Episode 455 - Jason Woliner
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Marc:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuckstables?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fucktonians?
Marc:It's what the fucking Christmas.
Marc:Merry Christmas.
Marc:Happy New Year.
Marc:I don't have to say that because I'm going to talk to you again on Thursday, but I don't know how many of you are checking in with the episodes as they drop over this holiday season.
Marc:Sometimes they just get backed up.
Marc:If you are doing that, I highly recommend listening to...
Marc:To the Phil Stutz interview from last Friday and also Alan Havy, if you missed that, there were tremendous conversations.
Marc:Today I'm going to be talking to Jason Wollner.
Marc:He was one of the creators of Human Giant, directed some of John Benjamin as a band.
Marc:He was involved with putting together the original Delocated with John Glazer.
Marc:He directed some Parks and Rec.
Marc:He directed and wrote some of the Eagle Hearts, directed Patton's Finest Hours special, was a child actor.
Marc:Started in show business.
Marc:It's an interesting story.
Marc:He was also the kid who was burying Bernie's corpse in the sand in Weekend at Bernie's.
Marc:So this kid goes back.
Marc:He's also a regular.
Marc:He was a regular on Tom Sharpling's Best Show, which is over now.
Marc:Love Tom Sharpling.
Marc:Hope you guys, if you miss that boat, you go out in there and pick up those podcasts.
Marc:The best show.
Marc:Be sad if you miss the boat, but it's all out there.
Marc:Sharpling's a genius.
Marc:So it's Christmas.
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:I'm wearing a hat.
Marc:You wearing a hat?
Marc:I'm wearing a hat.
Marc:I'm out in the garage.
Marc:I got a toque on.
Marc:Is that what they are?
Marc:Is it a toque?
Marc:Is it a toque?
Marc:I don't fucking know, man.
Marc:What are my Christmas plans?
Marc:Mark asked himself as if someone in his audience asked him with delight and concern.
Marc:Hey, Mark, what are your Christmas plans?
Marc:Well...
Marc:Quite honestly, the original plan was, and this really goes to the core of what's really wrong with me.
Marc:I've been busting my fucking ass on my television show.
Marc:I'm working 12 to 14 hours a day shooting.
Marc:I got sick last week, which was a nightmare, but I powered through it.
Marc:Not toot my own horn, but I think we're doing okay.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, man.
Marc:It's going pretty good, but I'm exhausted.
Marc:I'm exhausted.
Marc:Last week, I worked with Sally Kellerman and Judd Hirsch as my parents.
Marc:It was a riot.
Marc:I've watched four of the cuts out of the seven we've got in the can, and they looked great.
Marc:I'm much more relaxed.
Marc:I have less on my mind.
Marc:I'm not panicked.
Marc:I think I'm doing a better job as an actor, and I think the scripts are funnier.
Marc:And, you know, dare I say...
Marc:I'm happy with what's going on creatively and every other way.
Marc:Everything's moving smooth.
Marc:Knock on.
Marc:Is that wood?
Marc:Is it?
Marc:It's wood.
Marc:So what am I doing for Christmas?
Marc:Well, here's my big idea.
Marc:Fuck, I need to relax.
Marc:I'm just going to drive my car.
Marc:Today, this was the plan.
Marc:Obviously, I'm not doing that because I'm not in my car.
Marc:I was going to drive my car to Albuquerque, New Mexico, stay over there at Los Poblanos and just sit there.
Marc:And then I maybe spend a couple hours with my father.
Marc:So that was my big idea.
Marc:I was going to sit there the 23rd, 24th and 25th in Albuquerque in my hometown, literally three or four blocks from where I grew up, where the house that I grew up in no longer exists, but the plot of land exists.
Marc:and just wander around the neighborhood, drive around my hometown.
Marc:I mean, what part of my brain thought that was fucking relaxing?
Marc:I guess I just wanted to go through a, just dive into some dark nostalgia hole for my Christmas.
Marc:Sans family, I'd spent a couple hours with my dad, but that wasn't the reason I was going.
Marc:Sans family, I'm just going to go back to where I grew up, where most of my past is buried and still in the ether.
Marc:Floating about every version of me floating around fragments of my past that I could just reactivate with the air with the winter air of New Mexico.
Marc:I could reactivate every part of my past.
Marc:Not a lot of it.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Wasn't that it was bad, but it was the standard struggle, you know, from ages.
Marc:10 to 18, all of it just there in the ether waiting to be reactivated with a Proustian inhalation of the smell of cottonwood trees and pine.
Marc:Just take a big whiff and just cry out your adolescence.
Marc:Merry Christmas.
Marc:What the fuck was I thinking?
Marc:How is that relaxing?
Marc:You can get a massage?
Marc:No.
Marc:You can eat some good food?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So what's your plan?
Marc:I'm just going to sit in a room down the street from where I grew up, drive a rental car around places where I used to go when I was in high school, if they still exist, and just sort of look for the me that was so I could try to maybe...
Marc:Hook up with that dude and say, hey, man, you want to do it like old times?
Marc:You want to just cruise?
Marc:I got some fucking, I got some rock, man.
Marc:I got some Van Halen on my iPod.
Marc:You want to just cruise around?
Marc:You can drink a beer because you're still doing that then.
Marc:Maybe I just talk you through what's going to happen to you.
Marc:It ain't good.
Marc:It's going to be a struggle, but you're going to be all right, so I would fucking relax.
Marc:How about you do that, teenage Mark?
Marc:Stop trying too hard.
Marc:Stop trying so fucking hard, man.
Marc:People will eventually like you.
Marc:Not everybody, but people will eventually like you.
Marc:You don't have to fucking bend over backwards to be friends with people.
Marc:You don't have to take everything so heavy.
Marc:You'll work it out.
Marc:You'll figure out how to have sex.
Marc:You'll figure out all that shit, man.
Marc:Just fucking kick back.
Marc:Listen to eruption, man.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Dude, you're 15.
Marc:See, I didn't even need to go.
Marc:I just fixed that.
Marc:I just fixed 15-year-old Mark.
Marc:Let's move on.
Marc:I just can't believe that was my idea.
Marc:So...
Marc:In lieu of that, I've decided to not go there.
Marc:And on Wednesday, I'm going to fly out to Phoenix.
Marc:I'm going to see my brother.
Marc:I'm going to reintroduce myself to my nieces and nephews, perhaps give them some gifts.
Marc:I did give my brother some money to get them some Xbox, some equipment to distract themselves from their feelings and from reality.
Marc:So I'm part of that.
Marc:I'm going to go, and I think I'm going to buy my niece a guitar.
Marc:She's getting into guitar.
Marc:Nothing makes me happier than seeing one of my...
Marc:My brother's kids going the wayward way of the artist.
Marc:I'm going to buy her an electric guitar.
Marc:I'm going to buy that girl an electric guitar.
Marc:That's my big plan.
Marc:That's my big Christmas purchase.
Marc:Here's the beautiful thing.
Marc:Again, a celebration of what could be misconstrued as loneliness.
Marc:A twice divorced 50 year old man with some heart scars and some heaviness in his in his mind and spirit.
Marc:childless 50 years old at home alone on christmas you know what fucking tremendous how many gifts did you have to buy people zero bought the kids something could have bought more how many christmas cards did you send out none you feel bad about that i don't know it's not my really thing what am i gonna do take a picture of myself in a sweater
Marc:What, you know, sitting in my garage?
Marc:Greetings from the cat ranch.
Marc:That actually would have been a pretty cute idea.
Marc:I didn't do that.
Marc:Merry Xmas from Mark and his felines.
Marc:Try getting Monkier LaFonda to fucking set in a picture.
Marc:Not gonna happen.
Marc:All right?
Guest:I'm all alone, but I am singing.
Guest:Jingle bells, jingle bells.
Guest:Oh, what fun it is to ride on a one-horse open sleigh.
Guest:Hey, everybody.
Guest:Jingle bells, jingle bells.
Guest:Is it Santa's Got a Sleigh?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Look, be nice to yourself over Christmas.
Marc:Don't kill your family.
Marc:You know, the standard stuff.
Marc:Hope you got some good presents.
Marc:Jason Woliner, let's talk.
Marc:I was frustrated that I didn't have a full grasp.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:You know, what's the point of it all?
Guest:Oh, of everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's frustrating.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I just, like, I'll drive down the street and I'll look at people and you make assumptions.
Marc:Like, how's that person getting by?
Marc:What does that person do?
Marc:They just go home and they're okay?
Marc:That guy?
Marc:You know, I do it all the time.
Guest:Yeah, I think about that with everyone.
Guest:You do?
Guest:I was walking, we were passing, I was in the car with my friend Andrew yesterday, and we passed some lady who was walking down the street funny and said something about her, and I was just wondering how many people have, like, made a funny voice for me as I've been walking down the street.
Guest:Or imagine, like, the extent of my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You made a funny voice for her?
Guest:Just like... I don't know.
Guest:It's just some stupid moment.
Guest:But don't you think... Every time you go to a show or see all these people have completely full lives and... Well, they have lives.
Guest:They have lives, but they care about things and they... You think so?
Yeah.
Marc:No, I do.
Marc:I think about that all the time, that because you get so self-involved, you get so kind of into your own trip, that sometimes you forget that, like, everyone, that publicist who just left, she's got a car, she's got music she's chosen.
Guest:I think she disappeared.
Guest:She's done.
Guest:As soon as she's out of our field of vision, she evaporates, right?
Guest:That's what happens with people.
Marc:Well, I think there is some philosophical, you know, writing about that, about, you know, does she really exist right now?
Marc:I don't, it's not a, this is sort of deep for the morning.
Guest:Isn't it?
Guest:I started listening, I don't know why, I found on my iPhone, there's like iTunes, has like a university thing, you can get lectures and classes.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And at some point, I guess I had downloaded like a 27-hour course on death, and I just started listening to it on like planes and
Guest:what are you learning it's this guy from yale which i was like oh this is gonna be way above my head but he's actually like he just speaks very normally and and so he's like i'm going to spend the next 27 uh hours uh proving that there's no soul and that uh there's nothing else and and why that's not a bad thing but uh yes that's what i've been listening to on my way to work i don't know i'd rather stay a romantic
Marc:yeah I mean yeah that's why it seems to me yeah okay everything's a chemical process and there's probably no soul and when we die we just kind of you know rot and melt into garbage yeah and then that's that but then what's you know then again we're back to what's the point then
Guest:But yeah, I don't know.
