Episode 478 - Annabelle Gurwitch
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuckle heads?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What the fuck will Barry Fins?
Marc:Fins?
Marc:Fins?
Marc:Fins?
Marc:Fins?
Marc:Fins?
Marc:And that sounded like it was skipping.
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Someone sent in what the fuckleheads.
Marc:Don't think I've said that.
Marc:And I took it.
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:I'm sitting here on my fucking cable.
Marc:Not my cable.
Marc:My Internet is out and I'm not freaking out.
Marc:It's just that whatever I'm saying right now has to be sent across the Internet to my producer, Brendan McDonald, and then mashed into the show that you're going to hear right now.
Marc:So there's a bit of panic because there's a three hour time difference and I don't know what's going on.
Marc:Occasionally, the Internet just goes out.
Marc:But I don't feel paralyzed.
Marc:I don't feel crippled in any way.
Marc:I don't feel like that this is a problem that I can't live with.
Marc:It happens occasionally.
Marc:But if fucking Time Warner doesn't pick up their goddamn phone, I am going to throw my phone through a fucking window just to spite them and me.
Marc:That's how I work.
Marc:I'm going to get angry at you.
Marc:I'm going to do something stupid enough to make me feel stupid.
Marc:That's the way it goes.
Marc:So hopefully this will work out.
Marc:Maybe it's just one of those temporary things.
Marc:I can't believe they're not picking up their phone.
Marc:You're on hold for fucking 20 minutes with bad music, with hope.
Marc:You start looking at your clock saying like, oh, I'm going to give them three more minutes.
Marc:I'm going to give them three more minutes.
Marc:And I start thinking...
Marc:Wait, if it's that busy, maybe it's a whole network problem.
Marc:That's the positive spin.
Marc:Isn't it nice what we choose to believe in in that moment?
Marc:Oh, there must be a lot of people calling because it's an area issue and they're working on it.
Marc:That's the hope I'm going to glean.
Marc:All I know is it better fucking be on.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:This is Brendan texting me.
Marc:Okay, yeah.
Marc:He says, from New York, speculating on the information I gave him that he's sure there's a major outage in my area.
Marc:Thank you, Brendan, who has no idea what's going on here from New York placating me because Time Warner won't pick up their fucking phone.
Marc:We have other choices, Time Warner.
Marc:We have other choices.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Why am I getting sippy?
Marc:Because I'm drained.
Marc:I'm drained.
Marc:I've been running around.
Marc:I've been doing shit, man.
Marc:I've been trying to make a...
Marc:Make my lady happy and not always succeeding.
Marc:But that's life.
Marc:We're working through it.
Marc:We're doing it.
Marc:The woman I'm seeing right now, some call her moon.
Marc:She's into conflict resolution, not conflict.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Conflict resolution.
Marc:Do you know anything about this conflict resolution business?
Marc:She says things like you have to sit in the discomfort until we resolve the conflict.
Marc:Wait, I prefer yelling and making a mess of everything and then storming off like a child.
Marc:No, sit in the discomfort and conflict resolve.
Marc:So that's a new thing.
Marc:I've been experimenting, as I told you, maybe I didn't tell you, with instead of yelling, I cry now.
Marc:She enjoys that.
Marc:Crying is, you know, if that's what they want, I'll squirt out a few because I feel it.
Marc:I feel it.
Marc:She also has this habit where she texts me quotations.
Marc:She's very into quotations, uplifting quotations.
Marc:uh and spiritual quotations and quotations about everything love or whatever it helps her helps her feel better throughout the day uh reading quotations and then cutting and pasting them and sending it to me and we were in the middle of a very a fairly harried and chaotic emotional discussion i was a bit of a mess driving in the car freaking out picking her up some food and
Marc:And I was kind of losing my mind.
Marc:And in the middle of that, in the middle of a heated discussion that required emotions and focus, I was driving.
Marc:I was trying to balance glasses or cups of lemonade in the car.
Marc:And a lot was going on.
Marc:A lot of emotions were flying around.
Marc:And she texted a Play-Doh quote saying like this encapsulates exactly what's going on here.
Marc:Play-Doh.
Marc:I'm driving.
Marc:I'm emotionally discombobulated.
Marc:All right, I'm trying not to spill food and liquid in my car.
Marc:I'm in the middle of a heated texting discussion with a lot of emotions in the balance.
Marc:And she sends me a lengthy Plato quote to sort of sum things up.
Marc:Plato!
Marc:A quote that scholars have been working on for centuries to understand the nuances and depth of.
Marc:I'm driving now.
Marc:freaking out in chaos mind and spirit how about a little play-doh that should that should make you feel better here's a little play-doh maybe i should text you the cliff notes or some scholarly work on that section of play-doh hilarious
Marc:Did not, could not handle it.
Marc:Could not, could not.
Marc:I was trying to read it while I was driving and I could not absorb it.
Marc:It'll probably take me weeks to really get into that Plato quote.
Marc:But thank God everything leveled off.
Marc:Everything is okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I don't know if you know this, but when you're in a new relationship, it seems like it's just a long auditioning process for the last good man on earth.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Say, how did I do yesterday?
Marc:Did I get a call back?
Marc:Because I felt like I did a pretty good job.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:No, I didn't quite nail it.
Marc:But you're giving me... Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Good.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah, I'll be back tomorrow and I'll open my heart and I'll do the right things.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:See you tomorrow.
Marc:Okay, I did better today, right?
Marc:Oh, good, good.
Marc:So am I gonna, can I move on to the next level?
Marc:No, not yet?
Marc:Okay, okay, well, okay, so I'll, okay, tomorrow, you know, I'm gonna do something thoughtful tomorrow.
Marc:Oh, that got me bonus points.
Marc:Spectacular.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I am auditioning for the role of the last good man on earth.
Marc:And it's in there.
Marc:It's in there.
Marc:You know, I think most people are good, but I think whatever is, you know, dragging them through life, protecting them from their own feelings is what makes them a little dicey.
Marc:Fortunately for me and my relationship, we both have similar dogs guarding our hearts.
Marc:And yeah, I think they might get along.
Marc:Now you'd think that they just go at each other, but sometimes those dogs, those heart protecting dogs, they get along, man.
Marc:But I'm 50 years old.
Marc:Today, my guest is Annabelle.
Marc:Excuse me.
Marc:Annabelle Gurwitch, who wrote a book about.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Before I get into the book, before I got to find it, I think I see it over there on the floor.
Marc:I forget sometimes that I have gigs coming up.
Marc:I'm not doing a major tour until I get this new hour straight, but I am doing some gigs.
Marc:I am doing some clubs.
Marc:I figure by after I do like five or six of these workshop shows, I should be ready to roll out something for the peeps.
Marc:I'm using all the hip lingo right now.
Marc:So Friday, April 11th through Saturday, April 12th.
Marc:So Friday and Saturday, April 11th and 12th.
Marc:I'm making it up to you, Cleveland Hilarities.
Marc:I'll be there.
Marc:You can go to WTFPod.com or go to the Hilarities website and get the info for that.
Marc:Thursday, April 17th and Saturday through Saturday, April 19th.
Marc:I will be at Good Nights in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Marc:here's a big gig friday april 25th i'm doing a midnight show in austin texas at the moon tower comedy festival and on sunday may 18th i will be interviewing vince vaughn one-on-one in nashville tennessee for the wild west comedy festival you can go to wtfpod.com and get all that information and buy tickets and whatnot
Marc:I'm 50 years old, people.
Marc:50 fucking years old.
Marc:I'm not complaining.
Marc:Don't feel 50.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:I got some problems because you know what?
Marc:I have no children.
Marc:I got no children.
Marc:I've not had a successful marriage.
Marc:Neither one of my parents have passed away.
Marc:I am emotionally incapacitated in the fact that I don't know how to handle certain things because I haven't had the experience.
Marc:So on some levels, I'm like a 50 year old child.
Marc:I and I look at myself.
Marc:I know I'm getting older.
Marc:I know I can see it in my face.
Marc:I can see it in my nose.
Marc:I can see it in my body.
Marc:My body don't look bad, but don't look like it used to.
Marc:I can see it in my my genitals seem to be aging.
Marc:That's interesting when you notice that.
Marc:Take a good look at your genitals.
Marc:If you haven't looked at your cock in like 10 years, it's going to be surprising.
Marc:Get a little distance, look at your 50-year-old dick, and go like, oh my God, when did that happen?
Marc:Not that it's a bad thing.
Marc:It's just not the youthful dick you used to have.
Marc:But the great thing about the guest today, Annabelle Gurwitch, who I enjoy, who has been on this show before, but she was on with her husband, and quite frankly, that was a little annoying.
Marc:And they know that that they'd be the first to tell you that.
Marc:But Annabelle has written a book called I See You Made an Effort Compliments Indignities and Survival Stories from the Edge of 50.
Marc:It's a woman's voice.
Marc:And it's you know, it's it was it was sort of new to me.
Marc:Because as you know, I don't have children.
Marc:I've not had a successful marriage.
Marc:I've not spent time with a woman my age until recently.
Marc:And I enjoy talking about it because at some point I have to grow the fuck up and realize and take the hit that time has hit me with and act appropriately.
Marc:I have to understand.
Marc:I have to work on empathy.
