Episode 500 - Marc Maron
Marc:Hey, it's Mark.
Marc:Welcome to the 500th episode of WTF.
Marc:Where's the theme song?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Well, I wanted to do something different.
Marc:I can't talk and play at the same time, so this is really difficult.
Marc:But I wanted to do something different.
Marc:Because I've heard that theme song about 500 times now.
Marc:And I love that theme song.
Marc:I love our opening music.
Marc:It's a great composition.
Marc:I didn't play on it.
Marc:And I'm not saying it's going away.
Marc:It's not going away.
Marc:But I thought for the 500th episode of WTF, I should do something.
Marc:I should do something different.
Marc:I should try something.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And one thing that I've never done, I don't think.
Marc:What haven't you done, Mark?
Marc:I've never done this.
Guest:and make it my own over there.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fucknicks?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What the fuckaholics?
Marc:What the fuckaristas?
Marc:What the fuckleberry thins?
Marc:What the fuckrakers?
Marc:And, of course, what the fuckminsterfullers?
Marc:What the fuckanucks?
Marc:What the fuckanavians?
Marc:What the fuckaricans?
Marc:All of you, guys.
Marc:All of you.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It is the 500th episode of WTF.
Marc:And I know I changed the tone at the beginning because I wanted to change the tone at the beginning.
Marc:This is going to be a very personal show.
Marc:It's going to be a personal celebration and not so much a look back, but a look at the present 500 episodes.
Marc:And I couldn't be more grateful for all of you people who listen to me.
Marc:I couldn't be more grateful for what's happened in my life.
Marc:But problems remain.
Marc:But I have changed.
Marc:I think if we look back, if we look at the record, I'm a different man than I was when I started.
Marc:And many of you have grown up with me over the last five years.
Marc:2009.
Marc:Five years.
Marc:Really?
Marc:God damn.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:It's been about five years.
Marc:Almost five years.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:So a lot of you have been here since the beginning.
Marc:And some of you just coming in now.
Marc:Or whenever you came in.
Marc:Or even if you don't listen to this part of it.
Marc:I hope have registered a change in my disposition.
Marc:Now this show...
Marc:I know a lot of you were thinking like, who's it going to be?
Marc:Who's going to be on the 500th?
Marc:Who's going to be the big guests?
Marc:What are we going to hear?
Marc:But after all was said and done, we realized my partner, Brendan McDonald, myself, Brendan, who has worked with me for years since I first started doing radio when I was not a child, but I certainly didn't know how to do radio.
Marc:He's now a full time producer of WTF.
Marc:And we started talking about it and we thought, well, why don't we just talk about where we're at now?
Marc:Where are we at with the show at 500 episodes?
Marc:I mean, it's an amazing thing.
Marc:I have no idea that I would do 500 episodes of anything, let alone something that seems so important to me and to other people.
Marc:It's very overwhelming to me that this is all happening, that my life has changed so dramatically throughout the course of this show.
Marc:That's something that I did out of desperation in my garage changed my life entirely.
Marc:I now have a television show, which is something I never thought I would have.
Marc:My stand-up has become more relevant.
Marc:I think that we changed, not single-handedly, obviously, but my timing was right for once in my life.
Marc:And the medium of podcasting has now become viable and popular and a lot of people are doing it.
Marc:I think that the tone of honesty and seeking authenticity and expression is culturally relevant now.
Marc:I'm not responsible for it, but it seems that, again, perhaps my cosmic timing was right and things were ready for change.
Marc:The struggle I have is that what is the risk?
Marc:What is the risk?
Marc:I mean, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this.
Marc:You all know that I've had a problem with my father because of my television show, because of things I've said in the book.
Marc:Many relationships have been strained and broken because of what I do with my form of expression, whether it's on stage or whether it's here in the garage or whether it's in writing.
Marc:And I don't know that many people do what I do, or perhaps they don't do it quite the way that I do it.
Marc:And I'm not saying that necessarily is a good thing.
Marc:I've had discussions with like David Sedaris about the nature of using your family or using people in your life.
Marc:Maybe I'm not as I can't do it as non-toxic as he can, but but it is difficult.
Marc:And that's my biggest fear is that is the price that I pay for being the type of person I am and doing it my way or this way.
Marc:Am I ultimately going to end up alone?
Marc:Am I going to frighten away every woman who is possibly going to want to spend their life with me because they don't want to be talked about?
Marc:Then do I have to censor myself?
Marc:It gets a little tricky.
Marc:I don't know how frightened I'll become of speaking frankly about my relationships with people, but I try to do it in a general way, but it still gets me into trouble.
Marc:Does this sound like a celebration?
Marc:Look, it is.
Marc:But this is where I'm at now.
Marc:I've got a heavy heart.
Marc:I've got a heavy heart about things I've said publicly.
Marc:I've got a heavy heart about the strain that my honesty and the nature of how I express myself has affected people.
Marc:But do you keep going on?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Of course you do.
Marc:Is it worth being alone?
Marc:Ultimately, will I be?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But the other elements of this 500 show that I want to share with you is that, you know, it's celebrating the idea that you can do something on your own, that you can evolve as a person, that you can build a business out of nothing.
Marc:I'm not a businessman.
Marc:I don't know how Brendan and I put this together.
Marc:I don't know how.
Marc:Ultimately, I've grown to be able to make somewhat of a living out of my garage.
Marc:Many of you know the story, the desperate beginnings of WTF and where I was at.
Marc:But there was a moment where I realized that not only was the show going to be great and not only was was it.
Marc:going to work and was the work worth it but that i wasn't alone in the world that i i think that many of you know that when i started the show i needed a lot of help i needed help emotionally i had gone out to see i'd become cynical and and depressed and uh and and completely in my mind uh irrelevant i was in some sort of show business siberia and there was this moment i had early on with uh with bob odenkirk and many of you know him from uh
Marc:Mr. Show with Bob and Dave, but I'd known Bob a long time and I'd always been envious of him.
Marc:And I'd always thought that he was one of those guys that had his shit together and that he never had any of the stresses that would derail him career wise.
Marc:And this was a fairly common thread throughout the early WTFs is my deep resentment and my deep need to sort of humble myself or to at least get some
Marc:you know, emotional traction in the world.
Marc:So I would talk to people I knew.
Marc:And it was hard with Bob because I do have a great deal of respect for him.
Marc:And I always thought that his ambition and his focus and his creativity was just something I didn't possess and that he didn't live with the same problems I live with.
Marc:But there was a moment during that show that was sort of the portal
Marc:to what WTF became and to what I became as a human being.
Marc:It all sort of hinges a bit on Bob Odenkirk.
Marc:You know what I sensed about you, though, because of what you're saying specifically, is I think I was that insane at one time.
Marc:And I think that you don't indulge that at all.
Marc:Like, if those people are around you, you will sort of like, okay.
Guest:A lot of self-preservation.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But also, I'm pretty crazy too.
Guest:I got a lot to, I got a lot of, you know.
Marc:But you're not destructive.
Marc:Do you feel like you are?
Marc:I mean, you don't seem self-destructive.
Marc:I think you're right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it seems that... Dude, I don't know.
Guest:I got my own battles to fight.
Guest:You know, they're not... They may not be alcohol or pills.
Marc:But just the level of self-criticism.
Marc:Rage.
Marc:Rage.
Marc:Yeah, you got the rage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, frustration, rage.
Guest:I think, you know, in a weird way, one of the things I've been facing up to...
Guest:And I've always known this is true.
Guest:So many things about yourself that you someday have to confront are things that you always knew.
Guest:Oh, yeah, they're sitting right there.
Guest:Someday I'm going to have to deal with that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then the day comes.
Guest:Yeah, and you're like, ah, damn it.
Marc:I thought I wouldn't have to.
Marc:The line is drawn by you or someone else.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The fact that he battled with rage and the fact that it was something we had in common, I don't know why it seemed so abstract to me, but it was.
Marc:And and that sort of began this tone of kindred spiritness of that.
Marc:We're all carrying a certain burden, whatever it is.
Marc:And that helped me like that moment for me was I don't know if you can hear it, but it was it was it was like a few good men when when when Jack Nicholson, you can't handle the truth.
Marc:Like there was a mind blowing moment there that this person that I put up on a pedestal.
Marc:And revered and envied as a peer was struggling with anything.
Marc:I don't know why I couldn't see that or why I didn't assume that.
Marc:But I didn't.
Marc:And God knows that I struggle and God knows that I continue to struggle.
Marc:But things are OK right now.
Marc:And sometimes I have no perspective of that.
Marc:And I don't know where I came from and I don't know exactly exactly.
Marc:I don't always know how I got here.
Marc:I don't always have perspective.
Marc:Even the people in my family, how they register it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I know my father's pissed off, but I don't talk to my brother about stuff.
Marc:And my brother Craig is, you know, we've had a brotherly relationship.
Marc:It's been up and down.
Marc:It's been difficult at times, but we're okay now.
Marc:And I've never really talked to him at all about what he thinks is going on here in my life.
Marc:Let me see if I can get him on the phone.
Guest:Hello.
Marc:Hey, buddy.
Marc:Can you hear me?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:So, Craig, how you doing, man?
Guest:I'm doing good.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Just working.
Guest:Everything's good.
Marc:That's good because, well, that's nice to hear because I don't really have time for your problems right now.
Guest:I'm glad we're getting out of the way early.
Marc:Yeah, I'm happy to hear you're doing well.
Marc:I guess my questions are, since obviously no one has known me as long as you have, being my brother, there's a couple questions.
Marc:Now, were there periods in my...
Marc:In my life, like I know we were always close, but there were times where you were doing your thing and I was doing mine.
Marc:Were there periods where you thought like, uh-oh, Mark's in trouble.
Marc:I don't think he's going to pull out of it.
Guest:With respect to your comedy or just in general?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:We can go macro and micro.
Guest:All right.
Guest:You know, I never... When we were young, I had the little brother, big brother thing going.
Guest:So even when you were...
Guest:When you were dodging trouble and dealing with the family, it never occurred to me that it was good or bad.
Guest:You were just my brother doing your thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The only thing I really worried about, Jim, was when you were in L.A.
Guest:dealing with a comedy store.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think the reason I worried then was because I'd come out and spend a couple days with you.
Guest:And they were pretty heavy days.
Guest:And I felt that my responsibility was to be at your level.
Guest:And whatever that took, I was going to make that happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when I came...
Guest:When I came home after that weekend, it took me about two weeks to get my head straight.
Guest:And it was in that moment where I realized what you were living through, and I had some concerns.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, so, you know, and obviously we've both been through our struggles with this stuff, but do you, like, you know, in the last few years, have you noticed a difference in me?
Marc:Have I evolved or changed?
Marc:Am I moving in the right direction?
Guest:Yeah, there's been a tremendous change.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I talk about you, it's amazing to me and awesome that you have found your niche in the world and your success is coming from actually having a genuine, a sincere, genuine interest in other people.
Guest:Because that's...
Guest:That's not that hasn't been your past, as you know.
Marc:Wait, wait, wait.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm not sure I do know that.
Marc:So you're saying that in the past.
Marc:So it's surprising to you that my success is built on my ability to be there for other people.
Marc:Not not so much what I used to be like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's your sincere interest.
Guest:and other people from everything i see in here that has given you the success you have and that's why people like to be in in your garage because you have a real interest in them and that's uh you know i i haven't that's not the view that that i saw growing up really who was who was i interested in you were uh
Guest:you're interested in, in you, I think would be that, you know, I'm talking later, you know, from college on, but the caveat there is, you know, my memories of us growing up as brothers, that regardless of what was going on, when it came down to certain situations that, that needed, that needed to be resolved, whether it would be a Twitter, whether we were in trouble or, or,
Guest:You stepped up and you knew how to be there for us and for me.
Guest:I didn't need to say that.
Guest:So you weren't, you always, from a brother standpoint, you have always been there.
