Episode 42 - Seattle Road Trip
Guest 5:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Guest 5:What the fuck?
Guest 5:With Mark Maron.
What the fuck?
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And what the fuck am I doing standing behind a dumpster in a strip mall in Kirkland, Washington?
Marc:The mall is called the Totem...
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It's called the Totem Square.
Marc:And this is where the glamorous life of comedy can bring you sometimes.
Marc:I'm out behind the dumpsters because I don't want to make a scene wandering around with my microphone because there's a dude standing out front smoking a cigarette.
Marc:Saw me walk by and said, what are you doing?
Marc:I said, what do you mean what I'm doing?
Marc:Just because I'm walking down the street with a large vocal mic and a portable flash recorder with a headset on.
Marc:What business is it of yours?
Marc:I didn't say that.
Marc:I said, look, buddy, I'm doing some radio.
Marc:So here's the what the fuck, and I'm going to be honest with you because I generally am.
Marc:It's very hard sometimes when you do comedy to enter a new world, to drive 15, 20 miles out of a major metropolitan area to a club in a strip mall called Laughs and think that your career is on the right trajectory.
Marc:It's difficult.
Marc:And I know some of you will think or say, hey, quit whining, Mark.
Marc:You're doing okay.
Marc:We listen to your podcast.
Marc:Yeah, I'm 46 years old.
Marc:I've watched many of my friends go on to play theaters and there's part of me that wants to do that.
Marc:So sometimes it's hard for me not to be condescending.
Marc:I get to places like this, you know, and I'll tell you, honestly, great club, though it's in a strip mall with a let's let's take a look at the other businesses in the strip mall.
Marc:And don't don't misunderstand me.
Marc:I am on the marquee of Totem Square here in Kirkland.
Marc:But let's see.
Marc:We've got we've got we've got a cigar bong place.
Marc:We've got the I love teriyaki store.
Marc:Then there's a sign that just says nails.
Marc:Just nails.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then we've got a savvy salon.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:And there's a faux place at the end.
Marc:Now, is this where I thought I'd be?
Marc:Oh, wait.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Don't let me forget the bead hut.
Marc:The bead hut is here as well.
Marc:If anyone's wondering, that's Totem Square in Kirkland, Washington, across from the Infinity dealership.
Marc:So I judge.
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I walk into a room and, you know, Friday night first show is very packed.
Marc:And I thought, well, who are these people?
Marc:They couldn't have come to see me.
Marc:And then I think like, oh, fuck this.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:Why am I doing in this suburb?
Marc:You know, fuck these people.
Marc:They don't care who I am.
Marc:And then I think like, that's horrible, Mark.
Marc:Why are you judging?
Marc:Because you're disappointed because you're not where you want to be at this point in your life.
Marc:Or maybe maybe you're almost where you need to be.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:But the fact is, I feel bad for judging because I get very misanthropic when I get self-pitying or angry.
Marc:I'm like, fuck everybody.
Marc:I deserve better.
Marc:And then I did a great show and they were a great audience.
Marc:And all of a sudden, I don't hate everybody.
Marc:I love everybody.
Marc:We're all just people united by a common thread of humanity, even though it's a little buried in some people.
Marc:But you can tap into it if you make them laugh and find the fear and find the sadness and find the anger.
Marc:And everybody groups around that and has a good chuckle.
Marc:So I begin the weekend misanthropic.
Marc:And now all of a sudden, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter where anybody's from because we are all just people.
Marc:I'll tell you what happens after this show.
Marc:Because I'm in the parking lot.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:I'm going to swallow my nicotine gum.
Marc:So I'm up here in Seattle, which is bittersweet.
Marc:My ex-wife is from Seattle.
Marc:I've been coming to Seattle for years.
Marc:There's a few things I like to do here.
Marc:I like to go to Jack's Fish Club.
Marc:Counter in Pike's Market and eat fried scallops.
Marc:I've done that with two wives.
Marc:And now I met my girlfriend up here because she lives in New Mexico.
Marc:So I've done that with three women.
Marc:I like to stand out and look over Puget Sound.
Marc:I like to wander around the streets in the rain, in the grayness.
Marc:Well, here's something that happened.
Marc:I'll tell you what happened.
Marc:I wasn't going to tell you, but I'll tell you because I think it was a nice moment of sharing.
Marc:They got me put up at a place called the Nexus Hotel, which I looked up on the Internet.
Marc:I Googled it.
Marc:I Googled the Nexus and it was presented on the Internet as one of those sort of hipster places like this is one of those groovy places that groovy people go.
Marc:And we get there and there's something a little off about it.
Marc:And then I get the lowdown.
Marc:Oh, it was a Ramada.
Marc:This is as if like maybe a Hotel Six fucked Ikea.
Marc:They had this thing.
Marc:It was a Ramada, but they just, you know, they Ikea'd it.
Marc:They got a bunch of cheap sort of Danish modern looking stuff and put it in the rooms.
Marc:We painted everything.
Marc:But structurally, it's still a ramada.
Marc:Structurally, I was still woken up by the guy's phone ringing in the room next door.
Marc:And he answered it at 530 in the morning and started yelling in Spanish.
Marc:So that's not too hip, not too hip.
Marc:But that's where we're staying.
Marc:And I haven't seen the woman that I've been seeing because she was in New Mexico.
Marc:So, of course, we do what people do.
Marc:when they haven't seen each other in a while we get to the hotel and we immediately start having sex now what i didn't realize until after we got done having sex which was good it was it was good it worked out it was very satisfying and uh intense but what i didn't realize was is that the curtains to the room were open and this is one of those hotels that's uh got several floors and you got to get to your door by walking down a balcony so there's
Marc:We're on the fourth floor, and it's the fourth floor balcony, which means there's basically a corridor around the building where people just walk by your room.
Marc:And I realized, oh, my God, we were just fucking, and the window was open.
Marc:It was wide open.
Marc:And I felt shame at first.
Marc:I felt a little exposed, a little vulnerable.
Marc:But then I thought, what a wonderful thing we've done for the people walking by.
Marc:What a gift we've given them.
Marc:Because isn't that what we all want?
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:Let's be honest.
Marc:When you're walking down those long hallways or outdoor balconies, past hotel rooms with windows, you kind of look out the corner of your eyes, see if you can catch a glimpse of something.
Marc:Well, I know what they caught a glimpse on, and it was a full-on fuckfest show.
Marc:We gave that gift to somebody, something that somebody will never forget.
Guest 5:Man, one time we were at the Nexus Hotel, and we were walking down to our room, and we watched these two people fuck for like 20 minutes.
Guest 5:They didn't even see us.
Marc:All right, maybe 20 minutes, we're stretching it.
Marc:But it was long in terms of sex time.
Marc:So what we're going to do with this show that I'm in Seattle is there's a few things I wanted to do when I was here.
Marc:There's a few people I wanted to talk to.
Marc:I don't know if you know about Fantagraphics books or if any of you were sort of into the alternative comic industry.
Marc:in the 90s.
Marc:But I've been a big fan of some of the guys that came out of Fantagraphics here in Seattle, like Charles Burns, Pete Begg, Daniel Klaus, the Hernandez brothers, which I didn't read too much.
Marc:But I got a buddy who I've been sort of in touch with over the years named Eric Reynolds, who's an associate publisher over at Fantagraphics.
Marc:And I'm going to go over to the Fantagraphics store and talk to him about alternative comics.
Marc:And he's going to bring Pete Bagg, who is the author and artist of Hate Comics.
Marc:And I'm looking forward to talking to him.
Marc:And then if we can catch up with her, I'm going to track down an old girlfriend of mine that really changed my life in a lot of ways.
Marc:And we've had a lot of ups and downs over the years, but I've known her 25 years.
Marc:She's a blacksmith.
Marc:She is a welder.
Marc:She is a maker of art.
Marc:Lauren Ismalski will also be on the show.
Marc:So look forward to that and enjoy the rest.
Marc:I'm in the... We're actually in the back room.
Marc:I don't even... I think we're in the stock room.
