Episode 597 - Zach Woods
Marc:lock the gate all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fuckadelics what the fuck minster fullers i'm mark maron this is my show this is wtf i just woke up i'm in a hotel room in dallas texas and uh just did a show oh wait i'm in houston sorry i apologize i apologize texas
Marc:Does it matter?
Marc:I'm in one of those older, you know, maybe Hyatt's from the seventies where all the balconies are lined up.
Marc:Uh, so you can see there, they surround the lobby, but they go up by 20 floors and you can look out and it's just a stack of balconies.
Marc:When you go out to outside your door, you have a hallucinogenic experience by the, the strange angles and the, the, the horrible Heights.
Marc:And it's not pleasant, not pleasant to wake up to.
Marc:I don't really have a fear of heights, but you don't have to punch me in the face with it.
Marc:The glass elevators going up and down all the angles.
Marc:I'm woozy.
Marc:I'm woozy.
Marc:I had to go get coffee and I felt like I was going through some sort of dreamscape.
Marc:How is everybody?
Marc:I'm OK.
Marc:Today, Zach Woods is on the show, who is a lovely man and an amazing comedic talent.
Marc:And the guy that I'm a big fan of, it's a very odd thing with Zach.
Marc:It's not odd, but the guy made an impact on me somehow as an amazingly funny and talented person.
Marc:Brilliant person.
Marc:Just organically.
Marc:Didn't even have to seek it out.
Marc:Well, what happened was, I think I'd seen a little bit of Zach's work on The Office, but I don't watch The Office.
Marc:Never really watched it that much.
Marc:And then I watched first season of Silicon Valley, and I saw him in that.
Marc:Jared is the character.
Marc:Zach Woods plays on Silicon Valley.
Marc:Also on that show, as you know, is my assistant on my show, Josh Brenner, who plays Big Head.
Marc:I think he's back for a few episodes there, but he's also back for a few episodes of Marin on IFC, which premieres May 14th on IFC.
Marc:If you could get IFC for even a few months, that would be nice because that would change the number profile of the ratings system so it would make more people watch it in relatively real time on the network it's presented on.
Marc:If you could do that for me, that would be nice because there's still an old style paradigm in place for how people judge the success of television shows with those numbers.
Marc:So that's my pitch.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Anyway, Zach Wood.
Marc:So I'd seen his work on Silicon Valley and I dug it.
Marc:I thought he was funny.
Marc:But then...
Marc:My niece Eden came into town.
Marc:I don't remember when that was.
Marc:And the only place I can think to take her, to take the kids, is to UCB because they don't have an age thing.
Marc:You can go in with kids.
Marc:So we went to see ASCAT at UCB.
Marc:And this guy, Zach Woods, was performing in the ASCAT crew as one of the improvisers.
Marc:And I was like, holy shit, that guy's like some kind of fucking wizard.
Marc:And then months later, when my other niece, Matana, came out, I took her to UCB.
Marc:I also took her to Largo.
Marc:And Zach was there again just by coincidence.
Marc:And I'm like, he fucking did it again.
Marc:Guy's impressive.
Marc:And then I sought him out.
Marc:And then we made this happen.
Marc:And we had this conversation with him.
Marc:He's a lovely guy, talented guy, good conversation.
Marc:All right?
Marc:He was on The Office.
Marc:He's on Veep.
Marc:In the Loop was a film that sort of broke him.
Marc:And he's currently, you can see him on Silicon Valley.
Marc:Did a show.
Marc:Here's what's been going on with me.
Marc:And then I got big tour announcements.
Marc:So hang in.
Marc:Hang in for a minute and listen to me.
Marc:That's what we call a tease.
Marc:Big tour announcements.
Marc:Coming up.
Marc:Coming up is the key word to the tease.
Marc:After this.
Marc:Stay tuned.
Marc:Right after these things.
Marc:All of those are tricks.
Marc:They're tricks to keep you there.
Marc:So you listen through the advertisements.
Marc:You listen through the advertisements.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:After these, I'm going to say something amazing.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:If you leave, you're going to miss something you're going to regret.
Marc:So please stay here.
Marc:Things you don't have to do on a podcast for 100, Alex.
Marc:I'm in Texas, and every time I'm in Texas, I have this weird feeling that there has always been something in my head that has been threatened by Texas, that Texas was this huge monster of a state right next to the state I grew up in.
Marc:We judge Texans, as you witnessed from my conversation with Mike Judge.
Marc:But every time I come here, every time I drive here, because I rented a car again to drive, Ashley and I, my opening act, Ashley Barnhill, doing a great job.
Marc:We're in Austin where I rented a car, primarily to get barbecue.
Marc:My willingness and desire to get barbecue, willingness, what a funny word.
Marc:Yes, I'm willing to eat barbecue.
Marc:No, I fucking need it once a year, it seems.
Marc:But but I rented the car primarily to get barbecue.
Marc:Then I'm like, well, let's just drive the rest of these gigs.
Marc:So we drove from Austin to Houston.
Marc:And today we're driving from Houston to Dallas.
Marc:But every time I drive through the great state of Texas, I am amazed at its integrity as its own fucking country.
Marc:The people in Texas are just sort of like, look, they look like Texans.
Marc:They're big, strong, jawed people.
Marc:lanky cowboy style, people that look like they can handle cattle and wrestle things.
Marc:But I'm always, I find them charming, more charming as each visit.
Marc:And I know that sounds odd, but as I get older and softer in my heart and mind, I have a more open approach to the peoples of the world.
Marc:And I think I always had it.
Marc:I think I just had to reopen that door.
Marc:But so Austin, Texas, the Moon Tower Comedy Festival went great.
Marc:Thank you if you came out.
Marc:We had almost, I think maybe a full house at the Paramount Theater in Austin.
Marc:It was a great show.
Marc:A good time.
Marc:Did a nice long one for the peoples.
Marc:And then the next day I went to barbecue.
Marc:Me and Nate Bargetsy.
Marc:The great Nate Bargetsy, he's got a special coming out in a few weeks.
Marc:We should talk to him.
Marc:He's one of my favorites.
Marc:Me and Nate Bargetsy, Todd Berry, who I go way back with, and Kurt Metzger, another guy I got to get on the show, hilarious guy, writes for Amy Schumer's show.
Marc:We made the comedian pilgrimage out to Opie's in Spicewood, Texas, where I go.
Marc:That's where I go.
Marc:Anyone else can go wherever they want.
Marc:Stay in town, go to Lockhart, go to Mueller's up in Taylor, wherever you want to go.
Marc:But I go get meat at Opie's and I brought my friends with me.
Marc:And it's weird because in Texas, a half hour drive feels like an hour and a half.
Marc:So these guys were chomping at the bit.
Marc:They're like, where are we going?
Marc:Then we come into Opie's and they've upped their game at that place.
Marc:So we all got a pile of meat.
Marc:I swear to God, Austin.
Marc:Austin is like, it's like Disneyland, but all the rides are meat.
Marc:But so we got our meat and we shoved all that meat in our face.
Marc:Every time I have barbecue, there's a mixed feeling.
Marc:There's the feeling of like, this is amazing.
Marc:And right after that, it's like, I can't ever do this again ever in my life.
Marc:I can't do it anymore.
Marc:I have high cholesterol.
Marc:I'm a 51-year-old man.
Marc:I'm not old by any means.
Marc:But at some point, I have to behave and eat like a fucking person that's trying to take care of themselves.
Marc:But the road, man, the road.
Marc:The road gets me.
Marc:I'm out on the road.
Marc:I can't eat well.
Marc:This rationalization of the road.
Marc:And granted, I'm not out here with one syringe in my arm of Coke and one syringe in my arm of heroin like Freddie King style.
Marc:I'm not out here drinking.
Marc:I'm not out here drinking all night.
Marc:What I'm doing is I'm not exercising and I'm justifying and rationalizing my desire to eat horrible food.
Marc:I had chicken and waffles two nights ago.
Marc:The night after a barbecue, I had chicken and waffles.
Marc:Why didn't I just put a gun in my mouth?
Marc:Because why do I got to do that?
Marc:Why, folks?
Marc:Why do we do it?
Marc:Like, I'm okay.
Marc:Why can't I enjoy some bad food?
Marc:Why can't I just live with the fact that I went out and had ice cream last night?
Marc:Why does this have to be the ongoing dialogue in my heart and mind, my heart that's slowly getting clogged and my mind that no longer understands that I'm an old man?
Marc:Why can't I get my heart and mind on the same page and just allow me to eat these things and decide that it's worth dying for?
Marc:It's worth it.
Marc:How did he live?
Marc:Well, he had barbecue once a year that he resented himself for, but I don't think that's what killed him.
Marc:I don't think it was the chicken and waffles that he had twice in his life or the ice cream that he overdid sometimes, but in retrospect, in the big picture, didn't eat too much of.
Marc:I don't think it was the genetic predisposition to high cholesterol.
