest:I mean, it really comes from the material because this, you know, when The Sixth Sense came about, I was also doing like, you know, a half hour network comedy at the time.
Guest:And you get a script like that and it's like, oh, you know, it's a lot to think about.
Guest:And particularly, I remember the first time reading the script for AI, which is a very, very, very powerful script.
Guest:And I was 12 when I first read that.
Guest:And that was really a script I remember.
Guest:Where you're like, oh, I got to think about things in that context, though.
Guest:Because it's an epic that sort of encapsulates the entire end of humanity and everything.
Guest:Which is a lot to think about.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:Generally.
Marc:On any day, that's a lot to think about.
Marc:Especially now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're 12 when you first see that?
Guest:Yeah, when I first heard that.
Marc:So when you sit down with your father, what was the conversation around that?
Marc:That one, we...
Guest:I don't remember talking so much about the overall, you know, philosophy of that movie or whatever.
Guest:What we worked a lot with on that one was that there's a big specificity to every movement that he makes.
Guest:And there's that great first scene when he comes in and he's close on the shoes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that whole first act of the movie which is you know so expertly done by steven is all about those little specific things as he sort of grows into this sense of humanity and yeah i just remember you know going at home practicing the toe taps and the movement of the head and everything and the not blinking which became a you know sort of a thing that we kept going for the whole movie so oh really no blinking he never blinks until he closes his eyes at the end yeah
Guest:how did you fucking do that i guess a take is a take like you know how long is it practice but it was you know really it's like yeah takes in movies aren't that long right so right you're not you know the initial thought is like how did you keep your eyes and hiding it from when you turn away from the camera or something like that a whole bunch of stuff but actually i was just doing um a music video for john wayne where i'm lip-syncing underwater and i was like oh
Guest:I remember this because in AI we were underwater and not blinking.
Guest:And in this music video, I have to kind of do that.
Marc:That was an eerie shot.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Now, Spielberg, working with Spielberg, when you're entering into that, it must be sort of like, oh, my God.
Marc:What was the audition process for AI?
Guest:We just met for that one.
Guest:So he had you in mind?
Guest:Yeah, I believe so.
Guest:So we just met and talked about it in very vague terms because we didn't get the completed script for a while because there's a lot of secrecy around that one.
Marc:That was originally a Kubrick script, right?
Guest:Or no, that was Minority Report.
Guest:Was it AI?
Marc:It was AI.
Guest:Kubrick was involved.
Guest:He and Spielberg had known each other for a while, and Kubrick came to him and said, I think this is closer to your sensibility.
Guest:Let's make this a, I believe this is the quote, a Stanley Kubrick production of a Steven Spielberg film.
Guest:So Steven was always going to be the director for it.
Guest:And then Stanley died.
Guest:Right before we got started.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And an additional, you know, a bit of tragedy with that is that according to Christiane Kubrick, I've heard her say that he was sort of getting fed up as being thought of as this recluse and this kind of eccentric guy and was planning on maybe doing a little bit of press, maybe coming to America, maybe started starting a new chapter in his relationship with the rest of the world, which I think is a sad thing to have missed out on if that was the case.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or not.
Marc:I mean, maybe we all want to keep him sort of.
Guest:In that mysterious.
Guest:Did you see the exhibit they had two summers ago?
Marc:Yes, I did.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:At LACMA.
Guest:That was incredible.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And then have you seen that weird documentary about The Shining of all the people?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What is it called?
Marc:Room 137?
Marc:Room 237.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Really enjoyed that.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a great essay in...
Guest:uh harper's i think it's jay roach i apologize i get the author wrong where he's talking about reviewing that film and some like traumatic memories from his childhood and he says the shining is becomes this movie that is just this expanding black hole that absorbs all context until everything is just referencing this one you know i'm doing the quote but i kind of like i love thinking about the movie in that way that it's so large that you know and it's so uh expertly done in you know informal terms that it can just absorb anything you want to put into it even oh i see what you're saying right yeah yeah yeah yeah
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's so precise in a way.
Marc:And so, but leaving enough... That movie really fucked with my head.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, a couple of them are just nuts, but one of them was sort of like, man, it is kind of weird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How intentional was that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And there's the thing is that when you...
Guest:When you're so good at choosing the people to collaborate with and you're so good with those technical things that even accidents sort of start to be.
Guest:Because the first time you see a flash of the two little girls in blue and the blood coming out of the elevator, the music that's playing, I didn't think about this until very recently.
