Episode 374 - James Franco, Harmony Korine, Nate Bargatze, Peter Sagal
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF.
Guest:What the fuck?
Marc:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fucking Austinites?
Guest:It's live WTF at South by Southwest.
Guest:Austin, Texas.
Guest:Thank you for coming.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:We're back.
Marc:Back at the hipster Alamo.
Marc:Protecting ourselves from the rest of Texas.
Marc:Nice to see you.
Marc:Some of you are here for the pre-show.
Marc:Boy, that was fucking good, wasn't it?
Marc:Goddamn, man.
Marc:I did some shit I have never done before, people in the back who missed it.
Marc:Um...
Marc:Well, look, we've got a really packed show.
Marc:It's a great show.
Marc:I'm nervous.
Marc:That's what kind of show I'm dealing with right now.
Marc:And I just want you to keep this between us.
Marc:Don't bring it up with the guests, but this is fucked up, man.
Marc:This is going to be serious.
Marc:And I'm trying to be in the right state of mind.
Marc:Many of you who know me realize that there's a lot on the line for me right now.
Marc:I'm here promoting a television show.
Marc:And...
Marc:And I'm completely okay with it.
Marc:I'm calm about what's going on.
Marc:I think that I'm prepared emotionally for what I'm dealing with until some fucking idiot...
Marc:This happened, it was so clear.
Marc:I ran into a friend of mine, Pat Healy, he's an actor, right?
Marc:And some dude, yeah, he's great.
Marc:And he's talking to some dude, I don't know what kind of interviewer, but who fucking cares?
Marc:Now, I'm not trying to be angry, but I am angry.
Marc:Like, all that's out here right now, in a lot of ways, you just walk around and there are just people, they're like content viruses.
Marc:They're sort of like, can you just say something to me so I can put it on my thing?
Marc:You know, so that, like...
Marc:That's all that's going on here this week.
Marc:I need to put it on my thing.
Marc:What kind of thing is it?
Marc:It's a platform, but there's unique users, and it's going in.
Marc:There's a cloud involved.
Marc:I'm fucking on it.
Marc:This thing is going to go to nine other things, and then 400 million people could possibly see your thing if you talk to me on my thing.
Marc:It's like, shut the fuck up.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And because I'm being a little bit critical, because I have a thing.
Marc:And we're all here to see this thing.
Marc:But it was just one of these moments where I'm talking to Pat, and whoever he's talking to goes, hey, I've only got a few minutes.
Marc:And it was that tone where I'm like, for what?
Marc:Who the fuck are you?
Marc:Like, in my brain, what I said was like, OK, cool, man, and walked away.
Marc:But on the elevator, I'm like, what's that guy's fucking thing?
Marc:Talk to me in that fucking tone?
Marc:I'm going to find something to talk about in a minute.
Marc:Like, I feel like I put too much anger out there initially.
Marc:Are some of you feeling that, too?
Marc:Like, now, I don't even know if the guy that caused that in me is sitting in here right now.
Marc:Like, that guy who just thought he was, like, trying to do his job doesn't realize that he had a guy on an elevator hating him.
Marc:Like, he was just sort of like, thanks for not interrupting.
Marc:Meanwhile, I'm like, who the fuck?
Marc:You know...
Marc:Couple emails, then we'll start the show.
Marc:Was it okay before?
Marc:It was better before, right?
Marc:Before I even turned the mics on, right?
Marc:No, you're okay with it now?
Marc:Why am I focusing on you?
Marc:You know what it is, is I have this relationship with an audience where there's a whole room full of people here, but you, it struck me immediately as completely codependent with me immediately.
Marc:And that, like, you know, we'd set up this thing, I was out here talking to people before the show, and you were like, hi.
Marc:And I'm like, that's my guy.
Marc:That guy is going to love everything that comes out of my mouth, no matter what I fucking do.
Marc:So if I'm, like, insecurely thinking that the rest of these people are like, when's the thing, you know, like you, are going to be like, so you're carrying me.
Marc:You're my guy.
Marc:I'll try to respect the relationship.
Marc:I'll probably hurt you a little bit by the end of the show, but, like, right now, we're good.
Marc:So, subject line, hey Mark, I'm depraved.
Marc:How am I not gonna get into that email?
Marc:This is kind of long, but I think it's good for what he ultimately wanted to say.
Marc:Hey, Mark, I had an interesting experience while listening to your podcast a few months ago.
Marc:It took me until now to finally reach out and regale you with it.
Marc:For some portions of my life, I spent time being one of those online gaming nerds.
Marc:My stints in gaming are usually bad.
Marc:The stereotypical dude staying up too late, not getting enough sleep, all the vaginas of the world taking evasive action in the process.
LAUGHTER
Marc:This is a grandiose insecure guy.
Marc:All of the vaginas.
Marc:Everywhere there's a vagina, they're running from me.
Marc:Anyway, that's always a good transition.
Marc:Right after the vagina thing.
Marc:Like, anyway, here we go.
Marc:There was this one night at about 3 a.m.
Marc:when I was playing this game, and because I prefer something intellectually stimulating as opposed to the in-game music and sound effects, I had downloaded all the recent episodes from your podcast.
Marc:I was in the process of catching up.
Marc:I think it was the Kurt Braunohler episode.
Marc:Suddenly, in the midst of you and Kurt talking about philosophy, I got horny.
Marc:It was one of those uncontrollable moments, maybe somewhere from the unconscious, where my excitement came out of the same weird or latent desire to have sex, probably because of the self-inflicted dry period I was going through.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure, buddy.
Marc:So naturally, I pulled up some porn and looked around for some good, wholesome gals that knew their way around a groin of the opposite sex.
Marc:And then in parentheses, am I keeping this unnecessarily PG?
Marc:All right.
Marc:So I land on Jaden James or Rachel Starr or Cagney Lynn Carter.
Marc:It's not really important.
Marc:Well, to some of us.
Marc:I, um...
Marc:For those of us who know those people and want a direct image of what you're about to fucking dump into my mailbox, all right.
Marc:What is important is the fact that I didn't care to listen to the audio from these porn stars.
Marc:While listening to you and Kurt, I remember distinctly thinking, oh man, this episode is getting really good.
Marc:I don't really need to hear these girls moan while I'm jerking off.
Marc:I'll continue listening.
Marc:Yeah, how do you take that?
Marc:The depravity of it didn't really hit me until after I was finished.
Marc:I was jerking off to the visuals of a porn star while trying to pay attention to your and Kurt's conversation.
Marc:And shortly after the fact, I quickly decided that if I were given the choice to do it over, or maybe in a similar circumstances, do it again, I totally would.
Marc:Which yes, sounds very creepy.
Marc:But I feel like I was able to separate those two portions of my brain, pleasing myself to images of a woman while engaging with your podcast.
Marc:So now he's trying to frame this as like, I did something good.
Marc:Maybe it just represents the dedication some people have toward your show.
Marc:Yeah, okay, buddy.
Marc:But it could also be indicative of, at least obliquely, the allure your thoughts and conversations have for others.
Marc:Is he just sitting here trying to rationalize out loud that he jerked off while listening to me talk to my friend, and now he's sort of like, but, like, look at it this way.
Marc:But here's the big declaration.
Marc:What I'm trying to say is I enjoy the show.
LAUGHTER
Marc:I'm sure if you read this on the podcast, people will be thinking, man, this email is totally queer.
Marc:That wasn't even on the list of things.
