Episode 493 - Stephen Malkmus
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Marc Maron.
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fuck a delix what the fuck minster fullers what is that fucking sound come on come on that's pavement man come on listen this it's gonna happen in a second fucking pavement why am i playing this here we go here we go oh shit
Marc:I've been listening to this for days.
Marc:You know who Pavement is, right?
Marc:Is anyone listening doesn't know who the band Pavement is?
Marc:Doesn't know who Steve Malchmas is?
Marc:Doesn't know who his new band is, Steve Malchmas and the Jicks?
Marc:Do you not know?
Marc:Here we go again.
Marc:You ready?
Marc:This, you know, it's weird when I interviewed him, I'm like, well, I'm going to listen to Pavement again.
Marc:That was weeks ago.
Marc:I've not stopped listening to Pavement.
Marc:I got to turn this off now.
Marc:I got to turn it down because I got to focus.
Marc:Wait, it's going to happen again.
Marc:They're going to go up with that when he's going to scream.
Marc:Fucking Pavement, man.
Marc:yeah yeah all right enough enough enough enough that was jarring to turn it down like that steve malchmas steve malchmas was sitting across from me in this garage steve fucking malchmas pavement man hi i'm mark maron this is wtf am i just i'm a little excited i guess
Marc:All right, let me just do a couple things.
Marc:Let me do a little business.
Marc:My show, the new season of Marin on IFC, premieres May 8th.
Marc:I'd like you to watch that.
Marc:The first episode is great, as are the rest.
Marc:So enjoy that.
Marc:I believe my vinyl...
Marc:Album, Thinky Pain, my last special is being released on CD and vinyl, a double vinyl, a double album, vinyl.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com, check the calendar.
Marc:I'm going to be in Nashville, I believe on May 18th, doing a one-on-one WTF with Vince Vaughn.
Marc:That should be interesting.
Marc:One-on-ones live are kind of tricky because, you know, the compulsion to entertain is there as opposed to just a compulsion to chat, if you know what I'm saying.
Marc:I've been playing a lot of guitar.
Marc:I think it's important that you know that.
Marc:There's a couple of things that you need to know.
Marc:Some of them not happy.
Marc:Some of them happy.
Marc:I've been playing a lot of guitar because I'm processing feelings.
Marc:Some people meditate.
Marc:Some people run.
Marc:I've been running as well.
Marc:I've been trying to run.
Marc:And that's when I've been listening to pavement.
Marc:But I play guitar because it works for me to sort of get out of myself.
Marc:You know, I'm very candid with you people.
Marc:And things happen in my life that I have to process before I can share them because I have to figure out how to share them and what I'm feeling about it.
Marc:And you guys have been through some shit with me.
Marc:I know that.
Yeah.
Marc:The thing is, is that Moon and I, it did not work out.
Marc:And it's it's it's paralyzing and it's sad.
Marc:It did not go on too long.
Marc:I have so much love and respect for that woman.
Marc:She's a genius and an amazing person.
Marc:And and, you know, I'm in love with her.
Marc:But whatever was happening throughout my life and whatever was happening throughout her life that kept us apart, when we had the window to be together, we took it.
Marc:And I don't know that we were emotionally prepared for each other.
Marc:And it's a sad thing when something you want so desperately to work out just can't.
Marc:It just can't for whatever reasons.
Marc:Um, but, but as I said, I have nothing but love for that person.
Marc:And I don't know, I don't know what to do anymore when it comes to, to relationships.
Marc:I believe, you know, we did the right thing and, uh, and I hope the best for both of us.
Marc:And we both learned a lot about each other and about ourselves during the, the, the very intense, very engaged five months we were together.
Marc:But I just, I
Marc:I guess I got to be alone.
Marc:I don't, I don't know how much my, my heart can really take in terms of, of trying to make, or not even make, but just trying to, I've got to figure out what I want.
Marc:I've got to figure out what I need.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, we just sort of, you know, plow blindly into things that our hearts believe they want, you know, and I believe that there was destiny to this, to this, to this relationship.
Marc:And I, and I believe it was,
Marc:profound but i i just it just it just couldn't work and it's uh and i don't know what to do you know i'm a grown-up and you know some parts of me are are better than others but like i do i just have to give up on relationships altogether i i don't know i i guess i just you know i got to be alone and just deal with uh being alone and being okay with that and and just you know not i don't know i don't know what to do i don't know how to do it
Marc:And it's upsetting to me.
Marc:It's upsetting.
Marc:And I imagine I'll keep trying, but it's like, it's just, and I think there'd be another point in my life where it could have went on for years and compounded, and I don't know.
Marc:I just, I don't know what to do.
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I know exactly what to do.
Marc:and listen to Pavement.
Marc:I mean, like, sometimes, like, I mean, what are my options?
Marc:I can't do drugs.
Marc:I can't drink myself into a coma.
Marc:I just... I just gotta feel it.
Marc:I just gotta feel it and move through it.
Marc:But I don't think I can play this whole song without getting into trouble.
Marc:So now I'm gonna have to get back into the feelings.
Marc:Okay, I'm back in the feelings.
Marc:So I just wanted to get you guys in the loop.
Marc:There's no big story.
Marc:It just didn't work out.
Marc:And I'm sad, but yeah.
Marc:I do want to thank the people that came out to the Tripany House for all the shows.
Marc:They were very exciting.
Marc:I went some places I never thought I could go comedically, and I shined some light in some darkness and moved through it, and I think we had a great time.
Marc:I think the hour is going to be a great hour, and I really want to thank you all for coming out.
Marc:And I want to thank my mother for for causing all the difficulty as as and I'd also like to thank my father for being the very specific type of pain in the ass he was for destroying me on an emotional level so I could be the creative person that I am.
Marc:You know, that's the other thing.
Marc:And I've said this before.
Marc:I tend to believe that my parents are an emotional terrorist organization and I am some sort of Manchurian candidate, an emotional suicide bomber that will detonate as soon as he gets into the country, into the parameters of intimacy.
Marc:And I will just explode in chaos.
Marc:Sad.
Marc:Here's the deal.
Marc:I'm starting to believe that, you know, I believe I'm a good person.
Marc:I believe I'm an emotionally capable person.
Marc:I believe that I have an open heart, but I believe that sometimes my heart is overly sensitive and closes up and gets defensive.
Marc:Now, you guys know that about me.
Marc:So some of the things that I got to choose about the future of my life is what do I want out of relationships?
Marc:And now here's the weird thing is that I think that my relationship with you, whoever's listening to this right now.
Marc:is actually a fairly genuine relationship.
Marc:It may seem one-sided to you, and it is, but who you get right here on this mic is really the best that I am.
Marc:And I'm starting to believe that sometimes the best relationships I have are with the people I talk to across from me.
Marc:Because there's no tremendous emotional risk for me in being wide open and connecting with that other person and their story.
Marc:And I think that's really me at my best.
Marc:uh, in a lot of ways.
Marc:So I just, I don't know if I'm asking you to, I don't know what I'm telling you.
Marc:I'm telling you that, that our, our relationship, our relationship is very important.
Marc:And the relationships that you guys witnessed through your ears that happened in an hour, uh,
Marc:are very important.
Marc:And, and really some of the, the greater moments of my life, quite honestly have happened, you know, sitting across from, you know, relative strangers, uh, you know, listening to them.
Marc:Uh, I, I don't know if that's sad or what, but, but there's, there's, there's part of me that, that needs to, to sort of have a deeper appreciation for what happens here because, you know, this is my life's work folks.
Marc:This is my life's work.
Marc:And, and, and, and along those lines, um,
Marc:We just got a note.
Marc:Look, I've been trying to get Albert Brooks on this show for a long time.
Marc:And, you know, we've gone through people.
Marc:We I've exchanged moments with him on Twitter, but we've been trying to pursue him because I wanted him to do the 500th episode.
Marc:I thought that would be great.
Marc:He will not do it, but he did his his his people sent this note and I want to read it to you now.
Marc:Uh, Mr. Brooks is well aware of Mark and his wonderful podcast.
