Episode 577 - Conor Oberst
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:I welcome you.
Marc:Right out of the gate, my guest today, Connor Oberst.
Marc:Some of you know him as Bright Eyes.
Marc:Some of you know him from Monsters of Folk or from the Desaparacidos, who are reuniting to release their first album 13 years later this year.
Marc:Desaparacidos.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:How's that for a name?
Marc:But today he's Connor Oberst on my show.
Marc:His recent solo album is Upside Down Mountain.
Marc:We'll talk to him in a minute.
Marc:So I know most of you know about my tour, but I feel like I should run it by you.
Marc:I should run it by you again if you don't.
Marc:I'm doing a massive tour starting at the end of March, really officially, March 21, 20 and 21 at the...
Marc:Rochester, New York, the comedy club.
Marc:I'm doing four shows to get in gear, to get my brain in the right place.
Marc:Thursday, April 9th, Warner Theater, Washington, D.C.
Marc:Friday, April 10th, the Trocadero, Philadelphia.
Marc:Saturday, April 11th, the Wilbur in Boston.
Marc:April 16th, the Barrymore Theater, Madison, Wisconsin.
Marc:April 17th, Carnegie of Homestead Music Hall, Pittsburgh.
Marc:April 18th, Royal Oak Music Theater, Royal Oak, Michigan.
Marc:April 19th, Bluma Appel, Toronto, Ontario.
Marc:April 25th, Fitzgerald in Houston, Texas.
Marc:Fitzgerald's.
Marc:April 26th, Southside Music Hall, Dallas, Texas.
Marc:May 8th, the Neptune in Seattle.
Marc:May 9th, the Vogue in Vancouver.
Marc:May 10th, Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco, California.
Marc:May 14th, the Orange Peel in Asheville, North Carolina.
Marc:May 15th, Charleston Music Hall, Charleston, South Carolina.
Marc:May 16th, Variety Playhouse, Atlanta, Georgia.
Marc:And May 17th, Joy Theater in New Orleans.
Marc:Tickets are selling fast.
Marc:So I better pull it together.
Marc:I've been up against the wall before.
Marc:This is how I work.
Marc:Push myself up against the wall, and then I line about nine of me's facing me with guns.
Marc:I have a blindfold on, and I say to the nine me's, wait, please, can you just give me a few minutes?
Marc:I think I have something to say that will save my life.
Marc:I think I have something to say that will prove that I'm innocent of being over me.
Marc:And I make my case.
Marc:And then, like, they let me off.
Marc:They put their guns down.
Marc:They say, well, you still got to go before the judge.
Marc:And that motherfucker, just another me, just sitting up there on high like he knows what's going on.
Marc:He's a little difficult because he passes judgment in a way that's not definitive.
Marc:It's more sort of like you're not guilty, but you should feel guilty.
Guest:Hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Great.
Marc:God damn it, man.
Marc:Everything's all right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I cooked a real chicken.
Marc:Don't recommend it.
Marc:A real chicken, like a real one.
Marc:Not like one that was in a cage, not a free-range chicken, but like a chicken that was just out in the wild chicken.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:I think if more people ate the real thing, like just the chicken that's out in the world, less people would eat chicken.
Marc:More people would be vegetarians because it's stringy, it's weird, it's muscly, it's a little bit gamey.
Marc:And that's like the good stuff.
Marc:And I was like, can I have my, you know, my sad, fat, caged chicken or mildly free range chicken that's been fed something to make its thighs and breasts too big?
Marc:But then I felt bad about that, putting that chicken through that.
Marc:But I'll tell you, the out in the wild, real chicken, chicken that had a life.
Marc:A little rough.
Marc:A little rough to eat.
Marc:A new cat has arrived.
Marc:I don't know where he came from.
Marc:There's a couple of new cats around.
Marc:Deaf black cat, I think, is gone.
Marc:And I don't know what to do about that.
Marc:I'm processing.
Marc:I'm a little sad.
Marc:But I think he's done.
Marc:I haven't seen him.
Marc:I haven't seen him around the neighborhood.
Marc:a new black cat has shown up.
Marc:This cat is a motherfucker.
Marc:Can I say that?
Marc:Sorry, kids.
Marc:This cat, it's like the equivalent of a cat pit bull in its intensity.
Marc:It's got this huge ass head and it's got this muscular body and it's got these huge balls, which means like, I don't know if, and it's got a massive scar on the back of its head.
Marc:This thing is, it's just a tough fucking looking cat.
Marc:He's pretty friendly.
Marc:I think he's somewhat peopled.
Marc:But I don't know what to do about those balls.
Marc:I mean, I guess he's not coming around every day.
Marc:I guess I got to get that taken care of because I'm afraid it's going to fuck me.
Marc:That's how intense his cat is.
Marc:He's coming over and he's eating and he's just stalking around looking for something to fuck.
Marc:And that's trouble.
Marc:Most of the cats around here are fixed.
Marc:There's another little dude around that looks exactly like an older dude I have.
Marc:I don't know where that guy came from.
Marc:And they just, I don't know how they make rounds.
Marc:I need to, I need, I wish I knew how cats lived.
Marc:But this black cat, it is a badass looking cat.
Marc:And I feel bad because there's part of me knows those balls have got to come off.
Marc:And I don't know if I'm the guy to do it.
Marc:I don't know what kind of relationship he has elsewhere.
Marc:Maybe there's a dude, I picture maybe a Latino dude down the street that loves this cat, that loves its big balls, and that it's a badass cat.
Marc:And then I'm going to trap it, get his balls cut off, and he's going to go back to his buddy.
Marc:And the guy's going to be like, where are your balls, yo?
Marc:And then he'll be ostracized.
Marc:For not being as macho as he once was.
Marc:And then maybe his head will get smaller.
Marc:And then he'll just be hanging around here.
Marc:Wondering what he should do with his life.
Marc:Like me.
Marc:Except I'm busy.
Marc:Very busy.
Marc:I have a full life.
Marc:But yet there's part of me that's sort of like, what am I going to do with my life?
Marc:What is that about?
Marc:God damn, man.
Marc:It's fucking crazy.
Marc:All right, so why don't we talk to Conor Oberst now, and perhaps he'll play some music for us as well.
Marc:I believe he will.
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:When you take the stage with big shots, you don't get any moment of insecurity?
Guest:Oh, I mean, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's never easy to be like, just trying to...
Marc:no problem yeah i'm just up here with bruce springsteen yeah exactly i'm just up here with john prine not an issue i can handle it exactly i saw you over there at the greek you were at the show i went to the show cool well here's the thing is like you know i've known about you for a long time and then like when we had the opportunity to talk i'm like well now i really gotta find out about him sure so i had to go
Marc:I gotta go back to when you were a kid.
Marc:So you're fortunate in that you're talking to a guy that is very up to speed on songs that are very fresh in my head.
Marc:Some of them for the first time.
Marc:Okay, cool.
Marc:Like the Bright Eyes records, I listened to Fevers and Mirrors, Lifted, and Casadega primarily.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And the last two solo albums.