Marc:Not everybody is naturally empathetic.
Marc:I started to realize that too because of the woman I'm with.
Marc:I'm capable of it, but sometimes you have to work on it.
Marc:It's not naturally given to everybody.
Marc:Look, I'm not complaining.
Marc:My parents did what they did.
Marc:And, you know, quite frankly, I have a hard time giving love.
Marc:I have a hard time accepting love.
Marc:Those muscles don't really work because I find it to be threatening and intimidating and possibly painful.
Marc:But empathy that I think the definition of empathy is is being able to to put yourself in the position emotionally of the person you're yelling at.
Marc:And perhaps stop yelling.
Marc:I mean, maybe maybe that's paraphrasing.
Marc:Maybe that's not the dictionary definition, but I think it's it's it's somewhere along the lines of being able to to to put yourself in someone else's shoes emotionally so you could experience or at least speculate, you know what they might be feeling.
Marc:And a lot of times I think I can do that.
Marc:But I think really what I do is I innately feel something.
Marc:If somebody is in pain, I feel that tangibly, like if they're sitting in front of me, if somebody is excited.
Marc:I mean, I connect with people very immediately and very directly as you witness from this podcast.
Marc:But that is an immediate feeling of emotion.
Marc:I'm not speculating.
Marc:I'm not sitting here wondering what they went through because they're telling me.
Marc:So I'm a good feeler.
Marc:I used to think I was more thinky, but I think I'm more of a feeler, and all the thinky is just to contextualize the feelings and try to get them into a box so they don't consume me.
Marc:Box your feelings so they do not consume you.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:How long have I been talking?
Marc:Is my internet on yet?
Marc:Would somebody please call Time Warner?
Marc:Could someone call Time Warner?
Marc:I've had it with them.
Marc:i'm putting my foot down time warner i'm about to go to some independent internet provider that'd be hilarious if they had those i imagine they have smaller ones but just like a guy you call hey buddy i'm done with time warner will you come put one of your boxes in while you got our boxes of feelings but we'll do it well that can i hook that up to my time capsule my apple time capsule
Marc:All right, let's talk to Annabelle Gurwitch.
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:What have you done today already?
Guest:Okay, what have I done?
Guest:Well, you know, the day starts like most days start now.
Guest:At 6 a.m., I suffer the abuse of a teenager who... Wow, is that plane flying into my garage?
Guest:It just went right into my head.
Marc:It's a helicopter For a change
Guest:How old's your kid?
Guest:He's 15.
Guest:And he's so cruel to me.
Guest:Yesterday, I forced him under duress to shoot a book video for me.
Guest:And as he's holding the camera, he says to me, Mom, you look just like Bubby.
Marc:Your grandma?
Marc:Whose mother?
Marc:Your mother?
Guest:My mother.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just, like, a piece of my soul just died right there.
Like, what?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm that old?
Guest:No.
Guest:And he said it with so much sincerity, too.
Guest:Like, it just, like, pierced my soul.
Yeah.
Marc:The fuck is that helicopter?
Guest:It's a drug bust.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The truth is, I actually have pot in the back of my car right now that I confiscated from a teenager.
Guest:They're after you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I confiscated... Okay, you can't call it pot.
Guest:It's weed.
Guest:Weed, man.
Guest:I confiscated the weed from my son.
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:Today?
Guest:Today?
Guest:No, it was actually, this is the embarrassing part.
Guest:It was like about a month ago and I wanted to get rid of it.
Guest:I was like so nervous about it.
Guest:Like I've never had pot in the house.
Guest:Anyway, so I put it in this little safe, this little portable safe.
Guest:And I thought I'll give it to a friend.
Guest:Who smokes weed.
Guest:Who smokes weed.
Guest:However, I have lost the key.
Guest:To that little safe, and so I'm driving around with this safe, with this weed in the car, and I'm thinking, okay, if I get stopped for like a- They'll have to open the safe.
Guest:They'll have to open the safe, but they can't open the safe, but what am I going to do with this thing?
Guest:Meanwhile, I drive the carpool, and none of the kids know that I've got this- Weed in a safe in your car.
Guest:Weed in a safe in a car.
Marc:What kind of safe?
Marc:Is it a toy safe?
Guest:It's like-
Marc:Okay.
Guest:See, I never really sort of figured this one out before.
Guest:Like, why do people have a safe that you could lift and steal if you're like a robber?
Guest:But you have to have the key or just like a really big hammer.
Marc:People can get anything.
Marc:They can do.
Guest:Why'd you buy this safe?
Guest:i was safe to put to put medications in it in our house because a couple like about a year ago because i'm thinking you know i hear that uh i hear that the teenagers these days go through people's you know medications people's house what kind of medications you have in your house that people would enjoy
Guest:Well, I have a Klonopin and Jeff has like Ativan for flying.
Guest:And I mean, I did a lot of Quaaludes as a teenager.
Marc:They're gone.
Guest:They're gone.
Guest:But I did look through people's, I looked through my friends' parents' medicine.
Marc:So it sounds like there's a healthy, trustworthy relationship between you and your 15-year-old son, which makes, it's heartwarming to know that.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You just can't, you can't win with a teenager.
Guest:All right, so let's go back to, he just,
Marc:He says, you look like your mother.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And it was filled with venom.
Marc:He knows that it was going to hurt you.
Guest:You know, the funny thing is, is he said it so sincerely.
Guest:That's what really hurt.
Guest:Because he says a lot of horrible things to me, which is what they're supposed to do.
Guest:You know, there's this psychological thing.
Guest:Well, no, that one wasn't okay.
Guest:The usual abuse of like, I hate you.
Guest:You're the worst mother in the world to me.
Guest:You get that?
Guest:Yes, when I hear that, I think, okay, I'm doing the right thing.
Guest:This is going right because you're supposed to hate your mother.
Guest:You're supposed to separate.
Guest:This is, psychologically speaking, within the norm.
Marc:But isn't that supposed to happen a little younger or is that the time?
Marc:15?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't have children.
Guest:I know.
Guest:So the problem is you get these books when you have kids, right?
Guest:And first of all, it's all a problem from the very beginning.
Guest:Because when you're pregnant, you're reading like what to do when you're pregnant.
Marc:Did any of those books help you?
Guest:No, because I didn't read them.
Guest:Well, the problem is you're always reading too late, right?
Guest:Because then you're reading all about pregnancy when you're pregnant.
Guest:You're already pregnant.
Guest:You really need to be a teenager because it's all like once the kid is born, it's like things go fast forward so quickly.
Guest:You never can catch up.
Guest:And now the teenage thing, I have like every book about, I have this book called like, I hate you, but will you please drive me and Cheryl to the mall?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I don't know.
Marc:That's a book?
Guest:Yeah, it's a book.
Marc:But how much ultimately is...
Guest:nature or nurture well it's just instinctual in terms of how you were brought up and in your certain things i imagine you don't want to repeat there's nothing instinctual about knowing how much time a kid should spend on the internet that is not in our dna yet maybe no but i mean but in terms of the emotional behavior oh i don't know you know it's so it's really confusing did you have any good times with this child
Marc:with this child yes when he's sleeping it's great no but i mean because i'm sick and then i get to like massage my brother has kids so i don't have any right so so my my proximity to them is limited and my approach to them is not based in any sort of experience but from what i can tell right there are good periods and bad periods and you just accept them if they're if they're reasonable yeah i mean you can't your kid's not going to like you all the time right right and there's going to be a long stretch of time where they're like fuck you
Guest:No, it's true.
Guest:I mean, look, you know, the whole having kid thing is like they've just done all these recent research saying, you know, if you're having kid to be happier, don't because it doesn't make you.
Marc:I believe me.
Marc:I know that from observation.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:But but the thing is, is, you know, you know, I you feel like, you know, by doing it, you're part of like the human experience.
Marc:We sort of have to do it.
Marc:I mean, some people are driven to do it and it makes sense.
Marc:It's not weird.
Guest:I was never that person, you know, who was Jeff?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Jeff was a little bit more, but I woke up one day and that biological clock thing was ticking.
Guest:But then I'll tell you, so there have been good times.
Guest:But the thing is, at this point, the pleasure comes in watching this person grow.
Guest:Not with you, not that they share it with you, but anything that happens for him that is good or that has seeds of being good in the future is really heartwarming.
Guest:You know, you don't share that experience with them because they don't want anything to do with you.
Guest:But I take pleasure.
Guest:pleasure i'm not going to say happiness but i take i take pleasure in it the really weird thing though is like so i'm 52 now which is just like a really weird thing to to to be right that's what the book is about that is what the book got but when i when this is something you don't have to go through but when the thing happened when the end of fertility happened it wasn't like i wanted to have more kids but the idea that i couldn't
Guest:That something, you know, that is a reality.
Guest:Time's up.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That is like a really, that is a finality.
Guest:And that is, that's big.
Guest:That is a really big thing for women.
Guest:You cannot underestimate this when it happens.
Guest:And it is, it's huge.
Marc:Are we talking about menopause?
Guest:I'm talking, yeah, that's.
Marc:Is that what, is that?
Guest:I just said thing because, you know.
Guest:But is that what it is?
Marc:Is that what we're talking about?
Guest:Yeah, we are.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, let me, let me get back to something that was pleasant.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Pleasant.
