Episode 385 - Gillian Jacobs
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fuckstables what the fuckaholics what the fuck am i talking about i am mark maron this is wtf thank you for joining me been a very exciting week
Marc:My show premiered this week, and it was pretty wild.
Marc:I never thought I would ever see myself on television in that context, certainly not with my name on it.
Marc:I was very proud of the show.
Marc:They ran it a lot.
Marc:I Tevo'd it.
Marc:I actually was at HBO.
Marc:I was at Real Time doing Bill Maher's show when the first airing of my show happened, so I was sort of trying to follow what was going on.
Marc:coming back at me because, you know, that's how shallow I am.
Marc:I wanted to be engaged with the flowing in of tweets, both positive and negative, but mostly positive.
Marc:And I'm thrilled that people liked it.
Marc:I'm very happy that people related to the show.
Marc:And if you know me...
Marc:that you felt like it honored what I do.
Marc:I'm very proud of the show, and I'm excited that you're excited.
Marc:Didn't read too many reviews.
Marc:There were some good reviews.
Marc:That was exciting.
Marc:There were a couple of very thoughtful, okay reviews.
Marc:Real critic stuff.
Marc:And quite honestly, it's not that I'm so much detached, but I think there's a lot to learn from somebody who is thoughtful in their criticism, who's a real critic.
Marc:And it's fine with me.
Marc:You can always learn something from that.
Marc:uh that that stuff goes in i process it uh and i and i just try to figure out where they're coming from we're just you know you know 140 character attacks they annoy me but i think that was what the whole episode was about so i'm thrilled okay
Marc:I'm excited that the show has started.
Marc:I'm excited that everything's going on.
Marc:A lot of things that have happened are very excited about.
Marc:I just got back from Milwaukee.
Marc:I want to thank the people of Milwaukee from coming to the Pabst Theater.
Marc:What an amazing theater that is.
Marc:The green room downstairs, they had a record player.
Marc:They had vinyl.
Marc:They had speakers.
Marc:I was playing the band.
Marc:I was playing some Zeppelin.
Marc:I played some Stevie Wonder, waiting to go on stage.
Marc:They had someone making coffee.
Marc:Someone made me a mocha in the green room at the Pabst Theater.
Marc:It was, you know, I would go back there just for that on an off night.
Marc:When I wasn't even performing, I'd go spend time in the green room at the Pabst Theater.
Marc:But the crowd was amazing.
Marc:And that place is tremendous.
Marc:I don't know why or when it's going to stop that I feel like when I go to a town.
Marc:That I have to eat the indigenous bad food.
Marc:Is that what you call it?
Marc:The indigenous bad food?
Marc:Like there was like I had no choice.
Marc:I am trying to kill myself slowly with food.
Marc:And I brought this up.
Marc:I guess it'll stop now that I got a little downtime.
Marc:Not much.
Marc:I got to go on the book tour.
Marc:But I was in I was in Milwaukee a half an hour and I had to go shove bratwurst into my face with sauerkraut and onions.
Marc:It was awesome.
Marc:That's what I went on stage with a belly full of brats.
Marc:I imagine if I still drank, I'd knock back some Pabst, but maybe some other sort of more high-end beers.
Marc:It is kind of funny to me, though, that places that are known for shitty food that's really good, like cheese curds and bratwurst, that there is a level when you go there, there are people that live there.
Marc:It's like, you know, you don't have that.
Marc:You don't have to eat that stuff.
Marc:We have good food now.
Marc:We have a place or two places.
Marc:You know, we've got an Iron Chef here.
Marc:We've got a top chef here.
Marc:We've got a new restaurant.
Marc:You don't have to eat that stuff.
Marc:We want to be known for the high-end stuff.
Marc:But if you got to go get a brat, you got to get a brat.
Marc:And I did that.
Marc:Today on the show, Gillian Jacobs from Community Fame is here.
Marc:Lovely.
Marc:Made a very interesting choice in her life that I am still thinking about.
Marc:And she'll tell you about that.
Marc:We'll talk about it.
Marc:It was pretty startling to me.
Marc:So we'll talk about that with Gillian Jacobs and other things in just a minute.
Marc:But last week was profound.
Marc:I know I told you that I'd done Howard Stern.
Marc:I talked about that briefly.
Marc:But I think I neglected to say that I did Jimmy Fallon, I did the CBS Morning Show, and I did Terry Gross.
Marc:I did Fresh Air.
Marc:I did Fresh Air.
Marc:Now, you have to understand, for someone who has now become known for doing this, for speaking on a microphone, for talking to other individuals, for having intimate interviews, I did Opie and Anthony as well.
Marc:But like Opie and Anthony, I know those guys.
Marc:I hang out with those guys a lot.
Marc:So going into that, I was just excited that I was able to do it.
Marc:There was a little tension for a second, but we covered it.
Marc:We fixed it.
Marc:It was great to see those guys.
Marc:I had a great time with ONA.
Marc:I had a great time with Jimmy Fallon, but I know Jimmy Fallon.
Marc:I didn't know Howard Stern, never met Howard Stern, never met Terry Gross.
Marc:Well, you never meet Terry Gross.
Marc:I talked to her once before when my Jerusalem Syndrome book came out.
Marc:And for some reason, in my recollection, we talked about a blue comedy.
Marc:She wanted to talk about dirty comedy.
Marc:Wasn't necessary, I believe, was the topic.
Marc:I don't know how we got on that topic.
Marc:But the interesting thing for me at this point in my life, doing what I do, which is primarily this podcast and evolving on these mics, I was talking to really the best interviewers in the business.
Marc:I mean, people who set some standard.
Marc:Terry and Howard set a standard before anybody.
Marc:Well, there are other people before them, but as far as modern radio interviewers, they are the standard bearers, and they're very different.
Marc:And I was able to do them and ONA within a week's time.
Marc:So I never met Howard.
Marc:And as I said, that was very exciting.
Marc:And then Terry, I get on the phone with her.
Marc:She's in some sort of, I always picture it to be a book bunker somewhere.
Marc:You always do it over an ISDN line.
Marc:You always do it in a studio alone and she comes in through your headset.
Marc:That's usually the way it goes.
Marc:I rarely think
Marc:that she talks to people in person.
Marc:She's in some sort of cozy bunker in Philadelphia, in the Philadelphia area.
Marc:I have no idea what her life is.
Marc:And I was nervous to talk to her, too, because I don't know what... I just have to trust her.
Marc:You know, they both are very intimate interviewers, but...
Marc:You know, Howard's aggressive, and all of a sudden he's in.
Marc:You know, he goes boom, boom, takes a couple pops right out of the gate.
Marc:You're jealous.
Marc:You're angry.
Marc:What's that about?
Marc:You're an asshole, right?
Marc:Bang, boom.
Marc:I'm on the ropes already, but I'm not uncomfortable talking about that.
Marc:I don't mind having my boundaries busted open and let's see what's inside.
Marc:It's what I do.
Marc:I do it to myself.
Marc:but terry smooth man you know terry smooth you're just all of a sudden she talks in that way she talks and you're in and you're going and uh you know we talked a lot about uh talking to people and what we get out of it and then she's she's very intuitive it's very interesting i should listen to it i haven't but for some reason or another we got on the topic of porn because i wrote about it in my book and uh
Marc:And I'm talking about porn with Terry Gross, just like last time, talking about blue comedy.
Marc:It felt filthy.
Marc:But I'll tell you, man, there was a couple moments in the Terry Gross interview where I got her laughing.
Marc:She snorted.
Marc:She laughed, snorted, and she left it in.
Marc:And I respect her for that.
Marc:She didn't leave the porn discussion in on the main NPR show, but she did put it on the website, talking dirty, kinda, to Terry Gross.
Marc:I mean, that's an honor.
Marc:Isn't that an honor?
Marc:Highbrow and lowbrow, I'll go either way.
Marc:And then hanging out with ONA was great.
Marc:I got filthy over there.
Marc:Told my two hooker stories that are in the book.
Marc:And now I'm going to do Conan tomorrow.
Marc:And I'm supposed to do Leno on Thursday.
Marc:I've never done Jay Leno.
Marc:You have to understand something that...
Marc:about me is that I've never met that guy.
Marc:You hear me talk to a lot of people that are in show business that I've met once or twice or maybe never met at all.
Marc:I never met Jay Leno.
Marc:I remember seeing that guy when he was a comic on television.
Marc:I remember seeing him live.
Marc:But I'm excited to do Leno just because I want to sit there and look at his face.
Marc:I just want to be a few feet away from his face.
Marc:I want to look him right in the face.
Marc:Whatever people think of him, I'm still going to go look Jay Leno in the face.
Marc:That's what I'm going to do.
Marc:I'm going to look him right in the face.
Marc:Did I mention that?
Marc:I'm going to die of gift baskets.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:My manager got me a gift basket.
Marc:I appreciate it, but you're trying to fucking kill me?
Marc:I can't throw food away.
Marc:You give me a gift basket with every kind of cookie and brownie and fucking coffee cake in there, and I feel a pressure to eat it.
Marc:I took them all out.
Marc:Most people, I can't throw food away.
Marc:I think it's wasteful.
Marc:I'd rather dump it into my garbage mouth.
Marc:Don't throw food away.
Marc:Use your mouth as a garbage can.
Marc:So now I feel like I'm in some sort of race to eat the contents of this shame basket.
Marc:Man, I'm doing a book tour.
Marc:Let me see where I'm going.
Marc:Because those are tricky.
Marc:And I'd like you to come if you're in the area.
Marc:Get a book.
Marc:Get a signed.
Marc:Don't get a book.
Marc:Sit there in the bookstore with me or wherever the hell it's going to be.
Marc:Do that.
Marc:May 12th.
Marc:Holy shit, that's this Sunday.
Marc:May 12th, I'm going to be at Powell's Books.
Marc:in Portland, Oregon, doing the signing and reading thing.
Marc:May 15th, I will be at the Sabin Theater for a writer's block slash Skylight Books event where I'm going to read and Judd Apatow is going to moderate.
Marc:I don't know what that means when it's just the two of us.
Marc:So I guess Judd's going to interview me or hang out with me or talk to me.
Marc:It's very nice of him to do it.
Marc:May 17th, I'll be at the JCC in San Francisco for Sketch Fest.
Marc:That's an event.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:June 6th, I'm going to be at Stand Up Live in Phoenix, Arizona for one night.
Marc:I'm just waiting on my schedule.
Marc:I'm surprised.
Marc:The rest of the dates are in June.
Marc:The 11th, I'll be at Six and I in Washington, D.C.
Marc:And the 12th, I'll be at Barnes & Noble in Union Square in New York City.