Marc:Is that good?
Marc:Is that a solid foundation?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:that's a great starting point i asked these two little girls who i i think that at the time you uh first started doing the bright eyes records must have been the primary support uh-huh of what you were doing yeah because these girls were like uh they well they must have been like 25 and and they uh one of them had recognized me or something
Marc:And I was like, so are you big fans?
Marc:They're like, oh, yeah, I mean, since middle school.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, what should I listen to?
Marc:They're like, oh, Theft and Fevers and Mirrors.
Marc:Those are the ones.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:Those must have been the ones that planted the seed, man.
Guest:Yeah, I would say Fevers was definitely like the first, I don't know, breakthrough, the one that people heard first, I would say.
Guest:And wait, how old were you?
Marc:I would have been 19.
Marc:19.
Marc:So when did you start playing?
Marc:I mean, because you got some notoriety before that album, though.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, my first, very first, I guess, quote-unquote records, which was really a cassette tape, I was like 13 years old.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And me and my friends had this little kind of make-believe label, and we made our cassettes and sold them at the local, you know, the one cool music store in town.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how did that become the moment?
Marc:Who decided this guy's got something?
Guest:Well, I got to give credit to a good friend of mine, this guy, Ted Stevens, who's been in a lot of amazing bands.
Guest:He had a band called Lullaby for the working class in the 90s that was rad.
Guest:And then he still plays in cursive, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But he was the first one.
Guest:I mean, he's probably four or five years older than me when I was 13.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He heard me play a couple songs, and then he offered to bring his little Tascam 4-track to my parents' house.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:And recorded my first record or whatever.
Marc:At your parents' house?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We're in the basement?
Marc:In the bedroom?
Marc:In the attic.
Marc:In the attic?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In Nebraska?
Marc:In Nebraska.
Marc:What part of Nebraska?
Marc:Omaha.
Marc:I have no real point of reference for Omaha, Nebraska.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's an average Midwestern kind of town.
Guest:It's pretty, though.
Guest:It's kind of lush in Nebraska, isn't it?
Guest:So Omaha is on the far eastern side, so it's on the Missouri River.
Guest:So our downtown butts up against this town called Council Bluffs in Iowa.
Guest:And so they join there.
Guest:And it is pretty.
Guest:It's like the Missouri River Valley, so there's some hills and stuff.
Guest:The rest of Nebraska, as you go west towards Denver, of course, becomes truly a desert wasteland there.
Marc:zone yeah i think i drove through part of nebraska once i got some friends there were some there was a music scene up there in omaha i think or lincoln right yeah yeah and they're close together like lincoln's the college town and omaha's like the one real city and they're like you know an hour apart yeah i knew a couple guys come through there like buck naked was a guy that you ever heard that sort of like a rockabilly outfit and they ended up in the bay area but or something like that i don't think he's around anymore it's like calling your band free beer or something you know hey yeah give you other shows
Marc:It was Buck Naked in the Somebodies.
Marc:I don't remember what it was.
Marc:That isn't actually the name.
Marc:So you started playing guitar when you were what?
Marc:Like 10, maybe.
Marc:And did your parents give you the guitar?
Guest:Yeah, my dad is a musician, was a musician.
Guest:I mean, not professionally, but he had a cover band that would do all the sort of weddings and dances and stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:he was the multi-instrumentalist so he did some keys and he did some horn and some guitar and like backup singing and oh he did everything yeah and they had you know they they just played like uh he was like the 80s so they played you know whatever man eater whatever was popular at the time and and he would learn the parts and that was i mean that was kind of supplemental income what was his regular thing uh mutual of omar he was uh just kind of
Guest:A dude in the office?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:He worked there for, whoa, like, I don't know, 30 years or something, so.
Marc:Did a lot of people, I guess a lot of people worked there.
Guest:That's the big one.
Guest:I mean, there's that.
Guest:There's, like, Union Pacific is the other, the railroad is another big one.
Guest:In Omaha?
Guest:In Omaha, and, like, ConAgra, which is, like, you know, a huge Monsanto shitty, like, food thing, so.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Agribusiness.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Just grow that shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As fast as possible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And without bugs, no matter what the cost.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And then, of course, we got Warren Buffett.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the other kind of big.
Marc:He's trying to be a good guy now.
Marc:He's throwing some money back.
Marc:He is.
Marc:He is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sometimes they get old, they get soft.
Marc:They got a lot of money they don't know what to do with.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:Maybe it's time to help out.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:His daughter, Susie Buffett, is a pretty amazing person.
Guest:She's friends with my mom and does all kinds of great things for people.
Guest:And what'd your mom do when you were growing up?
Guest:She worked for the Omaha Public Schools.
Guest:She was a teacher and then eventually a principal.
Marc:So it was good.
Marc:So you had a father that at least had a dream at some point and somehow held on to it and there was enough instruments around the house.
Guest:I mean, no, they were so supportive and awesome.
Guest:I mean, I had my first band when I was like 14 or something and we even signed to like a label in New York and like...
Guest:i mean they were crazy enough as bright eyes no this was called commander venus this was an even earlier band somebody signed you at 14 yeah like we got these kids in nebraska yeah it's a cool label actually this label they're no longer a label they're called grass records and they and they did a bunch of cool stuff in the kind of early mid-90s like um the wrens and uh oh yeah like a sunbrain yeah yeah bunch of bands so what was that first guitar what was it
Guest:I had a, I don't know, I actually had the ovation with the curved back because my dad had a big, beautiful, old Dreadnought Martin that I could, when I was first starting to play, I would try to play it, but my arm couldn't get over the tie.
Guest:And so once they realized, okay, I was taking it serious enough, and it was like, whatever, Christmas, whatever, and they got me the littlest, thinnest one that I could kind of get my arm around.
Marc:And what was the inspiration initially?
Marc:Because I know you get comparisons hung on you that can't be helpful in any way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:The last thing anybody wants to be is compared to Bob Dylan in some ways.
Marc:I imagine it's flattering, but after a certain point, you're going to be like, oh boy.
Guest:Yeah, that was a tough one.
Guest:I mean, I think that in like music journalist shorthand, that's kind of like code for, they have a lot of words in their songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they write a lot of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or it's a weird voice.
Guest:It's hard to get used to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, there's worse things to be called, I suppose.
Guest:You know, but it is a bit because when it's funny, when people read something like that about you, like in a magazine, they they take this step to think that you're saying it about yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, it's like, no, no, I never said that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Somebody wrote that.
Guest:And then a thousand other people asked me about it.
Marc:Well, it's tricky because like, you know, I was trying to figure out, you know, what is it about, about what I thought about you that didn't necessarily like lock.
Marc:Why didn't I lock in earlier?
Marc:It's a tricky thing when you're an earnest cat because you're pretty earnest, dude.
Marc:You're not a fucking goofball.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, and that comes across.
Guest:I am a goofball, but maybe not in the music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But are you aware of that?
Guest:I mean, sure.
