Episode 553 - Julia Sweeney
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck nuggets?
Marc:What the grudge fuckers?
Marc:And what the fucking knots?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Mark Maron here.
Marc:Nice to see you.
Marc:Glad to be here.
Marc:Hey, between us, this is not on Twitter yet.
Marc:Brian Jones mugs are back.
Marc:They're up now.
Marc:BrianRJones.com.
Marc:Go get the hand-thrown, very unique WTF guest swag mug.
Marc:This mug was only made available by me giving it to people, to guests on the show, and then Brian does them in small batches, very small, usually of about 50, so they go.
Marc:I promised you guys I would talk about it before I tweeted it, so I'm telling you about it.
Marc:I can't guarantee it'll be there.
Marc:The guy can only do so much.
Marc:He's one man.
Marc:He's one man with a wheel.
Marc:Julia Sweeney is on the show today.
Marc:It's very nice of her to come by.
Marc:She doesn't come out this way very often.
Marc:I believe she's up in the Chicago area.
Marc:But it was amazing to talk to her.
Marc:I just what a great person, an amazing talent.
Marc:And now she's we're all grown up, folks.
Marc:We're growing up and that's going to become very apparent, as you know.
Marc:It happens to everybody if you're lucky.
Marc:If you're one of the lucky ones, you get to watch yourself get old.
Marc:Yay.
Marc:But, you know, you take care of yourself.
Marc:Eat right.
Marc:Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at.
Marc:I know it's Thanksgiving.
Marc:Thanksgiving is coming up Thursday.
Marc:I will give my Thanksgiving pep talk on Thursday.
Marc:I will reserve that for then.
Marc:Me, I was not going to go to Florida.
Marc:I was not going to go.
Marc:I believe I'm going.
Marc:I'm going to leave it a little cryptic.
Marc:I'm going to go.
Marc:You know, I'm going to go see my mommy.
Marc:We're heading into it, folks.
Marc:We're heading into food.
Marc:We're heading into shame.
Marc:We're heading into food shame.
Marc:We're heading into family shame.
Marc:We're heading into the reality that people we haven't seen in maybe a year or another year older, people are getting fragile.
Marc:People are going through shit.
Marc:There's all the old tapes that are going to be reactivated.
Marc:You're going to get home and your parents or your mom or your brother, whoever the fuck it is, is going to push play on the shit tape that defines your childhood.
Marc:Got to fight against that.
Marc:Like I said, I don't want to get into it.
Marc:Let's stick with food.
Marc:What are you cooking?
Marc:What do you got going?
Marc:What's your job?
Marc:Are you in control?
Marc:Are you in charge?
Marc:Are you the one making the thing?
Marc:Are you making one thing?
Marc:Are you making a few things?
Marc:I thought it was important today that we're going to have Thanksgiving on Thursday that maybe we should have a little food talk.
Marc:It would be a nice idea to have a little food talk.
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:So on the show today, we're going to have a little food talk.
Marc:And when it comes to bringing in someone to talk about food, there are a few reasons why Dan Pashman was the best choice, folks.
Marc:For one...
Marc:It's what he does now.
Marc:He's the host of WNYC's food podcast, a sporkful and the author of the new book, Eat More Better, How to Make Every Bite More Delicious, but also people.
Marc:Dan has been getting in my face with his opinions about food and other things for more than a decade.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Dan worked with me on my old air America gig on the morning sedition show.
Marc:And we used to argue on the air about food all the time, all the time.
Marc:In fact, during this talk with Pashman, you'll hear one of those arguments that we had on morning sedition and listening back at it.
Marc:I think I need to start taking a little more credit for setting Pashman on his current career path.
Marc:Pashman's one of those guys with opinions about little things that you don't think you have opinions about, but when somebody like Pashman provokes you, all of a sudden you do have an opinion about it, and you'll defend that opinion, even if you're halfway into that opinion, and you realize you don't give a shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you had that happen where you lose steam mid opinion?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, nothing worse than losing steam mid opinion.
Marc:You just react to someone's bullshit and you're like, oh yeah, I got some bullshit to counter that.
Marc:And then about midway through, you're like, wow, this really is bullshit.
Marc:And I don't care one way or the other, but I guess I got to ride it out and take the hit or maybe he'll fucking buckle.
Marc:Maybe he'll buckle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I used to be that guy.
Marc:I try not to.
Marc:I argue about only very specific things, but Dan will get my ire up.
Marc:Dan Pashman.
Marc:How are you, Dan?
Marc:I'm doing great.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:It's nice to see you.
Marc:I think I should give some background to our relationship.
Marc:Dan Pashman was, what was your title?
Marc:I believe, associate producer?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:A long time ago.
Marc:When I first started doing radio in 2004, being totally green with no experience whatsoever, Dan Pashman and my business partner and producer, Brendan McDonald, were two young guns radio producers at Air America.
Marc:We were all working under a guy who had no experience whatsoever in radio.
Marc:I think that wasn't... I think Jonathan Larson, I think he was the producer, but Brendan was the only guy that had the radio experience, or did you too?
Guest:I had a little bit of radio experience.
Marc:And you had a flat top.
Marc:I couldn't understand how you and Brendan looked so fucking conservative, like you were sporting the full-on Haldeman.
Marc:You had the full... It wasn't like a crew cut.
Marc:You had the classic flat top.
Marc:And I was like, who the fuck is this guy?
Guest:Yeah, you were all shaggy.
Guest:You were rocking the faux hawk back then.
Marc:Was I?
Marc:Oh, you had a faux hawk.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:But anyway, so we were there at all hours of the night.
Marc:I remember that was that moment, I think, that Brendan, when you came in, you used to put together all the news stories for the day.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that first week, you came in and dropped them on my desk.
Marc:And I was like-
Marc:I can't do this.
Marc:How are we going to cover all this?
Marc:Like, I had no idea that you weren't giving them to me to cover everything.
Guest:That was the early system.
Guest:I actually had to print out like 500 news articles, punch holes in them, put them in a binder and give them to you and the other hosts.
Guest:And I can imagine that it would seem overwhelming.
Marc:But now, years later, you've followed my lead.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I'm going to say that.
Marc:You can say it.
Marc:You have a podcast called The Sporkful, which got popular.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Somehow?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:miracle of miracles by some miracle and uh you had me on there early on and rachel maddow and the angle was you're going to talk about eating food that's right you're you have no real credentials well i'm good at eating food i know that's it you're not you're not even like a food critic or anything nope
Marc:Well, we're doing this like it is Thanksgiving time.
Marc:So I think that this is a good time to talk about this.
Marc:I mean, your book is called Eat More Better, How to Make Every Bite More Delicious.
Marc:This is you're a guy.
Marc:This is all you got, apparently.
Guest:It's true, but the funny thing about it is that I honestly did start a podcast.
Guest:I mean, you did have a lot to do with it directly and indirectly because the big reason why I started a podcast was that I worked on two radio shows in particular that I poured my heart and soul into, and they both got canceled.
Guest:One of them was Morning Sedition.
Guest:The other was the Brian Park Project at NPR.
Guest:And in both cases...
Guest:You know, like it's a terrible feeling to work so hard on something and then feel like it's been taken away from you.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It made me sad.
Guest:And so I figured if I have my own podcast, at least I'm the only one who can cancel it.
Marc:Well, you know, the funny thing is I think that here's the thing about you.
Marc:And we don't really have a problem because I understand who you are and you understand who I am.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you get committed to ideas about bullshit.
Yeah.
Marc:That were just unshakable.
Marc:Right now I'm getting a little weird anger rush.
Marc:Like thinking back about our argument about the Black Crows and the Rolling Stones.
Guest:No, it was the Black Crows and the faces.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I have to say, I think I've come around to your point of view.
Guest:The faces are better than the Black Crows.
Guest:Oh my God!
Guest:Of course they are, you dummy.
Marc:But when we were younger, when you were younger, you're like, I don't know why you old guys get hung up on these guys.
Marc:They just, you're like, they do it better.
Marc:I'm like, what are you talking about?
Marc:But we'd argue for hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it would be about almost anything.
Marc:You were just the kind of person that would, like, I would argue with you just because I could.
Marc:Because you, like, it was ridiculous.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I'm going to go ahead and take credit for inventing your entire oeuvre.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:I'm going to take credit for sending you into the world to argue about food because these are opinions.
Marc:And I mean, I think on some level, you know, you are telling people in the book how to really enjoy food and what goes into food and what goes into eating food.
Marc:But like, let's play this clip from this is from October 2004.
Marc:Oh, my goodness.
Marc:This is 10 years ago.
Marc:And this is like before this was even a seed in your imagination.
Marc:We had a debate here in the studio.
Marc:Important stuff going on here in the studio.
Marc:Dan Pashman has a stance that I'm not sure I agree with, yet he will defend it.
Marc:We were discussing what we were going to have for breakfast, and the idea of the omelet came up, and then there was a cheese problem.
Marc:He's got a cheese problem.
Marc:He says that the place that we get our breakfast doesn't always have such good cheese.
Marc:And this is a guy that says, I don't want a Philly cheesesteak sandwich if it has cheese on it, which is this is the standard thing.
Marc:So now – but here's the – it gets larger because we went with Dan Pashman to the Philly Cheesesteak Place path.
Marc:And it was good.
Marc:But he said, well, if that's all that city has to offer, then I'm not down with it.
Marc:But then it became a bigger problem about bread.
Guest:Well, this is something I feel very strongly about, Mark.
Guest:And I am a bit of a sandwich connoisseur.
Guest:I'll be honest with you.
Guest:I've put a lot of study and research and thought into the creation and manufacture of sandwiches.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I'm quite confident that you already have an inferior sandwich before you've taken a bite.
Guest:If you have hot things on the inside with cold bread on the outside, if you're going to have hot eggs and cheese or a burger or a hot dog or anything, whatever you're doing, you've got to heat the bread if you have hot inside.
Marc:Back up.
Marc:This is crazy.
Marc:You're talking crazy because you're denying the power of fresh bread.
Marc:If you have a fresh roll, all right, that's really nice and fresh and soft, like a bulky roll as they call them in Boston or whatever they call them here.
Marc:Kaiser.
Marc:A Kaiser roll, yeah.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And you put the egg sandwich on that.
Marc:Toasting a Kaiser roll that's really fresh, it's wrong.
Marc:I think you're wrong here.
Guest:I understand what you're saying, and I will grant you that in a situation where you have a small amount of bread and a large amount of hot filling, such as your corned beef example.
Marc:Well, that was an example the listeners didn't hear.
Guest:Fresh dry bread.
Marc:Let's say you go to the Carnegie Deli and you order a hot corned beef sandwich with switched cheese.
Marc:The corned beef comes out of the steam plate, out of the steam table.
Marc:You slice it up hot.
Marc:You put the cheese on it.
Marc:It melts itself.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:And then you put it on a fresh piece.
Guest:Right, but if you're talking about one scrambled egg and one slice of cheese and a big fat bulky roll where your sandwich is like 80% bread, if that bread is not heated, then it's not a good sandwich.
Marc:The bulky roll squishes up like it gets all soft and it meets the egg and cheese.
Marc:It meets it.
Marc:Do you understand?
Marc:If you have a little toasted crust, because you grill a bulky roll, there's no saying it doesn't just turn hard and brown.
Marc:I've been there, and it dries it out.
Guest:It dries out the fresh roll.
Guest:You can microwave it.
Guest:It doesn't even have to be hot.
Guest:Oh, not microwave.
Guest:No microwave.
Guest:You can't microwave anything.
Guest:You call yourself a sandwich kind of tour and you use the word microwave?
Guest:What's up with you?
