Episode 570 - Andrea Martin
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck, Stonians?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:Welcome to my show.
Marc:I'm sorry I'm a little beat up.
Marc:I'm a little strung out.
Marc:I've had a long day.
Marc:I'm recording this a bit earlier than I usually do in terms of the day I do it.
Marc:It's in the evening.
Marc:It's late at night as I record this.
Marc:I've just shot...
Marc:full day of Marin.
Marc:We just got done with our second day.
Marc:I'm a little out of my mind.
Marc:I'd forgotten what it's like to shoot 12 hours, 13 hour days of television.
Marc:I'm very excited to be doing it.
Marc:I do get cranky towards the end of the day, but today was sort of a bit of an emotionally taxing day in a good way.
Marc:I'll tell you about it in a second.
Marc:My guest on today's show is Andrea Martin.
Marc:You might know her from Broadway theater.
Marc:You might know her from SCTV.
Marc:You might know her from some of her film roles.
Marc:She's got a memoir out called Lady Parts.
Marc:It's available now wherever you get your books.
Marc:She's an amazing woman and an amazing talent.
Marc:And I love her.
Marc:And I loved watching her as a kid on SCTV and whenever I see her.
Marc:And I saw her right here in my garage sitting right across from me.
Marc:It was tremendous.
Marc:And I'll be sharing that with you minutes from now.
Marc:But let's talk about me for one second.
Marc:As I talked about the other day, what was that Monday?
Marc:About gratitude and about thinking about your life and realizing on some level that this is it.
Marc:This is all you got.
Marc:You better make the best of it because I don't know.
Marc:I can't confirm that there's anything other than this.
Marc:And even if there is something other than this, it might not feel like you think it will feel.
Marc:That's the weird thing about metaphysics and the idea of an afterlife or an ever after or a happy place or a heaven or a hell or whatever.
Marc:Those are all things that can be conceived within the human imagination, whatever it is, floating on stars or clouds or playing harps or being able to have angels wings or just to...
Marc:weird sort of fun cottony place or a burning fire where everything melts and your penis is always on fire and and your you have uh your your head has got a rod through it and it's being used as some sort of uh mallet on a xylophone of other people's hate and pain
Marc:Sorry, this is just an improv hell.
Marc:Those are all things that the human imagination can wrap up.
Marc:But maybe there's a frequency.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But let's say that you die and it's just sort of whatever it is, even if it's the most amazing thing in the world, you don't have consciousness.
Marc:So it has no bearing on what your ego can manufacture in the present time frame to make yourself feel special.
Marc:If you can dig what I'm saying, kiddies.
Marc:But it was a long day and I got a little cranky.
Marc:I was also emotionally taxing, as I said before, in a good way.
Marc:And I'll tell you about that.
Marc:Because of some people I worked with.
Marc:It was guys I worked with.
Marc:I worked with my old friend Rick Shapiro, who I've known seemingly, it seems, about half my life.
Marc:He's a rare talent.
Marc:He's a one and only.
Marc:He's an authentic, an American original, a true freedom-loving lunatic.
Marc:And by freedom, I mean aesthetic freedom, complete freedom of mind, balls to the walls, nutty freedom.
Marc:That is Rick Shapiro.
Marc:Rick Shapiro was a force of nature, still is.
Marc:Love the guy.
Marc:He was on my show last year.
Marc:He played my kooky neighbor, my disturbing neighbor with a gun and a story to tell, Bernie.
Marc:He is doing that role again.
Marc:He's back.
Marc:And Rick has been battling a very courageous battle with Parkinson's disease.
Marc:And I got to tell you,
Marc:He was better this year than he was last year.
Marc:That's how great he's doing.
Marc:But he's very emotional.
Marc:He's very emotional to work with Rick because we have such a long history, but it's also emotional to work with Rick in this slightly different state.
Marc:And he's very emotional because of the state that he's in.
Marc:And it was just it was a profound, amazing scene.
Marc:We're just doing this thing we were doing, and I felt like crying.
Marc:So there's something that happens sometimes when you can, you know, hire somebody that you love or hire somebody that you know in a long time.
Marc:I got people on the show that I've known for years and it's just beautiful.
Marc:So I work with Rick and that was emotionally taxing in a very good way.
Marc:And then later in the afternoon, Andy Dick comes because I'm doing a scene with him.
Marc:Yeah, he's on the show too.
Marc:And if I could think of two more boundaryless, beautiful people to do scenes with that might just completely drain me of my emotions in a good way, it would be Andy Dick and Rick Shapiro.
Marc:And we had a great time.
Marc:Andy's a riot.
Marc:Had a great time with him.
Marc:He's doing very well.
Marc:He's on the up and up.
Marc:He's clean and sober.
Marc:He's fucking hilarious.
Marc:We had a great time today.
Marc:You know, I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a good time shooting my show and it's going very well so far.
Marc:That's what I'm telling you.
Marc:That's what I have to report.
Marc:All right?
Marc:And be grateful.
Marc:And don't worry about heaven and hell.
Marc:Let's just assume it's a completely different consciousness or part of a different consciousness that's a bigger consciousness and we won't even register it.
Marc:We're already doing it.
Marc:We're already part of it.
Marc:It's already happening.
Marc:It's over and it's beginning.
Marc:Holy God.
Marc:Must be bullshit day.
Marc:It's truly an honor, my friends, truly an honor.
Marc:And it was a tremendous joy to talk to the one and only Andrea Martin.
Marc:So you don't live here at all?
Marc:You did live here.
Guest:I lived here for 18 years, yeah.
Marc:And then you ran away?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:You had enough?
Guest:I'd had enough from the moment I got here, but I lasted for 18 years.
Marc:Because I just had, who was just here?
Marc:Jason Schwartzman was here.
Marc:And he's like, I went to school with her kids.
Guest:That's so cool.
Guest:Jason, he played my son.
Guest:Did he tell you that?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:On a TV show, right?
Marc:Yes, on a show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Cracking up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, he did mention that.
Guest:He's so talented.
Guest:How's he doing?
Marc:He seems well.
Marc:He's an interesting guy.
Guest:He is interesting.
Marc:He's a very sweet man.
Guest:And yet kind of quirky, quirky.
Marc:Very quirky.
Marc:Seems genuinely curious about things.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not much ego that I could detect.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah, like, you know, he seemed pretty much what he is.
Marc:I haven't interviewed a lot of the SCTV people, though.
Marc:I mean, just you and Catherine.
Marc:And Ivan Reitman wasn't really part of it, but he was around, right?
Guest:Oh, but Ivan Reitman gave me my first role in a movie called Foxy Lady, in which I appeared semi-nude recently.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Has anyone clipped it on YouTube?
Guest:You cannot find it.
Guest:And I called Ivan to see if we could get it.
Guest:And he said, it's down in the bowels of my basement.
Guest:Nobody's seen it.
Guest:It was his first film.
Guest:And then Eugene Levy and I did a movie called Cannibal Girls that Ivan directed.
Guest:And we kind of improvised the entire film.
Guest:And we won the Best Actor and Actress Award at the International Horror Film Festival, which I always thought was a joke until one desperate, lonely...
Marc:bad day i maybe maybe there is that award and i googled it and it still exists and you have one i do so you do so i even like the canadian thing though it's but you're not from there no i'm from maine maine what part of maine portland you grew up in portland maine i did and that was a while back i'm not okay all right relax no just relax
Guest:I'm worried now because I'm wearing my glasses.
Marc:If I have makeup without glasses.
Marc:You look beautiful.
Marc:You look great.
Marc:But I can't imagine what Portland was like.
Marc:Because I started doing comedy in that area.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Where were you from?
Marc:In Boston is where I started doing comedy.
Marc:You didn't go to Emerson, did you?
Marc:No, but I have a lot of friends who went to Emerson.
Guest:That's where I went.
Marc:A lot of friends who went to Emerson.
Marc:I didn't even know it was... Now I'm going to do it again.
Marc:Was it the same time?
Guest:You didn't know it existed?
Guest:No.
Guest:Mark, if I hadn't traveled seven hours to get here, I literally would be walking out the door.
Guest:Yes, Emerson's been around for a long time in speech and communication, but now it's like a crazy great networking school.
Marc:But that's what I mean.
Marc:Was it a, you know, like it seems like a lot of comedy, like there's specific programs for comedy and for sketch.
Guest:Now I think when I went there, you literally got a degree in speech.
Guest:And what was I going to do with that?
Guest:I got a degree in speech and drama.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, let's talk about Maine for a minute.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because Maine is beautiful.
Marc:But what was the family like?
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:I do have a brother and a sister.
Guest:I'm the oldest.
Guest:I grew up in an Armenian household.
Marc:Really Armenian?
Guest:100%.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:You're near Glendale, aren't you?
Guest:The hub of Armenian population.
Marc:Yeah, and that's either a good thing or a difficult thing.
Marc:It depends how you're coming at it.
Marc:It's very insulated, and you definitely feel when you go to Glendale, it's sort of like, well, I'm an outsider here.
Marc:Do you really?
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:Oh, I'm going to go if I need my self-esteem boosted.
Guest:Do you speak Armenian?
Guest:No.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Now I'll really be ostracized.
Guest:Is that a word?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:But like Armenian, like what generation?
Marc:Your parents?
Guest:My grandparents were born in Turkey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like many Armenians.
Guest:And they were, during the genocide in 1915, they left.
Guest:Got out.
Guest:My grandfather did, yeah.
Guest:And migrated to...
Guest:Maine, where there was the Red Cross that established a small, safe enclave for Armenians.
Guest:My grandfather came, then he brought my grandmother, who was 15 at the time.
Guest:They had seven children, very, very poor, extreme poverty.
Guest:My father was Armenian.
Guest:His parents died when he was 13, had no education, became a...
Guest:Highly successful businessman with grocery stores and restaurants.
Guest:My mom had no education.
Guest:And I think growing up and wanting to be an actress was about as far away as any reality.