Guest:I mean, I actually think that there's more humor in some of my music than people realize.
Guest:And they can hear?
Guest:Because you're too intense?
Guest:Yeah, maybe.
Guest:I mean, not so much on the early records, but I mean, in later records, I would say, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but you're aware of that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, because when you're young and you're prolific and it means something to you, that's just a moving target for bullies and people that aren't making it and critics.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I was, I mean, our stuff was, I think when, or there was a slight reaction to when I first started going to shows at like the little, one little punk club or whatever in town.
Guest:And there was that whole kind of nineties wave of like super slacker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like everything, you know, it's kind of getting back to that, but everything had to be ironic and everything had to be kind of like, I don't really know effort.
Guest:yeah i don't really play guitar i don't really do this right i just do this because it yeah while i'm serving coffee or whatever right and to me i always felt like if you're once i decided i want to do this for my life and i was really gonna do it when was that i mean 14 maybe not quite i mean i was yes i always wanted to do it from when i started i did i always assumed eventually i would have to do something else because it might not work out right financially or whatever but
Guest:And I guess I always felt like if you're going to take it, if you're going to do it, like there's nothing wrong with taking it seriously and like trying your best.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:So if you're 14, what was the process of writing for you then?
Marc:And what were you trying to do?
Marc:I mean, what were you listening to that made you go, holy shit, there's power in that.
Guest:Yeah, it was definitely, it was actually a local thing because there was this one great record store called the Antiquarium, which sadly no longer exists, but that was where we would all go.
Guest:Who's we?
Guest:Like my brothers and our friends.
Guest:How many brothers you got?
Guest:Two older brothers.
Guest:Oh, so you had the gift of the older brother.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:oh man that's helpful when you want to learn about music oh absolutely yeah and then like and then you know kind of their groups of friends would let me tag along and the dude at the store i bet yeah yeah yeah yeah so there was yeah there was a certain novelty to the fact that i wrote songs right i came in there and i was really you know really little or whatever so they let let me kind of bum around and there was a
Guest:there's he still makes amazing records i always try to talk about him because he's who's a hidden treasure but his name is simon joyner uh-huh and he's a amazing i mean he's probably made like he worked at the record store no he was a songwriter in town okay and uh big early influence on me still to this day i love i always wait he puts out a record probably once a year you know he's still local yep yep and uh have you taken him out with you yeah
Guest:several times and he's got I mean he's got like a cult following kind of all over the world very famously once John Peel the famous DJ played like one of his albums start to finish which I guess he had never or he'd only done a couple times in like the history of his show or whatever but anyway he was a local guy that
Guest:really meant a lot to me and I sort of tried to model myself.
Guest:Emulate?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:What was it about him though?
Marc:There's something about those local guys where there's the excitement of no one knows about this guy.
Marc:And he's like the best.
Guest:I mean, to us, it was kind of the opposite.
Guest:It was like, he's the biggest.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, in my eyes.
Marc:Oh, so now it's changed.
Guest:As you get older, you're like, wow.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And truly, he got me to probably those other songwriters like Towns Van Zandt, like Dylan, like Prine, like whatever.
Guest:Just all those kind of true sort of...
Guest:What were his themes?
Guest:What was his style?
Guest:What would you compare it to?
Guest:I would say it's definitely folk-based.
Guest:His early records were just guitar and voice, and then since then he's made a lot of records with bands.
Guest:Folk is tricky, isn't it?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:I mean, it's... Because would you consider yourself a folk musician from the start?
Marc:Because those Bright Eyes records aren't really folk records.
Guest:I mean, I actually would in the sense of like...
Guest:when i think of my songs there's there the song itself is hopefully sturdy enough to exist apart from whatever arrangement or whatever production you put onto it that's right and so you want you know for me it's like the song is the obviously the vocal melody the chord progression and the lyrics and i think if it's if a song is you know worth its salt you should be able to play it just on a guitar on a piano and it should still make sense you know you can over produce it and put some drums on there and we've done a lot of that you know but yeah i always think of it as kind of like
Marc:you know once the song exists it's you're it's like standing like naked in front of some kind of giant walk-in closet and there's like a million outfits you could dress it up in well i think that's true i think that's what's interesting about you know even watching you the other night that you know the choice for whatever this tour was was it struck me you know once it really got going and on some of the faster tunes that you know it's a country band
Marc:really yeah i mean we had the pedal steel and everything going yeah i mean you know you had the whole thing and there was that that kind of romping one four five thing sure that is sort of like that's like honky tonk music yeah yeah so the choice was but then i realized like as a singer songwriter it's it's an interesting place to be because that is for and for that's foremost what you do and then you're sort of like well what what's gonna what are we gonna do with it
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's really up to you, and it seems like you've chosen a lot of different things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's hard to pigeonhole you.
Guest:Well, I mean, yeah.
Guest:I think that, for me, a big part of keeping the excitement and making records is collaborating with different people and just experimenting within... I think it has to make sense.
Guest:Sometimes, like...
Guest:Just experimenting to make something weird isn't that interesting to me.
Guest:But if you can experiment and make it cool and different, but still keep the essence of the song.
Marc:Well, I like that about the Bright Eyes records is that there are these interludes of conversation or phone messages or things.
Marc:But I always like it.
Marc:I don't know if it was calculated, but I was listening to it the day before yesterday, one of the early records where I'm like, there's always a chick around.
Marc:There's always a chick around like either like talking or laughing, but it just seems like there's at least one or two girls hanging around the band.
Guest:Well, we've had a lot of girls in the band over the years.
Guest:Yeah, there's vocals on some of those.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So yeah, we've been blessed to know a lot of pretty badass female musicians.
Marc:So when did the struggle begin with whatever the hell it is that you were trying to solve?
Marc:With your words.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think it's still happening.
Marc:I listen to the words, and I'm not a big lyrics guy.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I'm a melody guy.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That would surprise me just because...
Marc:because I'm a wordy guy.
Marc:I'm a thinky guy.
Marc:But the primary problem is if I can't understand them pretty easily and I got to go back over and over again, like I've been recently trying to write some stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I've written poetry and I've written a book and I've done that.
Marc:But songwriting is a whole other animal.
Marc:And there's some part of my brain after 25 years as a comic and doing this, I'm sort of like, no, I want to write some songs.
Marc:So I was listening to what song craft really is.
Guest:but uh but i it has to be they have to be up front for me to to lock in like i gotta be able to hear it if it's a problem like i never understood why so many records are mixed so they're like why can't you understand the vocals well it's most of the time that's because i think people are insecure about their lyrics you know so that's i mean that's kind of another sort of thing in like whatever modern bloggy fucking music that
Guest:that's annoying to me sometimes where it's just like there's so much of that reverb and drenched on the voice right and i get it like the shoegaze whatever but it's like to me it's like the sign of kind of a self-conscious right singer that doesn't want to be doesn't want to have anyone have a chance to critique what they're saying or their idea i mean i've always been attracted to songs that
Guest:Yeah, you can maybe walk away with and still latch onto the melody, but you can also walk away with ideas.