Marc:Are we, Eric?
Guest 3:This is the damage discount room.
Marc:Oh, so people can actually come here and buy damaged books.
Guest 3:Yeah, exactly.
Guest 3:Books that we can't resell.
Marc:I'm talking to Eric Reynolds, who I've known kind of for years.
Marc:He is... You are the associate publisher for Fantagraphics Books and Comics.
Marc:Now, for those of you who don't know Fantagraphics, they are the most important publishing house on the planet.
Yeah.
Marc:For those of us who are still engaged and defined by comic art, but you also publish a lot of other books, but they do everything from the Peanuts collection to all of, do you do all of our crumb stuff now?
Guest 3:Yeah.
Guest 3:He has several books with other publishers, but we do the most.
Guest 3:And we have the Complete Crumb Comics, which is a library of everything he's ever done chronologically.
Marc:So you get Peanuts to our Crumb.
Marc:That's a big leap from traditional comics.
Marc:But you also did a Popeye collection.
Guest 3:You did a lot of strip collections.
Guest 3:Crazy Cat.
Guest 3:Yeah, Crazy Cat, Peanuts, Nancy, Pogo, Prince Valiant.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So you get really the history of what comics are, certainly in America, and then you go through the underground.
Marc:I think that Robert Crumb is one of the most important satirists of the last hundred years, really.
Marc:And then you get into the Seattle School.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:What defines that?
Marc:Daniel Klaus, Peter Bagg, Charles Burns?
Guest 3:Peter Bagg, Charles Burns, Jim Woodring, Linda Barry's from here, Matt Groening's from here, although we don't publish them.
Marc:Ooh, Matt Groening, that would have changed everything.
Marc:If you just had a couple of those titles, right?
Guest 3:Yeah, exactly.
Guest 3:So, yeah, there's a very rich tradition of alternative cartooning in the Northwest.
Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting that it seems like Fantagraphics really created and helped sort of invent this sort of, you know, comic book nerd alternative emo.
Marc:I mean, there just seems to be something that evolved out of that time that started in something that was essentially gritty in 70s and drugs and sex and fucking and violence into something more punk rock.
Marc:And then it kind of softened into something a little more precious.
Guest 3:Oh, I think that's absolutely true.
Guest 3:But I think going back, you know, there's always every.
Guest 3:for as long as there have been comic books, um, there has, there's always been like an element of, of the comic book culture that, um, I think has really penetrated the larger culture, um, in terms of people like yourself who grew up on them and then went on to go do other things that even though you didn't become a cartoonist, I think you were influenced by, by the comics you read in the same way that, um,
Guest 3:that people read Harvey Kurtzman's Mad in the 50s and went on to, you know, start Saturday Night Live and things like that.
Guest 3:I think you'd have National Lampoon without Mad Comics.
Marc:Well, that's sort of where I come from.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, that's where I come from.
Marc:I come from Mad Magazine, and then I grew into National Lampoon.
Marc:Not in the 50s, but, I mean, I grew up in the 70s.
Guest 3:Right.
Marc:But those were my things, and I was very anti-cracked magazine.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And...
Marc:And then, but I never, I was never a mythological comic guy.
Marc:And I think that for me, you know, when I first read Crumb and when I first read Lampoon, there was something so dirty and so gritty and so human about it.
Marc:That's what drew me to this type of comic.
Marc:Because I can't read, other than like, I got sort of hung up on Sandman and Hellblazer because they were mystical, but never comic book heroes because I liked the humanity of this type of comic book.
Marc:comic sure and i and i think that i don't know i can't i don't like cartoons like i don't like i don't i won't go see animated films really but for some reason our crumb and people like uh pete bagg and charles burns there was something so visceral and so you know challenging and human about this stuff comics have a way of uh they have a real immediacy to them that's it
Guest 3:That's what it is.
Guest 3:They're really immersive really fast.
Guest 3:Right.
Guest 3:And somebody put it to me once that in a prose novel, you're sometimes more of a participant because you're having to visualize what's the written word.
Guest 3:You're kind of an active participant in processing the prose.
Guest 3:Whereas in comics...
Guest 3:They really just put you in there, and it's all there for you right from the get-go.
Guest 3:And there's something transportive about that or something.
Guest 3:And the comics that you're talking about, you say you weren't a mythological guy.
Guest 3:I think most people who gravitate towards those comics would say the same thing.
Guest 3:They're called alternative comics because they are...
Guest 3:uh, existing in, in opposition to something else.
Marc:I guess that's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I, and, and what are the, what are some of the, like I, you guys just put out the, did you put that out or do you just sell it?
Marc:The, the, the, the whole black hole.
Guest 3:We published black hole originally as the, in the, as a comic book series.
Guest 3:Um,
Marc:Charles Burns, that's his name.
Marc:Charles Burns, like, blows me away.
Marc:That's one of my all-time favorite comics, for sure.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's like a fucking masterpiece.
Marc:I mean, because it's mind-blowing.
Marc:It's cryptic.
Marc:It's horrifying, yet completely compelling at the same time.
Marc:It doesn't give you a lot of information, but it gives you just enough.
Marc:And the art is just...
Marc:Spectacular.
Guest 3:It's one of those books like a Mulholland Drive or Inland Empire where the more you revisit it, the more you get out of it.
Guest 3:I know.
Guest 3:It's like something you have to kind of uncode and unlock.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 3:You know, as you go along.
Marc:No, so I've got to read it again.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Like, I couldn't put it down.
Marc:Like, I blew through that thing.
Marc:Like, I bought it, and I blew through it because I'd read it.
Marc:I don't think I read all of the comic editions, but I read most of them.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And it's just like, it is like Lynch, where you're sort of enchanted into this dark world that doesn't completely make sense.
Guest 3:No, but there's enough sense to it that you know there's an internal logic to it that does make sense, even if you're not quite wrapping your head around it when it's happening.
Marc:And also it seems to be framed around the time I went to high school.
Marc:So the haircuts and the sensibility of the kids in there, I was there.
Marc:I mean, I don't know how old he is.
Guest 3:He's probably about your age, I would say.
Marc:I guess now I just want to be a fanboy.
Marc:Is he like a trip?
Marc:Is he freak?
Guest 3:He's a great, down-to-earth, very centered guy.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that kind of weird, kind of spiraling darkness comes out of a down-to-earth, centered guy.
Guest 3:The funny thing is, Black Hole is all set in Seattle.
Guest 3:And he went to Roosevelt High School, which is just about five blocks away from the Fantagraphics offices.
Guest 3:Of course, he graduated 10, 15 years before Fantagraphics even moved there.
Guest 3:But it's kind of funny because the Fantagraphics offices are really steeped right in the middle of exactly what you see in Black Hole.
Guest 3:Yeah.
Marc:It's so awesome.
Marc:Now, let's just go over some of the titles, because I don't know that a lot of my listeners are necessarily comic people or that they would know about Fantagraphics, but I'm always surprised, because I've been on the press list for a while.
Marc:I get full editions of things, and when you guys do something like Black Color, you publish these more kind of provocative, dark, I don't know how else to explain it, and then all of a sudden I get the complete peanuts in the mail.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is this an evolution?
Guest 3:Do you not?
Guest 3:It's all part of the same continuum of good cartooning.
Guest 3:Yeah.
Guest 3:So that's what it is.
Guest 3:It's cartooning.
Guest 3:And Schultz, you know, is a weird figure because he's like the Beatles of comics.
Guest 3:You know, it's like the hipsters like him.
Guest 3:The mainstream likes him.
Guest 3:I mean, he's kind of just unimpeachably great like the Beatles.
Guest 3:And so, you know, to some people, it seems like an odd fit, but it doesn't at all to me.
Marc:And what are some of the what are some of the titles that you guys put out where you're like you think would be surprising to people like Prince Valiant?
Marc:That was one when I was a kid and I was reading the funnies in the Sunday paper.
Guest 3:I never read it.
Guest 3:Oh, hell no.
Guest 3:No, I was the same way.
