Episode 484 - Josh Radnor
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what the fuckadelics what the fuckaholics what the fuckleberry fins what the fuck minister fullers yes i am mark maron this is wtf thank you for listening to my show i appreciate it and i like talking to you i do today
Marc:Josh Radner is on the show.
Marc:Those of you who don't know Josh, he is the star and one of the stars of the hit television series, how I met your mother.
Marc:And the final episode of that series is on this evening.
Marc:Now it's interesting about, about Josh.
Marc:Cause I ran into Josh a week or so ago, whenever I was just in New York for the IFC upfronts, we were staying at the same hotel and I walked by him and I'm like, Hey, you're that guy, Josh.
Marc:He's like, Hey man, I think I know.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:And,
Marc:And it all came back together.
Marc:I had met Josh Radner at a dinner at about like about nine, between nine and 10 years ago.
Marc:I was still married to my second wife and it was an event of some kind.
Marc:He was with someone I knew and he had just gotten a gig.
Marc:of How I Met Your Mother.
Marc:He had just gotten that gig, and I think I was pleasant to him.
Marc:I remember connecting with him, and when I ran into him, I was sort of like, oh yeah, you're that guy, and I met you.
Marc:And then I saw him in Jill Soloway's movie, Afternoon Delight, which he was great in.
Marc:He's also made a couple of his own movies.
Marc:And tonight is the final night of the ninth season, I believe, of this series that was incredibly popular, that has millions of viewers.
Marc:I told him when I ran into him at the hotel, I said, you know, you got to come on the show.
Marc:It'd be interesting to talk to you about your experience.
Marc:And he said, yeah, sure.
Marc:And then like literally days later, we hooked it up and he's on today, the day of the last night of this thing that has been part of his life for nine years.
Marc:And it was an interesting conversation because I literally look and you're talking to a guy that's maybe seen eight episodes of Friends, maybe 12 episodes of Seinfeld.
Marc:I really have been out of the loop with weekly TV viewing of major series.
Marc:And I had to confess to Josh that I think that maybe I've seen three or four of the 208 episodes.
Marc:200 episodes of how i met your mother i mean i understood the conceit and i was a little nervous and i realized well there's no way i can get caught up in a week and sit and watch 200 episodes of how i met your mother but i can certainly talk to this gentleman as an actor as an artist as somebody who's been in the business as a kindred spirit of sorts as a jew perhaps and
Marc:And a lot of other things.
Marc:And we ended up having this amazing conversation was one of these conversations that I didn't really want to end because we were hitting it off and we, you know, it got to the point where we were just talking about movies and then we talked about spirituality, whatever.
Marc:What is a grounded professional dude?
Marc:Josh Radner is.
Marc:And I think that even those of you who are big fans of How I Met Your Mother, maybe just tuning in because of that, you might get to know Josh a little better.
Marc:And for those of you who are my fans and listen to this show regularly, you might not know anything about How I Met Your Mother.
Marc:I didn't either.
Marc:It turned out to be an amazing conversation.
Marc:And I was very appreciative that he came by.
Marc:Folks, I know that I've kept you in the loop.
Marc:about my trials and tribulations you know in a lot of ways in a lot of ways i feel very close to you and you know what's going on with me for the most part but i do have to report that my struggle and this is seemingly like this is starting to seem like an eternal struggle like almost a a spiritual struggle with one of the gods that runs our planet and
Marc:It's taking on a spiritual dimension.
Marc:It's confronting parts of myself that I'm not comfortable with.
Marc:It's making me confront the existential crisis of mortality and are we alone in the world?
Marc:It's making me confront my personal morality.
Marc:And I think you know what struggle I'm talking about.
Marc:That is my struggle with Time Warner Cable.
Marc:who is my internet provider.
Marc:This is a reality of modern life.
Marc:I have to deal with Time Warner Cable.
Marc:I have no choice.
Marc:If I want access to the world,
Marc:I need to deal with it.
Marc:It's my portal to the world.
Marc:And my portal to the world becomes compromised every night around five or six in the evening.
Marc:My portal to the world is very slow.
Marc:It makes me very anxious.
Marc:It makes me aggravated.
Marc:It causes me stress.
Marc:It's probably giving me cancer.
Marc:The fact that I can't access the world at a reasonable speed.
Marc:Or more succinctly, the fucking speed that I pay for.
Marc:It's becoming mythological.
Marc:Time Warner is now becoming mythic to me because I'm not fucking sure if they're real.
Marc:I know there's a lot of people involved.
Marc:I know I plug something in, but I'm not sure that they know what's going on.
Marc:I don't believe the lip service paid in print and on television to their concern for the speed and convenience of their services.
Marc:I'm not sure that there's anyone really regulating anything over there.
Marc:You know, from what I can glean, they got into the Internet business because they just absorbed another company.
Marc:There's all this infrastructure laying around that.
Marc:I think they hope it works.
Marc:But as I told you, I was taken last week to tier two, which I decided was on another planet.
Marc:I talked to a woman on another planet.
Marc:with a peculiar accent that I decided was alien in the truest sense of the word, not in any sort of nationalistic or racist sense of the word.
Marc:She lived on another planet.
Marc:That Time Warner subcontracted tier two of its customer service to alien beings who were there as a sort of safeguard, a kind of a wall of interference between whatever it is Time Warner really is and customers.
Marc:So tier two lady, the alien from another planet, she was going to keep a watch on my connection for 72 hours.
Marc:The female alien lady from another planet was throwing a switch that would keep a watch on my connection.
Marc:So two days later, shit was still going down every night, six o'clock, garbage, no connection.
Marc:I would do compulsive speed tests.
Marc:I would reboot my router two or three times, occasionally get it for a little while.
Marc:So then I decided, like, I better call and see if I can get through to the other planet, to the lady on another planet to to see what's going on.
Marc:How is that monitoring going of my connection?
Marc:So I call up and now my attitude towards tier one or the first wall of obstruction of customer service at Time Warner, my attitude is like, okay, you're angry.
Marc:They anticipate that.
Marc:Maybe you should choose a different tone, not because you expect them to help.
Marc:I'm calling them knowing they can't help me, that the first wall of defense of Time Warner's incompetence cannot help me anymore.
Marc:I know that we're past that.
Marc:And I know that if I tell them my phone number, push it into my phone, they will see my history of three technicians, compulsive calls for over two weeks, 20 or 30 calls that I've done everything they've asked me to do.
Marc:I've jumped through all the hoops.
Marc:I've gotten a new modem that all that stuff is right there in front of them.
Marc:So I call them up with a new tone.
Marc:And my tone is this.
Marc:They go, hi, Time Warner.
Marc:Can I help you?
Marc:I'm like, yes.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:Look, I've been calling a lot and I just wanted you to know that your company is horrible.
Marc:That Time Warner is a horrible company.
Marc:They're terrible and they're liars.
Marc:I just I just want you to know that.
Marc:And I'm comfortable with that.
Marc:You know, I've accepted that.
Marc:And I want you to know that I'm saying this to a person.
Marc:who I know's job is to take a certain amount of shit, but I don't want to be abusive.
Marc:So I just want to know.
Marc:It's like, look, it's just bad.
Marc:Time Warner is awful.
Marc:And I'd really like to make another choice, but I don't think you can help me.
Marc:But he says, I'm sorry that you're having trouble.
Marc:What can I help you with?
Marc:I'm like, you actually can't help me.
Marc:There's nothing, nothing you can do for me.
Marc:It's not within your power to do anything for me.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Do you see my you see my information there?
Marc:You see what's going on?
Marc:There's nothing you can suggest.
Marc:There's nothing that you can do for me.
Marc:So let's just skip the fucking game.
Marc:Can you get me to tier two?
Marc:I'd like to talk to the woman who lives on another planet.
Marc:So he goes, well, I'll give you to a, you know, advanced technical support for Internet.
Marc:I'm like, sure, sure.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:Let's go that route.
Marc:Let's go advanced.
Marc:So now I get to advance and this woman's like, yeah, can I help you?
Marc:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:But I just feel like I should be calling you guys because things aren't right and I shouldn't be paying for it.
Marc:And I don't really have much options with other servers.
Marc:So I don't think there's anything you can do for me.
Marc:I just wanted to tell you that you work for a horrible company.
Marc:Time Warner's horrible.
Marc:And I know that you're on another planet probably.
Marc:So this is probably not even your concern.
Marc:I don't think that human problems are your issue.
Marc:But I do want you to know that the reason that they've hired you
Marc:on whatever planet you live on, is because you have no conscience, you have no empathy, and you think that human problems are trivial.
Marc:That being said, I just wanted to report to you that I'm still having problems after the hour of five or six at night, and it's the exact same problems, and I just wanted to tell you that.
Marc:And she goes, well, are you using, like, I've got your connection right now.
Marc:Are you using a Wi-Fi router?
Marc:Oh, okay, you're going to work the, it's my fault, the router angle.
Marc:Yes, I do, but that isn't a problem because, you know, I had a watch put on my connection because a woman...
Marc:I probably who's there with you in whatever whatever structure you're in that allows you to breathe properly.
Marc:If you do breathe oxygen told me that they were going to watch my my connection.
Marc:Do you see that on there?
Marc:She goes, no, I don't see any red flags or any.
Marc:But you don't see that they're watching it.
Marc:No, I don't see that.
Marc:So the people on your planet are pathological liars, which would make sense with your lack of empathy and concern for the human animal.
Marc:But my fear is, folks, my fear is that not unlike a spiritual church is that I'm learning something about myself.
Marc:You know, I don't want to accept this.
Marc:I believe that we should fight bad companies.
Marc:I believe that apathy is not the way to handle this, that this is just the way it is.
Marc:But sadly, sadly, I think that most people wear out before I wear out.
Marc:And I think that most people don't call.
Marc:So they're just sort of hedging their bets.
Marc:And the reason they hire customer service on any planet is to sort of be a wall, a wall of sort of base, simple communication that the people hired in customer service, especially Time Warner, are really just there to absorb the hostility
Marc:Anger, disappointment and frustration of their customers.
Marc:And what they're hoping is that people will just wear out and just tire out and accept the garbage that they provide for you as service just because that's the way it is.
Marc:That's what they're hoping for.
Marc:But my persistence has led me to the sad realization that that really Time Warner slogan should be we're here.
Marc:We're all you've got and we can't help you because I think at the end of the day, not unlike spiritual belief is that it's really on you.
Marc:Where are you going to hang your hope?
Marc:Who are you going to be as a person in the world?
Marc:How are you going to treat other people?
Marc:That the bottom line is, is that not unlike a scientific search out into space, eventually hit a wall of, we don't know.
Marc:We don't know.
Marc:You know, even with God, you know, it's sort of like, what God, what?
Marc:Tell me what to do.
Marc:There's no answer.
Marc:You know, for whatever reason you think there's no answer, but there's no answer.
Marc:The answer is going to come from your heart.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Because it's not knowable.
Marc:It's not knowable.
Marc:god is not necessarily noble it's a it's a decision that comes from within your heart how you're going to build that relationship so now now that i know this i know that when you get all the way through the time warner customer service labyrinth
Marc:At the core of it, at the end of your search, at the end of your demand for help, they don't know.
Marc:They don't know why it's not working.
Marc:They just have a huge, multi-tiered, with several planets involved and satellites, a huge system that you can get lost in.
Marc:And there's no one at the end that says...
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:They don't know.
Marc:And you know, how you're going to behave and how you're going to act in the face of that realization.
Guest:That's for you to know.
Marc:I think that dinner we were at, you had just gotten the roll.