Marc:But not that the soul is a big point or anything, but you want to... I don't fucking know, Jason.
Guest:It's heavy.
Guest:It's heavy.
Marc:No, I mean, I don't think about it.
Marc:I don't really think about what's that going to happen after I die.
Marc:I do sometimes think I'm dying, and I find that paralyzing.
Guest:I'm much more worried about getting old than dying.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not afraid of dying, I don't think.
Marc:But just the idea of waking up and feeling like shit every day and more and more, that just seems like a... I have a problem with that in that same process of looking at people and projecting lives when I see really old people.
Marc:Not in a bad way, but I'm like, oh my god.
Marc:that's you know that and they're probably fine they're probably like i feel great but to me it's like that's that's the big payoff i mean what i don't i don't you know it doesn't it seems after a certain point it's just uh it's not necessarily that it's downhill but you just have to be comfortable with the you know you did what you did that was it yeah i feel like i don't know i feel like we're there
Guest:we've arrived yeah i think so yeah but you did a lot of things you've done a lot of yeah no i feel like i'm fine i'm having you're ready to die i had a good time i'm ready no i don't i yeah yeah it's fine i don't know i used to i used to when i was younger i used to kind of live in that anticipatory way of just like okay once i get to this point then things will get going or uh then i'll get happier if i lose you know weight or whatever and then uh
Guest:I think I was able to shake that.
Guest:I feel like I've been better the last couple years.
Marc:You're not obsessing?
Marc:You're allowing yourself to experience some peace of mind and gratitude for your achievements?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Not my achievements, but just my day-to-day.
Marc:Oh, like you're okay?
Guest:Yeah, I'm fine.
Marc:Not freaking out right now?
Guest:Yeah, not right now.
Guest:I used to be freaking out all the time.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:I'm 33.
Guest:You're a young man.
Guest:See, I felt like, at 20, I felt like I was done.
Guest:I was, like, old.
Guest:I was washed up.
Marc:What was the indicator of that?
Marc:What was the moment when you looked at your wife and said, this is over?
Guest:I dropped out of college to try to, like, make a movie, like an indie movie.
Guest:And I convinced a bunch of my friends to drop out.
Marc:You convinced him to drop out of college.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know why that necessarily was going to be part of it.
Guest:But I was like, college is stupid.
Guest:We don't need to go to college.
Guest:It was when people started to make movies on video.
Guest:It was just after the 90s, indie, whatever.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:We'll make a movie and we'll go drive across the country and we'll show to people.
Guest:We made it over summer and I dropped out and it was terrible.
Guest:I knew while I was making it, I was like, oh, this isn't that good.
Marc:How many people did you destroy, you know, talk out of college?
Marc:I think four.
Marc:You were able to talk four people to drop out of college?
Marc:How'd they frame it to their parents?
Marc:Like, we're taking a semester off?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That wasn't my responsibility.
Guest:They had to handle this conversation.
Marc:You just wanted to mislead them, and then it was on them.
Guest:I think I talked a really big game, and then they all went back, except I think one of them.
Guest:But I think everyone pretty much wound up being like, yeah, no, this isn't.
Guest:Did you go back?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, but I almost did.
Guest:This movie was a disaster and it was stupid.
Guest:We were like, yeah, let's drive around the country and show it at colleges.
Guest:And we did this road trip in January where all the schools were off.
Guest:And we didn't basically wind up showing it anywhere.
Guest:I went back home and I was really depressed.
Guest:And I was like, I guess I'll just go back to school then and try to finish.
Guest:And then I wound up getting a job from a guy I met in a coffee shop as a video editor and
Guest:And I was like, I'll try this out for the summer and then probably go back to school.
Guest:And then I wound up staying there for like four or five years.
Marc:At the video editing place?
Guest:Yeah, editing.
Marc:That's good training, though.
Guest:It was good because I taught myself how to edit and direct and all this stuff.
Guest:And at the same time, I was going to... That was up in Rockland County, New York.
Marc:But that's like, for what you do, I mean, that was sort of one of those weird, coincidental, pivotal things.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:It was good.
Guest:They had equipment.
Guest:They allowed me to use it, and I would go see shows at Rafifi or whatever, or UCB.
Marc:Where's Rockland?
Guest:It's above Westchester.
Marc:You're a full-on New York guy.
Guest:I grew up in the Bronx and then my family moved to a town called Pelham when I was like 13 or 14.
Marc:But Woliner?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's Jewish, right?
Guest:It's Jewish, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, Jewish Bronx.
Guest:Jewish Bronx, yeah.
Marc:When you were a kid, I know that you have a past in show business.
Guest:Yeah, I was a kid actor from when I was like four years old to about 12.
Marc:How does that happen?
Marc:Who makes that decision?
Marc:Who was pushing you?
Guest:My parents weren't, actually.
Guest:I had really good parents.
Marc:So at four years old, you had chosen your career path.
Guest:No, basically.
Guest:At four years old, I knew I really wanted to be a director.
Guest:Both my parents were teachers.
Guest:My dad on weekends was like a kid's birthday party magician, and I would go.
Guest:Was he any good?
Guest:You know, I think so.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, kids were happy.
Guest:Yeah, he's great.
Guest:He's a great performer.
Guest:I think he's still like the cool teacher.
Guest:I see kids tweeting about him when I search my own name on Twitter.
Guest:And Mr. Walleter is the best.
Guest:Because I think he kind of doesn't...
Guest:give a shit in a lot of ways.
Guest:He's just kind of like, he doesn't treat kids like idiots.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or if he does, it's funny.
Guest:What does he teach?
Guest:He used to teach wood shop and then it became like technology and... Wood shop?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:For a Jew, yeah.
Marc:That doesn't happen too often.
Marc:No.
Marc:Well, you know, what do I know?
Marc:I get accused of being sort of like, enough with the Jew stuff, you know, don't be a Jewish elitist, whatever.
Marc:We all have our conceptions of what a Jew does and doesn't do.
Marc:Of course there are Jewish shop teachers.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:You know, it seemed normal growing up.
Marc:Okay, so you worked with your dad.
Marc:Did that happen?
Marc:Is that a real thing?
Guest:That is real.
Guest:I just remember I was like three or four years old, and it's a story I told so much that I don't think it's really evolved, but I think it's verified.
Guest:I asked my parents again recently.
Guest:You'll have to tell it if you want.
Guest:Is this true?
Guest:But we got robbed, and to make extra money, my dad started doing these.
Guest:He was into magic as a kid, and he started doing these shows.
Guest:What do you mean he got robbed?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were on a road trip to Boston, like a camping trip.
Marc:You were going to camp in Boston?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:Outside of Boston?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is there a forest in Boston?
Marc:Is there a part of town?
Marc:Most of the town is forest.
Marc:It's a small settlement of people downtown by the state house, but the rest is forest.
Marc:No, you don't have to travel very far outside of Boston to find some woods.
Guest:I guess that's what we were doing.
Guest:We were parked by the children's museum.
Guest:Our car was stolen.
Guest:And I guess we had a lot of stuff in there.
Guest:And the way my parents told me the story is that, yeah, my dad just started doing magic shows for kids, which was like a hobby of his growing up.
Marc:Did your dad bring everything your parents owned on vacation?
Guest:I suppose so, but what would that be?
Guest:Like a box of jewelry and the cash from the bank.
Marc:We're going camping, better empty the bank account.
Guest:We had one giant diamond that we left in the backseat that was all by parents.
Guest:It was past that.
Marc:Well, I mean, if you're on a teacher's salary and a car and some shit, that's a big deal.
Marc:It's a big hit.
Guest:And we were living, I mean, it wasn't like Riverdale or anything.
Guest:It was like the Bronx, the Bronx.
Guest:It wasn't dangerous, but we didn't, I mean, we weren't, we didn't have money or anything growing up.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, so it's a big hit.
Marc:And cars get stolen in Boston.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My car got, well, actually, my car was stolen in Rhode Island.
Marc:And that's why I have a personal problem with Rhode Island.
Guest:Really?
Marc:All right, so he goes into magic at it because you were robbed in Boston.
Guest:We were robbed.
Guest:He goes into magic.
Marc:So no camping, I'm taking it.
Guest:I don't remember camping.
Guest:I remember taking the train home.
Guest:I was three or four.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a disappointment.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And then he started doing these kid shows, and then I became like the plant in the audience where I would go to these kids' birthday parties.
Guest:You were a shill?
Guest:Basically, yeah.
Marc:Your dad took you, so look, just pretend like you're not mine, and at the right time, do this.
Guest:And I did, it really did take me, like years and years later, I was in my 20s when someone asked me, I was like, well, so the kid whose birthday it was didn't, like there's a kid there they didn't know, and who also, who went home with a magician afterwards.
Marc:Who asked you that, Sharpling?
Guest:I think it might have been.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it really was something that years later, it didn't quite add up.
Guest:No, it seemed normal forever.
Guest:I was like, oh, yeah, that is strange.
Guest:I also think you're at an age when you're four where you're just kind of given friends.
Guest:Like, oh, here is your friend.
Marc:Yeah, these are the guys you'll be spending time with.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:See if you can work it out.
Guest:But I would come and do his tricks, and then... Like, what was your... You have no recollection of... I only know one other guy whose dad's a magician.
Marc:Who's that?
Marc:Nate Bargetsy.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He's a very funny guy.
Marc:His dad's, like, you know, not a... He does bigger magic.
Marc:He's, like, a known guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, this was, like...
Guest:Most white hand.
Guest:Spot remover.
Guest:There was something with white dots, black dots that appear.
Guest:There was a guy whose head cut off.
Guest:He put a balloon where his head was.
Guest:And my dad would wear like a big bunny suit.
Marc:Really?
Guest:And then later like a jester costume.
Marc:A jester costume.
