Episode 575 - Cameron Esposito
Marc:okay let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's going on i'm mark maron this is my show this is wtf
Marc:The podcast.
Marc:The podcast that's in its sixth year.
Marc:God, I hope I'm not stroking out again, man.
Marc:I just got to learn how to talk again.
Marc:I was just on the phone for a half an hour and I talked fine.
Marc:I talked well.
Marc:I talked good to the person I was talking to.
Marc:I was on the phone for 45 minutes with my father.
Marc:The other night.
Marc:That was exciting.
Marc:My father enjoys when I get aggravated.
Marc:That's when he starts laughing.
Marc:Look at the kid.
Marc:He's all worked up about something.
Marc:And he chuckles.
Marc:See, that's the relationship I have with my dad.
Marc:Look, it's out of me and it's in you.
Marc:Good luck.
Marc:Good luck with that.
Marc:Go dump it in the river.
Marc:So what is going on, people?
Marc:We just got done with the third week of shooting Marin on IFC.
Marc:It was a pretty fucking amazing week.
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:Let's get into present frame first.
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:Cameron Esposito.
Marc:is on the show today, and her most recent comedy album is called Same Sex Symbol, and you can get that on iTunes or anywhere.
Marc:You get your comedy albums.
Marc:Cameron Esposito also worked on the show Marin this week.
Marc:God, there's a lot of people coming through.
Marc:So you all know that I'm touring, right?
Marc:There was some issue with the San Francisco link, but that's all happening.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash calendar.
Marc:And see where I'm coming.
Marc:It's a long tour.
Marc:It goes to D.C.
Marc:It goes to Philly.
Marc:It goes to Boston.
Marc:It goes to Madison.
Marc:It goes to Pittsburgh.
Marc:It goes to outside Detroit, Toronto, Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Vancouver, San Fran, Asheville, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, Atlanta, Georgia, New Orleans, Louisiana, Rochester, New York.
Marc:Thank you for all the suggestions for your art.
Marc:Thank you for sending your art in for the tour posters.
Marc:I'm selecting them now.
Marc:That's happening.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:So this week on the show, and I think I told you I was going to work with these guys, but it's come to pass.
Marc:Elliot Gould played himself.
Marc:I can't give you too much about the show because this is the first episode of it.
Marc:of the third season, but I worked with Elliot Gould and Alex Rocco, who was Mo Green in The Godfather.
Marc:Elliot Gould played himself, Alex Rocco played another guy, and I'm doing scenes with these guys who are so ingrained in my mind.
Marc:How many times have you seen The Long Goodbye?
Marc:How many times have you seen MASH?
Marc:How many times have you seen The Godfather as part one and two?
Marc:Mo Green.
Marc:Great character actor.
Marc:And I'm doing scenes with the two of these guys just sitting there going like, I cannot believe this is happening.
Marc:But I'll tell you something.
Marc:The scene I did with Alex Rocco, which is one of the funniest things I've ever been part of.
Marc:It's going to be in the first episode of the third season of Marin.
Marc:I could not keep a straight face.
Marc:And I had that moment where, holy shit, this is a blast happening.
Marc:Like it's gotten to that point now that I'm in the third season where I feel a little more confident.
Marc:I feel comfortable with acting.
Marc:You know, I feel like I can let a little, I'm not freaking out as much and I can let a little of the intensity sort of, I don't need to panic at all, but I can just sort of let the comedy happen a little easier.
Marc:But this scene is a dark scene and Rocco just went to town.
Marc:And what we got out of it, I wish I could tell you more, but I'd rather you just wait.
Marc:I know it's a long tease, but I'd rather you wait for it until May, until when it comes out.
Marc:But God, it felt great.
Marc:And Lucy Davis from the original office is playing my British manager, Olivia, but she's Emily in the show.
Marc:And to work with Lucy Davis, the subtlety, just working with great actors is so amazingly fun.
Marc:I just hope I hold up.
Marc:I hope I am standing up to them.
Marc:But I'll tell you, when you work with great actors, it makes you look a lot better.
Marc:I work with Adam Goldberg also.
Marc:He's in an episode.
Marc:Constance Zimmer as well.
Marc:But me and Goldberg did some very funny scenes.
Marc:I love working with him.
Marc:He feels like my brother or something.
Marc:We're on the same spiritual, not spiritual, we're just on the same frequency of some kind.
Marc:But it's looking good.
Marc:I guess is what I'm telling you.
Marc:It's looking good.
Marc:It's coming along great.
Marc:I'd mentioned I did my first job as a DJ.
Marc:I went over to Gimme Gimme Records.
Marc:Dan relocated down on Fig into a nicer, bigger store.
Marc:Asked me to DJ for an hour.
Marc:I learned how to go in between the tables.
Marc:So that's something I can do now.
Marc:Skill.
Marc:Brought my records.
Marc:Went with some sort of classics.
Marc:Didn't try to impress.
Marc:Didn't nerd out.
Marc:Didn't do this sort of like, oh, you never heard this?
Marc:That's because it's really, because only I know about that song.
Marc:Didn't try to prove anything to the record nerds.
Marc:Played some Petty.
Marc:Played some Del Fuego's.
Marc:Played some Joe Jackson even.
Marc:Played some Costello.
Marc:Played some MC5.
Marc:Played some Wilson Pickett.
Marc:Mixed it up, man.
Marc:Mixed it up.
Marc:Cameron Esposito, who after this interview played a pretty big part on an episode of my show this season.
Marc:She had a small part last season, and she re... How do you say that?
Marc:She re-does the part.
Marc:Why is that word missing?
Marc:She plays the same part, just bigger this time.
Marc:And it was great talking to her.
Marc:So let's chat now with Cameron Esposito.
Guest:I think I'm writing a really interesting line for people.
Guest:Because I think there's a prettiness to my face.
Guest:Hot butch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I literally have a side mullet.
Guest:And this is people... A side mullet.
Guest:Did you make that up?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:Well, I did.
Guest:Yes, of course.
Guest:But I committed to this hairstyle, I think, before I realized what the hairstyle meant.
Guest:Which is, this is actually how it feels on the inside a little bit.
Marc:So you did this not saying, like, I need a gay flag.
Guest:So I'm going to do a side mullet.
Guest:You wouldn't believe how much this is not the gayest flag in the world.
Guest:There are no gay flags.
Marc:Not anymore.
Guest:I mean, certainly not for women.
Guest:I think like my fiance has like your haircut basically and dude still hit on her.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's just a very confusing.
Guest:Men are very confused by lesbians because they're not sure.
Guest:Like, am I invited here?
Guest:Are they there for me?
Guest:Like, have they just never been asked?
Guest:Is it because they haven't been asked?
Guest:If I just ask them, I get both of them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I get the couple.
Guest:I get to go home with the couple.
Marc:Well, I mean, there is that sort of point of view where I had an experience like years ago where the first woman that I really was in love with or had a real relationship with had come out of a relationship with a woman and then after me started another one.
Marc:And years later, she was with a woman.
Marc:And I remember I was going to visit her.
Marc:She invited me over to visit them in Connecticut.
Marc:And I'm like, maybe this is going to happen for me.
Marc:Maybe...
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Right.
Guest:What?
Marc:All right.
Guest:So please tell me.
Marc:But, you know, it was one of those things where it's like, I don't know what's going on, but, you know, maybe.
Guest:How did she contact you?
Guest:Is this like a phone call and email?
Marc:It wasn't like we're going to fuck.
Marc:It was like if you're in, you know, I know you're in town or if you're going to, you know, you want to come hang out with us.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was innocent.
Guest:No, I don't think it was.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:I am actually reading that she did not want to fuck you, not knowing anything else about this.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I don't know why that's why.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I automatically go there.
Marc:But I'm just answering to your idea of what men are thinking.
Marc:I thought, well, that might be interesting.
Marc:I was not thinking it was going to happen or it was about me, but I'm like, well, maybe something interesting could happen.
Marc:And then when they pulled up in her girlfriend's truck...
Guest:with like it was like right away i'm like oh this is not right nothing to do with bisexuality doesn't mean all at once necessarily it's just not gonna there's not this has nothing to do with me i think that if men actually got what they wanted you know like in terms of there's there's a really heightened um well there's a sexualization of lesbian sexuality because i think it's men's way of feeling included right so it's like well there's if i'm into this then i'm not excluded from this
Marc:But there's also the representation of lesbian sex for men.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's exactly what I'm saying.
Guest:If I can be into this, then it's still about me, even though I'm not there.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's still my thing.
Marc:Even though it's completely contrived.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They make it for men.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's some idea that men are like, two chicks, huh?
Marc:That'd be amazing.
Marc:It's like-
Guest:they actually saw what two chicks do together they'd be like oh my god be like i gotta get the fuck out of here this is overwhelming they are pleasing each other in a way that i do not understand because they have the same parts yeah it seems so hard and fast it's very hard and fast it's a lot less uh it's a lot less uh light tapping no delicate no there's a lot of digging yeah it's very diggy that's it you you are familiar with real lesbian sexual work yeah
Marc:Yeah, no, I actually I do a bit on stage about like the first time you actually see a woman masturbate in front of you.
Marc:You're like, oh, my God, that thing can take a beating.
Guest:Well, I do a bit about dudes not understanding lesbian porn because.
Guest:They're seeing these two women that are clearly not lesbians.
Guest:And it's not just the stuff that they're doing together.
Guest:It's like the whole aesthetic is hysterical how far apart that is.
Guest:And I know that that is also true because I still go in for parts here in L.A.
Guest:For lesbian porn parts?
