Episode 60 - Bob Odenkirk

Episode 60 • Released March 31, 2010 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:07Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:08Guest:Really?

00:00:08Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:09Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:10Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:12Guest:Pow!

00:00:12Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:14Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?

00:00:16Guest:What's wrong with me?

00:00:17Guest:It's time for WTF!

00:00:19Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:20Guest:With Mark Maron.

00:00:24Marc:Okay, let's do this.

00:00:25Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:26Marc:What the fuckineers?

00:00:28Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:29Marc:Those seem to be the three that I have been locking in on.

00:00:31Marc:Welcome to the show.

00:00:32Marc:It is April Fool's Day.

00:00:34Marc:It is my brother's birthday.

00:00:35Marc:Happy birthday, Craig Maron.

00:00:37Marc:You are, how old are you, man?

00:00:40Marc:God, are you 45?

00:00:41Marc:I think you're 45.

00:00:43Marc:Well, happy birthday.

00:00:44Marc:Hold on.

00:00:46Guest:Jesus.

00:00:47Marc:Nobody?

00:00:48Marc:God bless you?

00:00:49Marc:Gesundheit?

00:00:49Marc:Nothing?

00:00:50Marc:Sorry, I got a little cold or I'm fighting something.

00:00:52Marc:I'm fighting the good fight against the bacteria and viruses in my body at this point in time.

00:00:56Marc:Can you hear the struggle?

00:00:58Marc:Do you hear the protest?

00:01:00Marc:Let's get this out of the way early on because I shouldn't really be drinking it, but...

00:01:05Marc:Pow!

00:01:06Marc:Oh, man, I just shit my pants again.

00:01:09Marc:JustCoffee.coop.

00:01:11Marc:You can get that at WTFPod.com.

00:01:13Marc:Good stuff.

00:01:14Marc:You know it is.

00:01:15Marc:Go for it.

00:01:16Marc:Where are we at today?

00:01:17Marc:Great guest today from Mr. Show, from the Ben Stiller Show, from his writing on Saturday Night Live, from movies he's directed.

00:01:25Marc:like uh the brother solomon let's go to prison bob odenkirk will be in the garage today i'm looking forward to to talking to him because he's a guy that i've known a long time that i have not spent a lot of time talking to like many of the people on this show uh i've always respected bob he's a difficult man to talk to so i'm a little apprehensive and a little excited to uh to get into it with mr odenkirk see what we can uh learn and find out i know a lot of you people are fans of him

00:01:53Marc:I don't know everything he's done.

00:01:54Marc:I know some of you are sitting there after I read those credits, either going, what about, what about, what about?

00:01:59Marc:I don't know.

00:01:59Marc:I'm not a comedy nerd.

00:02:00Marc:I'm just a comedian with some friends I have.

00:02:03Marc:And some of you are saying, who's Bob Odenkirk?

00:02:04Marc:Well, you'll learn.

00:02:06Marc:But I want to talk to Bob about some stuff, about working, about dreams.

00:02:12Marc:about work ethic you know there's a lot of people out there that think they're going to make it they're going to make it as an artist they're going to make it in show business they're going to make it once they get that thing done as soon as i do that thing as soon as i write that book as soon as i write that screenplay as soon as i shoot that movie as soon as i get up on stage and sing that song i'm gonna do it it's all gonna turn around as soon as

00:02:35Marc:You know, sometimes we keep this stuff in our heads.

00:02:37Marc:We don't manifest it at all because we like to hold on to the fantasy, because if it's a fantasy, we are buttressed against failure.

00:02:44Marc:But also we are buttressed against success.

00:02:48Marc:And I tell you, you know, that one shot thing, I'd like to talk to Bob about that, about Hollywood.

00:02:53Marc:And perhaps I will.

00:02:54Marc:The whole idea that like, hey, I'm going to write this one thing.

00:02:56Marc:I'm going to go to Hollywood.

00:02:57Marc:I'm going to and I'm going to they're going to open up the gates and

00:03:01Marc:The great success in show business that I that I'm entitled to, I think, is a myth.

00:03:08Marc:And I think it's guys like Bob, you know, because I mean, Bob works.

00:03:12Marc:You look at his IMDb page and it's like, you know, two or two days long.

00:03:16Marc:I mean, I could say that in pages, but, you know, why not make it days?

00:03:20Marc:I can fucking do whatever I want.

00:03:23Marc:I mean, it's not like I don't work.

00:03:24Marc:I mean, look, I got I got a couple of residual checks just today or yesterday.

00:03:28Marc:It was yesterday.

00:03:30Marc:I got a residual check for forty five dollars.

00:03:33Marc:And this is many years later.

00:03:34Marc:This is about what I get.

00:03:35Marc:Occasionally I get anywhere from eighteen dollars to forty five dollars for like five different showings on either regular TV or whatever.

00:03:42Marc:But that's not nothing.

00:03:43Marc:That's a nice dinner.

00:03:44Marc:maybe a movie.

00:03:45Marc:And then I got, but can you imagine the checks Bob gets?

00:03:48Marc:I'm not jealous, but just from all the SNL and everything else and the movies, whatever.

00:03:52Marc:I'm not, I'm not envious, but here's another check.

00:03:55Marc:This is a dirty little secret.

00:03:56Marc:I got a check for $3 and 38 cents.

00:04:00Marc:You want to know why I got that check?

00:04:02Marc:I'll tell you why.

00:04:03Marc:That check is for the Mighty Ducks 2.

00:04:06Marc:That's right, folks.

00:04:07Marc:The Mighty Ducks 2, which I got cut out of.

00:04:12Marc:I was to play, as you know, in Mighty, in Almost Famous, I played the Angry Promoter.

00:04:17Marc:What you don't know is in the Mighty Ducks 2, I played the Angry Valet.

00:04:23Marc:This must be 1980.

00:04:26Marc:I don't even know what year it was.

00:04:29Marc:Wow.

00:04:30Marc:I have no idea.

00:04:31Marc:Here's what happened.

00:04:33Marc:My buddy Steve directed and wrote that one, I think.

00:04:36Marc:Yeah, Steve Brill.

00:04:37Marc:We wrote together in college and performed together.

00:04:43Marc:He's gone on to do other things, but that's neither here nor there.

00:04:45Marc:So he gives me a little part in the movie.

00:04:47Marc:I'm playing a valet, which is what happens is the Mighty Ducks are wandering through Beverly Hills, are wandering down Rodeo Drive, and they keep getting turned away at stores, the Ducks.

00:04:59Marc:And I play this valet who's out in front of a business parking cars.

00:05:02Marc:And I'm sitting in my trailer.

00:05:04Marc:I got my valet jacket on.

00:05:06Marc:I'm sweating.

00:05:06Marc:I used to have a real perspiration problem.

00:05:09Marc:Thank God that's gone.

00:05:10Marc:Jesus, I don't even know what the hell caused that.

00:05:12Marc:It was so embarrassing to me, that whole perspiration problem.

00:05:16Marc:I used to have pit stains in seventh grade.

00:05:19Marc:Horrendous.

00:05:20Marc:And I could never get rid of them.

00:05:22Marc:And I used to try all these different deodorants.

00:05:24Marc:I was thinking about getting surgery.

00:05:25Marc:It was just so embarrassing.

00:05:27Marc:And it lasted throughout most of my life.

00:05:29Marc:And now it just doesn't happen anymore.

00:05:31Marc:I guess getting older is better.

00:05:33Marc:I don't sweat in my armpits as much.

00:05:35Marc:Whatever.

00:05:36Marc:So I'm sitting there getting pit stains in the trailer, wearing my valet outfit, trying to get prepared for these two fucking lines that I have.

00:05:42Marc:And then there's my scene.

00:05:43Marc:And it's not a big scene.

00:05:44Marc:It's literally like, you know, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, you know, but they got to roll cars through and the ducks have to approach me.

00:05:51Marc:And basically...

00:05:53Marc:The deal is the ducks come up to me and one of them says, you know, how do you get into these stores?

00:05:58Marc:How come we can't get in?

00:05:59Marc:I don't remember.

00:05:59Marc:And my line is like, you have to know someone to get in anywhere in this town.

00:06:03Marc:You know, like bitter showbiz valet guy.

00:06:07Marc:So they do the scene and I do the line and I screwed up and I actually stopped the scene once.

00:06:12Marc:And this is where they got to get a bunch of extras moving and they got to get cars rolling.

00:06:15Marc:And I stopped the scene twice.

00:06:17Marc:And Steve's like, you know, listen, you can't.

00:06:19Marc:You know, I say cut.

00:06:20Marc:It's costing a lot of money per scene.

00:06:23Marc:So then I do it again, and I go, you've got to know somebody to get in anywhere in this town.

00:06:28Marc:And I lunge you a little when I'm in their face.

00:06:33Marc:And Steve's like, could you try it one more time?

00:06:36Marc:Just tone it down a little bit.

00:06:37Marc:So then they come up like, how do we get into any of the stores?

00:06:39Marc:I'm like, you've got to know somebody to get in anywhere.

00:06:41Marc:You've got to know somebody to get into any place in this town.

00:06:45Marc:And then he cuts again.

00:06:46Marc:He comes up to me and goes, listen, Mark, you've got to tone it down.

00:06:50Marc:You're scaring the ducks.

00:06:54Marc:scaring the ducks.

00:06:58Marc:And that's why I ended up on the cutting room floor because I scared the ducks, the mighty ducks at that.

00:07:06Marc:I do know one thing that I seem to be obsessed with work related things.

00:07:10Marc:And let me get specific here.

00:07:12Marc:I don't know why, but I can sit down with a Uline catalog for a half an hour and be completely compelled and

00:07:21Marc:u line u l i n e i'm not even plugging for them because it's office supplies for fuck's sake but what is it about this catalog that i can be completely engaged in i it happens with catalogs i don't know if anyone else's is like this or this is something that you can relate to i get the ll bean catalog now some catalogs i don't even bother with uh you know like uh

00:07:42Marc:J.Crew, nothing.

00:07:44Marc:Anthropology, maybe a quick flip.

00:07:47Marc:I get flower catalogs for some reason because I think I sent my mother flowers once.

00:07:50Marc:I don't do those.

00:07:52Marc:But L.L.

00:07:52Marc:Bean comes and I'll have them around for a while.

00:07:55Marc:And I've actually bought stuff from L.L.

00:07:57Marc:Bean.

00:07:58Marc:Am I an L.L.

00:07:59Marc:Bean guy?

00:07:59Marc:No.

00:08:01Marc:Is that clothing necessarily very good?

00:08:03Marc:No.

00:08:04Marc:But I'll sit and look at that stuff and I'll try to bend it into cool in my brain.

00:08:08Marc:And there is nothing more cool proof than L.L.

00:08:11Marc:Bean merchandise.

00:08:13Marc:But there's something about, I don't know, the authenticity of it, the basicness of it, the guys fishing.

00:08:19Marc:I don't fish.

00:08:21Marc:What am I aspiring to?

00:08:22Marc:But I bought jackets thinking like I can make that cool.

00:08:24Marc:And then they get here and I can't make it cool no matter what.

00:08:27Marc:It's not even a matter I'm that hung up with cool, but it's more about I can own this.

00:08:31Marc:You know, maybe this clothing is boring enough that if I put it on, it'll become uniquely mine.

00:08:36Marc:But actually, L.L.

00:08:37Marc:Bean has the power within its product to make you boring.

00:08:42Marc:Cool proof L.L.

00:08:44Marc:Bean is.