Marc:Sure, it's provocative.
Guest:Yeah, like a Leonard Cohen song or a Paul Simon song or something you walk away and you're like, whoa, you're thinking now about.
Guest:Right.
Marc:There's room in between.
Marc:Well, Leonard more than Paul, it's sparse, so it's going to provoke whatever it's going to provoke.
Marc:But you do a lot of very good turn of phrases, and it seems like from early on,
Marc:that your sense of emotion and relationship and spiritual struggle was fairly strong early on.
Marc:Is that something you gleaned from listening to other people?
Marc:Here's what I'm getting at.
Marc:When I write a poem or you work a piece of music, something that has structure like that,
Marc:it becomes almost like an equation, an emotional equation.
Marc:So I guess my question is, did you reveal yourself to yourself as you wrote, or were you like, I feel this way and I'm gonna, you know?
Guest:I think it was probably more the revealing as I went along, or not, I mean,
Guest:clearly not knowing what i was doing so the words were a surprise you're like holy shit yeah yes and they spilled out in very sloppy ways for a long time and i think just through trial and error of having written you know hundreds of songs at this point i have decided things that i like and i've
Guest:got to the point where I'm better at going back and, uh, you know, revising.
Guest:And a lot of times nowadays I'll write us, I'll, I'll have us, you know, I'll write 10 verses to a song and then the three that I liked the most make it into the actual song where when I was younger, it would be like done and do all 10 man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, all right.
Guest:That tape doesn't cost much.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:yeah they make those like 90 minute yeah man jobs that can be two songs on there you know let's just open it up but uh but in terms of like you know heartbreak and and dealing with you know fragile people and dealing with uh with that the sort of like i noticed there's a few songs about you know what seemed to me to be you know relationships with with people that that are you know maybe nuts yeah yeah
Marc:you know stuff we all deal with sure sure but do you remember what was the first song you wrote about well um was it an experiment or were you trying just you have an urgency to uh to certainly who you were when you were younger and i still saw it a bit uh on stage the other night there's a there's a bit of a rage there
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think the very, very early songs surprisingly aren't, it's not that different from the way it is now, which is you have these little observations that you pick up throughout your daily life, whether it's a conversation with someone or maybe something you see on TV or read in the paper or whatever, just these little sort of things that you pick up and notice.
Guest:And then for me, they kind of collect in the background
Guest:of my mind and sort of my subconscious and then you know the I think that the miracle or whatever of creativity is the way that those things all blend together and then come out in the in these songs that I don't I still can't like sit down
Guest:and write a song you know if you were to like write me a song in half hour or something i could probably make a song but it would be not good you know right and so so much of it is waiting for that special kind of inspiration that comes so just couplets sometimes even yeah you got a notebook with you and you just chase them down as they hit you yeah and it's like some yeah or just some image that like sticks in my mind you know i always feel like the
Guest:A lot of times I'll sing a song to myself or I'll have an idea for a song and then I won't get to the tape recorder, I won't get to the guitar, and then by the next day it's gone.
Guest:That's the worst.
Guest:One of those, I couldn't find a pen.
Guest:Damn it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I've kind of come to terms with that in the sense of I feel like, well, maybe those are the ones that weren't meant to be because I find that the ones that stick with me that I actually can't shake and those ideas I can't shake are the ones that make for better ideas.
Guest:right so you can actually build out from an image like you know like you know if you have a moment where you're like holy shit like a little piece of you know fragment of poetry yeah or just something i saw like when i wrote a song um one time after i had gone to uh the uh the pharmacy slash liquor store which i love how they're the same yeah thing yeah
Guest:And, you know, I was like going like with, you know, my girlfriend at the time or whatever and like going in to like get our vodka or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was those, you know, those the drive through lines where people get their medicine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Out of the window.
Guest:And I was I looked over into the window and I was like,
Guest:what's that's so weird that there's a little there's a old old man look how tiny that old man is yeah and and he just looks so strange to me like he must be you know i don't know he looked like an old a little old man yeah and then we came back out and i saw him again like that's a little kid oh yeah that's like a little kid with like a disease yeah like that's like a
Guest:different thing yeah than when i first you know what i mean yeah yeah and like that was a thing where i just couldn't shake that experience you know and that i didn't go home and directly like write about it but that was one of those things that stayed in there and then eventually like what did it become it's called danny callahan it's on oh yeah records but yeah i listened to that song yeah i mean it's just kind of in one of the verses of it but yeah as a example of something that just sort of like you see for a split second but then it
Marc:Well, it's interesting because like watching you and Prine and, you know, and thinking about like even towns that, you know, there are dudes that do thinky stuff and then there are dudes that tell stories.
Marc:And, you know, like a folk guy is going to do a little of both.
Marc:But like I noticed that, you know, I think you lean towards the thinky.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Could be.
Marc:Could be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because even on the new record, the song about the kid, that growing up song, that sweet song, that seemed almost like an exercise in that type of writing for you.
Guest:Yeah, that's definitely more of- What's that song called?
Guest:You Are Your Mother's Child.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was an anomaly.
Guest:I mean, that was one I wrote originally for a movie that was about kind of a father and his step relationship with his kids.
Guest:So I was trying to write a song from the perspective of
Guest:this father that's essentially saying you know singing about his son and obviously in a loving way but sort of saying the reason you're so good and the reason is that you are you know you are your mother's child right not me man exactly yeah yeah and so it's kind of like the little twist at the end where it's like right you see that this is a guy that maybe hasn't been the best father but he still has a lot of love you know for his kid sure
Marc:So that was actually an assignment almost.
Guest:Kind of.
Marc:It was a project.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I would say that one- You like that song?
Guest:I mean, that was one that I wasn't sure if I was going to put it on the record because it's definitely more on the sentimental tip and it's a bit of an outlier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I do like it.
Guest:I mean, I think at the end of the day, I was like, you know, I think it's good for what it is.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, man.
Marc:Well, I mean, if you churn out as many songs as you do just sort of innately, how do you know when you... Which ones do you love and why?
Marc:Like, if you look back.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I don't spend a lot, I mean... Sometimes you play them.
Guest:I do play them.
Guest:I mean, if I was to pick like...
Guest:Okay, one of my favorite songs I've written is a song called Cape Canaveral.
Marc:Yeah, I like that song, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's one that I, I don't know, I mean, I'm kind of picking at random, but that's one that I feel very good about the words and the way it came together, yeah.
Marc:And the sort of elements in the chorus and the span of the lyrics.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I like it.
Guest:Yeah, it's impressionistic for sure, and it's meant to kind of, I don't know, fly by in a way that's not completely linear, but I like that.
Marc:So you seem to wrestle with... There seems to be points of contention with you, not just politically, but with...
Marc:with religion and with the idea of religion.
Marc:It seems like a lot of the songs all throughout your career are sort of trying to find that space, if that space exists.
Marc:There's a lot of equations that you set up poetically that end in the present.
Marc:Like, we got this, we got this, but the now is where we're at.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's probably true.
