Episode 498 - RuPaul Charles
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck sticks what the fucksters what the fuckleberry thins and what the fuckrakers hi hi it's mark maron where we at all right
Marc:RuPaul is on the show today.
Marc:And I got to tell you, this was an enlightening conversation.
Marc:I was not in a great place.
Marc:I was a little burnt out.
Marc:I have been a little burnt out.
Marc:I didn't know what to expect from RuPaul.
Marc:I had no idea.
Marc:I know as much as you guys know from watching him do his work and being who he is.
Marc:I know he was on his way over here.
Marc:He got lost.
Marc:I got on the phone with him.
Marc:He seemed nice.
Marc:You know, you make assumptions about a guy in drag.
Marc:And I was a little at the end of my rope.
Marc:I don't know if you guys know this, but sometimes this is exhausting, talking to people intensely for hours at a time.
Marc:I get a little burnt out.
Marc:I was a little at the end of my rope.
Marc:The last relationship kind of knocked me for a loop.
Marc:Just a little frazzled, trying to put together a new hour of stand-up.
Marc:I mean, look, I'm not complaining.
Marc:Some of you think I'm complaining.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:But I do get exhausted and aggravated and anxious and...
Marc:And RuPaul came in here and just something about it.
Marc:We got down to brass tacks of spiritual stuff and other stuff.
Marc:And he made me feel better.
Marc:It felt like a very, very proactive conversation.
Marc:It helped me.
Marc:So that's coming up momentarily.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So I go to Nashville because I got a gig.
Marc:The Wild West Comedy Festival.
Marc:It's a new comedy festival.
Marc:Vince Vaughn is involved.
Marc:My buddy Ahmed Ahmed.
Marc:You've heard him on this show.
Marc:He tells me I should do it.
Marc:Maybe do a WTF with Vince.
Marc:So we set up this WTF with Vince.
Marc:Now, I take on a lot of things that I don't know if I can handle necessarily.
Marc:I say yes to a lot of things.
Marc:I don't know how to say no.
Marc:Now, my experience with live WTFs
Marc:The live WTFs I used to do with groups of comics, that's just for fun.
Marc:Get some laughs.
Marc:But one-on-one, it's tricky.
Marc:And I don't know Vince.
Marc:I've never met Vince.
Marc:I only know him like you know him from movies and stuff.
Marc:I don't think we're the same type of dude.
Marc:I'm concerned that maybe he's going to hand me my ass somehow.
Marc:I don't know how I'm going to have to.
Marc:Talking to him one-on-one in here would make me a little intimidated.
Marc:He's just that kind of guy.
Marc:I met him once.
Marc:He's a very tall fellow.
Marc:Tall.
Tall.
Marc:You know, I get very anxious.
Marc:I get very full of dread and anxiety.
Marc:And I make myself crazy before interviews, even when I just do them in the garage in my house.
Marc:I drive myself nuts.
Marc:I don't know if you know that about me, but it's true.
Marc:You know, I have a sense of where I want to go.
Marc:But, you know, walking into a conversation that you're hoping is going to last at least an hour, you know, that way is a little anxiety inducing.
Marc:So I got weeks to think about this.
Marc:Now we're going to do it in front of an audience.
Marc:And I didn't know how it was going to go.
Marc:So I'm heading to Nashville and I'm a little nuts.
Marc:I got to do it that night.
Marc:And I get to the theater.
Marc:We got about 300 tickets sold.
Marc:And Vince walks in and I'm like, hey, man, he's like, what's up?
Marc:And I'm like, how are you doing?
Marc:Very charming guy, professional, professionally charming, that guy, but a nice guy.
Marc:And I tell him, look, we're just going to do it.
Marc:And I said, look, it gets it's a little tricky to have a real conversation in front of people because you're going to want to.
Marc:You know, I think we're both if you have the chops, you're going to want to get some laughs and you want to loop them into the conversation.
Marc:You don't want to just sit there and speak candidly in front of people and not include them.
Marc:Well, I told him I said, we'll see what happens.
Marc:It should be good.
Marc:And he was excited.
Marc:And I went up there and it was great.
Marc:Not only was it good, there was a through line.
Marc:There was a theme.
Marc:He did hand me my ass a bit.
Marc:You know, he helped me out a bit.
Marc:I seem to be in another mode of kind of a slight bit of anxiety and a little overly neurotic and aggravated.
Marc:Well, it's good, though, because I need a little help emotionally, and that always makes for a pretty good interview.
Marc:But here's what happened in Nashville.
Marc:Had a great show at Zaney's.
Marc:We did a 7 o'clock show.
Marc:Packed the place out.
Marc:Thank you for coming out.
Marc:I know I was a little loose.
Marc:I know I was a little manic.
Marc:because of coffee intake and and other things in my mind uh but it was a great show and i really appreciate everyone who came out there in nashville so what did i get done in nashville a pretty monumental thing happened i'm eating with my buddy court mcgowan okay we're just sitting there at a place called noshville having some breakfast and three dudes walk up to me
Marc:One of them is wearing a Goodland Record T-shirt.
Marc:I recognize the T-shirt.
Marc:That's Ben Pearlstein.
Marc:I'd never met him in the flesh, but he's Tommy Stinson's manager, Tommy Stinson, the bass player from The Replacements, who I've had on this show.
Marc:With him are a cat named John Phillip, okay?
Marc:And the other guy with him is this guy named Tanner Shep.
Marc:so i don't know these guys they all introduce themselves as fans you know pearlstein yeah you know i i know him because you know we've worked with him before and he manages this band that these other two guys are in all right and that's trapper chef in the shades they're recording a record down the street and they're telling me that they're fans and they're in the studio and john phillip is is like yeah we we listen to your shit and this guy uh
Marc:this guy tanner he's you know he listens to my shit and you know obviously ben's a fan they're recording a record i'm like you guys need a guitar player i said jokingly and they're like yeah you should come down the studio i'm like no seriously really and they're like yeah yeah come down we're working on some songs and we could probably figure out a way to to you know to get you in on a song and i'm like really yeah i can come in the studio and
Marc:So to me, this is like, oh, my God, I've never recorded in a studio.
Marc:I've never done any music like that.
Marc:I'm just, you know, I just play guitar here in my garage by myself.
Marc:And I'm like, are you serious?
Marc:They're like, yeah, come at noon.
Marc:I'm like, no fucking way.
Marc:So now this is all I'm thinking about.
Marc:I'm going to go play guitar.
Marc:I'm going to go jam in a studio with these guys.
Marc:They're making a record.
Marc:The name of the band is Trapper Shep and the Shades.
Marc:All right, so the two guys are in it.
Marc:Trapper and Tanner are brothers.
Marc:Trapper's the guitar player.
Marc:Tanner's the bass player.
Marc:John Phillip is the drummer.
Marc:Well, anyway, so I go meet them at Brendan Benson's studio.
Marc:Brendan Benson from the Raconteurs, he's also a solo artist.
Marc:All right, so now it's like getting big.
Marc:Now I'm like, holy shit, this is big time.
Marc:So I get there, they're like, pick a guitar.
Marc:And there's a wall of guitars.
Marc:So I pick this telly.
Marc:Uh, and, and I'm like, well, what do you want to sound like?
Marc:What are we doing?
Marc:What's the song?
Marc:And I had never done this before.
Marc:And now, and now I'm sitting there and they're treating me like a professional musician.
Marc:Like they, he's showing me the song.
Marc:Now I got to learn the song.
Marc:I never learned songs really, very rarely.
Marc:So I got to learn the song.
Marc:Then I got to figure out a riff for the song.
Marc:Then I got to figure out how I'm going to play it.
Marc:And then Brendan Benson, the wizard, you know, he hooks me up in this little tube amp and it's like, I want to sound like Keith.
Marc:I think that's a, that's the way to go.
Marc:When in doubt, sound like Keith.
Marc:so he gets that thing going it's in a separate room of the studio like it's all rigged up man like he's got me plugged into an amp in another room and they're on the headphones so I'm okay I'm excited overwhelmed and I think I'm way outgunned here like what I'm just a fucking amateur guitar player right so we work it out we work out the songs we start doing takes I'm in the studio and we do I spent the entire day there you know recording an actual song for a record I don't know if they'll cut me out or not doesn't matter it was amazing
Marc:And I got to tell you, man, I walked out.
Marc:I was thrilled that they let me do it.
Marc:The thing was, they were very nice to let me be involved, and they seemed excited about it.
Marc:I think I played all right, but I got very insecure, and I'm walking out.
Marc:I thank them.
Marc:I don't even know what to say.
Marc:I was just sort of like, yeah.
Marc:And I'm walking out, and then Trapper comes running after me.
Marc:He's like, here, man, here's a session fee.
Marc:He gave me a hundred bucks.
Marc:I don't want any money.
Marc:It was a very kind gesture and a respectful one.
Marc:And now I can say I'm a paid studio musician.
Marc:Obviously I'm not.
Marc:Look, here's what I learned from this.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I learned that I am definitely not a professional musician.