00:08:45Marc:I have bought some sheets, some flannel sheets from there and some towels just because it's easy.

00:08:49Marc:I've got to do some of that stuff.

00:08:50Marc:Stuff is starting to break down.

00:08:52Marc:I don't know...

00:08:53Marc:Maybe when I was married, I forgot about a lot of this stuff.

00:08:56Marc:I'm starting to realize that, you know, left to my own devices, I'll be living in a large nest of sorts.

00:09:02Marc:I got to replace the towels.

00:09:04Marc:You got to do so.

00:09:04Marc:Let's get back to the Uline catalog.

00:09:06Marc:What is it about this?

00:09:08Marc:I mean, God damn it, I can look at this thing for hours.

00:09:11Marc:Let's just flip to any page.

00:09:13Marc:All right.

00:09:15Marc:custom printed tags.

00:09:17Marc:Even this is great.

00:09:19Marc:I can get a, an inspection tag.

00:09:22Marc:I can get a red tag that says rejected.

00:09:24Marc:And it's got the job number, the part number.

00:09:26Marc:I would just put my name in all those job number, Mark Maron, part number, Mark Maron, serial number, my birthday, part name,

00:09:34Marc:Comedian.

00:09:35Marc:Number of pieces rejected.

00:09:37Marc:All of them.

00:09:37Marc:Reason, not for everybody.

00:09:40Marc:See, why can't I get some of those?

00:09:42Marc:Oh, look at this.

00:09:42Marc:Machinery tags.

00:09:43Marc:Do not operate.

00:09:45Marc:And then it's got it in Spanish.

00:09:47Marc:That should be a t-shirt.

00:09:49Marc:All right, let's flip to another page.

00:09:50Marc:Now we know why I like that page.

00:09:52Marc:how about this recycling containers look at these big beautiful blue recycling containers some with two holes on top for separating things why do i even find that compelling what is it in this fucking catalog that i like looking at it's new big stuff i don't have this much recycling but i'd sort of like to have the one with the hole on top it maybe it'd make my life feel more efficient i don't know hold on another page um

00:10:17Marc:Flat merchandise bags.

00:10:18Marc:Boring.

00:10:19Marc:But nonetheless, they have some nice colors.

00:10:23Marc:Oh, here we go.

00:10:24Marc:How about this?

00:10:25Marc:Lab coats.

00:10:27Marc:Lab coats?

00:10:28Marc:I could use a lab coat.

00:10:30Marc:Why not?

00:10:31Marc:Polypropylene clothing.

00:10:32Marc:Cotton lab coat.

00:10:33Marc:I should be doing this in a lab coat.

00:10:35Marc:And right under it.

00:10:35Marc:Hard hats.

00:10:36Marc:Are you kidding me?

00:10:37Marc:They have red hard hats, blue hard hats, lime green hard hats, pink hard hats.

00:10:41Marc:I don't know if that's a big seller.

00:10:43Marc:Maybe.

00:10:44Marc:Maybe as a costume item.

00:10:45Marc:I don't know.

00:10:46Marc:A pink hard hat.

00:10:47Marc:Safety apparel.

00:10:48Marc:They have crossing guard vests.

00:10:50Marc:That might just be a practical investment for the future.

00:10:52Marc:What else is in here?

00:10:53Marc:Earplugs.

00:10:55Marc:Respirators.

00:10:56Marc:Okay.

00:10:57Marc:Warehouse gloves.

00:10:58Marc:Look at all these gloves.

00:11:00Marc:Ironclad gloves.

00:11:02Marc:I could be doing this show wearing a lab coat, ironclad gloves, and a pink hard hat.

00:11:09Marc:That would be ridiculous and hilarious.

00:11:13Marc:Coated gloves.

00:11:15Marc:Oh, safety knives.

00:11:16Marc:Look at this.

00:11:17Marc:Conveyors, expandable and portable.

00:11:19Marc:These are those rolling things that you roll things down like boxes with the rollers on them.

00:11:24Marc:And this is one that you can have at home, I guess, if you want to roll things through the house right out the back into your new recycling bin.

00:11:31Marc:See, I'm getting the feeling that a lot of this stuff may not be for the home.

00:11:35Marc:Obviously, maybe I have workplace envy.

00:11:38Marc:Maybe secretly I have a fantasy to where I'm just a guy working in a place that has a conveyor belt.

00:11:45Marc:And oh, they have the the big plastic work platforms.

00:11:50Marc:These are like aluminum steps up to a thing.

00:11:56Marc:Oh, I could get one of these to have the steps up to... Just to have the steps.

00:12:05Marc:Just to have them.

00:12:06Marc:Like an art piece just out there on my deck to nowhere.

00:12:09Marc:Steps to nowhere.

00:12:10Marc:And maybe people go, hey, dude, what's with the steps?

00:12:14Marc:And I could say...

00:12:15Marc:That's an unanswered question.

00:12:17Marc:There are things that we don't know.

00:12:18Marc:And sometimes I'll just walk up those steps and take a moment and acknowledge that there's so much, so much we don't know.

00:12:26Marc:That's what that means.

00:12:27Marc:It's art.

00:12:28Marc:And I wouldn't even have to put any effort into it.

00:12:30Marc:Bin organizers.

00:12:31Marc:Man, if I had a lot of screws and nails, that would be perfect.

00:12:33Marc:Maybe I should buy screws and nails and have those in there.

00:12:36Marc:Oh, hot cups.

00:12:38Marc:Oh, this is the office container.

00:12:39Marc:You know, I literally... Look at this.

00:12:42Marc:A janitorial bucket.

00:12:43Marc:Like the big yellow bucket with the mop squeezer.

00:12:46Marc:Caution wet floor signs.

00:12:50Marc:Gojo foaming push dispenser.

00:12:52Marc:For the foamy foam soap.

00:12:55Marc:Fuck that.

00:12:56Marc:I don't even like that stuff.

00:12:58Marc:That just ruined my high.

00:12:59Marc:That just ruined my fucking high.

00:13:02Marc:The foamy dispenser.

00:13:03Marc:Because it reminds me, since I've been traveling a lot, is the airport's

00:13:08Marc:Airports with those sinks that have sensors in them, never get it right.

00:13:12Marc:It literally becomes a farce.

00:13:14Marc:I get the foam on my hands, which I don't like because it's like, was this, did someone already lather this in their hands and put it in the container?

00:13:20Marc:Obviously, that's not the point, but I'm a grown man.

00:13:22Marc:I can do my own lathering of my hands.

00:13:24Marc:You have to pre-lather the fucking soap.

00:13:27Marc:What the fuck?

00:13:29Marc:And then those sensors, they never work.

00:13:30Marc:So I'm going back and forth and back and forth.

00:13:32Marc:And it's like a goddamn Charlie Chaplin movie.

00:13:34Marc:And the guy next to me, no problem.

00:13:36Marc:He gets it.

00:13:37Marc:He gets the sink sensor.

00:13:39Marc:And then I got to deal with the fucking hand dryer.

00:13:42Marc:Hold on.

00:13:42Marc:I'm spiraling.

00:13:44Marc:I'm spiraling.

00:13:45Marc:Hold on.

00:13:46Marc:Automatic towel dispenser.

00:13:49Marc:See, that's what should be in the bathrooms.

00:13:51Marc:You know how I feel about hand dryers.

00:13:52Marc:I'm going to buy a stepladder to nowhere, a recycling bin with holes on the top just because I like it, a conveyor belt to move myself perhaps through my house on rollers.

00:14:03Marc:I'm going to get a lab coat, a pink hard hat, and some big heavy-duty iron work gloves, and an automatic towel dispenser.

00:14:14Marc:to bring with me on the road for when I go to the bathroom in airports.

00:14:20Marc:Wait, I got it.

00:14:23Marc:How clear does it have to be, man?

00:14:25Marc:This is like, it's almost like a Bible, the Uline catalog.

00:14:30Marc:I mean, it is the fantasy or the hope

00:14:33Marc:of being organized, of finally having everything in its place, of everything in its proper place, everything making sense, everything under control.

00:14:44Marc:That's what it is.

00:14:46Marc:If I had everything in here, I would have everything under control or I would have to manage an awful lot of shit I didn't need.

00:14:54Marc:But that is what it is.

00:14:55Marc:That is the hope.

00:14:56Marc:It is the hope of ultimate organization.

00:15:01Marc:I could just be sitting out here in my pink hard hat and my lab coat with my iron-studded work gloves after just having rolled through my house on a conveyor and as I rolled into the garage, thrown a couple of plastic bottles or cardboard boxes into the holes of my new recycle bin, almost like a three-point shot, and come out here to the garage knowing that everything is

00:15:30Marc:is organized and under control.

00:15:35Marc:Uline, just the catalog, gives me hope for order.

00:15:50Marc:Get on the mic, buddy.

00:15:52Marc:Beautiful.

00:15:52Marc:Now I'm on.

00:15:53Marc:Now you're there.

00:15:55Marc:Bob Odenkirk is in the garage here at the Cat Ranch.

00:15:57Marc:It took some doing, but he's here.

00:16:02Guest:Well, you know, it's like one of those things where...

00:16:05Guest:you're busy then there's time yeah let's just do it i'll come right over that's the way to go but today's a great day because uh i have a lot of stuff coming up in the next two weeks and i just sort of finished a draft of a pilot that i wrote yesterday really i just finished it so that's a great feeling and you know that great feeling it lasts for about seven hours after months and then you rethink it and then you feel terrible yeah and then it actually lasted like an hour

00:16:33Marc:I think really the first time we ever really met was at the Aspen Comedy Festival, probably 1995, when you were doing what became Mr. Show.

00:16:44Guest:Is that possible?

00:16:45Guest:Yes, yes, yes.

00:16:46Marc:That would have been...

00:16:48Guest:Right around 1995, yeah.

00:16:49Marc:Yeah, and I remember at the time we were there, and it was you and Dave and John Ennis and somebody else.

00:16:56Marc:There was four of you, right?

00:16:57Guest:Probably Mary Lynn was probably part of that.

00:16:59Marc:Jay, maybe.

00:17:00Marc:Right.

00:17:00Marc:Well, I just remember that the performing situation was maybe the first or second.

00:17:04Guest:We were in a bar.

00:17:04Guest:We were in a country and western bar.

00:17:06Guest:Right, in a pit.

00:17:07Marc:It was like, but literally a pit.

00:17:09Marc:Was it like a dance floor?

00:17:10Marc:Yeah.

00:17:11Marc:Because I remember when I met you, you were like, oh, Christ.

00:17:14Marc:I mean, how are we going to...

00:17:15Guest:Yeah, it was so hard.

00:17:16Guest:And then we just set up chairs on the dance floor, and we made a little... There was like a door for a stage, so you walked through the door to be on stage.

00:17:23Guest:Right.

00:17:24Guest:And we probably had a screen up, because we had video.

00:17:27Guest:Right.

00:17:28Guest:And it was very much like Mr. Show, rough.

00:17:30Guest:But the same kind of thing, where you come out and say hi, and then we go into a scene, it goes into a video, goes into us live, go back into a video, and...

00:17:41Guest:The front row, because it was the first year of the Aspen Comedy Festival.

00:17:46Marc:It was the first year, right.

00:17:47Marc:So if people don't understand, when you do these festivals, when they start, they do shows wherever they can in the town.

00:17:55Guest:Well, I think that's got it.

00:17:57Guest:The whole phenomenon of the Aspen Comedy Festival, we can now just lay it on the line.

00:18:03Guest:Go ahead.