Guest:Yeah, I go in for lesbian porn parts.
Guest:By that I mean the parts of a woman.
Guest:Too real.
Guest:No, I'll go in for an audition to play a lesbian.
Guest:Actually, I played a lesbian in your show.
Guest:You did for a little bit.
Guest:But I go in for parts to play lesbian and then it'll go to a Playboy Bunny or something.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:They're just like, yeah, yeah, we want to include you in this, but technically this is too much.
Marc:We're mainstream.
Marc:You're too much.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Too much lesbian.
Guest:I should lead with my long side is my point.
Guest:Kind of shimmy into the room right side first.
Marc:But you don't seem upset about this.
Marc:Are you upset about the misrepresentation of lesbian sex in the male-dominated porn industry?
Guest:I mean, it gives me something to fight for.
Guest:I think that it's really great as a comic to have something that is actually real that you have to fight for.
Guest:Being a woman and having that be pretty confusing in terms of mainstream culture, and then also being a lesbian and having that being pretty confused.
Guest:So I just feel like it's a great gift given the career that I chose that people don't understand what the hell is going on.
Marc:Well, it's interesting to me.
Marc:I think we should come around to it, not just get into it, is that, you know, what...
Marc:When you are in the gay community and you are out and you speak about being a lesbian, there seems to be this idea that just by virtue of that, there's social responsibility.
Marc:That, you know, I have to represent.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I don't know what your struggle with that has been or if it ever was, but we can kind of get into that later.
Marc:But where did you come from?
Marc:Because I don't know.
Marc:You're the generation, maybe a couple after me.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:And we met in New York, I think, and then we casted you on my show.
Marc:But where did you start doing stand-up?
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:You know, I'm from Chicago.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like in the city?
Guest:No, the burbs, like the hardcore suburbs of Chicago.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:I'm from a place called Western Springs.
Guest:It's adorable.
Guest:There's a milkman, literally a milkman, like when I was growing up.
Marc:Oh, yeah, right.
Guest:I think there still is one.
Marc:So there was like a metal box out front that they put the milk in?
Marc:Like a cooler.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And they put like bottles in there.
Guest:Still?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, this is, it was like idyllic.
Guest:Everybody knows everybody's- How old are you?
Marc:If you don't mind me asking.
Marc:I'm 32.
Marc:So I mean, this is like- They were sort of a holdover.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Frozen in time.
Guest:This is like a beautiful Pleasantville sort of situation where like the whole place is basically in black and white.
Marc:Middle class?
Marc:Working class?
Marc:Upper middle class?
Guest:No, upper middle class.
Guest:And right next to like a very, very wealthy suburb.
Guest:So we were kind of like the-
Guest:The like wrong side of the tracks, but in like a way where the wrong side of the tracks still get milk delivered.
Marc:The four bedroom ghetto.
Marc:The four bedroom house ghetto.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But the town next door is like where Dennis the Menace was filmed.
Marc:Really?
Guest:And the movie Backdraft.
Guest:So if you can imagine like it actually has red brick streets and stuff like that.
Marc:So it's a real American sort of feeling place.
Marc:Gorgeous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What did your dad do?
Guest:My dad's a lawyer.
Marc:So he's a lawyer.
Marc:What kind of lawyer?
Guest:He does like wrongful firings and stuff like that.
Marc:So he's on the good team?
Guest:He's on the good team, yeah.
Guest:He works for himself.
Guest:He has like a really small firm and he works super long hours and always has my entire life.
Marc:And your folks married?
Guest:Yeah, they've been together for 40 years.
Marc:How do you like that?
Guest:I mean, it's bizarre that I have 40 together.
Guest:My...
Guest:Can you imagine 40 years?
Guest:And they fought a lot when I was growing up.
Guest:And I think I thought that was them not liking each other.
Guest:But now that I'm the age that I am, I kind of realize maybe that was them figuring out how to stay together.
Marc:And you have brothers and sisters?
Marc:I'm in the middle.
Marc:I have two sisters.
Marc:So you're all girls?
Guest:All girls.
Marc:Are you the only gay one?
Guest:I am the only gay one and my sisters are very girly, hyper girly girls.
Guest:Like my older sisters, she still is a modern dancer as a kid.
Guest:She was a ballerina.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's nice.
Marc:So your parents must have been pretty supportive of the artistic track.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My little sister lives in Argentina and she's like an actor and teaches Spanish theater.
Guest:She teaches theater in Spanish.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Everybody in my family has like...
Guest:I mean, my older sister is also a lawyer now, but she works for the city of Chicago doing their arts programming.
Guest:So she like uses her degree.
Marc:Well, this is a very uplifting sort of progressive story we're in right now.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I mean, it's weird that we all got out because not I don't think that any of those jobs were considered options.
Guest:I'm not from like a place where people have arts jobs.
Marc:Right, but your parents must have been like, well, they're going to do what they want.
Marc:They must have afforded you the luxury of that.
Guest:They were very supportive.
Guest:They were really supportive, but also very conservative.
Guest:I mean, I have like the kind of parents that they would like come and live in my house if I would let them.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like that kind of like I have like...
Guest:hovery, adorable.
Guest:My dad is a small Italian man who cries all the time because he's like so happy about you.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like he'll call me.
Guest:Are both your parents Italian?
Guest:Yeah, but they're like from different parts of Italy.
Guest:So my mom is really tall and she has red hair.
Guest:She's from Northern Italy.
Guest:And my dad is kind of small and like they look...
Marc:But they were both from here, were they?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Your grandparents?
Guest:But they grew up in the kind of Italian Catholic families where everybody's name is Carla or Carl or Victor or Vito.
Marc:Every Sunday the family would get together kind of deal.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And the only reason I don't look like that is because my dad was adopted.
Guest:But if my dad wasn't adopted into that family, I would have chest hair.
Guest:It's like that level of Italian.
Marc:He was adopted?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Does he know where from?
Marc:Did he ever do that thing?
Guest:He found his, so right at the same time I was coming out.
Marc:When was that?
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:I was 20 and I was living in Boston, going to school there.
Marc:Where?
Guest:I went to Boston College, which is a very conservative Catholic school.
Guest:I know what it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You were like, you did all this stuff.
Guest:I did all this stuff.
Guest:I was a theology major.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:No, I'm serious.
Guest:I thought I was maybe going to be a priest.
Guest:But you can't in the Catholic Church, so I don't really know what I thought the end game was.
Marc:Okay, wait.
Marc:So how much Catholicism were you brought up with?
Guest:Oh, I mean, like, just very hardcore.
Guest:Like, I went to Catholic grade school, high school.
Marc:But did you believe it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, I was an altar server.
Guest:I was a Eucharistic minister.
Guest:I did believe in hell.
Guest:Yeah, and I did believe in hell for gay people.
Marc:I'm sorry if I'm putting that for gay people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's a horrible burden.
Guest:I didn't like, I didn't, I wasn't very judgy.
Guest:Like I never went and tried to convert other people, but I just felt like there was a real black and white line for myself.
Marc:But I don't mean to put it in the past tense.
Marc:You may still believe in hell.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Zero amounts of, yeah, zero amounts of that.
Guest:All of that went away pretty quickly.
Marc:I just, I got an email recently that I seem to be a little bit condescending towards Catholics.
Marc:And I always assume that Catholics after a certain age pull away from it.
Guest:I can't imagine not.
Guest:I am so angry with the Catholic Church because culturally that's my background.
Guest:You know, like that's where I'm from and those are supposed to be my people.
Guest:And it still kind of feels comfortable to hear those things because those are the words from my childhood.
Marc:In Latin or no?
Guest:Not in Latin, but like...
Guest:Just mass and all that stuff felt really good.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like my home there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think the Catholic Church is the worst.
Guest:I mean, that's me.
Guest:I think it is the worst because it is an organization that touches every country in the world and can do so much good.
Guest:And it touches little boys.
Guest:And they touch every country in the world physically with their hands.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:It's awful.
Guest:Well, the way they treat women.
Guest:I would say the way that they treat women, it's shocking to me that more people don't talk about the way the Catholic Church treats women.
Marc:Yeah, well, they seem to be quite pushed aside into one specific role.
Marc:If they have a role, it's this strange nun.
Marc:It's a walking womb.
Guest:Yeah, it's a walking womb.
Marc:Angry womb.
Marc:A useless womb.
Guest:It's a walking useless womb.
Guest:Empty womb.
Guest:And nuns, like those women, you know, they take vows of poverty and they live with the people that they're serving.
Guest:And priests often don't.
Guest:You know, priests can be, they can work for the city that they live in.
Guest:They don't have to work for a particular order.
Marc:And also just the power and empire and politics of the Catholic Church and how relevant and insanely powerful it was for years.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, there is something glorious in the fact that it's losing so much traction, if indeed it is.
Marc:I don't know how people hold on to it.
Marc:I guess that...
Marc:That believers are willing to dismiss anything as being isolated episodes of just bad eggs.
Guest:I think it's that cultural thing.
Guest:If it feels like home, if people say something to you enough, then those just feel like the words that you speak.
Marc:Sure, and it's so ornate.
Marc:Oh, yeah, it's gorgeous.
Guest:They own tons of land.
Guest:They own land in great locations.
Marc:Have you gone to Italy?
Guest:Yeah, I lived in Rome for a while.
Marc:But I mean, just to go, even the smallest towns that have a cathedral, if you walk in and you're like, holy shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because they wanted to be awe inspiring because they had to, you know, really brain fuck the poor of every country with this amazing new structures and art.
Marc:I was very impressed.