Guest:That generation of Armenians, they were born in Maine.
Marc:And they just had to work for everything.
Marc:So what business did your father end up in?
Guest:grocery stores and restaurants so you grew up in restaurants and grocery stores i did did you work in restaurants i worked in the grocery store i wrapped produce for many many summers couldn't have been more miserable i'm sure wrapping produce and singing broadway tunes i gotta wash that man right out of my hair dancing you know those are the days of american boy i am now i'm like sophie tucker those were the days um i watched american bandstand all the time right you're too young to know
Marc:But I've seen tape.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you were like this singing kid wrapping chickens.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And all the people in the neighborhood thought you were- Produce.
Guest:They didn't let me near the poultry.
Marc:No.
Guest:Salmonella.
Guest:But they let me near the produce.
Guest:I could wrap a mean head of lettuce.
Marc:But was it like an intimate kind of like, did you know everybody in the neighborhood?
Marc:I mean, was it that small or was it already like, because Portland's a larger city in Maine, but it wasn't, it's not huge.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's not huge.
Guest:And I did know the community, but I didn't really feel like I fit in.
Guest:You know, I'm Armenian.
Guest:But I had lots of friends, and I was the homecoming queen.
Marc:In spite of all of it, I was.
Marc:Did you do theater in high school?
Guest:I did, yes.
Guest:My first professional show was...
Guest:When I was 13 in South Pacific, I played Liat.
Guest:There was a New York touring company and they had to cast small parts when they toured.
Guest:And so they gave me the part of Liat because being an Armenian was the closest they were going to get to a Polynesian princess.
Guest:And that got me started.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they were doing the singing and everything.
Marc:Yeah, singing, singing.
Guest:Dancing.
Guest:She had to pantomime happy talk.
Guest:Happy talk, keep talking, happy talk.
Guest:I still remember the choreography.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Marc:You could do the dance right now.
Marc:I could.
Marc:It wouldn't be effective on radio, but I appreciate that you can't.
Guest:Not unless I grunt while I'm doing it.
Guest:Damn it.
Guest:Oh, I used to be able to lift my leg.
Fuck.
Marc:So how do you get from Maine to, okay, so you went to Emerson, so you went to Boston, and you'd convince your parents that entertainment was a viable thing somehow.
Guest:I don't think I ever convinced my parents, but because I made a living fairly early on.
Marc:Doing, performing.
Guest:Being in the theater, yeah, that I was self-supporting.
Marc:After college or before college?
Guest:I did summer stock in the summers.
Guest:And then when I went to college, I graduated from college in 1969.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Now I actually am Sophie Tucker.
Guest:What is that song she sings?
Guest:One of these days, you're going to miss me, honey.
Guest:I graduated in 1969.
Guest:I went directly to New York City.
Guest:I got one of those industry newspapers called Show Business.
Guest:There's two of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:backstage of showbiz, and they have open calls.
Guest:And for your listeners, that means if you're not part of the union equity, anybody can go to an open call.
Marc:But 69 must have been crazy.
Marc:It must have been like, you know, they're just hippies.
Marc:The culture's exploding.
Marc:Everything's exciting.
Marc:Not if you're a musical comedy.
Marc:That remained the same for decades.
Marc:Nothing has changed.
Guest:No, but I had tunnel vision, right?
Guest:So I wasn't really... Paying attention to the culture at large.
Marc:Not so much.
Marc:Get me a stage.
Guest:Until I saw Janis Joplin in Baltimore, Maryland.
Guest:Most amazing... You did?
Guest:I did, and then she died two days later.
Guest:That's when I was doing You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown.
Guest:And I was doing it in Baltimore.
Guest:So I went to audition...
Guest:I graduated in 69.
Guest:I went to New York, and two weeks later, I was cast as Lucy and Your Good Man Charlie Brown.
Guest:And then I became part of that touring company.
Guest:We toured all over in 1970.
Guest:I saw Janis Joplin in Baltimore in 1970.
Guest:And then very soon afterwards, she died.
Marc:So you saw her.
Marc:That must have been astounding.
Guest:I've seen three live concerts in my life.
Marc:In your life?
Guest:That meant something to me.
Guest:And I'm going to tell you what they are.
Marc:I'm ready.
Guest:Janis Joplin, Bob Dylan, and Bette Midler.
Guest:Really informed.
Guest:When did you see Bob Dylan?
Guest:You know, in that period, in the 1770s?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And Bette Midler, that, I mean.
Guest:Bette Midler, she was at Massey Hall in Toronto.
Guest:I am friends with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Bob Dylan stayed in my home in Toronto when he was making a movie.
Guest:He did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I came back to the home, there were marijuana burns in every part of my quilt that I never threw away because Bob Dylan burned them.
Marc:So he was just smoking weed in bed.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And the only albums that were out of my section of albums were his.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, come on.
Marc:I swear to God.
Marc:Sitting around listening to his own record smoking weed.
Marc:Well, somebody was.
Marc:I think a lot of people have done that in their lives, haven't they?
Marc:So how did Bob Dylan find his way to your house?
Guest:I think that I must have, you know, I was traveling back and forth.
Guest:And so Kathy Bates stayed there.
Guest:I think I had a rent.
Guest:It was a long time ago.
Guest:But I think I had some rental thing, renting it for a lot of money to very high profile people.
Guest:It was a beautiful house.
Marc:Oh, so you just like when you weren't there, they'd rent it out.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And Bette Midler, where did you see her?
Marc:What year was that?
Guest:Oh, Bette, I knew.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:I met through Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman.
Guest:Oh, and I did Gypsy with her.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I did Gypsy.
Guest:I did the made-for-TV movie Gypsy.
Marc:But when you saw her the first time, was it back in the 70s?
Marc:Yes, yes, yeah.
Marc:Extraordinary.
Marc:She must have been just a force in nature.
Guest:Amazing live performance.
Marc:No one ever been like her.
Marc:She reinvented something.
Guest:She did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And no one has been like her because the audacity, the connection with the audience and the tenderness with which she sang juxtaposed with a crazy, no holes barred, vulgar.
Guest:I mean, there was never that kind of combination.
Guest:She was just beautiful.
Marc:A great showman.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Menacing Semitic sexuality.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:I'll take it.
Guest:Why doesn't somebody introduce me like that?
Guest:As opposed to Perky.
Guest:The Perky Andrea Martin.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:Okay, so you go from Maine, and then you go to Emerson, and you study speech.
Marc:Was it very dry?
Marc:I mean, what was the degree like there?
Guest:First, I went to Stevens College in Missouri, because I wanted to be very far away from home.
Marc:That makes sense.
Guest:I got kicked out of Stevens College, then I went to Emerson.
Guest:I wasn't very good being in Boston, so I went to the... Why?
Guest:um i don't know actually i guess i had my sights on something less new englandy so i went to too much like maine yeah there you go so then i went to paris and i started the sorbonne my third year then i went for a year i did yeah
Marc:What did you study there?
Marc:French.
Marc:Just French?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:No mime or anything?
Guest:Mime came up later.
Guest:It did.
Guest:Somebody's read a book.
Guest:No, I didn't read a book.
Guest:How do you know mime?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Mime's from France.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I studied with Jacques Lecoq.
Guest:You did.
Guest:That's not his real name.
Guest:His real name is Reggie Lecoq.
Guest:Okay, why?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I went back.
Guest:To Paris?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:To study mime?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I've always loved the circus.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Really?
Guest:So how old were you when you did that?
Guest:Let me see.
Marc:Was that after college?
Marc:You took time away to study mime?
Guest:That was after I graduated.
Guest:I moved to Toronto, and then I took a year off to study mime, yes.
Marc:So you were always like, it was always stage with you.
Marc:I mean, you were not looking to be film actress.
Marc:You wanted to be on stage.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know if you grew up in Portland, Maine, and you think in that generation.
Guest:Now people grow up really with goals in sight.
Guest:But when I was growing up in Portland,
Guest:I didn't have goals like that.
Guest:One thing just led to another.
Marc:But movie stars seem like an easy fantasy to have.
Marc:Oh, you mean in terms of... I guess it wasn't my fantasy.
Guest:I guess I didn't have a fantasy, to be honest with you.
Guest:I just auditioned and then I got a part and then that led to something else.
Guest:I know it sounds strange to talk like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But honestly, I do think that this generation really has attainable goals at their hands because they know how to actualize them.
Guest:With all the social media, they can get an instant kind of thing.
Guest:But that wasn't what my case was.
Marc:But you wanted to perform.
Guest:I did want to perform.
Guest:I liked performing, and one thing led to another.
Guest:But it wasn't like I woke up in the morning and thought, now let's see, in five years, I hope I'm starring on Broadway.
Guest:That's not what happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I think, actually, Mark, that my career might have been...
Guest:I don't know, although I think I've had a good career, but maybe I would have done more if I actually had put goals in sight, but that's not how it's been.
Marc:Yeah, but do you have regrets like that?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, I can't think that way.
Guest:I really have enormous gratitude for still working.
Marc:Yeah, you're working a lot.
Marc:I mean, you work constantly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, so you did Summer Stock before college, and you're in college, and you're already working, and you're doing touring shows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're a working actress, and you're performing in these, what, dinner theaters and whatnot?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I came back to Toronto.
Marc:Yeah, but wait, how did we get to Toronto?
Marc:When did that happen?
Guest:Oh, because you're a good man.
Guest:Charlie Brown, the boy played Linus, was from Toronto.
Guest:And I played Lucy.
Guest:So Lucy's sleeping with Linus.
Guest:Charles Schultz would have been mortified.
Guest:But what happens on the back of a tour bus stays on the back of a tour bus.
Guest:So I would go.
Guest:I'd get my unemployment check in New York.
Guest:I went back to New York after the tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Didn't like New York.
Guest:Very scared there.
Guest:Felt like I was just a real small fish in a very big pond.
Marc:This is like 1970?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, 1970.