Guest:But from what I know, that hasn't been the case for other people in your life.
Marc:Well, okay.
Marc:So do you think that, well, I'm glad that I've grown in that way, you know?
Marc:You know, there's a fictionalized version of you in one of the episodes this year, and I know you watched a little snippet of the guy I had play you last year.
Marc:Does any of that make you uncomfortable?
Yeah.
Guest:No, no, he's tall.
Guest:He's thin.
Guest:He's handsome.
Guest:I have everything that strive to be.
Guest:So it's all good.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Well, I hope that that sticks now.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So now, like the one issue I'm having, obviously, and we both know is with dad and in general terms, I haven't spoken a lot about it to my audience other than we're we're at odds with each other.
Marc:And and I don't know if it's resolvable.
Marc:What do you think I should do?
Guest:This is a tricky one for me because he's my dad, too, and I know the dynamic.
Guest:So I think the right thing at the end of the day is for us to have some space to...
Guest:I don't want to say forgive, but to have some space around it, it is what it is, to not carry resentment and hate about it.
Guest:That said, it doesn't necessarily mean engage at any real level.
Guest:It just means to let go of some of the resentment.
Guest:Again, having said that, it takes very little for me to jump on the anger wagon and say, you know,
Guest:you know, hell with all that.
Guest:But ideally, I think we need to have space around it and just let it be with a very cautious engagement.
Marc:All right, cautious engagement.
Marc:All right, okay, I live with that.
Marc:All right, man, well, I love you, thanks.
Guest:I love you too, brother.
Guest:Bye-bye.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:So I guess he does sense a change.
Marc:There is a change in me.
Marc:Well, I worry, and I've told you this before, I worry that my relationship with you, my listeners,
Marc:is more comfortable and more emotionally comfortable
Marc:well-rounded and deeper than relationships I have with people I've known for years.
Marc:Because they have to deal with the full brunt.
Marc:They have to deal with, you know, some paralyzing insecurities that I have sometimes.
Marc:They have to deal with, you know, anger.
Marc:They have to deal with the sort of the dead zones, the erratic behavior.
Marc:And this is really the centerpiece of my 500th episode.
Marc:And this is sort of a long time coming.
Marc:My friend...
Marc:Well, we weren't friends for a long time, but Steve Brill is a guy I went to college with.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And I know some of you, cause if you listen to me, you've got to have this type of relationship in your life.
Marc:I'm, I'm a fairly myopic guy emotionally.
Marc:I'm very intense and very sensitive and I run pretty deep, but I'm, I'm myopic.
Marc:I'm, I'm narrow that all I really need is one good friend and, and they're in for it because I need a lot.
Marc:Now, I met Steve in college and we wrote together.
Marc:We were best friends.
Marc:We took trips together.
Marc:I came out to L.A.
Marc:very early on after college to write and work with Steve.
Marc:I mean, we have had a friendship since it's been since when?
Marc:Since like 84, 85.
Marc:But there was about a decade there and it's been on and off.
Marc:where I just couldn't stand them.
Marc:We did things together that you guys don't really know about, and you're going to learn about here a little bit about my past.
Marc:But my jealousy and our emotional tension was profound through all of it.
Marc:And to get back to somewhat one of the themes of the show is that the character...
Marc:In the projections episode of season one of Marin, the Eric Stoltz character was based on Steve.
Marc:I'll admit that it was based on Steve and it was based on our relationship.
Marc:He went on to create the Mighty Ducks one and two.
Marc:He directed Heavyweights.
Marc:He did a few Adam Sandler movies.
Marc:He had a fairly huge career in show business and don't think I didn't resent it.
Marc:Because quite honestly, the first time I did stand up comedy was with Steve Brill.
Marc:I was in a comedy team in college and that's where it all started.
Marc:And I'm going to talk to Steve now because he was upset about the Eric Stoltz thing.
Marc:And quite frankly, he was upset about a lot of things.
Marc:But this is a part of my life and a relationship in my life that I don't think I've shared with any of you.
Marc:And there needs to be some work done within it.
Marc:And I'm going to talk to Steve Brill now, the film director, but also my original comedy partner.
Guest:I should find those pictures of us.
Marc:Which one?
Marc:Well, you have pictures of us.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And I have pictures of us from that cross-country journey we took.
Guest:Yeah, New Mexico, Raphael Silver Cloud.
Marc:Raphael Silver Cloud Lounge.
Marc:Is it still there?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:They put a casino out there.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so Steve Brill is here, and...
Marc:I'm not sure what we're going to try to do.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:Well, the reason you're here is because you are the first person I did comedy with.
Marc:We were best friends in college.
Marc:We did stand-up together.
Marc:The first time I ever did stand-up, it was you and me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But how did we become friends?
Marc:Because now you've gone on to direct many movies, write movies, have a very prolific and lucrative career that I resented for decades.
Yeah.
Guest:It's not that lucrative.
Guest:You never knew.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:You resented all the wrong things.
Marc:I did?
Guest:Always, yeah.
Marc:Okay, well that's good.
Marc:How did we meet though?
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:In college, I really don't.
Guest:I try to think about it.
Guest:We weren't roommates.
Guest:You were down the hall.
Guest:You were friends of a friend.
Guest:I don't remember how except you were that crazy guy.
Guest:yeah or cool guy you're actually pretty cool you were pretty cool until you get to know until i got to know you yeah you were kind of that awesome guy because you also i think you were a leather jacket guy for a while yeah beginning black leather jacket i had one of those yeah a good one yeah good yeah boots maybe black jeans but then i got very preppy at some point yeah you did get preppy and i got kind of like a hipstery oh yeah yeah you went through all of them
Marc:But I just don't remember.
Guest:I don't remember first meeting you.
Guest:It was probably, again, through Brad, your roommate, I knew, and then you were hanging out.
Guest:And then we clicked on some level, which had to be comedy, had to be that you were a kid who had Albert Brooks albums and Woody Allen albums, which were a sort of currency for guys like us to talk about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:that was fun and then music you know because you also had a guitar the stones right yeah and you were just i was a very poor guitar player but a high school player and you were kind of advanced and i that was awesome and so we would jam and we would talk comedy and you were cool but like how did we like i do remember that we there we were friends yeah so we had that we were funny and you were but you were very hollywood to me
Marc:From what I remember, you had a lot of your dad's clothing that he didn't wear anymore that you seemed to- Who was my dad?
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:Harry Cohen from Hollywood?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:No, but I just mean like your clothes were kind of- Old man clothes?
Marc:Not old man, but you seemed Hollywood to me.
Guest:What is Hollywood in 1980?
Guest:Well, your hair was always combed properly.
Marc:Oh, it was?
Marc:Yeah, kind of.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And then... I was trying to do some sort of throwback look, I think.
Marc:I admit you, after you had done some theater, that's right, you were a year ahead of me, and you directed some plays, and that was interesting to me.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:And then I think before we even did the stand-up together...
Marc:You cast me in that play, that Anne Ryan play.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As the cop who hangs around in the lobby.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were the lead in that play.
Marc:And that caused... I feel like that was before we did stand-up.
Marc:We did theater together.
Marc:We ran around with those stage troupe people.
Marc:Mike Chiklis did fine.
Guest:Chiklis was there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so I feel... Okay, so you and I hit it off.
Marc:And then we, for some reason, we're...
Guest:We hit it off, and the comedy thing came.
Guest:I remember it so distinctly, one of those few exact moments.
Guest:I don't have to sort of recreate or reimagine it.
Guest:I was going up the escalator at Warren Towers, which is the big dorm room, which had this big two-story escalator.
Guest:I was going up, and they would post things all the way up, so you would just see flyers everywhere.
Guest:And then the flyer directly ahead of me was a little thing hanging down.
Guest:It said, HBO Campus Comedy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Need comedians.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it sort of also made you think like, oh, are they talking to us or is that we're going to go see it?
Guest:Or maybe it's an audition.
Guest:And I literally reached up and grabbed the ticket.
Guest:They had those ripped tickets to call this number.
Guest:This is how showbiz worked back then.
Guest:And we called a number.
Guest:And I remember my first thing was, I know I can't do this alone.
Guest:How can I do this?
Guest:I don't have the guts or the material to do this.
Guest:And I immediately thought of talking to you about it, not knowing if you would be into it or-
Guest:right but i went running over and finding you i said look look yeah tv i mean hbo which was fledgling at that time which wasn't like it was pretty it wasn't nothing yeah i mean it was what that was 1982 yeah they'd maybe done a few right uh things but uh but it was right it was hbo live on campus comedy right and catch a rising star was involved yeah yeah yeah and you come over with this thing and we're like well we got to write an act
Guest:We got to do an act.
Marc:And we wrote like five or six sketches.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then we started performing them in front of our friends.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My sister was there in college and we performed in front of her in her sorority house.
Guest:We did?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh my God.
Guest:And they said, they just stared at us like- They did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they said, oh, good, good.
Guest:I don't remember that at all.
Guest:And our sketches were, they were just doing sort of characters, like stereotypes of the Jewish American
Marc:Princess.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We were at the Jewish American princess funeral.
Marc:Funeral.
Marc:Like two Japs looking at their dead friends.
Marc:And then there was, I remember there was one about- Tripping on the moon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Being on acid on the moon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then there was one about, for some reason we did how the word, the N word was invented.
Guest:Yes.
Yes.
Guest:We were so edgy.
Guest:Cutting edge.
Guest:It was ridiculous.
Guest:Well, we also did punk rock.
Guest:We sort of did a survey of the kinds of characters that we saw, so we related to our surroundings.
Guest:There were punk rocks, there were Japs, there were rich kids, preppies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think we just sort of did a survey of trying to impersonate them or make fun of them.
Marc:Was it like five sketches, four?
Marc:Five sketches.
Marc:I remember three.
Marc:I remember the tripping on the moon.
Marc:We were a punk.
Guest:You were a punk.
Marc:Oh, the two punk guys.
Guest:Who were angry.
Guest:They were trust fund punks, I think was the idea.
Guest:Okay, that was the joke.
Guest:Where we got to scream and say, fuck this, fuck that, fuck Reagan.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay, so you and I, we put this stuff together.
Marc:Then we go to this audition that was like not at BU.
Marc:No.
Marc:It was somewhere else.
Marc:It was like BC or something.
Guest:Yeah, or Emerson.
Guest:Yeah, one of these places.
Marc:In like a classroom.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And we do the thing and they love it.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:Right?
Marc:We kill them.
Marc:I remember there's some woman there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we do well.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But they don't give us the show.
Guest:They do give us the show to the point where we celebrate a little bit and we say we got the show.
Guest:But they said we're alternates.
Guest:Remember?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we went to the taping sort of thinking we might get on.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So, okay.
Marc:So here's what happens.
Marc:So they don't, we feel bad.
Marc:We go to the taping.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then they tell us, well, look, you can come to New York and perform at Catch a Rising Storm.
Marc:Rick Newman himself, who is very nice.
Marc:He's still very nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Rick Newman says you can come and do it.
Marc:And it's like, that's it, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We're going to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't remember what the time span was.
Marc:Oh, dude, we forgot the whole.
Marc:No, we did not get that show.
Marc:Here's what happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you remember this?
Marc:No.
Marc:We auditioned, and they were like, we love you.
Marc:We want to see you in front of a comedy club audience.
Marc:And then they put us on at the Comedy Connection, and we tanked.
Guest:Oh, God, that's right.
Guest:So bad.
Guest:That knocked me out of the game.
Guest:That performance, that's right.
Guest:We tanked.
Guest:I knew I would never make it.
Guest:We tanked.
Guest:Horrendous.
Guest:Yeah, big audience.
Guest:Big pact.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ate it.
Marc:And we were bumbling over each other.
Guest:The worst kind of bomb.
Guest:I almost darted off the stage at one point and left you there.
