Episode 564 - Melanie Lynskey
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuckenooks?
Marc:What the fuckericans?
Marc:What the fuckenavians?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:So I assume that if you heard this, you made it.
Marc:You made it through.
Marc:You made it through last night.
Marc:You made it into the new year.
Marc:Welcome to it if you frame things in that way.
Marc:If if you don't frame things day to day and you look at time and chunks of months and years, then welcome.
Marc:Welcome to the first day of your new year.
Marc:I don't know why I'm being abstract.
Marc:Like everybody doesn't think about it that way.
Marc:I just don't.
Marc:I don't have the capacity, folks.
Marc:I don't have the capacity to think back properly.
Marc:I don't know what I've done to my brain.
Marc:I think that I'm starting to think that the computer and my compulsive Twitter activity and just the compulsive interaction I have with the internet and whatnot is annihilating my ability to remember things in sequence.
Marc:In other words, I believe that maybe my brain is becoming some reflection of the internet.
Marc:It's just random images, random phrases and thoughts that kind of interact with my search.
Yeah.
Marc:There's just ideas based on something that I have in my head and everything's moving at its own rate.
Marc:Well, first, before I get into that, as if it matters.
Marc:Today on the show, Melanie Linsky is here.
Marc:She's an amazing actress.
Marc:You might remember her from the movie Up in the Air, where she played George Clooney's sister who was getting married.
Marc:She became...
Marc:you know put sort of on the radar she came on the radar with heavenly creatures which she was amazing in she was a regular on two and a half men she was most recently in happy christmas with anna kendrick she's got this new series coming out with the duplass brothers uh but i've always loved her i don't she's one of those people i would see in a movie and i'd be like who is that person who is that amazing person i i want to know that person and and then i i found her i went and found melanie linsky
Marc:And I said, I want to talk to you, Melanie Linsky.
Marc:And we had a beautiful conversation and it's a great way to start the new year.
Marc:It's a really, it is exactly what this show is.
Marc:It's two people talking, getting to know each other.
Marc:But let's talk about this resolution shit, because I know this is like I know some people maybe didn't have a great year.
Marc:I had a I had a pretty good year in most ways.
Marc:But there's some part of me that's never allowing itself to to to be grateful or to acknowledge that things are OK.
Marc:Or how about to acknowledge that things are are good?
Marc:What am I afraid of?
Marc:This is this weird thing I've been thinking about.
Marc:I think that shitty people know they're shitty and they just keep being shitty because they don't know what else to do.
Marc:That's where they're comfortable.
Marc:It's like that's their go-to thing intuitively.
Marc:They're intuitively...
Marc:Or reactively shitty, but intuitively they know they're being shitty.
Marc:Now I'm not talking about sociopaths and some people are shittier than others obviously, but maybe I'm talking about the type of shitty that I am.
Marc:That I know that I have habits, emotional habits that are abusive and I know that they're diminishing and I know they hurt me as well as other people.
Marc:I know that through years of fucking doing it and feeling shitty about it.
Marc:Here's the trick if you do shitty things or you feel shitty about your behavior is that you really got to question whether or not that feeling you get after doing something shitty or being a shitty person is really comfortable to you or familiar or consistent or whatever the fuck it is.
Marc:It's something you repeat doing and it's for that feeling because the actual act of being shitty and however you're shitty
Marc:is fleeting but however you feel after i mean obviously if you feel nothing afterward you're a sociopath and this doesn't even relate to you because you wouldn't even know what i'm talking about or you're a narcissist and again you wouldn't know what i'm talking about but people who are a little shitty a little emotionally stunted a little frightened inside uh a little emotionally guarded are are prone to uh you know to hurting themselves and others a bit
Marc:I'm paraphrasing something I heard on somebody sent me a speech of Jim Carrey, some graduation speech.
Marc:He said something very interesting.
Marc:I hate to paraphrase it, but he said, be careful of the unloved.
Marc:They will hurt themselves or they will hurt you.
Marc:Something like that.
Marc:The unloved.
Marc:You know, that, you know, what comes from that need that if you were if you weren't loved or you weren't loved properly or you were duped somehow emotionally by your upbringing, what are you out in the world looking to do?
Marc:What are you out looking for?
Marc:Do you have any?
Marc:Have you got a handle on it?
Marc:Are you managing it?
Marc:You know, sometimes that hole inside is just it's gnarly.
Marc:There's a there's fire and and cyclones in there.
Marc:And there's an incredible vacuum, horrible suction to it.
Marc:There's a lot of, you know, lost lovers that are circling, screaming inside the the the the metaphoric hole of self.
Marc:And they you know, they can't get out because you've got them locked in there.
Marc:I mean, I guess my point is for the new year.
Marc:i'm going to continue being less shitty is that okay because i i'm seeing myself i see myself getting older like that's starting to happen i'm 51 and i can actually look in the mirror and be like dude dude you're like you know you're like kind of a middle-aged guy i mean i don't know what you're thinking with those pants but
Marc:I do not think I'm designed to age gracefully.
Marc:There's no indication by my mother or even my father that I will age gracefully unless I'm aware of it.
Marc:Jesus, man, when you don't have kids and you don't have a wife or you don't have those kind of responsibilities, it's easy to perpetuate and remain emotionally immature and quite honestly, a bit selfish.
Marc:But those are the choices I made.
Marc:So I have to, you know, I have to be aware of myself and make sure that I'm empathetic, you know, in situations that demand it and that I'm a good person.
Marc:They say thank you.
Marc:They make sure people are OK around me.
Marc:I just can't make any broad resolutions.
Marc:Why put myself, why put the pressure on myself like that?
Marc:I want to keep doing good work.
Marc:I want to keep doing creative work.
Marc:I want to keep, you know, opening my heart if possible.
Marc:Because you know when you're being shitty.
Marc:I know the people I'm talking to.
Marc:And, you know, I'm still a little shitty.
Marc:I mean, you hear it sometimes on this show.
Marc:I'm still a little shitty.
Marc:But I know it.
Marc:And I know that feeling.
Marc:That's where this theory came from, that shitty people know they're being shitty.
Marc:It's because it's from me.
Marc:So I'll tell you the progress I've made.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Some of you have heard it.
Marc:My mother just said, Mark, I like listening to your podcasts.
Marc:I said, I know, Mom.
Marc:She goes, but I've been listening to them.
Marc:And I know.
Marc:She goes, they keep getting better.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.
Marc:She goes, well, maybe.
Marc:I said, I'm glad, but I don't know what you're talking about.
Marc:She goes, you just sound happier.
Marc:And that makes me feel better.
Marc:It's my mom.
Marc:She doesn't really talk like that, but I'm not really doing her voice justice.
Marc:But...
Marc:Look, I don't know if I'm happier, but I know I'm older and I know I've grown exhausted of the shitty parts of who I am and the ones that I can sort of
Marc:temper or or work against i do that's that's all i can do i know when i'm about to do something shitty when i'm about to hit send or i'm about to blurt some negative fucking abusive shit out or i'm about to like you know shit on myself i know when i'm about to do all that stuff and sometimes i literally out loud have to say dude what what is happening what's happening what's happening what are you doing
Marc:What are you about to do?
Marc:What the fuck are you thinking, stupid?
Marc:See, that's a little judgmental, but sometimes self-talk has to be a little harsh.
Marc:What the fuck are you thinking, stupid?
Marc:Yeah, try that one.
Marc:That's a good one.
Marc:When you're about to do something shitty.
Marc:What the fuck are you thinking, stupid?
Marc:That'll probably work for a while.
Marc:All I know is that
Marc:I'm happy to be alive.
Marc:I'm grateful for my life and what's happened in it.
Marc:Grateful that you like this show.
Marc:I like what I'm doing.
Marc:I don't always like me.
Marc:I don't know how I'm going to age gracefully.
Marc:I'm completely neurotic about certain things.
Marc:I'm trying to deal with those things.
Marc:I'm trying to be in a relationship that's different than my other ones.
Marc:It's very hard, man.
Marc:It's hard not to be in crazy time.
Marc:All right, so now Melanie Linsky and I are going to talk.
Marc:Melanie Linsky.
Marc:Okay, let's talk to her.
Marc:I'm trying to watch my figure, Melanie.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:What are you doing to me?
Marc:Do you know the struggle I deal with?
Guest:You don't need to worry about anything.
Marc:That's all I needed to go through with the cookie.
Marc:But what about after you leave?
Marc:Then where am I at?
Marc:Just feeling cookie shame.
Marc:Oh my God, it's like all butter.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A lot of butter.
Guest:It's the worst thing for you in the world, but it's so delicious.
Marc:How can I not eat this?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm eating it.
Guest:You're supposed to eat it.
Guest:That's why I brought it.
Marc:You don't feel any struggle at all with that cookie right now?
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to eat from this cookie.
Marc:But are you fighting it?
Marc:No.
Marc:No?
Marc:You're like, I'm just going to enjoy a cookie.
Marc:And you are able to do that.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:God, that makes you a different person than me.
Guest:I mean, there's a little bit of a, I don't know.
Guest:I struggled for a very long time about feeling awful about everything I ate.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Once I kind of gave that up, I was like, oh, God.
Marc:How'd you give that up?
Marc:Did you just sort of like go, fuck it?