Marc:I don't think that's what killed him.
Marc:What really killed him was the amount he beat himself up
Marc:for engaging in things he enjoyed.
Marc:It's a very sad state of affairs.
Marc:The guilt and the shame and the amount that he just made himself feel horrible for eating things that were fun is what killed this man.
Marc:That's what did it.
Marc:That's what did it.
Marc:His heart got tired of him beating the shit out of himself.
Marc:It's a very sad story.
Marc:But I'll tell you this.
Marc:I'll tell you this.
Marc:It was fun to see my friends.
Marc:That's the one thing about festivals.
Marc:It was great to go out and eat with those guys and talk to those guys and laugh with those guys.
Marc:And I chicken waffles with Blaine Kapatch and the amazing Dana Gould.
Marc:And these are people I've known for 20 years.
Marc:And we don't see each other much.
Marc:And we get to hang out and eat bad food and laugh.
Marc:That is the one element.
Marc:I know I've talked about this before, but the greatest thing about being a comedian is hanging out with a bunch of other brilliant motherfuckers who know how to make you laugh and have to do it instinctively.
Marc:They have to do it more than communicate like regular people, and you just fucking laugh.
Marc:It's just fucking amazing.
Marc:and yeah see I'm getting nostalgic I'm tearing up and also I have to say that I went and watched Maria Bamford Night Before Last and I hadn't seen her in a while and still I will stand by my belief that she is the best fucking comedian working she's possessed by true genius and I look I'm a jaded person and I sat in that theater and I had to pee and I didn't go pee because I didn't want to miss her
Marc:Loved seeing her.
Marc:She got married.
Marc:I think she's happier.
Marc:But what she does on stage is unlike anything else.
Marc:And it is inspired.
Marc:She's channeling some sort of mysterious comedy wizard muse.
Marc:Fucking you watch Maria Bamford.
Marc:You walk out.
Marc:You're like, why do I even do this?
Marc:She did it all.
Marc:Something.
Marc:She did it.
Marc:No one's going to be as good as her.
Marc:So I got to head to Dallas now and I'm going to send you back to the garage and listen to my conversation with Zach Woods.
Marc:I've seen you a couple times.
Marc:That's why, like, it's funny.
Marc:Like, when I first watched the show, Silicon Valley, I was like, I know that guy.
Marc:And I brought, for some reason, I had brought my, one of the things that I can do with my underage nieces is take them to UCB.
Marc:And I would take them to ASCAP if they came to visit me.
Marc:So I brought them to, I brought the older one, the first one to a show, and you were on it.
Marc:And I was like, oh, that's that guy from, and I put it together and like, you know, because you're very funny, you're a good improviser.
Guest:Thank you, that's nice.
Marc:You're very funny on the show.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:But then I went with my other niece, like months later,
Marc:And you were there again.
Guest:It was dog shit.
Marc:No, no, you were funny, but I was like, there he is again, that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were very funny both times, and you seemed to be different than most of them, the improvisers.
Marc:I don't know how.
Marc:You're an oddball of some kind.
Marc:So do you love doing it?
Marc:Is that why you go back and do it?
Guest:Yeah, I love it so much.
Guest:That was the first thing.
Guest:I started doing improv before I had any...
Guest:aspirations towards anything else i just i i wanted to be a musician when i was a kid i played trumpet and really yeah wait where'd you grow up i grew up i was born in trenton new jersey and i grew up in uh yardley which is in bucks county it's like a suburb of philadelphia philly yeah i like philadelphia
Guest:Yeah, I never got into it, weirdly.
Guest:I don't know what it was.
Guest:I always found it a little depressing.
Guest:Well, it is depressing.
Marc:It's depressing, right?
Marc:I think Pennsylvania in general is a little dark.
Marc:I was just talking about that on the show recently because I've been there.
Marc:I went to Pittsburgh.
Marc:I was in Philly.
Marc:It's heavy, man.
Guest:It feels like as a state, it's on the downslope of its existence.
Guest:Like its best days are behind it.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Well, they're trying to sort of, like Philly, like the renovation and stuff downtown, it sort of worked.
Marc:They're trying.
Marc:It feels vital, but it just feels like there's a dark and post-industrial vibe.
Guest:It's also, Philadelphia is kind of a racist city, and the sports, I'm not like a big sports guy, but I remember when I was growing up, Santa Claus would skate onto the ice around Christmas time at Flyers games, and people would throw batteries at Santa Claus.
Guest:That's not racist.
Guest:That's just weird anti-Santa shit.
Guest:Yeah, no, no.
Guest:That's just fucked up.
Guest:Yeah, it's so weird.
Guest:Because also batteries, you could throw drinks or things that they have at the stadium, but batteries are premedicated.
Guest:You have to bring a battery from home.
Marc:I don't make sense of it.
Guest:i don't know why batteries by specifically at santa it's a complicated combination of elements i think maybe i would say i don't maybe it's just like well there's an embodiment of pure childhood joy and that yeah kill it yeah destroy it destroy it like it was destroyed anymore yeah that's uh yeah maybe that is it there's parts of philly that are really nice you know but uh but trenton how'd you end up why'd you what you so you're you're sort of genetically new jersey
Guest:Yeah, my parents are both from Bergen County.
Marc:Mine too.
Marc:Yeah, really?
Marc:Not Bergen County, but Morris County.
Guest:Okay, yeah, close.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I feel like New Jersey, I have a lot of nostalgia for Jersey.
Guest:Like the Turnpike, I really love the Turnpike.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:All those old, it's hideous.
Marc:The Turnstiles?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:Remember when your grandpa used to let you throw the quarter in the basket?
Marc:No, that never happened.
Marc:Never happened.
Marc:Am I projecting it?
Marc:Oh, you mean at the tolls.
Marc:Yeah, at the tolls.
Marc:Yeah, you know, he's like, can I throw it in?
Marc:And then you hear a click in and then the thing would come up?
Guest:No, my grandfather was, yeah, disengaged, I guess.
Guest:You weren't afforded.
Guest:I feel so deprived.
Marc:Of that New Jersey.
Guest:So how long were you in Jersey?
Guest:I was there until I was like three or four.
Guest:Trenton is, you know, really not a great safe city anymore because when Martin Luther King got killed, this could be totally wrong, but this is what I remember, that there were big riots and the city kind of never recovered.
Guest:So it's got all this like...
Guest:Victorian architecture, but then it's very, very dangerous.
Guest:So it's like, it's like the set of meet me in St.
Guest:Louis, but like then the action of the wire or whatever, you know, it's like, yeah.
Marc:But you, when you're on the train, you drive past that big sign, right?
Marc:Trenton is industry.
Guest:Trenton makes, yeah, the bridge says, it says, Trenton makes the world takes, it's the most indignant bridge.
Guest:I think initially it meant like Trenton makes stuff and then the world takes it, but now it feels like, it's like, well, they just take and take.
Marc:I think it's all gone at this point.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What did they make there?
Marc:Do you have any idea?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:That's a good question.
Marc:I don't know what they used to make.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So what's your family doing outside of Philly?
Guest:You know, they like moved.
Guest:They used to live.
Guest:My parents met in Vermont and then they moved.
Guest:Vermont?
Guest:Vermont.
Marc:They were in college there?
Guest:They met at a mental hospital.
Guest:My mother and father worked at a mental hospital.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom was my father's supervisor.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's better than his nurse.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Your mom was your dad's supervisor at a mental hospital.
Marc:So your mom was a hospital administrator?
Marc:Is she a doctor?
Guest:No, she's a nurse practitioner, but he was like a low man on the totem pole.
Guest:Maybe they were just working in the psychiatric wing of it.
Guest:No, stick with mental hospital.
Guest:Yeah, it's a mental... They met in Bedlam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they ended up moving to New York.
Guest:My father's a shrink, and so he was getting his degree in...
Marc:Oh, so he was a student or something when they met?
Guest:He had to go to New York, then they moved to Trenton.
Guest:But when they met, he was a student, kind of, or an intern?
Guest:I guess he had finished his undergraduate education, but he was like, yeah, he was doing some... I guess he was an intern.
Guest:I should know more about this.
Marc:No, you shouldn't.
Marc:So he's a psychiatrist?
Guest:He's a social worker, but he does clinical therapy.
Marc:So he's a social worker, so he's noble.
Marc:Righteous.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:Yeah, he's a do-gooder.
Marc:Yeah, he didn't settle for private practice.
Guest:Well, he actually did.
Guest:He does run a private practice.
Marc:But that's his degree, CSW.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Oh, so you grew up with a shrink as a dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you have siblings?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I have an older brother and a younger sister.
Guest:oh and you had an older brother too to guide you through things yeah i guess so did he um i don't know i you know i never had that i don't think we had like a prototypical older brother thing where he'd like show me how to like catch worms to go fishing or whatever with or like how about just here check out this music no no no it wasn't uh how much older
Marc:Three years.
Marc:He didn't like tournament to music.