Guest:And he was billed as Amazing Alan the Magical Rabbit.
Guest:And it was all through like Tristair.
Guest:He knew, you remember Capturing the Freedmans?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He knew that guy, Silly Billy.
Marc:Yeah, the kid.
Guest:I think they, not the brother, the one who the documentary was supposed to be about, who was like the clown.
Marc:Right, the one who became a comic, the aggravated one.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I think they were just part of the circle.
Guest:They would throw gigs to each other.
Marc:The Bronx, Long Island circuit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We do this kid gig I have.
Marc:Do I have to wear the rabbit suit?
Marc:Yeah, they wanted a clown, but I told them I'd give them a rabbit suit.
Guest:Will you wash it?
Guest:Can you get it dry cleaned?
Guest:Ew, God.
Guest:So we were at one show, and I think a woman came up to my dad and was like, your kid's got talent, and gave him a card of a child actor manager.
Marc:That was your big break as a shill.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She saw it right in your eyes.
Guest:That kid's a star.
Guest:Kid's a born liar.
Guest:He's a sociopath.
Guest:He could probably be an actor.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so... It was an agent?
Guest:It was a manager.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It was like a kid's manager.
Guest:And then I started...
Guest:Yeah, and I think I got like the first audition I went on.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is easy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then it began like 10 years of just, you know, rejection and constant.
Marc:But what'd you do?
Marc:What were the first roles?
Guest:It was like a Kix cereal commercial.
Guest:Kix.
Marc:I don't remember what Kix.
Marc:Which one's Kix?
Marc:Trix is the rabbit.
Guest:Kix is like the disgusting, healthy one.
Guest:Oh, it is?
Marc:Is it even around anymore?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, maybe it isn't.
Guest:It's just like a flavorless balls of dough.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:So you did commercials.
Marc:You were the cute kid on the commercials with the spoon.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:yeah i did i think i did like 30 or 40 commercials oh my god and then and i i got to do like i came close on things i did like like uh this movie weekend at bernie's it's like no i remember that movie the dead guy right yeah and you were you played a kid i guess i was a kid we thought the corpse of uh bernie was like it was still alive and i was on the beach and i like buried him in the sand and fired a gun and
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:It was good.
Guest:My parents knew like they were really young.
Guest:My parents were 20.
Guest:My mom was 23 when she had me and my dad was 25.
Guest:Mine too.
Guest:That's weird.
Guest:My parents were, they got together when they were like 13 and 15.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Well, I'm glad they waited.
Guest:And they're still married.
Guest:And so, yeah, no, just TV shows.
Marc:But the movie, that must have been it.
Marc:So were you taken with show business?
Marc:I mean, was there some point where you knew that this was going to be your life?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think it happened so young that I was still forming ideas of what the normal is.
Marc:You did a lot of work.
Marc:Well, there's no normal if you're doing commercials.
Marc:If you do like 30 or 40 commercials, I mean, how do you still... And you're on TV.
Marc:You got to have kids going like, oh, we saw you on the thing.
Guest:Yeah, I don't remember any of that or feeling special or different or anything.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But I also don't remember...
Guest:A lot of that.
Guest:Do you remember like a lot of being really young like that?
Marc:No, you just get bits and pieces.
Marc:And like, I barely remember a few years ago.
Guest:Yeah, I don't.
Marc:I mean, I've lived in like four or five cities and it becomes really challenging.
Marc:That's the one thing I noticed about getting older is that like someone comes up to me and goes, Mark.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to need a city.
Marc:I'm going to need a context.
Marc:Can you help me out here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Didn't we or didn't we sleep together?
Marc:Where do you fit in?
Guest:I can't recognize anyone who's wearing sunglasses, like, at all.
Guest:I can't, like, at a coffee shop or whatever.
Marc:I used to be really good with recognizing people, but never that great with names.
Marc:But now the sort of, so many people have come and gone, and people change when you're, like, I'm 50.
Marc:So if I haven't seen somebody in 20 years, they don't look like who.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's jarring.
Marc:You're like, oh, my God, what happened?
Marc:I mean, good to see you.
Yeah.
Marc:Time has really taken its toll.
Guest:That's a good opener.
Guest:Good icebreaker.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So, time.
Marc:What the hell did life do to you?
Marc:So, all right, so you go through high school, you're still acting, and you're still in the Bronx?
Guest:I was still, by the time of high school, we'd moved to the town of Pelham.
Marc:That's a little north of New York.
Guest:it's just north it's like 20 minutes north of the city and then uh and i stopped acting when i was about 12 and i just i that that i do remember very vividly i was going uh to an audition for some some commercial or whatever and uh and i can't i just gotten glasses i just uh realized my eyes weren't good and i went in and like this table full of like ad guys just started uh like laughing at me like oh a little woody allen here and i just remember thinking like
Guest:I don't need this shit, I'm a kid, what am I doing here?
Guest:And so I was just like, I don't really wanna do this anymore.
Marc:That was pretty grounded and good for you, standing up for yourself.
Guest:I remember everyone who I met and told that I was a child actor, they're like, watch out, you're gonna die probably.
Guest:So all through that I do remember
Guest:not wanting to become famous or do too well because everyone... It's such a cautionary tale.
Guest:That child actor.
Guest:It doesn't work out.
Marc:It usually doesn't end well.
Guest:If you do really well as a child actor, it almost never works out.
Guest:It's hard, man.
Marc:I mean, who is there that have really... I mean, Seth Green does okay.
Guest:Yeah, Ron Howard, I suppose.
Marc:Well, yeah, that feels like a different timing for some reason.
Guest:No, Seth Green, yeah, he does really well.
Marc:You know, he's finding, he does things, keeps busy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, he's not dead.
Marc:Right, but I think once you rely on the industry to take care of you, it can get a little troublesome.
Marc:I think it's hard to grow up and be a functioning adult when you've been through that.
Guest:It's also really weird for a kid that age to grow up just being the center of attention and with all these expectations on you.
Guest:I mean, I never felt like I was the breadwinner of my family or anything.
Guest:What's good is my parents were really, really laid back about the whole thing and were always just like, if you don't want to do this, we should only do this.
Guest:But it must have helped out.
Marc:I mean, you got your car stolen in Boston.
Marc:It must have been somewhat of a windfall when the Kix money came in.
Guest:It must have.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Have you seen any of that money, Jason?
Guest:No, I saw it.
Guest:One of the reasons why I decided to drop out of college was I did a pilot.
Guest:I did a couple episodes of a show when I was 12 out here that was going to be a mid-season show for ABC, and then we just shot two episodes, and they tested it, and test audiences did not respond to me.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:And they shut it down.
Marc:And they told you that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they, and so I remember, so I came back and, and that money that you make is locked, like a certain amount is locked up.
Guest:Uh, and, uh, and I got it when I was 18.
Guest:So I had, I think like 30 or $40,000 in cash when I was 18.
Guest:That was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Something like, or maybe career in commercials.
Guest:I know I had that much.
Guest:Maybe there was more.
Marc:I think you ought to talk to your parents.
Guest:I should probably talk to my parents.
Guest:They're holding out on you.
Marc:Are they still together?
Guest:They are still together, yeah.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They're actually living back in the Bronx now because they bought this house in Westchester and then everyone kind of moved out.
Guest:I had two younger brothers and so then they moved back to this house in the Bronx.
Marc:Do you remember the commercials you did?
Guest:I just, yeah, I mean, I remember them, but only because we had, like, a beta tape in the house that, you know, we would record them when they came on.
Marc:Oh, so, like, years later, you don't really have a physical recollection of what you were... Just bits and pieces.
Guest:The only thing I really remember is there was one for Pop Rocks where it was, like, a bunch of kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they were like, we need a volunteer.
Guest:And I raised my hand first.
Guest:And they're like, okay, you can go home.
Guest:And then I remember driving home with, I think my dad was like, why'd you raise your hand?
Guest:You wanted to be first.
Guest:Yeah, I thought it was a good thing.
Marc:That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.
Marc:We need a volunteer.
Marc:All right, you, out.
Guest:You're done.
Marc:Oh, that's how life works.
Marc:That's the best metaphor for life I've ever heard.
Guest:I need a volunteer.
Marc:Me!
Guest:All right, you're finished.
Guest:All right, that should teach the rest of you kids a lesson.
Guest:Don't trust anyone.
Guest:Don't stick your nose out.
Marc:All right, so when you turned your back on the career of a child star, I mean, what was, what, you were in your early teens?
Guest:Yeah, I was 13, I think.
Guest:Or I did, the last thing I did, I... Did you bar mitzvah?
Guest:Yeah, that was in the Bronx, though.
Guest:So I think I started going, my dad, so my dad got a job teaching in this school in this nicer neighborhood, and then we started going to school there, and then a couple years later, we moved from the Bronx there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I got bar mitzvahed in the Bronx.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, old-timey, like full-on Jew.
Guest:We were old-timey, yeah.
Guest:We weren't super religious or anything, but it was a legit bar mitzvah.
Guest:It was a big production, yeah.
Marc:Sure, big production.
Marc:You had to study, learn it.
Marc:Did you do Friday and Saturday?
Guest:Oh, God, I don't know.
Guest:I don't think so.
Marc:Yeah, because we did Friday and Saturday where I lived.
Marc:I don't know why that is.
Marc:It was a two-day event?
Marc:You did the service on Friday night, which was the sort of easier one.
Marc:That was sort of like the setup.
Marc:And then on Saturday, the old men came up and unrolled the thing.
Marc:All right, here's the thing.
Marc:Point to where you're going to pretend like you're reading from what you memorized.
Guest:Was it the thing with the little hand on it with the pointer?
Marc:I think it's called the... The yid?
Guest:That's the person.
Marc:I'm a yid.
Marc:I forget what it's called.
Marc:Yeah, the thing with the little finger on it.
Guest:Yeah, I remember liking that.
Guest:And also they had these twisty candles that looked really weird.
Marc:Yeah, the braided candles.
Guest:There's some cool stuff about being Jewish.
Marc:Yeah, those two things.
Guest:That's about it.
Marc:The pointer with the hand on it that you read the Torah with.