Guest:And the history is really, I mean, there's so much cool because it, because it was, it is such a through line to people that have lived in the past.
Guest:You know, the idea that there's like bones of saints in churches.
Marc:I got St.
Marc:Catherine's head right here on the wall.
Guest:Oh yeah, you do?
Guest:Yeah, it's right there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I went to the... Where is that?
Guest:Siena?
Marc:Is that what it is?
Guest:Is that the Catherine that got beheaded?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Where, like, her head is in one place and her body's somewhere else.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, like, I got the head.
Marc:You know, who knows if it's really her head?
Marc:But sort of fascinating.
Marc:Relics are fascinating.
Marc:I mean, it's amazing.
Marc:Yeah, it's all very creepy, fucking dark stuff, man.
Marc:I mean, you know, you go to Rome and you go to... Catholicism is so death-oriented.
Marc:And they just put it right out there.
Marc:It's like, the body's right there?
Marc:Yeah, it's right in there.
Marc:There's pieces and bodies everywhere.
Marc:Hell yeah.
Guest:I don't know if you noticed this at all, but saints that are martyred, people that are martyred for the church that become saints afterwards, when they paint them, they paint them with the instrument of their death.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So anytime you see somebody who was martyred, so there are dudes that were skinned alive and they're holding just a folded over version of their body.
Marc:Oh, I didn't know that.
Guest:Or like a little mini grill because they were burned.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And anytime anybody's with a sword, that's because that makes sense because the cross is so prevalent.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:That's that's why that is keeping in line with all the rest of that.
Marc:But it's just so the death obsession of Catholicism is just mind blowing to me that.
Marc:And I don't even know why it exists, really.
Guest:I mean, it's because we're going to rise again.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:The body's just a vessel.
Marc:Why get why not have a dead one around?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just get to the next thing.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:So you believe in heaven, too.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah, I believed in all.
Guest:I mean, all of it.
Marc:And your dad being a sweet, crying man who supports the arts.
Marc:It's hard for me to it's hard to consolidate that the the weird point of view of Catholicism being so, so strict and so black and white and so mythological with with a guy who seems relatively practical.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think that's the Italian part there also.
Marc:Yeah, it's cultural, right?
Guest:Italian men are so sweet and, like, you know, want to... Right.
Guest:The women are the ones in power.
Marc:So you're a young Catholic girl.
Marc:You're doing all the things.
Marc:You're doing what?
Marc:You're giving out wafers?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did that at church.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:Like, I started that when I was 18, when I went to school.
Marc:When you were 18?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you were doing that in college?
Guest:I was doing this in college.
Guest:This is... I would... Yes, this is my... Yes.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:How... I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'd go to daily mass.
Guest:When did you know you were gay?
Guest:The first time I ever kissed a woman when I was 20.
Guest:I mean, I really didn't know, which is bizarre.
Guest:I understand that it's bizarre, but I didn't know.
Marc:So during your childhood and the idea of the sort of horrible sentence of hell for gay people was not something way on your conscience because you weren't aware of it.
Guest:I wasn't aware of it.
Guest:I even found a paper that I wrote for religion class when I was junior or senior.
Guest:I found it after I'd come out, just this old floppy disk, and I looked down there, and there was a paper about we had to write what we thought happened to- This was in college?
Guest:This was in high school.
Guest:We had to write what we thought happened to gay people.
Guest:We had to write a paper about what we thought happened to gay people.
Guest:What did you say?
Guest:I said that I wasn't gay, so I couldn't possibly know whether or not it was a choice, so therefore I couldn't condemn anybody.
Guest:That's what I said.
Marc:Which is amazing.
Marc:Well, what do you attribute that to?
Marc:Were you shut down?
Guest:I think I attribute to a couple of things.
Guest:I didn't know any gay people.
Guest:Zero gay people.
Guest:I mean, all the people that I knew.
Marc:They didn't have drama at your high school?
Guest:No, but nobody was out.
Guest:I mean, they did.
Guest:But my closest friends that now have come out, they were just like...
Guest:sensitive actors yeah nobody nobody was out no and the and our teachers not into each other not even in secret no i got a problem i sucked a day nope no if that was happening i don't i didn't know about it yeah um and the teachers that we had that were very effeminate or very butch you know they were like priests and nuns seriously look i have a full i like and i've put this theory out there before and i know it to be true in my mind that i think that
Marc:that gay-leaning men in the communities, in Catholic communities, were pushed into the priesthood out of fear.
Marc:And the community was sort of like, you should really become a priest.
Marc:They're trying to save them.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And that's also part of the reason that this whole problem has happened, because those people were not allowed to live...
Marc:a full sexual life.
Marc:It gets a little tricky identifying them as homosexuals as opposed to pedophiles.
Marc:I'm not saying they're gay.
Guest:I'm saying that if you are able to be gay you can live a great and actually I would say the same thing about straight men.
Guest:Straight men that are priests.
Guest:If you are able to be straight and live a full sexual life you might not end up doing something that's messed up.
Marc:So what the hell were you doing when you became sexually alive?
Guest:So I was dating men.
Guest:I dated men for a really long time.
Guest:I dated the captain of the football team in high school.
Guest:I was like, we were the class couple.
Guest:And I thought that's, I just thought nobody really cared about sex.
Marc:Were you a jock?
Guest:Yeah, I was like a big athlete and I was like the mascot of the football team.
Guest:I saw you do a joke about that.
Guest:I was like super involved and really committed to school.
Guest:Yeah, you seem like you're on top of shit.
Guest:I was on top of shit.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, I was a mess.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:I was in love with my best friend.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:I just thought that's how women felt.
Marc:So this is all in retrospect.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Guest:Because I think women also have that kind of more expansive view of the way they can be friends with each other.
Guest:You know, like if dudes are really close, when you're a little kid, somebody's going to come up to you and they're going to call you a name.
Guest:They're going to call you what they think you are.
Guest:And then maybe you'll start to wonder if that's what you are.
Guest:But for women, that happens a lot less.
Guest:I think like you can just be a jock.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can just have really close friendships.
Guest:You can have sleepovers.
Guest:You can hug each other.
Guest:And none of it means anything unless it does.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I just thought that's how everybody felt.
Marc:So you were having sleepovers, hugging each other?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would go to sleep at my best friend's house.
Marc:Not on a sleepover?
Marc:Just any night of the week?
Guest:We would have sleepovers.
Guest:But she had seven older brothers and sisters that no longer lived at home.
Guest:And I would insist on sleeping in her bed.
Guest:Even though there was nine other bedrooms?
Guest:There were like nine other bedrooms.
Yeah.
Guest:But I just was like really committed to sleeping in her bed, but I just thought that's how best friends were.
Marc:But you never felt a sexual feeling.
Marc:You just felt connected.
Guest:No, I think I did, but I don't think I knew what sexual feelings were.
Marc:That's astounding to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You must have been pretty shut down.
Guest:I mean, I think I was very confused.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I would have dreams about women.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And when you were with men-
Marc:We don't need to keep talking about it, but why not?
Guest:No, I mean, I'm happy to talk about it because this is real.
Marc:Well, right.
Guest:And I think this actually happens to a lot more women than.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, men, like I said, they're labeled so much earlier.
Guest:And a lot of the women that I've dated, a lot of gay women that I know had like a similar experience to this.
Marc:They were just shut down and thought they were weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Women aren't supposed to get in touch with their sexualities.
Guest:I don't know if you ever heard what it's like to be a teen girl, but you're all about like his blowjob.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, nobody's trying to figure out like whether or not you're like, hey, what are you jerking off to?
Guest:Nobody gives a shit.
Guest:You're not supposed to be touching yourself.
Marc:That's guy talk.
Marc:Well, that's a Catholic thing, too, though.
Guest:Yeah, it is a Catholic thing.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:But I think it's also a thing for women.
Guest:You know, I think women are not really taught to find what they like.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Of course they're not.
Guest:It's all about finding out what he likes so that you can turn him on.
Marc:And that's supposed to be satisfying to you somehow.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Well, you made him come.
Marc:Isn't that great?
Marc:Yeah, it's easy.
Marc:You did a great job.
Marc:What a trick that is.
Marc:How hard is that, really, to make a guy come?
Marc:That's really hard because it's a penis.
Marc:It's supposed to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you have all these feelings that are not identified until much later in your life.
Marc:You're curious about religion.
Marc:Well, first, let's get back to the head of the football team.
Marc:What was that guy like?
Guest:He was really nice.
Guest:We were really good friends, and I liked talking to him.
Guest:He was handsome.
Guest:I mean, I know what good-looking men look like.
Marc:How long did you date him?
Guest:I dated him for like three and a half years.
Guest:I had boyfriends in college also.
Marc:Did you have sex with him?
Guest:This is a really weird debatable.
Guest:How can the answer to this be debatable?
Guest:But I don't know because like, uh, I also was pretty committed to waiting for marriage because I didn't know that like that was supposed to be a difficult thing to do.
Marc:Was there also guilt around it because of a Catholic?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So, but I, I think also it was a great excuse, you know, like it was the twofer where it was like, you could hold on, you could hold the line.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Because of your beliefs.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just like, oh man, as much as I want to and believe me.
Guest:Yeah, I want.
Guest:I really want to.
Guest:Oh, man.
Marc:I... So, no.
Guest:I would... He would go home.
Guest:I just have memories of... You know, like, he would go home after we'd be hanging out, like, making out in my parents' basement or something.
Guest:Dry humping.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, I mean, it felt nice because kissing feels nice.
Guest:But it was never, like...
Guest:I also felt gross.