Marc:Did he have problems?
Guest:No, he was a great guy.
Guest:He is a great guy.
Guest:I'm trying to think if he exposed me to... I do feel like he's an older brother in the sense that other probably more physically capable people who have brothers fight and they learn to...
Guest:you know handle themselves physically with their brother we were not you know we were too like anemic to to do that but but uh we would argue a lot you know i think we like sort of sharpened our knives on each other that way you mean literally anemic not diagnosably but just sort of in terms of a quality not not jockey yeah right not jockey what did he end up doing he designs health care policy oh really yeah well i don't know what does that mean
Guest:Well, he like works, he worked at the Department of Health and Human Services.
Guest:Now he works in this program where they like develop like pilot healthcare programs that they then passed on.
Guest:And my sister, my younger sister is studying to be a rabbi.
Guest:So you're a Jew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, like the most secular Jew.
Guest:Like our seders when I was a kid were just like...
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like minstrel shows for Judaism.
Guest:It was like so offensive if anyone could see it.
Guest:Everybody just puts on the costume once a year.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:But not conservative, so like reform or nothing?
Guest:Like whatever's lower than reform.
Marc:So no bar mitzvah?
Guest:No bar mitzvah.
Marc:Both your parents are Jewish?
Marc:yeah uh-huh i have one grandfather who was a lutheran who played organ in a church but other than that you have a grandfather who's lutheran yeah so someone's not a jew yeah somewhere along the line yeah yeah that's interesting but uh all right so you're in philadelphia growing up right playing trumpet right and then i got braces when did that start the trumpet i started when i was in second grade could you play
Guest:Yeah, I was pretty good.
Guest:And then I started devouring all these jazz books.
Guest:I read the autobiography of Miles Davis.
Guest:Did you read Art Pepper, Straight Life?
Guest:I think I did read Straight Life.
Guest:Crazy, that book.
Guest:Chet Baker's book.
Guest:I don't remember that much about Straight Life.
Marc:It's all about jail and heroin.
Marc:It's about 350 pages about heroin.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:50 pages about sex.
Marc:Like, basically, our paper's like, sex came pretty natural to me.
Marc:Let's talk about Alcatraz and Narconon and heroin.
Marc:And Chet Baker was a rat.
Marc:That was his big problem.
Guest:Chet Baker was like, he like.
Marc:Yeah, he called him out.
Marc:He snitched?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Chet was a snitch.
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:That's what I heard.
Marc:That's what, according to art.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:I believe that Chet was a snitch.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's amazing to me that all these guys, you know, these incredibly technically proficient musicians were heroin addicts.
Guest:It just seems like, how did they?
Guest:I don't know how they lived their life.
Guest:If I get six hours of sleep, I'm basically incapacitated.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:These guys are playing the most advanced, sophisticated music.
Guest:For hours.
Guest:Yeah, for hours and hours and hours.
Guest:And it's physical, too.
Marc:It takes a lot out of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Strung out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I know, I just read the book on Richard Pryor and just the amount of coke and booze he was doing and going into, like, writer's meetings.
Marc:I was like, what the fuck?
Marc:Was it different then?
Marc:I mean, I'd done drinking and drugs in my life, but I could not work at that level.
Guest:Is there a point at which, because I'm such a control freak, I haven't really done much drinking or drinks, not when I've worked, like, at all.
Guest:And I wonder if there's, sometimes I've started drinking more lately and it makes me...
Marc:unsurprisingly less inhibited and it made me wonder it's like maybe there is like a sweet spot where if you're just like a little drunk it's helpful well that's what we're all chasing is that sweet spot in life it's like they're the worst alcoholics are they're just like there's that one time i hit it once and they spend their life trying to get back to that sweet spot right but but uh well that's good that never appealed to you huh that life
Guest:Yeah, I think, well, because in my very early experiences drinking, I was like, I could feel how irritating I was being.
Guest:Like I could feel myself annoying people, but I didn't know how to stop.
Marc:But when you get uninhibited, what does that look like?
Marc:I mean, I've seen you do improv and you're pretty uninhibited in a lot of ways.
Guest:Improv is like one of the only places where I feel sort of unselfconscious because I've been doing it long enough.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, that I don't, I don't, I'm not watching myself do it usually.
Marc:But you're very sharp at it and you're kind of dark natured.
Guest:I think probably I'm a little uncomfortable being aggressive in real life or being outwardly dark.
Guest:That's where it comes out.
Marc:Am I right about that?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:I've never seen myself do a show, so it's interesting to hear that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It probably depends on the night, too.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also you have, I guess, sort of your physicality.
Marc:You're a large, tall guy.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Cadaverous.
Marc:Cadaverous.
Marc:So maybe I'm just projecting the other part.
Marc:Maybe you just look creepy.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Just look.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I look like I came out of the TV ward.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:No, I feel bad.
Guest:Don't feel bad.
Guest:I don't feel bad.
Marc:Your sister's going to be a rabbi?
Guest:She's going to be a rabbi.
Marc:That's bizarre.
Marc:What kind of rabbi?
Marc:How hardcore?
Guest:Reconstructionist.
Marc:Oh, yeah, those.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The hippie Jews.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Kind of like, we're groovy, we're young.
Marc:Jews can be cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That one?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that's who they are.
Marc:I think my brother was into that for a while.
Marc:Right.
Marc:All right, so you're playing trumpet.
Marc:How old were you reading about Chet Baker?
Marc:12, 13?
Guest:Yeah, I don't know when I started devouring jazz books, but it was through middle school.
Guest:Did you listen to jazz?
Guest:uh i did yeah i listened to a lot of jazz yeah to this day yeah i although less now because i think like some of the bebop stuff is so cerebral yeah like now i'm more i'll listen to like ella fitzgerald or something that's kind of like singing yeah it's not like it doesn't feel like math problems math problems are like it's you're exhausted yeah right like what kind of mood is that i have a cousin that can't listen to bebop because it makes her anxious
Guest:Yeah, I totally get that.
Guest:I totally get that.
Guest:Also because if you feel like you're naturally sort of a cerebral person and your brain's always crowded with thoughts, Bebop just seems like you're just doubling down on your own.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:It can be good background music.
Marc:To me, my brain is always sort of spinning, but when I put that on, it is sort of soothing because a passive interaction with it kind of seems like a reasonable backdrop to my head.
Marc:But depending on which bebop it is, I mean, some of it can be kind of shrill and a little bit much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there's some shit that I can listen to.
Guest:It's even like, you know, there's like comedy that's like math comedy.
Guest:It's like the sharpest, most cerebral comedy, but it doesn't.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good example.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But if it doesn't – sometimes even a show like that, like, I'll objectively know, like, this is hilarious and brilliant.
Guest:But unless I'm in the right mood, it's hard for me to watch it because I find it – I don't know.
Guest:I'm, like, easily overstimulated or something.
Marc:Well, I mean, 30 Rock was like that, too.
Marc:It's almost like movies from the 30s, that the banter is so clip and so quick and everything is so orchestrated.
Marc:There's no room – like, you're watching something –
Marc:something so orchestrated and controlled, it's hard to appreciate it.
Marc:It's hard to just laugh.
Guest:Yeah, it's like I end up marveling at it.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Guest:Like, wow.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:They really put a lot into this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That took a lot to construct that bit.
Guest:And they found the perfect specific and the perfect, it's like, and then the performances, they like hit it just right.
Guest:But it, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, whereas like sometimes just, it's definitely not a fart joke.
Guest:Yeah, right, right, right.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So what happens to the trumpet?
Guest:I got braces and I couldn't play trumpet anymore because I had braces.
Marc:Was that a choice that you could make?
Guest:To not get braces?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My parents took me to Wynton Marsalis' dentist in New York.
Guest:A jazz dentist?
Guest:His name was Dr. Chops.
Guest:Was it really his name?
Guest:Well, it wasn't his birth name, but yes.
Guest:Because I was so upset about it, I was like, this is going to ruin my trumpet playing.
Guest:So they did everything they could, but ultimately I had to get them because my teeth were going to look like a train wreck otherwise.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Apparently it wasn't just cosmetic.
Guest:It would have actually been a medical problem.
Marc:Well, I had that, but they took the braces off.
Marc:They were a failure.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:They were just like, the teeth won?
Marc:It was my jaw issue.
Marc:It was a jaw issue, ultimately.
Marc:My jaw is lined up, so I had to have made... The choice was, like, the braces are only going to do so much.
Marc:We need to sort of realign your jaw.
Marc:Break it and realign it.
Marc:Did you break it?
Marc:No, I didn't do it.
Marc:So now my teeth are... My gums are all receded, and my teeth are only neat in two places.
Marc:But I've lived that way.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:My teeth aren't falling out of my head.
Guest:I have an indentation in my chest, like a slope.
Guest:From orthodonture?
Guest:No, I didn't get that bad.
Guest:I have, it's a slope in my chest.