Guest:The worst bomb.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they were like, look, you guys are maybe- Not ready.
Guest:That's so funny that in your brain, you were like, we were alternates.
Guest:In my brain, we fucked it up completely.
Guest:I don't even know which is true.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:They had no intention of putting us on.
Guest:We were very close.
Guest:Then we fucked it up.
Guest:In the comedy club.
Guest:And then as a- Maybe it was just being nice.
Marc:As a concession.
Guest:Concession, which they didn't have to do.
Guest:They said, when you're in New York, we'll put you on a catch.
Guest:And we were like, that's our break.
Guest:We've made it.
Guest:You mean there's a chance?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then I remember we made the trip to New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it was also at that time, didn't we also meet someone who wrote at SNL?
Marc:Because I remember- Yeah.
Marc:I don't remember which trip was which, but I think we went down to New York to do our Catch a Rising Star Spot, and we met someone who wrote at SNL.
Guest:I remember her name, Pam Morris, for some reason, was connected to someone.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Morris or Morris?
Marc:Something like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And somehow we had access, which is so funny because when you're young, you don't think you're allowed access to any of these people or things.
Guest:They just exist in this impenetrable bubble and world.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And we got a little access.
Guest:We're like, oh, this person is a cousin of someone.
Marc:Right.
Guest:We can get our stuff in through them.
Guest:And this was a dream though.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So we go to New York and I don't remember like at all, maybe it's two different trips, but we go to Catch a Rising Star.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They put us on late.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we do the fuck Reagan bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was it?
Marc:James was- No, but the-
Guest:The story was, and this was a big deal to us, and it was a proper night, too.
Guest:I don't think they were like, it wasn't a... It wasn't packed or anything.
Guest:Well, it wasn't not packed because it was packed enough there was a crowd and we were about to go on.
Guest:This is 100% true.
Guest:We were just about to go on.
Guest:We had our act down.
Guest:I guess we were super nervous.
Guest:And it wasn't, for a good story, I would say Secret Service, but it wasn't.
Guest:It was the owner of the club, or the manager came over and goes, you gotta know, this is James Brady's first night out.
Guest:He's coming in, they're gonna roll him in in a second.
Guest:This was after the shooting in 1981, so you could find out it's just seven months of his recovery.
Guest:He wants to laugh tonight.
Guest:He's out.
Guest:You're going to happen to be performing for him.
Guest:So the Secret Service asked if there's any material that you want to reconsider or anything like that.
Guest:And literally our first stupid piece was me getting on stage and some guy in the audience heckling me, which was you, going, fuck.
Guest:I'd be like, oh, we have an angry young man out there.
Guest:No, fuck angry young men.
Guest:And it all wound up with him going, Reagan.
Guest:And us both would go, fuck Reagan.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, it was so- Did we do it?
Guest:Did we do it?
Guest:We did it.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Oh, yeah, we did it for James Brady.
Guest:And they rolled him in, and he had kind of a permanent smile probably because of the-
Guest:Stady was in, so you couldn't tell.
Guest:I would have thought that the idea would be not to do that, but we did it.
Guest:We did it, and I'm sure you said we're doing it.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I'll take it.
Guest:No, but this becomes you taking a stand for sure.
Guest:Maybe one of the first times you said, I don't care what the audience thinks.
Guest:Might be the defining moment where you just said, I don't fucking care.
Marc:The night that led me to waste 20 years.
Marc:Could have been.
Marc:All right, so then, but here's what I remember.
Marc:I remember we'd go to my grandma Goldie's house, and they're not home.
Marc:I don't know where they were, but we were staying there, and we wrote SNL sketches.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:We sat there, and we wrote a package, and you were like, this is it.
Marc:And then we sent them in, nothing.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:We pursued it.
Marc:But see, I forgot this whole part of my life, that as I get older, I think that you always knew that show business was a business, and it was a business that people get in, and there was different levels to it.
Marc:I mean, you grew up out here.
Marc:I didn't.
Marc:Kind of did.
Marc:No, I didn't.
Guest:Well, you had your uncle.
Guest:My mom moved here when I was 17.
Guest:We grew up in Florida, remember?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:A real sur... I know it doesn't fit the narrative you want to tell, but I was like you.
Marc:Because by the time I knew you, you had an uncle who was a plastic surgeon.
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:I had the craziest uncle in the world who's still around and lives out here, but that was just... My mom moved out here to work for him, and I was 17, and then I would spend that first summer out here, and that's where I got exposed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I feel like you were locked in.
Guest:I was Mr. Hollywood.
Guest:I was.
Guest:You were?
Guest:I was, but it was only that summer.
Guest:I didn't grow up here.
Guest:I took my mom's car.
Guest:My dad, my uncle was a, yeah.
Guest:Is that?
Guest:I can't say what he was.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he was a crazy person.
Guest:He was one of the first founders of the AA chapter out here.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:The one that started.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:But didn't stick, I guess.
Guest:It did stick.
Guest:Once he got in, he stayed in.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:But he used to take me.
Guest:This was also that summer before I met you or whatever.
Guest:I would come out and he would take me to AA meetings.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It was so fun.
Guest:I saw Richard Pryor perform at the AA meeting.
Marc:I saw Richard Dreyfuss.
Guest:I saw all these people, so it was also a great experience for me.
Guest:I pretended I was on drugs.
Marc:Oh, that was terrible.
Marc:But, okay, so in my mind, though, you knew show business, and so here we were.
Marc:We were going to do this, submitted this package, and I don't know if I was prepared for anything.
Marc:You and I had done theater together, whatever, and then you leave.
Marc:We didn't get the gig on SNL, obviously.
Marc:And then you graduate.
Marc:And then I decide to pursue solo stand-up.
Marc:And I do a summer of it.
Marc:The summer that you left.
Marc:I think that you came back and we still had another year of hanging out and fighting and arguing over women and fucking having falling outs.
Guest:I think we tried to do a Stitches show or something.
Marc:We did?
Guest:I think we tried to react back together.
Marc:Oh, you did solo stand-up.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:We both did solo and we watched each other at Stitches.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It was horrible.
Guest:It was horrible.
Marc:So you're doing solo standup.
Marc:I'm doing solo standup.
Marc:And then after a summer of that, I couldn't hack it.
Marc:And then you went away.
Marc:And then I did the rest of the year.
Marc:And then I came.
Marc:And then my first instinct was to move to Hollywood with you.
Marc:We're going to write.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the plan.
Marc:I was going to move in with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had set up a real nice place for you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In Culver City.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:It was so sad.
Marc:It was.
Guest:Romantic sad?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Just sad, sad.
Marc:Well, it was a big apartment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I got here and I felt like you were already locked in.
Marc:It was sort of like you'd been here a year, you were hanging out with Berg and Mendelssohn, and who were some of the other characters that you were like, definitely you had a crew.
Marc:And at that time, I didn't understand that that's what you needed to do in Hollywood.
Marc:That's what people do here.
Guest:Everyone, yeah, they get in clicks or clues, survival sort of.
Guest:Yeah, because you had them in college.
Marc:But also, it's just the way the business works.
Marc:If one guy's like, he wants to be a producer, the other guy wants to be an agent, you want to write scripts, you all come up together.
Marc:Hopefully, someone gets in that you can go like, hey, remember?
Guest:That's how it works.
Guest:It does.
Guest:I guess, yeah, it did fall out that way.
Guest:I didn't think it was on purpose, but yeah, I wound up with Pete Berg, who's now a director.
Guest:He was an actor at that time.
Guest:He was a guy I knew.
Guest:I took you guys' first headshots.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You did.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You have our headshots.
Marc:So here's what happens.
Marc:So we go to Culver City.
Marc:I go to Culver City.
Marc:I move in with you.
Marc:This is like part of my career in life that people don't really know about.
Marc:So I move out here.
Marc:I've already got a little bit of a coke habit.
Marc:And you're running around with your pals.
Marc:I'm trying to re-engage because I'm a very demanding friend.
Marc:I don't like you having other friends.
Marc:I don't know why they don't like me.
Marc:I'm going to cause trouble.
Marc:Like right away, I was a problem.
Marc:I was drinking and we'd go out together and I didn't know how to hang out with a group of people.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Correct.
Guest:I'm so ready to take responsibility, too, but you keep going.
Marc:No, but in retrospect, I know that to be true.
Marc:I would go, ugh.
Marc:I just didn't know how to have fun.
Marc:And I started to realize I'm sort of a chore on this guy.
Marc:But we wrote.
Marc:You remember?
Marc:I would get up, and I would drink.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I would pour these drinks that I didn't even want, and we'd sit in that fucking room in that apartment, and we wrote a screenplay that I think had already been written or something.
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:You had a great idea, and I guess when I got out there, I had a commercial mindset, even though I wanted to be a playwright.
Guest:We studied playwriting.
Guest:We wrote a play.
Guest:Yeah, we wrote a play.
Guest:That was a big deal.
Guest:That was a big deal.
Marc:That was the best thing we ever did.
Marc:It was.
Marc:We were in college.
Marc:You were studying with Derek Walcott and his playwriting thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you and I basically extended our stand-up in a way that I think what we did with that play outside of just writing it is that we did the best we could as a stand-up team.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because we played two aliens who come down to earth as old Jews, I think.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And to see how everyone's doing and to find a new Jesus.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's a one act.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And we put it on.
Marc:We packed it.
Marc:I mean, we had a lot of friends between the two of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was very funny.
Guest:It was.
Guest:We did it at Derek Walcott, who is this genius East West Indian poet, playwright.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't think he was a genius?
Marc:He's a good poet.
Guest:Well, someone thought he was great.
Marc:Of course he is.
Marc:I mean, it was fairly amazing.
Marc:He was just very intimidating.
Marc:He was very intimidating.
Marc:And if you didn't have tits, it was difficult to get his attention.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, we got him from Harvard because he was one of the first sort of sexual discrimination lawsuits.
Guest:BU used to get all these people, like great people as castaways.
Guest:But we dug in with him and he had enough clout to set up a theater.
Guest:And then we were, I was a little pretentious playwriting student.
Guest:I didn't really think- You were a pretentious in general.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then, but he, the funny thing about Derek is he loved, I thought we were going to be studying his thing, his expressionistic theater, his stuff from the 60s.
Guest:He was a guy who was like, oh man,
Guest:I love that Alf and you were like what he goes Alf is such a well written show and you're like oh okay how about this Leroy George he's like oh man do you know anyone who works on Hill Street Blues he used to tell me and I was like it was so weird these great artists um
Guest:So he encouraged us to do a show.
Guest:Everyone else was doing these wild, pretentious shows.
Guest:And we did this straight ahead, Sunshine Boys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Stand up.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And we killed it.
Marc:It did good.
Marc:It did good.
Marc:We wrote these nice pieces, these nice bits.
Marc:Fast forward.
Marc:I'm living in your house.
Marc:I'm doing blow.
Marc:You know, you're living the life.
Guest:You're drinking in the morning.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That was so exotic, I have to say.
Guest:Because we were all young guys and partied and stuff.
Guest:But the first guy to drink in the morning is the strange thing to see.
Marc:I don't want to characterize it like that was my habit.
Marc:I think I was doing it for effect.
Guest:You were.
Guest:You were doing a lot of things for effect.
Guest:I mean, and a lot of, but Coke and things in the morning was when, and not sleeping, and you sort of, I felt, got into this darker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, certainly the comedy store was to come, but.
Marc:Well, let me, I'm going to explain your responsibility in that, and maybe we can resolve this.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I do not really like the email exchange we had.
Guest:The recent one?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Eh, what's this stupid?
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:All right, so we write that script.
Marc:The idea was a guy takes their bad brown acid at Woodstock, right?
Guest:Your idea, by the way, a great commercial idea, and it's not like you were an anti-commercial guy, but all your ideas.