Guest:Like it felt, I had like weird rules, like he couldn't touch my shoulders and stuff like that.
Guest:I mean, just, you know, like normal heterosexual female rules that they have for men.
Marc:No shoulder touching.
Marc:I've heard that a lot from a lot of women.
Marc:Please no shoulder touching.
Guest:And he would go home and I just remember that I would need to stay up.
Guest:for like a bunch of hours like i would have if he left at 10 or whatever i'd have to stay up to like four o'clock in the morning and i would like eat cereal you know just like do like what are like the most these like really comforting things like right i would eat cereal i would watch tv you were just all jacked up i was just like i had to get it back out of my body like whatever had been happening yeah you know i just couldn't deal with it
Marc:Because the feelings were overwhelming or was it like it felt uncomfortable?
Marc:It was so uncomfortable.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:But I liked him.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:So you just couldn't understand.
Guest:I couldn't understand why I would feel so uncomfortable hanging out.
Guest:And you had no one to talk to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was no person that would have been able to identify this.
Marc:It doesn't sound like it was misery, but it was frustrating.
Guest:I think probably it would have been misery if I had had any idea that it was supposed to feel different than that.
Guest:You know, like, does that make any sense?
Marc:Yeah, sure, sure.
Guest:Like, if you've never seen the sun, you're going to be like, darkness is decent.
Marc:Yeah, it's a little weird.
Guest:It's decent to good.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you were just sort of like, I guess this is life.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, I understand that.
Marc:But I think everyone feels that to a certain degree.
Marc:And those kind of frustrations are communicable.
Marc:I mean, you must have been talking about boys at some level to somebody.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, all my best friends were dating dudes.
Guest:And, you know, we talked about our guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not like he wasn't attractive.
Guest:You know, it's not like I didn't look at him and think like, oh, he's so cute.
Guest:Like, I wished...
Marc:I thought he was so cute.
Marc:I just couldn't figure out what to do with how cute he was.
Marc:Never sort of like, got to get that cock.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, got to get that cock away from me.
Guest:Put it back in its car and send it home.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Thank God that didn't come out.
Marc:That seems a little scary.
Marc:So why theology, though, ultimately?
Marc:I mean, what we...
Marc:So you were a believer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You go to college.
Marc:When did God go away?
Marc:When he kissed a girl?
Guest:Well, a little bit before that, because I started realizing how the Catholic Church treated women.
Guest:That kind of happened right before.
Guest:So it was intellectual.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, I will say that I think the reason I was interested in it is because I was interested in what's important to people, which is still what I'm interested in now.
Guest:That's the same thing as comedy.
Guest:You're just talking about what's important to you and trying to hear what's important to other people.
Guest:And like live in the world in that connected way.
Marc:It's the same thing.
Guest:You know, it's just and if you read religious texts like kind of poetry or if you, you know, absorb them on like a really superficial level, if you don't take them literally.
Guest:And I don't think I I think after a while I wasn't taking them literally, but I was just like, this is a cool way to live.
Guest:You know, it's cool to live.
Marc:There was something about the idea of faith.
Marc:Of that making people feel more comfortable in the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also like working for the outsider, which is eventually where because I kind of swayed towards a much more leftist view of Catholicism because there actually is like a pretty.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They've been around for liberation theology.
Marc:The marchers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would go on those marches.
Guest:I went to like.
Guest:uh the school of the americas which is where they train people to do the assassinations in like south and central america on american soil and i would go to protest there and i would go and do like solidarity trips in foreign countries not to like convert people but just to kind of like be present to be like a witness to poverty good catholic yeah isn't that like the nicest thing in the world a college kid could do is just like go spend spring break with like a really poor jamaican person of course it's so nice of me yeah because i had no skills
Marc:Then you get the sun and you also feel like you're doing something important.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:Where are these countries that you went to?
Marc:You went to Jamaica?
Guest:Yeah, I went to Jamaica.
Guest:I went to the Navajo Nation.
Guest:I went all over the U.S.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You went to the, we were in Arizona?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In New Mexico, in Arizona, in Arizona.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What was that march?
Guest:it was on march just like uh we spent like i spent like two weeks just going to like the local organizations there and just kind of learning about it's like another planet isn't it yeah it is i mean at the time like uh hiv was one of the biggest issues that they were dealing with because like condoms were not generally accepted as a form of birth control right so that was like a huge hiv was there a lot of drug use too
Guest:Um, alcohol, I know alcohol, alcohol stuff, but not like, not, um, not like alcohol, alcohol, like mixing chemicals together to like make something that would intoxicate you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The bad, like industrial hairspray.
Guest:People were drinking hairspray a lot because that'll, that'll, um, that'll affect your body.
Guest:But also it like does the same thing to the inside of your body that it does to your hair.
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:So you spent two weeks there.
Marc:I have no idea what that's like.
Marc:I've read a book or two on the condition of the Indian population at that time.
Marc:It's just devastating.
Marc:They're so isolated.
Guest:It was also really wild just going into a grocery store and seeing that everybody there was visibly Native American because it made me realize how often I didn't see those types of faces.
Guest:This is just domestically.
Guest:This is just in our...
Marc:What'd you learn there?
Marc:I mean, what'd you walk away from that with in general?
Marc:Like even Jamaica, I mean, what do you, you know, what did it do to your heart?
Marc:Anything?
Marc:Or did you just feel like?
Guest:No, I think, I think all that stuff just made me realize like how, like what you can do to help.
Guest:And I think that what you can do to help is sometimes being on the ground.
Guest:You know, I would see people that really had skills, you know, that really had skills that were really like there and committed.
Guest:And then other than that, you know, just realizing, like, how much we need to support those people.
Marc:That are in trouble.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, like, support the people that are, you know, committed to staying there and committed to helping.
Guest:Oh, yeah, that's right.
Guest:Like, legislation and things like that, you know, like, this is not... No.
Guest:That's not the way to do it, you know, it's like...
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Or blathering about it on television.
Marc:The unsung heroes are the people that are like, we're feeding them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I would also say like people that live in that community, in the different communities that I was in that are like the Jamaicans that are helping Jamaicans or I did some stuff in Rome as well where it would be like Roman people serving Roman people a soup kitchen.
Guest:And I just think like that's also an even more powerful tool than just thinking that you can come in and solve anything.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because I can't solve anything.
Marc:Right, it's volunteering.
Marc:It's being selfless.
Marc:It's service, which is a big part of the Christian deal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And getting out there and do it.
Marc:But who has time for that?
Marc:Thank God those people are out there.
Guest:I agree.
Marc:You go over there, you give them a pat on the back.
Marc:This is great.
Marc:Thanks for what you're doing.
Marc:I'm going to go home.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it is, I think also just realizing a limitation to realizing that you're like a piece of shit who's just getting on with their life is also a powerful thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's real.
Guest:You know, we're not...
Marc:We're not all saints.
Guest:We're sending tweets out.
Marc:Yeah, are we?
Marc:Yeah, go fuck ourselves.
Guest:We're not doing anything.
Marc:I feel bad about it, but because of that, I try not to pay any self-righteous lip service to causes because I don't think that's really doing it.
Marc:I'd rather just accept the fact that, look, I share my life and if it helps people, that's great, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm some big message guy or carry the burden of like, hey, I donated some money to some place.
Marc:Does that make me something?
Guest:Well, I think actually this is an interesting way to go back to what you were just asking me earlier, which is like, I think there is something also to realizing like your own community that you can kind of witness to and connect to.
Guest:So that same way that like, oh, there's these people that are spending their lives like that.
Guest:Like, I am just a silly stand up comic.
Guest:I just tell jokes in bars while people are, you know.
Guest:Hopefully not getting too drunk to pay attention.
Guest:But at the same time, I know that when I was coming out, if I had heard somebody like me talking about their life, that would have helped me so much, you know, and like the kind of stuff that you talk about, about like eating or drug use or depression or mental illness.
Guest:It makes a huge difference.
Guest:It's the best thing you can do in the world is just talk about your own stuff, because like the more personal you are to you, you know, the more you're connecting to the people that are suffering in that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In that community.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then once you sort of get through that or what the weird thing is, is like only an individual can decide what their civic or social responsibility really is.
Marc:And I think that a lot of people just sort of avoid it.
Marc:Like, you know, I vote, you know, and I do what I can.
Marc:You know, you don't.
Marc:But like some people find it in their hearts to dedicate their lives to that.
Marc:And thank God they're out there, you know, because they're the ones that really are out there feeding people.
Marc:I'm glad they're there.
Marc:I'm not one of them.
Marc:No, we're not one of them.
Marc:Yeah, but I'm okay with that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do what I can.
Marc:Right?
Guest:I think you're doing great, Mark.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Unburden me.
Guest:I just think...
Guest:I don't know that that's what I should have been doing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You can't beat yourself up with that.
Guest:But I also don't believe in the Catholic Church.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't think there's a God.
Guest:I don't know that I should be in Jamaica talking to Jamaicans.
Guest:I am a white person from the suburbs of Chicago.
Guest:I'm not the one to tell that story, but I can get up in front of people and it doesn't make me uncomfortable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm sure the number of times that you've heard this massively outnumbers mine, but the number of people that are always like, I don't know how you do this job.
Guest:I don't know how you're a stand-up comic.
Guest:That's such a weird, crazy job.
Guest:I don't know how I am either.
Guest:Number one, I don't know how I am either, but also just different people have different skills.
Guest:Bodies are built for different things, and I should never be a doctor.
Marc:That's not true, necessarily.
Marc:You think I should be a doctor?