Marc:All I can say to those people is, that's a mean thing to say, and I'll suck as many dicks as I need to for you to take it back.
Marc:Just kidding.
Marc:Keep up the good work, Mark.
Marc:Cheers, Nick.
Marc:And then I got this one, and then we'll start the show.
Marc:This one just says, hetero sex club.
Marc:No name or nothing on the signature.
Marc:It's just like three sentences.
Marc:My girl and I travel up from LA every few months, and we have sex with each other in front of others.
Marc:It's chill, laid back, and quite fun.
Marc:I'd invite you along, but that might be awkward.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Like, it's sort of like an invitation he bailed on midway.
Marc:Hey, maybe Mark would be like, nah, that'd be bad.
Marc:I thought about that.
Marc:You know, I guess, like, on some level, having sex in a room with other people having sex, on some level, it's just sort of like eating dinner with many people.
Marc:Except naked and, you know.
Marc:Yeah, it's not like that at all, is it?
Marc:I mean, I'm not really looking to do that.
Marc:I think it would be, I don't know, would it be fun?
Marc:Why am I just putting this out there right now?
Marc:Everything was going well, and now I'm sort of like, can anyone help me out with this problem I'm having?
Marc:All right, it's a nice segue to my first guest.
Marc:I'm thrilled this guy was up here, because I listen to his show, and I think millions of people listen to his show, but do we really know him?
Marc:No.
Marc:Please welcome the host of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, Mr. Peter Sagal, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:Hey, buddy.
Guest:Come here.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:How many of you are like, that's what he looks like?
Guest:How many of you are horrified?
Guest:Like, I had no idea when I looked you up.
Guest:Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't it weird being a radio guy?
Guest:Where people are like, oh, I thought you were so much different.
Guest:This is what I've learned, which is that people meet me.
Guest:I'm sure this is happening right now.
Guest:For the first 30 seconds or so, they don't hear a fucking word I say.
Guest:For example, many of you probably didn't.
Guest:He just said fuck.
Guest:I know, but they... That took me less time than I were glass to say fuck.
Guest:Half of them didn't even notice because they were still going, fuck, he's bald.
Guest:But now you're used to it.
Guest:So hello, I'm not going to do it again.
Guest:You're handling the bald thing well.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Yeah, no, you're doing the right thing with it.
Guest:It's my gift.
Guest:It's what I do.
Guest:I just feel I don't have less hair than you sons of bitches.
Guest:I have more face.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And if you attack me, I can go like this and blind you and make my escape.
Guest:Like, you're the guy on that show.
Guest:I'm the guy on that show.
Guest:I am like... You're the guy on the... Are you the guy on the show?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm the guy on the show.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Hello, everybody.
Marc:And someone brought it up like they said I should do your show, and I did do your show once.
Guest:You did do your show.
Marc:But what I didn't realize... Not on my show.
Marc:I was on your show, and I didn't realize until after the fact that Bill Cosby had canceled.
Marc:That's, in fact, true.
Marc:Did someone tell you?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah, you were trying to keep that from me?
Marc:You had a fucking room full of 2,000 people waiting for Bill Cosby?
Guest:We did.
Marc:Who the fuck is Marc Maron talking about cats?
Guest:This is actually true.
Guest:We were in Tampa, Florida.
Guest:Normally when we're on the road in a big theater, we get a live person.
Guest:But that was the day that we had Bill Cosby finally lined up to be on the phone.
Guest:So I was like, these people would be thrilled.
Guest:And we were promoting.
Guest:You'll come, you'll hear Bill Cosby.
Guest:And he called one of my producers at, I think it was 5 in the morning.
Guest:And I can't do a Bill Cosby, so imagine some...
Guest:Ian, it's Bill.
Guest:And he thought that, like, bailing on him personally at 5 in the morning, it would make it all right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There was a little time.
Guest:What time were you taping?
Guest:What time were you taping?
Guest:We were taping at 7.30 that night.
Marc:Okay, so you had a day.
Marc:We had a day.
Marc:So you went through a long list and like, fuck, no one's going to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you know who Marc Maron is?
Marc:Is that what happened?
Guest:Basically.
Guest:And we're like, who the fuck?
Guest:I don't care, I said at that point.
Guest:Whoever he is.
Guest:No, the fact of the matter, and we did tell the audience, we said, be nice to him.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Pretend you're excited.
Marc:You're taking it all away.
Marc:Here I'm standing...
Guest:No, that's not true.
Guest:We didn't do that.
Marc:I'm standing in my kitchen talking to fucking Peter Sagal, and how many people were in that room?
Marc:About 2,500.
Marc:2,500 people, and I'm standing in my kitchen making coffee, and I'm hearing laughs, and I'm like, I'm fucking killing somewhere in Florida.
Guest:And you were standing there going...
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It was legit.
Guest:Because here's the thing, as everybody knows, that everybody who's in the business is a huge fan of yours, and that includes all of us.
Guest:And because it's like, you know, you've heard this phrase, the comedian's comedian, right?
Guest:Yeah, that's not always a good thing, but yes.
Marc:What that means generally is like, he tried, and everybody likes him that likes comedy.
Marc:Well...
Marc:No, I know what you're trying to say.
Guest:To me, it's like this.
Guest:It's like, you know what they say about, like, if you want to be a good tennis player, you've got to play tennis with someone much better than you are.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:That would be my brother, and he can go fuck himself.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I could have been another guy.
Guest:I remember the first of your podcasts I listened to opened with you talking about how you exposed your nipple to Ken Melman on an airplane.
Guest:He was sleeping.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:And it was like, Mark, because everybody's talking about this podcast.
Guest:I was talking about the podcast.
Guest:I will listen to this podcast.
Guest:And he's talking about being in an airplane and taking off your shirt.
Guest:To take a picture.
Marc:I wasn't just sticking my nipple in Ken Melman's face.
Guest:He would have little use for it.
Guest:Well, no, actually he would.
Marc:No, actually he would have loved it.
Marc:That was like days before he came out.
Guest:It would have been like... And I'm listening to this, and I'm thinking, I am self-hating and fucked up.
Guest:But this guy...
Guest:And I need to listen and understand how this is done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and so we all listen to the podcast around the show.
Guest:Wait, you're self-hating and fucked up?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:God, that is so good.
Guest:I mean, comedy, isn't it?
Guest:I mean, isn't it redundant?
Guest:No, but you're fucking the guy on that show.
Guest:Again, little know that the guy on the show would be a guy.
Guest:Wait, wait, don't tell me.
Guest:You're just sitting there going, ugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doesn't everybody... Oh, I love when this happens.
Guest:Doesn't essentially everybody loathe what they do?
Marc:No, I don't think you... Well, let's talk about that, dude.
Marc:So what was the trajectory?
Marc:How did you end up there?
Marc:I have to assume that your goal at the end game, you know, you're a man, you're in your 50s, was not to host a talk show.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:Really?
Marc:No, not quite.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:But it happens to me all the time.
Marc:He said covering.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, I get that all the time.
Marc:I get what I just said to you all the time.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:Yeah, and it makes me feel bad, too.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:I'm 48.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So...
Guest:This is going really well.
Guest:Now I hate myself more.
Guest:That's all I'm trying to do, Peter.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:I want to see you get on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, the next show you do and go, I'm fucking done with this.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Shut up, Sue Ellicott.
Marc:That's what I want to hear.
Marc:I can follow your lead in that.
Marc:Yeah, because I've said that.