Marc:It's a little dicey in New York then.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A little bit.
Marc:It's scary.
Guest:And so I'd cash my unemployment check for $78.
Guest:And that's how much it used to cost to go from New York to Toronto.
Guest:I remember that price.
Marc:$70?
Guest:$78, exactly.
Guest:To fly?
Guest:Yes, exactly the cost of my unemployment check.
Guest:And I go and visit him.
Guest:I love Toronto.
Guest:It's a great city.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And so I stayed there for 18 years.
Guest:My book is dedicated to Canada, to Canada where it all began.
Guest:My career, my marriage, my children, Justin Bieber.
Guest:It all began.
Marc:But you didn't marry that guy.
Guest:I didn't marry Justin Bieber.
Marc:No, he's very young.
Marc:But you do talk about dating a younger man for a while.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:So you're in Toronto, but you didn't marry Linus.
Guest:I didn't marry Linus, no.
Marc:But you hung out with Linus, and you consider your show business career starting in Canada, really?
Guest:I do consider that, yeah.
Marc:And what was the first thing?
Guest:The very first thing I did was Godspell with... This is a big show.
Guest:Legendary Company of Godspell.
Marc:Yeah, this changed a lot of people's lives.
Guest:It really did.
Guest:So here's the cast.
Guest:Marty Short, Eugene Levy, Gilda Radner, Paul Schaefer was our music director, Victor Garber was our Jesus.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.
Marc:How all of these primary people have gone on to such amazing careers.
Guest:And all still good friends.
Guest:Then we went on to do SCTV together.
Marc:Garber wasn't in that, though.
Guest:No, but he's really, really, because one of my closest friends.
Guest:We talk every day.
Marc:He's an interesting guy.
Marc:I don't know anything about him, but I think he's a great actor.
Guest:Great human being, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Wonderful.
Guest:We're all very close.
Guest:We just did a spread in Vanity Fair.
Guest:Eugene, Victor, myself, and Marty, an excerpt from his book.
Guest:And so it was like all of us, how we were still friends.
Guest:It's a beautiful picture.
Marc:So I can't imagine you all as kids because you're kind of kids at that time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just like I can't like you and Marty with just that energy combined in your 20s.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It must have been fucking crazy.
Marc:Well, we certainly had energy and we still have energy.
Guest:Yes, you do.
Guest:Yeah, we do.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So now we still talk.
Guest:We talk about that all the time.
Marc:And Gilda was Canadian or no.
Guest:Gilda was from Detroit.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She moved up there.
Marc:to do Second City or to like that?
Guest:Now that is a good question.
Guest:Marty would be able to tell you because Marty dated her.
Guest:Why did she come up to Toronto?
Marc:And that's what Catherine O'Hara saw that show and it changed her life, right?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So how does that, what are the opportunities that come out of that Godspell show?
Guest:Gosh, well, for me, there were many.
Guest:I really never stopped.
Marc:Like right at the beginning?
Guest:Right at the beginning.
Guest:So I think I did Foxy Lady with Ivan Reitman.
Guest:I did a variety show with Lorne Michaels and Hart Pomerantz.
Marc:All right, what was that called?
Guest:The Hart and Lorne Terrific Hour.
Marc:I'm a little obsessed with Lorne.
Marc:So tell me.
Marc:wait no no i mean like i can't imagine him as a young man now you know so he a lot of people don't know that he was doing comedy and variety before he became this mythic uh you know mogul or whatever the hell this inspiration this buddha this is larger than life person so impresario yes he's like diaghilev yeah yeah so what was that show
Guest:So that was a sketch show.
Marc:The Hart and Lorne Terrible.
Marc:Terrific Hour.
Marc:Terrific Hour.
Marc:That's funny.
Guest:It was like many variety shows in that time.
Guest:Robert Klein had a variety show.
Guest:David Steinberg had a variety show.
Guest:So what was it?
Guest:And then Laugh-In.
Guest:So they were kind of like.
Marc:So it was sort of that format.
Marc:That format.
Marc:But it was Canadian.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So they were co-hosting it.
Marc:They were a comedy team.
Marc:Hart and Lorne.
Guest:Yep, they were a comedy team.
Marc:And they throw the sketches.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:And when you met Lorne Michaels at that time, what was your impression of him?
Guest:Somebody serious with a great business sense who wasn't necessarily funny, but understood it.
Marc:So he was the straight man, I'm taking it?
Yes.
Marc:That was a very diplomatic answer.
Guest:Well, I still have hopes of being on Saturday Night Live before I'm dead.
Guest:I don't want to... Do you maintain a relationship with that guy?
Guest:You know, I haven't seen him for many years, but he's so connected to so many of my friends.
Guest:I feel like he is in my life, but I actually haven't seen him.
Marc:But was it a point of contention that you were never on SNL?
Marc:Were you brought in?
Marc:Were you considered?
Marc:Was there early on?
Guest:There might have been a consideration.
Guest:I don't really understand it.
Guest:You know, I was thinking the other day, what would be, what are two, because everybody asks you, you know, what haven't you done that you would still like to do?
Guest:And I'm always like, don't ask me that.
Guest:I should have been, why didn't I know?
Guest:But you know, I was thinking the other day,
Guest:What are two things that I would like to do before I die?
Guest:And one is to be involved in Saturday Night Live just in some way, a sketch, a host, whatever, and to go back and do another David Letterman show because I did so many of them in the past.
Guest:I'd love to get an opportunity one more time before he goes off the air.
Guest:that yeah why tell him don't let's talk well let's make a call i mean those are those are small little things but it feels like they need to have closure i guess yeah why but i think that's he should be able to do that for you we'll see what happens wait i mean now that i'm on your show i have some cachet everything's gonna turn around after this
Guest:Look, I had an opening last night of Pippin.
Guest:I'm talking to you.
Guest:I have a book out.
Guest:I'm about to start a movie.
Guest:Look, it's a lovely time in my life.
Guest:But I had to switch gears at a certain point, Mark.
Guest:Really, when I reached 65, I'm 67 now.
Guest:Because I was saying no to a lot of things.
Guest:And it wasn't bringing me any joy.
Guest:And who the hell cared if I was... You think people out there are like...
Guest:Oh, Andrea Martin said no to that career offer.
Guest:Nobody gives a shit what I'm doing.
Guest:That's another thing that really keeps you sane.
Guest:Every time you think somebody's thinking about you, trust me, they got other things to think about.
Guest:Oh, my God, 100%.
Guest:So that was a relief, reassuring, you know.
Guest:So at 65, I just jumped on the S train.
Guest:I said, life is too short.
Guest:And what am I going to do?
Guest:Reinvent myself at 67?
Guest:Am I going to pick the right career?
Guest:Am I going to pick the right project that now proves to everybody?
Guest:No.
Guest:First of all, nobody's looking for proof.
Guest:Second of all, let me just keep working and making myself happy, making a few people happy.
Marc:But you don't feel like you've made your mark on some level?
Guest:On some level, I do for sure, but I'm also a realist.
Guest:I know what it takes to sell a book.
Guest:I know that I'm not on a hit TV show.
Guest:Do I know that Amy Poehler and Marty and Neil Patrick Harris and Alan Cumming and Lena Dunham, who have fabulous shows on the air and are highly visible, are going to sell more books?
Guest:You bet.
Guest:I did my one-person show.
Marc:I'm glad it doesn't bother you.
Guest:What am I going to do?
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:You know, it frustrates me or I wouldn't be talking about you on the air.
Guest:I wouldn't be taking your precious time talking about my pretend like it doesn't bother me diatribe.
Marc:Okay, so let's go back to these defining times.
Marc:Because in SCTV, for a lot of my generation, for people that come to it later, for people who've been on SNL or people who've been in movies like yourself, I mean, this was a fucking amazing show.
Marc:And how did that sort of happen?
Marc:So you did the two movies with Ivan Reitman.
Marc:You did Godspell.
Marc:You did, what'd you do, a bid on Lauren's show?
Marc:Like it was one show?
Guest:You know, I can't remember how many I did, actually.
Guest:Because I was doing a lot of the variety.
Guest:Variety was really big in that era, the 70s.
Guest:So I was on Robert Klein's show.
Guest:I was on David Steinberg's show.
Guest:And was Robert Klein in Canada?
Guest:He did his show out of Canada.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He did it.
Guest:My gosh.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:He did it out of where I think Saturday Night Live is on NBC, that studio.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't know why, but I was on his show.
Guest:David Steinberg was out of Toronto.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because he's Canadian.
Right.
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Guest:I did so many of those things with Dick Cavett and Alan King and all those wonderful.
Guest:Jon Stewart when he was just starting out and Bob.
Guest:What is his name?
Guest:Bob.
Guest:He now does sports announcing.
Guest:Costas?
Marc:Oh, Bob Costas.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They all had talk shows that had a lot of people and variety on them and SCTV was big.
Guest:And so, yes, I've been with some great people because of SCTV for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, how did SCTV start?
Guest:So out of Second City.
Guest:So after I'd done a lot of theater in Toronto and dinner theaters, you're right, and musicals, there were auditions for Second City.
Guest:Somebody asked me to audition.
Guest:Gilda was doing it then.
Marc:Was it when the Second City opened in Toronto?
Guest:Yes, it was the second company.
Guest:Gilda and, I'm going to get all these names wrong, Brian Doyle Murray, I think Bill Murray, Dan Aykroyd were part of the first company.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:I'm sure I've got some names wrong, and forgive me out there, but I know Gilda was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I remember seeing her when I was in the audience.
Guest:John Candy?
Guest:I don't know if John was in there.
Guest:He was in the company I was in.
Marc:You were in, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so when they started in Toronto, those are the Murray brothers and Gilda.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who was the other one?
Guest:Dan Aykroyd.
Marc:Yeah, so they were the ones you remember.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I remember sitting in the audience and watching Gilda, and I'd never seen anybody that could do that physical comedy and be so feminine.