Guest:Okay, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Guest:I remembered meeting you, but yes, it was at a dinner.
Guest:And I think that's right.
Marc:I think it was... I remember being there, and I think it was... I don't know if it was a Seder, or it was Jew-oriented.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But usually, you know, with Soloway, it was a Jew-oriented thing.
Marc:I don't remember what the event was, but I was there with my wife.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were there with Jesse Klein.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you had just gotten the part on How I Met Your Mother.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was like, so you're that guy.
Marc:You weren't even like that.
Marc:It's funny, because you were sort of like, yeah, it's a thing.
Guest:Well, it was like, who knows?
Guest:I was like my fourth pilot.
Guest:I mean, none of it had worked.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So how long had you been out here when you got that?
Marc:What year was that?
Marc:That must be like 2000.
Guest:That was 2005.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:39.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And when did you come out here?
Guest:I started coming out here like 2001, but I would spend like pilot season out here.
Guest:My girlfriend at the time was working out here, so I would come out and be with her.
Marc:Where were you living?
Guest:New York.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then, okay, so let's track it all the way back, because I have this theory about...
Marc:You know, my friend Sam Cedar, do you know Sam Cedar?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He did some television.
Marc:He's a political guy now, like I did a show with him on Air America, that, you know, there's a role in Hollywood on television that is played by the attractive Jewish man.
Yeah.
Guest:That's the thing?
Marc:That's the slot I was in?
Marc:Yeah, I think that the attractive, funny, smart Jewish man is around.
Marc:I don't know when it started, but I think it predates Schwimmer.
Marc:I think it predates, but I always think there's a place.
Marc:Look at movies, even like Elliot Gould, James Caan.
Marc:There has to be a slightly neurotic, attractive Jewish man available.
Guest:And then they just surround him with wackiness and watch him react.
Marc:Yeah, well, or other people that fit.
Marc:I just have this theory of archetypes that repeat themselves.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm sure there's something to that, yeah.
Marc:But you didn't grow up in New York.
Marc:No, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio.
Marc:What kind of childhood was that?
Marc:You're Jewish.
Guest:I am.
Guest:Can we be Jew-y?
Guest:Don't tell anyone.
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't want it to hurt my chances in show business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, Josh Radnor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't tell anybody.
Guest:That's a Welsh name.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Radnorshire.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:It's a thing, yeah.
Guest:So your dad said- No, but I come from, like, shtetl Jews.
Guest:Like, full on.
Marc:How is that, then, how'd the Welsh name happen?
Guest:It just is, like, the curveball.
Guest:Like, the little genetic curveball from my dad's dad's dad's- Was he Jewish?
Guest:He- That probably wasn't.
Guest:There's, like, a strain of non-Jew-
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You got that in you, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The non-Jew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Welsh non-Jew.
Marc:So you grew up in how many sisters and brothers?
Marc:I have an older sister and a younger sister.
Guest:I'm the middle boy.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's probably why you're a nice guy.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:I mean, you couldn't... There was no room in my family for, like, you know, being a terrible person.
Guest:I mean, the combination of, like, Jewish parents and Ohio was kind of like, you know, just calm down.
Guest:Just watch it.
Marc:No room to be a terrible person.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You wanted that room, but you just couldn't... I never... I don't know.
Guest:Like, I tried it on... Whenever I've tried on being, like... A dick?
Guest:A dick...
Marc:it always felt like that doesn't feel good well that's a good thing right and then other people are like why are you being a dick yeah i mean it's so obvious but it's just kind of like that's that wasn't my thing so i was like oh my god i wish i had that kind of choice i maybe i do like i did like a dick that was my thing for a lot of years being a dick but it didn't feel like a choice oh really no if you're not naturally a dick where'd you grow up albuquerque okay albuquerque new mexico
Guest:Also not the hot pocket of Jewry.
Marc:No, but I don't know what Columbus is like, but there seemed to be a crew that went out there.
Marc:There was a few Wild West Jews.
Guest:Some settlers.
Marc:Right, but then there was a wave at some point of just the second generation running away from their parents in New York and New Jersey.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:It's interesting, East Coast Jew is very different than Midwestern Jew, which I imagine Southwest Jew is a whole other thing.
Marc:Well, a lot of them began as East Coast Jews, but then there's San Francisco Jews.
Marc:I can't even identify them.
Marc:There's a type of Jew in San Francisco that I think came around during the gold rush, and Levi Strauss was a Jew, and they defined the economics of that city at some time, but they're not... We all get used to the East Coast Jew.
Marc:I think we're all acting in relation to some version of the East Coast Jew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my idea of like Midwestern Jew is like when Jewy things get talked about at restaurants, it goes into a whisper.
Guest:Like that's where it's not as like, wait, we're going to synagogue.
Guest:You know, it's just, there's a hush.
Guest:Is that how you grew up?
Guest:I kind of, I mean, not, there wasn't like shame about it.
Guest:It was just, you weren't ostentatious about it.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:Cause they already knew why push it.
Marc:they're like they know we're jewish let's not let's not rub their ring the gong yeah so you're kind of quiet about it's like i'm going to hebrew school my bar mitzvah is coming up well no i couldn't not be i mean i went to a hebrew day school like i went to really yeah like there was a like a like you learned hebrew you had to wear a yarmulke yeah yeah yeah the whole bit but you were you orthodox
Guest:No, we weren't, but it was kind of, you know, it's kind of like... Private school.
Guest:Sending your kid to Catholic school when you're not super Catholic.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Did you learn Hebrew?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And you did all that?
Marc:Did it all, yeah.
Marc:And your parents were into that?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, they were more like active in the synagogue kind of Jews, but they weren't, we didn't keep kosher.
Marc:What'd your dad do?
Guest:He's a trial lawyer.
Guest:He retired a couple years ago.
Marc:A trial lawyer?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:What kind of lawyer?
Guest:He was of counsel at a couple hospitals.
Guest:He worked for, I mean, defended doctors mostly.
Marc:Doctors from predatory lawsuits.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:From the guys like, you didn't take an x-ray and that's why I can't walk.
Guest:Or his version was like, don't get out of bed, Mr. Johnson.
Guest:Mr. Johnson gets out of bed, breaks his hip, soothes the hospital.
Marc:Oh, so he actually represented a hospital.
Guest:He did.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He did a little bit of plaintiff's work, but mostly defense.
Marc:My dad was a doctor, so I understand the fear.
Marc:Yeah, he was on your side.
Marc:He was on the good team?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Doctors have a tough man because of that.
Marc:People just come after them.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's also, I mean, I think this was in a Malcolm Gladwell book, but it's basically like- Wasn't everything?
Guest:If you have a good bedside manner, you get sued like 80% less.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:They're actually suing bad personalities.
Marc:in some ways like someone's got to pay yeah like they're like you didn't make me feel safe or good and something bad happened but if you're if you're kind and caring and then something bad happens they're like oh yeah i guess i don't know yeah no that makes sense like he did the best he could because sadly medicine is not an exact science correct and i don't know why they haven't figured that out yet like part of me thinks that they they really don't have a lot invested in letting us all live forever
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think, I mean, you're so vulnerable if you're, you know, you, I think it's just everyone's fear.
Guest:Everyone goes crazy when they're sick.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because then it becomes real.
Marc:Like this doesn't go on forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a horrible realization.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you think about it?
Guest:Death?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Um, you know, now you are, I'm sorry.
Guest:God damn.
Guest:I've never been super like death obsessed.
Guest:And I actually find certain, like I find, uh, like I used to read all this Philip Roth and
Guest:I love Philip Roth.
Guest:And then, oh, you got it?
Marc:I got a bunch of Philip Roth.
Marc:I was just talking to Lena Dunham about it.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was obsessed with him in college.
Guest:I just read, like, a book a week.
Guest:I got on this real tear with him.
Guest:And once he got into his dying phase, where it was all about, like, death and swollen prostates and stuff, I couldn't do it anymore.
Marc:It's hard when you start to feel the organs that are being talked about.
Guest:Yeah, it's just like, it felt so asphyxiating somehow.
Marc:You know, we spend our life trying to accommodate that knowledge
Guest:Of our demise?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Either working against it, denying it, or I don't know people who healthily embrace it.
Marc:I mean, if I really think about it, it's terrifying.
Guest:I think so, but I think there are people who have a really big vision of it.
Marc:Or just acceptance of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like there's people that don't feel like they have to do a lot of shit.
Guest:Well, I also feel certain Eastern concepts around reincarnation is actually quite helpful.
Guest:And I don't think it's delusional to believe that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I think, because I actually kind of do believe that.
Marc:In reincarnation?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just feel some sort of continuum.
Guest:But to get back to the thing, it's not my demise, I fear.
Guest:It's more like I'm suffering phobic.
Guest:Like, I don't want the suffering and the pain.
Marc:Well, you don't have to as much as people used to.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I mean, that's one thing they're pretty good at.
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:They got a handle on making the pain meds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, wait, I like this idea, though.
Marc:So we got back to that.
Marc:You're worried about suffering.
Marc:But wait, you're not worried about the moment where it's sort of like boom, boom.
Marc:Okay, here I am.
Marc:Now I'm what?
Marc:The transition.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:From life into whatever you think's gonna happen.
Guest:yeah but i i have this i just in my new screen i just wrote a new screenplay and i have this what's it about it's it's set in poland it's a kind of love triangle set in poland really my grandmother i was on the film festival of a jury of a film festival a couple years ago in krakow have you been to krakow no i want to go to poland my people are from yeah so i went to see the grand the town where my grandmother was born this little town called pinch off where nothing is there i mean it's a pub it's a pub and a
Marc:So you do the work.
Marc:I mean, in the way that, like, you know, I kind of want to do that.
Marc:Go to Russia and track down where the problem started.
Guest:I mean, did I do the work?
Guest:I knew this town existed.
Guest:I went there.
Guest:The visitor center was closed.
Guest:I walked around the square a couple of times.
Marc:But you were there for something else.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:Yeah, I was on the jury of a film festival for about 10 days.
Marc:A Krakow film festival?
Guest:It was called Off Center.
Guest:It was, yeah, Off Camera.
Marc:Then they came to you?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Okay, there we go.
Marc:Because you've done two films.
Marc:You did, what, Liberal Arts?
Guest:Liberal Arts and Happy Thank You More, Please is my first one.
Marc:Yeah, but when you did Happy Thank You More, was that while you were doing How I Met Your Mother before?
Marc:Both of them I did before.
Marc:Still?
Marc:Oh, so you kind of fit it in.
Guest:Like fourth season, I did Liberal Arts sixth season, kind of in between, in the summers between.
Marc:So this is the dream?
Guest:To be doing it all?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Doing it all.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:All right, so, okay, so I've never been to Poland.
Guest:Tell me about Poland.
Guest:Poland, you know, it was kind of like gray...
Guest:I was shocked how many How I Met Your Mother fans were there.
Guest:That was weird.
Marc:It's an international phenomenon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I found it to be... It was like... I've never been to Prague, but it reminded me of pictures I've seen of Prague.
Guest:And it kind of felt like an under-filmed city.
Guest:I was like, movies should shoot here.
Guest:And then I noticed that they were actually kind of dangling.
Guest:For the winners, they would say, if you shoot in Krakow, you get another $150,000 towards your film.
Guest:So I thought, well, they're trying to make films there.
Guest:And I had a story that I thought maybe could be set there.
Guest:So, but I have this character who says, there's this old theater director who's, you know, well past his prime.