Marc:All right.
Marc:It's another story.
Marc:Okay, let's go back, man.
Marc:Me and you.
Marc:Young Peter Sagal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All his wife's ahead of him.
Marc:Hopes and dreams.
Marc:Graduating Harvard.
Guest:What's the plan?
Guest:True.
Guest:I was going, actually, to come out to L.A.
Guest:and make it big in the movie industry.
Guest:Oh, in what way?
Guest:Did you have a specific thing?
Guest:You know, in general.
Guest:So you were just sort of like... No, I was a writer.
Guest:I was a writer, and I was really interested in the theater.
Guest:I was going to be, like, a serious theater artist.
Guest:That was my thing.
Guest:Yeah, that was my deal.
Guest:Who were your guys?
Guest:My guys, well, geez, were, like, Mamet and Tony Kushner, who I got to meet when I was working at a theater in L.A., and all, like, the genius directors, like Robert Wilson, a guy named Bill Rauch, who's at Ashland now.
Guest:And that was my thing.
Guest:Robert Wilson, ladders.
Guest:Ladders.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People moving very slowly.
Guest:A 20-foot Lincoln walking across the stage followed by a fish.
Guest:That's what I wanted to do with my life.
Guest:Because that's what makes the world fucking move forward.
Guest:And I once saw Robert Wilson speak.
Guest:And he was going to talk about his great work, The Civil Wars.
Guest:And he said...
Guest:I thought it would be interesting to have something divided into six parts.
Guest:And he drew five lines in a blackboard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Making six parts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he said, and then I thought each of the six parts should be divided into three parts each.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I decided there should be Lincoln.
Guest:And people were rapt, right?
Guest:I was rapt.
Guest:Are you kidding me?
Guest:People were taking notes, right?
Guest:And I was like, I want to be so important that I can say shit like that.
Guest:And it will mean something.
Guest:I want to be the guy who people either understand me or are terrified of admitting they don't.
Guest:Okay?
Okay.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:I'm writing that down.
Marc:That's what you want.
Marc:That's going to be the theme of the show.
Guest:You want to be the guy who you're in a cocktail party.
Guest:People say like, well, yeah, I saw Peter Sagal's latest.
Guest:It was extraordinary.
Guest:And you say to yourself, fuck, I hated it, but I can't say that.
Marc:But no, I think most people are afraid that they won't understand it.
Marc:And I think that like, you know, I'm going to talk to Harmony Kareem later.
Marc:For example.
Marc:And James Franco.
Marc:But like there's something.
Marc:But like when you just described that to me.
Marc:that you know there's six parts and then three parts and then lincoln whatever got him to lincoln who the fuck cares yeah i mean that was the beginning of this idea and then he built around the idea and he was had a freedom enough uh mind freedom freedom of mind enough to just pursue that what it's not well that's actually true i mean that was what was so cool about him is because people wanted i did i was stupid wanted him to explain well lincoln represented this it didn't he just wanted lincoln to walk across on stage of course he's got a fucking
Marc:top hat.
Guest:Why wouldn't you want that?
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:That's what he wanted.
Guest:That's what Tony Kushner and Spielberg said.
Guest:They started with the hat.
Guest:And they built from there.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So I wanted to be very important.
Guest:I wanted to be very serious.
Guest:I wanted to teach the world what was wrong with it.
Guest:And let me tell you, world, there's a lot.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:Fucking preach it, brother.
Guest:And I...
Guest:Fucking school these people, man.
Guest:And I always assumed that if I was on a stage like this and I would be addressing you, afterwards you would either carry me around in your shoulders or you'd try to hang me.
Guest:And either would be acceptable.
Guest:Would you settle for crying?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't have to be killed or carried, but sometimes it's alright.
Guest:Once I wrote a play and a woman saw the play and she came up to me and she said, I want you to know your play breaks me.
Guest:And that was all I wanted.
Guest:That's all I wanted.
Guest:You wanted to break her.
Guest:I wanted to break her.
Guest:I wanted to make her rethink everything.
Guest:You still in touch?
Guest:No.
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:So you wanted to be a playwright.
Marc:But how long were you out there in the wilderness?
Guest:I was out in L.A.
Guest:for five years, which were both the worst and best five years of my life.
Guest:Because L.A.
Guest:is awful, but L.A.
Guest:is where incredibly cool people are, who I met and who started this...
Guest:wrote career and encouraged me to write.
Guest:And I met a lot of really cool people, including some of the ones I mentioned.
Guest:But I decided to get out right after the riots.
Guest:I was there in the riots.
Guest:Were you there for the riots?
Guest:No, I'm so sad I missed them.
Guest:It was a great time.
Guest:I heard it was awesome.
Guest:It was awesome.
Guest:I was like, oh man, you should have been here when we had riots.
Guest:That was so cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But okay, so you got out because you were scared or you were just done with show?
Guest:No, I was just done with LA.
Guest:I thought LA was an awful place.
Guest:Did you do anything?
Guest:Did you write anything?
Guest:Um...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I eventually got hooked up with a guy named Avi Nesher.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Avi Nesher.
Guest:There's a lot of those.
Guest:There's a lot of guys.
Guest:Avi Nesher was an Israeli movie director.
Guest:There's fewer of them.
Guest:Who made a top grossing movie in Israel.
Guest:And he came to America to sort of
Guest:Make it big.
Guest:He was going to be sort of the Israeli Paul Verhoeven, if that makes sense.
Marc:Was this pre-canon or post-canon?
Guest:No, this guy was art.
Guest:This guy wore black.
Guest:This guy was going to make art films.
Guest:And he came over and he made a movie called Time Bomb with the guy who starred in Terminator that wasn't Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Guest:Michael Biehn.
Guest:And it went nowhere.
Guest:And his career in Hollywood then continued on a path downward until it met mine.
Guest:And I wrote a movie for him called Savage that was a vehicle for a French kickboxer named Olivier Gruner, who was sort of a poor man's Jean-Claude Van Damme.
Guest:Holy shit, not even a... Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had to write this movie...
Guest:uh in about four weeks and it was interesting because i was writing the movie in the outer office uh avi was in the inner office and avi would get on the phone yeah and avi would talk to the finance guys and he'd say oh finance guys he's great we got olivia we got the star he's all set to go we got the script the script is fabulous it's awesome all we need is the money and hang up and pick up and he talked to olivia and he said olivia it's great my friend we got the money we got the script it's fabulous and he'd hang up the phone and then he'd yell out to me he says peter it's going great i got olivia i got the money how's the script right yeah
Guest:But he put it together.
Guest:It was hard to write because Olivier couldn't pronounce the letter R. Okay.
Guest:And we knew this because his prior movie, he played a killer robot whose job was to protect a woman named Nora Rochester.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So the entire movie...
Guest:which you can see, it's on video.
Guest:It's called Automatic.
Guest:It has Olivia Gruner saying, excuse me, it's not correct.
Guest:It's not safe.
Guest:So anyway, I wrote this.
Guest:And then I was like, I've got to get out of L.A.
Guest:So I moved to Minneapolis.
Guest:Wait, wait.
Guest:You wrote the movie.
Guest:It's called Savage.
Guest:And you got paid for the movie.
Guest:I got paid $2,000.
Marc:And after that, you went into a suicidal depression and your heart was broken and you left LA.
Guest:Not exactly, but more or less.
Guest:I remember when I was writing the movie, my mother called me up and said, oh, Peter, how does it feel to be on your way up?