00:18:03Guest:Because the thing is over, finally.

00:18:05Ha, ha, ha.

00:18:05Guest:What a ridiculous... It was insane.

00:18:09Guest:It was a party for HBO.

00:18:10Guest:Okay, so look, look.

00:18:12Guest:HBO, you know, who are so invested in their own persona.

00:18:17Guest:They're invested in their stature as a hip place.

00:18:22Sure.

00:18:22Guest:More than anything.

00:18:23Guest:That matters more than quality.

00:18:25Guest:Absolutely more than quality is being hip to them.

00:18:30Guest:And yet they pursue quality too.

00:18:32Guest:I'm not saying they don't.

00:18:33Guest:I'm just saying that happens.

00:18:36Guest:But they're way more invested in being cutting edge hip or considered that.

00:18:41Guest:I don't think they are.

00:18:42Guest:Right.

00:18:45Guest:So they decide to do a comedy festival.

00:18:48Guest:There's a comedy festival already in Montreal, a big world-class, worldwide comedy festival.

00:18:53Guest:I think a great one.

00:18:55Marc:Great for stand-up, certainly.

00:18:56Guest:And that runs for the right reasons.

00:18:59Guest:They absolutely want to showcase...

00:19:01Guest:top stand-ups top people cutting-edge people to an audience of human beings who are curious and it's a big event and they actually actually have a a week of just french come there's two weeks yeah one week is all french yeah which we didn't go to and we should bring that up too but go ahead it's an amazing yes it is it's and the people that attend those shows are people from all over the world

00:19:24Guest:All over the world, but they're human beings.

00:19:26Marc:Yes, they're excited human beings.

00:19:28Guest:And in the back of the room are the people from showbiz.

00:19:31Guest:The suits.

00:19:32Guest:The suits, the lawyers, the agents and stuff.

00:19:35Guest:So they're just in the back of the room.

00:19:37Guest:The rest of the room is filled with real comedy fans and interesting people who are interested in seeing something interesting.

00:19:43Marc:Having a good time.

00:19:44Guest:Yes.

00:19:45Guest:So HBO goes, we don't want to go to Montreal.

00:19:49Guest:So let's have our own HBO comedy festival in Aspen.

00:19:54Guest:Yeah.

00:19:55Guest:Where most of us have homes.

00:19:56Guest:Where most of us rich motherfuckers have homes.

00:19:59Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:19:59Guest:And they're not...

00:20:01Guest:Nobody cool lives in Aspen.

00:20:04Marc:Not anymore.

00:20:04Guest:The people in Aspen are incredibly rich.

00:20:07Marc:Hunter's dead, so that was it.

00:20:08Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:20:09Guest:That's it.

00:20:09Guest:Incredibly wealthy people live in Aspen.

00:20:13Guest:It is one of the she-she-est cities in this country.

00:20:18Guest:Yeah.

00:20:18Guest:It's a quaint little town where you can buy- It's gross.

00:20:20Marc:It's gross.

00:20:21Marc:Right.

00:20:21Marc:It's a quaint little town where you can buy a Picasso on Main Street.

00:20:25Guest:Yeah.

00:20:25Guest:It is-

00:20:26Guest:to walk around that little small town.

00:20:29Guest:It's gross.

00:20:30Guest:Everyone in Aspen, you're gross.

00:20:32Guest:Okay.

00:20:32Guest:Okay, your wealth is gross.

00:20:36Guest:And so there we are, and we're doing this comedy festival.

00:20:40Guest:Broke comics, just starting out.

00:20:41Guest:For a bunch of really wealthy surgeons, dentists, lawyers.

00:20:47Marc:Leaders of industry.

00:20:48Guest:Leaders of industry who have no interest in a comedy festival or certainly anything cutting edge.

00:20:54Guest:Yeah.

00:20:54Guest:We are just an annoyance.

00:20:56Guest:It was so annoying to them that this festival was held in their town.

00:21:00Guest:So they don't even want to go to the shows.

00:21:01Guest:They don't want it to be there.

00:21:03Guest:But some of them tried it out for the first couple of years, some of the townies.

00:21:07Guest:So in the front row of Mr. Show, the first show...

00:21:11Guest:Four silver-haired, wealthy dudes wearing identical red sweater vests.

00:21:19Marc:They were there for some event or something.

00:21:21Guest:Yeah, you know, they were ex-astronauts.

00:21:23Marc:Yeah, once a year they go to ask them to count their money.

00:21:26Guest:And they're hating it.

00:21:27Guest:They're just hating it.

00:21:28Guest:Right in front, right standing, sitting right, you know, four feet in front of me.

00:21:35Guest:And that festival then went on and not much good came of it except that, you know, you got a free trip to Aspen, which was fun.

00:21:43Marc:And didn't you sign with Brillstein after that, though?

00:21:45Guest:No, we were with Bernie.

00:21:46Guest:I was with Bernie already.

00:21:47Marc:They were years before us.

00:21:49Marc:That was one of the exciting events for me, that festival, is I went into the men's room, and when I walked in, Bernie was peeing, but he peed with his pants all the way down.

00:21:58Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:21:59Marc:Did you know that?

00:22:00Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:22:01Guest:Yeah, he went for it.

00:22:03Guest:He didn't mess around.

00:22:05Marc:Now, were you with him all the way up till when he... Passed away, yeah.

00:22:09Guest:Yeah, I was with Bernie from... Actually, I was with Ray Rio at Brillstein Gray when I was a writer at Saturday Night Live.

00:22:17Guest:And I had some... You know, Ray and I... Ray's a great guy, but I wanted to work with someone else.

00:22:23Guest:And Bernie stepped in.

00:22:24Guest:He said, well, I'll work with you.

00:22:26Marc:So how long did you write at SNL?

00:22:27Marc:Before we get to SNL, though, I got this thing stuck in my head.

00:22:31Marc:About you.

00:22:32Marc:And it's a weird thing.

00:22:34Marc:Many years ago, I worked with him because he started in Chicago, right?

00:22:38Guest:Yeah.

00:22:38Marc:As a stand-up.

00:22:40Guest:I did do stand-up.

00:22:41Guest:Right.

00:22:41Guest:I kind of started by writing sketch comedy.

00:22:43Marc:All right.

00:22:43Marc:Well, there's this guy I work with, some road guy.

00:22:45Marc:It must have been, I mean, it's over 10 years ago.

00:22:47Marc:I was working with him in Indianapolis.

00:22:49Guest:He was middling for me.

00:22:50Guest:Yeah.

00:22:50Marc:Kind of a shabby guy, very deadpan, didn't have much personality.

00:22:54Marc:But he said he started in Chicago and he started talking about you.

00:22:57Marc:And he goes, yeah, I remember Bob when I was starting out.

00:23:00Marc:I remember him.

00:23:01Marc:You know, he was the kind of guy that would he'd say, I got to go home and do some writing.

00:23:06Marc:I mean, what the fuck?

00:23:07Marc:And then this guy says to me, he says, can you hang out a minute?

00:23:11Marc:I want to go get my beer drinking shirt.

00:23:13Marc:Oh.

00:23:13Marc:And he went and got his beer drinking shirt.

00:23:15Guest:Why do you need a special shirt for drinking beer?

00:23:17Guest:Did you vomit?

00:23:18Guest:I don't know.

00:23:19Guest:Did you spill beer on it?

00:23:20Marc:But it was just this moment where I saw the difference between your process and somebody said, I'm just going to do comedy.

00:23:27Marc:Yeah.

00:23:28Marc:Like, there's something about your career and the way you've handled it.

00:23:31Marc:Like, I'm a guy that didn't do what you did, and I don't know that I would have thought to.

00:23:35Marc:I was just a stand-up.

00:23:36Marc:But there are people that, from the beginning, saw some sort of trajectory.

00:23:40Marc:They knew that writing... Did you see it?

00:23:42Guest:Don't give me too much credit, because I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:23:46Marc:Okay.

00:23:46Guest:And when you talk like that about me, I think about my friends Ben Stiller and Judd Apatow.

00:23:52Marc:Who...

00:23:53Marc:They're your use that like you're you to me.

00:23:58Guest:If you're saying somehow you look at me and go, wow, I wished I'd sort of seen the road clearer.

00:24:04Guest:Yeah.

00:24:05Guest:No, listen, Mark.

00:24:06Guest:All right.

00:24:06Guest:Okay.

00:24:07Guest:I look at those guys and think that.

00:24:09Guest:And I think it's legitimate.

00:24:10Guest:Now, you're right.

00:24:12Guest:I had a vision for what I wanted to do.

00:24:14Guest:I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

00:24:16Guest:It doesn't marry up very closely with the industry of show business.

00:24:22Guest:I think that I wish that I had some of the insight that Ben and Judd had.

00:24:27Guest:Now, if you read about Judd or you know his past, his mother worked at a comedy club or ran one.

00:24:33Guest:I don't know.

00:24:34Guest:So he was, from when he was a teenager or younger...

00:24:37Guest:He was meeting comics.

00:24:39Guest:Now, see, I went to Second City with a friend's family when I was about 12 or 13.

00:24:45Guest:To see the show.

00:24:47Guest:So that was the first time I ever saw people who worked in comedy.

00:24:51Guest:But my family, my mother is very religious.

00:24:54Guest:She's probably gone to theaters to see a movie three times in her life.

00:25:00Marc:Really?

00:25:01Marc:Yeah.

00:25:01Marc:She's afraid of movies?

00:25:02Guest:No, show business is not a priority of any kind.

00:25:06Guest:At all.

00:25:07Marc:Entertainment.

00:25:08Guest:Entertainment is not a priority of any kind in our was in our house or projected by my parents.

00:25:15Guest:You know, the kids loved it.

00:25:16Guest:But so the notion for me, it took me years of really doing it in a very pointed way.

00:25:26Guest:Like I'm writing comedy today.

00:25:28Guest:I did that when I was in sixth grade.

00:25:31Marc:You started writing sketches?

00:25:32Guest:Yeah.

00:25:34Guest:Before I went, oh, maybe I could make a living at this.

00:25:37Guest:How do you do that?

00:25:38Guest:Right.

00:25:39Guest:And then you think about Ben...

00:25:41Guest:being on the set of TV shows when he was six and seven years old and sitting at the dinner table and hearing his parents go, we got to develop a show and we should write a movie.

00:25:50Guest:Maybe we should.

00:25:51Guest:And so he is thinking about how this business works and he's hearing how it works and he's understanding it.

00:25:59Guest:You think about Judd going to comedy clubs when he was nine or whatever.

00:26:04Guest:I don't know what age he did that.

00:26:06Guest:I'm curious about...

00:26:07Guest:And so I know what you're saying.

00:26:10Guest:I grew up in a house.

00:26:13Guest:It took me until I was 20-something years old before I went, oh, so movies are made here at Paramount.

00:26:22Guest:But who decides who makes the movie?

00:26:26Guest:I mean, I still feel like I'm...

00:26:28Marc:uh sort of realizing like oh I get it now I get it I gotta talk to that guy you know what I mean yeah I mean well I grew up with uh you know trying to make my manic depressive father laugh so that's exactly so what I have now is a small but committed following of very sensitive sad people that will come to see me if their life depends on it the gig's not over no I know and I'm not complaining that's the odd thing about me and I don't want to make it all about me but I tend to make it a little about me yeah is that uh I can make it about you

00:26:58Marc:I accept my place in the world.

00:27:01Guest:Where it is right now, but dude, the game's not up.

00:27:04Marc:All right.

00:27:05Guest:You know, in the last year.