Guest:And he says, you know, something like, maybe we have this wrong, like maybe birth is this terrible thing that we should mourn.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, a lifetime of hardship ahead of you.
Guest:And then death is this kind of release, like this glorious release.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right, you've paid your dues.
Marc:Now you get to relax.
Guest:Or that there might be, like that there's nothing to fear.
Guest:Like maybe we just have it wrong and our egos are such that we are so cling to the material and the thing we know and can see and measure.
Guest:And then I just think there's a lot more going on.
Marc:Well, I think, well, I can sometimes in my worst moments, in my more cynical moments, believe that it doesn't seem obviously fair, but it just seems like kind of a jip to finally get a handle on something, you know, in the last quarter.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like, I understand it and I can't pee.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:I'm relaxed.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now I can't go to the bathroom.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:Now, how do you frame what your life is?
Marc:What do you do spiritually?
Marc:Did you do the Jewish thing?
Marc:Were you ever heavy into the Jewish thing?
Marc:Did you do the Israel thing?
Guest:I mean, it was kind of what I came from.
Guest:But as an adult kind of?
Marc:Well, as a middle-class Jew who was brought up in that, you know, I know you culturally identify, but did the religion serve you spiritually?
Guest:No, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think not.
Guest:Although, you know, I went to Israel for nine weeks when I was in between my first and second year at NYU and I just kicked around.
Guest:And I ended up, you know, you go to Israel, you have nothing to do.
Guest:The next thing you know, you're like with a bunch of Orthodox people because they like really want you to hang out with them.
Guest:The Chabad people?
Guest:So, yeah, they just, they're like, come to my house for Shabbos.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I ended up learning a lot and I was actually quite moved by some of the, that kind of, the Judaism that I saw there felt a little more alive to me.
Guest:And I came back and I actually went into a kind of crisis about whether I wanted to be an actor or not because it felt a little narcissistic.
Guest:this was after college this was in my second year of grad school oh really so to find yourself in the middle of like this intense training program be questioning whether you want to be an actor or not was not it was not my favorite stretch of time right but um then i got out of school i i i i found my way back and i got out and i realized how long was that period i mean what it was a couple months but i mean what what were the options like well i should be doing service yeah or yeah like do i do non-profit something do i
Guest:Give back.
Guest:Give back entirely.
Guest:That's what I do.
Guest:But then when I got out of school, it was more about I found my way back to a different way of relating to both self and the world because I thought if I don't do something, I'm going to go crazy, which was the negative voices in my head were so strong that I knew they would take me out.
Guest:What were they saying?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like, you can't do this, or you don't look right, or she thinks you're adorable.
Marc:So insecurity.
Guest:Just insecurity.
Guest:Garden variety.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Junior high stuff carried onward.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it's blown up.
Guest:It's happening now with me.
Guest:I'm not thinking any of those things you think I'm thinking.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:And then I started meditating, and once I started meditating, I just got a different relationship to my thoughts, kind of.
Marc:What kind of meditation?
Guest:I started doing like TM, like a mantra meditation.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So you'd meditate every day?
Marc:I do.
Marc:And in the morning?
Guest:Yeah, in the morning.
Guest:And I try to get a second one in.
Marc:For how long?
Guest:20 minutes about.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:20 minutes to a half hour.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So walk me through it.
Marc:You sit comfortably.
Guest:You sit comfortably.
Marc:And you start breathing.
Marc:You start breathing.
Marc:And a thought comes.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:Well, about 30 seconds, you pick up the mantra, right?
Marc:And then- Oh, you can't share it.
Guest:I can't share it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it could be anything.
Marc:I'll just whisper it into the mic.
Marc:I'm fucking doing this.
Guest:That's a bad mantra.
Marc:It is?
Guest:Yeah, don't do that one.
Marc:What's a mantra?
Guest:I mean, it's an autopoetic sound, so it doesn't even mean anything.
Guest:It just triggers your mind to calm down.
Marc:And you go over and over again.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you're supposed to effortlessly think it, which is actually a very weird thing.
Guest:Like, how do you effortlessly think?
Guest:Don't you need a tiny bit of effort to even think something?
Marc:Like, how do you... Well, you can kill anything with your brain.
Guest:Well, yeah, but how do you... But essentially, you know, thoughts come and they're not bad.
Guest:They're just, it's unstressing.
Guest:You know, it's just your mind throwing off thoughts, like, and they're just, you just let them go.
Guest:And when you realize you're off your mantra, you come back to it.
Guest:It's really simple.
Guest:It's nice.
Guest:It's easy.
Marc:And how do you feel when you're done?
Guest:Um, sometimes you feel great and you feel like you really went up places.
Guest:Other times you were just overrun with thoughts and you don't feel particularly great.
Guest:It didn't work.
Guest:Not that it didn't work.
Guest:You know, it's just, you just had a heavy dose of unstressing.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Like just.
Marc:So, and how has this like changed your, your life really?
Guest:I mean, I just made it like a non-negotiable part of my life.
Marc:But in the day to day, what tool does it give you?
Guest:i think um so i think it gives you a different relationship to your thoughts so if you're in a process where you're quiet during the day and we're not in a time where we're encouraged to be quiet on any level yeah i mean we're stimulant bombarded with stimulus you feel like you have to we're just being dragged by uh yeah and the promise of technology was a false one which is like you'll have nothing but free time no no one has the opposite now we're we're completely bound by tethered to it exactly
Guest:So I think it gives you a time to just be quiet and and be detached from that stuff.
Guest:And also when a thought comes by rather than it being good or bad or you, you know, it's just like, oh, look at that.
Marc:So the God thing is not important.
Guest:Uh, it is important.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I, I, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't talk to a lot of people about God because it's so provocative and it's so, I had, um, I had breakfast with Tim Minchin yesterday who you should meet.
Guest:Do you know that guy?
Marc:I've met him before.
Marc:It's not pleasant, but maybe I'll meet him again.
Guest:You should, you should talk to him maybe, but he's a kind of hardcore materialist, rational.
Marc:He's a musical actor, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's, he's very smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was, you know, we got into it and it was like, I don't, I'd like to be friends with this guy, but not have this conversation.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because it is like, you seem like a smart person.
Marc:How can you hang your hopes on bullshit?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I also, you know, what I said to him was, look, I,
Guest:I was raised by a rational materialist father and a rational materialist, my whole education.
Guest:Like I understand the scientific method.
Guest:I understand science.
Guest:I understand your arguments.
Guest:But I also have tasted and danced in this other realm, which feels quite wonderful to me.
Guest:And that if I'm only with that, I'm playing with half a deck.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, you have only danced in this realm and deny the existence of this other thing.
Marc:Fight the other one.
Guest:And you fight it with everything you can.
Guest:And so I at least know what I'm on some level rejecting, but not even entirely rejecting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of, I think the word God is so, it's been so sullied.
Guest:I mean, what bad press.
Marc:For me, like I don't, you know, my belief with others is that
Marc:If you have a solid sense of faith that's based in God consciousness, and it enables you to have hope and be a moral person and process things and diminish some of the existential terror that is so readily available, good for you.
Marc:God bless.
Guest:I talked to my friend about it last night, and he said, people who...
Guest:who are very kind of anti-God and even the concept, it's almost like they haven't sat with death on some level because when people are dying, they call out to God.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:They want it to mean something.
Guest:Yeah, but there seems to be some primal programming within us that has some dim memory of something larger than our... I recommend reading The Denial of Death to everybody that comes on this show.
Marc:I don't know that book.
Marc:Well, it's a very important book.
Marc:It changed my life.
Marc:And I've talked about it many times here.
Marc:Ernest Becker, the denial of death, which is fundamentally about, you know, the almost primal need for for human consciousness to feel connected to something larger in order to define itself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And find comfort in the face of existential terror of mortality.
Guest:But I feel that in some ways we have to choose our stories.
Guest:Like for instance, I could choose the story that I was like horrible and never going to work and everyone hated me.
Guest:Or I could choose a different story, right?
Guest:And I feel like I could also choose a story where I'm just like a bag of neurons and molecules that's an evolutionary accident.
Guest:You could be both.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I mean, I think like, look, this body's going away.
Marc:Look, you got to believe in poetry.
Marc:You got to believe in magic.
Marc:And the weird thing is, is that not magic magic.
Marc:But you see, the thing is, is like, you know, not everything is rational and not everything can be explained.
Marc:I mean, you can explain it by probability, by, you know, like, you know, coincidences can be deconstructed mathematically.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the truth is, if you don't allow some room for something poetic, for something magic, for something surprising without the need to explain it.
Marc:Or explain it away.
Marc:Explain it away.
Marc:You do a great disservice to your heart.
Marc:I 100% agree with that.
Marc:And I believe that.
Marc:It's like I'm wary to say I believe in God because I have not identified it.
Marc:But I am completely willing to have faith and think the best of people despite what people think of me.
Marc:And I'm completely willing to look around me and go like,
Marc:this is really fucking amazing and you can't explain it.
Marc:And if I really think about it, I get overwhelmed.
Marc:You know, you stand in front of a mountain and yeah, sure.
Marc:I know there's geological realities, there's weather realities, there's agricultural realities, there's, you know, there's a lot of things happening, but the majesty of it, I choose to appreciate and not explain so I can feel it in my heart.
Marc:Like I would, I would argue that, that, you know, rationalists, it's, there's a fine line between that and,
Marc:And just, you know, control freakness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I kind of feel why talk to why argue with those people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why argue?
Marc:And also like it's like I don't identify as an atheist, but I have a hard time with with mythologies.
Marc:Like I have a hard time with with naming God.
Marc:I have a hard time with, you know, like saying I believe in God.
Marc:But I certainly have faith in something and I certainly don't seek to explain it away.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:right i mean but that to me is like it's kind of standing in the space of mystery and possibility well people get mad at that too come on you gotta decide one team or the other i don't have to do anything for anybody i know you know it's like i don't want to go through the exercise yeah of having you go yet see i won you can't answer yeah and then also like your victory means what
Marc:like for you like okay great i now believe i'm a bag of bones yeah i do a bit about that about uh you know i did it on my special just about how it's really about winning there's no solution right right right right you know you know if you're going to talk someone out of their god you better put something else in its place other than this rudimentary idea that everything being explained by math equations right right you know what i mean do you know david eagleman the the neuroscientist he he
Guest:he says that science knows like five to 10 percent of what there is to know like literally there's like 90 to 95 percent they have no idea and and matter itself there's only four percent of the universe's material yeah so there's 96 that's dark matter we don't know what it is it's not nothing we just don't know what it is yeah so he rather than he says science can't declare atheism it can't declare belief and he calls himself a possibillion yeah which is really cool he said that's what you know and all these people are like yeah i believe in possibillionism
Marc:Yeah, so where does the reincarnation thing play in that you mentioned?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Just like some weird feeling.
Marc:You know what's weird, though?
Marc:Here's what I really believe, though.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who knows if that's going to be true or it's not going to be true?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:First of all.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if you want to entertain that and it makes you feel hope or good or curious or it's provocative to you,
Marc:It's like, that's your right.
Marc:And, you know, why not?
Marc:There's no, like, there's no, you can keep it to yourself.
Marc:You could share it with other people.
Marc:You're probably better if you keep it to yourself.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is hanging your hope on something, you know, is a personal activity.
Guest:You know, you have to get to a certain point in your life where you have the time and space and resources to even chew on these questions.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like, if you don't have a place to live and you don't know where your food's coming from, like, you're not going to...
Marc:Unless you actually don't have those things because you've chewed on these questions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're that guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just meditating.