Marc:Maybe if you're lucky, you have a twisty candle at some point during your thing.
Guest:And the rest of it's really a hassle.
Guest:Yeah, it's just hazy.
Guest:Inconvenience.
Marc:It feels like a lot of pressure from a lot of old men that are staying.
Marc:I just remember that they're the elders of the synagogue.
Marc:You're just surrounded by men as you read that thing, and you're like, I'm doing it.
Marc:What do you want from me?
Guest:I remember, yeah, they would call.
Guest:I mean, we lived really close to our synagogue, and they would call and be like, oh, we need a minion.
Guest:We were missing two guys, and I would go with my dad sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:God, you were a shill at a minion, too.
Yeah.
Guest:Dennis dragged you along forever.
Guest:I was for higher shill.
Guest:I would just show up.
Guest:Do minions.
Marc:Magic shows.
Marc:So what was the plan then?
Marc:When did you start actually making films and doing that kind of thing?
Guest:Actually, around that age, I knew I wanted to just kind of go to high school and not really be an actor anymore.
Guest:But then when I was 12, this pilot I did, weirdly, was about a kid who made movies with his friends.
Guest:And then I just started doing that when I came back, which I never thought that I kind of modeled what I wanted to do based on that, but it was pretty similar.
Guest:And so I just started making videos with my cousins.
Marc:Like on beta?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just on... Or VHS?
Guest:What was the format?
Guest:It was High 8.
Guest:It was these little tapes.
Marc:Oh, so you had the little ones.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was already... Yeah, because you're 33.
Marc:That was already available.
Marc:When I was younger, you had to have a pretty clunky VHS recorder.
Marc:Like you had the machines that you fit the whole VHS tape into.
Guest:Yeah, with that big thing that goes down.
Marc:With the thing that clicks in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This was one step after that.
Guest:They were making these little tapes, and then we just edit them in camera.
Guest:I remember...
Guest:doing like really elaborate stuff with trying to sync music up to it by holding like a headphone right to the mic of the camera and pausing the music when I would press record and all this stuff.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:Because you know, like when you're younger, I mean, if you have the brain for it, you know the effect you want, but you don't know how it's done.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're going to figure out a way to make a facsimile of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think that's good training.
Marc:And it must be hilarious to watch that kind of stuff.
Guest:I haven't seen it in a while.
Guest:Me and my cousins would make movies just constantly.
Guest:I remember thinking like, okay, why doesn't this look like a movie?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What about this?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And just trying to figure out certain things.
Guest:And just, you know, we made tons and tons of them.
Marc:And when you, so in high school, you were making some movies, and you didn't do any acting, you didn't do any theater, you didn't do anything.
Guest:I did high school theater, yeah, I would still do that, I guess, which is weird, because I wasn't, I could never sing or anything, but.
Guest:Oh, right, musicals and.
Guest:I never, I think I did, I did like, my favorite year, Guys and Dolls, those.
Guest:Sure, those are great high school musicals.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, where you understand everything that's being talked about in the musical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't do any of that, but there's a certain type of person that does that.
Marc:You danced a little?
Marc:No, never.
Guest:I can hardly move.
Guest:I'm not graceful.
Guest:It seems very weird to me now doing not only high school theater, but any kind of theater.
Guest:Even any kind of acting now, I can't imagine doing it.
Guest:I feel so uncomfortable on camera.
Guest:You couldn't do it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just something changed where I was like, I'm too self-conscious for this anymore.
Guest:I can't.
Marc:It's weird that you have, like, as a kid, you have this kind of blind confidence.
Marc:And then as life chips away at you, you realize, like, maybe I don't fit in.
Marc:Maybe I'm not good.
Guest:Maybe I'm not.
Guest:I guess, yeah, that coincided with high school.
Guest:It killed you.
Marc:It killed your spirit.
Marc:That's what happened.
Marc:That's what happened, Jason.
Marc:High school killed your spirit and pushed you behind the camera.
Marc:I mean, it was a gift on one level.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm much, I also feel like, I just, I remember that feeling in that audition of people, like, because also knowing that, you know, kind of no matter how good you are or whatever, the decision is almost always made as soon as you walk in if you're the right type or who you are or whatever.
Marc:It's got nothing to do with what you're bringing to it other than the luck of genetics or whether your serendipity has delivered you a part in that.
Guest:Yeah, and the audition process is so humiliating on both sides and uncomfortable.
Guest:It's just like a person standing there.
Guest:And I definitely remember feeling like I didn't like that powerlessness.
Guest:And I was like, oh, if I make stuff, that's the only kind of control you have.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:I was talking to somebody last night that now because you direct, you've actually been on both sides of that.
Marc:And I have, too.
Marc:And as I because I'm producing on the show that I'm in, I have to be at auditions.
Marc:And having been in an audition, you just see these people.
Marc:There's such a it's so heart wrenching.
Guest:Yeah, it's awful.
Guest:It's like the worst.
Marc:And then you kind of think like, you know, this is they want these two lines.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know if they've you know, they looks like they've done a couple of things.
Marc:But there's that that moment where you realize, like, what are
Marc:what are people what are we holding on to what you know what show business is like how does their life look what are we doing yeah and i'm not i'm not condescending actors everybody's gonna have their own process and and and fight for what they want to fight for but they're auditioning in the building i'm working and you just see these people just waiting for this opportunity to stand you know in front of these people that do like a line or two and it's it's brutal yeah do you do you go to actual auditions for your show or you just watch tapes
Marc:No, I'll go to some auditions.
Guest:Oh, man, I haven't done that in a long time.
Marc:I'll read with people.
Guest:Oh, that's good, because a lot of times you're thinking about chemistry with people.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, and it's just, I think it's nice.
Marc:But then it's still like, you know, then you still kind of run, like I ran into some woman who auditioned and didn't get it, and it's sort of like, oh, hey, yeah, no, you were really good.
Marc:How's everything going for you?
Marc:I'm sorry about that.
Marc:You know, you could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Marc:That was the last time I went in on anything.
Guest:I always think about it because I'm actually just watched auditions on tape.
Guest:For Eagleheart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just think about each person, just the amount of time they might have had to sit in traffic to get there or thought they put into this stupid one line where they get shot in the head or whatever.
Marc:Well, I guess part of it is, I don't know, there's a selfishness to projecting what we're taking.
Marc:They've chosen their life.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:We're sitting here like, oh, you poor person.
Marc:You had to drive in and wear your audition suit.
Guest:I have this thing where I'll always feel so bad for like, imagine how lonely people must be or just like, oh, they probably just left and started crying.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And we're the people still sitting there thinking about that.
Guest:So who's really, who's fucked up?
Guest:They're like, you're moving on to something else and we're like-
Guest:like eating something and their mind is is not thinking about anything yeah i do i do that same thing and i try not to do it because i don't think it's it's obviously a fiction that we're creating it's so easy and comfortable to create uh fictions of how sad everyone's life must be probably not
Marc:No, they're probably not.
Marc:Well, let's think about it, because I'm dealing with some of this stuff in therapy, actually.
Marc:That because if you're sitting there, there's some part of you or me, like when I'm thinking about that, that I want to feel bad for somebody.
Marc:Probably me.
Marc:I want to experience some shame.
Marc:So if I'm not going to put it on me, why not that guy just walked out?
Marc:You know, like, oh, that guy's probably sad.
Marc:I feel bad for him.
Marc:It's like you just made up a life for a person so you could experience some weird proximity shame.
Guest:Yeah, and also feeling bad for someone puts you in the position of not feeling like that yourself, not feeling like how you imagine they're feeling.
Guest:You just make up people.
Marc:You make up lives for people to make yourself feel a little better.
Guest:And you're like this benevolent, like, oh, these poor people.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:What can I do to help them?
Guest:Well, that's a better position to be in than the person who is actually feeling sad or whatever.
Marc:Yeah, who you're making up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it's sort of some sort of survival mechanism to enable us to go another day.
Guest:Or it's something like, well, their life's not so great.
Guest:Like, oh, they probably go home and like, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't know how you find joy.
Marc:Have you experienced joy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lots of joy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I've been really lucky.
Guest:I mean, I've made a lot of mistakes and had like a lot of like shitty times.
Guest:But yeah, no, the past couple of years I've been pretty happy.
Guest:where did you go to college for a year um i went to sarah lawrence college which is uh are you a girl did i did i miss something yeah no it's a uh it became uh well i know uh the 70s i think but it's still mostly women no it's kind of a hippie school who else did who else went there i know uh brian de palma barbara walters i think uh yoko ono
Marc:Oh, that's a pretty good lineup.
Guest:Ira from Yola Tango, I think.
Guest:Sure, Ira, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Who else?
Marc:It was kind of a hippie school, kind of groovy liberal arts.
Guest:It was really hippie.
Guest:I think drugs were really... It was like a big...
Guest:heroin school when i went there i think because i think it was because like that was the time it was like a few years after train spotting came out and really like influenced all these kids that made it like seem really cool and i was so shy in college i i lived at home the first year and just drove to class and came back because i don't need college i don't need
Marc:It was in New York, right?
Marc:What part?
Marc:Where was it?
Guest:It was in a town called, I think, not Larchmont.
Guest:Yeah, Bronxville.
Guest:Bronxville.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's like the most expensive school in the country, I think.
Guest:And that was actually...
Guest:that's where some of that commercial money that's where all of it went i think i paid for my first year uh in college in cash and then uh and then just saw like all this money came to me when i was 18 i was like oh that's great i'm rich and then uh just every month would write these checks and then see it go go away more and more and then by the end i was like okay now i'm broke and i was like what am i getting out of this and then that same day i think i checked my balance that's another thing i remember vividly i was like
Guest:Uh, checking my balance at ATM and I was like, wait, I have no more money.
Guest:And I'm like taking three classes about, uh, you know, whatever, like some silly Holocaust thing or whatever, not, not the Holocaust silly, but just some, some kind of meaningless thing.
Guest:And then I was like, I have no money and I'm not learning anything.
Guest:And then, and I didn't get into a film class the first year, but you weren't strung out on heroin.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I didn't do any drugs in college.