Marc:No, I don't think you should be, but I think after a certain point, you accept who you are and don't use that other shit to beat the shit out of yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it seems like you could have been whatever you wanted.
Marc:And frankly, we're all disappointed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, Dad.
Guest:So sorry to let you down.
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:I'm happy as long as you're happy.
Guest:It took a long time to get that.
Guest:Thank you so much for delivering that via your face from somebody else I needed to hear that from.
Marc:No one's disappointed.
Marc:But you carry that stuff.
Marc:But it's weird about the church, too, is that as awful as it may be politically and as an entity in the world, the Catholic Church, they are the ones feeding people.
Guest:Or just giving the solace of having a place to go where we can all hang out with each other.
Guest:And I guess that's, again, how I would compare it to stand-up.
Guest:Because it's just about feeling like it's okay to all gather.
Guest:Human beings want to be so close to each other, but we are so confused as to where the boundaries are and how to do it.
Guest:And so when you say, hey, this is a stand-up show, and people will sit down.
Marc:on top of each other just like oh this is normal because they gave me a reference they gave me like a matrix so this makes sense now you ever walk into a stand-up room and it's like not filled and there's like 15 people there and like i wouldn't sit there no there's no one here let's get out of here right it's always i would never go to a stand-up show well yeah i i actually would never go to a stand i wouldn't go to one where i felt the onus of like sort of like well i'm one of 12 people yeah it's a lot of pressure pressure
Marc:All right, so did you get the theology degree?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a faith, peace, and justice minor.
Marc:A faith, peace, and justice minor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you think you were going to go to law school?
Guest:I went to social work school for a while.
Marc:You did?
Marc:I thought I was going to be a social worker.
Guest:Okay, so that- That was like the evolution of that, where I was like, well, it's- So it is in you.
Marc:You did have to fight that struggle of being of service to the world and of service to yourself.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I was going to social work school during the day and I was doing comedy at night.
Guest:I was doing improv, like professionally even.
Guest:And I remember one of my like fellow students came up to me and was just like, hey, she was a little bit older.
Guest:Like I think it was, she was returning to school, that kind of person where like she'd had another career.
Guest:She was returning.
Guest:And she literally came up to me and said like, hey, what are you doing here?
Marc:And I was like- At social work school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I'm, I don't know.
Guest:I guess I thought I was like-
Guest:I don't know, helping people?
Guest:She was like, this is very expensive.
Guest:If you can't answer that question, you should just not do this and do the other thing that you talk about all the time in class.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was really cut and dry about it.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I thank that woman so much because I did quit.
Guest:so don't waste your time our money yeah or also just like i mean i was paying like you have to pay to go to social work school you get like no money right right so she just checked your heart yeah she was just like hey you don't need to be doing this yeah i don't know who you're trying to prove something to like jesus do the thing you want to do yeah exactly that guy is so judgmental yeah yeah i need to do this for jesus
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So, when you did kiss a girl, was that like, holy shit, why didn't I do this sooner?
Guest:It was completely... Actually, this... So, this happened right after I got back from that trip to Jamaica.
Guest:That's when that happened.
Guest:And the only reason that I include that is because I kissed this woman.
Guest:I was dating two guys at the time.
Guest:And I went to three parties that night, the night that I kissed her.
Guest:I went to a party with one of the dudes I was dating, a party with the other dudes.
Marc:BC parties?
Marc:Yeah, like just on-campus parties.
Guest:Yeah, they were...
Guest:They were really raucous.
Marc:I went to BU.
Marc:I know the BC guys.
Guest:Yeah, I lived right near them for a while.
Marc:Just like Irish-y looking.
Marc:Pretty Irish-y.
Marc:Preppy and jocks.
Guest:I mean, I dated one guy who had a really long beard.
Marc:So, I mean, it wasn't that preppy.
Marc:How many things have changed?
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:You're younger than me.
Marc:No, it's pretty preppy.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Guest:but i dated or i kissed those two dudes after and then i kissed her different parties at two different the last party was the chick yeah and she was um i kissed her and it was life-changing i mean completely uh yes yeah we had split a giant bottle of yellowtail wine like a like magnum size so you go to two like sort of you know kind of dude parties like you know college things where was the last party
Guest:Actually, she had come with me to these parties, so we just went back to my room.
Guest:So she was hanging out?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A little gathering?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just you two?
Guest:Yeah, we were hanging out there, finishing some wine.
Guest:And then, I don't remember what she said, probably something about poverty.
Guest:But...
Guest:kiss her that hot yeah yeah i kissed her and it was i mean it was completely it was like my first sexual experience you know i mean it really was and i knew immediately that something was very different and it was like watching i say this on stage but this is 100 true it would be like watching a movie with like the director's commentary that you never understood like you never understood the movie and then suddenly like the director's explaining it and you're like oh
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Like, that's why I never wore like a top to my bikini bottoms when I was a little child because I like had some gender stuff going on.
Guest:And oh, like, that's why I want to sleep in my best friend's bed when there were all those available.
Guest:Like, I just it all happened at once.
Guest:Like, I flooded through every.
Marc:So your whole life all of a sudden just made sense.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Like a Rubik's Cube.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just like solved in one move.
Guest:Like a kiss just solves a Rubik's Cube.
Guest:Bam, that's what's happening.
Guest:But the next morning I woke up and I had facial, I had ringworm.
Guest:I had contracted ringworm in Jamaica, which is a fungus.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And it grows in a circle.
Guest:So I had got it on my face.
Guest:And it had not shown up until the morning after I kissed this girl for the first time, which as a Catholic person who thinks that they might be going to hell because they've just discovered they have same sex attraction is like probably one of the craziest things that could happen to you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Especially if you've seen the movie The Exorcist.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Satan's in you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Satan's in you.
Guest:He's trying to get out.
Marc:It's only a matter of time before the three sixes appear in the circle.
Marc:And it's not going to go away.
Marc:No.
Guest:oh so you're terrifying so there was uh that just uh exacerbated shame religion-based shame yeah absolutely i was so ashamed of myself and i did end up dating that girl she was my first girlfriend but i didn't stop dating those other guys for years how'd you let's walk through the day of ringworm what was um i got on a plane and went to go visit my family because it was easter
Marc:But did you put makeup on?
Guest:Nope, I just had like a giant flaming thing on my face.
Marc:And you had no idea what it was?
Guest:I had no idea what it was.
Guest:And when I got there, the second I got off the plane, my parents were like, we have to take you at the hospital.
Guest:Something terrible has happened to you.
Marc:They didn't know either.
Guest:Yeah, they didn't know what it was either.
Guest:So we were sitting in the hospital.
Marc:Pretty innocuous.
Marc:I mean, it's no big deal.
Guest:You just put like a cream on it.
Guest:But it's also really contagious.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So I had to call all of those people because there totally would have been a chance that like everybody would have gotten it.
Guest:And also the girl, you know, like I am at this school where at the time I could have been kicked out of school for being gay.
Guest:But it's so hilarious because you didn't fuck anybody.
Guest:So you get this weird information like I might have given you this weird fungal.
Guest:It's the weirdest non-STD call in the world.
Guest:I might have given you a fungus on your face.
Guest:You would know if there's a circle.
Marc:It's weird that it shows up on your face.
Marc:Usually it's on your feet or your arms.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I was just in like some weird places in Jamaica.
Guest:I don't know how it came on my face.
Marc:That's a lucky one to get.
Marc:It's not like hookworm or liver flukes.
Marc:It's like ringworm.
Marc:It's not that uncommon.
Marc:You get it at camp.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And did anyone get it?
Guest:Nobody got it.
Guest:No.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:Nobody got it.
Guest:Because we're all kind of in the same circle of friends.
Guest:Like it would have been pretty intense.
Marc:So you treat your ringworm and you go back and you're dating this woman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're dating the two guys.
Guest:I'm dating the two guys.
Marc:But you're not doing anything with anybody really.
Yeah.
Guest:I was totally having sex with her.
Marc:With her?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that happened quickly?
Guest:Happened very quickly.
Marc:And she was gay?
Guest:Yes, but like... Or were you both finding out at the same time?
Guest:We were finding out at the same time, yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:That's an exciting way to go about it.
Guest:It was really rad.
Guest:Like, there was no teacher-student.
Guest:We were both very...
Guest:much like learning how to do it which was really cool and also like it was awful to be I mean because I hid it you know I wasn't out she was out to her friends so I would like go to her place and stuff like that but I'll say this like I wish that that's not how my life had been I wish I hadn't been ashamed of myself and I wish I hadn't had to hide but I will tell you like some of the best sex you're going to have in your life is like secret gay sex yeah
Guest:Secret gay sex that you're hiding from your boyfriend.
Marc:There's a lot of straight people that agree with you.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:There's a lot of Republican senators who agree with me.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, so it was like really exciting and new.
Marc:And what was the sort of process of coming out to your family?
Guest:I told my folks that- Did you have to prepare?
Marc:Did you sort of go through it in your head?
Guest:I was so upset.
Guest:I was disgusted with myself.
Marc:Still ashamed.
Guest:I was disgusted with what was happening.
Marc:But you were having a great time.
Marc:So those were both happening at the same time.
Guest:Yes, both having the same time.
Marc:So you were keeping the guys around.
Guest:Amazing sex.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:To sort of placate your shame.
Guest:Just be like, maybe in case I can talk myself out of this.
Guest:Like, I still have these dudes in case, like, in case I can get married, in case I can have babies.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:If this doesn't stick.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I told my folks, because I, like, I got home for the summer.
Guest:And I, I mean, I was just a wreck.