Marc:Working it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, let's go back.
Marc:Before we talk about the show you've been doing for half your life that I quite honestly know not enough about.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:It's not cool.
Marc:I should do research, but how am I going to research?
Marc:I'm going to sit down and watch nine seasons?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't do that.
Marc:But the last show's on tonight.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is there something you can spoil for everybody?
Guest:Well, it's a two-parter.
Guest:It is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's an hour long.
Marc:Oh, but it's all going to happen tonight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are people going to get closure?
Guest:I think, yeah.
Guest:I think that's something that they'll get.
Marc:Yeah, it's all going to pay off.
Guest:I mean, look, there's a lot of kind of dangling threads of the show, and they almost hit all of them.
Guest:They get everything.
Marc:Well, what was the plan of the show initially?
Marc:Like, you couldn't have imagined.
Marc:I mean, I guess this is the best of all worlds.
Marc:It's even better than the best.
Marc:I mean, how many did you do?
Marc:200?
Marc:208.
Marc:So it's going to be in syndication for the rest of your life.
Marc:You're going to be making money while you're sleeping for the next 20 years.
Marc:And did you have any real, I guess that's the hope when you get a role on a sitcom, but this has been a defining thing.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:It's interesting, and I got to give you credit.
Marc:Is that, you know, I saw a Soloway's movie, you know, Afternoon Delight, which I liked a lot, and I had her and Katherine Hahn in here, and you did a great job in that.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And the thing that you did a great job at, which is just of no power of your own, just by virtue of the fact that you're a good actor, is that, and also by the fact that I'm not obsessively watching the other show, is that I didn't associate you with anything.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Marc:It is good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's a tricky thing, man.
Guest:Yeah, I mean...
Guest:There's different phases of an actor's life.
Guest:I mean, the first phase is no one knows who I am and no one wants to hire me.
Guest:And then if you're lucky, you get a part that becomes like, that's what people know you for.
Guest:And then you have another problem, which is trying to get out from under that.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Well, that's a TV actor specifically.
Marc:TV for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And a hit TV show specifically.
Marc:Like there's, there's certain people that, that have made the jump.
Marc:I don't want to lose my train of thought.
Marc:So when you were in high school, was this where you were going?
Guest:No, I was just like a stage obsessed.
Guest:I was theater obsessed.
Marc:You know, because I'm noticing on the levels here, you were one of the rare people that project perfectly because you're not even on top of that mic and the levels are great.
Marc:And I commend you for that and your ability to detach from your TV part.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:So I'm just blowing smoke up your ass left and right to make up for the fact that I've watched three episodes of your show.
Guest:On airplanes when you had no choice.
Yeah.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:But am I the target audience?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'll tell you, there is no such thing as a target audience at this point.
Guest:I have met people.
Guest:I have, you know, people, it cuts across everything now.
Guest:It's not, you think like, oh, it's like urban 20 somethings love the show.
Guest:College kids love the show.
Guest:It's not.
Guest:It's a lot of people.
Marc:Well, because the ensemble's so fucking good.
Marc:I mean, when it comes right down to the success of sitcoms, I mean, whatever the context is, it's how you... It's just, do you want to spend time with these people?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Ultimately.
Marc:And they're great people.
Marc:I mean, Jason's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, everybody's great.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, we really hit the... I mean, a lot of shows where you have that kind of ensemble, when they don't work, it looks like, oh, they got cast.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, it literally looks like just a bunch of actors that got the parts.
Marc:That's why things don't make it past that pilot.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And for whatever reason, we felt like a bunch of people would sit around and drink beer all day together.
Guest:And did that last?
Guest:We never lost the feeling of... That we really felt like we were friends sitting around.
Guest:Like, we...
Guest:I always describe it more like family than friends in that we didn't pick each other.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And we saw each other on our best days and our worst days and all that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And we didn't, after the first season, we weren't really hanging out and having dinner.
Guest:That's what everyone wants to believe.
Guest:We had lives.
Guest:Like we had, you know, everyone had, people had kids and projects.
Guest:But when we were there, it was always super easy and felt organic in a really cool way.
Marc:That is an interesting thing about that, though.
Marc:Even when I've done radio or something, where you spend four hours a day with this guy who's your guy, you're talking on the air and you're working.
Marc:Sometimes when you get done with that, you're like, what, are you going to hang out more?
Guest:You don't want to bring the office home with you.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And people assume, like, you guys all must be... No, I can't.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I mean, I'm sure you have everyone's phone number.
Marc:I got him.
Marc:Yeah, I can text him right now.
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:I'll text him right now.
Marc:He's like, Jason, what's up, man?
Marc:But, okay, so the plan was stage...
Guest:yeah yeah but it was also like when i fell hard for acting i got really scared because no one from my family was an actor no one from my community was an actor she's a she was an elementary school teacher and then she was mom and she was a guidance counselor i'll tell you man so many people who are creative people have parents who are teachers it's very interesting yeah yeah and i think that i think i don't know what that says but they must have been you know reluctantly supportive they were cautiously support my dad only realized uh better word cautiously yeah
Guest:He revealed to me years later how terrified he was, but he held it, you know, he hid it, which was really good for me.
Marc:Because he wanted you to be happy and be able to pursue it.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was also very judicious and kind of smart about how I revealed information and when.
Guest:So I would... What does that mean?
Guest:So, like, they didn't want me to go... You've got it all figured out.
Guest:You've got mortality figured out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I have not got it all figured out, please.
Guest:They did not want me to go get like a BFA, like go to Juilliard or something.
Marc:They wanted me to get a liberal arts degree.
Guest:That was the requirement.
Guest:So they also wanted me to not major in drama, but I ended up just spending most of the time in the theater department.
Guest:I mean, I took all kinds of classes, but I ended up declaring a drama major, which they were okay with because it was kind of more academic.
Guest:But then every summer I would go to do theater on the East Coast.
Guest:Every summer I was actually doing it.
Marc:Like stock?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like non-equity companies.
Marc:So you were castable pretty early on.
Marc:You got a handle on it.
Guest:I don't know that I was castable as much as I just was really enthusiastic and found the places I wanted to go.
Marc:And what plays did you do in high school?
Marc:I always like trying to picture the plays that people do.
Guest:The first play I did was Oklahoma.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The second play I did was Cabaret.
Guest:I played the MC in Cabaret, which was kind of a watershed moment for me.
Guest:That's where people started going...
Guest:you could maybe do this and you were singing uh-huh yeah yeah so you can sing yeah when when asked i don't do it like i don't just do it all the time it's more like we need to just sing right now yeah and then i'll kind of but the high school experience for a lot of people who act as musicals so that's what you do
Guest:It's also the most fun thing.
Guest:I mean, I, my community is pretty homogenous, you know, and, uh, you know, socioeconomic and everything.
Guest:And I started working at this children's theater that every summer would do, um, uh, musicals with like 16 to 21 year olds, but it was from all over central Ohio.
Guest:It was kind of like the best people would go for the summer.
Guest:So I did like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor, Dreamcoat, Jesus Christ, Superstar into the woods.
Guest:Were you Jesus?
Guest:I was Pontius Pilate.
Guest:I had to kill Jesus.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Jew.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Let the Jew kill Jesus.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Don't think I didn't notice.
Marc:Who directed that show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I just found, like, I felt at home there.
Guest:I felt at home among the difference, like the combustible weirdness of everyone being there.
Guest:But we just were drunk on the theater together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a pretty amazing thing, because even last night, and I notice this a lot now that I'm 50 or whatever, but I was waiting to go on stage at the Redondo Performance Arts Center just for Adam Carolla's podcast.
Marc:It was like half a house, but it's a big theater.
Marc:Someone built it sometime, and then you had the big flats.
Marc:And I'm just behind the curtain, wandering around, waiting to go on.
Marc:And you have that moment where you're like, this is my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm in show business.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It has not ever dimmed for me, that feeling.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:You know when you go see a friend in a Broadway play, and you kind of get to peek out on the stage in the empty house?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It still feels really...
Guest:Holy to me.
Guest:It really, especially an empty theater.
Guest:There's something in liberal arts.
Guest:There's a scene in an empty theater that I used to perform in because we shot it at Kenyon.
Guest:And to me, I don't know.
Guest:There was something so magical about being able to go in there.
Marc:Well, the weird thing is, is that once you, you know, you have some chops and, and, you know, you've been in the life for a while.
Marc:You don't always think of it that way because you're sort of like, I'm going out.
Marc:And I'm going to do my thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But then like when you really step back from it and realize what you've committed your life to and you can't quite identify, you know, the difference, you know, what happens between behind stage and on stage and the magic that you enter the space.
Marc:For me, I guess I'm just projecting, but like sometimes I'm just fascinated when I'm on stage with somebody else and I'm watching them talk and there's an audience of hundreds there and there's just a person talking, but there it's magic.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I also, I do this thing where I try to, you know, when things happen to you, I think in show business and not, we metabolize them very quickly.
Guest:You're like, something that you couldn't imagine happening, suddenly that's your life.
Guest:Whether it's good or bad, you just, you process it very quickly.
Guest:And I always try to remember, like this 16 year old me, like how psyched he would be.
Marc:Or terrified for me.
Guest:Yeah, but he would be pretty psyched.
Guest:And I think I exceeded his kind of dreams on some level, which is, I don't know if they were dreams.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like, that's a pretty cool thing.
Guest:And also, I also think about the fact that a 16-year-old boy in Ohio decided what I was going to do for my life because not a lot of people...
Guest:That happens to a lot of people.
Guest:That was fortuitous.
Marc:I never thought of it that way.
Marc:Because I always felt like I wanted to do comedy.
Marc:I had no idea how that happens.
Marc:Because at least when you want theater, when you're 16, you're like, well, I can go do a little of that and get a feel for that.
Marc:I had this weird thing that I don't know how anyone does that.
Marc:When did you start doing it?
Marc:In college.
Marc:I tried it a couple times in college, you know, at events, you know, at college shows.
Marc:But, you know, it wasn't until after I really, maybe my third or fourth year of college where I actually went into a comedy club.
Marc:But I was, you know, there was no joy in it.
Marc:I was just paralyzed with terror all the time.
Guest:They must have gone well enough for you to want to do more.
Marc:Well, I think it's a compulsion.
Marc:I think the beauty about acting is that you can enter this zone and enter a character and be supported by a cast and a lighting person, and there's a community behind it.
Marc:With comedy, it's sort of like you're this lone wolf.
Guest:It is the starkest, scariest kind of thing.
Marc:Yeah, and it's sort of like, you know you need to get laughs, but you've got your three jokes when you're starting.
Marc:You've got five minutes, and all you do all week is worry about when you're going to go up there with your shit.
Marc:So it was more of a sickness.
Marc:but the victory is purely yours and the failure is purely yours that's exactly right and to have that stage to be on that stage i think about that a lot a lot too as a performer is sort of like you kind of earn your territory you know on stage like how am i going to own this thing right you know and it's really up to you as a comic it's sort of like you you push you pull and eventually you fit
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So in high school, you do musicals.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When was the first?
Marc:How ridiculous was the first serious role?
Guest:Oh, I went to, I went to Kenyon and my first play was about a schizophrenic poetess.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were you the doctor or something?
Guest:No, I was her boyfriend.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Like it was, I think it was called Standing on My Knees or something.
Guest:I don't even remember.