Guest:I would not microwave.
Guest:I would toast it.
Guest:I'm saying if you want to maintain the squishiness.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I would never microwave bread.
Guest:No, you can't microwave almost anything.
Marc:There's nothing you should microwave unless you have to.
Marc:That's exactly how microwave is an emergency situation because if you microwave anything, it just turns into hard crap.
Marc:Something goes wrong with it.
Marc:Microwaves screw with food on a molecular level.
Marc:It ruins it.
Guest:You guys come to my house.
Guest:I cook you a Dan Pashman patented grilled egg and cheese sandwich and you will see the light.
Guest:I promise you that.
Marc:I'm sure it would be good, Dan Pashman.
Marc:But what I'm saying to you is you started this argument with this blanket statement that you cannot have hot stuff on a cold bread and you've made a concession.
Guest:The only concession I'll give you is corned beef, and that's because there's so much corned beef and so little bread that it will warm the bread while keeping it fresh, but that won't happen in most sandwich ratios.
Marc:See how people just naturally spin?
Marc:It's not just a Republican thing.
Guest:You see what's happened here?
Marc:What's changed, Dan?
Guest:Not much.
Guest:I will say that both you and I talk slower now.
Marc:Yeah, well, that was morning, and I was on 900 cups of coffee and a handful of M&Ms and complete mania.
Marc:And that other voice you heard was Mark Riley, who was my co-host for a couple years on the morning show.
Marc:That's Mark Maron morning show energy.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I wasn't going to give you an inch, though.
Guest:No, and you didn't.
Guest:But the funny thing about listening to that is when I first set out to do the Sporkful, I was like, this seems like a fun idea.
Guest:I think it's a different way to talk about food.
Guest:It actually wasn't until after I started doing it that I was like...
Guest:this is the role I was born to play.
Guest:And then I started thinking back to the segments we did together, and I was like, it was right in front of me all along.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I think that being passionate about something and being excited about something and having opinions about food, I mean, there's very few arguments you're going to have about food in the world that you're running in where you're going to end a friendship or you're not going to talk to somebody for years.
Marc:Do you share some of these provocative opinions in Eat More Better, your book?
Guest:I sure do.
Guest:In fact, I talk in particular about the Philly cheesesteak.
Guest:There's a lot of opinions in the book.
Marc:Let's go over some of them.
Guest:Well, I talk in the language arts.
Guest:It's a tongue-in-cheek textbook, the book, that would teach you to eat more better to make every bite more delicious.
Guest:So I talk in the language arts chapter about regional foods like buffalo wings or Philly's cheesesteak and about what right does the region have to coin a new term for a food event?
Guest:What right does it have to define what is and is not that food?
Guest:And then what right do they have to modify it?
Guest:So I will say like the cheesesteakeries of Philadelphia have a right to say what is and is not a cheesesteak.
Marc:So like Geno's and Pats and then there's a couple other ones.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they can say like, for instance, they have accepted the pizza steak with tomato sauce.
Guest:They listed on their menus under cheesesteak.
Guest:So they've accepted that.
Guest:But when John Kerry was running for president in 2004 and he went to Philly and he ordered a Philly cheesesteak with Swiss cheese.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like booed out of town.
Guest:So it cost him the election.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the fact is, do you agree, Mark, that Swiss cheese, putting aside what is or is not a quote-unquote Philly cheesesteak, Swiss cheese on a steak sandwich could be very delicious.
Marc:Fine, if you like Swiss.
Marc:Look, I mean, I'm not a huge Cheez Whiz fan if we're going to re-engage this argument.
Guest:But it's only been 10 years.
Marc:But the thing is, like, you know, provolone is the other option.
Marc:They're both good.
Marc:And I think what you're getting with regional food sometimes, especially with the cheesesteak, is you're getting a history of that.
Marc:Like both of those places have probably been using the same bakery for years.
Marc:They're using those same griddles for years.
Marc:They have the same amount of focus in what they're doing.
Marc:Like there's other sandwiches in Philly that are very good, like the roast pork at John's.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or the roast pork at the Knicks.
Marc:There's two different approaches to this.
Marc:But what you're getting with those sort of essentially kind of homemade fast food is you're getting a legacy.
Marc:There's a tradition there.
Marc:And sometimes that tradition pays off and it maintains a consistency.
Marc:And it is special because of the love that goes in it and and the equipment that goes into it.
Marc:It's seasoned equipment.
Marc:And then other times it just becomes a racket.
Marc:But I think what you're saying, like with the buffalo wings.
Marc:Look, Buffalo wings is butter and Frank's red hot.
Marc:That's Buffalo wings.
Marc:It's fried chicken wings dumped in Frank's red hot sauce and butter in some ratio and then served.
Marc:Can they say that no one can do that well?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've had pretty good Buffalo wings a lot of different places.
Marc:I've had them in Buffalo.
Marc:But now in Buffalo, you get these other places like we don't just do Buffalo wings.
Marc:We're doing a lot of kinds of wings.
Guest:But that's the question I have for you, Mark, is is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't you think that I don't disagree with anything you just said.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:Yes, there is a magic to these old school foods and the tradition and all that.
Guest:I'm all for that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But don't you think sometimes that also stands in the way of progress?
Marc:Like we're not going to make it to the moon?
Guest:Well, like I've talked to some buffaloing aficionados who say that the center of buffaloing innovation is now in Syracuse and Rochester, upstate New York, because the people in Buffalo feel beholden to the traditional recipe because tourists come and they want it the old fashioned way.
Guest:And now there are more delicious wings that have been developed.
Guest:Elsewhere.
Marc:Yeah, but they don't just want it the old-fashioned way.
Marc:They want to go to that place, the anchor or whatever.
Guest:The anchor bar.
Marc:Yeah, that's where they want to go.
Marc:They want to get a picture.
Marc:They want to sit there with the original.
Marc:These might be people that eat buffalo wings every week at their place, and they might be able to admit that the wings at their place is better or not, but they did go to the source.
Marc:There's something about going to the source.
Marc:I don't think it stands in the way of progress.
Marc:How?
Guest:I'm telling you, I talked to a guy who did a whole...
Guest:A whole documentary.
Guest:He's from upstate New York and he did a documentary about his search.
Guest:He went across the whole wing belt of upstate New York.
Guest:The wing belt?
Guest:The wing belt.
Guest:Is this in your book or on the show?
Guest:That's on the Sporkful, yeah.
Guest:And he was the one who told me.
Guest:He said, Buffalo's falling behind.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Has he alerted the city?
Marc:Has he told the chairman of Wings that perhaps they have to sort of make a change?
Guest:I mean, I think that the anchor bar is probably too busy counting money to care.
Marc:Unfortunately, I think what hampers progress more than anything else is probably Guy Fieri.
Marc:I think he's running out of places, and I'm not sure that all the places are exactly as great as he thinks they are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But but I would think that, well, maybe I'm wrong.
Marc:I was going to say, wow, that was quick.
Marc:I didn't even have to do anything.
Marc:You just lost the argument in your own head.
Guest:You want to try it?
Guest:I was going to say that it may be his fans are the ones who are most likely to go to the anchor bar and take the photos and get the T-shirts.
Marc:Well, I think that anything that encourages small businesses and people that do something interesting is good.
Marc:And there's a lot of places that make one good thing.
Marc:I'm sure the Anchor Bar's got other snacks.
Marc:I didn't go to the Anchor Bar to get wings.
Marc:I actually went to the other place.
Marc:And it was just a bar.
Marc:And the wings were fine.
Marc:But, you know, I've had plenty of good wings in a lot of different places.
Marc:I used to work at a place that made perfectly good wings.
Marc:If you do the butter Frank's hot sauce thing, you're going to get a good wing.
Marc:And you fry them good.
Marc:You just dump them in the basket.
Marc:You do them in the fry later.
Marc:They come out cooked.
Marc:And then right away you shake off the oil and you throw it in the mixture of Frank's and butter.
Marc:And then drain it off.
Marc:And you can't lose.
Guest:Well, I actually would argue that it's better if you serve them with sauce on the side.
Marc:What?
Marc:You're not going to sauce the wings?
Marc:They're not going to be dripping with franks and butter?
Guest:Buffalo wings, chicken wings are a member of the fried chicken family, and you've got to respect the crisp.
Guest:If you get your buffalo wings with the sauce on the side, you can dip them into the sauce on a per bite basis to sauce them while still maintaining wing crisp.
Guest:See, now this is where I have problems with you.
Marc:You've decided that, is this in the book?
Guest:There's a lot of wing eating techniques in the book.
Marc:There is?
Guest:Yeah, like the wing with the two bones.
Guest:Actually, Brendan McDonald's technique for wings is in the book.
Guest:It is?
Marc:Which is what?
Guest:He eats, like we're talking about the wing with the two parallel bones and the meat in the middle.
Guest:He eats all the way around the perimeter very delicately using only his teeth so the spiciness doesn't get on his lips.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then he uses his tongue to poke out the meat in between the two bones and use that as a palate cleanser.
Marc:It's afraid to burn his face.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, a palate cleanser.
Marc:Look, you've decided in some like screwed up Pashman world that that wings are a member of the fried chicken family.
Marc:Fried chicken is battered.
Guest:If chicken is fried, it's fried chicken.
Guest:Maybe it's like a black sheep.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:It's a redheaded stepchild of the fried chicken family.
Marc:The thing is, if you cook those wings long enough so they got a nice hard crust on them and the oil is hot enough and you just hit them with that sauce right away, you'll get that texture.
Marc:The texture of the buffalo wing is what it is.
Marc:You don't separate the idea.
Marc:It's like, no, it's about fried chicken and sauce.
Marc:No, it's about buffalo wing.
Marc:The buffalo wing at its best is if it's fried properly and dipped in the sauce and you bite it, that's what it's supposed to taste like.
Guest:You don't want that 10th wing to be crispy?
Marc:But that's not the problem.
Marc:Yeah, sure, you want it to be crispy, but then eat faster, drink faster, do whatever you got to do.
Marc:Get the food in your fucking face.
Marc:I mean, that is not because you're troubleshooting.
Marc:This is not a principle you have.
Marc:Oh, no, no, crisp is a principle.
Guest:I will defend crisp.
Guest:I know.
Marc:OK, OK, fine.
Marc:But let's say let's think about those first four wings hot where you still get the crisp underneath the sauce that's dripping off of it.
Marc:That hot, beautiful butter and Frank's hot sauce.
Marc:And then like, OK, so you get to the ninth wing and you're like, gee, I wish they were separate now.
Marc:So so apparently you don't mind cold wings.
Marc:You dip a nice, cold, crispy wing in the sauce.
Guest:So really what you're arguing is that when the sauce has a chance to seep into the wing a little bit, you lose crisp, but it unifies.
Guest:It melds into a new thing that isn't quite the same.
Guest:Yes, it's a buffalo wing.
Marc:It's a buffalo wing.
Guest:I think that term just refers to the sauce.
Guest:No.
Marc:I refuse to acknowledge that.
Guest:So if you go to a wings place and you get wings with barbecue sauce.
Guest:That's not buffalo wings.
Guest:It's not, but if you get them with the sauce on the side, then what are they called?
Marc:Disaster.
Marc:It's called we don't know how to do this right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Ten years later, Mark, we still got it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, because you dip it in the blue cheese dressing or the ranch dressing.
Guest:But in this guy, Matt Reynolds, who did this documentary, The Great Chicken Wing Hunt, that I'm referring to when he went across the wing belt, he took out a team of wing aficionados.
Guest:They traveled across the wing belt.
Guest:And the wing that they picked, this is a spoiler alert for people who may want to watch this film, which I recommend.