Guest 3:You know, it's just too text heavy.
Guest 3:And yeah, it was weird.
Marc:And it was like, you know, there were nights.
Guest 3:Yeah.
Guest 3:Yeah.
Guest 3:um you know again like honestly prince valiant's not my favorite strip in the world but um as an example of just pure illustrative skill he was pretty he was about as good as it gets how foster the creator for me um i i came to fan graphics because of dan clowes and peter bagg and charles burns and the hernandez brothers and
Guest 3:So getting to work with those guys is just amazing to me.
Marc:So you've come to some of my shows over the years, and I don't remember how we first got in contact with each other.
Guest 3:Well, we had just moved into our warehouse that we have down on First Avenue near Safeco Field, and we threw an open house, like a housewarming party.
Guest 3:Yeah, yeah.
Guest 3:where we had a sale and open the warehouse up to the public typically the warehouse you know isn't really open to the public right i was stacking up yeah and i remember i went there with who i don't remember with i think you were by yourself i think you were here on tour and i spotted you just mulling around the shelves and i just said you know fuck i know that guy who is that guy yeah
Guest 3:And it was because I'd recognized you from seeing you probably on, you know, The Tonight Show or something like that.
Guest 3:Yeah, on Letterman, maybe.
Guest 3:Yeah, I'm sure it was probably Letterman.
Guest 3:Yeah.
Guest 3:And it just finally clicked, you know.
Guest 3:I was just like, wait a second.
Guest 3:I think that's that Mark, that comedian guy, Letterman.
Guest 3:You know, that guy's really funny.
Guest 3:And so I just went up and started talking to you.
Guest 3:And you had, I believe, just seen an ad in The Stranger and just were looking for something to do because you were in town doing stand-up.
Guest 3:Right.
Guest 3:That must have been a while.
Guest 3:It was probably...
Guest 3:It was easily, you know, probably 12 years ago.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It was before I met my wife who lived here and then, you know, later left me.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But I remember going to that thing and just being thrilled and then getting stacks and we started talking and we, yeah, I, you know, it is to this day.
Marc:when a box comes from you guys it's like christmas at my house and i'm a jew and i don't believe in christmas but when i see that box i'm like oh my god thank goodness you know and then like because i you know i don't i don't seek out comics that much like and i i know patten oswalt and and i met him years ago in san francisco and he's a comic book hound like he would go and like you know and stack up on 90 titles and he knew everything about everything and i just really got attached to uh
Marc:To a few titles, but every time that something came up with you guys, I was like, now I can catch up with Pat.
Marc:Where can they go to see the catalog?
Marc:Website?
Marc:Fantagraphics.com.
Marc:Yeah, get hip to this stuff, folks.
Marc:It'll change your life.
Marc:Eric Reynolds, associate publisher of Fantagraphics Books.
Marc:Thanks for talking to me.
Guest 3:Thank you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Can you hold it up by your mouth?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh, that's perfect.
Marc:You've done this before.
Marc:Once or twice.
Marc:I'm in a band.
Guest 4:Are you?
Marc:How old are you?
Guest 4:I'm 52.
Marc:You're 52?
Marc:And how long has that band been together?
Guest 4:A year and a half.
Guest 4:Oh, God bless you.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:Ain't that something?
Guest 4:God bless you.
Guest 4:Do you play out?
Guest 4:Believe it or not, we have the nerve to play out.
Guest 4:They're all a bunch of geezers.
Guest 4:Just our keyboard player, a guy named Steve Fisk, he's the only experienced musician.
Marc:Oh, he must be having a great time.
Guest 4:Well, so it seems, since there's no money in it.
Guest 4:And then three women, all three who have never...
Guest 4:been in a band in their lives and just learned their instruments i've been in bands in the past but uh the three women this is like the first time ever that they've ever been in a band and we all basically live in the same neighborhood we're all in walking distance to each other my guest right now i'm very excited is pete bagg who is the creator of uh hate comics
Guest 4:There you go.
Marc:But that's your big one, right?
Guest 4:Yes, yes.
Guest 4:That's the most famous one.
Marc:And I remember when I first started reading Hate, it was just like one of these things where I'm like, oh, my God, there's artists out there speaking the same language as me living the same life that I am.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the main character, Buddy, right?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:There was Buddy and Vera.
Marc:There was Valerie and Lisa and Stinky.
Marc:Stinky.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Now, what was the run of Hate?
Marc:What was the window there?
Marc:How many years?
Guest 4:All through the 90s, from 1990 to 98, 99, something like that.
Guest 4:How many issues did you do?
Guest 4:I did 30.
Guest 4:And I still do... I started up a title in 2000 called Hate Annual.
Guest 4:I wanted to keep the... I remember, yeah.
Guest 4:And it hasn't lived up to its name.
Guest 4:After 11 years, I'm working on Hate Annual No.
Guest 4:8.
Guest 4:Is everybody older?
Guest 4:Yeah, I'm still having them, just like in Gasoline Alley, or for better or worse...
Guest 4:Everybody ages in real time more or less.
Guest 4:Oh, that's great.
Guest 4:So I'm told that Gasoline Alley, which started in 1919, something like that, somewhere way back then.
Guest 4:I just learned that it's still in print.
Guest 4:Of course, the original creator died ages ago, but they still hire artists to keep it going.
Guest 4:And they're still aging in real time.
Guest 4:So the main character, Walt Wallet, is now like 110.
Guest 4:And his son is like in his 80s.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:So there must be a lot of prescription medication jokes.
Guest 4:I'm glad they're honoring the intent of the artist.
Guest 6:That's right.
Guest 4:While refusing to let them die.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:That's a rare situation where you have that control to just keep them agey.
Marc:But that's funny that they didn't level them off and just stop them at a certain age.
Marc:And it could be like the Old Testament where everybody lived to be 837.
Guest 4:His son lived to be 633.
Guest 4:They had 900 children.
Marc:So how much impact did zine culture have on the generation of comics that you came from?
Guest 4:Around that time.
Guest 4:What year was that?
Guest 4:1980.
Guest 4:A lot of cartoonists, at least, just like people who were just doing what you'd think of as zines.
Guest 4:A lot of cartoonists started self-publishing, but they did it in all wildly different formats.
Guest 4:From the high end, you'd have Art Spiegelman, who was doing RAW, which was big, physically big, and very glossy and very slick.
Guest 4:But he had a publisher.
Guest 4:No, he published it himself.
Guest 4:Oh, really?
Guest 4:So, believe it or not, RAW, he was self-publishing.
Guest 4:I mean, his wife, Francois.
Marc:Maybe those old RAWs I have are worth some money.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest 4:As long as they're not trashed.
Guest 4:No, I didn't trash them.
Marc:As long as you didn't color in the black and white comics.
Marc:No, I didn't give them to any of my nieces or nephews to use as coloring books.
Guest 4:Yeah, I'm sure they're worth plenty.
Guest 4:And then, of course, Kinko's.
Guest 4:Lots of people did mini-comics.
Guest 4:Yeah, I remember those.
Guest 4:And they were small enough to stick into a regular envelope, and then you'd send it off to friends, and there was tons of those.
Guest 4:Those seemed to especially come out of...
Guest 4:um flyover country people who are stuck in omaha were doing mini comics just like somebody out there recognize what i'm trying to do little cries for help i hate football do you hate football too that would be the name of one of them i hate football
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:In fact, there was a by the time I was pretty established, there was a then very young cartoonist.
Guest 4:He was still in his teens and living with his parents named Chris Cooper, who goes by the name Coop, who became a famous illustrator.
Guest 4:Sort of hot roddy and brothy kind of.
Guest 4:Yes.
Guest 4:He's pretty well known.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:And but he used to write to me when he was just a teenager.
Guest 4:And I would be shocked at how knowledgeable he was.
Guest 4:He lived in a teeny tiny town in Oklahoma.
Guest 4:He had no friends that had anything in common with him.
Guest 4:Nobody that he knew physically had an interest in anything that he was interested in.
Guest 4:But he knew all about Von Dutch and Big Daddy Roth and obscure rockabilly artists.
Guest 4:And when I'd ask him, how is it possible you know all about this stuff?
Guest 4:And he says, it's this wonderful thing called the US mail.
Guest 4:He goes, I live through my mailbox, just constantly sending off, you know, ordering things.
Guest 4:And then that would lead to more things than I get in touch with people.
Guest 4:And he goes, I just keep writing to everybody.
Marc:It's interesting that all you guys know each other and that you had that relationship with him because I would never assume that you and Coop would necessarily be buddies because he's part of that whole, you know, hot rod legacy of Big Daddy Roth and Von Dutch and
Marc:And that's Robert Williams.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you have this Seattle school, which it seemed more of a legacy to the type of stuff you do, which is more organic and more art crummish and more personal storytelling.
Marc:And then you have other marginal type of artists or outsider art.
Marc:And all this stuff seemed to kind of swirl in one big circle and all falls under that umbrella of alternative culture.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:And that whole alternative world was still...
Guest 4:Compared to now, back in the 80s, it was very small.
Guest 4:There used to be a much bigger difference between what was mainstream culture and what was underground or alternative culture.
Guest 4:There were so many books and comics and records that you simply couldn't find like you can now in a Barnes & Noble store.
Guest 4:Yeah, they were very hard to come by.
Guest 4:There's a store – in fact, here in Seattle, there's a bookstore called Bailey Coy, which used to be a go-to place for anybody looking for gay or lesbian literature, anything to do with gay or lesbian culture.
Guest 4:And they were right in the heart of the gay neighborhood in Seattle.
Guest 4:But they used to do a huge mail order business because, again, people –
Guest 4:Poor, isolated people in the middle of nowhere who needed them to access this stuff.
Guest 4:But now they have Amazon.
Marc:They don't need them.
Marc:And to feel less alone and to feel like there were other people that shared their sensibility.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:Well, that's an interesting idea.
Guest 4:And it's very bittersweet.
Guest 4:Now they're going out of business.
Guest 4:They just did go out of business.
Guest 4:Oh, that's sad.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's sort of like that's a weird kind of argument that with the access of the internet and these big companies appropriating or accumulating everything that I think that was really part of The appeal of alternative culture when it started was you had to go find the shit, right?
Guest 4:And you either had to you know someone had to turn you on to it and things felt very either or it was all very either or that changed drastically around 19 Well with Nirvana
Guest 4:And then all of a sudden everything that was weird and obscure did become mainstream.
Guest 4:And the same with me.
Guest 4:I didn't make a five-figure salary until 1989.
Marc:Well, I think that your stuff sort of defined that kind of disenfranchised, lazy on purpose, fuck-it-all disposition in a very personal way.
Marc:And it sort of coincided with the grunge thing, no?
Guest 4:Yes, yeah, that was a weird but very sudden coincidence.
Guest 4:With the Buddy Braddock character that was in Hate.
Guest 4:Buddy, of course, is a stand-in for myself.
Guest 4:He's largely based on myself, even though our lives don't totally match.
Guest 4:But...
Guest 4:He was always 10 years younger than me.
Guest 4:So by the time I started doing that Comicate, I was already making okay money, married, had a kid, owned my own house.
Guest 4:And obviously, Buddy didn't have any of those things.
Guest 4:But he was me 10 years previous.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:And actually, I worked with that character, Buddy Bradley, all through the 80s.
Guest 4:He used to be a teenager living in his parents' house prior to that and earlier comic books I used to do.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he was your alter ego.
Guest 4:Yes, he was.
Guest 4:For years.
Guest 4:Yes, still is, even though I rarely get a chance to work with him.
Guest 4:Now I've got a development deal.
Guest 4:After all these years, I've got a development deal with Fox to make a Bradley family TV show.
Guest 4:Yes.
Guest 4:Really?
Guest 4:Yes.
Marc:Isn't it interesting how long it takes him, I mean, thankfully on some level, to sort of catch up with the idea of it?
Guest 4:Right, right.
Guest 4:And everybody's going to say, what's this new ripoff of The Simpsons?
Guest 4:Even though it's 30 years old.
Guest 4:I don't know if they will.
Guest 4:Hopefully it won't come off that way.
Guest 4:Are you going to do the art?
Guest 4:Well, yeah.
Guest 4:It's all you.
Guest 4:I'm really jumping the gun here.
Guest 4:We're still writing the script.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:It's going well.
Guest 4:So far, so good.
Guest 4:Knock on wood.
Guest 4:But then we still, once they prove the script, then they'll produce a pilot.
Guest 4:And if they like the pilot.
Guest 4:I'm familiar with this process.
Guest 4:Yes.
Guest 4:And it's horrible.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:What's horrible about it is that when you do something as singular as that, like even with my stand-up, if I get a deal based on my stand-up, when I write a script, I'm like, this is my life.
Marc:you know there's no like i'm not imagining this guy right so when they say we're not going to buy it you're like well what am i going to do now that was a big chunk of my life if that chunk of my life is not going to sell that's what i do i manufacture me right and it's very disheartening right and then when you're going through this process they say well look and again you're thinking of it as your life and and it which unfortunately makes you a bit rigid
Guest 4:when it comes to developing it.
Guest 4:So when they start telling you, how about if this alternate version of you... Yeah, how about you're married and you have three kids?
Marc:Right, how about you have a pink pony?
Marc:I can't imagine that.
Marc:Pink pony I could deal with.
Marc:Kids, I don't think I can handle.
Marc:Yeah, that's right, because you do have a pink pony.
Marc:Sure, I got a pink pony and a unicorn and all kinds of flying things.
Marc:But at least you have some distance.
Marc:I mean, at least you know that your character is a character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that should work.
Guest 4:That's right.
Guest 4:That's true.
Guest 4:With a comedian, it must be worse when you're just standing there and the camera is pointing at you.
Marc:Well, some guys are characters.
Marc:You know, I mean, some guys are caricatures of themselves.
Marc:I never was able to make that leap.
Marc:I think that I spent so much time just trying to get to me that the idea of manufacturing some other version of me.
Guest 4:That sounds like a really bad song.
Guest 4:I'm just trying to get to me.
Marc:Maybe that's the path I should take next.
Guest 4:That'd be the theme song.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It should be sung like that, too.
Marc:With my band performing it.
Marc:I think we got a deal.
Guest 6:There we go.
Marc:I'll pitch it.
Marc:I'll drop your name, too.
Marc:What's the name of the band?
Marc:Oh, my God, you'll never remember it.
Marc:We're called Can You Imagine?
Marc:Oh, that'll fit perfectly.
Marc:That's the whole name?
Marc:With the pink pony.
Marc:Oh, yeah, the pink pony and the I'm Just Trying to Get to Me song.
Marc:The hit.
Marc:That's the theme song of the new pilot.
Guest 1:Let's call it that.
Marc:I'm just trying to get to me.
Marc:A hilarious new comedy with troubled stand-up Marc Maron.
Marc:Now, what about the resentment factor, Pete?
Marc:Oh, it's huge.
Guest 4:I knew it had to be.
Guest 4:You don't even have to ask me, tell me what you're referring to.
Marc:well i just mean like you know not unlike my business i mean you guys work hard you put this stuff out there you have a limited sort of fan base because you know what that slowly dies yeah or gets old and forgets that you still publish that's right uh and and that you know your your your market is what it is but i mean you did have a very large following but like when you see someone like uh what's his name matt groaning uh or you see somebody like just transcend into this like you know
Guest 4:the stratosphere financially and popularity wise is there a lot of like yeah no well first of all if it's if it's somebody that i like and i like his or her work i'm i'm sincerely thrilled and happy to see them do well that makes you a good person yeah there you go well well but uh did you work with matt did you know him
Guest 4:Yeah, I've, yeah, I've known him from way back when, back when he used to Xerox little mini comics.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What was the original crew?
Marc:Because I know there was, you know, I know, you know.
Guest 4:Well, he lived in Portland.