Guest:She just reminded me of Lucille Ball.
Guest:I'd never seen anybody that could do that.
Guest:It was extraordinary.
Marc:And this was after you worked with her?
Marc:After Godspell.
Guest:After Godspell, you got it.
Marc:But that was all scripted.
Guest:That was all scripted.
Guest:But this was real sketch, and she would get to be her own personality.
Guest:She didn't have to fit into any groove.
Guest:It was magical, really, to see that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like seeing Janice?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A little bit lower, less drugs involved, I think.
Marc:Sure, but just like, oh my God, this person's a force and there's nobody like her.
Guest:You're absolutely right.
Guest:I guess in some way it was different because Janice Joplin had nothing to do with my world.
Guest:She was a rock musician, but Gilda was a comedian.
Guest:And so I probably felt pangs of competition or maybe excitement or let me get a stab at this.
Guest:So I did audition for it.
Marc:But first you did, you actually just did live stuff at the company.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that was mostly improv or mostly sketch or as a mixture of stuff?
Guest:So the format of Second City is always a scripted show and then the last half hour is improv and that improv turns into the next scripted show and that's how it works.
Marc:And how many of the characters that you, like of the dozens you do, like which one was there all the way through?
Guest:Edith Prickley was there all the way through because of Catherine O'Hara.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So we had a one night there was a suggestion from the audience that we do a parent teacher conference in which the parents were parents of delinquent kids.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And we said, okay.
Guest:So we ran backstage and the idea of Second City is to bring in clothes from Salvation Army or home or whatever and have them back there as a closet for characters.
Guest:Catherine had brought in her mother's
Guest:faux leopard skin jacket and hat from the 50s.
Guest:And it was back there amongst all the clothes.
Guest:But I saw the leopard when I thought of delinquent kids.
Guest:All right, parents.
Guest:And I put it on and put on the hat and I found some black rimmed glasses and there was some red lipstick that I smeared on.
Guest:I didn't even know who the character was.
Guest:And I knocked on the teacher door, the door of the teacher's conference.
Guest:And Catherine was a teacher and she opened the door and she said, hello, you must be Mrs. Prickley.
Guest:And I said, that's right, dear.
Guest:Edith's the name.
Guest:Sebastian's the game.
Guest:And then Catherine reminds me that she tried different names every week, but Mrs. Prickley was the one that stuck.
Marc:That stuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you didn't know Catherine until you were in the troupe?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Catherine's a lot younger.
Guest:So I think she's eight years younger than I am.
Guest:So we didn't travel in the same circle.
Marc:Because the two of you together is hilarious.
Guest:I love her.
Marc:Because there's two different types of this comic energy.
Marc:Like all of you have.
Marc:That's the thing that you can't really.
Marc:I can't put my finger on really or wrap my brain around.
Marc:Like if I ask actors, well, what is your process?
Marc:I don't fucking know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that what they say?
Marc:Well, I mean, ultimately, you know, you're going to train, you can do this, you can do that, but it's going to come from, it's all serving whatever's inside of you.
Marc:That is sort of unexplainable.
Marc:But like as time goes on and it seems like people that come from Second City and people that come from that kind of background doing several characters, that there's some sort of weird constant
Marc:There's this comedic spirit that exists and that you can always sort of see with any of them, with Gilda, with you, with Catherine, with Flaherty even, and like Candy.
Marc:Like there's this force that just lives on stage.
Guest:i think that's right i think it's cellular and i think it's like a little giggle that's inside that's always wanting to burst open right that's it's always kind of titillating yeah and with that combination of people we brought those little giggles out that sounds so sophomoric to say giggles but i feel like there's a it's like alka-seltzer it's like constantly fizzing away you know okay and now this person's gonna make it really come to the top yeah yeah that's how we served one another everyone fizzles at a different level that's
Guest:That's right.
Guest:But we were helping each other's fizzle, fizzle.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So who in that cast, so was you and Catherine and John came?
Marc:Candy was there?
Marc:Yes, for sure.
Marc:And it's weird to me that there's this history of large personalities that come out of Second City, like Belushi or... Chris Farley.
Marc:Chris Farley.
Marc:But it's almost like they cast him.
Marc:Where's our big guy?
Guest:I know.
Guest:But you know, John, I think...
Guest:What's so tragic about John's death, besides that he's not here, is that I really think his career would have expanded.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:He was a beautiful, dramatic actor.
Guest:And I can only imagine that at one time he wouldn't be big, that he would be on a diet or lose weight.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it's not like he had to rest on being overweight.
Marc:No, no, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:yeah but just the personality oh for sure everything was big about john yeah yeah yeah yeah and he was like that when he was a kid like when you knew him i mean you guys are in your 20s john candy was exactly the person you think he is yeah is who he was right there's no filter yeah just everything you can imagine about john is who he was
Marc:Yeah, and you loved him.
Guest:Loved him.
Marc:Yeah, so sad.
Marc:Loved him.
Guest:Yeah, I loved him.
Guest:I love all of the, you know, we're very close.
Guest:Catherine was at Pippin last night.
Guest:Marty was.
Guest:Eugene's kid, Eugene Levy's kids because he was in Toronto.
Guest:Marty's kids.
Guest:You know, we're very connected.
Marc:Still.
Marc:Yeah, very.
Marc:I don't hear that a lot.
Marc:No.
Marc:Because I'm sort of, as a fan and as somebody who's sort of isolated, I always make these assumptions that like, oh, you're still in touch with someone.
Marc:They're like, no, I haven't talked to them in a while.
Marc:That happens a lot.
Marc:You make these assumptions because of the emotions you've invested in somebody's work with other people.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You just want everybody to be pals.
Guest:Well, I think we are.
Guest:I just did a book signing at Santa Monica Library, and Marty was there as my special guest, and then I was talking about something, and Marty said, well, why don't you ask Catherine?
Guest:I said, Catherine, and Catherine was in the back row, and then she came up, and then we started, you know, it's...
Guest:Oh my gosh, I don't know.
Marc:Jarring memories.
Marc:It's beautiful.
Guest:You know, we see each other a lot, so it's not like anything has to be jarred, believe me.
Guest:We know everything that's going on in everybody's lives, and we hang out.
Marc:All right, so out of the stage show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whose ideas is, who brings the TV show together?
Guest:Oh gosh, okay.
Guest:I believe that it was Joe and Harold Ramis and Andrew Alexander, our wonderful producer.
Guest:They called us all in and we brainstormed what the show should be.
Guest:They sold it to the CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Company.
Guest:We did it there and then NBC bought it.
Guest:I know everything, as I'm saying to you right now, is factually incorrect because I'm so bad.
Marc:I like that you're saying it with confidence.
Guest:Oh, 100%.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a loud projection.
Guest:100% factually incorrect.
Guest:Completely.
Guest:But I'm going to continue because something in there is the truth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And you know that I mean well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's all that's important.
Marc:She means well.
Marc:Kind of got some of the facts for her.
Marc:But all right.
Marc:So you do how many seasons?
Marc:How many shows?
Guest:Seven years we did.
Guest:Jeez.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I remember watching it when I was a kid, and it was exotic somehow.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where were you living?
Guest:New Mexico.
Guest:When you were watching STTV?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So it must have been on NBC, I guess, then.
Guest:That's very unusual.
Guest:Were you in the music world?
Marc:No, I was a kid.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:I was a big comedy fan.
Guest:Oh, big comedy fan.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So, because most people were either in New York or Los Angeles that watched a show that late, or they were musicians doing drugs, or I guess comedy fans.
Guest:Judd Apatow, I don't know if you're the same age, but he was a big fan when he was a young kid, too, because he loved comedy.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Fascinating.
Marc:And my parents used to let me stay up to watch SNL.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So I don't even remember where it fell on the schedule.
Marc:Was it actually after SNL?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it was like this weird thing.
Marc:It was like one to two-thirds.
Marc:Yeah, it was crazy.
Guest:Some insane thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was Lorne part of that?
Marc:Bringing it to the States?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:NBC, that was Brandon Tartikoff's years.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:And...
Guest:I don't know how all the inner workings happened, but we were on NBC, and then we were in Edmonton, and now people still laugh at it.
Guest:My kids laugh at the scene, so that makes me feel good.
Marc:And when you guys are all working, was the writing process a group writing process?
Marc:How did it work?
Marc:Because you had the world.
Marc:The world was this network.
Marc:And there were characters that were there every week in one form or another, but everybody was coming in with these different characters.
Marc:So was there this process of like, I have a new character, I have a new impression, can we integrate this person into this?
Marc:And how did it work?
Guest:Sometimes it worked like that, and sometimes scenes were generated, and then we had to create characters.
Guest:Sometimes scenes were written, and we had no idea who we were playing, and it wasn't until a wig...
Guest:was on our head and the costume was delivered by Jewel Hallmeyer that we knew who the character was.
Guest:Sometimes we'd have the wig costume and the scene in the chair and still didn't know what we were doing until another fellow cast member would say, why don't you try it with a lisp?
Guest:Or why don't you... Yeah.
Guest:It was an enormously...
Guest:enormously collaborative experience.
Guest:And I mean that in every morsel of the word.
Guest:Everybody contributed.
Guest:The cameramen, if they had an idea, we listened to it.
Guest:The catering people, why don't you try Mrs. Prickley?
Guest:Why not?
Guest:We were in a little creative bubble and nobody was wrong.
Guest:We just took anything that made us laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:i think was in the show we have to fill 90 minutes right yeah yeah so it was it's interesting though like at that time that you guys started doing second city i mean where were the where were the murray brothers had he gone to new york already i mean how did that work did you remain friends with him brian or either or bill murray um you know i saw brian door murray at harrow ramus's funeral sadly um there were a lot of a reunion for a lot of people i
Guest:I haven't seen Bill for a while, but he was a guest on our show.
Guest:I didn't really know Bill.