00:27:06Guest:I feel like I'm going to cry a little.

00:27:07Guest:In the last year and a half.

00:27:08Marc:Yeah.

00:27:10Guest:Because of Breaking Bad, I got this job as an actor on Breaking Bad.

00:27:13Guest:Do you know that show?

00:27:14Marc:I do, and I haven't seen you in it yet.

00:27:16Marc:When were you in it?

00:27:16Guest:Well, I was in the last three episodes of the second season.

00:27:20Guest:Okay, I'm still in the first season.

00:27:21Guest:And I'm in 10 of this season's episodes.

00:27:25Guest:Right.

00:27:25Guest:Okay?

00:27:26Guest:Okay.

00:27:27Guest:So I got a call, do you want to do this part?

00:27:29Guest:And I didn't know the show.

00:27:30Guest:I mean, I knew of it.

00:27:31Guest:I like the show.

00:27:31Guest:I've never seen it.

00:27:33Guest:And I called a friend, Reed Harrison.

00:27:35Guest:Do you know Reed?

00:27:35Guest:No.

00:27:36Guest:And I go, I just called somebody.

00:27:40Guest:I just was going to call somebody.

00:27:41Guest:I called him and I said, do you know the show Breaking Bad?

00:27:44Guest:He goes, oh man, that is my favorite TV show right now.

00:27:47Guest:You've got to do that.

00:27:48Guest:So I said, oh, okay, I'll do it.

00:27:50Guest:So he said, I'd do it.

00:27:52Guest:And then I got the script, and it was extensive.

00:27:57Guest:I mean, it was a character part, and it's a drama.

00:27:59Guest:Right.

00:28:00Guest:It also is very funny.

00:28:01Guest:Yeah.

00:28:01Guest:It really is dark, dark funny.

00:28:02Guest:Yes, definitely, yeah.

00:28:05Guest:But it...

00:28:09Guest:The part was way more extensive than anything I've done.

00:28:13Guest:Usually, even the stuff I write for myself, you don't get monologues that are like a paragraph long.

00:28:19Guest:But in dramas, these are the kinds of characters that people write.

00:28:23Guest:Now, there's also...

00:28:26Guest:it moves along and there's a lot of action and stuff but you know there's there's a lot of character interplay right a show that's an hour long yeah right yeah so i'm reading this thing and i'm like i've never i've never had to do a monologue that was three quarters of a page long yeah certainly a part where maybe in one episode i have three of those yeah

00:28:48Guest:You know?

00:28:48Guest:Yeah.

00:28:48Guest:So I said yes to the part.

00:28:51Guest:I was excited to do it.

00:28:53Guest:But now I got to do it.

00:28:54Guest:Yeah.

00:28:55Guest:So more than anything I've ever done as a performer, I had to focus.

00:29:01Guest:Now, I'm including Mr. Show in that.

00:29:03Guest:I mean, when I did Mr. Show, believe me, I enjoyed doing it and I focused as a performer.

00:29:08Guest:But I was always, always, when I was acting, thinking about...

00:29:14Guest:how this is being shot, where this goes in the show, the scene I'm writing right now, what David is doing, who's going to play this.

00:29:22Guest:What David is doing.

00:29:23Marc:That could go either way.

00:29:24Guest:What the lighting guy is doing.

00:29:26Guest:I mean, I was a pain in the ass on that show, and I was the one going like, that light's... I'll move it.

00:29:31Guest:Give me the ladder.

00:29:33Guest:So I was always doing too many things.

00:29:37Guest:So Breaking Bad made me...

00:29:40Marc:An actor.

00:29:41Guest:Focus on what is this part?

00:29:43Guest:How do I do it?

00:29:44Guest:How can I do it well?

00:29:46Guest:And I think I did pretty good and I'm proud of it.

00:29:49Guest:And it was fun.

00:29:50Guest:It was more fun than any of that other performing I've ever done.

00:29:54Marc:Well, do you think some of that has to do with the fact that when you know you're funny, I mean, that's not- Because I focused.

00:29:59Guest:But also- Because I stopped worrying about a hundred things.

00:30:01Marc:But you're also a funny guy.

00:30:02Marc:And when you've got to do a funny part, I mean, you're going to find the funny.

00:30:05Marc:I imagine that doing something that's more dramatic and you have to commit to the character in a way that doesn't allow you an out to be funny, it's got to be a little more challenging.

00:30:14Guest:Well, it was challenging.

00:30:15Guest:It was absolutely challenging.

00:30:18Guest:But I just think it's...

00:30:21Guest:It was just the first time in my life where I just did the acting and I invested in it.

00:30:26Guest:Yeah.

00:30:26Guest:And I found it really rewarding and great.

00:30:30Guest:I didn't bring my iPhone into the audition, but I'm serious.

00:30:35Guest:I'm totally serious.

00:30:36Guest:Do you know what I mean?

00:30:36Marc:You're going to work as an actor.

00:30:37Guest:I'm not going to sit around and worry about my script that I'm writing while I'm trying to do this reading and trying to get this part.

00:30:44Guest:And I'm going to come in as an actor, think about the part, think about what I can do with it.

00:30:50Guest:I'm going to know it really well.

00:30:53Guest:And I'm going to blow it out.

00:30:55Guest:And when I was doing Breaking Bad, the other thing was I was doing scenes with Bryan Cranston, who's won the Emmy for drama acting two years in a row.

00:31:04Guest:He plays a cop.

00:31:04Guest:No, he plays a high school science teacher.

00:31:07Marc:Oh, no, he's the lead.

00:31:08Marc:Yeah, I love that guy.

00:31:09Marc:I was just watching it last time.

00:31:10Marc:And that guy brings... Oh, he's incredible.

00:31:12Guest:It.

00:31:13Marc:Yeah.

00:31:13Guest:So I needed to focus.

00:31:18Guest:So I'm just saying that...

00:31:22Guest:You know, I've done a lot of acting in my life.

00:31:25Guest:You know, I've got a long resume on IMDb as far as an actor, which is crazy to me.

00:31:30Guest:But I've only just started focusing on trying to do that well.

00:31:33Guest:And I found it to be really rewarding if you focus.

00:31:36Marc:But I think that the fact that you have this intense ability to focus and that you're I think you're very hard on yourself.

00:31:42Marc:Are you not?

00:31:42Guest:I think so.

00:31:43Guest:I'm proud of that.

00:31:44Guest:I mean, I don't understand people who aren't.

00:31:46Guest:Mark, I've never understood.

00:31:48Guest:To me, and I told my little daughter this the other night.

00:31:51Guest:Yeah.

00:31:51Guest:And it's so, you guys, this is like so personal.

00:31:57Guest:But we were talking about some comedy scene that I'd showed her or she'd seen.

00:32:02Guest:Yeah.

00:32:03Guest:And I said, so you see, honey, that's what comedy is.

00:32:08Guest:Comedy is about honesty.

00:32:10Yeah.

00:32:10Guest:Because that, to me, is a very core truth to me.

00:32:14Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:32:15Guest:And, you know, you talk about your dad, your manic-depressive dad.

00:32:18Guest:Well, my father was an alcoholic, right?

00:32:20Guest:Yeah.

00:32:22Guest:So, and my mother, you know, we learned that when I was probably 9 or 10 years.

00:32:30Guest:maybe 11 or so.

00:32:31Guest:And then we started to go to AA and all that stuff.

00:32:35Guest:Um, but honestly, yeah, yeah.

00:32:37Guest:But honestly, for me, comedy has always been a way to be honest about shit.

00:32:43Guest:Yeah.

00:32:43Guest:Like to just fucking say what you're thinking.

00:32:45Guest:And, and I think that applies.

00:32:48Guest:I was watching, who's that very heavyset comic, uh, Southern comic, uh,

00:32:54Guest:I caught a minute of his act.

00:32:56Guest:Oh, Ralphie Mae?

00:32:58Guest:Yeah, Ralphie.

00:32:59Guest:And, you know, I don't... Look, he's a nice guy, and he's making a huge living, and he's very happy.

00:33:05Guest:I met him, and he's a nice guy.

00:33:07Guest:Yeah.

00:33:08Guest:But I mean, on some level, I don't necessarily, I don't agree with a lot of sort of what he's saying intellectually.

00:33:16Marc:I understand.

00:33:16Guest:But on some level, he's being honest.

00:33:19Guest:Yes.

00:33:19Guest:He's expressing things.

00:33:21Guest:Again, I would say I don't agree and I don't think it's necessarily important to express those things.

00:33:26Guest:But for him it is, and for his audience it is, and he's just saying some things that those people go, yes, thank you for saying that.

00:33:36Guest:They may not feel like it's a life truth that they need to carry a banner.

00:33:40Guest:But it makes them feel better.

00:33:41Guest:It's a window.

00:33:41Guest:It's a release.

00:33:42Guest:Yes.

00:33:42Guest:So that's what being hard on yourself is, is being honest.

00:33:45Guest:And I don't understand.

00:33:47Guest:I've never understood...

00:33:49Guest:especially among the alternative comics.

00:33:52Marc:We're going to talk about this after you make your call.

00:33:54Guest:Why people have to be so supportive of each other and so kind?

00:34:03Marc:I thought you were going to say glib and detached.

00:34:05Guest:They should be glib and detached, and they should be hard on each other and themselves.

00:34:10Guest:And, you know, most of us are, but some of us aren't.

00:34:13Guest:You know, I'm sorry, but I've got some friends who've done some really shitty specials.

00:34:19Guest:And I don't say it to them.

00:34:21Guest:But I wish I... Why shouldn't we be saying... We're hard on everyone in the world.

00:34:25Guest:I don't understand.

00:34:26Guest:We rake everyone over the coal.

00:34:27Guest:Right.

00:34:28Guest:All our family and friends, society, hipsters, everyone.

00:34:33Guest:Yeah.

00:34:34Guest:We rake them over the coal.

00:34:35Guest:Why give ourselves a break?

00:34:36Guest:So why is it suddenly when we're... Why we're so kind to ourselves?

00:34:41Guest:I mean, I will admit... Yeah.

00:34:44Guest:That I've made some huge turds in my life.

00:34:47Guest:Like what?

00:34:48Guest:Like what?

00:34:48Guest:Dude, dude, come on.

00:34:49Guest:Don't say it like that.

00:34:50Guest:It's obvious.

00:34:51Guest:Well, I'm trying to figure... Some of the feature films I've made are despised by people.

00:34:57Guest:Which ones?

00:34:57Guest:I didn't see that.

00:34:58Guest:Which ones?

00:34:58Guest:And they are major failings of the talent involved.

00:35:02Guest:Now, I'm sorry.

00:35:02Guest:I don't want to insult all the people who worked on them and worked so honestly.

00:35:07Guest:And so hard.

00:35:08Guest:And also the fans.

00:35:09Guest:The craziest, worst thing you ever did has some diehard fans.

00:35:13Marc:Yeah, most of it.

00:35:14Guest:So my feature films have also made people extremely angry.

00:35:18Guest:I mean, The Onion said everyone should be ashamed of themselves who is associated with Let's Go to Prison.

00:35:24Guest:Now, I don't agree.

00:35:25Guest:I don't agree that everyone should be ashamed of themselves.

00:35:27Guest:Right, okay.

00:35:27Guest:I don't.

00:35:28Guest:Yeah, were you?

00:35:30Guest:I'm slightly ashamed.

00:35:32Guest:How did that happen?

00:35:33Guest:How did that happen?

00:35:34Guest:Well, it was an honest effort, and I think we did a good job on a lot of levels.