Guest 4:No, no, he lived in L.A.
Guest 4:by then.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:But, and again, we would rarely meet.
Guest 4:Like, for example, I was helping Robert Krum at it.
Guest 4:Weirdo magazine in the 80s.
Guest 4:In the early 80s, he asked me to be the managing editor of a magazine.
Guest 4:I remember Weirdo.
Guest 4:Yeah, but I'd been working with him for over a year before I had ever even met him.
Guest 4:We just worked through the mail.
Guest 4:You and Crumb?
Guest 4:Yes.
Guest 4:Was that a big, exciting thing for you?
Guest 4:Yes, of course.
Guest 4:He was my all-time favorite artist, still is.
Marc:He's the best.
Marc:I mean, it's like the mountain.
Guest 4:He's the absolute best.
Marc:I can see that.
Marc:He's the Beatles of comics.
Marc:Yeah, you're like the direct legacy of him, so I imagine that having that opportunity...
Marc:Yeah, it was thrilling.
Guest 4:And he was wonderful, too.
Guest 4:He was a really nice guy.
Guest 4:Very, very helpful.
Guest 4:Did you find you learned things from him?
Guest 4:Yes.
Guest 4:Like what?
Guest 4:Well, especially since we weren't sitting down next to each other.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:It wasn't very detailed, hands-on things, but it was more just attitude.
Guest 4:And not just how to approach your art, but also...
Guest 4:How to approach your career and what's important.
Guest 4:And he would basically, he would just say, of course, you're going to do whatever you want.
Guest 4:But here's my feeling on the subject.
Guest 4:This is why I do what I do.
Guest 4:Well, what were some of the life changers?
Guest 4:It was mainly he just kept saying, always just make everything to entertain yourself.
Guest 4:Just please yourself.
Guest 4:Always think of yourself as having an audience of one.
Guest 4:And he said, because you never know if anybody, and it could be nobody, he says you never know who else might like it.
Guest 4:But at least if you appeal to yourself, then you'll know you'll like it.
Guest 4:And he says, and there's always a lot of people out there that are thinking like you.
Guest 4:He says, so don't jump through hoops and guess what other people like.
Guest 4:And don't look at the market and see what are people reading these days and what they like these days.
Guest 4:And I'm going to mimic it.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:Just be pure.
Guest 4:I mean, how is that a new bit of advice?
Guest 4:Be true to yourself.
Guest 4:But that's all it was.
Guest 4:But he routinely did it.
Guest 4:He was very consistent in that regard.
Marc:And also prolific in the sense that whatever was going through his mind.
Marc:I mean, I think that that's great advice in that level because when you are like him or you're like you and you know that –
Marc:there's a there's a certain vulnerability to what you're putting out there and there's a certain you know I mean you know crumb puts out some pretty like you know morally dubious and and misanthropic and Some stuff is very out there right that to indulge your brain in that way and not have any shame about it And also you know illustrate it it takes a certain amount of balls right and and and to not question that is is is no small feat right right did you have that experience any time I
Guest 4:Yes, and again, this is something that I would talk to him about.
Guest 4:There were certain strips I'd start to do, and I would get cold feet.
Guest 4:I would think this is a little too personal, and I'm afraid people are going to make fun of me if I do this.
Guest 4:And he said those are always the strips you have to do, and they are always the ones that will...
Guest 4:Those are the ones that you will always be the best known for.
Guest 4:Was he right?
Guest 4:Yeah, he says it's like jumping into a swimming pool.
Guest 4:It's going to be warm, might be freezing, you don't know, but you got to don't take baby steps, just jump right in.
Guest 4:And was he right?
Guest 4:Yes, yeah, he was 100% correct.
Guest 4:An interesting thing, too, about when at the time I was working with him in the 80s...
Guest 4:Career-wise, he was not doing well at all.
Guest 4:He had a fabulous first flush of fame, pardon that very illiterate sentence, back in the late 60s and early 70s.
Guest 4:With Zap and then... Yes, and he made a lot of money.
Guest 4:Then for too many reasons to go into, at least financially, his career really went way downhill.
Guest 4:So him and his wife were living a very bare-bones existence at the time I met them.
Guest 4:In San Francisco?
Guest 4:50 to 100 miles outside of san francisco place called winters really depressing place too just farming everybody was a farmer i don't know what he was doing there and uh yeah it was like in the central valley yeah hot yeah and dry and awful and pesticides everywhere and he people would offer him good money sometimes people would tell me tell robert i'll pay him 500 bucks if he'll do a drawing for our magazine yeah say no
Guest 4:And I'm like, it's not like some awful magazine.
Guest 4:It's just an alternative newspaper.
Guest 4:He's like, no.
Guest 4:He goes, I don't know them.
Guest 4:They're going to write about stuff I don't give a crap about.
Guest 4:No.
Guest 4:I'm like, couldn't you use the money?
Guest 4:He goes, yes.
Guest 4:But look at him now.
Guest 4:By staying so true to himself for so long, now he's making more money than ever.
Marc:Well, what's interesting that happened to him is he was sort of... Now he's been elevated by the literary world and the art world.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest 4:Which is like... And it was a movie that did propel him to this level, that documentary.
Marc:But I think that's why I liked your comics more than a lot of other ones, was because of that honesty and that there were certain things that happened in your comics...
Marc:that had to be real life.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And that the feelings of confusion, anger, malaise, sort of existential predicament, personal purpose, and then just insane drugs and sex and weird girls.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It just was so real, but there was something about the way that you drew them
Marc:That made them warm and relatable.
Marc:And that's a gift, my friend.
Marc:Oh, thank you very much, sir.
Marc:Now, did you find when you have fans of that, do you find that you have a lot of Buddy Bradleys who write to you?
Marc:Oh, yes.
Guest 4:Yes, yes.
Guest 4:Especially when you go overseas or go to another country, and it's very strange to see a long line of Buddy Bradleys that speak a different language.
Guest 4:Oh, really?
Guest 4:Yeah.
Guest 4:My hate had been translated into many other languages, and usually –
Guest 4:I blame it on the translators.
Guest 4:Usually the translation isn't great.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:But my Spanish translator, he was the only one that would write to me constantly asking me what every little thing meant.
Guest 4:You know, like asking me, who's Rush Limbaugh, if his name popped up.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:Something like that, which made me wonder, what were the translators from all these other countries doing?
Guest 4:And as a result, the Spanish version of hate has done fantastic.
Guest 4:It does better there generally than it does in the States.
Guest 4:But when I go over there, there's huge long lines of Spanish speaking or Catalan speaking Buddy Bradley.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:I guess as I'm talking to you and as I talk to Eric is that what I realize now is
Marc:is that, you know, this is really literature.
Marc:I mean, you know, outside of the fact that it's comic books and it's comic art and it's drawings, that the things that are addressed by someone like you and coming out of crumb are really, you know, just humanity and in a very deep and real way.
Guest 4:I agree.
Guest 4:And in fact, I would say it's better than literature because it has drawings.
Guest 4:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I was talking to him about that like that you that so much of the work is done for you and and that if a if a comic artist is good There's no distance between you and that world immediately and people in the past part one part of one of the many criticisms and claims or reasons why comics isn't art or could never be high art is
Guest 4:On both levels, they said it was a cheat to have combining the words and pictures in the same way that high art in the form of literature, it had to be all words.
Guest 4:As soon as you start putting pictures in it, then all of a sudden it's for kids.
Guest 4:And people would argue that it should be left up to the reader's imagination and the reader should interpret it the way they want.
Guest 4:And when you illustrate it, you're cutting into that.
Guest 4:Kind of like the way people don't... So many people who loved a book, they don't like the movie because the movie is that director's take on it, and they always pictured everything different in their own head.
Marc:Well, that's so snobby and fucking clicky.
Marc:Can't you take them both together and see them both as art?
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:Or just stay home and read the stupid book again and...