Guest:But it was, yeah, it was like suddenly I was, and it was in like the lower cafeteria.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like where they put theater, wherever they can find it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:not that it wasn't the drama school was the it was the other the stage troupe or whatever i was like it was like a um offshoot like one of the little there had like eight drama clubs at kenyon so it was like but that's just a liberal arts college right yeah but it like there's i think there's footage of me actually doing what was that play that horrible play was it called extremities where the guy locks that woman in oh yeah yeah
Marc:Like there's footage of me doing that at like 19 or 20.
Guest:When you fully understood what was going on.
Marc:Just intense and angry and off base.
Marc:And I did it for a, someone was in a TV production class, so they wanted to shoot it.
Marc:So it wasn't even a play.
Marc:So it's preserved.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you can watch it all the time.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know who has a copy of it.
Guest:I always love like in college and grad school, how you got to play like old guys.
Marc:I know you do.
Guest:But I did Awake and Sing, the Clifford Odette's play.
Guest:I played like the communist grandfather in that play my third year at NYU.
Marc:How was the makeup?
Guest:It was pretty good, but I looked like that actor Armin Mueller-Stahl.
Guest:Do you remember that guy from Shine?
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, with the mustache.
Guest:And I really think it was maybe one of the best things I've ever done because I didn't know any better.
Guest:Like, I didn't know.
Guest:This is ridiculous.
Guest:I'm 24.
Guest:Why am I playing this 70-year-old communist?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From wherever he was from.
Guest:But there's something that you throw yourself into those things and you actually have moments of magic because you don't know any better.
Guest:And when you get out into show business, they're like, no, you look like this and you'll be playing this.
Guest:It's very narrow what they expect you to do.
Marc:So, so what did you, so you got a drama undergrad degree?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I got a BA and then I went to NYU.
Marc:What was your minor?
Guest:Uh, well, I was going to be an English major, but I was going to double major, but at Kenyon, you had to do compulsory exams, like, like, uh, you had to either do a huge kind of thesis or, and the drama comps were actually kind of hard.
Guest:You had to do a production and oral defense of it and a big test at the end of
Marc:What do you mean in production?
Guest:You had to direct it?
Guest:I started.
Guest:I did this Donald Margulies play called Sight Unseen.
Guest:And then you have to have an oral defense with the professors where they kind of pick it apart.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I thought that's only happening graduate level.
Guest:It's a thing at Kenyon.
Guest:Every major has compulsory exams.
Guest:I'm pretty sure they still do.
Marc:So would they just grill you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Basically.
Marc:So you just acted in that play?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what are they?
Marc:Why did you make that choice?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:But, you know, the play was nonlinear.
Guest:It was told all... And they were asking all sorts of questions.
Guest:I ultimately realized they were asking playwriting questions that I couldn't answer.
Guest:And I think, you know, it was fine.
Guest:Everything was fine.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you graduated, you do good undergrad?
Guest:I did.
Marc:And you felt confident as an actor?
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I did.
Guest:I actually had logged a lot of hours on stage.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Now, were you doing all the other stuff, too?
Marc:Yeah, everything.
Marc:Like, did you build sets?
Marc:Oh, whoa.
Guest:You know, I did that when I apprenticed at, like, theaters, you know, where you have to hang lights and do concessions in addition to- In summer stock?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's part of the whole thing, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's kind of a- It's like a- It's an interesting little community.
Marc:It's kind of sad when things end.
Marc:I guess it's the same with a TV show.
Guest:Yeah, and I'm prone to nostalgia, so it's never good.
Guest:Are you?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What are you nostalgic about the pre-successful you?
Guest:What am I nostalgic about?
Guest:Like, I mean, you know, I can work myself up into a nostalgic kind of lather about anything.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And it just has to do with time itself passing.
Marc:Right, but is it in the form of like things were better then or is it in the form of like, oh, remember when we used to- Just that it's over and it will never be again.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I do know.
Marc:I try to stay out of it even though like I surround myself with all the garbage of my entire life.
Marc:I have books from college.
Marc:I have photographs of my first girlfriend there, my second wife.
Marc:It's like ridiculous because like some people be like, well, are you hanging on to that?
Marc:No, but that was big periods of your life.
Guest:I know, and I do question how much I should be steeped in that kind of stuff.
Marc:Well, I don't think about it all the time, but in some days I think, like, why not get rid of all of it?
Marc:Because, like, if it's in your heart, it's in your heart.
Marc:You don't have to have triggers.
Marc:Is there something comforting?
Marc:Is this some indication that, like, oh, I've lived, I've collected all this shit.
Marc:What do you surround yourself with that you think you should get rid of?
Guest:I mean, my house isn't in... It's not like this dump.
Marc:No, I'm kidding.
Marc:No, I'm a little bit of a stacker.
Marc:I'm not a hoarder.
Marc:I'm a stacker.
Guest:I have the posters and the things.
Guest:And it was kind of about the set.
Guest:Everyone keeps asking.
Guest:It's like these journalists or these reporters are like, what are you going to take from the set?
Guest:It's a big...
Guest:thing which I didn't even realize we were supposed to take anything but I did end up taking what did you take I took this iconic prop for for my character is this blue French horn which is something he steals for this girl in the very first episode and it kind of recurs throughout so the Carter and Craig the creators of the show gave it to me oh and that's something you know very sweet to have yeah but um
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were you guys, were you tearing up on that last episode?
Marc:You know, it was like a two week.
Marc:How many times have you been asked that question?
Guest:It was a two week kind of thing.
Guest:I got really teary.
Guest:Everyone did at the table read.
Guest:The final table read was pretty emotional.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone's kind of.
Guest:And then the last moment, it was Siegel had his last day.
Guest:And it was the scene where the five of us were going to be together for the last time.
Guest:That was pretty emotional.
Guest:They, you know,
Marc:Were people kind of crying?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:I mean, Alison Hannigan, like, they actually wrote her character into the whole episode crying because they knew she was just going to cry no matter what.
Guest:So why don't we just have her character crying?
Guest:And she was actually happy about that.
Guest:She's like, really smart move.
Marc:They know her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's, you know, it's...
Guest:But then I had a lot of emotions that were I found myself actually really the last day I was really like sensitive and angry about things.
Guest:And I was like, wow, I'm just a mess right now.
Guest:Like I sometimes I don't were able to feel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like and then I started to feel things a few days after, you know, so you'd have a delayed response.
Marc:Yeah, well, like, it's weird when you really find out that, you know, when some sort of, like, kind of an entire shift in your life, you know, something you've been committed to for so long is really going away.
Marc:It's like a mourning process.
Guest:And very few people, especially actors, have that stark a demarcation line.
Guest:I mean, nine years is, like, a long... Who does anything for nine years anymore?
Guest:Like, anywhere, you know, in any...
Marc:profession i just can't believe that like it's weird because like when i met you that time i i automatically feel a connection to people in general and that like i knew you were hanging out with jesse i knew you know her and we're jewish and so i so i had something invested in in in whatever moment we like right but initially it was probably like no that guy just got out here and he's got a show already so you're like
Guest:I hadn't been out here.
Marc:But you're a very nice guy.
Marc:And because of that, like now the second time we even talk, it's like on the other side of this, it's nine years later.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:And that's also scary because of the...
Guest:Like, I don't know if this I don't even think this is this is going to be very stupid what I'm saying, but like time is moving fast, like and it seems to be just really moving fast in a way that is alarming.
Guest:A lot of that's what liberal arts is about, because I went back to Kenyon to show my first movie and suddenly everyone was calling me Mr. Radner.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I was just drinking out of that keg right there.
Guest:Like, how are you?
Guest:And I realized I was nearly twice as old as, like, the freshman there.
Guest:And that really freaked me out.
Marc:So I... Because there's part of a special... You're not married.
Marc:No.
Marc:And, yeah, well, I mean, it's weird if you...
Marc:Because I'm the same way.
Marc:I'm not married.
Marc:I don't have kids.
Marc:And I think that something gets tempered about your acknowledgement of age when you have those kind of responsibilities.
Marc:When you don't, there's part of you that's sort of like, hey, I know these kids.
Marc:This is me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the central thing, Richard Jenkins in liberal arts, he tells me since he was 19, he's never felt not 19.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But his face in the mirror, he can't believe that it's not a 19-year-old face.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and then the line in that scene that he says at the end is nobody feels like an adult.
Guest:That's the world's dirty secret.
Marc:That's your dialogue.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're a big thinker, man.
Guest:It's reflected.
Guest:I don't.
Marc:Yeah, it's just you don't.
Marc:You don't like when when you're writing.
Marc:I don't know what your process is, but with the first film, was that lighter than liberal arts?
Guest:They're both kind of a mix of, you know, funny, sad.
Marc:But do you find that you're working out like... Because you seem to be weighing the bigger questions.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you seem to have a dialogue around a lot of them.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But do you learn more about that dialogue through your characters?
Marc:100%.
Guest:I mean, I write... I'll get a big...
Guest:So for liberal arts, for instance, I said, okay, 35-year-old guy, doesn't have a lot going on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Goes back to his college that he loves for his favorite professor's retirement dinner.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Meets and falls for a 19-year-old sophomore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, that's what I had just as the bones.
Marc:Which is, like, in and of itself, like, you know, as a story, you know, it's completely relatable.
Guest:Yeah, it felt like there was a lot to it.
Guest:But as I started writing, it became about time, nostalgia, aging, books, why we read, what the purpose is of an education, how...
Guest:A liberal arts education can both serve you and also get in your way on some level.
Marc:Now, what did you learn about that?
Marc:How does it serve you?
Marc:Because I know how it served me.
Guest:I mean, I think it serves you.
Guest:It serves, I mean, critical thinking, empathy, you know, stepping into other shoes.
Guest:Opening your mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Empathy.
Guest:There's a James Baldwin quote I just saw that was so amazing about the the the loneliness he feels in the world is corresponds.
Guest:It goes down, essentially, the more books he reads.
Guest:So the more connection he can make with other people are feeling these things, too.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It makes you feel less alone in the world.
Guest:He said it much more beautifully.
Guest:that i just well i think that's important about conversation in general yeah yeah and not just books but i imagine if you were stranded that you know reading books would so you're saying it kind of it grows your capacity for emotional understanding for yes certainly and it and it exposes you obviously to other cultures and other perspectives and other all these things and exposes you to other people who are um chewing on these big ideas all at the same time at a very sensitive time i mean that college age time is if you take advantage of
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I speak to I do a lot of college speaking and I actually love doing it because I find that those you seem like a teacher.
Guest:I've come from teachers, but they're they're kids who are like really open.
Guest:And I think that even today, like the college kids in my unscientific sampling of them seems they seem less cynical.
Marc:You know, they seem like I think kids seem less cynical in general.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that when I grew up, you're what, 30, what'd you say?
Marc:39.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're 10 years younger than me, but when I grew up, there was still this weird crashing wave of the 60s.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And there was a type of, you know, you were aspiring to, you know, your role models were different.
Marc:A lot of them were grittier and...
Guest:yeah i just think in general that that kids are a little more detached from i think culturally everything's changed i think they know a lot more yeah and i'm sure the internet has something to do with that like like uh you know in the same way it's like the baldwin thing like actually seeing you know if you're a lonely kid living in wherever yeah and you feel like you can actually find a community online that are a bunch of little use and we're gonna assume that's good
Guest:I sometimes it could not be good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have no idea, man.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:It's still the Wild West.
Marc:It really is in terms of what these generations are going to.
Marc:They're all going to adapt.
Marc:I mean, that's the other thing that once you get to a certain age and you find yourself saying things like, you know, when I was younger, it's like that's been said every generation.
Marc:And obviously things are a lot different now.
Marc:But, you know, people are still people.
