Episode 588 - Kim Gordon
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you for being here.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:Some of you have been anticipating this show, this particular episode of this show.
Marc:Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth will be on in a bit.
Marc:Her book is out, Girl in a Band, it's called, available now in all book forms and all book shapes.
Marc:Look, I just got back from New York City, and I've got to chill out.
Marc:I've got to chill out.
Marc:I've not taken it easy since I got done shooting.
Marc:I was in Rochester, as you know.
Marc:Those were great shows.
Marc:Um, then I went right to New York cause I had some meetings to do.
Marc:I had some people to see and I apparently had some food to eat.
Marc:Apparently it's weird.
Marc:My brain just starts knocking off things that I got to do.
Marc:I, you know, I immediately went to Veselka upon arriving and had a bowl of borscht and four pierogies.
Marc:And then later that night, I went there with Adam Goldberg.
Marc:I don't want to drop names, but we were hanging out.
Marc:So Adam Goldberg and I go back to Veselka.
Marc:I eat a bowl of borscht again.
Marc:I eat four pierogies again.
Marc:I eat kasha.
Marc:So Adam Goldberg, he's on this meerkat thing.
Marc:And he starts shooting this thing.
Marc:He's got to shoot a thing that he said he was going to shoot for himself.
Marc:And then it ended up he's shooting me and then me shooting him.
Marc:And it was three and a half hours of us on that phone doing some live streaming thing for like 300 people.
Marc:And it got pretty ugly.
Marc:Got pretty ugly.
Marc:I don't even know if you can still watch it.
Marc:We had a nice dinner.
Marc:We had a nice walk.
Marc:We had a lot of laughs.
Marc:We were having a good time.
Marc:We went to the bar at the Bowery.
Marc:Ran into some horrible women and a guy with a puppet.
Marc:You know how you can tell when some people talk that they're just nasty people?
Marc:fucked up people inside where like, you know, whatever they're hiding or however their tone.
Marc:And this was like, you know, sort of these women were in TV.
Marc:One was a publicist and one was a producer for news type shows.
Marc:And they were completely snotty and condescending.
Marc:Didn't really have any idea who I was.
Marc:And which is fine.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:No problem.
Marc:Most people don't know who I am.
Marc:But then the guy that they were with who had a puppet, that's why I pulled him over there.
Marc:Me and Adam were doing this dumb thing where we were streaming, and I saw a guy in the bar with two women, and he had a puppet.
Marc:So I had him bring the puppet over because I thought, like, this is funny and spontaneous.
Marc:That guy's got a puppet.
Marc:Maybe he'll come over.
Marc:So the three of them come over.
Marc:The guy's got no chops.
Marc:He's got no puppet act.
Marc:He's just a guy with a puppet.
Marc:He kept saying, this is Larry the Tranny or something.
Marc:I kept saying, you know, tranny's not a nice word to use.
Marc:it's a slang it's derogatory and it hurts their feelings and the woman's like oh it sounds like you know what are you NPR what are you politically correct and I'm like what are you some sort of latent conservative bitch like you know I said that out loud and it was not good because you know bitch in itself is a slang and derogatory but it just struck me the condescension the assumption yeah like politically correct it's just you know be nice
Marc:If something is defined and known to marginalize and hurt someone's feelings and, you know, be aware of it.
Marc:I wasn't even saying that.
Marc:I was telling the guy, you know, maybe you should not do that.
Marc:But then it's just like there's this tension.
Marc:I just saw the seething, weird, control freak anger, just the condescending and just spit it out.
Marc:Don't dance around it with all sorts of weird rage in your throat and guts that comes pounding through your face, through your dumb eyeballs, and in the slight lilt, you know, in your voice of who you are.
Marc:Sort of your entire being is some sort of knot of concealment until it comes out like, just like, bleh.
Marc:I've been lashing out a little.
Marc:So I got to get some rest.
Marc:Got to get some clarity.
Marc:Got to get some focus.
Marc:Got to get some sober-minded shit going on.
Marc:Been lashing out on Twitter.
Marc:I've had a beef with a local pizza place over bullshit.
Marc:Look, man, I like certain kind of pizza, and I'm on Twitter, and I'm hung up on the crust.
Marc:I go to New York.
Marc:I get beautiful pizza at Joe's Pizza.
Marc:I hold it in my hand,
Marc:Like you fold it over like a beautiful piece of New York sliced pizza where you can just fold it right in half before you even take a bite and the whole thing just is sturdy and beautiful like a perfect piece of pizza.
Marc:Perfect slice.
Marc:Fold that shit in half and it doesn't fall the fuck apart and droop and slop and everything else.
Marc:That's the way I like it.
Marc:I'm crust obsessed.
Marc:But I don't need to tweet that picture to my local pizza place.
Marc:I don't need to do that.
Marc:I don't need to attack my fellow comics in roast wars that turn personal.
Marc:I don't need to do it anymore.
Marc:I'm done with it.
Marc:But I had a pretty nice time in New York because the weather was nice.
Marc:So I'm walking down the street in New York.
Marc:Some guy just comes up to me and he takes his headphones off and he's standing there and he's like, hey man, Marc Maron, I've listened since the beginning.
Marc:I'm a huge fan.
Marc:It's so great to meet you.
Marc:It's so great to meet you.
Marc:Very earnest guy.
Marc:I believe his name was Jay.
Marc:It may have been Jason, but maybe Jay.
Marc:And I'm like, how you doing, man?
Marc:He's like, great.
Marc:I just can't believe I'm meeting you.
Marc:I just want to tell you, I'm just so happy for your success and that you're doing so well.
Marc:And I've followed you since the beginning.
Marc:And it's just great.
Marc:Just keep going, man.
Marc:It's just so great to witness the whole process.
Marc:And I'm like, well, thank you.
Marc:and he says uh where are you going i'm like oh i'm going over to this publishing house it's like great that's great you know and he's it's just i'm just so he said he's so happy for me i'm like well you know i'm just trying not to fuck it up and he goes you will you will you're gonna fuck it up and i'm like am i saying oh definitely you're gonna you're gonna fuck it up but the great thing is we'll all be there we'll all be there with you when you fuck it up and it'll be great it'll be great and i'm like i don't i don't know if that's i don't know if that's true but uh
Marc:But I like that he didn't change his tone and there was the same type of confidence and excitement over him in his mind knowing that I will definitely fuck it up somehow, but it's going to be great because we're all going to be hanging out and moving through that together.
Marc:I can't completely say he's wrong, but I feel all right.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:So look, I got Kim Gordon.
Marc:I don't usually do this, but I did read most of her book, and I went back and listened to many Sonic Youth records, some I'd never heard before.
Marc:And I just wanted to be prepared for a lot of reasons, because...
Marc:I don't know that she's necessarily an easy interview.
Marc:The woman I'm dating is a huge fan of hers, and Kim took her picture with her, and I think it was one of the highlights of her life.
Marc:But let's listen now to my talk with Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth.
Marc:Her book is Girl in a Band, and it's out now.
Music
Guest:We have a lot of guitars there.
Marc:I have a few.