Guest:And there was another, they had a procedure.
Guest:They're like, we can put a metal pole through the, behind your sternum and then snap this like indent, this slope out so that it's not concave anymore, but we might hit your heart.
Guest:And I didn't do that either.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:What happens if they hit your heart?
Marc:Well, it's not, it's not great.
Yeah.
Marc:It's never good when the pole that they're running through your rib cage hits your heart.
Guest:Someone's telling me there's surgeries in Korea where they'll break women's jaws to make them look more Caucasian.
Guest:It's like a cosmetic surgery.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:It sounds really fucked up and horrible.
Marc:It's harder for me to hear that stuff.
Marc:I have a physical reaction.
Marc:Apparently there's a bunch of plastic surgeons in Asia, I was about to say the Orient, is that wrong?
Marc:Is that outdated?
Guest:I don't think it's wrong if you're like a 19th century explorer.
Marc:In the Orient, where they have plastic surgery to make people look like anime.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like the women wanna look like anime.
Guest:Oh yeah, and they get those, they make their pupils bigger.
Guest:Dude, I don't even know.
Guest:Oh, God, I should look into that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Is that something you might want to do?
Marc:I would look so horrifying.
Marc:So you get braces and- Yeah, I couldn't play.
Marc:Were you playing a lot at that point, though?
Guest:Yeah, I used to practice hours every day.
Guest:I was really obsessive about it.
Marc:Have you picked it back up?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:It doesn't hold up well to neglect, though.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like a muscular instrument.
Marc:Was it heartbreaking?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I was really bummed out about it.
Guest:I used to take pliers and take the wire out of the braces because I'd get so frustrated.
Guest:So you could play?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did it work?
Guest:It worked, but then you had to get the wire back in, you know, as a short time fix.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you'd go into the orthodontist without the wire?
Guest:Yeah, he'd be like, what the fuck?
Guest:I had this weird orthodontist.
Guest:Not Dr. Chops?
Guest:No, this is the guy in my hometown.
Guest:He had a life-size mural of himself on the wall putting braces on jungle animals.
Guest:And then he had a picture of himself as an orthodontist putting braces on himself dressed as Superman.
Marc:He had like all this weird... Neither one of those makes sense to me at all.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:They're both bizarre.
Marc:Was he really putting braces on or they were just a painting or a drawing?
Guest:It was a painting.
Guest:He never actually went to the... He never actually put braces on jungle animals.
Guest:On safari?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Tranquilized wines and put braces on them?
Guest:But it was a 3D mural.
Guest:Like he had like a wooden... I think there was a walrus too.
Guest:I don't think it adhered to any sort of like actual...
Guest:Like Animal Kingdom logic.
Guest:It was like all these different animals had come together like predators and prey because they all wanted to get braces from this guy.
Marc:So did he commission these paintings or do them himself?
Guest:Oh, God, I hope he did them himself.
Guest:But I think he probably commissioned them.
Marc:And they were large.
Marc:Huge.
Marc:Wall size.
Marc:So it was like the kids will enjoy this.
Marc:That was his angle.
Marc:It was like there's animals.
Marc:I'm putting braces on animals.
Marc:This is for the children to look at when they come in.
Guest:Yeah, and there's a harrowing, barely recognizable version of me putting these things on the, putting braces on the animals.
Guest:He looked weird in them.
Guest:You were in, oh, you're the doctor.
Marc:No, no, no, I wasn't.
Guest:I wish I was in the murals.
Marc:And the other one was him as Superman putting braces on himself?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's bizarre.
Marc:It's really strange.
Marc:And you went to that guy for what, two, three years?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was he an odd guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:he was pretty weird he'd be like he'd be like dizzy gillespie man he'd always like bring up dizzy gillespie and i always feel so resentful because i was like you're the reason i can't yeah i mean it wasn't his fault why do you keep rubbing it in right so you'd walk in with your wireless braces yeah and he'd be like here comes the dizzy gillespie yeah right and then let's get that wire back in exactly exactly yeah that's so sad the struggle and your parents were just got to do it huh
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I, you know, they basically said like, you're not going to be able to, your teeth are going to be sticking out in such a way that it'll be hard to play.
Guest:Anyway, you'll be like this freak.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So, but you didn't think of other instruments or try other instruments?
Guest:No, at that point it was like.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:Like 13, 14?
Guest:Yeah, I guess I was probably 14 or 15.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And how much of your identity was wrapped up in the horn?
Guest:All of it.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:I think like in retrospect, I think it wasn't even – I like jazz music, but I think more I like the idea of being a jazz musician.
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:That'll tell me who I am.
Guest:I don't need to have my own tastes or preferences or beliefs.
Guest:It's just like I'll import it all from –
Marc:That's what you do.
Marc:That's what we do, man.
Marc:Especially as creative people.
Marc:You just sort of like, you want to just backload a whole persona onto yourself.
Guest:It's so weird.
Guest:I used to wear a fedora.
Guest:Did you?
Guest:When you were 14?
Guest:Oh, I looked like such a moron.
Guest:One time I was walking down the street and I was wearing this fedora in New York.
Guest:My brother went to college there.
Marc:And you were 14 or 15?
Guest:Yeah, but I didn't have like the other clothes I wore weren't.
Guest:Fedora-like?
Guest:Yeah, it was like just normal 14-year-old boy clothes.
Guest:And a guy drove up to me, stopped, rolled down his passenger side window and just went,
Guest:Lose the hat.
Guest:And then just drove away.
Guest:And I took it off and I never wore it again.
Guest:Was that it?
Guest:That was it.
Guest:That should be the name of your CD.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lose the hat.
Guest:It'll be on my tombstone.
Marc:Lose the hat.
Guest:Lose the hat.
Marc:Oh, and you're so fragile then.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:I already was like, every moment I had the hat on, I was aware, like I was thinking about the fact that I was wearing that hat.
Guest:But you had to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you think inspired you to wear the hat?
Marc:What made you decide that one?
Marc:You know, I probably thought I was like a latter day.
Marc:Because I wore fedoras too.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you pull them off?
Guest:I feel like you'd actually, you might be able to do it.
Marc:Well, there's one up there someone gave me.
Marc:But no, but like everything becomes, but when I was younger, like I had a large brim hat that someone had given me.
Marc:There was a period there where I bought a derby because I thought that might work.
Marc:Like I went to a fancy hat store and I bought a derby.
Marc:Where do you remember the first time you wore the derby out?
Marc:Yeah, I only wore it once or twice.
Marc:It just didn't work out because it's so look-at-me-ish.
Marc:That's the only problem with that is when you start to realize that about your ego as a performer before you become a performer.
Marc:There's so much of what you're doing is just sort of like... And you don't really think of it at the time, but it's really to draw attention to yourself.
Guest:Oh, constantly.
Guest:Halloween...
Guest:I used to do all this stuff that was like... Like, looking back, now I hate Halloween.
Guest:Like, I'm too self-conscious to participate in Halloween.
Guest:But as a kid, that was right before I was performing.
Guest:I remember I used to... One year, I learned the words to staying alive, you know, the set and... And I got, like, four of my friends and I choreographed a dance
Guest:And I got them to go.
Guest:They were essentially like accessories in my costume.
Guest:Like I bullied my friends into like being backup dancers.
Guest:And then I would go door to door and we would ring the door.
Guest:And then I would lip sync to staying alive.
Guest:And all my friends would do this choreographed dance behind me.
Marc:But did you let them get candy as well?
Guest:They got candy, but none of them.
Guest:I was looking for something bigger than candy.
Guest:Yeah, but you had leadership qualities, clearly.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:It was just coercive and annoying.
Marc:Do you remember the logic behind that?
Marc:Did you wear a disco outfit?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, I think I just thought, well, people are really going to love this.
Guest:And I remember one guy, he opened the door and he was like, do you want candy or not?
Guest:Shit, I ain't got all night.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, I just like wilted.
Marc:Oh my God, another lose the hat moment.
Guest:Yeah, I've had a lot of lose the hat moments.
Guest:Message received, world.
Marc:So...
Marc:All right, so when do you start the interest in the comedic arts?
Marc:Well, my brother went to college in New York, and he went to ASCAT.
Guest:He went to Columbia.
Marc:How old are you?
Guest:I'm 30.
Guest:Oh, you're young.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so he went to Columbia.
Marc:That's smart.
Guest:Yeah, he's a smarty pants.
Guest:And he told me about ASCAT.
Guest:That's what I went to Washington, yeah.
Guest:So that was at the old space.
Guest:Right, with that converted strip club.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That used to be a strip club.
Marc:With the weird chairs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like on 23rd or 2nd.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:Someone told me that they're like old, I guess it used to be a strip club and they had like a fairly large Hasidic clientele.
Guest:So like these Hasids would show up to the old UCP and they'd think they were going to see a strip show and then they'd just have to watch like alt comedy for 45 minutes.
Marc:Oh that's right.