Guest:The wing that they picked, the sauce had blue cheese dressing in the sauce.
Guest:And they said it was amazing.
Marc:I'm sure it's amazing.
Marc:It's a matter of tradition and classic versus, I don't think anyone's stifling progress.
Marc:But some people are going to be like, well, I'm a traditionalist.
Guest:Well, that's right, but this is the argument that I make in the book, which is if the people of Buffalo want to say that it's not a buffalo wing unless it's served already sauced, they have a right to say that.
Guest:But they don't have a right to say that separating the wing and the sauce would not make it better.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:It's not a buffalo wing, though.
Guest:But it's better.
Marc:No, it's a matter of taste.
Marc:Some people enjoy things that you don't enjoy, and it's their right.
Marc:It doesn't mean you're wrong.
Marc:It just means you have to adjust the way you see things.
Guest:No, I mean, look, there are matters of taste, and I always quote the Latin maxim, in matters of taste there can be no dispute.
Guest:So I try to deal in my work in matters of objective truth.
Marc:But I think what we learned about you also is that in your youthful cockiness, that sometimes you don't have the depth necessary to really appreciate.
Marc:Well, like we said, Mark, you taught me everything I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:What other stuff am I going to learn in this book?
Marc:Let's fight it out.
Marc:What are some lines you draw in Eat More Better?
Guest:proximity effect yeah anytime you take a bite of food whatever's in closest proximity to your tongue that flavor will be accentuated so i recommend cheeseburger with cheese on the bottom okay and so that way the cheese is closer to your tongue it accentuates cheesy goodness now is this something you've worked do you do this oh yeah when i do my book talk events all over the country i i bring oreos and i do a demonstration where you separate the oreo and you eat them frosting side right on your tongue and you can taste the difference
Marc:I mean, that seems like a good idea.
Guest:It is.
Marc:I'm a compulsive eater.
Marc:Everything goes in very fast.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not a lot of savoring.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I've seen that.
Guest:I remember when we were working together at Air America the second time around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first time we were so full of hope, but the second time we knew it was just, it was a paycheck, right?
Guest:A little cynical.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had the idea that I could maybe make the job last a little longer if I positioned myself as the guy at the office who was like, rah, rah.
Yeah.
Guest:I'm the team builder guy.
Guest:I started the softball team, and I organized a St.
Guest:Patrick's Day party, and I cooked a whole corned beef and a crock pot the whole day in the office so that we could have a party at 5 o'clock.
Guest:And all the executives were like, oh, Pashman's so great.
Guest:He gets everyone so excited.
Guest:Hopefully, let's get me one more month of employment.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I had brought in my cutting board and my nice knife, and I took the corned beef out of the crock pot, and I put it on the cutting board in the kitchen.
Guest:Everyone was congregating in the conference room.
Guest:And so I sliced up the corned beef, and I had it beautifully arranged on this big wooden cutting board.
Guest:And everyone's waiting in the conference room, which is like 100 feet away, except you.
Guest:You were standing right next to me.
Guest:And the second I stopped slicing the corned beef, you started just taking it with your hands off the cutting board.
Guest:And you then, as I tried to run away from you so that there'd be enough corned beef left for other people, you jogged alongside me.
Yeah.
Guest:Pulling corned beef off the cutting board with your hands.
Marc:Well, you know that I have a diminishing buffet syndrome.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We've talked about this before.
Marc:That's an important thing to realize.
Guest:How do you combat that?
Marc:You sort of get in the present and realize, well, they're supposed to have food for a while.
Marc:Maybe they'll make good on that.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:Well, good luck with the book, Eat More Better, and as always, the Sporkful.
Marc:Is that once a week?
Guest:Sporkful podcast once a week.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Thanks, Dan.
Guest:Thanks, buddy.
Guest:Good seeing you.
Guest:You too.
Marc:Ah, wasn't that pleasant?
Marc:I don't know if it was pleasant.
Marc:It was nice to see Dan.
Marc:It was nice.
Marc:He's annoying in a very charming way.
Marc:Julia Sweeney is a lovely woman and very funny.
Marc:I was thrilled that she stopped by to talk to me.
Marc:Her memoir was released earlier this year.
Marc:It's called If It's Not One Thing, It's Your Mother.
Marc:I love her.
Marc:I love her.
Marc:Let's talk to Julia Sweeney.
Guest:Julia Sweeney.
Marc:Hello.
Marc:I feel like we ran into each other sometimes.
Marc:When?
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:At clubs, I think.
Guest:I did a little stand-up kind of...
Marc:I feel like I know you, kind of.
Guest:Yeah, I remember seeing you at clubs.
Marc:At things?
Guest:At things.
Marc:Where you'd come in and people would be like, she's on SNL.
Marc:She used to be on SNL.
Guest:She should be so much funnier.
Marc:That's not true.
Guest:No, I'm not trying to be self-deprecating.
Guest:But yeah, I feel like I was... And then I just love you.
Marc:I just love you.
Marc:Well, you're so nice.
Guest:I do, I do.
Marc:Where do you live now?
Guest:I live in a small town north of Chicago.
Marc:I was just in Chicago.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Marc:And I did a big old show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it was good.
Marc:What town north of Chicago?
Guest:I never go out.
Guest:Otherwise, I would definitely go.
Guest:If I was a person who ever left my house.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:We get to... I always wonder about that because I'm so thrilled that my fans come out.
Marc:Because most of my fans are... They're not my age, but they're not kids.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I know that it's a big deal for them to come out.
Guest:It's a hard audience to get people... Well, first, I blame it on having a kid, but...
Guest:The truth is I didn't go out even when I didn't have a kid.
Guest:And really having a kid, like 50% of becoming a mother was having an excuse to never leave the house.
Marc:Can't go out.
Marc:Can't get a sitter.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Oh, I so would be at your show.
Marc:And there's probably a lot of shows to go to in Chicago of people you know.
Guest:Oh, I know.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:Did you grow up there?
Guest:No.
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in Spokane, Washington.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think I knew that because I did some of my vague research.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Spokane, Washington.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, Spokane.
Guest:And then I went to college in Seattle.
Guest:And then I moved to LA.
Marc:That's so lucky to go.
Marc:That's so beautiful up there.
Marc:Do you care about it anymore?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:In fact, I just bought a cemetery plot for myself in Spokane.
Marc:That's an uplifting way to start the show.
Marc:Is it a nice plot?
Marc:It is.
Guest:It's with our family.
Guest:It's other people in the family.
Guest:And actually, just this morning, I paid the final check on it.
Marc:And so it's all ready to go.
Guest:And I feel like I don't have to visit Spokane that much anymore because I'm going to spend a long time there.
Marc:That's my post-retirement plan.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Do I need to get one of those?
Marc:When do you get one of those?
Guest:I don't know, because my husband and I kept going back and forth about it.
Guest:He doesn't care at all about that and would not even discuss it.
Guest:And the only reason I did is because I've had a couple siblings die.
Guest:other family members, and they're in this area that we have visited in Spokane, the cemetery.
Guest:We work like a Mexican family where we go have a picnic at the cemetery with our relative.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But you're a Catholic family.
Guest:Irish Catholic.
Guest:Yeah, but we just loved... We just had to stop by all the time.
Guest:If we were on the north side, it's like we've got to... We'll pop in and say hello to Henrietta.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Your grandparents?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it suddenly occurred to me that that's...
Guest:Meaningful.
Guest:Not everyone has that.
Guest:It's this meaningful thing.
Guest:And then I had happened to talk to this woman who sells cemetery plots there.
Guest:And she goes, you know the spot right next to your two brothers is available.
Guest:And I was like, I'm in.
Guest:I am so in.
Guest:And then anyway, then I have two other siblings.
Guest:So I was trying to get them to buy the spots next to me.
Guest:And they were like...
Guest:I don't want to be next to Aunt Barbara.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Well, it was like, well, what if my husband and I be together?
Guest:And then my other sibling was like, well, but I don't want to be next to her husband.
Marc:Oh, because you got to buy more than you do.
Marc:You have to buy.
Guest:Well, no, you can have up to four.
Guest:Actually, we could all go in one plot.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They've just upped it from two people.
Guest:two four people can be in one plot have they changed the distances or is it no because people are cremated now oh so it used to be you couldn't be cremated if you were catholic oh but they changed the rules so now it's just a heyday at the cemetery because you can pack a whole bunch of people on a plot and it's cheaper to cremate i guess oh yeah especially if you're not in town when you die transportation's easier right you just go on the plane you're just carry on yeah
Marc:And it's so it's funny.
Marc:It's not morbid.
Marc:I think the Catholics are pretty good at that.
Marc:I think there's like the idea of having lunch at a cemetery or whatever.
Marc:There's a comfort with death.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Sort of.
Guest:I find that so true.
Marc:Like it's a morbid religion.
Guest:Actually, my daughter just said because my husband's they're Jewish atheists, basically.
Guest:And.
Guest:And proud third generation Jewish atheist.
Guest:And my daughter said to me recently, you know, dad's side of the family, they don't talk about, they don't even believe in an afterlife, but they don't talk about people dying and that much.
Guest:But your side of the family, they all believe in this afterlife, even though she knows I don't.
Guest:And yet, you know, you're totally comfortable talking about being dead and this person's gonna be dead and soon we'll all be dead and soon we'll all be in the ground.
Guest:And I think that's a healthy, I like it.
Marc:Well, I think however you can accept death, it's a good way to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's the one thing we all don't want to confront or we want to deny.
Marc:But I think you get to a certain age.
Marc:I never really thought about it as... I always knew that I would die.
Marc:But when you get older, you're sort of like, well, it might be soon.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And am I doing everything I need to be doing?
Guest:Okay, here's my new thing.
Guest:Because I actually am really trying to think about death a lot.
Marc:Why?
Guest:I think it gives me this more...
Guest:palpable sensation with being alive.
Guest:Like just think about it.
Marc:To accept it and realize it and to live life.
Guest:Yeah, accept it.
Guest:Like kind of contemplate death, you know, like just to have it.
Guest:But anyway, my new thing isn't when I see babies anywhere.
Guest:I think when that baby's my age, I won't be alive.
Guest:oh that yeah like that's this new it gives you a little tingle does it yeah like wow get a little bump from that it's coming up it's soon i will not be around oh but i don't like that i don't know why that makes me well how old are you do you talk about it um yeah i'm 54 i'll be 55. well it's not it's that time of life though doesn't it feel like puberty but of the later age
Marc:Yeah, but with nothing to look forward to.
Guest:Oh, come on.
Guest:Isn't it so much better being older?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's so much better.
Guest:Every year is so much better.
Marc:I think so, because you... All the stuff you don't care about anymore.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It fades.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:But why couldn't it go the other way?
Marc:Why couldn't it start like that?
Marc:Which it does, I guess, as a baby.
Marc:But that middle period where everything's a panic and everything... Yeah.
Marc:But, I mean, you had cancer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you must have looked at him.
Guest:No, I didn't think I would die.
Guest:Well, I was a believer then, for one thing.
Guest:I believed that God was, I mean, not like a weird believer, but I had this sense of destiny about myself that was completely uninformed and wrong.
Marc:Was it Jesus-oriented?
Guest:Um, no, I was more, you know, I thought it was just an energy, you know, I had a kind of new age slash Catholic thing.
Guest:Yeah, very vague, specific.
Guest:But I just had this sense that I was going to survive.
Marc:Well, you were right.
Guest:I was right, but I could have been wrong.
Marc:I guess, but I mean, sometimes, I mean, you don't believe in any spiritual mojo.
Marc:You don't believe in any, like, maybe you just... Well, what does that mean?