Marc:When the time is right, we will let you know, but at this time he is working on a project.
Marc:He wanted me to let you know that it will happen before one of them dies.
Marc:So, so look forward to that folks before myself or Albert Brooks die.
Marc:Uh, we will be talking in this garage.
Marc:I promise his word.
Marc:All right, let's talk to Steve Malkmus.
Yeah.
Guest:how'd you end up in portland i went there on tour yeah there's a two-pronged reason first a long time ago i'm from california we went up there i was in forestry and 4-h club and we went um when you were a kid
Guest:Yeah, we would plant trees.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because I lived in an agricultural area, Stockton.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I didn't do like animal husbandry or anything.
Guest:I did jogging, running.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which my parents did.
Guest:It was the 70s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Running was really in.
Guest:It's always in.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that was the start.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Jim Fix, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:marathons and so they said we'll have a running thing and then I did the forestry and someone knew someone up in Portland that worked for a logging industry and they had us come see like the other side of forestry you know not the trees like just using them for the man to build the lumber industry yeah so we stayed there but I really for some reason I thought it was kind of cool up there back then it's so different from here yeah
Guest:Then later, I did some tours there, and I liked it.
Guest:I was feeling the manifest destiny to come back west, but I didn't... L.A.
Guest:in the 90s.
Guest:When did you get here?
Marc:2004.
Marc:I was here briefly for a drug-addled period in the late 80s, about a year.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I came back in 2002, and I've been here since.
Guest:I think you came at the right time.
Guest:I think it got better.
Guest:There was something about the 90s that seemed...
Guest:sort of vacant to me.
Guest:So I didn't want to come here.
Marc:Musically, or in general.
Guest:Overall, I don't know.
Guest:I didn't know that many people that were living there right now.
Guest:It seems like a lot of people I know live here now.
Marc:It seemed like there was a big transition out of hair metal into whatever else happened.
Marc:There was like a...
Guest:almost a decade of like there was back i mean back kind of well there was like the chilies yeah and uh kind of k-rock metal which is it is what it is and uh san francisco i'd already lived there so i kind of just picked portland portland's great because like i i don't know what what you feel but like up the pacific northwest just the feeling of the landscape it's like you really feel something
Marc:That's true.
Marc:There's something about the gray and the sort of weight of it.
Marc:It's weird, man.
Marc:It feels like you're closer to the top of the world or something.
Guest:I think I liked even just the raininess.
Guest:I'd never been in rainy and drinking coffee and strong coffee in the rain.
Guest:I was into that.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:That's all.
Guest:I didn't know what it would really entail, which is always living there and it drives you crazy.
Guest:I don't quite have a handle on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I don't want to.
Guest:I don't really like to talk like it's a real naval gazey place right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because they have the show Portlandia, you know that probably.
Guest:And that has a certain cachet and there's lots of people going.
Guest:I think it's a city that's really looking at itself.
Guest:yeah it's feeling proud of it which is it should but it just i kind of feel pathetic talking about it you know yeah i just want to live there you know yeah when i go up there i just like i don't get a i don't know what the fuck is going on yeah there's a there's a lot of try too hard around but there's also there's very few black people there's not many people of any
Guest:color up there it's a little bizarre that is bizarre I think there was a history there but I don't think anybody really talks about Seattle too there is I mean I don't know why I managed to live in Berlin and Portland like Berlin is creepily white too you know although it's European now there's lots of people from all over Europe and there's Turkish Turkish population
Marc:Like a big Turkish population?
Marc:It's always weird when there's these populations of people that you know nothing about, like Armenians.
Marc:I don't know what they're doing over there, but they have a very specific thing.
Marc:Fresno.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Fresno.
Marc:Right down the street in Glendale, too.
Guest:William Soroyan is from there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What was Berlin?
Guest:What year did you live there?
Guest:Last two years.
Marc:Oh, so it was already broken.
Guest:Like last... Just got back in August.
Guest:What was the intent?
Guest:Was it creative reasons?
Yeah.
Guest:uh more exploration just can you do that at my age can you just go somewhere what i mean what did you take anything away did it affect you in any way uh i think so again i can't say specifically the place i mean i met new people and went to did you record from uh no i recorded in europe yeah the new album in belgium
Marc:What's the newest one called?
Guest:Wig Out at Jag Bags.
Marc:Because I listened in the last month.
Marc:It was a weird experience I had with Pavement recently was that I was going through my iPod and I was on an airplane.
Marc:And I'm like, I haven't listened to Pavement in a while.
Marc:I'm going to put that on.
Marc:And I was like, holy fuck.
Marc:This stuff is still great.
Marc:It doesn't sound any different.
Marc:It's timeless.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:How is this possible?
Marc:And I listened to most of the Pavement on one flight.
Marc:And I just had a head full of Pavement.
Guest:How far was the flight?
Guest:It was like seven hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We can, I think.
Marc:You can fill seven hours?
Marc:I don't think so.
Guest:But I always was hoping that it was music for the future.
Guest:I mean, I think everyone who's not that successful in their time tries to think that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not that we are completely unsuccessful.
Guest:I wouldn't be here right now.
Guest:But, you know, you're kind of.
Marc:You did think about that.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:That it holds up anyways.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it does.
Guest:Because the bands you like, right?
Guest:You like the Velvet Underground.
Guest:They're still good.
Guest:They're just as good as any band from today in my mind or whatever.
Guest:So I think if you're inspired by those groups, hope that that rubs off.
Marc:Well, I think that it's a matter of production and it's a matter of not attaching the sound to a period.
Marc:I mean, the stuff that doesn't really hold up seems to be stuff of its time.
Marc:There's a few Neil Young albums where I don't know where they came from.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:It's timeless.
Guest:It's hard to say how that's going to be, though.
Guest:You know, as people's tastes change, I mean, it's sort of a modernist assumption, you know, that...
Guest:those recording styles that we like are going to be the ones that the future likes.
Guest:I mean, you never know.
Guest:It might be all level 42 and Mike and the Mechanics will be the Velvet Underground.
Marc:I know that's not going to happen.
Marc:I'm willing to bet that.
Marc:I'll say right here publicly that Mike and the Mechanics is not going to be the Velvet Underground of the future.
Marc:You heard it here first.
Marc:That's controversial.
Marc:So you grew up all in Stockton?
Guest:No.
Guest:Pavement?
Guest:No, you.
Guest:Just me, well, Los Angeles, just down the way.
Guest:So you're like, you're a local guy.
Guest:You know this place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got a lot of family here, but I don't feel like I know it.
Guest:I mean, when I was seven, that's the real LA.
Guest:This new stuff is, I don't know.
Guest:When you were seven?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the time you put on it.
Marc:When I was seven, that's when this city was great.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:You were what?
Guest:73.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Steely Dan was just starting and- You Steely Dan?
Guest:Manson thing.
Guest:We were just getting that out and there was gas crises and riots and Watts and-
Guest:People dressed real cool for the first time.
Guest:There were good movies made auteurs.
Marc:A lot of them.
Guest:The true auteurs.
Marc:The next generation of them.
Marc:Scorsese, De Niro, Coppola.
Marc:Yeah, it was rad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you remember all that.
Marc:You were part of that at seven.
Marc:You were running around.
Guest:I had a friend who was in this movie called Bound for Glory, which was the Woody Guthrie story.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they were twins.
Guest:I said, I have a friend.
Guest:I considered them one because they looked alike.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I don't know if they still do the twin things with children.
Guest:It seems like Hollywood wouldn't care about that anymore.
Guest:What, the backup kid?
Guest:Yeah, they would have a stand-in.
Guest:It was much easier.
Guest:Right, because there's laws about kids.
Marc:You might as well have two of them.
Marc:While one of them studies, you get the other one in.
Guest:Yeah, so they work less, and they were in Bound for Glory.
Guest:I tried out for some... I tried out for Radon and Tebe.
Guest:It was a TV movie.
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't get that part.
Guest:What were you auditioning for?
Guest:Extra, just a kid that was trapped by the terrorists, you know?
Marc:Were your parents encouraging you?
Marc:Hostage.