Marc:And Matt Walsh like lived upstairs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So that era.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, so I heard about that from him, and then I started taking the train up into the city and taking classes.
Guest:From Philly?
Guest:Yeah, from outside of Philadelphia.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:All right, so you visited your brother.
Marc:You lost the hat.
Marc:Yeah, I lost the hat.
Marc:Did you throw it away?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I probably just buried it deep in a closet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:I don't think I've ever been more confident than I was in middle school going into high school.
Guest:The period that most people describe as the worst, I feel like I felt bulletproof.
Guest:I was walking around in a hat and doing disco dances and shit.
Guest:Now I'm like...
Guest:So riddled with self-doubt.
Guest:But back then I was like... Well, that's interesting.
Marc:It's an interesting idea because is that really confidence?
Marc:Because there's a picture of me performing, not in middle school, but later wearing a big brimmed hat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm on stage with a t-shirt and glasses that are tinted.
Marc:Are you doing stand-up or are you playing music?
Marc:Yeah, stand-up.
Okay.
Marc:Wearing a big brimmed hat.
Marc:Jesus.
Marc:Like, to me, though, like, I don't, like, I know I was cocky.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I don't think I was, there was no way I was confident.
Marc:Like, it was like what you were saying is this sort of like, you know, backloading a persona into yourself.
Marc:Like, you know, you see yourself in a certain way and you sort of model yourself after these other people, but you haven't really earned your personality.
Marc:Right.
Marc:When you would wear that stuff, aren't you just kind of like loading heckler's guns for them a little bit?
Guest:I didn't think about that.
Marc:I thought I was some sort of like, you know, hey man, I've seen some shit.
Marc:That guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like world where like- Yeah, I was aggressively, you know, I was 23, you know, and I'd really been through it.
Guest:23-year-olds with old man affectations are the fucking worst.
Marc:I was that guy.
Guest:Guys who are like veterans who like-
Guest:Grizzled old salt.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:23-year-olds should just wander into the ocean.
Marc:Well, but they're just trying to... Yeah, you're right.
Marc:I'm being... I'm not... Oh, no, no, no.
Marc:But, like, I'm just addressing the fact that you felt the most confident you were because you had decided on some things, but it wasn't really confidence?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:It didn't go that deep.
Marc:I mean, when did you kind of... I mean, I have to imagine...
Marc:But I don't know how anyone handles it, but you seem like a sensitive guy, kind of fragile, perhaps.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe that's just your character.
Marc:But I mean, I would think that going into, well, you weren't doing acting, per se, but going into improv, that must have shredded whatever sense of persona that you decided upon.
Guest:Well, I was such a dick.
Guest:The first class, I was 16 and it was mostly people in their 20s.
Guest:And the first class, there's this great improviser who used to teach in New York called Billy Merritt.
Guest:I know him.
Marc:He's out here now.
Guest:Yeah, he's terrific.
Guest:And he was my first teacher.
Guest:And the first day in class, you went around the room and he said, tell everybody your name and why you're here.
Guest:And I said, when it got to me, I was like, or he said, your name and what brought you here.
Guest:And when it got to me, I said, my name's Zach.
Guest:And what brought me here was a train.
Guest:I mean, what a fucking moron.
Guest:And he was like unbelievably gracious about it.
Guest:And he was like, no, no, why do you want to do this?
Marc:You're going for the laugh.
Guest:Yeah, but Jesus.
Marc:Did you get it?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I think I got like a courtesy laugh.
Guest:And then I was like, you know, I'm actually 30 years old, but I have a disease that causes me to look younger.
Guest:And then people laughed at that because, again, just to try to like ease the tension that I created with my unfunny remark.
Guest:And then I was like, why are you laughing?
Guest:I'm serious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was like, nah, just playing y'all.
Guest:And I was just like, I still feel so grateful to Billy that he didn't, he had every justification to just be like, fuck this guy.
Marc:But that's a dark sensibility I was talking about.
Guest:That your first words out of your mouth were lying about a disease that people actually have in the world.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:yeah oh god that was so i'm still feel like the cringes when i think about it cocky you were a cocky teenager and going for the laugh yeah why not so billy was just sort of like okay and you did he make you get honest in that moment or didn't you yeah but he was so he was so gentle like i feel like later when i was teaching if somebody had done that i probably would not have been as compassionate as he was what would you have done
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think I would have like maybe, you know, made a little speech about how, you know, it wasn't necessary.
Guest:You didn't have to do a frantic tap dance for approval all the time.
Guest:You could just, you know, that it makes other people uncomfortable.
Marc:So you really are a product of UCB.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why I do it now.
Guest:It's like, it's my favorite thing.
Guest:It's where I feel like when it shows going well, like when it's a good improv show, it's the most sort of alive and myself that I feel.
Guest:Do you feel that way with standup?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Cause I improvise a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I love doing it to the point where I'm like, when it's going really well, I'm like, I should probably do the material.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Guest:It's like homework.
Marc:Well, no, but I don't know if they feel like they're getting ripped off.
Marc:Even though they're getting laughs, there's something about improv in the context of stand-up where you're sort of like, do you have jokes?
Marc:Do you have things you prepared?
Marc:This is fun, but where's the... It's one thing to go to an improv show.
Marc:It's another thing to like, because I do have like an hour, hour and a half of new material.
Marc:But if I get on a riff and things are kind of popping and I'm exploring, I love it.
Marc:It's the best thing in the world for me.
Marc:But for the first time the other night, I realized like I'd done probably about 25 minutes of that.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then I start going like, okay, let's start the show.
Guest:But hold on.
Guest:Now, the audience is reacting positively, right?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They're laughing.
Guest:They're interested.
Guest:Do they care?
Guest:As long as it's... I don't know.
Guest:No, I'm projecting.
Guest:I'm projecting.
Marc:They might not even know what's... Well, one guy said... Some guy tweeted, like, I saw Maren the other night.
Marc:He improvised for a half an hour, and then he did about a half an hour of his hour.
Marc:So now I guess I got to go to another show to see the rest of his hour.
Yeah.
Marc:But he was being funny, and he wasn't unhappy about it.
Marc:But for me, to improvise it, for things to happen and to ride that out, I love it.
Marc:But I never did improv, really.
Marc:I always did it by myself, with an audience.
Guest:I think I would be too... I kind of feel like there's something about improv where you're like...
Guest:i guess it's shared responsibility and shared blame if it goes bad that makes it the idea of doing it by myself is just like totally although i did take a stand-up comedy class like the when i was 16 i took a improv class and a stand-up comedy class at ucb no it was called like the american comedy institute which was just who taught that uh steven rosenfeld or something steve rosenfeld from san francisco
Guest:maybe huh yeah but that i was like i felt you know really ill at ease and then when there's other people i i can't imagine do you i'm curious about that can i ask you yeah question with the twitter right i'm not on twitter and you strike me as probably as a sensitive gentleman as well as well yeah how do you withstand like like like
Guest:And inevitably, you see things, even that, right?
Guest:The guy makes a joke.
Guest:It's like a playful joke.
Guest:But I feel like when I first started doing The Office, I read comments.
Guest:I would read comments.
Guest:And I could recite mean comments that I read five years ago.
Guest:And I had to just be like, I'm not reading anything ever again.
Guest:Hurt you?
Guest:Yeah, it hurt my feelings.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But isn't Twitter just like an endless stream of even positive, negative feedback?
Guest:Doesn't it just like crowd your brain?
Marc:Yes, it does.
Marc:To the point where I think it's making me like slightly detached from life.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like it's emotional roller coaster.
Marc:It's like a crack pipe.
Marc:You know, it's like it's going good for a while.
Marc:And then like you just get a bad hit.
Marc:And some guy takes you down.
Marc:But the sensation, it's hard to understand, man.
Marc:But I used to take it really personally, and I'd just flame out at trolls and lose my mind.
Marc:But now I'm actually developing a bit of a tougher skin.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I've always wanted to, just to sort of take a hit.
Marc:Because a lot of times, the things...
Marc:The negative things people say will hit home with you if you have felt them about yourself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:If they're off base, you're like, wrong guy.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But usually if it's within the spectrum of things that you judge yourself harshly about.
Marc:Which with sensitive people can be pretty broad.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Then it's going to hurt.
Marc:So lately I've just started to realize that those people are just mean, horrible people.
Marc:And I don't even know who would go out of their way to do that.
Guest:Do nice things make you feel good or is it just the bad things make you feel bad?
Marc:Nice things make me feel good, but I don't take them in as much or in the same way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They're less credible in some way, right?
Marc:Well, yeah, because you're insecure in some way or you're self-hating.
Marc:And also the problem is nice things, if they're really genuine, like you helped me out or I was going through a hard time and that stuff, I can hear that stuff.
Marc:But if people like, you know, I got a good laugh.
Marc:I'm like, that's not enough, really, or whatever.
Marc:But the fact is, if someone hits a good insult on you, like you feel it in your guts.