Guest:Pleasant.
Marc:So I think what you said was interesting about observing a kid who's going through this stage where, and I know that as a kid and having those feelings sometimes myself, there's a belligerence to being a teenager.
Marc:But because, you know, this is your child and you understand all his complexities and vulnerabilities that, you know, when he's fighting through something or having an experience, even though, you know, you can't say like, that really made me feel good that you did that because he'll just go like, leave me alone, ma.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that connection is so deep that you can feel the gratification and the joy of that struggle or that amazing thing.
Guest:Yeah, and then there are these moments.
Guest:Okay, so I took him to see his first Chekhov play.
Guest:And so the first part, he's a little bit – it's Ivanov, right?
Guest:The first part, he's a little bit restless and everything.
Guest:And by the end, he's streaming with tears.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, yes, I have successfully depressed my kid.
Guest:I have shown him the horrible existential nature and how just pointless it all is.
Marc:But is that what you did?
Marc:Or did you?
Guest:I took him there.
Guest:I took him there.
Marc:No, you took him to therapy.
Marc:theater yes i did and you're you were curious as to whether or not theater would have an effect on your 15 year old child yes and the power of theater delivered the message of the play you chose so i mean don't minimize it by by dragging it into some like it wasn't an existential point you were trying to uh you know broaden your child's horizons
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, but the thing is, you know, I've taken him to see a lot of theater and usually.
Guest:And so that one was like a particular one.
Guest:Like he came to see me in a play and he was like, yeah, it is pretty good.
Guest:Mom.
Marc:Was he right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:But because then like the next year I took him to see this David Mamet play, American Buffalo.
Guest:And he's like, Mom, within the first five minutes, this play is so much better than the play.
Marc:I saw the lead.
Guest:i don't i don't remember it was just a local production no it was it was the geffen it was really good i just i cannot that place like my short-term memory the pace of that thing is just and they say it's full of cock it's full on boy play oh yeah no i knew he'd love it like i'm a little sick of that play but now it was it was great and i mean but and for him i wanted him to see it i just this is the one thing you can do as a parent right now is take him places expose him right did you grow up in you grew up in new york right
Guest:I grew up actually all over in Alabama and Delaware.
Marc:But you're making choices to broaden your son's horizons into the interests that you found intellectually nourishing for you.
Guest:Well, no, no.
Guest:I'm making choices to broaden my son's horizons in the only one single fucking thing I know about.
Guest:It's just my, if I knew about other things, I could expose him to other things.
Guest:This is the one thing I got.
Marc:What, theater?
Guest:Yes, that's it.
Marc:What about the paintings and the things?
Guest:Well, yeah, okay, sure.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:The arts in general.
Marc:The arts in general.
Marc:Read this poem.
Marc:Does it do anything?
Marc:Any of that?
Guest:At this point in time, I can barely get that kind of thing in there.
Guest:But I can sort of get him to come out with me if there's no concert that night, if nobody's around.
Guest:I mean, there's like a window of things.
Guest:Is he driving that?
Guest:He's not driving.
Guest:It's really strange.
Guest:Teenagers don't seem to want to drive as much.
Guest:I mean, this is one of the products of this.
Marc:Thank God.
Guest:Well, that's true, except.
Marc:There's no public transportation here.
Guest:Well, it's not just that.
Guest:It's that they're texting each other and they're on the Internet.
Guest:And, you know, they call this generation the shallows.
Guest:They do?
Guest:Well.
Guest:I read that.
Guest:I don't think I made that up.
Guest:I wish I had made that up.
Guest:But like the millennials are also called the shallows because their relationships are primarily flat.
Guest:They're online.
Guest:And this is, I mean, it's really sad.
Guest:I mean, he takes public transportation.
Guest:I wish he wanted to drive because also it would give us leverage to try to get him to do other things.
Guest:It's all about the bargaining.
Guest:It's all about the bribery.
Guest:This is what it's come to.
Guest:What do you mean leverage?
Guest:Well, okay, leverage.
Guest:Like, if you do this, we will get you your driver's license and you can drive.
Guest:But no, he doesn't want it enough.
Guest:It's hard to figure out what they want right now.
Marc:It'll become clear.
Guest:I would hope so.
Marc:All right, so this book, I see you made an effort, Compliments Indignities and Survival Stories.
Guest:It's a long title.
Marc:From the Edge of 50.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:By Annabelle Gurwitch.
Guest:Since 1961.
Guest:I actually put that on my business cards.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm since 1963.
Guest:I'm older than you.
Marc:A couple years.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It just is a weird.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's get back to this moment where you realize that it's over on the ovarian level.
Guest:See, the thing is, the ovarian level is just one of those things that are over.
Guest:I mean, I don't want to bring you down here.
Marc:Why'd you write the book?
Marc:What was your concern?
Marc:You're an activated progressive person.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I imagine you feel like, you know, come on, ladies.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay, first of all, it is not just about the ladies, although there are pink granny panties on the cover.
Guest:And let me just say, that was not what I picked.
Guest:No, I know how that works.
Guest:You know how that works.
Guest:They want to sell a book.
Guest:Usually it's like little animals.
Guest:They try to put little animals on there.
Marc:Something to grab the eye.
Guest:I don't know, bears.
Marc:From what I understand, bookstores don't even function as any more than a showroom for people to go to, see what they like, then go order online.
Guest:You know, I love bookstores.
Marc:Yeah, I do, too.
Guest:But let's get back to this.
Guest:Okay, so the thing was, I did not intend to write a book about aging.
Guest:This was not what happened.
Guest:What happened was I was writing a series of essays, and I thought they were just unconnected.
Guest:And the first one in the book was actually this story about taking my son to this concert.
Marc:What concert?
Guest:It was this private concert for a band that I'm a little obsessed with now.
Guest:I'm a little embarrassed.
Guest:It's Titus Andronicus.
Marc:I have him in here.
Guest:I saw that.
Guest:I saw Patrick Stickles.
Guest:I kind of have this crush on Patrick Stickles.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, all right.
Guest:Because I don't know him.
Marc:Did you listen to the interview?
Guest:No, not yet.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Am I going to not have a crush on him?
Marc:No, I'm sure you'll adore him.
Marc:He's a very conflicted, bipolar artist.
Guest:Oh, great.
Marc:It might be perfect for you.
Guest:Let me just say, it's the image.
Marc:Very earnest dude.
Guest:Here's what happened.
Marc:How did this happen?
Guest:So this friend of mine has this daughter, because some of these teenagers are very ambitious.
Guest:She's got this web show, and they invite bands.
Guest:And it's Titus Andronicus.
Guest:And so I scored this invitation.
Guest:I'm like, oh, my son's going to like it.
Marc:Did he know the band?
Guest:No, he didn't know the band.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Did you then or did you go research after that?
Guest:I didn't know the band, but I knew that it was a play by Shakespeare, which I had forgotten at that moment, is of course the one where the Queen of the Goths eats her sons in a pie, which is just all too Freudian.
Guest:It's not good.
Guest:Anyway, so I take them to this concert thinking, I'm going to be this cool mom.
Guest:This is a way for us to get together.
Guest:And they're shooting this thing.
Guest:And while we're at the concert...
Guest:I started to really like the music.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is punk.
Marc:Straight up punk rock.
Guest:It's really, really great.
Guest:And the song he was playing was this one where he mixed Civil War letters.
Marc:From the monitor?
Guest:Yes, from the monitor.
Guest:And I was like, oh, this is kind of really cool.
Guest:And so I started to move closer.
Guest:And this arm grabs me and says, oh, no, we can't be on camera.
Guest:That's another one of the dads.
Guest:I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:Oh my God, like a leper?
Guest:I have to be quarantined?
Guest:I cannot be seen?
Guest:I'm too old to be photographed?
Guest:And then it was like one after another.
Guest:These things hit me and I see all the teenagers and it's like their skin is glowing.
Guest:It's like they've got cleat lights on them.
Guest:They're like lit up and we're cowering parents in the background.
Guest:And then I realized the band, Patrick starts talking to them, talking about war and things he's read on blogs about wars and...
Guest:He's telling them they can change the world one day.
Guest:And I realized he's not even looking at us.
Guest:Why?
Guest:We don't exist.
Guest:We are invisible.
Guest:We are the past.
Guest:You failed.
Guest:It was like a camera was moving back and we were receding in the distance.
Guest:And I realized how...
Guest:invisible we were and how i would not be seen by these people by these young people or known by these young people unless i was in the company of a young person how how or in a place of authority as a teacher or in a place of authority or driving a car with other kids in it
Guest:Well, no, they don't see you.
Guest:You're just like this lump, right?
Guest:But so I realized that how I was becoming so invisible.
Guest:Of course, unless you're Betty White, because the world always has one old person.
Guest:One that they just love.
Marc:As long as they keep it together.
Marc:Just one.
Guest:Just one.
Guest:You can't have more than one.
Marc:You're not that age yet.
Guest:Well, no, but you know, you can see the future in that moment.
Guest:In that moment at that concert, I saw the future and I just saw it in a flash.
Guest:So then, so there's other stories.
Guest:So my computer's not working.
Guest:I go to the Apple Genius Bar and I...
Guest:fall madly in crush with my Apple genius.
Guest:How old is he?