Guest:Yeah, they thought the... We have a lot of Hollywood... And one of my cousins was in a Sunkist ad in the 50s, which was... They live in Santa Paula on Orange Grove, and Sunkist wanted to film it there.
Guest:And there's a little red schoolhouse, and they're all in the red schoolhouse.
Guest:And then...
Guest:This bell rings and then this truck pulls up and there's like a sun-kissed truck.
Guest:And they open it up and there's a tree, an actual tree in the back of the truck.
Guest:And they like get it and they pick one.
Guest:And he's in that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you can't see that on YouTube.
Guest:No?
Guest:No, it's real though.
Guest:The only thing they don't have on YouTube?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They had a copy of it in the 70s.
Guest:I don't know what happened.
Guest:On VHS?
Guest:On Betamax?
Guest:Before that, I think.
Guest:It might have been film.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you have a little bit of show business in your family then?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did your dad do?
Guest:Not much show business.
Guest:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:He was an insurance broker.
Guest:The opposite.
Guest:i mean everyone's angry about insurance yeah aren't they what insurance do you like is there an insurance where anyone's like i'm really into this insurance health insurance everyone's pissed life insurance it's just a confidence game gamble yeah like a really i think that's what pisses people off is like what is covered and why it's covered and if it's covered and how it's covered and do you understand your insurance policy and why is it so confusing yeah
Marc:It's like Vegas.
Guest:I mean, it's like Vegas.
Guest:You can take odds.
Guest:You can ensure this pitcher's arm.
Guest:It's like betting on it or something.
Marc:Did you go to that school down in Santa Monica?
Marc:Do you have a fancy background?
Marc:No?
Marc:What is the name of that place?
Marc:You know what I'm talking about?
Guest:Crossroads?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:No.
Marc:Did you have friends there?
Guest:My dad went to a decent school here called Harvard.
Guest:that's a good school yeah he says it's like the hardest one to get into now oh the high school the fancier one that's what he says yeah i don't know he said he couldn't get my kids and i said can you get my kids in in there if i move here and he said probably not even though really even though he's alumni yeah and he gave it was all boys back then how old are your kids
Guest:nine and six boys no both girls yeah two girls is it fun do you like it yeah yeah it's really fun did you always gotta get on that train yeah if you're not already did you were you on the fence for a while
Guest:And I was just... I didn't think about it like everything.
Guest:I just jumped into it.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't think about it either.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:It didn't happen.
Guest:Well, that's the thing.
Guest:It could have not happened.
Guest:I wouldn't have been surprised if it didn't.
Guest:But, I mean, there must have been something that I wasn't admitting that I really wanted it or something, right?
Marc:Is it the best thing in your life?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:How did it turn out?
Marc:Yeah, it's really deep.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Why didn't I do this earlier?
Marc:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I think you should enjoy your 30s like in your...
Guest:without kids i mean of course maybe later i'll be saying something different but when you're dating i mean i'm not what i do i'm just saying you can look back to your when i didn't have kids and i was 30 if i look at like when was it so awesome those were really kind of awesome times as the free the clint eastwood of you know yeah the lone gunman yeah life the one that was good
Marc:of pop music and in the 30s your 30s you kind of have that i think more yeah um you're not committed you're not kind of old yet but you're not young yeah my concern is that uh because i don't have kids that i'll be forever kind of missing some peace to my ability to be with uh you know with people like i think it teaches you a selflessness that that it happens innately but you don't know you have it until it happens
Guest:like i don't have like but if you're aware of that i mean unless you're just totally neurotic or something like i think you really you're on the right path yeah i can get it without kids maybe i can still be a full person or it's not it's i don't know like how much you regret it do you regret it regret it not really because i think i'm a panicky nervous person i almost had one but yeah i choked
Guest:It's just that some people I know, if you do have these kind of deep regrets of things you didn't do.
Marc:You know people like that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not men as much as some women.
Guest:It didn't happen.
Guest:They missed the boat.
Guest:Yeah, they really wanted to.
Guest:It's something they think about all the time.
Guest:That's sad.
Guest:But they also don't know that it's obviously there's stuff that they get to do that we breeders don't.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just whatever.
Guest:Like whatever they want.
Guest:Watch TV.
Guest:Watch movies, eat cereal, leave cereal bowls.
Guest:It's got all over your house.
Guest:That doesn't sound very fun, actually.
Guest:It sounds depressing, but...
Marc:So are you guys touring now with the Jicks?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like a lot?
Guest:We have recently in the last month.
Guest:Do you take the kids?
Guest:No way.
Guest:Never.
Guest:They couldn't handle this.
Guest:We're not at a level where we travel in a bus.
Guest:If they wanted to be back there in kind of a hippie caravan, it doesn't work.
Guest:We're bottom line.
Guest:It's just like a van.
Guest:I mean, would you take a kid on a stand-up tour?
No.
Marc:I just had my 15 year old niece in town and I took her to some shows and that made me a little uncomfortable.
Marc:I mean, you gotta have somebody watch them and you gotta, I mean, they're going to get bored.
Guest:15 though, nine and six, you have to arrange babysitters.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you play like every night, like seven nights in a row ever?
Marc:No, not any, not anymore.
Marc:I mean, I do a lot of local spots, but if I tour, it's for, you know, two nights, maybe one night if it's a little theater or something.
Guest:What would it be like to do seven nights in a row?
Guest:Would you lose your mind, kind of, or would that feel good if you were into it?
Marc:No, it feels good because you gotta, you know.
Marc:You get better, you get the timing.
Marc:Yeah, if you're working new jokes, you know, it's like, I imagine it's a little like music, trying to get something right, and you're hoping something happens every night that's never gonna happen again.
Marc:I imagine that, do you get a thrill out of that?
Guest:Yeah, but we have a set list and like four people that have to kind of be on the same.
Guest:We have some little points where it can go off the rails in a good way.
Guest:Do you allow for that?
Guest:Do you used to allow for it more, huh?
Guest:No, more now, actually.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we're more dexterous musicians for whatever reason.
Guest:I mean, there might have been more like a noise jam in pavement.
Guest:It seemed like you were really pushing the edge of noise.
Guest:Well, yeah, we were just beginning and also our influences were very obscure, I guess, bands like Swell Maps or Chrome.
Guest:I mean, you usually, the music you do is a, some of it is you, but 80% of it is like a fantasy of other people you liked or, you know, you're sort of,
Guest:Not necessarily.
Guest:Expressing your love for what they did.
Marc:They're not intentional.
Marc:It just sort of seeps into you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't know how referential.
Guest:I know comedy on a macro level or it's very referential to the point of people like stealing your jokes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like that next week or something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's just building.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I mean, I don't know if you're just like, I want to get a Lenny Bruce bit in here or something.
Guest:Push the envelope.
Yeah.
Marc:Take it out there.
Marc:Well, yeah, you see what people will take.
Guest:I mean, I think there's abuse or whatever.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:An element of like, I wonder if they're going to be able to handle this shit.
Marc:Did you feel that?
Guest:Well, I did earlier.
Guest:I'm more giving now.
Guest:I think you're more grateful or something.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:People are there.
Guest:You think about how long it took to get there in their car or to get a babysitter or what they could have been doing.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:At least in a town like London, because I get cranky in cities.
Guest:I'm like, all this traffic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's not even that you like us or you spent 20 pounds.
Guest:It's more like how much work to be in that spot was it?
Guest:So I respect you for doing that.
Guest:I'm not going to like...
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it also took you, like, what, 25 years to get here?
Marc:I mean, you've got to have some... You know, there's a point with yourself where you feel like, you know, I'm an accomplished musician.
Marc:I've got an amazing, you know, bulk of work.
Marc:I'm still doing it.
Marc:I still like it.
Marc:People seem to dig it.
Marc:They're not coming... You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You cross a line where you're like, you can be comfortable in what you're producing.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I mean, early on.
Marc:I mean, when did you start really playing the guitar?
Guest:Like...
Guest:pre-adolescent.
Guest:I wouldn't call it really playing.
Guest:Really playing?
Marc:Well, I mean, what inspired you to do it?