Guest:I didn't take advantage of the fact that it was like 80% girls.
Guest:I was at home the first year, and I had a couple friends, and then the second year, I stayed in my room, and I did not take advantage of college at all.
Marc:You were not a social character.
Guest:No, I mean, I wasn't like a weirdo.
Guest:I mean, I had like a group of friends.
Marc:Oh, you were?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You weren't sitting there causing trouble for some roommate, crying.
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:But I did like, I never had a roommate.
Guest:I think I spent a lot of time in my room alone.
Guest:I also like, I was making, the second year I was making, I got into a film class and I made a few shorts and I was just like working on them a lot.
Marc:So it sounds like you used the time pretty well.
Guest:Yeah, but it was all about, like, I got to start doing stuff, and I got to get out of here, and I need, I just was very restless.
Marc:How the fuck did Brian De Palma go to Sarah Lawrence?
Marc:Because he's, like, in his 60s.
Guest:Yeah, I think he must have gone, like, the first year it allowed males in.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I'm pretty sure he went there.
Guest:I could be wrong about that.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm sure he went there.
Marc:I mean, I'm not looking to you for, I could look it up, but I just want you to check your facts when you get home.
Marc:You're going to be dropping Brian De Palma's name.
Guest:I think he made his first film there.
Guest:It shows how little I know about anything.
Marc:What were the films you were making at Sarah Lawrence?
Guest:I made a documentary about my brother, which I was really proud of.
Guest:I haven't watched in years and years, but he...
Guest:He had this thing he actually he's a he knows like sharply he's called in the best show and he has this puppet that he made Which ties in this whole thing?
Guest:He saw this clip on Sesame Street when he was like two or three years old that completely traumatized him and like screwed him up and he was the clip it was a sketch where a
Guest:Bert and Ernie were in this museum in ancient Egypt or like, you know, in Egypt.
Guest:And there was a mummy that looked like Ernie.
Guest:It was like an Abbott and Costello thing.
Guest:And there was like, Ernie would go away and there's this mummy that looked like Ernie that would tap Bert on the shoulder.
Guest:And then Ernie would come back and he'd be like, I swear this thing just tapped me on the shoulder.
Guest:And Ernie would be like, come on, you're just being scared.
Guest:and it was truly scary it was this big like Ernie statue was the one that just had like this blank scary look at his face and would always like tap him and then he'd come back and he'd be like I swear to god this thing just this thing just tapped me he's like you're being crazy and it also I think it really plays into like these like really the kid fears of like
Guest:No one's going to believe me.
Guest:No one takes me seriously.
Marc:So it fucked your brother up?
Guest:And so we saw it, and then it's all he could talk about, and we knew it was this thing that scared him.
Guest:And me and my dad actually teased him a lot about it because we thought it was, like, it was really funny how this thing was just, like, it spooked him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was in college, and I had to make a documentary about something.
Guest:I was like, oh, I'll interview Zach about that Ernie thing, and I'll make some, like, Errol Morris ripoff, kind of like him talking to camera about how this thing... And then talking to him about it...
Guest:realized how much it truly affected his day-to-day life to that day.
Guest:He was like, I guess he was 18 at the time.
Guest:It was still something he thought about constantly.
Guest:And like every night and taking a shower.
Guest:And seeing that, my parents got him into therapy.
Guest:But it was like this thing that, it was like this pretty meaningful thing for us.
Guest:It was like, oh, my God.
Marc:You helped solve your brother's trauma issues.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so now he makes his own puppets and has this whole puppet thing going on.
Guest:But I think it all comes from that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:He's a puppeteer for a living?
Guest:No.
Guest:He has this puppet that he made named Wally Wackerman.
Guest:Actually, he's hosted the best show a few times as this puppet.
Guest:Tom has brought him on.
Guest:There's all this real emotional ups and downs with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:uh tom kind of became like very obsessed with my family and like started having my brothers host his show and pitting them against each other and um he really uh my little brother harry had a um uh he's he's uh nine years younger than me he's living out here now and he was going to college and had this radio show at uh suny new paul's yeah uh and with with his buddy there and then tom uh
Guest:who I knew at the time, but not as well as I do now, just started calling in.
Guest:It wasn't a call-in show, but Tom would just listen to it and call in pretending to be like the Dean and like really angry that they had played the song Rich Girl because it had the word bitch in it.
Guest:And Harry called himself the H-Man on the radio and he'd be like, you got the H-Man.
Guest:He's like, hey, this is Dean Richards.
Guest:And he's like, oh, this is Harry.
Guest:And Tom would just start giggling and hang up.
Guest:And then he just started having Harry host his show.
Marc:Tom, he's the best.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when you dropped out.
Guest:So I was just, I was like, I'm going to make a movie.
Guest:I'm going to write a movie.
Guest:I'm going to write an indie movie.
Guest:We're going to go to, we'll make it for no money.
Guest:So I shot over the summer.
Marc:Now that you told me it's Sarah Lawrence, I no longer think it's that impressive that you talked four people out of Jacksonville.
Guest:No, they were high school friends.
Guest:They had gone to schools all around the country.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:That's okay.
Marc:Still impressive.
Marc:So you had to do some outreach.
Guest:I was like, we're going to get the gang back together.
Guest:We're going to make a movie.
Guest:We're all become famous.
Guest:And then we made it, and it was terrible.
Marc:What was the movie?
Guest:Oh, it was really, truly awful.
Guest:I think I've managed to get most copies destroyed.
Guest:It hasn't.
Guest:It's not really floating around.
Guest:But it was just like one of these movies where like just like a kind of shitty 90s inward like movies when people thought their own lives were worth making movies about with kind of like within it.
Guest:And it thought it was saying something about it kind of becomes this big action movie by the end.
Guest:But it was really in hindsight more about just making every mistake that I could in a not very public or expensive way.
Guest:But I did feel like... I mean, I watched it.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is terrible.
Guest:We didn't really get it anywhere except one film festival in San Francisco.
Guest:It was in the worst neighborhood.
Guest:And we were the only people in the audience.
Guest:So we drove across the country and went to this thing.
Guest:And as I came back home... You were the only people in the audience?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There were two other drunks there.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:And so I was like, well, this is it.
Guest:And so I was 20.
Guest:I was like, well, I tried, and I'm done.
Guest:And I reapplied.
Guest:All right, I told school I was going to come back.
Guest:But then while we were looking for a location in this movie, in this coffee shop, this guy overheard me, and then he wound up calling me a few months later.
Guest:The editing guy.
Guest:Yeah, he called me while I was at Sundance.
Guest:We'd gone to Sundance in, I guess, 2000.
Marc:With that movie?
Guest:Yeah, but not, but just to, just like literally with it, like holding a tape of it, like without any plan beyond that.
Guest:That was your idea?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We'll just go.
Guest:Yeah, we'll take it to Sundance.
Guest:We'll take this tape there.
Guest:And we'll lay it down on Main Street.
Guest:Where do we show this?
Guest:Is there a VHS player, a high eight player?
Guest:There are people that do that.
Guest:We weren't nearly that industrial.
Marc:Well, that was probably before Slamdance, too, right?
Guest:Slamdance was there.
Guest:I remember driving up the hill and going there and just being really depressed and being like, well, yeah, I'm not part of this.
Guest:I don't know why I came here.
Guest:It was also part of this thing.
Guest:I was like, I don't want to come back here unless I have a reason to.
Guest:Just because it was really stupid.
Guest:That whole period was about making every mistake I could.
Marc:It's important to do that.
Marc:I mean, don't you look back on it in retrospect?
Marc:I mean, you obviously had some balls to do that.
Guest:Yeah, more than I would now.
Guest:I don't know why my parents were so cool with me just dropping out.
Marc:Well, I mean, teachers are... I mean, they probably were encouraging your creativity.
Marc:I mean, what's the worst that could happen?
Marc:You weren't on drugs.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:No, I was a good kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so...
Guest:Yeah, but right now, I want to have an apartment.
Guest:So I don't think I would do anything that risky.
Guest:But yeah, I had big plans back then.
Guest:And so I came back.
Guest:I was like, hey, I'm done.
Marc:And then by coincidence, this guy pulls you into this gig?
Guest:Yeah, just by coincidence.
Guest:And then I was like, well, I'll do this for a few months.
Guest:I'll go back to school.
Guest:I wound up staying there.
Marc:But I like that story, though, because it's in an editing house.
Guest:Yeah, we made training videos for software like Photoshop and After Effects, Final Cut.
Marc:But I like when things like that work out in life where, despite whatever you may have been thinking at the time, it was exactly the education that you needed.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, everything is that.
Guest:I guess, but I mean, that was practical.
Guest:That was literally that, yeah.
Guest:That was actually the education thing.
Marc:You probably couldn't have gotten the hands-on experience you got there at school.
Marc:You just sort of were forced to learn how to cut movies.
Guest:Well, even at school, they didn't have the equipment of Final Cut and digital stuff.
Guest:I remember when I was working on these films I did in school, I would go to my dad's middle school class and sit in the back of the room working on a computer while he was teaching and edit.
Marc:You had to go to middle school to use equipment that the college didn't have?
Guest:Yeah, because they still had big film flatbed editors and stuff like that.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Were you cutting tape?
Guest:Yeah, I was just editing.
Guest:I was getting film in school.
Guest:I shot one thing on 16 millimeter and edited it by hand.
Marc:So they were still doing that.
Marc:That must have been like the last year or two.
Marc:I can't imagine that that education is even available or unless it's some sort of weird retro kind of like who wants to learn how to do it the old time you like.
Marc:Like they have one machine for classicists of some kind.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it seems like a – Film archivist.
Guest:Or like a – that's like a colonial Williamsburg kind of – like, yeah, like, oh, if you want to see how people did it 100 years ago, that's the only reason you would.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:I wonder, like, about that, that there really is no reason to teach that type of editing unless someone's working in that medium for artistic reasons or an archivist of some kind.
Marc:I mean, I can't imagine.
Guest:That's got to – yeah, that's the only reason.
Marc:Because there's no practical – it's not needed anymore.
Guest:It's good to learn that way.