Marc:Well, it just means, like, you don't... There's nothing mystical.
Guest:Are you that practical about... Well, but I find just... I know, now I'm just going to be so hateful, because I will say being alive right this second is mystical.
Guest:I mean, like... Okay, yeah.
Guest:But I don't think there's any...
Guest:knowledgeable being or energy that knows anything about me or would care anything about me.
Marc:Right, but maybe you just had a sense.
Marc:Maybe that something inside of you knew that you weren't going to die.
Guest:Well, it was an easy cancer.
Marc:So it was actually a doctor that convinced you of that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was cervical cancer.
Guest:And it's like I was going to survive.
Guest:The doctor said I've never had one person not survive this cancer.
Marc:Nothing mystical about medicine, I guess.
Guest:But people will say, well, you've confronted death.
Guest:And I was like, oh, that was so not confronting death.
Marc:But your brothers died.
Guest:Yeah, but he had lymphoma.
Guest:And stage four.
Marc:That's when they found it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Where was it?
Guest:It was everywhere.
Guest:It was everywhere.
Marc:And he had no idea?
Guest:No, because he didn't have medical insurance.
Marc:But there was no symptoms?
Guest:Yeah, he had weird things.
Guest:He would have a leg ache, like a headache, but a leg ache.
Guest:And then he had a toothache.
Guest:And then he went to the dentist, but they were like, your teeth are fine.
Guest:And that's a kind of icky cancer.
Guest:And then he was...
Guest:He didn't have insurance, so he's going to free clinics.
Guest:It wasn't necessarily, although the free clinics can be great, but they weren't going to do all the tests to really find out.
Guest:Oh, that's a sad thing.
Marc:So by the time he found out, it was really... So you did confront death, at least with him.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:And then I had another brother die two summers ago.
Guest:Of?
Guest:Alcoholism and drug addiction.
Marc:Cancer, alcoholism, drug addiction.
Guest:Yeah, it's everywhere.
Marc:Alcoholism's hard.
Marc:Did you grow up with that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My dad.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's kind of part of it when you're Irish Catholic for many people.
Marc:It definitely is part of it.
Marc:And he remained alcoholic?
Guest:No, he had... No, he sobered up.
Guest:He had...
Guest:He had really like a nervous breakdown at one point, and then he went away to a mental hospital for a year, and so he was sober there.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:26 or something like that.
Marc:So you're out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You had withstood the storm already.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he was up and back on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just a whole thing.
Guest:It's just so tough.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:You know, I'm sober myself, but it's just very interesting to me how, like, there is some offspring of alcoholics that become alcoholics, and the other ones become very close friends of alcoholics.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, sometimes I think, I'm so lucky that my drug was food, actually.
Guest:Is that what it was?
Guest:Because you can survive that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, like, that doesn't... Right.
Guest:Unless you really go crazy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You really, that's a much more survivable stress-reducing mechanism than alcohol drugs.
Marc:And that was your thing?
Guest:yeah it is my thing it still is yeah sure it's i can feel it in my body like when i feel stressed out i want to eat and it does the job it absolutely my blood pressure goes down right i get focused like it absolutely does the job and i know that's the feeling my brother and dad had for example and what did that was alcohol yeah how old was your brother with the alcoholism
Guest:He just two years ago.
Guest:Let me see.
Guest:52.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:So he even had it bad, huh?
Guest:Yeah, for years and years.
Marc:Oh, man.
Guest:And just like the teeth going.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was really sad.
Guest:And he was the loveliest, most, the brightest, funniest.
Marc:Oh, God damn it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But did you end up like, yeah, I mean, how did it manifest itself in the house?
Marc:Was he just like your old man?
Guest:Was he raging or was he just... No, that was the... My mom, they had an interesting dynamic.
Guest:My mom would be raging because he was drinking.
Guest:He became the nicest, most complimentary guy.
Guest:So we all kind of were mad at my mom for being so mad at him.
Guest:As an adult, I look back and think...
Guest:He was completely checked out.
Guest:And like another kid, she was having to handle all this stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that must have been crazy.
Guest:And there were five kids.
Guest:And there's five kids.
Guest:But my dad was like, I went to a like teen, you know, children of alcoholics, Alateen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And people were like, my dad beat me.
Guest:And my dad did this.
Guest:And I like my dad recites James Joyce to himself and tells you that he loves you so because you're so smart and life is fleeting.
Marc:that was your that was his drunk that was your war story so hard so hard yeah what was he he you mean his profession yeah uh he was a u.s attorney actually so he was like he was a he was a functioning functioning alcoholic yeah just at home and on weekends yeah after work yeah who knows
Guest:I don't know what happened before trials.
Marc:What does the U.S.
Marc:attorney do?
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:Well, his specialty, there's all these Native Americans in Washington state on the east side of the state where I'm from who are on reservations.
Guest:And whenever the government would find any piece of land there that was good, like a river, they would then go in and take it away from the Native Americans.
Guest:And he was the main guy who knew how to take the land back.
Guest:so he represented the indians no he was on the government side saying oh we made a mistake the map was it's really this is that's what's his negotiation he would negotiate with tribal leaders yeah about why they can't live there anymore and it was really sordid and terrible it was horrible so he had to drink no he did and then they and then the reservations that drinking i mean like it's just everywhere but it was i don't think he liked doing that part of it
Marc:It seems like a hard gig.
Marc:I never understand how lawyers who do nefarious things, how they rationalize it.
Guest:Well, he... It was really complicated, the Native American thing, because then the tribal leaders would get the money and then how they would spend the... Right.
Guest:Because it wasn't... It was supposedly communally owned.
Guest:This is pre-casino.
Guest:Yes, it's pre-casino.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was really...
Guest:I don't even want to paint it that he was the bad guy because in some ways he was the good guy because he could get this money that could establish certain things on the reservation that would help everyone instead of just these two chiefs who said they should get all the money.
Guest:So that was his whole thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's what you grew up in.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And what did your other siblings end up doing?
Guest:My mom was a housewife.
Guest:Is she still around?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You wrote about her in the new book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my sister Meg moved to Japan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She went to law school and took out huge loans to go to law school.
Guest:And in the middle of her third year, realized that her calling was to teach nursery school.
Guest:And she had like $150,000 in law school loans.
Guest:So she found out about this sort of indentured servant program where you could go to a place...
Guest:In Japan, live in like a dorm.
Guest:You don't get paid for two years.
Guest:All you do is teach English conversation all day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they would pay your student loans off.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:So 27 years ago, whatever, she did that.
Marc:For two years.
Guest:for two years fell in love with japan felt like she was really japanese also it was conveniently thousands of miles away from my parents right and she's never but she when she visits but she's like now lived in japan longer than here and she speaks japanese oh yeah oh wow she's married to siyoshi and oh really yeah that's interesting yeah so i've gotten many times to visit her is japan great
Guest:It's great when you have a sister who lives there who can... First of all, you can just laugh at all this stuff together.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:They are so into the rules.
Marc:A lot of structure.
Guest:A lot of structure.
Guest:And also such nonverbal communication.
Guest:So much isn't even... It's not just that you don't know Japanese.
Guest:You have to learn this whole other... It's interesting.
Marc:Do you find it interesting that the daughter of an alcoholic would go and seek such a controlled environment?
Guest:No.
Guest:It makes perfect sense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:She feels very safe and everything there.
Marc:Right.
Guest:yeah that's like that's amazing that she went that way with her control freakness yeah it's true yeah it is and now um and she's doing great actually she's really happy she's she's in a good place great what's the other one and the other one um he lives in seattle he's married with twins that are just a year younger than my daughter so 13 and he works for this he does an internet something i don't understand but he's very very successful
Marc:Great.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So everyone's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're going to Spokane, Washington.
Marc:You go to high school.
Marc:You go to college in Seattle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've become an accountant.
Marc:You did not.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Another controlling profession.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It wasn't for me, ultimately.
Marc:Good.
Marc:See, I'm projecting because I always think it's wild to me what I was going to say.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:is that the children of alcoholics either become alcoholics and drug addicts or control freaks.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I wonder if I'm a control freak.
Guest:I don't think.
Guest:You don't feel like one.
Marc:Well, no, because usually it's because you're in this position with a grown person that's completely out of control all the time.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you can't do anything about this primary situation in your life.
Marc:So when you get out of that, you're like, I'm going to keep it tight.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:There's a reaction.
Guest:It is true.
Guest:I have a lot of friends whose parents drank that don't drink at all.
Guest:And I actually like to drink.
Guest:I drink.
Guest:I mean, I don't have a problem with it, but I like it.
Guest:And I find that unusual.
Guest:It's like usually no drinking or have a problem with it.
Marc:Well, you were lucky.
Guest:I was lucky that way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how long were you an accountant?
Guest:five years really yeah after college yeah so you didn't come down to la i moved to la to be an accountant that's how i came here i was like i'm gonna take this city by storm to be an accountant no yes were you a show business account yes i worked at columbia pictures in the participation accounting department with no desire to be in show business well i had been in a play in high school
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Romeo and Juliet, where I played the nurse.
Guest:And, you know, I had flirted with that idea because I had a sort of theatrical personality.
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:But I didn't feel I was pretty... Like, I still had that crazy thing that so many people still have.
Guest:Like, in order to be an actor, you have to be gorgeous.
Guest:And it's like, just look at the television.
Guest:There's lots and lots of parts for lots and lots of people.
Guest:But to me, I just...
Guest:I didn't think I felt like you had to be beautiful.
Guest:Oh, like people would tell you, you know, like how they tell beautiful young women, you should be an actor.
Guest:Yeah, people weren't.
Guest:But I wasn't.
Guest:But I have to say, it wasn't like I had to be an actor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:And then why?
Marc:Why L.A.
Marc:then?
Guest:Because I love film.
Guest:I had a degree in film.
Guest:I got a degree in economics and in film.
Marc:You minored in film studies.
Guest:I love the movies.
Guest:And I moved here thinking, this town, we're going to talk about film all the time.
Marc:That's all people talk about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I got to the accounting department and it was really just an industry town.
Guest:I'd be going up going, there's an Anthony Mann series at LACMA.
Guest:We should all get all the other accountants together to go.
Guest:And they're like...
Marc:Yeah, let's go see the bicycle thief.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was really surprised that everyone here wasn't just really into the history of film.
Marc:Nobody.
Guest:Just another industry town.
Guest:So then I started going to, back then, this is so back then, I was at all the Vista.
Guest:I started seeing people and I made friends.
Guest:At the revival houses?
Guest:Yeah, at the revival houses.
Guest:So I would sit in the first five rows.
Guest:And I made all these friends who were really interested in film.
Marc:Film nerds.
Guest:Yeah, film nerds.
Guest:That was my first group.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Were they mostly heavyset men?
Guest:I was really popular.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is great.
Marc:People showing you their magazines and signed.
Guest:They're like, there was a lost reel of intolerance.
Guest:I've got Sean's super radio.
Guest:I just didn't want to know if you want to come over.
Guest:And then I read a review of the Groundling Theater and I signed up for classes.
Guest:And then Phil Hartman was one of my teachers.
Guest:Just for fun?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were an accountant.
Marc:You're like, this sounds fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It said in the ad, we teach classes for non-professionals.
Guest:And if it had not said non-professional actors, I would never have gone to the ground.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I thought, oh, it's like, you know how lawyers need to learn improv.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, I think a lot of people do that for people skills.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I went, and it just blew my mind.
Guest:It completely exploded.
Guest:Like, why?
Why?
Guest:I knew that it was for me.
Guest:Like, this was what I was just... Right when you got there?