00:35:38Guest:But you have to be able to separate out going, look...

00:35:43Guest:The actors were spot on.

00:35:46Guest:The comedy moments were.

00:35:48Guest:Some of the comedy moments were great.

00:35:51Guest:The filmmaking in that movie, I did a great job.

00:35:54Guest:I had a tone.

00:35:55Guest:I had a style.

00:35:56Guest:I knew what I wanted, and I delivered on it, and it's fun.

00:35:59Guest:It's like a B movie.

00:36:00Guest:I said, let's make it like a blaxploitation film.

00:36:03Guest:Let's have fun with the camera.

00:36:05Guest:Let's make it gritty.

00:36:06Guest:Dax Shepard is amazing.

00:36:08Guest:Will Arnett is amazing.

00:36:09Guest:Shia McBride is amazing.

00:36:11Guest:They're all playing in the same place tonally.

00:36:14Guest:They're all in the same area, and it has an edge to it.

00:36:21Guest:And, you know, I just didn't do as much work on it as I should have before.

00:36:27Marc:But did the studio step in and start messing with it?

00:36:29Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:36:30Marc:Because Louis tried a blaxploitation film, too, and they took it away from him.

00:36:33Guest:No, no.

00:36:34Guest:They were supportive of it.

00:36:35Guest:I mean, the only thing I don't like about that is the PR campaign was, I think, just completely wrongheaded.

00:36:40Guest:Okay.

00:36:40Guest:But no one wanted to listen to me at that point, and I was thankful that Universal wanted to release it.

00:36:46Guest:And they said to me, look, when I said my arguments that there was a better campaign to be had and just showing Dax and Will and letting – because I think they were really funny and very likable characters and –

00:37:02Guest:They said, look, we're going to do some crazy stuff with this marketing because this is a low budget movie.

00:37:07Guest:And if it works, it works.

00:37:08Guest:If it doesn't, it doesn't.

00:37:10Guest:They were like, it might not work.

00:37:11Guest:So they had nothing to lose, but you- They were kind of like, we're going to do something crazy.

00:37:16Guest:Right.

00:37:17Guest:And it may not work.

00:37:18Guest:Right.

00:37:19Guest:But that's why we're doing this low budget movie is we're going to try something nuts.

00:37:24Guest:But I think that was a mistake.

00:37:25Guest:Because I want to talk about- But look, I've made some things that were unsatisfying and I can admit it and I can criticize them with anybody as hard as anybody or harder.

00:37:34Guest:The most satisfying thing I've done overall is Mr. Show.

00:37:40Guest:But there are scenes in Mr. Show that are horrible.

00:37:42Right.

00:37:42Marc:A lot of people who listen to this show and a lot of what has become this comedy nerd audience really sees Mr. Show as the starting place of modern comedy.

00:37:50Marc:Like I talk about it on this show that I know there's a lot of people listening whose sense of comedy history starts at Mr. Show.

00:37:57Marc:And beyond that, there's nothing.

00:37:59Marc:I mean, the impact that thing had was incredible.

00:38:02Guest:Well, I think we got to combine a lot of influences there in a way that a lot of people had wanted to for a long time.

00:38:10Guest:And and so that was neat.

00:38:13Guest:And and we also really got creative freedom to in every way, thanks to HBO and thanks to Troy Miller, who is incredibly good with.

00:38:25Guest:And that's a Dakota with filming.

00:38:27Guest:Yes.

00:38:27Guest:With filming and style and doing things for a budget because we didn't have a lot of money.

00:38:32Guest:Right.

00:38:33Right.

00:38:33Guest:But still, everything was open to us.

00:38:36Guest:We could make a film that was black and white and looked old, and we could do a video that looked like a cheap, cheesy 70s video, and we could do all these presentation styles.

00:38:49Marc:So was the agenda just no holds barred, let's push it in every way possible, comedically, filmically?

00:38:56Marc:I don't know.

00:38:57Marc:I mean, you seem pretty disciplined.

00:38:58Guest:We could do anything.

00:39:00Marc:Right.

00:39:00Guest:But that wasn't the impetus for it.

00:39:02Guest:The impetus was, let's do a sketch show.

00:39:05Marc:But the creativity involved.

00:39:07Marc:I mean, it was you and Dave.

00:39:09Marc:And who were the writers?

00:39:10Marc:Poussin?

00:39:11Guest:Who else was there?

00:39:12Guest:Scott Arkerman, B.J.

00:39:13Guest:Porter, Jay Johnston, Paul Tompkins.

00:39:19Guest:Yeah.

00:39:19Marc:So these are adventurous comedic thinkers, though.

00:39:22Marc:Yeah, pretty crazy guys.

00:39:24Marc:No one was going to do anything hackneyed.

00:39:26Guest:David and I really drove it.

00:39:28Marc:Now, when you and Dave started, you guys really gelled on the Ben Stiller show?

00:39:33Guest:No, we only sort of said hello on the Ben Stiller show.

00:39:37Guest:We never wrote together.

00:39:38Guest:And in fact, David tells me that I...

00:39:41Guest:insulted him or his his writing there you did yeah he wrote a piece that i was like why are you writing that i said to him because he because judd and ben asked him to write it and he was thankful to have a job there was tension that's why was there a tension well so it's like one of the first couple times i met david i was rude to him yeah well you're like that with everybody i think aren't you i don't know

00:40:02Guest:I don't perceive it that way.

00:40:04Guest:I'm kidding.

00:40:05Guest:I don't perceive it.

00:40:05Marc:Here's how I characterize you when I mention you.

00:40:08Marc:I said, I've known Bob for years, and he always talks to me like he's my father.

00:40:13Marc:Because I'll see you, and I haven't seen you in months, and you'll be like, so what's happening with you now?

00:40:17Marc:What's going on?

00:40:19Marc:What are you working on?

00:40:22Marc:At this point in the conversation, Bob had to take a conference call.

00:40:26Marc:He said he had to take it.

00:40:27Marc:And I said, of course.

00:40:28Marc:And I waited because I didn't want to cut the interview short.

00:40:31Marc:And he went out onto my deck and paced around talking to an agent or a manager or both on a conference call.

00:40:37Marc:There are a lot of big show business names bandied about.

00:40:40Marc:I don't want to drop any of those names or betray Bob's trust out of respect for him and whatever he's trying to achieve.

00:40:48Marc:But he did come back in.

00:40:50Marc:after about 15 or 20 minutes, and it was a slightly different tone.

00:40:56Marc:So let's go now to 20 minutes later.

00:40:59Marc:Well, I mean, whatever it may mean, Bob, you're on my deck, and my first concern was, is he going to fall through the deck?

00:41:05Marc:I need a new deck.

00:41:06Marc:And I heard names being thrown around.

00:41:09Marc:Big show business names being thrown around on the deck, Bob.

00:41:13Guest:I wrote a little comedy with my friend Eric Hoffman, who's a really funny writer.

00:41:18Guest:And I wrote for Mr. Show also.

00:41:21Guest:And it's really good.

00:41:22Guest:It's the best movie I've ever written, by far.

00:41:25Guest:And it's got a female lead.

00:41:28Guest:And it's kind of been sitting around for a couple months, maybe a year now.

00:41:33Guest:Yeah.

00:41:35Guest:As one or two people, we sort of feel them out.

00:41:39Guest:And we finally found an actress who I think is it.

00:41:42Guest:She's it.

00:41:42Guest:She's the part.

00:41:44Guest:So... You want to say names or no?

00:41:46Guest:You know... It doesn't matter.

00:41:48Guest:I can't say her name.

00:41:48Guest:I get it.

00:41:49Guest:Because she wants it, but, you know, anything could fall apart.

00:41:53Guest:And I just want to get back to her today and say, you're it.

00:41:56Guest:Right.

00:41:56Guest:And then... So now that we know who she is, now we can cast everybody around her.

00:42:01Guest:Right.

00:42:02Guest:Because her part is very big.

00:42:04Guest:But it's a... The movie is... You know, I love Woody Allen's movies.

00:42:09Guest:And it's kind of...

00:42:14Guest:It is an homage a bit to Annie Hall, but with a girl as the main character trying to find somebody.

00:42:21Guest:And, you know, it's different.

00:42:24Guest:It's just I use the tone of Annie Hall and the kind of structure in a way, in a very general way of that movie to write this movie.

00:42:36Guest:And it's called Annie Jenkins is the name of this movie.

00:42:40Marc:Well, that's exciting, man.

00:42:41Guest:Yeah, it's really exciting.

00:42:42Guest:But you know what?

00:42:42Guest:Look, so here's what happens.

00:42:45Guest:We have our lead girl.

00:42:47Guest:She's great.

00:42:48Guest:She's perfect.

00:42:49Guest:Then we cast a bunch of people around her who are great in their roles.

00:42:54Guest:And then we try to get the money.

00:42:57Guest:That may never happen.

00:42:59Guest:And then maybe we get the money and hopefully it doesn't fall through.

00:43:03Guest:And then we need to have a time when we can shoot it because I told you I'm going to do a part in a sitcom.

00:43:11Guest:Now if that goes, I don't get to make my movie.

00:43:15Guest:You know what I mean?

00:43:16Guest:If that becomes a series, how do you make your movie?

00:43:18Marc:These are what they call luxury problems in the racket.

00:43:21Marc:But this is interesting, though, because you, more than most people I've had on this show, have such a thorough experience with the process of writing, of stand-up, and of getting things made.

00:43:32Marc:And I think just the way you explain that, I don't think a lot of people who listen to my show would really realize that these obstacles to having great things and personal things and independent movies made is still a fucking huge process.

00:43:43Guest:Oh, my God.

00:43:44Guest:I mean, it's almost ludicrous to imagine it happening.

00:43:49Marc:Like you write this great script because there are people that don't have the work ethic that you do.

00:43:53Marc:And I think there are people that dream of being a screenwriter or maybe midway through their first screenplay.

00:43:58Marc:And they're trying to get through that.

00:43:59Marc:But as a professional writer, you have a work ethic and you have discipline and you can knock things out.

00:44:05Marc:And I just think that it's interesting that you could write a thing that you're obviously very there's a personal piece of work.

00:44:10Marc:You're proud of it.

00:44:11Guest:Yeah.

00:44:11Marc:And there's a very good chance that it may never see the light of day.

00:44:15Guest:Yeah, absolutely.

00:44:15Guest:Really, really good chance.

00:44:17Guest:Now, here's the thing.

00:44:18Guest:I've written probably 15 screenplays, and they've all been pretty horrible.

00:44:24Guest:I mean, they just did not measure up.

00:44:26Guest:One other one I think is good.

00:44:27Guest:It's an adaptation of a book, The Fuck Up, by a guy I've become friends with, Arthur Nercesian.

00:44:34Guest:And I think that's a good screenplay.

00:44:37Guest:Yeah.

00:44:37Guest:But so you have to understand that for me, just writing a screenplay that I like and I think is good, if that's all it was, you know, screenwriters always say it doesn't matter until it gets made.

00:44:51Guest:It's like you didn't do anything.

00:44:54Guest:I don't agree with that philosophy.

00:44:55Guest:I feel...

00:44:58Guest:Look, obviously I want to make it, but my goal was to write a movie that I was not ashamed of.

00:45:05Guest:That was my goal.

00:45:07Guest:Right.

00:45:07Guest:So when I did that, I was like, thank you.

00:45:11Guest:And I still feel that way.

00:45:12Guest:And I'll always feel that way.