Guest:I remember you begrudgingly come and go, this is pretty good, I think, because I was still trying to crack the code of commercial as I have my entire career.
Guest:I think I had started thinking about the Mighty Ducks by then, and you said, oh, this idea, this guy takes brown acid and-
Marc:And he goes out.
Marc:He goes into a coma.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he wakes up in the 80s, I guess it would have been.
Marc:And it was a Rip Van Winkle story.
Marc:Yeah, it's great.
Marc:And he goes back to retract his friends.
Marc:So we wrote every day and we did the whole sort of... But I think Cheech and Chong made us... He did later.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As I knew with a great idea like that, someone would do the 60s version.
Guest:This was 1980.
Guest:It was 20 years past the moment.
Guest:It was kind of the perfect time to do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So we did all this fun.
Marc:We wrote this whole scene to them.
Marc:Cut a long, strange trip.
Marc:Yeah, the long, strange trip.
Guest:It was funny, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and we wrote it and we took time and then we went and met with agents.
Marc:But by the time, my recollection is by the time we were meeting with agents and actually got some attention, I was like, fuck you.
Marc:Fuck this.
Marc:I can't fucking live with you.
Marc:I can't talk to you.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Ah, sorry.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I do.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because I was not... I don't know that I understood that show business was a business.
Marc:I don't think I understood myself.
Marc:I think I was incredibly jealous of your ability to have relationships with Pete and with the business in general.
Marc:I was raw material, man.
Marc:And I was completely... I didn't know how to get an apartment.
Marc:I remember after we had the falling out...
Marc:basically what happened and i don't know what the timing was is that pete needed a place to live and you and pete were buddies and pete is this big gregarious like you know bullying fucking dude who i got along with yeah but all of a sudden you're like pete's moving in oh yeah you gotta sleep on the couch if you want to stay so pete moves into where we wrote and now i'm the guy in the couch and you guys would come home with chicks and wake me up oh
Marc:Oh, you know, like I remember like one time you guys were out partying and all of a sudden Pete and you and two girls walk in and you put on, you know, NWA and I'm like in my underwear and a blanket and you're like, what's up, man?
Marc:Then Pete's like, show me some guitar.
Marc:You know, it was like a fucking monkey on the couch.
Marc:Just a nightmare.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, the headshots, it was sort of funny because Pete was just wanting to be an actor and his big idea at that time was to do a documentary about Prince.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so I took his headshot, which he said he used for years.
Marc:I used mine too.
Marc:You did?
Guest:I still have it, yeah.
Marc:We just went outside, did pictures.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's a car going in my ear in the headshot, too, because it's literally out in the street.
Marc:Then I go back.
Marc:I had that weird thing happen where just by coincidence, I was doing PA work, because you told me I could do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I got into some circuit with that.
Marc:And I got a job as a PA on a comedy store thing, and Mitzi remembered me.
Marc:And that's when she was like, yeah, you can be a doorman.
Marc:It was because it was just coincidence.
Marc:So then within weeks of moving into that girl's place, I'm hanging out at the comedy store.
Marc:I'm doing coke.
Marc:I'm drinking her liquor.
Marc:I ended up trying to make out with her one night.
Marc:And then they had an intervention.
Marc:Her boyfriend and all her friends came to that house down the hall from you guys to throw me out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So then now I got no place to live.
Marc:And then that's when I end up at the comedy store.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I forgot about that little moment there.
Marc:And that was like the end of us.
Guest:In the building and out of the building.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was the end of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I went into the fucking dark hole, into the Kennison land.
Marc:And I don't know what the fuck happened with our relationship, but I have to assume I was pretty fucking mad at you for whatever.
Marc:And you were probably pretty mad at me because we could have gotten an agent.
Marc:We could have been screenwriters.
Guest:Oh, for sure.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:At that moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the Pete thing was, he was a big personality.
Guest:I was, I don't know.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:The male sort of hierarchy, how it can shift around and stuff.
Guest:And the one thing I like to say I hate more than anything is bullying.
Guest:I mean, a lot of my movies are really just anti-bullying movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you were bullied a little, I think, which makes me sick to say.
Guest:I mean, not in a physical way, but just in that jocky fucking, you know.
Guest:Clicky way.
Guest:Maren fucking Maren.
Guest:Well, I felt that.
Guest:And I am conscious of that.
Guest:I don't want to take too much responsibility.
Guest:I want to shift as much as reasonable.
Guest:But I will take some because that does not make me feel good.
Guest:And I did apologize for that aspect of my personality.
Marc:Yes, you did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you wrote me a letter and we fleshed all this stuff out.
Marc:But I think that the weirder thing about the dynamic was that now I was in this fucking dark castle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was doing a lot of coke.
Marc:You and I were on the outs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't remember what really happened.
Marc:I know that I went back to Boston for years, and I don't remember seeing you much.
Marc:I remember coming out at some point, and you just bought that half-finished house in Beverly Hills.
Marc:Which I still live in.
Marc:Did you finish it?
Marc:Yes, I finished it.
Guest:and you had your lives and moved through it yeah and i like one of the first times we hung out again i remember i was out by the pool and you were telling me about this movie you were writing for dennis leary and emilio estevez yeah and i was like where's my part you were a bit of a an oddity at that point a little bit yeah i was scared of you at that point because you had exhibited enough of the like you got oh your face is so funny right now
Guest:You open the door and the vampire Marin comes in and it's just like, you're in for it.
Guest:Whether it's, you know, he's going to be drunk and coked out or yell at you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I wasn't used to being yelled at.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:When was that?
Marc:I was at the comedy store and I met you and fucking Sandler for like a hamburger.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And, you know, and I was doing my shtick where I'm like, yeah, I'm just hanging out, dude.
Marc:And then, like, I remember distinctly because Sandler, I'm telling drug stories and Sandler turned to you and goes, you're not into that, are you?
Marc:To me?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was this weird moment where, like, you had to choose allegiances because you really weren't into it.
Marc:But, like, you know.
Marc:Drug, drug.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We all smoked pot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, but I was out of my mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like, yeah, not really.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:He's like, well, that must be the beginning of that relationship.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know what i mean yeah i did not remember that moment but that's an important moment of me choosing to subjugate a part of my person i wasn't into coke i had done plenty no i know yeah but yeah i guess i did sort of does that make sense to you maybe yeah as a dynamic i know i felt it like you know like all right that's you know oh yeah well i wasn't yeah again that lasted a while my allegiance to another
Guest:Another dude, which led to another cult-like sect of guys working together, excluding you.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't know how I would have fit into that.
Guest:Again, I will always say, I always try just like the Mighty Ducks 2.
Guest:Mighty Ducks 1 was that I had to handle myself, but once I had power in Mighty Ducks 2...
Guest:To my credit, I don't know why.
Guest:I did want you in it.
Guest:I wanted you to get a SAG card or something.
Marc:You did.
Marc:You got me a SAG card.
Guest:Yeah, but it wasn't easy.
Guest:What do you mean it wasn't easy?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was so funny.
Guest:That was your first movie.
Marc:I was sweating.
Marc:You were sweating.
Marc:Your first directing.
Marc:What's that guy's name?
Marc:Who was the producer?
Marc:Jordan Kerner.
Marc:Jordan Kerner.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm sweating.
Marc:I'm in my trailer going, don't sweat through your valet outfit.
Marc:What?
Guest:Tell them the role.
Guest:The role was simple.
Marc:Angry valet.
Guest:Angry valet.
Guest:The ducks, who are these misfit kids in Beverly Hills, are their fish out of water.
Guest:They run into an angry actor, screenwriter, whatever, which is great, who's the valet guy who pretty much says, this fucking town.
Guest:But, you know, whatever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You got to know somebody to get in anywhere in this town.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Right, because you're like, all right, the ducks are going to show you.
Marc:But it was a simple scene.
Marc:I'd never been on a movie before, but a lot of balls had to be set in motion.
Marc:Like there was a Maserati driving out of the garage.
Marc:Right on Rodeo Drive.
Guest:Right on Rodeo Drive.
Marc:People were moving.
Marc:The ducks had got to be moving.
Marc:It was a movie, as you know.
Marc:And I remember the first two takes, I just fucked them up.
Marc:You fucked them up.
Marc:And then you eventually came up to me and was like, it's not that big a part.
Yeah.
Guest:You had been up all night.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:And this is the thing.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, that's the thing with me too.
Guest:And it's another fault is that- I wasn't living in LA though.
Marc:I must've come out for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you must've come out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was always a little afraid that you were going to embarrass me, which is not, you know, which is another sad thing to- But that's been from the beginning.
Guest:Yes, but you've always fulfilled that fear in me.
Guest:You've always come through.
Guest:But the fact that I should be embarrassed is a weird thing.
Guest:But on a movie set, you were my guy.
Guest:I wasn't setting you up to fail.
Guest:It was easy.
Guest:I was trying to set you up to succeed.
Guest:But then I could tell the night before you didn't sleep, you were staying at my house.
Guest:I remember you were drinking Jack Daniels.
Guest:Is that possible?
Guest:Because I remember the square bottles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you fell asleep in the trailer.
Guest:Movies take a while and it was hot.
Guest:It was a Sunday.
Guest:And you were watching religious television all night.
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:That's so odd how you remember those details.
Guest:You were watching preachers and you were on some preacher rant about the just impossible fraud of organized religion.
Guest:And I was just like, I hope this doesn't, I don't need him to use any of this for this role.
Guest:I need him to say his line and do it.
Guest:And he don't access anything.
Guest:Just say the line and get your side card.
Guest:Just do it, Mark.
Guest:Blows to first takes.
Guest:I get the tap on the shoulder from the producer looking at me like, we're not going to spend a lot of time on this.
Guest:And I'm like, no, no, let's give it another shot.
Guest:And the kids, the ducks, one of them was like Kenan Thompson, by the way.
Guest:Do you know that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they're looking at you going, this guy is overdoing it a little.
Guest:Because when you did do the role, you were like, man, you did.
Marc:You came up to me and you said, look, you're scaring the ducks.
What?
Guest:You were.
Guest:That's the famous line.
Guest:You're scaring those.
Guest:You channeled Dennis Hopper or something for a one-line role.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And you brought way too much heat to a Disney movie.
Guest:And I got cut out.
Guest:You did get cut out.
Marc:So what happens?
Marc:You go on to direct that, the Mighty Ducks 2, which you wrote and directed.
Marc:No, I didn't direct.
Marc:You just wrote the first one.
Guest:Produced and then- And then you get into the Sandwork camp.
Guest:Yeah, no, it was Judd.
Guest:I didn't work with Sandler.
Guest:I'd known him before, and Judd was the guy that I hooked up with first who hadn't done anything really.
Guest:It was a friend of Sandler.
Guest:I knew him through him, and I went to him just like we were doing.
Guest:Judd was sort of living in a similar place in the valley, and I thought he was super talented, and I had this idea for a fat camp for school, and I really liked that idea, and he wrote it with me.
Guest:And then Sandler movie, I was writing for Sandler or with Sandler sort of as a guy.
Guest:I was, Sandler hadn't even really, hadn't worked with him, but I was doing Big Daddy rewrites and then he had this idea for Little Nicky that he was writing and he brought me in.
Marc:That's where I remember.
Marc:I was like, that's our play.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Some part of me thought like, those are our ideas.
Guest:Really?
Guest:A little.
Guest:Really?
Guest:A little.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:completely now in the most insane, sad way that you would have thought that.
Guest:Because as you know, ideas overlap like crazy.
Guest:But yeah, that's right.
Guest:There was part of me that thought like- But it was his thing.
Guest:I didn't bring that to the party.
Guest:I rewrote his entire fucking run on that.
Guest:Or we worked together.
Guest:So the foundation had nothing to do with our play.
Guest:But I can understand because it had that sort of humor of a guy coming to New York and being exposed to all these different people.
Marc:So you did Little Nicky, and did you write Mr. Deeds?