Guest:What was it about it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It was so... And by the way, I wasn't good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't about being good.
Guest:In fact, I flunked the first level.
Guest:You did.
Guest:But I just knew it was like doing cocaine or something.
Guest:It was like...
Guest:In fact, I was just telling my husband recently that in my first class, three times out of the 12 classes, I parked and couldn't get out of my car to go into the class because it was so powerful to me what was happening in that class.
Guest:Getting up and making up characters and saying what came to your...
Guest:in your head really you were just overwhelmed it was too much like that was too big really it was too big like what what was that feeling like it was just like you just you couldn't you're just so high from it and laughing so hard and getting to laugh with other people and making something together that was funny together oh my god what did you not have friends during childhood
Guest:i don't know i don't know it was just really amazing and that there was stuff you could learn like you know in improv there's rules you know like so phil hartman was your first teacher no he was my second when i had to repeat um randy bennett uh-huh and he was a teacher there at the groundlings and then phil hartman was my next teacher and then we became good friends and then he got on snl a few years later and then he
Guest:but who else was there let's go through the the kathy griffin was probably my closest person there uh-huh and you were friends yeah lisa kudrow uh-huh and this is when but this is in your class not when you how did it how does it work again you did well you do classes for a couple years and you work your way up and then you get into the sunday company and then you get into the main company from that how long did it take you to get to the main company
Guest:Like, not that long.
Guest:I actually went pretty quick.
Guest:It was like a couple years of classes in like a year.
Guest:And then I was in the main company only briefly and got on SNL.
Marc:You were like one of the lucky ones.
Guest:Really lucky.
Guest:In fact, it was sort of between Kathy Griffin, Lisa Kudrow, and me.
Guest:And when I got it, I thought, I just hope those two girls have careers.
Guest:They did all right.
Guest:Because they deserve it.
Guest:Because obviously I launched into this super career and I hope they do okay.
Marc:They did all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So anyway, of course, they've done huge.
Marc:So you're learning with Phil Hartman, who's a sweet guy.
Guest:Really sweet.
Marc:And who else is in your classes?
Marc:Anyone else I would know?
Guest:Well, that was the other great thing about the Groundlings is that I understood how show business worked because...
Guest:Everyone there didn't just become an actor.
Guest:There was a lot of people doing puppetry stuff who went with the Muppets.
Guest:There was that connection.
Guest:Some people started writing and producing commercials.
Guest:Oh, so you learned that there.
Guest:Some people... Well, I didn't learn those things, but I made connections with people who did many, many things in show business.
Guest:And they were using the groundlings as... Yeah, and so you were kind of... You learned how to... Yeah, you learned... I was like, oh, I see how this business works.
Guest:You kind of...
Guest:learn how to do a whole bunch of things and then you see which things are popping up for you.
Marc:Yeah, how do you apply your talent?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then, of course, it's 90% luck, too.
Marc:It is.
Marc:But smarter, talented people who go a little below the radar, they seem to have longevity that people that go in front of the camera don't necessarily have.
Marc:If you want to get into commercials or producing commercials or perhaps puppetry or perhaps writing.
Guest:Or writing on shows.
Guest:A lot of writers.
Marc:Yeah, they're the smart ones.
Marc:But those of us who are like, I want to be on front of the camera.
Marc:I want to be on stage.
Marc:That's where it gets hard.
Guest:It is hard.
Guest:I feel like I've had a good mix of all the things.
Marc:Well, yeah, and you've leveled off with all this.
Marc:I think you really did something comfortable with your career, and you stayed doing it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:As opposed to just beat your head against the wall, trying to get cast out here.
Guest:Well, when I look back on it now that I'm an older person,
Guest:Um, I wish I had been more tenacious and ambitious actually about my, like in some ways I was, I definitely had fantasies of being successful, but I didn't have work skills that I, the work skills that I wish I had to really back it up.
Guest:I mean, you know, like if I would have given myself a note, I'd go work harder.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but would you do that anyways?
Marc:I mean, do you do that about everything?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it doesn't really apply.
Guest:No.
Guest:And plus it's a waste of time.
Marc:That's just your form of self-loathing.
Marc:Is that you're not doing enough?
Guest:Yeah, maybe.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:I could see that.
Marc:I mean, I have that too.
Marc:I always think that I'm just a little more disciplined away.
Marc:Right.
Marc:From what?
Right.
Marc:I don't know, from that guy's career, from if I'd done this or what happened the other way.
Marc:It's just a bad, it's a faulty wire.
Guest:That's the one I would say icky thing about getting older is ruminating, the opportunity to ruminate over such a vast amount of time over what you might have done.
Guest:And that is definitely not good about getting older.
Marc:Well, I've tried to... I've been very sort of kind of vigilant about not doing that, about not having regrets and having acceptance of what happened and why it happened.
Guest:Right, I know.
Guest:That's big.
Guest:It's hard.
Guest:That is a real talent.
Marc:Well, I was fortunate in that nothing happened for me until I was in my 40s.
Marc:You know, I didn't really start making a living until I came out here in the garage.
Marc:So because it happened so late.
Guest:That's so funny because I guess in show business, you never know how people really are in their living.
Marc:No, just because they're on TV.
Guest:And like to me, because you were such a well-respected comic and because I liked you, I just assumed you.
Marc:You're doing fine.
Guest:Yeah, like I didn't.
Guest:Really know how people were doing it.
Marc:Never selling tickets.
Marc:Took a long time.
Marc:But I think because my real successor, like I sort of landed in my groove in my late 40s, it's a lot easier for me to kind of look at my life as like, well, I guess it was all leading here.
Marc:Not like, you know, it's about fucking time.
Marc:Yeah, I don't have that.
Marc:You know, after all those missed opportunities.
Guest:And also because when you're older, you know so many people who are so talented and worked really hard, and they didn't do well.
Guest:And that is just the way it goes.
Marc:That's the most hard.
Guest:That's evolution.
Marc:That is the saddest thing, man.
Guest:But I was going to say, I recently did the Uncap.
Guest:Actually, I'm saying recently.
Guest:I think it was like a year ago.
Guest:Somebody else was on the show who came up and said this thing that kind of fucked me up for like six months where he's like...
Guest:What I remember before you got on SNL, or maybe it was just as I don't know, whatever he said, he was like, I was working for a development and you are going to be the next big thing.
Guest:I mean, you were everyone was running around at CBS saying you are going to star in it.
Guest:And you and wow.
Guest:And what were you living now?
Guest:And I was like, oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:And then first it was like, is that really true?
Guest:And then I thought it might've been for 10 minutes, but even like it was really, it took me so long to process that conversation.
Marc:Horrible.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:Horrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You could have had this long career on television as this lovable person who was in syndication.
Guest:Everybody said so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've had that happen once or twice.
Marc:Not to that degree, but we thought you were going to.
Marc:I'm like, no, it wasn't apparently.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That wasn't the way it went.
Guest:And then now I live in this town where people know me from SNL if they know me.
Guest:I thought no one would know me.
Guest:I really thought I was past that time.
Guest:Like I had reached... Never.
Marc:Not when you create a character that was such a national phenomenon.
Marc:Like I was thinking about before you came over.
Marc:I'm like, there was a period there where people were dressing up for Halloween.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I think it probably might still happen.
Guest:Todd Rundgren and his whole band dressed up as Pat for Halloween.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sent me a picture of them.
Guest:Like that was...
Marc:Yeah, it was huge.
Guest:But I didn't, I felt like I didn't look like that.
Guest:My joke is that now I've grown into looking like that.
Guest:I didn't realize I was dressing up as myself in the future.
Guest:This is a nightmare.
Marc:Was that character, was that something you created at the Groundlings?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, I'm fascinated by that whole thing, how people show up with their characters.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you're in the Groundlings, you do the classes for two years, you're in the Sunday crew, and then you're in the main crew.
Marc:So that's about four years in.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And you're already what?
Marc:30 almost?
Guest:I was just, and I had to lie because they were looking for women under 30 and men up to age like 45.
Guest:It was completely blatantly horrendous.
Guest:And I was just turning 30 and I lied by one year about my age, which was so ridiculous.
Guest:I should have like, if you're going to lie about your age, just go for it.
Marc:Take a few off.
Guest:But I said, I'm 28 instead of 29 or whatever.
Guest:So that I would seem like not close to the edge.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah, so I was about that age.
Guest:Because I had done the accounting and then I did the other thing.
Marc:And how did the audition happen?
Guest:Well, there was like a year of increasingly more important person coming from the SNL world to see us where my name was still in a group of names they were looking at.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then that went on for so long, it just seemed like that was going to be the rest of my life.
Guest:There were so many incrementally more important persons before you got to Lorne Michaels that it would be a lifetime of doing growling shows before you would ever get the chance to audition.
Marc:To meet the wizard.
Guest:And then he came to the show with Alice, his then assistant secretary, who then became his wife.
Guest:This is 89, I guess.
Guest:And it was Kathy Griffin and Lisa Kudrow and other, you know, they came to the show.
Guest:And then they had me fly to New York and do...
Guest:Well, then it was kind of like we've picked you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But there's still a final hurdle.
Marc:You got to go in the studio, right?
Guest:Which is go do your sketches for the cast and writers of SNL in a room.
Marc:I've never heard that one.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you were cast or no?
Guest:Well, it was like they were negotiating a deal, but it wasn't for sure that I was getting it till I did this final audition.
Marc:So who was there?
Guest:It was me and my ex-husband, who was in The Groundlings at the time.
Guest:So we had some sketches we did together.
Marc:Who's your ex-husband?
Guest:Steve Hibbert.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Yeah, I remember that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't know you were married to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were married to him before you did The Groundlings?
Guest:No, I married him while I was at The Groundlings.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Why do I know him?
Marc:He was in things.
Guest:He was the gimp in Pulp Fiction.
Guest:It's probably his most famous thing.
Marc:Yes, I've met him before.
Marc:How long were you married to him?
Yeah.
Guest:Just a few years.
Marc:This is not your favorite thing to talk about?
Guest:No, I don't even want to bring this up.
Guest:Let's go out of that time.
Marc:Why was it such a bad time?
Guest:No, no, it wasn't even bad.
Guest:We're still friends.
Guest:We still text each other occasionally.
Marc:Why the shame?
Guest:No, because I just... You know what's so funny is like... It's like I... I don't know why that is.
Guest:I don't know why that is because...
Guest:I'm open about it, obviously.
Guest:But it feels like a failure.
Guest:It feels like it didn't work.
Guest:That's a bad mark on your resume?
Guest:On your marriage resume?
Guest:Yeah, my marriage resume, it's not of A+.
Marc:You never saw yourself as a divorced person?
Guest:No, you've got like a D+.
Marc:Oh, so what?
Guest:I know, exactly.
Guest:I agree with that.
Guest:Why do I feel that way?
Marc:That's Catholic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Should have stuck in there forever.
Guest:But anyway, he came with me, and he was very supportive.
Guest:And I did a lot of stuff alone, and then I did a couple sketches with him.
Marc:So you showcased characters?
Guest:Yeah, then I'd come out as a character.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:What were the characters?
Guest:Thank God I was so oblivious to really everything.
Guest:You were in it.
Marc:You were doing characters.
Guest:I remember Dennis Miller was really nice to me.
Guest:And then Phil was there.
Guest:Of course, he was nice to me.
Guest:And John Lovitz had just left, but he was around, so they were supportive.
Yeah.
Marc:So did you do Pat?
Guest:Yeah, and I did Pat.
Guest:But, you know, Pat wasn't my big character, though.
Guest:I did this other character called Mia Culpa.
Guest:And she was really, like, making fun of my inner me.