Guest:I was in high school, or before that.
Guest:Well, high school, I think, there were just some older dudes that were playing, and they seemed like they were having more fun than the sports guys.
Guest:And...
Guest:You know, I liked Credence and Devo.
Guest:I was kind of a mix between these two bands.
Marc:Yeah, Credence is great.
Marc:That shit holds up on vinyl, dude.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I interviewed that guy.
Marc:That was insane.
Marc:It holds up everywhere in the jukebox.
Guest:I still have jukeboxes.
Marc:I asked him, I asked John Fogarty, I said, well, because his records, I got a few of it on vinyl, and it's solid.
Marc:It sounds great.
Marc:And I said, when you were producing, what was your approach?
Marc:He said, I would just picture how it would come out of the speaker and the dashboard.
Marc:So when the guitar is playing, put that up front.
Marc:When the vocals are playing, put that up front.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, his vocals never had a problem getting up front with that voice.
Marc:That's for sure.
Marc:He's amazing.
Marc:So, but what was like the first stuff you played?
Marc:I mean, how'd you learn to play?
Marc:Punk.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you take lessons?
Guest:I took some lessons before that from a couple people.
Guest:One, an old man that I was just learning, you know, really simple folk songs, but that was before high school.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then I took some lessons from my mom's friend from Est, who was like- From Est.
Guest:Yeah, he was like a coffee house.
Guest:He played at Blackwater Cafe in Stockton.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He would wear a tank top and he kind of had BO and stuff.
Guest:And he had a weird Yamaha guitar.
Guest:And he played all his coffee house with the electric soft.
Guest:But he taught me something by the Beatles.
Guest:He taught me weird chords, like diminished chords.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:His own versions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I really like that.
Guest:I wanted to get beyond...
Guest:Smoke on the Water and just Louie Louie, even though I like those.
Marc:Isn't it weird that those remain a constant in learning guitar?
Marc:Like that and Sunshine of Your Love, Smoke on the Water, Louie Louie, anything that you can wrap your hands around at the beginning.
Guest:Yeah, it's the same with even classical music.
Guest:They're playing like Twinkle Twinkle.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:It's a way in.
Guest:You need a way in.
Guest:But once you get just that little seventh, those things where you're like, oh, I'm, or the Hendrix Purple Haze chord, the chink, chink, you know, it's like you're learning the secret.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, the whole missile, that moment where you get that.
Guest:it's a pretty amazing moment and you realize it's not even that hard yeah which is uh yeah but of course there's farther you can go but so that took me and then i wrote tunes in the punk band i was in a punk band what were they called straw dogs uh from the west coast not there's a boston one not that anyone's gonna notice except they probably listen to your podcast but
Guest:In the van.
Guest:Yeah, we were a band in Stockton.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we opened for some other groups from back in the day.
Marc:Yeah, like who?
Guest:Like, I'm just going to brag a little bit here.
Guest:Circle Jerks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Black Flag.
Guest:All the LA punk bands?
Guest:TSOL.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Code of Honor.
Guest:There's DOA.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Some bands like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Always the first on for 20 bucks, but we did play.
Marc:But were you like 20 years old?
Marc:No, I was 16.
Marc:So you were the local guys, and punk was so sort of marginal anyway, so the scene was pretty small, I imagine, at that time.
Guest:Very small.
Guest:There was a couple bands from Stockton, a very good one called The Authorities.
Guest:They made one single, and they were the only ones that got documented.
Guest:But...
Guest:but there was a little bit we played in sacramento san francisco just that triangle for like one year but there was a band before called the young pioneers that we they were a communist they were communist you know that was their angle right they were like communist youth uh-huh and so all the songs were like kinko the pinko and communism right now and red america uh-huh
Guest:but we dropped almost all those songs and started as a straw dogs more pure yeah and what were you what kind of songs were you playing just straight out just jokey jokey fast uh-huh not political you had a good drummer dead kennedy yeah he was really good he was into discharge yeah his name was glenn he he he was the best part of the band it's important to have that with the fact outfit when he quit yeah
Guest:Then we got the drummer from Young Pioneers, and he was like a junkie, kind of... He liked the dead and stuff, and so it was over.
Guest:Dope and the dead killed it, huh?
Guest:You're not a dead guy?
Guest:I am now, but back then I didn't like him.
Guest:You couldn't.
Guest:You wasn't allowed.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:There was some dead punk crossovers, not just Black Flag and some other meat puppets, but there were in my school.
Guest:There were some...
Guest:Because they were counterculture-ish, although they were, by the 80s, verging on... Like, you've seen that Touch of Grey video?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like your mom wearing a purple tie-dye or something, you know?
Marc:I think they're amazing.
Marc:I mean, I was never a deadhead.
Marc:I like them too, but... I was never a deadhead, but those albums, the studio albums, are pretty fucking wild, and nothing ever sounded like that before.
Marc:And it seems like some of that, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like some of the Silver Juice stuff in David Berman, there was definitely something laid back and inspired by that type of music.
Guest:Was that there at all?
Guest:I don't think he liked the dead, but...
Guest:he likes country yeah our newer I mean I like them as a example of I guess to be cliche like weird America just the way they built their their scene right and develop their own their own world you know sort of not many people were able to do that their own iconography and even though it was west coast yeah pretty strange yeah trippy I think is the word long and strange yeah
Marc:So from the punk thing, how did you evolve from there?
Guest:I mean, did you left town?
Guest:I went to school, and then I just met, like, again.
Guest:Where'd you go to school?
Guest:UVA in Charlottesville.
Guest:Have you ever been there?
Guest:I've been to Virginia.
Guest:I don't know if I've been to that campus.
Guest:It's a historic place.
Guest:Edgar Allan Poe went to school there for one year.
Guest:He got kicked out for... Morphine?
Guest:He never did morphine.
Guest:That wasn't true.
Guest:He was an alcoholic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But gambling debts primarily.
Guest:In college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they were betting with these local innkeepers.
Guest:The school was like brand new when he went there.
Guest:It was just Thomas Jefferson died that year.
Guest:And, yeah, he got kicked out.
Guest:And then so he went and joined the Army.
Guest:And then he decided he wanted out of that.
Guest:And then he went to West Point.
Guest:Somehow his parents got him into West Point.
Guest:And he totally failed out of there, too, because he was just dissolute and drunk.
Guest:Too smart for everybody.
Guest:I mean, he's a genius.
Guest:There's nobody.
Guest:He invented so much stuff.
Guest:He's like.
Guest:You love Poe.
Guest:yeah he's beyond I don't know who Dylan you know I mean he made the science fiction and detective novels and he started all that stuff really he's ours too yeah he is he's from the US of A so were you obsessed with him no you just like got into it because you went to school where he went to school I didn't even like him back then I mean I thought he just wrote kids stories you know things that were kind of haunted spooky stories with you know people reanimated and
Guest:When did you go back to it?
Guest:Recently.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm coming back right now.
Guest:That's why I know all this.
Guest:To Poe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm reading about his life day by day.
Guest:I have this thing called the Poe Log.
Guest:It sounds kind of scatological, but it's not.
Guest:It's just a day by day, everything about him, every scrap of information.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I guess it's kind of dry.
Guest:Are you getting more out of the poems and the stories?
Guest:Not yet.
Guest:I'm just into his life right now, and then I get to read back on it again.
Guest:I like the stories better.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm not a big poetry guy.
Guest:I try to be.
Guest:Are you?
Marc:I was.
Marc:I was.
Marc:I wanted to write poetry.
Marc:When I went to college, I was writing it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:My guys were like...
Marc:I read a little Poe, but I like William Carlos Williams, Emily Dickinson.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:She's amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm all for her.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you have that experience with poetry where you, like, you know, some poems, all right, who cares?
Marc:But occasionally you'll read one and that thing will happen in your head, like that first Jimi Hendrix chord where you're like, oh, what is, what?
Marc:And that's happened with her a couple times.
Yeah.
Guest:Wallace Stevens.
Guest:I got into that.
Marc:Great.
Marc:How about Rilke?
Marc:That's some good shit, too.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can't get that.