Guest:Brian, I knew a little bit better.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I'd done a movie with Brian Domer, Club Paradise.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So we hung out in Jamaica for many weeks.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, okay.
Guest:We all knew each other after that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so, okay, so after you do seven seasons of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like a lot of them, what happened?
Marc:Where was your career at that point?
Guest:John's career was really taking off.
Guest:John's career really was taking off more than other people.
Guest:He really, you know, he just, I don't know, he loved the business.
Guest:He loved having a business sense, creating parts, always had his finger in different pies, always surrounded by people.
Guest:I didn't even know what an entourage was.
Guest:Now I understand that's what was around him.
Guest:Always people in his office and his rooms and people in his car that were just, you know, the taxi driver.
Guest:Now he's his assistant.
Guest:It was like a world.
Guest:You know, he just was just celebrated joy.
Guest:What can I tell you?
Marc:The galaxy of John.
Guest:The galaxy of John.
Guest:What a great way to put it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So John's career was certainly with John Hughes, I think.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It's really on his way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we were moving to L.A.
Guest:We were all moving to L.A.
Marc:Everybody.
Guest:Yeah, and then people started working in different things, like Club Paradise that Eugene was in and Rick and myself.
Marc:Was that the first movie?
Marc:Your first movie here?
Guest:I want to say the first movie I did here was called Holy Moses, but I could be wrong.
Marc:Wait, was that with Richard Pryor?
Guest:Lorraine Newman was in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why do I think that?
Marc:That was a weird movie.
Guest:The first movie I did in the United States, no, was a movie called Soup for One.
Guest:And I can't even remember who was in it.
Marc:Wait, here we go.
Marc:I can look right here.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Actually, Holy Moses was at least shot in 1980.
Marc:1980.
Guest:Okay, that's right.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:And Super One.
Marc:Yeah, that was... Oh, I remember Holy Moses.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It's a Dudley Moore movie.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Oh, what a weird cast.
Marc:Look at these guys.
Marc:James Coco, Jack Gifford.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Dom DeLuise.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:John Houseman.
Marc:Was that a Mel Brooks movie?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:Directed by Alan Metter.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And Richard Pryor played Pharaoh.
Marc:I kind of remember.
Guest:I was a tiny little part in it.
Guest:So you probably didn't even like... No, no, I wasn't with anybody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:All right, then Soup for One happens in 82.
Guest:Okay, there you go.
Guest:That's making sense.
Marc:Is it?
Guest:I had a son in 81, a son in 83.
Guest:Then I was a mom, mom, mom, mom, mom.
Guest:We moved back to Toronto.
Marc:Wait, who'd you marry?
Guest:I married Bob Dolman, who's a writer who wrote Far and Away, and he wrote... Still Around?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:What is that darling movie?
Guest:I can't believe it.
Guest:Ron Howard directed All the Little People.
Guest:Why can't I remember the name of that movie?
Marc:Was it Over the Rainbow?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Now you've got to look it up because we have to say the right thing.
Guest:Ron Howard.
Guest:Willow, Willow.
Marc:Oh, yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he wrote a sitcom for Showtime called Poison that I was in.
Guest:I had my own series, very limited, for a while.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:What was that called?
Guest:Roxy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were doing all the things?
Guest:I was doing things, but it was a time that I was bringing up my kids.
Marc:So you were focused on being a mom.
Guest:I was focused on in between, and that was not great.
Marc:But you liked being a mom?
Guest:I did, but when I was a mom, I was slightly restless, and when I was working, I was slightly guilty.
Guest:So it was never a great, great mix until they went to college.
Marc:The kids turned out okay?
Guest:The kids were great.
Guest:And when they went to college, I said, okay, now I can really focus.
Marc:When did the marriage fall apart?
Guest:Marriage fell apart in maybe when they were three and five.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Early?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:But we're still friends.
Guest:Are you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:God, yeah.
Guest:Our oldest son just got married two weeks ago in Sonoma.
Guest:We were there together.
Guest:And he just called me yesterday, you know, two days ago.
Guest:He's in Sweden teaching a screenwriting class right now.
Guest:But he called me and said, hey, I saw your article in the LA Times.
Guest:Congratulations.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:You were always friends from the get-go of the divorce?
Oh.
Guest:It was painful, but we always put the kids first.
Guest:Never was there animosity.
Guest:That is really the truth.
Guest:But it was painful, sure.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there's no animosity.
Guest:There's no animosity.
Marc:It's different, I guess, when you have kids.
Marc:Because you've got to be there for the kids.
Guest:I don't know if everybody does that, but it was certainly a priority for us.
Marc:And that must have helped them out, the kids.
Guest:You know, that's a very interesting question.
Guest:Actually, I don't know if it does.
Guest:I wonder if...
Guest:the desire to keep something together or intact when it's not intact gives a false message of hope.
Guest:And I wonder if people that just say, listen, this is final.
Guest:We're not going to have Christmases together.
Guest:We're not going to pretend we're a family because we're not.
Guest:We're divorced.
Guest:I don't know if that's easier.
Marc:Like if the kids understand why their parents aren't together.
Marc:Like, you know, like, of course they're not together.
Marc:How could they be together?
Marc:But if there's still this diplomacy and this emotion.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Then it's sort of like, why aren't you guys... 100%.
Guest:And I don't know if we could even describe why, but it didn't work out.
Marc:Yeah, but if everybody's... I don't know.
Guest:It's an interesting thing.
Guest:The thing that I got the most from writing this book was...
Guest:That after all that's said and done, it's authenticity that trumps all.
Guest:The people that I'm the most attracted to, and I mean people at Starbucks serving me coffee, if I can see that they're really comfortable in their own skin and what they're giving you is who they really are, you want to hang out with them.
Guest:And I found out after writing this book, I couldn't be... I didn't know how...
Guest:to fabricate anything i was like gee shouldn't i make this more interesting i i just had to this is whether you like it or not there's funny there's not so funny it's just who i am i just it was that was a gratifying thing for me yeah and i think that like not a lot of times the people who are authentic aren't necessarily comfortable in their own skin but they can't help but be themselves
Guest:That's good.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:No, and I find that charming when they say, you know what?
Guest:I couldn't be less comfortable, but at least I'm telling you that.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That's a great thing.
Guest:I was talking to a young kid who was auditioning for something.
Guest:I'm just really nervous.
Guest:I said, you know what?
Guest:I'd go in and I'd just say, I'm really nervous, but here's what I got for you.
Guest:I don't know, I find it refreshing when people do that.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:I'm that guy.
Marc:You are?
Marc:Yeah, I can't.
Marc:Even when I'm hiding emotions, it makes it worse.
Marc:If I'm hiding anger, it seems like the effect of it is even worse than if I just get angry.
Marc:Because then people are like, what's going on?
Marc:You're better off just saying it.
Marc:But it's weird because we live in a culture, and I think it speaks a little bit to careerism in general and looking back and being more decisive, is that there is this kind of premium put on kind of...
Marc:Pretending like you have your shit together.
Marc:Is there?
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:There's like, you know, positivity, which I find completely annoying.
Marc:Like people who are like, you know, fuck you, I'm positive.
Marc:That didn't sound very positive.
Marc:But there is this sense that.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Because after talking to so many people in here.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:There's this idea that everything's moving so fast.
Marc:Everybody's so preoccupied with so many things that if somebody is either in pain or painfully authentic or seems to be a heavy burden emotionally, even in small interactions, there's this idea that's sort of like, I got no time for this.
Marc:I hope it works out for you.
Marc:And it's always sort of upset me that there is this...
Guest:there's it's not even repression it's just this decision that you know this stays inside this comes out and i we all make those decisions here's what i believe it is and you tell me if you if this resonates for you i believe um it's a question of intimacy i think what what what by the way i'm holding my phone as i talk about intimacy thank god i'm not checking my emails yeah i think um
Guest:With all of social media and with thinking you're missing out on something if you're not checking every second, what it disallows is settling in the moment and really connecting on an intimate level.
Guest:And I think when someone's in pain, it requires of you an intimate connection.
Guest:And I think people, one, don't know how to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And two, they're frightened of their own lack of ability to be intimate.
Guest:That's what I think.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:I don't know if that's, it's, you know, you have to practice things.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And if you're constantly thinking, okay, now let me see.
Guest:I've got to return that.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And then did anybody tweet about the show last night?
Guest:Look, I went on a few weeks ago.
Guest:I was in San Francisco doing the Pippin.
Guest:And the theater asked me to sign on Instagram, and I didn't even know what that was.
Guest:So I said, all right, okay.
Guest:And so I'm on Instagram, and now I'm like insanely addicted to it, like documenting my every move.
Guest:So in like the first hour, I got 200 followers or whatever the hell it was.
Guest:And then I said...
Guest:You know, literally, my life is too fucking short.
Guest:I'm not going to do this anymore.
Guest:This is insane.
Guest:Like, I'm walking down the street, on Market Street, and I'm like, oh, maybe if I put myself in front of the Godiva chocolates, I can manipulate a photo, and then I can think of a saying, should I eat the chocolate?
Guest:I'm thinking, what a waste of time.
Guest:How about if I, God forbid, called my sister and said, how are you?
Guest:Tell me how you're doing.
Guest:You know, so that's what I think you get really caught up in.
Marc:Well, I'm telling you, man, social networking platforms for people who need validation are a little bit narcissistic.
Marc:It's like cancer.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's just going to eat you up.
Guest:But how about, though, when you sign contracts now, from what I hear, for network shows, they actually have in the contracts and we want you to tweet?
Guest:Is that what you said?
Marc:Well, they learned their lesson.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Am I fabricating that?
Marc:I'm sure it's in there.
Okay.
Marc:Because a lot of times, when you do something like this, which is primarily computer-based, everything's integrated.
Marc:So a lot of times when people, they want you to do something to bring more people to their thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, that's I mean, that's sort of the nature of a movie anyways.
Marc:But but like a lot of times, like people might even hire you or ask you to do something with it being unspoken that you're going to self promote.