Guest:And it was just apologizing for everything.
Guest:Like, hitting something.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's broad, but whatever.
Guest:Another uncomfortable character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that was my...
Guest:That's what I thought was my linchpin character.
Guest:And then Pat, because Pat wasn't very developed.
Guest:Like, it wasn't... But that was part of Pat, right?
Guest:Mia, I had a whole history for her.
Guest:Like, that was, like, my character that I understood.
Guest:And Pat was really more of a joke.
Guest:You know, like, it was a few jokes.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:I mean, I developed something for Pat later, but at the time that I auditioned, it was... So you did Mia Culpa, kind of Pat.
Guest:I did a character probably like my mom.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Well, how's she?
Guest:Um...
Guest:well she i mean now it's me but i think it's interesting because mia culpa and pat this sort of like you know very diplomatic kind of apologetic yeah mia's just mia talked like that and she was just i'm so sorry i oh i'm sorry i'm did you want water i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm saying i'm sorry so much i hate that i'm so sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry yeah so that was that character then i had is that in you though
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:It drives my husband crazy.
Guest:I can't tell you once, you know, every couple of weeks he'll look at me and say, will you please stop apologizing?
Guest:It's driving me mad.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:And it's so in me and it's, but it's not your mom.
Guest:No, my mom is actually no apologies.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So, but then my mom is more like, um, she's like Midwest, you know, like, although it's from Spokane, my mom is sort of the demanding, was she angry?
Oh,
Guest:you said she used to yell at your daddy a lot yeah but she's more um i'm so happy to be here i need you to get me three things a diet coke with a straw that bends uh and a bobby pin and a safety pin with a pink thing at the top yeah if you could quickly go get those three things and also i'm starving but i'm not eating any protein right now
Marc:So she's happy to be there, but she's got a lot of demands.
Guest:Right.
Marc:All right, so you go with these characters, and Dennis is there, and Phil is there.
Guest:Everybody's watching, yes.
Marc:And love it.
Marc:And what was your experience with Lorne?
Guest:Ugh, so complicated.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Because, you know, the thing is, I really still love him.
Guest:I still have approval dreams of him.
Guest:Oh, powerful.
Guest:And I wake up and I'm so upset about it.
Guest:Like, I'm so mad at my subconscious.
Guest:Yeah, so like... You know, like, where he's like, yes, that was a good, you know, whatever I've come up with.
Marc:Okay, so you go do the thing for... You go do the thing, the audition for everybody.
Guest:He was really nice to me.
Marc:He was there.
Guest:Yeah, he was there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's really nice.
Marc:Yeah, and then who told you you got the job?
Guest:I think it was my agent.
Guest:I think he probably said something cryptic like, we'll have you, I believe there'll be many Thanksgiving shows.
Guest:You know, like he said something that was like, I would be there.
Marc:Right, but not...
Guest:And then I remember when I got there, he gave me a gift of water glasses, like these really expensive water glasses.
Guest:And it was like, these will last you at least for the 10 years ahead that you will be on the show.
Guest:Like, it was so, like, really great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Really great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then, yeah, then I just seemed to disappoint him at every...
Marc:Really?
Guest:Well, no, I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Well, how is it, like, tricky?
Marc:So, like, you started doing... You were doing big parts right away, right?
Guest:Right away.
Guest:I had the most incredible... Like, my first show, Out of the Gate, I had big scenes, characters, everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I haven't figured out exactly what happened.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I feel like... It didn't get bad, but I left before my contract was up.
Marc:On your own volition?
Guest:On my own volition, which I think was like not what they didn't like that.
Guest:But in one whole year, I was not the comedic driving force of one single sketch in an entire year.
Marc:So you were put on the bench.
Guest:Yes, I was benched.
Marc:And you're living in New York.
Marc:Did you like that?
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I loved New York.
Marc:And did you, like, at that time where, so I imagine being someone who is, you know, a little hard on their self, you know, being benched for a year.
Guest:Oh, it was real.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I cried so much.
Guest:I cried, cried, cried, cried, cried.
Marc:And what, the writers weren't writing you in?
Marc:How does it work?
Guest:Well, I was, when I got on the show, there's this woman, Christine Zander, who was there, who's a writer from Second City.
Guest:Fantastic woman.
Guest:She's written on a whole bunch of shows.
Guest:We immediately became best friends.
Guest:we wrote every single sketch together, and then she left.
Guest:And so I, even though I was still cast in lots of things other people did, when she left, I just, there was just, it was almost like they felt like we were a team, and then why was I still there?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, like everything seemed to dry up.
Guest:And then also there was a lot of young men who were really...
Guest:like on the show that were like and some i like like david spade and a lot of them they all came when you were there but they didn't cast me well actually david spade i have to say wrote a couple things specifically for me that he wasn't even in like the greatest thing you could do for somebody that were really funny but like they would adam i would only be at the i could
Guest:a norm yeah and to me I was first of all I was a little older than them not that much but to them five years older and not being you know their idea of hot probably made me like 30 years older so like I couldn't get cast in anything unless I remember even though I like Adam Sandler but I remember moments where they go well all I can think of how to use you is the example of the unattractive choice oh no I know
Marc:That was said out loud?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, hard.
Guest:Really tough.
Guest:And when I look back on it, I think...
Guest:I couldn't, it was more than I needed, I couldn't, I wish I'd been tougher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wish I'd been like, fuck you, and just written my own stuff and pushed it through.
Guest:But instead I was like, I have to go lick my wounds for five hours now.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:You know, really hard.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that's that thing you were talking about in terms of like looking back, you wish you'd been a little more, not ambitious, but just sort of like confident.
Guest:Yeah, like I just think, you know, you're not worse than any of these other people.
Guest:Get in there and duke it out.
Marc:Did you feel like it was, did it become a boys club?
Marc:I mean, kind of, is that what it really was?
Guest:It was then.
Guest:I mean, and then it was like the heyday of the women came after.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, many years after.
Guest:Because.
Guest:I mean, several years after.
Marc:Because like Adam and David and like the guys who were writing for them.
Guest:And it was very sophomoric humor.
Guest:And I don't say sophomoric in a negative way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Adam Sandler's songs made me laugh really hard.
Guest:In fact, probably Adam Sandler made me laugh harder than anyone on SNL just goofing around backstage making crank calls and stuff.
Guest:But it was really not.
Guest:I can't think.
Guest:My humor doesn't come out of that.
Guest:And I don't know how to mesh with it.
Guest:And I actually don't even like it.
Guest:I wouldn't go to see it.
Marc:Like at a theater.
Guest:I wouldn't.
Guest:And so it was so wrong for me.
Guest:It was just I couldn't fit in.
Marc:Yeah, the whole tone of the show changed when you lost your one ally.
Marc:But this is the question is that Lauren just lets this happen.
Guest:well you know i feel like he's managing an ecosystem where he's letting things die and sometimes i think he probably looked at me like a flower that had bloomed and had now was no longer he just he just sort of like he doesn't really step in if the dominating force is successful comedically right and people are taking initiative he's like okay that's what's happening now uh yeah and actually
Guest:who's to say that's not the right way to be to survive for that show I mean and maybe I had stopped blooming like also like I wasn't thinking of sketches anymore in relation to that show like I wasn't like for years I was like oh this would be a funny bit or that would be a funny bit and then I just was thinking of bigger deeper things like I wasn't thinking that way anymore you were getting older I was getting older and grown up yeah
Marc:And there were other issues at hand.
Guest:I mean, now I'm feeling like I'm making this sound like, I got so mature.
Marc:And I don't even feel that.
Marc:But there's no reason to be ashamed of that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm telling you.
Marc:It's okay to outgrow SNL.
Guest:But you know what I didn't know?
Guest:I didn't know that that kind of excitement of being on that show and having this sense of being at the center of the universe with these huge stars coming in that you get to work with intimately for a week.
Guest:I really thought, even in my middling level of ambition, it was just going to keep being like that in some different forms.
Guest:And it really wasn't.
Guest:It was really over.
Guest:Like that part of...
Guest:That excitement, that feeling of walking out on a live show with that many people watching and that much on the line and nailing it or almost nailing it, that kind of high, getting those skills, rewriting stuff at the last minute, reading off the cue cards because you don't even know what's been written, that I thought was going to continue on in these other more deeper, more artistic forms.
Guest:And in some ways they did, but it was never that exciting.
Guest:I mean, nothing was as exciting as that.
Guest:I mean, that was just,
Guest:as showtime at snl yeah yeah and so i feel like that's something then you have to it's almost i always think it's like being in a war like post-traumatic stress yeah but in a like the camaraderie of war like in the positive way like we were in the battle we got out there this guy did this i did that yeah and then you spend the rest of your life going my life's so much happier now but nothing was more exciting than those battles
Marc:No, right.
Marc:Adjusting to real life.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, so when you were benched, it must have just been heartbreaking.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:And you had to get out of there.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because you didn't want to be the crying person.
Guest:Oh, I know.
Guest:And I cried so much.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:I wish I... I'm just mad at myself.
Guest:Like, what?
Guest:Stop crying.
Marc:Oh, give yourself a break, Julia.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Enough already.
Guest:I was like, oh, my sketches went cut again.
Yeah.
Guest:Like, when I think of that, I just want to slap myself.
Marc:But anyway.
Marc:But, you know, you had felt that high.
Marc:You'd been to the front.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know, but I mean, it's hard to have that perspective when the front is still happening, but you're not in the forces in the front of the front.
Marc:Well, that must have been the life struggle then.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I'm not trying to paint too big a picture about it.
Guest:I came back and did a lot of things that I loved and had a lot of fun.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You're not completely martyring yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I did a lot of much more satisfying artistic things.
Marc:What were those years like right after?
Marc:I mean, so you quit.
Guest:Well, then I got cancer.
Guest:My brother got cancer.
Guest:So that kind of took...
Marc:Reality stepped in in the worst way possible.
Guest:This is what happened.
Guest:I left SNL.
Guest:It's Pat was opening, which it's not like I thought it would be a huge hit, but I had no idea it was going to be like a 0% Rotten Tomatoes rating.
Guest:The example of the lowest rated film of all time.
Marc:So you get hit when you're down.
Guest:The movie opens.
Guest:I was in Seattle on opening weekend and an entertainment weekly was there.
Guest:I opened it up and the centerfold was like a picture of its Pat saying bomb of the year.
Guest:Like just, okay.
Guest:And then, and now I might be mixing up, but in within a month, let's say these things happen.
Guest:And my brother calls and he's been diagnosed with cancer and has no insurance.
Guest:And then I get cancer.
Okay.
Guest:So that was a bad leaving SNL year.
Guest:That was not a good year.
Guest:Horrendous.
Marc:So once you dealt with the cancer and once you dealt with your brother and then you dealt with the sort of bottoming out of your career, I mean, where did you get the fortitude to start?
Guest:Well, it was because of the NCAB.
Guest:Because the NCAB.
Guest:Because you were still living here.
Guest:I was living here, and Kathy Griffin was doing this thing called Hot Cup of Talk at the Groundlings, where it was kind of like an NCAB thing.
Guest:I never saw myself as a stand-up.
Guest:I never thought I could... Well, actually, I did take a class in stand-up, a class where they taught you to do stand-up.
Guest:And it was just terrible.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:Okay, so I wasn't doing stand-up, and I just didn't want to do stand-up.
Guest:And then Kathy Griffin said, come do this thing, and come to the NCAB, and just tell these stories, because...
Guest:I was dealing with my cancer.
Guest:My brother had cancer.
Marc:But how were you dealing with it?