Marc:Yeah, but that's like that's the thing that really pisses me off about you know the separations made by intellectuals in that like they made these assumptions because of graphic depictions Alongside of words that like you know that that's a child's book as opposed to saying no It's a form unto itself right and it rises to the occasion Well, it's it's you can't knock it till you try it but trying to successfully combine wording pictures is is quite a hat trick You know especially doing a long comic strip
Guest 4:It's not one page.
Guest 4:Each panel is a separate drawing.
Guest 4:So each panel has to work on its own.
Guest 4:You have to have composition in that panel, and you have to combine the words and the pictures correctly.
Guest 4:Then all those panels have to work together to make a page.
Guest 4:Then all those pages have to work together to make a story.
Guest 4:So you're doing a lot of juggling.
Guest 4:But what I was going to say, though, about...
Guest 4:A problem, too, about people saying, well, when you're reading a book that's straight text, you can interpret it in your own way.
Guest 4:And the drawings in a comic will take away from that.
Guest 4:But that's not really true in the mere fact that so many people will interpret the same comic in countless different ways.
Guest 4:Right.
Marc:It's a relationship with it.
Guest 4:Yeah, and they're projecting.
Guest 4:They'll be projecting.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you see someone as your friend in a different way than you would see somebody in a book as your friend.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:Or it could be like you would say, obviously, I must relate to you because I related to Buddy Bradley.
Guest 4:Right.
Guest 4:That's what you'd say.
Guest 4:But then there are other people who would say, I haven't had any life experiences like you.
Guest 4:Or there are people who would say, I've known people like you and I hate people like you.
Guest 4:Yeah, right.
Guest 4:And therefore, I can't stand your comic.
Guest 4:Why would I want to read about someone like that?
Marc:I finally got that guy out of my life.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now you want me to live in that world?
Marc:Wallow in it.
Marc:Well, Pete Bagg, it was great talking to you.
Guest 4:Sure, thanks.
Marc:Now I'm going to go into the store and I'm going to go get all the hate annuals that I've missed.
Guest 4:Okay, wonderful.
Marc:My guest in, it's not in studio.
Marc:We're in the blacksmith warehouse.
Guest 1:Not like the men's warehouse.
Marc:No, definitely not like the men's warehouse.
Marc:It's cold and full of metal and machinery, heavy machinery.
Marc:I'm talking to a woman that operates some heavy machinery.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 1:Not a backhoe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, this is like I know.
Marc:Let me give a little backstory.
Marc:Lauren Smolsky is a sculptor, blacksmith artist who I've known for about 25 years.
Marc:Is that about right?
Marc:More, probably more.
Marc:Twenty six, twenty seven years.
Guest 2:Getting there, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest 2:Although you couldn't tell by looking.
Marc:No, of course not.
Marc:We both look at 35 at the oldest.
Marc:When I met her, I was in college in Boston University, and she was at MassArt, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was at the Ratskeller in Kenmore Square.
Marc:I think it might have been a Steve Albini show.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:You don't think so?
Guest 1:Well, it's entirely possible, and long live the rat.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that's way gone.
Guest 1:So sad.
Marc:It's so sad.
Marc:But there I was like in my sort of pseudo new wave kind of, I don't remember how I dressed, but I knew it was the opposite of you.
Marc:And I saw you like in the middle of the dance floor with this like screaming black mohawk.
Guest 1:Really?
Marc:Yes.
Guest 1:That might have been the hairstyle of the day.
Marc:It was a big one.
Marc:And I was like, I got to meet that girl.
Marc:And then I met you.
Guest 1:You thought that about me?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 1:Okay.
Marc:Why?
Guest 1:Because I thought that about you.
Guest 1:See, the way I remember it is I came to you.
Marc:That's probably true.
Guest 1:But no, really.
Guest 1:I mean, that's how I remember it.
Marc:I just remember it like we were probably drinking.
Marc:And yeah, okay, so maybe it was mutual.
Guest 1:OK.
Marc:And then we ended up like hanging out and like talking.
Marc:And see, like this is the problem is that a lot of times on these podcasts, you know, I have resentments to work through with whoever I'm talking with.
Marc:But I don't have any with you.
Guest 1:Wow.
Marc:But I think that you have sort of a short list.
Guest 1:Here's a or maybe a long list of things that I feel resentment.
Marc:Well, just some things we've got to clear up.
Guest 1:Oh, really?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I think that we've buried the hatchet for the most part.
Marc:But my recollection of things is not that good.
Marc:So we met in Boston.
Marc:We were drinking a lot.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:Right, of course.
Marc:And here's how I remember the first time that we... There are certain things that you did that changed my life forever.
Marc:All right.
Marc:No, it's not.
Marc:Don't worry.
Marc:I'm not going to get dicey.
Marc:So I remember going to your house for the first time because you represent... Stop the tape.
Yeah.
Marc:No, I'm not going to talk about anything that's going to get anybody into trouble because he just told me that you're engaged and I don't want to make any waves with 25-year-old stories about children.
Marc:So this is what I remember.
Marc:I remember being fascinated with you because you were an artist, because you had this attitude where you're like...
Marc:And you were just running around.
Marc:You were kicking walls down and things.
Marc:You wore boots.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you were, you know, you're pretty tough.
Marc:So we go to your house the first time.
Marc:And you're going to show me some of your art.
Marc:And this is what I remember.
Marc:I remember walking in.
Marc:You had all kinds of cool shit.
Marc:And then you had this large sculpture of an emaciated female figure with the vagina just filled with nails.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah.
Guest 1:Yeah, I remember that one.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:So I was like, wow.
Guest 1:So does my mother, my poor mother.
Marc:What have I gotten myself into?
Marc:What does this mean?
Marc:Is this hot or scary?
Guest 1:Yeah, you know, and I didn't even know what I was doing.
Marc:But you certainly expressed something.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest 1:I was a completely emotionally driven person.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, see, here's where the timeline gets a little screwy.
Marc:Like, okay, so we hung out in Boston for a while.
Marc:You were dating a guy that made large sculptures out of soft things.
Guest 1:Yeah, and meat and plaster and all sorts of things.
Marc:He made sculptures out of meat?
Guest 1:Yes.
Guest 1:He made a sculpture out of ham once.
Marc:How big was that?
Marc:How many hands?
Guest 1:It was a whole ham with a, you know, carefully prepared with the hatch marks, cloves, pineapple, and maraschino cherries with a life-size female leg of plaster attached to the end of the ham.
Marc:And which he served at a party at an opening as an installation piece.
Marc:So we hung out for a while and we had a fairly torrid, exciting, drunken time for a few months.
Guest 1:Oh, yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then and then I left.
Marc:I graduated college and we broke up or something and then we decided to get back together and you came to New Mexico.
Guest 1:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest 1:Yeah, probably.
Guest 1:I mean, I remember the Torrid, and I remember the apartment.
Marc:Yeah, the apartment in Brookline.
Guest 1:Yeah, and I just remember being really, really mad, you being really, really mad, and then you walking on stage, and boom, everything's okay.
Guest 1:And I don't know if I, in my...
Guest 1:you know emotional immaturity expected you to be like really fucked up on mad on your show yeah your show yeah you know i don't know but i was just like whoa how did he do that i'm with a psychopath he's a sociopath sociopath yeah that's more like it yeah yeah and then here's what i remember we took a trip to carlsbad caverns right yeah and the car was breaking down there was if that was my mom's station wagon though we were driving down my mom's station wagon and the car fucking broke down and then we got that weird
Guest 1:The Delta 88.
Marc:The big green Delta 88.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we got down to Carlsbad and we got a shitty hotel room and a bunch of beer and we fought.
Guest 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest 1:And I went to Pete the Chef's and had chicken fried steak for the first time.
Marc:So that was memorable.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah, it was totally.
Guest 1:I remember that little sandwich board sign with the hand-painted chef on the front.
Guest 1:And then we went to the bat cave and saw that.
Marc:Yeah, the mountains of batshit.
Marc:I remember the big attraction is not only the bats, but the fact that there's like a mountain of batshit thousands of years old.
Marc:So here's what happens then.