Guest:The music that's playing is the Penderecki piece, The Awakening of Jacob, which is a story in the Bible where he has the dream where he sees the angels moving up and down the ladder.
Guest:And it's God's promise of good things on earth.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And I was like, oh.
Guest:Two girls.
Guest:Maybe those are the two angels.
Guest:Instead of a ladder to heaven, Kubrick's is an elevator of blood coming up from hell.
Guest:Which is just like, but I don't know if that's the intention.
Guest:And he had a music supervisor.
Guest:I don't know if he chose that piece of music.
Marc:Yeah, that's the interesting thing about those coincidences is that, you know, was Kubrick, someone said, I think, in that movie that he was operating on so many levels of genius.
Marc:You know, that like he was playing chess on three different levels.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that he had that kind of brain.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But still, it seemed like an awful lot to manage.
Marc:And maybe it was just serendipitous that he was so in sync with his people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who were making decisions.
Marc:But like around that Calumet flower, the sugar, whatever it was.
Marc:Oh, the Indian?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or just that the hotel doesn't make any physical sense.
Guest:Have you ever seen the, well, they talk about in the documentary where nothing fit.
Guest:The gold room doesn't fit.
Guest:Everything is changing all the time.
Guest:Extras in the first scene when people are checking out of the hotel are walking into, you know, blank walls and things.
Guest:It's just absolutely insane.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He had a map of the hedge maze because they really built it.
Guest:And they said that the crew would get it and then Stanley would come in on the weekend and change it.
Guest:So people would walk in and get lost and they'd just hear his booming laugh from Overway in the maze.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:someone who got that enjoyment of yeah i'm just sort of fascinated with the idea you know with set deck in general and how things work out i guess if everyone's operating uh at the best of their ability and they're all gifted people yeah you know you're going to get something amazing how'd you know that about that song um i am a big fan of radiohead and johnny greenwood who does some classical compositions i don't know if you strictly call it classical he does a lot of stuff
Guest:He was a big fan of Christoph Penderecki.
Guest:Who is Christoph Penderecki?
Guest:He was an avant-garde, I believe he's maybe still alive, an avant-garde Polish composer.
Guest:He does very dissonant, I don't know music theory, but it's very specific.
Guest:It's related to Ligeti and all those other composers, 20th century composers that he did.
Marc:So he's one of those guys that's sort of not a noise guy, but a trippy guy.
Guest:It can sound really, you know, distant and everything.
Guest:You know, like the moon bus in 2001, that really eerie choral thing that's going on.
Guest:But yeah, yeah.
Guest:So you dig that music.
Guest:I really do.
Marc:But you also know that Bible story.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:At the time I was reading the, I think it's in this one, Harold Bloom's The Shadow of a Great Rock, where he's going through the Bible and the Torah and just talking about it in an aesthetic context.
Marc:Just in an aesthetic.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Now he's taking out any sort of religious literature presumed authors of there's like the J writer and this trying to trace the sort of clues into who wrote various who may have written various portions of the Torah and the Bible.
Guest:And then comparing that to like the King James book and the choices that people made in translation.
Guest:What'd you learn?
Guest:A lot.
Guest:I haven't finished that one yet, but talking about the committee of men that put together the King James Bible was just a fascinating group of people who just had to make these decisions.
Guest:And one thing that sticks out is he calls, Harold Bloom, he says that there's the terse coiled energies of Hebrew that had to be translated into English rhythms and everything.
Guest:So yeah, it's a great book.
Marc:He's a good writer, that guy.
Marc:He's a literary critic.
Marc:yes yeah so i i've not read much of him i've read a little i i've done i've slowed down on my reading in general it's hard these days right i just when i wake up and i spend 20 minutes on twitter and i'm like oh man what the hell happened i just got started with that a couple months ago i got the attention span of a child yeah but uh what what kind of religion were you brought up with we um uh our whole family going back is is irish catholic
Guest:are you 100 irish uh a little bit of german and a little bit of english i believe did you were you practicing catholics uh yeah the family was yeah yeah and uh so you went to the whole church business here in la uh catholic church in la yes yeah my parents are married in birmingham but yeah yeah yeah but i mean but yeah but i mean so you went to church as a kid we did yeah made time for that we did
Marc:Along with school and shooting movies.
Guest:It was, yeah, busy schedule.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do they still go?
Guest:Yeah, they do.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We all go at Christmas and stuff.
Marc:Oh, yeah, at Christmas.
Marc:Oh, the big day.
Marc:Eastern.
Marc:Yeah, the big ones.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're brought up with the Catholic faith, which is a very ornate and- It is, yeah.