Guest:Autumn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the season.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:He was 24, 26.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I, of course, realized I was manly in lust or love with him because he could fix my computer.
Guest:And that is the attribute that I find really sexually a turn on.
Guest:Did you tell Jeff about this?
Guest:No, I did not tell Jeff about this.
Marc:But you wrote it in the book.
Marc:I wrote it in the book.
Marc:Did Jeff go like, when was this happening?
Guest:Jeff doesn't read this stuff.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No need to.
Marc:So this is a secret.
Marc:This is a secret.
Marc:I tried that once.
Marc:Eventually they read it, you know.
Guest:You know, I don't know.
Guest:He's so sick of me these days.
Guest:I don't know if he's reading this.
Guest:But then there was a whole thing about like, okay, this sexual fantasy.
Guest:Then I'm like, well, where could we go at our house?
Guest:No, because there's...
Guest:There's tweezers under my pillow and spanks at the edge of the bed.
Guest:And there's a drawing by my son.
Guest:I can't go to a cheap hotel because I'm too old for it.
Guest:It's going to be a nice hotel, but I don't have the money.
Guest:It was like all these things.
Guest:I just realized it's never going to happen.
Marc:You can't do anything publicly where you're not going to be seen and someone's going to tweet about it.
Guest:There's nothing.
Guest:nothing left for this plus meanwhile what am i going to talk to him about i can't talk to this kid about anything is it about talking at that point well clearly talking is out drinking is in i'd have to be drinking and plus i mean what if i was like a hotel with him right if we were going to order room service i'd have to take out my reading glasses i mean just all the sort of age related things so anyway this the whole point of this story i hope you just went home and masturbated like a grown-up
Guest:Well, of course I did.
Guest:But actually, the whole thing came to a head when I just realized, of course, you know, I'm nothing to Autumn again.
Guest:Like, he's not thinking about me.
Guest:I'm thinking about him.
Guest:I'm thinking about me.
Guest:You don't know that.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:I've actually heard the Apple geniuses get a lot of pussy.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You can look at it online.
Guest:When you go online, do this.
Guest:Go online and put like when you reviews of the Apple stores, people write about like where the cute geniuses are.
Guest:And apparently there's this thing between people, women.
Guest:Because there's a thing about Trader Joe's baggers versus Apple geniuses.
Guest:Who's cuter?
Guest:Who you can get to fuck you easier?
Guest:It's like a whole hookup thing.
Guest:It's better than internet dating.
Guest:I'm telling you.
Guest:Women are on to this.
Marc:You're talking about married women.
Guest:I'm talking about older women.
Marc:Over like 35 to 50.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:Oh, not older than 50.
Guest:50 doesn't... Wait, what?
Guest:50 is the end?
Marc:35 to 60, 70, whatever.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:You don't have something to shoot for.
Guest:But, okay.
Marc:That's who they're going... They're praying.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:These suburban female predators are praying on these baggers of TJs and Apple geniuses.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's so true.
Guest:It's so true.
Guest:But so, okay.
Guest:The whole point of telling the story.
Marc:It's a different time.
Marc:It's a different time.
Marc:Telling the story.
Marc:He needs to be the tennis pro.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:The pool guy.
Guest:The tennis pro.
Guest:The tennis pro.
Guest:Sadly, my tennis pro is Stacey Cohen and I'm not hitting on Stacey.
Guest:So the whole thing was, was I started writing these stories and then I realized they were age related and I realized it was all about this moment where there was this sort of.
Guest:you know real finality and this so the theme of this book is actually that we're doing ourselves a huge disservice in this you know youth oriented culture you know 40 is a new 30 50 is 40 this is bullshit yeah i mean it's so not true first of all anyone who's 40 when you're 50 they know you're not 40 you are clearly old who the fuck who
Marc:you kidding is that true yes mark it is true because some of this to me seems to be about you know our generation specifically which is you know somewhat narcissistic you know somewhat not used to acknowledging age i think that we have trouble you know dressing for like we don't know how to be the age we are at that's exactly right you know i mean i mean for you know girls my who are my age
Guest:We grew up watching these Clairol commercials that said, you're not getting older, you're getting better.
Guest:Excuse me, you are getting older.
Marc:But there was also a very weird distinction when we were younger.
Marc:Our parents were our parents.
Marc:They didn't look like anything other than that.
Marc:Our grandparents were like, that's our grandparents.
Marc:I'm sure that still exists.
Marc:But at some point, there was this weird line blurring.
Guest:Casual Fridays did everybody in.
Marc:I think it's just the 60s, the boomer generation.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:There was this sort of a sense of entitlement and self-centeredness and cultural kind of relevance of the boomers that sort of changed everything.
Guest:Well, the great generation that came before that, the greatest generation, they kind of aspired to adulthood to the time when they put on suits.
Guest:We devolved.
Guest:It's like a de-evolution process.
Guest:But in particular-
Marc:Your grandfather used to go to the beach in long pants and black socks.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I've got a picture of my grandparents on Atlantic City Boardwalk, and they're wearing suits, ties.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's a holy... Now, I'm not saying... First of all, actually, that is one thing that I want to say is true.
Guest:As you get older, I think...
Guest:dressing better is actually a good thing.
Guest:It just... It actually... It helps with the aging.
Marc:Owning your age is a good thing.
Marc:Is that what you're trying to say?
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:I really think so.
Guest:Now, I mean, I do think we're in a little bit of sort of unknown territory of how it's supposed to be.
Guest:And this is not only psychological, it's biological.
Guest:So we're caught in this transitional generation.
Guest:So we're living longer, okay?
Guest:So that means...
Guest:that it would be natural that we would perhaps want to remain youthful.
Guest:And I'm not saying you shouldn't remain youthful and energetic and do all those things.
Marc:Look, I have a mother who I don't even know her real hair color.
Marc:Apparently, I learned that recently that she's had fake breasts since I was bar mitzvahed that I didn't know about.
Marc:And you didn't know that?
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:When she told me she was getting replaced-
Marc:it was jarring she had like the original ones wow uh you know her you know she's very shameless about about botox and and and that type of work and uh you know she wears uh should she be shameful no no no i mean but you know either there's some people that try and pull it over on you it's always been it was always a joke with my family that you know when she she for years wanted to be 27 that was the age that we had to leave her at and then she sort of moved it up occasionally and
Marc:And now she's very aware of her age, and I think she has grown up a bit.
Marc:But she always tells me, it's like, I just don't feel.
Marc:I don't feel any different.
Guest:Well, see, I don't feel that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, I don't.
Guest:See, actually, I do feel different.
Guest:I'm going to say I do feel different.
Guest:It is a strange thing.
Guest:Mentally?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:As that number 50 approached, I did.
Guest:It really freaked me out.
Guest:And even to say it out loud sometimes is really weird.
Guest:But I'm doing that because I found that I think it's empowering.
Guest:I think when you're running from something, you know, it's a Freudian thing.
Marc:Are you running or are you just?
Marc:I think people are running from it.
Guest:I think people are running from it.
Guest:And there's a good reason they're running from it.
Guest:First of all, if you're unemployed and you're older, it's harder to get a job.
Guest:It's harder to keep your job.
Guest:People over 50 stay unemployed longer.
Guest:In the United States, the long-term unemployed are older.
Guest:I mean, there's a lot of serious issues.
Guest:But the thing is, there are serious issues.
Guest:I mean, at this age, first of all,
Guest:Our parents are declining.
Guest:I don't know about your parents.
Guest:My parents are declining.
Marc:They're both still alive.
Guest:They're both still alive.
Guest:Jeff's dad died last year.
Guest:But my parents are, you know, we had to sell the house.
Guest:There's health issues.
Guest:I mean, there's real things you have to face.
Guest:I mean, I have a lot of friends who've lost their parents at this time.
Guest:Everybody I know.
Guest:It's like every weekend I try to get together with someone, someone's father's, their mother's, all these different things.
Guest:But these are just realities.
Guest:right but this is but particularly at this period of time in your life is this moment i mean not only that but there are other issues to me besides my own health issues some things have caught up with me some genetic predispositions have absolutely caught up with me like eating i can't eat that much anymore because i'm 52 i just can't eat stuff without it's like i feel like i've got this like like a sweater tied around my waist but those are like practical things but those are but those are
Marc:I know, but I think it's interesting is that, because I haven't had to process that, and I know it's coming, the food thing I've always had.
Marc:I'm always crazy about that.
Marc:But the idea that people pass it, that when I turned 50, I didn't make a big deal out of it, but recently I've been like,
Marc:I feel okay with it in the sense that I now have a certain amount of wisdom.
Marc:I now have a certain amount of experience.
Marc:I now feel like there are a lot of things that aren't important to me like they used to be.
Marc:And there are new things coming, which you're telling me about.
Marc:I know that eventually my parents are going to get ill or I'm probably going to have to
Guest:to bury my parents and but these are life things do you think it's harder for this generation of grown-ups to to deal with this stuff or well i think that we were stuck in this you know always young moment and i mean so when things when real things hit and i think at this time in your life i mean okay so uh so when i hit 50 i got arthritis in my hands like what the fuck i mean what what
Guest:first okay this is so embarrassing right i was putting together this trampoline for my son and his friends right and i first of all i love power tools i am like super you know like i'm like that person right i'm always my power tools do this thing afterwards i'm in so much pain and i you know for two days but it goes away but i notice on my hands i have these like bumps and
Guest:Okay, so I thought I had warts.
