Episode 465 - Simon Amstell
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck next?
Marc:What the fuck Adelis?
Marc:What the fuck a Barry Finn's?
Marc:What the fuck is sugar in us back?
Marc:Now I'm just making noises.
Marc:Hi, this is Mark Marin.
Marc:You're listening to WTF my podcast.
Marc:I'm once again
Marc:just by virtue of the sheer art of it, broadcasting naked from my garage.
Marc:I am naked in my garage wearing only a hat, a toque.
Marc:A toque?
Marc:Is that what you call it?
Marc:It's a fan-knitted toque I am wearing beneath my headphones, and that is all I am wearing.
Marc:I'm not trying to be titillating.
Marc:I'm trying to be open, man.
Marc:I'm trying to be as raw as possible in the sense of
Marc:How does it make me feel?
Marc:What am I feeling right now?
Marc:What is Mark feeling when he sits naked in his garage?
Marc:Because I got to walk across the little area there naked, so that's something.
Marc:It's invigorating.
Marc:I'm hoping it has an effect, if anything, on me.
Marc:On the show today, Simon Amstel, a British comedian who I saw a while back over at Largo, Flanagan's place.
Marc:And I thought, this guy seems a little uncomfortable, a little squirmy.
Marc:I'd like to talk to him.
Marc:I think we might have some things in common, me and this Amstel kid.
Marc:And I have a lovely chat.
Marc:And it covers a lot of things in a different way than I've talked about before.
Marc:British Jew.
Marc:that always fascinates me i don't know why before i forget before i forget okay yeah don't forget uh my special thinky pain an hour and a half of mark maron comedy is now available uh at amazon and other places where you buy dvds so go get that i'm proud of it you'll enjoy it
Marc:It was a little Tom Sharpling cameo, a little Sam Whipsight cameo.
Marc:It was an amazing night.
Marc:And if you don't know me, you'll get to know me.
Marc:If you know me, you'll know some of where I'm coming from.
Marc:Get it.
Marc:Get the special.
Marc:Because it's an hour and a half.
Marc:And now I've got to start from scratch and figure out what is going on in my life that is funny.
Marc:Moving on.
Marc:My brain was a little dinged up last night.
Marc:I went to a modern dance performance.
Marc:Yes, my friend Moon took me to a modern dance performance with a nine-year-old girl and an eight-year-old girl.
Marc:I don't spend a lot of time with kids because I don't got any.
Marc:And then the brother's kids are over there in Arizona.
Marc:There's only so much I can do.
Marc:But it was quite something, the modern dance business.
Marc:I guess he was a pretty important guy.
Marc:Wayne McGregor random dance.
Marc:The performance was far.
Marc:And it was down at the Royce Hall.
Marc:Look.
Marc:There's nothing we can do.
Marc:This stuff is going on all around us.
Marc:There are people committing their lives to dance.
Marc:And it's easy to condescend.
Marc:It's easy to dismiss.
Marc:But it is something, man.
Marc:I'm not sure how to watch it.
Marc:I'm not sure how to take it in.
Marc:But there is some skill and some rawness and some electricity and just physical...
Marc:There's awesomeness in the modern dance stuff.
Marc:I don't know what I'm looking at, but I know that the lights come down, people come out, they're jerking around, they're dancing, they're jumping up and down through the air, their bodies look beautiful, and I squirt out a few tears right away.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Just a couple of people come out dancing and I'm squirting out tears because I guess I'm moved by the humanity of it, by the humility of it.
Marc:Just bending around, flying through the air, twisting, contorting.
Marc:touching each other, doing things with each other, you know, back and forth stuff.
Marc:And then some other people come out, then a few other people.
Marc:My brain's kind of bending to sort of find narrative in it.
Marc:It's like, oh, is she with that guy?
Marc:I don't think she should be with that guy.
Marc:Oh, there's another guy.
Marc:Oh, the three of them together?
Marc:Now what's the problem?
Marc:Seems like someone's upset.
Marc:He just ran over to the other side of the stage.
Marc:Oh, who are these people?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Oh, they're doing that.
Marc:Look at him, moving around, moving around, moving around.
Marc:Now a little walking, a little moving around.
Marc:So who's with who?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:What's the story here?
Marc:Oh, everyone's laying down now.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Look at that guy.
Marc:How the hell did he do that?
Marc:He picked her up.
Marc:She's in the air.
Marc:I don't understand what's happening.
Marc:But it was pretty fascinating.
Marc:It's a beautiful art form, but I never go.
Marc:Do you guys go?
Marc:Do you ever think, like, let's go to see some modern dance?
Marc:I think it's one of those things where you're like, I don't know.
Marc:Usually it's almost like a traumatic experience from college.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I got dragged to one by this woman in college and nope, not going back.
Marc:I think that was the second time in my life that I sat down for a modern dance performance.
Marc:And it's important.
Marc:It's an important art form dance.
Marc:It's not unlike when I went to the opera or perhaps to the symphony where it's this organic human thing.
Marc:You can hear music.
Marc:You know, the feet scuttling on the ground.
Marc:You can hear when they touch each other.
Marc:And this particular performance had a lot to do with, like, jerky movement.
Marc:I don't know if it's the crunking or the twerking that has made its way into modern dance because I don't keep up.
Marc:I'm not on the mailing list as to what's being integrated from the streets into the vernacular of modern dance.
Marc:But I do have to say it was very impressive.
Marc:All in all, I was very happy I went because it was enriching.
Marc:It enriched me in the sense that it's like, oh my God, this is a way of expressing yourself.
Marc:This is something people do and it's amazing.
Marc:I just don't make time in my day for the arts.
Marc:And I think it's important as we drift further and further away from the vessels that we are, it's important to go witness a bunch of meat puppets dancing around, playing instruments and stuff.
Marc:That's not just rock and roll.
Marc:Good stuff.
Marc:Good stuff.
Marc:Still naked.
Marc:So what else is happening?
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Simon Amstel, and we bring up Daniel Kitson, who is a British comedian who many of you may not know, but you should familiarize yourself with him if you can find something of his to look at.
Marc:He's quite a genius and quite an interesting, unique voice.
Marc:And I just wanted to have you know that he is...
Marc:Not infamous, but a mythical presence almost in in British comedy, certainly.
Marc:And some Americans know him in that he like he won't do my podcast.
Marc:He doesn't do much TV.
Marc:He doesn't like to record himself necessarily.
Marc:He's just he's an oddball that is that keeps it very pure.
Marc:And I just wanted to give you a point of reference for when me and Simon start talking about him.
Marc:That's who he is.
Marc:Go see if you can find some stuff that Daniel Kitson fella.
Marc:What else do I got to tell you?
Marc:Oh, well, Moon showed me an amazing thing.
Marc:And I'm just going to hit you to this.
Marc:For those of you who are interested, I don't know what the hell chia seeds are all about.
Marc:I don't know why people eat them.
Marc:I don't know how people eat them.
Marc:They don't taste good to me.
Marc:I still, you know, I'm old enough to remember the chia pet.
Marc:And that to me is what they were used for.
Marc:But now everybody's eating them because, I don't know, somebody decided it was good and a bunch of other people decided to go along with it.
Marc:If you get some coconut milk and you put it in a glass and then you fill it about one to four, that's what I did.
Marc:You would go one to four chia seeds to coconut milk.
Marc:And I used unsweetened coconut milk and I put a little stevia in there.
Marc:So it's one part.
Marc:The chia seeds and then three parts coconut milk with a little sweetener.
Marc:And if you're not using sweetened and you put it in the fridge for like six hours or overnight and you wake up and you have like coconut tapioca pudding and it's fucking unbelievable.
Marc:How simple is that?
Marc:So needless to say, I think I've eaten my quota of chia seed for at least the week.
Marc:But that's a good time thing to do right there if you want something to do.
Marc:Also, tomorrow I am directing the final episode of Marin.
Marc:I don't think it'll air as the final episode...
Marc:But it's the final episode of my shooting of Marinette for IFC season two.
Marc:And I am directing.
Marc:I'm very excited.
Marc:I'm a little nervous.
Marc:But I think I got a handle on it.
Marc:And it's a very personal episode.
Marc:So that's thrilling.
Marc:And I also want to say that I got to be honest with you.
Marc:Shooting the second season of my show for IFC was just...
Marc:great it was a blast we got a lot of great scripts a lot of great people worked on the show the crew was great everything was amazing and i had a good time i'm trying to keep that on the down low i don't know why but i had a great time and i'm very proud of what we did there i'll let you know how the directing goes a little nervous but i got it i got powerful crew
Marc:We're working as a well-oiled machine.
Marc:So someone will pick up the slack when I don't know how to say, can we get an over here?
Marc:Or are we going to get coverage on both of those things?
Marc:Can we hinge here?
Marc:Where's the wedge?
Marc:Okay, let's do the master.
Marc:We're going to go in for close-ups.
Marc:I've heard a lot of these things used, but I'm not exactly sure what they mean.
Marc:So someone will clear that up for me, right?
Marc:Won't they?
Marc:Won't they?
Marc:Let's talk to Simon Amstel.
Marc:A British Jew.
Marc:Hilarious guy.
Guest:So I was in Texas.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's a man sat opposite me wearing a Marc Maron t-shirt.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You and a cat.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I say, how come you have a Marc Maron t-shirt?
Guest:Did you really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He looks surprised that I know it's a Marc Maron t-shirt.
Guest:I say it's because I'm a brilliant comedian.
Guest:And he says you got him through his divorce.
Guest:You got him through his divorce listening to this podcast.
Guest:Isn't that good to hear?
Marc:It's great to hear that.
Marc:That's the service I'm providing people.