Marc:All right.
Marc:A lot of things go into it.
Marc:You got to do, you know, a lot of takes you got to do, uh, you know, you got to rerecord stuff.
Marc:You got it, but I learned a lot.
Marc:You know, I learned about the whole process, at least in, you know, Benson studio, uh,
Marc:I did some overdubs or whatever.
Marc:I corrected some things.
Marc:I got the lead right.
Marc:I sang on another song, some backup, but whatever.
Marc:I spent the day there doing a real recording session.
Marc:And look, I'm just not a professional musician.
Marc:This is what I learned.
Marc:I'm not a professional musician.
Marc:I'm limited.
Marc:And quite honestly, I obviously don't take it seriously.
Marc:The other thing I learned is I think I found what I want to do with the rest of my life.
Marc:And I just hope, I'm going to break this to you easy, but I think it's time for me to start recording songs that I've written in a studio with a band.
Marc:Now, a lot has to happen between this announcement and actually doing it.
Marc:Like, first, I have to get a band.
Marc:I have to write the songs.
Marc:And so, okay.
Marc:All right, maybe it's not going to happen overnight.
Marc:But it was fucking amazing.
Marc:And I just want to trap her up in the shades to know that it was a real thrill for me.
Marc:And I hope I make the cut.
Marc:Like, if you don't... I'm speaking directly to them now.
Marc:Obviously, I could text somebody.
Marc:But if you don't put my guitar playing on that cut of the record...
Marc:I will be brokenhearted and no matter how good the record is, I'll say it's bad.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:That's just how I'm going to play this one.
Marc:That's what I'm going to do.
Marc:RuPaul is my guest today and I love this conversation I had with him.
Marc:So enjoy it.
Guest:I definitely couldn't have done that anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, that was that.
Guest:And I did it for a good 10 years after it was done, you know?
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What, just the booze and the drugs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm from San Diego.
Guest:I started when I was 10.
Marc:10 doing what?
Guest:Smoking weed and drinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And actually, by 14, I was... Actually, no.
Guest:By 13, I was doing Red Devils.
Guest:You know what those were?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They were... In the after-school movies, they were Benny's and Dixie's.
Marc:Oh, right, right, right.
Guest:Speed.
Guest:Yeah, but there was Speed, and then there were the Downers, too.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you started early enough where there really were Downers.
Marc:Downers sort of went away.
Marc:The classic Downers.
Marc:Quaaludes, gone.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, if you remember, Quaaludes made a comeback in 88, in 89.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they were bootleg and they were... Were they Mexican?
Marc:They were like mandrakes or something?
Marc:Wasn't that another thing?
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:I think they were cut with like...
Marc:heroin or something that made something practical something practical and cheap and um totally black out on them which was kind of kind of cool i can't get off nicotine i i eat nicotine lozenges all the time i can't get off it yes you can you can yeah what i know i can yeah i just i'd forgotten what that denial feels like like ah tomorrow i'll do it tomorrow
Marc:No, I think that's the Jew in you, actually.
Guest:What?
Guest:They're putting it off?
Guest:I just, that's sort of a mild suffering that is.
Guest:I need it?
Guest:It feels so at home.
Guest:It does.
Guest:You don't have it?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Not at all?
Guest:Just love and light all the time, Ru?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's there.
Guest:It's still there.
Guest:But it takes work.
Guest:It's like a tail that grows back every day.
Guest:That's why I have my spiritual practices that I will do that just get me aligned.
Marc:What are they?
Guest:Help me.
Guest:I need some advice.
Guest:Well, here we are in Los Angeles.
Guest:I like to wake up really early in the morning, like 4 o'clock, do my yoga by myself, and then I will go down to... I'm very Los Angeles, Hollywood.
Guest:I have a little office down in West Hollywood that I go down to where I keep all my clothes and all my stuff.
Marc:That must be a large office.
Guest:Well, it's actually a condo.
Guest:It's a two-bedroom condo.
Guest:How many closets are there?
Guest:Well, the rooms are closets.
Guest:Right, okay.
Guest:The rooms are the closets.
Guest:So I go down there and I check my emails and all that kind of stuff, do some tweeting, and then I go to the gym at five.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:And these are all spiritual practices.
Guest:This is all meditation.
Guest:This is all part of the thing that helps the tail, shaves the tail down.
Guest:Then I will either go to a meditation meeting and then- This is every day?
Guest:Every day.
Guest:Or like this morning, I went to Aretha Franklin Canyon for a hike at 6.30 in the morning.
Guest:Is it called Aretha Franklin Canyon?
Guest:No.
No.
Guest:I was like, I don't know that one.
Guest:Is that on the map?
Guest:Yeah, well, it's actually called Franklin Canyon, but if I call it Aretha Franklin Canyon, you'll never forget it.
Guest:You'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
Marc:So by noon, you've done like four things, four self-care things.
Guest:Yeah, but they're maintenance.
Guest:They have to be done.
Guest:In fact, it helps everything in the day.
Guest:And so, although there is a yoga class, I will go to it at 9.15.
Marc:Do you get spiritual sort of peace out of yoga or is it just a physical workout?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's spiritual.
Guest:It's focusing on the breathing.
Guest:It's focusing on the heartbeat and just being, you know, and being where you are right now.
Marc:Why do I fight all this?
Marc:I do fight it.
Guest:Because you feel that.
Guest:And not just you, just humans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:what humans do what the machine is yeah you can look at it from objectively and go oh it's doing that thing now yeah so um you know uh so that's why that's why uh that's why you fight it but now where did you so you you were born in san diego so you come from california like i would never associate you with san diego
Guest:Yeah, well, you know, a lot of brown-skinned people from the South either moved up to Detroit and, you know, those industrial cities.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or the later ones, like in the early 50s, moved to out west.
Marc:Where'd your family come from?
Guest:They're from Louisiana.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Do you still have family there?
Guest:You know, my sister told me yesterday that she's going to move down there.
Guest:She's going to go back.
Guest:She's going to go.
Marc:I'm like, why?
Why?
Guest:Why would you do that?
Marc:I mean, I have nothing against it, but it's awfully hot and sticky.
Guest:It's hot and sticky, and there are still just old ideas, old ideas.
Marc:Which ones?
Marc:I mean, it seems like New Orleans itself is a pretty progressive, open-minded clusterfuck of a city, but you're talking about the state itself.
Guest:I think just progressive thinkers.
Guest:I think people who think in terms of doing things in a way that are more effective.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's more rare to find people in Louisiana to do that.
Marc:You'd have to have, there'd be smaller groups.
Marc:Maybe, yes.
Marc:You'd have to set up meetings.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You'd have to do that.
Marc:Secret meetings of people that are progressive thinkers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now I'm going to get a bunch of email from people in New Orleans going, that is not true.
Marc:There's nine of us here.
Guest:Well, no, that's it.
Guest:Well, this is maybe that's in New Orleans, but my sister's going to be moving to Mansfield.
Marc:I have no idea.
Guest:South of Shreveport, which is where my father was born and raised.
Marc:Is she going for emotional reasons?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:My father, he passed on a couple of years ago, but she bought a place down there with her husband and they like it.
Guest:We grew up on welfare, public assistance and all that stuff.
Guest:My idea of roughing it is the Four Seasons.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I don't want to rough it.
Guest:I don't want anything hard.
Guest:I don't want to be around people who have to convince that I'm worthy of...
Guest:anything you know yeah just want to relax i want to relax and i want to not be judged you can judge me all you want just don't get up in my face yeah you know yeah well when when you were growing up in san diego i mean where did uh where did you know what did you start with doing i mean what was your life like
Marc:As a kid, because you evolved into this phenomenon.
Marc:I can't remember a time in my life where RuPaul wasn't somewhere on the periphery of my consciousness.
Marc:So how did that start?
Marc:What were your interests?
Marc:What was the struggle like at the beginning?
Guest:Well, you know, I was in a house with all girls.
Guest:My mother and father divorced when I was seven.
Guest:But like the two years leading up to the divorce was just pure hell.
Guest:They were fighting.
Guest:Well, they were fighting and they had their own melodrama.
Guest:And us kids, we were just bit players, unpaid bit players, extras.
Guest:So, you know, to get any attention, to get something going, I had to sing and dance or tell jokes.
Guest:I had to have some value.
Guest:How many sisters?
Guest:Three sisters and me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then my sisters, my older sisters, they're twins.
Guest:They hightailed it out of there as soon as possible.
Guest:In fact, the one who's moving to Louisiana, she got married when she was 17.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:17.
Guest:She with the guy still?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Uh, but, uh, just wanted out.
Guest:She wanted out, wanted to get somewhere.
Guest:And so, um, and then I, when I was 15, I was able to move in with her, that same sister.
Guest:She's my soul sister, uh, and, uh, move to Atlanta, Georgia at that point.
Marc:And that was the great escape.
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was my own personal bar mitzvah.
Guest:I had made the transition, sorry for lack of a better term, but I was able to move on to meet my tribe.
Marc:Yeah, and why Atlantis?