Marc:So I guess in a contractual sense that if somebody has some juice on Twitter or juice in general.
Marc:They don't want to go with the assumption.
Marc:They want to say, well, you're going to do this if we do this as part of the promotion thing.
Marc:So you are your own publicity machine.
Marc:And it is a little crazy.
Guest:Mark, what happens if you don't do it?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You disappear.
Marc:You disappear.
Guest:But is it true?
Marc:What?
Guest:I don't have one close friend, Catherine, Marty, Eugene.
Guest:None of them have Facebook, Twitter accounts.
Guest:No Facebook?
Guest:No.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I swear to God.
Guest:I don't even know how to do it.
Guest:No, I'm telling you.
Marc:Sometimes it's generational, but Facebook generally, my mother's on Facebook, so it's a way that people share pictures and things with the family far away.
Marc:There is a use for that.
Guest:I don't know about that.
Guest:Can't you just send them through the mail?
Marc:The mail?
Marc:You mean like in an envelope?
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:I don't know when does it.
Marc:You can email them.
Marc:You can scan them and email them.
Marc:That might work.
Guest:Think how exciting it would be.
Guest:Let's take one second.
Guest:If a postman came up to you, a mailman, and delivered a letter.
Guest:Just think about this.
Marc:With a picture in it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I like that.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:It's a little outdated, but it's nice.
Marc:Look, and I'm saying that, I'm not saying that from my own point of view.
Marc:I'm just saying that to answer your question, I think that, you know, to really engage with these things, it requires maintenance.
Marc:It requires time.
Marc:It requires maintaining a presence.
Marc:And if you're not compulsive about it or needy enough to feel like you have to, like that feeling you had with Instagram, that has to drive everything in your life.
Marc:That weird sort of like, and then I'm going to do the thing.
Marc:Oh, I just got an idea.
Marc:I'm going to tweet it.
Guest:But the flip side of it is you, if it isn't enough to think you're a failure every second, that's completely emphasized.
Guest:I'm not doing enough.
Guest:If I don't take a, okay, now I'm walking into Starbucks.
Guest:What if I took a picture of me with a guy selling me my latte?
Guest:That would be funny.
Guest:Then trying to think of how to be funny around that.
Guest:And oh my God.
Marc:And not get paid for it.
Yeah.
Marc:Do it all for free.
Marc:Oh, my gosh.
Marc:Be a genius and provide that content for nothing.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Just because, like, I want people to feed me.
Guest:Is it or do you think it pays off?
Guest:What do you think?
Marc:Well, like, I think really.
Guest:Yeah, I really want to know.
Guest:I'd love to know the nitty-gritty of what you're getting back from.
Marc:My personal experience is that it enables me, you know, when you're at a level of whatever I'm at.
Marc:You know, I'm not a big star, but, you know, I have a thing going.
Marc:So if I'm gonna tour, or I'm gonna do a date, or I'm gonna promote a podcast like your podcast, it enables me, like Twitter specifically, enables a very quick tap in to people that are my fans.
Marc:So if I say I'm gonna be in Minneapolis,
Marc:Like, I can't really count on my notoriety to sell tickets.
Marc:I can't really count on the club, you know, their website.
Marc:Who the fuck's going to go to a club website?
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:So, you know, you're really thinking, like, hopefully I'll do a local radio show.
Marc:I'll promote it on my podcast, and I'll tweet it a bunch of times before I show up.
Guest:How many people do you have on your Twitter account?
Guest:Like 400,000.
Guest:So that, it would seem to me, really pay off.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That makes sense.
Guest:I have 22.
Guest:Maybe two of those people are going to be in Minneapolis.
Guest:I mean, you know, seriously, because I wasn't on it for three years.
Guest:I guess I got to get back on.
Guest:So...
Marc:It does require diligence.
Marc:It does.
Marc:It does require sort of like, you know, posting funny things and getting people that you know who also have Twitter followers.
Marc:No, there is a process to it.
Guest:But it pays off.
Guest:You can see.
Marc:A bit.
Marc:It can pay off if you were diligent and you maintain the relationship.
Marc:But like anything else, you know, everyone's got a feed.
Marc:They follow, you know, a thousand people.
Marc:So you're going to tweet a little thing and maybe they'll see it or maybe it'll run down their feed.
Marc:It really doesn't.
Marc:It's ridiculous, but I do think it makes a difference.
Marc:But then there are some times where I could announce something on the podcast.
Marc:I can do a radio show in town.
Marc:I could tweet it for a week.
Marc:I could do local television.
Marc:And then a week later, someone goes, I know you're in Chicago.
Marc:I'm like, what do I got to do?
Marc:You want me to come over?
Guest:This is so funny.
Guest:I'm in the beautiful Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Literally had been on two morning talk shows.
Guest:Pippin was about to open.
Guest:There was stuff everywhere.
Guest:Just been at the San Francisco bookshop to do my book.
Guest:And I got in the elevator and the guy said, are you retired?
Guest:Are you still acting?
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:Wrong thing to say.
Guest:Seriously, what do you have to do?
Guest:So this is what else I've learned.
Guest:That, wow, you can't take yourself seriously.
Guest:It is something else.
Guest:Because what are you going to do?
Marc:It's weird, though, because back in the day when there were three TV networks and there were primary radio shows in every market, there were more people on the same page.
Marc:No one can dictate what the hell anyone's doing for entertainment or how they're spending their time.
Marc:I mean, with the computer, how the hell do you know?
Marc:When the media landscape was more intimate, it was a lot easier to consolidate attention.
Guest:That's absolutely right.
Marc:And it's very tricky now.
Marc:And it can be even somebody like I came to Twitter later.
Marc:I don't do Facebook at all.
Marc:And I find it annoying.
Marc:But like for me, it's like, I don't want to do this.
Marc:You know, what do I care?
Marc:And then you realize, like, no one can do it for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, I guess you can.
Guest:People hire people.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But even then, you can.
Marc:But it's weird.
Marc:You have to, you know, in the world of theater and like Broadway shows and stuff, I think that there is somewhat of a built in audience or people that love that.
Marc:So the people that they're going to market to are the people that would love to see that.
Marc:But like in a general sense, you know, it's really on you.
Marc:I mean, because, you know, like if you really think about it, it's going to be in the free weekly.
Marc:You know, what year is it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You want to do an interview for the free weekly with the thing that people might read in the coffee shop?
Marc:Who the hell knows how people get their fucking information?
Guest:Isn't it true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can't predict what's going to be successful and what isn't going to be.
Marc:Never.
Guest:So what's the answer to all of this?
Guest:In my day, they would say, what's it all about?
Guest:I think, you know, what is it?
Guest:Stay busy.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Marty Short always says that.
Guest:Work begets work.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And nobody cares.
Guest:It used to be, I don't know, maybe that's a wrong move and people are going to think that.
Guest:Number one, no, that's not happening.
Guest:Keep busy.
Marc:I think that's good.
Marc:Well, yeah, I think when you're younger and you kind of, you got a lot of people talking in your ear and about how they're going to design your career and what they think you should and shouldn't do.
Marc:It gets to a point after a certain age where you're like, can I just make a living, please?
Marc:I'd like to have insurance.
Guest:if that's possible I prefer not to die alone if we can make that happen oh my god that's so true wait we want so they've just been dwindled down to the basic thing maybe if I could have a dinner with a family member once a year that'd be good it's not you know really if my kids could call I don't want to impose but if you might be able to just check in once a month
Marc:That'd be nice.
Marc:Oh my God, that's so true.
Marc:But it's weird because when you're in the career that we're in, which are very selfish and self-driven and has a lot to do with ego, I think we don't, like, and I'm saying this, you know, with a heavy heart in a sense that, you know, a lot of that stuff drifts away because you're looking, I used to do this joke about how it took me a long time to realize that Hollywood wasn't my parents.
Marc:That like...
Marc:That joke still works.
Marc:Of course it does.
Marc:Because there's something really childish about this idea of that type of validation.
Marc:You know, I'm going to come out, I'm going to be, everyone's going to love me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And after a certain point, there's a heartache to it.
Marc:But I think in returning back to what we were talking about earlier about life, is that there's no way to avoid that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you can temper that, but that, you know, that joy that you're able to experience in a genuine way, you know, comes from that realization that it all is a little heartbreaking.
Marc:And there is disappointment, but the truth of the matter is, is that if you don't let it consume you, it's very humbling and it makes you appreciate things more.
Guest:It does.
Guest:And the other, and we just add one thing to that, not that I can practice it, but the times that I've had absolutely no expectations about anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Always have been the best.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Or when you genuinely don't give a fuck.
Guest:How about that?
Marc:When does that ever happen?
Marc:It happens occasionally.
Marc:Rarely.
Marc:When it does, it's the best place to be.
Guest:I can't even take how beautiful that is.
Guest:It's the best thing.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Do you like it?
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever.
Marc:You don't.
Marc:No, I don't care.
Guest:You get up here and fucking do it.
Guest:That's where I go.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because everybody's got an opinion.
Guest:That's what I love.
Guest:No, you're so right when you don't care.
Guest:But I'm going to do the more Buddhist approach, which is to let go of expectations of hope, despair, disappointment, whatever it is.
Guest:Maybe I'm going to fail.
Guest:Maybe I'm going to be success.
Guest:Well, doesn't it always come down to this?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Being in the moment.
Guest:See, now I feel like this interview, and maybe that's a huge skill set that you have.
Guest:You're able to really make this so in the moment.
Guest:I'm never looking at you thinking, he's thinking what he's going to ask me next.
Guest:He's glancing.
Guest:I don't have any questions.
Guest:No, it's beautiful.
Guest:You're really... That's...
Guest:Great.
Guest:So I'll leave here thinking that was a nice way to spend how long we've been talking.
Marc:An hour or so.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:But see, but this adds up to me because like, you know, in however you judge yourself, I mean, you found, you know, the most success on stage and that there's nothing more in the moment than that.