Marc:I'm not, you know, I'm just a, I don't know if I'm amateur, but I don't play with anybody.
Marc:That was a gift.
Marc:That's one of the Jay Mask is Squires.
Guest:I recognize that.
Guest:I have one of those.
Marc:You do?
Marc:But Jay probably gave you yours.
Guest:For my birthday.
Marc:He's been here.
Marc:He was here.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I heard his interview.
Guest:I was impressed.
Guest:It was impressive.
Guest:Tough, right?
Guest:You did a good job.
Guest:It took a while.
Guest:It was awesome.
Marc:It wasn't until he started talking about his dad and skiing and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Then all of a sudden it was like, oh, thank God.
Marc:He's going to be chatty.
Marc:He is.
Marc:Now that I've seen him a couple different places, now it's okay.
Marc:So what video were you shooting?
Yeah.
Guest:It's for this Peaches song called Close Up that I... Last year when I was here, or last summer, they invited me to come over and lay something down, which I did.
Marc:How'd you get involved with it?
Guest:Well, I've known her...
Guest:Over the years.
Guest:And then also this friend of mine, this kid, Vice Cooler.
Guest:I think of him as a kid because I met him, he and his brother when they were 15, and this band XRXBX.
Guest:They were touring around as super young teenagers.
Guest:It was a super fast, super fast hardcore band.
Guest:I don't know, I've just kind of seen him grow up over the years, and then suddenly he was involved with Peaches producing a record.
Marc:And they want you to be in the video?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, they wanted me to, yeah, once I did the song, then I have to be in the video.
Marc:You have to.
Marc:What was your part in the song?
Guest:I hesitate to use the word hook, but when I went in there, it was just kind of like a minimal hip-hop track, and I just put something down, and then Peaches built a rap around it, and then they probably added other stuff.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was relieved that you grew up in L.A.
Marc:because people come up here and they don't know where they are or have any sense of what it is.
Marc:I read most of your book, which I don't usually do, but I was nervous to talk to you.
Marc:Why?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I just got it in my head that I didn't know enough about anything.
Marc:Not just you, but when I look at where you come from and what your interests are and the different worlds you were involved in, I was like, I'm not up to speed.
Marc:So then I'm Googling Glenn Branca and I'm seeing him for the first time because of you.
Marc:Because I wanted to do... It was kind of funny.
Marc:I don't know if ironic is the right word, but I had to sit through a Michelob Ultra commercial before I watched Glenn Branca do some kind of guitar solo.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I was like, this is exactly what was supposed to not happen.
Marc:This was the fight.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I watched the, when you sang the induction of Nirvana, you sang one of the songs, Aneurysm, right?
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And I remember watching that when it was on live and like being pretty broken up about it.
Marc:And then like literally emotionally shattered.
Marc:And I watched it again this morning and I cried again.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:What is that about?
Marc:What was going on that day?
Oh.
Guest:It was very touching.
Guest:I mean, it was a very emotional... Actually, the sound check was really difficult, because suddenly they had these huge images of Kurt's face up on the screen, and it was a bit... It was kind of overwhelming.
Guest:But the whole night of the ceremony was so long and boring.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:By the time I got singing, it was like... You were just chomping at the bit.
Guest:Yeah, and I wasn't...
Guest:sad because I just wanted to do something you know so active and um I don't know I was just trying to um channel Kurt I mean I just to kind of see Chris and Dave after not seeing them and Pat and all these other people like we had shared a lot of the same crew or in common and right
Marc:manager and it was like a 90s reunion wow um but it was such an odd you know surreal place to be the rock and all these kind of elder establishment yeah enemies i would imagine from different points in your life enemies from punk rock yeah yeah having been in the business so long i have to assume that you walk into a room like that and you're like oh there's that fucker
Guest:Well, you know, not in a specific way, you know, just maybe there were some people I just didn't want to actually talk to who were, you know, would probably like, I don't know, hadn't seen since like the band broke up and broke up.
Guest:So there were some people I was avoiding.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:Just out of discomfort.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah it's horrible when you kind of want to you know give you their sympathy but then draw it out you know they want to draw the sadness into yeah into the open yeah they can't help it and it was such an emotional day anyway so um and how fresh was the breakup at that point pretty fresh
Guest:I only recently got divorced a couple months ago.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:It was like a couple years, two and a half years.
Marc:It's horrendous still though, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's an ongoing process that people suddenly think it happens.
Guest:Like as soon as they hear you're separated and then it's over.
Guest:And then who are you dating or something?
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:How are you bouncing back?
Marc:It's going to take like five years, ten years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's horrendous.
Marc:I've been divorced twice.
Marc:It's just the heartbreak is the worst.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like there's nothing you can do to make it go away.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:Yeah, no, I mean.
Marc:Happy Valentine's Day, by the way.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I love that we're having this interview on Valentine's Day.
Guest:We discuss dating.
Guest:A couple of broken hearted people.
Marc:Dating other, you know, like experiences.
Marc:Are you?
Marc:Are you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Is that right?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think I recently maybe broke up with somebody or they broke up with me.
Marc:Not sure?
Marc:It's unclear?
Guest:Well...
Guest:Yeah, it's unclear.
Guest:It's not resolved.
Guest:We're grown people.
Guest:Maybe I'm going to see them today.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:I'm glad.
Marc:I'm dating a painter that's a huge fan of yours to the point where I was like, maybe she should come in here.
Marc:Who is it?
Marc:Her name is Sarah Kane.
Marc:She's an abstract painter.
Marc:And I've just recently been sort of back in that world and trying to understand it.
Marc:Because I feel like I avoided it for so long.
Marc:I was a comedian, but when I was in college, I wanted to be an artist, but I didn't have what it took.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did some photographs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But in your book, you're very candid about, certainly about the breakup, but also about like how...
Marc:The people that kind of built the way you saw the world.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And a lot of men who had a profound influence on how you see the world.
Marc:And starting, I guess, with your brother was the one you really kind of talked about a lot.
Marc:And did you see him when you come out here?
Guest:Yeah, some yesterday.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:You know, it's always never lasts that long.
Yeah.
Guest:It was fine.
Guest:It's always good to just see him and see that he's doing the same, which is not always a fine.
Marc:He's properly medicated and level.
Guest:No, I mean, he was reciting this Dylan song, but he said he wrote it.
Guest:But he remembers all the words.
Guest:He has an incredible memory for...
Marc:for things like that well there is sort of like a brilliance to schizophrenia right i think so i mean how did did when you guys were going up you no one really knew that was what was wrong with him it doesn't kick in no yeah he it didn't really kick in till like his early 20s i guess
Marc:That's about the time, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I think he was taking a lot of acid and... Exacerbated.
Guest:There were a lot of people taking a lot of acid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's hard to figure out who was... Tripping and sick?
Guest:On which side of crazy or... Right.
Guest:Who was eccentric or... He was always an eccentric kid and...
Marc:What was your relationship when you were kids?
Guest:I looked up to him, and he teased me more so.
Guest:I mean, every older brother, I'm sure, teases their sister.
Guest:But I was super sensitive, and he was really overly critical.
Guest:And it wasn't a good combination.
Marc:And you think that because that was a primary relationship, it kind of scarred you for life?
Guest:Well, it made me...
Guest:Just kind of want to hide my feelings.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I cried really easily.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and we had physical fights, too.
Guest:But, I mean, when we were teenagers, we were friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, we smoked pot together and stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was he ahead of you in terms of, like, what he liked?
Marc:Like, did that have an influence on you?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, he read, you know, Nietzsche and Sartre and kind of turned me on to all these.
Guest:And he got it?
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I thought he had it.
Guest:But he was also really into Shakespeare and literature.
Guest:He wrote poetry.
Marc:So he was like a unique guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Is your mom still alive?
Guest:No, both my parents are.
Guest:My mom died in 2002 and my dad in 98.
Marc:And your dad was a sociologist?
Guest:Yeah, in education at UCLA.
Yeah.
Marc:But I see this is the problem with me reading the book because now I know things.
Marc:And I'm going to say it that way.
Marc:No, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
Marc:I'm sitting here telling you what your story is.
Marc:Better you than I have to do it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Okay, I could just recite it all.
Marc:I'll just go, yes.
Marc:I know a lot about you.
Marc:But I thought it was kind of fascinating that your father was the first to sort of catalog these high school groups of
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, he did a social study as his thesis.
Guest:Yeah, it was squares and socials and... Jocks.
Guest:Jocks.
Marc:But there was no stoners.
Guest:No, and then when my brother was in junior high, he did his own, and then it was like surfers and essays and...
Marc:But your old man was the guy who figured, like, sort of broke it down, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's, like, one of the most important sort of distinguishing things in our lives, is to be able to walk through a high school and go, like, those are the stoners, those are the geeks, and it really exists.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was probably this obvious thing, or I don't know, like, you know, that sometimes people don't say the obvious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In your book, though, the one thing I noticed is that there's no mention of really learning how to play guitar.
Guest:There's a reason for that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because I didn't.
Guest:No, you know, I was talking to, actually, I did an interview.
Guest:Sally Timms from the Mekons interviewed me.
Yeah.
Guest:She'd been reading Viv Albertine's book and just talking about how punk rock was this thing that suddenly ignited a whole bunch of activity and sent one in a direction that you wouldn't necessarily have gone.
Guest:And, I mean, when I...
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I didn't notice until after I read most of the book that usually when you read a musician or a band's book, there's that relationship that's built with an instrument at some point.
Marc:And it just wasn't... It was like, nope.
Marc:It just sort of happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think that... I feel stupid that I haven't read Viv's book, but I think she talks about how as girls in punk rock, they had a way different relationship to music and how they learned to play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think a lot of boys learn to play in their bedrooms listening to records.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or from other dudes.
Guest:Or from other dudes, yeah.
Marc:Show me that thing.
Guest:Like, that's a nice lick.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Wait, do that again?
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Is that it?
Marc:A lot of that.
Marc:But you knew you wanted to be an artist, and now have you come back around to visual arts?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, since 2003, I've been pretty much... Painting?
Marc:Painting?
Guest:kind of doing installations or conceptually based painting but like was that the plan from early on because i mean you spend a lot of time like there's a lot of talk of dance uh-huh well i did also want to be a dancer is it when i was a teenager but my mother sort of discouraged that why
Guest:She just said it's a tough life, which is true.
Guest:It is.
Marc:Of any of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think dancers have it the hardest.
Marc:Very specific.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm also not into anything really conventional, so...
Guest:Like, the music I was drawn to was not conventional music.
Marc:But even early on?
Marc:I mean, you talk like... Well, no, yeah.
Guest:I mean, the records I listened to growing up was.
Guest:But, I mean, when I went to... As far as when I was in New York and I first saw No Wave bands, I just thought, wow, that's amazing.
Guest:And I think I can do that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But when did that start to break apart?
Guest:It was because it was so much free.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When did that start to break apart, though?
Marc:Like, I mean, in your mind, like, I know...
Marc:From the book, I just can't even imagine what it was like to grow up in L.A.
Marc:in the 60s.
Marc:It must have been amazing.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:I mean, it was, I guess.
Guest:It was definitely less crowded.
Marc:Well, to know that many people that might have met Charles Manson, it must have been a much more intimate landscape.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was odd.
Guest:I didn't really like living here, or I wasn't really that.
Guest:It was this kind of existential nausea of the sun shining the same every day.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you seem to have found some beauty in it as time went on.
Guest:Yeah, I know, definitely.
Guest:I mean, it's my favorite place to look at things visually, how the idea of self-expression, it becomes how you customize everything from your house to your car to...
Marc:Right.
Marc:Hot rod culture, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, you know, it's all so kind of visually interesting.
Marc:And it was sort of fascinating to me that there's these people in your lives that are big people and that a lot of us all know that sort of kind of resurface in your life later.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, it's very odd to me, but I guess it's really not that odd that Danny Elfman and you went to school together and that you had this relationship.
Marc:But he's his own thing, too.
Marc:And you guys got very close when you were in high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you still talk to him?
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:I mean, I've run into him a couple times and a friend of mine plays volleyball or something in his house once a week.
Marc:He's got a game of some kind going on.
Marc:How did he factor into your whole sort of like the way you saw yourself at that time or how was he sort of pivotal?
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He was really kind of the first real boyfriend where we actually talked.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And he was pretty supportive for a while.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He just sort of believed that I would always be an artist or I could be successful.
Marc:Did you think he was talented then?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he was very talented.
Guest:He was a totally untrained, talented person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I didn't wear... Suddenly, he was doing music, and it started with Oingo Boingo as a street theater.
Guest:He actually did it on the street?
Guest:Yeah, they had kind of like a marching kind of band.
Guest:His older brother, and he was married to this beautiful French woman.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Marie, and they'd been in the Magic Circus together in Paris.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and that's where it started yeah it was kind of like uh they did like old jazz and um saint louis blues and all this kind of wore costumes it was more like theatrical in a circus way it wasn't new it wasn't new wave was new way was that even is it happening yet new way no it wasn't but um but was it crazy here like in the sick like like what in 69 you were like what 16 or 15 yeah and it was just and then the 70s just got all dark and weird yeah 69 was a weird year
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do much drugs?
Guest:I did some acid, but I didn't do like tons.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I mostly like smoked pot, I guess.
Marc:Did you ever go up to San Francisco much?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I used to go up there when I was 15.
Guest:There was a flight you could take for like $10, the last flight.
Guest:And I stayed with friends of my parents.
Guest:I could go to the Fillmore, Avalon Ballroom.
Guest:I saw Louis Grape, Jefferson Airplane.
Marc:Yeah, at the original Fillmore.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you like those bands?
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:So you liked all that?
Marc:You liked the hip music?
Guest:Yeah, I was totally into that.
Guest:I had those records.
Marc:When you knew you were going to be an artist, if this idea set in, was it because of the trip to New York or when you went to art school in Toronto?
Marc:When was there a moment where you're like, this is... Because it's such... I started to think about it myself.
Marc:It's such an insulated, unique life.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That has its own language and its own people.
Marc:And that was one of the insecurities I had about talking to you.
Marc:It's like, you know, I know a lot of artists, but I don't know.
Marc:Like, this is a very specific bunch that you ran with.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it wasn't really a music thing.
Guest:No.
Marc:Uh-uh.
Marc:And until you made it one.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:So when you were at York University, was that where you started to sort of make decisions around music?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I mean, we had this band, but it wasn't serious.
Guest:We made it up for our media class.
Guest:And we were just bored, so we just did that.
Yeah.
Guest:But I guess it gave me a taste for performing.
Guest:But I still, when I moved to New York, it was really to be a visual artist.
Guest:And then when I met Dan Graham.
Marc:Yeah, tell me about that guy.
Guest:He asked me.
Guest:He's a pretty eccentric artist.
Marc:He's a sculptor?
Guest:He's a conceptual artist who now he makes a lot of pavilions that are, you know, he's interested in architecture and they have materials like two-way glass.
Guest:He's really into voyeurism, actually, and things like that.
Guest:Your relationship with him was long, right?
Guest:I mean, you...
Guest:Yeah, well, he lived upstairs for me.
Marc:So he sort of was your guide, your portal.
Guest:Kind of, yeah.
Marc:When you got to New York.
Marc:But you met him in California, right?
Guest:I met him, yeah, at CalArts at a lecture.
Marc:And your parents were kind of hipsters, weren't they?
Guest:They weren't conventional.
Guest:They were academics.
Guest:They had friends who were more bohemian.
Guest:They were more into security, I guess.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, coming out of the Depression and...
Marc:But they were still within the college environment.
Guest:Yeah, and they were super supportive of creative endeavors and that sort of thing.
Marc:But it took them a long time to realize your brother was in trouble.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because probably they thought, well, maybe he's just odd.
Guest:Yeah, and they just, from their generation, they didn't believe in psychiatry.
Guest:It was like if you had a problem, you just had to deal with it yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you have any of that in you?
Guest:I mean, only in the last three years did I go into therapy.
Guest:So, yeah, you do.
Yeah.
Guest:But I also realize I go around thinking of myself as this really traditional sort of middle class grounded person.
Guest:And I am a grounded person, but that's not my life, really, or what I do is, I guess, more bohemian.
Guest:You've always felt that?
Guest:I realize that I so carry this idea of myself and that...
Guest:Maybe also when, you know, having a daughter, I wanted to almost overcompensate and have this really stable environment that was almost so square, you know, in the house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In a certain way.
Guest:But wasn't.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just, I realized, why do I think of myself like that?
Guest:I'm actually not like that at all.
Guest:But I have that in me, you know.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because that's where I came from.
Marc:Did that happen really sort of, it must have just happened after you had the baby, right?
Yeah.
Guest:I think I always, you know, when I moved to New York, I was always like, God, I'm just so... Conventional?
Guest:You know, middle class.
Guest:I was just so fucking like... Really?
Guest:I'm never going to be punk rock.
Marc:But you're so punk rock.
Marc:I mean, I think for a whole generation of people, you're like it.
Marc:You're better than punk rock.
Guest:But my whole thing was like...
Guest:Um, it's good just to be yourself.
Guest:You know, it's like, why?
Guest:I'm not going to make some persona like Susie Sue or Lydia.
Guest:You know, that's not who I am.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like, I'm not goth girl.
Guest:But you had to make decisions like that and you seem to come up with your own thing.
Guest:Yeah, just, but I think that was part of the, you know, the hardcore movement was really just about being more, you know, like yourself in a way, you know?
Marc:So when you first get to New York, it's what, 1980, 81?
Guest:Yeah, 1980.
Marc:And you're living down the Lower East Side.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And I moved there in 89, and it was just starting to sort of clean up or whatever the hell that was.
Marc:There was still a lot of dope around and stuff.
Marc:But I imagine at that time, it must have been insane.
Marc:It's just chaos everywhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it was very, you know, downtown was a lot of, it was kind of deserted.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Tribeca totally.
Guest:And Soho, you know, it was dirty and, you know, the money, the city was pretty bankrupt.
Marc:And what was your plan when you got there?
Guest:I don't know, just to kind of see shows and make connections with people.
Guest:maybe try and find a gallery, but I was pretty intimidated by that.
Marc:What was your medium at that time?
Guest:My medium was more conceptual.
Guest:In fact, I started doing kind of interventions in people's apartments.
Guest:Like a kind of psychological interior designer.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, like altering something physically and then making a piece of art that sort of reflected something about the person.
Marc:Oh, give me an example.
Guest:I asked Dan if I could do something in his apartment.
Guest:Dan Graham?
Guest:Yeah, which was a typical railroad apartment, bathtub in the kitchen.
Guest:And so he didn't cook at all.
Guest:So I got rid of his stove.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I put this rubber Pirelli tile down on the floor that he had always admired that was inside bank foyers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, kind of like Italian kind of flooring.
Guest:And then I did a watercolor of Debbie Harry from Blondie because he was a huge fan.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:On a piece of typewriter paper or something.
Yeah.
Guest:Anyway, so that's what, and then I wrote about it and got it published in a magazine.
Marc:And that was the piece?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you did several of those?
Guest:I did a few of them.
Guest:I didn't do that many.
Marc:So the arc of it was you go into somebody's environment, you sort of take or leave something of their life and make some alterations and then write about it in an art magazine.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But how do you really get a gallery with that?
Yeah.
Guest:You don't?
Guest:It was just kind of an alternative to that.
Guest:I mean, eventually, I mean, I had a show at this alternative space.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:White Columns, which coincidentally I had a survey show there a year ago last fall.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It was in a different location.
Guest:Full circle.
Guest:Full circle, yeah.
Marc:It's interesting to me that... Because I went to some of those shows when I was younger.
Marc:I know what installations are.
Marc:I know the woman I'm with now does installations.
Marc:But I always wondered, like... And there was a moment there where Dan Graham tells you not to get locked into a gallery, into that arc of a painter, because there's nowhere else to go from there.
Marc:That you want to create a conversation, some sort of discourse with the culture.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was your idea of art outside of just being young and understanding the context of the world you were working in?
Marc:What did you want to do?
Marc:What did you think the purpose of it was?
Guest:well kind of it's sort of an intellectual conversation right um with objet or not but i don't know i think it's um just you know something that reflects something about the culture in a way but also has a whole dialogue with
Marc:kind of the history of art as an object and you know and just all the different sides of it so yeah it's completely self-referential and and and constant that it's almost like it's like philosophy it keeps building on itself yeah it's a language right yeah until uh until somebody keeps you just got to keep blowing it up right yeah
Marc:That's the idea.
Marc:Like waiting for the new guy to blow up the art thing.
Marc:But then you talk a lot about the 80s and just how you couldn't differentiate it between that art had sort of, for art's sake, had died and that the business world had co-opted it.
Guest:Well, I mean, you know, I think Wall Street was booming and there's a generation of artists and they said, well, we're not doing that.
Guest:You know, we're going to make it up ourselves, our own way.
Guest:And they went back to sort of object making and kind of fetishized objects.
Guest:And then suddenly, like, painting and objects were like, that's what everyone was doing of the new generation.
Guest:They called it picture generation.
Marc:So when he started writing about...
Marc:um music and finding your way into music i mean you had to reckon with a lot of like you know big sort of dude personalities where you sort of like i and i know that you you wrote specifically about rock guys didn't you for a little while
Marc:And somehow or another that helped you enter that world?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Maybe I was looking for a better relationship with a brother type.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I remember as a little girl looking at my dad's books, like something called Men at Work.
Guest:Like, what is that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I just wrote some article about...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was always trying to write kind of faux intellectual things, make some ridiculous premise and then try and prove it.
Guest:So it was a joke?
Guest:One was kind of a... Yeah.
Guest:About male bonding.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But those were satires?
Marc:They weren't real criticisms?
Guest:Well, it wasn't like they were... They were real criticisms, but it was... I don't know.
Guest:What's the most extreme thing I can write that's...
Guest:Still considered intellectual or something.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Maybe I'm not intellectual, but I kind of was playing around with that.
Guest:You didn't feel like you were intellectual?
Guest:So I thought I'd write about male sexuality.
Marc:As a woman?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, did that make waves?
Marc:Did you get some attention for those writings?
No.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:I mean, it was definitely the only thing I really did more publicly before art making.
Marc:It's so funny to me that you met Larry Gagosian, is that how you say his last name, on the street in Westwood?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When you were a kid almost?
Guest:Well, I was like 18 or 19.
Marc:And he was selling garbage prints?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I worked for him framing hundreds of those.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hundreds.
Guest:It's just so flukish, isn't it?
Guest:I'm not worried.
Guest:You can't make this stuff up.
Marc:Right, and then he turns out to be the biggest art dealer in the world?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And then you work for him again?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that was your in in New York?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:And, of course, he remembered you, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I worked more for Anina, his partner in the non-commercial space.
Guest:But, yeah, and then I eventually had a show with him last spring or whenever it was.
Marc:Recently.
Marc:What was in that show?
Yeah.
Guest:It was a series of paintings using a wooden wreath as a mask, a masking device, and then spray painted.
Guest:Oh, nice.
Guest:So then you take it off, and then you have this sort of ghost image of the wreath.
Guest:And I wanted to find something that was pretty suburban, or like you could get a Home Depot and then kind of transform into this...
Guest:more um or not maybe they do look tacky but I I uh had a show in this Schindler house up on top of Mulholland where I made the paintings in the basement and I was into the idea of staging it was like home like like house porn shows and yeah how like real estate agents do it yeah yeah and um so I was kind of
Guest:You know, into that.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And it came out good?
Guest:Yeah, it was super fun.
Marc:So, when you first saw the No Wave bands, who was the first one you saw?
Marc:When did that moment happen?
Marc:Where did it happen where you're like, oh shit, this is it?
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:It might have been at some place called Franklin Furnace or...
Guest:I really can't remember who it was.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:It was... Because I just missed all that.
Marc:So it was like the very idea of them was to not be identifiable as a movement or as a sound.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I don't think people really thought about it, but...
Guest:There was a compilation that was put out that someone brought Brian Eno to this artist space event where all these bands were playing.
Guest:And he ended up kind of cherry picking certain bands to be on this record.
Guest:And then it kind of got other people's noses out of joint and sort of broke up the community spirit of what little there was.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:um and then other people when i got to new york pretty much most of it was over i saw mars i saw dna was suicide still around suicide was still around that was amazing that was one of the first shows i saw it was incredible yeah um well like i could like i just got into him fairly recently because i'm always late to the party what was it about that guy
Guest:He was just scary.
Guest:He'd go out into the audience and just go right up to you.
Guest:It was just chilling.
Guest:It was so minimal.
Guest:He was haunting.
Guest:Yeah, he was haunting.
Marc:Yeah, when I watched him, I was like, oh, shit.
Guest:I just never seen anything like that.
Marc:And you saw it live.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it was really... Oh, yeah.
Marc:And at that time, all that stuff...
Marc:So what provoked you to get started with it?
Guest:Well, Dan had this... Dan.
Guest:Graham had this performance piece where he would have a mirror behind him, and then he would look out into the audience and describe the audience, and then he would turn around and describe...
Guest:himself with the audience behind him and his gestures and so he wanted to do that with an all-girl band because he was writing articles about all-girl bands and the slits and um he asked me if I wanted to make up a band for this piece and so and I'm he introduced me to this girl Miranda who was a bass player and this other girl Christine Hahn who played drums with uh
Guest:glenn bronca's band at the time the static so we uh and i played guitar so we wrote these songs um and took lyrics i took lyrics from uh women's magazines like cosmopolitan girl they had a whole text on the back like i'm a cosmopolitan girl and yeah blah blah blah so it was almost like a talking blues thing right and you know another one was just ad copy about separates
Guest:yeah just softball separates and lipstick anyway so we we um made some songs and we did this performance we were supposed to after a song have some kind of interaction with the audience yeah but we didn't really know exactly what he wanted us to do and
Guest:uh we were also so nervous like um i think christine just got up during her turn and went to the bathroom and came back yeah yeah and he was kind of like pissed like he didn't think it was successful and but i kind of thought it was like people nobody knew what was going on right it's kind of i think just making people taking him out of a
Guest:conventional audience performer situation is always sort of interesting and i think that's what people were also drawn to about kurt because like he just took it way far right yeah yeah and same with iggy yeah yes of course yeah yeah yeah he was definitely amazing
Marc:So that's what you felt that first time.
Marc:It's interesting that, you know, it was a manufactured sort of event by this dude.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:Yeah, who just had this big idea.
Guest:Yeah, and then we didn't do what, you know, it was kind of manipulative.
Guest:We didn't do, you know, what we're supposed to do.
Marc:Was he a lecce guy?
Guest:No.
Marc:No, that's good.
Marc:You just had some big ideas?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think he had a, yeah, he had some big ideas, but.
Guest:No, I mean, you know, it was kind of interesting what he was trying to do.
Guest:I think he was trying to activate a woman's, you know, instead of a woman traditionally being in a passive position where people project stuff onto them.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:that we would be active in some way.
Guest:Although we were already playing.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But something about crossing back into that barrier.
Guest:I think it's really similar to maybe being a stand-up comic in a certain way.
Marc:A stand-up.
Marc:It's a very weird thing because I know in the book there was a little piece about Chappelle and that event.
Marc:The space...
Marc:that you can choose to occupy you know as an artist of any kind it really is it's up to you right and you can sit in it in whatever discomfort you want for however long you want to do it sometimes i resent the audience sometimes i resent that they're expecting something from me sometimes uh you know i feel like oh we're all great we're all one mind and then other times you want to make them pay for something
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you have those feelings?
Guest:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Guest:I think it's similar to, you know, yeah.
Marc:But that's just me.
Marc:Some guys just go tell jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's an easy way to do things.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But it's not your way, right?
Marc:It's not my way.
Marc:I mean, there seems to be an almost active resentment of the easy way to do anything.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:Do you have that still?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, I like doing this improv duo I have with Bill Nace.
Guest:It's just two guitars and vocals.
Guest:It's really fun, but it's scary because we go out and we don't really have anything planned.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We make it up every night, and yet we know how each other plays, so it seems like a band.
Marc:Where do you do that at?
Guest:Well, we just did three shows here, one at the Getty, one at the Echo, and one in Orange County.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:We went to Australia.
Guest:We were in a couple festivals.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we've done touring in Europe, and we put a record out last fall, oh, a year ago, last fall in Matador.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:That was really surprisingly well received.
Marc:What's it called?
Guest:It's called Coming Apart.
Okay.
Guest:Good.
Guest:We play with film behind us in slow motion.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's so slow that it kind of implies there's a narrative of some kind, but you don't really, it doesn't ever evolve into anything.
Marc:When you started playing with the band, with the original Sonic Youth, well, you met, Thurston was in another band?
Guest:Yeah, he was in a band called The Coachmen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That my friend Miranda took me to see.
Marc:Were they a good band?
Yeah.
Guest:They were okay.
Guest:They had the jankly guitar thing.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of more New Wave-ish, sort of.
Marc:Were you anti-New Wave?
Marc:RISD Rock.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:RISD Rock.
Marc:Oh, is that what they called it?
Marc:RISD Rock?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that what Talking Heads?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:That school?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you like any of those guys?
Marc:Did you like Verlaine or any of them?
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Byrne, not so much?
Guest:Early Talking Heads, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So were they around?
Guest:No, they weren't.
Guest:I mean, they were famous by then.
Marc:By the time you got there?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:I mean, they were since all those bands in the late 70s.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:From Connecticut.
Marc:He's a Connecticut kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's going to take the train into the city or whatever.
Marc:So you meet him at that show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was the last show of his band, actually.
Marc:That you saw?
Guest:That was their last show.
Guest:It was just ending.
Guest:And it wasn't me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You had nothing to do with it.
Guest:And then he was also, he was playing with this girl, Miranda.
Guest:I mean, Anda Marinus, who was Vito Aconti's girlfriend at the time.
Guest:so i started playing with those with them yeah and um after thirst and i sort of got together and we had a she was a keyboard player and we had a series of different drummers and changed our names and finally arrived at this name sonic youth and it was kind of like then we sort of realized we didn't really want to play with a keyboard player anymore and we just sort of parted ways from her and met lee right you know we knew lee he was around and
Guest:and thurston put on this festival at white columns the noise fest because there's nowhere to play for bands so it became like a 10 day long bands just kept asking to play specific kinds of bands or any it was really kind of a wide range you know it was i mean people downtown it wasn't um so punk was over kind of yeah punk was definitely over and cbgb's was kind of starting to be over well
Guest:Well, CB's was still going, but Hurrah's had closed, and I think Tier 3 had closed.
Marc:I interviewed Thurston once, and it was embarrassing.
Marc:It was when I hosted an evening show here.
Marc:I was trying to talk about noise bands, but I didn't know any noise bands.
Marc:I knew none.
Guest:Well, it was weird.
Guest:I mean, that was a term, actually that was a derogatory term at that time.
Guest:Like the owner of Hurrah said, well, all these bands just sound like noise.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So no one really liked that term.
Guest:So it's just that...
Guest:We sort of took it as this thing, but it was definitely derogatory.
Marc:So it wasn't a real movement?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:You know, there was like John Zorn and the improv thing going on.
Marc:Where were they at?
Marc:Knitting factory, guys?
Guest:It was pre-knitting factory.
Marc:Zorn's out there, man.
Marc:That's pretty wild shit, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know, he comes out of new music composition and jazz.
Marc:But wasn't that like kind of heady?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but we weren't really, like, at that time, there was no real clear movement.
Guest:There was, like, the Swans and us and Live Skull, and there just didn't feel like we didn't fit in.
Marc:Right, with anybody.
Guest:Yeah, and there was, like, the Hoboken pop scene with the individuals and the bongos, and they were, like, the ones that were popular.
Marc:It's kind of this middle zone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You guys kind of owned it.
Marc:But who did you tour with first?
Guest:Well, we just toured with ourselves.
Guest:I mean, we brought along Dinosaur Jr.
Guest:when they were on one tour.
Guest:They were touring in a station wagon.
Guest:They were really young.
Marc:And they opened for you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the tours where you opened for larger acts didn't happen until later.
Guest:No, we didn't.
Guest:That was nothing we were interested in at all.
Marc:At the beginning.
Guest:Well, we were never interested in it, except...
Guest:We were happy to do it when Neil asked us to do it, of course.
Guest:But we were never really into that.
Marc:What were you into?
Marc:What was the idea?
Guest:It was really baby steps.
Guest:Getting a gig at CBGB, then making a record, then going on tour.
Marc:And how did you evolve the sound?
Marc:I mean, you guys would just sit there and work it out because there's the dissonant sound and the guitar is tuned weird.
Marc:And then there's some droning going on.
Marc:I mean, how did you know when you clicked it, when it was happening?
Guest:um good question yeah you know i don't know well we like things that were contrasted like a melody line and then dynamics you know things that got loud things that got soft and i don't know it was like we just kind of really played it kind of formed it organically as the arrangements
Marc:Because it's interesting, like, it's a completely definable sound that you guys repeated, you know, that you have, like, Sonic Youth sounds like Sonic Youth and no one really sounds like you.
Marc:So, you know, it must have felt, there must have been a groove achieved that kept kind of growing.
Marc:You knew when you hit it, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Marc:What was that Neil Young tour?
Marc:When was that?
Marc:What album had come up?
Guest:That must have been after Goo, our first major label debut.
Marc:It's wild to me that real bands, people that are in it for the long haul and have the defined sound, you can hear it in the earliest music.
Marc:Do you ever listen to that stuff?
No.
Marc:sometimes you know it's weird sometimes i'll walk into a store or someplace and i'll hear something i'll go god that sounds so familiar i go shit i put the fucking mc5 on when when wayne kramer came over like he was walking up the driveway and they've only got three records out and he's playing and i'm like you recognize that he's like i don't
Guest:he did he did not could did not know and he walked in he didn't know that's funny i don't know like i definitely can hear a tuning you know i can tell it's us because of the yeah it's very it's a specific dissonance right yeah it's just some you know not that other people don't use different tunings in their guitars but something about the uh the tone and yeah
Marc:And when you, well, I mean, I know that obviously what's happened with you and Thurston has happened, but when it was good, you guys loved playing, right?
Marc:I mean, and Lee, too.
Marc:That drummer, too.
Marc:Steve.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a great drummer.
Marc:Great drummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you all got along for the most part?
Guest:For the most part.
Guest:You know, I mean, there's always little band dynamics.
Guest:But, you know, the older we got, I think we, I thought we were learning how to get along better.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you have any idea?
Guest:It's really hard when you're a democracy and then you're all trying to mix a record.
Guest:I think when we found people that we all felt good working with, that was much better.
Marc:You're very candid about the dissolving of the relationship in the book.
Marc:And I wrote a book about my divorce, and it's very cathartic to do that.
Marc:And it feels good.
Marc:But when you write that stuff, when you talk about the specifics of it,
Marc:Do you do it to purge yourself or to help others or it's just part of your story?
Marc:To help others.
Guest:I didn't think, well, for me, it's writing as it's partly, I can't think unless I'm writing or I can't figure out how I'm feeling about something.
Guest:And when something like that happens to you that's so kind of spins you off and you start looking back at your whole life like how did I get to where I am and I couldn't really figure out where I am now unless I did and you know I tried to be as minimal about it as I could.
Marc:When I went through it, you were very diplomatic about your parents.
Marc:You didn't really completely throw anybody under the bus.
Marc:It's hard not to.
Marc:When I wrote my book, my father went right under the bus.
Yeah.
Marc:And I'm older than you, more mature.
Marc:Is that it?
Marc:He's still around and I caught a lot of shit about it.
Marc:I don't know how my ex feels about it, but I tried to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's very hard because.
Guest:Well, I'm sure that some people will be bummed out about my book, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Here's what this thing you said.
Marc:I wonder whether you can truly love or be loved back by someone who hides who they are.
Marc:It's made me question my whole life and all my other relationships.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That kind of blew my mind.
Marc:I highlighted it.
Marc:Look at that shit.
Marc:Shit is highlighted, Kim.
Marc:Then that kind of spun me out because then I'm thinking about art and about what you're really digging it for and is it some sort of something that has to happen in the present that's completely different and mind-blowing or is it some kind of truth you're looking for?
Guest:And then when you come up with something like that... Isn't that what it does when you lose your identity?
Guest:Like your identity is so wrapped up with another person and that person is also part of your work and your income and your everything.
Marc:Yeah, that's a unique situation, yeah.
Guest:So it just...
Guest:Like, obviously, no matter what someone does, it is two people who create a situation.
Guest:So, you know, I just sort of wanted to examine myself and see how I contributed or didn't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you were wary to use words like codependent and narcissist.
Uh-huh.
Guest:Well, I don't know, they seem so therapy talk, but... Right.
Guest:I don't know, you know, like it's like someone can be a narcissist or have, you know, we're all somewhere on the spectrum of that.
Guest:But then there is like something like narcissist disorder or... Right, there's a difference between having narcissistic... Or like a toxic borderline.
Marc:Ooh, scary stuff, that is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, but, you know, beyond that, like, it's true.
Guest:You really can't help who you fall in love with if you believe you're in love or, you know, and people do change and whether they change because they've repressed a big part of who they are or.
Guest:And I have to say, I'm sure.
Guest:I was stuck in the whole thing, too.
Guest:It's kind of brought me maybe free and allowed me to basically get back to life.
Guest:Where I feel like I should, what I should be doing, you know, making art and things that are really inherent and authentic.
Guest:To you.
Guest:Primary to who I am and that I actually like put that on the back burner is kind of upsetting to me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:In retrospect.
Guest:Yeah, in retrospect.
Marc:I don't know what drives a band, but I guess the compulsion to just keep working is a lot of it, right?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And it's kind of like a machine.
Guest:It just keeps going.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he was like, I don't know, he's a little older than me.
Marc:I mean, it's so weird, I guess.
Marc:And I can understand what you were saying before about how...
Guest:you know feeling like middle class or or conventional is like it it isn't it's not an unusual tale right you know sure it's right it's so it's just it's just it's nothing special i mean it happens to so many people right it's how people fuck up yeah god damn it so yeah and i've known you know since then i've met you know several couple couples or friends whose marriages have completely fallen apart and um
Guest:And then they're reading my book, and they're just relating to it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's strange.
Marc:Well, it's such... And also, I think that the idea of how technology leaves all this... Like, that feeling that you had where...
Marc:it was almost like he was just dying to be caught.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Because I know that when my first marriage broke up and I was the bad guy, you're a coward and then you get caught.
Guest:Right, and then you're kind of relieved in a way or something.
Marc:Well, yeah, something, but then you kind of want your cake and you want to eat it too and you want to be a child.
Guest:Yeah, you want everything to be okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You don't want to be looked at as a bad person or...
Marc:It's horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, the heartbreak of it is just, like, I definitely related to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you think, outside of this writing, as you sort of, you know, take, reown yourself or whatever, are you going to, do you feel like some of this pain is informing?
Marc:Other than the performance I saw on the Rock and Roll Hall fan, which was devastating to me, do you feel that you're going to purge yourself even more with this stuff?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, right now I feel okay.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Good.
Guest:But, you know, obviously I've been so busy, so, you know, it's times when you're not busy that you can feel sad or...
Guest:But I've had so many amazing things happen to me since then, and I have so many great things going on, and I don't know.
Marc:It's pretty amazing to watch...
Marc:When I watched some of this stuff, because I was re-watching things of you guys playing and you covering Iggy songs, and then just these moments where you guys are all... There's something you wrote in the book about just dodging guitars.
Marc:You were in it, but then on the periphery, you just see guitars coming at you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Another thing that you talked about that I found compelling and I could relate to is this perpetual sense of not doing enough, of insecurity, of maybe feeling like a fraud of some kind artistically.
Marc:Do you still get that?
Guest:Well, I'm sure some people feel like I should just play music and not make art or something.
Guest:And some people think I should play conventional songs.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:People get weird ideas about you.
Marc:Could you ever play conventional songs?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, writing this book is probably the most conventional thing I've ever done.
Marc:And it's very straightforward.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I was reading some of your essays because I got hold of another book of the essays.
Marc:And it's different.
Marc:Like, this book is very kind of, like, close to the bone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, parts of it were really boring to write.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:just like having the nuts and bolts of talking about things that you feel like you've talked about in interviews or just can i just wikipedia what the raincoat sound like right or something yeah just put that in scope we have google yeah yeah yeah yeah um but you know i liked writing about la and early new york and you know certain things were fun to write about
Guest:and your daughter too i mean like that that bit where you watch her for the first time that got me choked up i just cry yeah how's she doing she's good she um she goes to the chicago art institute wow third year student and has a great boyfriend cool as a and she's known since high school but they they weren't together then but yeah and it worked out
Guest:Yeah, he's a really good musician, actually.
Marc:And she's going to go the music route?
Guest:No, she's an artist.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Painter, yeah.
Marc:Do you feel ecstatic about that?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I'm thrilled.
Guest:I mean, I love her.
Guest:She's so, like, one of, you know, my favorite people to hang out with.
Guest:She's so cool.
Marc:That's so sweet.
Marc:Well, look, I hope I did justice to our conversation.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's Valentine's Day.
Guest:I thought maybe... What?
Guest:We could trade dating experiences.
Marc:Okay, well, let's see.
Guest:Do you have any advice for me?
Guest:Somebody who's like...
Marc:Well, I'm dating this painter now, which is an all-new thing, because she's completely consumed like artists are in her art.
Marc:And I'm not used to that type of detachment.
Marc:I'm a little needy.
Marc:I'm not a good dater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't really know how to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I was married twice, and I don't know that, and certainly you've been in a certain type of limelight long enough to where it becomes very difficult to date when you're a public person.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Marc:And people know you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you have to almost look for these people that are going to pretend like they've never heard of you before or else date in your pool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It depends what you want.
Marc:All I know is that I've gotten very cynical about relationships and about love and about, you know, like I'm at this age, I'm 51, where I'm like, I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, I don't have to put up with anyone's shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that's sort of like.
Guest:That's a good attitude.
Yeah.
Marc:that's sort of where like where i'm kind of at it's like you know i don't you know nah yeah you got a lot of you know i got my own baggage i get that but you're like like why not just have fun if that's possible right what are we looking for at this point exactly like you're not looking for someone to start a whole life with i don't think so yeah you know what are you experiencing um
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Well, I was actually out with a friend who, this really good writer, and she, I'm going to kind of, not steal her idea, but just, she was talking about relationships and how she did a lot of dating when she moved out here and before she met her husband and
Guest:she said well it seems like there are two kinds of uh people or relationships like the first kind where you know they they want to zip you up in a suit with them yeah together and completely intermesh your lives right together yes super meshed right and the other kind where you kind of go in and out of each other's right lives and you have space right and um
Marc:i would definitely be more of the second leaning sure you know like i need a lot of space yeah mentally i that sounds very good to me but emotionally i don't know yeah like you know whatever is gurgling up in there in terms of needs or how that's going to use me as a puppet i don't know i'm not always quite clear that's the big challenge are you a virgo libra huh yeah almost a virgo you think that has a bearing on this
Guest:Possibly.
Marc:Well, because when you were talking about that... Maybe you're a rising science worker.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've got to look it up.
Marc:I've had charts done, but it gets a little overwhelming.
Marc:But when you talked about projecting a fantasy on people...
Marc:like that like that whole thing like you know there's some definitely you're definitely you know your wisdom's coming through it's good like that whole idea of like you're making somebody up to fit you know what you need and then it's only a matter of time before they disappoint you right that's a fucking problem
Guest:Yeah, that's a problem.
Marc:Yeah, I've been talking about this book.
Guest:Yeah, they do meet people who are like, you don't know why they like you.
Guest:Like, do they like you because... No idea.
Guest:I mean, it's all part of who you are anyway, what you do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Whether it's... Right.
Guest:So, of course they're going to like you because of what you do also.
Guest:That's like, it's not like...
Marc:It's kind of weird.
Marc:You kind of doubt it.
Guest:And then you, I guess, feel like once they get to know you that maybe... I'm saying you, but I mean, you know.
Marc:You, yeah.
Guest:The universal you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That they won't like you or something.
Marc:Or that... Why would they?
Guest:That's it.
Guest:So do you think love's an insane...
Marc:I don't... It's like there's... I don't know.
Marc:I've been taught over time and from bad experiences that what I experience as... What does love really mean to any one person?
Marc:There's this intensity that happens.
Marc:As you get older, you can't deny the craziness of the relationships.
Marc:And then I think that...
Marc:what's happened to me is that you you just live with this heartbreak it doesn't always it doesn't disappear it just sort of fades in intensity and and it just it becomes like this weird thing that just kind of percolates there and and i guess you can fall in love again but yeah after a certain point like how much drama how much bullshit you want to it's true but then all of a sudden you find yourself in crazy land yeah
Guest:but like it's good that you have a a child that's growing up nicely and you have that response but i don't have any of that i'm still a fucking yeah idiot yeah i mean she's um you know in college now and um but you did that yeah but i feel a little unsprung like what now now i feel like a teenager or something well are you meeting good people do you have good people to hang out with yeah then you're dating cool people
Marc:um yeah i mean i'm not i don't know i don't know what my dating status is right now but are you with people like uh like around our our age or mostly younger i don't meet anyone my age yeah never huh weird yeah might not be good go with younger why not yeah you think
Marc:that's all i mean younger's good i'm glad you're doing that it's nice to hear because men always get sort of a you know bad rap for that yeah i understand that why they do it yeah good for you oh you also mentioned danny goldberg who i had a miserable experience with is he still in your life no no i don't know what danny i think he's a manager now or something
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:All I know is he came into Air America when I was a morning guy there and just fired me.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And he was like this weird kind of like confused medicated person wandering around the halls.
Guest:How long ago was that?
Marc:They brought him in as CEO for reasons that I don't know.
Marc:That was in 2005, maybe.
Marc:Yeah, but he was definitely one of the villains in the Marc Maron narrative.
Marc:So, what are you going to do?
Marc:Are you going to do art?
Marc:Are you going to do music?
Guest:Yeah, I'm probably going to do art.
Guest:Mostly art, but also do music.
Marc:Do you think you'll ever forgive that man?
Marc:No.
Guest:I hope so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I hope so someday.
Marc:Hard, right?
Marc:But... You know, it's actually good that your daughter's all grown up and you don't have to deal with that thing of like, are you picking her up?
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's tough.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You seem good to me.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:It's great talking to you and I appreciate you coming.
Guest:I'm so happy to be here.
Marc:Good.
Guest:I'm a huge fan of your show.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And thank you for this book.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:I'm almost done.
Marc:Great.
Marc:And now I've listened to all the Sonic Youth records.
Guest:What's your favorite Sonic Youth record?
Guest:Well, it's weird because I hadn't heard... The first one that I ever... Did you ever even... I didn't even know you listened to Sonic Youth.
Marc:Yeah, well, there's like... It's weird when I talk to musicians.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:Because I can like somebody, but not listen to everything.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Do you know how can you do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But Daydream Nation, Goo, and Dirty were like, I remember when Goo came out, I had cassette tape.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I had it on cassette, and I remember it, and I listened to it a lot.
Marc:and then like you know things happen so those three i really was familiar with but then like i never went all the way back so i did that and i went a little bit forward and then i got you know it's every time i talk to a musician i get to like and then like i don't know never knew who glenn bronco was i'm sure there's plenty of people are listening like of course you didn't asshole like how could you not know like those people but it was great to listen to it all again and and to and to talk to you i was nervous but i think it went good
Guest:I was afraid that you were going to make me cry.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Why do people say that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's like... I mean, like, I don't... Well, I cry easily if I'm just in a certain mood or something.
Marc:Well, like, there was so... Like, you made me cry this morning.
Marc:You made me cry this morning.
Marc:I just want you to feel like I... I didn't feel... Did I feel like an idiot?
Marc:No.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Thanks for talking, Kim.
Marc:Sure.
Sure.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's the show.
Marc:I enjoyed talking to Kim Gordon.
Marc:I enjoyed meeting her.
Marc:And she was right here in my house.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:And remember, theme music is by John Montagna.
Marc:Other music on today's episode was by DJ Copley.
Marc:Check the marination dates, people.
Marc:Check those dates because we added shows in Boston, Toronto.
Marc:We added a show in Asheville.
Marc:Philadelphia is pretty close to selling out.
Marc:Houston is sold out.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash calendar and see when I'm coming.
Marc:I'm a little worn out.
Guest:Still getting over a cold.
Guest:I don't know what these... I can't use that box anymore because it causes trouble.
Guest:What box can I use?
Guest:What does that one do?
Guest:Boomer lives!