Marc:You were 16?
Marc:I was 15.
Marc:15, and you were on your own.
Guest:Well, I was with my sister and her husband when she married when she was 17.
Marc:And what were your interests?
Marc:Where were you at, you know, sexually and otherwise?
Guest:Well, I was, you know, I mean, let's back up a little bit.
Guest:I always thought outside the box, always could see colors that other people couldn't see.
Guest:And I was always looking for my tribe.
Guest:And the closest thing I'd gotten to that until that point was Monty Python on PBS.
Guest:I was like, oh, my God.
Guest:Really?
Guest:These are my people.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, you know, there were inklings of it just because of the absurdity and the comedy and the irreverence and looking and seeing outside the box and seeing how how how absurd and the hypocrisy of our culture.
Guest:You know, you know, I remember the first time I saw Woody Woody Allen's Annie Hall.
Guest:And he would have this ongoing dialogue with people on the street.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would say, are you feeling this?
Guest:And they would say, well, yeah, I was feeling it.
Guest:But you were this dialogue.
Guest:And I was looking for people to have that dialogue with like.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Is this all kind of weird to you?
Guest:But everybody was pretending like this was normal, this life that we have.
Guest:And I explain it when I tweet or whenever I talk about this thing.
Guest:It's like there are two types of people, the people who believe the matrix, lock, stock, and barrel, and the people who understand, oh, this is a construct.
Guest:This is all illusion.
Guest:Those are the two types of people.
Guest:And I was always looking for the other people who were going, yes, it is illusion.
Marc:Against the status quo.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Against the sort of mediocrity, the cultural expectations of middle America and the American dream idea.
Marc:It's interesting that the portal in was Monty Python because you almost felt weird watching that because I'm about the same age as you, a couple years younger, but you'd find it on PBS.
Marc:It wasn't even on network TV.
Marc:You're like, does anyone know that this is on?
Marc:What is going on here?
Marc:It was a pretty amazing feeling just to see the beginning of it because it was from another country.
Marc:It didn't feel like anything American.
Marc:And it just didn't make sense in any way that we were able to process.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was hilarious.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:So great.
Guest:And, you know, it was around the same time I started smoking weed.
Guest:Hell of a combination.
Yeah.
Guest:It was perfect.
Guest:It was perfect.
Guest:But did you want to do comedy?
Guest:No, I wanted to live life.
Guest:I wanted to go and dip into the waters of Lake Minnetonka.
Guest:I wanted to do everything.
Guest:You know, when you see young kids, I was watching a kid the other day, must have been about four years old, and he was so happy to be in a human body.
Guest:Jumping around and going up upside down.
Guest:And he was running over there.
Guest:And he came around and I was like, oh my God, it's great.
Guest:I'm a human.
Guest:Look at me.
Guest:Look, I can do this.
Guest:I can do it.
Guest:That's what I want to do.
Marc:For no reason.
Marc:Just to do it.
Marc:Just to move your hands, jump around, roll on the ground.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:With an exhausted parent going, yes, you can.
Guest:You can do that.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But unfortunately, when I was a kid, my parents were in their own melodrama.
Guest:And I wanted... So I really couldn't...
Guest:you know, do that as much as possible.
Marc:Selfish parents make you, they don't provide a place where you can feel comfortable to be yourself even.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You just get steamrolled.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:They don't pay attention.
Marc:You don't get any reaffirmation or any affirmation at all.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, good for you, kid.
Marc:You know, that's great.
Marc:You just sort of-
Guest:Luckily for me, though, my sister Renata, who's moving to Louisiana, who was my soul sister, whom I moved to Atlanta with and who got married at 17, her, she was my soul.
Guest:She was the one who said, you're great.
Guest:You should do this.
Guest:Why don't you do that?
Guest:I had that in my sister.
Guest:So that was great.
Marc:That's great to have somebody protecting you and supporting you.
Marc:So you get to Atlanta at 15.
Marc:Now, I like Atlanta.
Marc:It's a pretty great city, and that has a pretty strong progressive community and a pretty strong sort of, you know, kind of whack job community a bit.
Marc:Like, you know what I mean?
Marc:Like, there's always been good music from there, good comedy from there.
Marc:So what did you do when you get there at 15?
Guest:Well, at 15 in Atlanta, I got into the School of Performing Arts.
Guest:We saw a real estate agent who asked me what I was interested in.
Guest:And she said, well, you'd like the Northside School of Performing Arts.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And so from then on, that was my goal.
Guest:And I got in and met my tribe.
Marc:What did they look like?
Guest:Well, they were kids like me who saw outside the box, who knew about things and music and things that weren't just what they were programmed to.
Guest:What year are we talking now?
Guest:This is 1976.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, 1976.
Guest:Because I'm born in November, so I'm 15 most of 76.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I'm November 17th.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:What is going on?
Guest:That's disco.
Guest:It's disco.
Guest:I went to my first disco.
Marc:That's the middle of it, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, the middle of it would have been 77, 78.
Marc:Okay, so the beginning.
Marc:So it's all starting.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Some dancing going on.
Marc:There's some cocaine around.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Poppers.
Guest:My brother-in-law, I'm 15.
Guest:My brother-in-law lent me his ID.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the drinking age then was 18 in Atlanta.
Guest:So I went to my first disco.
Guest:It was called The Fox Hunt.
Guest:It was brilliant.
It was brilliant.
Guest:It was brilliant.
Guest:Foxes.
Guest:Remember that word?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's foxy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I still say foxy all the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, it never goes away.
Marc:So you go in and it's what?
Marc:There's like a mirror ball and there's- What's happening?
Marc:What's happening?
Guest:Well, this is Atlanta.
Guest:And, you know, the history of Atlanta, Atlanta is a mecca for people all over the southeast.
Guest:And so, you know, at this point, Atlanta was enjoying this amazing boom.
Guest:And it's had several booms over the centuries.
Guest:What type?
Guest:Well, this was the black explosion boom.
Guest:Because in 74, Maynard Jackson had become the first black mayor of Atlanta.
Guest:And so it was like, wow.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And so all of these black people from all over, actually all over the United States thought, let's go to Atlanta.
Guest:And that's actually what we did.
Guest:We went there because it was happening and it was really happening.
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:We talking like big hair?
Guest:Well, we're talking big hair, but just freedom to pursue your dreams and to hopefully make money without a lot of obstruction from the man.
Guest:So there was this feeling of freedom there that we moved there for.
Guest:And, you know, over the years, people have moved to Atlanta for that same reason, for different aspects of that same reason.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know, so.
Marc:And what was what was your plan?
Marc:How did that evolve?
Marc:When did you start to what did you start doing creatively first?
Guest:Well, first of all, it was theater and music theater, and then it went into new wave punk rock.
Guest:Actually, the punk rock movement was sort of dissipating when the new wave thing was taking over.
Guest:And I started my career at a clip called 688 in a band.
Guest:And this is about 81, 82.
Guest:And so the B-52s had already exploded.
Guest:Now, are you in drag yet?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:See, but this is the thing.
Guest:This goes back to Monty Python thing and the Woody Allen thing, which is I understand that this is a matrix and how can I, and I come from the counterculture San Diego.
Guest:I grew up around, you know, the hippie movement and all that.
Guest:California free love.
Guest:You took that in.
Guest:That was all part of it.
Guest:The beach.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Because, you know, I hate to, I love it when Judge Judy says, you know what, I'm smarter than you and I'll always be an only, the thing is, and I admire it because I was taught to never say you're smart.
Guest:I dumbed down for so many years as a kid so I could sort of fly under the radar.
Guest:You fit in too, right?
Marc:fit in and it's a strategic move it's a strategy well you're like okay so you're three years older than me and i remember when i was a kid you know what was left of the hippie thing i mean it defined culture if you wanted counterculture if you were compelled towards something that wasn't the matrix it always looked like you know some you know a couple of long hairs were just hanging around doing nothing yeah like they got the answer they're with they're rebels they're just not doing anything they're just wandering around with long hair and bell bottoms but
Guest:That's kind of revolutionary coming from the 50s where we had come back.
Guest:It's kind of revolutionary because it says, you know what, I'm not going to play the game.
Marc:Right, fuck it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm throwing my... And by the way, and I'm jumping ahead, but part of the reason people have an aversion to drag is because it breaks the fourth wall, because it is so punk rock, because it says, you know what, look, I'm a man.
Guest:Look, now I'm a woman.
Guest:Look, now I'm a cowboy.
Guest:Now I'm a sailor.
Guest:Now I'm this.
Guest:Now I'm that.
Guest:Now I'm this thing, this alien.
Marc:I think the aversion, if there is an aversion, it's to what it confronts in men who don't know how to contextualize it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I don't think it's sort of like, that's no good.
Marc:It's sort of like, I don't know why I'm feeling this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's that's a part of the bigger picture, which is that, you know, you know, they say we're all God in drag.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so, you know, but there's a denial of that.
Guest:And I think it's because nobody wants it's a buzz killer.