Marc:On the 13th, I will be at Brian Park for the Summer Reading Series in New York City.
Marc:On the June 14th, I'll be at the Harvard Bookstore at the Brattle Theater for an event there.
Marc:And then later in June, I'm going to be at Helium up there in Buffalo.
Marc:I'll be at Zaney's in Nashville.
Marc:Main stage in August.
Marc:All right, whatever.
Marc:Go to the calendar on WTF Pod.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, let's talk to Communities Gillian Jacobs now.
Marc:Okay, I think I've done enough here.
Marc:And again, thank you for all the amazing feedback.
Marc:It was...
Marc:I don't even know what to say.
Marc:I'm handling it, and I'm very grateful and excited that you like the show, in all honesty.
Marc:There's great ones coming up.
Marc:The second episode, the Dead Possum episode, which some of you saw because they put that out there as a preview with Dennis Leary, and then Judd Hirsch is in the next one.
Marc:um with Jeff Garland Judd Hirsch plays my father my father's not happy about things but uh I didn't do anything maliciously I you know I I am we had the relationship we had I love the guy and I know some of this stuff is hard for him to take but but it's all it's I did it with love I did it with humor all right that's what I got to say let's talk to uh to Gillian Jacobs
Marc:Yeah, I'm glad.
Marc:There's nothing listeners like more than eating.
Marc:Yeah, and that, a little of that's good.
Marc:Eating's always... How about I take one more bite and then I'm done with it?
Marc:No, you can eat all you want.
Marc:I'll just sort of talk and I'll talk to you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:When was the last time I saw you?
Marc:I don't think we've ever met, but I remember doing the Meltdown show.
Guest:And I sat in the front row, yeah.
Marc:You're like just sitting there and I'm like, oh fuck, that girl's here from the show and she's all pretty with some slick looking dude and I gotta come up here and be like dirty old guy with problems and she's gonna sit there and judge me.
Marc:I was very concerned about that.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I don't know why.
Marc:I get funny like that.
Marc:Because you're like a TV star-ish person.
Marc:You have a presence.
Marc:You looked cleaner than the rest of the people you're surrounded by.
Marc:You seem to be in good shape.
Marc:The gentleman you were with looked coiffed.
Marc:And you're just sort of surrounded by bearded nerds and flannel shirts and, you know, pimply scarred people.
Marc:And you just kind of radiated.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, fuck, what am I going to how am I going to impress that girl?
Guest:I mean, I started following you on Twitter after that night, so I guess you did.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So now you get the full dumping effect of everything that comes out of me.
Marc:great yeah okay all right so i am i following you do i i don't even know if i'm following you is that i don't know is that insulting at this point that you know i don't care i guess to some people it is i think some people are very concerned with that but why don't you follow me yeah dane cook out of nowhere two days ago was like when are you gonna you know what's up why aren't you following me i'm like i don't know i barely i'm not concerned with everybody else i just want to see my feed yeah
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I follow people that I like to follow, but I don't understand people who follow thousands of people and then expect everyone to follow them back who they then follow.
Marc:And then how do you keep up with all that shit?
Marc:I mean, how do you keep, like, everything just gets lost.
Guest:But you can mute people.
Guest:You can follow them and then secretly mute them.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So it appears to them that you're following them, but their tweets no longer come up in your feed.
Marc:And that's different than blocking?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This is a secret muting button?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So you're a muter.
Guest:no i haven't done it but i know you can do it is it a secret switch is it only for only certain apps allow you to do it oh it's an app no no it's part of like i think echo phone allows you to do it oh so it's not part of the twitter universe it's part of some other thing yeah but to the person they'll say oh mark maron follows me but you will never see their tweets in your feed but i can block people doesn't that do the same thing
Guest:No, but if you block, but if you say someone's like, follow me, follow me, and you're just like, okay, fine, I'll follow you.
Guest:But you don't want to actually read their tweets.
Guest:You can mute them.
Guest:So it would appear to them that you're following them, but you'd never see their tweets.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then if you, depending on how well you know them, the next time you see them, they're being like, how come you never respond to my tweets?
Marc:And you're going to be like, oh.
Guest:Oh, I follow so many people now.
Marc:It goes right by.
Marc:There's nothing going on.
Guest:I'm so busy.
Marc:So that's a healthy brownie we got?
Guest:No, it's not healthy.
Guest:I mean, it's just like Zone.
Guest:I started eating Zone bars years ago, so I just occasionally buy them.
Marc:Oh, so that's like for the Zone diet thing?
Guest:I guess.
Guest:There was a mint chocolate one that I really liked for a while.
Marc:Do you eat regular cookies?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Ice cream?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Are you a crazy food person?
Guest:I'm getting more into food, but I've always had a sweets addiction problem.
Marc:But I mean crazy the other way.
Marc:Like, why did I eat that?
Marc:I better go throw up or anything like that?
Guest:I've never been bulimic.
Marc:I just want to get that out of the way.
Guest:No, I've never had an eating disorder.
Marc:No body dysmorphia?
Guest:I mean, I'm an actress, so I have mild body dysmorphia, but not severe.
Marc:Yeah, so when you look, you think what?
Guest:I'm overweight, yeah.
Guest:Really?
Marc:All the time?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Pressure?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Marc:I don't think you are.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I don't think you were fishing for that.
Marc:I kind of pushed you into that corner, the eating disorder corner, and now I just threw you a bone.
Guest:I'll take the compliment.
Okay.
Marc:So you say Gillian?
Guest:Yeah, my mom says Gillian, so I say Gillian.
Marc:So how many, so most people go Gillian and you're like, um, no.
Guest:I, you know, sometimes if I introduce myself as Gillian and they immediately say Gillian back, then I just don't.
Marc:Let him have it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But if somebody seems like they're trying to say Gillian, then I'll, you know, say yes.
Marc:That always amazes me about people that have names that are kind of tricky where they're just like, I'm not even going to fight the fight.
Guest:It's not worth it.
Guest:I remember I had a teacher in high school that for the entire year never once called me Gillian.
Guest:And when he would call me Gillian, the whole class would yell, it's Gillian.
Guest:And he never called me Gillian.
Marc:So you had an army of people.
Marc:You were that powerful.
Guest:No, I was not.
Guest:I don't know what it was about AP European history that got people rallied around me.
Marc:Well, they appreciated the sort of lineage of your name.
Guest:Or they disliked him enough that they wanted to be able to yell at him.
Marc:Was he an asshole?
Guest:He was kind of pompous, blowhard.
Marc:This was high school?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What class was that?
Guest:I think I said European history, but I think it was AP US history.
Marc:Thank God we corrected that because there are people out there.
Guest:Somebody on Twitter will correct me.
Marc:Did you wrap your brain around that shit?
Marc:I mean, were you a good student?
Marc:Were you smart?
Marc:Are you smart?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was a good student.
Guest:I'd say history and English were my strongest subjects.
Marc:No go math.
Guest:You know, I could have been better at math, but I kind of gave up, which really angered my mom.
Guest:But I, you know, I was in honors calculus, so I didn't.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:I got through that.
Marc:It's tricky for me because I sense that you're a well-grounded sort of person with boundaries who leads a pretty healthy life.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't even know how to talk to somebody that seems like everything's okay with you.
Guest:We can talk about you.
Marc:I certainly can do that.
Marc:When we were both on the same mortified sessions, were you okay with me being your co-star?
Guest:I enjoyed your segment.
Marc:I enjoyed yours, too.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:After I watched yours, I'm like, I think I divulged a little bit too much.
Guest:Well, maybe they just cut my stuff out in the editing room.
Guest:I could have told horrible things.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:I think...
Guest:I talked to Dave Nadelberg about it, and he said there was funnier things about my childhood that they cut out, but I can't remember.
Marc:God forbid they let you be funny, right?
Guest:Whatever they want.
Guest:Whatever they want.
Marc:Where was that shot?
Guest:I was shot at some loft downtown.
Marc:It wasn't your house?
Marc:See, you know what?
Marc:I judged you.
Marc:I was like, she's a loft person.
Guest:That is not my apartment.
Marc:I was like, I did not assume that.
Marc:She seemed a little more earthy than that.
Guest:No, that is a fake apartment.
Marc:I'm so fucking glad to hear that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I don't live there.
Marc:I just didn't see it.
Marc:It didn't make sense to me.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Do you live in a house?
Guest:I live in an apartment.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you own it?
Marc:It's a big place?
Guest:No, I don't own it.
Guest:I rent it.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:How many bedrooms?
Guest:It has two bedrooms and then two former maid's quarters, so two smaller rooms.
Marc:Fancy.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So it's an old place.
Guest:Yeah, so I have a thing for 20s buildings in LA.
Marc:Right?
Marc:The deco thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of, like, kind of haunted but sexy?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:A lot of pain, current and past.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You have sort of visions of sort of, what happened here?
Guest:How people, especially in my current building, how people used to live.
Marc:Yeah, and what did you find out?
Marc:Did you do any research?
Marc:Did you glean anything?
Marc:Do you know of any famous people that lived there or deaths that occurred?
Guest:I've not heard of any deaths that occurred there, but I think there used to be like a massive kitchen in the basement and yeah, maid's quarters in all the apartments.
Guest:And I was just, you know, you sort of think about like, God,
Guest:And for a two-bedroom apartment, two maids?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That seems pretty excessive to me.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:I mean, there's always been a sort of weird kind of Hollywood glamour-y.
Marc:I'm sort of obsessed with the deco thing, too, but I literally thought for years, just because of silent movies and stuff, that Hollywood had this weird haunted quality.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Under the surface of all these deco things, which just heartbreak and sadness, Day of the Locust.
Guest:And Satanism.
Guest:There's a lot of, like, Satanism, Aleister Crowley, sex magic.
Marc:Yeah, where's that?
Guest:A lot of it's in Pasadena.
Guest:That was a hub of it.
Marc:Oh, because of, well, there was a rocket scientist.
Guest:Yeah, the Jet Propulsion Lab.
Guest:Yeah, Jack Parsons and the...
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Look at you.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Doing the satanic research.
Marc:What do you know about Pasadena Satanists?
Guest:There are a lot of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of followers of Alistair Crawley that were involved in the jet propulsion lab and trying to like conjure the whore of Babylon in pentagrams and stuff like that.
Marc:And where do you stand on that stuff?
Guest:It seems harmless if you're not killing anybody.
Marc:Summoning Satan.
Guest:If you want to get down with some sex magic in the privacy of your own home, I'm not going to judge you.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:When did you start looking into that shit?
Guest:Well, when I moved to L.A., I started to get really into noir.
Guest:So I started reading a lot of, you know, those kind of books and a lot of and then and then nonfiction.