Guest:So I moved to Minneapolis.
Guest:I was a playwright in Minneapolis.
Guest:How did she like that movie, Peter?
Guest:We actually... By the time they made it, you'll be familiar with this if anybody's in the business, there was one line in it that made it that I wrote.
Guest:One?
Guest:One line.
Guest:And the line was, it's the 90s, let's watch TV.
Guest:That was you?
Guest:I wrote that.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:That was like fucking Lincoln.
Guest:It gets better.
Guest:So I became a playwright and I started writing plays and my plays started getting done in small theaters and one of my plays got read and it was like serious plays and one of my plays was read by a guy named Lawrence Bender.
Guest:You know Lawrence?
Guest:Yeah, he's the guy that produces Quentin Tarantino's movies.
Guest:So he was a very big producer.
Guest:This was the mid-90s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he wanted me to write a movie for him.
Guest:And what do they want to write?
Guest:I had some ideas.
Guest:He didn't like them.
Guest:He hooked me up with his former dance instructor, now production partner, who wanted to direct.
Guest:Follow?
Guest:And she had been a 15-year-old girl in Cuba in 1959.
Guest:Her name was Joanne Jansen, and she wanted me to write the story of a 15-year-old girl in Cuba in the Cuban Revolution.
Guest:So I wrote that movie because I thought it was very cool.
Guest:No one had told the story of the Cuban Revolution.
Guest:The idea of telling it from an idea of an adolescent was really cool to me because the revolutionaries, including Castro, were very young.
Guest:There was a sense of rebelling against their parents.
Guest:That was literally true in some cases.
Guest:A sexy revolution.
Guest:There was a sexy revolution.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And at one point, I mean, I knew I was in trouble.
Guest:I handed in my first draft, and the producer I was working with, the development person, called me up and said, it's good, and it's got a lot of politics, and it had Batista, it had these real-life incidents, it had CIA, it had intrigue, it had cool stuff, it had bombs, it had whatever.
Guest:And she called me up and said, it's good.
Guest:We were thinking of something a little more like dirty dancing.
Guest:At which point I should have said,
Guest:Nothing and just hang up right because what do I know about writing dirty dancing, right?
Guest:And that's not what we were doing We're doing we're doing we're doing this and so I but instead this is my first really big Hollywood sure it was better than Avi and Escher So I said okay I will make it more like dirty dancing and I tried to write it more like dirty dancing more dancing less politics more love less politics more Dancing less bombing and every time I wrote it it got worse and finally they fulfill my contract and fired me yeah that movie got made
Guest:It is called Dirty Dancing 2, Havana Nights.
Guest:Peter Sagal, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:That's my Hollywood career.
Marc:Who knew that?
Marc:That was good.
Marc:Did you know that?
Marc:Now we all know that about him.
Marc:How is it going to feel listening to Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Now?
Marc:That's the guy that wrote Dirty Dancing 2, Havana Nights.
Guest:Can I tell you one thing about that movie?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:There is a scene in that movie.
Guest:I'm sure you've all seen it.
Guest:where the young heroine goes to English class toward the beginning of the movie.
Guest:And it's a pointless scene.
Guest:There's no reason for it to be in the movie.
Guest:And I'm amazed it is.
Guest:I wrote it so I could have a part.
Guest:That was supposed to be me, the English teacher in Havana.
Guest:They didn't call me up.
Guest:I was very disappointed.
Guest:Do you want to give us one of your famous lines from that film?
Guest:Not a single one of my lines survived.
Guest:But the English teachers parked it.
Marc:Peter Segal, ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:My pleasure right now to bring up one of my favorite comedians working today.
Marc:Please welcome Nate Bargatze, ladies and gentlemen.
Marc:Hey, buddy.
Guest:Thanks, buddy.
Guest:How's it going, man?
Guest:Good.
Guest:Living the dream here.
Guest:I thought this festival, I swear, till before I got booked here, I thought this had something to do with Southwest Airlines.
Guest:I don't even know what they would be doing, like just showing planes or something.
Guest:But I thought they were like that good of a company that put together a festival.
Marc:And no.
Guest:That's good, man.
Marc:It's good to see you.
Marc:You're just one of those guys I'm going to sit here and just like wait to laugh.
Marc:Is that okay with you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just hope it happens.
Guest:I'm the only guest on this that you'd have to show a clip and explain who it is.
Guest:Everybody else is like, yeah, we know him.
Guest:And me, he's like, well, just watch him a little bit.
Guest:Let me email you some clips.
Guest:And then you might stay.
Marc:So, you know, you sort of changed my mind about the South somehow.
Marc:Like, for a long time, I sort of condescended the South.
Marc:And then I met people like you.
Marc:And I'm like, well, no, there's good people down there.
Marc:And the stereotypes aren't true.
Guest:And it's good.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:I do have a story that will fit in to what you think we are.
Guest:It was with my family.
Guest:I didn't grow up real redneck-y, and I almost wanted to be, because all my buddies would hunt and stuff, and I didn't.
Guest:But then my family pulled in, and they were like, oh, we are like this.
Guest:So...
Guest:I went to my, this was a couple years ago, I went to my cousin's wedding.
Guest:And so my parents are from Louisville, Kentucky.
Guest:So this was in Kentucky.
Guest:So we go there and my cousin's getting married.
Guest:You know, it's a big day for her.
Guest:So we pull up and I get out.
Guest:I'm wearing like khakis and like a collared shirt.
Guest:Nothing crazy.
Guest:Would be very underdressed at normal weddings.
Guest:But I was killing it at this wedding.
Guest:Everybody had jerseys on and stuff.
Guest:That's like a go-to, I think, for people that don't have money is just wear a jersey because that looks good.
Guest:Any specific jerseys?
Guest:I'm wearing kind of this one right now.
Guest:So we get there.
Guest:I'm walking in, and my uncle is greeting everybody, and he's got his tux on.
Guest:He's got everything on, but they forgot his shirt.
Yeah.
Guest:So he's like wearing like a jacket, cummerbund, pants, shoes, everything.
Guest:No shirt though.
Guest:And just greeting everybody.
Guest:And everybody loves it.
Guest:Everybody thinks it like, no one's like, this is your daughter's biggest day of her life.
Guest:Maybe don't do this for one second.
Guest:And he just is like, no, this is what we're doing.
Guest:This is how we're just greeting everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then we go into the wedding, and it's kind of weird with, like, the guy she was marrying, with their family, because they had, that guy's uncle came to the wedding, and they haven't seen him for six months, and then I found out why, and it's because one day they bought, you know those fake lottery tickets?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They, like, say you win, like, ten grand.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they bought a fake lottery ticket.
Guest:The whole family did, and then when he was coming into the house, they were like, let's let him do it, and we'll play a trick on him, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so they give it to him.
Guest:Everybody's looking at him, like, you know, being like, oh, we're going to win.
Guest:And he scratches it off, looks at it, and he goes, we did not win, and left.
Guest:Left at the door.
Guest:$10,000.
Guest:Not even that much.
Guest:Like, you know, it wasn't a million or something.
Guest:It was 10 grand.
Guest:And nothing clicked.
Guest:Like, your whole family's looking at you.
Guest:Nothing clicks that maybe it's a trick.
Guest:And then, uh, so he was embarrassed to show his face for six months.
Guest:He didn't have a gift, which he probably was like, well, you understand I don't have any money, because I thought I did.
Guest:I was going to buy you something real nice.