Guest:You know, nobody likes the actor who breaks the fourth wall because it takes them out of their high, out of their fantasy.
Marc:So when you say the fourth wall, that drag breaks the fourth wall, is that you are within the character, but you have the freedom to be whoever you want in there, because the character stays as it is, so you can kind of move in and out of it.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:It's self-referential.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Okay, so getting back to the 60s and then moving towards punk rock, when I brought up drag, you're like, no, not yet, because I was doing some other Matrix-busting activity.
Marc:And that was, what was your punk band?
Marc:What was the theatrics of it?
Guest:Well, it was a punk rock mentality, but we had already moved into this new wave.
Guest:Dance music?
Guest:It was party music.
Marc:I'm trying to think who that was.
Guest:It was Bow Wow Wow and Hazy Fantasia.
Guest:And then it was the B-52s.
Guest:Because we thought, wow, if these party kids from Athens could have this worldwide hit with Rock Lobster, then we could do it.
Guest:And that's where we started.
Guest:And they had come from Athens, Georgia, which is just 60 miles
Marc:it's still a big music town yeah it's still a mecca for music sure so but what were okay so you're how old i was 20 and this is and the band was called we we pull yeah we we pull yeah actually yeah but i joined this band called the now explosion which was a sort of a uh take off on the b-52s and this is about 82 did you know fred did you know them i mean were they around
Guest:no no we didn't know them but they knew of us you know what i mean sure so because they were the reigning yes they were the kings and yeah but they were out on the road and all that kind of stuff so um i was sort of a special guest of the now explosion they they existed and then my spinoff band from the now explosion was wee wee pole now were you singing yeah and
Guest:And what were you wearing?
Guest:I was wearing a loincloth and a mohawk and, you know, sort of this jungle look was my thing.
Guest:Jungle, urban jungle.
Marc:And the band was, was there a synthesizer and a drum or just a, what was the outfit?
Guest:We had a synthesized drum with a percussionist and then a bass and a guitar.
Guest:And then I had two girls who I was in a little group before this called RuPaul and the U-Hauls.
Guest:It was sort of a takeoff on Sylvester's Two Tons of Fun and these two big black girls who sang backup for me.
Guest:And then that merged into Wee Wee Paul.
Guest:Wee wee pole.
Guest:Where did that come from?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:We were talking and I thought, and we just, it just came into my head and I said, how about this?
Guest:And he said, yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because it's, you know, bow wow wow, wee wee pole.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's why.
Marc:Now, who are you playing for?
Marc:I mean, how do you even identify?
Marc:Do you identify as gay?
Marc:Do you identify as not gay?
Marc:Do you identify as you?
Guest:You know, when on my Twitter account, which is just at RuPaul, I always do this.
Guest:This is my favorite tweet ever, which is, ego loves identity.
Guest:Drag mocks identity.
Guest:Ego hates drag.
Right.
Guest:Because the thing is, you know, humans always want to identify.
Guest:I'm this and I'm that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And drag is really the antithesis of that because it's like, say, oh, look, I'm this.
Guest:Now I'm that.
Guest:And it's like, I don't identify as whatever.
Guest:Listen, I always say whatever the client wants.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I'm not, I don't care.
Guest:You can call me whatever you want.
Guest:It doesn't matter.
Marc:But I mean, as you're finding your path, I mean, who is the audience?
Marc:Because I know that Atlanta has a very large gay community, and there's a comedy club I play at, and it almost seems, I always feel this, even now when I go play the Laughing Skull, there's a big gay club right across the street, and it still feels, I always feel like there's still something secret about it
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:See, I was never in the closet.
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:The whole identifying, that's something humans, that's part of the machine.
Guest:That's part of the matrix.
Guest:That we are programmed to say, well, I am this, I am that.
Guest:I'm like, you know what?
Guest:I am whatever.
Guest:I'm whatever.
Marc:And it doesn't even matter, really, honestly.
Marc:But I do think, like, it seemed to me that at certain points, identity was necessary to build community.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's part of the journey.
Guest:It's part of the trajectory, you know, of someone to go, well, I'm this, I'm this.
Guest:And then the further, the deeper you go into it, you realize, I am everything.
Guest:I'm everything.
Guest:And no judgment.
Guest:And the worst in people, I am the best in people.
Guest:I am everything.
Guest:But your consciousness gets to decide how you're going to navigate this.
Guest:Coming down here on the 101, there was an accident across the freeway.
Guest:But everyone on my side was pulled, stopped to look.
Guest:It's like, you know what?
Guest:Govern your ass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Handle your shit, ladykins, because you're the problem.
Guest:Everybody wants to look.
Guest:It's like it's an accident.
Guest:So part of the rebel or the whatever in me is like, I will not look.
Guest:I will not be part of the problem.
Guest:I won't look.
Guest:I won't look.
Guest:I will not text on my phone.
Guest:I will not.
Guest:Would you look if you were walking?
Guest:I don't want to see anything awful or horrible.
Guest:I don't want to see any blood.
Guest:Have you seen enough?
Guest:I've seen enough.
Guest:I really have.
Guest:And the most horrific images are actually in my own head.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I don't want to add to that.
Marc:Well, what did you experience?
Marc:Okay, so you do wee-wee pole and you're doing new wave party music.
Marc:Kind of like the B-52s.
Marc:For how long did you do records?
Marc:I know you have records as RuPaul, but did you do records then?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:My first record was in, maybe it was 83.
Guest:That was with Wee Wee Paul and stuff.
Guest:You know, this is the thing.
Guest:Listen.
Guest:I knew I was a star.
Guest:I knew I was a star from day one.
Guest:And actually, my mother, they said, Tony, what are you going to call the kid?
Guest:And she said, his name is going to be RuPaul Andre Charles, because he's going to be a MF star.
Guest:And my mother really actually spoke that way.
Guest:She was in St.
Guest:Martinsville, Louisiana, and very peppery, red-hot firecracker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, and then apparently before that even, a psychic had told her that it was going to be a boy and then he's going to be famous.
Guest:So, I grew up knowing that.
Guest:You just had to figure out how.
Guest:Yeah, well, I had to figure out how.
Guest:And again, I had no judgment as to how it would be, but I was aware that I needed to listen to what the universe stage direction.
Guest:And that's what it was.
Guest:When this universe said, drag, I was like, really?
Guest:Drag?
Marc:And I said, okay, sure.
Marc:But that was not something that, that was an afterthought.
Guest:It wasn't like, oh my God, I've got to get in those ladies' panties.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, not in the way you would think, but in the way.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was never that way.
Guest:And people still have a hard time understanding that that's even possible.
Guest:That I could be so divorced from a moral whatever that I would use that as a tool.
Marc:Well, it's not moral.
Marc:It seems to me that was a natural trajectory if you're performing and you're doing music and you're doing club music and you are into the theatrics of it.
Marc:It's not that big of a belief.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:Not to me.
Marc:Not from a...
Marc:a mohawk and a loincloth.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:If you're gonna go there, why not go under drag?
Guest:Absolutely, it wasn't a leap at all.
Guest:When I was about 13, 14, 13, I carried a magic marker with me everywhere I went so that I could write the word Bowie on everything that wasn't moving.
Guest:obsessed he was it right obsessed i love him obsessed so you know um so no and and then coming from where i come from and monty python and then it was not monty python and bowie yeah wouldn't have never assumed wasn't a stretch at all so um but you know it's funny but once i did get into drag and there were different levels it started with um gender um f word um i won't say the other i mean i could but i won't um gender f word which is a genre of drag that's like gender fuck uh
Guest:it's just it's like what the Monty Python did but this was more with a punk social you know anarchy thing with smeared lipstick and you know combat boots and ripped up clothes and like yeah and you know give them the finger who are the big definers of that yeah
Guest:Well, the Cockettes from San Francisco.
Guest:And actually, the whole punk movement was like, well, how far can we go with screwing up the Matrix and what we're supposed to do?
Marc:Well, it seems to me that in a lot of drag that...
Marc:comedy is essential, that there is a comedy to it, that there's a comedy to the attitude, to the performance, and that self-referential, what you were talking about before, that you can do this, you can present yourself a certain way and then sort of mock it from within, is a comedic disposition.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Once you take that journey and go, okay, I'm going to take the red pill, then you're on your way to understanding, really understanding what it is we're doing here.
Guest:And what it is we're doing here is, you know.
Guest:Not taking yourself too seriously.
Guest:In fact, I was at Norris High School, my teacher, the acting teacher there, he told me the best advice I'd ever gotten from anybody ever and then since, which is he said, Rue, don't take life too effing seriously.
Guest:And that is the key to navigating this life.
Guest:don't take it so seriously.
Guest:And that's when the party begins.
Guest:So if you take that red pill and you start your journey, you're going to discover, like Dorothy, all roads lead to Oz, that you get up close and you look behind that curtain and you go, you're the wizard?
Guest:You're the wizard?
Guest:You're the wizard?
Guest:You're the wizard?
Guest:The little guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you get to know the wizard and you go, okay, so everything was all in my head.