Marc:There are people in pain, in trouble, and I think that the soothing tones of my trouble elevate them.
Guest:Your misery meant that his misery was a bit lessened.
Marc:Well, you're a little heavy-hearted, aren't you, in general?
Marc:Yeah, I love it.
Marc:That's all I've got.
Marc:I saw Num when you were here.
Marc:I came to that.
Guest:Yeah, I remember.
Guest:Largo, yeah.
Marc:And I immediately identified with you.
Marc:I don't remember exactly what the show was about, but I remember thinking, like, I get this.
Marc:I know exactly where he's coming from.
Marc:It's difficult being as self-conscious and heady as we are and moving through the world without being or appearing self-conscious and heady.
Yeah.
Marc:Do you have that issue?
Guest:Yeah, it's just tricky, isn't it?
Guest:Most people just drink alcohol, so it's all right.
Marc:You never drank.
Guest:I tried it when I was younger.
Guest:I just didn't like it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Didn't stick.
Marc:No.
Guest:Didn't take.
Guest:I tried drinking.
Guest:I tried smoking.
Guest:None of it felt right.
Marc:No relief.
Guest:No, nothing.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:The only thing I tried that I really liked, although I never really do it, is magic mushrooms.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I found those to be lovely.
Marc:How many times did you do that?
No.
Guest:I don't know, like three times in my life.
Guest:The first time I did it, I had a gig in the evening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought they'd sort of worn off.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:They were still there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was around the time where I was still, you know, on the circuit for five years trying to find, figure out who I was.
Guest:And I figured out that night who I was.
Marc:Did you remember it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, I can't take magic mushrooms every time I have to do a gig, but I can remember this feeling.
Guest:There was a looseness, a funniness that I found, a freedom.
Marc:A lightheartedness, perhaps.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you trace it to that moment?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I mean, apart from just doing it quite a lot, there was a feeling of, oh, this isn't important or this isn't hard.
Guest:This is just a group of people laughing.
Guest:This is just joyful.
Marc:Yeah, there's nothing to be afraid of.
Guest:Yeah, nothing to be afraid of.
Guest:And it was the same material, but suddenly I was finding just the joy in it, I suppose.
Guest:Just the joy.
Marc:Well, how old were you when you started doing stand-up?
Guest:Well, 13.
Marc:Yeah, at your bar mitzvah?
Guest:At my bar mitzvah.
Guest:No, 13, it was the annual variety show.
Guest:For real?
Guest:Yeah, of the drama club that I used to attend.
Marc:Okay, and you chose to do stand-up.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Did I kick you there?
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:That's all right.
Marc:So close.
Marc:Yeah, no.
Guest:What was I saying?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:I was a very shy child and a teacher suggested that I go to a drama club to bring me out of my shell a bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I guess I really got into it because I asked if I could do some stand-up comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And did you, had you, you'd seen standups before?
Guest:I'd seen some like late night television, like some stuff in the Montreal comedy festival was shown on channel four in the UK.
Marc:Is that where they show it?
Marc:Cause I, I've never, I know I've done this several of those, uh, those tapings, but I don't know where they show it.
Guest:Everywhere apart from America, right?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you saw some of that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I really, I liked, I don't know if it was just that I liked that it would just be me on the stage.
Marc:Probably.
Guest:But you know, I really liked, I think I, I liked the idea of it that they looked silly.
Guest:They looked fun.
Guest:Those people.
Marc:And they look like they had control of the situation.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's something... I remember seeing it when I was a kid.
Marc:I'm like, that guy's got... He's in charge there.
Guest:He's got a... But not in an alpha male way.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:In a way that I felt like I could emulate maybe.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because they were so sort of... You know, they were... I don't know.
Guest:In that way that...
Marc:They're entertaining, you know, and they seem to make people feel better.
Guest:Yeah, that's a nice thing to be able to do, isn't it?
Marc:Yeah, if it works.
Marc:If it works.
Marc:I don't think that was my specific agenda for half of my stand-up career.
Marc:I'm not sure I was in it to make people feel better.
Marc:I think I was actually in it to drag them down to the level I was at.
Guest:I don't know about you, but I think for me, the stuff that happens is purely coincidental.
Guest:It's a purely selfish act.
Guest:We're just doing it because we like doing it.
Guest:And the laughter is happening is good news.
Guest:And if anyone feels better because they relate to something, that's good news.
Guest:But really just doing it because we like it, right?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I think that for me, I really think I got up there to find myself.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I suppose that's... I mean, I don't know if I'm thinking about that just in hindsight and having heard Jerry Seinfeld talking about it being a thing of self-discovery.
Guest:And I go, oh, yeah, that is what it is.
Guest:But...
Marc:Well, I think that really because of what I grew up in, I don't know how you grew up, but we can talk about it, that my parents are very selfish.
Marc:So I think in order to sort of get attention, I had to be fairly kind of like dramatic about things.
Marc:And I think it was a way to get up on stage and like, I got something to say.
Guest:What do you mean by they were selfish?
Marc:They were very, you know, not great emotional boundaries.
Marc:Like, I really don't look at my parents as parents as much as these people I grew up with that, you know, seem to, you know, be around.
Marc:You know, they were not very nurturing people.
Marc:They were kind of self-involved.
Guest:Neither of them.
Guest:Both self-involved.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yours?
Hmm...
Guest:I suppose my story about myself is that I was sort of the product of a divorce.
Guest:So that first stand-up gig when I was 13, that happened in the same year that my parents divorced.
Guest:So I think it might have been a diversion thing.
Guest:I think I was trying to say, look, let's not be sad.
Guest:Look, I'm doing this over here, which I think I'm still doing.
Marc:Oh, that's so to avoid pain.
Guest:Yeah, to make my mom laugh rather than carry on crying, maybe a bit of that.
Marc:Well, that's a tough age to experience that at, because you're aware, you're coming into your own madness, whatever that is.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:I should have been just going through puberty.
Marc:Right, not dealing with that.
Guest:Instead, I was learning to do magic tricks and juggle.
Yeah.
Guest:Hide the tears.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Look, I'm juggling.
Guest:I'm juggling clubs.
Guest:Look, look.
Guest:I'm not crying.
Marc:Everything's fine.
Guest:Look, I'm not even, I'm not dropping them.
Guest:I'm not dropping them.
Guest:Please don't cry.
Guest:I won't drop them.
Marc:The crying magician.
Marc:That's a good angle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what were your, you grew up Jewish.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, only culturally, really, not religiously.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Other than the circumcision and the bar mitzvah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think that's the same with most Jews.
Marc:I think you just do your part.
Marc:The first one, you don't have any real control over.
Marc:Strange, though, isn't it?
Marc:That they just cut a piece of your dick off?
Marc:Strange.
Marc:It is a little weird, isn't it?
Marc:And there's a guy there.
Marc:There's a service.
Marc:People come.
Marc:It's not like just at the hospital.
Marc:It's usually done at a home.
Marc:There's a party.
Guest:I had a joke about they weren't even religious.
Guest:The buffet wasn't even kosher.
Guest:We don't care about that bit.
Guest:We just love the cock cutting.
Guest:That's our thing.
Guest:They did because it was the convention of the people around them, because they thought, we'd better cut off a bit of our child's penis, otherwise people would think we're weird.
Marc:Yeah, and so they'll be able to identify each other in the bathroom.
Guest:Yeah, so maybe a bit of that.
Marc:No, but I don't know what the original reason was.
Marc:But yeah, it is cultural, and everyone gets it.
Marc:I think most people are circumcised and they're not circumcised.
Guest:In America, is everyone circumcised?
Marc:It's not a law.
Marc:Parents can choose not to do it, but I think it's an option.
Guest:It's so strange.
Marc:I remember the first time I saw one that wasn't circumcised and I found it sort of off-putting.
Guest:Well, I remember the first time I saw a vagina.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just assumed that everyone had a penis.
Guest:Really?
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:I was 25.
Guest:That's such an old joke.
Guest:Yeah, you had to.
Guest:You know, like I was a kid in my garden, I think, and there was like the next door neighbor's, I don't know, girl child.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the hell is that?
Guest:What's she missing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She's all broken, that girl.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I noticed that, like, in your show... Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, vagina's not your thing anyways.
Guest:No, but, you know, I accept them.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:There's a lot of them around.
Marc:It's nice that you accept them.
Guest:Yeah, I came from one.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm into them, actually.
Guest:I'm really into them.
Marc:But the one thing I noticed about the... Like, that's different, but the idea that you're gay was not the theme of the show.
Marc:And you just didn't even really acknowledge it as anything to be like, and?
Guest:Yeah, it's not a thing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And was that a conscious choice, though, to sort of not?
Marc:Because like most gay comics that I've known, certainly American ones, I mean, that's their hook.
Marc:They're gay.
Guest:I suppose when I first came out, it was something I was thinking about a lot.
Guest:So I wrote about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But after that, I mean, it just hasn't been something that's really doesn't do anything.
Guest:You know, it's not in my life.
Guest:It's in my life.
Guest:Do I have a boyfriend or not?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, did something terrible happen when I was having sex or not?
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's not really...
Guest:And I'm sort of, I think, and to be more, you know, deep and adult about it, I suppose, I'm not really into any kind of label.
Guest:I think comedy is a thing that can bring people together rather than, you know, I'm not really into... And I don't like, you know, I don't like anything that's like...
Guest:Anything that's like, well, okay, so I'm a Jew and therefore something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, no, no, therefore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What about, what about, you know, it's always like, it's always a bit false.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's always like, yeah, it sounds sort of funny.
Guest:Oh yeah, you're a Jew and therefore this.
Guest:But actually you could have said, I'm a human being and therefore this.
Marc:No, I think that's, yeah, stereotypes, self-stereotyping to culturally identify is kind of tedious.
Guest:And it feels like so easy and untrue at the same time.
Guest:I watched a lot of Eddie Izzard when I was growing up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's a transvestite who is not really talking about being a transvestite.
Guest:And I quite like people who just happen to be the thing and it isn't their career.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but he did wear some spectacular outfits.
Guest:Yeah, but then didn't really go on about them.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:He comes out in the outfit, and then he's talking about Star Wars or whatever.
Marc:It's a little jarring.
Marc:So that had a big impact on you?
Guest:Yeah, I liked him a lot.
Guest:I liked him, and I liked Bill Cosby a lot, and Roseanne, those sitcoms.
Marc:Yeah, Bill Cosby's great.
Guest:I saw him at the Montreal Festival.
Marc:You did?
Marc:When?
Guest:Two hours.
Guest:I don't know, what was it, three or four years ago?
Marc:Was it life-changing?
Guest:It was a bit.
Marc:Why?
Guest:I had to rush straight to my show from seeing his show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And some of his cosbyness stayed in me from my show, and it made me a bit better.
Marc:I had the same experience with him, watching him again later in life, the sort of idea that you can really choose what's funny.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:There was something about him where it looked so effortless.
Marc:And it doesn't seem like he's processing any sort of not even it's not fear, but even structure in a way.
Marc:He's just sort of like, I'm going to do this.
Marc:I am who I am.
Marc:I'm going to sit down and we're going to move through this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't even want the applause at the beginning.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:He came on in this, you know, in like a tracksuit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sat on his chair and people were applauding like crazy because it's like this legendary man walking out and he's, you know, just like, you know, really waving his hand saying, please don't applaud.
Guest:This is just ridiculous.
Guest:Why would you come on?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Waste time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He sits down and, you know, then just starts talking, maybe fiddles with some tissues.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:And then there was a bit about like five, five bits in where he suddenly just says, and this is the only bit I can remember.
Guest:It's not funny, but it really made me go, wow, this guy has no fear.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He suddenly just said, the microphone level is about one notch too high.
Guest:Can we bring it down one notch?
Yeah.
Guest:So the microphone then gets lowered.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he carries on.
Guest:Doesn't make a joke about that.
Guest:Doesn't say... Just carries on.
Marc:Right.
Guest:The microphone is too high.
Marc:But he does say it like Cosby.
Marc:So you're already like... Yeah.
Marc:But you think, is this going?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And there's nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then when I did my show in Edinburgh a few years ago, the air conditioning was a bit loud.
Guest:And I remembered Cosby.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I said, can we turn...
Guest:But even I had to do a joke after that.
Guest:I had a fan on the stage.
Marc:Because of the fear.
Guest:Because I was like, I can't just leave that in the air.
Guest:I can't just carry on with my story.
Guest:But he had no fear.
Guest:He could just keep going.
Marc:So when you were 13, your parents get divorced.
Marc:What did your dad do?
Guest:Dad ran a sort of career company.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or owned and ran a career company.
Marc:Did you still get along with both of them after?
Guest:Dad became the enemy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and I've since sort of dealt with that, and obviously I sort of made that up.
Marc:How old were you when you finally dealt with it?
Guest:24.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's a long time, right?
Guest:Yeah, a long time to be sort of hating someone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you didn't see him when you were a kid either?
Guest:I did a bit.
Guest:I always found it quite boring.
Guest:I'd really bought into this story that he was the bad guy and that my mom was perfect.
Guest:Neither of those things are true.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Nonsense.
Marc:I'm going through a period right now with my father.
Marc:I'm 50 and I'm not talking to him.
Guest:You're not talking to him.
Marc:No, I'm going to have to.
Guest:Go on, what's going on?
Marc:He got offended by a book I wrote in a TV show because he was in it.
Marc:I characterized him.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I've done that.
Guest:I always get annoyed when my dad doesn't get annoyed.
Guest:Did you not see it?
Guest:No response at all?
Guest:Say something about it.
Guest:I did it.
Marc:How did you handle it, though?
Marc:Were you honest or did you throw him under the bus?
Marc:Was there spite?
Guest:No, I think the reason that there's no anger about it from him, or if there is, he's not doing anything about it.
Guest:I think what I'm always up to is coming from a place of self-discovery and just trying to figure things out.
Guest:It's never coming from, right, I'm going to get you now.
Guest:I'm going to do that.
Guest:Okay, now I'm going to tell him.
Guest:It's never that.
Guest:So I think it probably comes across that it's just me trying to figure out what has happened to me and why I am, how I am.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's I find it very healing, all the writing and the I, you know, brings me closer, I think, to him.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I when I looked at my stuff, I had to kind of figure it out.
Marc:Like, was there spite?
Marc:Was there a bit of payback?
Marc:You know, because when somebody's had an effect on your life, if it's negative, it becomes tricky to frame it.
Marc:You know, obviously, they're part of our lives and it is self-discovery.
Marc:But, you know, on some level, you're saying, well, that guy kind of fucked me up.
Marc:I love him, I think, but it's a problem.
Guest:So what did you say about him?
Guest:What was the bit that he wasn't keen on?
Marc:That he's bipolar.
Marc:And people know.
Marc:But he didn't want that many people to know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And a writer friend of mine, he said, what's his problem?
Marc:Bipolar is like diabetes.
Marc:Everybody's bipolar.
Marc:Who cares?
Marc:But he's very selfish, too.
Marc:So he thought it was going to have some major implications on his life.
Marc:But he's emailing me again.
Marc:So I think it's time to reach out eventually.
Guest:Oh, so you're not talking to him?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I just didn't want to deal with it.
Marc:I didn't want to deal with the negotiation.
Marc:The book was written.
Marc:The show was made.
Marc:There's no negotiating.
Marc:There's no conversation to be had other than it's happening.
Marc:Prepare yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Did you say prepare yourself?
Marc:Pretty much.
Marc:I said, look, I don't think... Well, he thought that something dramatic was going to happen in his life because of it.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:What did you say about your dad?
Guest:Well, in the last stand-up show, I spoke about how... In Numb.
Guest:Yeah, in Numb.
Guest:I spoke about how sometimes it's hard going over to his house.
Guest:It's not always fun.
Guest:And we didn't talk for a while, not for any reason, just a sort of lack of joy, really.
Guest:And then he phones and says, you know, I've been thinking and one day I'm going to be on my deathbed.
Guest:And if we don't have this relationship, there'll be regret.
Guest:So now I make sure I see him once every month or two, and I always regret it.
Guest:This is the worst line I think I've ever said.
Guest:I say, but you know, when he dies, I'm going to feel pretty good.
Guest:He didn't seem to mind that.
Guest:That seemed to be all right.
Marc:He saw it?
Guest:Yeah, he didn't come to see it.
Guest:You know, I think there are always moments with these people.
Guest:These people we call parents?
Guest:Yeah, where you forget that they've just got their own stuff going on to do with their parents.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And...
Guest:There was one time when he came to see a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was really pleased to come to see the show because my mum comes to everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she couldn't be more proud and too proud and it's too much sometimes.
Guest:And my dad, it's like, okay, come on, tell me I'm good.
Guest:Just tell me something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he came to the show and there was like a little party thing afterwards and he just left very quickly.
Guest:I was like, what do I have to do?
Guest:And sometimes after you've been on stage for an hour and a half, you think, how funny do I have to be, father?
Guest:What do I have to do for you?
Guest:So he left and I was like, okay, you know what?
Guest:He came, it's fine.
Guest:And then he emails the next day and he says...
Guest:He says, I'm so proud that not only can you do that on stage, but that you're able to be so sociable afterwards at the party.
Guest:And what I realised is that, because I was very shy as a child, I think he has the same shyness, but without going to the drama club.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he's not leaving the party because he hates me or he can't, you know, it's because he can't be at a party.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:He's the same sort of awkward person.
Guest:I learned that through writing Grandma's House, this sitcom that I made.
Guest:I was doing a scene with this...
Guest:actor who was playing him and you know i didn't even know during the writing of this scene with my father and i what it was about him that i like you know struggled with i realized it's that we're similar right and it's with like the same idiot that's the problem right and uh so it's you know it's
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what you're supposed to do with these people.
Marc:But no, but I mean, that's like an important realization.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you resent them because you have expectations of them that they're supposed to be.
Guest:It's the expectations.
Guest:It's always expectations.
Guest:What I learned from writing this sitcom about my family is that what I learned in terms of how you can be with your family at peace and completely content at some sort of family event is you have to go there and not expect them to be any different to how they were last time.
Yeah.
Guest:then it's fine yeah they're not going to change they're not going to if they do it won't be because of you won't be because you've tried to fix them and you know that's what i i mean that was the that was big right i was like oh they're just that's and then you find them funny then they're oh that's so funny that they're like that how ridiculous they're just people right and beyond that just sperm yeah they provided the sperm so i'm here what else do you want
Marc:But I think the fight is really that there was some expectation earlier to be parented a certain way.
Marc:So there's some part of you, if you do have some resentment about it in how you were parented, there's that same part of you is expecting to be parented.
Marc:And that fucking ship has sailed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So once you let that go, you realize, oh, you guys are just these people with weaknesses and character flaws and everything else.
Marc:And I just have to accept you as that and take up the slack.
Guest:And then you can go to, if you can, if you can get Oprah enough on yourself, being grateful for exactly how they were.
Marc:How are you with that?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've got a pretty cool, fun life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, the fact that I started doing stand-up when they divorced, I wouldn't be here.
Guest:I mean, in whatever this is.
Guest:What are we, in a shed?
Guest:In a garage, yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't be in this garage talking to you if they hadn't been exactly the parents that they were.
Marc:Big payoff.
Guest:Yeah, what a dream.
Guest:What a dream.
Guest:I mean, I could have been happy, but how lovely to be here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you really consider that moment at 13 the day you started stand-up?
Guest:It wasn't conscious at the time, but now if I look back at the dates, I think, oh, well, that's strange that those two things happened at the same time.
Marc:Do you remember what you talked about?
Guest:I was a really weird... It was a combination of stealing some stuff from those shows, like these weird Canadian comedians, and also, like, writing some stuff that was so... that was, like, really out of character...
Guest:But you were 13.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, well, in contrast to who I am now, I suppose.
Guest:I mean, there were jokes about environmentalists being a bit, like, smelly.
Guest:Like, really weird opinions to have.
Marc:13-year-old opinions.
Guest:Yeah, but it's like, why?
Guest:It was like, there was a thing about these environmentalists who care more about recycling their toilet paper than actually using it.
Guest:Who's that guy?
Marc:It's a poop joke.
Marc:It's a poop joke.
Marc:Give the 13 year old a break.
Marc:I suppose so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what was good is that there was some laughter for whatever reason, whether they just thought I was a weirdo or cute or something.
Marc:You're a kid.
Guest:And I like that.
Guest:I like that sound.
Marc:And yeah.
Marc:And when was the first time you started doing it in clubs?
Guest:18.
Guest:Well, no, actually, before that, there were like a few different competitions.
Guest:There was like a BBC New Comedy Awards competition.
Guest:So I was like 17 when I entered that.
Guest:And there was like, there were like about maybe 10 gigs between 13 and 18.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then at 18, I retired.
Marc:Yeah, good for you.
Guest:Then started again when I was 21.
Marc:Oh, is that true?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you go to college?
Guest:No, I got a job on a kid's cable channel, Nickelodeon.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where I sort of introduced the Rugrats and stuff like that.
Marc:Oh, so you were the guy in between the shows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hey, kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were a presenter of things.
Guest:Exactly, yes.
Marc:Reading the prompter.
Guest:And I thought, well, now I'm introducing the Rugrats.
Guest:I've made it.
Guest:What do I need this stand-up nonsense for?
Marc:Isn't that interesting?
Marc:Because I had a gig like that where I had already been doing stand-up a while, but I got a job hosting something.
Marc:I didn't want it.
Marc:It was not my dream, but I wasn't making any money.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But I remember being furious that I wasn't being written jokes and that, like, you know, it wasn't funnier.
Marc:I was like, come on, I got more than this.
Marc:Didn't you feel that frustration?
Marc:Like, I got to, you know.
Guest:I did and I got sacked in the end.
Marc:Because?
Guest:Because I kept trying to sort of be funny and it didn't suit, you know, it wasn't right for the, you know.
Marc:Did you miss comedy?
Marc:Were you in it for stand-up or were you in it just for a gig?
Marc:To get a gig like that?
Guest:No, I loved television.
Guest:When I was a kid, it was really more television than stand-up for me.
Guest:I worshipped certain TV hosts in the UK.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:Chris Evans.
Guest:I was just in love with everything he did.
Guest:The Big Breakfast and then TFI Friday and Don't Forget Your Toothbrush.
Guest:And I just, I just loved, I loved him.
Guest:And he was, you know, he was a weirdo.
Guest:He was like, he looked like an oddball.
Guest:And he commanded, you know, this, you know, this, these shows and invented them.
Guest:And I just thought he was really, he wasn't funny in the way a comedian is funny, but he was very natural and joyful and silly.
Guest:And so the job linking the shows on Nickelodeon was quite similar to the way The Big Breakfast worked.
Guest:I loved all the paraphernalia.
Guest:You got a clipboard and you got an earpiece.
Guest:There was a floor manager that you saw saying 5, 4, 3, 2, and all that stuff.
Guest:I couldn't believe that I was there doing it at 18.
Guest:And then what happened?
Guest:And then I was trying to be, I also loved hosts who were a bit sarcastic and a bit cheeky with the guests.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that didn't go down too well.
Marc:On Nickelodeon.
Guest:No.
Guest:And so they said, you can't be here anymore.
Marc:Did you have guests on that show?
Guest:Yeah, like pop, I got banned from interviewing the pop stars and because I, because they were terrible.
Guest:They were terrible.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like bands.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Real, real like cheesy, horrific pop.
Guest:they were trying to cater to kids yeah right now i know i know right now and then yeah but didn't you go on to more hosting gigs very thank thankfully there was then a pop show yeah on channel four the needed a sarcastic presenter which one it was called pop world it was on channel four and it ran for five years
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So you were on for five years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you started doing stand-up again during that.
Guest:Because I felt like, oh, we've sort of got a good vibe.
Guest:It was myself and a girl called Makita Oliver, and we had a very good chemistry together.
Guest:But I thought this show could be funnier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think the way to make it funnier is if I find out that, you know, figure out how to be funny again.
Guest:And I started doing stand-up again.
Marc:Because when I, I actually didn't meet you, but the first time that I was aware of you was, I was doing a show downstairs, or was it upstairs?
Marc:Downstairs in the Soho Theater.
Marc:And you were doing one upstairs.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you were packing them out.
Marc:I just remember there were people there, like girls were lining up and like you were very popular.
Marc:And I remember like, who's that guy?
Marc:And I remember someone told me like, oh, he had a show on TV and the teenagers love him.
Guest:And what did you think?
Guest:Oh, right, okay.
Marc:Yeah, I'm like, oh, he's not even a comic.
Guest:He's not a comic, just some teenage girls.
Marc:I'd find them.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Then I'd feel great.
Marc:Yeah, just some cute guy that's doing a thing.
Guest:Well, I'm thrilled to be called a cute guy, so I'm just happy with that.
Marc:When was that?
Marc:It was only a few years ago.
Marc:Do you remember that when you did some stuff at the Soho?
Guest:I think it might have been some work in progress that probably led towards the Numb show in the end.
Guest:But it was a struggle for me because... Because you did have that reputation on television as being a certain guy.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't want to be sarcastic and cheeky on stage and stand up.
Guest:I wanted to be... I don't know if I wanted to be, but I wanted to deal... I wanted to figure out who I was.
Guest:I wanted to deal with what was going on.
Guest:in my life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so it turned out to be a bit more sensitive and a bit more thoughtful.
Marc:It's hard to make that jump.
Guest:Yeah, especially if people are expecting something different.
Marc:You were willing to risk losing a couple?
Guest:Yeah, because also my heroes were people who were really like people like Daniel Kitson and Stuart Lee would say things on stage like they're just, you know, they're not trying to build their audiences.
Guest:They're trying to narrow them down to the right people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why I really went with that.
Guest:But I think too much.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I mean, I think I've talked to Stuart when I was in England, and he's great.
Marc:I mean, the reason he quit stand-up and then the way his attitude about it changed coming back was fairly empathetic because that is a big... For a guy like him who was hammering away for a long time with a very specific point of view...
Marc:who eventually got angry at people who didn't understand him to the point where he had to split, and then to come back and then realize, well, it's not their fault.
Marc:This was not their idea of an entertaining evening.
Marc:He said something very profound to me where he was looking out at somebody who wasn't understanding him and actually felt like, I'm sorry.
Marc:There's nothing I'm going to do that's going to bring you into this.
Marc:You just made the wrong choice tonight, and we're just going to have to live with that.
Guest:that's so yeah it's peaceful that isn't it it kind of is turning i used to do a load of i used to turn the if there was a sort of older guy in the front row he'd definitely be my father that night you know do a load of stuff i mean it wouldn't be my father but i'd sit in yeah you know i'd do a whole yeah and uh they're just people yeah they're just people coming for a nice time right and and not unlike the parents thing you said a lot of times when they seem to not be paying attention who the fuck knows what their day was like yeah
Marc:You know, I've been to shows.
Marc:I mean, you're going to sit at a show and okay, okay, that was funny.
Marc:And then maybe you're going to be like, I got to do that thing tomorrow.
Marc:What?
Marc:Oh, you know, like you're going in and out of whatever the hell your life is.
Guest:Or I've fallen asleep in the front row of shows in Edinburgh because I was really tired.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:It must be a terrible rejection.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was just tired.
Guest:I shouldn't have sat in the front row.
Yeah.
Guest:But horrible, horrible.
Marc:Kitson's like, he's an interesting thing.
Marc:He won't talk to me.
Guest:He won't talk to you.
Marc:On a mic.
Marc:He's a very principled person.
Marc:What's the principle?
Guest:What do you think the principle is?
Marc:Well, they're his.
Marc:I don't know that there's not like a book of kits and principles, but I think that he clearly has, whether he'd call it an aesthetic vision for himself or not, he's got a way he's going to do things, and that's all there is to it.
Guest:Yeah, he's got a perfect life in terms of his career.
Guest:He doesn't have to worry about any of the external nonsense that other people have to worry about.
Marc:He doesn't do... He's a pure comic, a pure stage performer, right?
Marc:He doesn't do TV.
Marc:He does some spots on TV, but he's not looking for a TV job.
Marc:He is what he is.
Marc:Yeah, and it's... How would you explain... Because a lot of my audiences probably don't know him, and they're not going to hear him on here because he won't do it.
Marc:And there's a limited amount of stuff they can watch of his.
Marc:He's really like a pure live performer.
Marc:Either you're going to see him live or that's it, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and sometimes, like, really late at night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or really early in the morning.
Guest:And he does everything he can so you don't come and see him.
Marc:He's almost a savant-like person.
Guest:He's annoying.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's just annoying.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Funny, though, right?
Guest:Oh, no, he's great.
Guest:He's the best.
Marc:I saw him do almost, like, the last time I was in England, I saw him do...
Marc:Play it wasn't really stand-up, but it was there was a story to it was it him sat behind a table No, it was about some I can't even remember exactly what it was but it had to do with Finding a manuscript of some kind by somebody and he built it like it was it was definitely a theatrical monologue Yeah, that wasn't stand-up that was based on a fictional character I think that he created who was a writer and
Marc:um and it was it was fairly dense in a way because he's very multi-leveled guy but it certainly wasn't stand-up and uh it was challenging i mean it was challenging content wise you know because you're sitting there like well is there is this a comedy is it is it not a comedy it was very thoughtful and i think a little bit experimental but i i definitely respected him for that
Guest:I think what's good about him and what I'm a bit jealous of, apart from his talent, is that he isn't interested in show business.
Guest:He's really only interested in what he gets up to on that stage.
Guest:Yeah, no, I agree.
Guest:I grew up kind of loving things on television, and I was just in New York, and a friend of mine, his father was directing a film that Morgan Freeman and Diane Keaton were in.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And I got to be on the set of that film, and it was thrilling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, not just thrilling because those people are named, but I got to see them act.
Guest:I got to see Take Two, Take Three.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got to see how they do what they do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's a thrilling film.
Guest:show business moment in my life yeah and if you if you if you have you know if you have uh the desire to be part of show business then there's a whole load of other shit that goes on with with what we're up to here yeah you know there's a lot of marketing that has to go on there's appearances and there's talking to people and there's you know there's a whole load of stuff
Guest:yeah and uh and you know you want to write a thing for television you want to do you know you want to write a film and so i'm i'm jealous that he doesn't have any of those desires seemingly right then and he's at peace with it he's at peace but he can just be he can just make his thing yeah and uh but it's it's it's annoying
Guest:You know, it's annoying because I feel like, you know, I drive myself insane all the time about, oh, should I be doing this?
Guest:What should I be, you know, is this still art?
Guest:You know, all this sort of stuff.
Guest:And, you know, he's over there and he's fine.
Guest:He's also going to really enjoy us talking about him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Well, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Marc:He becomes the barometer of integrity.
Marc:He is, you know, he is the precedent that, you know, like, you know, none of us can attain Kitsonhood.
Guest:The truth is, he's the biggest egomaniac of all of us.
Guest:Maybe not more than you.
Marc:Well, I think that's true on some level because he's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's respected for that.
Marc:And he is able to be humble with it because the other things don't even enter his mind.
Marc:He doesn't want to do it.
Guest:But I think I'm working harder.
Marc:No, maybe that's true.
Marc:Maybe I'm not on the specific things that he is, but yes.
Marc:Well, what is it that you want ultimately?
Marc:I mean, you're here, you're in town to do the radio lab thing.
Guest:Yeah, that's why I was in Texas.
Marc:Oh, with radio.
Marc:So you're touring with... A little bit, just four shows.
Guest:And I'm doing a couple of spots here and there.
Guest:And various high-powered meetings so that I can make it in this town.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's it.
Marc:So, like, it's hard for British comics, in a way, because there's a handful of them that have found success here, and then there's a lot that don't, you know, either come or don't click.
Marc:So it must be an extra added bit of challenge to sort of appeal to American audiences and find your way.
Guest:I found it easier, actually, when I was in New York last year doing seven weeks.
Guest:It was like a residency at this small theater in St.
Guest:Mark's.
Guest:I found it easier, actually.
Guest:It was easier being this new guy that people were excited to see than when I went straight to Edinburgh afterwards and then had that whole thing of, oh, do these people like me for this?
Guest:I had a load of stuff that I was making up in my head.
Marc:Right, you're the new guy here.
Guest:Yeah, it was lovely to be the new guy.
Guest:It's really exciting to be this strange new person.
Marc:And what about the idea of themed shows?
Marc:Because that's not an American thing, and that is sort of, I think, something that came out of Edinburgh, is that every year you go back, you've got to name your hour, and you've got to think, is it a story, is it not a story?
Marc:I imagine that sometimes those shows are not necessarily theatrical pieces as much as a way to frame stand-up.
Marc:What were the different themes of your shows as each year went by?
Marc:What was the first show you did at Edinburgh?
Guest:Gosh.
Guest:Well, the first one that was named was called No Self.
Marc:And what was that about?
Marc:What was the angle?
Guest:That was about this sort of Buddhist idea that we need to get beyond illusory attachments, labels, anything you think, this is me.
Guest:I am this guy in these clothes.
Guest:Anything that was kind of made up.
Guest:I was trying to figure out who I was beyond all those things.
Marc:And were you able to do that?
Marc:Did you try that stuff?
Marc:I mean, did you try to sort of move the ego aside to get at the true kernel of Simon-ness?
Marc:Oh, you know, you'd have to lose Simon.
Guest:Yeah, no Simon, no names.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No names.
Guest:I think actually it was, I think it probably wasn't as funny as it could have been.
Guest:I think it, looking back, I think it was a bit silly.
Marc:But did you engage in those meditation practices?
Marc:Did you try to do that stuff?
Guest:I think at the time I was more theoretical, and now I practice meditation.
Guest:Now I'm more into the actual work of it.
Marc:Well, didn't you tell a story in the show about some sort of retreat?
Marc:Am I remembering properly?
Guest:In Numb, I spoke about going to Peru, yeah.
Marc:What was that about?
Marc:You actually went to Peru?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what was the reason?
Guest:To drink ayahuasca.
Marc:Oh, so this is a hallucinatory journey.
Guest:It was, yeah.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:I mean, you don't have to do the bit word for word, but I've read about that.
Marc:I know William Burroughs was into it.
Marc:Castaneda was into it.
Marc:But I never sought it out back in the days when I did do drugs.
Marc:But you got compelled by who?
Marc:What spurred you on to say, like, I'm going to try that?
Marc:Was it foreign material or were you really looking for something?
Guest:No, I was really... I was just inspired by an old school friend who, at a dinner we had, told this story about going to this place.
Guest:And as he told this story, he looked like an eight-year-old boy.
Guest:Like, he was just so full of joy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how...
Guest:Just how he'd been sort of healed, I suppose, by this medicine.
Guest:They were sort of keen to call it a medicine rather than a drug because otherwise it gets lumped in with things like cocaine and all this sort of stuff that isn't very helpful at all.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And this has been used by the indigenous people for thousands of years to heal them.
Guest:It's medicine.
Marc:But what did you think you needed to be healed of?
Marc:I mean, were you hitting some sort of bottom with yourself?
Guest:Yeah, I'd been in therapy for about two years.
Guest:I felt like it was very helpful, but it felt like there was something that I couldn't resolve, like there was some sort of hidden memory that I couldn't get at.
Marc:Were you depressed or anxious?
Guest:Yeah, and I had so many appointments.
Guest:I was depressed, and every day there'd be another thing.
Guest:There'd be, okay, go to the acupuncturist, go to the yoga, go to the osteopath.
Guest:I looked at my diary, and I thought, how broken do I think I am?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was quite broken.
Right.
Marc:Really?
Marc:How was it manifesting itself, though?
Guest:I mean, what in your life was not... Well, the show was called None because I stopped feeling anything.
Guest:My defense mechanisms had become so strong that I'd protected my entire self against the whole world and anything that could happen.
Guest:Pain?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, okay, well, I'd sorted life out so that I couldn't feel any pain, but then I couldn't feel anything.
Marc:So that's interesting because I've had periods in my life where you're like, am I completely detached or am I evolved?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I felt that because all the Buddhist teachings are about this is just a moment.
Guest:This is not real.
Guest:This is not real.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I'm not really feeling anything about that person dying.
Guest:So I guess I'm a brilliant Buddhist.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm living it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, we're not.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:No, we're not.
Guest:That's what you learned.
Guest:I was just numb, just totally numb.
Guest:And, you know, and because I don't drink alcohol or don't do drugs or anything, so there would just be a lot of Ben and Jerry's ice cream and stuff.
Marc:Yeah, no, I'm there with you.
Marc:So were you able to track, like, when it happened or had you been feeling it your whole life?
Marc:Did it evolve?
Marc:Do you know, like, were you able to say, like, I've always been numb or at some point, you know, something got hurt inside of me where I'm like, I'm done.
Guest:It's a bit personal but in the second ceremony, there are four ceremonies and in each one you're sort of sat in a circle in darkness and you drink this drink and I found myself like in the womb and then I found myself
Guest:you know i sort of was aware of myself in the room with these people but also as a baby and and then in the pram and then i sensed things that were going on and i don't know what this is yeah you know so i'm just i'm just i don't know what this is but i i sensed things that were going on when i was a baby that i would not be able to remember and wouldn't be able to bring up in therapy right and i resolved those during the ayahuasca ceremony
Guest:And then felt like I wasn't broken anymore.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I thought, oh, yoga for just the joy of doing yoga.
Guest:There was a moment where I talk about in the stand-up becoming a cat in the ceremony.
Guest:It all becomes quite primal.
Guest:And you sort of remember that we're both guys here.
Guest:you know sat her in shirts yeah and you're wearing glasses yeah major beard like that but we're just animals with spit and blood and yeah you know we're just animals really and i sort of became a cat in this ceremony and sort of you know you know really like i was like ferocious i was like um like and i'd always become like a timid sort of okay well i guess i'm sort of like just a nice sort of like a nice sweet guy i was a maniac
Guest:cat guy in this thing and sexual.
Guest:All these things are a bit sort of embarrassing and a bit like, ugh, I can't be that guy.
Marc:But you were in it.