Guest:I mean, was she saying that because... Because I had a lot of funny... Because my parents moved in with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My brother moved in with me.
Marc:With the cancer.
Guest:Who has the cancer.
Guest:Then my parents moved in with me to help take care of my brother, who my brother didn't want to talk to my parents or have them around.
Yeah.
Guest:And then we're all in my tiny little house and I'm driving my mom.
Guest:My mom has to feel like she's taking care of him.
Guest:So a lot of it was arranging for my mom to have the feeling that she was doing a lot of stuff.
Guest:And then my brother with his shit and having cancer and terrible.
Guest:So you're just telling Kathy this as a friend and she's like, you gotta... No, she's like... And so I remember telling her something like...
Guest:The way I did a bit about how my mom gets on an elevator, like she's surprised the tech, like, oh, the elevator's here.
Guest:Oh, oh.
Guest:And I was like, you know, my mom and Dustin Hoffman were born on the same day.
Guest:Do you think that Dustin Hoffman goes, oh, oh, the elevator's here.
Guest:We pushed apart.
Yeah.
Guest:like that yeah so she was like you got it because i just had to vent about my parents right so sunday night at the uncab just became this venting thing so i spent a year then i got cancer so i was able to talk about that and then at the end of the year i thought well i'll put like 40 minutes of this material together to kind of remind people to cast me in something so i kind of set up like a thing you weren't getting any gigs
Guest:I told everybody not to do anything because I was dealing with so much.
Guest:And also I was sick, and I had all my radiation and surgeries and stuff like that.
Guest:And so I was like, here I am back.
Guest:And then I did a thing at the Groundlings, and a lot of people were coming up and saying, you should do this as a one-person show.
Guest:Like, forget about trying to get cast on something.
Guest:Just do this show.
Guest:So that's how I did God Said Ha, and then I did it on Broadway, and then there was the film.
Marc:It was successful.
Guest:And it was very successful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:God, I'd never do it now.
Marc:No, you wouldn't?
Guest:No.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Did you find it as exciting?
Guest:No, it was totally exciting.
Marc:Yeah, but you did a couple, right?
Guest:Yeah, and then I did Letting Go of God.
Guest:That was actually the most artistically satisfying thing I've ever done, for sure.
Marc:How was it different?
Guest:Because it was about something I cared about more that was a harder topic.
Marc:And a little abstract and more emotional.
Guest:Yeah, and it took more writing skills to pull it off.
Marc:Because it wasn't character-driven necessarily, and you weren't talking about your parents.
Guest:It wasn't catastrophe.
Guest:It was really like, what is the philosophy of my life?
Guest:But entertaining.
Marc:But was there a moment where you realized God stopped functioning?
Guest:No, but there was a moment when I realized that I didn't believe in God anymore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How was that moment?
Guest:It was dizzy.
Guest:I felt dizzy.
Guest:I actually felt physically dizzy like I might fall down.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's because you were brought up pretty strict Catholic?
Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:We had a sense of humor about the religion.
Guest:People always want to say, you were so religious, and you weren't.
Guest:It's like, no, I was sort of quasi-religious.
Marc:But you took it for granted that God was there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I'd had all these experiences where I felt like...
Guest:you know, some, someone was looking out for me and it was going to be okay and all this kind of stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I realized that no, nobody's, nobody's looking out for me.
Marc:He left.
Guest:He left.
Guest:He's no, he never even was.
Guest:You had just made him up.
Marc:So there was a real, like a seismic shift in, Oh yeah.
Guest:Huge.
Guest:And changed my life in the biggest way of anything.
Marc:But horrifying at first.
Yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't say horrifying.
Guest:It was just very destabilizing.
Marc:Well, what was the adjustment you had to make?
Marc:Accept things as they were?
Guest:Yeah, I became mortal.
Guest:It meant that I could get run over by a car this afternoon and that's it.
Guest:But of course with that, it came all this beauty because the fragility of life is what gives it its poignancy and its immediacy.
Guest:So I got so much with it.
Guest:It's almost like I wasn't taking Valium anymore.
Guest:So life was as horrible and as beautiful as it is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Without the weird kind of there's something selfish about that type of relationship with God.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's so narcissistic.
Guest:And it's so hard now to even talk to people about it was just like I tried because I don't like feeling condescending towards people.
Guest:So I try to just get out of it.
Guest:When they start talking like that, I just think that's their coping mechanism, and I don't want to get into it with them.
Marc:Right, let them have it.
Guest:Yeah, let them have it.
Guest:I think it's a big drug that I think is ultimately unhelpful, although quite helpful in an emergency.
Marc:Or in periods of weakness or challenge, maybe?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think it was.
Guest:I think it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're okay with it.
Marc:So do you call yourself an atheist?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're one of them?
Guest:I'm one of them.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Do you talk to others gleefully?
Guest:Well, I mean, I'm not trying to convert anyone.
Guest:No.
Marc:Well, I mean, the tolerance of people's faith is a tricky thing for atheists.
Guest:It is, because there's such a dark side that most people don't see.
Guest:They just think of the positive.
Guest:Well, not just the history, but like, just people are so uninformed about it.
Guest:It's really just incredible.
Guest:About faith?
Guest:Yeah, and how religion, the insidious way organized religion works in our society, and even how anesthetized people are from reality, from even their new agey
Marc:friggin beliefs it just drives me it's just i have no tolerance for it but i also don't want to get in arguments about it like i know it's for me i'm not trying to tell them to do anything but that's one of the definitions of tolerance right is i'm not going to i will respect my desire not to just rail you for your ridiculous beliefs
Guest:Right.
Marc:Doing you a favor, letting you off the hook.
Marc:I don't need to do that to you.
Marc:But also, I've always thought, would it be relieving to talk someone out of God?
Guest:No, because it's so multifaceted in ways that I don't think they understand.
Guest:I think the people who really believe in God don't know all the ways that belief works.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think you have to really, and I know this sounds like I'm inflating my own self, but I feel like you have to be a very strong person to go there in all the ways, all the surprising ways it manifests itself.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, there's interesting things about acceptance, forgiveness, and the nature of faith that it does run pretty deep.
Marc:I mean, to really forgive and to really accept is some tough shit.
Guest:Yeah, it is hard.
Guest:Even though I think those words, like the whole forgiveness thing, I think is so overplayed.
Marc:I don't know if it is, because did you see that Philomena movie?
Guest:No.
Marc:With Judy Gage?
Guest:Oh, no, I haven't, but I have it.
Marc:You should see it.
Guest:But I haven't seen it.
Marc:There's a moment in there where she plays forgiveness to someone who oppressed her.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Where she, you know, and I can, if it's spoiling, whatever.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I know what the movie's about.
Marc:But that moment where she plays the fact that she forgave the woman that basically denied her a life.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The way she played it, where you could feel, you know.
Guest:But does the person want forgiveness?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:No, but in order for this person to live a functional life, to not- But why do you have to say forgiveness?
Guest:Why can't you just say, I'm letting it go?
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:I accept it.
Guest:But I feel like the whole forgiveness, why should someone forgive something for that?
Guest:They shouldn't be forgiven for that.
Guest:It doesn't mean you have to do anything about it.
Guest:You don't have to think about it even.
Marc:No, but I mean, the nature of forgiveness, isn't it about, you know, dealing, because it comes from anger.
Marc:I mean, letting go of anger is one thing, but to let go of anger without some kind of forgiveness, I mean, letting go and accepting on some level that equation equals forgiveness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It doesn't, you know what I mean?
Marc:I do.
Marc:You're not saying like you didn't do a horrible thing, but you know, I can't carry that.
Marc:There's nothing I can do to turn back time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, and, and, and the fact is, is that you've got your problems.
Marc:You're just a flawed person.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you know, whether you did it on purpose or what, how, what, for whatever reason you did it is not my business, but you did it.
Marc:And, and I've got to frame that somehow.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Cause I think there's, it's more of a sham just to let go.
Marc:Cause that'll sneak up and bite you in the ass.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I got over that.
Marc:And then one day something gets triggered and it's not resolved in your heart.
Marc:So, so that requires forgiveness.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, yes.
Guest:I feel like I grew up with a lot of my mom saying, you just need to forgive them.
Guest:Like it was lip service forgiveness.
Guest:Now, I feel like because I don't believe in free will, I can be empathetic with somebody and say, you know what?
Guest:You had very little control over... I didn't see Philomena, but the nun who did that probably isn't a very conscious person who probably didn't have a lot of...
Guest:Choice over how she was behaving.
Guest:And we could even go to how much choice anyone has in behaving.
Marc:That's right, but those are the steps of forgiveness.
Guest:Yes, and that way I can forgive.
Guest:It wasn't even you.
Guest:You were the forces beyond your control, created, made you this person.
Guest:We allowed it to happen as a society.
Guest:That's the real thing.
Marc:And I had no power over it.
Guest:And I had no power over it, and you didn't either.
Guest:And I'm not going to spend one more minute thinking about it.
Guest:I get that kind of forgiveness.
Marc:You'll go right up to the point where you say, I forgive you.
Marc:And you'll stop there.
Guest:I don't like saying forgive.
Guest:I do not like the word forgive.
Guest:I just think it happened.
Guest:It happened.
Guest:I'm not upset about it anymore.
Guest:I'm not going to think about it anymore, but I'm not going to say I forgive you.
Guest:I just don't get the forgive.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm bad about that, I guess.
Marc:Well, I think saying I forgive you is probably harder than saying I'm sorry.
Guest:What if you say I forgive you, and then one minute later, you're like, wait, I take it back.
Guest:I don't forgive you.
Marc:It's a wrestle.
Marc:It's a wrestle.
Marc:But asking for forgiveness, what about that?
Guest:No, I hate anyone who asks for forgiveness.
Guest:I want to slap them around the face.
Guest:Because I just think, don't be so needy.
Guest:Like, oh, so now you did this terrible thing and now you also have to get forgiveness from the person?
Guest:Give me a break.
Marc:Maybe that person is just taking responsibility.
Guest:That's like, can we just talk about me?
Guest:First I did a terrible thing and now we get to have another conversation with me and then I get to feel okay about it because you forgive me.
Guest:Fuck you.
Marc:Well, you don't have to forgive him.
Guest:I know, but then I will because I want to make him, I'm a pleaser.
Marc:So that's a real problem.
Guest:Yes, I forgive you.
Marc:So when did you, you adopted a baby?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you were alone when you did it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were just like, I'm going to do this.
Guest:I was in a relationship with somebody who I was really in love with, and he was not that into me.
Guest:But I was really into him.
Guest:For how long?
Guest:Two or three years.
Guest:You hung in there, huh?
Guest:I know.
Guest:When I go back, I think, he was a perfectly nice guy.
Guest:Perfect.
Guest:perfect one year relationship.
Guest:A perfect, if I just had the insight to say, it was a great year, oh my God, obviously we're different, there's no future, but what a year.
Marc:How can anyone do this?
Guest:But I wanted a kid,
Guest:And I wanted him to adopt a kid with me.
Guest:And he already had a kid.
Guest:I mean, he's completely reasonable.
Guest:He was having difficulties financially just helping with this kid he already had.
Guest:But I was like, I'll pay for everything.
Guest:But I can't adopt if we're not married.
Guest:So I was in this awkward situation where I had to be basically saying, we have to get married so I can adopt a kid.
Guest:And he's like, I don't want to be married or adopt a kid.
Guest:Like, terrible.
Marc:It was not conforming to your fantasy of what we needed.
Guest:And then we broke up and I just thought, screw it, I'll do it on my own.
Guest:And part of it was like my like...
Guest:Scarlett O'Hara, like, I will.
Guest:And it's amazing I did it on my own.