Marc:Lyrical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:is that the word i want sure elaborate elaborate there's a lot of pageantry yes that's right do you uh you still practice kind of me not so much no but let it drift it's uh yeah it's a nice it's kind of it's like having that cultural identification sure yeah i know as a jew we have that as well yeah
Marc:So getting back to Steven Spielberg.
Marc:So as a director, how do you handle you?
Guest:He's he's extraordinary.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And and someone who to this day will send a note on birthdays and graduation.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Someone who's, you know, a digital Rolodex must run into the hundreds of thousands.
Guest:He really keeps up with with people and is just really cool that way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But how did he direct you?
Marc:It seemed like you were putting a lot of work into your physicality and you were making decisions with him around the not blinking and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I just remember one of the great luxuries of working on a movie like that is that we went to his home, me and Jude and Francis O'Connor,
Guest:and were able to rehearse for days with him.
Guest:And I remember him having me and Jude walk around his pool in the Hamptons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because Jude had done extensive kabuki and ballet.
Guest:Really?
Guest:All months of dancing lessons for his, because he played a male prostitute robot.
Guest:And so they were trying to find a good thing, because my character walks in a certain way, and Jude walks in a certain way, and we had their electronic teddy bear.
Guest:We all wanted us having a kind of almost Wizard of Audion kind of thing.
Guest:Wizard of Ozian.
Guest:Did somebody bring that up?
Guest:No, that just came to me now.
Marc:Oh, Wizard of Ozian.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wonder if he was thinking that.
Marc:No one brought that up on set, huh?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It's kind of funny, though.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:It's a long time ago.
Marc:I don't want to take credit for it.
Marc:No, but like, because, you know, Spielberg is his own genius.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How did that sort of show itself when you were working with him?
Marc:What was the moment where you were like, oh, God, this guy's...
Guest:We were working simultaneously on, I believe, four sound stages and had a significant portion of the Warner lot sealed off for us.
Guest:And on the call sheet, just hundreds of crew members.
Guest:And he was able to walk from set to set doing work here, a little bit of work here, a little bit of work with me, a little bit of groundbreaking work with CGI, with ILM, and to do it with a very even-keeled, calm manner.
Guest:It was crazy to watch.
Guest:And also would be someone who Al Gore would call.
Guest:This was during the election in 2000.
Guest:You know, Mr. Spielberg, the vice president's on the phone sort of thing.
Guest:Tell him to wait.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:And he also, you know, he just works with a lot of the same crew and the same ADs and wonderful producers.
Guest:And Kathleen Kennedy produced that one.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, yeah, it's just a really great thing to be a part of.
Guest:So, Night Shyamalan, what do you think happened to that guy?
Guest:Oh, he's been very successful.
Guest:I just saw him recently.
Guest:This is a question you've been asked before.
Guest:No, I really enjoyed his movies, and particularly Unbreakable, I think, is really appreciated.
Guest:I love Unbreakable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that was before yours, wasn't it?
Marc:No, that was after.
Marc:Oh, it was right after.
Guest:Yeah, it was sort of a very dark superhero movie years before that became a big thing.
Guest:Yeah, he was five years ahead of that stuff.
Marc:And that was Bruce Willis, too.
Guest:That was Bruce Willis as well, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How do you like working with Bruce?
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Yeah, he was great.
Guest:Is he a pretty, what, solid dude?
Guest:He was, yeah.
Guest:A lot of fun.
Guest:Does he send you a birthday card?
Guest:He did.
Guest:We got some... We went to Japan together for the press tour.
Guest:And yeah, just a really, really cool guy.
Marc:Now, when did...
Marc:Okay, so working with Spacey, too, that must have been sort of an education somehow.
Marc:That was really cool, yeah.
Marc:Because he seems to be a very disciplined kind of interesting actor.
Guest:Yeah, very, very poised.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of screen presence with that guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's really amazing.
Guest:And, yeah, I see him from time to time, too.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:He and the family really got along really well.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Helen, too.
Marc:Now, when did your parents stop going to sets with you?
Marc:What movie was that?
Guest:I was, cause when I did secondhand lions, um, with Michael Caine and Robert Duvall, that was, uh, when I was 14, we shot that.
Guest:And then I went into high school really intensively.
Marc:Oh, those two guys are heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was, that was amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we just had like 56 days at this one like ranch in Texas, just the three of us most of the time.
Guest:And, uh, yeah, that was, that was really special.
Guest:Did you get any wisdom from those two guys?
Guest:Yeah, both of them.