Marc:Or was there a process?
Guest:There was a process.
Marc:Oh, really?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are we just having a conversation or is this... Have we started?
Marc:Of course we started.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:How do you think this works?
Guest:I haven't even put my lip balm on.
Marc:Oh, well, get on it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:You're the only, the second New Zealander I've had.
Guest:Oh, you had Rhys Darby.
Guest:I heard that one.
Marc:Was it all familiar to you?
Guest:It was really nice to hear somebody talking about... Your home?
Guest:My home.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I need to talk about it because I've never been there.
Guest:Oh, you should go there.
Guest:You've been to Australia, though.
Marc:Yeah, I have.
Marc:I've been to Australia.
Marc:But, you know, I'm not sounding disappointed, but like Australia, you only go to those couple of cities.
Marc:I did anyways.
Marc:I'm sure there's plenty of other places to go.
Guest:I've only been to two of them.
Marc:They don't sell it too hard.
Marc:It's not like, I'd like to go inside the country and be like, no, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, it's big.
Marc:Yeah, it's big and it's dry.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:New Zealand seems lush.
Guest:It's very lush.
Guest:They're very different places.
Marc:So you grew up there the whole time.
Marc:Melanie Linsky.
Marc:How'd you get that name?
Marc:What kind of name is that?
Guest:It's Irish.
Marc:How is that Irish?
Guest:it's just irish it is somebody told me at some point that the lynches had some kind of family feud and then some of them split off and the lynches yeah is that all you know about them and the family feud that's all i know and i heard that from jane lynch yeah so you're getting historical information from jane lynch yeah
Marc:it's weird because i just associate s-k-e-y or s-k-y or s-k-i with polish russian jew melanie linsky to me it's like this she can't be jewish from new zealand that doesn't exist there i knew one jewish family growing up one where did where did they run from i was obsessed i wanted to be jewish so badly what was it about i don't
Guest:We lived in England for a year when I was six and there were a lot of Jewish kids in my school and there was something about it that spoke to my heart in a very particular way.
Guest:And I didn't really have an understanding of what it was, but I was like, oh, this feels right to me.
Guest:And I also, when I was little, I was always obsessed with
Guest:being in the wrong family.
Guest:I always thought that, like I would tell my little brother that we were adopted and stuff.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And our real parents were coming.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:They would be here eventually and take us back to our rightful home?
Guest:Yeah, I was like, they're going to come one day.
Marc:And they're Jewish.
Guest:Yeah, I got convinced that they were Jewish.
Guest:And then for a time, I thought they were gypsies, maybe.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Of course, gypsies are good.
Marc:You just felt comfortable amongst the Jews?
Marc:Did you go to that girl's house or something?
Marc:Was it mysterious?
Guest:Well, my friend in New Zealand who was Jewish, I was at her house every weekend.
Guest:But when I was really little, when I first discovered it,
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:It just made sense to me.
Guest:I was like, oh, these feel like my people.
Guest:I would go to their homes, and I was like, yeah.
Marc:This is right.
Marc:And now you're in L.A., so you've arrived.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:You're here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Will you pull the mic in a little bit to your face?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:My voice is very quiet.
Marc:Why is that?
Marc:You're an actress.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Project.
Marc:Pretend like you're doing an animated character.
Marc:Talk into the mic.
Guest:Did you know that we have met each other before?
Marc:Once.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:At the Tim?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you remember that?
Marc:I kind of remember.
Marc:I was probably too startled.
Guest:Too startled?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have you in a high place.
Guest:Oh, I was too startled then too.
Guest:We were sitting in a green room by ourselves and I felt very, very shy.
Guest:And I was like, I'm not going to say anything.
Marc:Right, and we were there, and I was like, oh, my God, that's a woman from the movies.
Marc:And she's much better than me.
Guest:That's not... Because I kind of looked at you at one point, and you said, what, am I eating too loudly?
Guest:Because you're eating this salad.
Guest:And I do, in fact, have a sensitivity to people eating too loudly, but you weren't at all.
Marc:Really?
Guest:No, and I just was sort of like, oh, no.
No.
Guest:And then I didn't know what I was going to say.
Guest:I'm a fan of yours, but I didn't say anything.
Marc:Well, you didn't say anything?
Marc:So that made me awkward, and I just assumed, well, she's apparently... I'm beneath talking to, and you're sitting there... I was too shy.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I believe you.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Well, I mean, like, I think that, you know, you... I'm probably not the only one.
Marc:That at some point, you plowed yourself into my unconscious...
Marc:With that first movie with Heavenly Creatures, right?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And you stayed there.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:You burrowed in.
Marc:You made a home there.
Marc:Sounds terrifying.
Marc:And for the rest of my life, I'm like, that's a woman from that movie.
Marc:And there she is grown up being funny.
Guest:Aw.
Marc:And there she is speaking like an American person.
Marc:That was my experience.
Guest:Aw.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:What?
Guest:It's so nice to know that I was in your unconscious this whole time.
Marc:Yeah, are you kidding me?
Marc:I'd rather you be in every movie.
Marc:That's so nice.
Marc:That's so nice.
Marc:Why can't you just be in every movie?
Marc:Is there a call we can make?
Marc:You should be.
Guest:I wish I was in every movie.
Guest:I feel like I don't work that often, but...
Marc:Why?
Marc:What's that about?
Guest:Why do I feel like that?
Marc:No, why aren't you?
Marc:Do we need to call your agent?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I don't get asked to do a lot of sort of bigger parts, and she's kind of on a thing right now where she doesn't want me to do little tiny things anymore.
Marc:How'd she sell you on that?
Marc:Oh, little tiny things.
Guest:Yeah, she was like, oh, people always say, oh, she's so good in every little part that she does.
Guest:She's like, I want to stop hearing that.
Marc:She wants you to do a big one?
No.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:Bigger parts at least.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So how old were you when you did that movie, Heavenly Creatures?
Marc:Seriously.
Guest:I had my 16th birthday on the set.
Guest:I turned 16 making it.
Marc:And that was like a... So you were still in high school or the New Zealand equivalent of high school?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Peter Jackson was a local filmmaker at that time?
Guest:He was.
Guest:He was a local filmmaker who'd made a lot of disturbing horror movies.
Marc:In New Zealand?
Guest:In New Zealand.
Marc:And you knew them?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really loved movies, so I knew his movies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He did a movie called Brain Dead, which I guess is called Dead Alive here.
Guest:He did a movie called Meet the Feebles, which is just like puppets doing disgusting things.
Guest:And this was a very famous murder case in New Zealand.
Guest:And I heard he was going to make a movie about it and I thought, oh no, that sounds awful.
Guest:But then I read the script and it was so delicate and beautiful and...
Guest:I mean, I auditioned for it before I knew anything about it.
Marc:Were you acting regularly at that time, or was it like, what was your life like?
Guest:I come from a very small sort of provincial town.
Guest:It's way out on the coast, and nobody really is a professional actor where I come from.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I was doing school plays, and I would write plays and put them on at school, and I would do local theater, and I did improv, comedy, theater, sports, and stuff like that.
Guest:In high school?
Guest:In high school, yeah.
Marc:And how small of a town?
Marc:Everyone knew each other small?
Guest:Everyone knew each other, pretty much.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the province is quite big because there is a lot of farmers.
Guest:So the whole province is like 40,000 people.
Marc:What kind?
Marc:Sheep?
Marc:Sheep, yeah.
Marc:A lot of sheep.
Guest:A lot of sheep, yeah.
Marc:I can get New Zealand lamb at Trader Joe's.
Guest:Frozen.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I don't eat lamb.
Guest:Do you not eat meat?
Guest:I don't eat meat.
Marc:Always?
Guest:Since I was teen.
Marc:Ten?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You have no problem with large cookies filled with butter.
Guest:This makes me look terrible.
Guest:I shouldn't have brought this cookie.
Marc:I just ate my entire cookie.
Marc:Not only did you bring it.
Guest:Oh, I'm so impressed.
Marc:But you're going to eat it all.
Guest:Well, I'm going to eat some of it.
Marc:Probably not all in one.
Marc:What kind of person can just not eat it all at once?
Guest:Some other sugar.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you stopped eating meat because of what?
Marc:An experience with a thing?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Now you're eating.
Marc:Don't worry about it.
Guest:I'm very deathly afraid of mouth noises.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you have a bad experience?
Marc:Wait.
Marc:Because my salad didn't bother you though.
Marc:That was a good sign that I missed.
Guest:I didn't take it.
Guest:You're not a bad eater.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:No.
Marc:Well, I've seen you eat that one salad.
Marc:I must have been inhaling it.
Marc:I don't eat anything slowly.
Marc:I generally chew with my mouth open sometimes because I'm so consumed with eating.
Guest:Well, I didn't notice.
Marc:I'm a passionate eater.
Marc:Maybe my passion for eating is what transcended that moment for both of us.
Guest:If somebody's eating badly, I cannot think straight.
Guest:I can't concentrate.
Guest:Even if somebody is like three tables away from me in a restaurant and I can hear their mouth noises, I can't hold a conversation.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's a real problem.
Guest:It's called a misophonia.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:It's a condition, yeah.
Marc:Have you sought help?
Guest:I'm thinking about it.