Guest:Like, I wasn't sleeping or eating.
Marc:This was sophomore year, yeah.
Guest:I wasn't eating or sleeping.
Guest:I was, like.
Marc:Because you were plagued with shame.
Guest:yes and well i just also thought my life was over you know i didn't know any gay adults oh so you're like no family no kids no yes exactly i was like well i'm gonna i don't know where i'm gonna live you know but it's not gonna be in a safe place yeah exactly i have to find the gay capital and i won't be able to have normal friends and i won't be able to have a job you know like i mean really i just didn't think that anything was gonna be all that and the fact that that's all happening to you at 20
Marc:You know, like where you're, you know, conscious and, you know, all, you know, you're a thinking person.
Marc:You've got your shit together and it's sort of like this desire thing is fucking me.
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to be done.
Guest:Like I'm all, you know, I'm right trying to figure out what my job is going to be, my career and like move forward and just become an adult.
Guest:And it's already all done.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've already ruined my whole life.
Marc:You're doomed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's horrible.
Guest:It was pretty bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Guest:So I told my folks, my dad cried for five years.
Marc:Five years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He cried for five years.
Marc:Like every time I would talk to him.
Marc:What did you say to them?
Marc:You sat them down?
Guest:No, they sat me down.
Guest:They sat me down because I was behaving so erratically.
Guest:Like just staying up all night.
Marc:Are you on drugs?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think, well, they also guessed what was going on because I was getting a lot of phone calls from the woman I was dating.
Guest:And like weird phone calls where I would like take the, this is like when portable phones were a thing and I would like go outside.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, and I had always had like a very open, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'd always had a very open relationship with them.
Guest:With the folks, yeah.
Guest:And really been a good kid.
Guest:My older sister was the wild one that would sneak out the window, and my dad had to remove the door from the hinges to find out she wasn't in there.
Guest:She was like the Ferris Bueller's Day Off kid, and I was the Cameron, which is funny.
Guest:I just realized that that's true.
Guest:But...
Guest:And my little sister was so little.
Guest:She's seven years younger than me.
Guest:She's 10 years younger than my older sister.
Guest:So she was just like blissfully in grade school.
Guest:And then my older sister was fucking... Like she'd just done everything in the world.
Guest:And I was like the good kid.
Guest:Bad Catholic girl.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, she was totally the... I mean, she went to...
Guest:diablo cody was in her high school class like she went to our high school so that movie juno we're like there's like a wild like that's like the kind of person right she was just like just like raucous and yeah yeah and so what would happen if somebody had a baby like all that stuff was like what was happening right for her and then i was just like this is my boyfriend he's the captain football team i'm everything right i'm a psychology i'm like it was a control freak yeah i was totally a control freak yeah and
Marc:So, all right, so they sat you down.
Guest:They sat me down and they were like, we think you're dating this woman they named her.
Guest:We think you're dating her.
Guest:Is that right?
Guest:And I said, that is right, yeah.
Guest:And I burst into tears.
Guest:And they said...
Guest:I don't remember them saying anything but that they wanted me to go to therapy.
Guest:We went to therapy as a family.
Marc:The three or the five of you?
Marc:The three of us.
Guest:And I think, because my older sister, she kind of knew what was going on.
Guest:I had sort of told her she was living in a different city and she was like,
Guest:her response was like, I kissed a girl in college, no big deal.
Guest:Like she was not necessarily 100% getting it, but she was also very, very like open and just rad about it.
Guest:So that was great, but she wasn't at home.
Guest:So they took me and I think I thought, you know, I've since realized that they were probably really confused that they just didn't have a better plan.
Guest:But at the time I thought they were trying to get like reparative therapy going.
Marc:Really, it seems to me that they were probably, I don't know, but it seems like your parents, they just wanted to make sure you knew what you were doing.
Guest:So that is actually exactly what it is.
Guest:But that is one of the most damaging things I think a gay person can hear when they're coming out, is that thing where their parents are so worried for them, because I was so worried for me.
Guest:So just to have that echoed back was pretty awful, doesn't it?
Guest:Does that make any sense?
Marc:But I can understand that.
Marc:Oh, me too.
Marc:But it's better than like, we're taking you to church.
Guest:I mean, it is better.
Guest:You know, that also happened.
Guest:You know, my dad did talk to me.
Guest:He said you got to talk to a priest?
Guest:Well, he just talked to me about, you know, he talked to me about hell.
Marc:The Bible?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, he did?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:He said, you know, that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said, you know, I'm just, I'm worried that like we won't end up in the same place.
Guest:I mean, this is, they were doing the best.
Marc:He really thought he had a clean slate, that guy.
Yep.
Guest:They were doing the best that they could.
Guest:I am very aware of the fact that, like, as much as I didn't have any knowledge, they had also no knowledge.
Guest:And then they also weren't experiencing this.
Guest:So I didn't know anything about being gay, but I was gay.
Guest:So I knew that it that this felt strong and weird and real.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So for them, I think you just remove all those emotions and it just looks.
Guest:Well, it's impossible.
Guest:It looks like a choice and it looks like I'm ruining my life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's I think it's impossible in that context for them to have empathy.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Yeah, you can't, of course.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And that's a sad moment.
Guest:It is really sad, yeah.
Guest:And I think they also have apologized for that.
Guest:I mean, they're not... They look back on it and they realize that that was a tough time for them, too.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And that they're sorry that they weren't able to...
Marc:And how did that land?
Guest:To trust me.
Guest:I mean, I do forgive them.
Marc:I do.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Like, I get why that's what happened.
Guest:I 100% get it.
Guest:I just think that it also helped me in some ways because we had such a close relationship and I was so worried about letting them down that I think like letting them down in this ultimate way.
Marc:That you had no control over.
Guest:This way that I would never be able to change.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That was kind of a gift because now I can be a stand-up comic.
Guest:You know, like it's like I've already done the worst thing in the world.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's still like you can't even frame it that way.
Marc:Do you still think that?
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:I just mean I've already caused the largest possible schism.
Guest:Like there's nothing else that I could have done.
Guest:There's no other way I could have been that I think would have disappointed them more for a short term.
Guest:So we already went through that.
Guest:So now they just kind of have to trust me a little bit.
Marc:12 years ago?
Marc:Yeah, that was 12 years ago.
Marc:So for five years, your father just couldn't process it?
Guest:He was really having a hard time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom was okay a lot earlier.
Guest:My dad had a really hard time.
Guest:He was able to kind of wrap his mind around it and comprehend it when he was first able to meet a partner of mine.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:my girlfriend my ex-girlfriend he was like oh no I totally get it she's cool like even hot yeah like he like thought she was rad and like totally got so not unlike your isolation and how you grew up I mean they were just as isolated they'd never seen it so then how does it look my daughter's life is over finally they see what it looks like and she's like a beautiful woman she's really warm and friendly she's a friend of my sister's and she's a person she's safe yeah you know there's a she's a person yeah she's a human being exactly and
Guest:So I think it was then then suddenly he was just like, oh, I'm sorry.
Guest:I thought you were dating monsters, but you're dating like people that are really nice.
Marc:And you're not a monster.
Guest:And then after that, he was able to just completely change.
Guest:He's the first person that called me.
Guest:He called me the morning that Doma was overturned.
Guest:He was driving to work with a dude that he was going to represent in court.
Guest:He heard on the radio that Doma was overturned.
Guest:He pulled over.
Guest:This is like at, I think this call was at like six o'clock in the morning our time because he was in Chicago.
Guest:He called and I was in my bed with my fiance and he called and was like,
Guest:put me on speakerphone you guys you can get married and he's standing on the side of the road he's crying just like i'm so happy for you yeah and i said like dad are you also happy for you because you get to come to my wedding and he was just like oh cameron i never thought of that i can't wait to be there you know like i mean so he's really had a massive change and it's amazing that's sweet
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:He's a sweet, sweet man.
Guest:He just didn't know.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:He didn't know.
Marc:Everybody needs a learning curve.
Marc:There's an acceptance.
Marc:And he likes your fiance.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They're like close friends, actually.
Guest:They really like each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What does she do?
Guest:Well, she's a stand-up comic, actually.
Guest:Do I know?
Guest:You might have met her.
Guest:Her name is Ria Butcher.
Guest:She's a little bit, so if we're several generations apart, she's like one or two generations below me in terms of when she started.
Marc:How long have you guys been seeing each other?
Guest:I've been seeing each other for three years.
Guest:We were friends before that, which I've never dated anybody that I was friends with first.
Guest:But she's rad.
Guest:And I liked her stuff.
Guest:I liked her material.
Marc:You got to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just thought she was so rad on stage.
Marc:It's tricky.
Guest:I don't think you could ever do it the other way.
Marc:If you don't like their stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, I don't even think I could date somebody that I don't I don't think I could like date somebody and then have them start.
Guest:You know, like I just it was like it's rough.
Marc:It was rad because I already knew her as a comic for somebody to feel in the shadow of the other or competitive or, you know, like like sort of like maybe you should not do that joke that way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's not happening.
Guest:No, she was already... I just, like, got to see her begin.
Marc:Do you have wedding plans?
Guest:We don't have anything planned yet, because I've just been, like, traveling.
Guest:Like, oh, also, we need a wife.
Guest:We realized that after we got engaged.
Guest:Like, neither of us knows how to do any of that stuff.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Like, she's butchered than me.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Her last name is Butcher.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it is 100% true.
Guest:Like, she...
Marc:So you don't, what?
Marc:You're both sort of like, who's going to clean up?
Guest:We're just like, where do you get a cake?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, I don't know where you do that.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I guess.