Guest:And Kane's stories were about acting, but also, I mean, he fought in the Korean War.
Guest:He's telling stories about meeting up at some midway point before he went to Korea with the British Army and meeting American GIs on the way to Vietnam.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Where are you going, Korea?
Guest:Where's that?
Guest:Where are you going, Vietnam?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And seeing, I remember, if I'm remembering correctly, he was talking about seeing human wave attacks from unarmed Chinese soldiers and stuff.
Guest:So a crazy, crazy life.
Guest:And with Duvall, I don't think I've ever met someone who is so protective of the other actors and protective of the process in that we had a scene where he's in a nightgown in a freezing lake.
Guest:We're shooting it late at night.
Guest:We shot his stuff first so he could be dry and get out of the lake.
Guest:And they turned around on me and they brought him his coat.
Guest:He goes, no!
Guest:oh, no, I'm going out there and did his off-camera stuff.
Guest:75 years old, standing in freezing water just for my off-camera stuff.
Guest:And that's commitment.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Respect.
Guest:And you just see a tradition of that, of someone who has been protecting the actor's process for decades.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I love that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then after that, you say you just walked into school for a while?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Applying to college is crazy.
Guest:So with, you know, a lot of like APs and, you know, the sort of extracurricular stuff at school that you need to build your college resume, basically sophomore, junior and senior year of high school, I was just there the whole time.
Guest:And then by then I was 18.
Guest:And since then, it's just been just been me on the road.
Guest:Yeah, but the plan was to go to college.
Guest:Always, yeah.
Guest:And to study acting.
Guest:Well, that I actually wasn't sure of.
Guest:I applied to a variety of schools, and it took until the college trip on the East Coast and just going to NYU and going to the building where I didn't really go to school for five years.
Guest:I just had this feeling there of, oh, this is where I want to be.
Guest:You went to NYU?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's a, and, and the visit there, there was a lot of really beautiful campuses, visited a lot of schools, but NYU's building was like, oh, there's work happening here.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the guy giving the presentation was about to go run off and, you know, run some production or something.
Guest:It was, it was nice.
Guest:What was the program you were in over there?
Guest:Uh, the Experimental Theater Wing.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:Which is, uh, uh, uh, generally speaking comes from the, uh, the theater work of, uh, Jerzy Grotowski, who's another great Polish artist.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:So yeah.
Marc:And what, what, what, what, what does that work and require?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What was nice is that at Tisch there's several studios, a lot of studios, and one is the Stella Adler studio, one is the Meisner studio, there was a Strasburg studio, all under those philosophies.
Guest:All within NYU?
Guest:Yeah, and the musical theater and all sorts of stuff.
Guest:And at ETW, there was, I think, the greatest available variety for stuff.
Guest:So we did like Afro-Hatian dance and Anne Bogart's stuff and Mary Overly's Viewpoints.
Guest:I don't know what any of that is.
Guest:It's a lot of like Mary Overly is this great minimalist theater artist and she'd created these six sort of stems with which you could evaluate and describe and choreograph minimalist physical work, you know, among other things.
Guest:And that fed into self scripting where we would just.
Guest:Have like a four hour class in the afternoon and you either start with a movement or a situation or just a power unbalance between two actors or something and find this nugget of an idea and then, you know, quickly spin it out into something else.
Marc:So this is like antithetical to to Hollywood.
Marc:yes yeah and that's why i they you know they place you and i mean this is barely uh usable in no but it really it it no no i just mean like you know when that this is an esoteric theater like art you know like experimental theater is is obviously it exists and it should exist and it's great sometimes but when it's not it's it's horrendous that's the risk yeah
Marc:So what were these other things?
Marc:So that was the Bogart technique.
Marc:What were the other things you mentioned?
Guest:Well, with Grotowski, who was probably the biggest influence, a lot of our professors had studied with him in France in the 60s and 70s.
Guest:And his...
Guest:His stuff is difficult to put into words sometimes, but one thing would be like plastique.
Guest:So you'd have these very specific repetitive physical movements that are done in an exercise.
Guest:And then, you know, there's, you know, emotionality comes into it and you can, you might have a scene that you're working on with a partner, but it sort of can detour off into these physical movements and everything.
Guest:And we're doing a lot of contact improv.
Guest:We had people who'd been involved with the, uh,
Guest:the judson church uh dance community which is some really uh forward-thinking uh uh choreography and stuff so yeah just a really really fun environment to be around but like what was what did you think you were going to uh sort of pursue out of that i uh what it's funny to remember now is that i just knew that going to college would be important and to study with people my own age which i hadn't had the opportunity to do a lot when i was doing as an actor
Guest:Yeah, as an actor.