Marc:You go back to Boston.
Marc:You get a job at the Naked Eye.
Guest 1:Eventually, yeah.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:I was bartending there in the combat zone in Boston.
Marc:At a strip club?
Guest 1:Yes.
Marc:But you were not a stripper.
Marc:You were just there.
Guest 1:No, no, no.
Guest 1:No stripping for me.
Marc:But I remember seeing you at that time.
Marc:I remember going back to Boston, standing you up, you hating me, and then there was another... Well, you were moving out to the West Coast.
Marc:Okay.
Guest 1:To... To L.A.
Guest 1:You, like so many other people I know...
Guest 1:Came out to California and just lost their fucking mind.
Marc:So when I came back to visit you, I lost my mind.
Guest 1:Yeah, you had problems.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like what happened?
Guest 1:Well, you...
Marc:Was that, like, mean, crazy?
Guest 1:Yeah, you were... You had an exaggerated personality.
Guest 1:Well, I guess if you... The way I think about coke is that it sort of takes the interval of assholeness that a person has and it increases the interval.
Guest 1:And intensifies it.
Guest 1:And intensifies it.
Guest 1:So, yeah, that's... You were...
Guest 1:on a rampage yeah of cocaine cocaine and you were very excited about it you you felt very powerful at the time having met a lot of the people that you had met in California yeah you were just like you know intoxicated right with that whole world here's a couple things that you did that changed my life you know outside of anything we can't talk about first you introduced me to patchouli which I still wear yeah I noticed that
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 1:You're still wearing it.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:And you because you used to put it, you asked you to put like globs of patchouli on your letters sometimes.
Guest 1:Oh, I did.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah.
Guest 1:I love that smell.
Marc:Yeah, it's the best.
Marc:And that I have to thank you for.
Marc:You sent me several.
Marc:I had some sort of weird.
Marc:I thought you were a witch for a while.
Marc:Were you?
Guest 1:I was interested in that.
Guest 1:I was always seeking some sort of reason for things to be or some sort of maybe semblance of control over what was happening to me if I could will something to be.
Marc:Right.
Guest 1:Because I've, yeah, struggled with those feelings of powerlessness over the course of my life.
Marc:Did the witch thing work?
Marc:Because I remember you sent me like a bag, like a mojo bag.
Guest 1:Yeah, well, I mean, I certainly think that there's a lot to be...
Guest 1:learned about medicinal herbs and old sure knowledge and traditions i don't i don't discount any of that but do you remember sending me a bag yeah and it wasn't you know an evil bag no it was not an evil bag it was a good bag it was good yeah i kept it for years and i never opened it because i thought that would mean it would not work anymore
Guest 1:Yeah, or something would jump out.
Guest 1:Yeah, something happened.
Marc:Some weird genie.
Guest 5:You shouldn't have opened the bag.
Guest 1:Yeah, or you would find something just absolutely horrible.
Marc:Yeah, so that changed my life, the patchouli, and being with you changed my life.
Marc:And also, oh, that thing you said when you quit working at the Naked Eye because you weren't a stripper.
Marc:You were just a bartender.
Marc:Do you remember what you said?
Marc:You said, I got tired of men looking at me like I was food.
Guest 7:Yeah.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:And then you said something to me that I think I actually, you know, some version of it, the conversation made it into my HBO special about in 95 about people who are it was something about depression.
Marc:I have to look at the joke again about how people who get on medication who are really depressed.
Marc:And then it's sort of like flowers.
Marc:I can't remember what it was, but it came out of a conversation with you.
Marc:But I always like seeing you because for some reason, you know,
Marc:You're a powerful person in my life, Lorna Smolsky.
Marc:Now, let's go over the times where, all right, there was, okay, so you had the witch period.
Marc:We did the vagina dentata thing.
Marc:And then there was a period where I went over your house.
Marc:And there were literally, from my recollection, there were dangling strands of ceramic skulls that were almost like Tim Burton-ish type of skull heads.
Guest 1:Yeah, but just, you know, it was before, Tim, the nightmare before Christmas came out, which just destroyed my tiny skull business.
Yeah.
Marc:Did you have a tiny skull business?
Guest 1:Well, I was planning on it.
Guest 1:That's my ticket.
Guest 1:It looked like Jack, and it pissed me off.
Guest 1:I was like, I'm always missing the boat.
Marc:That was a dark time, though, because what was the incentive of the skulls?
Guest 1:Yes, it was a very dark time because it was at the beginning of that whole HIV scare where you're supposed to get tested.
Guest 1:You've got to wait for the test to come through.
Guest 1:Well, the test doesn't tell you what happened in the previous month.
Guest 1:If you were doing any kind of catting around, then you don't know whether you're going to live or die.
Guest 1:We were just at the beginning of that.
Guest 1:Now, does it even occur to people that they're going to die from this?
Guest 1:I don't know.
Guest 1:But I was thinking about it, and I was thinking about my...
Guest 1:illustrious past and I was kind of obsessing about it so I was making these little skull beads and envisioning it as like okay well there was that night I'll make one little bead for that guy what was his name I don't even know I'm like making a list of all these people and then going
Guest 7:Wow.
Guest 1:I'm fucked.
Guest 1:And so I made all these beads and I strung them together and I had this incredibly long strand of beads and it was just, you know, the necklace of death.
Marc:Right.
Guest 1:It was horrifying.
Guest 1:So I had to go get the test and it turns out I'm fine and that's a miracle.
Guest 1:But I thank God for that.
Marc:Well, that's interesting.
Marc:So you got the test, but out of the fear, you almost had a skull business.
Guest 1:Well, yeah.
Guest 1:I mean, I love those skulls.
Guest 1:I managed to sell one necklace of horror.
Guest 1:I don't know if they knew what they were buying.
Guest 1:But you've got to figure it's a really powerful talisman to have concentrated all this energy and worry into these beads, you know, and then have this vibrating object of anxiety.
Guest 1:And then somebody comes along and goes, wow, that would look really good in my collection of South American folk art.
Yeah.
Guest 1:Then they bring it into their home.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can't really tell them.
Marc:No, no.
Guest 1:No.
Marc:That's not the kind of thing that you sell with a little card that says, this came out of a very dark period of my life, and this represents an unknown man I fucked at some other point in time.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:Who might have killed me.
Guest 1:Exactly.
Marc:Enjoy your skull.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:But, you know, you got to wonder about that in some of the more powerful works of art that you look at, you know, when you don't know what you're looking at.
Marc:Or what fueled it and where it came from.
Guest 1:Exactly.
Marc:Well, I think that's an amazing part of the creative process because I think a lot of my jokes come out of complete fear and desperation as well.
Guest 7:Yeah.
Marc:I do think I did some jokes about AIDS, but they explained themselves.
Marc:There was no cryptic sort of like, you know, it wasn't pretty.
Guest 1:Yeah, well, no, I didn't.
Guest 1:Yeah, I didn't.
Guest 1:You know, I didn't even set out for it to be like...
Guest 1:I'm going to make art about my fear of AIDS.
Marc:No, no, of course not.
Marc:And then Tim Burton comes along and fucks up your whole big business idea.
Guest 1:What the heck?
Guest 1:But look at me now.
Marc:Yeah, we're in a steel warehouse with a lot of machinery.
Guest 1:Yeah, I'm 45 and I have the economic situation of a 22-year-old.
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest 1:It's awesome.
Marc:You are a professional artist.
Guest 1:I'm living moment to moment.
Marc:I'm just fucking happy you're doing it.
Guest 1:When I look back on my life, I really just see myself as a late bloomer.
Guest 1:You know, I think there's a certain amount of fear that you have, and you have to be ready to take the leap.
Marc:Of course.
Guest 1:I don't think I was emotionally ready to take the leap.
Guest 1:But I think that... Until, you know, now, this phase of my life.
Guest 1:I'm best prepared for it now.
Marc:Well, I think what I saw was that you were an artist that never stopped creating, never stopped generating stuff.
Marc:You were always doing shit in all different mediums.