Guest:So I was putting these like preparation, like these, like, I don't know what that preparation is, something, whatever, not going away.
Guest:I look on the internet and, you know, when you're this age and you look on the internet at things, this is very Dr. Google.
Guest:Always bad.
Guest:So it said that I had, it was possibly this thing called Hebertin's nodes, right?
Guest:So, which is a form of osteoarthritis.
Guest:So I go in to see a rheumatologist.
Guest:And it's just, first of all, you make an appointment with a rheumatologist, you're going to feel old.
Guest:I mean, there's just no way to get around it.
Guest:You hear that word.
Guest:I'm like, me?
Guest:I go there and he says, oh, you're my youngest patient.
Guest:I'm like, thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Just kill me right now.
Guest:And he says, oh, yes.
Guest:Actually, you've correctly diagnosed it, but we don't call that Heberton's nose.
Guest:We just call it by the colloquial terms, old lady hands.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I'm like, you know, that was like, what?
Guest:And I remembered my grandmother had it.
Guest:But she was raised in the depression, so she never complained, leaving me completely unprepared for this thing.
Guest:It's a genetic thing.
Guest:This is like it just caught up with me.
Guest:I mean, so there are things like that.
Guest:And that's one of the things I write about in the book.
Guest:But there's a whole other issue that I write about that I never –
Guest:I've never written about before, which is about class and about class hierarchy and about that moment when you realize that you you just may be where you are.
Guest:Like you, you know, you may not be getting somewhere, going somewhere.
Guest:I had this realization.
Marc:It's an important realization to make.
Marc:And I have to say that there's part of me, you know, having made that realization a few years back, but there's part of me that says in my mind, like, oh, well, congratulations, you're growing up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:At 50.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Oh, fuck you.
Guest:No, the truth is, why wasn't it at 40?
Guest:Because at 40, we're still younger.
Guest:And at 40, I was making so much more money.
Guest:Let me just say that.
Guest:It's true, you know?
Marc:All right, so go on.
Marc:The Beverly Wilshire.
Guest:Okay, so I'm at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel.
Guest:And, you know, you're a comedian.
Guest:You're hosting an event there.
Guest:You go to these places, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I realized when I was going there...
Guest:that I don't pay for my stays in hotels like that.
Guest:I only stay in hotels like that when other people are paying.
Guest:But there are people who are staying there who are even younger than me who are paying to stay there.
Guest:And don't even think twice about it.
Marc:It's not like, where am I going to stay?
Marc:Can I afford that?
Marc:No, it's just.
Marc:We'll stay at the Beverly Wiltshire.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I just, I had this, oh my God, when I was younger, you had this realization.
Guest:I don't know if you feel this as a man, but that your youth and a certain amount of beauty, in my case, I consider it more just style.
Guest:I really knew how to work it.
Guest:I wouldn't say it was beautiful, but I had a thing.
Marc:I had a thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it gives you entree into all these places.
Guest:Charm.
Guest:Charm.
Guest:And you pass in and out of all kinds of places of class.
Guest:And suddenly you realize, oh, I'm visiting my friends at their vacation homes.
Guest:I don't even own my one home.
Guest:It's mortgage.
Guest:I mean, it's like, wait, there's a whole other world that I, when I was younger, I thought of as like the grown-up world.
Guest:You're going to get there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the funny thing is, is I wasn't even trying to get there.
Guest:I just, I guess I assumed I would always be able to go in and out of these places.
Guest:And then it hit me.
Guest:Well, no, no, I'm a visitor in these places.
Guest:And you I think those are the kind of realizations that are.
Guest:You know, it's in a way, I mean, when it first hit me, I was like, oh, wow.
Guest:But then it can be freeing because I just said, you know what?
Guest:I just I am who I am.
Guest:I'm not becoming anything anymore.
Guest:I just me doing my thing.
Guest:And I've sort of it allowed me by by facing it.
Guest:It allow I feel like this, you know, saying this age, realizing these things, it has it has freed me up.
Marc:Well, of course, because I think a lot of times when you stay in that other mindset, you really miss a lot of your life.
Guest:Well, you have so much anxiety about getting somewhere.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But not just anxiety, but you no longer... A lot of people say you should enjoy the process or the process is where it's at.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But when you're trying to move towards something, even if it's not as conscious as organized ambition, there's part of you that never thinks what you have is any good.
Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're denying your reality at all times.
Marc:All of it.
Marc:The joy of it, the struggle of it, all of it.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Because you're not where you need to be.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I mean, okay, maybe it's like, maybe everybody else has done this and I haven't.
Guest:But I think that this is also a product of the youth culture, of staying young, forever young, stay forever young.
Guest:I mean, I think that's part of that is a denial of certain realities.
Guest:I mean, I think that's part of the hallmark of the...
Marc:but there's a humiliation to it if you if you don't acknowledge that i don't i do not think that i think there's a difference between humiliation and humility but depending on you know how deluded you remain is really gonna really gonna sort of um reveal how humiliating it can be i i find it very endearing you know as i get older and i realize i'm getting older and i accept it and i'm i'm on the cusp you know i find myself in a lot of
Marc:situations with younger people.
Marc:My audiences are younger people.
Marc:I'm thankful that somehow or another that my emotional terrain runs from age 13 to 70 in specific people, that there is a timelessness to my particular neurosis.
Marc:But I think that
Guest:Oh, isn't that great?
Marc:It is.
Guest:The timelessness.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:That's amazing realization to have.
Marc:Well, existential struggle is what it is.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:It's true.
Guest:So this struggle that you're talking about is- I'm waiting for my son to read The Stranger and call me and tell me what he thinks.
Marc:I don't even know if I got that the first time.
Marc:I never got the real existential things that I needed to get.
Marc:But what I'm saying is that as I started dating someone who's in my age bracket, and it's spectacular.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was never that organized around dating younger women or whatever, but there is a strength to it if you accept it.
Marc:And it's okay.
Marc:And you're not supposed to be running around with a bunch of kids.
Marc:It's almost like you're setting yourself up.
Marc:for feeling insecure or comparing yourself, at some point you should say like, well, good luck with that.
Marc:This is what happened to me.
Marc:And I hope you have a good time.
Marc:Is there anything I can do to help?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, it's funny because I remember when I was growing up and I always had someone who was a little bit older in my life.
Guest:I had this opera singing teacher who basically, first of all, I had a terrible voice.
Guest:I couldn't sing at all.
Guest:And I'm sure she never mentioned it because what she would do is I was in high school and actually junior high as well.
Guest:She would serve us schnapps and she would tell me the stories.
Marc:That's a great adult role model.
Marc:It's fantastic.
Guest:But I realize now I am that for people now.
Guest:That's an important reason.
Guest:It's an important role.
Guest:Like I speak whenever I speak or speak at colleges or something and people like they come to L.A.
Guest:I feed them.
Guest:They work for me.
Guest:And at first I thought, oh, I'm just like they're with me and I know them.
Guest:And I'm there.
Guest:I'm their older friend.
Marc:And more than that, you're you're you're an example.
Marc:And, you know, I think that, you know, given the type of work you do and the concerns that you have and what you're active about, you're a good example.
Marc:And that's, no, but seriously.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, if you're instigating and sort of inspiring people to think along the lines that you think are important and are righteous, it's an important thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:younger people some sense of self-awareness that that what they're going through is not unique or or or isolating i mean these are you know you got to accept your role yeah it's true you know except with my kid which is just a disaster or everything yeah that's that's your kid doesn't want it and he's always going to be stand up again you know eventually i think they if something doesn't go horribly wrong they learn to appreciate you
Guest:Oh, God, I hope so.
Guest:You know, I mean, you know, you hope so.
Guest:I'm like, I'm always thinking like 30 years, if I can just live 30 years, I will just, it will all come back.
Guest:But that is, that is this weird thing.
Guest:And this is another thing that makes our generation different.
Guest:So when my mother turned 50, I was...
Guest:in college.
Guest:So I didn't see her go through this.
Guest:This is also part of the problem with what we're going through now, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My mother was a grandmother.
Guest:My sister had kids by then, right?
Guest:I'm 50.
Guest:I got a teenager living at home.
Guest:My grandmother was 50.
Guest:She had one foot in the grave already.
Guest:That foot had diabetes.
Guest:I mean, it was a completely different, I mean,
Guest:It was like that she had like the stockings that were rolled down.
Guest:I mean, this is going into a new place.
Guest:So we're trying to figure this out.
Marc:But I also think that what we're talking about is relatively class specific that that that people, you know, within your class.
Marc:I mean, not not the people that, you know, you're visiting at their summer homes.
Marc:But, you know, we are a generation of those of us who who decided to do what we wanted to do as opposed to do what we had to do.
Guest:Very baby boomer.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That, you know, the whole idea of, you know, I got things to do.
Marc:I don't want to have kids yet.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that, you know, the repercussions of that are what they are.
Marc:I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with being an older parent, but there is something to be said about, you know, I criticize my parents for sort of just blindly having children because they thought they had to in their 20s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then it makes sense.
Marc:There is a continuity there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, look, this is where biology, psychology, they don't really mix.