Guest:And I read that book about the guy who thinks his dad killed the Black Dahlia.
Guest:Have you read that one?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Steve Hodel is his name.
Marc:No, but I read the James Elroy piece, that book about who he thought that his mom might have been killed by the same person.
Guest:He then later endorsed Steve Hodel's book as saying, like, I think this guy killed the Black Dahlia and possibly my mother.
Marc:So it was his dad that you were.
Guest:The guy thinks his father, yeah, who was a physician, part of the secret abortionist ring in L.A., who was in with the cops and had been arrested for molesting his sister and had been on trial for that and apparently was tipped off by the police that he was the number one suspect for the Black Dahlia murder and then fled the country and lived in Asia for 20 years, maybe.
Guest:And then there were like a whole string of murders in Asia that he thinks his dad was responsible for.
Guest:And then later in life, moved to San Francisco and died there.
Marc:Not murdering.
Guest:Well, his second book was he thinks his dad was also the Zodiac killer, which is a less convincing case.
Guest:The Black Dahlia one was pretty convincing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He thinks his dad was also responsible for Jack the Ripper.
Marc:His dad was just a weird apparition.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Shapeshifting time traveler who just killed people in different eras.
Guest:It's appealing.
Marc:So you read the Elroy book, too?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're in it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I read a bunch of the Elroys.
Marc:Have you made any field trips to places?
Guest:I took a crime tour.
Guest:There's this tour company called Esoteric.
Guest:Have you heard of them?
Marc:Is this something you did when you first got here or recently?
Guest:I mean, I've only been here for four years, so maybe like two years ago I did it.
Guest:Yeah, and they have a Black Dahlia tour.
Guest:I took like a, I think it was called Blood and Dumplings, like Eastside Crime Tour, where we drove around.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you saw the places?
Guest:Yeah, you'd go to like, in this public park, a woman killed her child in the bathroom by bashing her head repeatedly against the sink or-
Marc:And what do people do on the bus?
Marc:Like, ooh.
Guest:Yeah, you get out, you take a picture.
Marc:Really, take a picture of a morbid, dead crime scene?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Did you take pictures?
Guest:I didn't take any pictures of that, no.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:So where does your interest stop with this stuff?
Marc:Have you been out to the Spahn Manson Ranch?
Guest:No, I haven't.
Marc:So the hippie shit doesn't do anything for you?
Guest:I like the hippie shit.
Guest:I like, I like, I also, you know, I like, I like, I like looking up like what used to be where in LA because I feel like it has such a terrible job at preservation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So like I used to live in West Hollywood, so I'd get really into like what used to be where and like Father Yod and the Source family and their restaurant that's now like Cabo Cantina.
Marc:I remember the Source restaurant.
Marc:When I moved here, the Source was still open.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Uh, and I didn't know any of that until somebody brought it up recently.
Marc:But when I first, the first time I lived in LA in 80, uh, when was that?
Marc:87, 88.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Uh, when I was at the comedy store, it was still open.
Marc:You could, I ate there.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Woody Allen has it in his movie.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And Annie Hall in the last scene.
Marc:But what were they, how were they bad?
Guest:They weren't bad.
Guest:They were more fun, but it was like a sex cult, you know, and they were hippies in LA.
Marc:What do you know about the gratitude restaurants?
Uh,
Marc:That's a new thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know the story.
Marc:No, I heard some shit, man.
Guest:Really?
Marc:I heard some sort of landmark forum offshoot business.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I should do some Googling on them.
Marc:When did this morbid fascination start with you?
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:There must have been a moment.
Guest:I read all of Sherlock Holmes as a kid, so I think I always liked, and then I got really into Agatha Christie and Poirot.
Guest:I read almost all of those.
Guest:And my mom and I used to watch the David Suchet, Poirot, BBC ones.
Guest:So I guess from there, I don't know, I just always liked crime novels.
Guest:I like the Elroy, I like the more lighthearted, like Williford, a bunch of idiots committing crimes.
Marc:But you like the hardcore shit too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You got blood and guts, tabloid stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:Pittsburgh.
Marc:Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Marc:What's there?
Marc:There's colleges?
Guest:A bunch of colleges.
Marc:A bunch of colleges.
Marc:Like that's the only thing.
Marc:That's why that place is different than other places.
Guest:Hospitals.
Guest:You can get a good heart transplant in Pittsburgh.
Marc:Was it Carnegie Mellon?
Guest:Yeah, my mom works at Carnegie Mellon.
Guest:Right.
Marc:How did I know that?
Marc:I'm so happy for myself.
Marc:I think I did a show in Pittsburgh and I was like, wow, this doesn't seem dark and weird like the rest of the state.
Marc:And I've shit on Pennsylvania before.
Marc:It's a lovely, it's huge.
Guest:It is.
Marc:When you drive cross country, you never think Pennsylvania's gonna end.
Guest:I know.
Marc:But like Philly, that seems to be coming together.
Marc:It's kind of cool and feels like a real city.
Marc:But Pittsburgh, I was sort of like, what's going on here?
Marc:Because it's not surrounded by, you know, it's all the colleges and the medical stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's what the whole economy is in a way, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think almost entirely at this point.
Guest:Some tech stuff.
Marc:Is your mom still there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She does alumni relations for them.
Marc:For Carnegie Mellon.
Marc:She's an alum.
Marc:So she's responsible for tracking people down.
Guest:No, she says she only does the events.
Guest:She organizes alumni events and manages alumni network.
Guest:She doesn't directly ask anyone for money.
Guest:She she likes to point that out.
Marc:Who are those people?
Marc:They should be recruited by the CIA.
Marc:They have tracked me in places where I was just staying for a week.
Marc:I would get a letter from my alumni.
Marc:Maybe you should chip in.
Marc:Here's your magazine.
Marc:I was very excited behind you on the ground there.
Marc:That's my alumni magazine.
Marc:I made the cover.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For some reason, to me, that was such a spectacular fuck you to anybody that might have judged me in college.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I know they're all going to get it and they never read it.
Marc:But there's my mug.
Marc:Yeah, guess what?
Marc:I'm doing okay, you idiots.
Marc:No one had faith.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:I would probably feel a real sense of pride.
Guest:We don't have a magazine.
Guest:We have like a newsletter for my college.
Marc:Where'd you go to college?
Guest:Juilliard.
Marc:Fancy.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:We're gonna get to that.
Marc:Okay, little Gillian.
Guest:Little Gillian.
Marc:In Pittsburgh.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:What was the situation?
Marc:You have brothers and sisters.
Guest:I'm an only child.
Marc:I kind of knew that because I watched Immortified.
Marc:Oh yeah, that's right.
Marc:I got a vague outline of what's going on.
Marc:You're an only child.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When your mom was alone.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Where's the old man?
Guest:The old man's in Chicago.
Marc:Oh, so you knew where he was.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You had a location.
Guest:I have a location.
Guest:I know where he lives.
Guest:I have an address.
Marc:When did they split up?
Guest:I was two, I think, when they got divorced.
Marc:So you don't remember that?
Guest:I don't remember them being married, no.
Marc:Just pictures that your mom goes, this is him.
Guest:Barely any of those.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I think just the wedding album.
Guest:I think those are the only pictures I've ever seen of my- Seriously?
Guest:Oh, like a few, a few.
Marc:But no, but I mean, like you grew up like, like you're sort of like, where's dad?
Guest:Oh, no, he was.
Guest:I mean, I knew him.
Marc:Oh, you did.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He wasn't like, wasn't like, get out of here, kid.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I know my father.
Guest:I know my father's family, but they got divorced when I was two.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember the married, but I know my dad.
Marc:So you always had a relationship with him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I always knew him.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I know some people don't, but I do know my father.
Marc:Good, good.
Guest:I have a number.
Marc:Really?
Marc:We could call him now if we had to.
Guest:Yeah, he'd answer.
Marc:But you always had a relationship throughout your whole childhood?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He got me on weekends and holidays.
Guest:That was the arrangement.
Marc:When he was still in Pittsburgh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He lived.
Guest:He when I was really little, he was living in Ohio.
Guest:He had an oil drilling company in Ohio.
Guest:You know, so much oil there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good for him.
Marc:Sounds like a smart speculator.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That went under shockingly.
Guest:And then he moved back to Pittsburgh.
Guest:And then when I was in high school, he moved to Chicago where he's from.
Marc:What was his business when he moved back to Pittsburgh?
Guest:Then he was an entrepreneur.
Guest:He used to be a lawyer, and he also was a CPA.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he had all things covered.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he didn't ever really want to be a lawyer.
Guest:My grandfather was a surgeon, and my dad was the oldest boy.
Guest:My dad's one of 13 kids.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Catholics?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Irish Catholics from Chicago.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So 13.
Marc:13.
Marc:So now you have probably 90 cousins.
Guest:Yeah, I have a lot of first cousins.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And no siblings.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:That's bizarre to me.
Marc:I don't know how.
Marc:And you're one.
Marc:I'm one.
Marc:And how about your mom?
Marc:Does she have...
Guest:She has two brothers and sisters, so I have three cousins on that side and 20-something cousins on the other side.
Marc:So the only child thing, that's freaky, really, to me.
Guest:You have siblings?
Marc:Yeah, I got a little brother.
Marc:But I remember meeting only children.
Guest:Yeah, we're strange.
Marc:Well, there's always that thing like, really?
Marc:There's an immediate sort of weird sympathy.
Marc:Right away, you're like,
Guest:Or distrust.
Marc:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:But they always seem a little different.
Marc:It's a different... I don't know if I know too many of them.
Guest:Really?
Marc:No, not that I know of.
Marc:It feels like a lot of pressure to me.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's a lot of attention, too.
Guest:It's a lot of focused attention.
Marc:But it's all on you.
Marc:With a couple, they're sort of like, well, if I lose that one...
Guest:That one goes under.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If something goes wrong, we still got the good one.
Guest:I'm the good one and the bad one.
Marc:Well, good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you seem to turn out okay.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the best compliment you can get as an only child is you don't seem like an only child.
Guest:That's like you're kind of waiting for that all the time.
Marc:So that translates to you're not weird.
Guest:Or you're not selfish.
Guest:That's the more you're not like so self-involved.
Guest:That's I feel like the main rap of an only child.
Marc:Huh, because I guess that would make sense because there's plenty of selfish people, myself included, who have siblings, but but it would be a different kind of selfishness.
Marc:I mean, you can't really be blamed for that.
Marc:What the fuck are you supposed to do?
Marc:You know, I mean, like if you're a little self-involved, you really didn't have much choice.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:I guess self-awareness.
Guest:You're supposed to cultivate that.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:Did you have that?
Guest:Yeah, I feel like I have a healthy degree of introspection.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Helped by therapy.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When did you start going to therapy?
Guest:Right when I graduated from college, I think.
Marc:Was that when the shit hit the fan?
Guest:Juilliard kicked up the shit.
Guest:Yeah, it stirred it up and then I started to try and deal with it.
Marc:Oh, that sounds good, but we're still in childhood.
Guest:Okay, let's get back to childhood.
Marc:Like I have a plan.
Marc:I don't have a plan.
Marc:We started out talking about killers and Satanism.
Marc:Did you ever read Crowley because you were fascinated?
Guest:I have not read Crowley, but I'll get to it.
Guest:It's probably not that interesting, I would imagine.
Marc:It's impossible to read.
Marc:It's literally like its own language, and you want it to mean something, but it's sort of like, there apparently is a whole system here that requires a lot of research, and I'm not going to do it.
Guest:No.
Marc:So your mom was a nice lady.
Guest:Yeah, my mom's a nice lady.
Marc:She wasn't like horrible?
Guest:She's not horrible, no, no.
Guest:I think she was overwhelmed by being a single mom working a full-time job, but she wasn't a horrible lady.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were they friends?
Guest:They were cordial, yeah.
Guest:I mean, they would be in the same room.
Guest:They would, you know, be around each other.
Marc:Did your dad remarry and stuff?
Guest:No, neither one of my parents have remarried.
Guest:And neither one of them had a relationship, really.
Guest:My dad started dating a woman when I was a senior in high school.
Guest:And that was the first time either one of my parents had a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Marc:And did you meet her?
Guest:I did meet her, yeah.
Marc:Was that okay?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, he's still friends with her, so I still know her.
Marc:Doesn't it strike you as weird that they didn't, you know?
Guest:Well, I guess, I don't know, you hit a certain point in life and maybe things don't have to like proceed in the normal way and you develop a sort of companionship with people that isn't like strictly romantic, but it fulfills something for both of you.
Marc:Did you just very eloquently describe a fuck buddy?
Guest:I don't think there's a lot of, I wouldn't describe that.
Guest:I don't think I, for my father in particular, I don't think I'd describe that.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I didn't mean to suggest anything, but it just seemed like you were being diplomatic.
Marc:You know, there are certain needs that people have that, you know, may still need to be met.
Guest:I was talking more about emotional needs.
Marc:Oh, what are those?
Marc:Yeah, come on, healthy person.
Marc:So when you were a kid and being the only child, were you one of those people that kind of like had imaginary friends and talked to yourself?
Guest:I talked to myself, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Do you still?
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Marc:Out loud?
Yeah.
Guest:No, probably just a running dialogue in my head.
Marc:What's what you usually say?
Marc:What's the inner you?
Guest:You piece of shit.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the one I was looking for.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're horrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You didn't get that right.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Why don't you eat some ice cream?
Guest:No, I don't have any issues with that.
Guest:I just eat the ice cream.
Marc:No, really?
Marc:There's no conflict inside.
Guest:I mean, I know that I have to not go crazy, but I don't.
Guest:I love sweets, so no.
Marc:So, okay, so you talked to yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you were like... When I was little, it was out loud, though.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And were you a freak to other kids?
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Marc:Like, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Guest:What were you... Well, I think that my interests were always very different than what other kids my age were into.
Guest:So I think that we didn't really have a lot to talk about.
Guest:And I think the more they didn't understand me, the louder I talked about what I was into.
Guest:So they just didn't know what to make of me.
Marc:Did you wear costumes and whatnot?
Guest:I didn't wear costumes at school, no.
Guest:But my mom would only let me buy clothes that she approved of.
Guest:So I wore a lot of sweater sets in high school because she liked sweater sets.
Marc:In high school still?
Marc:You couldn't fight that, didn't you?
Guest:No, I remember going to an outlet store and wanting to buy a skirt.
Guest:It was not a revealing skirt.
Guest:It was a floor-length skirt.
Guest:But my mom was like, I don't like it.
Guest:The material looks cheap, and she wouldn't let me buy it.
Marc:So you were stuck in sweater outfits?
Guest:I was stuck dressed like a middle-aged woman, yeah.
Marc:Was there any point where you loudly said, no?
Guest:I was really frustrated with it, but she was in control, so there was nothing really... I didn't have any money to buy my own skirt.
Marc:But you're a girl.
Marc:There were so many things you could do.
Marc:You could get drunk.
Marc:You could go out with the wrong guys.
Marc:You could go have angry sex at your mom.
Marc:All those things.
Guest:I didn't really do those, no.
Guest:I don't drink, so...
Marc:Never drank?
Guest:No.
Marc:Ever?
Guest:No.
Marc:Never had a sip of alcohol?
Guest:No.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Guess.
Marc:Because somebody was a drunk.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of drinking.
Marc:Who was that?
Guest:You know, I don't need to talk about that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:There's some drunks around.
Guest:There's some drunks around.
Marc:And you're like, that's no good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A plus and just stubbornness, like making a decision as a kid and then just being stubborn and sticking to it.
Marc:So these drunks that were around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because usually if somebody is around a drunk in the immediate growing up period, they tend to be a little controlly.
Guest:The kid?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You grow up to sort of like everything has to be.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I got a vice clamp.
Marc:Yeah, you do?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And when things get a little chaotic.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:What happens?
Guest:Plans that make a plan.
Guest:You got to stick to it.
Guest:No matter what.
Marc:What happens when those plans starts to go?
Guest:A lot of anxiety.
Guest:Maybe get a little snippy.
Guest:This can't happen.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, I'm working on that.
Guest:That's something I've been consciously working on for the last couple of years.
Guest:But very, very, yes.
Guest:Very controlled.
Marc:And your mom, was she like that?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you were her experiment.
Guest:Oh, totally.
Marc:You were the controlled person.
Marc:But like I have found in my experience with people like you...
Marc:That there has to be some moment where some devilish person just keeps poking at you until you're like, has that happened yet?
Guest:Somebody who's angered me to the point where I like.
Marc:When the control freak loses control.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's a pretty monumental moment.
Marc:Have you had that cathartic event in your life where you're like, where did that come from?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not really?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I don't think I've had it yet.
Guest:I'll see what I can do.
All right.
Guest:I'm ready.
Guest:I'm going to loosen up.
Guest:I'm ready.
Guest:Bring it on.
Marc:So I'm not going to do that.
Marc:I don't think I could figure it out in the time we have allotted to us.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you grow up with the pleasant but controlling mother who makes you dress strange.
Marc:And what are these interests that made you such a freak?
Guest:Um, let's see.
Guest:Early love of Shakespeare.
Guest:That was pretty intense.
Guest:Um, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How old?
Guest:I think from maybe like fifth grade.
Guest:Is that for real?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where'd you, where'd you figure that out?
Marc:Where, where were you introduced to Shakespeare that were a fifth grader would be like, this is sweet.
Guest:Well, my mom took me to a lot of plays as a kid.
Guest:So she'd take me to the museum.
Guest:She'd take me to dance, to classical music, to plays.
Guest:Really?
Guest:There's a lot of theater in Pittsburgh in addition to universities.
Marc:You lucked out, man.
Marc:This is not the standard single mom story necessarily.
Yeah.
Guest:No, no, she's a good mom.
Guest:Yeah, so I think, I don't know if it was that.
Guest:I do remember seeing the Kenneth Branagh Much Ado About Nothing as a kid, and I obsessed over that.
Guest:I wanted to be Emma Thompson.
Guest:And then I started performing in Shakespeare as a kid, so then I was in some Shakespeare.
Marc:In Shakespearean kid roles?
Yeah.
Guest:First Shakespearean kid roles.
Guest:And then I played like a page in As You Like It.
Guest:We had a song.
Guest:We had a few lines.
Guest:I was like a nameless fairy in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Guest:And then I graduated to speaking roles.
Guest:I played Titania when I was like 16.
Guest:And then I do like Shakespeare scene and monologue contests at this theater in Pittsburgh.
Marc:When you're in high school?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're really into it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you get it?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, as much as, yeah, sure.
Marc:I got to read it again.
Marc:I've been through this with other people.
Marc:I understand he's great and it was all amazing, but I just can't get through it.
Guest:None of them?
Guest:I mean, some of the, they're better, it's not, they're not all equal.
Marc:I have to try again.
Marc:I have a hard time reading plays in general.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I get lost.
Guest:Well, they're not meant to be read, so.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, and the language, like, I understand some of it's, you know, glorious and amazing, but I think I need to take a class again or something.
Guest:Or just see a really good production, because that, to me.
Marc:I saw some weird Shakespeare productions.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I saw some tormented, like, I was really into William Hurt at some point, who went to your school.
Yeah.
Marc:and uh he did uh i think richard one of them uh uh maybe richard ii or something yes who cries a lot and is in jail for a lot of it yeah and like i went to see hurt do it and hurt like is his own thing yes and it was like it was just three hours of like i can't i don't understand but that's not one of the greats i wouldn't say richard ii is like no one of my favorites which one was the one with the limp and third that's the third
Marc:Maybe it was that one.
Marc:Who did that?
Marc:Is that possible?
Guest:Yeah, it's totally possible.
Marc:I think I might be confusing things.
Guest:Richard II gets imprisoned and is crying.
Guest:And it's talking about the ants in his prison cell and imagining as if his prison was the entire world and repopulating the world.
Guest:Richard III is conniving and trying to kill people and become king.
Marc:Okay, no.
Marc:Here, 25 years ago, I walked out of an off-roadway performance with Richard II starring Noah as a figure than William Hurt.
Marc:So there you go.
Guest:The second, yeah.
Guest:Richard III is a more interesting play than the second.
Marc:Okay, because he's the one that... Yeah, he's evil.
Marc:I'm trying to remember what I saw.
Marc:Was it Al Pacino in a movie who decided...
Marc:Oh, it was Richard Dreyfuss in... Was it The Goodbye Girl, maybe?
Marc:Where he got cast as Richard III and he wanted to play him as this drooling, sort of crippled person to the point where it was so over the top that he got fired for wanting to do it that way.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So what were the other interests?
Marc:Shakespeare...
Guest:Shakespeare, Cole Porter, the music of Cole Porter.
Guest:That's sweet.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:What else did I really like?
Guest:Katharine Hepburn, like 40s screwball comedies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What else was I into?
Guest:No morbid stuff yet.
Guest:George Bernard Shaw.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I went to the Shaw Festival in Canada like five years in a row.
Guest:What did you see?
Oh.
Guest:A lot of obscure Shaw plays.
Marc:What was that one?
Marc:Major Barbara?
Guest:I've seen Major Barbara.
Marc:You like that one?
Guest:Yeah, I like that one.
Guest:I've seen The Devil's Disciple.
Guest:I've seen The Simpleton of the Unexpected Isle.
Guest:In Good King Charles' Golden Days.
Marc:Now, am I wrong?
Marc:I always get hung up with rural Pennsylvania.
Guest:Pittsburgh's not rural.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But for some reason, I want to get you involved with Amish people.
Guest:All right.
Guest:It's going to be a stretch, but maybe we can get there.
Marc:There's no Amish experience?
Guest:That's more on the eastern part of the state.
Marc:How about Mennonites?
Marc:Any Mennonites?
Guest:I've seen Mennonites on Greyhound buses.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So how about freaky boyfriends in seventh grade?
Marc:Anything?
Guest:No boyfriends in seventh grade.
Guest:Couldn't get a boy to kiss me in seventh grade.
Marc:Did you want one to?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I remember trying to start a game of spin the bottle and nobody going for it.
Guest:Why?
Marc:That's so crazy.
Marc:I mean, you were attractive.
Guest:No, I don't think I was.
Guest:You saw my Mortified episode.
Guest:I was not attractive.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:That's just not true.
Guest:Well, regardless of whether I was or I wasn't, nobody was interested in me.
Marc:People are going to get mad at me because they're like, you have a female guest.
Marc:You always talk about this shit.
Marc:Well, this is important.
Marc:This is part of growth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was everything at the time.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you were desperate.
Guest:Desperate.
Guest:Desperate.
Guest:I couldn't talk anyway.
Guest:I couldn't have paid someone to kiss me at 12 or 13, 14.
Marc:And then when did it happen?
Yeah.
Guest:I did a play with a boy who was a homeschooled boy who was the first boy who ever wanted to kiss me.
Guest:That was my first boyfriend.
Marc:Homeschooled?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's what you remember?
Guest:Very conservative family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like conservative, like off the grid.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was only allowed to come to rehearsals if he did his homework and he had his family was very suspicious of me and didn't like me.
Marc:Did you go to their house?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:What was that like?
Guest:I'm very uncomfortable for me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like you're like, who are these people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did they have animals and things?
Guest:I don't remember animals.
Guest:I remember a lot of sisters.
Guest:They have guns?
Guest:Maybe they hid the guns.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or I didn't know where to look for the guns.
Marc:They had sisters?
Marc:Did they talk?
Guest:They didn't like me.
Guest:I think their parents had probably told them that they were not happy about him dating me.
Marc:Because you represented what?
Guest:Probably too liberal.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so this kid, he's like in your clutches.
Marc:He wanted to kiss you, and you were like, well, this is what has been presented to you.
Guest:Well, he at first, when we first started dating, he said he was never going to kiss anyone until the minister said, and you may now kiss the bride.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I wore him down.
Guest:I finally talked someone into kissing me, and I think I was like 15.
Marc:How did you wear him down?
Guest:Just whatever awkward charms I had.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I don't remember the specifics.
Marc:No, were you saying that?
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Oh, I thought you were saying that to me now.
Guest:I'm like, I don't remember the exact- No, it's a long time.
Guest:Yeah, probably like, please.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's wrong with you?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Marc:Oh, what's wrong with you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was not very, um, passionate.
Marc:Oh, it was like, it was not a good one.
Guest:No, it was terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You knew that then?
Guest:I, having never kissed anyone, I knew that was bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This doesn't feel good.
Marc:This can't be, this can't be all of it.
Guest:Everybody's obsessed with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's as far as that one.
Guest:That was, yeah, that was a bust.
Marc:So when did you really start doing the acting like full on?
Guest:Uh, I started, I did my first play in third grade and pretty much since then I was pretty much always in a play from then until when I graduated high school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I did dinner theater.
Guest:I did.
Marc:Musicals.
Guest:Uh, until you really had to be able to sing.
Guest:So I was like a nameless orphan in Annie.
Guest:I was like a, I was an orphan in, um, Oliver and,
Marc:In city productions?
Guest:I did Summerstock in West Virginia.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:There was this company that did musicals in Pittsburgh that would always hire a lot of kids.
Guest:I did a couple plays there.
Guest:But then when you actually had to be able to really sing, then I stopped doing musicals.
Guest:But when you're a kid, that's basically what there is to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:It doesn't seem to be necessary to be able to sing in musicals.
Guest:But when you have a solo part and you're not in a chorus, then you actually have to be able to sing.
Marc:But can't you just do a little personality thing?
Marc:Isn't it just...
Guest:I got I remember I got like rejected and then I just stopped pursuing musicals.
Marc:Now, was your mom like on board with the acting thing?
Guest:Yeah, she was.
Guest:I mean, she's the one who signed me up for my first class, but I became instantly obsessed with it.
Guest:So she never really pushed me, but she'd like drive me the hour to my rehearsal and back.
Marc:And why do you think you got so obsessed with it?
Guest:Because I think that I was I think that I was good at it.
Guest:And then I also think that the kids there in the acting class were nicer to me than the kids in my my school.
Guest:So it was really about like social stuff for a long time, too, of just being around other people who are nicer to me that I had more in common with.
Marc:Well, it's weird about that, about sort of, you know, the stage, the theater kids.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Like, they're all sort of like, they don't quite fit in.
Guest:Yeah, so kids from around the city, and every Saturday we'd have acting class, and those were my only friends, really, so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's cute.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:All you sensitive, arty kids who were like, just so like, you know, like, let's just stay away from the jocks and the bullies and do this.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, I was trying to stay away from the jocks and the bullies.
Guest:I never went to a single high school sporting event.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:Yeah, you don't got to tell me, sister.
Marc:None of that stuff for me.
Marc:That's all fascism.
Marc:So that's good.
Marc:You were never a jockey person.
Guest:No.
Marc:Never hit any balls, threw any balls.
Marc:I'm not saying that in any sort of pun.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:My dad, for some reason, came to one of my elementary school gym classes, and he said that the teacher had set up a bunch of cardboard boxes for us to jump over like hurdles.
Guest:And he said I ran up to it, moved it to the side, moved it back, ran to the next one, moved it to the side.
Marc:That's how you handle an obstacle.
Guest:Right?
Marc:I'm not playing this dumb game.
Guest:So that was my interest in athletics was no.
Guest:No.
Marc:That's a good story.
Marc:All right, so you go to high school, you're a song and dance person, acting, the whole business, you're solid, and then you're like, okay, it's time, your mother's like, where are you going to apply for college?
Yeah.
Marc:I would like you to go to Carnegie Mellon to the place that will be free.
Marc:It's a good school, though.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:And a good acting program.
Guest:Yes, it's a terrific acting program.
Guest:That was my I mean, as a as a kid who's interested in acting in Pittsburgh, your goal is to go to Carnegie Mellon.
Guest:That's like the trajectory that everyone's trying to get on.
Marc:well it was actually like in my recollection it was like Yale Carnegie Mellon and Juilliard that was it those are the big three yeah it's a really good acting program BU had a pretty good one too yes they did yeah so all right so Carnegie Mellon but it's different it's a different all of them have sort of unique curriculums in how they you know sell themselves to young creative people who want to learn the art so what what happened so you why'd you decide on Juilliard was there fighting at home and
Guest:Well, I think my mom was more bummed that I didn't go to an academic school because I applied to acting programs and then just regular academic schools.
Marc:Where did you apply to academic schools?
Guest:Well, Northwestern, which is another good theater program.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Northwestern and then Harvard and where else did I apply to?
Marc:Where did you get in?
Guest:I got into Harvard and Northwestern.
Marc:Fancy pants.
Marc:Got into Harvard.
Guest:Got into Harvard.
Marc:And you go to Juilliard.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:My mom was crying about that.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You could have been writing television instead of scrambling to be on it.
Guest:Yeah, my mom was really bummed about that.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's a fucking hell of a decision to make.
Guest:But I figured that I could go, if it didn't work out at Juilliard, you can go, you know, you can reapply and get back into places.
Guest:But I thought Juilliard was like, that was my moment to go.
Marc:But Harvard had, they had the ART there, right?
Guest:But that's a grad program.
Guest:There's no undergrad theater major at Harvard, or there wasn't at Harvard.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:What was that conversation like with your mom?
Guest:I mean, a lot of crying and having people call me and telling me I was making a big mistake.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Who called you?
Guest:All of your cousins?
Guest:Well, one of my cousins had gone to my eldest cousin had gone to Harvard.
Guest:So she had my cousin call me and tell me I was making try to get her to tell me I was making a big mistake and other people.
Marc:Yeah, your dad.
Guest:No, my dad actually was very supportive because... He saw his moment.
Guest:Yeah, his dad had said to him, you can either become a lawyer or a doctor.
Guest:Those are your only two options.
Guest:And he said he never wanted to be a lawyer.
Guest:So I think that was his shining parenting moment was he was going to let me go to Juilliard and not pressure me into... Yeah, look who needs a friend now.
Marc:My daughter needs a... My dad!
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So did you use that against your mom?
Marc:Like, dad said...
Guest:I think that she realized that she wasn't going to win that battle, but it was pretty funny because she, for some reason, had decided in her mind that Juilliard had a curfew because Lake Erie College for Women in 1960-whatever, when she went there, had a finishing school, had a curfew.
Marc:An acting school in New York City.
Guest:She thought, had a curfew, and it wasn't until...
Guest:And my curfew was so early my entire high school years.
Guest:And I remember after I'd gotten into Juilliard, it was the summer before, I was like, I want to start staying out really late till like midnight.
Guest:Hell yeah.
Guest:And she was like, you're going to have to get used to coming in earlier than that because when you go to college, there's going to be a curfew.
Guest:And I just started laughing.
Guest:And she's like, what are you talking about?
Guest:I was like, mom, colleges don't have curfews.
Guest:And she was like, what?
Guest:What?
Guest:You're trying to tell me that you're going to be in New York City and no one's going to know where you are and you can go out and you can go anywhere and you don't have to tell anyone where you're going.
Guest:I was like, yep.
Guest:And thank God she'd already sent in the housing deposit or I think I may not have been allowed to go to Juilliard.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:She was freaked the fuck out.
Guest:And then I never went anywhere or did anything.
Guest:So she had nothing to worry about.
Marc:She trained you well.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:She frightened you.
Guest:She put the fear in so deep that I thoroughly internalized it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:That's where, yeah, that's where the therapy comes in.
Guest:Releasing the fear.
Marc:Release the fear.
Marc:I do that every day in the form of anger and sadness.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You just keep it all in?
Guest:I like to clamp down on it with that vice grip.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Control the fear.