Marc:I mean, that is it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And no matter what anybody thinks about the nature of Broadway shows or what theater is or isn't anymore or what it used to be, who the fuck knows?
Marc:The truth of the matter is, if you're in a hit show, people are going to come see it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the bottom line is that every night's going to be different.
Marc:Whether you know the lines or not, there's an immediate connection.
Marc:And it doesn't matter if you've done it 100 times, I would imagine, that like every audience, that juice is going to be there.
Marc:And you can feel it at different levels.
Marc:So there's nothing more present than that.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So it seems to me that somebody with your personality, you've really hit the perfect thing.
Marc:Oh, that's so great.
Marc:Whether you appreciate it all the time or not.
Guest:I do.
Marc:Because what the fuck is a movie?
Marc:You're going to spend six months in a trailer to be in something that might not even make it to fucking theaters?
Marc:I mean, how is that anything but torture?
Guest:People love it, though.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Steve Martin can be in his trailer...
Guest:and write an entire play in between takes.
Guest:Oh my God, I actually have a thing in my book about multitasking, how when I was doing 30 Rock, I said, okay, today I'm actually going to try to write a chapter in my book while I'm in the trailer, even though I know in one second I've got to go out.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:I couldn't do it because I was saying, I got to learn my lines.
Guest:What if I don't know my lines?
Guest:I couldn't stop.
Guest:And why did I get on this thing?
Marc:But you're that
Marc:kind of person because you because you you you got on this thing because some people love the the the sort of painstaking work of sitting around all day waiting that's right so wow so not for me yeah but but that's because that's not the kind of people we are you you know would that drive you crazy yeah i don't know what the hell to do with myself how many times can you masturbate you know you know
Guest:Wow, this has been going well.
Guest:You used the M word right at the end.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Guest:Could you do that in a trailer?
Guest:Wow, that's okay.
Marc:Of course you can do it anywhere.
Marc:You don't want to do it in public, but I mean, you can generally tuck away somewhere and find a place to do that.
Marc:But I mean, like if I'm in a trailer, it's sort of like, I'm going to go over the craft service table again.
Guest:I wonder what kind of snacks they have.
Guest:100%.
Guest:And you know they're not going to be good.
Marc:No, but you're going to eat them.
Marc:100%.
Marc:You're going to be like, I'm not going to eat the chocolate in the nuts.
Marc:And then two hours later, you're like, oh, it's a little chocolate.
Marc:And then at the end of the shoot, you're 10 pounds heavier.
Marc:You're like, what the fuck happened?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's so true.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:We're the same person.
Guest:Oh, geez.
Guest:Well, at least a sitcom, though, you can approximate a family because you are playing a family.
Guest:You're in a family.
Marc:And also live sitcoms.
Marc:I have no experience with it, but I know for myself, and I think this speaks also to the idea of authenticity, is that either you're a person that kind of needs to be engaged and needs to be thinking about stuff and driving yourself crazy.
Marc:Because there's something about, if you've got a noisy brain like that, if you're an anxious, fucking needy person, I make myself crazy before I go on stage.
Marc:You do?
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:That's so reassuring.
Marc:And I don't need to.
Marc:Don't you?
Marc:I used to be terrified.
Marc:I mean, I don't know if you ever experienced that.
Marc:Terrified.
Guest:What the hell?
Guest:I go over my lines.
Guest:I've done Pippin now for 10 months.
Guest:Every night, I'm going over my lines before I go on.
Marc:Because of the fear of like, what if I don't know?
Marc:100%.
Marc:It's horrifying.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But this doesn't terrify you, I bet, does it, to talking to people?
Marc:No, no, once you get going, before you come over, before I go over, I'm like, oh my God, it's why she's done so much stuff.
Marc:But I do that all the time, but I know in talking to somebody that the conversation is what it's all about.
Marc:but i don't want to you know i don't want to be disrespectful and pay short shrift or like you know i want people to know that you won a tony award i want them to know you won emmy awards i want them to know that you know you're an important person in comedy but ultimately you know that's a sidebar you know to me that that's not the that's not the talk yeah yeah you know i don't know what the hell is going to happen with the talk yeah but but with stage performing it took me 20 years as a comic and i'm not even that well known as a comic i mean somehow or another this is what i'm known for now which is fine but
Marc:In the last five years, I used to walk into a room where I'm going to perform, and I would see the audience come in, and I'd immediately go, that guy's going to be a problem.
Marc:That table, they're going to be a fucking problem.
Marc:And that's what I go up with.
Marc:They're not going to like me.
Marc:Half of these people clearly are not people I would talk to.
Marc:So how the hell am I going to talk to them?
Marc:But now it's weird.
Marc:I don't know what's happened, but I'm grateful for it.
Marc:I'll go to a venue, I'll go to a theater, and I'll be backstage even before the audience comes in, and I'll look at the stage.
Marc:I'm like, I can't wait to get out.
Guest:What do you say?
Marc:I can't wait to get out there.
Guest:Oh, I love that.
Marc:What switch for you?
Guest:That's so interesting.
Marc:I'm just comfortable now.
Marc:I'm not afraid.
Guest:I'm not afraid.
Guest:You think it's age?
Guest:Success?
Guest:What do you think it is?
Marc:Therapy?
Marc:What happened?
Marc:Who's your therapist?
Marc:I want to go.
Marc:happened was you know because of what I'm doing in here and because of the work I'm doing you know this is all very true to me so like I'm speaking as myself a lot of times you do five minutes on television do a character here and there even stand up for years you know it was me fighting with myself and fighting with the audience and you become more comfortable with yourself that's right so and I know what I'm capable of and I know what I can do I know that the sort of parameters of my talent and I know that most of the people now are in the room and they know me yeah so it's sort of like hey what's let's continue the conversation
Guest:Yeah, good.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Fabulous.
Marc:So it's a relief.
Guest:Yeah, I think, you know what else I think is that your point about there's so much out there, you don't know what's going to be successful, what somebody's going to connect to if they even know you, that somehow takes a little of the edge off.
Guest:Because now I go and I think, oh, yeah.
Guest:Some people don't even know who I am.
Guest:They're not going to care.
Guest:They've got other problems.
Guest:One son's fighting in Iraq.
Guest:One son is unemployed.
Guest:They've got their own problems.
Guest:There's so much going on that it doesn't all rest on me.
Guest:Whereas it used to feel much more like that because there was less going on.
Marc:And also you were beating yourself up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, you somehow framed yourself as somebody that did not succeed in the way you wanted to.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And that, you know, then it just becomes, it's hard not to get bitter.
Marc:So, you know, fighting bitterness.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:It's a full-time job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's more exhausting than tweeting.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's why you're tweeting.
Marc:It's the war against self-pity.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Guest:It's funny because I've been doing a lot of interviews for the book and just so happy to be talking to everybody.
Guest:Everybody's been really great.
Guest:And then after I think, gee, I carried on like I've just so got it together.
Guest:And then I'll go back to my room and I'll be like...
Guest:I'm like the last person has it together.
Guest:Why did I carry on?
Guest:Because in some way- You're an entertainer.
Guest:What do you mean, why?
Guest:No, because in some ways, Mark, here's what I've learned.
Guest:In some ways, I do have it together.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Of course there are going to be down times.
Guest:I've just learned to integrate them.
Guest:I'm sorry to keep going back to my book.
Guest:It's crazy, but that's what I found.
Guest:Harper Collins asked me to write a collection of short, funny stories like Nora Ephron and David.
Guest:And I started off, yeah.
Guest:And then I'm like writing stories about my dad and stories about why I fly to Atlanta to get my haircut.
Guest:Because I realize that to entertain doesn't mean that it has to be funny all the time.
Guest:That to entertain means that I can tell you honestly that I have fears and anxiety too.
Guest:And it can still be entertaining.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:And so that's, yeah.
Marc:And also it's what fuels you.
Marc:You know, like to be as dynamic a personality as you are, just naturally.
Marc:on stage.
Marc:What we do as artists, and I'm really wary to even use that word, is that somehow or another, either you've got to kind of mine your panic and anxiety and darkness or whatever into something relatable.
Marc:You want to be relieved of it with the audience.
Marc:That's a good way to put it.
Marc:It's like you're basically saying, I'm up here avoiding me.
Marc:Who wants in?
Guest:That is so good.
Guest:I'm up here avoiding me for two hours and 40 minutes.
Guest:Please, God, take this from me.
Guest:Take me from me.
Guest:I think that definitely...
Guest:was a hundred percent of how I performed and now I perform with listen I know my truth is your truth and I'm going to share it with you and together we can be uplifted right slightly shifted yeah no for me too yeah yeah yeah because I've always been autobiographical you know but there was a period but I never did it like through song and dance when I was evolving as a performer I was angry you were yeah yeah yeah
Marc:But it was genuine.
Guest:It's good for laughs, too, though.
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:It got a little heavy with me.
Marc:You know, it took me a long time to learn that they're laughing because they're uncomfortable.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Like angry, like who is an angry, who would you say is an angry comedian today?
Marc:Well, the curmudgeon is a great comedic archetype.
Marc:You know, like Louis Black is a great curmudgeon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the crank, like Letterman's a crank.
Marc:And, you know, there is a line to ride with that.
Marc:And it's a natural thing.
Marc:I was literally just angry.
Guest:It wasn't even an art form.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:You were just fucking angry.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I'm going to drag you through this.
Marc:And after, you know, 20 years of not building a following, I'm like, maybe I'm not everyone's idea of a night out, you know.
Guest:People can really relate to that.
Guest:I love that.
Marc:Yeah, well, I found that what's beneath it all is a certain sadness and there's a certain vulnerability.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:You're very sensitive people.
Marc:But I think you are genuinely a warm person and whatever hardships you've come through, that's just your humanity.
Marc:So you can't really avoid it.
Marc:But song and dance, I mean, see, I can't even watch musicals.
Guest:Because you're nervous when you watch them?
