Episode 468 - Langhorne Slim
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What the philosophy fuckers?
Marc:You know, came up with that one.
Marc:Danny LaBelle came up with that one.
Marc:Danny LaBelle has a podcast called Modern Philosophers, I believe is the name of that podcast.
Marc:I am on it and I saw him plug me.
Marc:You know, okay, you what the philosophy fuckers.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:So, what's going on?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:I hope you're doing all right.
Marc:Are you all right?
Marc:I am in New York right now.
Marc:I will tell you that.
Marc:Though I'm not recording this in New York.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How do you like that?
Marc:I am... What is it?
Marc:Astral projecting right now.
Marc:Back to the garage from New York.
Marc:Today on the show is...
Marc:the singer songwriter i'd like to call him a folk singer because i think he is a folk singer laying horn slim is on the show laying horn slim and i go back a ways back in the day when i hosted a show on air america radio uh to avoid politics i used to have entertainers on and and whatnot and laying horn must have been 12 years old i did that's that's how i see it what was that like eight nine maybe almost 10 years ago
Marc:So Langhorne came on.
Marc:I think he had his one record out and he was a character then.
Marc:But now we are eight to 10 years wiser.
Marc:I am 50.
Marc:I'm not sure how old he is.
Marc:I believe I talked to him about it.
Marc:50 years old.
Marc:I am wiser.
Marc:But he's an earnest cat that sings heartfelt tunes.
Marc:I think that's the key to it, isn't it?
Marc:That's the key to folk song.
Marc:That's the key to art in general.
Marc:That's the key to it all.
Marc:Being an authentic motherfucker with an earnest approach and putting your heart in it.
Marc:50 years old i am i'm starting to realize i may have some wisdom i may have some not tooting my own horn but i may have some i'm starting to integrate the many different facets of my personality quite consciously i believe uh i could explain that to you i'm not going to become a folk singer though i think i'm i could lay out a couple of numbers i could i have a valentine i have a valentine in my life all right
Marc:I have an excited heart right now.
Marc:And that's part of the reason why I'm trying to integrate the facets of my personality.
Marc:I'm a 50-year-old man.
Marc:I'm relatively grounded at this point in my life.
Marc:I know I have some wisdom.
Marc:I know something has got me through these 50 years.
Marc:I know I've worn not so many different masks, but as a means to adapt and survive...
Marc:With a fragile sense of self, I think I manifested some personality dispositions.
Marc:I'm not saying they weren't true to me, but when you talk about authenticity, what are you getting at?
Marc:What are you getting at?
Marc:What's your delivery system?
Marc:Everybody's got a heart.
Marc:Everyone's got a soul.
Marc:If you believe in the soul thing and you're understanding the metaphor for heart, obviously we have hearts or organs that keep everything going.
Marc:But on the poetic level, heart and soul,
Marc:I think everyone's got it.
Marc:You may have limited access, but what are you pushing it through, man?
Marc:What are you pushing it through?
Marc:What part of you is pushing it out there?
Marc:Can you be just raw and real all the time?
Marc:I think I can, but it's very painful sometimes, very painful, and you might not want to do that.
Marc:Naturally, your brain's not going to want to do that.
Marc:Hey, dude, this is getting a little heavy.
Marc:Maybe it's time to put on your cowboy hat and not take any shit.
Marc:You know, maybe it's time to, hey, you got your asshole pants?
Marc:Because now it's time to put on the asshole pants because somebody just hurt your little heart and soul machine.
Marc:Or maybe you're excited and your heart and soul are soaring.
Marc:Perhaps it's time to wear the poet hat.
Marc:So you got the cowboy hat.
Marc:You got the asshole pants.
Marc:You got the poet scarf.
Marc:Let's make it a poet scarf.
Marc:And then you got your kid shoes.
Marc:That's what I decided just now.
Marc:I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if I've got a kid and I've got a cowboy and I've got an asshole and I've got a poet...
Marc:I know what they've yielded.
Marc:I know when the cowboy's done bad shit.
Marc:I know when the asshole's done bad shit.
Marc:And I know when the poet has gotten too sad.
Marc:And I know when the kid's gotten into trouble.
Marc:So if I can limit that activity by these different facets of my personality and choose to integrate them all into the 50-year-old vessel that I'm carrying now, then we got a complete fucking bit of business there.
Marc:No fraudulent elements, all integrated, because if those characters have gotten through, gotten me through large chunks of my life, they are necessity.
Marc:They are a survival team.
Marc:There's no reason we all can't hang out at the same time.
Marc:Boy, when I thought of this shit, I thought it was a fucking breakthrough, man.
Marc:I thought it was a breakthrough, you know?
Marc:Because sometimes the kid in me needs some support that's not necessarily anybody's job but my own.
Marc:And then I got these three other men in my vessel that can maybe help me raise this kid.
Marc:I got a cowboy, I got an asshole, and I got a poet.
Marc:Those seem like good daddies.
Marc:You know, if you take the good parts about him, sometimes you got to be an asshole.
Marc:Sometimes you got to be an asshole to the kid inside of you.
Marc:Because that kid's, you know, got to grow the fuck up.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Look out, it just shit my pants.
Marc:But I can honestly say that I'm speaking as Marc Maron right now.
Marc:Because I am currently integrating the kid, the cowboy, the asshole, and the poet.
Marc:We are a team.
Marc:We are not separate.
Marc:We are a team.
Marc:Do you understand me?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Do you?
Marc:My mother sent me her living will.
Marc:It's an awkward moment.
Marc:It's not an awkward moment.
Marc:It's a reasonable thing.
Marc:It's a smart thing to do.
Marc:But, you know, she sent me the living will and she named my brother the surrogate and me the second choice.
Marc:I was named the second choice to put my mother out of her misery if she no longer knew she was in misery.
Okay.
Marc:My brother's the first one.
Marc:My brother is the designated plug puller.
Marc:I'm second if my brother can't do it.
Marc:I don't know how to take that.
Marc:I mean, why am I not the go-to plug puller for my mommy?
Marc:Why in the moment where she no longer is capable of making decisions and is gone for all practical purposes and
Marc:And on her deathbed, did she decide in that moment, like, I want Craig to do it.
Marc:I don't want Mark to do this.
Marc:Is it because I'm too heavy hearted?
Marc:She didn't want to put me through it.
Marc:Is it because that perhaps she thought like, well, I don't know, Mark might want to string this along a little bit because he loves me so much.
Guest:Hmm.
Marc:Or maybe she just doesn't think I've got the muster for it.
Marc:I'm not going to get jealous of my brother.
Marc:It's not one of those things like, you know, why do you get to pull mommy's plug?
Marc:And I don't.
Marc:But, you know, it did make me ask, what was that decision?
Marc:Maybe she's giving me something else.
Marc:Maybe there's another gift where I'm first.
Marc:I don't get the privilege of putting her out of her misery.
Marc:That's my brother's gig.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Now that I talk about it out loud, I should just let it be.
Marc:I should just let it be.
Marc:Yeah, let my brother do it.
Marc:It does not sound like a good responsibility to have.
Marc:And this is sort of a morbid conversation, but I just want you to know that my selfish ass, when I first saw that I was second, was like, why, why, why, why, why him?
Marc:And now that I talk about it out loud with you, I realize that's fine with me.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:All right, let's talk to Langhorne Slim and listen to some music by him as well, if that would be okay with you.
Marc:So the heartbreak, man.
Marc:The heartbreak.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:So you love this girl and you were talking about the shit and you just realized I can't follow through.
Marc:Things are not going to work out.
Guest:Not exactly.
Guest:I feel like in my life I've been I'm in constant I'm constantly in and out of
Guest:heartbreak yeah and maybe heartache or heartbreak okay good heartache yeah yeah yeah heartache just a general heartache of like man things are tough all over no it's you know more romantic but a little bit of that yeah romantic um but with that and i suppose i think if you're
Guest:If you have extreme sides of your personality, then you're open to the great joys of the love.
Guest:And then, of course, susceptible to the terrible lows and pains of it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, it's not always clear to me what the great joys are.
Marc:Are they fleeting?
Marc:How long do they generally last?
Marc:I would be able to identify them, right?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Have you been unable to identify any bits of joy?
Marc:No, there's joy, but a lot of times when you're in a relationship and there's joy, it's because you're connected, you're locked in, there are moments.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But extended periods of joy, they frighten me, I think.
Guest:Yeah, and I don't know that I've had extended periods of joy.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:My mother told me, and I love her dearly, she's been divorced twice.
Guest:I don't know if she's the one to go to for advice, but I do with this stuff.
Guest:And she's told me...
Guest:And I've read scientific studies about this where you fall in love and then there's about a two-year period where the endorphins are going crazy in your brain.
Guest:And so you get a boner when you just sit next to somebody.
Guest:Or if you're a guy and if you're a woman, you have other things that happen.
Guest:And then after that, it's not that you don't get boners or excited anymore, but it's not as easy to that.
Guest:Tempered, yeah.
Guest:It's tempered.
Guest:And so the great hope is that you develop this friendship and this connection and partnership that you get on.
Guest:And that's a beautiful and romantic thought to me, and I don't know.
Guest:I mean, you said you're too old to deal with it.
Guest:I don't think you get too old to deal with it.
Guest:No, no, I'm not too old to deal with that, but I'm a little too old to deal with drama.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I say bullshit.
Guest:Because you're never too... Yeah, you don't want to, man.
Guest:Scream and yell and... No, nor do I. And I didn't when I was 15.
Guest:But you're probably a passionate man.
Guest:I'm a passionate fella.
Guest:And if you're passionate... You're going to scream and yell.
Guest:Yeah, but I don't think you should...
Guest:That's not where it's at.
Guest:It's not like, well, if we're screaming and yelling, then we really care.
Guest:I'm not interested in being miserable or anxiety-ridden.
Guest:I'm good at that on my own.
Guest:That's a little dramatic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you know what I mean.
Marc:I do know what you mean.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:No, it happens naturally.
Marc:It's how the brain works.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, when I think I first interviewed you back in the day, way back when you were young and...
Marc:It's true.
Marc:A sprouting folk singer.
Marc:You got to me kind of first.
Guest:To be honest.
Marc:Yeah, I don't remember where we hooked up.
Marc:I think it was some unsolicited CD.
Guest:Yeah, one of my first radio interviews was with you.
Marc:On Air America in 2000 and what?
Guest:I'm bad with these years.
Marc:Five?
Guest:It was a long time ago, man.
Marc:Nine years ago?
Guest:Yeah, holy shit.
Marc:You're like a kid.
Yeah.
Marc:And when I remember listening to that first record, I'm like, what's this guy up to?
Guest:This is some old school shit.
Guest:Yeah, old school shit for modern times.
Marc:Well, I mean, would you call what you do folk music?
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:Well, no, I'll be serious with you.
Guest:I had read, I think it was...
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:Maybe Louis Armstrong.
Guest:Maybe I'm forgetting who said it.
Guest:But that folk music is... Well, it's just German for Volk, I guess.
Guest:So the people.
Guest:So music for the people.
Guest:So to be hopefully unpretentious sounding, but to give you a real answer, if that is what folk music is, then that's certainly what I would... That's what I would hope that we are doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think when I first met you, there was, you know, I grew up with a certain understanding of that stuff.
Marc:My dad was into like Pete Seeger and shit.
Marc:And it seemed like, you know, as I went through Dylan and Arlo and all those cats, you know, there's definitely a vibe to that.
Marc:And you were definitely vibing that then.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:Dylan, I was listening to a lot of Nirvana, and then discovered Bob Dylan, discovered Harry Smith Folk, and all of that music kind of did for me the same thing, the same time I heard Otis Redding.
Guest:the same time I listen to Muddy Waters or Dylan or any of this kind of like what seemed very animalistic and just raw and real that to me is folk music punk rock folk music it's coming from a very raw rice I hate to say it's not simple but very like emotionally raw real place and that I connect with that deeply right in music
Marc:in relationship that goes to the joys and the miseries perhaps of the relationships because that I want I want to feel right at all times I think that like the what I'm calling folk music is just like the idea the guy with the guitar like even somebody like Billy Bragg you know there's a lot of passion in it but it was music with purpose and then there was sort of blues folk and they but there was definitely you know the folkies that were like you know they had a message
Marc:yeah you know woody guthrie you know he was you know he had a message you know there was there was something political about the populism of what he was doing you know and i think billy bragg sort of comes from that that that mode but like when i first saw in this like the new record's different but you still keep it pretty raw and pretty acoustic and pretty you know like you can tell that these are people playing instruments that's important yeah they certainly are human beings yes indeed they are
Marc:But when I first met you, I think you were just doing guitar, weren't you?
Marc:When we first met, it was just me.
Guest:I hadn't found a band yet.
Marc:And you were just like jamming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Plowing it out in Brooklyn or somewhere.
Guest:So did you see me play?
Guest:Why did you invite me?
Guest:Why did you invite me?
Marc:Because I think I literally got a CD and it was like Langhorne Slim.
Marc:That's a catchy name.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I put it on and I'm like, this guy means business.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:Let's get him in here.
Marc:Right on.
Marc:It was just like that.
Marc:And from my recollection, my producer would probably know better, but it seems like that was a deal.
Guest:But where'd you grow up?
Guest:Pennsylvania.
Guest:I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
Guest:What's that?
Guest:Suburb of Philadelphia.
Guest:Langhorne is the town that I'm from.
Guest:It's a small town.
Marc:Are you gunning for local hero status?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:When you came up with that name, you're like, I'm going to pay some tribute.
Guest:When I came up with it, it was more of a nod to blues guys that I liked and more of a rebellious kind of... I didn't...
Guest:I didn't fit in here growing up and I'm heading to New York to follow my dream and I'm taking the fucking name and I'm going to become big stuff.
Guest:It was more like that.
Guest:And then I tacked Slim on because I wanted to be like a black gospel or blues singer.
Guest:That didn't happen.
Guest:Well, I think I'm like a Jewish soul-y sort of singer.
Guest:So, you know, we're closer than, the Jews are closer to black.
Guest:You're a Jewish guy?
Guest:I'm a Jewish guy, yeah.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Bar Mitzvah and the whole thing.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yes, my friend.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So what do you come from outside of Philly?
Marc:My family's from Jersey.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So what kind of Jews you come from?
Marc:What style?
Marc:What style of Semite?
Marc:What was your old man?
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:He runs a liquor store.
Guest:I grew up with my mother, my brother.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we saw my dad on Sundays.
Guest:So we were the kinds of Jews that celebrate the holidays.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And said that we are Jewish for the tradition and for the family.
Guest:So the kind of Jews that like I think real Jews are like, you're not really Jewish.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah, those are really, really Jewish people.
Guest:Those are like super Jewish.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So we were, after my brother and I were bar mitzvahed, I think my mom was, I think she was cool with that and was like, all right, well, we'll let the boys kind of navigate their spiritual, religious journey from here.
Guest:On their own, yeah.
Guest:And I haven't gone to synagogue.
Guest:I am proud to be Jewish in the way I am.
Guest:But I would say...
Guest:yeah yeah no I get it yeah yeah the whole music thing kind of took became more of my religious um center did you ever listen to like there's some good Jewish like acoustic music did you ever listen to that Klezmer stuff that's fun I just I was at Amoeba Records in San Francisco we played there last night and I went and picked up a couple records there and one was because I loved it I'm not familiar with the guy I looked through the Klezmer section it was just like Jewish soul man yeah and I was like fuck is it an old record
Marc:yeah it's pretty i think it's from like i mean not super old like 60s or 70s but just the guy with his clarinet it's like yeah close-up shot of this yeah i love klezmer music it's pretty crazy man it's great dance music man it's dance music and it jams it jams it's like uh it's like that old dixieland uh the stuff from new orleans or whatever like it's like when you listen to louie armstrong and those kind of and that kind of jazz and just how much orchestration is going incredible it's crazy
Guest:It hits me in a similar way.
Guest:I love that Dixieland stuff, klezmer, Cajun, like Zydeco stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah, Clifton Chenier.
Guest:Some washboards and some accordions.
Guest:Yeah, that to me is like some of the... And bluegrass music, like old bluegrass is some great to me dance fiddle music is...
Guest:It's beautiful dance music.
Guest:And all that is now coming back around.
Guest:Appalachian music.
Guest:People are digging it, which is cool.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:You were a little ahead of the curve on that.
Marc:Now there's an abundance of, you know, moustached gents with arcane instruments.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, playing earnestly.
Guest:I don't know that I was ahead of any curve, but I definitely felt connected to it.
Guest:I feel like certain things that one is into aesthetic... I don't know.
Guest:This may be fucking weird.
Guest:Aesthetically, artistically, musically is...
Guest:is somehow like born into you so it's not an education necessarily that you study something and become into it it's somehow um it acts something activates like i think something is there and then yeah something activates it but it's somehow there now why that is i i haven't fully grasped no i i get it man i mean you know like why are some people just there's like nothing else to do other than some people you just need to do this thing right you know yeah
Guest:No matter when months or weeks or years go by and you're miserable doing it or you're loving doing it and wildly successful, but you need to do this.
Guest:Are you one of those guys?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:I've never had a backup plan.
Guest:People compliment me and I'm sure people like me by saying that that's somehow brave.
Guest:And I appreciate that when I hear it because I don't feel like that.
Guest:It's just...
Guest:I don't know what else to do with myself.
Guest:Yeah, I'm the same way, man.
Guest:I know, I figured.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:I'm 33.
Marc:Well, yeah, but eventually you'll get to a point where there will be nothing else you can do.
Guest:But I felt like that at 15, which is the weird thing.
Guest:And that's why I would get in trouble back then.
Guest:And my family and people were worried about me because it was like, well, that's cute and it's awesome that you seem passionate and into this, but it's like...
Guest:Come on, kid.
Guest:Backup plans.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They meant it with love.
Guest:Yeah, steady.
Guest:And also, I had a ton of support by my family, so I don't mean to say that they were- But it scares them.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I'm not a father, but I'm sure if I was, it would scare me.
Guest:No, I feel like it would scare me, too.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, like, come on, kid.
Marc:I mean, I'm glad you have this hobby.
Guest:Yeah, or even this passion.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because to me, I was just like, well, I'll be- And I'm somewhere in the middle, but I was like, I'll be either a rich and famous musician, or I'll be like a-
Guest:Broke homeless musician, but I'm gonna be a musician.
Guest:You got to the middle somewhere.
Guest:I'm like floating around in the middle somewhere.
Marc:And that's a cool spot.
Marc:So it's just you and your sister or your brother?
Marc:My brother.
Marc:You got older brother?
Marc:Yeah, he's a year and a half older.
Marc:What's he do?
Guest:He's a teacher at Brooklyn Tech.
Marc:Okay, so you're populist.
Marc:You're folk guys.
Guest:We're folky guys.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So when you grew up, I mean, what'd your mom do?
Marc:She did different things.
Guest:She did, I think, some real estate at one point.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She owned the Jenkintown Cheese Shop with Mrs. Galleon, which wasn't really a cheese shop.
Guest:It was more of a deli.
Guest:It's a cheese shop?
Guest:Cheese shop.
Guest:Yeah, Jakintown, Pennsylvania.
Guest:I think it's still there.
Guest:It's definitely not the same.
Guest:It can't be nearly as good as it was when Mrs. Galleon and my mom had it.
Guest:They had cheese?
Guest:They had some cheeses.
Guest:Like I said- Some meats?
Guest:Now that I'm a little older and I've been to cheese shops, I don't think it could really pass as a cheese shop.
Guest:it had like various but it didn't have it wasn't like stocked so this was your my mom did these things like like there's there's something sometimes women get to a point where they start getting entrepreneurial and they they they open a boutique or they become a real estate different things like that but her dream I think since she well her dream excuse me since she was a kid was to be a singer and she's a great singer yeah recently she got up and sang a little duet with me in Philadelphia which was one of the cooler moments oh really it was awesome what'd you sing
Guest:One of my songs.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Her favorite of my songs is a song called Diamonds and Gold.
Guest:But she then also always wanted to become a lawyer.
Guest:And so she became a lawyer and later in life put herself through law school and night school and all that shit.
Guest:And then became a divorce attorney.
Guest:And as a woman that's been a very strong but also sensitive soul.
Guest:And one that's been divorced twice.
Guest:Becoming a divorce attorney...
Guest:I don't know if it's the greatest job in the whole wide world.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But she's got a heart, you mean?
Marc:She's got too much of a heart for it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My mom's got too much of a heart for real estate.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, well, there you go.
Marc:She just doesn't know how to do the hard sell.
Guest:Yeah, well, and I think that's my mom, too.
Guest:She wants to help, but you're kind of seeing people in their worst stages.
Marc:Oh, God, it's horrible.
Marc:And really, quite frankly, divorce lawyers are dubious.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, because everybody just wants to keep the thing going.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:I do.
Guest:It doesn't sound like a fun... And that's part of my journey.
Guest:I'm trying to...
Guest:Like a young athlete, I'm trying to raise in the ranks to buy my mother a house or something, get her out of that.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Is she unhappy with it?
Guest:She doesn't love it, no.
Guest:Yeah, she's not thrilled.
Guest:Well, I hope you can buy her a house.
Guest:I'd love to buy her a house.
Guest:Wait, she's still in Pennsylvania?
Guest:She's in Langhorne, the house that I was born and raised.
Guest:Still?
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:So how old are you when your parents split?
Marc:Oh, so it was... No recollection.
Marc:Of the activity.
Guest:Of whatever shit hit the fan.
Guest:If there's any memory, it's been successfully suppressed.
Marc:And you only saw the old man once a week?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:For most of your life?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you got along with the guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We, uh...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what it was?
Guest:Well, I don't know what it was.
Guest:He's a good guy and did the best that he could, I think.
Guest:And we had great, wonderful grandparents that when my parents split, decided to get, I guess, very... Your father's folks.
Guest:And my mother's.
Guest:Instead of taking sides and parting ways and causing more BS.
Marc:Oh, so you got the love over there.
Guest:So much love, man.
Guest:So from Grandpa Jack and Grandpa Sid.
Marc:I had Grandpa Jack.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Oh, and Sid, too.
Marc:That's good, man.
Marc:Was Jack a Jacob?
Marc:No, Jack was a Jack.
Guest:Jack a Jack a Jack.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So Jack and Sid are my two grandfathers who both fairly recently passed, but they were just incredible, incredible grandfathers.
Guest:And then May and Ruth, who are still with us.
Guest:Kicking?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Marc:That's great, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So were the grandparents, were they wise old souls?
Marc:Did they dig what you were doing?
Marc:When did you start playing guitar?
Marc:I think when I was about 13 or 14.
Guest:But yeah, all wise old souls and all that were extremely supportive.
Guest:My grandpa Jack was a jazz drummer.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And then went off to war and then came back.
Guest:He was going to go meet his jazz band in San Francisco, but instead married my grandmother and didn't go and meet the band.
Guest:And then Sidney wasn't a musician, but just a lover of music.
Guest:Probably my best friend that I've ever had.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's your mom's dad?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what did he do?
Marc:What was his story?
Guest:Well, he was a great, strong businessman for a lot of his life, but he had a massive stroke when I was...
Guest:I don't know, when I was pretty young.
Guest:So I got to know him that way, and then I got to know him a different way.
Guest:But he recovered as much as possible.
Guest:I mean, they said he was going to be dead for sure, regained his speech and everything like that.
Guest:So he and I were super, super tight.
Guest:It's sweet, man.
Guest:He was a great friend and also...
Guest:a philosopher that wouldn't have considered himself a philosopher and like a poet that wouldn't have considered, you know, just kind of, I wrote a, there's a song about it, it's called Song for Said on the New Record, and it's just like, I understood the words, the words he said, even if it was tough to understand the words through the stroke or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Man, he would say some poignant shit that was just like, oh, I know, like you're saying it.
Marc:Like, do you remember anything?
Guest:Well, there's stuff that I've put into some songs.
Guest:There was a time that I was kind of bitching and complaining to him about, I was upset about a relationship or about something.
Guest:And I was like, Sidney, I'm bummed out about this and it's kind of taking over my life right now.
Guest:And then I get crazy because I know it's not that bad and there's people out there that are struggling way more than that.
Guest:And I feel guilty and ashamed, but I feel bad.
Guest:And he's like...
Guest:Sean, your pain is valid.
Guest:All pain feels the same.
Guest:And I thought that was very, to your own reality, your pain is very valid.
Guest:And you shouldn't,
Guest:seep into it so much that you drown in it.
Marc:Well, I think the comparisons are important so you don't fall into self-pity.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But pain is pain.
Guest:Pain is pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like you're going through a breakup right now.
Guest:That hurts an awful lot.
Guest:And it's like, it doesn't necessarily matter that the guy across the street just...
Guest:I don't know, like chopped off his leg by accident or whatever it is.
Guest:It's like, that's a different kind of pain, but your pain is real and bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't have to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think the tricky part about pain is, is like, it's important to, to, to sort of compare it, you know, only to know that you can get through it and that, you know, there, there are worse things that can happen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's certainly good to put things into perspective, sure.
Marc:Now, when he started doing the guitar, because I know my old man wasn't around.
Marc:At all.
Marc:They were married.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:But he was emotionally absent.
Marc:And I always have this weird question about that.
Marc:Because I know dudes whose dads were divorced and they were out.
Marc:But it creates a weird kind of hunger for some sort of guidance somewhere.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:I might be speculating.
Marc:I think you're onto something.
Marc:Yeah, you know, like it's weird because in my life, you know, you look, you find a lot of mentors, you find something, you feel like there's something about not having a very present father where you're kind of ill-defined and you kind of want to define yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you kind of struggle through it.
Guest:Well, that's been very perceptive of you, my friend.
Guest:And that's why I kind of froze when you asked about it because my dad isn't a bad dude.
Guest:He was emotionally a little...
Guest:incapable, I think.
Guest:It's not a fault of his, I don't think, it's just the way that it was.
Guest:And I have felt like a child or a man that doesn't belong in a lot of places.
Guest:And that has been a struggle yet.
Guest:such a beautiful struggle in that it keeps me constantly, and I don't know, it's just from my dad, or I don't know, it's just daddy issues, but it's certainly, whatever that is, that fire that does live inside of me, keeps me always kind of searching for something, and something real and something to sink my teeth into.
Marc:Right, and there's something about music, I mean, even me in my clunky way,
Marc:If I come out here and I just lay into the guitar, I don't write songs, I'm a little afraid of it, though for some reason.
Marc:It's great medicine, man.
Marc:I know, but I don't have confidence.
Marc:It's not my bag, but I can play.
Marc:But it's not my forte.
Marc:And I would feel like if I write or do anything, it would feel like a hobby to me, which is not bad.
Marc:But I would seek some validation, and then I'd have to have people go like,
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's good.
Marc:That's good, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, why do you think that we all get up on stages?
Marc:No, I know, I know.
Marc:But I know I do what I do, and I wouldn't want to assume that I could do what you do.
Marc:But whatever.
Marc:Maybe I'm being too hard on myself.
Marc:But my point is that that feeling of connectivity that one gets through expressing themselves, especially with music and putting yourself out in front of people and also just finding the dynamics of a song, it's very satisfying.
Marc:It's very heartwarming.
Marc:And I think that's what makes, you know, artists feel like, you know, not only grounded, but like that's part, you know, those are the moments where you're like, oh, I can stop searching for this one.
Marc:I got this one.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, but I don't think that that's how it goes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, it depends on what you're writing about, I suppose.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:For me, that one is going to be their feelings that there's like compartments that I hold inside of me where it's like, this is my little like anger chamber.
Guest:This is my little like happiness.
Guest:And so they're like chambers.
Guest:I got some chambers.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah, I think that I do.
Guest:And as I get older, maybe that's totally unhealthy.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But I feel like they are kind of compartmentalized.
Marc:Well, I mean, if you have access to the chambers, I think it's fine.
Guest:Music gives me the access to the chambers.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where it's like, I don't always feel... Say it's a song about...
Guest:a heartbreak because yeah i don't walk around every day feel thank goodness feel heartbroken but if i if i am moved somehow i can tap into that plate like that's i have felt it before therefore it is there somehow so i don't think it's like a maybe i'm misunderstanding you but i don't feel like as you write the song or if it is a song that quote unquote works yeah that it's like a checklist where it's like all right i got that
Marc:No, no, I just mean that whatever you're searching for, when something becomes whole, you've delivered something.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:The search never ends, but you've found this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I found this in me, and now it's a thing I can share.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And do you have songs that you can't get through without crying?
Yeah.
Guest:The one that I guess I'll probably play was one that I couldn't get through without crying for a long time.
Guest:The one from my grandfather.
Guest:But I was cool with that.
Guest:There's another song called Salvation, which had to do with my breakup.
Guest:That was a very, one of the more honest songs that I've been able to write.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:let's see the guy cry um but as you go on it is like with with these compartments of feelings uh it just depends on how it hits you that night so there are times that it still will bring me to tears because i i feel it so so deeply there's some shit that i'm going on in my life there's a song called past lives on the record where there's a line i ain't dead anymore i'd never thought about it
Guest:In a way, there's just stuff that I'm kind of moving through and changing some behaviors I'll say in my life.
Guest:Where all of a sudden I was singing it one night and it hit me like, this is, that's a cool thing about songs too, man, is that sometimes what you're writing about in the moment, it becomes something very different when you sing it two years later, five years later.
Guest:The meanings of the songs can change as you're performing them and as you're tapping into the emotion.
Guest:Because without the emotion of the, imagine singing these songs as they get old year after year older.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:without you have to find some truth in it or else it'll be a total bore to you and the people you're playing it to so you have to tap into what's going on now in your life so you can yeah project that same and also you might you might have love for the song too anyways you know what i mean i have to assume because like i was really stunned to find out you know i've interviewed nicolo
Marc:in here and you know he played the beast in me you know and i you know i have a very difficult time accepting that somebody's just uh you know writing a song at a distance like yeah you know when when when i hear when i hear the beast in me i know he wrote it for johnny cash but i knew he wrote it and i'm like well he must have been through some shit but some guys are just sort of like no i just you know song i just wrote the song and you know i because what i do like i lay it all out
Marc:And I think some people, you know, lay it all out or they just create the magic.
Marc:Like there are guys that just write songs.
Marc:There are guys who write songs for a living.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And they're good songs.
Guest:And I'm fascinated by that.
Guest:I've always been...
Guest:As a songwriter, my little journey has been as somebody that was born very much just like a feeler.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And so somehow I had a little bit of a knack for melody, and I learned how to play some guitar, and so I started putting songs together.
Guest:But it was complete... There was no intellectualizing anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was just kind of like stream of consciousness.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm just getting this thing out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And as I get older, I'm trying to...
Guest:You know, editing is good at some point, some sort of editing.
Guest:So it is to not shut down that, to unleash the emotion and then kind of intellectualize it a little bit and shape it into a better song.
Marc:You become a better craftsman as time goes on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:I was just because I am interested in that as a song.
Guest:I would love to be able to write from a distance as well.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And see what that's all about.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I haven't figured that out, but I think that that's cool that some people can do that.
Marc:Well, I find that like with humor.
Marc:Well, even if I do like jokes that I know like to have some distance, if something is too structured and I can't find much wiggle room in it.
Marc:Like I get bored with it pretty quick.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know.
Guest:And even if it goes over, don't you kind of, at the end of the show, do you feel a little.
Guest:Yeah, like I tricked him.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unless I, yeah, unless I really, and that's why I've found even in my songs live, I love to improvise stuff because that makes it real and immediate for me then.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, I know, and believe me, I use some of the, I think any performer does.
Guest:I have some tricks that I know work from night to night or most nights.
Guest:But unless I can create some kind of immediate realness, I feel a little bummed after the show.
Guest:Like, all right, well, they all clapped.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Nobody was pissed.
Guest:It didn't seem like anybody walked out.
Guest:But did I kind of, was it special?
Guest:Because I need to feel like it's so special.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That you were present.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that something happened that'll never happen again.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because what are we doing if it's not that?
Marc:Well, right.
Marc:But some guys, are you kidding?
Marc:They do their act.
Marc:They're not going to get out of step or they might get blown up by the smoke machine or the pyrotechnics.
Marc:Hey, man.
Guest:People get off in all different ways.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I've seen crazy things on the internet.
Guest:I need to feel a real thing happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For me, the best thing that can happen on stage is I get off and say, that's never going to happen again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:you know even if it's like weird or even if it's not awkward uncomfortable whatever yeah yeah yeah i'm with you you do that too i feel like i need that i do too but like the weird thing is is those shows where we don't think it's working you gotta shut your mouth because they don't know that you know they they can feel things that happen yeah but you know what you're looking for and what they're looking for are two different things
Marc:so like sometimes you know you may get off stage and think like well i didn't i didn't really you know have that moment right but they're like well we love all those songs oh sure but i'm i got to be careful not to be like you know yeah yeah it was all right oh well i mean what i used to if i felt like it was a bad show i'm sure anybody that's performed has this where uh people would say oh that was a
Guest:great show afterward and i would say man you should have seen us like that shit sucked you should have seen us last week in cleveland that was a great show take the experience away from yeah and then i you know i i not quickly not so quickly but it took me a little while to realize that's not cool like you know allow allow the person to enjoy it sure even if you thought it was truly a horrible experience right but um
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I just say thank you regardless.
Marc:When you started, that's the best way to go, dude.
Marc:Let them project whatever they need.
Marc:Let them have what they think you are and don't invite them into your... Well, if what they think you are was good at your job that night, don't convince them otherwise.
Marc:Yeah, just because you're fucking crazy.
Marc:All right, so you get the guitar at 13.
Marc:What was your first teacher like?
Marc:What kind of drove you at that time?
Guest:So, yeah, maybe it's a common story.
Guest:There was a broken guitar in the house.
Guest:What kind?
Guest:You remember?
Guest:No, I think it might have been a no-name guitar.
Guest:It was somebody that had worked for my mother at... Darshan was her name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she worked for my mother at the cheese shop and gave my mother this broken guitar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't take to school.
Guest:I wasn't good at that time as a student in any way.
Guest:Were you a problem?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:So your mother was concerned?
Marc:Concerned.
Marc:What was your problem?
Guest:Well, I didn't think I had a problem.
Marc:Well, you weren't doing something.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't connect or have a lot.
Guest:I didn't respect or connect with the authority figures that were around me.
Guest:I didn't get along well with the other students.
Guest:I wasn't a very good team player.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to this day, I don't.
Guest:It's not just.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:I'm a little immature.
Guest:Like, I don't want to.
Guest:If you say sit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sean, sit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I'll find a few reasons why I don't want to sit.
Guest:Like, why do I have to sit?
Guest:Yeah, I think one of them would be like, who the fuck are you to tell me to sit?
Guest:I'm not a dog.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I get what you're saying.
Guest:And that's what school... And also the kind of school that I went to until I was taken out of that school and put into like an arts, you know, hippie school, which was the best thing that happened to me at the time.
Guest:It saved my ass in a lot of ways.
Guest:There was no...
Guest:There's a real problem in our school system, in my opinion, a lot of them, but one for somebody like myself is that there is, at least in the one that I went to, there was no understanding of other types of intelligence.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'm not talking about UFOs exactly.
Guest:I'm talking about- No, I know what you're saying.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They got a curriculum.
Marc:They got a curriculum.
Marc:If you're bright, but you go to be to your own drummer, you're like, well, he's not in the curriculum.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And instead of there being anything outside of the box, you were put into different programs and sort of made to think that you're dumb.
Guest:And if I didn't, you know, I can understand how a lot of kids get off into a bad place.
Guest:Thankfully, I came from a family that could take me out of this school when they were finally like, all right, this is enough.
Guest:And then go to this little hippie private school.
Guest:Was there an incident?
Guest:There were many incidences.
Marc:How did you act out?
Marc:What was it?
Marc:Did you fight?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I never won any of them, you know, emotionally or physically.
Guest:Never won.
Guest:I did bum rush a kid once.
Guest:I was terrible.
Guest:And I guess physically I won that, but it wasn't fair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was a dick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:And so that was, you know, people talk a lot about the freedom that they felt when they were a kid.
Guest:And I kind of hated being a kid.
Guest:And I enjoy getting older.
Guest:And I find so much more freedom in being a grown-up, being a man.
Guest:I felt very, very...
Guest:suffocated sure as a kid it's frustrating it's frustrating because like people either think you're you're a problem or you're you're not motivated yeah but you're just paralyzed with some sort of boredom and that's what it was and i and i always felt that there was some of my earliest memories of just feeling like i wanted to make like that there was something positive and something in in me that had to come out um other than poo yeah and that was to make something and i didn't know what that was because i didn't have a guitar
Marc:So what were you trying first?
Guest:Well, I think that's what it was, is that it was coming out, but in ways it was getting me in trouble.
Guest:It was coming out in class because I was acting out and being a smart ass.
Marc:It's interesting, though, because just going back to the dad thing, is that when you don't have that, when you don't have any, I don't know what your parents were like, they sounded like good parents, but I didn't grow up with a lot of discipline.
Marc:I did, though.
Marc:You did?
Guest:I mean, a fair amount.
Guest:My mom definitely did the best she could to
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:To whip some ass when she had to.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And don't forget about Jack and Sid.
Guest:You know, I had those guys around, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was, but I don't think it couldn't be controlled because it was, I so felt...
Guest:It sounds dramatic, and it is, but I so felt caged that I was constantly trying to break through any way that I could.
Guest:Then I started to do some art classes, and that was a wonderful thing.
Guest:Then I started to do theater classes.
Guest:Painting?
Guest:Oh, you did some painting, drawing, whatever.
Guest:When I was a kid, anything that was somewhat creative.
Guest:And theater was good?
Guest:This is my thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Theater was great, but I wasn't, again, I wasn't good at listening to the, music was so great because then I could write my own stuff.
Guest:I wasn't reading.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I could express, it was some release for this crazy thing.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So when you got the guitar, you got a teacher?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, the way that I learned how to play guitar was my cousin David, the teacher at the Guitar Center or whatever was the comparison back then, was teaching me like Aerosmith licks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wasn't a big Aerosmith fan.
Guest:I like Aerosmith a little bit more now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I couldn't hit those licks and I wasn't very inspired.
Guest:So I sucked at that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then David, my cousin, was in a band who I loved.
Guest:And I used to, like a punk rock band, I used to go down the shore.
Guest:They lived in Margate, close to Atlantic City, and I would watch him play and it was so great.
Guest:What was the band?
Guest:Well, there was one called Midget Love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And hopefully by the time this is done, I can think of there was a couple different ones that he was in.
Marc:Did he have a break?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, around like Atlantic City area, they had some great shows.
Guest:But no, and he still plays and he's a badass, but he doesn't do it professionally.
Guest:I don't think that he wants to.
Guest:But he taught me, we were really big Nirvana fans, and he taught me Polly.
Guest:He taught me a couple Nirvana songs.
Marc:When you were 13?
Guest:13 or 14, something like that.
Guest:And so that's how I learned, because I loved it so much, man.
Guest:So I just sat and played Polly over and over again.
Guest:And I don't know that I played it well, but to me it was so cool.
Guest:So I finally got those chords, and then very...
Guest:I guess naturally it occurred to me to change the chords around into my own little songs based on the chords to Polly.
Marc:So your cousin was the guy.
Marc:He was the older guy that was like, that's the guy.
Marc:He's the cool guy.
Guest:Growing up, I looked very much up to my older cousin David and my older cousin Noah.
Guest:And they were huge in my life.
Guest:They were big music and art lovers.
Guest:And they had real punk rock, I don't know, they were beautiful freaks.
Guest:And they, until I...
Guest:could find some people because I couldn't find people like that in school, you know, until I got, you know, later on in high school a little bit.
Guest:And then when I went to college in New York, then I was like, holy shit.
Guest:For the first time, I had a community of friends because I found other freaks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Noah and David were like a little bit, you know, like that.
Guest:So I had some.
Guest:So you knew they were out there.
Guest:They were out there, and they knew I was, and they were like, come here.
Guest:I'm going to show you this.
Guest:David taught me Nirvana songs and lesser-known punk rock stuff, and Noah was taking me to art museums in New York and setting me up in Washington Square Park to play songs and listening to my cassette tapes and really digging it and playing me butthole surfers.
Guest:From my bar mitzvah, Noah got me butthole surfers, pavement, and...
Guest:Nirvana and Utero.
Guest:He used to sit me down in front of the TV and play Bob Dylan, Don't Look Back.
Guest:And I watched that way too many times.
Guest:I had to stop.
Marc:That's a pretty good combination of things.
Guest:Yeah, it was a great combination of things.
Marc:Pavement, Nirvana, Butthole Surfers, and Bob Dylan's Don't Look Back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's all you need, kind of.
Guest:And so, yeah, that was that blew your mind.
Guest:It blew my mind.
Guest:And I, in some way, I don't think this is like overly romanticizing now.
Guest:I felt OK.
Guest:Like I felt safety in that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, yeah.
Guest:And that in that and that there were people that got it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And music, it keeps doing that for you.
Marc:You know, like, you're never going to know all the music.
Marc:Like, I just recently started getting into Harry Nelson.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:That's a great thing to start getting into, man.
Marc:Right?
Marc:That's a deep well that you're... How did I miss that?
Marc:I got that.
Marc:There's a box right there.
Marc:I see that.
Marc:But I got some vinyl in the house.
Marc:And, like, it's just, like, that, you know, and I watched the documentary, but, like, after I started getting into them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, like, the depth of sadness and the well of that voice.
Marc:I mean, what the fuck?
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:One of the greatest voice, you know, that was John Lennon's, he said he was the best American singer.
Marc:And then he subsequently helped him destroy his voice on that album they did together.
Guest:But he's incredible.
Guest:And in fact, I just had my friend Kenny Siegel, who produced our last record, just did a Nielsen tribute record that I sang on.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:What'd you sing?
Guest:Early in the Morning.
Guest:Great one.
Guest:That's a great song.
Guest:Great one, yeah.
Marc:Are you a fan of Bruce Springsteen?
Guest:Yeah, big fan.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Have you always been?
Guest:I've always had a deep respect for Springsteen and liked the radio hits.
Guest:But we had an experience where he came to a show and got to meet him.
Guest:And after meeting the man, became way more interested in his music.
Marc:Well, he did a folk thing.
Marc:That's why I was bringing him up.
Marc:He decided later in his career to sort of... Started that way, too, really.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I have those demos, and it sounds a little like what you do, even.
Guest:do you know what i mean like they were just raw and real and you know the poetry but wait yeah those records are great and yeah nebraska and atlanta oh yeah yeah and the in the the tom joad record and the uh the what was it the seager set the p2 that thing was crazy right i came up more on like which i love now sure and after this experience i loved even more because the guy was so like you hear a lot of well if you are told them or or ask them you
Guest:You hear stories about the guy being just the coolest dude and it turns out that he's like the coolest dude.
Guest:So he was just at a show and you went backstage and there's Bruce.
Guest:So this is one of the cooler experiences that we've had.
Guest:I've been touring for like 10 years and this day, this whole day was incredible.
Guest:So what happened is, and I'll try not to ramble too much,
Guest:What happened was, I think it was the last show on this tour that we were doing, and it was at this little bar on the beach in Asbury Park.
Guest:Of course, yeah.
Marc:By Asbury Park.
Marc:Not the white, what was it, the White Horse, or what was the one you used to play?
Guest:Stone Pony.
Guest:Stone Pony.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:It was like a smaller spot.
Guest:And so we're playing this little place.
Guest:Like I said, I think it's like the last show on the tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody's a little tired.
Yeah.
Guest:We get to the venue and it's close enough that my mom was gonna drive out to the show.
Guest:So I walk across the street.
Guest:My mom's a huge like Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler, Liza Minnelli fan.
Guest:So I walk across the street and I see that Liza Minnelli happens to be playing at the big theater across the street from this little bar that we're playing at.
Guest:And it turns out that it's the same people putting on the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I asked the people that were running our show, could they get my mother in to the Liza?
Guest:To see Liza, sure.
Guest:It would be thrilling for my mom.
Guest:And she was coming with Mrs. Galleon, the same woman she ran the Jamie Township shop with.
Guest:They were coming.
Guest:So they said, of course, man, of course.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:No problem.
Guest:So they put her on the list.
Guest:I called my mom.
Guest:I was like, how's your day going?
Guest:She said, it's going really shitty.
Guest:I said, leave work early.
Guest:Come down to the beach.
Guest:I got you tickets to see Liza.
Guest:And she goes, because my son is Langhorne Slim, I get to see Liza.
Guest:I'm on the list.
Guest:I was like, I guess so.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:We're doing this little show and Liza's playing across the street.
Guest:So yeah, I guess you could look at it that way.
Guest:She's like, all right, I'm leaving work early.
Guest:We're coming down.
Guest:We're coming to Jersey.
Guest:We're going to see Liza.
Guest:So she was psyched.
Guest:They go and see Liza while they're in the first, like the first act before intermission.
Guest:I'm in getting set up and I go and use the bathroom and I come out and our tour manager and dear friend at the time, Mia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I come out and I see she's like totally looks totally white and like freaked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I go, Mia, are you cool?
Guest:And she's like, dude, the boss is at the bar.
Yeah.
Guest:And even though I was in Asbury Park, I just thought she meant the boss of the bar.
Guest:I looked and I just saw some people sitting there.
Guest:I was like, okay, cool.
Guest:So what's up?
Guest:She goes, the boss is sitting at the bar.
Guest:And I was like, Mayo, what the fuck?
Guest:What's the deal?
Guest:She's like, Bruce Springsteen's at the bar.
Guest:I think he's here to see you guys.
Guest:So this was before soundcheck.
Guest:I don't know if he comes and lets his presence, feels it out.
Guest:Or maybe just lets, it was a small place.
Marc:Does he live by there still?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or at least he's got a house.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I was like, oh, my goodness.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Bruce Springsteen sitting at the bar.
Guest:OK.
Guest:And so people start talking.
Guest:And so it turns out we get word that, in fact, he was interested in maybe coming to the show or at least like meeting us or whatever.
Guest:um and it turns out i think his kids are just like really big fans of a lot of this kind of music that's going on now and so he's in tune with it or he's in tune with it on his own i don't really know how it all went down but anyway um i'm introduced to somebody comes up to me and says would you like to meet bruce i'm like i would love to but i don't want to like i'm the last guy that wants to if i saw you and recognize i know you a little bit and i would feel weird right i don't know yeah
Guest:So I was like, I don't want to bother.
Guest:He said, I think you guys should meet.
Guest:So we're introduced as the guy that runs the show that night.
Guest:He's like, let me introduce you to Bonnaroo veterans, this festival Bonnaroo, which I thought was a funny way to introduce Bruce Springsteen and I together.
Guest:It was like, two Bonnaroo veterans.
Guest:So I was like, hey, how's it going?
Guest:My mother happens to be there.
Guest:Apparently Liza wasn't having a great set, so she leaves that show and comes over and is like,
Guest:Bruce Springsteen was like the craziest day.
Guest:You get me into the Liza show and now Bruce.
Guest:And so Springsteen was talking to my mom and I about how like the artists and the gays are revitalizing Asbury Park and it's such a beautiful job that they're doing.
Guest:And he offers my mom like a shot of tequila.
Guest:My mom turns him down.
Guest:Then later was like, I can't believe I turned down Springsteen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he was just incredible to the band.
Guest:He talked to the guys in the band and just was amazingly cool and everything.
Guest:And toward the end of the conversation, it was Jeff Ratner who plays bass and my mom and I talking to him.
Guest:He's like, man, I'm gonna try to come back for the show, but I got the wife's away, I got the kids.
Guest:I'm going to try to come back.
Guest:And my bass player, Jeff, says, well, in case you can't make it back, we'll give you some CDs.
Guest:And Springsteen goes, actually, I prefer to buy all my music.
Guest:And he goes, and I've got a few of yours already.
Guest:And I was like, that's amazing, man.
Guest:I've got a few of yours, too.
Guest:So...
Guest:He goes and we're just like, holy crap, that was pretty wild.
Guest:And lo and behold, the opener goes on and is playing.
Guest:And then people come running up to me and go, Bruce is back and he's here to see you guys.
Guest:So Spring... And it's like this little place.
Guest:And of course, all of a sudden, we are the coolest band in Asbury Park by far that night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the place is just like totally packed at that point out the door.
Guest:And Springsteen is there.
Guest:And the whole set just in the crowd grooving.
Guest:And apparently, I didn't hear it myself, obviously, because I'm on stage, but apparently he was by my mom at one point and just being cool with my mom and Mrs. Galleon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And somebody came up to Bruce and was like, hey, man, can I have an autograph or take a picture?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know if it's 100% true, but it's what I heard.
Guest:Springsteen goes...
Guest:man not tonight tonight's langhorne's night but i'll introduce you to his mom and he introduced this like fan to my mom and it was yeah it was just incredible so he came up after the show and and uh said he really dug the set in fact he was like come by he complimented the the band and the show was like man come by any time and to this day i wish i would have been like where do i go yeah
Guest:It was like I got an invitation to come by anytime.
Guest:But yeah, that was a crazy thing.
Guest:And of course, I had always really liked his music, but after that experience, and the guy is so cool.
Guest:Bruce, I'd love to come by anytime.
Marc:That's a great story.
Marc:I'd like to come by too, Bruce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was over.
Marc:We'll both come over.
Marc:so all right so when did you decide on to to stick with you know like you obviously made a decision at some point you know you were attached to the guitar you but you were playing songs that were constructed by fairly heavy bands but you decided to go this more organic route in a way yeah i don't know that it was a decision um
Guest:I think that it is music to me that is all very much the same.
Guest:It comes from a very similar place.
Guest:So I think the reason that I play more of like an acoustic or folk kind of a style is because I didn't have a band to plug in with back then or something.
Guest:And so because I was a little bit of a loner, I guess, and I was discovering the stuff in that way when I first heard like...
Guest:Some of those blues guys like Lead Belly.
Marc:When did you hear those guys?
Guest:Pretty early because Kurt Cobain was talking about Lead Belly.
Marc:Oh, so he went that way.
Guest:And so anything that I was reading about him and looking into that stuff.
Guest:And I realized that you could do punk rock music with an acoustic guitar.
Guest:Billy Bragg said the same thing.
Guest:yeah well you know he and i might have very similar yeah you know similar tastes that was a very powerful thing to me was to hear a guy or a girl with a guitar or piano and just even in a quiet way you could impact the soul pretty deeply you know yeah so i realized that that was possible i didn't need to and i fantasize so much about having this like band of brothers which now i have yeah but um but yeah the time i didn't so it was it was a way to to to have a release it's just funny that you know like
Marc:And this gets back to, you know, just me, you know, sort of relating to you that, you know, and I think it's this father thing again, is that, you know, without the presence in your life, you know, you find these people and we're just lucky, you know, and if you gravitate towards art or the freaks because you feel out of place, and I did too, you just got to thank God or whatever you believe in that, you know, these people come into your life.
Marc:And I do.
Guest:And I've had...
Guest:these guardian angels appear throughout my life.
Guest:There's quite a number of them.
Guest:It's such a beautiful thing and I'm so lucky and you're so lucky because when I have had some friends that wind up in trouble or hear about this person that winds up in jail or just miserable with their lives and fell into this or that, if I didn't have this thing, without a doubt,
Guest:without a doubt, I would be in a bad place, man.
Guest:I'd be in a bad place.
Marc:Do you ever sing a song about that?
Marc:I think they're all kind of about it in some way.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's just there's something funny about the idea that if I didn't have this guitar, I'd be in trouble.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and I think it's true for a lot of artists, for a lot of musicians.
Guest:And a lot of us do get in trouble.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They'd either be in trouble in a real way or in trouble just mentally.
Marc:I mean, there's that constant combat with that.
Marc:You certainly see that in Nielsen, and you can see it in, like, I was talking to Josh Homian here, and he said that when he went through his ordeal...
Marc:The horrible thing is he died on the operating table, and when he came out of it, the music that he played at in his head was gone.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Whatever that struggle was, whatever that thing coming within him that he worked with and against at the same time.
Marc:Shut down.
Marc:And that was the darkest time of his life.
Marc:How did he get through that?
Marc:Well, it took him a while.
Marc:And he just slowly, after a couple years of darkness, started playing again.
Guest:Wow, that's incredible.
Guest:It reminds me, but it's a little bit the opposite of my grandfather, Sid.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:When he had this massive stroke and he came out of it, I asked him how, because he was a very strong guy and everything was sort of stripped away.
Guest:And I asked him years later, you know, how did you get through it?
Guest:How did you get the strength?
Guest:And he was like, well, I couldn't speak.
Guest:I couldn't move really.
Guest:But I could hear music in my head and I could whistle a little bit.
Guest:And that's what kind of got him through.
Marc:See, that's the thing about music that's different than anything else, is that all you need is a melody.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And no one's going to take the magic away from that.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:No.
Guest:And it keeps giving.
Guest:It keeps giving.
Guest:And that's why we turn to music so much in dark times.
Guest:And it's a great compliment that when I meet people at the shows that...
Guest:that I get from time to time is maybe my music lends itself to that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But people often are just like, man, I went through some really dark shit this year and you help.
Guest:And I get to hear a lot of stories, you know, which is like, I would love it.
Guest:It was like, man, I had a beautiful, it was such a lovely Sunday that I had and I put on some of your tunes and it was even lovelier.
Marc:Me and my chick fuck to your songs all the time.
Marc:I never hear that.
Guest:I got to start writing some different kinds of tunes.
Guest:But yeah, music sounds kind of corny, but it is definitely a gift that keeps giving.
Marc:And it keeps people connected to something.
Marc:I get that a little too with this show, just by what we talk about here, where people are like, I was going through some shit, and you were there for me.
Marc:And I'm like, I couldn't have ever planned that.
Guest:And I wouldn't have planned this either because, and without sounding full of our, if we have a talent, you know, and there might be different talents, but you're doing it, you're doing something real.
Guest:You're being yourself there.
Guest:And, you know, I don't have...
Guest:This is an interview.
Guest:This is a conversation with two dudes.
Guest:That's cool, man.
Guest:It's real shit.
Guest:And so people, that's what people really want is real stuff.
Guest:So that's what people connect to.
Marc:Well, I think so.
Marc:And I'm not sure that they necessarily know that, but they feel it.
Marc:It's like that thing we were talking about, about being on stage in that moment.
Marc:Is that there's so much sort of distraction.
Marc:There's so much sort of calculated kind of output.
Marc:It's a very passive relationship.
Marc:And sometimes, sadly, most people only know real things when shit is going wrong.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:When the speed changes.
Marc:Like that second or two that you know you're going to hit that other car.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And everything converges.
Marc:I'm like, oh, shit.
Marc:Like when something is off, that's when people know authenticity.
Marc:And that's a horrible, sad thing.
Marc:Well, maybe that's something a little off in our society right now.
Marc:it's off everywhere you know you everyone's in their own head too and everyone's worried about their own shit yeah and everybody's afraid to to sort of release it because they don't know how and they they can't in the situation they're in until something like just blows up so i think music like it worked for you to to sort of focus that for sure it serves that purpose for other people they can turn you know let off a little steam for sure
Guest:Which is why people tune into your show, probably, which is why maybe people come to my show, is to be... We're all just dirty animals when it comes down to it.
Guest:Everybody's got a freak inside.
Guest:And I think that that is where we're most at home, is to be these weirdos.
Guest:And I think we're so scared about what people think and to do this or to do that.
Guest:When we're a bunch of...
Guest:freaks running around if we could let ourselves open that up a little bit more be proud freaks i think if we could be proud beautiful freaks we would be happier yeah definitely i really think so we'd be more content be less anxiety ridden yeah it's tough to tap into that and also though the the taxing part of it you know is that you know is is when you offer that much of yourself out there and you and i think you know it sometimes
Marc:there's a real risk to it.
Marc:It's not just a risk of a song you're not killing or a story or whatever, but to be an artistic person and really feel like, I'm putting my heart out there, and I could get hurt, or I might not be able to handle it.
Marc:It's heavy, but what else are you gonna do?
Guest:I feel like opening yourself up to be vulnerable artistically is almost like your duty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And is, I think... Look, when I was going through my breakup, I had this record to make right as it was happening.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:People that don't have something to put these feelings into.
Guest:Which record?
Guest:This last record.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:The Way of a Move record, yeah.
Guest:Came out.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Thank you, man.
Guest:I enjoyed it.
Guest:Was this your fourth record?
Guest:This is the fourth full length, yeah.
Guest:And I had this to wake up with my best friends in this house that's in upstate New York.
Guest:And to put all this emotion and feeling and, yeah, vulnerability.
Marc:So you did the whole band Dylan thing?
Marc:You got a house upstate and just laid it out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is the way that I would always want to do records, I think, from now on.
Guest:It was a beautiful experience.
Guest:But I would ride around in the van listening to some Brazilian psychedelic music that I was getting into at the time and cry and just yell and talk to myself and look around and see that people were like, man, this guy's crazy.
Guest:And I felt a little unhinged.
Guest:And then I would come back into the house and we would start working.
Guest:And it was...
Guest:so great and it all kind of can't.
Guest:So being open to those feelings and then putting it into the music or to whatever the thing is.
Marc:And also trusting the cats you're working with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, tell me about that process.
Marc:That sounds interesting.
Marc:So you rented a house that had a studio or how did it work?
Guest:So it's our good friend Kenny Siegel's house.
Guest:He wasn't a friend at the time.
Guest:We didn't know.
Guest:But we were looking for sort of rural retreat, I suppose.
Guest:Like a home studio.
Guest:We didn't want to do more of a traditional recording studio where we'd check in and out.
Guest:But then we would live together for a week or two weeks and record, which was in the living room of this great old house.
Guest:And you lived together?
Guest:Yeah, we all stayed in the house together.
Guest:I guess...
Guest:I don't know if it was a week and a half or two weeks.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And did about 27 songs in that time.
Guest:I picked, I think there's 13 or 14 for the record, but yeah.
Marc:Did you play most of it in unison?
Marc:Was there overdubbing or you just, like you did it as a crew?
Guest:For the first time it was pretty much all live.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:there's some songs with some horns David who plays keyboard also plays banjo on it so obviously he wasn't doing that at the same time so there was some overdubbing but it was all the basic songs and I was singing all live which was the first time that we ever did that that I'd ever done that and it by far is the best it was the best recording experience that I had that's great man and when you say you're going to start working on stuff what's your process with that?
Marc:Just carry a notebook around and wait till it hits you?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's pretty much like that.
Guest:To be available for the spirit when it moves me.
Marc:I so understand that, man.
Marc:I was on stage the other night and I had one of the best sets of comedy.
Marc:I did an hour.
Marc:And it was like the best set I've had in years.
Marc:And it was just for one audience.
Marc:And thank God.
Marc:It's one of those things where I've got this machine here I could take with me.
Marc:I could record myself every night.
Marc:But I don't think to do it because there's some part of me that don't want to do it.
Guest:Well, for me, there's a fear thing.
Guest:If I set up a machine to record myself, I feel like it's going to suck.
Guest:You're going to be self-conscious.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's a superstition.
Guest:It's a superstition, which I'm full of and I'm working on that.
Guest:But then there are some times where it's just like there's something that's channeled.
Guest:It's not me thinking.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Marc:It just moves through you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It moves through you.
Marc:Things were delivered.
Marc:And I've always been very aware of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have bits that are funny enough the way they are, but I know I'm waiting for the tag.
Marc:It hasn't come yet.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And a couple of those things happen.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, this is... And it doesn't even matter whether I'm going to use it again or not.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It was like, where'd that come from?
Marc:Don't know.
Guest:Don't know.
Don't know.
Guest:I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows, but I think any of us that make things should just be happy for when they come.
Marc:But I do think, I question that sort of the weird superstition of setting a machine up, because I think, and I'm only speaking for myself, but I know that my superstition is sort of relative to how I've sort of mystified or ritualized my inability to fully accept how insecure I am.
Guest:yeah you know you know what i mean it's like on some level it's like to be a responsible artist it's like well might as well just record it what what for the fuck of it right not for any reason and even if you don't even listen to it again security where it's like well i'm recording this in hopes for some sort of breakthrough some sort of greatness so you fuck yourself yeah yeah so then it's like geez who the fuck do i think i am i'm not gonna set this up in hopes for greatness like and then maybe there's some sort of glimpse of greatness that comes out or just fuck i should have recorded it that would have been beautiful yeah
Guest:I would have had my next record.
Marc:So great.
Marc:But then there's that thing that we seem to like, which is that, well, that was only for that moment.
Marc:And that's amazing.
Guest:And I like and hate the fact that everybody has machines in their pockets now that can record everything that we're all doing at all times.
Guest:To play for an audience with cell phones up taking pictures and recording sucks.
Guest:I will say it's a bummer and it's distracting.
Guest:However,
Guest:If you have those great moments, you're like, I hope someone got that.
Marc:Absolutely, man.
Marc:I do.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I don't get enough of that.
Marc:I'm not one of those comics where people are like, I'm going to fucking steal that.
Marc:I'm going to put this up on YouTube.
Marc:But there have been moments like, nobody?
Guest:Nobody recorded?
Guest:Maybe it's more of a concert thing than it is a comedy thing.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:But have you ever reached out and said, did anyone get?
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:But there's definitely, like bringing my mom on stage for that show, I was like, fuck up.
Guest:I can't believe I didn't set that up.
Guest:But of course, my mom was like, I don't think we should do it.
Guest:Even before, it wasn't that planned.
Guest:And that's why it was good, because there was nervousness.
Guest:Did anyone get it?
Guest:Yeah, thankfully.
Guest:But I think that's why, if you're setting something up and recording it, it's almost like you have it planned out.
Guest:And when you're so confident that you've got it structured, you're not leaving cracks for the magic to see through.
Marc:Right, you get your brains in that.
Marc:right right but also oddly sometimes those things that you know that moved us or you know were significant to us on stage sometimes when you listen to me like no it wasn't that's true and sometimes when you feel like you had terrible shitty nights you listen back to it and you're like actually that that was pretty good and you know what you know when that happens you're fucking professional there you go
Guest:That word frees me out a little bit, but yeah.
Marc:But you know what I'm saying?
Marc:It's like, I thought we weren't in it, but we showed up.
Guest:Even when we suck, we're at least mediocre.
Guest:Yeah, we do all right.
Guest:It's our job.
Guest:Right.
Marc:All right, you want to play some songs?
Marc:Yeah, for sure, man.
Marc:Okay.
Ready?
Yeah.
Guest:It's taken so long So long to be The measure of the man I hoped I would be I take a step forward I take two steps back I can't help but be bored Unless I'm on the attack
Guest:And attacking's alright We were up on the hill Where the blueberries grow With time to kill I started to fall And it got hard to breathe It got hard to relax
Guest:It's hard to face yourself when you're still Busy looking back And attacking's alright My love, please understand My love, please understand
Guest:we're alone in this world doing all we can to find somebody to love and hold with a good warm heart cause it's getting cold oh honey please
Guest:try and understand it's time to love your man
Guest:I met a blonde girl.
Guest:She took me into her bed.
Guest:I wanted a body.
Guest:She wanted me dead.
Guest:On a cool summer evening, I woke from a dream.
Guest:I was scared of something that was inside of me.
Guest:My love please understand Jesse my love please understand
Guest:We're all alone in this world Every woman, every man Trying to find somebody To love and hold With a good warm heart Cause it's getting cold Oh honey please Try and understand
Guest:It's time to love your man Ooh, it's time to love your man guitar solo
Marc:awesome feel all right yeah good which one was that that was that's called on the attack you want to do a song for sid sure
Guest:As the earth stood still Sid began to move
Guest:I understood the words he said.
Guest:He understood mine too.
Guest:I watched Sid suffer.
Guest:I saw Sid strong.
Guest:Tell me where do the great ones go when they're gone?
Guest:He told me it would be alright To go and have fun He said he loved his family But it was time to run
Guest:I love that old man.
Guest:I wrote him this song.
Guest:Tell me where do the great ones go when they're gone?
Guest:I'm so glad I got to say goodbye When you run into Jack Sydney Tell him I said hi Don't you know I love those old men I pray the way they belong
Guest:all hanging where the gray ones go when they're gone.
Guest:Don't you know how I love that old man?
Guest:I wrote him this song.
Guest:Well, son, where do the great ones go when they're?
Guest:Where do the great ones go when they're?
Guest:Where do the great ones go when they're gone?
Guest:I love that old man I wrote him this song Tell me where do the great ones go When they're Where do the great ones go When they're Where do the great ones go When they're gone
Marc:Thanks man.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I appreciate you coming by.
Guest:Thank you brother.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Marc:What's your real name?
Guest:Sean.
Marc:Sean what?
Guest:Sean Clark Skolnick.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:But all names are made up my friend.
Marc:All right buddy.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:Do I need to remind you of that?
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:You can go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.
Marc:I've got some merch there.
Marc:I've got some other stuff.
Marc:You can leave a comment.
Marc:You can get the app, the free app, upgrade to the premium.
Marc:Get all that fun premium content with some of the new stuff that we're putting up there.
Marc:My partner and producer, Brendan, and I did some discussing of what we think are the deeper tracks that people might not listen to and why you should and
Marc:A little more of me, if you want some more of me, that's there.
Marc:Do that business.
Marc:You can get just coffee.coop at wtfpod.com.
Marc:LaFonda seems okay.
Marc:I took the cone off her head, as you know.
Marc:She's not scratching at her stitches, so I rolled the dice in a good way.
Marc:I feel okay.
Marc:I feel okay.
Marc:I don't know if it's because I'm finally relaxed after the shoot or if it's a slight shift in my brain chemistry that is temporary.
Marc:It'll probably pass.
Marc:Why even deconstruct it?
Marc:Why not just let it be?
Marc:My heart is soaring a bit.
Marc:That's what I will tell you.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:I will also tell you that Boomer lives!