Marc:They're still contained in this vessel.
Marc:They're only capable of one thing.
Marc:And adapting is one of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, the nuts and bolts of emotions are going to be what they're going to be.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, one of the things in liberal arts is, you know, she says she basically feels like he's patronizing her.
Guest:Like when I, you know, like I feel different now than I felt when I was here.
Guest:And she's like, but every stage is hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he says, but yeah, but I felt things when I was here that I no longer feel.
Guest:And you don't know.
Guest:Like, for instance, you know, I always think about how I met your mother was on nine years.
Guest:That's high school plus college plus one year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like imagine how different you were your freshman year of high school to your first year out of college.
Marc:Well, you were 30.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel like you do you think do you feel that you were able to sort of mature through that?
Marc:Or do you think that you were some sort of suspended?
Guest:You know, it's both.
Guest:Honestly, I mean, I feel I had massive changes go on, but I also look at my life and it's not that much.
Guest:I mean, I'm still kicking around.
Marc:I'm still like, no, you seem very, very similar to the three minutes that I talked to you last time.
Guest:yeah well I've worked at that you know what I mean like I think it's important in show business you kind of got to like choose your heroes wisely who are yours just like nice awesome people that I've met along the way that you kind of collect and say you know you work we had a ton of great older actors come through How I Met Your Mother and I thought oh this person's great did you develop relationships with them yeah I've hung on to you know Brian Cranston was on pre Breaking Bad John Lithgow Franny Conroy Martin Short like just awesome people and you're friends with them
Guest:Yeah, I'm having dinner with Martin Short tonight, actually.
Guest:That must be entertaining.
Guest:We've never done it, but we'll see.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'll let you know.
Guest:Why now?
Guest:Because we'd been trying to do it.
Guest:We did the thing, and then I ran into him after we saw Pippin, and I saw him backstage, and we just struck up this funny conversation and decided to have dinner.
Marc:But isn't that interesting, just coming from that...
Marc:Obviously, you were on this hit show, but to come from where you were when I met you, and then there's that moment where you're like, can I hang out with Martin?
Guest:I still have it a little bit.
Guest:I'm like excited, but I'm also like, how many Three Amigos questions am I allowed?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what are we going to talk about?
Guest:Can we talk about inner space?
Guest:Remember that movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where you went in the, yeah.
Marc:Dennis Quaid and his body.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he's a, he's like, he's got great stories and he's a very funny guy.
Guest:It's weird also to be working alongside people that you grew up watching.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That always.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:I know from talking to them, but yeah, but it must be a trip.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's great because it also is a great leveler.
Guest:You know, you feel like we have a common thing.
Guest:Like we're doing the same thing.
Guest:Like when I watch, I think John Lithgow is like a totally great talent and the nicest guy in the world.
Guest:And I watch him and I'm like, he does it better than I do, but I do the same thing he does.
Guest:You know, we're in the same biz.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a profession.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's an amazing moment to reach a level of professionalism and also career where you accept that and you realize that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a mixture of both art and craft.
Guest:It's like watching a carpenter or something.
Guest:You're like, look at what they do, but they do it extra special or something.
Guest:And I'm always stealing from people.
Guest:You're always watching people so you can steal stuff from them.
Guest:Like what, technique?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:If you're watching Lithgow, what did you learn from him?
Guest:Well, I did a series that didn't go anywhere with Sally Field.
Guest:Before?
Guest:Before, yeah.
Guest:It was called The Court about the Supreme Court.
Guest:I was one of her clerks and I was just shocked at how little it looked like she was doing.
Guest:And then you'd watch it back and you'd see how much she was doing.
Guest:And it was, I had come from the, I had come from the theater.
Guest:So I was always like, get it to the,
Guest:back of the house and i found that there was something about um the minimalism of it oh and this is weird and maybe i should bring this up tonight but i think this was a martin short quote that i've always thought about where he said people say in the theater you be as big as you can and on screen you be as small as you can he said it's actually the reverse in the theater you try to be as small and subtle as you can but still have it read to the back row and in film you want to be as expressive as you can without being too big for the frame
Marc:Tricky.
Guest:It's tricky, really tricky.
Guest:And I still feel like I'm refining it all the time.
Marc:Well, I found that, too.
Marc:Like, I worked with, oh, it's like, it's weird I'm talking to you, and I've completely dismissed the fact that I've done two seasons of my own show.
Marc:I'm like, this guy's an actor.
Marc:But I'm not, like, I was not a trained actor.
Marc:But, like, even working with Sally Kellerman, who played my mother, you know, like, we'd go over these takes, we'd go over these takes, and when you're in it, after a few takes, you have no idea what you have.
Marc:And you can't tell what makes people great.
Marc:And then when you watch it back, you're like, oh my God.
Guest:Well, a lot of times, like either movies I've directed or How I Met Your Mother, you think you're like doing great acting because it feels like, this is great.
Guest:You're like throwing a chair across.
Guest:And then you watch it and you're like, that's grotesque.
Guest:And then something where you just weren't even, you were just listening, for instance.
Guest:And you find yourself like, wow, that's really watchable.
Marc:Well, that's the trickiest thing is listening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you watch yourself, you're able to... I know when I do okay, and I'm better at watching myself, but do you find that when you judge yourself harshly in watching in the edit, that maybe you're the only one that notices?
Guest:Well, yes, of course you're going to be a harsh critic, but the greatest thing I did for myself as an actor was edit myself, to direct two movies that I was in, and you lose...
Guest:I became really ruthless with myself, but not in a super judgmental way.
Guest:At a certain point, it wasn't even like, oh, I look good or I look bad.
Guest:I was just like, okay, I get what I look like.
Guest:There was some sort of acceptance of like, that's what I look like.
Guest:I don't like when I make that face.
Guest:I'm never going to choose those takes.
Guest:But you get really good at... I just found that I learned a lot about myself as an actor.
Guest:And editing myself has been just as valuable for me as an actor as anything I've ever done.
Marc:But it's interesting.
Marc:I've talked to a few actors, and not to disregard anyone who has a conversation is going to give me what they're going to give me, but it seems like you've got a lot of plates spinning for an actor.
Guest:Well, I think also... Because you want to direct, you are a writer.
Guest:A couple people told me early on, they said, you might not get everything you need from acting.
Guest:I think there's a few people... Philip Seymour Hoffman, to me...
Marc:I just watched it for hours last night.
Guest:He had a career that was like so big, like so big, like he did everything.
Guest:And to me, that's a satisfying career.
Guest:I mean, there's so few people that actually can kind of call their shots as an actor and actually do really meaningful creative work all the time.
Marc:Do you want to go to the depths that he went to?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, not even... No.
Guest:I mean, maybe once with the great director who's going to support me and hold my hand the whole way.
Guest:But that's not... I work from joy, honestly.
Guest:Like, I don't work from... When I'm depressed, I can't create.
Marc:But if you were called upon, because even in, like, I really like Jill's movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was a turn in that character that you played, Life, where, you know, his wife is starting to drift.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when the reality comes to the struggle of accepting what she wants to do in order to sort of, you know, like, you know, save the marriage in a way that, you know, you know, it was it was heavy because I've been married and, you know, and you played that frustration, which was relatively dark.
Guest:yeah you know when you that stuff i like i mean i like complicated interesting like i'm supposed to do this indie that is super dark and like i'm happy to do that i just don't want to you know expose a vein all the time you know do you have it to expose i think i do but but but i need um i need to feel safe on some level or that the space is held and that i try to create that for actors when i
Guest:So it's interesting.
Marc:So when you do an indie film or stuff, and they might have these expectations of you, there's sometimes a moment where you're like, I don't feel comfortable doing that.
Guest:Well, Soloway, I mean, I'll do anything for her.
Marc:Sure, sure, sure.
Marc:But the idea of feeling safer, that someone's going to hold the space, it takes some gravitas to do that.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:But you also, the longer you do it, you become someone who can kind of bring that in.
Guest:You know, you bring your own, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but you bring that with you, that permission.
Guest:You give yourself permission to do it or you don't, you know.
Guest:But I think if you're working on a project you believe in, you'll give yourself permission to kind of go there, so to speak.
Marc:Now, how do you feel like now?
Marc:Okay, so tonight's the final episode.
Marc:Everyone's going to get, do you think it's going to be a satisfying close for all the fans?
Guest:I think that it'll piss people off in the same way that everything pisses everyone off.
Marc:I was not pissed off at all at the end of Breaking Bad.
Marc:I felt like I got closure.
Marc:I let it go.
Guest:But, you know, just even subjecting yourself to the online landscape, it's like some people think your mother was brilliant for four seasons, then got terrible.
Marc:But there's also people that are just going to miss you.
Guest:I think maybe that's what they're saying.
Guest:They get mad at you.
Guest:Why are you leaving?
Guest:Because they miss you.
Guest:And there has been a really deep emotional kind of outpouring of sadness over the show ending, which is, I think, a testament to us doing a good job.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:And you had your own sadness.
Marc:And now that you've done it, and I've got to assume you're okay financially for a little while, you're going to go right into writing and directing.
Marc:I think so.
Guest:I mean, I have a couple of other things.
Guest:I'm going to do a play this summer.
Guest:Where?
Guest:At New York Stage and Film up at Vassar.
Guest:This Richard Greenberg play.
Marc:What kind of production is that?
Guest:It's just where they kind of workshop new plays outside of the eye of the New York critics kind of thing.
Marc:So you're just going to go do a little acting?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Get back on stage.
Guest:Yeah, I was, and that was one of the places I went.
Guest:I was 19 years old.
Guest:I was an acting apprentice.
Marc:So you're, that's all.
Guest:They brought me back like every six or seven years.
Guest:It's really, I think they like to trot me out for the apprentices and be like, see?
Marc:Yeah, he did all right.
Marc:You can do it.
Marc:Look at this kid.
Marc:You can do it.
Marc:Well, let's go back to that.
Marc:So when you went to, where you went to Tisch?
Marc:yeah that's a good one yeah it's a real good one yeah now what was the program like there i mean like because i like i can really feel that you seem to have your craft in place i'm very impressed with the way with the tenor of your voice oh thanks but my levels yeah but what uh you know what what how did you evolve what who were some of the the kind of life-changing you know outside of the martin short quote and watching other actors or seeing the subtlety of sally field you know who would you consider a mentor early on
Guest:So when I went to Vassar, I was 19.
Guest:It was- This before graduate school.
Guest:It was in between my sophomore and junior year at Kenyon.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I went there for the summer.
Guest:My father was like, actually revealed to me, he said, well, he's never acted outside of Ohio.
Guest:He's going to get slaughtered by all these East Coast geniuses.
Marc:Isn't it weird?
Marc:Don't you feel on some level that there isn't a statue of limitations on what your parents can tell you about what was really going on?
Marc:Yeah, and it's constant.
Guest:They reveal more things the older you get.
Marc:I know, and it's crazy.
Marc:Eventually you're like, was my whole life a lie?
Guest:You had a really robust inner narrative going on about me that I had no idea.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:You know?
Marc:The question is, maybe they should just keep it to themselves.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But they do become more, they disclose more as the years go on.
Guest:It's true, it's true.
Guest:So I was there that summer, and they did two Shakespeare productions.
Guest:And your dad was counting on you failing.
Guest:In a way, yeah.
Guest:He just thought he'll go to law school eventually.
Guest:And I ended up getting Macbeth.
Guest:I ended up getting the lead of one of the Shakespeare productions.
Guest:And I remember calling my parents on the payphone, and they were really stunned, and I don't think entirely happy, maybe.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, oh, this thing's continuing.
Guest:But I had a great summer there.
Guest:And I had one of the great things about being at Vassar.
Guest:And one of the things I try to do, I go to The Apprentice's production because I remember when there's a great actor, Peter Frechette.
Guest:Do you know Peter Frechette?
Guest:He was on 30 something.
Guest:He's just an amazing stage actor.
Guest:And Jane Kaczmarek, who was on Malcolm in the Middle, not at that point.
Guest:But they were two... I did running crew for a production they were in.
Guest:And they were two people who came and saw me in these productions.
Guest:And they both separately pulled me aside and said, you're going to be an actor.
Guest:Like, you're going to do this.
Guest:They said, not everyone here is going to do it.
Guest:And you're going to do it.
Guest:And to me, like 19-year-old Ohio boy, to see like two actors that I thought were amazing...
Guest:I felt like I got a secret handshake.
Guest:And those are the kinds of things that you put them in the deepest place inside you to pull out on a rainy day.
Guest:The days that are so dark and you're like, why did I do this?
Guest:I'm not talented.
Guest:And you remember, no, someone actually said you're going to do this.
Guest:And until you can generate it yourself, you almost have to depend on those external sources.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:And it was a powerful summer for me because I went back to Kenyon even more resolved about doing this professionally.
Guest:It wasn't like a maybe.
Guest:It was like, I'm doing this.
Marc:And it's also great to see actors who have had careers in film and in television still going back to the stage and understanding, I think, as an adult that it is a profession.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I think when you're younger, you're sort of like, I'm just going to be in a movie.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, I also think there's a lot of, um, there's a, the feeling because good acting makes it looks easy and because it looks like life, a lot of people think they can do it.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:It's with comedy too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I feel like, um, I'm, I really try to tell people like I was not discovered in a coffee shop.
Guest:Like I went to school the way you go to law school or med school.
Marc:How long were the graduate program?
Marc:Three years.
Marc:So it's seven.
Guest:Around the clock.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And then you come out here.
Guest:Well, I was in and around New York for a little while.
Marc:Doing what?
Marc:Stage?
Guest:Doing theater.
Marc:Should you go like experimental?
Marc:No, good.
Guest:Like, I got my equity card at Manhattan Theater Club off Broadway.
Guest:Understudied, took over a role actually when the actor left.
Guest:I did an Eric Bogosian play at Baltimore Center stage.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:It's called Griller.
Guest:It never came into New York.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But what's interesting about him, and I imagine that you learn from somebody like him, is that he's a phenomenal talent, both as an actor and as a creator.
Marc:But if you spend time with him, you're like, oh my god, he struggles with himself.
Marc:Oh my god, yeah.
Marc:And he's completely at once insecure and confident.
Guest:But that's also, in some ways, that's a relief.
Marc:No, no, I know.
Guest:Because you don't want to, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, I don't want to be, I don't want my artistic heroes to just be like saints.
Guest:I want them to feel real and that's why you like them.
Marc:Yeah, I don't gravitate towards any saints.
Marc:I think mostly the opposite of saints.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That guy had a hard time.
Marc:I like him.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Share your struggles with me.
Marc:Okay, so you work with Boghossian.
Guest:I work with Boghossian.
Guest:Then I didn't work for six months.
Guest:I auditioned for everything in New York, and then I went to Vassar to play.
Marc:Is that when you had the sort of like, what am I doing?
Marc:Tell me about those times where you say you struggle and you have to hold on to these little tidbits of support.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you one of the things I learned early on was like, I can't sit around with other grad school grads and complain about how hard it is to be an actor.
Guest:Like I found that that it was such a cycle.
Guest:It's like a fragile your psyche.
Guest:So fragile as an artist that you that I didn't want to submerge myself in all that negativity.
Guest:Because it'll, it'll beat you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're done.
Guest:You know, I told, I always tell people like, it's not, people don't quit acting because acting's hard.
Guest:They quit acting because not acting's hard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Unemployment's tough.
Guest:It's like, it's, I said, it's like a life of snow days.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You wake up and you're, I was actually making enough to not have to do another job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I didn't have a lot of money, but I didn't have to do another job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I started writing because I had hours to fill.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I had days and days to fill.
Marc:Writing as opposed to like, you know, waking up late, smoking weed.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Hanging out with guys going, we're fucked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I tried that on for a while and I was like, this is not working.
Marc:No.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:That's that party that didn't want to be a terrible person.
Marc:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:Because there's no way for you not to absorb.
Marc:You can lock into that type of cynicism, to that sort of self-loathing.
Guest:We're really contagious.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And I think you have to be careful about what you're going to subject yourself to.
Marc:Yeah, and be big enough or at least self-aware enough to pull out of it because I was cynical and bitter and insecure for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And sometimes it takes some success to make that go away, unfortunately.
Guest:Yes, I think that's right.
Guest:Or at least little tastes of it along the way.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:And I had a couple little breaks.
Guest:I got fired from my first pilot.
Guest:What was that one?
Guest:It was called Off Centers on the WB.
Marc:So you moved out here.
Marc:I moved out here.
Marc:I got my first pilot I auditioned for.
Marc:You had representation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got my first pilot I auditioned for.
Guest:We shot it.
Guest:I got fired.
Guest:I got replaced.
Guest:That's rough.
Marc:Welcome to Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I went back to New York, did two plays, came back.
Guest:I think I did a Law and Order.
Guest:Then I got this Sally Field show that got canceled after six episodes.
Guest:Or three episodes they aired.
Guest:We shot six.
Guest:Then I went back to New York and I got The Graduate on Broadway with Kathleen Turner and Lisa Silverstone.
Marc:How was that?
Marc:Great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was over three months.
Guest:I just...
Guest:It was like the greatest summer theater gig ever.
Guest:I didn't have to get reviewed.
Marc:On Broadway?
Guest:Yeah, it was a big hit.
Guest:I just jumped in.
Guest:Two weeks of rehearsal.
Marc:You replaced somebody?
Marc:I replaced Jason Biggs.
Guest:He did a Woody Allen movie, so I got to take over while he was doing that.
Guest:And then I came back out to LA.
Marc:Always on the stage, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You really got a foot in that.
Marc:yeah it's where i feel the most it's where i feel like i know what i'm doing the most i think that's rare you know in in a sense that like a lot of movie actors and can't do it they can't do this i'd love to you know i know cranston's did you go see him as i haven't been yet no but i hear it's great is it i i just saw it i didn't i didn't know about it but i was in new york when you were there what was it last week yeah and i saw the sign for it i'm like that'd be interesting that guy's a great actor
Marc:I've talked to him in here, and you know what's amazing about him in terms of what we're talking about and sort of what you're talking about is just how, like, his work ethic, and he's got this sort of utilitarian kind of like, you know, it's my job.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But the great ones are like that.
Guest:They're like craftsmen.
Guest:You know, they just go from town to town.
Guest:They do their job, and they don't get too crazy about it.
Guest:And even if something's not great, they're like, ah, this one wasn't great.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:They can move on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And their whole life is not hinging on it.
Guest:No.
Guest:I'm a little...
Guest:too precious about that i actually admire that kind of thing because it because if i'm doing what it gets a gig yeah if i if i'm doing something that i hate it's like i can't enjoy my hours even when i'm not there because i'm like oh god i gotta go back there you know have you had a lot like that not no i've been thankful that i haven't all right so you do the three pilots and the three shows and they get so your fourth one was how i met your mother yeah
Marc:Like, I can't even imagine you've gone through a whole evolution as a person while you stayed in this character.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That's actually been really hard because it's like you're evolving so much faster than the characters evolving.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you almost feel like you're, this is going to sound kind of condescending, but you almost feel like
Guest:I'm a PhD candidate and I'm doing the SATs or something, you know, where you have to go back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, the character's great.
Guest:I found the longer I played him, I felt distanced from him more and he was more fun to play when I wasn't thinking he was some version of me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Right.
Marc:I felt that too with the second season of the show.
Guest:But the problem was that if you play a role and you play it fairly successfully and, you know, my...
Guest:you know, independent films weren't like global box office sensation.
Guest:So it's not like everyone saw me do other things.
Guest:So you just get overly identified with a part and then that becomes the challenge of the next phase of your career.
Marc:But yeah, also like it's interesting because in the landscape we are now where, you know, it's a hit show, but it's a big media landscape.
Marc:I mean, that identification is going to be specific.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like there's going to be people that don't identify you with that at all.
Guest:and just know right right i mean i always try to remember you know if nine million people watch how i met your mother a week it's like well like 300 290 million americans are not watching it so it's like i'm hearing from the people who watch it but like there's plenty of people that i'm just like a guy at the airport that's comforting right that actually is comforting you know that you still have that yeah and i think it's it's always good to remember and you don't travel with an entourage no not at all
Marc:not at all you came over here alone i did i did you can vouch for that but now it's just a matter of how much can my restlessness like how much time can i really take what would be a dream gig i mean outside of directing a movie which you're gonna do yeah and and writing these things but i mean what who would you like to work with you know if you were to do a film and who would you know what director you do you want to do a woody allen movie um
Marc:Do you want to work with like Martin Scorsese?
Marc:Do you want to work?
Guest:I'm like a Richard Linkletter fan.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really want to see that movie.
Guest:He shot over like a decade.
Guest:Did you hear about the movie Boy?
Marc:No.
Guest:It was Ethan Hawke and I think Patricia Arquette and this kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they started shooting when he was like seven or eight.
Guest:And they go through every, every, they shot three days every year.
Marc:It's like that documentary.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's it called?
Guest:seven up 14 up yeah um they shot like for like three days every year so it's like this unbelievably innovative project i mean i just think i love what he's up to i just think he's always worth that seems like something you could do to do that no to talk to richard winkleiter and say that you know put me in a movie
Guest:Maybe I will.
Marc:Well, I mean, you don't have to say it like that.
Marc:Maybe I will.
Marc:Maybe instead of having dinner with Martin Short.
Guest:I'm going to say, Martin, do you know Richard Linklater?
Marc:Yeah, can you give me his number?
Marc:I think I met him once.
Marc:You've never met him before?
Guest:I've been like, I've been like at places with him where I'm two feet away.
Guest:Do I tap him on the shoulder and interrupt the conversation he's in kind of proximity?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've always chickened out.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:Like here you are in like this massive hit show, you know, with national recognition, you got chops, you're, you're fucking solid, but there's still part of you.
Marc:It's like, I don't want to bother Richard.
Guest:Well, of course, but also like, I suspect he doesn't watch how I met your mother.
Guest:Although Quentin Tarantino does, it's his favorite show, which I thought was really interesting.
Guest:Did you get to meet him?
Guest:I haven't met him yet, but he was, he was a, he's a big fan and he is also a fan of Jill's movie.
Guest:So he knows who I am.
Marc:We'll see.
Marc:Would you like to be in one of his movies?
Guest:I actually am a big Tarantino fan.
Marc:It's hard not to be sort of mildly obsessed with what he does.
Guest:I think he makes great movies.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:He just makes great movies.
Marc:No one does what he does.
Marc:No.
Guest:And I also generally don't like really violent things, but for some reason his violence doesn't bother me.
Marc:He's got an elevated sort of bizarre sense of humor and force to anything he does.
Marc:There are some movies where it's like, I could maybe not like 20 minutes of it, but then there's another 20 that are beyond anything I've ever seen before.
Marc:But the method, the way of dialogue and the pacing of things and sort of how erratic he can be is pretty astounding.