Marc:You were always trying stuff.
Marc:And it seemed to me that the big transition to make was how do you move away from a bigger vision of legitimate art into something that you can actually make into a business?
Marc:which is still legitimate art.
Marc:But I mean, there's a difference between spending two years on a sculpture that you hope gets into a gallery and making art that is accessible that you can repeat because there's something about metal that can be repeated and does not deny the integrity of whatever you're making.
Marc:It still is what it is.
Marc:And I think that you were more hung up with the sort of like, I don't want to do something that everybody likes that I can make a lot of.
Guest 1:Again, completely emotionally driven.
Guest 1:All I cared about was making work.
Guest 1:And making work that meant something huge.
Guest 1:And I really felt like I had something to say.
Guest 1:And then I got out of school and I was like, hey, guess what?
Guest 1:Nobody cares.
Guest 1:You know, nobody gives...
Guest 1:damn what I do.
Guest 1:And really, when you look at the problems in the world, who the fuck am I anyway?
Guest 1:Right.
Guest 1:You know, it just seemed like ridiculous.
Guest 1:I'm important.
Guest 1:I can weld.
Guest 1:Yeah, I'm not important.
Guest 1:So, I guess, like, over time, I realized that, you know, you just have to rely on your own voice.
Guest 1:You just have to sort of give up the idea that you're so important that your work
Marc:Right.
Guest 1:It's timeless.
Guest 1:Speaks for itself.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:And turn it into more of a profession.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I think that over the time that you've done it, the amazing thing that I think, as somebody who has committed his life to whatever art that I do, is that you never stop working.
Marc:You always took chances.
Marc:You always expanded and tried new things.
Marc:And you've integrated all that stuff into what you do now.
Marc:I mean, what you're doing now is you work in this blacksmith shop and you make stuff that you make more than one of and make it available to people
Marc:That would like to have your work, which is a good thing.
Guest 1:Right.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:I do some I do some production stuff that's functional, but I also do more artistic higher end additions of functional items, say that that are pretty much.
Guest 1:They're along the same lines, but each are unique.
Marc:Can we describe some of them?
Guest 1:Like, I make really beautiful candle holders.
Marc:Big ones.
Marc:Like, is that one with the flowers there?
Marc:See, if I had a real great website, we'd have pictures up.
Guest 1:Well, it's on my website.
Marc:What is your website?
Guest 1:www.laurenosmalski.com That's L-A-U-R-E-N-O-S-M-O-L-S-K-I.
Marc:Laurenasmalski.com.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:So, yeah, I'm trying to do really beautiful, unusual, unique stuff that people can have for their homes that's just better than Pottery Barn.
Marc:Hell yeah.
Marc:And this woman, Ben Steele, my friends.
Guest 1:Right.
Guest 1:I make larger scale work that's really heavily textured steel.
Guest 1:Because I think that's something that's really unique about blacksmithing today.
Guest 1:Most people don't see it.
Guest 1:the malleability and the sort of clay-like qualities that metal can have when you heat it hot enough and you just stomp on it really hard, it bends, it flows.
Guest 1:So I think that's something that I try to really bring out in my work and take something that's industrial and hard-looking and sort of impart softness and life to it.
Marc:Have you ever made a horseshoe just for the fuck of it?
Guest 1:No, no, no.
Marc:That's not like a basic one-on-one thing.
Marc:It's like, now we're going to make a horseshoe.
Guest 1:Well, a farrier is a smith that works with the animals.
Guest 1:And you have to know about the orthopedic situations that you're addressing with the animals.
Guest 1:So there's a lot that goes along with that.
Guest 1:So you can't just slap on a piece of metal.
Guest 1:I mean, you can imagine...
Guest 1:If, you know, you walked up to somebody on the street and said, hey, would you make me a pair of high heels?
Guest 1:So, yeah, I don't do that.
Guest 1:But I have learned some really basic skills along the way.
Guest 1:And I teach blacksmithing now, too.
Guest 1:Really?
Guest 1:At a little art school.
Marc:Is there money in that?
Guest 1:Not a lot, no.
Guest 1:I mean, I'd like to do a lot more teaching because I really enjoy incorporating my waitressing skills and my artistic skills, which is how I see it.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:How do the waitressing skills come into teaching?
Guest 1:Well, it's working with people.
Marc:Right.
Guest 1:You know, and reading into...
Guest 1:people's world in in the blink of an eye like what's happening in that moment you know are you tricking me are you lying to me you know what are you being lazy are you being stupid what are you doing you must have been a hell of a waitress oh yeah 23 years
Guest 1:I learned a lot from that.
Guest 1:I mean, I learned so much.
Guest 1:I love people.
Guest 1:Really?
Guest 1:I mean, I really do.
Guest 1:I think it's so funny.
Guest 1:It's made me totally fearless.
Marc:Waitressing.
Guest 1:Absolutely.
Guest 1:I'm not afraid of anybody.
Guest 1:Honestly, I'm not.
Marc:Because you can see the angles are working.
Guest 1:Well, they need food and they need me to get the food.
Guest 1:You know, I mean, that's the lesson right there.
Guest 1:It's like, screw you.
Guest 1:I don't, you know, say whatever you want.
Guest 1:Impress your date.
Guest 7:Yeah.
Guest 1:You got to get through me.
Guest 1:Now pay your bill.
Guest 5:And give me a fucking tip.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah.
Guest 1:Well, and waitressing at a comedy club.
Guest 1:Delightful.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You were there at the improv briefly.
Guest 1:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I don't know how you ended up there.
Marc:That was one of those weird junctures where we crossed paths again.
Guest 1:Oh, I loved working at the improv.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 1:Oh, it was great.
Guest 1:I ended up being the head waitress.
Guest 1:I could kick everybody out.
Guest 1:I would do, you know, the whole room myself.
Guest 1:I'd be cracking up while I'd be working.
Guest 1:It would be wonderful.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Marc:And you didn't get jaded about it.
Guest 1:No.
Marc:And you had to deter comics from hitting on you all the time.
Guest 1:Of course.
Marc:It never stopped.
Guest 1:Oh, no.
Guest 1:And the things that would happen at the at the comedy clubs would just be hilarious.
Guest 1:You know, the people that want to get in there and sit in the front.
Guest 6:Yeah.
Guest 1:You know, you just pick them out like I got to get right up in the front.
Guest 6:Yeah.
Guest 1:Why?
Guest 6:You know, you can heckle.
Guest 6:Right.
Guest 1:Yeah.
Guest 1:And then some people you would, you know, just look at and go, OK, go ahead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you know what to take care of it.
Marc:Well, you're doing great work.
Guest 2:Thank you.
Marc:And please go to laurenosmalski.com.
Marc:L-A-U-R-E-N-O-S-M-O-L-S-K-I dot com.
Marc:Did I get it?
Yeah.
Marc:That's pretty good, right?
Guest 1:Thank you.
Marc:Do you feel content with what we did here?
Guest 1:Absolutely.
Marc:It was great talking to you and great seeing you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love you.
Guest 1:Thanks.
Guest 1:I love you, too.
Guest 1:Okay.
Guest 1:Long time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, you guys, I'm still in the parking lot of Totem Square waiting to go on, but I didn't want to break the illusion, but I will.
Marc:Thanks for listening.
Marc:Please give a round of applause to Pete Bagg, Eric Reynolds, and the wonderful and intense Lauren Esmalski.
Marc:Hope you enjoyed the show.
Marc:Remember, go to...
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:PunchlineMagazine.com for all your comedy needs of everything you need to know about comedy.
Marc:And please go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:We're going to be making that site bigger, expanding it.
Marc:We're going to be putting some video up, some new merch up.
Marc:You can get there and follow us on Twitter.
Marc:And please think about contributing in some way to the show.
Marc:We want to stay listener supported.
Marc:We need your contributions.
Marc:And don't forget JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:You can't get a discount, but you can get the coffee.
Marc:And all right.
Marc:So I guess that's about it.
Marc:I'll talk to you next time.
Thank you.