Marc:Like it's so visceral.
Marc:It's horrible.
Guest:It's like a physical.
Marc:It is.
Marc:But it's like it is a feeling and it is profound.
Marc:So that's enough just to have an intense feeling.
Marc:It's not good.
Marc:That's what I mean.
Marc:No, it is hard, dude, and I wouldn't recommend it necessarily if you don't find any joy in engaging with the world on that level.
Marc:I kind of like it.
Marc:I like the poetry of it.
Marc:I like just because I get very impulsive about Twitter, and sometimes I throw stuff out there.
Marc:It's just garbage.
Marc:I'll just put the word nap and just tweet it because that's what I'm going to do.
Guest:Does it become kind of like a diary where you can look back at old tweets and chart your moods and your periods of your life?
Guest:You're like, oh, that was.
Marc:I don't do it as much as I used to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I've been a little busy and I just and also you burn a lot of material that way.
Marc:But so when but you find you're very sensitive to that.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, you know.
Marc:Everybody is.
Marc:Every performer I know is.
Marc:Anyone who goes to a comment section, there's nothing good at the comment section.
Guest:I saw an interview with someone, like Molly Shannon, or someone was saying that they described it as cutting, you know, like when adolescents cut.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They're like, reading comments is like cutting.
Marc:That's exactly right.
Guest:Yeah, so I try to avoid it.
Marc:So, okay, so you're 16, you've taken Billy Merritt's class.
Marc:It's funny because as somebody who is a UCB product, a product of it, I don't want to say that you're a product, though you are an entertainment, a piece of entertainment product at this point.
Marc:But like, because they were all sort of Del Close guy people, right?
Marc:They come from that Chicago school and then they built this other thing.
Marc:It's just interesting that now there are definitely graduates of the UCB style of,
Marc:of improv yeah it's pretty strange how like ucb has kind of populated a generation of uh you know tv yeah it's it's it's amazing i know it's pretty peculiar because second city had done it before right and now like they kind of are the new thing those four people i remember when they were just those four people
Guest:it's interesting like when people go to harvard or something and then they become you know a titan of industry it kind of makes sense because it's like well this is an institution that's designed with success in mind right but ucb like i said it's like an old strip club there's like all these used condoms like behind the seats there are you know yeah they like always find these like old condoms because i guess it was also people would have sex for money there and um
Marc:How long did that go on for?
Guest:I think it was like an endless horrific Easter egg hunt of prophylaxis.
Guest:But that place felt so loose.
Guest:It didn't feel like, okay, these are a bunch of people who are really focused on their own ascent.
Marc:I don't know if they were necessarily.
Guest:No, I don't think they were.
Guest:So that's what's so strange is that that then produced all these people who...
Marc:Well, that was 2001 he started going?
Marc:So they were all sort of around, or no?
Guest:Yeah, Amy had just started on SNL, I think.
Marc:Okay, so Matt and Ian and Matt were all there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The two Matts, Ian and Amy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Were teaching.
Guest:Yeah, I never took classes with any of them.
Guest:I did workshops and stuff, but they were around.
Guest:You could see them perform.
Guest:I used to fall asleep.
Guest:Matt Besser did a one-man show called May I Help You, Dumbass, where he had a phone number that was similar to a computer helpline, and so people would call him, and he'd fuck with them.
Guest:and he made a CD.
Guest:They call him thinking he was the computer helpline and then he'd fuck with them.
Guest:And I used to fall asleep to that in high school.
Guest:I would like listen to Besser's one man show as I fell asleep.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it's weird.
Marc:So you were locked in.
Marc:So you went right from the trumpet and now you had a new thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So the first improv class you took was with Billy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And what happened?
Marc:Like what made you go like, oh fuck, this is great.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good question.
Guest:Well, part of it is I liked having a secret comedy life in New York.
Guest:I didn't tell anyone I went to high school with that I was doing it.
Guest:It was exciting for me to get to go to New York and hang out with all these 20-year-olds and be in New York.
Guest:Your parents were cool with it?
Guest:They were really cool with it.
Guest:Yeah, it was weird.
Guest:It was just the most fun.
Guest:It was like the scariest, funnest, most exciting thing.
Guest:And I felt like I initially I felt like I was OK at it.
Guest:I felt like, oh, I'm OK at this.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Did it feel like like did you get like what with the trumpet?
Marc:Were you able to improvise?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to play.
Guest:I used to, that's the other thing.
Guest:I think like when I was wanting to be a jazz musician, my fantasy of what my life would be, it'd be like playing in basement clubs late at night, improvising, making not a lot of money, but like really artistically engaged.
Guest:And then doing improv is not that big a leap.
Guest:You know, you're in these basement clubs improvising late at night, not making any money.
Guest:It's like very similar.
Guest:If you couldn't play trumpet anymore, but you wanted as close an existence to a jazz musician as you could.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Were you actually involved in a very deep personal exploration that is collaborative?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:It's not lonely.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:But like it is you.
Marc:Like, you know, you have this support and you know that there is a structure there.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But you can go wherever you want to go.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It needs you, but you're not all there is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was really nice.
Guest:I also think I'm such a- And also you have freedom.
Guest:You have so much freedom.
Marc:Creative freedom.
Guest:The other thing is I think I'm such an anxious, kind of controlled, controlling guy that there was something so wonderful about something, a task, right, improvising where if you aren't present, you don't sort of relinquish control.
Guest:you'll be humiliated you you cannot it is a uh absolute absolute necessity that you be present and and give up your sort of preconceived notions and your you know so that that to me was like the one time i could get out of my obsessive compulsive brain and just be present do you have real ocd
Guest:I had some of that stuff.
Guest:Did you ever read The Witches by Roald Dahl?
Guest:It's a kid's book, but it's about these witches.
Guest:But at the beginning of the book, he says, anyone could be a witch.
Guest:They don't wear a tall, pointy hat.
Guest:They don't ride on broomsticks.
Guest:The post lady could be a witch.
Guest:The old lady down the street could be a witch.
Guest:Even your teacher who's reading you this book right now could be a witch.
Guest:See how she smiles at the absurdity of the idea?
Guest:That could be a cover.
Guest:She could be a witch.
Guest:So I read that when I was a kid.
Guest:Someone read it to me.
Guest:And I got into my head.
Guest:I was like, what if my mom's a witch?
Guest:And I'd ask her.
Guest:I'd be like, mom, are you a witch?
Guest:And she'd be like, no, I'm not a witch.
Guest:And I'd be like, okay, okay.
Guest:But that's what a witch would say.
Guest:And I would just endlessly torture myself for it.
Guest:I was like, oh, fuck.
Guest:Like, what if my mom's a witch?
Guest:And I feel like I've had some version of that ever since.
Guest:You know, like, it obviously, I eventually realized that my mom was not, in fact, a witch.
Guest:But that kind of, like, unanswerable.
Marc:What did it take to prove that to you?
Marc:I think it was just time.
Guest:It just went away over time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There wasn't an inquisition at the house?
Guest:No, I never caught her in a coven.
Marc:So what is that called?
Marc:Some type of thinking.
Guest:Like looping thoughts.
Guest:I don't know what the official diagnosis is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, so you've had that.
Marc:I've had lots of stuff like that.
Marc:It's frustrating.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's because it defies logic.
Marc:Like your brain wants to repeat it.
Marc:It's unresolvable, right?
Guest:It's terrifying.
Guest:Like from a little kid's perspective, like what's the scariest thing to not be able to trust or rely on the people who you have to trust and rely on.
Guest:And so it's like, okay, so what if I couldn't trust her?
Guest:And there's no way you can't solve it.
Guest:You can just endlessly run on that wheel.
Marc:Right, but the thought of them not being trustable or them being a witch, certainly your parents, it's that same feeling of getting insulted.
Marc:It hurts your heart every time.
Marc:Like, what if my mom... Right, it's exciting.
Guest:It's kind of titillating in some weird way.
Guest:Yeah, and terrifying.
Guest:Terrifying, right.
Guest:It gives you a charge, a horrible charge, but it makes you feel like, oh, horrible charge.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's what you get.
Marc:That's what it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's that feeling of like when you see that bad tweet, a horrible charge.
Guest:It's compelling.
Guest:It's really compelling.
Guest:That's what I'm telling you.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And it wasn't, my mom was wonderful.
Guest:It wasn't like she was, she didn't have witch-like attributes in any way.
Marc:But that's what a woman with a secret life of a witch would be like.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'd revisit.
Guest:You think I should take another look?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:so okay so you're going in there but what do you think that is though the control thing is like because everybody has it to a certain degree but you've called yourself sort of a control freak you know several times in this how does that manifest itself i mean are you is it generally because usually it's some sort of almost innate attempt at at dealing with anxiety and fear
Guest:Yeah, I think it was anxious.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think like my family is like a very talky family.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's like a psychologist kid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And to some extent, like the degree to which you could articulate your feelings or your opinions was the degree to which you had, you know, a voice, which makes sense.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I think I ended up being sort of cerebral and my default way of managing things was to try to sort of think them through or to narrate them or, you know.