Guest:And I was going to see how it was.
Guest:And I, you know, I wasn't sure if I would be staying.
Guest:And one of the one of the great things about NYU is that they were very accommodating to allowing me to go off and do work.
Guest:You know, I did an independent film in 2008, although as soon as I did that and this play on Broadway, I had so many credits to make up.
Guest:I was like, I'm just going to stay and finish everything.
Guest:What'd you do on Broadway?
Guest:American Buffalo, the man that played.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I've seen that before.
Guest:I've seen that done.
Guest:Duvall, I think, was in the original production.
Marc:Was he?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, he played Teach.
Marc:He did, yeah.
Marc:So, that makes sense.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who was, was that Pacino?
Marc:I believe so, in the original performance.
Marc:He might have been the L.A.,
Marc:I saw Pacino do it in Boston.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, nice.
Marc:But it was a revival already.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wonder who originated.
Marc:So how long did you run with that?
Guest:We only ran like a month, I think.
Guest:Didn't catch on?
Guest:We did not get good reviews.
Guest:It needed to be a little bit tighter.
Guest:You played the junkie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And who played Teach?
Marc:John Leguizamo.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who played the other guy?
Marc:Cedric the Entertainer.
Marc:So that's a clown show there.
Marc:Cedric's great.
Marc:He is.
Marc:John's okay, but I just mean there's a lot of ways you can play that.
Guest:It is, and the main thing is that it needs to at least be tight, and we had a really short rehearsal schedule.
Guest:After we got bad reviews, we started knocking 10 minutes off the running time and started to actually pick up and everything, but it just needed to be a little bit tighter when it came out.
Marc:So, okay, so now when you go out into the world and you're doing this stuff, are people like, that is a kid from The Thing?
Marc:Sometimes, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's the, you know, it's the double-edged sword of being in a film like that is that you become so strongly identified with it.
Guest:But I also am, you know, am lucky enough to wear...
Guest:It was so long ago that you get older, and now you were just talking earlier about playing the heavy, the bad guy.
Marc:Right, but it's weird.
Marc:It's not quite like Macaulay Culkin, but your face and the idea, there's something about making an impact as a child actor that people just can't seem to forget.
Marc:It takes a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I imagine that people look at you and they're just sort of like, oh, he's in there, that kid's in there still, I see him in there.
Marc:Perhaps.
Marc:But was that challenging for you to, like on an ego level?
Marc:I mean, obviously it seems to me that going to NYU kind of buffered the transition.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But was there like sort of, did you feel it?
Marc:Did you feel like...
Marc:Like, did work slow down at all or did you?
Guest:I mean, I didn't appear in a lot of things between 07 and like 2012.
Guest:There's like a four or five year period.
Guest:But that was it was nice because it was, you know, I was very busy in those years on that stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's, you know, I just I didn't have any really concrete expectations of.
Guest:you know, what the career would be like.
Guest:Just I wanted to be in a position to continue to make different work.
Guest:And I always wanted to make work of my own, which we had the opportunity to do at ETW and develop stuff that I want to work with now.
Guest:I wrote and directed a play for my final project in my final year, which is an idea that I maybe, you know, turn into something else hopefully soon.
Guest:um but yeah just you know and normally like i always talk about it not yet because i'm i'm hopefully going to be coming out with it uh soon when uh when we're through entourage and all that stuff to do a movie uh a series actually oh yeah because when i was in college i was still you know writing something that would be thinking of a screenplay or a movie and now this is just such a a fertile time for series and you know having watched all these shows now thinking of ideas as
Marc:something that can unfold over a number of years you know is kind of sure you got to wait a year for the next season right yeah some things yeah i know i i didn't know that uh mad men still had some closure to do yeah i was like didn't that end yeah oh yeah because they do the half season like yeah i was like the last one was like how long ago is that i know okay so you're gonna do that
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that was born out of your experimental theater years.
Guest:And with ETW, we would just come up with these, like, you just have strong character or an idea or something kind of loose and sort of work outwards from the middle and find out where that character has a home.
Guest:And that, to me, in the writing process has really suited, you know, a series idea for things that where you may not know what the end point is yet, but you're starting off.
Marc:And you built this character for this series out of improvisations and experimental theater?
Marc:Yes, they began with, you know, some of them did, yeah.
Marc:And like, have you directed before?
Marc:I mean, have you done any directing, film directing or anything?