Guest:Yeah, I wrote and directed Mr. Deeds after that.
Marc:That was a big one.
Marc:Little Nicky didn't do that right.
Guest:Little Nicky was a disaster.
Guest:It changed the stock offering for Time Warner.
Guest:It was a disaster.
Guest:I mean, God bless Adam Sandler, as many people will say.
Guest:He brought me into that process.
Guest:I was writing it with him, and then one day he'd been interviewing all these directors, and I'd been in the room too, which was really interesting.
Guest:He could have thrown you under the bus.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:So the way I got hired on that, I was writing it with him, and I was writing, oh, this 5,000 demons go into Central Park, and then he'd bring in John Landis or someone to meet.
Guest:And Sandler's kind of like, you know John Landis?
Guest:I go, oh, fuck, yeah.
Guest:You guys want to be in the meeting?
Guest:Part of me is like, that's not cool to have some schlub in the meeting when you're supposed to be meeting him.
Guest:But I was like, I want to meet John Landis.
Guest:And so he'd do the interview about it.
Guest:So we'd see all these big directors and I'd just be sitting in the corner going, I hope he hires John Landis or Joe Dante or one of these guys.
Guest:And Sandler, for whatever reason, would vibe on him and be, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then he turned back to me and we'd start writing again the story.
Guest:And then for some reason, he just turned to me and goes, why don't you direct it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was writing 5,000 demons.
Guest:And then I go, 500 demons.
Guest:I go, five demons go from the... And I go, okay.
Guest:Because I was so out of my element with the $80 million movie with the hottest actor in Hollywood who hadn't missed yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wedding Singer, Big Daddy.
Guest:And then this was an $80 million movie.
Guest:No comedy would cost.
Guest:It was like Ishtar level fucking movie.
Yeah.
Guest:And me, who was writing it, and I just said yes.
Guest:I tend to say yes to things, which is an attitude which you take, which usually works out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was a disaster, unmitigated disaster.
Guest:Sunk New Line, sunk Warner Brothers, sunk me.
Guest:You did that?
Guest:I like to take half credit.
Guest:I'll give Sandler half credit.
Guest:No, I'll take the credit for the bomb, and when things are going well, I'll take credit.
Guest:But yeah, it sucked.
Guest:I was dead.
Guest:No one would hire me except Adam Sandler.
Guest:That's why we love Adam Sandler.
Guest:Who knew, yeah, who said, and then the next movie was Mr. Deeds, and he took his director from Little Nicky and goes, I want Brill to direct Mr. Deeds, and I want to give him a huge raise.
Guest:And it only speaks to how big Adam was as a star and as a good guy, and they hired me.
Guest:And that one did well.
Guest:That one did one of his best, and then I was back.
Guest:But I was not given full credit, nor should I have been for that.
Guest:I was a guy who could be plugged in, could be useful, could be- Guy that makes me like Adam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, how could you not like Adam?
Marc:Well, no, my thing with Adam Sandler was that-
Marc:It wasn't that I didn't like him.
Marc:For me, it was all about like, you know, it just seemed like the comedy was easier for other people and that things were easier for other people that I couldn't really, I didn't really love his comedy.
Guest:You saw his comedy go stand up?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it was just too cute.
Marc:He was too confident.
Marc:It was just jealousy.
Marc:And I'd run into him on the street one time and he complimented me and then someone came up to him and wanted his autograph and he sort of iced me.
Marc:Everything became very big.
Marc:But this is where I think you and I really go south is that
Marc:I was angry and doing comedy, and I did a bit, and I did it on Conan as well, but it was really not a dig on Sandler in my mind.
Marc:It was a dig on the cultural phenomenon of Sandler.
Marc:So in my mind, I separated the two.
Marc:Why shouldn't he be able to?
Marc:So I do this joke in Rake's reference to Adam Sandler fan.
Guest:What was the joke?
Marc:It was really just about...
Marc:It was really a cell phone joke about how Beethoven had no idea that eventually his vicinity would emit from someone's pocket, you know, and the response would be like, oh, fuck, it's my mom.
Marc:And then it was like, you know, that it was some riff on some kid on a skateboard with his hat turned backwards, you know, like in like Adam Sandler fan, you know, was it was a descriptor.
Guest:No, it wasn't.
Guest:I mean, I remember a Howard Beale-like rant against him systematically lowering the standards of the country.
Marc:Yeah, that's possible.
Marc:I think that was part of the bit.
Guest:You didn't do that on Conan, I don't think.
Marc:Oh, no, you did.
Marc:I think I did.
Marc:You did do something.
Guest:It was all part of it.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:Commentary.
Marc:I do that at the improv and then I walk outside and you walk out and I think I knew you were there.
Guest:You invited me.
Guest:That was the part of your sickness is you would invite me.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yes, because as far as I'm concerned, you would set me up a lot.
Guest:To do this.
Guest:I mean, to any power you felt you had, you would bring me in.
Guest:And like, look at what I'm doing.
Guest:And then insult me directly and then say, how could you be insulted?
Guest:Which you knew I would be insulted by you.
Marc:Well, I think in my mind it was like, I did the real thing.
Guest:Oh, that's true too.
Marc:I did stand up.
Marc:You couldn't take it.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:You couldn't hack it.
Guest:I could not.
Guest:You pussy.
Guest:That burned me for sure.
Guest:Did it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How could it?
Guest:Because I failed at it.
Guest:I admittedly, this is maybe the one thing I don't think I was any good at at all.
Guest:And you had that life and you were the one man show, which I always envied and still envy, the fact that you access yourself and I access a world of ideas and other people and stories.
Marc:I wish I could do that more.
Guest:I wish I could do what you do.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:Are we going to start writing again?
Guest:Let's go.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:I think that was always our dynamic though, that you had this sort of ability to be charming and control the situation and keep your cool.
Marc:And I was like, bleh.
Guest:yeah and it was always a dynamic that we had and that night outside the improv you invited me there and i wanted to support you because even though maybe to be honest a part of it's like a pity support at that point because you were like fucking no i mean you sweaty you were sweaty and i dragged other people i might have dragged judd or someone like that there too really yes yes yes because i you know you because you were like he's a comic you should see him
Guest:No, even what I felt personally, which is a good dynamic with you too.
Guest:You want to help them out.
Guest:You might have a thing with somebody, but still you'd be like, all right, look at this guy.
Guest:He's my guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I brought people there.
Guest:You brought people.
Guest:And then literally it was like- You brought people.
Guest:I'm sure I did.
Marc:And literally you get up there and you're doing okay.
Marc:No, but I remember I was probably doing well and I knew you were there.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it was just sort of like- Exactly.
Guest:And I just turned it.
Guest:You pulled the cord.
Guest:You turned it into a bit of a rant, which-
Guest:for somehow it was directed and i didn't even see the joke and i just know the blood drain from my face i don't think sound that was there obviously not yeah and i remember being invited and i remember you walking outside and just fucking going hey man yeah like a fucking shit head i was like you're like hey man like knowing that i was it was such a loaded moment
Guest:Like, how am I supposed to react?
Guest:And I took the bait.
Guest:I was measured.
Guest:I go, you know, I don't get that piece, man.
Guest:Why would you say that?
Guest:And I have this stupid thing about comics ragging on other comics, you know.
Guest:I go, why would you say that?
Guest:Oh, yeah, because I said it's his home turf.
Guest:In his home club.
Guest:That freaked you out.
Guest:You'll have to explain why that freaked you out.
Guest:But I go, I said, why would you do that?
Guest:You know he's my friend.
Guest:It's not fucking true.
Guest:And why would you say that in front of all the people, his home club?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And why would you say that in front of me?
Guest:What do you want to fucking say?
Guest:Now, I might not have said it too articulately or clearly, but you decided you were ready and you jumped on top of my energy by 150% of that and immediately started an assault on me.
Guest:Outside the fucking...
Guest:Improv near that phone booth.
Guest:I'll never forget it.
Guest:You're like, you motherfucker.
Guest:And you just let it fly.
Guest:Do you remember going off on me?
Guest:No.
Guest:You did.
Guest:To the point where, and I've never had the point for it, where I saw you on top of me like some fucking cartoon of a guy.
Guest:Like over you?
Guest:Over me.
Guest:My body had extended when I was yelling to your head.
Guest:You were, and you were letting it all hang out.
Guest:I'm not exaggerating.
Guest:And I had to look up because you were so on your toes and in my face.
Guest:And I remember literally sort of taking my right arm back going, do I have to hit Marc Maron?
Guest:Which is a place I would never go with you.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:But I literally thought it was a part defensive part.
Guest:Like this is so escalated that it's going to end in violence on a street in front of a comedy club.
Marc:What ended up happening?
Guest:Oh, you separated.
Guest:You did a fuck, fuck, fuck.
Marc:And I split.
Guest:Turning, wheeling, turning back.
Guest:Really?
Marc:And was there other people around?
Marc:There must have been other people around.
Guest:You backed yourself off because you knew it was a crazy moment.
Guest:There were people around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I walked away.
Guest:And honestly, quite honestly, whatever that was, I walked away and I remember walking down towards Stanley going, I think that's, I got to give Mark a break.
Guest:I mean, in my arrogant way, I was like, I have to put Mark on the bench.
Guest:But really, I was like, him and I can't hang for a while.
Guest:And that's, to me, a real divide that ended at 10 years of isolation.
Marc:It was just a decade of rage at your success.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so in my mind, I'm like, he's a Sandler stooge.
Guest:Yeah, understandable.
Guest:That was how I framed you.
Guest:When did he become his?
Guest:I think I might have said that to you.
Guest:You're a Sandler stooge.
Guest:Yeah, posse, like, yeah, entourage guy.
Guest:I like stooge.
Guest:Stooge is fine.
Guest:A lot of people could be called that, and I'll accept it, but I never looked at myself, though.
Guest:I always thought I was an integral part of whatever we were doing.
Guest:Sure, it's a group effort.
Guest:Yeah, but he definitely was the cult of personality built around him.
Marc:I mean, things happened after that.
Marc:I mean, we must add some sort of truce.
Marc:And I like I guess it was in and out, but then not until like the first season of Marin.
Marc:I'm like, well, I'm going to call Steve and see if he wants to.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Isn't that the first time we saw each other in years?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Was when?
Marc:When did you come over?
Marc:I emailed you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:On the podcast that started and just got out in the public like the New York Times article.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And I hadn't talked to you in years and I saw that and I read that and then I listened to a few and I was like, wow.
Guest:It's such an interesting experience knowing you back then.
Guest:Hit the pause button, come back.
Guest:And then there's an engaged, intelligent...
Guest:Mark Merritt, or not compassionate, whatever.
Guest:You were so- You can say compassionate.
Guest:Yeah, well, listening, the listening aspect.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:And that part of you- You don't want to give me compassion.
Marc:Something, it was different.
Guest:At the end of the day, are you compassionate?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, good.
Marc:I think I'm more empathetic.
Guest:Empathetic, genuinely interested person, which wasn't my necessary experience, but you were interesting and you were engaging.
Guest:And there was something about how you handled yourself in the show that to me was like, oh my God, this is...
Guest:Were you happy for me?
Guest:I experienced the rare feeling of true happiness for someone else.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:In the business who I'd had ups and downs with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because first I wasn't threatened by it.
Guest:I was like, I love when I can do things like, I couldn't do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I can't do that shit.
Guest:I can't fucking bring shit out of people.
Guest:I'm allowed to have- I'm allowed to have things.
Guest:To be happy for.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It doesn't threaten me at all.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:I love listening to him.
Guest:Is he directing a movie?
Guest:Fucker, motherfucker, that won't work for me.
Guest:But no, I thought you were incredible.
Guest:And then your standup, which I plugged back into and I started listening to that and I was like, oh my God, he somehow pulled it all together.
Guest:created his own medium, so to speak, and has something going on back there.