Guest:I mean, yeah, I went to, grew up Catholic school and all that.
Guest:Did you grow up believing it?
Guest:I mean, again, my parents were always pretty cool, so I remember the first time I could really make an argument beyond, like, I want to sleep in on Sunday or whatever, then my mom was pretty cool to let me.
Guest:I mean, I remember, like, I don't know how you grew up, but in Catholicism.
Guest:Very easygoing Jew is how I was brought up.
Guest:Well, Catholicism, there's this thing called confirmation when you're 12.
Guest:I guess it's like bar mitzvah type vibe.
Guest:Sure, I get it, yeah.
Guest:And so I remember, I think you're in sixth grade or seventh grade or something.
Guest:You're pretty young still.
Guest:But the idea of the sacrament or whatever is that you...
Guest:uh you are now an adult in the eyes of the faith and you're taking it on as your own and i remember like being saying to my mom like you i don't believe in this i don't want to do this and she was like well you're doing it for your grandmother yeah you'll get your clothes do it for grandma yeah yeah and that was it yeah so
Marc:And that was the end of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But where do you stand now?
Marc:Because like I like because there like I said, there is an urgency towards the idea of sort of I don't know if it's figuring it out, but, you know, wherever your emotions are going within a lot of your songs, there seems to be some need for something beyond the song.
Marc:You know, where do you land with that?
Guest:as far as like spirituality like sure and you know i mean you talk about fate there's a song that you did the other night yeah that that taught you i think you introduced it yeah uh questioning the idea of fate i yeah i think it's still something i i think about you know i think that's just a big part of the human condition i'm definitely i think that organized religion has reaped all manners of evil sure upon this world and i wish in a lot of ways that it
Marc:would it wouldn't exist i mean i think it's also given a lot of people a place to go on sunday and that's true yeah no that's true yeah you know i yeah and what you know it's whatever works for everybody you know i'm not no no i i mean i get your drift yeah but like you know where did you ever like because i i noticed like there's something else i noticed that when i was thinking about even the career dylan and in in your two solo records
Marc:That's where I sort of realized that the songwriter is going to be the songwriter first and foremost.
Marc:And then you just got to figure out how mature you want that music to be behind you.
Marc:In the sense that, how is it going to fit where I'm at in my life now?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Even your old songs.
Marc:You're choosing this band.
Marc:They're a solid-ass band.
Marc:And then you choose songs that you're going to play just on the guitar.
Marc:But Dylan would sort of publicly...
Marc:And I think who else?
Marc:Well, not talent.
Marc:He didn't last long enough.
Marc:But, you know, Leonard Cohen has sort of evolved into a bit of a Buddha of sorts.
Marc:And, you know, there is something as you get older that, you know, you start to, you know, either get comfortable with or not.
Marc:You know, where have you landed with that stuff on a day to day basis and keeping your shit together?
Guest:um or you don't think about it i try not to think about it too much i mean i i guess i'm like you know a humanist i think that like you get what you give kind of thing and and the more love and and uh positivity that you can promote just in your own life amongst your own friends and family and and if you can strangers you know
Guest:the more that you can give that positive energy, I think it is returned, you know?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's kind of maybe a hallmark way to look at it.
Marc:Well, I mean, do you still feel like, do you struggle with depression or anything?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, but doesn't everybody?
Marc:To a degree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's just like, because I just know that, like, who was I talking to?
Marc:Maybe it was Maynard from Tool or something.
Marc:He said that if you don't believe in magic a little bit, it's hard to be creative.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah i mean i still think the the wonder and the mystery of things is is you know one thing that keeps me going like the idea of not you know if someone was like what are you are you an atheist or agnostic or what you know i would i wouldn't really want any of those labels but i guess i would say i'm agnostic if in the sense of i do think there's things beyond the human scope that we just don't know yeah and that
Guest:thank god yeah they're thank whoever yeah and it's i don't know about you know an eternal soul or life after death or all that shit but like i do think we are part of an energy a greater energy beyond ourselves yeah and that um there is there is a way to live there is a there is a better way to live than other ways you know i'm not like and you know i'm not have you made some mistakes sure of course
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, try to learn from them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's where the songs come from.
Marc:They got to come from that after a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:So when you think back on, you know, the guys that, you know, have that you like to listen to, like Townes, let's start with him.
Marc:You know, what was it that impressed you about him outside of like this profound heavy heartedness that's almost hard to listen to?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it is some of the saddest music ever made.
Guest:But I just, I guess just the way it makes me feel in my heart.
Guest:Which song gets you?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I would say there's so many.
Guest:You know that song Miss Carousel?
Guest:Fairly well, Miss Carousel?
Guest:It's on the first one.
Guest:That's one of my favorite bangers.
Guest:I mean, even a song, as famous as it is, but Poncho and Lefty, you listen to that song, and it's like...
Guest:there's those songs that come from some other world you know that mr tambourine man or something you know there's these songs that like where it's just like this yeah it's like there's i don't know i mean it's easy to be like it's some divine channeling or whatever and i don't know that that's true but i do know that some people are able to touch these things these these these these these jewels these like
Marc:Yeah, well, they come just like you said.
Marc:They come watching TV.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that a lyric, unlike anything else, is just sort of like you can really start with a line and not even know why.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:Well, Towns claims he dreamt that song, and he said he didn't know what it's about, but it's like...
Guest:yeah why not why not tap that shit yeah totally i mean have you ever have you ever have you ever written stuff from dream i have i i did have one song i mean i've dreamt music but as far as like one that actually was like i could remember and make into a song um there's a song of mine called lime tree and uh
Guest:in my song or in my dream my a friend of mine who is not uh not a singer at all he's never saying i never heard him sing and he was in my dream and he was singing this song and he had the most beautiful high like angelic voice yeah and he sang like the whole like verse and chorus like in my dream yeah and i woke up and i was on the i was on the bus i was on in the tour bus and i popped up in my bunk and was like
Guest:and got i got out and i got my guitar yeah and i sat in the back lounge and like wrote it pretty much start to finish like with the lyrics that he's saying get out yeah that so that was the closest i've gotten to something like that did you tell him about it oh yeah yeah what did you say he was stoked
Guest:Was this a childhood friend or not a music guy?
Guest:It is a music guy.
Guest:It's this guy named Nick White.
Guest:He plays in bands, but he's just a piano player.
Guest:So I had never heard him sing.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:And what about when you listen to Dylan?
Marc:Which song kills you?
Marc:Because I know a couple of Dylan songs that kill me.
Marc:Like, Visions of Joanna is like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, they're in It's Alright, Ma.
Marc:Those two songs, like, all the answers are in those two.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah, It's Alright, Ma is the one, I think, you ever see that Ed Bradley interview he did, like, 60 Minutes, like, a Dylan interview he did.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Like, this is, like, in sort of recent history.
Guest:I mean, I guess maybe 10 years ago or something.
Guest:He's hard to talk.
Guest:to but yeah then he started see that actually he's it's a concrete incredible interview but he starts uh quoting that's that song and he's like he's like like you try to do that yeah like that's like that's magic that's not a not sig freud and word magic that's uh that's real man you know that's what dylan said yeah it's like something like only only something he could say but he was like you try to do that
Marc:Well, I think he's sort of like, I think he eventually became kind of rightfully, you know, defending like, you know, I don't know where this comes from.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I'm the guy that's delivered it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he also says in that interview about how he's like, I can't do that anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, I can do other things, but...
Guest:I can't do that anymore.
Guest:He got more sparse as he got older.
Guest:Some of that later stuff was pretty good.
Guest:I still think Time Out of Mind is one of his best albums.
Guest:It's a great record.
Marc:The production thing is trippy, man.
Marc:You feel like you're in some sort of tunnel that the light's dimming at the end of.
Marc:That was the first time you realized Dylan knows it's...
Guest:He's running out of time, right?
Guest:Yeah, there's a beautiful swampy heaviness to that record that's in all the, because I think that's a Lenoir one.
Guest:Those reverbs and stuff just really take you into a different world, you know?
Marc:What music did you grow up with primarily?
Marc:What was your old man into outside of practicing his cover tunes?
Guest:I mean, they were like Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, Joni Mitchell, Jackson Brown.
Guest:To a certain degree, definitely Neil.
Guest:To a certain degree, Dylan and stuff.
Guest:Neil?
Guest:Elvis Custa.
Guest:Definitely Neil, for sure.
Guest:Oh, and Paul Simon.
Marc:Paul Simon's like...
Marc:paul simon solo records even that first one it's like one of my favorite the hood on the greatest record man i know that song duncan oh kills me yeah that whole album is like beautiful it's crazy like my parents used to play that on the a-track when we were kids yeah so like it was plowed into my head yeah but a piece like a river oh yeah what the fuck oh long past midnight curfew we said starry eyed
Marc:yeah yeah so sweet like like something about that song Duncan about that guy getting laid yeah getting into the tent with like the hippie girl yeah like I was like like literally in the back of a station wagon as a kid going like I know what's happening yeah it was like a turn on yeah yeah there's a lot of great ones
Marc:But you seem to have some other influences that kind of ring throughout the music all the way, like a little rap, a little punk somewhere.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, the stuff, like I was saying, from that record store and this place in town that was like this little hole-in-the-wall punk rock club, we saw a lot of, I guess, what you'd call punk or hardcore, indie rock, whatever the hell they called it at that time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was definitely a lot of that and deep love for replacements and that kind of stuff.
Marc:Sure, man.
Marc:But it doesn't seem like in listening that I noticed any real attempt at a pop hook per se, but it didn't seem to concern you that much early on.
Guest:No, I wrote, for a long time, none of my songs had any words that repeated.
Guest:So every chorus would be different words.
Guest:And that was intentional?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Or maybe one line would repeat, but for the most part, I was trying to, yeah, use every last bit of real estate for more words, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I didn't, it was a long time before I sort of realized there's something nice about going back to a
Guest:refrain right now yeah there's something nice about repeating some words sure um gives people a chance to sing along yeah give the people a chance to sing along yeah you're a folk musician exactly and they can feel and it can feel really good to get back to that spot you know but i also i also get bored with like you know obviously on top 40 radio and stuff where they'll be
Guest:there'll be this line you know the two two lines of a verse and then you're back yeah chorus and then like now we're back to like the fifth chorus and it's the same words and yeah repetition and now and now they yeah and now they're now it's like they didn't even sing it five times they sang it once and then they put it all put it all in there cut and paste and it just sucks you know and it does suck and it's hard to like uh
Guest:It's hard to relate to that stuff.
Guest:And I think it is, I mean, there is like a human psychological condition about, you know, familiarity is equated to enjoyment, like in the human mind.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:It's comforting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, there it is again.
Guest:And that's the way, I mean, that's the way all, you know, commercial radio works is they play, you know, now they play the same, whatever it is, 16 songs however many times a day.
Guest:I don't even know what it is anymore.
Guest:And so it couldn't even, it could matter less what the song sounds like because for people that listen to like terrestrial radio, they're going to hear this same cut that many times to the point where it's just like,
Guest:I like, I must like this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I know it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They keep playing it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like a nice, comfortable shoe.
Marc:And then people must like it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I must not be alone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They keep playing it.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I've had some experiences listening to classic rock radio in recent times.
Marc:I got in the vinyl again where I'm completely surprised at how many of some artists' songs I know and just how fucking much better they are than I ever thought.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, do you ever have that moment with Credence where you're like, what the fuck?
Marc:yeah i mean they have amazing and that guy meant it man he's saying his balls off and like some of that stuff is like raw dude oh definitely yeah yeah who do you who do you like like to hear when it pops up on the radio you know um you're a petty guy oh i love that right oh it's love you ever play with him i have and i've i i know uh i know ben ma a little bit yeah and i've i've been able to see some great petty shows but uh
Guest:But no, I have never met Tom himself.
Guest:But you did play with Bruce.
Guest:I played with Bruce, who's an amazing, gracious, awesome person.
Marc:And he's an interesting guy, I would imagine, for someone like you, who had to come around full circle to see himself as a folk musician.
Marc:Because I think he likes that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like as he got older and he did- I mean, he had the new Dylan thing thrown on him, you know?
Guest:Right, but he was coming from such a tradition of like, you know, like East Coast R&B and- Totally.
Guest:That's soul.
Guest:Greetings from Asbury Park, which I love, is like a soul record.
Guest:It's almost like a Van Morrison record.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:It sounds like a fucking Van Morrison record.
Guest:Yeah, it's that, you know that song For You?
Guest:There's a song called For You.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:For you, for you, I came for you.
Guest:but you did not need my urgency.
Guest:That's a banger.
Marc:You did not need my urgency.
Marc:Those are like, yeah, you got a lot of lines like that.
Marc:Just these little lines, you're like, oh, jeez, that must have hurt that guy.
Marc:Yeah, it's fun.
Guest:It's fun when you can, when I like writers that don't always,
Guest:They don't always kind of telegraph their punches.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They'll be like, they kind of got you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then this one comes.
Guest:Subtle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then that one comes out of the blue and just like hits.
Marc:Right, and sometimes it's not like, it's just the precision of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It may not be an elaborate word, but the emotion is like, whoa.
Marc:Yeah, it's like boxing, man.
Marc:Yeah, that's what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Turning the phrase.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's like boxing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was a lot of your compulsive, it seems, songwriting when you were younger to sort of manage anger, manage darkness, manage frustration?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:I mean, I always felt and still feel that, to me...
Guest:A lot of my day-to-day, I feel like I have a pretty scatterbrained.
Guest:I'm not like an airhead, but my mind wanders a lot and I'm prone to daydreams and maybe not paying attention all the time.
Guest:And so writing is a form for me to kind of get to some clarity.
Guest:And if I can put it down and it makes sense to me, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone else, but if it makes sense to me,
Guest:It makes me feel a little more, you know, attached to this, this reality.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Then I. Hands on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I, then it's a, it's a, it's a force of good for myself, you know?
Marc:You're not drifting off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the head.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I know that one where you're like, I don't talk to anybody.
Marc:And I'm okay.
Marc:That's the scary part.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:Not talking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But is your, your brother's in the music bracket too?
Yeah.
Guest:um nope my bro my brothers are not in they don't play yeah they don't they're not in the music business my my one brother justin helped start the label very very early on uh-huh but after that he um you know went on to like law school and oh yeah yeah he lives in dc and does like uh is he a good guy or a bad guy
Guest:No, he works for a environmental consulting law thing, which sounds like a good thing, but I think sometimes they- Trying to bend the rules.
Guest:I think there's some of that.
Guest:I mean, he's a very good person, but I think his job and the nature of the beast out there is pretty crazy.
Guest:And what's the other brother do?
Guest:And the other brother is a teacher.
Guest:all right yeah and your folks go around yep they have now moved to the east coast to be closer to the grandkids grandkids yeah and uh actually one of the things i feel a best or one of the i guess an accomplishment i suppose i feel good about is i was able to my dad from because i always had stuff going on like
Guest:taxes and record contracts and stuff i didn't understand when i was young and he uh he would just do all that stuff for me because he don't want me to end up you know in jail for like tax evasion so he would help me and did that for years and years while he worked at mutual of omaha yeah and then
Guest:one day i got to the point where my other like manager manager was like okay now you need to get a business manager it's just you have to this right this is i know i just hit that myself yeah it's hard it's getting stupid to not have one and and i just asked my dad to do it i was like dad will you quit your job and i'll pay you a salary and you can do all this stuff that you're already doing for me but you won't have to go up into the
Guest:indian in the sky building anymore and be up there in that weird cubicle and he took it took the gig he did it so dad's on the payroll yeah that's good and he's all and it's awesome you know because it's you know you don't have to worry about exactly yeah it's your dad totally and get along with him and yeah and he's like the most uh you know pragmatist like midwestern like solid dude so like i'm always like why shouldn't we be able to like get around some of this like yeah tax stuff you know
Marc:You've got to pay the government.
Marc:You've got to do your part.
Marc:It's your civic duty.
Marc:Well, it's interesting when you start making money where your politics end up.
Marc:That's where people change.
Marc:That's where idealism dies at the tax man.
Guest:it's true i i can remember um getting my first like advance for uh like a publishing deal when i was like probably like 19 or something and i don't know what it was it was like 50 000 or something and i thought i was the richest person that had like ever lived yeah yeah yeah well you get about 20 of that yeah exactly and then i remember that being explained to me like well actually i was like oh
Guest:yeah and I mean it'd be one thing if it was like oh we all had beautiful public schools and like you know yeah swimming pools and yeah whatever for like everyone to use yeah roads that worked and right public transportation but that's not the case hard to track that money I know that you didn't get right yeah and that's when it and that's when yeah it does become political pretty fast because you're like what the hell like what that's you know let's do something with all that besides like build bombs to like you know
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but I think that's interesting.
Marc:It's not whatever.
Marc:It's interesting to me that that other band that you have, your rock band, what's that called again?
Marc:Desi Paracitos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We've only made one record and it was back in like 2001 or two.
Guest:But we're about to make a new one.
Guest:What's going to happen?
Guest:It's going to happen next year.
Marc:Now, what do you see that project as?
Marc:What can you do with them that you can't do on your own?
Guest:Well, it's a band.
Guest:It's a real band in the sense of it's the same five guys, and everyone has their role, and we write.
Guest:Those songs we write all together in the band room.
Guest:The other guitar player is kind of more of a riff-based guitar player, so he comes up with these cool rock riffs, and then we all start playing loud, and I start screaming nonsense, and then eventually I write words to match the melody.
Guest:So, yeah, I guess it's more of...
Guest:you know being together and all of our ideas you know combining to make that band what it is but it is very uh all the songs are very you know topical and i wouldn't say they're all political but they're all topical well the weird thing is about you know folk music and the sort of populist responsibility of you know what was the you know certainly the the woody guthrie side of the folk movement sure and
Marc:It kind of hangs on, it kind of leans on you guys a little bit.
Marc:Like at some point you're going to hit that juncture where you're like, I better say something for the people, to the people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like there's a social responsibility to folk in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, back in 2004, 2005, I had this song called When the President Talks to God, and it wasn't on a record or anything.
Guest:And I wrote it after doing the... We did the... Because you were part of the whole Air America thing and all that, right?
Guest:Yeah, I was there.
Guest:So anyway, there was that Vote for Change tour, which is when I was on tour with Springsteen and R.E.M.
Guest:and John Fogarty.
Guest:And we did all these shows, and we were trying to get...
Guest:carry and that other guy elected and uh and we you know it felt worked really hard kind of my heart was in it you know i was young naive right and wanted to work out and it didn't and i was of course devastated and i remember i had just finished
Guest:my record and i was going to europe to uh to do a press thing you know you got to go these just these straight press tours yeah which is like my least favorite part of it go and just get interviewed all these different countries and yeah that was at the height of just like the europeans definitely hating bush and iraq war and everything rightfully so and he had just got re-elected
Guest:And I was just like, man, I'm going to go and this is all they're going to want to talk about.
Guest:And I was very bummed out.
Guest:But Bruce, being as sweet as he is, called my cell phone.
Guest:I'm like at the airport.
Guest:Springsteen?
Guest:Yeah, to get on the plane.
Guest:And he's just like, no, Connor, go over there and you tell him.
Guest:there's half of us that don't believe in this and and there's a real america over here and we're gonna fight really hard you know gave me this like pep talk like in the airport which is so cool and i was like all right bruce i'm gonna do it so i cruised over there and i like basically on the plane and shortly after i'd landed i wrote that song really quick and it's a terrible song it's not a good song it's just kind of like a talking blues yeah you know fuck george w basically right
Guest:but it felt like like as you say like an obligation like i felt like i had to do something to uh you know just to it was more of a commercial for like the idea that there are there was another there was a whole another half of americans that felt the opposite you know and trying to like but you got you got orders from the boss exactly the boss called you before you made the trip exactly so
Marc:Do you still have that relationship with him?
Guest:I mean, whenever I see him or run into him, he's always gracious and awesome.
Guest:Like he played Omaha once and I was there and he like got me up on stage and stuff.
Guest:So yeah, but I mean, we're not like chatting on the phone.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Well, it's interesting because Dylan was very good at balancing all that shit and coding it in, you know, sort of broader existential terms.
Marc:You know, he was really kind of amazing at being vague and concise at the same time.
Marc:I think you nail that too sometimes.
Marc:It could be about anything.
Marc:You're going to take that lyric and it's going to go in, like you said before, it's going to provoke whatever it's going to provoke in you.
Guest:Yeah, and I think the truth of it is that the political and the personal will always be intertwined.
Guest:And so if you can tell a human story and maybe the subtext is a political issue, but you can figure out a way to communicate that to a listener without being so on the nose, which I've been not so successful at on some of my songs, but that's just part of learning about that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, but you write so many.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're growing up.
Marc:You're growing up in public.
Marc:You're growing up with your music.
Marc:I mean, you know, not everybody starts at fucking 15 and has to somehow wrangle that shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you're like, you're a grown ass man now.
Marc:I know, baby.
Marc:34.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you got married.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was that bullshit you had to deal with with that crazy girl?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:yeah it was a it was a very surreal wait how did that unfold well it somebody wrote a very horrible lie about me anonymously on a comment section yeah and then the sort of accused you of rape yes some girl you don't know her no yeah and the blogosphere went crazy went crazy and did their thing and uh
Guest:yeah it was it was you know it was very painful it was very how did you like the world was like upside down for a little bit and i just kind of did you detach from it what were you instructed to do well um eventually we filed like a libel lawsuit yeah um and uh and then eventually she recanted and said that it was all a lie and it was a hoax and you know it's anyway it's amazing how quickly that
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it taught me a lot about, I mean, I've never, I've always sort of hated the kind of depravity of our current internet culture.
Guest:The feeding frenzy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The predatory feeding frenzy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the way that people, you know, it's just, there's zero journalistic standards to anything.
Guest:None.
Guest:So, it's just, it's basically a game of telephone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That goes on.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But like- No one's credited.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No facts are checked.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, yeah, it was really hard.
Guest:And at this point, I'm just kind of trying to put it in the rearview mirror.
Guest:I mean, there's still like, you know, echoes in my mind for sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I also want to, you know, I want to put in perspective because, you know, I think about...
Guest:all the uh many african-american men who are in prisons right now for crimes they didn't commit you know and for actual victims of sexual assault right that has done the greatest disservice yeah too right you know and what you know they say one out of four women will experience will experience sexual assault in their lifetime and like that's staggering and crazy fucking horrible
Marc:So just something about those feelings, you know, that, that, you know, falsely accused by just, I mean, does that, has that played into any songs?
Guest:You know, I, I really haven't written any songs.
Guest:Like, I don't, I don't, I think I'm still processing it.
Guest:You know, I think it's still.
Marc:Do you write from that place though?
Marc:Have you written about like outside of poetic personal experiences, but you know, like real struggle?
Marc:Are you going to, how long have you been married?
Marc:It'll be four years in December.
Marc:Has that informed your love songs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, again, I think your whole life experience is going to play subconsciously into that creative process.
Guest:I mean, definitely being married has, I think, made me a more patient, happier person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:less rushing around sure like feeling like manic about you know i was just a workaholic for years and years and years you know yeah and i didn't think i you know breathed yeah music all the time yeah and now i've gotten to the point where i realize you know there's other important you know as important things gonna have a baby world we got a puppy oh yeah you're gonna have a baby you're gonna have one i don't know you got it
Guest:I didn't have one.
Guest:I don't know, man.
Guest:I mean, talking about all that and technology and the future, it scares me.
Guest:I don't like to... What about love, though, Connor?
Guest:Sometimes you got to bring it in.
Guest:I know.
Guest:They say that.
Guest:I'm like, well, you got to have kids and raise them right and all that.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I just see these like...
Guest:They're all kind of half robots now, like these little toddlers with their iPads and stuff.
Guest:Go off the grid.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Go buy yourself a house in the hills, man.
Marc:Go to the mountains.
Marc:Make it sparse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what was that song that I listened to about the freedom and love?
Marc:Is that on the new record?
Marc:Yep.
Guest:That's a good one.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:yeah freedom's the opposite of love because you can never keep it through your paranoia yeah which i think is true if you love someone you're always worried about them and everything that's interesting and with freedom you're just sort of like uh what does it really mean right foot footloose and fancy free kind of yeah i mean but in a bigger sense you know what is the cost of freedom you know what you know what what is the price of it and what is it really
Marc:It's such big shit.
Guest:Yeah, and it's definitely alluring.
Guest:The idea of, and I feel like I lived that way for a long time where I was just, not that I didn't have obligations, but I could kind of do what I wanted whenever I wanted and
Marc:i didn't stay in didn't stay in town for more than like a few weeks at a time like literally for years yeah and uh and i yeah i guess i don't i don't care to like really do that anymore well yeah the well the you know the the loneliness of that yeah of of not you know being anchored or or or making those kind of commitments to yeah to other person having that trust and building that stuff i mean yeah it's it depletes the meaning of things
Marc:yeah it's like there was that song that you know the road what is it the road will cure what is it the road nothing nothing the road cannot heal yeah yeah but you know that's weird and that might not be true that might not be a true statement well no but healing is an interesting thing because that doesn't mean that you ain't gonna be scarred right yeah so i mean i think it holds
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Well, I love that Towns line where he says, there's nothing prettier than looking back at a town you left behind.
Guest:That's one I've said to myself.
Guest:Well, let's end it there, man.
Marc:It was good talking to you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:We're going to play a song, right?
Marc:I'd be happy to.
Marc:All right.
Guest:He's my friend, he's no friend to me Just ask him why he'll tell you casually
Guest:Washed up bitter, broke and busted Backstabbed everyone he trusted Says he sees what no one else can see
Guest:But if I had half his guts I'd want it To chase that fatalistic comet And die young in the dark that's poetry But it was not to be No it was not For me
Guest:He's always sad, but I've never seen him cry When he comes to shirt, he'll apologize
Guest:Find his car, assess the damage Still drunk, but he likes a challenge Holds on to his mind just like a kite
Guest:But a good strong wind will keep you honest, fill you with some common knowledge.
Guest:Things when we were young, we never tried.
Guest:I figured we had time with such a long life.
Guest:Money clips, alligator shoes Just one more dance, he's in that champagne room
Guest:Where she moves like a chocolate fountain Pouring, spilling all around him Makes him wonder what else she can do
Guest:But how bittersweet is love's illusion Feelings that cannot be proven Just trust me, you'll see my aim is true I've done this all for you I suffered long for you
Guest:So many times he tried to play it straight.
Guest:He just worked and worked until his body ached.
Guest:But a brand new life will lose its luster Troubles tend to find each other Call it luck, or you can call it fate
Guest:But either way, it's how it happens Not the life that you imagine So just go out with a bang like Hemingway Some will say you're brave Some will say you ain't
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Awesome, man.
Marc:Cool.
Marc:Sounded great.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thanks for doing it.
Marc:My pleasure.
Marc:That was nice.
Marc:Guy's got a knack.
Marc:Got a knack for that songwriting.
Marc:Connor Oberst does.
Marc:Go to WTF Pod and do all your WTF Pod needs.
Marc:Get some posters.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Check my tour schedule at the calendar.
Marc:Check who's been on the show.
Marc:Pick up the app, perhaps.
Marc:I think we go straight into the amp with the Buddha.
Marc:The 335.
Marc:Straight in.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Marc:All tube distortion.
Marc:335.
Marc:The Buddha.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Boomer lives!