Guest:No, would love to do that.
Guest:But just that one, just that one thing in college is the only thing I've directed, but would love to do it again.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So in a way, you're kind of like, this is a whole new start to your career.
Marc:You're still like a young guy.
Marc:yeah how old are you 27 it's crazy man yeah i mean you feel i feel like you've been in movies for you know decades it's crazy it's nuts now you're married or no not married no i got a girlfriend right now but uh not married now and how's it like didn't you get in some trouble a little while ago
Marc:About 10 years ago, yeah.
Marc:Does that still hang on you?
Guest:No, people have been good about it, you know, and it was a terrible mistake, you know, wrapped my car around something.
Guest:But, yeah, it was like 10 years ago, and it shouldn't take a lesson like that.
Guest:Of course it should.
Guest:Lesson learned, yeah.
Marc:Were you in a situation where you were out of control?
Guest:No, it was just high school recklessness.
Marc:Oh, it's high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's just, you know, this is LA and, you know, you're driving from place to place and shouldn't have been driving, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what, and what do you do like on a, what are your day to day sort of shit that you do now that you are, you're just doing promo for a movie now.
Guest:yeah what's your life look like i'm right uh yeah writing out here it's it's harder for me and it's so stupid but like i you know i prefer to live in new york i still have a place out there you do yeah and i just fell in love with that city and weirdly a lot of the people i grew up with that i was friends with in high school are also on the east coast now so it's odd coming back and working in la and it's like oh you spend most of your time in new york when i can yeah i was there for about seven years completely you know almost you just bought an apartment over there yeah yeah you still got it
Guest:that's nice yeah yeah so i love working there but this uh this season been writing in this early part of 2015 been writing in la we just did the second uh season to the spoils of babylon which was on ifc yeah we're channel brothers yeah um and uh yeah that's with uh will ferrell and kristen wigg and michael k williams and my rudolph and everybody wrote on it
Guest:No, it's Andrew Steele and Matt Piedmont wrote it.
Guest:Yes, Andrew Steele from SNL, right?
Guest:Yeah, they both were on SNL, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you host SNL?
Marc:No, I have not.
Marc:Oh, God damn it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I always thought that you would have done it when you were a kid.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I'm kind of glad I didn't do this again.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:You think it would have fucked you up?
Guest:No, it's just like, that's a big, that's a huge honor.
Guest:I'd love to do it with a, you know, just as a, with the brain of an adult.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You seem to be appearing in movies that I don't know.
Marc:What happened to Sex Ed?
Guest:That had a release and I believe should be streaming pretty soon.
Guest:Yeah, we had a great cast.
Guest:We had Matt Walsh and Retta and Lorenzo Izzo.
Guest:Very funny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And what's the other movie?
Marc:What did you shoot in Asheville?
Guest:In Charlotte, which is not quite as interesting in Asheville, doing Tusk last year.
Guest:What is Tusk?
Guest:It's the Kevin Smith movie with... Oh, that's right.
Marc:Yeah, about the podcast.
Marc:There's a podcast right now.
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Marc:It is a podcast-y one.
Marc:And how was that?
Marc:How was it working with Kevin?
Guest:He's great.
Guest:We all got along so well that the whole cast came back for a second movie that we just finished in the fall, Yoga Hosers, which is Johnny's back for that, and Justin and Genesis and everybody.
Guest:What is that about?
Guest:I play a Canadian Nazi in one part of the story, a real character named Adrian Arcand...
Guest:Yeah, this nasty guy in Quebec in the 30s was a Hitler admirer.
Guest:And then this is based on fact.
Guest:Yeah, my character is based on a it's a heightened version of a real horrible guy that was right, actually lived in Canada.
Guest:And then the rest of the movie is can't give too much away.
Guest:But it's kind of a spinoff of Tusk and that there are two characters who appear very briefly in Tusk.
Guest:And then this movie is sort of what's happening to them while the Tusk storyline is happening.
Marc:And, like, are your folks still around?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just saw my dad today.
Guest:My mom's still teaching just over there.
Guest:Yeah, we talked about that, but your dad's still... What's he doing for work?
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:He and I work on houses.
Guest:He worked in construction.
Guest:He built the Santa Monica... He was a foreman on the Santa Monica Pier Arcade and the Japanese American Museum.
Marc:Was this after the theater?
Guest:This was in the 90s, yeah, after the Equity Wars and the theater shut down.
Guest:So, yeah, he's...
Guest:So you work on houses?
Guest:He remodels houses, yeah.
Guest:What, does he flip them?
Marc:He's a great designer.
Guest:Not flip them, but does remodeling work and stuff like that.
Guest:And you do that with him?
Guest:No, we invest in things together.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:So people who hire him to do their house, they don't come home and say, isn't that Howie Joel Osment?
Guest:No, he's not doing construction, but he does the design and stuff like that.
Marc:For remodels and whatnot?
Guest:Yeah, for stuff like that.
Guest:He's always been really good with that stuff.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what do you do for a hobby, buddy?
Guest:I am a big sports fan.
Guest:I've been seeing almost every Dodger home game this year, which has been fun.
Guest:And then I'm also geeking out on your guitars because I play music just to entertain myself as well.
Marc:You keep busy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you do any athletics yourself?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love mountain biking around here.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Play a little golf, play a little tennis.
Guest:Golf?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Explain that to me.
Guest:Well, that naturally goes with the business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I mean, have you been playing a long time?
Guest:Yeah, since I was a kid.
Guest:Yeah, because you go on location in Texas or something like that.
Guest:It's a fun thing to do on the weekend.
Marc:Yeah, but no one's ever taken me golfing.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, I'll go with you.
Marc:Do you love it?
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I really love it.
Marc:What's the appeal?
Marc:Explain to me, because people have such an amazingly deep relationship with golf.
Guest:It's hard to explain because it's very frustrating, but that's also the thing that...
Guest:There's like a Zen quality to it where it is.
Marc:I keep hearing that.
Guest:It's a good way to just because the movement is so complex and the only way to accomplish it is to not think about it while you're doing it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And just developing the feel for something as weird as that sport.
Guest:And then whenever you succeed, whenever you get it where you're supposed to go, it's an amazing feeling.
Guest:And it's nice being outside.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's nice being outside.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's quiet.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're just walking or slowly driving.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:From hole to hole.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's the whole sort of.
Guest:I just, my friend I worked on Alpha House with, she just told me she went to Versailles.
Guest:And did you know that at Versailles you can drive golf carts around drinking rosé?
Guest:Alpha House, what's that?
Guest:It's a show with John Goodman that we did two seasons of on Amazon.
Marc:Oh, okay, that's right.
Guest:Yeah, but I just, the golf cart made me think about it because I never pictured Versailles as a place where people are driving little cars around.
Marc:Well, I mean, you know, you got to see the ground somehow.
Marc:It's huge, yeah.
Marc:Have you spent time in Europe?
Marc:Yes, I have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I did not do our summer program with ETW, but I did visit our studio there when a lot of my friends were training there over the summer in Amsterdam.
Guest:That's where our summer program is.
Guest:For NYU?
Guest:Yeah, for ETW.
Marc:What does that stand for again?
Marc:Experimental Theater Wing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this is a crew that you work with.
Marc:Have any of the people you went to college with, are they sort of like doing amazing things in experimental theater?
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:One of my friends was hired immediately by Cirque du Soleil, and I've seen him in Vegas a couple times.
Guest:And then also, my friend Sarah Sutherland is on Veep right now playing Julia Louis-Dreyfus' daughter.
Guest:I saw her.
Guest:Yeah, she's fantastic.
Marc:She was at school with you?
Guest:Yeah, she was in my class.
Guest:My small group of 12 people for all four years.
Guest:And then Alex Anfanger, who was two years ahead of me, his show Big Time on Hollywood, Florida is on Comedy Central now.
Guest:So it's crazy because everybody's coming out here and you're seeing them pop up.
Marc:Those don't sound very experimental to me.
Guest:Yeah, but they have a series.
Guest:He and Dan Shimp have this thing that I did an episode of called Next Time on Lonnie that I think is a very specific sort of comedy that comes out of the kind of stuff that they did.
Guest:they have been influenced in some way I can't speak to their process but they have a really distinct voice and I think that our program may have contributed to that so in terms of the Entourage movie were you on the TV series as well no I wasn't so it was just a casting yeah just audition yeah
Marc:Isn't Constance Zimmer, is she in that?
Marc:Yes, she is.
Marc:She's fantastic.
Marc:She did an episode of my show this year.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Guest:She's great.
Guest:We were just in D.C.
Guest:with the Creative Coalition a couple weeks ago.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:We were lobbying members of Congress for NEA funding for the arts and for education.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really, really cool experience.
Marc:Who else went out there for that?
Guest:Uh, Tim Daly was there and, uh, Gabourey Sidibe and my sister and like about a dozen people came and, and we broke into small groups and went and met with, uh, Boehner's staff and McConnell's staff.
Guest:And, uh, then some more people who were friendlier to our, our cause, uh, Senator, um, uh, Congressman Dan Kildee from Michigan, um, was there and I was paired up with- Did you meet Boehner?
Guest:No, he was not there.
Guest:He sent a staff member.
Guest:But they were all very nice, and I was actually surprised at how productive those meetings were, even with Republican staffs and members.
Marc:How do you know if it's productive?
Marc:Because they say they're going to do something?
Guest:They generally succeed in protecting the NEA budget from being cut.
Guest:We would like more, but there was a plan this year that was suggested that could potentially get one Republican and one Democratic member to vote.
Guest:support and to write some op-eds for to instead of getting a yearly budget on that propose a larger amount of money to be played out over five years so it was really cool and tim daly's a really smart guy and uh um was fun to watch him run those meetings and it's his he put the coalition together no i think it was originally put together by alec baldwin susan sarandon and christopher reeve in the late 80s during the initial uh so this is something that happens every year
Guest:Every year.
Guest:It's in the lead up to the White House press correspondence dinner or weekend.
Guest:That's when everybody's coming to Washington to lobby members of Congress for various reasons.
Guest:So they like to come in with a big group and make an impression.
Marc:And you were there.
Marc:I was there, yeah.
Marc:And Constance was there.
Marc:She was, yeah.
Marc:And how did they reach out to you?
Marc:Is it just...
Guest:I'm not sure.
Guest:I think they reached out to my publicist.
Guest:My publicist reached out to them because I'm a big nerd about Washington stuff.
Marc:You are?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a studio teacher really early on during the Clinton Dole campaign in 96 who had me studying the presidents and the electoral process and everything.
Guest:It's always been something I've been interested in.
Guest:Are you fascinated with politics?
Guest:Yes, depressed often with it, but fascinated with it.
Marc:Big fan of the democratic system, the idea of its functioning?
Guest:Yes, and not so much the electoral college and the district drawing that we have all over the country.
Guest:There's some tricky shit going on.
Guest:And Citizens United has been a real sour development in our process, too.
Guest:I don't know, it's tough.
Guest:I just watched that...
Marc:the roosevelts that ken burns thing watched all 12 hours of that and it's pretty fascinating it is yeah yeah he was amazing they all were amazing eleanor and teddy too yeah and they were uh but they come from the upper crust yeah it's interesting that there were presidents you know george the bushes too like the second bush with like these complete privileged people and but you know the roosevelts at least uh seem to their legacy seems to be noble
Guest:Yeah, and that Franklin's disability made this change in him where he genuinely wanted to engage with people suffering.
Guest:I think it's in Warm Springs, Georgia, where he'd have the polio center with kids that were disabled and everything.
Guest:Yeah, that kind of mixture of that guilty conscience from coming so high up in the cage or whatever.
Marc:Right, and also just there was a time where people's affection and respect...
Marc:of that leader yeah of the president yeah was profound yeah and i i don't think that's happened for a while it's yeah we kind of like lack of you know we have all these terrifying problems with climate change in the middle east and and the economy and everything and there doesn't seem to be like a national purpose but it just seems like everything's become so fragmented that like you know the president talks and you know who watches
Marc:You know, like there was a time where the president was talking, the country stopped.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I just think that respect for the office in general has diminished just because it's like, when was that on?
Marc:When did he talk?
Marc:And that they can snipe at him on Twitter immediately.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like everybody's just lowered to the lowest common denominator in a way.
Marc:No one's above it.
Guest:yeah above the the fray it's yeah it's just an ugly yeah i heard you talk about this in a podcast recently where when it comes to like twitter or something if you respond to negative things you're a jerk and if you ignore negative things you're aloof and terrible and even politicians are subject to that same impossible scenario it's just like you shouldn't you shouldn't engage them yeah but it's hard not to
Marc:yeah now now you just mute them just make them disappear that's the magic of twitter like they can be saying that but i don't have to see it yeah i just like enforced denial like i can magically just uh you know manifest my denial by not looking at that person's garbage yeah all right well it's good talking to you man really nice talking to you too man thanks for having me
Marc:Haley Joel Osment.
Marc:Nice chat.
Marc:Jerry Stahl, OG dad, is the book.
Marc:Haley Joel's movie is Entourage.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:I will be presenting a page full of new posters soon.
Marc:Can you hear that hum?
Marc:That's a fucking... Listen to that filth.
Marc:That's dirty, dirty fuzz box.
Marc:Some Earthquaker box.
Guest:Boomer lives!