Guest:Did you ever need medicine?
Guest:No, or maybe, but I never took medicine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you dealt with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The improv helped.
Guest:Yeah, it really helped.
Guest:And everyone has their things.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Everyone has their whatever, their compulsions.
Marc:So when did you start to surface as a sort of a star within the ranks over there?
Marc:I mean, you were 16.
Marc:No, but I mean, just in terms of like, how often were you going?
Marc:And like, what happened?
Marc:So you graduated high school and you just what?
Guest:uh well i started performing there when i was still in high school so i would take the train i wasn't sleeping a lot because i would do these shows in new york two or three times a week and then i'd come home and then go to like one in the morning yeah i'd like be driving home from hamilton new jersey train station and i'd turn on in the winter i'd turn on the ac roll down the windows blast music and just like scream to try to keep myself awake as i drove home because i was so tired and
Marc:Wow.
Guest:And so that was kind of exhausting.
Guest:But then I went to college in New York.
Guest:I went to NYU, mostly just because I wanted to keep doing UCB stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then that just continued for years.
Guest:So you finished college?
Marc:Yeah, I finished college.
Marc:What did you do at college?
Guest:I went to this program called Gallatin at NYU, which is like this choose-your-own-adventure college.
Marc:Did they actually call it that, choose-your-own-adventure?
Guest:I don't know if that's in their literature, but that's the gist of it.
Guest:You don't have a major.
Guest:You have a colloquium, and there are all these hybrid things, so it's like...
Guest:like it's always the like one you know the major like a major egalitarian would be like the intersection of micro gastronomy and third wave feminism it's like these like hyper specific combined things so like my colloquium ended up being the relationship between Christianity and the civil rights and abolitionist movements but it was kind of bullshit I think a lot of people get a good education there but I was just focused on UCB
Marc:But why would you pick that, those two, like if you were just focused on UCB, like if you had everything in the world, like it seemed like micro gastronomies and feminism.
Guest:It's just like all these like, you know.
Marc:But why'd you pick the Christianity and the civil rights movement there?
Guest:um i i think because i read all these jazz books when i was a kid i was sort of interested in black history yeah so i just signed up for all these classes that i was interested in and a lot of them were black history classes and then when it came time to sort of title my major i just was like well i took a lot of stuff about black history and a lot of religions courses so i just sort of retroactively came up with that
Marc:What was the religion curiosity about?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I guess I probably took less religion courses than black history courses.
Guest:Did you get a good grade in this thing?
Guest:Do they have grades?
Guest:Yeah, I did okay.
Guest:But I also did, I would get internship credit for, I was teaching at UCB in college, so I would get internship credit for teaching.
Guest:I would try to get class credit for all this shit I did at UCB, and they would do it, because they were an incredibly accommodating, flexible...
Marc:But what kind of degree do you get after that?
Marc:Bachelor of Arts.
Marc:And was that this was a special program within NYU that you had to find?
Marc:You sought it out?
Marc:You just didn't want to go to regular college?
Guest:I said right before I went to college, I had a conversation with my parents because my parents paid for college.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And NYU is really expensive.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I said, you know, I think I just want to.
Guest:go to UCB and I think I want to pursue this and maybe we should you know I could go to a like CUNY city college and it'd be five thousand dollars and I'd still have a degree and they were like no no you should go to NYU in retrospect I think it would have been a good idea to go to the city college like it's so expensive college is so expensive that unless you really so you didn't find that it
Guest:That it did nothing for you?
Guest:No, the teachers were amazing.
Guest:You know, there's like smart people working there.
Guest:And I met people who I, you know, still very close with a couple.
Guest:But yeah, I don't think it was worth six figures.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did it give you a deeper understanding of the black community?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean...
Marc:Like, you know, in a pinch, could you be some sort of community leader?
Guest:That's just what the black community needs is me leading the charge.
Guest:I think of myself as the new Al Sharpton.
Guest:Good for you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:You could always do that.
Guest:I think I did have like a really fucked up inappropriate sense of like, like when I was a kid, we were on a family vacation once and Louis Armstrong came on the CD player.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And in Miles Davis's autobiography, he talked, he called Louis Armstrong an Uncle Tom, which Louis Armstrong was not an Uncle Tom.
Guest:He was like a pioneer, you know?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But I just read Miles Davis' autobiography and I was like, I was just parroting everything I'd heard Miles Davis said.
Guest:So I sat in the car.
Guest:I was like, you know, Louis Armstrong was an Uncle Tom.
Guest:My father and my brother were like, what the fuck?
Guest:You can't say that.
Guest:Like, A, it's not true.
Guest:B, like, have you looked in a mirror?
Guest:Like, who are you?
Guest:Like, who do you think you are?
Guest:And I was insistent.
Guest:I was so angry.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:This is 14, 15.
Guest:I was like, probably 14.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just like, God, I like went to the fucking mats like about Armstrong and sent the black community back, which is the most idiotic thing you can say.
Marc:Well, you went with Miles.
Marc:You went with Miles.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're on board.
Marc:Well, you know, consider yourself lucky to have a father and a brother that were sophisticated enough to fight you on it.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:They were like, you moron.
Marc:I didn't even really know what you were saying.
Guest:That might have actually gotten physical.
Guest:I think I might have actually struck my brother in defense of Miles Davis' unfair assessment of Louis Armstrong.
Guest:That might have been one of our few fights where I was like, this requires, this has to come to blows.
Marc:Did he knock your fedora off?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Well, that's interesting, man.
Marc:Yeah, it's pretty weird.
Marc:So you ended up teaching improv where?
Marc:At UCB?
Marc:At UCB, yeah.
Marc:And that's it?
Marc:And then you just moved out here, or what?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:You know, I remember, you know who Katie Dippold is?
Guest:She wrote The Heat, and she works with Paul Fiegel, and she wrote on Parks and Rec.
Guest:We used to take improv classes together.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:But we were talking about once, years and years and years ago, she was like, what do you want to do?
Guest:And I remember saying, if I could just do improv and have a temp job during the day, I think I'd be happy.
Guest:That was your big plan?
Guest:Yeah, I didn't have, I never thought like, oh, I'm going to be an actor.
Guest:But then I started doing commercials to help pay the bills.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because you saw improv as a way of life and as a therapeutic way of life in a way.
Marc:And it's something vital.
Marc:It wasn't something like, why ruin it by having it be a job?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it was just the happiest I ever felt.
Guest:It was like the most- And you were teaching.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I started doing commercials because I was like, I need some more money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then that led to getting this agent.
Guest:And then I got a movie called In the Loop.
Guest:And then I was from that- I remember that.
Guest:Was that with- James Gandolfini.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's a military satire of some kind, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's about sort of the buildup to the war in Iraq.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I did that movie.
Guest:And I remember thinking when I shot that movie, I was like, wouldn't it be amazing if Alison Jones... Because I knew who Alison Jones, the casting director of all these great comedies.
Guest:I was like, what if she saw that and she liked me and she put me on something?
Guest:And then that happened.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It was so weird.
Guest:How did you know her?
Guest:I didn't know her.
Guest:She saw the movie and then...
Marc:But you said, what if Alison Jones saw that?
Guest:Oh, I knew her because I was obsessed with Freaks and Geeks.
Guest:So I found out who cast it.
Guest:And the American Office, I was like, I would watch that.
Guest:And so I just knew who she was.
Marc:You were obsessed with Freaks and Geeks?
Guest:I loved Freaks and Geeks.
Guest:Martin Starr to me was like, the working with Martin Starr now is such a weird, surreal thing.
Guest:Because Martin Starr was like one of my favorite comedic actors.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Really.
Guest:Well, come on, Bill Havercheck?
Marc:No, I love it.
Marc:I love talking to him about it.
Marc:Yeah, there's moments in that character's arc that just kill me.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, more than comedy.
Marc:You must have identified with him.
Marc:It's just heartbreaking.
Marc:How old were you?
Marc:Were you young enough?
Marc:When was that on?
Marc:How did you first experience Freaks and Geeks?
Guest:I saw it on DVD.
Guest:A friend of mine was like, you have to watch this.
Marc:When you were in high school or older?
Marc:No, older in college.
Marc:So you got obsessed with Freaks and Geeks in college?
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:To the point where you found out who the casting director was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I saw she'd cast all these other great things.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So she sees in the loop.
Guest:She saw it.
Guest:And I had that fantasy.
Guest:I was like, what if I do this movie?
Guest:She sees it.
Guest:And then she set up a meeting with me and the producers of The Office.
Guest:And then they gave me a part on The Office.
Guest:And this is like, I had that exact fantasy.
Guest:I was like, what if she saw it?
Guest:And then I got on The Office somehow and it happened.
Guest:How many offices did you do?