Guest:We go, so we're in the wedding.
Guest:So the wedding's starting now?
Guest:Wedding's starting.
Guest:As they walk down the aisle, you know, we all stand up.
Guest:I swear they're drinking beer.
Guest:Like, I just hear cans popping.
Guest:We're in, like, a church, and we're just like, these guys are animals.
Guest:And then some guy stops my cousin as she's walking down the aisle to take a picture with his camera.
Guest:Like this is her big moment that girls love.
Guest:And he's like, hey, hold on one second.
Guest:And then with like a flip camera.
Yeah.
Guest:So he does that.
Guest:They get married.
Guest:We go to the reception.
Guest:They take a horse and buggy.
Guest:The reception was about four miles away.
Guest:They take a horse and buggy, which then, like, we didn't calculate that that takes forever.
Guest:So it takes them like a good hour and a half to get to the reception.
Guest:Like, they should have, like, way, like, thought of it and be like, let's do a car, like, halfway or something.
Guest:But they, like, committed so much to be like, let's do the whole thing.
Guest:And the reception was just at someone's house.
Guest:Like, they, like, rented, they gave her money to be like, can we do it in your backyard?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we're just in the backyard.
Guest:They have, like, plywood down so you know where to dance.
Guest:Because you can't just be wandering around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like a lunatic.
Guest:Just pieces of plywood.
Guest:Like four of them would be like, look, this is where... A band?
Guest:No.
Guest:There's box wine.
Guest:They just had like a radio.
Guest:And if you had to go to the bathroom, you had to go in the people's house, which we didn't know the people.
Guest:And those people stayed.
Guest:They didn't leave and go, all right, we'll give you some time alone.
Guest:You just walked into this people's family.
Guest:And you're like, I got to go to the bathroom.
Guest:And it's just this woman and kids.
Guest:And you're like, oh, this is the worst.
Guest:So everybody's boozing it up.
Guest:And how the night ends is my great uncle, older guy, he wanted to watch a basketball game, Kentucky basketball.
Guest:So he tells his wife, my great aunt, he's like, let's go.
Guest:We're going to go watch this game.
Guest:And my great aunt's like, no, we're staying for the whole thing.
Guest:And then they get in an argument, and then he punches her in the face.
Guest:That's just what... He just fought her.
Guest:He just fought his wife.
Guest:They've been married forever.
Guest:And then, like, everybody's, like, trying to fight him.
Guest:And it's like, he's probably, you know, if he's willing to do this in public, I bet he's good at fighting.
Guest:Because, you know...
Guest:So how much shit went down?
Guest:They just, like, grab him and, like, just break him up.
Guest:He's an old man.
Guest:He just wanted to watch his basketball game.
Guest:He's into basketball.
Guest:So that explains it.
Guest:That explains it.
Guest:And that's how, you know, they're not together anymore, though.
Guest:They, like...
Guest:Not my great, actually my cousin.
Guest:They divorced.
Guest:How long ago was this?
Guest:I don't know, maybe three or four years ago.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So it didn't last?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, I mean... With such good omens.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Everything was starting off so good, I'd be like, these guys have really got something.
Guest:No, it didn't even sort of paint out.
Guest:Are you still married?
Guest:I'm married, yeah.
Guest:It's like fine.
Guest:And what kind of baby did you have?
Guest:A human one.
Yeah.
Guest:We went that route, and we had a girl.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:A little girl.
Marc:It's like three or four months now?
Guest:No, no, she's eight months.
Guest:No, she's 17.
Guest:It's been old.
Guest:She's eight months old, and it's, I don't know, it's like crazy.
Guest:It's like pretty unbelievable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it's like, you're seeing, like, we took her to the park, and you're seeing her see grass for the first, so it's all this stuff that's like the first time, she doesn't know what...
Guest:It is funny, though, because when she poops, that's what you say to a baby, but she'll just do it in your face.
Guest:Her nose would be touching me, just like... It's the most awkward thing to make, even though it's my daughter, it's weird to be making eye contact with a human being that's pooping.
Guest:And we're both just looking at each other like, I know, I know.
Guest:This is not how it should be.
Guest:But it's, I don't know what to do.
Guest:You don't get it yet.
Guest:Do you see like the relief come over her face?
Guest:Yeah, she smiles.
Guest:She smiles.
Guest:It's a big deal.
Guest:That's like all they have.
Guest:That's...
Guest:It's the only thing that's right there for them to be like, once this is over.
Guest:That's a rich, full day for them.
Guest:It's an exciting day.
Guest:We go take a nap.
Guest:We lay down, we take a nap.
Guest:What's your daughter's name?
Guest:Harper.
Guest:Harper?
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Yeah, it's after David Beckham's kid.
Guest:So...
Guest:We're big, big Beckham fans, so we thought we would just do that.
Guest:When she goes to daycare, though, like, and I feel bad, because, like, I take her to daycare, and I'm like, I gotta do stuff around the house, dude.
Guest:I do nothing.
Guest:It couldn't be.
Guest:I even feel bad.
Guest:People are like, you're at home.
Guest:And I'm like, well, I've got to do.
Guest:I've got to write.
Guest:I've never wrote.
Guest:I just tell people, I've got to write my jokes.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:How do you think they're going to come out?
Guest:I just sit at home and play video games.
Guest:But it's going well.
Guest:It's going good.
Marc:We'll see what... Do you have another one right now?
Guest:No, not right now.
Guest:My career's not going good enough to do one more.
Guest:The first night we got her home, she was like crying.
Guest:And I told my wife, I was like, we're not doing this again.
Guest:Like that.
Guest:The first day?
Guest:I mean, she's basically been alive for three hours.
Guest:And I already was like, this is too much.
Guest:This is way too much.
Guest:And I cannot do this.
Guest:Have you acclimated to it?
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of.
Guest:I mean, you know, we take her to the daycare.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:You just go there and drop her off to strangers.
Guest:I guess they're good.
Guest:There's not like an honest Yelp review about daycares that's like...
Guest:It's like, oh, I don't know.
Guest:The place is clean, but they stole our kid.
Guest:So it's really just as long as that daycare is not in the news.
Guest:It's the only way you know if it's like a solid daycare.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking.
Marc:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Marc:My next guest is a film director who I've enjoyed for a long time, and I remember when he first came out and I was living in New York, and I was like, this guy's a fucking wizard.
Marc:He's a genius.
Marc:He's Harmony Kareem, ladies and gentlemen.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:Hi.
Guest:Hey, what's up?
Huh?
Guest:How's it going?
Guest:What happened to your eye?
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:Already?
Guest:Oh.
Guest:The lights?
Guest:Lights, and everyone's funny.
Guest:No.
Marc:You're funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In a different way.
Marc:You grew up down south, though, too, right?
Marc:Did you grow up in Nashville?
Guest:Yeah, Nashville.
Guest:What part did you grow up in?
Guest:Old Hickory.
Guest:Do you know where Jackson's from?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a weird place.
Guest:How did you end up in the south?
Guest:Because my parents... They just went down there?
Guest:Yeah, there was a commune and then... Really?
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:There was a commune they were living in and then I just was with them.
Marc:Did you have a hippie upbringing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Group effort?
Guest:There was a lot of people in the house at all times?
Guest:Yeah, there was a lot of hippies and...
Guest:They were communists and stuff and throw Molotov cocktails.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Hardcore.
Marc:So they had an agenda.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your parents got out of that, I imagine, at some point when the Molotov cocktails happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They moved in.