Guest:I've thought about getting hypnotized.
Marc:To not be affected by...
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just like that?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What about people who make noise like... It's the worst.
Guest:I can't do it.
Guest:I can't stand it.
Guest:And, you know, actually, it's very hard for me to listen to podcasts because people's horrible mouth noises.
Marc:I do that sometimes.
Guest:You don't, though.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You really don't.
Marc:I have some speech impediments.
Guest:Do you?
Marc:I have a rolling L. I don't do it for my...
Marc:like l like la la la i like la la la so it's really w because i don't use my tongue i use my throat so it's i can't really form an l so now you'll know that i have a slight lisp uh that that people don't notice because i guess it's just they're so caught up with what i'm saying i think so i haven't noticed either of those oh i just fucked it up i ruined the whole thing i might as well just be like please don't i'll leave
Marc:All right, so don't leave.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So why did you stop eating meat at 10?
Guest:Oh, they showed us a documentary at school.
Guest:They were doing a thing about New Zealand industries and they were like, oh, here's our lamb industry and here's how that works.
Guest:And they took a little lamb and put him through the whole process and they were like, here's how he gets on your plate.
Guest:And it was horrifying to me.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I couldn't.
Guest:And I said, I'm never eating meat again.
Guest:And then I never did.
Marc:It was like they showed the slaughter and the sort of... Yeah.
Guest:It was really intense.
Guest:And then the next day we were supposed to go to a slaughterhouse and we were 10 years old.
Marc:And you didn't go?
Guest:No.
Marc:Couldn't handle it?
Guest:No.
Marc:You went home devastated?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you yelled at your parents crying?
Guest:How can we... Yeah, and they were like, well, what are you going to eat?
Guest:And I said, I don't know.
Guest:I'll figure it out because all I ate was meat.
Guest:All anyone eats is meat.
Marc:What did your folks do in this town?
Guest:Um, my dad is an orthopedic surgeon.
Marc:Get the fuck out of here.
Guest:What?
Marc:My dad's an orthopedic surgeon.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:How come I didn't know that?
Marc:I don't, we don't, the way I talk about him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't talk about him a lot and it's usually around mental issues, but yeah, he was an orthopedic surgeon.
Marc:is he a highly emotional person very in touch with his feelings no no i'm joking he was a very detached man uh that was volatile and moody and not home a lot and left at weird hours for things that you know were very important yeah more important than his family up got a call there's a guy with pieces broken
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's very familiar to me.
Marc:It is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was on call.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Constantly.
Marc:And, like, you'd be out at restaurants.
Marc:Remember Pagers?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Remember that shit?
Marc:You'd just sit down and you're wondering, like, is dad going to make it through dinner?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then, like, beep, beep, beep, Dr. Marin.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then he'd go away and he'd be like, gotta go.
Marc:Like, how is it so fucking important?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it always felt very important to me.
Guest:I was like, well, that's the most important thing.
Marc:Yeah, saving lives.
Marc:They don't do that, though, orthopedics.
Marc:I don't know when I realized that.
Marc:It's like, I'm not saving lives.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They could put the guy together and he could wait.
Guest:Yeah, but sometimes they have to do emergency surgeries after car accidents and stuff like that.
Marc:I actually saw a movie with my father that was profoundly disturbing.
Guest:What was it?
Marc:It actually, like, you know how you can't eat meat after you saw that movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't like my father anymore.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:No, listen.
Marc:He wanted to do research on a new procedure of some kind.
Marc:So he had a screening of this, an instructional film on this procedure.
Marc:And he asked me to go with him, or he took me with him for some reason.
Guest:How old were you?
Marc:I must have been like 10, 11.
Marc:I was old enough to sort of be like the kid that my dad wanted to bring.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I must have been functioning and have a personality and things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I go see this thing and it's literally one of these things.
Marc:It was a hip surgery.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And there were hammers involved and saws.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's very violent.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And I was like, what?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It just was devastating to me, and it was mind-blowing.
Marc:That's what my dad was doing.
Marc:They're using power tools and equipment and hammers and saws, screwdrivers, and that's what they're doing to people.
Marc:It's helpful.
Marc:It's a skill, but it doesn't seem very nuanced.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People have an imagining, I think, of like surgery as being this sort of delicate thing with like scalpels.
Guest:And I know some of it is, but there is a lot of like just fucking smashing things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So your dad was a doctor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he was, let me just take a shot.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Slightly grandiose, self-involved.
Guest:He's... My dad is a very shy... Oh.
Guest:He's not the most emotional man of all time.
Guest:My mother is a very big personality.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:So it's... He can't, you know... Mm-hmm.
Guest:Can't get a word in?
Guest:She's kind of the one... She's the... Let's go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:We're doing this.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Sit down.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Melanie?
Guest:He's, you know, there's a lot of kind of... She's calmed down a lot in recent years, but there's a lot of kind of managing, or there was when I was a child.
Guest:So he's always very concerned about, like, everybody else, what's everyone else doing, or that, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a little codependent.
Guest:Oh, I know that word.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Yeah.
Marc:Was there some alcohol involved anywhere?
Marc:No.
Guest:I mean, I guess like family stuff.
Guest:It's weird to talk about people who don't have a forum to talk about themselves.
Marc:You don't want to throw anybody under the bus.
Marc:Is that what you're saying?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As a good codependent, you want whoever you're talking about to be here and tell you you're wrong and for you to apologize.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:Tell me I'm crazy and I made it all up and they don't have any memory of that.
Guest:So how's that a reality?
Marc:We did the best we could.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what did your mom?
Guest:Well, my parents were very young also when they had me.
Guest:My dad was still a student.
Marc:Mine too.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Are you the oldest?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:How many kids are in your family?
Guest:Two.
Guest:Oh, there's five of us.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:My mom was 22 when she had me.
Guest:So was my mother.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:That's so weird.
Marc:I think my dad was like 25.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's exactly the same.
Marc:When's your birthday?
Guest:May 16th.
Marc:Okay, thank God.
Marc:It's going to get too fucking weird.
Guest:When's your birthday?
Marc:September.
Marc:September 27th.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:So you're the oldest of five.
Marc:Your mom's a force.
Guest:She is a force, yeah.
Marc:What did she do?
Guest:She was a nurse when she met my dad, and then she started having babies.
Marc:My mom wasn't a nurse, but there were nurses involved later.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Are they still married?
Guest:They're still married.
Marc:Do people stay married in New Zealand?
Guest:Not always.
Guest:My parents have had a very intense up and down, like a very interesting relationship.
Guest:It's kind of a miracle that they're still married, but they're still married.
Guest:And they're still there?
Guest:They're still in New Zealand.
Marc:Is he still practicing?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what's the sibling breakdown?
Guest:I have three brothers and one sister.
Marc:All younger?
Guest:They're all younger than me, yeah.
Marc:Are any of them here?
Guest:No, I wish.
Guest:I just brought them all over for a visit.
Guest:This is the first time they've ever all been here at the same time.
Marc:All four of them?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How old's the youngest one?
Guest:The youngest one is 20.
Guest:She just turned 23, my little sister.
Marc:Oh, so little.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's so little.
Guest:She's so cute.
Marc:And did your parents come too?
Guest:No.
Marc:So you had the four sibs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just the four siblings, yeah.
Marc:And they all look up to you and you're like the... I'm kind of... I mean...
Guest:Because of, you know, my parents, I had a lot of responsibility, I guess.
Guest:So I'm kind of like a parental figure for them.
Marc:What's the age difference between you and the next one?
Guest:Just two years.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:But still, you were the one, the leader of the pack?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I got better at it.
Marc:Bitter or better?
Guest:Better.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I got better.
Guest:And, yeah, and then my brother is, another brother is seven years younger than me, another one's 11 years, and my sister is 14 years younger than me.
Marc:And they're all good?
Guest:They're all amazing.
Marc:None of them are in show business?
Guest:They're great.
Guest:No.
Guest:My sister might be a producer.
Guest:That's kind of her dream.
Guest:To produce?
Guest:It's her weird specific dream.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It is a weird specific dream.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've never really heard anyone be like, I want to be a... Well, maybe she can do it then.
Guest:She's very good at it.
Guest:She's produced some short films and she's amazing.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so clearly we're sort of circling the idea that your mom's a little nutty, your dad's a little quiet, and it was very exciting at home.
Guest:Yes, it was very exciting.
Marc:It was so exciting that you had to parent your siblings a bit.
Guest:A little bit, yeah.
Guest:A little bit.
Marc:Am I making you uncomfortable?
Guest:I already went to therapy today.
Marc:God damn it!
Guest:why is that bad i shouldn't have what'd you get done there i got a lot done today great yeah god damn it how are we gonna have a conversation and i had group therapy yesterday so i'm all good i'm all good yes i do i don't think you are good oh god i do go to group therapy i really love it really have you ever done that yes once oh you didn't like it
Marc:I did it when I was in high school.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Briefly, or junior high.
Guest:That would be hard.
Marc:Yeah, because everyone's fucked up and no one knows what they're going to be or who they are or what's going on.
Guest:And you feel so private at that time.
Marc:You don't want to... Yeah, there's that.
Marc:But there's also, like, there's people that, like, have minor problems and there's always, you know, a couple of suicidal, you know, real problems.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it just... It was okay.
Marc:But then I went, as my second marriage crumbled...
Marc:I, in a panic, went to an anger management type of situation where they had a group.
Marc:I did an intensified three-day anger workshop thing.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And there were groups in that.
Marc:And it was ridiculous.
Marc:I felt like I was on the first Bob Newhart show.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Which was like, it was just like, are you kidding me?
Marc:Am I one of these people?
Marc:Why am I here?
Marc:And then it became like, so the anger was like very active within the group.
Marc:It was like, fuck this.
Marc:These people are losers.
Marc:I don't have to be, you know.
Marc:And that was interesting.
Marc:I've not done a group in a long time.
Marc:I'm surprised and excited about this idea.
Marc:So you're in group and how does that work?
Marc:I kind of know how it works, but you all sit and it's someone's turn and people just kind of give feedback.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you just kind of, it's not really anyone specific to, and it's sort of up to you to bring something up if you have something to talk about.
Guest:None of us are people who are very good at taking time for ourselves or taking up a lot of space, so that's part of the work is being able to be like, I have something I want to talk about, which has been the hardest thing for me.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To stand up for yourself?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah and say like i've you know i i feel like i deserve to be the one to use up some of the group time you know it's been really hard i apologize to my therapist sometimes and she's like you're paying me it's fine oh my god i'm sorry can i talk yeah i'm sorry i feel like i'm talking so much and she's like oh you're in therapy oh my god yeah it's crazy it's real crazy why do you why are you like that who stopped you from talking
Guest:No, I mean, maybe, I mean, I don't do so much therapy.
Guest:I can't pretend like I don't know.
Guest:I think, you know, when you grow up with parents who have a lot of other stuff going on, it's hard to sort of feel like you should be taking up space.
Guest:Or, you know, if you have a problem, you deserve to go to them and talk about it.
Guest:You know, they were very busy people and they had a...
Marc:Busy, is that code for selfish?
Guest:No, I mean, my dad worked really hard, and my mom had so many children.
Guest:I was always so aware of how much they had going on, so I always felt like it was my job to just kind of be good and just not.
Marc:Did you feel good, though?
Guest:No, not really.
Marc:See, it's weird.
Marc:And I'm sorry if I'm getting too personal, but you listen to this show.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I knew it.
Marc:We're going to get back to Peter Jackson.
Marc:And I'm not trying to crack a nut here.
Marc:I'm not a therapist, but I understand what you're saying.
Marc:Because I started reading this book recently.
Guest:What is it?
Marc:It's called The Fantasy Bond.
Marc:And it's about the structure of human defenses.
Marc:Oh, I'm so excited.
Marc:Well, it was one of these things because I have two sides.
Marc:I'm very charismatic and a very aggressive personality, but innately, I'm incredibly codependent with people and in relationships.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So much so that like I, you know, I surrender so much to myself that once I can't take it anymore, then I lash out.
Marc:So it's almost part of my cycle where it's sort of like you just exhaust yourself trying to make things good and taking responsibility for other people's feelings.
Marc:And eventually you're just going to be like, fuck you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if you do that.
Guest:I think I did.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I'm a lot better at it now, but I did spend many, many years never getting angry.
Guest:And never talking about things that bothered me.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:What did you do with it?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I just, like, got disgusted at myself.
Guest:I took it out on myself.
Guest:I was miserable, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just never...
Guest:bringing it to the other person's attention or I would get into a relationship and just sort of present some version of myself and be in like the greatest like happiest place for two months or three months and then be like see ya like as soon as I felt like I was getting close or becoming vulnerable or at risk of getting attached or something like that I would just be like gotta go yeah nice to meet you heartbreaker huh
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:But, I mean, it was such a defensive thing that I was doing.
Marc:But you didn't realize that at the time?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I understood that I was in a panic every time that I left somebody.
Guest:I understood there was something wrong with me, but I didn't know what was going on.
Guest:But I wasn't just like, I'm going to break hearts.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:That was wrong of me to say and was insensitive, and I apologize.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:No, it wasn't fine.
Guest:It was fine.
Guest:It was fine.
Marc:um okay so this book oh yeah boy tell me the concept is that when you're young if your parents were emotionally neglectful or abusive which are sometimes the same thing whatever the case if your parents you know did not have the emotional capacity to take care of you properly you know and that they had their either their own agendas or their own problems
Marc:yet they were presenting themselves as good parents.
Marc:Like, you know, I love all of you, I love you, I'm worried about you, whatever.
Marc:But the underlying emotional reality of who they were was either detached or jealous or whatever their personal trip is.
Marc:You're gonna absorb that as a child, okay?
Marc:And as a child, you need to believe your parents are good because they're your parents.
Marc:and okay so that's in place like they're good so but the emotional cues you're getting don't match that yeah so you feel awkward and kind of shitty and you know self-hating or uncomfortable or you know whatever those feelings are and the only thing you can do at that young age because your parents are good is blame yourself
Marc:So, what happens is as you get older, the way you self-parent is by essentially maintaining those negative thoughts about yourself because that's where you live and that is actually honoring what your parents really might have felt about you and you get into relationships that are based on this fantasy
Marc:And you never get out of that loop that disables you from being intimate.
Marc:Because if you were to actually get intimate or actually to get close to somebody, it would threaten your entire structure of self.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:I can't handle it.
Guest:It's too much.
Guest:It's too much.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:How did you find that book?
Marc:I got this therapist and he dropped this idea, like the fantasy bond thing.
Marc:And I'm like, whoa, whoa, what was that?
Marc:Fantasy bond?
Marc:He's like, yeah, this guy, Robert, I think his name's Robert Firestone, wrote this book called The Fantasy Bond back in the 80s or whatever.
Marc:And he kind of gave me a vague sense of it without really describing it.
Marc:And I'm like, is that book available?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's like, I don't know.
Marc:I imagine so.
Marc:And it's not a popular book.
Marc:It's a clinical book.
Marc:It's, you know, it's for clinicians and it's based on research.
Marc:And I went and looked it up and I found it and they sort of print it to order kind of thing.
Marc:You know, it's not like in stock ish.
Marc:So I got the book and I started reading and I'm like, no fucking way.
Marc:no way because you know i'm a recovery guy you know i know you know i know alan i know a and shit but there's a certain point with that stuff and even with therapy where you're like um well okay okay i understand i have this problem and there's a practical way to deal with this problem but and i can do that cognitively and i can and i can make different choices in my life but what about this core shit i mean you know where's the explanation for it
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so I get this book and I'm like, oh, my God, I found the explanation.
Marc:And it's crazy.
Marc:Anyways, so Peter Jackson.
Guest:I'm going to get that book.
Guest:I know, it was a little digression.
Marc:At a certain point in your life, I don't know where you're at or what your process is.
Marc:I'm not even sure how old you are.
Marc:Do you have children?
Guest:37, no.
Marc:No children?
Marc:Not married?
Guest:No.
Marc:You were?
Guest:I was.
Marc:No more?
Guest:No more.
Marc:How many times have you been married?
Guest:Just once.
Guest:Oh, I guess.
Marc:I was married twice.
Marc:I have no children.
Marc:Just no shame.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:There's no shame in it.
Marc:You just keep trying.
Marc:Get back up on the horse.
Guest:Just keep trying to get married again?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:What else?
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:That's true.
Marc:You're just going to commit to, you know, I don't want to bother anybody and sit at home for their fucking life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right, Melanie.
Marc:No.
Marc:No, but like I'm at this point now, and I don't know if you're there, where you can sort of see...
Marc:You know, that your feelings about yourself are not, they don't match your life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, you know, it's sort of like, well, just over there, I can be okay with myself.
Marc:It's just right there.
Marc:I can see it.
Guest:Yes, I have recently arrived there.
Marc:It's wild, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How do we get there?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:How do you get to the point where you actually are okay with yourself?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I get so frustrated with myself.
Marc:Like, because of that or just in general?
Guest:Because I can see it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I can see, like, my brain, like, rationally, I can say to myself, you're not a horrible person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You have a lot of people who care about you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're good to people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you are doing the job that you have always wanted to do.
Guest:Everything's great.
Guest:But I still feel awful so much of the time.
Marc:Just awful about myself.
Marc:How does that manifest itself?
Marc:Awful.
Guest:I do a lot of comparing myself to other people and being like, oh, she's so thin or she's so beautiful or she's so talented.
Guest:I just get crazy with it.
Guest:And not in a jealous way where I'm mad at the other people for having some, but I'm just sort of like, oh, I should never be that.
Marc:You just chip away at yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You disappear yourself.
Guest:Yeah, I'd disappear myself, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and it's just such a habit.
Marc:I know, and you know it's a habit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I feel that too.
Marc:I've had a little success with that one.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:How, what did you do?
Marc:Well, eventually, I think I have enough sense of self now where I'm like, well, I don't do what that person does, and they don't do what I do, and I'm me, and I have this specific kind of thing that I do, so why am I even doing that?
Guest:Yeah, I watched the VMAs the other night and I was comparing myself to Beyonce.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I was watching Beyonce and I was like, oh, well, I can't do that.
Guest:And I was like, hang on a second.
Guest:That's fucking Beyonce.
Guest:There's no other Beyonce.
Guest:That is not anywhere near to who I am, who I aspire to be.
Guest:Who you even could be.
Guest:Any part of my job description.
Guest:And I'm sitting there just being like, well, like feeling shitty about myself.
Guest:And I'm like, what is going on?
Marc:You were beating yourself up with a Beyonce bat.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you that that's that's the pattern.
Guest:It's so bizarre, though.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So now we have a common ground.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:We are self erasers.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:in the face of almost anybody who does anything.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That's a good way to put it.
Guest:It sounds so tragic, but yep, basically.
Marc:Yet, you are unique unto yourself as a performer and as an actress and as a being in your field.
Marc:No one's like you.
Guest:Well, no one is like you.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It's the same for you.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:No, we're building your self-esteem today.
Guest:Okay, go ahead.
Marc:And now it starts to sort of make sense to me.
Marc:So you're 16, you're doing improv, you're acting in the school plays, you're, I imagine, finding like the outlet of performing to be incredibly relieving.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And from when, I mean, I started acting when I was six years old and I remember it so clearly.
Marc:What happened?
Guest:I just, I got cast in a play in my school and I had like a tiny little part.
Guest:Um, and there was just something about being on the stage.
Guest:I was so painfully shy, um,
Guest:And I found myself just filled with confidence and I had lines to say and I spoke them and I was like, oh, here's somebody's telling me what I can say.
Guest:And I just stood out there and I felt great.
Guest:And it was the first time in my life that I've felt sort of competitive because I auditioned to play Mary and I didn't get it.
Guest:And I was like, why didn't I get that?
Guest:And I just, there's something, I just loved it.
Guest:And then I did every play that I could do.
Guest:I went to church with my grandparents so I could be in the plays at church.
Marc:You didn't want to have anything to do with church?
Guest:No.
Guest:I was like, God, I love doing the plays, but I feel so guilty.
Guest:And my mother was like, that's why you don't go to church.
Guest:It was a Baptist church, so there was a lot of guilt.
Marc:Baptist.
Marc:Hardcore.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So in that first time, before you took the stage, the shyness and the fear and the nervousness, so something just left you?
Marc:It left me.
Guest:Yeah, I felt...
Marc:Once you got on stage or right before or what?
Guest:Once I was there.
Guest:Right before I was terrified and I didn't even know if I could walk out.
Guest:And then once I was there, there was like an adrenaline and I just felt, I felt like a different person.
Guest:And then I got addicted to that feeling.
Marc:The adrenaline.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And feeling like a different, feeling not like myself.
Marc:You're a big fan of Peter Jackson.
Marc:You like his horror movies.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And how does he find you?
Guest:They had a couple of people on a short list, like professional actresses, and he just had a feeling that there was somebody else.
Guest:And so his wife drove around high schools in New Zealand and did some auditions.
Guest:And they came to my high school and all the teachers were like, oh, she's an actress.
Guest:You should look at her.
Guest:So I did a little audition, like a little improvised audition.
Marc:And that was it.
Guest:Well, I did another audition with Peter.
Guest:They flew me to where they were filming and I did like a proper audition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he showed me Kate Winslet's audition tape.
Guest:How'd that go?
Guest:So mean.
Guest:He was like, this is how good you have to be, by the way.
Guest:She's a professional actress.
Guest:She's been working for five years in England.
Guest:He said that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is how good you have to be here.
Guest:Watch your tape.
Guest:And I mean, it's fucking Kate Winslet.
Guest:She's amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I could not have been more intimidated.
Yeah.
Marc:I can't believe you said that to you.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Can you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You can.
Guest:I can, yeah.
Guest:Once I got to know him, I was like, oh, that seems right.
Guest:He just was like, this is the level.
Guest:You two are going to be in this movie together, and that's where she is.
Marc:So you know.
Marc:He was almost saying, like, can you handle this?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you said...
Guest:I said, I'll try.
Guest:Come on, you did not.
Guest:I don't know what I said.
Guest:I was like, okay, she's really good.
Marc:Do you remember what it was like when you first met her?
Guest:Oh, my God, yeah.
Guest:I went to the airport to meet her.
Guest:They had you pick her up at the airport?
Guest:Yeah, Peter and I, I think, picked her up.
Marc:Oh, it wasn't like, Melanie, could you go get Kate?
Guest:No, I couldn't drive.
Guest:I didn't learn to drive until I was 24.
Marc:If you want to be in this movie...
Marc:you'll learn how to drive kate winslet um no i didn't have to drive kate winslet but i went to the airport and she was so like glamorous and beautiful it was crazy so so the actual says peter jackson's evil genius so some of the actual dynamic that was in the film he wanted to happen
Guest:Oh, it was encouraged.
Guest:Completely encouraged, yeah.
Marc:He just ripped the fragile heart out of you.
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Guest:I mean, but I wanted it to be ripped out of me.
Guest:I wanted to really go there.
Guest:It was really an amazing experience.
Marc:What'd you learn about yourself?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:At that time.
Guest:Well, as an actor, I learned how to go to kind of an awful place and come back again.
Guest:Because I'd had a few experiences when I was doing plays where it would connect with me emotionally and connect with something horrible that I was going through.
Guest:But then I didn't know how to come back.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I would just be sort of like fucked up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he was very good at like letting us go there and bringing us back again.
Marc:How did you do that?
Guest:Just really took care of us afterwards and hugged us and talked to us and was like, go make something nice for dinner.
Guest:It was just very sweet and loving.
Guest:So I realized I had a lot of control over my emotions.
Guest:I was scared of a lot of emotion before that because I felt like I was repressing so much that I was scared of letting it out in case it just never stopped.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But it stops.
Marc:Well, yeah, well, I mean, you seem sort of like that seems to be your innate skill.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:To stop emotion.
Guest:To stop emotion.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You got that aced.
Guest:I'm great.
Guest:I'm very, very good at that.
Marc:I guess the real lucky thing was that you're also able to open up that, if the role is correct, if you can have someone else's...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're completely capable of tearing yourself open.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I can be emotional in my own life.
Guest:It was harder for me to be angry.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or sort of have any kind of healthy entitlement or anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Still?
Yeah.
Marc:it's still hard but i can do it so after that film because it was i can't even remember where i saw it because it wasn't a huge film no but i know i saw it and i know it was sort of like what the fuck is this yeah it was at like art house movie theaters they were nominated for an oscar for the screenplay uh-huh and i remember there's a lot of interesting effects in a way wasn't there yeah there was like a lot of early cgi stuff yeah yeah like kind of like like like trippy shit mm-hmm
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then... So what happened?
Marc:Did you finish high school?
Guest:I finished high school.
Marc:Was that a big... Was it a successful film in New Zealand?
Guest:It was, but people in New Zealand are not...
Guest:Very impressed by that.
Guest:They kind of want to let you know that it's not that great.
Marc:I didn't realize it was based on a very notorious... Yeah.
Marc:And I imagine that kind of poked at the cultural wound somehow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think that it did.
Guest:And I'm also like naked in the movie and stuff like that, you know.
Guest:So it was like there's some weird stuff to go back to high school.
Guest:And it's not like I was like a movie star.
Guest:I was playing like a dumpy little murderer who makes out with another girl.
Guest:Everyone was like, that was weird.
Marc:So what was the trajectory?
Marc:So you did Heavenly Creatures.
Marc:You finished high school.
Marc:And you said, Mom, Dad, I'm going to Los Angeles.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I got an agent and she kept saying, oh, you should come over.
Guest:And I felt kind of ridiculous to try to do anything.
Marc:All right, we've established that.
Marc:You've established that, yeah.
Marc:So she had to convince you?
Guest:Yeah, she had to convince me.
Guest:I started making audition tapes from New Zealand and sending them.
Guest:I made a tape for The Crucible.
Marc:That was Winona Ryder?
Guest:The Winona Ryder one, but a different part.
Guest:And then I flew over to audition with Daniel Day-Lewis.
Guest:And I guess that was when I sort of thought, oh, if they feel like I'm okay to be in a room with Daniel Day-Lewis.
Marc:How was that for you?
Guest:Oh, crazy.
Guest:So great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was really nice and just, you know, it's fucking Daniel Day-Lewis.
Guest:It was incredible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's something, huh?
Guest:Yeah, he's amazing.
Marc:And so you didn't get that part, but it did instill you with a certain confidence.
Guest:Yeah, I just felt a little better and I did some more auditions.
Guest:It took a while.
Marc:I love that I can't tell the difference between you saying better and bitter.
Marc:Nobody can.
Guest:It's a real problem.
Marc:But I love that about New Zealand.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, why distinguish?
Marc:I'm bitter.
Marc:You're bitter?
Marc:No, I'm better than I was.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:But it's sort of interesting that you did all these movies and you're recognizable.
Marc:So how do you feel about the sort of pace of your career?
Marc:Because in my mind, and this is just me not being rude, to me you should be like Julianne Moore.
Guest:Oh my God, that's a nice thing to say.
Marc:Yeah, it's sort of like, let's get her in the lead, please.
Marc:Let's get her up front.
Guest:Oh, my agent's going to love this.
Guest:I feel comfortable.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just feel really grateful that I work.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I should be more ambitious.
Marc:No, it's not a matter of ambition.
Marc:My question is, do you feel like this thing that you do, this sort of like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm alive.
Marc:Do you think that that thing has been detrimental to you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Very much.
Marc:We got to fucking fix this thing.
Guest:I'm trying.
Guest:Guess why I'm doing so much therapy.
Guest:I really am trying because I'm sick of it at this point.
Guest:You know, I'm 37 years old and I've been apologizing for myself my whole life.
Guest:Like I used to, honestly, the first meetings that I took here after Heavenly Creatures, people would be like, oh, that was a great movie.
Guest:And I would say, oh, so long ago.
Ugh.
Guest:You know, or like, oh, yeah, I haven't done anything since then.
Guest:I would tell them something terrible and they would be like, oh, okay.
Guest:You know, that doesn't work in America.
Marc:This whole town is driven by bullshit.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:All you got to do is like, I know, wasn't I amazing?
Marc:And they're like, wow, she's really something.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:You need to have.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I was never good at it either, but I was the angry version.
Guest:That's more interesting, at least.
Guest:Nobody wants a sad sack around.
Marc:It's not that interesting because they don't know what to do with that either.
Marc:But if I was in the male version of Heavenly Creatures and someone said that was great, I'm like, it wasn't that good.
Marc:Peter Jackson was kind of a dick, to be honest with you.
Marc:I'd be throwing people under the bus left and right.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I don't know if we should work with that guy.
Marc:It doesn't seem like anyone's safe with that guy's mouth.
Guest:That's so funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was the opposite end.
Marc:That's what I did with my insecurity.
Marc:I didn't go inward.
Marc:I'm like, well, fuck all you people.
Marc:You clearly don't get it, you know.
Marc:It's the opposite spectrum of the same problem, which is the overly confident, overcompensating, angry guy.
Marc:You just put that all in.
Marc:It's like beating the shit out of yourself right in front of people.
Marc:Oh, look at her defeat herself in one conversation.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I can make myself seem very unappealing very quickly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:don't do it to me because i've got you up on a pedestal lady no so all right don't fuck it up have i not done it already no no this is it's only making me like you more now you've done a bit of television you like to work i do like to work yeah very much do you but you want to do more movies right
Guest:Well, I just did a TV show that I really love a lot, which hasn't come out yet.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:It's called Togetherness.
Guest:It's a new show for HBO that the Duplass brothers made.
Marc:How'd that go?
Guest:It was so great.
Marc:What was the character that you played?
Marc:How is it different than you?
Guest:Well, it's different than me because we're married on the show and she's quite impatient, I guess.
Guest:She's just kind of, she's fed up with a lot of things.
Guest:She talks about it.
Guest:She's more confident than me.
Guest:It was nice.
Guest:It was nice to do that.
Marc:So what do you do when you get a role, when you read a script, when you have an opportunity like that, and you get a sense of the character?
Marc:Because I saw Happy Christmas, and that's a lot of you.
Marc:It's the most of you I've seen since Heavenly Creatures.
Marc:Really.
Marc:It's a big part.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it was pretty great.
Marc:I talked to Anna about it.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah, she had another nice thing to say about you.
Guest:Oh, I love her.
Marc:But what do you do?
Marc:Like when you see someone who's confident or aggressive or impatient, are you like, thank God, this is going to be great.
Guest:I do like it.
Guest:I mean, it's very comfortable for me to place it.
Guest:I mean, like in Happy Christmas, I'm not super confident and I have my own accent and it was all improvised and I was just kind of, you know.
Marc:No, but you're grounded and maternal.
Guest:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:And protective.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you're somebody who has gone through, you know, some personal struggle and compromise in order to sort of maintain the security and stability of your home and life.
Guest:A lot of times I do dream work.
Guest:Have you heard about that?
Guest:No.
Guest:It's a thing.
Guest:I have a teacher.
Guest:Basically, you sort of ask yourself for a dream.
Guest:You kind of go into your unconscious and different things come up.
Guest:You work through the script like it's a dream and just different things that come up for you.
Guest:It's just a way of kind of going to kind of a weirder place.
Marc:I don't know what the process is, but you're not sweeping.
Guest:Well, you write a letter to yourself about your role in the script and what you want to do, and then you have a dream.
Marc:A real dream?
Guest:Yeah, a real dream.
Guest:And then things come up from your unconscious.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, weird things come up.
Marc:So the process is, okay, you get a character, and you write a letter to yourself about the character.
Marc:What is the phrasing of that?
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:It's sort of different every time.
Marc:Well, give me an example.
Guest:That sounds so cheesy.
Guest:But you say, dear inner self.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:You just sort of ask for permission to have things revealed to you is how I put it a lot.
Guest:Really?
Guest:About the character or about the movie or if it's something you're going through in your life about that situation.
Marc:So this isn't an acting teacher.
Marc:This is a...
Guest:She's kind of an acting teacher in that she has a good sort of, well, she is an acting teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She sort of understands a lot about truth and when things seem honest and what things are interesting.
Guest:And, you know, you can talk through the dream and she can be like, oh, I wonder if that would be an interesting thing to put in here.
Marc:And this is a one-on-one thing you do with this person?
Guest:One time I didn't have a dream at all.
Guest:I asked myself five nights in a row and I didn't have a dream.
Guest:And then I realized, oh, I'm kind of living this.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I just sort of, I was like, why can't I have a dream about this?
Guest:And then I was like, oh, this movie is like my reality at this point in time.
Guest:Which movie was that?
Guest:It's a movie, the title changed.
Guest:Oh, it got called The Big Ask.
Guest:And it was just about...
Guest:Well, it was a weird thing because David Krumholtz plays a character who asks his friends, girlfriends to have like an orgy with him essentially.
Guest:But I guess my situation, I was in a relationship at the time where I was very confused.
Guest:I didn't understand what someone wanted.
Guest:I was trying to sort of make sense of what they were asking from me and I just felt kind of...
Guest:lost and abandoned and like is this gonna end what's gonna happen are we breaking up right now is he okay right now am i okay and so all that stuff was just like what i was playing in the movie so that was interesting so your dream was like yeah you're living it yeah i just my wouldn't even my unconscious was like i think you're okay yeah i think you got think about it for two seconds and stop asking me for a fucking dream yeah
Marc:So when this work is successful, when you are delivered information, in what form does it come in?
Guest:Sometimes there's an image...
Guest:I did this movie called Goodbye to All That, and I have a scene in the movie where I'm breaking up with my husband.
Guest:I take him to couples therapy, and we break up.
Guest:In the dream, I was watching a concert that I wasn't ready for.
Guest:I was very terrified of the concert happening, and I said to myself, okay, the way I'm going to be able to watch this concert is if I uncross my legs and put both my feet flat on the ground and just look straight ahead.
Guest:And I felt sort of like surge of bravery in the dream.
Guest:And so then when we were filming that scene, I did that same movement.
Guest:And it just because I have like an emotional connection to it, even though it's just from a dream, the same sort of feeling comes up when you do the movement and you know what you're connecting it with.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Is this making sense?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you can sort of make a little thing quite powerful.
Guest:You can bring it back to a place of something that's actually happened.
Marc:Or even if it hasn't happened, it's taken from your own subconscious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever that is in the dream means, you know.
Marc:Who knows?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it was deep enough to be revealed to you in a dream.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So if you just honor that, the movement or the action, you don't even know necessarily why it's connected.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but it just feels... Right.
Guest:Yeah, it feels like it comes from your guts.
Marc:That seems like a hell of a process.
Marc:And sometimes those that... So you're telling me that sometimes those actions or suggestions or images in the dream can actually...
Guest:be the foundation of a character or part of the building of the character yeah or sometimes a person will be in the dream and i'll realize like oh there's a lot of that person in this character and so i'll start to think about the character i had one dream about my little brother when i was doing a movie and i was like oh my god this is so there's so much of him
Marc:That's an interesting way to work.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Nothing easy about it.
Guest:No, it's not easy, but it's interesting, yeah.
Marc:And what other stuff do you usually do with line work and stuff?
Marc:Do you work from motivations and how do you kind of assess?
Guest:No.
Marc:You just go by instinct?
Guest:It's just instinct, yeah.
Guest:I'm not great with that stuff.
Guest:And I actually really have trouble when I work with a director who talks like that because I don't have that framework or that language.
Guest:People get annoyed with me sometimes.
Marc:What is your need or what is your motivation?
Marc:What do you want?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it gets a little confusing.
Marc:Can't we just get in it?
Marc:It's in the lines.
Guest:Yeah, and I can be kind of bitchy sometimes at work.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:No, I'm so invested in it and I don't want to sit there and have a conversation about like, well, what's your motivation?
Guest:Did you read the script?
Guest:You should know.
Guest:Why do I need to tell you what I'm doing in the scene?
Guest:Watch it and if it looks weird, tell me.
Marc:What else do you want to say?
Marc:And you worked with Anna up in the air, too.
Guest:We didn't have any scenes together.
Marc:You were Clooney's sister, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:Now, working with him, how was that?
Marc:that was great he's so has he done your show no no i don't know how those guys are that's a rare error there yeah i don't know how to get to that guy i don't either i don't know there's that whole that upper echelon of male actors i have no idea what uh the the daemons and the clonies i feel like those people would love to be on your show
Marc:I don't.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Give him a call.
Marc:Get back to me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I don't have anyone's phone number.
Guest:God.
Guest:I think I'm going around like a person who's going to get famous people's phone numbers.
Marc:No.
Marc:I imagine you probably walk up to him and go, we work together.
Marc:Do you remember me at all?
Guest:That's exactly what I do.
Marc:It is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I saw Matt Damon a few weeks ago.
Guest:You played his wife.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He was like, yeah, Melanie.
Guest:Hi.
Hi.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't want to make him uncomfortable and be like, hey, pal.
Guest:You know, he was like, yeah, nice to see you.
Marc:Hey, Matt.
Marc:Oh, you don't want to make him uncomfortable.
Marc:So you choose like, do you remember me?
Marc:That's, that's, no, that doesn't make anyone uncomfortable.
Marc:As opposed to like, hey, Matt, what's going on?
Marc:And you're like, hi, I don't know if we were in the thing.
Guest:I didn't say, do you remember me?
Guest:But I was like, oh, it's Melanie.
Guest:You know, just in case.
Guest:You did not do that.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:What?
What?
Guest:I did do that.
Guest:I do do that.
Guest:I feel like it's nice to do that to people.
Guest:People who meet a lot of people who probably expect them to remember them.
Guest:You were on set with him?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:For weeks?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'm just checking the facts.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:This is going to be a real tuning point.
Marc:No, it's not.
Marc:Is it?
Guest:Yeah, because I'll probably listen to this podcast and be like, oh my God, get your shit together.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I'm not a tough love guy, but for some reason you're bringing it out of me.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Guest:It is surprising me a little bit, though.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Am I letting you down?
Guest:No.
Guest:See, now you're insecure.
Marc:Why is it surprising you?
Guest:Because, I don't know, you're getting so tough on me.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:You don't usually do that.
Guest:You're right.
Marc:I think what it is is that I'm struggling with some of the same things.
Marc:I'm always amazed.
Marc:Now, like if I see Jonah Hill or I run into or I see Seth Rogen, I never think to go like, what's up, man?
Marc:But like now, for some reason, they're like, hey, Mark.
Marc:And I'm like, no way.
Guest:So you know what I'm talking about.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That makes me feel better.
Marc:I completely relate.
Marc:I'm like, you know, I'm not going to be that guy.
Marc:The guy who assumes like a relationship or, you know, but I never.
Marc:I mean, I've only had Seth in here with his buddy.
Marc:I don't know him, but it was nice that he remembered me.
Guest:Of course he would remember you.
Guest:I mean, also you're a famous person.
Marc:No, I'm not as famous as you, number one.
Marc:And number two, I talked to him for an hour.
Marc:You know, I didn't spend six weeks on a film with him, you know.
Guest:Right, but this is a very intimate experience.
Guest:He probably remembers you better than some people he did spend six weeks on a film with.
Marc:I guess that's right.
Marc:Maybe I don't understand that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you worked with Soderbergh on that.
Marc:That was the informant.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How was he as the director?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Like a dream.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Greatest.
Guest:My favorite.
Guest:I don't like compliments.
Guest:I'm surprised.
Guest:It's not my favorite thing.
Guest:So and he doesn't do that at all.
Guest:So it was really it was nice.
Guest:He gave me a compliment like when we finished filming, which was perfect.
Guest:But he's just sort of sensible.
Guest:He'll do it again if he didn't feel like he got it.
Guest:He'll just give you notes that make a lot of sense.
Guest:It lets you kind of run through it.
Guest:It's loose, but it's controlled.
Guest:It's perfect.
Marc:Let's land on Swanberg, and then we're going to talk about eating.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because you feel bad about that cookie?
Guest:Sorry.
Marc:I don't feel bad about it.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:You're going to help me with my own eating disorder.
Marc:That's what you're going to do.
Guest:Do you have an eating disorder?
Marc:Kind of.
Guest:Seriously?
Marc:I have body dysmorphia and I don't ever feel, I love to eat, but I always feel guilty about eating.
Guest:That's so interesting.
Marc:I always think I'm fat.
Marc:Always.
Marc:My mother was kind of crazy with that stuff.
Marc:It's conditional.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I'm talking about?
Guest:I do know what you're talking about.
Marc:How do you know what I'm talking about?
Guest:I feel like my mother would be okay with me saying that.
Guest:I feel bad because my parents have really worked hard on themselves over the years.
Guest:And I feel like that's all you can ask for.
Guest:And they're very...
Guest:loving people and there have been a lot of apologies and amends made and stuff like that honest ones very honest very very very honest ones and i feel so grateful um
Guest:And they're working on their relationship still, which is so amazing to me.
Marc:So they're open-minded people that are willing to admit fault.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, my mother had a lot of eating issues when I was growing up.
Guest:And it's a tough thing to be around.
Guest:I mean, friends of mine who have kids are so sensitive about talking about food, talking about feeling guilty about food, talking about their own bodies, anything like that.
Guest:And it always makes me think, like, oh, God, you should have that amount of care about it.
Guest:And it's really an intense thing to see someone...
Guest:not like their own body and then also have a lot of weirdness around what you're eating when you're eating it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you really had it.
Marc:You really had that thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's a bad thing.
Guest:It's so hard to get rid of it, and I think that's why now I'm like, oh, I'm going to eat a fucking cookie.
Guest:Like, once I stopped being so obsessive about my thinking about eating and my eating, just the freedom from that was overwhelming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it feels really nice to not think about food all the time.
Guest:But, you know, I weigh like a lot more than I used to because I don't think about food all the time.
Guest:And you're okay.
Guest:I used to be very skinny.
Guest:But you would never know because I still hated my body and I walked around in big, you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I definitely understand.
Marc:What's the point?
Marc:I understand it.
Marc:It's one thing like people, you know, people can say like self-hatred this or that.
Marc:But the way you framed it, which I think is that it's just horrible.
Right.
Marc:to have somebody not like their body, the vessel, the container, the physical being of who they are is just never right.
Guest:Yeah, and you can never escape it.
Guest:You're with yourself all the time, and also you have to eat.
Marc:Yeah, that's the other thing, yeah.
Guest:And eating is social, and it's the most inescapable thing to have an issue with.
Marc:How did you fix it?
Guest:honestly i well i was bulimic for 10 years and i was never like a bingy bulimic because i was too ashamed to ever like binge eat i'd never but i had such a strict diet and then if i ate anything over it then i would yeah get rid of it right and i just was obsessive about my eating and
Guest:And I got in a relationship when I was 21, and I really opened up to this person, and he said to me, that's so violent.
Guest:What a violent thing to do to yourself.
Guest:And I never really had thought about it.
Guest:Like, I remember when I was 12 years old and I read about it, I was like, oh, great idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That solves it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my body was changing and I was freaking out because suddenly I had hips and breasts and stuff like that.
Guest:And I was like, oh, God, help me.
Guest:It's just going to get worse.
Guest:There's more fat bits that I have to worry about.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I was trying to control it.
Guest:And this boyfriend that I had was just like, God, that's so... And then he started crying.
Guest:And he was like, that breaks my heart that you would do that to yourself.
Guest:It breaks my heart that you can't eat, experience something delicious.
Guest:We'd go out to dinner and I would have a salad with no dressing.
Guest:That's all I would ever eat.
Guest:And he started...
Guest:kind of it sounds weird and controlling but he started like monitoring kind of like he would make me eat something and not let me watch what he was putting in it he would cook something and be like stay out of the kitchen then i would eat it and then i wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom
Guest:So I started eating pasta and things that had oil on it, and I freaked out for a few months.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, I'm not, like, getting really fat.
Guest:Food is delicious, and I feel fucking happy.
Guest:And this is nice.
Guest:And I, like, relapsed for a while, for a few years, and then... I guess when I was around 25, I just was, like, done.
Guest:I just started...
Guest:I still had a lot of feelings about my body, but it just sort of got better and better.
Guest:And now I exercise so much because that's a really good way of just keeping my mind straight and feeling like I'm in my body without obsessing about my body.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I just, I don't know.
Guest:I also think it's kind of lovely.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, oh, that's kind of sexy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's all round and bouncy.
Guest:It's like, what's wrong with that?
Guest:I don't know why I was denying that for so long.
Guest:I was so excited to be able to see all my ribs, really.
Guest:Not everyone's supposed to look like that.
Guest:Those women are beautiful.
Guest:It's beautiful when everyone looks different.
Guest:So you're aware of it still, but you have... Oh, and I have, like, some, you know, I have moments where I'm just like, oh, God, oh, my God, I'm so crazy.
Guest:I should be skinny.
Guest:I should be starving myself.
Guest:What am I thinking?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I watched the Emmys the other night, and I was like, it was like it suddenly occurred to me, like, everyone's so fucking skinny.
Guest:Like, women are not eating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They are just not eating.
Guest:And what are you doing sitting here with your, like, Thai food or whatever I was currently eating?
Yeah.
Guest:i was like you are insane what are you thinking it's like a voice like from you know some other part of myself will come up and like slap me in the face and be like don't you remember what you're supposed to be doing and then i'm just like shut the fuck up like i got so tired of listening to you do you know whose voice it was it's my own voice i think yeah i mean you know i'm sure it's
Guest:My mother.