Guest:Were you surprised?
Guest:No, because I always believed in your mind.
Guest:Oh, thanks, buddy.
Guest:I did, but I was surprised that you beat the clock or that somehow the second act of your life turned out.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:So to me, it was also a great story that I felt, could feel to the degree that I could feel, not part of, but I was there for it, so I also felt proprietary to a degree.
Marc:When I was trying to figure out who to talk to about where I come from or that isn't just childhood stories or stuff that goes through.
Marc:You're the only guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you were the only guy there at the beginning, like really literally at the beginning of my trying to get into show business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's bizarre.
Marc:And like the type of contempt and jealousy and weirdness that we had all the way through.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you always had your shit together.
Marc:So you think, I mean, I would disagree, but yeah.
Marc:No, I know, but you were able, I mean, just the fact that you took responsibility for an $80 million movie and then were able to shoulder the disaster.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and it helped that Adam helped you, but like that was complete.
Marc:See, the one thing I didn't realize early on or even now sometimes is that there's no way it could have handled any responsibility.
Marc:Like I did what I had to do because I was like out of control in so many levels.
Marc:Emotionally, I had no idea what it meant to make money or how to be diplomatic or how to sort of schmooze properly.
Marc:I was just this fucking man-child raging through the world that you put up with for a good many years.
Marc:And when we had that email exchange, because I did, after we reconnected, I brought you in to maybe direct Maren for a few episodes.
Marc:That didn't work out.
Marc:But then we were like, she would be friends.
Marc:And then all that shit that we just talked about.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're like, let's reconnect.
Marc:And I'm like, you don't remember.
Guest:Well, you never said that.
Guest:I would have bought that.
Guest:I mean, that all came out after.
Guest:But part of me, when I came back towards you, I put on the fucking wash of...
Guest:nostalgia, everything became fine, all those things became quaint and cute and part of growing up, and I did not take responsibility for any of the fucking bullying or anything.
Guest:I was like, my guy Mark, he's going to love seeing me.
Guest:We'll talk about stuff.
Guest:We were partners.
Guest:I want to do a show too.
Guest:I want to work on it, which I did just to hang out with you and be part of what you have going on, which is not what I have going on.
Guest:I was like, that's cool.
Guest:I like to fucking jam with him.
Guest:But you had other plans in your head.
Guest:You were like...
Guest:oh, this fucking guy, here he comes back.
Guest:And it's just sad to me that part of you was like, oh, now I'm getting on my feet and here he comes back?
Guest:Is that true, some of that?
Marc:Well, I didn't reach out to you, obviously.
Marc:I didn't really frame it that way until I rethought it.
Marc:I wasn't seeking to teach you a lesson because what am I really going to teach you?
Marc:I'm not saying that that element wasn't there, but I did in the moment where I decided to bring you in to direct, I thought like,
Marc:Like, well, you know, we do have this thing that was always there and it might work.
Marc:But then I remembered other things.
Marc:I'm like, well, he's a little headstrong, you know, and like all the other stuff.
Marc:Like that's really what brought up all the weird anger was that like I started to picture us working together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then it all came back.
Marc:wow interesting you know what came back was like me doing plays that you were directing right and what a fucking horror show that was because because we had this friendship and then like you would treat me like some other any other asshole like there was one time where i had to meet a chick like at the union at george sherman union and it was rehearsal and we were done with rehearsal and you were giving notes and i had to meet this chick and i'm like i gotta go he's like no you said you can't go and i was like
Marc:fuck you you know like like they're like all this weird shit of working with you right because of the way we worked you're like i'm the guy you know i gotta handle on this you're at it you're fucking nuts so that all came back and i was like there's no fucking way wow how is that not gonna come back yeah well i wish you told me that's how you're feeling because instead what i got was i was about to direct a movie and i was like oh i got a month left before and mark hasn't called me back about directing an episode what the fuck
Guest:That's kind of lame.
Guest:I'll text him.
Guest:He's a texter guy.
Guest:I text him going, Mark, what's up with this?
Guest:I got like this month free, and Mark writes back, it's not going to happen.
Guest:To which I go, welcome to Hollywood.
Guest:I literally looked at that thing and go, well, you learned the language.
Guest:You learned how to dismiss friends.
Guest:You learned how to say it in the least amount of words, coldest way possible.
Guest:It's not going to happen.
Guest:This is like a godfather.
Guest:You ain't going to see him no more.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Guest:The total dismissive one-line thing.
Guest:It's not going to happen.
Guest:I was like, okay.
Guest:Pause.
Guest:Hit that pause mark button again.
Guest:See you later, fucker.
Guest:I went off directing my movie.
Guest:We tried to have one more meeting.
Guest:Even then, though, we had one more lunch.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Every time I see you, I'm happy to see you.
Marc:Me too.
Guest:You kind of push the lunch.
Guest:So here's the quick ending to the story or where it goes wrong again.
Guest:We had a lunch while I was in pre-production of my movie.
Guest:I just wanted to see if there was a role for you.
Guest:It didn't really matter.
Guest:You didn't really care.
Marc:I did care.
Marc:Where was my role?
Guest:There wasn't anything big enough because you still wanted health insurance at that point.
Guest:but uh and there was a discussion of that at the fucking lunch and i'm like and so we replay certain roles in our life again i guess i was and then but at the lunch uh you had been shooting your thing you you the first thing you do when you sit down is go yeah i shoot my just did this episode where there's a director who comes in and uh he's uh you know the whole episode's about this that then i go okay thanks for telling me the whole episode there's a director and whatever and i go okay good story and then we keep talking and
Guest:And then I see the episode a few months later, and I feel attacked and set up and horribly- Oh, the Eric Stoltz episode?
Guest:The Eric Stoltz one, because that's obviously, as anyone who listened to this would see, there's no one else that fits the profile of that character in your life.
Guest:And to the degree that it's autobiographical, I took it very personally.
Guest:And I didn't like it.
Guest:And then I wrote you an email saying, fuck you.
Guest:And then another slew of emails.
Guest:And then we didn't talk for another eight months till now.
Marc:Is that eight months already?
Guest:Yeah, it was the summer, last summer.
Marc:Well, this is a recurring issue in terms of interpretation.
Marc:In my mind, I thought that character was broad enough.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it obviously was based on some things, but I didn't mean it to be a personal attack, and I didn't think that I- No, I didn't.
Guest:Let me just say the worst part was, sorry, this is personal, but when I first saw you, when I came back to, the first time I saw you after 10 years, you were on your porch, I came up, and no part of me was like, oh, there's Mark, hug, give me a hug.
Guest:I go to give you a hug, and you literally stick out your hand and push me away with your hand.
Guest:I did?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:This is in your show, okay?
Guest:That's what Stoltz does to you the minute you walk into the restaurant.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:He goes for a hug and you're like, oh, a handshake, whatever.
Marc:You don't remember that?
Marc:No, I don't remember taking that part of it.
Guest:Oh, okay, you did.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:That is what, in my thin skin, that's what offended me the most.
Marc:Well, the weird thing is doing the type of work that I do, which is too close to the bone, I'm obviously running this problem.
Marc:My father and I aren't talking.
Marc:I don't know how my mother's going to handle this.
Marc:I've had girlfriend and wife issues with this kind of stuff, and it has made me rethink a lot of that.
Marc:But for some reason with that, with the character based on you, there were certain things that I thought were handled well, and I didn't think that I looked like the winner in that situation, really.
Marc:And I thought that it was exaggerated enough.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But okay.
Guest:But there was a contempt for that character, which the author of the piece had, which ultimately I feel, which is fine.
Guest:And you got to do what you do.
Guest:I mean, I understand.
Guest:I can't imagine.
Marc:But I also knew that when you wrote me that email and you said that it hurt your feelings, I'm like, no one's going to know, but you.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I didn't care.
Yeah.
Guest:I didn't care but I felt like the boy at Christmas because I'd become a Mark fan again I was sitting there rooting for you watching the show going good episode and then my I just literally my face frowning when you say like well that guy hack that fucking guy and now however much you may I'm thin skinned you know I was like I felt bad
Marc:And he said, I embarrassed you in front of your family.
Marc:My family didn't watch it.
Guest:I made that up.
Guest:You did.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I wanted to say, imagine I had my wife and family around going, there's Mark.
Guest:You said it happened.
Guest:No, it was me on the couch alone.
Guest:And then my wife came in and goes, what's wrong?
Guest:And I go, Mark just attacked me.
Guest:And I wouldn't let her see it.
Guest:So no, it wasn't my family watching it live.
Marc:So that was for effect.
Marc:So you fictionalized something to hurt me.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I did.
Marc:But the thing that you said was that because of the way that ended was that I invite the Stultz character on my podcast.
Marc:He fantasizes that it gives him credibility.
Marc:And you were like, if you think...
Guest:You were like, and that was completely, I didn't think that, but you were like, if you think that I'm going to- The point about that was- Who the fuck does he think he is?
Guest:You did a line in the show where Stoltz said something, and you said to him, you just want some of my cred, or you'll be on my- You just want some of my cred.
Guest:You had said that to that character, and then later he was on the show.
Marc:And it turned out to be his fantasy.
Marc:That was his fantasy is that he would be able to do my podcast.
Marc:Right, why?
Marc:Because he wanted to be part of this cool thing.
Guest:And I've said things like I wanted to be part of this cool thing, but I, you fucking asshole.
Guest:But I deserve to be because this is the right context of me being part of your history.
Guest:As a working performer, I said to you, you, by the way, cocksucker, you fucking said, oh, now I'm mad.
Guest:Because that first time I contacted you, you said, let's have lunch.
Guest:Why don't you come on?
Guest:We'll get on the mics.
Guest:And I said, I don't know if I'm that interesting because you'd already had these cool guests with everyone new comedy wise.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I don't think I'm there yet for your audience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you said, oh, no, I think you are, but whatever.
Guest:And then-
Guest:And I feel that way.
Guest:I'm like, I've done movies.
Guest:People kind of know my movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Some like them, some don't.
Guest:But I didn't think I was like the great material unless it was related to you, which is why yesterday you said, I want to do something related to you.
Guest:And I go, perfect.
Guest:It makes perfect sense.
Guest:But then fucking in the middle of that last go around last year, I said, I heard you do a great fucking podcast with someone.
Guest:And I felt like I felt very connected to you.
Guest:And I wrote back, I go, I think I want to do your show.
Guest:And you said...
Guest:it's not gonna happen i did not no you said another word like timing's not right bro or something come on oh you did that i could show you and i was like oh i put myself out there and he shut me down i guess i was mad yeah shit i know well where where are we now we're good are we i don't know i mean i would like to hang out we you know
Guest:I have a wife and a family.
Guest:What are you doing now?
Guest:I got no wife or no family.
Guest:You have a girlfriend?
Guest:Not anymore.
Marc:You don't have a girlfriend?
Marc:I got nothing.
Marc:I can't get this right.
Guest:No.
Guest:Well.
Guest:It's all right.
Guest:So it's almost over.
Guest:What's going on?
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Final quarter.
Guest:It doesn't matter.
Guest:You can run the clock down with this thing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So how do we repair this?
Guest:This is it.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:We'll see.
Guest:No, it's just good to talk about.
Marc:Can you let it go?
Guest:Yeah, I can let it go.
Guest:I can let it go.
Guest:I mean, I am a little thin-skinned about that stuff.
Marc:So am I. Yeah.
Marc:And I know you're thin-skinned, and I guess I have to own that.
Marc:I overdid it.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I overdid the thing, but I also, the character was not you.
Marc:I mean, that character was definitely- No, he's slick and- Yeah, and very Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah, and there's no party that thought I was very Hollywood.
Guest:Whatever, it was an exaggeration, whatever.
Guest:It's amazing to me how you're able to do it, and for the most part, fuck everyone, and I'm sorry.
Guest:I think what you do is great.