Guest:They moved into Nashville.
Marc:And you grew up around film, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I grew up like watching movies a lot.
Guest:And my dad started making documentaries when I was a kid.
Guest:So, yeah, I grew up around it.
Marc:Like the old cameras cutting?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And you'd sit there and watch him cut?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It must have taken fucking hours then.
Guest:Yeah, years.
Guest:And it was about like moonshiners and, you know.
Marc:So he's out in the hills?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you go with him?
Marc:Was there a moment?
Guest:Yeah, I was like with him.
Guest:Uh...
Guest:follow him.
Guest:I didn't go to school until later, I think.
Guest:I missed the first couple of years.
Marc:So you could go drive around and look at moonshiners?
Guest:Yeah, in like a carnival and stuff.
Marc:Was that sort of the beginning of you knowing what you wanted to do?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I got into skateboarding and I pretty much didn't know what I wanted to do until high school, I guess.
Guest:I had to pick something.
Guest:And then...
Guest:All I really liked was movies, and so I started making films in high school.
Guest:I didn't really make particularly good grades or anything.
Marc:And that's when it just started happening?
Guest:Yeah, and then I was just like... I lived next to Vanderbilt University, and there was this movie theater called Surratt.
Guest:Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he's all in.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:I did not go there, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's this theater called Strat Cinema, and I would just go there, and they would have different double features every day, and I would watch movies after school, and then I just kind of liked it.
Marc:So when you started, when you made kids, that's when I first remembered.
Marc:Were you living in New York at that time?
Guest:Yeah, I had just moved to New York, and I started going to NYU, and I met Larry Clark in a park, and then that's like... So that was it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Buddha moment.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:What'd you and Larry Clark talk about after he hit on you?
Guest:After he what?
Marc:Hit on you.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No, it wasn't like that.
Guest:You ever try speed?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:A little like that.
Guest:It's pretty crazy.
Guest:No, I just started taking photos and everybody's like...
Guest:And he was like, what do you want to do?
Guest:And I was like, make movies.
Guest:And then I used to have these videotapes of films I'd make with my, I lived in my grandma's house.
Guest:And I would put her phone number on the tape, on the cassette, and I just handed him one.
Guest:And then he called me the next day and was like, can you write this movie?
Guest:And that's how it happened?
Marc:So you work with him, like, I mean, I'm trying, how old was he then?
Marc:Because, I mean, he'd already been through some shit.
Guest:Yeah, probably, he was probably like 50 at that point.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And are you still in touch with him?
Guest:I haven't spoken in a while.
Guest:I mean, no, there's nothing.
Marc:Well, no, no, I'm not suggesting anything, but he's an interesting guy.
Guest:Yeah, he was.
Guest:He's pretty hardcore.
Marc:Yeah, very hardcore, I would say.
Marc:He defines hardcore.
Marc:But when you were doing that process, I mean, how involved was he?
Marc:Because I'm just trying to figure out where your vision to sort of do what the hell you want to do and how you sort of started seeing things cinematically was influenced by him.
Guest:At that point, I was just a kid, really.
Guest:I was probably 19 at the time.
Guest:I was thinking about movies in a different way or wanting to make films in a different way.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:I wasn't really wanting to work with actors.
Guest:I was trying to get to somewhere that was...
Guest:At the core of something that was different.
Guest:And then we had just talked about movies and what we wanted to do.
Guest:And basically, I don't really know, I wrote it in a week in my grandma's basement.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:And Larry liked it?
Guest:He was like, fuck it, let's do it.
Guest:Yeah, that is what happened.
Guest:I just turned it in.
Guest:I'd never written a script before.
Guest:I didn't know anything about how to do it.
Guest:And...
Guest:And that's kind of what happened.
Guest:All those kids were just like my friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that was a great movie, but when you started shooting your own and writing your own, then it became sort of more defined and a little weirder.
Marc:But I just think it's amazing that you were given this opportunity to be mentored by one of the few functioning devils in art.
Marc:I mean, because that guy, if you think like, okay, give me a list of Satans that have done great work.
Marc:Larry Clark is like at least number three.
Marc:I mean, in a good way.
Marc:You know, the good parts, I say.
Marc:Yeah, I say that with love.
Marc:I've been, you know, I've had many relationships with the devil in different faces.
Marc:But when you start doing your own stuff, like, because I know the new movie, I didn't get to see it because you guys didn't send me a screener.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it does look a lot different than what you've done before.
Marc:It seems like there's more money, bigger stars.
Marc:So how do you move from Gummo and the Donkey Boy?
Marc:What were you trying to do with those movies?
Marc:And then how'd you get here?
Guest:I have no idea.
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:You can think.
Marc:It's a hard one.
Marc:Don't say it's a horrible question.
Marc:No, a hard one.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Marc:I was so ready to be defensive with you.
Marc:It's sort of like, that kid better not make a fool out of me.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:No, it's not horrible.
Guest:what was I trying to do with it?
Marc:Because it seemed that you were going after the sort of vulnerability of people that were dramatically different.
Marc:And you sort of lived in that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was like, I don't know.
Guest:Again, there were specific images and things that I wanted to see and sounds that I wanted to see in a different way of watching movies.
Guest:And
Guest:a lot of those places I had grown up in and people, I don't know, you're just attracted to what you're attracted to.
Guest:I was at the time when I was making those films, I was kind of like exploding.
Guest:My mind was really difficult for me to shut off my mind.
Guest:I just had like so many ideas and images and everything and I wanted the films to reflect that, like images and sounds coming from all directions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was trying to make a different type of film, but I was trying to work on a language and work on something that I couldn't articulate.
Guest:It was more like an energy.
Guest:And that's kind of really the same as what I'm trying to do now.
Guest:Make films that are more about a feeling or more of a physical experience than something that you could explain or as easily articulated.
Marc:So that sets it apart from necessarily being hinged to narrative or style or anything else.
Guest:Why do you keep trying to pin this kid down?
Guest:Let him just talk about what he wants to talk about.
Guest:Excuse me.
Guest:Excuse me, sir.
Guest:Excuse me.
Guest:That he keeps fucking splitting hairs with a very nice gentleman?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:You push and you push and you push.
Guest:Why do you break these people?
Guest:Why do you break these people?
Guest:This fucking guy did gumbo for Christ.
Guest:Isn't that enough for you?
Guest:Oh, but why did you do gumbo?
Guest:Why?
Guest:What led you to gumbo?
Guest:Where, who is gumbo fucking lying?
Guest:Leave the guy alone.
Guest:This is a corporate sponsored event.
Guest:Corporations, they never offend.
Guest:They just invade things.
Guest:So I'm sorry about that.
Guest:Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie.
Guest:Listen, listen to me, listen.
Guest:And who's coming next?
Marc:Eddie, Eddie.
Marc:Eddie, I know it's hard for you to handle the success that you've been going through.
Marc:And I think a lot of the... Oh, listen to me.
Marc:I think a lot of the points you made are valid.
Marc:So do you want me to just let him leave?
Marc:All right, then shut the fuck up.
Marc:How would that be?
Guest:All right, please follow me on Twitter.
Guest:Wait, don't, no.
Guest:Don't you fucking leave.
Guest:What do you got to do?
Guest:My movie, the documentary about me is played, and it's a terrific little piece of work.
Wait.
Marc:Let me ask you a question.
Marc:Let me ask you a question.
Marc:Why did you make that movie?
Guest:I didn't make it.
Guest:I was approached, and the guy was like, you are fucking amazing.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:And then I was like, I was like, well, you're the first fella to say so, so why don't we go next?
Marc:So this is why, because of the success of this documentary, I got to deal with this shit in your new glasses?
Marc:Is that what's happening?
Marc:Is this the new glasses?
Marc:Is this how... I'm talking to a guy who makes beautiful films, and I'm trying to get the heart of it, and you know that that's... That's where I think you're wrong.
Marc:How so?
Guest:Trying to get to the heart of it is always a mistake when
Guest:Oh, here we go.
Guest:Sorry, sorry.
Guest:Who is your next guest?
Guest:What do you care?
Guest:I want to know!
Guest:I see an empty chair, and I think, as a consumer in this society, I get to know who the fuck it is.
Marc:James Franco's gonna come out in a minute.
Guest:Oh, so now it's all about cute people.
Go fuck yourself!
Yeah.
Guest:So, that was Gilbert Gottfried.
Marc:I've never seen him before.
Marc:It was awesome.
Marc:That was actually Eddie Peppertone, and quite honestly, I wish I could say that was planned.
Guest:That wasn't planned?
Marc:No, it wasn't fucking planned.
Marc:And usually, if there was more time, I would talk to him until he eventually said, yeah, you're right.
Marc:But now he's on the thing.
Marc:You know that guy?
Marc:Oh, yeah, I know him.
Marc:Yeah, he's on the show a lot.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, but that's really him.
Marc:And I think he's got a point, right?
Marc:In the sense that, like, am I bothering you with my questions?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:This is how, you see, like, we have a very weird relationship, him and I.
Marc:No.
Marc:He actually made me feel like, you know, maybe he's right.
Marc:Maybe I should just shut up and enjoy what you do and not even... But you know what?
Marc:Fuck Eddie.
Marc:So I understand.
Marc:Because this is sort of what I wanted to get at.
Marc:Because you were a guy who has done exactly what you want to do, how you want to do it, to whoever enjoys what you do without feeling the pressure of necessarily having to do something to accommodate an audience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That takes a lot of fucking balls.
Marc:And...
Marc:What is this film that you're doing now?
Marc:Because it seems a little more boom.
Guest:How's it different?
Guest:I mean, I think it's like, it's still part of the same thing.
Guest:I really don't feel, I mean, it's different maybe that it's a progression of a lot of the ideas and styles and things.
Guest:I mean, the only thing that really makes it,
Guest:different, maybe, is the cast.
Guest:But, you know... It's a bigger movie?
Marc:I mean, was there a bigger production?
Guest:I mean, the production wasn't that much bigger, but it was more the chaos and the energy around it was bigger.
Guest:It is, yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm looking forward to it.
Marc:Let's get James out here so he can talk about his side of it.
Marc:Harmony Kareem.
Marc:Great.
Guest:Please welcome to the stage James Franco.
Guest:Hey, buddy.
Guest:Weird Bobcat Goldwaite, though.
Guest:I didn't know what that was.
Marc:You didn't know what that... He's a... Funny bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's a comedian.
Marc:He does this show a lot, but that's really who he is, and I think he had some good points.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I want to go see that movie.
Marc:You should go see it.
Marc:It's called The Bitter Buddha.
Marc:All right.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Can I... Hey, what's up, man?
Marc:There was a moment there I'm like, he's not going to look at me the whole time.
Marc:Well, we're really close.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Marc:I have no boundaries.
Marc:I apologize.
Marc:It's draining.
Marc:So I saw the trailer.
Marc:I wish I could say the whole movie, but I didn't have it.
Marc:Come see it tonight.
Marc:What time?
Guest:Right after this.
Marc:Right after this?
Marc:9.30.
Marc:9.30 I might be able to do.
Marc:Can I just get in?
Marc:I'll hook you up.
Marc:Oh, you will?
Marc:Oh, thanks, buddy.
Marc:So your part looks fucking amazing.
Guest:Yeah, it's probably the best role I've ever had, and I'm really proud of it.
Guest:Yeah, and what is the role?
Guest:Can you tease it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I play a character named Alien and basically the best way to describe it is that he's a gangster mystic.
Guest:He lives in Florida, all the kids go out there for spring break and
Guest:the main actresses meet up with him and he pulls him into his world.
Guest:It's an exciting world.
Guest:It is in a lot of ways.
Guest:I mean, you know, it looks like it's, in some ways, it's gross and...
Guest:you know he's up to a lot of you know bad things but in in some ways it's just unrestrained uh hedonism it's sort of like what would happen if everybody got all of their wishes all at once and uh it you know you just that never ends up good be in like a room of cake and you know everything you want and it's too much but it's what we all dream about sometimes of coke yeah cake or coke whatever whatever yeah
Guest:Whatever you like.
Guest:What was it like working with Harmony compared to every other director you've worked with in your life?
Guest:The best.
Guest:I mean, I've worked with some really great directors, but Harmony has his own flavor.
Guest:And it's really, I think, in line with everything I dreamed about as an actor.
Guest:I was a fan of his work.
Guest:way back when I was in high school, I can't believe it was kids came out that long ago, but I was in high school when it came out, and that was before I was a professional actor, but even then it just had an influence on me, my outlook in the world, or how I, you know, I was into the arts, so just how I wanted to approach art, and here was, you know, something that...
Guest:spoke to teenagers, was about teenagers, but wasn't kind of pandering to them, wasn't giving some kind of false impression of what it was like to be a teenager.
Guest:It was like both aesthetically innovative, but also in some ways very honest, yeah.
Marc:So he actually framed some of your sort of disposition in terms of knowing that there was some other shit going on out there that was, like, great.
Marc:That wasn't just mainstream.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Before I started acting.
Guest:And then working with him, it was like...
Guest:It was a great process.
Guest:There were many stages to it.
Guest:Harmony and I started talking about doing a project before we even had an idea.
Guest:We just thought, oh, we should do something.
Guest:And then you can talk to him about where the seeds of it came from, but eventually there was this treatment.
Guest:It was like, okay, these girls go on spring break, and they meet up with this...
Guest:weirdo named Alien and he pulls him into his world and then I said yes and then it took about a year to put it together and he sent me all these you know he's a great internet researcher so he sent me all the weirdest things he could possibly find on the internet and that all went into the mix and he said this is our guy
Guest:Basically, like the weirdest stuff you get to imagine.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Just like interviews with odd people and weird photos, you know, like gangsters that have like Miley Cyrus tattoos and, you know.
Marc:So you just funnel all this information that you find appealing and sort of, you know, energizing in a kind of, like, almost scary way?
Guest:Well, like, yeah, like, you react to certain images and things, or I do, and then I just, like, compile them, and, like, with his character, I would just send him stuff all the time, audio clips and... Audio clips?
Guest:Of what?
Guest:Or, you know, just, like, clips of, like, people getting in fights in, like, gas stations and stuff.
Guest:So you were walking around...
Guest:Oh, he didn't shoot him.
Guest:No, I would go.
Guest:There's sites just specifically for that.
Guest:It's almost like a fetish.
Guest:Although you shot some of them.
Guest:The other thing Harmony is good at, he's good at internet research.
Guest:And then once he found the location in St.
Guest:Petersburg, Florida, he went down there.
Guest:And he looked for locations, but he also found locals that made their way into the film.
Guest:And one of them was this guy, Dangerous.
Guest:So he did send me some cell phone videos that he had made of Dangerous.