Guest:I was in it.
Guest:I was just, yeah, I'm going to... It wasn't, you know, it was just, it was natural and I wasn't blocking...
Guest:uh i wasn't blocking any aspect of myself i was able to be completely free okay so the yoga uh like you know i've got to do yoga because i'm like my posture and now i and then i had a moment where i thought cats don't do yoga they just sort of stretch because they're cats yeah and that so that sorts them out and so uh so that stayed with me that idea that i i'll just do that because of the joy of doing it or or uh
Guest:You know, just doing something not for the results, just for the joy of doing it.
Guest:It's really helped with everything.
Guest:It's helped with the stand-up to remember that I enjoy it.
Guest:It's not to get anywhere.
Guest:Even doing something like I did Lesserman when I was in New York a few weeks ago.
Marc:I watched that.
Marc:It was good.
Guest:Was that all right?
Marc:Well, it was interesting because you had that... I'm very sensitive to performers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it makes sense what you're saying now because there was a moment where when you stepped out there, you're like...
Marc:I'm here.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I could feel that you connected.
Marc:I can identify that because I tend to work like that where I offer more of myself than might be safe necessarily, but it's worth it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Some guys just go do their act.
Marc:And I knew you were doing stuff that you had planned.
Marc:But there was definitely about 30 seconds where you were like, just you.
Marc:And that's a it's a tremendous risk.
Marc:But the rewards of that are great because then people are listening to you in a different way.
Marc:You know, you're not just a guy reeling off jokes, but you're like this this person that's having this moment.
Marc:And that's the best you can really help for.
Guest:That's very nice of you to say.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah, but it was terribly overwhelming.
Guest:I had to go there two days before just to sort of be in the theater.
Guest:Just because I thought I'm going to be too nervous.
Marc:Are you a fan of Letterman?
Marc:Yeah, I love him.
Marc:The best, right?
Marc:The best.
Guest:And stole so much from him when I was on those shows hosting.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Just tactics?
Guest:I just did him for a while.
Guest:And so it was very strange to be there.
Guest:And I was ready, you know, because I thought I'm just going to... Because you can think about... There's so much that goes through your head with something like that because it feels like it's a career move and it's a big rite of passage and it's all this nonsense.
Guest:And I thought, what about if we just enjoyed this five minutes?
Guest:Did you?
Guest:Well...
Guest:Maybe I enjoyed one minute.
Guest:I certainly found some joy in there.
Marc:But it's a very heightened moment because I feel the same way about him.
Marc:And I remember my first time.
Marc:You know, the great thing about it is that you are in a genuine theater.
Marc:You know, you're not in a TV studio.
Marc:So there is that moment where, you know, you want to try to remember that there are cameras there.
Marc:But, you know, just by nature of being a performer, a stand up, you're like, well, I'm in a theater a little further back than I should be.
Marc:But, you know, there's there's an audience there and they're hot.
Marc:You know, they're ready to go.
Marc:And I bet you work that four and a half minutes, man.
Marc:I mean, you know, like you're like it's it's hard for guys like us who do fairly long form stuff to isolate, you know, enough beats to to do four and a half.
Guest:And it's a strange thing to do.
Guest:Like it's it's already a comedy show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So for him to then go and now some stand up comedy, it's like, what for?
Marc:But it's established.
Guest:I know, but I couldn't figure out why I was there.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:I couldn't figure out, like as I walked out.
Marc:You're overthinking that.
Marc:Yeah, I suppose.
Marc:You were there to do stand-up.
Guest:Yeah, I know, but I think that it shouldn't ever look like that.
Guest:There should always be something that it's, like when I did this show called Nevermind the Buzzcocks in the UK, and that was like a pop show that, you know, it was a comedy show pretending to be a pop show.
Marc:You know, they tried that here.
Guest:With you, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With you.
Guest:But you killed it.
Guest:You made it so it would never work again.
Marc:I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Not on purpose.
Marc:I just didn't quite.
Marc:I never I don't think I fully understood the game.
Marc:And I'm not sure that I never did.
Guest:I did it for three years.
Guest:And I was always like, this is such a stupid game.
Guest:Why are we doing this?
Marc:Well, I think that's one of the reasons it didn't work, aside from the fact that I was not in a good place in my life when I got that.
Marc:I needed money.
Marc:I don't know that I would have taken the job otherwise, and I'm not sure I was the right guy to do it, but I don't know that Americans really gravitate towards games without stakes.
Marc:Like, it's really just an improvisational comedy show in the framework of a game show that's based on pop music.
Marc:And I just don't think if there's no money changing hands and there's, you know, there were just no stakes to it.
Marc:No.
Marc:And yeah, I think we did some funny stuff, but it just there was a whole shift going on with that network.
Marc:It just didn't work.
Marc:Thank God.
Guest:did it hurt when i said that you ruined it no no i knew i did no i was just joking i never saw it i was just joking well i don't know that i ruined it but i don't know that um i i was really you know what i think it's the there's a culture in this uh country of the uh the talk shows yeah and there's a culture in in the uk of those panel shows and i think that maybe it just doesn't uh they don't we don't really have those five nights a week talk shows right and you don't really have those panel shows is that what it's called it's a panel show yeah
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:There's some of them now.
Marc:They kind of come and go.
Marc:Hardwick's doing one where it's framed as a game show, but there's no stakes.
Marc:It's just for fun.
Marc:But what I'm saying is, Mark, there's nothing you could have done.
Guest:It's not your fault.
Guest:It's not your fault.
Marc:Thank you for letting me off the hook.
Marc:Are you speaking for your entire country?
Guest:Mark, it's not your fault.
Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It's not your fault.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:But it kind of was... It's not your fault.
Guest:There's nothing you could have done.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:You were just a child.
Marc:I know.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:It wasn't my fault.
Marc:I was a child.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I couldn't have known.
Guest:You couldn't have done anything different to what you did.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:You did what you knew how to do.
Marc:That's exactly right.
Guest:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's an important lesson in real life.
Guest:Huge, huge.
Marc:That, you know, like, know your limitations and also, you know, know what you can and can't do.
Marc:And then don't do something and then beat yourself up.
Marc:Because I used to do that.
Marc:I don't know if you do this.
Marc:I do things where, you know, I couldn't have done it any differently.
Marc:I think I do things to beat myself up for.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Do you ever do that?
Marc:I'm just hard on myself.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Like, go on, talk to me.
Guest:Talk to me about what?
Marc:I make decisions in my life where it's sort of like, I probably shouldn't have done that.
Marc:And I do it knowing going into it that I shouldn't do it.
Marc:And then when I do it, I'm like, well, it was okay.
Marc:But I still pick at it.
Marc:I'm just realizing this because I just got out of a relationship that I'm very hard on myself.
Marc:And when you're in a relationship, you just let the other person be hard on you.
Marc:And you're so engaged with their issues that you don't think of it.
Marc:And then when you get out, you're like, oh my God, I'm still insecure.
Marc:I'm still a little hard.
Guest:yeah yeah because it's it's in i don't know what it is difficult being alive isn't it for some people no i think for everyone and some people sort of hide it or they they're not one has a podcast where they bang on about that's right that's right but i know but i think that's i think it is easier for some people because they've done some of the stuff that we're talking about they've accepted something but then you always it's almost harder because you then you beat yourself up because you think oh i know this yeah i know how did i do that again
Marc:Well, can you identify that moment where you said you realized that when you were in the womb or wherever that were you... Now it just sounds ridiculous.
Marc:No, it's not ridiculous.
Marc:But can you identify what exactly got shaken loose to enable you the freedom that you now have, the comfort or the idea that... Was it basically like stop taking everything so seriously, be present?
Guest:No, it was...
Guest:No, it's a bit too... It's a bit too... Okay.
Guest:Mmm...
Guest:Okay, so if you don't mind me being slightly vague, I witnessed as that baby during this experience, this ceremony, being present for something going on between my mother and father, that the baby version of me felt like it needed to do something to stop it from happening.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Then something in the ayahuasca, because it acted like a sort of therapeutic conversation for me.
Guest:I don't know if it acts like that for everyone else, but it acted like therapy for me, probably because I'd just been doing two years of therapy, and that was the language.
Guest:It said to me, like I just said to you jokingly, you were just a child.
Guest:You couldn't even crawl, it said.
Guest:You couldn't even crawl.
Guest:And I start crying, and I realize I forgive the baby.
Guest:I forgive the baby.
Guest:And then there's this great release.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So many connections got made.
Guest:When I felt that baby feeling what was going on in that room, everything tensed.
Guest:My stomach tensed, my shoulders rounded.
Guest:I had very bad posture and was very shy as a child.
Guest:Everything seemed to make sense from that point.
Guest:Now, I might just be making it all up and it might just be that whatever happens in that medicine just gives you what you need to know in order to let you get to the next stage.
Guest:But everything seemed to make sense.
Guest:And I thought, oh, I'm fine.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm fine, actually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, nothing's wrong.
Marc:But that moment, whatever that shame moment was, had defined a good part of your life.
Guest:Yeah, it made me feel like I couldn't go to parties as a kid.
Guest:I couldn't leave my mother.
Guest:I used to grab onto my mother's leg.
Guest:It made me feel like I needed to protect and save and fix.
Guest:And it was a nonsense.
Guest:It was a false perception that I had as a baby.
Marc:And that had been ingrained in your wiring, deep.
Guest:Completely unconscious.
Guest:And so after that, there was a freedom.
Guest:There was a feeling like I wasn't broken.