Guest:I'm sure it's, you know, a lot of different things.
Marc:It was some of the stuff that was unsaid by your mother probably.
Marc:This idea of what you had to do for her.
Guest:Some things were said, you know.
Guest:She was intense about it.
Guest:She really cared about it a lot.
Guest:I was in fat kid aerobics.
Guest:No.
Guest:With fat kids.
Marc:But were you ever fat?
Marc:No.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But your mom thought.
Guest:I was never skinny, though.
Guest:I've never been, you know, I've always been like.
Marc:But was your mom like panicked about it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:And I, in my brain, I was like, oh, I'm a fat kid.
Guest:I just can't really see it properly.
Guest:And then I started looking at myself and I was like, oh, there it is.
Guest:There it is.
Marc:Finally.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I can see me for my true fat self.
Guest:Oh, I see it.
Marc:My mom is right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember reading that book, Blubber, this Judy Blume book.
Guest:It's like a...
Guest:And the character was like describing what it felt like to be in the shower and what they're buying like, oh, sometimes I wish I could see my feet when I was in the shower.
Guest:And I remember being in the shower and being like, I can totally see my feet.
Yeah.
Guest:But I'm fat.
Guest:I know that I'm very fat.
Guest:But that's so weird that I can see.
Guest:And I was like, nothing's like sticking out.
Guest:But I just couldn't, I just had no sense of what my body looked like for a really long time.
Marc:I still don't.
Marc:Like if I get over a certain weight, this weird 10 pound area that I'm comfortable in, I literally just want to disappear.
Yeah.
Marc:And if I'm aware of it and I'm talking to somebody, like a woman or something, I'm like... It just takes away all my confidence.
Marc:It takes away any sense of identity I have.
Marc:It's really powerful.
Guest:Yeah, I used to have that number as well in my head.
Guest:I had the absolute, this is as big as you can ever get.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm way past that now.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:That's like 15 pounds ago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, congratulations on liberating yourself from that dialogue.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, not 100%, but, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but it literally gets that voice to what we were talking about before, where you can see the self that you have that can exist in the world and should be how you're existing.
Marc:But that voice, in that book I'm reading, they talk about that voice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because everyone who's like us has a similar version of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that voice has a similar focus.
Marc:And that is your best...
Marc:When that voice started happening, that's how you self-parented.
Guest:That was... God, that's so interesting.
Guest:I mean, that's a really amazing piece to kind of click in.
Marc:It's like, you know, like your parents are good and they, they have, and you, you don't, you, you can't be responsible for no issues.
Marc:But when you're very young, it's like, I feel fucking fat, but my mom loves me.
Marc:But then like, why am I so uncomfortable?
Marc:And then that thing, it's like, you're fat.
Marc:And you're like, I am.
Marc:And that is your attempt at actually self-parenting is maintaining that voice.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I have a lot of those voices telling me all kinds of things.
Guest:It's a weird thing inside you that really does try to cling on to that negativity.
Guest:And I felt that before.
Guest:Like I felt that in therapy, like having kind of breakthroughs.
Guest:It's been like, well, who are you though?
Guest:Who are you if you let go of that?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's also, like, I find that that seems like some of the focus around it is the ability to not, you know, that awkwardness of, like, needing the comfort or needing the love that wasn't there.
Marc:And, like, that discomfort of, like, just sitting with that self that you feel is ill-defined.
Marc:It's like, I have to eat something.
Marc:I've got to, you know, do this.
Marc:What's on TV?
Marc:I've got to, you know, that grabby feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, this is very personal, but after I got divorced, I did a lot of not distracting myself from feelings.
Guest:Like I just get in the bath with nothing in there, like not a book or my phone or anything like that and just be like, all right, you're just going to go through this right now.
Guest:What came out of you?
Guest:Oh, God, it was like torture.
Guest:It was awful.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It was like the end of what I thought my life was going to be.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But it's such a crazy thing to sit with it.
Guest:I was so afraid of sitting with it, and I didn't for a while.
Guest:I was like, la, la, la, la, cleaning, cleaning, seeing people, letting everyone know that everything's okay.
Guest:And then just finally when I was like, what if I just sat with it?
Guest:and and and i was ready for the possibility that it could like kill me you know like it felt so overwhelming and then i was like just see if it does and it it doesn't like all pass because there's too much there but something passes through you when you just let it happen and it's amazing
Marc:Well, I think that a lot of that has to also, not just as a person, but, you know, inform you as an artist as well.
Marc:That, you know, because you're coming, that means that, you know, if you're able to go through that and that very sort of almost primal fear of that for somebody like you to survive that, to survive those baths.
Marc:You know, must give you like, if not a tangible confidence, but a way of engaging in life where you're like, I can handle this.
Guest:Yeah, I think that now I am far enough past it that I do feel strong again, you know.
Guest:You know, that weird thing where you're sort of like grasping around.
Guest:You just don't know.
Marc:Well, look, you're lucky that you're not, you know, like, you know, you don't know what can happen during those times.
Marc:There's a million things you can do to avoid that shit.
Marc:And some of them are, you know, dangerous.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, you avoided that.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:I feel grateful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that in hearing you talk about that and in thinking about Happy Christmas as a piece of work, you know, that like I have to imagine some of that groundedness that you got from moving through that stuff must have informed that character a bit.
Guest:Oh, that's nice, yeah.
Marc:And the fact that the way Swanberg works is that it is all improvised.
Marc:I mean, was that daunting to you?
Guest:It was a little bit.
Guest:I mean, I had done some improvised stuff as a teenager.
Guest:I was excited about it.
Guest:And I think the thing that really helped, and maybe Anna said this to you, is Joe is...
Guest:honestly so okay with whatever happens there's not a lot of pressure like i feel like it would be different if he was like you really need to make something great happen here and go you know he's just like what's an experiment see what happens but i think you're all aware that you were shooting on film
Guest:Yeah, so you got one take.
Marc:Right, so he didn't have to really say it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But there were some times where we would do a take and I would be like, are we seriously moving on?
Guest:Like, he's going to piece that together somehow?
Guest:And you're directing in your head.
Guest:Yeah, the camera's just moving between us and it felt so loose and...
Marc:I thought it was, it gave me, it's real independent filmmaking.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, his choice to use film, you know, because the tone of that, you can't get that tone.
Guest:I know, I really love it.
Marc:Yeah, it was spectacular.
Marc:And to know that, because I just happened to be at a screening where he did a Skype Q&A at the Roxy in San Francisco.
Marc:And I didn't even see the showing that he was speaking at, but we came in early because I wanted to see him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like how aware he is of of of how special what he is doing is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In capturing the type of emotions and letting that the thing sort of live and breathe on its own volition, you know, with with actors who are capable of doing it.
Marc:And then to shoot on film, I just thought was like, well, this is real.
Marc:This is like old school ballsy filmmaking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because it means something to know as an actor that we can't just do the, it's just video thing.
Guest:Yeah, it was exciting.
Guest:I mean, I do so many independent movies and they're all digital now.
Guest:It would have been so long since I'd had that feeling.
Marc:Well, I think it's a sweet little movie.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:It was so great to see you sort of stretch out.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I'm a big fan.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:I'm a big fan of yours.
Marc:Do you feel okay about everything?
Guest:I'm going to get in my car and be like, oh, God, why?
Marc:What can I do to help that?
Guest:You can't.
Marc:What are you working on now?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Marc:You still do two and a half men?
Guest:I haven't for a long time.
Marc:Do you like doing that?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I have a lot of fun doing it.
Marc:It's good to do jokes, right?
Guest:It's good to do jokes, and it's really... Have you done that before, like a sitcom?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I've just done my own show, but it's not really like that.
Guest:No, it's different.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's not like the audience.
Marc:No, yeah, it's not like... Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, no.
Guest:There's something about it that feels so old school.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And it's so fun and the audience knows the character.
Guest:It's weird to be a character that people get excited to see.
Guest:That's fun, yeah.
Guest:On like an American sitcom.
Marc:Do you like it?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I really like it.
Guest:I have a good time.
Guest:But I have a couple of things coming out.
Marc:Which ones?
Guest:The movie that I was talking about that's called Goodbye to All That, which is with Paul Schneider, who is great.
Guest:And a movie that my friend Simon Helberg wrote and directed and starred in, which is based on the true story of when his relationship fell apart.
Marc:What's that called?
Guest:It's called We'll Never Have Paris.
Marc:Well, I'm looking forward to them.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you for talking to me.
Marc:I think we did it.
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Wasn't she amazing?
Marc:I think she's amazing.
Marc:Go watch her act.
Marc:She's amazing.
Marc:Look, go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:You want some JustCoffee.coop?
Marc:If you get the WTF blend, I get a little on the back end.
Marc:It's a nice dark roast.
Marc:Nice dark roast for a dark-minded dude, me.
Marc:Yeah, go, you know, leave a comment.
Marc:Get the app.
Marc:Upgrade to the premium.
Marc:Get all that stuff.
Marc:New Year's, man.
Marc:Happy New Year's to you.
Marc:Really, seriously.
Marc:Let's be good to each other.
Guest:You want to?
Guest:Amen.
Guest:We'll be right back.
Guest:Boomer lives!