00:45:14Guest:And if nothing happens with it, I'll always, some part of my spirit is healed a little bit.

00:45:22Marc:Because you're proud of the piece of work you did.

00:45:23Guest:And because I feel like, okay, if you can do it once, maybe you can do it twice.

00:45:27Marc:But I just think it's fascinating because just even from where I'm sitting is that so many people don't understand, even people that are sophisticated and intelligent, the nature and the process of show business.

00:45:38Marc:Like there's a lot of people out there hanging their dreams on this idea that they're going to finish a screenplay and somehow or another, that's the magic

00:45:44Guest:ticket yeah well you know one of the reasons is because that fairy tale of how it works which is you go off into a corner and you write and then you write something and it's kind of personal and poetic and kind of interesting and then people can't believe how great it is in hollywood and then they make it and it's unbelievable that fairy tale is sold to you by hollywood which knows it's not true why do they sell it then because it's great to hear yeah

00:46:12Guest:Do you want to hear the truth?

00:46:15Guest:Do you want to hear the truth about how it's a bunch of people and there's no real process and great stuff falls through the cracks and gets ruined and the stuff that, you know, all those great movies that cost $7,000.

00:46:30Guest:And then you find out it really cost $45,000 or it cost $250,000.

00:46:35Guest:500 million.

00:46:37Guest:You know what I mean?

00:46:38Guest:Yeah.

00:46:38Guest:You know, Robert Rodriguez, what's the great movie?

00:46:41Guest:I love it.

00:46:42Marc:I love- Desperado or what's it called?

00:46:45Guest:The first one.

00:46:46Marc:The one with the guitar?

00:46:47Guest:Yeah.

00:46:48Guest:Oh, God damn.

00:46:49Marc:El Mariachi.

00:46:49Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:46:50Marc:El Mariachi.

00:46:50Guest:$17,000.

00:46:51Guest:Right.

00:46:52Guest:Now, I don't really know how much it costs, but I've been told that's not true.

00:46:57Guest:And maybe that's what it costs to shoot it, but that doesn't include all the music and the reshoot and the post-production and all the other stuff.

00:47:09Guest:So that fairy tale of, look at, these guys made this movie for $7,000 and it's great.

00:47:17Guest:Or this person went and wrote a script and they've never written a script before.

00:47:21Guest:I mean, a version of that happens usually once a year.

00:47:26Marc:Right.

00:47:26Guest:Or someone gets discovered.

00:47:28Marc:Because Hollywood has to do it to make it a real thing.

00:47:30Guest:Sidibe or whatever, the girl from Precious.

00:47:33Guest:You know, those things happen.

00:47:34Guest:Or some version of them happens.

00:47:36Guest:But that's a pretty magical story, right?

00:47:38Marc:It's an anomaly, yeah.

00:47:39Guest:Right.

00:47:39Guest:But it is a ridiculous anomaly.

00:47:41Guest:I mean, it is insane.

00:47:43Guest:It is one out of 10 million, right?

00:47:46Guest:Yeah.

00:47:46Guest:But that's the story everyone's... No one's telling the story of...

00:47:50Guest:Number nine million person who struggled for 30 years and nobody cared.

00:47:55Guest:And then suddenly something good got made.

00:47:57Guest:That's not a Hollywood ending.

00:47:59Guest:We don't even tell the story to ourselves.

00:48:01Guest:You see how many times in Variety.

00:48:05Guest:Made the deal for a seven-figure sum.

00:48:09Guest:Okay, seven-figure sum.

00:48:11Guest:But what does that mean?

00:48:12Guest:Okay, you don't want to tell me what it means.

00:48:14Guest:You don't want to say because it's too personal.

00:48:17Guest:This is a business magazine.

00:48:19Guest:No, you don't want to say because it's not really a six-figure sum or whatever.

00:48:23Guest:It's you being clever about telling this PR story that's this fairy tale that we continually want to believe in.

00:48:35Marc:Well, I think the fascinating thing about just hearing your passion about it is the fact is that you look at that business magazine because you're in the business and you're trying to fund movies and bankroll movies and make movies happen.

00:48:45Marc:And I think that as a testament to your talent, but also your persistence.

00:48:50Marc:that what it really takes to get something done is to keep pushing to get it done and to keep finding the people that can help you get it done and to find people that believe in your talent and connect you with the people that will help you get it done.

00:49:02Marc:I mean, a lot of people have this idea, and I wrote a joke years ago that it took me years to learn that Hollywood isn't my parents, that you're going to come out here and everyone's going to be like, thank God he's here.

00:49:11Marc:Now we can start work.

00:49:13Marc:But the real work, unfortunately, on some level is 75% of what you're going through right now.

00:49:19Marc:Creativity.

00:49:20Marc:in and of itself, is not the bulk of the work.

00:49:23Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:49:24Guest:Yeah, it's true.

00:49:25Guest:And yet you have to grant that that's the important work.

00:49:31Guest:And you can only do a certain amount of the politicking and manipulation, or at least I can.

00:49:38Guest:I think everybody can.

00:49:39Guest:Everybody has a certain level where they go, okay, that's enough of that.

00:49:44Guest:I'm going to write comedy.

00:49:46Guest:And if you buy it, you buy it.

00:49:47Guest:And if you don't buy it, you don't buy it.

00:49:50Guest:And I'm not going to just try to maneuver myself into positions of success because that was never the joy of it.

00:49:59Guest:That's not why I did this.

00:50:00Guest:I didn't do this because I thought, how great would it be if I could get meetings and sell ideas?

00:50:06Guest:I did it because I like to write comedy.

00:50:08Guest:And so on some level, you're right.

00:50:12Guest:A big part of the job that people don't want to take into account is all the politicking and all the layers of effort that go into getting anything done.

00:50:21Guest:But having said that,

00:50:23Guest:And it doesn't happen, but if you could go off in a corner and write a brilliant screenplay, well, it might find its way.

00:50:30Guest:Yeah.

00:50:31Guest:Because, you know, on some level, you read the script that I wrote, I guarantee you wouldn't say it's a piece of shit.

00:50:37Guest:You'd go, wow, that was pretty good.

00:50:39Guest:Or you might say, I really like that.

00:50:41Marc:Right.

00:50:42Guest:Because it works.

00:50:43Marc:It is a hungry business.

00:50:44Marc:I mean, they do need things.

00:50:46Marc:They need more stuff, which is a great thing, huh, Mark?

00:50:48Guest:Yeah.

00:50:50Guest:At your lowest point.

00:50:51Guest:Yeah.

00:50:51Guest:When you're like, am I ever going to work again?

00:50:54Marc:They still need something.

00:50:55Guest:You kind of go, yeah, well, next week they're going to need to do new stuff.

00:50:58Marc:It's interesting talking to you because this happens to me a lot when I do this show and I've interviewed a lot of guys.

00:51:02Marc:I've known you a long time and we've never had an extensive conversation.

00:51:06Marc:And there were times, going back to Mr. Show, when I just realized how intense you are and how focused you are, that even the mixture between you and Dave, because I lived with Dave, I know Cross.

00:51:18Marc:Yeah.

00:51:18Marc:That, you know, that the way that comedy dynamic worked and why that was so great is because you are that guy who is, you know, like, we're going to work the fuck out of this thing and make it funny.

00:51:27Marc:And even if, you know, even if I have to push it through people's brains, it's going to deliver.

00:51:32Marc:And Dave is sort of like, fuck, you know, I mean, I know he's a hard worker, but I know David's.

00:51:36Guest:But I think you're right.

00:51:38Guest:You're right, obviously.

00:51:39Guest:And David would agree.

00:51:40Guest:But it's a classic sort of David would proudly agree a team.

00:51:44Guest:But I would argue this.

00:51:45Guest:I would argue this.

00:51:47Guest:That David is a more responsible guy than he lets on to be.

00:51:51Marc:Of course.

00:51:51Marc:Or he wouldn't be where he is, really.

00:51:53Guest:He claims that he is Mr. Anarchy, and life is just a big party, and who gives a shit?

00:52:01Guest:We're just here to have fun, and I don't care if you like my stuff or don't like my stuff.

00:52:06Guest:But when push comes to shove, and when he is put in a position of responsibility...

00:52:14Marc:without anybody to back him up or to throw the ball to he steps up yeah usually there's a funny story that that sort of sheds a little light on that like and it's happened twice because i started with dave and when i when we were both doing stand-up i mean he really couldn't give his stand-up away because it was too abstract it was too odd for people to take in regular people and i've had him on interview shows before and i've said this to him not meaning to be rude

00:52:39Marc:Because I remember telling him to come off stage that, you know, you've had enough.

00:52:43Marc:That's enough, yeah.

00:52:45Marc:Where I said to Dave, I said, God, who would have known back then that you would have been the guy?

00:52:50Marc:And he looks at me and he's like, why do you always say that?

00:52:53Marc:I knew.

00:52:54Marc:Yeah.

00:52:55Guest:Well, I know that feeling too, you know.

00:52:58Guest:I've had people say to me, the thing I've always gotten that I hated is, man, you're great.

00:53:05Guest:You're weird.

00:53:06Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:53:07Guest:I go, really?

00:53:08Guest:Am I weird?

00:53:09Guest:You're not weird.

00:53:10Guest:Am I that weird?

00:53:11Guest:No.

00:53:11Guest:I don't know.

00:53:11Guest:I don't think I'm that weird.

00:53:13Marc:Did you ever have a point where you resented stand-ups?

00:53:16Guest:Honestly, because early on- No, look, I never thought of myself as a stand-up and I still don't.

00:53:21Guest:Okay, right.

00:53:22Guest:I can do a version of stand-up comedy.

00:53:25Guest:I think what happened with me is, you know, the standup boom happened when we were young guys.

00:53:29Guest:Yes.

00:53:30Guest:And so I was purely interested in sketch comedy.

00:53:34Guest:Okay.

00:53:34Guest:But I saw that I could write jokes and I could make a living, not a great living.

00:53:39Guest:Right.

00:53:40Guest:With the standup boom.

00:53:41Guest:You know, in Chicago, they went from two clubs to eight clubs.

00:53:46Guest:In like a year and a half.

00:53:48Guest:Right.

00:53:49Guest:So like now they need eight middles every night.

00:53:52Guest:Yeah.

00:53:53Guest:Every night.

00:53:54Guest:So you're able to do it.

00:53:54Guest:At least Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

00:53:56Guest:So I can make 50 bucks, 60 bucks, 120 bucks in a night.

00:54:02Marc:In the big picture, you don't see stand-up as limited or limited or not.

00:54:07Guest:Here's my feeling about stand-up that's always been a challenge for me.

00:54:11Guest:And I knew this pretty quickly.

00:54:13Yeah.

00:54:15Guest:most stand-ups that work they sort of master their own voice yeah they know their rhythms they know their point of view and and they master it and some of them take it to the point of caricature you know sure emo phillips or whatever who's a friend of mine and a great guy you become really funny guy you become a caricature of yourself he's a caricature he's a cartoon of himself on stage right

00:54:37Guest:Even Woody Allen.

00:54:38Guest:That's a product.

00:54:39Guest:Yeah, no, that's your persona.

00:54:41Guest:Okay.

00:54:42Guest:They develop a very sort of focused persona.

00:54:45Guest:I can't do that.

00:54:46Guest:Right.

00:54:47Guest:I can't do it.

00:54:48Guest:And I've tried.

00:54:50Guest:And I've tried- You've actually tried?

00:54:51Guest:Well, intentionally and unintentionally.

00:54:54Marc:By writing or by behavior?