Guest:No?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Too... I don't know why.
Guest:Just... Maybe it's the translation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People are always worried about that.
Guest:You know, that... I mean...
Guest:things need to be re-translated for our time or who did the right translation Baudelaire there's a few Baudelaire did all the Poe yeah oh he did yeah he translated yeah he translated into French yeah and made him a star there well yeah I could see that that makes perfect sense I've read a lot of the different Baudelaire translations those things those poems are amazing yeah he's I think I like it because it's filthy Flowers of Evil yeah yeah
Guest:Rambo.
Guest:I tried to get into that in college, too.
Guest:I think I just like American poets.
Guest:Whitman?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just wanted to fuck the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just wanted to hug it.
Guest:Hug the world.
Guest:Yeah, Poe hated the transcendentalists.
Guest:He thought they were Emerson and stuff.
Guest:He's like, these guys are so boring and fake and mannerist.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I also like that when you're in your time calling out these sort of holy grails.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Blake was another one.
Marc:I don't fucking understand Blake, but Jesus Christ, man.
Marc:He had a fucking system.
Marc:Pictures, mythology.
Guest:Yeah, he's got... Built it all.
Guest:He's like the rock and roll poet, isn't he?
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:I mean, I can't... And some people are so invested in it.
Marc:Ginsburg was completely invested in Blake, and I can't, you know...
Guest:Do you interview poets ever on here?
Marc:I haven't.
Marc:I haven't.
Marc:I got a friend of mine who I went to school with who used to live in my, he was a roommate of mine briefly, and he's a pretty big dude, pretty big poet guy.
Marc:He's up at UC Davis.
Marc:I can't understand his poems at all.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, his name's Josh Clover, and he also writes Cultural Crit.
Marc:He wrote a book called 1989 about Nirvana and the Berlin Wall.
Marc:It's just way, like, it's English.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, some cultural criticism.
Guest:Theory style.
Marc:Well, yeah, I can't.
Guest:Where'd you guys go to school?
Marc:I went to Boston University.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I applied to BC and my parents did.
Guest:I had to meet some local Catholics in, we're not Catholic, but outside of,
Guest:They had to vet me or something.
Guest:I'm like, what's up with that?
Guest:The Jesuits had to vet you.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And that was it?
Guest:You were like, fuck that place?
Guest:I'm not going there.
Guest:Boston's so confusing.
Guest:Did you like it there?
Marc:It was a good place to go to school, but now I go back.
Marc:and everything that I remember about it's gone.
Marc:You know, like Kenmore Square and whatever the rock scene was back in the, whatever, when did I go, in the 80s?
Marc:It's all gone.
Marc:It was so vital.
Marc:Like the music thing in Boston was so vital and everything's gone.
Marc:The Rat's gone.
Marc:Bunratty's gone.
Marc:Everything's gone.
Marc:So there's nothing there.
Marc:It's weird.
Guest:It's like hospitals and schools kind of, isn't it?
Guest:That's what it looks like to me when I was just there.
Marc:I spent a lot of time there, and I started my comedy career there.
Guest:There's good fans, good intellectual people, for want of a better term, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, what was the experience in Virginia?
Marc:I mean, that's a good school.
Marc:What'd you do there?
Marc:What'd you study?
Guest:History, but I didn't really... You didn't do anything?
Guest:I wasn't ready.
Guest:yeah i don't know i don't know who is during that time some people are driven and you know even if they are at that age maybe they shouldn't be i don't know well usually they're driven if they've got a future goal in mind when you're a creative person you just sort of i just want to fill my head up with shit i didn't even know if i wanted to do that i was completely confused you know i was just drinking and partying and having fun
Guest:and it was good for that you know there was you didn't have to drive so there were no car wrecks or whatever I mean that's really wander around shit face yeah that's pretty much what was going on it was fun what happened musically there
Guest:There were some bands besides me.
Guest:We'd go see shows.
Guest:Everything came through there.
Guest:Who's we?
Guest:My posse, like Berman.
Guest:So that's where you met Berman?
Guest:Placements were happening, I guess, then.
Guest:That's a great band, man.
Guest:The early Sonic Youth and Butthole Surfers.
Guest:Yeah, wild.
Guest:That was pretty much the ultimate band back then.
Guest:For you?
Guest:We couldn't.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, for everybody.
Guest:I mean, I was just step in line in the butthole surfers for live shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you like the placements?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:They were great.
Guest:Good drive.
Guest:I saw Let It Be tour.
Guest:That was great.
Guest:I saw...
Guest:I don't know what else.
Guest:Just that kind of era, late 80s college rock for want of a better term, Husker Du.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That guy can still turn it out.
Marc:I saw him at Bumper Shoot I think a year ago with doing the Husker Du songs.
Guest:Did you play there too?
Marc:Yeah, I played.
Marc:I have comedy there now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:They have poetry.
Guest:They have a mix of things.
Marc:It's a pretty good festival because it's enclosed and you can leave and come back.
Marc:I can't do those.
Marc:What's that one down south?
Marc:That one, ugh.
Marc:It's outside of Nashville, I think.
Marc:That music festival.
Marc:Bonnaroo?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can't do it.
Marc:The weather's rough.
Marc:The weather's rough and you can't leave.
Marc:There's nowhere to fucking go.
Marc:You're just surrounded by people getting progressively more shit-faced and there's no escape.
Guest:You have to have an tour bus.
Guest:You have to...
Guest:I mean, you're building your rep here on this, aren't you?
Marc:I'll get a tour bus.
Guest:You built it.
Guest:You're beyond built.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're happening now.
Guest:You can have a tour bus.
Guest:You should bring one now.
Marc:With just me on it?
Guest:Just for that one day and your posse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not a posse guy.
Marc:I need a posse.
Guest:Me neither, but you could do it for Bonnaroo, just conceptual posse.
Marc:But you're running around Berman.
Marc:What are you guys doing?
Marc:Are you playing?
Marc:Is he playing?
Guest:Back then?
Guest:Were you involved?
Guest:We had a noise band.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was called Ectoslavia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:um were you serious about it were you earnest no it was no i mean i didn't know goals to do that i didn't know that i could do that and uh just messing around yeah but ectoslavia was a noise band uh nothing then just got out of there
Marc:You didn't play, but you kept your relationship with him.
Marc:Who else did you meet there that stayed in your circle?
Guest:Bob was in the band in Pavement.
Guest:He's the drummer.
Guest:And a couple of bros just from Richmond, like dads now.
Guest:I don't know if they'd like to be called that, but just family guys.
Guest:Yeah, that's where they ended up.
Guest:I'm still with them.
Guest:Then we moved to, is this how it is?
Guest:We just talked about my life a little bit.
Guest:Then we moved on to New York.
Guest:That's pretty good, though, isn't it?
Guest:Then we moved on to New York.
Guest:That's where it happened.
Marc:but do you talk you're saying that like you don't talk about your life a lot well I don't know how the podcast works I don't know how I'm just happy you're talking yeah it could go either way right no I can talk a lot yeah I mean like I had this weird idea you because like there's someone on Twitter as your name
Marc:Yeah, but it's not me.
Marc:I know, but for some reason I would see that and whatever the fuck that guy was tweeting and I'm like, wow.
Marc:And it became an association in my mind.
Marc:I'm like, Malvis can't be like this guy.
Marc:But because I'd see it, it somehow stuck in my head.
Marc:It's not you.
Marc:That's really bad.
Marc:No.
Marc:I knew it wasn't you, but still the identification was there.
Guest:That impersonating in the digital realm really sucks.
Guest:It bums me out, man.
Guest:I used to get letters from this person back when you used to get fan mail, which you don't really get anymore, like in the 90s.
Guest:Had a P.O.
Guest:box, and I would get these long letters from this girl.
Guest:They weren't...
Guest:uh sexual they were more like soul soul revealing yeah long things like we and i it was a one-way thing i wouldn't write back yeah but i was kind of you know i was just like this is kind of a trip yeah no no
Guest:yeah i get emails and then by the end i found out that someone was like fucking with her somehow like writing her something oh really she was giving you her life story and you got invested in it and someone else had been like doing something writing her and as you yeah you know so it was just like some dude in her life somebody that was just knew her but knew she was writing to you yeah started fucking with her yeah
Marc:That's fucking sad.