Guest:I imagined this whole thing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And exactly.
Guest:And that's where in lies the party.
Guest:That's where you can really have some fun.
Guest:The only thing you have to watch out is for other people who feel threatened by your party.
Marc:What was your experience with that early on?
Guest:with other people you know i've been very lucky you know i'm a sweetheart people um generally generally people are very sweet to me yeah i'm very i've had a really good never been you know beaten up or any of that stuff never have well once you got through uh once you got done with we we pull and once the uh the sort of the clouds opened and delivered you the the drag memo uh what was your first um incarnation
Guest:Well, the drag memo had come in many different forms over the years until I put all the pieces of the puzzle.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Well, first of all, as a little teenage boy, people would always say, are you a boy?
Guest:Because I had a huge Afro.
Guest:In fact, in ninth grade, I won Best Afro and Best Dancer.
Guest:You know, and on a technical level, my features are not very hard.
Guest:I have, you know, a small nose, relatively speaking.
Guest:And just the features, you know, so there was that.
Marc:It was always there.
Marc:It was always there.
Marc:And androgyny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then actually, once I was at Illusions on Peachtree at Peachtree and Tenth, which is down the street from what you were talking about.
Guest:And I was watching this drag club, this entertainer.
Guest:Her name is Dina Jacobs.
Guest:She lives in Hawaii now.
Guest:And she was singing live.
Guest:And I thought, hmm, that's an interesting angle.
Guest:I'm going to take note to that.
Marc:As opposed to lip syncing.
Guest:As opposed to lip syncing, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, huh, interesting.
Guest:Save that, pucked out of the way for later.
Guest:And as time went on... Actually, let me tell you, the first time the band got into drag, we all decided... Now Explosion, the name of the first band, sort of first band, decided to get into drag as a gimmick for one of the shows.
Guest:So we all got into drag, and as a joke.
Guest:But the people's reaction to me, I wasn't prepared for.
Guest:They were like...
Guest:girl damn hey i'm like what what are you talking about i was like your legs you look gorgeous oh boy i'm like what huh it wasn't the reaction i was so um you were hot i was hot you're foxy but it was foxy and i was still doing gender f word i was still doing that right but you couldn't hide the beauty couldn't hide the fierceness
Guest:It was like, oh, that's who you are.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And it's a very powerful feeling once you get that reaction from people.
Guest:You're like, wow.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:It's like magic.
Guest:It is like magic.
Guest:And I do the same.
Guest:I'm wearing a suit right now when we're talking right now.
Guest:I've changed clothes three times a day.
Guest:I can be in a cowboy outfit.
Guest:I love that sort of chemistry, that alchemy.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:I mean, it's making me wish I had some changes.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, you still have time.
Guest:I'm sure we could whip something up for you.
Marc:Well, I'm just thinking about it because if you look at rock and roll and you look at that, it's just such a short jump because I wouldn't have never assumed that until I talked to you that the evolution was not a sexual identity evolution.
Marc:It was a rock and roll music evolution that you go from Bowie into the New York Dolls.
Marc:I mean, all of them.
Marc:I mean, even Mick Jagger to a certain degree, there's a very fine line between drag and whatever the fuck some of those guys are doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you start out with the gender fuck stuff, but when do you really start to become glamorous?
Guest:Well, from Atlanta, I had become sort of a big star in a small pond in the whole club scene down there.
Guest:And the next natural evolution is to move to New York.
Guest:And I had to start all over.
Guest:What year is that?
Guest:I moved to New York in 84.
Guest:Then the city spit me out after six months.
Marc:Or did you spit you out?
Guest:Well, the city spit me out because I couldn't find a place, couldn't find the work.
Guest:I was sleeping on the piers, sleeping on couches.
Marc:Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Marc:What, you got no money?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And you go up from Atlanta, and you got your suitcase full of outfits.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:And a dream.
Guest:Well, but the outfits were more, it was still more of that sort of punk androgynous new wave thing.
Marc:So it wasn't straight up drag.
Marc:You couldn't just integrate into whatever was going down.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It was sort of downtown East Village thing.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And City spit me out and went back to Atlanta and got myself together and moved back to- Now, are you drinking a lot now during all this?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, God, yes.
Marc:So you're kind of fueled by that as well?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:What were your drugs in?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I was awake in Baker forever.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So weed and booze.
Guest:From the time I was 10 years old to the time I was 39, about 39.
Guest:No powders, though?
Guest:whatever you got i didn't have any money so so you know the easiest thing to get was you know booze weed and acid because acid was only five acid guy five bucks a pop you're surprising me five bucks a pop so i would and of course i'm one of those you know ride a dime so i'm hit do like five hits of acid at a time
Guest:From the time I was 21 to the time I was about 29, I dropped acid once a week.
Guest:And it had to be at least four or five hits.
Guest:What the fuck did you do on acid?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:We would go out to Six Flags in Atlanta or even Six Flags out in New Jersey and ride rides all day long on acid or whatever.
Guest:I would do it by myself sometimes, actually.
Guest:Most times I would do it by myself.
Guest:I'm deeply surprised.
Guest:Why are you surprised by that?
Guest:You know what year I'm born in, you know the trajectory, you know the timeline.
Marc:I know, but I got RuPaul coming over and I'm like, I make assumptions about people, not to judge them, because I want to, a lot of times what I do here is I get an idea.
Marc:You're an idea in all of our minds.
Marc:But I remember that I saw you in New York once out of makeup and I'm like, holy shit, that was mind blowing.
Marc:So I don't know what I'm getting into.
Marc:So I have this idea of who you are.
Marc:And the best thing that can happen in here is that it's completely wrong.
Marc:So the idea that we go from Monty Python to David Bowie to acid once a week, sometimes alone on an amusement park ride, that's thrilling to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But as you just said that, that sounds like the natural course.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But you know what's interesting, people making assumptions like that, because it's a safety thing.
Guest:It's a way to protect yourself, to go, okay, I think I know when I'm going to get here, so I know what to expect.
Guest:But what if you lived your life in a way where you don't...
Guest:You don't even care.
Marc:Just along for the ride.
Marc:Well, I think what you're talking about when you talk in this way, which you have several times, is a life without fear.
Marc:And I think that that is a struggle.
Marc:That it's going to happen no matter what.
Marc:And if you're frightened and you're fighting it, it's going to be a harder road for you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, I mean, to let go of fear in a real way, to have the faith to do that, is no easy trick.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And it sounds to me that at some point in your life, with acid and with just audacity, that you were like, fuck you, fear.
Marc:It seemed like it was more hands-on than it is now.
Marc:It seems like you've relaxed into it, but it seems that in developing and coming into who you are, it was not always that easy, or you wouldn't have been pummeling yourself that much with drugs and...
Guest:Well, yeah, but I always knew to run into the flame because I want to get to the other side of the flame.
Guest:But the fear part of it really had to do with other people.
Guest:The thing I'm the most afraid of on this planet is ignorance of other people.
Guest:They're the wild card.
Guest:They're the wild card.
Marc:You don't know when someone's going to come out of nowhere and hit you in the head for no reason.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Or the depth of someone's own self-loathing and where that will take them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you base that on?
Marc:I mean, what is your understanding of that?
Marc:I mean, I understand what you're saying as somebody that, you know, if you're not straight with your own shit, you're not going to be able to control yourself from making someone else pay for it.
Marc:And I think culturally that is the most threatening thing about ignorance.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:You know, actually I do a webcast myself and this is all we talk about.
Guest:Really?
Guest:This is all we talk about is this movement of what it's like to be a human on this planet and to navigate.
Guest:And how to navigate, you know, the bigger dangers are coming from inside.
Guest:The calls are coming from inside the house.
Guest:Get out of the house.
Marc:Get out of the house.
Marc:You being your house.
Marc:The vessel.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:There's a mutiny.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:it's it is the most dangerous and then uh you know so but how do you approach something like that i mean the the i mean the biggest obstacle to that type of stuff especially in in talking about acceptance which is what we're talking about and freedom and appreciating someone else's freedom you know as long as it doesn't like you say in the same way you say just keep it out you know you can judge me just stay out of my face that there there has to be two sides to that where it's sort of like oh well they can do what they want to do even if i don't like it tolerance does not imply
Marc:that you have to like what someone else is doing.
Marc:You just have to suck it up.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Although tolerance is actually a judgment.
Guest:Tolerance, you know, acceptance is different from tolerance.
Guest:I know, but it's the first step.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We can't.
Guest:If you can get people to tolerance, you got a better shot at acceptance.
Guest:I'll take tolerance.
Marc:We can't ask for utopia here.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:We have some hard cases to work with.
Marc:But when you say that the threat of that ignorance or that idea that it's in the house, I mean, how do you approach that?
Marc:I mean, it seems to, like outside of it being a personal way of thinking, I mean, you see it as a cultural problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, my thing is about overriding the system, overriding my own system.
Guest:You know, even coming here, I was frustrated in traffic.
Guest:And I thought, you know what, Ru?