Guest:Like, I just never imagined what a wedding would look like.
Marc:No, you can find it.
Marc:But I can't wait.
Marc:You just hire people to do that.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I mean, I think, like, eventually I'll get to the place where I can imagine that that's what's going to happen.
Marc:Well, so, okay.
Marc:So now getting, you know, coming full circle around to, you know, your responsibility or your... But I think it's very interesting.
Marc:I don't want to just boil past it that, you know, not only the challenge...
Marc:of accepting being gay and then having your parents accept you, but the deeper wiring of shame and the idea that you've let people down, that's got to be ongoing.
Guest:I do think that that's something I still struggle with.
Guest:I mean, I think that's the whole reason that I originally started doing stand-up.
Guest:Like, I was doing improv before, and that felt like, okay.
Guest:I've always been funny.
Guest:I had, like, crossed eyes when I was a little kid.
Guest:When you have crossed eyes, you better be, like...
Guest:How'd they unfuck them?
Guest:I had multiple surgeries and I wore an eye patch for eight years of my childhood.
Guest:Yeah, this is all true, Mark.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were cross-eyed.
Marc:So they started you with like bottom glasses?
Guest:Yeah, well, I had surgery when I was two.
Guest:Then I had to wear glasses and then I had to wear an eye patch for literally eight years.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah, this is all true.
Marc:Until you were, what, 10?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I had surgery again when I was 20.
Marc:And it worked?
Marc:So what was between 10 and 20?
Marc:You just wore glasses?
Guest:It just like would occasionally cross.
Guest:It still wavers now.
Guest:Like if I'm really tired or something like that.
Marc:That's a whole other struggle.
Guest:So you were the... So I was like a little weird looking kid in a weird little body in a place where everybody was kind of like... And they made fun of you?
Guest:Nobody made fun of me because I figured out how to be funny.
Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like, yeah, just be like, oh, I'm a goofy eyepatch kid, you know?
Guest:And then, like, if you're that person, you can kind of get in front of it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think a lot of comics had, like, something they were getting in front of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's, like, why we overdeveloped this sense of humor.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because it's, like, de-escalating a situation that could be really difficult if we weren't able to do it.
Marc:Mine has always existed in my head.
Marc:So it's never, it's a never-ending resource.
Yeah.
Guest:But I mean, that's real, too.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:That's all real.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I found stand up because I think it was like I wanted to figure out how to come out to people because, you know, I don't I you think I look gay.
Guest:I think I look gay.
Guest:But like walking down the street, if you go buy a bagel and somebody's like, hey, who are you buying?
Guest:And you like buy three extra and people like, oh, who are you sharing a bagel with?
Guest:And you have to be like, oh, I'm taking it home to my girlfriend.
Guest:Right.
Guest:conversationally sexuality isn't about sex but when you mention girlfriend then people like automatically go somewhere it's like this weird it's like it feels like it's like too much conversationally but then you don't want to lie so you're just like always riding this line about how do I like navigate the world having this thing that's so central to my being that I also don't think is a big deal but that if I don't talk about it it's like
Guest:Right.
Guest:Lying by omission.
Marc:Well, that's the weird responsibility of it.
Marc:I mean, you know, how do you continue to own yourself and your point of view?
Marc:And if you're going to do stand up, like, quite honestly, you know, I watched 10 minutes of stand up and it gave me the framework of what I was going to talk to you about.
Marc:And was, you know, they weren't stories.
Marc:They were just jokes.
Marc:But even if you, you know, you want to do jokes that are grounded in you, you got to own yourself.
Marc:Right.
Guest:absolutely yeah and i think i have to i mean i come out like the second i walk out on stage i try and come out because i don't want anybody to be thinking about it right because then they're thinking and they're not listening you know like you you break down the mechanism of jokes so like i always come out because of like i know i'm wearing a vest like i don't want you to be confused about the fact that i know i look gay i look gay because i'm gay it's fine we can get through it let's talk about some other shit but if you don't mention it then people are just like i don't does she know yeah
Guest:Does she know she's gay?
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I got to tell her.
Guest:If she doesn't know, I got to tell her.
Guest:Where were you when I was 10?
Guest:Where were you when I was 18?
Guest:That would have been more helpful then.
Guest:Now I know.
Marc:But in terms of, that's really a personal choice, but you don't feel like I have to represent the gay community.
Guest:I do a little bit feel like that because especially right now, everybody has jokes about equal marriage or everybody's talking about it.
Guest:It's like in the ether.
Guest:It's such a big pop culture moment.
Guest:Finally.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:But when I'm on a show, if there is another straight comic that does equal marriage material and I don't do it, I feel...
Guest:Like somebody else has spoken for me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that bothers me.
Guest:And that's like I just I feel like, you know, because we're a minority still.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If gay people aren't speaking on our own behalf, then we're just taken out of the conversation.
Guest:I don't want somebody else to decide my life.
Guest:I would like to represent myself.
Marc:And there you go.
Guest:So it's like a kind of a social responsibility in that way.
Guest:But it's because I want to make the world better for me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, like it's very selfish.
Marc:It cuts both ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's that's sort of interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:It's very interesting to me, too, to see that the type of person that resisted gay marriage so emphatically are really it's weird because, you know, now that it's happening and the momentum is it's going to happen.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And but those people are going to be the same ones are like, I guess it's all right.
Marc:You like it's it's a very weird thing.
Marc:Am I wrong?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think that it's really strange to travel as much as I am right now.
Guest:Because I get the temperature of so many different places.
Guest:I was just in Canada.
Guest:I tried to tell some jokes about like, you should be okay with equal marriage.
Guest:And they were literally like, can you stop talking about this?
Guest:We are fine with this.
Guest:And then right before that, I had been in Lexington, Kentucky, in Nashville, and Peoria, Illinois.
Guest:And I understand.
Guest:Yeah, they're pretty hip.
Guest:But at the same time, like,
Guest:Would it surprise you if I told you that people come up to me all the time and they're like, I've never met a gay person.
Guest:I've never heard a gay person talk in those cities even.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, it wouldn't be surprising.
Guest:And then also like in Madison, Wisconsin.
Marc:They've met them.
Marc:But the fact that they didn't talk or they didn't identify themselves.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They've all met them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But that's their words.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's them saying, yeah, I've never met a gay person.
Guest:I didn't know any.
Guest:I had no idea that.
Marc:Well, that's well, that's exactly why what you do is so important is that it changes the dialogue because eventually with gay marriage, it's just going to be like, oh, that we're going over to Bob and Bill's house.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm a human.
Guest:Like, you know, like we're saying with my dad.
Guest:It's like, you know, I feel like I know what that person looks like.
Guest:But that was me.
Guest:That was my family.
Guest:So I just feel like once... I mean, that's what they say, right?
Guest:It's like if you have gay people in your family, it obviously changes your perception.
Guest:But it's also like...
Guest:If you have gay people in your circle, in your sphere, in your world, if you've ever sat there and laughed at like some decently crafted jokes and personal stories.
Guest:And I try to be like a little bit sexy about it, too, but not in like a way where it's sexy for men.
Guest:Like I try to be like, this is a, you know, like I'm a fully developed person and I'm happy about this and there's a sexy element to it.
Marc:Like I'm not neutered.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:it's mine yeah but but i think that's exactly why it's why the dialogue is important because you know what that speaks to is when people in these places say i've never heard a gay person talk or i've never met a gay person that means that you know if anything is still existing it's it's a closet and in that people feel like it'll be a liability to be you know out or or or even own it publicly and that's a shame and that's yeah that sort of has to change in order for people to go through what your parents went through
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I think that does have to change.
Guest:And I also think that the reason that that exists is because the jokes have evolved, but the shame is still there.
Marc:On both parts, I think.
Marc:There's still like a weird lack of understanding and there's still shame on the part of people that are in the closet or living a secret life.
Marc:because they feel... But I imagine that overcoming that fear, that's where I think... I don't know if it's still a schism about a gay person's responsibility to be out or not.
Marc:It's still a personal choice, but there are definitely people that think you have to be out.
Guest:I feel like... Personally, I feel like it is...
Marc:important because you have to think about the larger picture of the world you have to think about the generations after but some people are sort of like you know in the same way that they don't want to go to the soup line or or or go you know hand out the uh you know the vaccines yeah they're like well it's not my it's not on
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I don't know if you remember when, like, Jodie Foster got a Lifetime Achievement Award at, I think, the Golden Globes, was it?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And she got up on stage and she said, like, she didn't want to talk about her personal life, so she got really close to saying the word gay, but she didn't say it.
Guest:But at the same time, she talked about her mother, she pointed to her kids, she talked about her relationship with Robert Downey Jr., who introduced her...
Guest:And Mel Gibson, too, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She talked about her life.
Guest:And so I guess it's like it's not more personal than that.
Guest:Like, I don't want to know, you know, anything else about I don't it's not my right to know anything else about what's going on with you.
Guest:I don't need to know anything about your recent relationship and marriage with Alexandra Hedison because I am up on my shit.
Guest:But, you know, right.
Guest:You could just say that you're gay because that's the same thing as saying you have a mom.
Guest:You have a mom and you're also a gay person.
Marc:But yeah, but there's I guess in that way, the the the non loaded or non sort of like compliant way to say it is like, you know, my partner, whoever it is, my if I were gay, be like my partner, John, and I were just at the thing.
Marc:Like, I don't know if you have to say like, I still think the word gay is really important.
Guest:I use the word lesbian on stage because I think it's really important to use the word lesbian.
Marc:I know that I'll start using it.