Guest:self-acceptance yeah self-acceptance yeah yeah i suppose all that sort of stuff yeah yeah that's fucking great yeah it feels good doesn't it yeah and then i have to remember it though because i still still i slip in and out of uh you know there are still moments obviously when i still feel like oh god why why get out of bed and do what for right you know and then you know the worst sentence is and then what right because once you've done some stuff
Guest:This may be the opposite of your story, really, because your story is really that there were opportunities that you missed when you were younger, and that now it's all sort of happening for you, right?
Marc:Kind of, but I mean, no, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Marc:Is that, like, you have to fight meaninglessness
Guest:You have to fight meaningless, exactly.
Guest:And why I mention that is because my story was that, you know, I was working since I was 18 and there was this pop show and this comedy show and they made a sitcom and doing lots of stand-up and things and a special and another special.
Guest:And I always feel like even at the start of an Edinburgh festival of a month long festival, you know, you build up to this hour long show.
Guest:And then after the first night of the month, if it was a film, if that was a film, you know, the credits would roll after that first night.
Guest:You're bowing, the applause credits roll.
Guest:But it's not.
Guest:You then have to do it again for 29 nights.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And you think, well, what?
Guest:And it's always in them.
Guest:And when I made the sitcom that we did in the UK, I thought, well, that's just going to be it.
Guest:That's going to be the thing.
Guest:And then I can retire.
Marc:Right.
Guest:retired of what though I don't know but I just thought I'm tired yeah it's exhausting writing that thing and acting and you know editing and I thought I'm just gonna but no but then people say what were you up to in the moment I just did a thing yeah it's on DVD yeah it's
Marc:i'm in the middle of this right now like i mean like because i'm doing uh the second season of my tv show right and you're just sort of like like you know i did one it was i did one yeah yeah if we were in a tribe and we were the people who brought the berries yeah people would say thank you for the berries they wouldn't they wouldn't go oh any any more berries coming up well maybe those berries yeah
Marc:But you brought him, so you need to bring us more.
Marc:You're the guy who knows how to get the berries.
Marc:That's the problem.
Guest:Yeah, but it's a ridiculous complaint, though, isn't it?
Guest:Because of what a joy to do this and all that stuff.
Guest:But it's hard sometimes.
Marc:But it's still work.
Marc:I mean, work is work.
Marc:But that whole idea of... I haven't experienced it until recently, because I'm no longer in a relationship, where I'm just sitting with myself, and you're just sort of like, what's the fucking...
Marc:Point of all this he almost a relationship for three and a half years.
Marc:That's a long time But I've been through this before I mean, but like but like I don't know because You'd want to identify it as depression, right?
Marc:But I don't think it is depression.
Marc:I I think it is some sort of Over being overwhelmed
Marc:Like I feel that whatever I would identify as depression is just this weird anxiety that gets to such a pitch to where I'm exhausted.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, I mean, things are very simple and there are some joys in life that don't revolve around eating ice cream and jerking off.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Name them.
Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I mean, I've been told.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you still battle with that on some level.
Marc:You still sort of like one day you wake up and you're like, ugh.
Guest:It's just the thinking part of us is overdeveloped and the feeling part of us is underdeveloped.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:To be really simplistic about it.
Marc:We're just thinking too much.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Cats just wandering around eating and shitting.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, if we just...
Guest:All the things that we have to think about as human beings, like the ambition, the competition.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:I mean, it's madness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we've got the Internet.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:I mean, cats don't have the Internet.
Marc:It's easier.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's easier.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It's much easier.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They don't have that forward thinking, really.
Marc:They don't have a recollection that is vivid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think what you have to do is, I think this is why religion exists probably, is because you have to then put rules in place so you don't do things like wake up and get straight onto the laptop and checking your emails.
Guest:You have to meditate first.
Guest:If I don't meditate for three days, I get quite grumpy.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So how often do you meditate?
Guest:Every morning.
Marc:Like for how long?
Two.
Guest:20 minutes.
Guest:It's become a bit looser since going to Peru.
Guest:It's become a bit of a looser experience for me.
Guest:It's become a bit more weird and primal.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's your process?
Marc:I mean, if you were going to tell me, okay, Mark, you need to start meditating.
Marc:Here's what you do to start.
Guest:Find a nice seating position.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:don't uh don't do anything other than uh be aware of of what's going on close your eyes and just be aware of the sounds maybe and don't try to and things when then thoughts come up yeah don't try to get rid of those thoughts yeah i mean i'm not an expert but don't try and get rid of those thoughts just go oh there's a thought yeah okay then it goes yeah then something oh memory oh
Guest:Okay, there it goes.
Guest:Oh, that's the sound from traffic.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then what that does is it's not just for the sake of that.
Guest:It then trains your brain.
Guest:So the next time, let's say you're in an argument or something or something comes up, then you go, oh, it's just a person saying those words.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then everything's fine.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or whatever it is.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Letterman.
Guest:Okay, I'll go into a spot.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Marc:This will be over soon.
Guest:This will be over soon.
Guest:No, you've got to be in the moment.
Guest:No, right.
Marc:That's the key.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:That's the worst.
Guest:I got up this morning.
Guest:So I'm basically doing these.
Guest:Well, I'm doing three things today.
Guest:And this is the middle one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, part of me goes, you know, because I'm a bit tired.
Guest:I think, oh, I'll just get today done.
Guest:And then there'll be tomorrow.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And then I thought, what about enjoy today?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What about really enjoy doing this podcast with Mark Maron?
Guest:That's a fun thing to do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Do you have dread?
Marc:I have dread sometimes.
Guest:Do you have dread?
Guest:I have dread.
Guest:It's so funny.
Guest:This whole situation is so funny.
Marc:But that's what you're talking about, like with the tomorrow thing.
Marc:It's like anytime you're... Not so much like that, but it's like, all right, well, this is fun.
Marc:We're doing this, but like, oh, fuck, in two hours I have to...
Marc:okay you know it's not like uh it's not like oh no but it's sort of like ah i'm gonna you know then i gotta you know you start going through it in your head and then you just have to stop that yeah because your brain will just manufacture shit for you to freak out about because it's because that's what it's that uh what's that thing that thing that everyone always talks about that uh fight or flight fight or flight sure sure you gotta gotta be ready gotta be ready but what's happening there's no bear in the room there's a bear inside though
Marc:There's a bear right inside my head.
Guest:Are you doing stand-up?
Marc:I think you've made it up.
Marc:Yeah, probably.
Marc:You make up that.
Marc:I'm going to have to go to sit with some Waihaska and kill the bear.
Guest:They say it's a calling, the ayahuasca thing.
Marc:Yeah, I think those days are behind me.
Marc:I'm going to have to do it some other way.
Guest:Oh, because you're an addict.
Marc:Yeah, I don't do it anymore.
Guest:Yeah, it's tricky.
Guest:It's actually got counter-addictive qualities in that it tastes more disgusting the more times you drink it.
Guest:And it heals people of their addiction.
Marc:I heard that.
Guest:I've got a friend who's an addict, and I was talking to him about it, and he said it's just a risk.
Marc:It's just too much of a risk for him.
Marc:Yeah, because it'll just open the door to like, oh, if I can put that in my mouth and have those feelings, why not do what I used to do?
Guest:I think it wouldn't, though.
Guest:I think there's a real difference between that and any other drug that I'm really aware of.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's not like a fun trip.
Guest:It's not like people go and they go, whoa, what a night.
Guest:It's horrific.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you had to take it how many times?
Guest:Four times.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And was the cat on the fourth time?
Guest:Kat was on the fourth time, yeah.
Marc:So that's good.
Marc:So it worked.
Guest:I mean, after the third time, you were like, I'm not quite a... There was a feeling like I was reborn in the second... Nothing happened in the first ceremony because I was so stuck in my head and trying to control it.
Guest:And then as soon as I surrendered to it in the second ceremony, things started happening.
Guest:And then the third ceremony, I can't really remember what happened, but I guess nothing much because I can't remember.
Guest:And then in the fourth ceremony... So it was like I was reborn in the second one, and in the fourth one, I became a man.
Guest:Reborn in the third one.
Guest:sorry reborn the second one and then the fourth one uh became like a man yeah uh became like somebody who was uh able to just sort of be in a room you know yeah like like men own yourself yeah like uh like i was a yeah i mean there's a guy there's a lot of stories in now i think of as stories that are in numb now yeah uh but yeah yeah a man among men
Guest:a man among yeah and looking like take like looking out for other people uh-huh you know like i remember i was like you i mean this is a podcast nobody can see but you'll be able to see so normally i'm sort of like like you just fold it up yeah i'm just hopefully everything's going to be all right yeah and i found myself sat like legs open yes
Guest:And like leaning forward and like looking around, going, okay, you okay?
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Guest:You okay?
Guest:Is everyone all right?
Guest:Okay, come on then.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:You're a leader.
Guest:A leader, right?
Guest:And then sort of, and then pointing to like this attractive guy to the side of me.
Guest:And then sort of like telling him, come to me.
Guest:Come to me.
Guest:Like that madness.
Guest:And I normally in a sort of social setting, I'm like, oh, I can't possibly talk to that person.
Guest:He's such a creep.
Guest:I'm like, come to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How'd that feel?
Guest:It felt amazing, and he did come, and he had a lovely time.
Yeah.
Marc:Did any of that stick with you?
Guest:Yeah, not as much as it should have done.
Guest:But yeah, a little bit.
Guest:I mean, I'm in a relationship now.
Guest:How long?
Guest:Two years.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Sorry to say that after you've just broken up with someone.
Marc:It's okay.
Guest:It's terrible.
Marc:It's terrible.
Marc:You're better off on your own with your guitars.
Marc:No, no, no, I'm not.
Marc:I need to be for a little while.
Marc:You know how that goes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Got to reprocess.
Marc:Two years, that's good.
Marc:That's long.
Marc:yeah it's the longest it's i've just broken my record of of being in a relationship is he in the show business no good the opposite oh good what's the opposite of show business reality economics oh really interesting yeah yeah it's good it's good to be uh with somebody yeah who's not uh caught up in this crap
Guest:i think so yeah i've been with show business people before and it is i think it's a difficult you know it's it's it's enough one person having you know it's just it's just too it's too much it's just too much self-awareness too much self-awareness and also there's you know the undercurrent of of competition and ego sort of like you know how can you got that when did you know when am i going to get this and what difficult what's a good relationship i mean what do you think makes it good
Guest:I think honesty, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think just talking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just talking.
Guest:Just being unafraid to say the thing that you're worried makes you sound like a terrible person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you say it out there.
Guest:It's like with stand-up.
Guest:That's why I love stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's because I can say these things that I think are shameful and embarrassing, and then people laugh.
Guest:and it feels like they're saying not only is that funny but we feel that too and it's and and thank you for saying it because now we don't feel as ashamed yeah you release something yeah and uh it you know it's a it's a and and i think the same in a relationship uh you know to be able to say to be able to say something that you think uh is is is immoral or is is inappropriate and then the other person says
Marc:oh yeah of course of course because we're both human beings right that's why you're feeling that yeah that's why oh phew okay good so you're not good you don't think you're not gonna leave me yeah okay good phew oh that's great so what what are you hoping to uh and the sex sex very important yeah yeah that's got to stay good that has to be nice yeah sorry what are you saying what do you what are you hoping will happen here in the states for you well in the big picture the healthy part of me
Guest:yeah says hey this bit right now is just great yeah what day is it today saturday sunday sunday yeah sunday afternoon with mark maron in his shed what a dream yeah and then the and and oh we're doing some stand-up this week that's good people will come and laugh and oh good yeah great and i'll go home yeah and the unhealthy part of me goes oh
We have to be Tom Hanks.
Guest:Why aren't you Tom Hanks?
Guest:Everyone loves Tom Hanks.
Guest:They don't all love you.
Guest:Why don't they all love you?
Guest:What's wrong with you?
Marc:How can you make them love you?
Marc:How can you be more like Tom Hanks?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Why?
Guest:You'll never be like Tom Hanks.
Marc:So you'd like to do movies?
Guest:Yeah, everything, I think.
Guest:I mean, I'm into... Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I grew up watching television, going to see films.
Marc:Have you done films?
Marc:done one uh very low budget film and i really enjoyed doing it yeah and the series that you have uh in in the uk is is it it's just available on dvd now or yes we did two seasons how many is that 20 oh no 12 12 oh god that's the best way to do it yeah and and now even that felt out too much well explain to me how that works i talked to simon peg about it but um you was it your choice to not do more or how does it
Guest:I felt like I wrote it with somebody, but I suppose it was based on more of my pain than his.
Guest:And I felt like I'd written all the pain out of me and anything anymore would be gratuitous.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We could have done a third season or series, but it would have just been for the sake of entertainment.
Guest:And I felt like it would get too broad and silly.
Marc:And no one tried to muscle you into doing more?
Marc:Was it successful?
Guest:I suppose it was a sort of cult hit, maybe, is probably the right way to say it.
Guest:What was it called?
Guest:Grandma's house.
Guest:And it was probably a bit too depressing to sort of reach an enormous amount of people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the people, when people come up to me and they say they watched it and they like it, it's a very personal response.
Guest:It's like, I had an aunt like that.
Guest:Or it's like, oh my God, you really got that.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It's that sort of thing.
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:It's the best thing.
Marc:That's the best, but you're sort of in a tricky place with the hunger of your ego.
Guest:Yeah, the ego wants... But actually, the truth is, and what I have to remember, is that I've left shows each time when they've got a bit too popular.
Guest:Partly because I think, oh, now it's going to just turn to hate.
Guest:So I better get out of here quick.
Marc:On your part, you're going to hate them.
Guest:Or they're going to hate you?
Guest:The story has been told that this is a good show.
Guest:That's been out there.
Guest:That's what people are saying.
Guest:So if I just stay here, at some point they're going to start saying, it needs to be good.
Guest:So partly I get out of it.
Guest:But partly also, certainly with the panel show, it was a bit too...
Guest:It was a bit too much.
Guest:It was a bit too impersonal.
Guest:People coming up to me and sort of liking it and for things that I felt like weren't the best bits of it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I thought, I've got to, this is not, I don't think I'm expressing the truth of who I am in this format.
Marc:It becomes a job.
Guest:yeah and also like not you know i like being uh i really like being the new boy yeah i like being here because i'm the new boy yeah and i thought okay well i've done that i was i was the new boy for the first season of that i didn't really know what i was doing and it was exciting and fun and now i sort of know what i'm doing now people have expectations and it's for me to carry on being how i've been so far and i thought okay let's be the new boy in sitcoms now yeah
Guest:And then when that was, then I thought we could do a third season of this, no one's going to go, oh, that's surprising.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, it's like the last season.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's a shame, really, that I don't just, because once I learn how to do something, I stop doing it.
Guest:It's a shame I can't just keep going.
Guest:It could be better for the audience.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I feel I can definitely relate to that because then it becomes a different challenge.
Marc:It becomes a challenge of consistency and figuring out what works about that version of you and how many times can you hit that thing.
Guest:yeah and i don't want to i think and with stand-up as well as soon as you uh you know as soon as it's sort of branded like i don't know how you feel about this like i was like i've been promoting this uh the dvd of num in the uk and i think it will be on in i think it will be available in america in some sort of internet form i'm not sure which uh netflix or something one of those kinds of things at some point but i've been promoting it and uh you know they ask what it's about and i've been so i've been keep saying the word depression i keep saying you know these words and i
Guest:There's a concern that... Because I don't feel those things as strongly as I did before.
Guest:I don't want to now that... I don't want to be like, oh, yeah, OC or the sad guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know that... Oh, yeah, it's tricky.
Marc:It's tricky how to... Because people are like, yeah, I think you'd be a little bit more upbeat about how you're presenting it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's about rising above depression and having a rebirth.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nobody wants to hear it when you say that.
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:It's hard when you're a thinky kind of comic because if someone describes you or you describe yourself, a lot of people, if they don't know, you're like, wow, that doesn't sound like a fun time.
Marc:Yeah, but it is a fun time.
Guest:People are laughing at the audience.
Marc:Yeah, we're moving through things.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we're helping the world.
Guest:We're trying, aren't we?
Guest:We're trying.
Guest:I think, what was my point?
Guest:I had some sort of point about once you brand something, once you name something, it sort of disappears a bit.
Guest:It doesn't really exist anymore.
Marc:I think that's true.
Marc:Yeah, I think it's because it's no longer about you.
Marc:It's about that thing.
Guest:Because we're constantly changing and evolving and all those things.
Guest:And you can't really, you know, once you name something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, oh, so you're that.
Guest:That's what you are.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is why God, you know, doesn't get, you're not supposed to name God.
Guest:Because then it's not the thing.
Marc:He knew.
Marc:He knew.
Marc:It's become a hell of a brain.
Marc:Brain marketing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So good.
Marc:Amazing brain.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No matter what, no matter how you slice it, God seems to be a very powerful brand in the world.
Marc:It's good talking to you, man.
Guest:Is that all right?
Guest:Would you edit that into something that sounds like a real human being?
Marc:You're definitely a real human being.
Marc:You know, you helped me out.
Marc:I mean, I thought that was a good conversation.
Guest:You know, I'm just asking these things now because I don't want it to end.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Well, we can hang out for a little while.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:I like that guy.
Marc:I don't want to say I like that kid because he feels younger than me.
Marc:He was younger than me.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, go to WTF Pod for all you WTF Pod needs.
Marc:Oh, don't forget, my special Thinkie Pain is available on Amazon and many other outlets.
Marc:Yeah, go get Thinkie Pain if you didn't get it on Netflix.
Marc:You can get it now.
Marc:You can own it.
Marc:You can own it.
Marc:Where you buy DVDs, it is available.
Marc:How's that?
Marc:I think I'm manic.
Marc:I freaked out today.
Marc:Panic, manic, panic.
Marc:The two things that will guarantee send a fear to the very core of your being in the moment that you feel them are, what's that lump?
Marc:I better Google it.
Marc:And holy shit, what's going on with my bank statement?
Marc:Am I a victim of identity theft?
Marc:Those two things are the scariest things your brain can do to you.
Marc:Cancer and identity theft.
Marc:Panic City.
Marc:Of course, I can get my panic up for just about anything if I can't decide on a pair of pants.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Going without today.
Marc:Keep hitting that.
Marc:Freaked out.
Marc:Thought I was in an identity theft situation.
Marc:Turns out, I don't really understand how online banking works.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:I didn't understand what that thing was on my statement.
Marc:And boy, did I go someplace.
Marc:I went first to like, someone's ripping me off.
Marc:Who?
Marc:Made a list of names.
Marc:You know, judged them thoroughly.
Marc:Thought I knew people that I didn't.
Marc:And not only that, they were criminals.
Marc:It's going to take legal action.
Marc:Then I went to like the faceless person who was
Marc:taking money from my account and you know what else are they doing what else am i going to find out how is this going to go it was a bad rabbit hole then i called the bank up and the guy explained to me no no that's a check you wrote and i was like oh okay that's a good thing
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, I'm glad I didn't email people and tell them that legal action was underway.
Marc:And I guess I just lost probably two weeks off my life because of that stress.
Marc:But I appreciate your help, and I'm an idiot.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:All right, that's all.
Marc:Boomer lives!