Guest:As I get older, I'm more amazed that I did that.
Marc:And what was the process?
Guest:Oh, just a lot of paperwork.
Guest:Yeah, just, it's easy.
Guest:I know people always say it's so hard.
Guest:I go, really?
Guest:I found it so simple.
Guest:You just fill out a bunch of forms and wait.
Marc:And you get judged as a good or a bad parent.
Guest:Well, they come and talk to you, but everyone gets, I mean, unless you're really a nut.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where's your kid from?
Guest:She's from China, from Guangzhou, China.
Marc:And when you do that, do you learn everything about her family?
Guest:No, nothing.
Guest:Well, she was abandoned at birth, so there's nothing you know about anything.
Marc:Oh, she was one of the female children.
Guest:And in fact, we just went at Christmas and visited her orphanage.
Guest:She was a year and a half when I adopted her.
Marc:They just leave them at the orphanage?
Guest:No, they don't because it was illegal to give up a baby for adoption.
Guest:It was like an impossible situation for the Chinese because there was a one child policy.
Guest:If you had a second child, you were fined up to like an average three years wages, which no one could afford.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Your family could inform on you and they would also be fined if a second child was found in the family.
Guest:So the whole family colluded to enforce it.
Guest:And then you couldn't give the children up for adoption.
Guest:So they would just abandon them in places where they knew people would find them.
Guest:so my daughter's story was that she was abandoned in this place and somebody took her to the police station and said i found this baby here but then they told me actually that could have been a relative who just made up that story right you know and took her to the so they weren't implicated right and then she was taken to the guanjo orphanage wow and and you got her at what age about well she's about 17 months almost a year and a half uh-huh and how old is she now
Guest:14 and a half.
Marc:How's she doing?
Guest:Oh, she's great.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, she's good.
Guest:She's a camper.
Guest:That's why I'm here.
Guest:Because she was eight when we moved to Chicago, and she'd been going to this camp, Riverway Ranch Camp, near the Sequoia National Forest.
Guest:And she has all her friends.
Guest:They go every year.
Guest:So now every year, I come out here for a week before, and I put her on the bus, as I did on Sunday.
Guest:And she goes off to camp.
Marc:And you found a man, too.
Yeah.
Guest:Then I found a man.
Marc:How old was she when you found a man?
Guest:She was six and she was eight when we got married.
Marc:And how'd you meet him?
Guest:His brother came to a letting go of God.
Guest:Well, actually, no, I don't even know if that's true.
Guest:He might have heard it.
Guest:Or no, he came to see the show.
Guest:Anyway, he wrote me a fan letter.
Guest:And the fan letter, the headline was desperately seeking Sweeney-in-law.
Guest:And he said, I'm writing to propose marriage to you on behalf of my brother.
Guest:I would propose myself, but I'm gay and I live in San Francisco, so I don't think it would work out.
Guest:But my brother is the perfect man for you.
Guest:and blah blah blah about his brother who's a scientist and um his big deal breaker with women is they cannot be religious in any way um so you're the person for him and i was actually writing on desperate housewives at the time i was a writer on the show and it was this weird funny letter and i showed it to the guys in the office next to me and we all laughed but i thought but i'm not gonna i wanted to write it's a good letter but i'm like i'm not gonna meet your brother because like call my brother yeah
Guest:But he didn't know that the letter was being written.
Guest:Anyway, so I did nothing about it.
Guest:Many months later, I was doing Letting Go of God in New York.
Guest:And I came out and this woman who had been at the show, we kind of ran into each other at the lobby.
Guest:She wasn't even waiting for me.
Guest:She goes, a friend of mine, a really good friend of mine wrote you a letter, you know, six months ago, proposing marriage on behalf of his brother.
Guest:And I was like, oh.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she goes, I just want to vouch for those two brothers.
Guest:I've known them since junior high, and they're really funny, and you should write the brother.
Guest:And I was like, maybe I will.
Guest:And she's like, you should.
Guest:And I was like, maybe I will.
Guest:But I still did it.
Guest:And then...
Guest:Six months later, I was doing Letting Go of God Again here in L.A.
Guest:And I came out after the show and I was talking to people in the lobby and there's this handsome guy there and he goes, I wrote you this letter a year ago proposing marriage on behalf of my brother.
Guest:And I said, I go, oh, God, that's right.
Guest:I go, I'm sorry I never wrote him.
Guest:And he goes, no, I'm glad you didn't write him because he's an asshole.
Guest:And I said, what?
Guest:And then he told me that when his brother found out that he had actually sent me this letter and everything, he had gotten so angry and they had had a falling out and weren't speaking.
Guest:And he said, my whole family is so mad at me over this letter now.
Guest:And in fact, my mother came out from D.C.
Guest:and she saw your show, but she won't even talk to you because this letter.
Guest:And I was like, oh, my God, we should meet your mother.
Guest:So we went...
Marc:So now the natural sort of like, let's try to make this right.
Guest:No.
Guest:So then I met the mother and she was hilarious.
Guest:She's like, you shouldn't be talking to us.
Guest:I told him that, you know, you were going to call the FBI on him.
Guest:This is creepy stalking.
Guest:And I was like, no, the letter was well written.
Guest:It was it was a well written letter.
Guest:And then she said, well, I don't get involved in my son's lives at all.
Guest:I'm standing out of this whole thing, but I would make a fabulous mother in law.
Marc:She gives you the pitch.
Guest:And actually, she was hysterical.
Guest:I was in love with her and the brother immediately.
Guest:I went home and then I really wrote to Michael to say, don't talk to your brother.
Guest:It's no big deal.
Guest:It was a funny letter.
Guest:It's just a lark.
Guest:Don't no big deal.
Guest:And then he wrote back a few days later.
Marc:This is not emails.
Guest:No, this is all emails.
Guest:And then he wrote back three days later and the headline was, I am mortified.
Guest:And it said, I had just hoped when I found out this letter had been sent that you had some efficient assistant who would just delete a letter like that.
Guest:So sorry to take your time.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, don't worry about it.
Guest:And then we just emailed and emailed and emailed.
Guest:And then he came out to L.A.
Guest:to visit and he was cute and smart and funny.
Guest:And then we got married.
Marc:That's a great story.
Guest:So that's how.
Guest:I got a husband.
Guest:And then he has a business in Evanston.
Guest:He makes scientific equipment.
Marc:So that's why you moved out there?
Guest:So that's why I moved there.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then we'll move.
Guest:I still have my house here, so we'll move back in four years when Mulan goes to college.
Marc:That's a great story.
Guest:Yeah, it's good.
Marc:So you still insist on working in show business for some reason?
Guest:Yeah, I'm working on my little projects.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Like what?
Yeah.
Guest:I'm writing a book of fiction and a screenplay to go with it right now that I'm hoping to develop.
Marc:And this book, this came out, this just came out?
Guest:This was last year.
Marc:One thing, this is your mother?
Guest:Yes, that was last year.
Guest:But this is essays?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That you wrote for the book?
Marc:You've been publishing essays?
Guest:No, I wrote for the book.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You like it?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I'm out of the personal life business.
Guest:I feel like it's... It's hard, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was fine while it lasted, but I think once you have a kid... Yeah.
Guest:Because I tell stories about Mulan in there that she goes up and back about whether it's okay or not.
Marc:Yeah, no, I know.
Marc:I've run against that.
Guest:So I asked her in advance, but when you're asking an eight-year-old if she cares if you write... It's not even like asking a person.
Guest:And I know that's unfair, but of course I want to write it because it's funny and...
Guest:And then I have guilt about it.
Marc:Yeah, I had that issue with my dad and my girlfriend when I wrote my memoir.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's so, even though I love memoir, like your memoir, I loved it so much.
Guest:Like I felt so close to you and I love it, but I don't want to provide it anymore for other people, for myself.
Marc:Well, it's hard because, you know, it's hard not to feel exploitive of your personal life.
Marc:And you are.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then it's also like, you know, like I'm very sort of candid about everything.
Marc:And then, yeah, I like the relationship I have with fans and I like what I'm doing.
Marc:But but then he's really start to wonder.
Marc:It's like, what is private?
Marc:What isn't?
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:Well, yeah, because it's all.
Marc:And then the people that are in your life, they're like, what is private and what isn't?
Guest:No, it's creepy.
Marc:It becomes a trust thing.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No, it's terrible.
Marc:It's a really... And you're lucky you got a husband because now I don't have anybody.
Marc:And my book's out there.
Marc:My show's out here.
Marc:What crazy woman is going to volunteer to be... Well, except look how I met my husband, which is fantastic.
Guest:You never know.
Guest:It could come through...
Marc:having done that like if i haven't done that i'm more than willing to make a agreement you know like i've learned my lesson yeah in that department like you know i'm a little more uh i hold back you know like like there's some things i got to keep to myself right because you don't know how it's going to pan out i went out what about when you know it's so funny
Marc:Well, it's so hard.
Marc:But I think in retrospect that, you know, with some distance in the moment, like I made a big announcement that I was in love with somebody and it was all going to work out and it lasted five months.
Marc:And then I'm like, now what do I do?
Guest:You know, you have to just say it didn't work out.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But then it's like, it's not fun.
Marc:It's not a great story.
Guest:No, it's terrible.
Yeah.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:But that's life, right?
Guest:I know, but see, I guess what I'm saying is I feel like I'm out of the game.
Guest:The personal confession thing, I'm out of the game.
Guest:I want to be in fiction now.
Guest:That's what I'm interested in.
Marc:Are you confident?
Guest:But I hope people like you keep doing what you're doing because I love it personally.
Marc:I don't know how to do fiction, so you're in luck.
Guest:I don't know if I can do fiction, but I'm enjoying what I'm doing now.
Marc:So we'll see how it turns out.
Marc:It's new to you, the idea?
Guest:Well, just the idea that you can make stuff up, that you can just take these characters and you can just make up their backstory and make up everything.
Guest:It's so much fun.
Marc:It must be fun.
Guest:Yeah, it's fun.
Marc:I've never tried it.
Guest:I bet you'd be good at it.
Marc:You do?
Marc:I just feel like my imagination is really limited to fear-driven things.
Marc:My imagination is limited to dread fantasies.
Guest:Yeah, but there's a lot of things you can write about that in fiction.
Guest:You could use that.
Guest:But I guess in general, I feel like parents are fair game to me.
Guest:If Mulan decided to be a stand-up and just trash every single personal thing about me,
Guest:I think that's fair game.
Guest:I just think your parents are fair game.
Guest:I think your kids are not fair game.
Guest:I don't think your spouse is fair game.
Guest:And now I have a kid and a spouse and they do funny things that I know would kill.
Guest:But I can't do it.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:I know it.
Guest:Because I value them more.
Guest:I think it would corrupt our relationship in a deep way.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, this is a grown-up moral decision you're making against comedy.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:No, I guess I will probably be less funny for making that decision.
Guest:But I'll probably be happier.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Marc:Good luck with it.
Guest:Oh, thank you so much.
Marc:Thanks for coming by.
Guest:I feel like I talk too much.
Marc:Stop it.
Marc:Wasn't that nice?
Marc:Wasn't that a nice pre-Thanksgiving talk?
Marc:Rhett Miller on Thanksgiving.
Marc:Thanksgiving with a song.
Marc:With a troubadour, Rhett Miller.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com.
Marc:I imagine already, by the end of this broadcast, which is now, that those mugs that Brian made are gone.
Marc:But we're restocking the store.
Marc:restocking the store with shirts and stuff.
Marc:I pulled out another pedal that I don't know how to use for my guitar time.
Guest:¶¶
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Turn it down!
Marc:Boomer lives!