Guest:Yeah, I just I think I think people still think like, oh, like if somebody calls you, if somebody says to me, I will sometimes be like, hey, guys, it's great to see you to obviously gay women in the audience.
Guest:And people will laugh like I was slamming them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I have to be like, you guys.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is fine.
Guest:It's fine that I know those are the gay women.
Guest:Like, that's fine.
Marc:That's okay.
Marc:It's not a joke.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not.
Guest:I'm, like, totally chill with it.
Marc:Well, they're just doing that because they're uncomfortable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They don't feel like you're sick.
Guest:Well, like, why are they?
Guest:I mean, I think the whole thing just has.
Marc:That's going to take a while.
Marc:I agree that it's going to take a while.
Marc:I think the whole thing.
Marc:But I don't think that's malicious.
Marc:I think that, you know, anything requires an adjustment period.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I don't think, I don't think, I think a lot of it is not malicious, but I think what I'm talking about is just the little ways that we set people up to have more difficult lives.
Guest:Like for instance, men, you know, being really confused about what gay male sexuality is.
Guest:Like how, like heterosexual men feeling like gay or bi men are like acting.
Guest:After them, you know, like that there's going to be a recruitment process, you know, that whole thing of a dude being like, I wouldn't suck a dick for a million dollars.
Guest:Like that to me is the best example in the world about how confused men are about gay male sexuality.
Guest:Nobody's going to pay you a million dollars to suck their dick.
Guest:I don't know how special you think your mouth is, but like that's not happening.
Guest:There's people that will do that for free.
Marc:That's strutting.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:And so I just think, like, as soon as we can get beyond that... Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:I never really framed it in the way that that's some sort of, you know, misunderstanding.
Marc:I think that's more of a sort of weird, aggressive, you know, I'm straight statement.
Guest:Right, but it's because, like, it would be such a sacrifice.
Guest:Like, I wouldn't... It's, like, such a sacrifice.
Guest:And I think it's just not understanding that, like, gay men want to suck dicks.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Some.
Guest:I mean, some gay men want to suck dicks.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, that's not... They're not sad about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they're gay.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:You don't have to put your, you don't have to imagine like, but what if I had to suck a dick?
Guest:You like, then that would be tough because you're straight.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It would be a pleasure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You wouldn't like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It would probably cost a million dollars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's, that's totally fine.
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:Nobody wants you to do this.
Guest:I don't know why you think people want you to do this.
Guest:Nobody wants you to do anything you don't like.
Marc:Why are you even having that conversation with yourself?
Marc:Maybe you should suck a dick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just to see what your price range is.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You might lower your price.
Marc:Yeah, you might even do it for free.
Marc:You might do it for free.
Marc:Maybe that's your biggest fear.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You just want to suck dick for nothing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I tell you, I watched your appearance on Ferguson, because I saw that it got a little press, and I do a vague amount of research, but...
Marc:You know, Leno was there as the guest and Craig was there and they brought you on.
Marc:And then, you know, you got into a situation that's very rare on television.
Marc:And because I'm a comic and because I saw it unfold and you can watch it, I found it very touching.
Marc:Like I was moved by it.
Marc:I was too.
Marc:I bet.
Marc:I mean, it's really something that, you know, you chose.
Marc:I don't think you saw it coming.
Marc:No, I did not.
Marc:It was completely inappropriate for the situation.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You're doing stand-up.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You talk about denim.
Marc:Leno's sitting there on the panel.
Marc:They're minding their own business watching you.
Guest:And he stayed to watch me also, which he didn't have to.
Marc:Right.
Guest:He could have left.
Marc:I thought it was really sort of, outside of one weird thing he said, I thought it was a pretty decent appearance for him.
Marc:He seemed comfortable in person.
Marc:yeah but uh but so you make a comment about denim and then you make a comment about him wearing denim and then i think ferguson was the one that first shot back yes and he's he's got no fucking boundaries that guy you know and i like him i've done his show i got no problem with him but all of a sudden you're being heckled in a nice way on your first stand-up appearance on television yeah at the end of your set where you couldn't do your closer no i couldn't do my closer so he heckles you yeah and then jay chimes in and then i think it was an interesting call for him to bring you over i think it was the
Marc:call me too like he could have said all right go ahead and finish but he knew i couldn't how could i have possibly topped what was the the moment but i mean we're in this moment where it's like to do stand up when you have a moment right just stay with the moment well yeah i thought you did real good with that i think that you oh thank you that you you reacted to them and you gave it back to them and you got a laugh and it was all handled it could have really went south
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you freaked out.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I mean, I, I, I will tell you in the moment, I, first of all, I was just, you know, you play to the other comics, right?
Guest:That's who you want to love what you're doing.
Guest:And so like working in the line about Jay, because he happened to be on the show, I was like, Oh, I'm so excited.
Guest:I get to do this, you know?
Guest:And then when Craig was interacting with me, it feels like heckling, but it also feels like kind of like a hazing thing in a respectful way, you know, like what?
Guest:I love the hierarchy of stand-up.
Guest:It's one of my favorite things about it, like, that you and I are not peers, and I have to look up to you.
Guest:And that's because, like... No, but I do.
Guest:I believe that.
Guest:Like, you put in the time, you pound at the pavement.
Guest:Yeah, respect is so important.
Guest:It's, like, such a beautiful part of our career is, you know, the way that it's... It's not necessarily our nature, right?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:But I love how we have this job that is like just completely irreverent and still we have so much reverence for each other.
Guest:And like that's such a cool thing about it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So when they were testing me.
Guest:Yeah, when it comes right down to it, we do have reverence.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like maybe like, you know, talking to each other.
Guest:Fuck that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But still, we could even hate each other's stuff.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Like I, you know, we can you can find another comic that you just like, I hate their stuff, but you can still respect their.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And Leno certainly taken like, you know, he's like the Jesus of stand ups.
Marc:You know, like this guy was like the best stand up in the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can't find one stand up.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And the fact that, well, it was just sort of interesting that like you showed up for it, you stayed in the present, you know, and they brought you over and then, you know, you scored on the couch to next to them.
Marc:And then they both get, you know, politely giving you your props, which you deserved at that moment.
Marc:And it was it was something I'd never seen before, really.
Guest:I don't think anything like that has ever.
Guest:Well, I'll also say like in terms of comedy, that's such a weird.
Guest:It's so weird that a late night appearance would happen like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With the two hosts also.
Guest:I don't actually know that that I can't imagine that happening again.
Guest:I don't know how that would happen.
Guest:Like there's two hosts and then there's a first time performance and there's banter back and forth.
Marc:And Jay actually says you're the future.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:White men are out.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:White men.
Guest:His last line is he goes, lesbians rule.
Guest:And then it's just like worldwide pants, you know, like the show is over.
Guest:And this is on CBS, you know, like mainstream, the most mainstream network.
Guest:Like the fact that this is all happening is wild.
Guest:But I also kind of thought I fucked up.
Marc:How so?
Guest:Because I thought that I deviated from like the script that I gave them and that they were going to be angry with me.
Guest:I know this sounds so silly.
Guest:They fucked you up.
Guest:They are the ones you threw you up.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But like when I walked off stage, like I had so much fun in the moment.
Guest:I was like, this is great.
Guest:The moment I walked off stage, I like went up to the guy who books it and I was just like, I'm so sorry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'm so sorry about that.
Guest:And he was like, he was like, are you kidding?
Guest:That couldn't have been a better thing.
Guest:I think that was also a learning experience in realizing like that television can also be real, you know, because I think when you're first great and when you're first doing stuff, it feels so unreal.
Marc:Well, like a lot of the guys now like Craig, he's the loosest of them, but he'll get you off your marks like he was really the only guy that would have done that to you.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:You know, that was a unique situation.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But yeah, they're loosening it a little bit.
Marc:It used to be really scripted.
Marc:But now with the talk show, when you do panel, it's a little bit sort of like, yeah, just roll with it.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:That there can be some moments like that.
Marc:Yeah, they love it.
Marc:They love it.
Marc:It's like when that happens, it's almost like, you know, hey, everyone's awake for a second.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:They're just hoping that happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm glad it happened for you.
Marc:And if people want to watch it, you can go find it.
Marc:Cameron Esposito Ferguson, I imagine you can find it, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's right up there on the old internet.
Marc:Well, I'm proud of you.
Marc:You didn't disappoint me.
Guest:Oh, Mark Meredith, thank you so much.
Marc:And it's great talking to you.
Guest:You have beautiful things in your bathroom.
Guest:You have gorgeous male hair products in your bathroom.
Guest:And everyone should know.
Guest:No, he's got the right stuff.
Guest:Oh, come on.
Guest:You got the right stuff, baby.
Guest:They're all going to know everything.
Marc:I like talking to her.
Marc:She's solid, man.
Marc:Solid.
Marc:Solid act.
Marc:Solid person.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash calendar.
Marc:Check all those tour dates.
Marc:I'm coming.
Marc:I'm coming to you.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop at WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get the WTF blend.
Marc:A little kickback on that.
Marc:A little on the back end of that for Uncle Marky.
Marc:A few shekels coming my way.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Leave some comments.
Marc:Get the app.
Marc:Get the free app.
Marc:Upgrade.
Marc:Upgrade to the premium app.
Marc:Listen to everything.
Marc:Got a live show.
Marc:I haven't done one of those in a while.
Marc:Live show on Thursday.
Marc:Live from Podfest.
Marc:I know that some of you find the guitar playing jarring, but I'm still enjoying my new homemade pedal from Mae McDonough and Company.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Boomer lives!