Guest:I mean, biologically speaking, you're supposed to have kids when you're that young.
Guest:Okay, when you're that young, you have the energy for it.
Guest:You know, when you're this age, I'm going through this hormone stuff, and all my kid is going through this hormone.
Guest:It's like clash of hormones.
Guest:he's got too many i don't have enough i mean it's it wasn't like that before i mean just in just in in the terms of evolutionary terms right so we're going into a new territory i mean just in the evolution of our society that's just there's still plenty of people that have kids younger it's true all over the world most i think probably still
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Now, the thing is, though, in every first world country, people are waiting longer.
Guest:So this is the trend that humanity is heading towards.
Guest:By the way, this is not a social research book, but it is true.
Guest:I mean, this is what I do like to do.
Guest:I do like to try to find comedy in these things that are in the zeitgeist.
Guest:I mean, if it was just about my life, I would be a little bit sad.
Guest:I do think it is a whole cultural thing.
Marc:But in the arc of writing this book, I mean, what were some of the other things you were... Okay, so you dealt with the realities of parenting.
Marc:You deal with the realities of genetic... Predisposition.
Marc:Predisposition.
Guest:Towards aging.
Guest:I have a genetic predisposition towards aging.
Marc:But shit's going to happen.
Marc:That is true.
Marc:I can feel... The thing is that you will be humbled.
Marc:You know, if you live long enough.
Marc:Life is humbling.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And eventually, you know, you wonder like, well, what happens when I become fragile?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So, you know, here's the thing that I mean, here's one of the things if there's like something positive that I took from this moment.
Guest:You know, I and I read this book.
Guest:I have let go of a certain amount of perfectionism.
Guest:Which is like, that was definitely the whole, I just could not do things unless I was great at it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unless I thought I could really do something with it.
Guest:Like, you know, anything from math, monogamy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, anything that takes patience, I couldn't do, right?
Guest:So I've let myself take this moment to say, you know, just fuck it.
Marc:Try some stuff?
Guest:Yeah, I started, I mean, I play tennis like three times a week, and I'm not
Guest:good at it but i'm doing it anyway yeah i started a meditation practice i'm probably the worst meditator in the world i've had exactly one sort of like big thought and that one big thought was that it's something i realized after two years of meditation that i bought a house that you can hear the freeway from i didn't
Guest:know it for the last 15 years i've lived in this house and i never heard it i just never was like you know quiet enough to to hear that was that a positive meditation experience now that you become mindful of the freeway noise these people this is the thing people are like meditation so great
Guest:no, I really hate it.
Guest:I hate sitting down and doing it, but I know it's, it's, it's doing a good thing for me, but it's not like I like it and I'm good at it.
Guest:So, you know, these are some of the things I have, you know, realized, but there's, yeah.
Marc:What are your thoughts in, in, in terms of like being humbled by this and, and, uh, and recognizing it and, and seeking to be empowered through it, or at least have some acceptance around it, which that seems to be what you're doing.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, what do you find that the in your peer group?
Marc:What are the what are the biggest struggles about being a woman?
Marc:Because I imagine that you have friends who are single in this right now.
Marc:And we I mean, your heart's got to break a bit.
Marc:For just the cultural reality and the struggles that your peers are having.
Guest:Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
Guest:You know, I did an assisted suicide with somebody, which is something I never expected to do.
Marc:How does that happen?
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:Well, we are at this age where- No, I understand that, but what was the whole story?
Marc:Do you know who's this person in your life?
Guest:Yeah, she was a really good friend of mine, one of my best friends, and she had pancreatic cancer.
Guest:Now, when I was younger, I didn't know which was the good cancer or the bad cancer, but I am old enough to know now that pancreatic cancer is the no one gets out of your life cancer.
Guest:It's bad, yeah.
Guest:So, and which is so weird.
Guest:I mean, really and truly, I didn't, when I was young, you don't think about these things.
Guest:And when I met her, my friend Robin, she was a comedy producer at HBO.
Guest:So she, you know, there was a big decline and then she just couldn't take it anymore.
Guest:So she called her closest friends and we spent a weekend trying to kill her because it was harder than we thought.
Marc:How many people were involved?
Guest:There were one, two, three, four, five of us.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And so she reached out to you and presented.
Marc:How was that presented to you by her?
Guest:It was, well, let me tell you, you don't have to say the words, but we all knew.
Guest:I mean, it was all like, you know, she can't do it anymore.
Guest:This is going to be the weekend.
Guest:This is the right, this is, let's see.
Marc:And what was the plan?
Guest:The plan.
Guest:And the plan was to up all these different medications she had.
Guest:She had hospice at home, hospice worker.
Guest:You know, it's illegal.
Guest:Let me just say it's illegal in California.
Guest:So they just kind of retreat into the other room, right?
Guest:And we had all these, first of all.
Marc:So this happens.
Guest:So this happens, right?
Guest:So we're all there.
Guest:And first of all, it was this amazing moment.
Guest:Okay, so we get out this champagne and...
Guest:And she hadn't been eating or drinking.
Guest:She got out her glass, and she was like a wine person.
Guest:And we're all toasting her, and we're crying and laughing.
Guest:It was like the thing.
Guest:It was the circle of love.
Guest:It was the good death.
Guest:It was going to be the whole thing.
Guest:And then we start to up the medications.
Guest:There's a morphine drip.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a patch.
Guest:There's a patch.
Guest:There's suppositories.
Marc:Opium suppositories?
Guest:There's everything.
Guest:There's Oxycontin.
Guest:I mean, we could have made a fortune.
Guest:There's a lot of good drugs, right?
Guest:And she's conscious.
Guest:She's conscious.
Guest:But then what happens during that night, Mark, was that...
Guest:She was so happy that we were all there that she couldn't let go.
Guest:None of us have ever done this before.
Guest:So we...
Guest:We tuck her in.
Guest:We're like, this is great.
Guest:You know, we're ready to do the whole thing.
Guest:And she keeps rousing.
Guest:Every time she rouses, we hear her, like, we all go in.
Guest:We have a baby monitor on, right?
Marc:After you administered the medication.
Marc:Right.
Guest:We all go in.
Guest:And she's like, can you move me?
Guest:Okay, sure.
Guest:Whatever you need.
Guest:We move her around.
Guest:We tuck her in again.
Guest:We tell her we love her.
Guest:We do this whole thing.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:And then, you know, it gets later and later.
Guest:She's not going under.
Guest:We keep doing this.
Guest:And oh, and then stupid.
Guest:I had to wake her up because I realized we didn't have her computer password and we weren't going to be able to get into a computer.
Guest:And I said, Robin, don't die yet.
Guest:We don't have your computer password.
Guest:OK, get that over with.
Guest:It's like 2 a.m.
Guest:And she calls for us.
Guest:One of her friends and I go in and she says to us, I just, I just, I need some more interaction.
Guest:I need to walk around.
Guest:And we said, no, no, no, Robin, you can't get up.
Guest:And we tucked her in and we walked out of the room and we decided that we had to leave the house, that she was never going to be able to get into that, you know, deeper coma thing you're supposed to get into unless we would leave because it was too good all this being together.
Guest:So we left her.
Guest:And in the end, we didn't say goodbye.
Guest:In the end, we left her alone.
Guest:She was alone.
Guest:And she passed.
Guest:That was definitely something I did never realize.
Guest:I'm like, I'm not the bad guy.
Guest:Isn't that what I thought I'd ever be doing with her and doing in my lifetime?
Guest:I'm an actress.
Guest:I never even played a doctor on TV.
Guest:I played people who had panic attacks in hospital.
Guest:It was definitely beyond my life experience.
Guest:And how do you feel about it now?
Guest:Well, after it happened, I thought, why did I do that?
Guest:What was I thinking?
Guest:What did it look like?
Guest:Why did I think I could make that decision at that moment?
Marc:Well, there was a group of you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But at that moment, we made the decision.
Guest:We made the decision that it was time.
Guest:And I thought, oh, my God, it was selfish because I didn't think we could go on any longer.
Guest:We were just...
Guest:completely wrung out you know I mean just we were all of us were so emotionally drained and then and then I then I as time went on I felt better about it although anyway my husband Jeff he said to me like after like watching me really suffer he said you know I want you to know I really think you did the right thing but if I'm ever really sick I don't want to be alone in a hospital room with you
Guest:It was really, it was a moment.
Marc:Do you talk to the other people?
Guest:You know.
Marc:Has there been sort of some kind of grieving process?
Guest:We're all, some people live in different cities, but I think we all feel really, and when we do see each other, it's this thing, it's this incredible bond.
Guest:I'll always, that moment together was just,
Guest:you know a big and yeah i can't always be you know something that that holds us together all of us so the thing is you know one thing i forgot to say this was that you know that is something that is one of the reasons why i wrote this book was it was in a sense also this thing about about
Guest:I think when you're younger, I didn't realize this too, like how important my peers would be.
Guest:Sort of like this group of people that you go through life with.
Guest:And when, of course, you know, at a certain time in your life, and it's not like I don't have friends of different ages, and it's really good.
Guest:You have to have this mix.
Guest:But there is something, and if there's one thing good about Facebook...
Guest:You know, it really does reconnect you in a certain sense with people.
Guest:Not that I want to see what everyone has had for dinner that I went to high school with, but there's something about...