Guest:Yeah, maybe I'll make a diamond someday if I...
Marc:Yeah, you're making one inside, a diamond or a tumor, however you want to look at it.
Marc:All right, so that's pretty profound to me, like the Harvard thing, to actually say that, yeah, I got into Harvard, and I'm not going to go to Harvard.
Guest:I don't know if it was a good decision.
Guest:It's just the one I made.
Marc:Now, OK, so your mom cried and there was there was sadness and there was pain.
Marc:What did she hope that you would do at Harvard?
Marc:She was just sort of hanging on to the idea that maybe this acting thing would sort of fade and you would go into something more.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, I wanted to be like a Supreme Court justice.
Guest:So she started like bringing that back up a lot.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were a fan of the Supreme Court?
Guest:Yeah, I used to listen to audio tapes.
Marc:Yeah, I heard that on the morning.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:What did you find fascinating about the law?
Guest:Well, I really liked listening to the ones where they made landmark decisions like Loving versus the state of Virginia about interracial marriage or things like that, more positive Supreme Court cases that I could feel good about the progress of civil rights and history.
Guest:Right.
Guest:uh so you were kind of civil rights justice aclu kind of yeah interests yeah so you were like you know fighting for the uh for the underdog and for the oppressed yeah yeah i remember we did like days of silence for gay rights at my high school and i participated in that and they tried to have like a dress code at my um high school and i started crying because it was unconstitutional and
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Did you do like a hunger strike or a sit down strike?
Guest:I like I like wrote a letter to the school board saying, you know, you can't do that.
Guest:And then they never really enforced it.
Guest:So it didn't really become an issue.
Marc:But I was like, this sort of informs your character, too.
Guest:Yeah, that's it.
Guest:That's the nice dovetail for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Finally, you get to really be proactive as a totally ineffective.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Comedic character.
Marc:Well, I mean, that might be the most honest thing.
Marc:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:Have you been involved in stuff as an adult that causes, or is that kind of faded?
Guest:I'm not very organized about things anymore.
Guest:I mean, I still have a lot of deep-held beliefs, but I should be more active.
Guest:Like everybody else, I'm lazy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But if somebody asked me to, I would show up.
Marc:For the thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You got a thing going?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you got that thing going?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it near me?
Marc:Yeah, I'll hold that sign.
Guest:I'll hold it.
Marc:Sure, as long as it's not too weird.
Guest:Or heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, as long as you sand down the wood.
Marc:All right, so, okay, so Pittsburgh, you leave the controlling mom, who's a good controlling mom.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Go to New York City.
Guest:Go to New York City.
Marc:Boom.
Guest:Bam.
Marc:What happens?
Guest:I don't go anywhere because the Juilliard, the dorm is right next to the school and the school's only one building.
Guest:So I would just go back and forth from the dorm to the school all day long and I didn't go anywhere.
Marc:Why?
Guest:I'm scared.
Guest:It was New York City.
Guest:Anything could happen to you in New York City.
Marc:Anything could happen to you anywhere.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:See, this is the liability of reading all that crime fiction.
Guest:But also, but Juilliard, you're in class from 9 in the morning till 11 at night every day.
Guest:What the fuck are you doing?
Guest:You're in acting classes, singing, voice, movement, mask work, a little stage combat.
Guest:Yeah, we took some stage combat.
Marc:Alexander, right.
Marc:I'm sort of obsessed with that.
Guest:You are?
Marc:I don't know anything about it, but every time I hear it, I'm like, that sounds interesting, and I don't know what it is.
Guest:Yeah, we had a lot of it at Juilliard.
Marc:That was their thing.
Marc:I remember there's a big article.
Marc:It's like they were the first school to really integrate it, right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Now, when you went to Juilliard, why'd you choose that school?
Marc:Who went there that you were like, no, this makes it good?
Guest:It was not a school that I was obsessed with as a kid.
Guest:I was way more focused on Carnegie Mellon.
Guest:And then somebody just said, my senior year, you should apply to Juilliard.
Right.
Guest:I don't think I really knew much about the school it wasn't like I was I I thought a lot more about Carnegie Mellon and then it just seemed like it was prestigious so when I when I got in it felt like I couldn't turn it down you know Juilliard yeah and like what their alumni is pretty big right yeah they've got good alums like Hurt went there I know that yes did Meryl Streep go there she did not she went to Yale
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's right, Yale.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I auditioned for Yale acting.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Stupid.
Marc:Stupid.
Guest:Do you remember what you did for the audition?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What was it?
Marc:Like, I was completely out of my mind.
Marc:And, you know, just like, I'd been undergrad for like five years.
Marc:At BU?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I was boozy.
Marc:I was like, fuck it, man.
Marc:And when I decided to audition at Yale, they wanted a headshot.
Marc:But I had no idea about acting business and what one needed to do.
Marc:So I went into a photo booth and I got the strip of pictures.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And I taped that onto a piece of paper.
Marc:Like I thought I was like, I'm gonna be the rebel, I'm gonna come around the side of this thing.
Marc:So that was my picture.
Marc:You know, I wrote some like an essay, some sort of like, yeah man, I'm like, you know, whatever.
Marc:So I write the essay, then I track down Derek Walcott, who I knew, he taught at my school, and I'd taken a playwriting thing with him.
Marc:And I'm like, will you just write me a letter for Yale and tell them that I should be there as an actor?
Marc:And I literally, it was at night, I went to Derek Walcott's house, and he stood in a bathroom, and he typed on a typewriter.
Guest:In his bathroom?
Marc:In his bathrobe.
Guest:Oh, I said in his bathroom.
Marc:No, no, no, I didn't have to do that.
Okay.
Marc:I wasn't his thing, believe me.
Marc:So he's standing there typing at a manual typewriter on top of his dresser and his bathrobe, this letter, and he hands it to me.
Marc:And he signs it.
Marc:He's like, all right, good luck.
Marc:Good luck.
Marc:And so I sent all that shit in.
Guest:Did you audition it?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I went and I did a really sort of like dirty Sam Shepard monologue that I chose.
Marc:And some weird, you know, they wanted a classic, which I'm sure they usually mean Shakespeare or Moliere or something.
Marc:I found some, I think it was from Aristophanes.
Marc:I went Greek.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:You know, and I just remember like waiting to go in there.
Marc:You know, I'd memorized my shit, but I had no craft.
Marc:I had no real experience acting.
Marc:And I just remember...
Marc:like there were other people waiting to audition and there was this one woman who was doing whatever the hell it is that she was doing to warm up but it was very physical and she was making it was almost like kabuki she was like you know and she was like there like making faces and moving and i'm like oh my god i am way out of my fucking league here so by the time i'd spent three minutes watching her i was defeated
Guest:Freaked out.
Guest:Yeah, freaked out.
Marc:And I walk into this room.
Marc:There are three people sitting there.
Marc:And I decided that for my audition of this shepherd piece, which was sort of a lecherous, sexy piece, I was going to basically jerk off with my belt.
Marc:So at some point, I undid my belt.
Marc:And I just started playing with the belt as I did this monologue.
Marc:And these people were just sort of like, what is happening?
Marc:And so I did that.
Marc:And I walked out of there.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, OK.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think they get me.
Marc:They had nothing.
Marc:That was what I did.
Marc:What did you do?
Guest:I did something for Midsummer Night's Dream, and then I did a monologue from a play by Carol Shields, who's primarily a novelist, and I can't even remember the name of the play.
Marc:But how did you prepare for that?
Guest:I had an acting teacher who I had for all of high school who teaches at Carnegie Mellon.
Guest:So I knew all the faculty and students at Carnegie Mellon, which is another reason I didn't want to go there.
Guest:Because you can't really reinvent yourself and they already know you from the time you were 15.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What's your mom's name?
Guest:Martina.
Marc:So like you're Martina's kid.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And every time I would sometimes go and visit like this is the kind of kid I was, you know, for like senior like skip day where all the seniors skip.
Guest:I told my mom it was a school holiday and I went to Carnegie Mellon and sat in on classes.
Guest:Really?
Guest:The only time I ever cut high school was to go to a museum.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What museum?
Guest:The Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh.
Marc:To go see what?
Guest:Well, they had their version of the biennial, which happens every four years because it's Pittsburgh, the Carnegie International.
Guest:My friends and I went to that.
Marc:So new modern stuff.
Guest:Yes, I went to see modern art.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What moved you?
Marc:I mean, what art, like, you know, when you go to, when you think about that.
Guest:I remember, do you remember the guy who, there was a big controversy because he was using elephant dung in his pieces and Bloomberg, or not, Giuliani pulled funding from the Brooklyn Museum.
Marc:Yeah, that was like the shit Madonna or something.
Guest:He had some pieces in there.
Marc:The African artist, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I remember that.
Guest:I remember that guy.
Guest:He had some work in- He had poop pieces?
Guest:He had poop pieces in there.
Marc:Yeah, and you were like, well, that's something.
Guest:I'm like, oh yeah, that was the guy that got the funding pulled.
Guest:I like that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That guy's a rebel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Making things out of poop.
Marc:How's this going for you, okay?
Guest:I like it.
Guest:It's good for me.
Guest:How's it for you?
Marc:I'm fine.
Marc:You're very charming, very sweet.
Marc:I'm still having that same feeling I had when I was performing in front of you.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, that I'm aware that I'm saying fuck.
Marc:I'm aware that I told you about jerking off my belt.
Marc:that didn't bother me no it bothers me i think you deserve better okay i just like you know there's part of me that's sort of like you know say some more of that shit in front of her you know come on let's see if you can shake her up somehow ridiculous okay so you prepare you do your pieces you get in you go to new york and you're like i can't go out into the city you don't drink yeah you're a nice girl
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What the, what, what?
Marc:I know.
Marc:Have you lived?
Marc:I mean, has anything happened?
Marc:I mean, do you talk about how old you are?
Marc:Is that a wrong thing to ask you?
Guest:No, I'm not.
Guest:I'm 30.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're, you're not, you're sort of just out of all that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:Young and still no drinky.
Marc:And you're in New York and in any devils.
Guest:I mean, I met some assholes.
Marc:Sure, okay.
Marc:Assholes, that's fine.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Assholes that you were in love with?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Good for you.
Guest:Yeah, come on.
Marc:Yeah, chaotic assholes, like, you know, drinkers?
Guest:Drinkers, just, you know, garden variety jerks, that sort of stuff.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You deserve better, goddammit.
Guest:I finally figured that out.
Marc:Oh, see a little therapy.
Guest:Love therapy.
Marc:All right, so at Juilliard, tell me about...
Marc:Because it sounds crazy.
Guest:It's a terrible experience.
Marc:But what were you really preparing for?
Marc:I mean, what was your actual dream?
Marc:To be a stage actress?
Guest:It was until I got to New York.
Guest:Because I think I had a very idealized vision of what New York theater was, never having really been to New York.
Guest:I'd only been, I think, maybe twice.
Marc:What did you think it was?
Guest:I thought it was the best theater you'd ever seen in your life all the time.
Marc:There's a lot of it.
Guest:But, you know, what I think I realized, the thing I realized was they you get free tickets at Juilliard.
Guest:But what I put together was that a lot of times those were for the bad productions that were not selling well.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So most of what I saw was really bad.
Guest:It took me a while to realize, like, oh, I'm seeing the failing plays.
Guest:But to me, I was like, oh, New York theater is terrible.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I realized how little you get paid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And as a kid, I'd seen a lot of regional theater actors who were, you know, doing plays in Pittsburgh and they always looked really sad about being in Pittsburgh.
Guest:So I knew I didn't want to do regional theater.
Marc:That was sort of like that was after it didn't work out elsewhere in a way.
Guest:That was the only job they could get or before they started to get better jobs.
Marc:And then after that, dinner theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I think that New York theater kind of killed my desire to be a theater actor.
Guest:I mean, I still did.
Guest:I did maybe like four or five plays after college, but I wasn't solely interested in doing theater.
Marc:It also seems like a very limited market.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And also, I think that I felt so criticized by the end of Juilliard that they made me feel like I didn't know how to act on stage anymore.
Guest:But because they don't really do any film or camera, you know,
Guest:TV or movie training that felt like an area where people hadn't told me I was terrible so if I just did some TV and movies I'd feel a little bit better about myself what do you mean they were hard on you oh my god yeah I was on probation I almost got kicked out for what not acting well really yeah how do they decide that they you know it's I mean I know I can decide it yeah
Marc:I decided every day.
Marc:I turn on the TV.
Marc:I'm deciding.
Guest:That's bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right before Christmas break of your sophomore year, they put up these envelopes on the bulletin board.
Guest:And you know that if you have your name on one of those envelopes, you're on probation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you go and all of your teachers sit in a circle.
Guest:You sit in a circle with your teachers and they go around by one by one and tell you how you're failing in their class.
Guest:And then you have basically your last semester of your sophomore year to turn it around or they'll kick you out at the end of your sophomore year.
Marc:So there's a lot of crying.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:And also...
Marc:It's a bunch of crying actors.
Guest:And if you get kicked out of Juilliard, none of your credits transfer.
Guest:So if you want to go- Because it's not a real place.
Guest:Yeah, because it's not a real school.
Guest:It's a trade school.
Guest:You would have to start over.
Marc:So you're thinking like, all right, Harvard.
Guest:But I'm going to be a freshman somewhere else, having already put in two years here, and then you have to apply.
Guest:So that's another year I would have lost.
Guest:So it was terrifying.
Guest:I did not tell my mom I was on probation.
Yeah.
Marc:That is crazy to me.
Marc:So this is in the middle of your sophomore year.
Guest:Yeah, right before Christmas break, yeah.
Marc:And so you were devastated.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And is this when the therapy started?
Guest:I think I was seeing some school therapist who was not very good.
Guest:So it was like in name only therapy.
Marc:What drove you in there?
Guest:Into therapy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Juilliard.
Guest:I mean, it was like my psyche was crumbling.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I mean, well, it was like, you know, when you're a kid, when you're a kid in plays, the measure of doing well is that the adults like you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so when all I want is to please the adults, all I want is for the teachers to like me.
Marc:Yeah, I'm a gold star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when they're telling me...
Guest:You're not doing well.
Guest:It was like every I didn't have any of that.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:You know, it's sort of like was the seed of whatever fuck you attitude I have was being put on probation and put through the ringer at Juilliard.
Guest:But previous to that, I had zero of that.
Guest:I just wanted them to like me.
Marc:And so you directed all yourself.
Guest:So, well, but they also are telling me you're not very good.
Marc:Right, but you had nowhere to go with that.
Marc:So if the grownups aren't accepting you and they don't think you're a gifted child, you're just sort of like, who am I?
Marc:Kind of like, what am I doing?
Marc:Who do I go to?
Guest:And I've given up like a normal college and an education.
Guest:So you feel like you've already painted yourself into a corner of like, now I've decided to be an actor for the rest of my life, you know, because I gave up getting an education.
Guest:What can I do?
Guest:I can't get any other kind of job now.
Marc:So you go into the therapist hyperventilating.
Marc:How bad was it?
Guest:I mean, it was bad.
Guest:I, you know, thank God they didn't kick me out.
Marc:Meltdown?
Guest:Yeah, but it's like that thing where they're like, they always in acting schools are like, this is a free place.
Guest:This is a safe place to fail.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Except it's not.
Marc:When you're really failing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They're just telling you that so you'll find your emotional center.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or you'll take risks in your acting.
Guest:But I mean, I guess I was really failing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you know what I mean.
Marc:I think they're trying to encourage creativity or openness.
Marc:So did you feel like that you weren't doing that?
Guest:No, I wasn't.
Guest:I mean, they weren't wrong in what they were saying that I definitely had like a very...
Guest:teacher's pet attitude towards acting where i wasn't making a lot of decisions or choices or i didn't have a lot of opinions about what i was doing i just wanted approval i just wanted to be waiting to be told what to do which was what it's like to be in a kid in a play where the director tells you you know it's a lot about like remembering you're blocking you know that's what you wanted that's what you were used to
Guest:Yeah, so they weren't wrong in that, and I definitely had to learn.
Guest:I remember not until your junior year do they ever give you costumes, so you're supposed to go out and find costumes, and I wasn't doing it and wasn't doing it because every play I'd ever been in, there was a costume designer, and they handed you a costume.
Guest:You didn't pick what you wore, and I just remember my teacher being like, you have to go out there and find your costume and make some decisions.
Marc:For a play?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was the play?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, it was this play from the 20s called Broadway.
Guest:It was like gangsters and chorus girls set during Prohibition and backstage theater.
Marc:And you weren't even going out into the city anyway.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I had to like go find a vintage clothing store downtown.
Guest:I didn't know where the hell I was, probably near Union Square or something.
Guest:Did you find it?
Guest:Yeah, I got like a little sailor shirt.
Guest:So I mean, they weren't wrong in that stuff, but the way that they did it and the consequences of getting kicked out were so extreme in my head that it paralyzed me more than it freed me up.
Marc:And how'd you break through that?
Marc:I mean, what happened when you returned your second semester sophomore year?
Guest:I guess I improved enough that they kept me.
Guest:And then I kind of did start to develop a bit more of like a fuck you once they didn't kick me out.
Guest:And I always knew that there was a trap at Juilliard of like the Juilliard voice that everybody thinks that you're going to.
Guest:So I was already very...
Guest:conscious of that and never really did my voice or speech homework which is maybe also i was on probation um because i knew that there were a lot of bad traps in juilliard acting that i really was afraid of falling into and it also seemed like a lot of times the people who did really well at juilliard then didn't really necessarily work after school with some exceptions but there are a lot of kids who were like the teacher's pet never some of them quit acting immediately you know they end up in some other facet of the theater maybe
Guest:Yeah, or like teaching or something else.
Marc:That wasn't you.
Guest:No.
Guest:So I was kind of wary of the school anyway.
Guest:Maybe they could sense that.
Marc:Was there a moment, though, where you felt at least that you took on a role and emotionally challenged yourself to a degree where you felt like you delivered the goods?
Yeah.
Guest:I played puck my senior year and I thought I was good in that.
Guest:But they gave me a lot of... I played a lot of mutes at Juilliard.
Guest:I played like old women.
Guest:I was the youngest in my class.
Guest:I would always be playing like the oldest part in the play.
Marc:And that was... Did you feel that that was devious in some way?
Guest:Well...
Guest:I'd say the difference between acting programs, I felt like Carnegie Mellon told people what they were good at, encouraged them at that and sent them into the world with a sense of like, this is who I am.
Guest:These are my strengths.
Guest:Juilliard, it was like, break you down, make you do things you're not good at, which I get.
Guest:But by the end, you're just kind of a confused puddle of I forgot.
Guest:I forget what I was good at, you know, when I walked through the door.
Guest:So I was very confused and...
Guest:And it's funny because I always kind of thought before Juilliard that I would play like a lot of ingenues like I would play like Juliet or I play and I've never played one of those parts.
Guest:I started playing like the like homeless runaway street prostitute parts.
Marc:You did that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was actually the first part I played at Juilliard was like a street prostitute junkie.
Guest:And then I ended up playing a bunch of those after college.
Marc:So you did well with that?
Guest:That I did well at.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And it's, I mean, couldn't be further from me, but for whatever reason.
Marc:And that's interesting.
Marc:So did you inhabit that or did you act it?
Marc:How do you approach this stuff?
Guest:Sometimes it's very...
Guest:It's almost like, do I look like I'm drunk?
Guest:I've never been drunk.
Guest:So tell me if this looks, you know, like still to this day.
Guest:It's like I remember I read some acting book where the woman described step by step what it was like to do heroin because I was playing a character who was like was doing heroin.
Guest:So I would be like reading these chapters in this book and then like trying to just go step by step through like first I'm going to feel warmth.
Guest:You know, really?
Guest:All my limbs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I mean, I didn't know what it what it actually felt like.
Marc:Thank God there was a how to.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Thank God that one acting teacher had a heroin problem at sea.
Marc:So that wasn't really she wasn't writing it as an instructional thing.
Marc:She was just it was part of her life.
Guest:It was a part of her life.
Guest:And I think she was like, this will be helpful to you actors who have to play like your high heroin.
Marc:Did you get it?
Guest:I mean, that was one of, maybe the second movie I ever did was, yeah.
Marc:And you nodded out?
Guest:Nodded out, and yeah.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've snorted a lot of fake Coke.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:Did you read about what Coke did, too?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, or ask people questions.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you sat there like, so, okay, you're on it.
Marc:Were you sitting with people who were doing blow?
Guest:No, no, I've never seen people, I've never been around people actually doing.
Guest:What are you, a nun?
Guest:I guess.
Marc:You've never been around people doing drugs?
Guest:Not that I was aware of, consciously aware of.
Guest:I mean, I've been around people smoking pot, but I've never seen anyone.
Marc:Do blow?
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:I guess it was a little, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You gotta be running with a certain crowd for that.
Guest:Yeah, they weren't at Barnes & Noble's.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Barnes & Noble where I was hanging out at Julia.
Marc:It's sort of fascinating to me.
Marc:I mean, like, are you a religious person?
Guest:No.