Guest:That was really weird.
Guest:With this thing with Facebook people, there's probably 97 Marc Marons.
Marc:There's a few.
Marc:I had to shut one down because it pissed me off.
Marc:They're allowed to do that shit on most social networking sites if they state that it's a parody account, but if they tweet as you, it's not right.
Marc:That's a problem.
Marc:Who do you call them?
Marc:I chased it down on Twitter.
Marc:I had a contact at Twitter at the time because the guy who was doing it, there was some scammers that would do that.
Marc:They would try to suck your followers, and then they'd try to sell them something.
Marc:And that guy, he got into it with me on email.
Marc:He was a real fucking nutcase, but it was a scam operation.
Marc:A lot of it's to pull followers so they can scam them somehow.
Marc:Right, that's right.
Marc:Spam, scam.
Marc:So you go to New York with Berman?
Guest:No, those guys went there first and Bob and David, Bob, the drummer of pavement, moved there to work at UPS or just bottom rate, just like cardboard boxes tumbling down at you for $8 an hour.
Guest:You can lose a limb at any time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just the only job he can get.
Guest:And he got an apartment.
Guest:It was in Jersey City.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:That was before Jersey City was Jersey City.
Guest:Yeah, it was nice.
Guest:Heights.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the Heights is right below Hoboken.
Guest:Hoboken was like his dream, you know, like that was Oz or whatever.
Guest:Like someday we'll live in Hoboken.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I was born in Jersey City.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I didn't live there.
Marc:My father grew up there, but now it's a thing.
Marc:Back then, it must have been dicey.
Guest:It was a lot of cheap produce, like third-generation, you know, passed down the last produce that no one else wanted.
Guest:There was a really tall policeman that we called Officer Slitty for some reason, and he would just, like, make his rounds in this park.
Guest:He was, like, seven feet tall.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's really what I remember.
Guest:And you could also...
Guest:on the park you could um in the park if you laid down on the concrete you could put your hand right here in the empire state building would be your penis i've got a picture like that that's good yeah that's a nice memory right that's a good picture i hope you have that picture put that out get that up online
Guest:it's weird what we remember yeah it was a and we fought a lot you and bob all three of us like just just psychological warfare like psychological blood all over the walls like about you ever have relationships like that with roommates or people or just yeah yeah women mixed with alcohol yeah oh yeah but it's hard to know what what it was about do you know what it was about i mean
Guest:Some kind of competition thing.
Marc:So it was you, Bob, and who?
Guest:Who was the third guy?
Guest:Bob and David.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mainly them.
Guest:I mean, there was... What were you guys at it about?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Was it music or just... Just ego struggle and, you know, there was some... What do you call when you flush someone's head in the toilet?
Guest:There was a couple of those sometimes.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Just like physical fights.
Marc:What is that called?
Marc:I forgot.
Guest:yeah oh really you had physical fights with david and yeah it was rough i guess we were you playing at least we also lived in an apartment about as big as this room like the three of us so that's not good no that'll do it that's that's the bottom we weren't playing we were just going to maxwell's seeing bands working in the city worked at the um whitney i was a security guard so was david and uh did you dig that i mean did
Guest:Yeah, it was fun.
Guest:It's fun just to have a job.
Guest:I had dishwashing jobs, never more than three months.
Guest:But in a big city like that, for me to have a job was a huge achievement.
Marc:And at the Whitney, did that have any effect on you?
Marc:There's some good shit there.
Marc:They got the Rothko mobile there.
Marc:They got a lot of stuff.
Marc:Not the Rothko, I mean the Calder Circus.
Guest:calder is one of the big yeah it was one of the it was ed ed edward hopper and calder yeah although they had a reputation for being like avant-garde but that's really what brought the people in was calder the calder circus yeah that's right in the front yeah remember that yeah and they had and you could go watch the movie on the calder circus with all the calder playing with the animals
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That's still, I hope that's still there.
Guest:But they've actually sold the building to the Met.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:So now the Met's moving their collection in there and they're moving downtown.
Marc:The Whitney's moving downtown?
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Yeah, somewhere.
Marc:Did you like being around all that art?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like that place.
Guest:I like the Met.
Guest:Have you been to the Tate, the new Tate in London?
Guest:I've been to the one.
Guest:That's in the industrial?
Marc:Big hangar.
Marc:What the fuck?
Guest:That's one of the best things I've ever seen in my life.
Guest:It's free, too, a lot of it, which is nice for the punter.
Guest:You know, like you don't have to... You can go see the permanent collection without paying.
Guest:That's how it should be.
Marc:Is there art that you feel like you got to see every once in a while?
Guest:Well, my wife's an artist.
Guest:What's her medium?
Guest:She makes...
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Except films.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Mixed media?
Guest:She makes things on the wall.
Guest:They're almost paintings, you know?
Guest:And she makes ceramics.
Guest:Maybe ceramics she got her wings with.
Marc:My buddy.
Marc:He lives in Portland.
Marc:The guy who made that mug right there.
Marc:He makes them for me.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, Brian Jones.
Marc:So your wife's a potter or just ceramic?
Guest:Ceramic.
Guest:She makes just...
Guest:Pottery that ceramicists would scoff at, you know, kind of death-defying.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like abstract expressionist pottery almost.
Marc:That's cool.
Guest:I mean, she probably wouldn't like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Not necessarily practical pottery.
Guest:No, it's art only.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:It's just to sit there, you look at it.
Guest:There's nothing you can do with it except, like, say it's amazing.
Marc:Yeah, that's cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:you have to say that i do i believe it too good good all right so when do you start making pavement records man okay a little bit into the podcast we get to pavement pavement started when we at that time when i was in new york i just go back home to stockton yeah
Guest:The other dude, the founding father, other founding father, Spiral Stairs.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:You know, the lifeblood of the band in many ways.
Guest:He bleeds the pavement.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's, you know, he arranged to press the records.
Guest:We went to this, like, hippie dude's, I'll just call him a hippie dude, Gary Young.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, earlier generation, Yes is his favorite band type drummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A little bit fried, but hard of half gold.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We just happened into his studio, and he recorded those albums, and he played drums on them.
Guest:How many?
Guest:Well, there's the singles that you were talking about first, slow build, through fanzine culture, I suppose.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Fanzine culture being little magazines.
Guest:People were like, this band's cool.
Guest:And then we made Slant and Enchanted, but I was still living in New York.
Guest:I'd just go back there.
Guest:record with them so you guys didn't you weren't touring we didn't practice much there was no no practice just make make it up in the spot so that's all those albums that's real that that feeling yeah of making it up on the spot three hours the singles are made in three hours and then the slant and chanted was like a week though you know but i just would teach the drummer the songs and then i play over it like one or two takes oh my god so it's all improvised almost pretty much
Guest:I had lyrics, though, somehow.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I must have made those before.
Marc:You don't write separate lyrics, ever?
Marc:You don't have, like, here's my notebook, let's go.
Guest:I must have, but I don't remember.
Guest:You really don't remember?
Guest:I must have.
Marc:For all the records, or just for Slanted and Enchanted?
Guest:All of them.
Guest:I have.
Guest:I mean, I've seen the lyric sheets, but I've written them, but I don't remember doing it.
Guest:I don't even know what I was thinking.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's no plan.
Guest:I just...
Marc:But no one sounds like you, either as a singer or a lyricist or a fucking guitar player.
Marc:You found something.
Marc:I mean, your guitar playing is, I don't understand it.
Marc:It's amazing.
Guest:Well, it's tuned different.
Guest:Oh, it is?
Guest:That's differently.
Guest:That's one difference.
Guest:Even from the start.
Guest:First albums, C, G, and then standard.
Guest:Like it's a Keith Richards-inspired tuning that I never learned to play the Keith Richards song.
Marc:So the high E.
Guest:Keith Richards learned it from somewhere else.
Guest:The high E is a C?
Guest:Yeah, you turn and then G, A to G. Oh, A, so the top two.
Guest:And then all the rest.
Guest:You would tune the bright string, the E, is that the high E?
Guest:Yeah, high E. You would turn that down to D, but I didn't even have a D string, or an E string, so I just have five strings.
Marc:So that in the top two are C and G. Yeah.
Guest:And then there's D, A, D, A, B also on those.
Guest:So I tuned E string to D and the G string up to A. So those are like Summer Babe and songs like that.
Guest:That's what that is.
Guest:So that might be one reason that it doesn't make sense.
Marc:And you just did that because Keith did it and you tried it?
Guest:Yeah, I dropped D. I don't know where I heard that.
Guest:I mean, I know Sonic Youth tune their guitars differently.
Marc:But then do you have to play them differently or you just kind of... Not really.
Guest:You can make bar chords.
Guest:It makes them easier, actually.
Guest:It's just one finger across.
Guest:Right.
Guest:but your leads too like you know there's sort of that interplay between rhythm and lead that's like it just uh it doesn't sound like anything else yeah i can't blame that on the tuning but uh i really you know i like sterling morrison i like yeah these kind of rhythm players uh but you were a stones guy i like the stones yeah i wouldn't want to be a stones guy i mean they but the way he plays guitar is pretty fucking amazing
Guest:I know.
Guest:I don't know how, you know, because sometimes you see him sort of ham-fisted.
Guest:They all do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But they're just the Stones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're the good-looking guys, get all the chicks and all the drugs and make the great songs and make a lot of money.
Marc:But, you know, when you listen to Keith, you know, because for years I was like, all right, he's the greatest rhythm guitar player.
Marc:That's what everyone says.
Marc:So now I've got to listen to it.
Marc:And you really listen to it, it's like a little out there.
Marc:It's a little bizarre.
Marc:Like he's just randomly hitting these chords in weird places.
Marc:And it seems to fucking work.
Marc:I don't know how he does it, but he's... Does all right.
Marc:He's great.
Guest:Did you read his book?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Everyone read that book, right?
Marc:How great was that fucking book?
Guest:It was a blast.
Guest:I didn't want it to stop.
Guest:Everyone wants to know what was going on with him.
Guest:I mean, you know?
Marc:But it was surprising.
Marc:Didn't it surprise you how fucking lucid and intelligent and thoughtful he was and how good his memory was?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:I thought he was... I was surprised it was such a big book.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:You know, I had to pigeonhole him.
Guest:Yeah, that's true, I guess.
Marc:You know, great storyteller.
Guest:He remembered everything.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't know.
Guest:I was interested in his later period and his earlier period, you know.
Guest:I wasn't so interested in the...
Guest:already well-documented part, so that was good.
Marc:When he was off reservation and out of his mind?
Guest:Yeah, just tripping out.
Marc:Well, it's amazing how not only ambitious and on top of it they were, but as business people, I mean, he was no dummy either.
Marc:I mean, they knew what was going on with the Beatles, and they were sort of in touch with each other about dropping singles and stuff.
Marc:That was cool.
Guest:Andrew Lou Goldham he deserves a lot of credit really because he kind of set them he set them up with I think he set them not only did he produce a lot of their defining first songs you know he was like this is how you do it we're going to the top here you're a proper band and it's war you know and the enemy is the Who Kinks and the Beatles so get out your stilettos and like let's do this you know
Marc:Did you feel competitive after the first pavement record?
Guest:Not like that.
Guest:But at all?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, with your peers, I think you always want, you measure yourself, probably, right?
Guest:It's not, I mean, you can be a friend of Sabado and... He was in here.
Marc:He's a deep guy.
Guest:He's rad, you know, but you're also like, can we do this?
Guest:I don't know if comedy, I mean, I don't know how...
Marc:Yeah, comedy's competitive, sure.
Marc:It's got to be.
Marc:The best you can hope for, not unlike music, is that you have an authentic sound, and then the competition's easier because you're not kind of hacking anybody.
Guest:Right, you're not stealing or feeling that.
Guest:Of course, you're going to have... You want to have a...
Guest:After, you know, once you finally get there somewhere, you know, then you're just, you need some bros and sisters, some people to commiserate with, you know, to say like this, you know, you want to, doesn't this suck?
Marc:Yeah, right, yeah.
Marc:So you were going back and forth and you were playing with Silver Jews in New York and then Pavement back here.
Marc:Not really.
Guest:Silver Jews was just like a...
Guest:recording in a house and it was just a way to push David into doing something with his genius you know like he was not a music not that I was Mr. Frontman or anything but he was very shy and so we just recorded and then he gradually built up to well like American Water that one you have and it's great envisioning himself as a
Guest:Yeah, like even a kind of country real songwriter.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:It took him a while to get there to find out what he was.
Guest:How's he doing?
Guest:Pretty good.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I think.
Marc:He fights the fight, right?
Guest:He's been through it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where's he living?
Guest:Back east?
Guest:Nashville.
Guest:Oh, he's in Nashville?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't return my emails of late, two of them, but...
Guest:I don't know why that is.
Guest:Maybe they went to spam.
Guest:Are you out there?
Guest:But maybe he's pissed at me.
Guest:You don't know?
Guest:He's kind of stubborn.
Guest:I don't know what for sure.
Guest:I don't know how good he's doing.
Marc:Yeah, I just got into them.
Marc:When I was getting back into vinyl and I was tweeting about it, people were like, oh, you've got to listen to this over to me.
Marc:No, it's good.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Comedy and tragedy and reality and everything.
Marc:Which is the one, the rehab one, the one where he comes out?
Marc:After?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the name of that record?
Guest:I'm on that one too, I think.
Guest:is it tanglewood something tanglewood numbers okay yeah yeah yeah have you ever smoked the back of a fentanyl patch and stuff yeah he yeah he went down and i mean he was gonna just end it but he saw the he saw something like and he's got a great partner and good i don't know how much i want to say about it sure
Guest:You see what happens.
Guest:But he's in his religion.
Guest:He's gone back to the Kabbalah and like Judaism.
Marc:Like old school Kabbalah?
Guest:Yeah, he's really, he's old school.
Guest:Well, he's got like a rabbi.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And he's gotten back.
Guest:He's half Jewish.
Guest:His dad's Jewish, but he's 100%.
Guest:And he's really into studying that.
Guest:Were you brought up with any of that?
Guest:My parents are Episcopalians.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Which is boring.
Marc:But were you a spiritual person?
Marc:They go.
Marc:Were you a spiritual person?
Marc:No.
Marc:Not really?
Marc:No.
Guest:I'm just not.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Still not.
Marc:So do you think that Berman was like, in terms of the two of you, he approaches songwriting different, right?
Guest:He's a poet first.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, and very...
Guest:bland terms like he's a poet and i'm a music i'm a little more air and he's really words every word is uh important and um you know that's kind of what he hangs his hat on i mean he writes a good tune too but he's just like saws at the guitar right you know yeah um but i take inspiration from his style yeah and uh
Guest:He probably learned some looseness from me or I don't know, whatever I have.
Guest:Probably helped him.
Guest:You like the looseness.
Guest:I do.
Guest:It's the only way I know how to really do it.
Guest:You never really want to tighten it up.
Guest:I mean, sometimes.
Guest:I've been in positions, I do, up to a point, like when we're recording.
Guest:I re-sing things.
Guest:I look at the loose stuff and make sure it's loose in a good way.
Marc:So do you think that, which album do you think you really nailed it, like in the pavement?
Guest:Well, American Water I really like.
Guest:The pavement, you know, it's slanted, enchanted.
Guest:You can't beat that young, you know, just opening the Coca-Cola first time you taste it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I would say that.
Guest:People love Crooked Rain.
Guest:I love Crooked Rain, yeah.
Guest:Wowie Zowie's also like...
Guest:For how it came, when it came and how it came out, I should be glad, because it's sort of strangely weird for where we were.
Guest:But then it started to go inching downhill, but there's still... How so?
Marc:What does downhill mean?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think it just gets a little more codified.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:what we were.
Marc:You mean you started to sort of like feel redundant or that you were just doing what you do?
Guest:Yeah, sort of a style.
Guest:I mean, we were trying to mix it up every way we could by using different producers, going different places and...
Guest:But you start to really know what you are and then it's not as... It's a little bit... You know, there's limits to... Yeah, you start playing to that.
Guest:That you can't transcend naturally.
Guest:You can if you are a...
Guest:If that's all you care about.
Guest:But, you know, I didn't know if that change for the sake of change is good either.
Guest:You know, like it's just going to be, you know, there's sort of a life of any idea.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Be it a TV show or, I mean, you can't keep it going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And 10 years is long for any band.
Guest:You guys all get along still?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you toured a little bit?
Guest:Yeah, there's no bad vibes.
Marc:How's the new band different for you?
Guest:um i don't know you know it's also been just as long so it's kind of the same yeah kind of different of it's just different people you know you kind of react i haven't you and i interact i mean i've gotten i've gotten better yeah i go older i think that the songwriting's gotten better don't you yeah well yeah i hope so that would be ideal
Marc:And I think everything, the production sounds like, you know, it sounds like, it definitely sounds, I mean, I don't know if it's a bad word for it, but you definitely sound more mature about your approach to things.
Marc:I think that's good.
Guest:I hope it's good and better.
Guest:You don't, you know, it's hard to escape your moment, your moment when young people connect with you at the...
Guest:you know yeah adolescence and music and that's like so alive yeah you know it's um people are often still chasing that and whatever they in their love lives in their music and everything do you ever feel like a nostalgia act
Guest:Not, yeah.
Guest:I mean, sometimes.
Guest:And rock and roll is a little bit all nostalgia, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:From the first... Every Bruce Springsteen song seems like it's about putting nickels in a jukebox from the 50s or something and getting my motorcycle out.
Guest:And people think he's awesome, so it can't be...
Guest:You know, and just playing guitars, I mean, they're not, like, they're old.
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, like, your fans must, it must be a pretty interesting mix at this point of people.
Marc:I imagine people are bringing their kids.
Marc:That's happened.
Marc:Yeah, like, you know, a lot of your fans are probably your age.
Guest:I have had, just in Dallas the other day, yeah, there was, like, a dad and his kid was, like...
Guest:college age yeah so that was kind of crazy yeah i like that we played in minneapolis and there was this dad brought his like eight year old he was sitting there right in front and then i'm talking about you know the i talk about yeah it's not age appropriate yeah yeah it kind of threw me for a loop it was worse than having somebody with their giant breasts like showing over this kid i was just like totally
Marc:afraid or or a fan just like giving me the finger the whole time texting you know like this was worse than that yeah because it makes you uncomfortable yeah the kids know the father knew that's their responsibility yeah absolutely i sometimes when that happens i'll just go overboard like you brought him we're gonna do a little more than usual
Marc:i like that it's okay you can get away with that because it's funny to uh the greater it's good for the greater audience i guess yeah so what's what's in the future man you're just gonna tour you got are you are you uh are you thinking about what do you think about like creatively when you think about it now like you're 10 years into this i don't know you think about the next move yeah always yeah um
Guest:I don't know what that's going to be, but we're right for at least a year.
Guest:We're still doing that.
Guest:I mean, we don't really know.
Guest:I think...
Guest:I mean, it's still being defined.
Guest:When we play live shows now, they're much different than we act differently.
Guest:It's just a different feeling.
Guest:It kind of depends on how much people are into it, like how much we will give to it at this point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we can just back off if...
Guest:In terms of touring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it's a big commitment.
Marc:It's a hall.
Guest:You know, you want it.
Guest:You give.
Guest:I mean, we give a lot.
Guest:What are you pulling?
Guest:How big of the venues are you playing?
Guest:It depends on where we play.
Guest:We play.
Guest:If we play in...
Guest:like Alabama we played at 200 here we play at the almost crowded now I wish now I'm happy where we're playing we're playing on Wilshire at the old place so we'll play there and hopefully it'll sell out if not it'll be close so that's when's that you gotta come
Marc:I'd like to come, I think.
Marc:When is it?
Marc:This weekend?
Guest:It's like 10 days.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, you're welcome.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Do you want to play?
Marc:Not really?
Marc:I'm not very good at that.
Guest:No?
Guest:I've tried before.
Guest:It's just not... It's not good.
Guest:Diminished.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I'm a better talker.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I don't know that for sure.
Guest:You edit this right, I will be, but...
Marc:Yeah, no, you sound great, man.
Marc:So who are you, like, you know, to finish up, I mean, when you look back on what you've done and, you know, the sound you've created, which is uniquely yours, I mean, who do you think compelled you the most, you know, in your past to, you know, to, like, really do what you did?
Marc:Or who do you revere or miss?
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:I mean, you know, the musical hero, music as music, there's like the punk times.
Guest:I can't even say individuals, you know.
Guest:I'm not an individual person so much.
Guest:There's so many heroes, amazing people.
Guest:It's just like the whole record collection kind of melts into what you are, hopefully.
Guest:And that's probably a good idea to not be too derivative because, you know, everyone has the...
Guest:danger of being really derivative it's something you have creeps in you can't help it but you I just you know if you have enough colors just it comes out that yucky brown that's you yeah that's you I don't know so who are they like Lou I like Lou Reed the Velvets I mean they're kind of funny sense of humor mixed with really deep
Guest:you know, deep jams.
Guest:The bootlegs of Sister Ray.
Guest:There's like Sweet Sister Ray bootleg.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like eight different versions of that song.
Guest:It's all you really need.
Guest:What about Iggy?
Guest:I like the Stooges, of course.
Guest:The, I don't know.
Guest:They were not like my...
Guest:I like Credence more yeah I mean you end up when you look at these top ten lists that people do it ends up being like Stooges Velvet Underground David Bowie Mark Bolin yeah um
Guest:And that... I mean, one band I loved was X. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Wild Gift and the first album.
Guest:And The Special's first album.
Guest:I mean, this was when I was a kid and I was buying... Before I really... I kind of wanted to be cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just buying New Wave Punk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I tried to listen to Elvis Costello.
Guest:Didn't do it for me.
Guest:I listened to The Jam.
Guest:Didn't do it.
Guest:But then X, I just play that...
Guest:No one really told me why.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I just, like, played Los Angeles until it was completely ruined and also the first Specials album.
Guest:So... And that, I recommend that Unheard Music DVD if no one's seen that.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:It's a documentary about X from back in the day.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:A lot of cool footage.
Guest:I mean, it's total, like, outside your door, L.A.
Guest:style.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:They're from the sort of thrift shop culture that...
Guest:You can't really, it was a real L.A.
Guest:thing.
Guest:Doesn't happen anymore.
Guest:Yeah, there's some kind of, I mean, you'll see it and you'll be like, oh yeah, I remember those dresses and those candles and those muscle cars.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They were a real L.A.
Marc:band, real Americana stuff.
Guest:And deep lyrics, really weird lyrics.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Ray Manzarek jumps on.
Guest:He's wearing, like, dockers and a tucked-in white shirt, and he's got kind of a mullet, and he jumps on stage with them to sing Soul Kitchen, and somehow it's not embarrassing.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It was good talking to you, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Guest:Yeah, you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Strong.
Yeah.
Marc:all right that's it man that was steve malkmus i just talked to steve malkmus for like an hour fucking pavement man that's it that's our show man okay all right a lot of stuff happened here today and i do appreciate you people and uh i do need to go play some guitar
Marc:And I need you to go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:If you don't have the premium app, grab the premium app.
Marc:I mean, get the free app upgrade so you have the full catalog.
Marc:You'll get involved.
Marc:Seems like the comment board didn't go away.
Marc:It seems like they're still there.
Marc:Like, I don't have power over this.
Marc:I don't know what's happening, but the comments are still there.
Marc:So go do that.
Marc:Go do what you need to do.
Marc:God damn, man.
Marc:Life is just so hard sometimes.
Marc:In my heart.
Marc:Outside of my heart, things are okay.
Guest:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!