Guest:The fact that this is happening, you know, it's important for you to follow through with it because you don't know where this is leading.
Marc:You know?
Guest:It's like, even with like an acid trip where you start off and you... Actually, I never freaked out on acid.
Guest:I saw other people freak out.
Guest:And some people know what I'm talking about.
Guest:A lot of times when you take acid... You feel the launch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You get to actually look at yourself.
Guest:You get to leave your body and look at yourself.
Guest:And sometimes what you see is so scary because you see yourself from a perspective that you would never, ever get to see otherwise.
Guest:And I like to call it the Google Earth button when you get to see the whole landscape.
Guest:You go, oh, my goodness.
Guest:That in relation to...
Guest:Oh, I know where Highland Park is, you know?
Marc:And so... But the assets, so you really found that you learned something from it.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:In fact, everything that's led me to this seat right here is part of an experience that is so beautiful and so crazy.
Guest:And when I look back on this whole life experience of being RuPaul, I'm going to go, oh my goodness, that was amazing.
Guest:I loved it so much.
Guest:And I wish I would have done that more.
Guest:I wish I wouldn't have been so afraid here.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Well, honestly, I wish I'd been more of a slut when I was younger.
Guest:You missed out.
Guest:I missed out.
Guest:The thing is that people, you know, I feel I'm very sensitive.
Guest:In fact, my mother said, Rue, you're too goddamn sensitive.
Guest:I was five years old at the time, by the way.
Guest:They know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, if I meet someone, if I touch someone, if I'm in someone's presence, I am actually...
Guest:I get all of their energy.
Guest:I can feel.
Guest:I still live in New York and I live here in Los Angeles also.
Marc:I get that too.
Marc:It's a weird thing.
Marc:I'm able to sort of become codependent within seconds.
Marc:In seconds.
Marc:On the subway.
Guest:On the subway.
Marc:It's like, where are you going?
Guest:Is this your stop?
Marc:Can I help you out?
Marc:I have to fight that.
Marc:I have to consciously not do that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because a lot of times you're making it up.
Marc:I mean, you can feel somebody, but just because you're sitting there looking at someone on the subway, assuming like, oh my God, he's probably only has a dog that's sick and he's lost.
Marc:And he might be on his way to work, but I don't know how much of that is fantasy, but it is a weird thing.
Guest:It's a weird thing.
Guest:Even in New York, a lot of times, especially since I've been sober now for like 15 years, I don't have that... I can't... It's hard to be around all these people without a little something extra.
Guest:So by 3 o'clock in the afternoon, I've got to go home.
Guest:Exhausted.
Guest:I've got to go home because I've taken on so many people's energy and they're...
Guest:I wonder what the hell that is because I feel that too and I don't always know what it is because my personality that I move through the world with does not really suggest that because there's some part of me like I think it's a need to connect I think it does suggest that you're a comic you're an astute observationist you know you take on the world you are the storyteller of the world so you have to listen and you're listening that's what it is you're hyper aware of
Guest:what is going on but you can get hurt very easily for no reason you can but what's wrong with that you know what there's a way for you to deal the way to deal with it is to uh you know is to to transform that energy once it gets inside of your body and making making it work for you takes a lot of energy to do that yeah but um that's how you do it don't be afraid of that energy you walk through the fire yeah you know lift up your skirt and fly ladies yeah yeah
Marc:So how did this, how do you see this as an obstacle to you having more fun when you were younger?
Guest:Because if I met someone, even if just anonymously, you know, I don't want everybody's energy.
Guest:I don't want, you know, the idea of it, which is this anonymous thing where it's like, hey, how are we looking for woohoo?
Guest:Or even when I was really drunk or something, I immediately sober up and go,
Guest:who are you yeah who are you yeah what are you doing you need to go deeper i need to go deeper and in fact i realized too um young you know that the connection i really wanted yeah uh was a deeper connection it wasn't just yeah yeah no that i i feel the same way because it's like the the surfaces don't they they're not they don't they're not satisfying well it's just like the wizard of oz where you have this idea of what the wizard is and then when you get there you're like oh yeah
Guest:Or it's like the relationship between a film projector and a screen.
Guest:You turn the lights on and you go over to the screen, you go, wait, this is just paper.
Guest:You're the projector.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:And so you project all of this energy onto another person or to the metaphor of the screen.
Marc:And it's quite exhausting for some people.
Guest:Sure it is, but depending on how big, how vast your imagination is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I know you have a vast imagination.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But knowing that you have a vast imagination is part of understanding of overriding the machine or N-word rigging the machine.
Guest:It's a way to navigate what you are.
Guest:So when did you go back to New York?
Guest:Well, I still live in New York.
Marc:No, but I mean, 84, you get spit out.
Marc:You go back to Atlanta.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I moved back to New York in 87.
Guest:At 87, my Saturn returns.
Guest:I was about to turn 28.
Guest:Actually, Saturn returns starts heating up at about 27.
Guest:It doesn't really end until the dust doesn't settle until about 30.
Guest:So all of that period was really, really, really hard, really tough trying to make a living.
Guest:What were you doing?
Guest:Well, I was still working in clubs, go-go dancing, hosting and stuff.
Guest:And when I moved to- Glamorous now?
Marc:Not genderfucked?
Guest:No.
Guest:By that time, I had moved into what I like to call street hooker.
Guest:That was my look was street hooker because I wanted to look like a soul train dancer.
Guest:So everything was, you know- Dirty.
Guest:Was dirty, but fun, like a Mary Jane girl or Vanity Six.
Guest:And where are you dancing?
Guest:Where are you dancing?
Guest:At the Pyramid, at Mars, at what were some of the clubs back then?
Marc:I remember the Pyramid.
Marc:That was down where I lived.
Marc:I lived on- It's still there.
Guest:Second between A and B. Yeah, the Pyramid, it's on Avenue A between 7th and 6th Street.
Guest:It's still there.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So to be competitive at that point, I had to leave the gender, I'll say it, the gender fuck behind and be competitive and say, well, if they think I'm sexy in the gender fuck, I'm going to give it to them in my street hooker look.
Guest:And I was, you know, it was high.
Guest:It was trashy.
Guest:It was trashy, but it was hot.
Guest:So I got the motherfucking jobs.
Guest:I worked.
Guest:And in 89, by 89, I'd become, at that point it was a big deal, but I'd become the Queen of Manhattan.
Guest:It was a title they would give someone every year.
Guest:A drag title?
Guest:There was a king and a queen.
Guest:So that year, 89, 1990, I won Queen of Manhattan, which was the pinnacle of downtown success.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:So after my reign had ended, I decided, okay, where do I take it?
Guest:And by that time, other neighborhood kids had jumped ahead of the line in the fame line for me.
Guest:And I was like, it was Delight.
Guest:The group Delight, Groovy in the Heart.
Guest:They had jumped ahead of the line.
Guest:I was like, wait a minute.
Guest:I was in line to go to the big time before you.
Guest:So that woke me up.
Guest:And I decided I would work on my demo tape.
Guest:I wouldn't do as many club gigs.
Guest:So you were like, fuck those guys.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Who were your role models for the sort of dynamic?
Marc:Who were your female role models?
Guest:Well, it had always been Cher and Diana Ross, that kind of thing.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:the typical things that type of glamour and that type of um why share why is it always shared i'll tell you why because she in the same and this is this is the same with all of the gay female icons throughout joan crawford judy garland because these people embody the duality of strength and uh vulnerability they they have both the power and the softness they're they they're both they're um i always wondered this
Guest:This is actually why.
Guest:And everybody who relates to them feels that exact same strength as being a man, but also being emotional and soft.
Guest:The power of Judy Garland's voice.
Guest:And she wants to give until it hurts.
Guest:And she's so big.
Guest:This is like 4'11".
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Powerhouse.
Guest:But so vulnerable and so lovely.
Guest:Cher is very kind of butch, the way she acts, but she's hiding the fact that she's actually a sweet girl.
Guest:You know, when I met her in person the first time, I was taken aback by how...
Guest:beautiful she is in person the camera picks up she's gorgeous gorgeous amazing but when you see her in person you're like oh my god yeah something she's got it she's got it anyway same with diana you know this powerhouse and she's so charming all of that you know so and the madonna is clearly a man right so you know she's got all of all of those aspects all of those aspects i never found her to be as dynamic as the other woman you're talking about no because she is spectacles
Guest:Well, this is... Madonna is a curator.
Guest:She is... She understands how to market... I mean, everybody knows this.
Guest:She's more of a curator, and that's where we are in culture today.
Guest:The world is caught up to what she's doing.
Guest:Tom Ford, the designer, or Karl Lagerfeld, they are curators.
Guest:They're not necessarily... Tom Ford doesn't know how to sew.
Guest:He doesn't sew.
Guest:Karl Lagerfeld doesn't sew.
Guest:Madonna, the same...
Guest:She sings, she actually does it all.
Guest:Not like the greatest, but she knows exactly what to do and how to put it together.
Guest:And that's the genius.
Marc:Yeah, that is the genius.