Guest:I also think his villains are so like archetypally bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So when they die, you find yourself cheering in almost like it's like a Greek play or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And just like his editing, like if you watch, it's like Scorsese too.
Marc:Like when I watched Wolf of Wall Street, I was so relieved that, you know, he had gotten his, like either he's going to do his thing, that sort of manic momentum with the layers of music and everything.
Guest:and and it's so gratifying the same with tarantino he's got a very unique fucking momentum you know you just feel like you know everything is loaded up you also kind of have that feeling that like he really knows what he's doing so you can relax yeah you know what i mean it's like some some films are a little bit like watching a waiter with like carry 10 plates and you're like they're not in total control of this yeah and he just really knows what he's doing
Marc:He knows what he's doing and also he'll push the limits of it.
Marc:Like, you know, he knows what he's doing and he's obviously very efficient.
Marc:Then all of a sudden he does something or like, what the fuck?
Guest:I know.
Guest:So you're never ahead of it.
Guest:Nope, never.
Guest:And you just feel kind of- That's a good thing.
Guest:I went and saw, I saw Django on Christmas day with two of my friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know, big cup of coffee's like 11 a.m., perfect seats, and it was just, it was as pleasurable a time as I had going to a movie in a really long time.
Marc:Oh yeah, it's astounding.
Marc:It's astounding how he can go in and out of sort of, like it's all within his vision, but there are some things where he'll do like three or four minutes in a movie where like, that was stunning.
Marc:That was like European.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I also think his film vocabulary is larger than anyone's.
Marc:That's where it is.
Guest:So he just is drawing on a limitless well.
Marc:He's not ashamed to do it.
Marc:That's his style.
Guest:That's something I've had to do in the last couple of years is give myself film school.
Guest:Because I'm a proper actor and that's where my training is.
Guest:So I think I have storytelling instincts from being inside of a lot of scripts and characters.
Guest:But cinematically, I've had to really educate myself.
Guest:Well, how do you do that?
Guest:I get, you know, like I order a lot of Criterion collection and really try to watch those movies and just fill in the blanks.
Marc:The Bicycle Thief.
Guest:Yeah, The Bicycle Thief.
Guest:Rome, Open City.
Guest:I got that.
Guest:I haven't watched it.
Guest:Is that good?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got all the, you know, Louie Mall.
Guest:Have you seen Murmur of the Heart?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You got to watch this Louie Mall movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's nuts.
Guest:It's kind of like Spanking the Monkey before Spanking the Monkey.
Marc:It's like a mother-son.
Guest:It's fantastic.
Guest:That movie really has stayed with me.
Guest:What other ones, man?
Marc:So you're going through the film?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I had such big gaps.
Guest:I mean, I saw it a couple years ago, but I'm obsessed, and I've now watched it many times, but The Apartment is one of my favorite movies.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Unbelievable.
Guest:Great.
Guest:On the Waterfront, I haven't seen, which is so good.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's crazy good.
Guest:And sometimes I go into these a little trepidatiously where I'm like, okay, this feels like homework.
Guest:But then on the waterfront, you're just like, this movie works completely.
Marc:Yeah, and you can watch it again and again.
Marc:That's the weird thing, because on some of the airplanes, I don't know if it's Virgin or whatever, where they have the classic collection of movies.
Marc:Yeah, I always watch those.
Marc:Right, so I haven't seen this in a while.
Guest:Yeah, I've got a bunch kind of queued up that I need to watch.
Marc:And how do you study it?
Marc:What do you think?
Guest:I mean, I just watch it, and I...
Guest:I try to kind of let it wash over me, and then I ask myself some questions like, why did that work?
Guest:What was interesting about that?
Guest:What kept my attention?
Guest:What didn't keep my attention?
Guest:Because, you know, I think some things are... Some of those movies are really... You watch some of those 70s movies where you think...
Guest:This must have been at its time, like an explosion went off in the theater.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you watch it now and everyone's built upon that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it seems like you can't understand the force when you're divorced from the time.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That it came on.
Guest:I mean, when I grew up, it was like John Hughes era.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I still think those movies are great.
Marc:Kind of missed a lot.
Guest:And The Breakfast Club, I watched again.
Guest:Have you not seen The Breakfast Club?
Marc:Sure I have.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think I've seen them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I've seen The Breakfast Club a couple of times.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah, it's a great movie when you're a teenager.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or like Spielberg was big, like Loom Large.
Marc:Dude, to watch like fucking, I just watched Jaws part of it last night.
Marc:Like Jaws, Close Encounters.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I get hung up on the idea of why he used Francois Truffaut
Marc:as this intermediary like to me it was such a like in my mind I always assume that it's like some sort of um kind of a multi-layered tip of the hat because you know Truffaut is the guy that comes in with the technology to communicate right through sight and sound right right right
Marc:With the aliens, and he's got Truffaut, the guy who was part of the French New Wave, who defined the auteur theory.
Marc:And there was a magazine called Sight and Sound out of France that sort of documented the original auteurs.
Marc:And I'm like, Spielberg's so smart.
Marc:That's why he put him in there.
Guest:Well, it's fun to kind of in-joke in movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if that's real.
Marc:I don't know if I'm making it up.
Guest:I'm sure there's something.
Guest:I mean, it's also cool that you can call up your heroes and say, do you want to spend a month with me in New Mexico where they filmed that, you know?
Marc:Yeah, I think he is... You can criticize him all you want, but what a fucking dude has got a handle on him.
Guest:Oh, he's a genius.
Marc:It's beyond anything.
Guest:I can even... And one thing I learned from him, and I keep trying to remind myself, is his images are just simple, but so powerful.
Guest:He's not...
Guest:He doesn't overcomplicate things in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like he really just juxtaposes images that tell the story and get your heart racing or make you cry or whatever.
Guest:Like, it's very simple, but he's masterful at it.
Marc:What's interesting to see the guys that really set out to make box office smashes, you know, like he clearly wants to make big movies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:right but it doesn't feel at the expense of your intelligence no no not at all you know but then you look at like scorsese who was like what the fuck is where did that guy come from right where the fuck did taxi driver come from when was the last time you watched fucking goodfellas oh i have it i actually watched about half of it kind of recently yeah i watch it like twice a year yeah i watch the first two godfathers every year like the second godfather that what is that that's fucking it's all in there
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Smart shit.
Guest:Those are not overrated movies, I think.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It's exciting to be excited about things.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:I agree with that.
Guest:It's better than thinking things are terrible and hating things.
Marc:Being cynical.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I like when I'm sort of like, this is great.
Marc:I love this.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And something changed in my heart and mind where it's sort of like, I try to look for the good things as opposed to dismissing things.
Marc:The weird thing about being cynical or ironically detached is that when you're sitting in front of something that someone spent millions of dollars and put all of their fucking heart and mind into it and really put it out there, it deserves more than like, I don't know.
Guest:100%.
Guest:I mean, you know, when you actually start creating stuff, like really creating stuff that you're from the Kishkas, you know, like really.
Guest:And then you naturally get a kind of hostile relationship to the marketplace and to critics because you feel like they're just like, next.
Marc:And then you're sort of like, what the fuck do you do?
Marc:Your life is determined by what we do.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I mean, you're parasites.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And, you know, all you're there for is to sort of fuel a market or serve your own voice.
Marc:Right.
Guest:There's a great thing I read about the true critic is more loyal to the artist than to his audience.
Guest:Like that's who he's writing for and to in some ways.
Guest:It's like a shared dialogue or a love letter between you and the artist.
Guest:And older critics used to do that.
Guest:I mean, I think...
Guest:I appreciate a good critic.
Guest:Like Pauline Kael, I read something that said, she was never better than when she passionately loved something.
Guest:And nowadays, I feel like critics are, their kind of rhetorical fireworks go off when they hate something and can take something down.
Marc:Well, the whole culture is based on provoking conflict or provoking controversy.
Marc:The media landscape has become so fragmented and competitive that they don't think that content is only that which has traction and conflict has traction.
Marc:And dumping on people has traction.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I also think that there's no, you know, because the marketplace is so fierce, there's no kind of apprenticeship or sense of allowing a talent to grow and incubate something.
Marc:And also, with a good critic, you learn things about yourself.
Guest:You learn things about what you created, 100%.
Marc:And if you trust a guy, even if it hits you hard, you're like, yeah, that's kind of right.
Marc:I remember the New York Times wrote up my one-man show, and I was so excited, it was the only New York Times review I really got.
Marc:And he basically said it was good, and it was something about dramatic structure.
Marc:He said, I didn't see the character transform.
Marc:That within the hour and 15 minutes or hour and a half of my journey on stage, that there was no third act in a way.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:How does he transform?
Marc:And I wasn't even thinking about that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And at first I was like, but at the very end, I kind of have an awakening.
Right.
Guest:Was that your open letter to the New York Times?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Fuck you.
Marc:I awakened.
Marc:No, but transforming of character, that where does that character go is sort of essential to the story in some ways.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Even if he doesn't go anywhere or he goes, that should read as a transformation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I got a really lovely review from Roger Ebert on liberal arts.
Guest:And it was, you know, towards the end of his life.
Guest:And I had a draft of a letter I was writing him to thank him and he died.
Guest:I've always been sad about that.
Guest:it was another one of those things that you hold on to and kind of keep, you know, cause this guy, Stephen Holden in the New York times will not give it up for my movies on any level.
Guest:I mean, he's just, he's just doesn't like me.
Guest:I think he's like, you stay in TV.
Guest:He always compares my movies to sitcoms, which is like, dude, I'm on a sitcom.
Guest:Like, like that's so lazy, you know?
Guest:Um, but Roger Ebert wrote such lovely words about it.
Guest:And, and,
Guest:you know at at its best i think criticism can do what you it can it can illuminate what you've done that's what it's supposed to do that's what it's supposed to do i don't think it's supposed to be like this sucks i summarized it and now i you know like holden even he gave away plot twists and liberal arts that are kind of like a sweet surprise yeah like stuff so he's being a dick i think i don't know i don't want to i don't want to i i'm i've never met the guy i don't know why it doesn't matter
Guest:it doesn't matter none of it matters we're gonna be dead in a hundred years well but you know even those reviews matter less and less as time goes on there's a great Winston Churchill quote where he says few things in life are as exhilarating as to be shot at without result and I kind of feel like criticism is a little like that it's like the bullets are whizzing by and you're like they didn't get me I'm gonna create something else screw you that's a good way to end thanks for talking man it was good to be here music music
Marc:I really think I could have talked to that guy for a long time.
Marc:I think I did talk to him for a long time.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:On Thursday, the amazing Louis Black is here.
Marc:And once again, a lot of things I didn't know about Louis.
Marc:And I'll be honest with you, we had a very candid conversation about everything that led up to his break.
Marc:Last stuff I didn't know.
Marc:It's a very unique interview with Lewis Black.
Marc:So that's coming up on Thursday.
Marc:I love you all.
Marc:Go to WTF pod dot com.
Marc:I believe we're probably going to get rid of the comments.
Marc:That's that's starting to that's starting to feel like the thing to do that.
Marc:You know, it's not really community there.
Marc:It's randomly, you know, a place for people to express.
Marc:shitty things and then a few people expressing good things but you know that's about the size of it so i think that's going so if you want to get your last licks in at the comments at wtf pod do that as i said in the intro get the app and upgrade the premium map for all the good stuff and just coffee.coop always available wtfpod.com if you get the wtf blend yeah get a little get a little on the back end on that one i'm gonna go in and see if i can get on the internet
Marc:Boomer lives!