Guest:Like 50 or something.
Guest:I did a bunch.
Guest:It was a very small part.
Guest:I was like the tertiary character in the sixth season.
Guest:But yeah, it's so weird.
Guest:They say that thing like life is what happens when you're busy making other plans or whatever.
Guest:But I feel like in this weird way, these plans actually panned out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Has she used you in other things?
Yeah.
Guest:uh yeah I've done some movies like very small parts of movies with Paul Feig and uh which ones well I can't remember I did a tiny thing in the heat and I just did a small thing in this movie Spy that he made oh yeah yeah he's a nice guy he's wonderful he acted on my show and I've talked to him yeah yeah he's a great guy
Guest:Yeah, it's interesting when people are that high-achieving and warm people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're not total maniacs.
Marc:Yeah, they're around, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's reassuring when you meet someone like that.
Marc:And then how did you get the gig in Silicon Valley?
Guest:I just auditioned.
Guest:I auditioned for Mike Judge, and he put me in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:it's all sort of bewildering i mean i feel so lucky i feel so it's a great part i mean it's great for you i mean how much how much of it is your conception in terms of of the character because you're sort of doing it and you're not being yourself right exactly right there is uh hopefully not a very defined you know sensibility to that character it's how close was it to your audition
Guest:Different.
Guest:Initially, the part was this kind of more conventional business guy.
Guest:And then in the second episode, which was written by this guy, Carson Mell, who's this really great writer, he wrote stuff that sort of pointed to him being a little bit more...
Guest:I don't know if low status is the right word, but a little bit more of a gentle kind of peculiar character.
Guest:And then I started improvising a lot.
Guest:I would improvise a lot.
Guest:And they'd keep some of it, but mostly I think they started to realize like, okay, this is what he likes, this is what he's interested in, and then they would write to that, and then I'd improvise based on what they'd wrote.
Guest:And so I suppose in some ways it was probably... So you helped chisel it out.
Guest:I think so, but also like...
Guest:The writing on that show is pretty staggering, so I don't want to take credit.
Guest:The character is their idea, but I think my improvising probably helped them learn my voice.
Marc:Right, because all those elements of control freakiness.
Marc:Right?
Marc:You know, like in almost a codependent, you know, nurturing thing that is hyper anxious in a way.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I also think because I'm not like a trained actor, I need to improvise just to get loose.
Guest:Like I have to improvise in scenes just so that I can be present, you know?
Marc:But I like also the idea that, you know, finding that character through what was written and also whatever the interaction is with these other characters is
Marc:because like martin star is a satanist is what is is completely like he's thrilled about it and he you know he's had his journey to where he is now is is kind of daunting in terms of how show businesses yeah shook him up and and and in to the point where he was you know he abandoned it a bit so so i imagine that you know having to find your character the way it is is the most organic way to do it i mean
Guest:Well, you know what else, too?
Guest:I played this character on The Office, who was kind of like a bit of a creepy guy, like a little off-putting, and I really wanted to make sure that... I wanted to play someone who I really loved, like I thought was essentially a sweet person, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even if they're peculiar, I wanted them to... So you're aware of that?
Guest:Yeah, I was like, I don't want to play... I don't want to just play, like, dark... You know, like you said, I've played... Most of the parts I got early on were these kind of dark, off-putting guys.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I was like, I want to play... I don't mind if he's strange, but I just want him to have, like, his heart in the right place.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you like working with everybody?
Marc:Obviously, you're going to say... Everyone always says yes, right.
Guest:But this is the happiest professional experience I maybe have ever had.
Guest:It's so, so good.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Why?
Guest:because i like i just adore all of those guys yeah i just think they're like i've never had like a big group of male friends before yeah and this is like the first time i've had that experience of like i just really like them i just find them like easy to be around i can be myself one thing that's really nice about that show is like i don't know you'll go on sets right and sometimes you'll get the feeling that there's like seething resentment and all sorts of unexpressed anger yeah
Guest:What's nice is in the instances where people have a problem on that show, if anyone ever gets mad at each other, we'll fight.
Guest:We'll talk about it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:About what?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:If someone made a joke that hurt someone else's feelings or that kind of shit, someone would be like, that hurt my feelings.
Guest:People actually just talk...
Guest:about stuff and then it gets resolved it's like the healthiest working environment just among the cast it's it's so wonderful and and so it feels like there's like real affection and respect and and then the writers and the and the you know i trust those guys so much and they're so collaborative and i and the other thing is in the edits like i trust their editing so much like you can take big swings because you know they're not going to let you look like a prick in the edit right like
Marc:Right, big swings in terms of improvising?
Guest:Yeah, you can try stuff, you can do weird things, and they'll protect the character.
Guest:How much do you improvise?
Marc:A fair amount.
Marc:They let you do that?
Marc:I mean, in terms of, like, there is a script.
Guest:Oh, yeah, the script is mostly what you see on the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But sometimes they'll use improvised stuff, and like I said, it helps me just loosen up.
Marc:Do they do, like, a few takes, and they say, like, have more fun with, you know, just go for it?
Guest:You know, it's the most... They're really open.
Guest:And, you know, it's like my judge, Alec Berg, who's a writer, was like ran Seinfeld for a while.
Guest:Like, all these people are incredibly experienced.
Guest:Like, if I had written...
Guest:for as long and as well as these guys have i might be kind of proprietary about the material yeah but they're really not i mean they just it's not even like okay do our script five times and then do one fun run they're like let you improvise throughout um i think they want us to get the scripted stuff because usually that's the best version of the scene you know but it's it's amazing how how un uh how egoless the whole place feels
Marc:And what was your experience when you were first cast with Martin Starr, who you had these feelings about?
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:It's weird to have the sort of fantasy version of a person replaced by the real version of the person.
Guest:it's hard for me now to think of him as like the guy who played Bill Haverchuk because I've had enough you know just like personal experiences with him but like when he first got there I was intimidated you know I was intimidated and excited and did you say anything yeah I probably did I probably gushed I'm usually not very good about playing it cool it's hard for me to he's a very sweet guy he's a very sweet guy he's such a like sensitive kind guy he took he took me out to lunch right after we started like after we shot the pilot yeah and that was nice like that it felt like
Guest:Just you two?
Guest:Yeah, just the two of us.
Guest:And he's Buddhist.
Guest:He was telling me about Buddhism.
Marc:Yeah, it seems to work for him.
Marc:He was brought up with it.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Most people who are Buddhist became Buddhist within the past five weeks.
Guest:It's always like a recent affectation, but Martin's like the real deal.
Marc:Yeah, he was brought up with that strand of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's very interesting.
Marc:I must have watched the first episode because the fellow who died.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's his name again?
Marc:Christopher Evan Welsh.
Marc:Christopher Evan Welsh died.
Marc:And they sort of recast that part with a woman who seems to be kind of playing him a little.
Guest:Yeah, a similarly dysfunctional character.
Marc:That must have been heavy to have that kind of tragedy on a set.
Guest:Yeah, it was weird.
Guest:It happened in the midst of shooting.
Guest:I didn't know him very well because we hadn't shot a lot of stuff together.
Guest:But still, it was like... Oh, it was heartbreaking.
Guest:He was a young guy.
Guest:He had a young daughter.
Guest:And he was, I think, kind of like the funniest guy on the show.
Guest:He was an amazing character.
Guest:Incredible.
Guest:And in TV...
Guest:Usually you see people sort of warm up into their characters.
Guest:He just came in first episode with this fully fleshed out, very ornate, peculiar guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was blown away by it.
Guest:And I have this acting coach in New York who was asking about the show.
Guest:And I told her that he was doing it.
Guest:And she's like, him?
Guest:Because she'd seen him in Shakespeare in the Park.
Guest:He'd done all this heavy New York theater stuff where he'd been amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he's a real actor.
Guest:He's like the real deal, yeah.
Marc:And the whole thing is pretty fascinating.
Marc:I really took to it right away.
Guest:That's nice to hear, Mark.
Marc:Because like it didn't, the comedy ensemble is so great and the backdrop is so great that it doesn't matter really what's, you know, the idea of the startup or what's real and what isn't real.
Marc:It doesn't matter because the comedy is so fucking strong and the world is so strong for comedy and it's just great.
Marc:And you got Judge over there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Everybody.
Marc:It's going to go on for a while.
Guest:I hope so.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:It was good talking to you.
Marc:Yeah, you too.
Marc:Thanks for coming, Zach.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Good talk, right?
Marc:Great guy.
Marc:Love that guy.
Marc:Very funny.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:We'll get it updated with the new tour dates as soon as the tickets go on sale.
Marc:You heard it here first.
Marc:Why am I saying that?
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, you can do other stuff at WTF Pocket on the mailing list.
Marc:I'm going to write the update right now to send out tomorrow, which will be Monday, which is not your business.
Marc:It'll just screw up your whole time thing.
Marc:But, you know, I'm doing this on the road.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Boomer lives!
you