00:54:57Guest:Like for instance, let's say I take my, what I have material.

00:55:01Guest:Yeah.

00:55:02Guest:And I go, I'm going to do all jokes for the next couple of weeks.

00:55:05Guest:Just real joke jokes.

00:55:06Guest:I'm not going to ramble and tell stories or try to.

00:55:11Guest:And I'll do that and it can go over very well.

00:55:13Marc:Yeah.

00:55:14Guest:And I just want to shoot myself after three of those shows.

00:55:18Guest:And then I stopped being able to do it at all.

00:55:20Guest:I just can't even do it.

00:55:22Guest:Because you hate it.

00:55:22Guest:Well, I don't know if it's hated.

00:55:23Guest:Something's broken in me.

00:55:25Guest:I can't do it.

00:55:26Guest:I remember when I saw Dennis Miller at Saturday Night Live and he would warm up the show.

00:55:30Guest:Yeah.

00:55:30Guest:When I was a writer there, he would do 15 minutes, 10 minutes before the show.

00:55:35Guest:Yeah.

00:55:36Guest:And it was the same 10 minutes every week.

00:55:40Marc:You felt yourself leave yourself.

00:55:41Marc:You felt like I'm just this machine.

00:55:43Marc:I might as well go sit down in the crowd.

00:55:44Guest:That's a talent, you know, Mark.

00:55:46Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:55:47Guest:That's not easy to do.

00:55:48Guest:I'm more like you.

00:55:49Guest:Now, you don't do that.

00:55:50Guest:I know.

00:55:51Guest:I know, but you do what you do.

00:55:53Guest:That's right.

00:55:54Guest:But see, I still do jokes, too.

00:55:55Guest:Yeah.

00:55:56Guest:I still, if I just do stories, I go, I want to tell some jokes.

00:56:00Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:00Guest:This is too much.

00:56:01Marc:Too taxing.

00:56:02Guest:This is too out on a limb.

00:56:04Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:05Guest:This is too.

00:56:05Marc:Yeah.

00:56:06Guest:I got these 10 funny jokes.

00:56:09Guest:Just tell them all.

00:56:09Guest:They're really funny.

00:56:10Marc:I'm trying to do that right now.

00:56:11Marc:I'm actually writing jokes just for relief.

00:56:14Marc:Let's do something I've never done before, and then we'll try to bring it around, which is like I just sent out on Twitter that I'm talking to you.

00:56:21Marc:So I've got people asking questions.

00:56:24Marc:What's your favorite memory from Mr. Show?

00:56:26Marc:That's from Dreaming Tree.

00:56:29Guest:My favorite memory from Mr. Show.

00:56:31Marc:Even if it's not on air, even if it's just a moment.

00:56:34Guest:In a way, it was just the camaraderie of shooting at night in the middle of nowhere, some crazy scene.

00:56:41Guest:But throwing the covers back on David when he's in the little puppet body.

00:56:47Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:48Guest:And the audience reaction was like a wave.

00:56:51Guest:I was there that night.

00:56:52Guest:It was powerful.

00:56:54Marc:I think I was there that night.

00:56:55Guest:That knocked you on your ass.

00:56:56Marc:With the rock and roll thing?

00:56:57Marc:Yes.

00:56:58Marc:Yeah.

00:56:59Yeah.

00:56:59Guest:So that's a memory.

00:57:01Guest:Saying goodbye at the end of the series.

00:57:03Marc:Why didn't it last longer?

00:57:04Guest:You know, it's a bit of a complex story.

00:57:07Guest:I'll try to make it very short.

00:57:10Guest:uh, as we were going into our fourth season, um, they primed our spot, which was Friday at midnight, which was when our show ran and they ran the best of special there the two weeks before we were to premiere.

00:57:26Guest:And then a week before we were to premiere, they called us and said, we're moving you guys to Monday at midnight.

00:57:32Guest:We want to get midnight going on every night of the week.

00:57:35Uh,

00:57:36Guest:And we're going to make you the show that happens Monday at midnight on HBO.

00:57:41Guest:Now, they've already primed the spot Friday at midnight.

00:57:43Guest:I mean, they promoted it.

00:57:44Guest:Right.

00:57:45Guest:And that's when we'd been for three years in a row.

00:57:49Guest:And somebody said that Chris Rock bumped us.

00:57:52Guest:And I don't really understand how he bumped us because his show would have ended an hour before ours.

00:57:57Guest:I don't understand that criticism.

00:57:59Guest:Yeah.

00:57:59Guest:So I don't blame Chris.

00:58:01Guest:Maybe I should, but I don't understand why.

00:58:03Guest:Yeah.

00:58:04Guest:But in a big way, it was a vote of no confidence from HBO.

00:58:10Guest:There were HBO executives who loved us, Chris Albrecht, Carolyn Strauss, who you would think could have us on whenever.

00:58:17Guest:But this was before The Sopranos and before Sex and the City.

00:58:19Guest:So they hadn't had massive success yet.

00:58:22Guest:Right.

00:58:22Guest:So Chris, I think they still had to do what the company wanted to do.

00:58:26Guest:Right.

00:58:26Guest:They couldn't tell everybody what happened.

00:58:28Guest:Right.

00:58:29Right.

00:58:29Guest:That's my guess.

00:58:30Guest:I mean, I don't know this stuff.

00:58:31Guest:I'm conjecturing.

00:58:33Guest:All right.

00:58:33Guest:And I always had the sense that the New York executives didn't like the show, didn't understand it.

00:58:38Guest:So they weren't really fans of it.

00:58:39Guest:They were like, what is this thing?

00:58:41Guest:You keep making it.

00:58:42Guest:Why?

00:58:42Marc:Did you have a sense how much of an impact it would have?

00:58:46Marc:Because it certainly, it seems to be the turning point for a lot of people in alternative comedy and everything else.

00:58:53Guest:If you'd asked me then, I mean, I don't think I could have said it out loud because it would have been... Right.

00:58:58Guest:Arrogant.

00:58:59Guest:Arrogant.

00:59:00Guest:But if you said, do you think you're making something really great and people are going to watch it and go, I would have said, yeah, I do.

00:59:07Guest:I remember making those shows thinking the great thing about the show is maybe nobody's going to see it.

00:59:11Guest:But over time, people are going to see it.

00:59:13Guest:They're going to see how great this is.

00:59:14Marc:That's awesome.

00:59:15Guest:You know, so yeah, I had a sense.

00:59:16Marc:I just said that this is awesome.

00:59:18Marc:Did you hear me say that like a teenager?

00:59:20Marc:That's all right.

00:59:20Marc:Here's one.

00:59:21Marc:Jonas Polsky said, describe your experience discovering Tim and Eric.

00:59:25Guest:I got an envelope, a large manila envelope and opened it up and it had the DVDs in it and they're from Tim and Eric.

00:59:35Guest:And I sometimes get stuff like that.

00:59:37Guest:Usually just throw it out.

00:59:38Guest:I mean, really, I just throw it right out because...

00:59:41Guest:Unless you have a- I know, this is all.

00:59:43Guest:You need to have a release.

00:59:45Guest:Yeah.

00:59:46Guest:Because you could get sued by somebody.

00:59:47Guest:Oh, really?

00:59:48Guest:Who says, you stole my idea.

00:59:49Guest:I mean, I'm always writing so many different things.

00:59:53Guest:How many people could think I stole it?

00:59:55Guest:I don't know.

00:59:56Guest:I mean, I'm writing jokes and movies and helping other people.

01:00:00Guest:Oh, I see what you're saying.

01:00:01Guest:Right, right, right.

01:00:02Guest:When I was at Saturday Night Live, we got sued about an idea.

01:00:08Guest:and Conan O'Brien and I and Robert Smigel had written this scene that we'd gotten sued over and of course we hadn't stolen it from anybody but this guy sued he said you stole my idea and he had written some comedy sketch that

01:00:23Guest:in a very broad way, was the similar thing.

01:00:27Guest:But I've had specific ways.

01:00:29Guest:You know, Chuck Klosserman, when I first met him, told me, you know, I wrote America Blows Up the Moon.

01:00:35Guest:That was a Mr. Show sketch.

01:00:36Guest:Yeah.

01:00:37Guest:And he wrote some comedy essay about America blowing up the moon.

01:00:43Guest:Like it was the same idea.

01:00:44Guest:Yeah.

01:00:44Guest:Now that's a pretty crazy idea.

01:00:46Guest:Yeah.

01:00:46Guest:A pretty curious idea, but...

01:00:48Guest:Hey, somebody else thought of it too.

01:00:50Guest:It happens.

01:00:51Guest:I mean, it happens.

01:00:51Marc:Yeah, we're all drawn from the same reality pool.

01:00:53Guest:I mean, the craziest idea you have, somebody may have thought of.

01:00:58Marc:So Tim and Eric sent you this package.

01:00:59Guest:So Tim and Eric sent me this thing.

01:01:00Guest:Usually I wouldn't look at it, but they also sent with it a bill for like 50 bucks.

01:01:06Guest:For what?

01:01:07Guest:An itemized bill for sending me that DVD.

01:01:09Guest:An itemized, very official looking, totally dry bill.

01:01:13Uh-huh.

01:01:15Guest:Which was just awesome.

01:01:16Guest:Did you pay it?

01:01:17Guest:I called him up and I said, this is so funny.

01:01:20Guest:And then I watched it and I thought that they'd really developed.

01:01:23Guest:I said, you guys have a sensibility that all these pieces, they're all different, but they all share a sensibility.

01:01:30Guest:That's hard to do.

01:01:31Marc:I liken them to like Frank Zappa or Ween.

01:01:35Guest:I agree.

01:01:35Guest:I mean, I think they're on the funnier side of Frank Zappa.

01:01:39Marc:No, I mean, not in funny, but just in terms of like Tim and Eric as you could not say like that, that there's any specific thing other than that vision, the sort of aesthetic of them.

01:01:52Marc:You know what I'm saying?

01:01:53Guest:I think they make fun of, this is my big grand theory about Tim and Eric.

01:01:57Guest:Yeah.

01:01:57Guest:I think their subject matter is media and the delivery of ideas.

01:02:02Marc:And the history of it, too, in a way.

01:02:04Guest:That's what they're making fun of.

01:02:05Guest:Right.

01:02:05Guest:That's what they're lampooning and ridiculing.

01:02:07Guest:They're not ridiculing things.

01:02:10Guest:They make up funny things, funny sitcoms, funny products to sell.

01:02:15Marc:But they're playing with the context.

01:02:16Guest:Yeah, they're totally playing with the context.

01:02:19Marc:Yeah.

01:02:19Guest:And people are hipping off inadvertently from watching too much TV to totally feel it and know it and get the comedy out.

01:02:28Marc:Yeah, because it sparks something.

01:02:29Marc:They may not be able to identify it because when you watch it just in format and structure and in the way they shoot things, it sort of has, like it reminds you of something from your childhood.

01:02:39Marc:It's almost like seeing wood paneling or it's almost like seeing the way they kind of spoof like local TV or older TV.

01:02:46Guest:Yeah, it's really strange because it's almost like you can't put your finger on their subject matter.

01:02:51Guest:Well, that's a sign.

01:02:52Guest:That's what it is.

01:02:52Marc:It's a sign of genius in a way.

01:02:54Guest:And yet it's, there's a, it's,

01:02:57Guest:It's not just absurdity for no reason.

01:03:00Guest:No.

01:03:00Guest:It's funny.

01:03:00Guest:Yeah.

01:03:01Guest:You laugh.

01:03:02Marc:Yeah.

01:03:02Guest:You know?

01:03:03Marc:And it's twisted.

01:03:04Guest:And it's great.

01:03:05Guest:They're geniuses.

01:03:06Guest:Yeah, I feel that.

01:03:07Guest:They're gifted talents, and they're hard workers.

01:03:09Guest:They're great.

01:03:10Marc:Yeah.

01:03:10Marc:So now, are you going to do, like, you got any live things?

01:03:14Marc:I heard there was a tour.

01:03:15Marc:Are you going to do a tour with Dave?

01:03:17Guest:David and I, last time we were together, which was about two and a half months ago, talked about doing a tour in about two years, three years.

01:03:24Guest:So that's something to look forward to.

01:03:25Guest:My kids are older.

01:03:25Marc:You put that in your calendar.

01:03:27Guest:Yeah, so save up because... And how old are your kids?

01:03:31Guest:They're 9 and 11.

01:03:32Guest:Wow.

01:03:33Guest:Yeah, they're growing up.

01:03:34Guest:It's great.

01:03:34Marc:You like it?

01:03:35Guest:It's nice, yeah.

01:03:36Guest:It's nice that they're getting older because the other option is they pass away at a young age.

01:03:45Guest:Oh, wow.

01:03:45Guest:um do you did you find it no it's great that they grow up because life gets easier i think now i've heard teenagers are hell but but do you find that having them sort of humbled you a little bit or made you a better person or a better uh i don't know you know you have to think about yourself a lot yeah that's true but i think you have to do that as you grow up i think everybody sort of has to if you don't if you're not lucky enough to die young and just get to be a flaming asshole yeah

01:04:13Guest:You will be humbled.

01:04:14Guest:You will be humbled.

01:04:16Guest:You will be humbled.

01:04:17Guest:Everybody gets humbled.

01:04:18Guest:Everybody.

01:04:19Guest:Or if you don't, then you're really broken.

01:04:21Marc:Oh, that's good.

01:04:23Guest:The people who just carry on with their insanity, even though the world has told them, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it.

01:04:32Guest:Yeah, that just happened to me about a year ago.

01:04:35Guest:The people who carry on with their insanity, they're really cracked.

01:04:40Marc:And you know what I sensed about you, though, because of what you're saying specifically, is I think I was that insane at one time.

01:04:47Marc:And I think that you don't indulge that at all.

01:04:50Marc:Like, if those people are around you, you will sort of like, okay.

01:04:54Guest:A lot of self-preservation.

01:04:56Marc:Right.

01:04:57Yeah.

01:04:57Guest:But also, I'm pretty crazy, too.

01:04:59Guest:I got a lot of, you know.

01:05:02Marc:But you're not destructive.

01:05:05Marc:Do you feel like you are?

01:05:06Marc:I mean, you don't seem self-destructive.

01:05:08Guest:I think you're right.

01:05:09Guest:Yeah.

01:05:10Marc:I mean, it seems that... Dude, I don't know.

01:05:11Guest:I got my own battles to fight.

01:05:13Guest:You know, they're not... What's the biggest one?

01:05:16Guest:They may not be alcohol or pills.

01:05:19Marc:But just the level of self-criticism.

01:05:22Guest:Rage.

01:05:22Marc:Yeah, you got the rage.

01:05:24Marc:Yeah.

01:05:24Guest:Yeah, frustration, rage.

01:05:26Guest:I think, you know, in a weird way, one of the things I've been facing up to...

01:05:31Guest:And I've always known this is true.

01:05:33Guest:So many things about yourself that you someday have to confront are things that you always knew.

01:05:38Marc:Oh, yeah, they're sitting right there.

01:05:39Guest:Someday I'm going to have to deal with that.

01:05:41Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:42Marc:And then the day comes.

01:05:44Marc:Yeah, and you're like... And you're like, ah, damn it.

01:05:47Marc:I thought I wouldn't have to.

01:05:48Marc:The line is drawn by you or someone else.

01:05:50Guest:Yeah.

01:05:51Marc:That shit's got to stop.

01:05:52Guest:You know, you're very complimentary to me, and I appreciate it, Mark.

01:05:58Guest:But...

01:06:00Guest:I think I've invested a lot of myself in my career and a lot of my self-image in my career.

01:06:08Guest:Now, I've done a lot of things and things that aren't that hip or whatever, but the things that I've really focused on and tried to do, even some of the ones that failed, I feel proud of them.

01:06:19Guest:I feel proud of the work I put into them and the fact that I brought a certain...

01:06:29Guest:personal, uh, vision to them.

01:06:31Guest:Yeah.

01:06:33Guest:Okay.

01:06:34Guest:But that, that, uh, the amount that I, I've, um, invested of my own self image into my own self image of my own, the pride that I take in that and the amount that that I let that define me is a little cockeyed because it just doesn't really matter what you do.

01:06:55Guest:I mean, it doesn't matter what you do.

01:06:58Guest:It's just what you do.

01:07:00Marc:Right.

01:07:00Guest:I mean, even if you're Picasso.

01:07:02Marc:Right.

01:07:03Guest:You should fucking be a human being.

01:07:05Marc:You got to sit at home with Bob at some point.

01:07:06Guest:Yeah.

01:07:07Guest:Yeah.

01:07:09Guest:And you can only get a certain amount of appreciation from the public or from the industry or your peers.

01:07:17Guest:And that's wonderful.

01:07:19Yeah.

01:07:19Guest:But it doesn't sort of really satisfy anybody.

01:07:23Guest:It's not really.

01:07:24Marc:Right.

01:07:26Marc:Especially if you're still at home and you're angry and you're freaking out about shit.

01:07:29Marc:Yeah.

01:07:30Marc:You can't fill that hole.

01:07:30Guest:I mean, it just doesn't really matter.

01:07:32Guest:These things are very...

01:07:35Guest:They're great and you should pursue them and you should want people's respect and you should want to respect your own work.

01:07:40Guest:But that isn't who you are.

01:07:42Guest:Who you are is not what you do and it's not the accolades you get and it's not the pride you take in your work.

01:07:49Guest:It is not your work.

01:07:51Marc:Yeah.

01:07:51Marc:So you've had that dark moment where you felt that emptiness.

01:07:55Guest:It's just the hardest part is like realizing like, wow, just so much of me is wrapped up in who I am.

01:08:02Marc:And you're getting a little better with that?

01:08:03Guest:I don't know, but I have to deal with it.

01:08:06Marc:I know that I have to think about it, and I have to- What do you feel when you're actually able to detach from all of that?

01:08:13Guest:Well, emptiness.

01:08:17Guest:Utter emptiness.

01:08:18Guest:Yeah.

01:08:19Guest:Right?

01:08:19Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:08:20Marc:I definitely know what that is, yeah.

01:08:21Guest:Complete loneliness and emptiness.

01:08:24Marc:And then in those moments, do you look at your kids and say, thank God, and do you feel gratitude and that kind of stuff, or-

01:08:30Guest:Okay.

01:08:33Marc:Yeah, you got some work to do.

01:08:34Guest:I wish that, you know, people always say, I do think having a family and having kids is a really, really deeply rewarding thing.

01:08:44Guest:But if you're asking if it... I don't think it's the sole hole filler.

01:08:52Guest:It is not.

01:08:53Guest:You absolutely are on your own, man.

01:08:56Guest:Yeah.

01:08:56Guest:And I don't care if you have kids and you're a wonderful...

01:09:00Guest:Dad and mom, that's great and you should be happy, but that does not – you still have your own journey and you have to fill that hole yourself and figure it out.

01:09:09Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:11Guest:It doesn't matter.

01:09:12Marc:Yep.

01:09:13Marc:Do you feel that – are you able to track that stuff down to your childhood in any way?

01:09:19Marc:Do you think along those lines?

01:09:20Guest:Well, you always have to look back at that, right?

01:09:22Marc:Well, do you feel like, because I know guys that come from similar things, like my father was manic depressive.

01:09:27Marc:You know, I know another friend whose father was not there.

01:09:30Guest:Your father, you know, one of the things about it is we're lucky to have the luxury of getting to think about those things.

01:09:36Guest:Yeah.

01:09:37Guest:Because, you know, I think about other generations and other parts of the world.

01:09:40Guest:I mean, people just can't get food.

01:09:42Marc:They just plow along.

01:09:43Guest:You know?

01:09:43Guest:I mean, you may feel like life's been rough, but this is a pretty nice house in a pretty nice city.

01:09:49Marc:Yeah.

01:09:50Guest:You're living in.

01:09:50Marc:Well, what are you doing to make yourself deal with this stuff, if you don't mind me asking?

01:09:55Guest:I actually go to therapy now again.

01:09:58Marc:And that helps?

01:09:58Guest:I did years ago.

01:09:59Guest:Yeah.

01:10:00Marc:Got a good one?

01:10:01Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:10:01Guest:I think so.

01:10:02Guest:That's good.

01:10:03Guest:And I think, you know, I think one of the big things I've done in the last year is just allow myself to just change.

01:10:10Guest:Yeah.

01:10:10Guest:Just really just stop changing.

01:10:13Guest:getting on the same treadmill every day.

01:10:15Guest:It just isn't getting you anywhere.

01:10:17Guest:So whatever that is, do some things with yourself, with your day, that just are not what you've always done.

01:10:28Guest:Because you know what?

01:10:29Guest:It's boring too.

01:10:31Guest:It's just stupid.

01:10:31Marc:Yeah, because people just watch you spinning your wheels.

01:10:34Marc:And the people that you love or the people that love you are just watching you spinning the wheels.

01:10:38Guest:So to all you guys, all you nerds out there,

01:10:42Guest:Whatever that thing is, just move on from it.

01:10:45Marc:And I got to say to you, I'll tell you, Bob, you know, you can stop being so hard on yourself.

01:10:51Marc:You've done great work and you're a very talented man.

01:10:53Marc:And I appreciate you coming by.

01:10:54Marc:Thanks, buddy.

01:10:55Marc:All right.

01:11:01Marc:That is our show.

01:11:02Marc:Thank you for joining us.

01:11:03Marc:This is Mark Maron.

01:11:04Marc:You have been listening to WTF.

01:11:07Marc:WTF pod is where you can go.

01:11:09Marc:Look, you know, there's a lot of videos up there, too.

01:11:11Marc:There's there's fun stuff.

01:11:12Marc:I know I don't have a chat community or anything, but there's stuff to do there.

01:11:15Marc:You can link to just coffee dot co-op.

01:11:17Marc:You can also link to to audible.

01:11:20Marc:You can also link to what else can you link to?

01:11:22Marc:You can get on the email list.

01:11:24Marc:You can donate some money.

01:11:25Marc:You can do whatever you want over there for as long as you want to.

01:11:29Marc:It's open to you.

01:11:31Marc:Please also visit punchlinemagazine.com for all the up-to-date comedy information and news.

01:11:36Marc:And by the way, I do read your emails.

01:11:39Marc:I can't respond to all of them.

01:11:41Marc:Let's be reasonable.

01:11:42Marc:My friends, you dig?

01:11:44Marc:I hope you dig.

01:11:45Marc:Are we Doug?

01:11:46Marc:Are we good?

01:11:48Marc:Also, don't forget, Eddie Pepitone and myself will be at the Madcap Theaters in Tempe, Arizona.

01:11:54Marc:the 9th and 10th of April.

01:11:56Marc:You can go to madcaptheaters.com for information.

01:11:59Marc:All right then, I'll talk to you next time.

01:12:23you