Marc:But I feel like because of how fragmented and how chaotic media has become, that there's actually a movement more towards a type of authenticity, of actual sewing.
Marc:I'm hoping sewing will come back.
Guest:Yeah, that's you projecting into the world.
Guest:You know, that's a cute idea.
Guest:Actually, it's an adorable idea.
Guest:Well, I'm going to sew, Ru.
Guest:I'll be here sewing in my garage.
Marc:You can go do your organized spectacles wherever you want.
Guest:Well, the thing is, I mean, you look at H&M or you look at Zara and all these big companies and Uniqlio or whatever it's called.
Guest:You know, they know what the consumer wants and the consumer wants it now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they want... And it doesn't have to last long anymore.
Guest:Doesn't have to last long.
Guest:Six months, I'll throw it away.
Guest:Honey, you put it in the washing machine and it's done.
Marc:But that's okay.
Marc:That should be the saying for H&M.
Marc:That's her slogan.
Marc:Put it in the washing machine.
Marc:It's done.
Marc:Come back and get a new thing.
Marc:And I'm cool with that.
Marc:I'm cool with that.
Marc:Well, the price is right.
Marc:It'd be one thing if you were spending $500 on something, but you go to H&M, you're like, a shirt's $12?
Marc:Wear it tonight and throw it away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so Delight puts a fire under your ass.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:They put a fire under my ass and I decide, okay, I'm going to get to it.
Guest:So I go to my old friends who I know from the East Village who are starting this company and I say, look, I want to do this.
Guest:What kind of company?
Guest:Well, they have a production company called World of Wonder.
Guest:And they produced today, they produced RuPaul's Drag Race.
Guest:They produced my talk show on VH1.
Marc:You've been with them since then, huh?
Guest:They produced an album I did in 86 called RuPaul is Star Booty.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I've been with them for many years.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Loyalty's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm Scorpio, so loyalty is a big one for me.
Guest:And we have so much fun together.
Guest:So I went to them.
Guest:And then went to some other friends from the East Village, Matthew and Zaldi, and they put together a look for me.
Guest:And they said, you know, let's go super glam.
Guest:Let's do Glamazon.
Guest:And that's what I did.
Guest:I jacked up the volume, added one dash of Cher, a tablespoon of Dolly Parton,
Guest:and a heaping shovel full of Diana Ross, and voila, you get RuPaul Glamazon, supermodel of the world.
Marc:And that was the break.
Marc:That was the break.
Marc:And what was exactly the thing that launched you?
Marc:It was the Arsenio Hall Show.
Guest:Arsenio.
Guest:Yep, the Arsenio Hall Show.
Guest:What's up with you?
Guest:What's up with RuPaul?
Guest:What's up with RuPaul?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's what did it.
Guest:And overnight.
Guest:And my mother, you know, she was about to, metaphor here, she was about to go to Paris.
Guest:And she got to see the very beginning of my fame before she moved on.
Guest:And it was so brilliant because here she had this prophecy that I would be this famous something.
Guest:And she got to see it come true.
Guest:And was she thrilled?
Guest:She was.
Guest:I remember one point she said, they had put her bed in the living room.
Guest:We were watching television because I knew that Kurt Loder had done the story on me for MTV.
Guest:They did a teaser for it on MTV and she looked over at me and she said, Rue, nigga, you are crazy.
Guest:She got it.
Guest:She got it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:You've arrived.
Guest:I've arrived.
Guest:What did your dad think?
Guest:My father was never present in a bigger sense of it.
Guest:I spent so much of my life trying to go, look, I can dance.
Guest:First of all, I recognized him as my soul brother.
Guest:I recognized him as someone, a kindred spirit I'd spent many lifetimes with.
Guest:But he was out of your life.
Guest:He was out of my life, but more in a broader sense because I recognized him when I came to this planet.
Guest:Bear with me.
Guest:I'm from California.
Guest:Just hold on.
Guest:I said, I know you, buddy.
Guest:You're my buddy.
Guest:Let's do it.
Guest:Let's party.
Guest:And he's saying, I can't see you because I can't see myself.
Guest:And my response to that was, you want laughter.
Guest:You want joy.
Guest:You want dancing.
Guest:I've got it.
Guest:I've got you.
Guest:And I would laugh and dance.
Guest:He couldn't see it because he couldn't see himself.
Guest:So that motivated me in my life to...
Marc:make let make him see me you gotta see me i want to do this in general in general in general i think that's the best way i've heard that book because i've i think that people men specifically in my experience whose fathers were either absent emotionally or physically the ambition is to you know look at you know see me yes please see me yeah yeah at whatever cost yeah
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and that's what I did until the time I was actually about around the time I got sober and got into therapy and I stepped back from show business for many years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I self reflected and I realized that's what I was doing with him.
Guest:And I changed what motivated me to do what I do.
Guest:I changed that carrot in front of the cart.
Marc:Yeah, because that one, those needs can never be met.
Guest:Never be met.
Guest:And it's it's it's unfulfilling.
Marc:Yeah, and you don't know that.
Marc:That's one of the reasons why you do drugs, you do all this thing, because you have this drive, and you know you want to show yourself and be rewarded for it, but if the emotional needs are father approval, those days are over.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's why the Wizard of Oz is so important.
Guest:That's why that analogy is so important, because you have this journey.
Guest:I want to get there so I can get what I need.
Guest:You get there, you look behind the curtain, and you go, that's it?
Guest:That's the guy?
Guest:That's it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you have to sit it out.
Guest:And that's actually what Saturn Returns is all about.
Guest:You sit it out and you go, you recalibrate what your ambition is about.
Guest:Unfortunately, you know, it took me many years after that to recalibrate what I would.
Marc:Well, how'd you do that?
Marc:Because I could maybe use some of that advice.
Guest:Well, you know what you do is you start with you.
Guest:What makes you happy?
Marc:It's weird that you don't know.
Marc:Isn't that funny?
Marc:I mean, I'm 50 and I'm at like one of those kind of precipice.
Marc:I'm at the precipice of that right now.
Marc:It's like, all right, so this is it.
Marc:You're doing okay.
Marc:Why don't you feel okay?
Marc:Well, what do you want?
Marc:I don't fucking know.
Marc:You know, to really figure out what your own needs are and what really makes you happy as opposed to what makes you sort of feel that hit of like, yeah, look at me.
Marc:It's tricky.
Marc:Well, it's tricky, but, you know, I don't know how much time we have, but, you know.
Marc:It's not enough to fix me, but give me a few pointers.
Guest:Well, you know, there's this thing with my father.
Guest:You know, I have this scene in my head that with my father...
Guest:Where actually on weekends, he was supposed to come pick me up, and I would sit on that porch, and he would never show up.
Guest:Well, let me tell you this.
Guest:That scenario in my head is a benchmark in my head, right?
Guest:So I had inevitably looked for situations to strengthen my identity as the little boy who was left behind.
Guest:Because on some level, that identity is what drove my buggy, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Once I'm able to let go of that identity and say, that's not me, and I don't get off on that, then the party can begin.
Guest:But it's very tricky because, like I said, that tail grows back, and sometimes it'll creep in through someone else, a different person, like, now playing the role of Rue's father is...
Guest:So once you recognize it, once you hit that Google Earth button and get some perspective, you go, oh, there it is.
Guest:That's it right there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Cut that out and say, what do I like?
Guest:It's like, first, I'm not that little boy on the porch.
Guest:And second, I was never that little boy on the porch.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What rocks my boat now?
Guest:If I wasn't that, then what are you?
Guest:Well, I love to laugh.
Guest:I love to dance.
Guest:I love to look at people and go and do things.
Guest:And that's where the real party begins.
Marc:Now, were you ever able to express this to him as a man?
Guest:no no no he couldn't get that it wasn't it was never about you know how dogs you or cat uh where you have a stick and you throw it yeah and the cat or dog doesn't realize it well it would be a dog wouldn't it um doesn't realize that you've let go of the stick and the stick is over there but the dog is still looking at the hand yeah it's like and you're like no dummy i threw the stick over there and it's still looking at your hand like your hand yeah has the thing right
Guest:He was just an instrument, my father, for me to understand that the stick was over there.
Guest:So stop, get out of, don't focus on the stick.
Guest:The prize is over there.
Guest:Once you get over there, there are even more prizes.
Guest:You have many lifetimes in this one lifetime mark.
Guest:Don't get stuck on that identity.
Guest:That's why when I started doing drag, and that's why it's such an important idea, the idea of drag, is that you're not the things that says you are on your driver's license.
Guest:You're way more.
Guest:Right.
Marc:are god in drag do you understand how grand that is how many things you could do it's outrageous it's unlimited you just have to transcend uh that faulty relationship with this idea of what your expectations are relative to your father and transcend the fear of fun
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Don't be embarrassed to have fun.
Marc:Don't be embarrassed to have joy.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And you have to ask yourself, do I really want joy?
Guest:Am I really fixated on being that boy on the porch?
Guest:Or do you really want to have fun?
Guest:Because some people aren't.