Guest:It's good to have done that just because it's so much different than computer editing because you're making destructive decisions.
Guest:You're actually cutting things with scissors.
Marc:You can't put back.
Guest:You can put back, but it's like a hassle that just involves tape.
Marc:Can you imagine how long it took three people to cut movies?
Guest:I can't imagine that any movie was made before now.
Guest:It's mind-blowing.
Marc:I mean, the time budgets must have been so different.
Marc:But I think also there was a confidence that you sort of like had to make decisions and like, that's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it's like if we're going to bring this back or we want to make some cuts, it's going to take another year.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, whereas like now it's sort of like, can you get it done two hours?
Marc:Yeah, we can do it.
Marc:We can get a new copy of in two hours.
Guest:Yeah, it's a completely different way of thinking.
Marc:The confidence involved in it, that's what's sort of amazing is that when you even look at writing, where it's sort of like this was the... Typewriter, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that was the decision they made.
Marc:There's no cut and pasting.
Marc:There's no like, what's on my clipboard?
Guest:Yeah, like any screenplay for any movie back in the day, like if you had to change the line, you either retype the whole page or you had to paint white paint for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There was like, you know, that was it.
Marc:You know, those ideas.
Marc:I mean, are they more pure?
Marc:Are they more confident?
Marc:Do they come?
Marc:Like, I don't know.
Marc:I'd have to really think about that and probably write a long paper on it.
Guest:Well, that's like tweets right now.
Guest:Once they're out, they're out there in the world.
Guest:There's no turning back.
Marc:And that's great work being done.
Marc:That can really bite you in the ass, that one.
Guest:I delete most tweets that I put up.
Marc:But they'll still be in people's feeds until they refresh it, though.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:And sometimes afterwards, yeah, sometimes there'll be ghosts that go out there.
Marc:And then there's always assholes that will copy it.
Guest:Oh, that's the worst.
Guest:Remember this one?
Marc:You fuck.
Marc:That was the one with the nine typos.
Marc:I got it down to three.
Marc:I can't seem to get through 140 characters without two typos.
Marc:Well, you had some... Wait, was I reading something that you had some meltdown about a business you started?
Guest:Oh, yeah, that was this...
Guest:I had put out, that was this thing I had done between seasons of Eagleheart.
Marc:You had a big idea.
Guest:It was a really stupid idea.
Guest:I wanted to see if I, the original idea was I wanted to see if I could sell something that I thought was really bad and stupid.
Marc:Oh, that was the original idea?
Marc:It wasn't a clever thing?
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:It was a joke.
Guest:It was a joke.
Guest:It was like, oh, if I put Jay Leno's face on one of those Che Guevara shirts, I bet idiots would buy that, like dumb college kids or whatever.
Guest:Did you market it like that?
Guest:no i was oh why mark i i uh i so i was like oh and then i wanted to see you know what i've been watching uh that show shark tank a lot and i've been thinking like an entrepreneur and i was like oh i wonder if i could make money out that or i wonder like if i could put out a thing yeah and i put it out and then as soon as i i put it out uh people were like oh that who is they didn't know it was him and they it looked like a monkey or whatever and so then i started kind of acting like i was freaking out and i started posting guys i i i had 18 000 of these shirts printed up i need you can't tell me it doesn't look like him you didn't have no i
Guest:I hadn't made any of them.
Guest:No, actually, I am a hoax.
Guest:Yeah, but it wasn't thought out.
Guest:It really just happened step by step.
Marc:I was going to feel bad for you.
Marc:I thought you had a big idea and you sunk some change into it.
Marc:I've done that.
Marc:I've had t-shirt ideas that I've executed.
Marc:They don't sell.
Guest:Well, I did wind up losing a good deal of money on that whole thing because then it became something that was just fun and I just kept acting like I was putting out all these terrible shirts and just digging the hole deeper and deeper.
Guest:And then actually a few people wanted to buy them.
Guest:I think I sold a couple hundred shirts.
Guest:And so every time I put out a new one in the screen printing or whatever, they make the screen and all this shit.
Guest:And so because of costs associated with that, I wound up losing a few hundred bucks.
Guest:That's not bad.
Guest:That's not bad.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's not bad.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:It was really fun.
Guest:I believe the hoax.
Marc:I thought like, oh, this is a, I know this kind of thinking.
Marc:You got a big idea.
Guest:That was something because people started writing articles about it and I was married briefly and my ex-wife emailed me.
Guest:It was like, I read online you're having a meltdown.
Guest:Are you okay?
Guest:gay i was like oh no it's totally it's fake it's a comedy you can actually get your ex-wife to care about you what how long were you married i was married for a year and a half i think yes and uh but we were together for uh seven something years and so you got married at like six twenty five years yeah yeah you were five years yeah felt like you had to do it
Guest:Uh, yeah, yeah, it was, it was, um, I think it was also because, I mean, I, uh, I, we met at a, uh, Bell and Sebastian concert at, uh, Hammerstein Ballroom in New York, and, and I was 22.
Marc:So it was, and then it had such an impact on you, the concert.
Marc:It was so romantic.
Guest:It was like the gayest place to me.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:It's like the most indie.
Guest:It's all a lie.
Guest:It was like everything is very twee and feeling like, oh, this is the most perfect.
Guest:And that was a lot of it was like, I mean, and she's great.
Guest:We're completely friends now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we haven't spoken in a few years, but we will email every couple months and check in on each other.
Marc:Apparently when you have a problem, she'll, if she's concerned.
Guest:Yeah, she's really nice.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You okay?
Guest:No, we were much, I mean, we had a pretty tumultuous relationship, but we were much better as friends than trying to be together.
Guest:And also, I mean, what happened was we were living in Brooklyn eventually, and then we got married, and then she really didn't ever want to live in L.A., and I promised her.
Guest:I was like, well, I can work in New York.
Guest:We won't have to move to L.A.
Guest:And then pretty soon after, I realized, like, almost everyone I knew in comedy and everything had moved out here.
Guest:And so I was like, yeah, I think we have to move to L.A.
Guest:And so she came out here for a few months, and it just didn't work.
Guest:Crushed her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's hard.
Guest:It's hard not being in show business living here.
Guest:I can't imagine why.
Guest:I love it here, but I don't know that I would live here.
Marc:Well, I think that also, like, if you're really, you know, if New York is really your home, you know, if you don't look at L.A.
Marc:as some sort of, it's easy to compare the two, but you can have a pretty good quality of life here.
Marc:So it seems that New Yorkers that are really kind of real New Yorkers, they'll end up figuring out a way to get back there.
Marc:but eventually people get seduced by this garbage out here they start you know everything they always said they would never do in la they're like it really is pretty nice you know what i mean but it can be kind of isolating and yeah for someone when you're with somebody that's not in show business they they uh either they have the fortitude to uh you know uh kind of have their own life or they just spend a lot of time resenting yours
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that's, you know, I think that's basically what happened.
Guest:But our situation was always that, because I was working on this show, Human Giant, when we were in New York, and I would just, like, live there.
Guest:I would edit the whole show myself, pretty much.
Guest:And it was always this... We would always just fight about how much I was invested in work versus home.
Guest:And then home life seemed just like an obligation.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Marc:Like, oh, there she is again.
Guest:But that's how...
Guest:It's really, and that was really my first real girlfriend, and so I just had all these very wrong ideas about what a relationship should be.
Marc:Well, you had probably standard.
Marc:Well, what do I know I'm projecting?
Marc:But you believe that there's this normal, or there's a way to go about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then when you can't do it, you think there's something wrong with them, and then eventually you move into, like, you know, I hate you.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, everyone, I don't know if it gets better with experience.
Guest:You ask me.
Guest:Does it?
Guest:No.
Marc:You just have to know what you want and be willing to make compromises.
Marc:And I think that's really what it comes down to is that it shouldn't be that big of a chore.
Guest:It shouldn't.
Guest:That's what I realize.
Guest:That's what I realize now.
Marc:I just realized it.
Marc:I'm 50.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it really.
Guest:But it's something you can know and not really, really know you because you hear from everyone in books.
Guest:And I remember reading books and you Google all the time.
Guest:It's like, OK, relationship is work.
Guest:But it's it's it should be the kind of like it's not it's not a drag.
Guest:It should be good work.
Guest:It should be like you want to do something.
Marc:Yeah, but when you have the mindset that you do, the foundation should be easy.
Marc:But in the same way that we were talking earlier about projecting lives onto people, is that if you're that kind of person, if you're kind of self-involved and you like to be engaged in what you're doing, but you never quite think that your life compares to other people, that it's very hard because then all of a sudden you're not sure what you want.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was so ambivalent about everything for years.
Guest:Except work, I knew what I wanted to be doing.
Marc:And you accomplished good things.
Marc:You're a hard worker.
Guest:I work hard, yeah, definitely.
Guest:I mean, I don't like too much of what I've done, but I feel like I could do better.
Marc:But the weird thing is that you, I mean, you're almost an hour in, we can get into your career, is that I was thinking about Human Giant, is that...
Marc:I don't know how it came about, but we can talk about that.
Marc:But you were kind of involved at a very early point in guys that actually followed through and had full-on comedic potential and became big comedy stars.
Marc:And you were just... I don't know how you guys came together.
Marc:You can tell me.
Marc:But it's sort of an interesting thing that Scheer and Hubel and Ansari and a couple of the other bit players and some of the stuff are still very...
Marc:you know, high-level comedy stars.
Guest:Yeah, it's great that everyone's doing so well.
Guest:It really was, basically, like, for my end, I was working at this job, editing all the time, and then going to a lot of comedy shows and going to, like, Tinkle, do you remember?
Guest:Yeah, with Todd.
Guest:todd and benjamin across and and uh and uh luna and all and then and just seeing a lot of stuff i liked and then also uh just making shorts and but i never like hustled or anything i would just like kind of be around and make stuff and i wound up just making did i ever meet you was i around no i don't think i i used to see you all the time um i don't think we were talking to each other i think i was intimidated so you're going around you're making shorts you weren't too pushy
Guest:No, it wasn't too pushy.
Guest:I saw some people hustled and I just didn't want to do that.
Guest:And so I just made things and wound up just showing things every month.
Guest:And also really building up confidence again and really trying to be hard on stuff I was doing after this terrible movie.
Guest:And so trying to just get good at stuff and look at stuff objectively and be like, what could be better about this?
Guest:And then I wound up meeting, uh, I think Aziz, uh, I'd met him.
Guest:Oh, I was, I was helping program like a short film show, like a monthly show.
Guest:And then I think I saw something Aziz did through that and I met him and then he gave me a call to do this thing with Hubel.
Guest:And then it was this thing about child talent agents.
Guest:Uh, and we shot that and it was really, it was for, uh, there was like a New York offshoot of, uh, channel 101, uh, Dan Harmon, Rob Trapp's thing.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:And we did that, but it was really just an excuse to make something.
Guest:And then I did another thing with Aziz and Shear.
Guest:And we just did, I think, like two shorts.
Guest:I did a couple other things with Aziz, who had a manager.
Guest:And then they got to the head of MTV.
Guest:And he was like, we should do a pilot with you guys.
Marc:Well, the thing that's amazing about watching them now is just how...
Marc:All those guys, more than a lot of sketch people, like Scheer, Hubel, and Aziz just fucking full-on went for shit.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:They're always funny.
Marc:Oh, that's good, yeah.
Marc:They're completely invested in characters, and they had a tremendous range of intensity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like Aziz is like, you know, I hadn't watched that stuff, you know, much.
Marc:I don't know if I ever watched it until recently because it was, you know, I missed it.
Marc:I was kind of old already.
Marc:But the raw talent of that guy, you know, as he's gotten older and more confident and more of a, you know, sort of a celebrity, you sort of forget what people were like when they were like 20 something and just hungry as fuck.
Marc:and just were capable of pushing the envelope to a point where they were challenging themselves comedically.
Marc:And it's pretty amazing to watch because you get a deeper appreciation for all those guys.
Marc:Because as people get older, you're sort of like everyone's just trying to find their thing.
Marc:You know, Paul's obviously, they've all found their things.
Marc:But to see them as younger people as performers where it's all raw and fucking, you know, like everything's on the line.
Guest:Man, I haven't watched that stuff in years, but I should...
Marc:It holds up, dude.
Marc:It's very funny.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Anytime I've seen that recently, it just feels like home movies.
Guest:It feels like I was still just kind of figuring out how to do things on my head.
Marc:Yeah, but still, but sometimes that's the best shit.
Marc:I mean, you know, if you really look at like, you look like British shows, you know, because I've been thinking about this a lot because we're doing the second season of my show, where for whatever reason, because of the way the industry is structured there, they maybe do three seasons.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:And at whatever point it happens in their career, who knows?
Marc:But a lot of those things become celebrated as like sometimes the best work that those people have done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look at the office.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, I know as a creator, you're going to obviously like, well, I would have done that differently now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But still the talent that was harnessed there and the stuff that you were doing because you weren't under a lot of pressure necessarily, you know, in the big picture and you had a little more freedom and you had guys that were like, you know, let's just fucking do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's pretty great.
Guest:Yeah, and we were just doing it.
Guest:We knew nothing about making a TV show, and I was just doing basically an extension of these shorts that I was doing on my own.
Guest:I mean, I held the camera on most of that stuff.
Guest:I really didn't know how a real TV show worked.
Marc:How much were you in the writing, too, or no?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think I wrote as many or more than anybody.
Guest:We all wrote together with Tom Janis, and then we would have a bunch of comedy friends come in and out and pitch ideas and stuff like that.
Marc:And that was a good crew.
Marc:I mean, that was sort of the transition out of stand-up into the beginning of the UCB-dominated world.
Guest:UCB, funny-or-die world.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And also, I just got to...
Guest:meet and work with a lot of, like, heroes.
Guest:Like, Posehn wrote on it a bunch, and Benjamin would come in.
Guest:I met Glazer through that, and, like... Those two guys are, like, some of the funniest.
Guest:Yeah, no, those guys were my complete heroes when I was younger.
Marc:What's interesting to them is that, like, no matter what they do, it's so uniquely them.
Marc:There's not...
Marc:You know, the characters, whatever character Glazer comes up with is so, you know, dug into Glazer.
Marc:Like, you know, there's not a big, not a lot of wigs and whistles.
Guest:No.
Marc:There's just a fundamental, you know, comedy sensibility that they both have that's pretty unique.
Guest:Yeah, writing with Glazer, he would hone in on anything in the room and make anything funny.
Marc:It's an amazing gift.
Marc:I don't really understand it because I have to be reacting to a person or in relation to a person in order to sort of riff, but guys who can just self-generate like that is pretty fascinating to me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, he's like the funniest.
Marc:But you worked a little on Delocated?
Guest:I shot the pilot of Delocated, yeah.
Marc:And you worked with Benjamin, too?
Guest:I've worked on a few things with Benjamin.
Guest:I did a few episodes of his Comedy Central show.
Guest:The man with the van.
Guest:Yeah, John Benjamin has the van.
Guest:But we'd done a few things in New York, just videos here and there.
Marc:And you've shot specials, too, now.
Guest:I did a few, just for Aziz, two for Aziz and two for Patton, yeah, which is work I don't really do too much of.
Guest:There's not a lot I feel you bring to that.
Guest:Yeah, it's just sort of- I feel there are guys that do this live events and multicam stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I had Lance Mang shoot mine.
Marc:Lance is great, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I had a specific thing I wanted.
Marc:But when you do a special, what is the conversation?
Guest:I'm just trying to stay out of the way and present them and what they're doing.
Marc:Do you help choose a venue or any of that kind of stuff?
Guest:No, I haven't helped choose a venue.
Guest:Anytime I've done that, I've just helped with curtain color and lighting.
Guest:It's just another set of eyes for them to be watching and be like, is this coming out okay and this is good?
Guest:And just trying to make directing choices that are highlighting the directing as opposed to the performer and what's being said.
Marc:So now, outside of Eagle Heart, which we'll talk about in a second, are you in development with Aziz to do movies?
Guest:We've written a bunch of movies that, like everything, are just hanging around and creeping forward.
Guest:We sold a few ideas to Judd a few years ago, and then we had one with Scott Rudin that we've been working on, and then one with...
Guest:Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg.
Guest:So there's all these movies that are just, you know, are there and then you work on them.
Guest:They pick up momentum and then they kind of dissipate.
Guest:It's a tough racket, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Getting a movie made.
Guest:It's impossible.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially for me because I've been doing this show Eagleheart the past few years.
Guest:So in between I'll work on these scripts and then once the show gets going I just throw myself into it so much that I kind of stop doing most other things for a while.
Marc:And Eagleheart, in terms of what you come from and what you've shot before, it's definitely a bigger production.
Guest:It's not bigger money-wise, but we want it to feel a lot bigger and look a lot bigger.
Guest:So it just involves a lot more work.
Marc:And what is the fundamental source of the satire?
Marc:Would it be like a Chuck Norris thing?
Guest:It's not really.
Guest:Adult Swim wanted kind of a spoof of a Chuck Norris thing.
Guest:And by the time...
Guest:The two guys who wrote the show, Michael Komen and Andrew Weinberg, were Conan writers who came up with this idea that was kind of around Chuck Norris kind of thing.
Guest:And then a few years later, sold it.
Guest:And then I came on.
Guest:And then we shot this pilot that we wound up throwing out.
Guest:And we're like, well, let's rewrite it from scratch.
Guest:And by that point, all of this, like...
Guest:kind of hacky chuck norris comedy had been done it's like let's not make it about that at all and let's just throw it out and then adult swim uh was like no you can't do that and so that's why he has to like wear the hat and has like kind of a cowboy thing and there are elements of that still but since the beginning we've tried to kind of push away from that and instead of being like a spoofer or a satire or anything you really just do kind of a weird action show with chris elliott at the center of it
Marc:You've worked with these fairly definitive comic personas or these comic performers, like that being Aziz, Paul, Rob.
Marc:You've done some stuff with Patton and John and John.
Marc:And now Chris Elliott, who is the other generation of completely unique comedy sensibility.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It seems to me that Chris's capacity for being darker is much deeper.
Guest:It's really dark, yeah.
Guest:And this season is tremendously dark to the point that we're like, we don't know if it's a comedy show anymore.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, it's the darkest.
Guest:That sounds great.
Guest:They let us do this thing where it's one, it used to all be kind of just these 11 minute episodes, which were almost like Looney Tunes cartoons.
Guest:And there's always like sadness and my favorite stuff was like- Were you using that as a point of reference?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:In your mind?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or just in that there was this cast and then each week, or almost like Three Stooges or whatever, where it would be the same people, but it would reset and they'd just be doing a different thing each week.
Marc:So it was almost like it was just a way to get these performers in situations.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah and it was really in other years you had the set yeah we had the set we had we had chris elliott uh maria thayer and brett gellman who are i just saw brett i almost ran him over like it was very funny i didn't almost run him over but like i pull up it was like at sunset in alvarado i was driving home and it was like midnight and i just see brett walking in the sidewalk laughing to himself oh god and i and i opened the window i said you can laugh but no talking
Marc:He's such a sweet guy.
Guest:Yeah, I love him.
Marc:He knew he'd been caught, you know, right?
Marc:And he runs up, he's like, we gotta hang out sometime.
Guest:Oh, that's, yeah, classic, classic helmet.
Guest:Hey, buddy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and so we had these three stars that were super funny.
Guest:Very unique talent, those guys.
Guest:Yeah, and they were really great together.
Guest:Yeah, she's brilliant.
Guest:But it was also really just like a venue for these conceptual comedy ideas of taking almost like sketch comedy ideas, but working a story in or trying to fit as many ideas in like the 11 minutes that Adult Swim gives you.
Guest:And then this year, they let us do one big story, which it's kind of like this very...
Guest:there's still hopefully funny things in it but it's like very heavy and it's all about like this really tragic event at the beginning and then Chris kind of his life falling apart and all this stuff and so well he's like that like that you know the kind of risks that he's willing to take and does sort of it's just his nature yeah um
Marc:You don't see it much anymore.