Guest:and what Judd does great when he writes about his life, and when the best stuff you do is when you're right on that edge.
Guest:Well, look, I- And if I'm collateral once in a while, I can handle it, but I think it's the way to go.
Marc:I apologize.
Guest:I sincerely- That's okay, but I don't want to seem like a censor or a prude, so go for it if you have to.
Guest:No, but it's like- If I fucking had a show right now, I'd go for you.
Guest:You would?
Guest:I would, because you're fascinating, interesting, and- A disaster.
Guest:Nah, not so much.
Guest:Not anymore.
Guest:Your story's getting a little too happy, yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, it's like-
Marc:you've risen well all right well so we're gonna be all right then yeah i think so thank you for talking to me thank you i didn't get the feeling that he was really over that eric stolz thing and i and i think that we're gonna continue our friendship i i'd like to i'd like to think that i am a 50 year old man i can i i'm emotionally 20 if i'm lucky
Marc:It's one of the blessings of not being able to sustain a grown-up relationship and not having children is that you can remain emotionally hobbled and completely neurotic in the same way you did when you were in your teens.
Marc:It's a blessing, folks.
Marc:It's a blessing.
Marc:And I think also that a lot of time I spend on this show, I do need your love.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't want to admit it.
Marc:I don't want to admit it, and I'll certainly fight it, and I'll certainly challenge it.
Marc:I know some of you find me irritating.
Marc:I know some of you find me difficult, but I have to assume I'm looking to the ether and to all of you to sort of carry me.
Marc:And it took me a long time to come to that, you know, as an entertainer or as whatever the fuck it is I do.
Marc:But I guess it goes back to when I was a kid.
Marc:Let's talk to my mother.
Marc:Why don't we get my mother on the phone?
Marc:My mother who had to evolve the ability to love me and learn how to be a mother.
Marc:It happened very late.
Marc:I think it was in my 40s.
Marc:But I'd like to know what she thinks in terms of where I'm at in my life and how or if I've changed.
Marc:I don't know what she feels about it.
Marc:I think I'm still okay with my mommy.
Marc:Let's call my mommy.
Guest:Hello?
Marc:Hi, Mom.
Marc:It's Mark.
Marc:Can you hear me?
Guest:Not as good as I heard you before.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Let me see if I can fix it.
Guest:You sound very far away right now.
Marc:All right.
Marc:How about now?
Guest:Yeah, I can make it out.
Marc:Basically, Mom... Mark?
Marc:I guess what I want to talk to you about is... Were you worried that I wasn't going to make it?
Guest:Most of the time, I always knew you'd make it.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, there were times when you were not...
Guest:Oh, you know, you were boozing and that stuff that I got scared.
Marc:Like scared that I was going to die or that I was just going to throw my life away?
Guest:Throw your life away.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And, you know, how has my success changed you at all about things?
Marc:Me?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, certainly.
Marc:How?
How?
Guest:I'm just a proud mother.
Guest:I walk around and they say, there's Mark's mother.
Guest:Do they?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:And it's just a good feeling to know that you've got what you've finally worked so hard for.
Marc:And you listen to the podcast regularly, right?
Guest:Regularly.
Marc:And that's how you know what's going on with my life.
Guest:It's about the size of that, and I read your newsletter.
Guest:Yeah, well, I'm glad.
Guest:And then I send it to my friends, who I think will want to read it, too.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:My friend Shelly, and there's another two people in the development who are very into you.
Guest:I send it to them and to my nieces.
Marc:So you're actually able to be proud of me now.
Guest:Mark, it was not that I was... I was always proud of you.
Guest:I was very sad a lot of times that I was...
Guest:Just afraid you weren't going to get what you deserved.
Marc:Well, I guess that comes with, you know, when you choose a career in show business, I guess you just never know.
Marc:But I mean, I have to assume that all those years where I was miserable and I was trying very hard to do something that like, I mean, I know there were periods there where you must have thought like, well, he's not quite there yet.
Marc:Like he's whatever he's trying to do.
Marc:It's not quite right yet.
Marc:Like when he'd watch me do stand-up and he'd be like, no.
Guest:Yeah, sometimes when I saw you do stand-up.
Guest:But once you started on Air America, I used to run with you every morning.
Guest:And from then on, it was like I knew that things were going to start happening.
Guest:Even when you were on that program with your friend Steve.
Guest:What was his name?
Guest:Sam Cedar.
Guest:Sam, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just knew that eventually you were going to catch on.
Marc:Well, you thought that, because you thought radio was a good medium for me?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Now, I know you haven't seen too much of the new season, but when I talk about you or when I talk about Dad or our family or now that I have Sally Kellerman playing you on the show, I mean, does that make you uncomfortable?
Guest:No.
Marc:It doesn't, right?
Guest:The only... I'll tell you what makes me uncomfortable.
Guest:When it's a sexual episode, there's stuff that I don't have to know about.
Marc:Oh, you mean about me?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:So you don't like to see your son making out with women?
Guest:Or...
Guest:It depends on the episode.
Guest:I mean, there were a few in the first season that I found embarrassing.
Guest:For me?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, of course for you.
Marc:Not for you.
Guest:Well, I was embarrassed because it works both ways.
Marc:It's uncomfortable.
Guest:It was uncomfortable.
Marc:But you don't mind Sally Kellerman playing you, right?
Guest:No, I like it.
Marc:And I know you saw a little bit of the family episode.
Marc:You haven't seen all of it yet, but you seem to have some issue with that.
Marc:What was the issue with that?
Guest:It wasn't as crazy as the family really is.
Marc:Oh, I'm sorry.
Guest:I should have made it.
Guest:It was dull.
Guest:It didn't show how dysfunctional we really were.
Marc:I'm trying to protect some people.
Marc:I mean, Dad's not talking to me.
Marc:I'm talking a bit on this episode about the risks we take.
Marc:If we talk about our lives and our families involved and, you know, I think it might have permanently strained my relationship with him.
Marc:What do you think I should do about that?
Guest:I think you should do what you're doing.
Guest:You're trying to make amends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you think?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you think I should maybe get in contact with him and see if I can make it right?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Just for my own sake?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, definitely not for his, for yours.
Guest:No, you know, if he dies tomorrow, I don't know how you'll feel.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know, I mean, I'm not telling you to get down on your knees, but just to make an effort to see if you can just, you know, let the whole, if he can let the whole thing go.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if he can ever do that.
Marc:yeah i mean i guess it's not you know whether he can do that or not it's not really my issue no i guess i just have to apologize for causing him undue stress i guess that would be the way to go but do you think he was overreacting i think the man is a little crazy yes
Guest:I think that's just him.
Guest:I mean, he just twists everything around.
Guest:Of course he was overreacting.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Guest:It was funny.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:Well, I'll have to figure it out.
Marc:But all right.
Marc:But so you're happy then.
Marc:You're relaxed and I'm finally doing okay.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Well, I love you, Mom.
Guest:Is that it?
Guest:I'm done.
Marc:Well, what do you want to talk about?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just want you to know that I do love you.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I'm super proud of you.
Guest:And I really, I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe.
Guest:I just can't.
Guest:Imagine how you come about bringing all these people out like you do.
Guest:I think it's totally amazing.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And all in all, what can I tell you?
Guest:That's the truth.
Guest:Well, that makes me happy to hear.
Marc:I'm glad that I've impressed you and that you're proud of me.
Guest:And I'm glad you found this niche that is so great for you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm a little choked up now.
Marc:Thank you, Mom.
Guest:I love you, Mark.
Marc:I love you, too.
Marc:Bye.
Guest:Bye.
Marc:See, I felt good about that conversation.
Marc:I got choked up and, you know, it's my mom.
Marc:But there's some weird thing about my mom and me is that, you know, I don't know.
Marc:And I've told you guys this before.
Marc:I mean, she's my mom, but she feels like just someone I grew up with that occasionally I have a hard time with.
Marc:And it's a little tense.
Marc:But I got to be honest with you, you know, what she said about my father and.
Marc:You know, it's a different game.
Marc:It's a different game with that guy.
Marc:You know, I don't know.
Marc:It's just different.
Marc:But I can tell you this.
Marc:It is, and I felt it deeply, that the fact that my mother's impressed with this ability that I didn't really possess throughout most of my life, not that I could acknowledge.
Marc:I mean, I think most of the time that...
Marc:When I was growing up and certainly in relationships with other people, I was always called completely self-involved or selfish or I didn't know how to listen or I didn't know how to sort of really hear other people.
Marc:And that's something that certainly has nourished my life and certainly that I learned on this show that I could emotionally engage safely with people I was talking to.
Marc:I could open up and let them have a moment
Marc:Many moments I seem to have been able to to somehow make myself available for other people to have their own revelations their own Moments of catharsis, and I don't think there's a better example of that than the Todd Hansen episode Todd was the original I think you could call him head writer of the onion and we sort of over to two Sessions you'll move through his his suicide attempt and
Marc:And you can go listen to that if you want.
Marc:But this episode has been requested by professors and clinicians who want to teach this episode in their classes and in terms of how to, for one, I believe was for sort of bedside manner and also how to be there for somebody else's movement through emotionally difficult narrative in their own life.
Marc:And Todd even identified this idea of feeling not so alone when you hear someone else talk about similar problems.
Marc:And the feedback on this episode was astounding.
Marc:Just thousands of emails from different angles of reactions to suicide, either people that have attempted suicide or people that
Marc:have had families who've attempted it or actually achieved it it was just a profound moment for me uh primarily in that i have to fight my urge to to to step on people in terms of talking like i have to fight the urge to finish sentences i have to fight the urge to interject what i think they're going to say it's not something i have perfected but but this moment with todd there was there was many moments during this episode but it
Marc:It was the first time I allowed myself really to be fully emotionally available to a guest and to not talk, but to provide some sort of grounding for whatever they were sharing with me.
Marc:And it had a big effect on my life, both in my personal life and on this show.
Guest:A component of mental health is a slight inability to see things accurately.
Guest:You see things just as, you know, people who are mentally healthy consistently test as, you know, they have a slightly higher opinion of themselves than they're actually worth or they think that their life is just a little bit better or they think that some looming disaster isn't as bad as it really is.
Guest:It's a survival mechanism.
Yeah.
Guest:Now, what we talked about, though, that you wanted to make sure that we talked about... I just wanted to say I'm sorry to all those people.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:About the selfishness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, like, I mean, I talked about it just a little bit that I had left this note saying, oh, you know, I'm really sorry.
Guest:But that wasn't good enough.
Guest:You know?
Guest:It's a selfish thing to do to take people's love and not give it back, you know?
Guest:And if you abandon them...
Guest:then all of the investment of love that they gave you is you just transmuted into pain and it's not fair to them.
Guest:So, I mean, not only do I thank all of those people, but I also apologize to them.
Guest:I mean, I have, I've said this to all of them many times and they're sick and tired of hearing it, to be honest, but I just thought it was important to say not only thank you, but I'm sorry.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:And it will not happen again.
Guest:Well, I love you, man.
Guest:Well, I think you're a wonderful human being, Mr. Marc Maron.
Guest:And every time you tell your jokes, I relate.
Guest:So thank you.
Guest:I mean, many people have said to me, you know, oh, I'm depressed.
Guest:And I, you know, I love reading about...
Marc:you know reading the onion because it's so much darker than anything else and it's willing to be honest about the real nature of things and you know maybe if that helps people I don't know you doing that same thing has helped me I appreciate hearing that man as far as I know the last I heard Todd was doing well you know not unlike with many of us the struggle continues but I think he's doing better and it's always good to hear I should probably call him
Marc:I should probably deal with my father, too.
Marc:I know a lot of you... I've gotten feedback from you about this problem I'm having with my father, and I understand that he's upset, but a lot of you, again, the dynamic of...
Marc:father son relationships, you know, parent children relationships.
Marc:It is what it is.