Marc:No, because I cry when people sing.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:And it's not even they're singing a sad song.
Marc:There's just something so vulnerable about it to me.
Guest:I think it's an acting teacher, Stella Adler, I think, who said, and I'm sure it's not her, but I love this.
Guest:We sing when we can't talk anymore.
Guest:And the best songs come out of...
Guest:I've expressed myself as much as I can and now I'm just going to sing.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:That's what I think.
Guest:That's why maybe you're connected to it.
Guest:The worst is when I'm going to talk and now all of a sudden I'm going to just take a moment.
Guest:It has nothing to do with what I just said and sing a song.
Guest:It's just like a cabaret act.
Guest:It's so disconnected, right?
Guest:But when somebody sings Some Enchanted Evening, that's come out of a beautiful relationship he's just had with the girl in South Pacific.
Guest:Or when I sing in Pippin, when Pippin says to me, Grandma, I don't have time for that.
Guest:And I say, time?
Guest:Now, you listen to me, Pippin.
Guest:I'm an expert on time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:when you are as old as i my dear and i hope that you never are you and then it goes on but that i think it comes i love that expression do you understand what i'm saying about that yeah that's so yeah and and this uh has this been the most rewarding experience on stage for you this has been a very rewarding experience yeah and what are the other uh big shows that you've been involved with that you probably shows yeah um
Guest:At Oklahoma and Candide and My Favorite Year and Fiddler on the Roof and a beautiful play I did with Geoffrey Rush, who studied mime with Jacques Lecoq in Paris, believe it or not, and Susan Sarandon called Exit the King.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that was big.
Marc:That was in New York.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it was great.
Guest:Yeah, he won the Tony.
Marc:And you were able, I imagine that in some of these, I don't know the shows, but like, you know, you're able to work dramatic chops and do like, you know.
Guest:And some of them, Fiddler for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And this show, which isn't particularly a dramatic show, Pippin.
Guest:We reimagined, so this character who's, she's a grandmother, Irene Ryan played it when it was originally done in the 70s.
Guest:It was kind of done vaudevillian, but I'm now that age, and I thought it resonates for me in a much different way.
Guest:And just because I'm 67 doesn't mean I should be doing a joke about a cliched grandmother.
Guest:We're living to be in our 90s.
Guest:I want this to be uplifting, and I don't want it to be a joke.
Guest:So we reinvented it, and I think it's been really beautiful.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Who thought of that?
Marc:You?
Guest:A little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:You know why?
Guest:That's one of those where you said, I don't mean I don't give a fuck, but the show didn't interest me.
Guest:The show interests me, but not that part in it, the way it was conceived interested me.
Marc:Because you could have swept through it.
Guest:It's a caricature.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:And highly successful for Ryan Ryan.
Guest:God bless you.
Guest:But being at this age, when this was written 40 years ago, 66 was old.
Guest:It isn't now.
Guest:So it was different for me.
Guest:And so it would have been fine if Diane Paulus, who reimagined this, the director, said, that's not how I would have think it.
Guest:I'd say, beautiful.
Guest:Then God bless you and I can't wait to see it, but it doesn't interest me.
Guest:But she was on board.
Guest:So it doesn't often happen like that, Mark.
Guest:It's a great gift when a director says, I'm going to listen to everything you have to say and show me.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:98% I'm going to let you do it.
Guest:I mean, it doesn't happen that often.
Guest:It was very collaborative.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Collaboration, and now it's a theme for this interview, was with SCTV.
Guest:That's what I thrive on, and I think that's why live performances are so great, because it's all, except when I do my one-person show, which is so lonely.
Guest:But I think, and I could never do stand-up for that, I love the community of actors.
Guest:I love being back in the green room, talking.
Guest:That's what gets me going.
Guest:I started out in children's theater in Maine when I was nine, and I guess it's in your bones, and that doesn't go away.
Marc:It's a world.
Marc:The world of theater is definitely a world.
Guest:It's a community.
Guest:Yeah, it's a community.
Marc:And now your folks, did they get to see your success?
Guest:You know, my mom didn't see so much of it because she died when she was very young.
Guest:My dad saw it but never appreciated it because I don't think success winning it.
Guest:When I won my first Tony, he said, now do you think you'll get a break?
Guest:I don't think he understood.
Guest:He didn't understand.
Guest:To him, you know, he grew up.
Guest:in the 40s and 50s when people that made it were Elizabeth Taylor and Clark Gable and big movie stars.
Guest:That was his idea of making it.
Guest:So being on SCTV certainly, you know, Jesus Christ, none of my friends thought that was funny.
Guest:When are you going to do something funny?
Guest:Carol Burnett was funny to him.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That's so brutal because I have that with my father too and someone just brought it to my attention the other day.
Marc:I had a guy come to the show.
Marc:This guy, he's writing a book on shame.
Marc:And I was on stage the other night on Tuesday.
Marc:I've been workshopping a bunch of new stuff and I was talking about my father and about this phone call that I had with my father.
Marc:My father was that guy.
Marc:He was that guy where I'm like, no matter what I do, I'll get on the phone with him and he'll be like, why don't you call Bill Maher and see what he did.
Marc:And the thing that the guy said to me just the other day, he said, that is shaming.
Marc:And in that, if that cycle has been going on your whole life, how are you ever gonna feel like you're good enough and that you're up against that?
Marc:And once they lose their relevance or their power over you, that dialogue's internal.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And what else is what's so sad.
Guest:I hope you will read this if you have some time.
Guest:It's called Why I Fly to Atlanta to Get My Hair Cut.
Guest:And I think that it will resonate for you because it's all about this.
Guest:And coming to terms with the fact that once that kind of critical dialogue is gone, you actually don't know what the dialogue is.
Marc:I'm there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I want you to read that.
Marc:I will, I will.
Guest:I think you'll read that and also read the chapter called Secrets.
Guest:And I think that you will, we don't have to talk about that right now at all.
Guest:But what did you find?
Marc:What did I find with my dad?
Marc:Well, not with the idea that once you identify those internal dialogues,
Marc:Because I'm at that point right now.
Marc:I'm 51.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:And I've been doing some reading that's moved me about psychology and about who I am.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:That you have all these patterns, which is actually how you parented yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:These faulty dialogues of I'm not good enough.
Guest:Yeah, you try to change them, Mark.
Guest:I think a lot of it's hard to change.
Guest:And I think it just has to come with it.
Guest:I think you just have to accept it.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I really do fly to Atlanta to get my hair cut.
Marc:But what is that moment, though, where you're like, without the dialogue, who am I?
Marc:What do I do?
Guest:When you don't have that dialogue with your dad.
Marc:Like, who am I really without these horrible... Yeah, and where's the real connection with my dad?
Guest:Do I need to rely on the criticism to keep us connected and intimate and loving?
Guest:Is there anything else?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's something you just explore and you find answers, and I don't think they're ever going to be 100%.
Guest:Here's what we're not going to get.
Guest:The unconditional love that we wanted.
Guest:Let's accept it and move on.
Guest:Good luck.
Guest:Right?
Guest:We're not going to get that, but that's okay.
Marc:Maybe you can get it on Instagram.
Guest:But I got a lot from my dad and what I gained was insight.
Guest:And when you read that, I don't know if you can connect with me through, you can do it through Twitter.
Guest:Yeah, you can give me your info.
Guest:If you write me or call me, I'd love to know.
Guest:Well, why do you go to Atlanta to get your hair cut?
Guest:What's that?
Guest:Why do you go to Atlanta to get your hair cut?
Guest:Because I'm obsessed with my hair.
Guest:Because my dad could only ever comment on what my hair looked like no matter what I did.
Marc:Was it ever good?
Guest:It was like, why didn't you get that wig?
Guest:Why did you have to wear that hairdo?
Guest:We were in a car and I said to him, he was in his 80s and I was in my 50s.
Guest:He said, so is anything coming up?
Guest:Is anything going to be funnier than I've seen you lately?
Guest:When do you think you'll do anything funny?
Guest:I said, Daddy, I'm in a movie that I really love.
Guest:It's called Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
Guest:I think it's really going to be a cult classic.
Guest:I saw it and I didn't like it, but your hair looked good, he said.
Guest:And I said, you know, it was the first time in my life I ever said to him, you know, that really hurts me, Dad.
Guest:All the years you've seen me and everything, you've never told me that I was good in anything.
Guest:And he turned around, looked out the window, and he started crying.
Guest:And he said, because I don't know about acting, but I know it looks pretty.
Guest:And then we started to talk.
Guest:And then I went to Maine to do some research on him and learned much about him that I didn't know before.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:It's just, you know, what are you going to do?
Guest:You keep looking and searching.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:That's very touching.
Marc:Now you got me all choked up.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:Wonderful.
Marc:And I wish you the best of luck with the book and with Pippin.
Marc:And I think you're amazing.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And you seem to be doing great.
Guest:Right now.
Guest:They won't be when I get back in the car.
Guest:This is what I'll be doing.
Guest:Why did I say that?
Guest:How come I?
Guest:Why did I?
Marc:Can I just tell the people how good your hair looks though?
Guest:My hair doesn't look good.
Guest:Okay, obsessing.
Guest:That's what I'll be obsessing about tomorrow.
Marc:Look what I did.
Marc:Reopened an old wound.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It's been so much fun.
Marc:It has.
Marc:Isn't she amazing?
Marc:She's amazing.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get the app free, then upgrade to the premium, 550-some-odd, 60, I don't know, episodes.
Marc:You can stream them all.
Marc:Get some justcoffee.coop at WTFPod.com.
Marc:You can leave comments on the comment board through Facebook so I know who you are.
Marc:If I choose to drop in and read, I can see your face and know your name when you dump shit or drop garbage into my comment board.
Marc:But on an upbeat note, I'm exhausted and I'm working hard and I've been funny.
Marc:Things are okay and I'm grateful for that.
Thank you.
Guest:guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives!