Episode 554 - Rhett Miller
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the forget about it all right let's focus let's focus huddle up huddle up
Marc:It's a difficult day for some people.
Marc:Okay, I'm not talking to everybody right now.
Marc:Look, some of you may be thrilled to be having Thanksgiving with family.
Marc:This might be a high point.
Marc:It might be an opportunity for you and your kids to see their grandparents, their aunts and uncles, and their cousins.
Marc:And that might even be the case.
Marc:And it might be a terrifying and taxing, emotionally taxing experience.
Marc:But look, I'm not going to begrudge anybody a wonderful day with their family today.
Marc:But I would like to speak to the people that are entering this situation with not the best outlook.
Marc:or disposition or with good expectations maybe i'd like to reach out to them right now because for some people you know who you are this is going to be a fucking nightmare today is going to be a nightmare all right look let's give thanks we'll give thanks
Marc:But man, some of us, we're just going to have to get through this shit.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Now, I'm not necessarily talking about me.
Marc:I've made some peace with the situation.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:I'm getting better.
Marc:It's only taken me about 20 years to be okay.
Marc:But you never know, man.
Marc:You never know entering this situation.
Marc:Let me do a little business here first.
Marc:But hang out, hang out.
Marc:First, I want to say that today on the show, Rhett Miller, the wonderful alt-country rocker, is that what we call him?
Marc:The old 97s is his band.
Marc:He's also done some solo work.
Marc:Nice guy.
Marc:Phenomenal artist.
Marc:He's going to hang out and play a song or two.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Let's get back to the task at hand, team.
Marc:I'm talking to the emotionally volatile.
Marc:I'm talking to the emotionally sensitive.
Marc:I'm talking to the emotionally traumatized, to the scarred, to the people with resentments against mommy and daddy or mom and pop or mother and father or whoever might be your grandparents.
Marc:God forbid.
Marc:They're the troublemakers.
Marc:But this is a big day, man.
Marc:We got to suit up emotionally.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Now, here's my pep talk.
Marc:I'm improvising this.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So, look.
Marc:I don't know where you are right now.
Marc:Maybe you're already there.
Marc:Maybe you're in it.
Marc:Maybe you've taken a walk.
Marc:to listen to WTF, to get out of the fucking house for a few minutes.
Marc:Maybe the turkey's in the oven.
Marc:Maybe shit is already cooking.
Marc:Maybe you've already had a fight with your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your cousin.
Marc:Who it?
Marc:A, B, C, D, E, or F. Whatever.
Marc:Pick it.
Marc:Maybe you're the one who just lost their shit and is now running out of the house.
Marc:taking a breather in the cold air taking in where you grew up maybe taking in where you know something very familiar to you maybe you're in the car you're going to drive around a little bit hey look there's where you used to buy liquor when you're in high school oh i wonder if that guy's still there oh hey i wonder if my friend's still alive
Marc:Oh, I wonder if that guy couldn't still be working at that place, could he?
Marc:Maybe I'll go by there.
Marc:Oh, shit, it's Thanksgiving.
Marc:Nothing's open.
Marc:Nothing's open.
Marc:I'm just going to drive around until I feel better, and then I'll go back home, and everybody will be like, hey, you feel better?
Marc:And you'll be like, a little bit.
Marc:Yeah, I'm sorry I lost my shit.
Marc:All right, let's get back.
Marc:Get out of the fantasy.
Marc:Let's get into the nuts and bolts of it.
Marc:How are we going to have a good day today?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, first, I think you've got to open your heart and realize that you're a grown person.
Marc:All right.
Marc:If you are a grown person, most people listen to my show are grown people.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Whatever they're going to do, whatever buttons they're going to push, they're old buttons.
Marc:There's no reason that they should work anymore.
Marc:So I guess what I'm suggesting, this is bold, disconnect the buttons before you go in, realize where they are.
Marc:And then, you know, maybe push them yourself a couple of times to make sure they're not registering and just shut that.
Marc:Maybe close, you know, just I would go on on manual.
Marc:I need no buttons.
Marc:Just trust your instincts.
Marc:Trust your heart on this.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Just, you know, turn off the whole panel.
Marc:And walk in and realize first, all right, maybe you're pissed off about something that happened a long time ago and it's just ongoing and it's never going to be let go of.
Marc:And maybe it's just about the cycles of emotional chaos that happen when you go home.
Marc:We all know that it's very easy to get around your parents and act like a fucking child.
Marc:And it's going to happen a little bit.
Marc:Just pick the good, pick good moments for it.
Marc:Maybe make it be positive.
Marc:Take a breath.
Marc:Take a breath.
Marc:If you're cooking, don't hurt yourself.
Marc:You know, focus.
Marc:Stay focused.
Marc:Don't panic.
Marc:If you need people out of the kitchen, get them the fuck out of the kitchen.
Marc:If mom is intruding on your, you know, maybe your pie, say, look, I'm making a pie.
Marc:You know, you can do your work over there, but just stay out of my fucking pie, mom.
Marc:Whatever the case is.
Marc:If you have family that enjoys sitting around watching sports and it's not your thing, let them do it.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:Go in the other room.
Marc:Talk to the ladies.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I don't know what happens.
Marc:All I'm trying to do is tell you to have a nice time and be grateful.
Marc:That whoever's still around is still around, even if they drive you fucking crazy.
Marc:The one thing you're going to notice when you get back there is that everybody's getting older.
Marc:You're getting older.
Marc:Kids are growing up.
Marc:Parents are getting older.
Marc:Maybe grandma's still around.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:It's just that there's not a lot of time, folks.
Marc:There's just not a lot of time.
Marc:With good families or bad families or troubled families, there's just not a lot of time.
Marc:And God forbid your resentment is so deep that you just want them all to die.
Marc:God forbid you're in that place and you're still going home for Thanksgiving.
Marc:But for anybody else, remember...
Marc:finite amount of time it's not a lot of time if you can get some clarity if you can get some resolve if you can let some shit go this Thanksgiving do it do it if you can make it right and get some acceptance of yourself and your family this is a great opportunity if you're with a bunch of people that are avoiding their families well just have a nice time then you made your choice I hope it's the right choice I hope you don't long for that shitty dish that so and so makes
Marc:And for those of you that this doesn't resonate with, well, good for you.
Marc:Have a great Thanksgiving.
Marc:We can get through it, though, you know, the people I'm talking to.
Marc:We're going to be all right, all right?
Marc:Because I'm sort of telling this stuff to myself, too, because I wasn't going to go.
Marc:There were some issues, and, like, you know, I have to cook, and, you know, I was like, do I have to cook for everybody?
Marc:I just – there were some issues, and I was – I haven't been in a couple years, but –
Marc:You know, I realized, like, you know, everyone's getting old, man.
Marc:You know, we don't see each other enough, unless you do, unless you're down the street.
Marc:That's your choice.
Marc:I know.
Marc:They help with the kids.
Marc:All right, so we're going to talk to Rhett Miller in a minute.
Marc:And I just want you to take a breath, man.
Marc:Take a breath.
Marc:I know she's annoying.
Marc:He's annoying.
Marc:They're annoying.
Marc:I know it.
Marc:I know you're about it.
Marc:You're on your last nerve.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:You get to go home.
Marc:And theoretically, everybody loves each other.
Marc:All right?
Marc:So happy Thanksgiving.
Marc:And let's talk to Red Miller now.
Guest:so you're with the old 97s yeah yeah we were touring this new record yeah we've been on which i have right here yeah most messed up what are you 12 albums in this is the 10th 97's album and then i've made five solo records including the one i made in high school how do you look the one you made in high school
Guest:Yeah, which is embarrassing.
Marc:Is it embarrassing?
Guest:It's only out in, we made a thousand copies of the CD, and I signed and numbered every one.
Guest:And I had a British accent, what can I say?
Guest:Did you really?
Guest:Seventh generation Texan kid in Dallas, but all the people I listened to were Echo and the Bunnymen and David Bowie.
Guest:So you affected that?
Guest:Not intentionally, just the music I liked, that's how they sang.
Marc:Sure, I mean, that's what you do.
Marc:It's like when you play guitar, you're gonna feel somebody else.
Marc:You're gonna pop strings.
Marc:I like to land somewhere between Angus and Peter Green.
Guest:nice if i can with my limited understanding so what was that first record it was just you just well my bass player in the old 97s produced it he was uh he was like a few years old he was seven years older than me and we had girlfriends that were friends we got introduced and he gave me my first gig opening for his band peyote cowboys peyote cowboys such a great psychedelic band in dallas yeah and this is uh what's his name what's your murray hammond you've been within that long yeah yeah since i was 15 years old
Marc:And he's a couple years older, I guess?
Guest:He's turning 50 in two days.
Guest:I'm 43, so he's seven years older.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So he kind of took you under his wing in a way.
Guest:Yeah, he taught me how to do gigs, taught me how to smoke pot, taught me everything.
Guest:You need that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's important.
Guest:Okay, so let's go back.
Guest:You're growing up in what, suburban Dallas?
Guest:Big time suburban Dallas.
Guest:I was kind of on the outskirts of the rich section because my grandfather had a shit ton of money for like generations.
Guest:So you're one of those sort of like Texas aristocratic families?
Guest:But it's kind of funny because my grandfather managed to squander the entire fortune before I was even born.
Marc:Was it oil or land?
Guest:Textile.
Marc:Textiles.
Guest:The Millers were textile family.
Guest:What did they make?
Guest:Like fabric?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, I think most of the money came from kind of like profiteering during the wars.
Guest:They would sell uniforms to the government.
Marc:So they had government contracts.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And made a lot of money, big Dallas money.
Guest:Had the biggest house across from the Highland Park Country Club.
Guest:But then in 1954, my grandfather, who was always ahead of his time, decided he would buy a professional football team.
Guest:So the New York Yankees,
Marc:football team which was a yankees football team yeah and uh they moved to dallas and became the dallas texans yeah lasted less than one season and it was a disaster that was it he done that's where he lost all his money on a fucking football team who would think you'd lose money in freaking dallas texas how can he well i mean he made a big jump it was a it was a vanity project
Guest:Yeah, and in a way, I think he shot himself in the foot.
Guest:He did some stuff that I'm sure he would undo if he could.
Guest:Did you know him?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I knew him a little.
Guest:He died when I was like 17.
Guest:And what'd your old man do?
Guest:He's still a lawyer.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:He used to be the kind of lawyer that did a lot of- You say lawyer like a Texan.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just a twinge.
Marc:You don't have a lot of it, but I hear it.
Guest:Oh, and when I get off tour with the guys, it's a little more.
Guest:Kian, our guitar player, Kian.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, they'll say, what's his name, Kian?
Guest:Kian.
Guest:Is it Kim?
Guest:Kian?
Guest:Ken.
Marc:Ken.
Guest:Ken.
Marc:Ken.
Guest:so okay so your dad's a lawyer dad's a lawyer and now he does all this like you know good guy stuff helping out people or debt collectors or harassing them and stuff like that oh so getting evicted so he's he's come full circle yeah yeah he made some bread and he's he's given back now no he never made any bread oh he didn't he was always a good guy lawyer yeah he's he used to tell us that every third generation makes the money that's what he would tell us so is that on you now then
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I'm like, this is too much pressure.
Guest:My brother's doing pretty well, though.
Guest:Older brother?
Guest:Younger.
Guest:I'm the oldest.
Guest:He's a year and a half younger.
Guest:He's a CFO of a Fortune 500 company.
Marc:He's the financial guy?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:He's the guy that says, why are you spending so much money?
Guest:yeah he's like we should pull it back a little bit we should acquire this competitor yeah yeah oh really yeah and you don't know what kind of company it is it's a marketing it's a marketing company that mostly deals with like churches and greek organizations like fraternity kind of stuff oh yeah
Guest:He's a super sweet guy and super smart.
Guest:You know, I guess our lifestyles on paper seem very different, but we're not all that different.
Marc:Well, you look pretty good.
Marc:Genetically, you seem to be holding up pretty well for a fucking rock guy.
Marc:I mean, you know what I mean?
Marc:You're maintaining your healthy, good looks.
Marc:Your hair looks... Thanks.
Marc:Do you dye it?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I did put a couple of highlights in this year.
Guest:Thanks for noticing.
Oh, yeah.
Guest:But you're not shying away from the gray?
Guest:Well, I haven't had to deal with it yet.
Guest:I imagine I might go vanity style.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:You're gonna be that guy?
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:You country guys, you're supposed to age hard.
Marc:Well, my bass player's doing it for me.
Guest:He's got white hair.
Marc:Oh, he's doing it for everybody?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Isn't that weird, man?
Marc:it is a little to think how long you've been doing this but i didn't realize you started so fucking young that's why you're younger than most of the guys in the band then oh yeah i'm by far the well no phillips our drummer's only three years older than me all right so so what happened so you're growing up in texas you got money that that's a whole other well your family does a little bit that's a whole other thing in texas texas money is there's something that it could be obnoxious it can tend to be obnoxious dude you kidding me
Guest:growing up in highland park and and the weird thing was that we had sort of the trappings there was the things that fell through when when all the money disappeared there was a good house yeah they got turned into a slightly less good house right and you know kind of trading down but staying in the highland park school system which my brother and sister went to yeah and it's not evil but i mean you know where does dick cheney live you know where does george bush you know they all live in highland park does junior live there
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:His museum is in Highland Park.
Guest:His museum is a block away from the house that I ended up growing up in.
Marc:I can't even imagine what's in that museum.
Marc:George W, not Senior.
Marc:W. W's museum.
Marc:His presidential museum.
Marc:What's he got in there?
Marc:Some baseball paraphernalia?
Marc:Picture books.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I wonder what's in there.
Marc:I'd have to go in there just out of curiosity.
Marc:Maybe I will.
Marc:So is he somebody you would see around?
Guest:No.
Marc:You moved there later, I think, anyway.
Guest:Yeah, and I haven't lived there for 10 years.
Guest:No, God, I haven't lived there for a long time.
Guest:It's 97, I moved to L.A.
Marc:So what were you doing as a kid?
Marc:When did you start playing the guitar?
Guest:I started at 12, and it hurt my fingers too bad, so I stopped.
Guest:Did you ever get joint pain?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and on this tour, I hyperextended my right knee, and so I've got a sprained... With stage antics?
Guest:Yeah, dude.
Guest:I'm such an idiot.
Guest:Like, 43 years old, and I climb up.
Guest:If it's a good gig, and I feel bad now for people that saw gigs where I didn't do this, but if it's a good gig, at the end of the night, we start our final song, Time Bomb.
Guest:It's always the final song of the encore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll climb up on the drum riser and then climb up on top of my amp on the drum riser.
Guest:And then when the first big hit of the song happens, I'll jump as high as I can off the amp.
Guest:And sometimes, because some of the risers are pretty high, my amp's always the same level, but I'm catching like 12 feet of air and then landing it.
Guest:And you fucked it up, huh?
Guest:In Chicago, I landed it with my knees locked.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Woke up in the middle of the night that night and just felt like, what's wrong with me?
Marc:Oh.
Marc:I just felt pain from you saying Locked.
Marc:And I just got hit with the pain.
Marc:But okay, so you're 12 years old and you play, and then in junior high, when did you cut that first record with Murray?
Guest:I was 16, it came out when I was 17.
Guest:And what, was it a country song?
Guest:No, that was when I had the British accent.
Marc:No, I know, but I thought maybe it'd be.
Guest:Well, it was exactly the same kind of songs I write now.
Guest:It was really just strummy, folky, you know, definitely one foot in the pop world, one foot in like the, I grew up loving like folk music.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:Like the Kingston Trio, like real square kind of stuff.
Guest:Where'd you get that shit?
Guest:My parents, my mom.
Guest:Your mom had Kingston Trio albums?
Guest:She was a singer.
Guest:She was always in choirs.
Guest:Her dream was to be a backup singer for, I don't know, like Barry Manilow or somebody like that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Your mom's dream was to be a backup singer?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like in that documentary, 20 Feet from Stardom?
Marc:I think it's a low-pressure gig where you could probably really enjoy yourself.
Marc:It's probably not even that low pressure.
Marc:I mean, you got to have the goods.
Guest:Well, Sheryl Crow did it for years before she went out on her own.
Guest:She was like a Michael Jackson backup singer.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:Do you know Sheryl Crow?
Guest:She's got a great voice.
Guest:I've gotten to do stuff with her.
Marc:She's super nice.
Marc:Yeah, you've gotten to do a lot of stuff with a lot of different people.
Marc:Because it's weird to musicians.
Marc:Even if I listen to a couple records, I really like the musician.
Marc:All of a sudden, if I've got to talk to you, then I'm like, all right, let's see what they've been up to.
Marc:I'm like, oh, I've missed everything.
Marc:They've had an entire career.
Marc:There's 900 records, and I know that one.
Guest:Well, I used to see you at Largo all the time when we were both at the old Largo.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We both hang out.
Marc:I know you were part of the, you've always been sort of, there's a couple of you guys that seem to be around the, there's like you, Ted Leo, Amy Mann, Nico Case.
Marc:There's some people that seem to kind of run in the same circle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not like the, maybe the most inner circle with the John Bryans or the.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:And John is a Largo guy.
Marc:But I don't think I really know John.
Marc:Like I kind of like, cause I lived in New York and I'd come into Largo occasionally.
Marc:I never locked into the, you know, like Paula Tompkins and Galifianakis and those guys were there all the time and they knew John.
Marc:Like, I just know John is this like, oh, he's that genius guy that Mary Lynn used to go out with.
Marc:I just, I know him as a mythic personality.
Marc:He's a myth to me.
Guest:He's kind of that way even with people that are friends with him.
Guest:Because he's so... He exists in some other sphere.
Guest:And now, as far as I know, he's totally on the backwards schedule, John Bryan is.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:Wakes up at 9 o'clock at night, eats breakfast, goes into the studio.
Marc:He's like a savant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like a pop music savant.
Guest:He's on a spectrum.
Marc:Yeah, of some kind.
Marc:Yeah, that's what always my feeling of it was.
Marc:And then when he produced...
Guest:like he produced one of the fiona records right yeah he worked on one and then produced and and then he produced a couple right and then the kanye west record that was like when i heard he did that i was like what the fuck dude i went into the studio when they were working on that him and tom biller his engineer at the time was super great and they were like come on down kanye's not here it's super fun so i went in and they were it was real weird kanye's not here it's fun yeah
Guest:it was real weird it was all quiet and dark and they're like being super serious and and i hung out for a while just watching them work and finally i was like dude what you asked me to come down you said it was fun what's going on they're like well actually kanye is here now but he's in the vocal booth taking a nap with a lady
Guest:He had been standing on the street.
Guest:Chick walks by.
Guest:You want to come in and hear my dope beats or whatever?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Winds up in the vocal booth five feet away from us.
Guest:Fucking.
Guest:Going to town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, that's why I got into this business.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's rock and roll right there or hip hop or what.
Marc:It is what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, because you always had a real pop sensibility, obviously, from when you were in high school.
Marc:There seems to be... I know there's obviously crossover.
Marc:You do all the stuff with the old 97s.
Marc:It's your band, but there's a tone there that you honor that's traditional almost.
Guest:I've pushed them.
Guest:There were a couple of records where I really wanted us to try out.
Guest:I remember in 99, I was listening to a bunch of Bell and Sebastian, which is, I don't know if you know them, they're Scottish.
Guest:They're kind of fae.
Guest:They got called fae a lot, which I think people, when they say that, they're usually talking shit about it.
Guest:But they would have strings and they'd have all that kind of stuff.
Guest:Real lush.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I liked it because it was fucking pretty, but really clever words and cool melodies, whatever, I was into it.
Guest:So I pushed the band on fight songs to try and be just a little less.
Guest:Because we were coming from a world, we made a record for Bloodshot Records, which is- I know those guys.
Guest:Boy, they were pushing the term honky-skronk at the time.
Guest:And I was like, I don't want to be involved in anything that could be described as honky-skronk.
Guest:It's what alt-country eventually became the tag that people used.
Marc:But the weird thing about what alt-country really was is that I don't think any of you necessarily realized what you were really up against.
Marc:In the sense that, you know, even like Steve Earle and those guys that, you know, I think early on Steve Earle, in my mind, what he was doing as alt country earlier than probably what you guys were doing has become mainstream country.
Marc:But yet he was still outside.
Marc:He was off the grid.
Marc:And if you're off the fucking grid in that Nashville political situation, where do you land?
Marc:I mean, how do you build an audience?
Guest:Well, for a while, Nashville country was kind of like what Steve Earle was doing back on...
Guest:Yeah, but I don't know if you're, my finger's definitely not on the pulse of this, but I've recently been hip to, what's happening in Nashville country now is it's becoming like hip hop, like real white bread kind of hip hop where these, oh my God, and the product placement, and there's like just a checklist of things you gotta talk about, your truck, your boots, your gun, I mean there's like, you gotta name what brand of beer you drink, what brand of truck you drive, but the songs will be like,
Guest:Driving down the road.
Guest:I mean, they're like straight up hip hop songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And with Def Leppard guitars on them.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They call it bro country.
Guest:But if you go now and check it out, what's happening, it's nightmarish.
Guest:It's like post-apocalyptically bad.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like when you guys were starting out, I never understood what the fuck the problem was with mainstream.
Marc:I guess it wasn't mainstream country, but it always seemed to be that there was some real kind of tension between the established order in Nashville and what was being called all country, which is actually more country than Nashville was producing at that time.
Guest:yeah did you feel that yeah and it's funny now you look back at what nashville was producing at the time and it seems really kind of sweet and tame in comparison but it was just real poppy we've we've we've had a hard time in nashville as a town to play in when like nobody ever thought we'd get airplay on country radio you know that was never even a thing but that's all politics isn't it because the songs are fucking there sure
Guest:They're too much there is the thing.
Guest:I remember when Elektra was trying to push us to rock radio or even AAA, which is kind of the sweeter, milder format.
Guest:I'd have bigwigs at Elektra come to me and say, why does your stuff have to be so sophisticated?
Marc:But what does that mean?
Marc:Minor chords?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:A bridge?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's like you guys go off the chart with that sweet sounding sad chord.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can't you just keep it in the 1-4-5 region where we understand the turnaround?
Marc:No, I think they were talking about the lyrics too.
Guest:I think I was a little too tricky for them.
Marc:Oh, too clever?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What am I going to do, man?
Marc:Well, no, you got to be a poet.
Marc:You can't just all be flat out.
Marc:I mean, there's a lot of great turns of phrases in country music and old country.
Marc:But I mean, you know, if you get a little elaborate or you get a little sophisticated, it's like there people are just driving their trucks.
Marc:They don't want to think.
Guest:Yeah, no, the country world's never one I even thought for a second I could crack.
Marc:I did wish that- But yet you played country music, really, right?
Guest:I know, that's true.
Marc:And you're from Dallas.
Guest:But the alt country thing is something I've thought about a lot because it's been my world for a long time.
Guest:If the Beatles, their very first kind of records that's skiffle stuff, if that came out in our world today, they'd be alt country.
Guest:If Tom Petty's first stuff came out, they'd be alt country.
Guest:Oh, hell yeah, Mystery Man?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Oh, God, there were some great country songs in the first couple Petty records, really.
Guest:Yeah, amazing.
Guest:And the funny thing is now that that's sort of the, everywhere I go, like all the bands I see playing are bands that are basically doing kind of just alt-country, some version of Roots Americana rock.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's awesome.
Guest:Like for when we were doing it in 93 when we started, it was the grunge era, you know.
Guest:And I remember a big part of why we started was Murray and I were doing these rock bands that were so fucking fail, you know.
Guest:You were in them?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was fronting Rats Exploding and Buzz and these terrible, terrible bands.
Guest:What were you playing?
Guest:I was the lead singer, guitar.
Guest:But what was the music, what was he into?
Guest:He played electric guitar, and Murray was in and out of him because he was frustrated by it.
Guest:And my problem was, I'd gotten- But what was the music like?
Guest:It was a lot like what I do now, but instead of swingy, it was real straight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was some mid-tempo swing stuff, but it was a lot of sludgy mid-tempo rockers with kind of clever words or whatever.
Marc:It was what I do.
Marc:Because you're pretty good at a pop hook.
Guest:Were you doing that?
Guest:I thought there were some great pop hooks.
Guest:I didn't have enough experience.
Guest:You like a pop hook.
Guest:Dude, I love it.
Guest:Two and a half minute pop song with a couple of really juicy hooks.
Guest:That's the best thing to me.
Marc:And that's really the model that has fueled radio hits forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But do you feel like you've been looked over?
Guest:That's funny that you ask that.
Guest:I did a thing with Paul F. Tompkins the other day.
Guest:We did a Wits taping.
Guest:Yeah, I'm sure that's fun, yeah.
Guest:Such a great show.
Guest:And right before we walked on stage, I guess he had just come from a radio visit, which he and I- Is that what you call him, a visit?
Guest:A radio visit, exactly.
Guest:A promo obligation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's funny, I think a lot about how comics, like you do a lot of road work.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And Paul does too.
Guest:Your lives are a lot like my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not always on tour with the 97s.
Guest:Really, most of the way I make my money is to go out with two guitars by myself, play a gig.
Guest:So it's a lot like what you do.
Guest:And so I'm sure that you get sent, you got to go to this station and plug the gig.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And you do it.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:It's what it is.
Guest:But so Paul had just done one of those and we're standing side stage in St.
Guest:Paul and he looks over to me and he goes...
Guest:dude, this radio guy just asked me the question that like every other radio interviewer asks me, do they ask you this?
Guest:He goes, a lot of the people that you came up with are really successful now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How does that make you feel?
Yeah.
Marc:and i get that all the time i'm like well you know what like i don't know if i would i don't think i framed it that way no you didn't you didn't yours was but no because you i get that a lot you know do you feel overlooked well yeah overlooked is is is sort of different because it's one of those weird things because no one can deny the power of the music and the talent and and there's plenty of songs that you've done on your own and with the old 97s that are like well how come that's not huge yeah
Marc:And it's overlooked in the sense that sometimes it's just fucking timing.
Marc:Who the fuck knows who makes that decision or why it happens?
Marc:If someone had the equation of how to solve that, we'd all be making a million dollars.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Our tour manager, Mike Dahlke, has this theory.
Guest:He just said it all with that.
Guest:I know.
Marc:if you appear on tv you should get a million dollars right if your face is on that doesn't even matter anymore who the it's impossible to know what's going to make the most a number of people go like what the is that yeah would you what's your tour manager's theory oh mike dolce that's it if you if you appear on tv you should get a million dollars right that's that's how it's supposed to work it's sadly people think they do think that and for years i was on tv a lot and i was i wasn't that was the only money i was making you know you go on letterman as a band what do you guys you maybe you get enough to buy yourself dinner
Guest:No, it's a pretty good payday.
Guest:For bands?
Guest:It's after.
Guest:They have to pay you a certain amount.
Marc:Well, right, but as a band, they pay everybody a certain amount?
Marc:Everybody gets the after minimum?
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:The lead singer gets the most.
Guest:The drummer gets the least.
Guest:It's such a hilarious hierarchy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, of how it works.
Marc:And what about music licensing?
Marc:How does that work?
Guest:It's that thing where every time it airs, ASCAP goes out and beats somebody up and gets money from them.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Marc:Thank God for ASCAP.
Guest:ASCAP's great.
Marc:It's fucking great, man.
Marc:I mean, they have one now for a satellite play for comics called Sound Exchange.
Guest:Are you guys on that?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Yeah, and that's where I get it, and it's like, wow, free money.
Marc:How do I make more money when I'm sleeping?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Well, that's what Tom Waits had, the great line that I think about all the time.
Guest:He was speaking at South by Southwest, and he's kind of in between songs on his piano, and he goes, you know, I got into this business...
Guest:so i could write a song and then say now fly away and go make daddy some money all right so wait let's go back to 94 93 so you and uh you and murray are kicking it around in and out of rock bands oh dude and we were living so wheels off and so shitty we were eating ramen noodles like there was i dropped i had a full scholarship to sarah lawrence college to be a creative writer
Guest:Oh, you went to a fancy high school, right?
Guest:Well, that's what it was.
Guest:I was going to this, skipping back to my grade school years.
Guest:I was in Highland Park with all the rich kids.
Guest:I got beat up because we didn't have a maid.
Marc:You got beat up by rich kids.
Guest:Yeah, I got beat up by rich kids.
Guest:Basically, one, I had a Reading is Fun pin on when I was a fourth grader, and a fifth grader came up to me and said, the principal told me to punch any kid that was wearing that pin and punched me in the face.
Guest:I was like, you know what?
Guest:Fuck this.
Guest:I'm literally getting beat up for being not a dummy.
Marc:For being creative, for being a guy that wants to write and do things cool.
Guest:You were an arty kid.
Guest:Yeah, so I researched other schools.
Guest:I said, fuck this, I'm gonna go to a private school.
Guest:And I found Bard College has Simon's Rock of Bard, this smart kid school up by where I live now in the Hudson Valley.
Guest:And then in Dallas, there's a school called St.
Guest:Mark's.
Guest:And it was an all-boys private school.
Guest:And it's a fucking great school.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:So I went and I just set it up myself.
Guest:I asked my parents, I said, I'm gonna do this, and if I can get into one of these schools, can we figure out how to pay for it?
Guest:And I went to St.
Guest:Mark's, and I remember I was a fourth grader when they interviewed me, I guess summer after my fourth grade year, and I was applying for sixth grade.
Guest:And they said, so what books have you read lately?
Guest:And I said, you know what book I just read that I really loved was Catcher in the Rye.
Guest:And they're like, why are you reading that as a fourth grader?
Guest:And I'm like, I don't know, because it was supposed to be good.
Guest:But I talked about his relationship with his little sister.
Guest:So you're a precocious fourth grader?
Guest:Of course, yeah.
Guest:And so I got into St.
Guest:Mark's.
Guest:And even that, there's still football players everywhere you go.
Marc:Yeah, even if they're not playing football.
Guest:It's a character type.
Guest:And I learned pretty quick that I shouldn't necessarily be playing football.
Guest:It was a moment where they line up in those drills where you're all like, you carry the ball, you tackle him.
Guest:And so the big mean kid that I knew hated my guts, like counted the people and lined up across from me.
Guest:And then when he tackled me, he'd whisper through the ear hole in my helmet, quit the team, faggot.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:And after like the fifth time, I was like, you know what?
Guest:For an idiot, he's giving me pretty good advice.
Guest:I'm out.
Guest:I'm out.
Marc:But I should go back and thank him.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Wherever he works.
Guest:But I had fun at that school.
Guest:That happened at the fancy school?
Guest:Yeah, that was the fancy school.
Guest:So there was a line drawn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I hung out with the weirdos there.
Guest:And then I started doing music.
Guest:At 15, I was doing gigs.
Guest:But what were you doing?
Guest:Primarily writing?
Guest:Were you writing poetry?
Guest:You know, it's funny you ask.
Guest:I was.
Guest:I was the editor.
Guest:We started a literary magazine called The Rag.
Guest:We thought that was so cool.
Guest:Right on, man.
Guest:The Rag.
Guest:And yeah, I wrote a lot of poetry.
Guest:And then I realized that writing poetry is not cool.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:I mean, I think that was when I was in...
Marc:Probably ninth or 10th grade.
Marc:You know, I had an English teacher and we were assigned poems and I wrote poems.
Marc:Everyone wrote poems and, you know, we were going to read them out loud in class.
Marc:And mine were just like gut wrenching.
Marc:And they never, well, they never looked at me the same way.
Marc:They were sort of overly sensitive and talking about how everything's like a fake.
Marc:Well, yeah, that and just sexual frustration and that kind of thing.
Marc:And yeah, I never got looked at the same.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, it's got that power.
Marc:Poetry can alienate, as well as enlighten.
Guest:But if you put some chords under it and sing a melody, it's the same exact thing.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:So I get to secretly be a poet now, and nobody makes fun of me.
Marc:I mean, to my face.
Marc:So you did the rag?
Marc:Did the rag.
Marc:Did all that stuff.
Marc:Did gigs.
Guest:But when did you start writing songs?
Guest:uh 13 so played guitar at 12 quit went back to it because i was like i gotta fucking write songs this is driving me crazy yeah and i was i was pretty tortured you know my my parents were going through there's a line in a robin hitchcock song uh and it rained like a slow divorce it's just such and my parents divorce took 10 years and it was 10 years because your dad's a lawyer well no no it's just because they didn't want to break up
Guest:And they should have, and eventually they did, but you know.
Marc:And you were 13?
Guest:I was seven when it started and 17 when it ended.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:And I'm not blaming them for my, I was just a fucked up kid.
Guest:Fucked up how?
Guest:The world made no sense to me.
Guest:Why is it that the assholes get to win?
Guest:Why is it that I get beat up for reading books?
Guest:They'll call me opera singer and stick my face into a locker, and I'm like, opera singers are fucking cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:None of it seemed fair.
Marc:So you felt alienated, but you weren't driving around breaking things.
Marc:You went inward, or did you drive around breaking things?
Guest:I went inward.
Guest:At 14, I had a suicide attempt that was pretty gnarly that really should have worked.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah, yes, I did.
Marc:And I've made a point not to talk about it much.
Marc:So at 14, at that point, you're right in the rag, you're playing guitar.
Marc:It was the pointlessness of it.
Guest:Like, well, what do you do?
Guest:So you grow up, you try and get a job to get money, to buy a bunch of shit, fill your house with the shit, look at it, dust it.
Guest:Die.
Guest:Like, it just seems so fucking pointless.
Guest:Oh, so the emptiness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You went Nick Drake.
Marc:Existential, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you just went like, you just, you played it out.
Marc:I saw where it was going.
Marc:I saw the end game.
Marc:But you didn't see that, you know, that even though you were making these observations and that you sort of, you enjoyed things that most other people didn't enjoy, there was no hope there because there was no winning.
Guest:Well, at 14, there wasn't.
Guest:But then very quickly thereafter that, I discovered sex with girls.
Guest:Well, how'd you try?
Guest:Oh, the suicide.
Guest:I thought you meant the sex.
Marc:I know how that goes.
Marc:You get the hang of it eventually.
Guest:Yeah, it took a while.
Guest:Well, let's see.
Guest:I basically decided I was going to drink anything with a skull and crossbones on it.
Guest:So I went under the sink in the guest bathroom and I found all these lamp oil fluids, which actually was the thing that ended up saving my life because they're oil-based.
Guest:And even though they're poison, they coated the lining on my stomach.
Guest:And then when I went up to my mom's medicine cabinet...
Guest:and downed every pill in every bottle.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:You had to go room to room.
Marc:It's a moving suicide attempt.
Marc:You just go, what else is there that I can ingest?
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:And then a lot of Valium, which slowed my system down so the toxins couldn't pump through the whole...
Guest:For trying really hard to take all the wrong shit, I took kind of all the right shit to not die.
Guest:Did you go down?
Guest:Did someone find you?
Guest:I did.
Guest:When I realized, I went and sat down in the living room and I was like, okay, now what?
Guest:How long is this going to take?
Guest:And then all of a sudden I realized, oh, this is really happening.
Guest:My legs are numb.
Guest:And something about my legs being numb made me want to run.
Guest:So I ran out the back door and to the railroad tracks a block away.
Guest:And I ran down the railroad tracks to the Knox Henderson little shopping center that was near our house.
Guest:And when I got across the street from on the border, there's a 7-Eleven parking lot.
Guest:And I just went face down in the 7-Eleven parking lot.
Guest:And there was this really beautiful girl named Barry who went to the Arts Magnet High School.
Guest:And Barry... You knew her.
Guest:No, I didn't know her.
Guest:I ended up being friends with her because she saved my life.
Guest:But she saw me go down and she's like, this is not right.
Guest:So she went over and rolled me over and found a number in my wallet that was my girlfriend's phone number.
Marc:You had a girlfriend?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Marc:So there's a lot of things going on.
Marc:Yeah, it was complicated.
Marc:All right, so Barry, what'd she do?
Guest:She called the girlfriend whose dad was a doctor and they came and picked me up and took me to the emergency room.
Guest:Not an ambulance.
Guest:No, I was like, well, you could have just called an ambulance.
Guest:But I think she thought maybe I was just fucked up and she didn't want me to get in more trouble.
Guest:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:So yeah, so I went and they didn't pump my stomach because it would have killed me.
Guest:So they induced vomiting.
Guest:So I guess I was unconscious, but I vomited for hours and then woke up the next morning.
Guest:And that weird thing of surprised to be alive, like, oh shit.
Guest:Didn't work.
Guest:Didn't work.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But then you became friends with Barry.
Guest:Yeah, I became friends.
Guest:I wanted to go out on dates with Barry, but she was older.
Guest:She was like 17.
Marc:She must have came like some sort of unwanted angel.
Marc:She was so hot.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What was going on with the girlfriend that drove you over the edge?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:How much of it had to do with that?
Guest:Well, I know over the years that she has been sensitive to... Because when it happened, it was... All of our friends knew and everybody knew.
Guest:And she and I might have had a fight that day.
Guest:But that was just one piece of... My mom and I had a fight that day.
Guest:The universe and I had a fight that day.
Guest:It sucked.
Guest:But you know what I figured out was... And this is actually one of the other reasons I knew coming in here today that I'd probably wind up saying this.
Guest:I've been working with the Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
Guest:Now.
Guest:Now.
Guest:now just recently and and i think it's it's something nobody fucking talks about because it's so dirty and embarrassing and it see it's so vilified you know it's like oh the most selfish thing you could do well the people that are doing it aren't are thinking about it or trying it aren't thinking about it or trying it because they think fuck you they they think fuck me i'm fucked my world is fucked the world would be better without me
Guest:and that's a horrible thing to think and it's something that you can outlive and I'm not gonna go PSA style on you but it is something I outlived it and within a year I was writing songs and I had my first gig within a year of that and played in front of people and the next thing you knew I had all sorts of reasons to live you know
Marc:Right, well I think also that if it's not necessarily depression driven, but it's driven by the hopelessness that comes from problems at home or like trauma of some kind that where you're just, the discomfort is so intense or the hopelessness is so intense you don't see any point.
Marc:It's definitely a different thing.
Marc:You can grow out of that.
Marc:But people that battle with that listlessness of depression
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I like I have a hard time even picturing it.
Marc:You know what that decision, because when you're in it, the brain's tricky.
Marc:You honestly you think of a whole list of reasons why it makes sense.
Marc:Makes perfect sense because you can't see it ever being any different in that moment.
Marc:Yeah, that's the worst.
Marc:That's a tough thing.
Marc:Well, yeah, but that's also like it's one of those things where, you know, as a sober guy, you know, that when you want to drink, you know, people are like, well, it's going to go away.
Marc:It's going to pass.
Marc:You know, you just wait it out or go to sleep.
Marc:Tomorrow is probably going to be better.
Marc:But if you're locked into something like fuck that, every day is the same.
Marc:You have no ability to see forward or behind you to make any rational decision.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But when you came out of that, I mean, being that type of poet with the one suicide attempt under your belt, that's some cred in a way.
Marc:Yeah, I used it.
Marc:I cashed that card in.
Marc:I got dates.
Guest:I got gigs.
Guest:I got...
Guest:You were emo before emo.
Guest:You were a troubled boy.
Guest:Well, I have thought about that, actually.
Guest:I remember when emo started happening, I'm like, they're just doing what I do, but they have a little less twang.
Guest:There's a lot of those three, four waltzy kind of songs.
Guest:A lot of like, oh shit, the world is full of shit kind of.
Marc:Well, I think that what you're talking about really in relation to the hierarchy of what is mainstream high school at that time, it's just that the kind of kids you were, it's going to be a rough road no matter what.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:of that type of troubled teenager.
Marc:But I think it's always been there.
Marc:But it was just that the paradigm was so set.
Marc:You're either a jock or you're a pussy.
Marc:Oh, especially in Dallas, Texas.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:I'm sure Albuquerque, New Mexico was true.
Marc:We had a lot of Latino influence.
Marc:We had a base.
Marc:The mix there, there was a pretty big black community.
Marc:And I went to a public school.
Marc:So yeah, it was there.
Marc:But it was definitely more diverse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I think that Texas can get pretty white and pretty weird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's definitely class lines and ethnic lines.
Guest:Oh, it's a real segregated town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's tough.
Guest:I'm so glad that I live now in, and nothing against Dallas.
Guest:Dallas has gotten a lot better.
Guest:I've still got family there and tons of friends.
Guest:But I live in New York.
Guest:There's black kids and Mexican kids on my kid's baseball team.
Guest:They're all friends.
Guest:Nobody even talks about it.
Guest:And it's funny.
Guest:My eight-year-old daughter, she'll say, who's your favorite person?
Guest:She'll go,
Guest:Well, it's either Rosa Parks or, you know, and it's just because Rosa Parks is a fucking badass.
Marc:That's why.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think it's sort of fascinating that the tide has turned a little bit for kids who are sensitive and creative because really there was the jocks and then there was the pussies and then there was the math nerds or people that no one knew how to talk to.
Marc:They were just playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Guest:I was that too.
Guest:You were that too?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was not a math nerd, but I did play Dungeons and Dragons.
Guest:One night I was opening for Lords of the New Church at Club Clearview.
Guest:You know, Steve Bader, Kick-Ass, Punk Rock Band, or whatever, goth, proto-goth.
Marc:How old were you this time?
Guest:16.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And then the next night I would be at my friend John Greenman's house in the garage playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Marc:Well, that makes sense, I guess.
Marc:But 16, so you were playing in a band that was good enough?
Guest:No, I was solo.
Guest:I was a teen folky.
Guest:And in Dallas, I got kind of embraced.
Guest:I would open for Red Cross when they came through, Lords of the New Church.
Guest:I opened for Chris Isaac right before Wicked Game broke.
Guest:At 16?
Guest:With my little ovation guitar, my 12-string ovation.
Guest:Round back.
Guest:The shittiest guitar in the world.
Guest:And you were just singing your songs?
Guest:Just singing my little seashell girl keeps fire inside.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So it was kind of like Nick Drake-y in a way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And boy, it's funny.
Guest:I think now, I think back on it, and some of the lyrics on that record I made in high school, I would never write lyrics like this anymore.
Guest:Not because they're bad, but because they're so shocking.
Guest:There's one song, Ryan Miller from Guster has become a friend of mine, but apparently when he was young, he had Mythologies, the record I made in high school, and played some of the songs.
Guest:The first ever Guster gig, apparently they played the song for Truman Capote.
Guest:And there's a line in there that...
Guest:Well, the beer was on the floor.
Guest:His wife was on her knees.
Guest:He was pissing on Christ and she was praying for peace.
Guest:I would never write pissing on Christ in a song anymore.
Guest:And I don't know how I, in high school, it seemed like a great idea and people loved that song.
Marc:Now I feel bad because I don't want to do a disservice to you because I know that you have very passionate and loyal fans.
Marc:So they all know mythologies.
Marc:No, they don't.
Guest:If there's a holy grail of my catalog, that is not on Spotify.
Guest:It's not on iTunes.
Guest:A thousand copies exist.
Guest:When they come up on eBay, they sell for like $350.
Guest:I mean, I've tried to keep it out because, for two reasons, it's a little embarrassing because of all the British accent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, I kind of think it's fun.
Guest:It's so pre, you know, 21st century to have something that's not available.
Guest:It's cool.
Guest:Like how many things are not available anymore?
Guest:So that's okay.
Guest:So that's 89.
Guest:So you're 16.
Guest:Uh, I guess it came out when I was 18.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But still, it was fun, man.
Guest:Those days, cause my parents were going through so much that, and it was kind of a different era.
Guest:Like kids, you know,
Guest:You know, when we were kids, you'd ride away from the house on your bike in the morning and come back at night.
Guest:Nobody fucking asked where you went, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They had their own things going on.
Guest:So as a teenager, my life was a lot like that.
Guest:Like, Mom, I got a gig tonight.
Guest:I'm going to crash at so-and-so's house.
Guest:And there's this artist commune warehouse where people had just art studios and music studios.
Marc:Yeah, those are cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I used to just sleep on the floor of this gallery.
Marc:So really that generates it.
Marc:See, I live the same life in a way that, you know, you're this kid that has these interests, but you're not going to find other people that can really guide you through any of that or show you that it is a lifestyle until you sort of lock in with those older cats.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who are like, you know, living it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when you first meet them, you're like, oh, you can do you can be a grown up and fucking do this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you had them.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I had a great, you know, Murray, for instance, our bass player, was really great.
Guest:How'd he find you?
Guest:He had a girlfriend, Jennifer, and I had a girlfriend, Jennifer, and they were friends with each other, and they said, hey, you like each other.
Guest:So he was dating a younger girl.
Guest:She was a little bit younger than him.
Guest:Because he's seven years older.
Guest:And I was dating an older girl at the time when I was 15.
Guest:Okay, so.
Guest:I always hung out with older people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:Well, why wouldn't you?
Marc:At least you want to be understood, even if it's a little bit condescending.
Marc:Even if they're sort of like, oh, look at the little arty kid.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I didn't mind.
Marc:I'm learning from you fuckers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what were you learning outside of music?
Marc:What was the art scene like there?
Marc:Was there photographers, performance art?
Marc:There was all sorts of weird shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I learned that music was the only way that I could see to make a life out of it.
Guest:Because the rest of it, like I'm not gifted in any kind of visual art sense.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I just think that's tough because you make a painting.
Guest:That painting doesn't do shit.
Guest:It just sits there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One person buys it one time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, if I do a song, I can play it every night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can put it on a record.
Guest:I can sell it.
Guest:So it just seemed like an easier commodity to try and negotiate.
Guest:So you knew that.
Guest:So I knew that.
Guest:But I did like all the weirdos and the artists and the stray cats that lived around me.
Guest:They used to follow me around.
Guest:I would just walk around.
Guest:It's great, man.
Marc:It's great to know that there is an alternate reality to to the mainstream idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and that in it's much more interesting.
Guest:I just went back and spoke to the kids at St.
Guest:Mark's School, my alma mater.
Guest:And I've done this before over the years.
Guest:I had my 20th whatever reunion.
Guest:That was fucked up.
Guest:But I've done it over the years where I'll go back and try and pick the five or six songs that are the least inappropriate for me to sing for these.
Guest:the middle school and the upper school.
Guest:But I went back this time and I decided I'm gonna give them a speech.
Guest:I'm gonna sing a couple of songs and then I'm gonna give them a speech because since I left the school's become way more sort of business oriented and it's driving kids specifically into hedge funds and that kind of stuff.
Guest:Which is fine, I get it, you gotta make money.
Guest:So I gave a speech about there is a possibility of a life in the arts.
Guest:You probably have to give up the idea of being really wealthy.
Guest:But you can make enough of a living to have a family and a house.
Guest:And what you're doing and you have to ask yourself is giving up the money is the sacrifice of that worth getting to fucking make something beautiful and give it to the world because you're making the world a better place.
Guest:What you do is making the world a better place.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Marc:I don't know if I ever really thought about that because it's hard to know.
Marc:Because I always assume, like I've said before, that I think music is sort of magic and it sort of replenishes itself.
Marc:It doesn't lose its magic.
Marc:It really just doesn't.
Marc:Like once something is laid down, once a song exists in the world,
Marc:You can go back to it at different points in your life and either get something new out of it or get exactly what you got out of it the first time.
Marc:That it will connect with something fundamental to your soul or to your heart.
Marc:And it will always be there.
Marc:And if it wears out, you don't listen to it for a while.
Marc:And then eventually you're like, I want to hear that song.
Marc:And you're like, holy fuck, it still works.
Marc:That's an amazing thing to me.
Marc:And then when you think about it as a gift...
Marc:It definitely is.
Marc:It definitely is something that makes the world a better place.
Marc:And you can't deny that about art.
Marc:I don't know why I'm just thinking about that now, because if you like even when I think about artists that that don't resonate or don't get as big as as other artists or whatever, there is that moment in your life where you experience that and it does something to your brain that's going to shift you in the direction of freedom and a better place than than the other way.
Marc:It's art versus an empty existence.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that was where I came out the other side with the suicide thing.
Guest:This is what it's all about, filling up the world with beauty.
Guest:Rainn Wilson's become a friend over the years, and he's a Baha'i faith guy.
Guest:Which actually kind of is cool.
Guest:It is cool.
Guest:I'm not a religious guy.
Marc:Yeah, they kind of mix it up.
Guest:Yeah, but one thing that he said that I really, really liked was the creation of art, the act of creation is prayer.
Guest:That is the holiest thing you can do because you're acknowledging something bigger.
Guest:Because the most cynical thing you can do is just sit on a couch and do nothing and just be a vessel filled up with whatever.
Guest:Or just work.
Guest:Or just work.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Work for for the empty payoff of I don't think security and a sense of well-being is necessarily empty.
Marc:And certainly there's a lot of people that struggle to even have that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but to sort of, you know, not have any definition that nourishes your spirit.
Marc:You know, in this process of working is a disaster.
Marc:And I just I don't like the sort of like, well, I have an empty job so I can have enough money to retire with.
Marc:And on weekends, I go on the boat.
Marc:I'm not begrudging that.
Marc:And I and I and there's part of me that envies people that accept that is like an OK life, you know, in that, you know, what?
Marc:But it's not for everybody.
Marc:The art thing.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Just isn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some people weren't meant to do it.
Guest:And they're okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's what I was saying to the kids.
Guest:It's like, obviously, most of you guys are going to do the kind of stuff your parents do and make a lot of money, and that'll be great.
Guest:But there are some kids in here that are maybe meant to do art or music or whatever.
Guest:And you're like, you know who you are.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But they're scared shitless because it's fucking scary.
Marc:And their parents are like a lot of times parents who are who don't want kids to do that.
Marc:It's only out of fear of their future.
Marc:Yeah, it's there's very few parents that are like art sucks.
Marc:Don't be a pussy.
Marc:They exist.
Marc:And I'm sure that they're, you know, your parents weren't like that, though, were they?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, but they exist, but that's a different problem.
Marc:The people I've talked to who are creative people, if their parents resisted, it was usually because they were afraid for their future.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:And when I dropped out of college, my parents said, whatever little money we have, you don't get it because you gave up a $100,000 scholarship to...
Guest:a great college and now you've got no fallback plan.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I was like, that's the whole point.
Guest:I don't want a degree that I can fall back on because then I'll do it because it's way easier.
Guest:And so for 10 years, I fucking ate ramen noodles.
Guest:Did you go through that?
Guest:Did you go through the real squalor?
Marc:Like just the...
Marc:Well, my parents were relatively supportive, but once I started doing comedy, I was very stubborn about taking money unless I really was in trouble.
Marc:So, yeah, I lived on the Lower East Side, but I really tried to earn my own money, but I was not ever completely cut off.
Marc:So it was squalor of a different kind.
Marc:It was squalor in the sense that I didn't know how I was going to make it, but I never really thought about it.
Marc:But that's a good thing, right?
Guest:Because it made you have to fucking get out there and work and get better.
Marc:Yeah, but I never thought of doing anything.
Marc:I never practically thought of doing anything else.
Marc:After a certain point, either you're compelled and possessed by it, but there was never really a functional plan B other than go back to school for something vague.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:That was always the thing.
Marc:I could go back to school.
Marc:You barely were there the first time.
Marc:You did okay, but what do you think is going to happen?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So you drop out.
Marc:What were you studying?
Marc:What was this?
Guest:It was creative writing I was there for.
Marc:Yeah, but why would they cut you off if that was your... I mean, there was no big...
Marc:pay off to creative writing.
Marc:Well, a college degree would, you know, at least... It still held a certain amount of esteem then.
Marc:I know, right?
Marc:Yeah, not anymore.
Marc:So you drop out what?
Marc:After what year?
Marc:After one semester.
Marc:One semester?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was...
Marc:Were you depressed again or not?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I had a great semester.
Guest:I had two girlfriends who were incredibly awesome, one of whom I was still really great friends with.
Guest:All my friends were seniors was the funny thing.
Guest:Again, I was only hanging out with the older kids.
Guest:You seem like kind of a girl's guy.
Marc:You seem like a guy that girls are going like, come here, let me take care of you.
Marc:I guess I've never suffered in that regard.
Marc:Poor you and your ramen noodles and pussy.
Marc:Well, I find that about you.
Marc:I notice that about the old 97s even, and primarily I think you, is that you somehow amass this following of sort of groovy, alty chicks, and they've sort of stayed with you.
Marc:I imagine at this point that you have like 45-year-old women that have been watching you since they were 23.
Guest:Fortunately, the fan base does sort of regenerate.
Guest:The weirdest way that it does is those 45-year-old women that you mentioned will bring their 20
Guest:two-year-old daughter that that's when it gets a little weird yeah but um but yeah yeah it's it's sweet it's all right i had some one a manager friend of mine said once the whole 97's records are for the dudes your solo records are for the chicks is that true uh and not not intentionally it's all
Guest:isn't it yeah yeah i guess kind of rock and roll in general that's the whole point of rock and roll that's why there's on the new record there's a song called let's get drunk and get it on and when i brought it around a bunch of people were like are you serious you can't just say that i'm like are you fucking kidding that's what every single song i've ever written basically said in so many words right right yeah yeah yeah fuck me i mean yeah that's the whole point of rock and roll
Marc:but you know you gotta be sweet you know yeah i mean i think a lot of your lyrics speak to a vulnerability that that is not that aggressive maybe that's what they were concerned about oh yeah definitely what are you some drunk monster oh but the song is really sweet it's a it's a total love song it just happens to put it all you know on that yeah yeah yeah
Marc:Well, all right, so let's get back to this country idea.
Marc:So, you know, you leave college and you are a folk singer to some degree or at least a solo pop song writer.
Marc:I mean, what was the thing that brought you guys into deciding that that was your mode?
Marc:Because, I mean, the old 97s, you know, it's a country band, really.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Murray was living in D.C.
Guest:when I was going to Sarah Lawrence, and he would come up on weekends, and we would play, and I'd go down to the city and play.
Guest:CBGB's was open at the time, and I used to play at the cantina.
Guest:The place next to it.
Guest:The next to it.
Guest:And so I'd do every Friday night, I'd be on the bill at the cantina.
Guest:go back up to the thing.
Guest:But I was really just jonesing because I was used to doing music.
Guest:I was doing four gigs a week before I went off to college.
Guest:And so to be doing just one little 30-minute set a week was freaking me out.
Guest:And Murray would come up and play.
Guest:We'd hang out and play.
Guest:And so he was like, dude, you got to drop out.
Guest:You got to drop out.
Guest:So he goes, come on, drop out.
Guest:We'll go back to Dallas.
Guest:We'll start a band together.
Guest:So went back to Dallas, started a band called Sleepy Heroes, which was really fun.
Guest:But it was...
Guest:You know, I've never been a great marketer.
Guest:Like the word old, for instance, is apparently anathema to marketing.
Guest:So, you know, we started this band.
Guest:It was a three piece.
Guest:I played a 12 string Rickenbacker.
Guest:Murray played bass, which wound up being sort of the only lead instrument.
Guest:It just wasn't going to happen.
Guest:I remember there was a band around that time called Material Issue.
Guest:I love them.
Guest:They were great, right?
Guest:Came in the Waitress.
Marc:I loved them.
Guest:So good.
Guest:That guy, I think, killed himself.
Guest:He did kill himself.
Guest:But they were a three-piece.
Guest:I think he played a bunch of 12-string.
Guest:And so it was possible that that format could have worked at that time for a minute.
Guest:But we weren't executing it that well.
Marc:The world wasn't ready for that in general.
Marc:I mean, I don't think it really worked for them.
Marc:I mean, it was pretty limited still.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that band broke up the day that the box of records came back from the manufacturer, CDs, for whatever reason.
Guest:Our drummer, whatever.
Guest:Here they are.
Guest:What do we do with them?
Guest:Again, just self-defeating.
Guest:So we broke up, and then I went through a series of bands.
Guest:Oh, God, it got complicated.
Guest:Like, Murray and I had a falling out briefly where we had entered a battle of the bands at the Hard Rock Cafe.
Guest:We won the first round, and we were going to go to the finals.
Guest:And between the first round and the finals, Murray and I had a fight.
Guest:Over what?
Yeah.
Guest:I was upset because he wasn't... I'm gonna get in so much trouble for saying this, Mark.
Guest:By who?
Guest:By Murray!
Guest:Because his mic technique was bumming me out.
Guest:He wouldn't sing into the microphone enough, and then he couldn't hear himself enough, and then his harmonies would be off key.
Guest:And I sort of tried to do an intervention to get him to...
Guest:Oh, he's going to be so mad.
Marc:How long ago was that?
Marc:Literally over 20 years ago.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:He's not going to get mad.
Marc:He's not allowed to get mad.
Marc:You guys have got to be beyond that.
Guest:I love you, Murray.
Guest:But it was stupid.
Guest:It was just a dumb fight.
Guest:And so he quit the band, and then I brought in a fill-in bass player to do the finals, because there was like $5,000 worth of gear if you won, which we did.
Guest:And Murray came and sat in the balcony and got drunk and watched this and was all mad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there's a couple of crazy years between Sleepy Heroes and the old 97s where I was trying different bands.
Guest:And I had this one band called Buzz that was just a piece of shit.
Guest:And I had a band called Rhett's Exploding.
Guest:Why is that a good band?
Guest:Who thinks that's a good band name?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:You did, clearly.
Guest:yeah yeah i think murray thought of that band name though but so so these bands were um like i said before sludgy mid-tempo rock yeah and and they were kind of trying to be what nirvana ended up being which is this distorted guitar with real pop hooky yeah things happening and there was one night murray and i were roommates in the shithole apartment marquita courts in dallas it was the night nirvana did snl yeah and we watched that and i remember we looked at each other and went we gotta fucking stop
Guest:We're never going to be as good as them.
Guest:And they're doing it.
Guest:This is already happening.
Guest:And we're trying to do something that's not even coming naturally to us.
Guest:And so we took like six months off and we didn't do shit.
Guest:And we were both listening kind of obsessively to Hank Williams.
Guest:Just to feel better.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Just because it was so pure.
Guest:Those songs, they crystallize what I love about music.
Guest:The hooks and the sentiment and the kind of honest, raw emotion and the simplicity of it.
Guest:So we came together one day and we said, you know what?
Guest:Let's do this.
Guest:Let's do... And originally we said no drummer.
Guest:Let's just do something that's coffee shop based where we can play songs like the kind we really like where it doesn't stand a chance of... Because the rock bands we were doing, the whole point was to try and get fucking signed because this was a different era.
Guest:But so did the A&R guys seek you out after Mythologies or no?
Guest:They would come around every once in a while, but they'd come and go, how can you do a band with no lead guitar?
Guest:You know, about Sleepy Heroes.
Guest:Where's the band?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when we would...
Guest:It just never worked.
Guest:It never clicked.
Guest:And you know why?
Guest:Because it was fucking disingenuous.
Guest:Because we were calculating what the world wanted and then trying to give that to them.
Guest:And it was bullshit because people smell that.
Guest:So when we did old 97s, the whole idea was, let's do a band that has no fucking chance of ever being popular or getting signed.
Guest:It'll make us happy.
Guest:And of course, ironically, because it was what we were sort of meant to do.
Guest:And people started liking it.
Marc:Yeah, and a lot of people like it.
Marc:You've built a pretty good audience.
Marc:They sustain you, don't they?
Marc:They still come around, and it's the kind of music that doesn't really date itself.
Guest:Well, that was calculated.
Guest:We were like, if we do this, it's just real, and we can do this for fucking ever, and look at Willie Nelson.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Really, honestly, that's only ever been my goal, to be the next Willie Nelson, or the next Christopherson, maybe.
Marc:Right, but you don't seem to be living that life.
Marc:I mean, you seem like you're in pretty good shape.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, Willie's all right.
Guest:Willie still gets out.
Marc:No, no, but I mean, like, you know, it's a notoriously hard life.
Marc:I mean, Chris, they all kind of beat themselves up at one time.
Guest:Yeah, but I think that maybe was more a product of that time.
Guest:Back then, everybody was doing tons of Coke.
Guest:Drinking.
Guest:Although that was a really early on a decision that I made.
Guest:I did not.
Guest:I saw the people doing blow.
Guest:And in my early 20s, I tried it some because I was working at a restaurant here and there between.
Guest:That's where you try blow at a restaurant.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Crazy chefs.
Guest:yeah yeah the guy who hangs around that has it there's always somebody that had it and then but i just realized uh i would look at the guy that had it and i'd be like do i want to be that guy when i'm 40 fuck no man yeah so that was an early decision in the band i was like we're not nobody nobody do blow you can smoke however much weed you want you can drink just and no smack no blow good so no one got strung out nobody thank god not in the old nice heavens and that's why that's why people bring their daughters to see you well 20 years later yeah
Guest:Well, it's so funny.
Guest:You're saying that so it sustains me.
Guest:Not only does it sustain me, but like this record we just put out is the biggest record we've ever put out.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:You know, we had our highest chart position.
Guest:We're selling out venues that we'd never sold out before.
Guest:20 years in.
Marc:It only took 20 fucking years.
Marc:That's all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You still look good.
Marc:You just hurt your knee.
Marc:You'll get over the knee.
Marc:Because the record, it rocks.
Marc:It feels good.
Marc:And the first song is a nice, long song.
Marc:It's a meditation on a life in rock and roll.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that guitar, is that you up front on that thing?
Guest:The acoustic is me.
Guest:Oh, who's on that electric?
Guest:That's Ken.
Guest:Ken's the... That's a filthy sounding guitar.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:Yeah, he's like the defining sound of our band.
Guest:I mean, as much as Murray's Ooze and My Whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ken's weird surf, his caveman guitars.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's like, and it seems real autobiographical.
Marc:It seems like, you know, I think what's happening is that there's a wisdom to it now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you guys, you still seem to get along.
Marc:You still put out good music.
Marc:You can do your solo albums, and people love those.
Marc:But then when you guys all come together, you're pros, and you can speak from a place of fucking earned wisdom.
Guest:And it took 20 years for me to, because I always, I don't maybe, I know just from my interactions with you and what I've heard of your stuff, that you...
Guest:um battle with that like self-worth like do i belong here am i good enough for that anxiety right i always suffered from that like like you know like i'd meet somebody famous i'd be like oh god they don't want to talk to me why would they want to fucking talk yeah i'm not in their league and yeah yeah yeah i yeah i saw the episode the ray romano episode of that that's so fucking funny but it's i've always kind of felt like that oh thanks for inviting me you know yeah yeah you know and oh stop it red you sound like an idiot yeah
Marc:But the weird thing about that disposition is what is gonna change that?
Marc:What kind of input are you gonna get?
Marc:If people really love you, they're gonna be feeling the same thing, like I'm just gonna be cool, it's Rhett Miller, and I'm not gonna ooze.
Marc:But a lot of people are like, you're fucking great.
Marc:And you never believe them when they say that, especially if Willie Nelson said, I love your stuff, you're like, thanks for being nice.
Marc:So it's all an internal dialogue.
Guest:But it took this long.
Guest:And now I don't really have that.
Guest:I mean, it's still something I'll always battle with.
Guest:But I don't have that.
Guest:Like, I don't belong here.
Guest:I suck.
Guest:I'm not good enough.
Guest:And it took me fucking forever to get over that.
Marc:And that's this record.
Guest:Yeah, that's this record.
Marc:Well, there you go.
Guest:Boom.
Marc:You don't give a fuck anymore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Finally.
Marc:Finally.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:So when you worked with John Bryan, because I'm still sort of fascinated with the idea.
Marc:Because when you look at...
Marc:I guess a good comparison would be the breakup of Uncle Tupelo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In a sense that, you know, what happened between Jay and Jeff, you know, Jeff had sort of loftier pop aspirations and Jay was, you know, a country rock guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they couldn't survive it.
Marc:So as a band.
Marc:So what seems that you're able to do is you have, you know, the old 97s, which does your songs.
Marc:And you guys do have pop elements off, obviously, but you're grounded and rooted in that sound, the traditional sound.
Marc:And you can go do your pop records.
Marc:And there's no big tension there.
Guest:First, it was weird.
Guest:We had just done Satellite Rides, which was our last record for Elektra.
Guest:And it was 99, 2000, and the whole business was changing.
Guest:It was when it kind of imploded.
Guest:Elektra Records was about to fold.
Guest:Elektra picked up the option for me to do a solo record, but not for the next 97's record.
Guest:And that fact alone was weird.
Guest:Created a lot of tension.
Guest:And then I went off and did a record that had a... I mean, do you remember back then the record budgets were... That was like a $350,000 record.
Guest:Who fucking needs $350,000 to make a record?
Guest:I mean, John Bryan and I spent every penny of it.
Guest:We locked out the studio, NRG Studios for like four months.
Guest:We brought in Jim Keltner and Josh Freeze and like the greatest musicians in the world.
Guest:And we would spend whole days trying to find a guitar tone for like one solo.
Guest:Did you like that?
Guest:I had never known anything like that before.
Guest:I'd only made records with the 97s, which tended to be much quicker, more live kind of affairs.
Guest:It was really fun.
Guest:I mean, watching John Bryan work and getting paid to watch him work, it's awesome.
Guest:And it was a great experience.
Marc:I've never been in a studio like some of the...
Marc:Trapper Chef in the Shades.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm friends with those guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They asked me to play on a song and what's his name was producing it.
Marc:You know, the guy.
Marc:Brandon Minson.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:But I'd never experienced any of that.
Marc:You know, the type of kind of like finessing that you can do down to a note.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:If you want.
Marc:I was like, holy fuck.
Marc:This is a real job.
Marc:I've been here all day.
Marc:You know, I thought I knocked this all out, you know, an hour ago.
Marc:I thought I nailed that rhythm.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:But yeah, I mean, it's a whole other world, that shit.
Marc:It ain't just playing with your friends.
Guest:No, but now, there was a time, back when that record got made, we had a guy on staff whose job was to go home every night and comp things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is to compile different performances into the perfect Frankenstein monster performance.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is now so par for the course and accepted that I feel like it's kind of sucked a lot of the fun and humanity out of music because everything is so perfectly comped.
Guest:Back then, you had to have a full-time guy to do that.
Guest:Now, people can just comp so quickly.
Guest:The technology has made it so much easier, which is good and bad.
Marc:Well, what did you take away from that in terms of your music of working with a guy who is sort of a genius like John Bryan?
Marc:I mean, in that experience, how did that affect the future of what you do?
Marc:Well, I learned to play diminished chords for one thing.
Marc:Basic guitar stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a really inspiring guy because it's always about just following your instinct.
Guest:Like for him, his instincts involve seeing, I think, really seeing the architecture of the music as it's unfolding in front of like the next five seconds and five minutes are all unfolded in his mind and he knows where he's going and what he's doing.
Guest:But it's really about trusting your instincts and not settling for, well, that was good enough, I guess.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And John would never do, he would never be like, that's good enough.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That's the same with, what's his name?
Marc:Brennan Benson.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Same thing.
Marc:Like they're possessed.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they both can pull it off.
Marc:And they have a vision, obviously.
Marc:I mean, that's right.
Marc:It's trusting your instincts, which is not something you and I do naturally.
Yeah.
Guest:No, but it's ironic because you and I both do jobs where you have to do that.
Guest:You have to make immediate decisions.
Guest:Right, but you fake it a lot.
Guest:Now, a lot of those things are reactive, so you're not really thinking it.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And I've heard you say stuff where you'll fall, like, I'll go to this routine if so-and-so's happening.
Guest:I remember David Cross opened for me a million years ago at the Fez, the Underground Cafe in New York.
Guest:In New York, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Such a great room.
Guest:It was my old favorite room.
Guest:And it was just a goof.
Guest:I was like, hey, do you want to come do a set opening?
Guest:And he's like...
Guest:Yeah, fine, fuck it.
Guest:I just got off this college tour.
Guest:And so he tried out a bunch of material that was like, not even material.
Guest:Like he just walked up there and was like.
Guest:And it was an audience that didn't really understand who he was, I don't think.
Guest:And he was kind of bombing.
Guest:And I saw it.
Guest:He knows how to bomb.
Guest:And I saw it in his face where he was like, fuck you people.
Guest:And he went into his most killer A routine.
Guest:And yeah, he slayed.
Guest:And he walked off stage to just people going ape shit.
Guest:But I could see it in his face like, fuck this.
Guest:I'm going to do the heat.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:There's that moment where we're like, all right, bring it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I talked to those guys, the guys in Blues Traveler, which was interesting because they come out of that whole jam band world.
Marc:And it was like they knew the one thing that I got out of that
Marc:Was that like, don't shoot your load too early.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Save the big song for the end.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Or even the build of a song.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or even if you're going to play some lead, make sure you save the big stuff for the end.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:I wrote a song.
Guest:The one co-write on the new record is with this guy in Nashville, this funny old songwriter named John McElroy that I got put together randomly with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I saw him in Nashville.
Guest:We played the other night.
Guest:And we'd written this song together.
Guest:And he's really proud, it turns out, of the song.
Guest:And he plays it for people.
Guest:He's like, if Dylan came over to my house, this is the song I'd play him.
Guest:And we had fun writing.
Guest:We got fucking wasted at 10 in the morning.
Guest:And his house full of ferrets and weird animals.
Guest:But when I walked into his house, he said, I've been looking you up on YouTube.
Guest:And I think your audience would appreciate it if you walk up to the mic and said, fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so he had this idea for a chorus, and the chorus was, who'd I gotta blow to get in this fucking show?
Guest:It's dark in there, I know, and I got nowhere else to go.
Guest:And so together we came up with this story about, you know, I married Caroline, this whole story about this guy who just fucks up his world, fucks up and makes a mistake.
Guest:And so in the first verse of the version that we recorded, he said, um, I married Caroline back in May of 99.
Guest:It was fucked up at the time, but I figured we'd keep trying.
Guest:And so he goes, you know, the one thing I wish we had changed is I wish we had, because in the second verse, it's, um, uh,
Guest:wake up from this motherfucking dream so there's a big motherfucking that happens yeah and then it goes into the chorus with who'd I gotta blow yeah so he's like the one thing I wish we had done is saved the fuck till the set till when the motherfucking happens because it's like you shoot your watch too early with the fuck in the first verse yeah but I did I I sort of disagree because I'm feeling like fuck it this is the song where I get to say fuck I'm saying fuck every chance I get right
Marc:Well, that's interesting, though.
Marc:That's the songwriter instinct.
Marc:It's an entertainer's instinct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you want to play a song?
Marc:I would love to.
Guest:I guess I'll play Nashville since we talked about it.
Okay.
Guest:Well, I married Caroline back in May of 99.
Guest:Was fucked up at the time, but I figured we'd keep trying.
Guest:Her brother and her dad, they were spitting mad when I packed up what I had.
Guest:Took off running, it was bad.
Guest:It was mean, I didn't care.
Guest:And it's gotten me nowhere, so I'm trying to be a better man.
Guest:I turned left turns into right Turned sunshine into night Got my ass kicked every fight No, I couldn't get it right I built castles out of sand I couldn't understand Why everything I planned Ran like whiskey off my hands And my hands were never clean
Guest:things I wished I'd never seen.
Guest:I'd do anything to wake up from this motherfucking dream.
Guest:Dude, I got the flow to get in this fucking show.
Guest:It's dark in there, I know, and I got nowhere else to go.
Guest:I need a place to hide, so I'll put away my pride.
Guest:Come inside, because I'm tired of running.
Guest:And there's a universe that's floating out in space And I look up there and I can't find my face And I'm seeing my reflection backstage
Guest:writing down the same old words on the same old page.
Guest:Hoot, I got the flow to get in this fucking show.
Guest:It's dark in there, I know, and I got nowhere else to go.
Guest:I need a place to hide, so I'll put away my pride and come inside because I'm tired of running.
Guest:Yeah, I said, hoot, I got the flow to get in this fucking show.
Guest:It's dark in there, I know, and I got nowhere else to go.
Guest:I need a place to hide, so I'll put away my pride and come inside because I'm tired of running.
Guest:And come inside cause I'm tired of running And come inside cause I'm tired of running
Marc:yeah god damn that guitar sounds so full nice gibson j200 it's unbelievable i play this little j45 but that thing's just full that's great well thanks man it was great talking to you it was so great being you know you've always been so nice and kind to me when we've run into each other and i'm honored and you know what i'm really proud of all your kick-ass success oh thank you you too man i'm glad the fear is gone yeah
Marc:See, that was a fun chat, wasn't it?
Marc:That guy's a good guy.
Marc:Good song.
Marc:Go to WTF.com for all your WTF needs.
Marc:We got the merch in there.
Marc:That's a Stratocaster.
Marc:That's that Strat sound, man.
Marc:Am I right?
Thank you.
.
Guest:.
Marc:Little loose, little loose.
Marc:Um, really.
Marc:Happy Thanksgiving.
Marc:And I like this sound a little better.
Marc:Boomer lives!