Guest:So you give people advice or you say a solution and they're like, yeah, but...
Marc:I think for me, and I don't know that it sounds like it's the same for you, I think that experiencing joy and having fun the way you want to have fun is a vulnerable place.
Marc:So I think that one of the things that I seem to be afraid of is being mocked or hurt in that place.
Marc:I don't believe that.
Guest:I think that what you really, there's a certain dance, there's a certain J.O.
Guest:factor of the agony of, you know.
Guest:oh god i can't nothing ever works out for me come on i don't believe that that is not who i am well but you listen you're right you look at the machine when you look at the machine we're not that any machine we're not that unique in one machine to the other some are they have little differences here and there but mostly all the machines are the same yeah um you know that's what happens with the machine and when you can override it when you can n-word rig it yeah you can then you can party then you can say you know what i'm
Guest:You know, your fear of looking stupid is holding you back.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:I don't care what people say.
Guest:I ain't studying you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Maybe I'll go get some dresses.
Marc:You can get dresses.
Marc:You can do whatever.
Marc:How long have you had that shirt you're wearing right now?
Marc:It's pretty new.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Well, I mean, I got it from the TV show.
Marc:They bought it for me.
Marc:What, you think I need a new shirt?
Guest:Well, you know...
Marc:Okay, okay.
Marc:I'm going to write that down.
Marc:Get new shirts.
Marc:Paul says so.
Marc:Get new everything.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:Makeover.
Marc:We should do a makeover show.
Guest:I'll shave.
Marc:I'm going to shave later.
Marc:well no no there's just so much time you have and you want to look back and go yeah you know what i kicked the fuck out of this shit yeah i did it i did it well you definitely did i mean i i like when i was kind of browsing over the major accomplishments the uh well i thought it was very interesting that you were the first uh drag uh personality to get a makeup deal that's a big deal yeah well it
Guest:it is a big deal it's a big deal do you find that you what kind of feedback do you get from fans in terms of inspirational like you being an inspiration listen i've always said you know my goal was never to be a role model right no no supermodel but um my goal was to have fun that i like to laugh i like to dance i like to party i love music but if and you know that's my goal but if somebody gets off on what i'm doing right on but that's
Guest:That's a second, that comes after.
Marc:But it's an amazingly gratifying thing.
Marc:I mean, I'm in the same boat and whatever I'm doing here, I get this feedback where it's sort of like, you know, you helped me out.
Marc:And there's nothing really more rewarding than that on an emotional level.
Guest:Well, yeah, although...
Guest:Yeah, okay, sure.
Guest:It is.
Guest:But it's still not as fun.
Guest:Everything has to start from you.
Guest:If you created this whole program, this computer program, then it starts with you.
Guest:Joy is something that emanates from within.
Guest:Happiness comes from outside of you.
Guest:It does?
Guest:Yeah, happiness comes from outside of you.
Guest:Joy emanates from within, and that is there for you at any moment.
Guest:It's up to you to decide, am I the boy on the porch or am I God in drag?
Guest:And I can change any situation from the inside out.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I got a lot of work to do.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:I know you.
Marc:You're there.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm just acting.
Guest:Well, you know, some people are so fixated on the being without or being, you know, their smaller self.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:The smaller self.
Marc:So now, okay.
Marc:Another question I need to ask just on a general way.
Marc:The answer is 36, 24, 36.
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:And yes, they're real.
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:They're real and in the car.
Yeah.
Marc:It's not on right now.
Marc:But wait, what is it?
Marc:You know, I've gotten to, in terms of words, tranny, bother you?
Marc:What, does word tranny bother me?
Marc:No.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I love the word tranny.
Marc:Like, there's the transsexual, transgender community.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's not the transsexual community who's saying that.
Guest:These are fringe people who are looking for storylines to strengthen their identity as victims.
Guest:That is what we're dealing with.
Guest:It's not the trans community, because most people who are trans have been through hell and
Guest:And high water.
Guest:And they've looked behind the curtain at Oz and went, oh, this is all a fucking joke.
Guest:But some people haven't.
Guest:And they've used their victimhood to create...
Guest:To create a situation where it's, no, you look at me.
Guest:I want you to see me the way you're supposed to see me.
Guest:You know, if your idea of happiness has to do with someone else changing what they say, what they do, you are in for a fucking hard-ass road.
Guest:Because the ego would have you think that if you stop doing what you're doing, Mark, if you change that shirt, then I'll be happy.
Guest:that is a trap that's a trap that the ego will have you it gets you every time yeah so the truth is um listen i've been up against that you know i have yeah um um you know my 32 year career speaks for itself right i dance to the beat of a different drummer i believe everybody you could be whatever the hell you want to be yeah i ain't stopping you yeah but don't you dare tell me what i can do or what i can't say or do it's just words yeah we
Guest:Words hurt me.
Guest:Bitch, you need to get stronger.
Guest:You really do.
Guest:If you're upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think.
Guest:I'm telling you this.
Guest:A lot of people are going to get upset about this, but the truth is
Guest:We have established that this is all a joke.
Guest:There are people who take the Matrix seriously.
Guest:It's like a play.
Marc:If you're going to be outside the Matrix, you can't play by its rules or try to break the rules of the Matrix.
Marc:You just live outside of it or you're in it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Bingo.
Guest:It's like a play.
Guest:If you're in a play on stage and, oh, I'm playing this character and you're playing that character.
Guest:If you press freeze and you go off the stage and you look at the play and go, oh,
Guest:oh, I see where this is going.
Guest:I understand what this is.
Guest:Then you go back into the play, hit the pause button and go, okay, let's have fun.
Guest:I'm going to have fun now.
Guest:But you can't take it.
Guest:My teacher said, Ruth, don't take life too seriously.
Guest:Some people will force you to say, I want you to take me seriously.
Guest:It's like, okay, well, I think I need to go someplace else.
Yeah.
Guest:Because you're not in the same play that I'm in.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:But do you deal with flack for how you... You know what?
Guest:I have just recently, our show got into some thing with it.
Guest:But these are four people... RuPaul's Drag Race.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Four people who have a Wi-Fi connection sit behind a computer in God knows where and deliberately misinterpret our verbiage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and decide, you hurt me or you decide, we are not doing anything to you.
Guest:That's how you interpreted it.
Guest:And that is your, you have the freedom to do that.
Guest:But we're coming from a place of love.
Guest:And in fact, the ego cannot discern the intention.
Guest:I can call myself a nigger faggot tranny all I want to, because I've fucking earned the right to do it.
Guest:I've lived the life.
Guest:I've been on the front line.
Guest:And my intention, if I call my other girlfriend, bitch, you know, she knows I'm talking about it from a place of love.
Guest:She knows that.
Guest:And so, you know, but people out of school, out of, could take that same information and try to use it against me.
Guest:It's like, because it can't, the ego cannot pick up the intention behind it.
Marc:I understand what you're saying because the sort of, the censoring,
Marc:You know, even though it may, you know, it may make someone else comfortable or play to a broader social sense, cultural sensitivity.
Marc:Like, I think what they're asking for, it seems to me, is to be respected as a community or to be respected as somebody who's trying to be who they are.
Marc:And they see any sort of verbiage.
Marc:that they see as negative is an obstacle.
Marc:Whereas if you live the life and you transcend all that shit, you're truly free.
Marc:You know that the voices, the calls are coming from inside the house.
Guest:It doesn't change from the outside in, it changes from the inside out.
Guest:But you know, listen,
Guest:There's nothing you could say to those people that will change it because it's an element of the machine, of the psycholite.
Guest:We all have that.
Guest:Some of us can transcend it more.
Guest:That idea that the world is against me, there's a conspiracy against me.
Guest:But it's the same as in the book Animal Farm or Orwell's Animal Farm where the animals forgot why they had a revolution in the first place.
Guest:And the pigs started walking up on their hind legs.
Guest:He's like, no, no, no.
Guest:The reason we do this is because we wanted to start something different, something new, something broader.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But they want to go back to- They insist on playing by the matrix rules.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:They secretly just want to be Farmer John.
Guest:Yeah.
Right.
Guest:right you know yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's like what what it's a there's a this conversation it's a lose lose conversation i actually stayed away from this dialogue this dialogue for forever because it's a lose lose situation you cannot win with this when you're up against the ego you will only come up your ego will bring out their ego and that's how wars get started that's right
Guest:But it's like, you know what?
Guest:I believe what I believe.
Guest:You believe what you believe.
Guest:Let's just call it a truce.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I think that's a good way to end.
Marc:You?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:It was lovely talking to you.
Marc:It was fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was far more amazing than I could have ever anticipated.
Marc:Good.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:What a smart fucking, you know, grounded dude.
Marc:That helped me out.
Marc:It helped me out.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Please get the app.
Marc:If you're new to the show, only the most recent 50 are available for free.
Marc:You can get the free WTF app at the App Place and upgrade for a few bucks to premium and stream all of them.
Marc:And do whatever you got to do over there at WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:You know, I got, I have work to do.
Marc:I have to write some songs.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Boomer lives!