Marc:You're just a control freak?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Just a clamped down control freak.
Yeah.
Marc:I would have liked to have seen you play the junkie hooker.
Guest:Yeah, there's several films you can read on Netflix.
Marc:Oh, yeah, which ones?
Guest:I did this movie called Gardens of the Night where I played a junkie street prostitute.
Guest:This movie Blackbird, I think, is on Netflix where I played a runaway stripper prostitute junkie who got hepatitis and died.
Marc:Wow, you had to act hepatitis?
Guest:Yeah, I got jaundiced.
Guest:I got painted yellow.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:All right, so how'd you get out here?
Guest:Well, I started coming out here for pilot season to audition.
Marc:During Juilliard?
Guest:After Juilliard.
Marc:Well, you're back in Pennsylvania.
Guest:No, I lived in New York after college.
Marc:You stayed there, okay.
Marc:Did you start going out then?
Guest:Going out for parts?
Marc:No, just going out into the city.
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:I mean, a little bit, but not really, no.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No.
Marc:Where'd you live?
Guest:I lived in Inwood, 207th Street in Broadway.
Marc:Uptown?
Guest:All the way uptown.
Guest:Yeah, that's nice.
Sure.
Marc:Isn't there an area past Inwood that's nice up by Grant's tomb and shit?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I can't remember the name.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:My friend was murdered up there, so it was not very... You had a friend who was murdered?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She was a class below me at Juilliard.
Guest:Was this the one in the park?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I remember that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:She was your friend?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And they were looking for her?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They found her though, right?
Guest:Yeah, they found her body, yeah.
Marc:Oh my God, like how close were you with that person?
Guest:Well, Julie Arger assigned a buddy, which is a kid in a class below you to mentor, and she was my buddy.
Marc:Oh my God, so you were part of that whole, like they were, you.
Guest:Organizing, yeah, I was manning the phones, and I remember, so the kids from her class and other classes were searching Inwood Park, and I was answering phones in the office, and this reporter called and said,
Guest:They found her body.
Guest:It's dead.
Guest:She's over.
Guest:They found her naked at the bottom of a well.
Guest:Do you have any comment?
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:That was how I found out that they had found her body.
Guest:She was dead.
Guest:What was her name?
Guest:Sarah Fox.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:What year was that?
Guest:That was 2004.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So that's horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the guy was never arrested.
Guest:I mean, they know who did it, and then he fled the country.
Marc:That's so scary and horrible.
Guest:Yeah, it was terrible.
Guest:I didn't really want to live in Inwood after that.
Guest:So I guess it shouldn't.
Guest:I mean, people are murdered everywhere, but that's what I associate Inwood.
Marc:But it's your friend.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And were you sort of close enough to her to where you're like, why aren't you answering your phone?
Guest:No, I wasn't that close with her, and she'd also, like, taken a year off of Juilliard, so she wasn't there right then, but she was just one of those, like, magical people, you know, that everybody loved, and everybody had a story about some time she was kind to them or said something or gave them a card out of the blue, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And her boyfriend was, like, two classes above me, and everybody loved him as well, and so it was just... It was horrible.
Guest:It was really horrible.
Guest:So many terrible things happened while I was at Juilliard, like...
Guest:she was murdered um another classmate a year above me od'd uh somebody's um in my class mothers died of cancer another classmate's sister was murdered by her boyfriend like just so many terrible things happened while i was there that it was like wow it was yeah there was a lot of tragedy going on there but that was that's what i associate in wood with right so how long did you live up there
Guest:I lived up there for maybe two years, something like that.
Marc:So you're flying back here to do pilots.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unsuccessfully.
Guest:Well, I did a couple of pilots.
Guest:Like I had some guest stars and pilots or I was in a pilot that I was recast from when they went to series or things that didn't get picked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What made you decide to move here?
Guest:I got community, that's what I moved here for.
Marc:So that's only four years?
Marc:Oh, so that's why you've only been here four years.
Marc:This is all pretty fresh stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And community is a beautiful show.
Marc:It's very funny.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And I've talked to Dan.
Marc:I know Dan.
Marc:I know Dan's gone.
Marc:Where's the show now?
Guest:The show right now, as we're recording this, is I don't know.
Guest:I mean, we're waiting to hear if we're going to come back or not.
Guest:And we probably won't know until May, I would think.
Marc:Now, you guys have gotten pretty tight, but I've had Dan on.
Marc:I've talked to Dan.
Marc:Dan's, you know, sort of Dan.
Marc:He's a possessed genius.
Marc:What was that like, that transition out of that transition?
Guest:Out of Dan?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Strange.
Guest:I mean, you know, we don't get any say in anything that happens as actors.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you just sort of have to try and continue to make the best show that you can.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, I mean, I love Dan.
Guest:I think that I don't, you know, Brett is the best part I've ever had in anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:I mean, I know that the show is incredibly chaotic and, you know, scripts relate and starting Monday with one scene and, you know.
Guest:With Dan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's not, you know, that's not the way to run a TV show.
Guest:So and he knows that.
Guest:And but that's what it was.
Guest:And we were we all loved the show so much that you'd sort of just roll with whatever it was.
Marc:But in terms of rolling with that or waiting or all that chaos, I mean, when you finally got delivered the shit, it was good shit, right?
Guest:It was good shit, yeah.
Guest:And sometimes even you didn't know what you were shooting, but then when they edited it together, you'd be like, wow, we made that?
Guest:That was awesome.
Guest:So, I mean, you can't really complain with a product, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's a show that I would, you know, would have watched if I wasn't on it, and I think that's, like, the most you can hope for.
Marc:Well, the times I've watched it, there's sort of just the orchestration, even the...
Marc:Like he was able to sort of transcend not only visually, but in terms of the language and the pace of things, you know, and where he would go, he sort of transcended television in some weird way.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Like it was also orchestrated to the point where you're like, the pace of it was daunting, you know, visually and just it was something else.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And, you know, I think that every time I sign because, you know, before you go in for your for your test for a TV show, you have to sign that six year contract.
Guest:So as an actor, it's like, all right, now it's all in their hands, whether I get the job or I don't get the job, the terms of it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:And.
Guest:They own you.
Guest:Yeah, every time before that I tested for a show, I had this real sense of dread about it.
Guest:And this was the first time when I tested for Community that I had absolutely no qualms about it, and I just wanted the job.
Guest:So I think from the get-go, I just had a sense that it was something better than everything else that I'd auditioned for before.
Marc:Well, I hope it comes back.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Maybe by the time this goes out, it'll all be back.
Guest:That would be lovely.
Marc:So what do you do in the meantime?
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:I've done a couple movies.
Marc:Good ones?
Marc:Were you a junkie stripper?
Guest:I'm trying to put those days behind me.
Guest:It's hard, though.
Guest:It's hard.
Guest:The Lucite heels keep calling me back.
Marc:What were the roles?
Guest:That I've done lately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did this movie called Walk of Shame with Elizabeth Banks.
Marc:Steve Brill.
Guest:Brill.
Guest:Brill.
Guest:Me and Brill.
Marc:Maybe Brill and I, he was my writing partner in college.
Guest:For real?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We didn't talk for years.
Marc:In Derek Walcott's class, we wrote a play together, we acted in it, we were best friends.
Marc:He was the first guy I did comedy with.
Marc:We were in a team in college.
Marc:And there was tension between us for years and years and just recently.
Marc:he kind of got back in touch with me.
Marc:And he was telling me about this.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he wants me to... I think I have to get back to him.
Marc:He wanted me to go look at the movie.
Marc:All right, well... We sort of reconnected.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Did you have a good time working with her?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I mean, it could not have been more different from...
Guest:Community or all the other indie movies I've done, we would get ahead.
Guest:We'd finish a day's work by lunch.
Guest:I was like, what is this?
Guest:What is this normal work environment?
Guest:Everyone's very pleasant.
Guest:Everyone's happy to be there.
Guest:Everyone's just doing their job and very professional.
Marc:And you got, like, what, second lead?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I'm, like, James Marsden, I'd say, is the second lead.
Guest:Actress Sarah Wright and I play Elizabeth's best friends who are looking for her as she's wandering around L.A.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he told me about it.
Marc:Sort of like an after hours in L.A.
Marc:with a woman.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it was funny?
Guest:Yeah, it was funny.
Guest:And it was fun.
Guest:And it's, like, you know, it's fun to be on a normal set sometimes.
Marc:Yeah, I bet.
Marc:And a movie set.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's a different thing.
Marc:It's a different animal completely.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And what was the other role?
Guest:Let's see, I did a web series called Tiny Commando that Ed Helms produced and is acting in, and it's me and Zach Levi and a bunch of funny people.
Marc:You're not nervous, you feel good.
Guest:I mean, I have a hard time not working, so any minute that I'm not working, I'm not happy, but I'm trying to be more okay with that.
Marc:The therapy.
Guest:Yeah, the therapy helps.
Marc:Turn down the panic.
Guest:Yeah, or just mute it a little bit or pretend like it's not happening.
Guest:That's as close as I can get right now.
Marc:I have a feeling you're going to do fine.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And I appreciate you coming by.
Guest:Oh, my pleasure.
Marc:Do you feel like we've covered what we need to cover?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, sure.
Marc:Let me look at my little piece of paper.
Marc:Oh, Pennsylvania.
Marc:Acting.
Marc:It's all I wrote.
Marc:All I wrote on here is I wrote only child.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Dad.
Marc:Pennsylvania.
Marc:Interests.
Guest:Yeah, we covered interests, right?
Guest:Murder.
Guest:This is my notes.
Marc:And I usually don't do this much work.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I just wanted... Thank you for the prep.
Marc:Thanks, Gillian.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:All right, that's our show.
Marc:I love you all.
Marc:I do, and I love that talk.
Marc:I mean, I like, she was great, very charming, bright, but I mean, really, Juilliard over Harvard, really?
Marc:I'm not criticizing, but I'm just, whatever.
Marc:All right, what do I know?
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Leave a comment if you cannot be a douchebag.
Marc:Get some justcoffee.coop.
Marc:They keep sending me coffee.
Marc:I got more coffee.
Marc:All right, coffee and cookies.
Marc:That's what I'm dealing with.
Marc:Kicking a few shekels.
Marc:If you want the first 100 on DVD, the first 100 episodes on MP3 are also available there.
Marc:Watch Marin on IFC Fridays, 10 p.m., but it looks like they're airing it a lot.
Marc:Second episode stars Dennis Leary and me and the introduction of the assistant character.
Marc:Josh Brenner.
Marc:Buy my book in any form you want.
Marc:And again, thank you for supporting my ventures, my efforts, my creativity, my dream.
Marc:Boomer lives!
you