Marc:And it's sort of a rare thing.
Marc:I mean, it was sort of, you know, Michael O'Donohue from, you know, Lampoon and the original SNL that there was a school of comedy that it kind of went beyond shock into something, you know, a little more disturbing because it was a little deeper.
Marc:And there's like, I don't know anybody that that there's no place for that in the mainstream anymore, really.
Guest:Yeah, there's not a lot of stuff that's really unsettling in comedy right now or disturbing or super challenging.
Guest:It seems like right now is kind of the moment of like the good guy in comedy.
Marc:Or the good guy, but also, you know, snark is sort of like it's almost like a virus.
Guest:I think it is.
Marc:And, you know, it kind of just by its nature implies an emotional distance, which means it's risk adverse.
Guest:Well, I've talked to Tom about this a lot.
Guest:Snark is kind of like the end of the world because it's the easiest reaction to anything.
Guest:It's just like saying meh to everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like the tone of a lot of blogs and definitely, you know how everyone, you know, like the result of Twitter is saying, oh, everyone has the same, can make the same jokes, make the same reaction to everything.
Guest:And anything that comes out, the easiest reaction is just like meh.
Marc:And we others that.
Marc:But there's also that the mild condescension of, you know, kind of inane cleverness.
Guest:That's yeah.
Guest:It's like, oh, it's like, what's my take on this?
Guest:It's the same joke, though.
Marc:It's like every it's a disposition that, you know, it's it's it's entitled.
Marc:It's insulated.
Marc:It it it completely avoids emotional interaction.
Marc:It's almost designed to sort of like assume a condescending wisdom of something.
Marc:We don't have to know anything.
Guest:You don't know anything, but you're instantly able to make yourself above something.
Marc:I think that's the type of personality that massive content-driven pop culture creates because people just use point of references.
Marc:It's like whatever early Dennis Miller unleashed as some sort of farce of intelligence has now become the cultural norm.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of... No, it's like the end of comedy.
Guest:Because, yeah, it's true.
Guest:Like, everyone... Okay, everyone is funny now in that way.
Guest:It shows you that, okay, everyone can do that.
Marc:That's a good point, man, because I was trying to think about it the other night.
Marc:When I was at the comedy store and there's literally three rooms of comedy going, you know, different levels, you know, summer bringer shows and amateurs.
Marc:And I'm like, when did how did I know it's a weird thing where, you know, we all knew that we were culturally narcissistic.
Marc:But then how did that translate to like no one's afraid to get on stage anymore?
Guest:I mean, that was the one obstacle.
Marc:to everyone not doing this and now they feel like they're entitled to it because uh because of content driven because the idea that hey anyone could do anything with their phone i mean i think creatively that's a good idea but it's just not true no and it's just yeah we have this setup now where it's like everyone is like i love my fans
Guest:It's like everyone's on Twitter and everyone has X amount of 100 or X amount of 1,000 people, which are mostly, I think, robots.
Guest:But it's just like I'm putting out there and I'm getting a response from fans in the way that just didn't used to be available to everyone like that.
Guest:And now it is.
Marc:And also there's the reality that social media, unfortunately,
Marc:Aside from the snark element, everyone's just waiting for the next feeding frenzy.
Marc:They're sort of like, what?
Marc:Where's some bullshit controversy that we can all just clusterfuck into and celebrate in a negative way?
Guest:There was even like the Boston bombings where they're hunting for that guy.
Guest:If you looked on Twitter, which I don't know, I check that shit way too much.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:But anytime anything would happen, oh, he's on a boat and then a thousand people make the same joke.
Guest:And it's like, okay, everything that happens, everyone's going to make the same snarky joke.
Guest:It's like we're just like everyone's staying with their guns drawn, like ready to snark on everything.
Marc:Ready to snark on everything with like a very comfortable distance.
Marc:yes that that the sad thing is is that impactful events happen and and then you know within hours you know people are just sitting there chomping at the bit it's like how long i just got such a good one but it seems it seems inappropriate like the the the immediate feeling is not any sort of compassion or empathy or concern it's like i gotta get the this joke i mean someone's gonna do it if i don't do it and then you like throw your hat in the ring and hope no one goes like that's a little insensitive you know
Guest:Yeah, it's, no, I think it's changed everyone's brains for those words.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like compassion is out.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Just the immediate condescension with cleverness is in.
Guest:Well, it used to be just like a really specific kind of brain that would be like, see anything that happens, be like, what's my take on this?
Guest:Or what's my like witty take on this?
Guest:Or what's my snarky take on this?
Guest:And now it's like everyone.
Marc:Well, the weird thing is, is that on my special, you know, what Sharpwing was part of, the day I taped my special was the day that happened.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, and I think at some other point in my life, I didn't even know it was happening.
Marc:We were in the dressing room and I'm like, is there something happening?
Marc:And that the bombing had happened and I got to go on stage in an hour.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And, you know, so I don't know if it was Tom or somebody else.
Marc:They're like, are you going to address it?
Marc:Like, how would he do that?
Marc:The facts aren't even in.
Marc:What is there to address?
Guest:What's the funny take on someone just bombed the marathon and people are in chaos and dead?
Guest:Let me call some writers.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think we can get an angle on this.
Guest:Yeah, okay, okay, guys.
Guest:This is what we're in it for.
Guest:It's crunch time.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:These are weird lessons that you learn is that I had there was no way to address it.
Marc:But but I had said that, you know, when when Louis was doing his first letter, I think it was like his first letter.
Marc:It was literally like a day or two after the Oklahoma bombing.
Marc:And I remember talking to him and literally saying to Louis CK, like, you got it.
Marc:You got to talk about how you're not going to talk about it.
Marc:And apparently he went to Bob Morton, who was producing the show at that time.
Marc:And Bob said, you know, we know this happened and everything.
Marc:And he told Bob Morton, he said, yeah, Maren said I should address it.
Marc:And Bob Morton said, yeah, that's why Maren's not doing the show.
Marc:But it was a lesson that I couldn't learn.
Marc:And it wasn't so much that I was snarky, but I think that there is another reason why people go there as quickly as possible is that there's built in juice that you're you're you know, no matter how mundane or inane, whatever you're going to comment is, you know, you're you're latching on to something that is loaded.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And and you're going to ride that out for better or for worse.
Marc:But I think that when you deal with somebody like like like Chris Elliott, who has a mind of of of sort of, you know, confusing, emotionally dark comic sensibility that, you know, that juice is, you know, that's a responsible artist who's going to take risks in a way that's compelling.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and he's just so separated from everything else.
Guest:And I just feel if you look at stuff even from 20, 30 years ago, it still feels fresh.
Guest:Yeah, he's his own time zone.
Marc:It's not hinging to anything other than his sensibility.
Guest:Yeah, and it came out so formed, too.
Guest:I mean, and he just had this kind of blind confidence when he was like in his early 20s and doing bits on Letterman.
Guest:He's just like the funniest person.
Guest:because his attitude then and now was just kind of like, fuck you to everything and gives a shit.
Guest:He's a very nice guy.
Guest:Sweetest, sweetest man.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's the best, but he definitely has a well of dark stuff that we definitely take advantage of in Eagle Heart.
Marc:Now, you worked with Smigel as well?
Guest:I did, there was a live action Ace and Gary ambiguously gay duo for SNL a couple years ago he did.
Marc:He's another guy that's just sort of like, you know, where's that genius come from?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, he's just so funny.
Marc:I was watching clips that Conan was running clips, you know, the insult dog.
Guest:Oh, yeah, Triumph, yeah.
Guest:He's so quick.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:Like, it's like, where does that come from?
Guest:Yeah, and he's another one who has this kind of work ethic that's been handed down.
Guest:When we worked on that thing at SNL, we really just lived there for days on end and just worked, slept on the couch in shifts and just kept working on it.
Guest:I got to talk to him.
Guest:We shot it.
Guest:I think that was two-day shoots, and the last one was like 25 hours straight or something like that.
Guest:And yeah, he's another one that I just really admired everything he did growing up and was lucky enough to have been able to work with.
Marc:All right, so I think we're good.
Guest:Are you good?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, thanks for hanging out.
Guest:Thanks so much for doing this.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:So fun.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:It was fun.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's the show.
Marc:He's a smart guy.
Marc:Fun guy.
Marc:Good story.
Marc:Enjoyed that.
Marc:On Thursday, we have a very interesting episode.
Marc:A comic from the 70s named Billy Braver, who had quit comedy...
Marc:And I thought it would be interesting to talk to somebody who actually quit comedy.
Marc:And I saw this weird little doc on him called Sob Story.
Marc:And then I was like, well, let's talk to that guy.
Marc:Turns out that he kind of wants to get back into it again, though.
Marc:God, just never gets out of you.
Marc:Never gets out of you.
Marc:It's an interesting episode.
Marc:It's not the standard fare.
Marc:I saw Nebraska.
Marc:That was a lovely movie.
Marc:Spectacular.
Marc:Somebody, you know, finally, man.
Marc:Alexander Payne kind of really did something with that digital black and white, man.
Marc:It looks like a fucking Dorothea Lange photograph, everything.
Marc:Just a beautiful composition.
Marc:The story was awesome.
Marc:Will Forte was great.
Marc:Brie Stern was great.
Marc:The woman that played the mom, holy shit.
Marc:She was a powerhouse.
Marc:Great movie.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Pick up some stuff if you want some stuff.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Leave a comment.
Marc:We got new stuff coming in the new year.
Marc:Things are changing.
Marc:I'm going to try to make new things happen for WTF listeners.
Marc:I'll probably pick up more speed in February after I get done shooting the show.
Marc:But seriously, have a good holiday.
Marc:Try to take it easy.
Marc:Alright?
Marc:I hope you got the right thing for everybody.
Marc:I hope you get the thing you want.
Marc:It sucks when you get a present you don't want.
Marc:When you guys sit there and act like you wanted it.
Marc:Try not to resent the person for not understanding you at all.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Here's your thing that was much more thoughtful.
Marc:Enjoy that.
Marc:Wish I could hit you with it.
Marc:Merry Christmas.