Marc:And you guys know some, but, but it becomes very difficult.
Marc:I know there's part of me that thinks like, well, you know, he's old and you don't know, you understand that he's got his problems and you should be able to just to suck it up and deal with it.
Marc:But I, I really dumped a load of shit on him that he believes he didn't deserve.
Marc:And I guess if I frame it like that, that's probably true.
Marc:I probably, he probably, he probably didn't deserve that.
Marc:But, um,
Marc:But my story was my story.
Marc:My story with him was a defining element of my life.
Marc:And he responded the way he responded.
Marc:I don't know that I owe him an apology for that, but I certainly didn't want to cause him grief or any more hardship than he already had.
Marc:But, you know, it did.
Marc:It did that.
Marc:So I guess I can apologize for not doing.
Marc:I don't know how to handle it because I don't want to open up a can of worms.
Marc:And I did get very angry at him.
Marc:And I did dump about 50 years of my sadness and anger at him onto him.
Marc:And I guess there's an argument to be made.
Marc:Maybe you should do that with a third party.
Marc:Maybe you don't do that with a 75 year old man or however old he is.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe that vitality is exactly what I got from my father.
Marc:Maybe that vitality, maybe that, that weird strain of spite is exactly why he persists in the world and keeps moving forward.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I do have this sad feeling that when I lost my shit on my father, that somewhere in his heart, he realized like, ah, yeah, that's my boy.
Marc:I mean, he had to have done that, but I do have to resolve this thing and I will.
Marc:I will resolve it.
Guest:Hello?
Marc:Hey, Dad.
Guest:How you doing, kid?
Marc:How you doing?
Guest:Better that you called.
Marc:Well, I'm going to be out there, and we should get together and just fix this.
Marc:You know, let's get past this.
Marc:It's stupid.
It is.
Marc:The bottom line is I never set out to hurt you or betray you or do anything shitty.
Marc:I just was telling my story and it had these effects and it makes me feel horrible on some level.
Marc:I don't feel bad that I did it, but I feel bad that it fucked you up so much and you didn't need any extra stress.
Marc:Whatever my anger is, it's like enough already.
Marc:If one of us dies, I don't need this shit being between us one way or the other.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:We're both what we are.
Marc:We're stubborn.
Marc:We're angry people.
Marc:I don't feel like going through the rest of my life with this wall here.
Marc:You're having a tough time, and I have my own tough time.
Marc:Let's just fucking deal with it.
Marc:It's not like we live down the block from each other.
Marc:I don't need this shit either.
Guest:Appreciate it so much.
Marc:You all right?
Marc:Look, you know, whatever your fucking anger is or however you think I fucked you, it's like, you know, we just can't go back there and I won't go back to mine.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I mean, I want you to be all right.
Marc:And, you know, I didn't, I swear to God, I didn't mean to fucking cause you more problems.
Marc:I just thought I was telling my story and it had these horrible repercussions.
Marc:You know, what the fuck?
Marc:You know, I don't know that I was completely sensitive to the repercussions it would have.
Marc:I mean, you're not the only one.
Marc:In my mind, it was like, well, who's going to know but me and you?
Marc:And who's going to know but me and Jessica or Mishnah, whoever the fuck it is?
Marc:When you do what I do, there are these repercussions.
Marc:And I guess it just took me something... I just got to learn my lesson or figure out some other way to do it or just live with it or end up alone because no one's going to want to be with me because they're afraid I'm going to talk about them.
Marc:So fuck it.
Guest:I've always liked and respected your comedy.
Guest:It was never an issue, but just...
Guest:It just got big, so it became an issue which I felt bad about.
Guest:I'm happy that you called.
Guest:We can move forward and forget all this bullshit.
Marc:Here's the real deal.
Marc:Whatever the list of violations are in your mind,
Marc:is that we're difficult people.
Marc:We've had these fucking things before.
Marc:It's not unique to us and not unique to our relationship, but I think the dimension of the book and the TV show and then the feelings around that stuff, that just made it even worse.
Marc:We've been through this before.
Guest:I love you and forgive you for all that stuff.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I love you, too.
Marc:And I'll call you when I get there.
Marc:I'll let you know when I'm coming in.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Okay, bye.
Marc:And then finally, to some degree, the one thing I am not good at is realizing that I've done anything that I just keep moving.
Marc:I keep moving.
Marc:But, you know, if there's one moment in the past 500 episodes that really best sums it the entire WTF endeavor.
Marc:It's it's it was a conversation with Norm MacDonald.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, to be honest with you, look, I knew Norm like I like, you know, Norm, I didn't know Norm.
Marc:I had no idea whether he'd even be able to talk like a person before he came to the garage.
Marc:I was incredibly stressed out about it.
Marc:I get stressed out before every interview, but I really didn't know where Norm was coming from.
Marc:And we almost immediately ended up having this very warm and very revealing and very connected conversation.
Marc:And he felt this need to congratulate me for creating this thing, for having something I could call my own.
Marc:And it's just that I had no choice.
Marc:I had no choices left other than to do something.
Marc:No one was going to help me.
Marc:No one was going to step up and parent me through some amazing career in entertainment.
Marc:And, you know, I was alone.
Marc:I was depressed.
Marc:I was broke.
Marc:And I started talking here.
Marc:But, you know, when he sort of hit me in the head with it.
Marc:And even in receiving the compliment, you know, I had to tell him that the only real obstacle for me has always been me.
Marc:But that part of me has always been operative.
Marc:And that part of me gave me the struggle that I have.
Marc:And it gave me the life that I have.
Marc:And it could have gone either way.
Marc:It could always go either way.
Marc:Who the hell knows what's going to happen?
Marc:But I do know.
Marc:You know, for a fact that that I've given you this show, I've given myself this show, I've done something with my life and it has some degree of relevance to a lot of people.
Marc:And the type of feedback and the type of feelings that I've gotten around this show have been completely beyond anything I could have imagined.
Marc:And I'm proud of that, and I'm thrilled that it means so much to so many people.
Marc:And to the fact, even in this conversation with Norm, I mean, we were virtual strangers, and we had a moment where we actually said we love each other.
Marc:We don't talk, but I think in that moment, it meant a lot.
Marc:Well, I'm glad you're doing okay, man.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I'm glad you are, man.
Guest:This is awesome.
Guest:Sorry it's so hot.
Guest:It's so cool.
Guest:It is hot.
Guest:But it's cool you got this thing that's your own, and you don't have to...
Guest:listen to uh yeah no one can really tell me what to do except bad mark i talked to bob costas you know and he does you're not a sports fan but yeah like him he's all right he's great but he does baseball these fucking baseball guys know everything and it was after i got fired and shit and he said oh fuck he goes i know how it is he goes
Guest:I got people in my ear, these producers telling me.
Guest:I'm like, you do?
Guest:Like, he calls baseball games.
Guest:Even he's got fucking guys, like, they say this, you know?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, he says people are saying it in his ears, and he's like, it's always nonsense shit, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's nice that you have a place where a guy doesn't go, hey, ask him this.
Marc:No, I'm very grateful that it's working out, and I love doing it, but I do have a guy within me that says, like, oh, the other food's gonna drop, dude.
Guest:Oh, well, that's the question.
Guest:But something is gonna happen.
Marc:Thanks, Norm.
Guest:That's the bad part.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Let's weave it there.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Love you, buddy.
Guest:Love you too, man.
Marc:That was, as I said before, it was quite a conversation with Norm.
Marc:But, you know, ultimately, it's a conversation with you.
Marc:You people that listen, you know, you listen, you eavesdrop, you hear, you follow me.
Marc:You tell me, you know, shut up.
Marc:You tell me, let the guy talk.
Marc:You tell me, why don't you ask that question?
Marc:You say, that was a good one, Mark.
Marc:I mean, ultimately, this is your show.
Marc:I'm talking to you.
Marc:And I couldn't do it without you.
Marc:I really couldn't.
Marc:I don't keep in mind every day just how many people listen to the show.
Marc:I try to keep it just between us because I don't want to get a big head about anything.
Marc:All I know is that twice a week,
Marc:I put this show up for you.
Marc:And I interview people a lot.
Marc:I talk to a lot of people.
Marc:And the idea of not putting up a show, it's frightening to me.
Marc:And the idea of not having conversations in this garage is frightening to me.
Marc:If I go for a week or two without talking to somebody in here, I get squirrely.
Marc:I don't know what my purpose is.
Marc:I don't know what to do.
Marc:And that's the urgency that drives me.
Marc:is that I have no idea what to do with myself if I'm not doing this.
Marc:And I'm going to keep trying to evolve, become a better person, whatever the fuck it is.
Marc:I'll keep sharing as much of it with you as I can without hurting other people or getting myself into trouble, legally or otherwise.
Marc:So thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Guest:so what happened with you guys though because it was that volatile was that like yeah you come to a point where you just don't want to hear what the other guy has to say you know both of us well i think what happened is that cheech got divorced and i was part of the divorce settlement
Guest:Okay, you get Chong.
Guest:And I get the house.
Guest:Okay, that's a good deal.
Guest:And Lauren sat me down, and I swear to God, here's how it went.
Guest:He goes, Jim, we're thinking about using Marc Maron as the update guy.
Guest:Do you have thoughts on him?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I think he'll be the best news guy you've ever had in your life.
Guest:You need to know a lot of people have problems with him.
Guest:I go, he pisses people off.
Guest:Am I best friends with him?
Guest:No.
Guest:Do I love the guy?
Guest:No.
Guest:He's like, no, that's pretty much the feedback I get from everyone.
Guest:One funny thing happened with the genealogy report.
Guest:He said, well, you know, your family is, you know, from the rural mountain community.
Guest:And in those communities, no one ever leaves the community.
Guest:And no one ever comes into the community.
Guest:And just like you did, I started laughing.
Guest:He knew where he was going.
Guest:I knew where he was going.
Guest:And I was almost in tears laughing.
Guest:He goes, so...
Guest:It's not uncommon for there to be inbreeding inside of those communities.
Guest:And I said, is there inbreeding in my family?
Guest:He goes, a significant amount.
Guest:It's just fun opportunities to do weird stuff.
Guest:You like to do that.
Guest:To keep people scratching their heads.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, there's people like you who get it and appreciate it, but a lot of people are like, why?
Guest:Why?
Guest:What?
Guest:Explain it again?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A movie in Spanish?
Guest:Do you speak Spanish?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And it's all in Spanish, though?
Guest:Yeah, subtitled in English.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And it's a comedy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah, good.
Marc:That's fun.
Marc:So, a man shows up at the door, and I let him in.
Marc:You know, they're both looking at me, and I realize, holy shit, this is Kevin MacDonald.
Marc:I don't know who this Kevin McDonald is.
Marc:I don't know what he does.
Marc:I've never seen him before in my fucking life.
Marc:But he's here to be interviewed because we scheduled it.
Marc:I did not know.
Marc:This is Kevin McDonald.
Marc:Kevin MacDonald showed up in my house.
Marc:M-A-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.
Marc:Not M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.
Marc:So I literally have no fucking idea who this guy is.
Guest:I'm going to say it to you here, right here and now.
Guest:With love, the day Joan Rivers dies, I'm going to make a killer zing.
Marc:Okay, you heard it here first, folks.
Guest:I'm going to zing the shit out of her.
Marc:It's an interesting idea to me, the idea that people need to have something to be up against.
Guest:For the listeners at home, he just wrote it down, so it's clear that he is going to work it out later a little bit.
Marc:And I'm impressed.
Marc:How long have you had that shirt you're wearing right now?
Marc:It's pretty new.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Well, I mean, I got it from the TV show.
Marc:They bought it for me.
Marc:What, you think I need a new shirt?
Guest:Well, you know.
Marc:Okay, okay.
Marc:I'm going to write that down.
Marc:Get new shirts.
Marc:RuPaul says so.
you