Guest:How you holding up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just sort of like checking in with people.
Guest:And this thing that your sort of tribe, your age, there's a power to it.
Guest:To community.
Guest:All those things that I just thought I hated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I, like many people of the narcissistic generation, I'm just, oh, my things are just so unique and individual.
Guest:And that was one of the reasons why I wrote this book was like, it's, you know, to share the experience.
Guest:And there are things that I write about that other people, women, there are some women things like the...
Guest:The dreaded dry vagina.
Guest:Yeah, it's a really scary thought.
Guest:I don't want to freak you out here.
Guest:But like that, I never heard about that thing.
Guest:There are things you can do, do a little bit.
Guest:But I've had some early readers say to me like, wow, I thought it was just me.
Guest:I thought there was something wrong.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But this is like...
Guest:Okay, I'm so embarrassed.
Guest:I'm like going to be a dry vagina lady.
Guest:Hey, your vagina is dry.
Guest:It happens, huh?
Guest:It happens.
Guest:Really crazy things happen and it's good to share them with other people.
Marc:On the plus side, you're still using your vagina.
Guest:Still here since 1961.
Guest:Actually, there was at one point I thought I would just get, I don't have any tattoos, but I thought I'd get like closed for repairs, under new management.
Guest:That's the only tattoo I was considering getting was putting like under new management right below my C-section scar.
Guest:I just thought, okay.
Guest:Things have changed.
Guest:Things are just a little bit different.
Guest:That's where your biology really can sort of be confounding and catch up with you no matter how you feel.
Marc:Well, let's talk about because he's not here and you can speak freely and not do that thing you two do.
Marc:I mean, what's it like to age with somebody?
Marc:I mean, your marriage is still intact, which is rare.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you joke a lot about this or that, but obviously you love each other and you're there for each other.
Marc:I mean, how has that changed?
Guest:I'll tell you something.
Guest:It doesn't make any sense.
Guest:Marriage doesn't make any sense.
Guest:Monogamy makes no sense whatsoever.
Guest:But at this point, you're going to tell me- Aging with someone.
Guest:Listen, just because I'm doing something doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
Marc:I never do what people- No, but in terms of being that you're speaking from a place- Yes.
Marc:That is rare.
Guest:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:That you are still married.
Guest:Yeah, today.
Marc:And, yeah, I know that's cute and everything.
Guest:I mean that in a real sense.
Guest:I have no idea what the future holds.
Guest:I mean, really.
Guest:I don't mean that in a – I mean, it's just – that's just – it's so crazy because –
Guest:aging in front of someone is a terrible mistake okay i mean first of all there is some comfort to be had and like you know having that's the thing is when you've been with someone for a really long time there are things that only that you share that are just it is very i mean there are things i know we'll laugh about things you're very comforting however it's sort of like uh
Guest:Someone who has seen you, it's sort of like, okay, I told Jeff like years ago that he was getting gray and he just didn't believe me.
Guest:I mean, I'm watching it happen.
Guest:Like you can see it happen and you have the memory of the past.
Guest:It's intense.
Guest:And then you know that like, hey, for instance, he always tells me I look great, right?
Guest:It occurred to me the other day, he might just be being kind or not have his reading glasses on.
Guest:I mean, it's not that I look necessarily so great.
Guest:It's sort of like, oh, that's it's both fantastic and comforting and terrible.
Guest:There's something terrible about witnessing.
Marc:I mean, but I understand that and terrible.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:I mean, look, but the terrible is your own projection.
Guest:No, I understand why, like, for instance, very successful, wealthy men would seek out younger partners.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:You can just suck the youth from their head.
Marc:They're all vampires.
Marc:Is that what you're saying?
Marc:They're vampires.
Guest:Yes, and it's fantastic.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Mark, then you have someone who hasn't seen your failures.
Marc:But wait.
Guest:There's something to be said for that.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:I've been the guy that's been with women 20 years younger than me.
Marc:And the one thing you always know, I mean, certainly it depends on how sensitive and how connected you need to be to another person, that there is the element of, yeah, there is the element of youth and there is the element of, but the other part of that is like, I'm old.
Marc:And, you know, I'm grateful, I guess, but I'm always going to be old here.
Marc:And if you do get emotionally invested in that situation, the possibility for, and I know it'd be hard for you to be sympathetic, but the possibility of a profound heartache, you know, at that age over something like that, it's horrible and it's ridiculous.
Marc:And I know that's usually not where the sympathy lies.
Marc:It's like, look at that sad old rich guy with a beautiful young woman.
Marc:I hope he doesn't get hurt.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That did not occur to me.
Guest:I have to say that didn't occur to me.
Guest:But there's something great and something terrible about it.
Guest:It's sort of like, okay, this is going to sound slight, but it was really intense.
Guest:So when Jeff and I wrote a book together, right, and we went on tour together.
Guest:there was something so terrible about, okay, you're on tour, and you know how you do things when you're traveling a lot, and you've got your own way of being, right?
Guest:And, okay, so, and things are, the road can sound a lot better than it is.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, we know this, right?
Guest:It's okay when you're alone sometimes.
Guest:The very first place we got to on the tour is,
Guest:it was like it was kafka-esque i mean it was it was his apartment there was like a a sheet slung over the window it was tiny it was dirty yeah not only that but we laid down on the bed we heard the key turn and someone walked in what kind of place was this it was one of those like you know like apartment rental but you know like and they had rented it out twice we were so tired because we had taken the red eye that we didn't even get out of bed we just said i think you're here on the wrong day it's like it
Guest:It was great.
Guest:But the place was so depressing and horrible.
Guest:Now, if I'd been alone, no one would have known how terrible it was.
Guest:I mean, it was dark.
Guest:It was dank.
Guest:Rusty.
Guest:You know, I could have just in my head, like, I'm not really here.
Guest:I'm not really here.
Guest:I'm only here for two days.
Guest:But somehow when I saw it in Jeff's eyes, how terrible it really was.
Guest:It was awful because we both witnessed each other in this terrible situation.
Guest:And in a sense, that's what sort of aging together can be like.
Marc:That's such a sort of mild example.
Guest:I'm giving you a mild example.
Guest:You make that like to the 10th power.
Marc:But I have to assume that in those moments, and I know Jeff a bit.
Marc:That that there has to be some gratitude that you're with this person.
Marc:There has to be some warmth there.
Marc:There is.
Guest:Some of it is in the abstract and when separated by many miles.
Guest:OK, you know, there absolutely is.
Guest:But it is also it's daunting.
Guest:And you do see why.
Guest:I mean, this is one of those things, though, that I really do feel about this moment in.
Guest:In your life, you know, you're sort of faced with a choice and you have to ask yourself things like, am I going to continue in a certain way or am I going to change?
Guest:Am I going to go on this way?
Guest:And I really don't know what the future will hold.
Guest:And I mean, like, I mean, I've said this and about my own psychology.
Guest:I'm someone who you just always took a lot of pleasure in suffering, just sort of my not just suffering.
Guest:And I don't do that.
Guest:Defined by complaining.
Guest:define not you know oh just in no even silence up you know even just you know just i can turn anything and suffer about it yeah sure you know and i i mean i always thought this is these people who go and find happiness in daily activities what's wrong with them and i'm kind of one of them now where do you think that came from though what do you think that was that fear
Guest:Where do you think that – because to me it's like – To me, part of it is this thing of like this anxiety of like, oh, trying to get to be someone else or be in this place in my life and status and all these things.
Guest:And by sort of accepting – it took me to this moment of really hitting this midlife thing to say, you know what?
Guest:I'm not becoming, I'm not going, I'm just me.
Guest:I may have middled out in my career.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:I'm making my peace with that.
Marc:Just to be yourself and be open and not be so hard on yourself, to have some vulnerability, to try new things.
Guest:Well, that's not so simple.
Marc:But ultimately, I know for me that if I'm being stifled by myself because I go, fuck that person, that can't do any good.
Marc:That person, that can't make that person happy.
Marc:Who would go to that dumb group thing?
Marc:Who would do this?
Marc:Who would do that?
Marc:And usually it's just sort of me being aggravated by like, well, then I got to go and there's going to be a person there and I got to do a thing.
Marc:And then once you're in it, you're like, I joined a choir.
Guest:I joined a choir, right?
Marc:That's sweet.
Guest:It's a non-denominational choir.
Guest:It's non-audition because no one wants to hear me sing.
Guest:I mean, it's just not even people in the choir that I can't sing.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:And it's fucking awesome.
Guest:It's like an injection of joy.
Guest:But I just wouldn't have done it in the past because I'm not a joiner.
Marc:But this is the saddest thing.
Marc:The sad thing about what we're talking about here is that, you know, we're a generation of people that were hobbled by our vanity is really what it is, is that, you know, we, you know, we're too cool for school.
Marc:We, you know, we had, we had big plans for ourselves.
Marc:We felt like we were entitled to these ideas taking, you know, actually happening, coming to fruition.
Marc:And, you know, it took us a long time to realize that life doesn't work like that.
Marc:And I might have missed some of these small things that could bring me a lot of very deep and human joy because, you know, it seems to me a vanity and ridiculous ambition that was based on fucking entitlement.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm just going to say yes.
Guest:I think that's all true.
Guest:And I also think it's not just that.
Guest:It's not just that kind of neurosis.
Guest:It's cultural.
Guest:It's the cultural message that you get to become.
Guest:something and status i mean this is this is not just individuals this is part of the american dream you know and i think that you know in terms of you know this age we're also a generation where some of us will never do as well as our parents i mean we're living in a different economic climate i mean there's there's there's other factors that work besides our own psychology there's messages that you get in the culture i mean it's not we don't we're not just living in a vacuum but yeah i
Marc:But I also think a lot of this is not necessarily leisure class, but middle class and upper middle class problems.
Marc:I mean, there are plenty of people that may have aspirations, but acknowledge their limitations earlier on and put a lot of stress on community, on choir, on deepening relationships with friends, because that's what life is made of.
Guest:Okay, that is true.
Marc:For some reason, we decided that our life was made out of like, I'm going to be the king of something.
Marc:I'm going to be the best at something.
Marc:I'm going to be recognized by everybody for what I do.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:That is true.
Guest:And I mean, also, one of the things that was driving me, and this is not a memoir.
Guest:I mean, this is a collection of essays.
Guest:And I just say that's
Guest:Because each story in the book is about a different aspect that I felt dealt with getting older, whether it was class, whether it was the way you look, the way your health, I mean, taking care of my parents, all these different, that's a sandwich generation issue when you've got kids at home and you're taking care of your parents.
Guest:But I do also write about just something that was driving me, which was poverty, poverty.
Guest:I mean, I had no money.
Guest:I had nothing.
Guest:And so it was just everything was driving me towards, you know, I had just desperate anxiety.
Marc:I think that's something that isn't talked about, not in this room that much, is that, you know, you and Jeff are in show business.
Marc:You know, Jeff was a writer on the original Ben Stiller Show and has sort of chipped away at getting writing jobs in entertainment.
Marc:You were involved as an actress and a host on television and as a writer.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And that I think that we are looked at as these immature people that built their lives on this ridiculous dream of show business.
Marc:But I think that both of you obviously have worked, but I never talk about that weird moment with a couple or with a parent or with people in this business where you're like, well, this shit's drying up and something hasn't locked in that would enable me to stash enough money to sort of ride out a while.
Marc:And I think that's a distressing and real thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I mean, you know, I mean, this goes back, you know, I mean, I grew up in a family where my dad was a gambler and still is.
Guest:And and then then there was no money.
Guest:There was no money in my 20s.
Guest:There was no money.
Guest:I dropped out of school.
Guest:I worked.
Guest:I passed out flyers on the street.
Guest:I had that.
Guest:You know the person that's pounding up flyers on the street?
Guest:That was my job.
Guest:It was a terrible job.
Marc:But what was your dad's job other than gambling?
Guest:Well, no, he had businesses.
Guest:He had art galleries.
Guest:There were tax-sheltered art galleries.
Guest:He had a fast food chain.
Guest:He had a restaurant.
Marc:He had a hustler.
Guest:He had a hustler.
Guest:He had softcore porn.
Guest:You name it.
Guest:He had all these different business.
Guest:He actually – he was roped in in the Abscam scandal because he and my mother went to a party to meet the Arab sheikh who they were told wanted to invest in the film industry.
Guest:And my mom said she knew something was wrong because they served Cheez Whiz on Ritz crackers as hors d'oeuvres.
Guest:I was like, these people don't have money.
Guest:I mean, this is –
Guest:This is my brain.
Guest:And then, you know, there'd be... So your mother knew.
Guest:My mother knew.
Guest:Sometimes my dad would have a Rolls Royce.
Guest:Sometimes he'd have a Chevy Nova.
Marc:So you grew up with a tremendous amount of chaos and inconsistency.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And then, I mean, for some crazy reason, my sister went to law school.
Guest:She became a banker.
Guest:My sister was very, like, she took the straight and narrow path.
Guest:I went into show business.
Guest:Big surprise from background like that.
Guest:But, I mean, I've always worked.
Guest:And I am just...
Guest:I'm just a really practical person.
Guest:And in this book, I also wrote about, you know, I mean, at this age, I also got a kid.
Guest:I got a mortgage.
Guest:I started doing jobs that I went back to making commercials, like just, you know, I mean, doing whatever I have to do.
Guest:I have to make a living.
Guest:I'm a working person, you know.
Guest:And that was very humbling.
Guest:I mean, not like commercials, like I'm doing the endorsement for AT&T.
Guest:I mean,
Guest:You know, I'm the woman shopping at Staples looking for the 20% off coupon, you know.
Guest:But I had this thing.
Guest:I mean, this happened at this age.
Guest:Maybe it should have happened earlier where I was like...
Guest:cares what I do for a living.
Guest:I got a kid, I got a house, whatever.
Guest:I mean, if I had other skills, believe me, I would do any, I mean, I just, it's very humbling.
Guest:And, you know, that kind of humility is actually, you know, it's not bad for the soul.
Guest:I've tried, I try on a daily basis, not to be identified, not with what I do, just to try to let go of that, because it was really killing me.
Guest:It was really
Guest:hurting my daily quality of life.
Guest:Because it made you feel like a failure.
Guest:I felt like a failure when I was starring on two TV series at the same time because I wasn't starring in a movie.
Guest:I always have managed to feel like a failure no matter what I was doing.
Guest:And so, you know, maybe that says more about me than anybody else, but this was my own personal battle.
Marc:No, I think a lot of people feel like that.
Guest:Well, because it's like, oh, you have to keep going.
Marc:But we were told that we, you know, along the same lines as, you know, us not making as much money as our parents made, there was also this idea that because of their wealth and success or their place in the world that we could do whatever we wanted.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's a bad message.
Marc:It kind of is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I try.
Marc:You can try to do whatever you want.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But at some point you have to be able to say like, well, I wanted this, but I don't think it's going to happen.
Guest:This is one.
Guest:And that is.
Marc:Knowing your limitation.
Marc:This is something my friend John Daniel told me early on.
Marc:So, you know, what he said, being a grown up is realizing your limitations.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This is one thing I do feel good about with my with our son, who's 15, is that I feel like, hey, we by by being midly having middle middled out, you know, we're not so successful that it's going to intimidate him.
Guest:He's like, he doesn't have to like worry about like doing better than us.
Marc:But it sounds like he's a good kid, aside from having weed occasionally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's engaging.
Guest:And I know there's a good brain in there.
Marc:But he hasn't gone bad.
Marc:He's not in trouble.
Guest:Is there a date that kids go bad?
Guest:Is there like an expiration?
Guest:Oh, look, they got to the thing and they go bad.
Guest:You know, I'm afraid to say anything out loud, Mark, because, you know, it's like saying it.
Marc:And you and Jeff are okay, despite whatever the bullshit thing you do all the time.
Guest:We're still here.
Guest:We're still here.
Guest:How's that?
Guest:We're still going.
Guest:Still going.
Guest:You know, that is something, you know, that endurance, fortitude.
Guest:There's no, you know, there's wedding announcements in newspapers.
Guest:The Huffington Post has a divorce column.
Guest:Where is the section of the paper that's called, like, still here?
Marc:Still at it.
Guest:Still at it.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Jeff and Annabelle overcame a major obstacle yesterday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just sharing a kitchen.
Marc:What to do with the weed they found.
Guest:My husband has no idea that it's in my car.
Guest:He has no idea that I've done this.
Marc:I think that's the more troubling thing.
Marc:In the safe that you no longer have the key of.
Guest:In the safe that I don't have the key of.
Guest:We should take a picture of that.
Guest:What am I going to do with this?
Guest:It's ridiculous.
Guest:But, you know, there is, you know, there's this thing.
Guest:I mean, Mark, you know, people get divorced.
Guest:Then they lose weight.
Guest:They go on diets.
Guest:They go on dates.
Guest:Even when the dates are bad, they're good stories.
Guest:I mean, it's a new beginning.
Guest:This is what's so hard as Americans.
Guest:I think it's a very American thing, you know, is like this.
Guest:We've lost this value of like endurance.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm not even saying it's a good value, but we have lost it.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:We value new.
Marc:Being proud of enduring.
Guest:Yeah, it's new.
Guest:I want that, you know, oh, my computer's not working.
Guest:I'm going to get a new one.
Guest:I'm tired of that.
Guest:Planned obsolescence.
Guest:exactly you know i mean it's it's i can't wait i'm i i'm the one saying i never intended to get married first of all i never intended to have kids it's all been a surprise for me it's been going on for a while now but it was a surprise i was raised by by a mother who was in this like feminist thing where she didn't do it but she told me i could you know be anything and she didn't raise me to be a wife and a mother and i mean that's not
Guest:Everything I am, but it is part of what I am.
Guest:It's been a big surprise.
Marc:So the uplifting message is what?
Guest:It's better than death.
Guest:Aging.
Guest:It's better than death.
Guest:How's that?
Guest:If you say it cheerfully enough.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:Given the alternative.
Guest:Given the alternative.
Guest:Getting old is okay.
Guest:You should just go for it.
Marc:Well, thank you for talking to me.
Guest:Oh, thanks for listening.
Marc:You all right?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I am.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I am.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop is available at WTFPod.com.
Marc:I'll give you one.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Just shit my head.
Marc:Pants.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:Boomer lives!
you