Guest:And it was this weird guy, white guy with dreadlocks, just like rapping in his car.
Guest:And he's like, this is the main model for your character.
Guest:And it was just that.
Marc:Just a guy rapping in his car.
Guest:Sometimes it's just real simple.
Marc:Run with it.
Guest:And then a lot of times it's just like you like the way someone's voice sounds or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there was this rapper from Memphis named Tommy Wright III and I loved him and I loved the way he speaks and I would just send him just like songs and just like the intro to songs and just this like dialect and things.
Marc:That's kind of amazing.
Marc:So you take all this stuff and it's like you're the actor.
Marc:Just dump this into your machine and see what you do.
Guest:It's like a filter.
Guest:It's like and then what you would want and what James did is and he filters it in his own way because also you don't want it just to be mimicry.
Guest:You want it to be something that's like filtered through and then becomes.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So story initially is not that important.
No.
Guest:Well, story's important.
Guest:Story's always important.
Guest:Character's always important.
Guest:I sometimes have a problem with the idea of plot.
Guest:Because life just never seems plotted or people that plot things seem horrible.
Guest:Right?
Guest:You're a person that's going to plot your life.
Guest:I don't want to be around you.
Guest:So why would I plot my movie?
Marc:You might want to be around him when the plot starts failing because that's always interesting.
Marc:Well, that plot didn't work out.
Guest:Stories and characters are what I like.
Marc:So let me ask you a couple other things, James.
Marc:You seem to be very visible in terms of your appreciation and engagement in conceptual arts.
Marc:I'm talking specifically about... I watched that Marina Abramovich documentary.
Marc:There was a time in my life where I found all that very compelling.
Marc:And it had been a long time since I watched anything like that.
Marc:And I was right back into it.
Marc:I was like, this is fucking...
Marc:intense, it's serious, it's amazing, it's important, but, you know, like, does anyone pay attention to it anymore?
Marc:Because I knew, and there you were, you know, like, basically having those thoughts, and then there you were, letting her cover you with gold leaf and honey as an art project.
Marc:Yeah, that was her idea.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:No, oh, well, this...
Marc:I know it was her idea, but how you let her do it is what I want to talk to you about.
Marc:Because there was a moment there where she's obviously like, I'm doing my thing to your body.
Marc:You are my canvas.
Marc:And you're covered with gold leaf and honey, and you didn't go, what are you fucking kidding me?
Guest:Well, I mean...
Guest:I mean, it's basically the process that you go through when you act in a film.
Guest:It's like you have a director, and you basically are like, all right, I'm going to go on the ride with you.
Guest:I trust you.
Guest:You know, Harmony's like, he's not going to bathe me in gold, but he might have.
Guest:I mean, I could see that happening in Spring Breakers easily.
Guest:So it's basically the same thing.
Guest:I trust her.
Guest:I like her stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I thought you handled it very well, but there was definitely a moment where you watched it and said, oh, boy.
Guest:I thought it was kind of weird.
Guest:I mean, she had honey and gold, and it was supposed to, like... Mean something?
Guest:Generate some energy or something.
Guest:I mean, in the end, I thought it was, like, cool.
Guest:It was like a living sculpture or something.
Guest:No energy generated?
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Just try it.
Guest:So that was your attitude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't, you know, you weren't like, I'm done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, people do pay attention.
Guest:That show she had at MoMA was, like...
Guest:record-breaking numbers for the museum.
Guest:So it's not like it's some obscure thing.
Marc:Oh, that thing that she did with walking the Wall of China to break up with that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's an older piece.
Guest:But yeah, the one that the artist is present is like broke numbers at MoMA.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, like, the commitment it would take to walk the Great Wall of China just to end a relationship is profound to me.
Guest:Well, it was supposed to... They were actually... She did that with her old partner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they had conceived of it as a way to...
Guest:start their marriage.
Guest:They were going to walk it and meet in the center and then get married.
Guest:But it took so long to get permission to walk the entire thing that it was eight years later and they were ready to break up.
Guest:So they said, now we'll walk it and then the relationship is over.
Marc:So how much of this part of your brain, because I mean, you're a guy that's fortunate enough to be a great enough actor to make a lot of bread.
Marc:doing big movies and then sort of funnel it into these other projects that you're doing, which are, you know, not necessarily big movies and obviously passionate pieces.
Marc:You know, how much of your brain is, how do you split it up?
Marc:I mean, like, I watched part of the Leather Bar movie.
Marc:You watched part of it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:You walked out or?
Marc:No, I just, I don't have time to see it.
Marc:I watch a trailer so I get an idea of what it was about.
Guest:Oh, you watched a trailer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You saw the trailer.
Marc:Yeah, no, no, it looks, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't walk out of your movie.
Marc:I just wanted to be able to talk about it.
Marc:But what is the premise of that movie?
Guest:That movie is, like, yeah, as you're suggesting, it's fairly experimental or artistic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was really an experiment.
Guest:We started with Friedkin's movie, Cruising, as kind of a point of departure.
Guest:And when his movie was made, it was very controversial.
Guest:I remember it.
Guest:There were protests while they were filming.
Guest:I think there were, like, bottle fights, and, you know, all the NYPD was out there.
Guest:And mainly, I think, because...
Guest:Friedkin had set this murder mystery in front of the backdrop of these gay leather bars.
Guest:And so he wasn't trying to do anything that was homophobic, but it was just the inferences were that that lifestyle led to murder and depravity.
Guest:And so people didn't like that.
Guest:But I don't think it was intentioned to ever have that.
Guest:So...
Guest:I thought, well, I was really attracted to just the images in that film.
Guest:And that was a starting place for me.
Guest:But then I also thought, well, it's 30 years later.
Guest:Let's examine it and see how, you know...
Guest:this kind of material is depicted now, have things changed, what hasn't changed, and that kind of thing.
Guest:And that was the starting place.
Marc:Do the bandana colors still mean the same thing now?
Guest:Well, sort of, not really.
Guest:No, more about how are certain lifestyles and images represented in mainstream film and that kind of thing.
Guest:And...
Guest:And so we just started there, and then I had this collaborator, this guy named Travis Matthews, who had made these films where there was actual sex in the films, but he wasn't using it to titillate people.
Guest:He was using it as a storytelling device, that basically sex is behavior between people, and there's all different kinds of sex, and that it was actually...
Guest:It's actually a tool that we haven't developed very much because we don't allow it in our films.
Guest:We can blow people's heads off, but you can't really have much sex, especially gay sex.
Guest:So the making of it and the decisions that we were making and the discussions we were having were just as interesting as the content that we were shooting.
Guest:So we've made that part of the film as well.
Guest:So...
Marc:And it was primarily just to sort of like re-examine how sex is depicted in culture and why certain sex isn't depicted in a certain way and what it means.
Guest:But also, it's also doing the thing that we're talking about because we do show sex.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so it is what it kind of talks about.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm proud of it.
Guest:We premiered it at Sundance, and then we took it to the Berlin Film Festival.
Marc:So, one other question.
Marc:Why did you do the general hospital thing?
Marc:Was that an experiment?
Marc:You just want to ask him why he does so much shit.
Marc:No, no, no, no, like, because I want, like, because a lot of people, like, after he hosted the Academy Awards are like, oh, was he fucking around?
Marc:What was going on with that?
Marc:And then, you know, you do the General Hospital thing, you make a documentary on it, it's sort of like, you know, where's the goof end?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:The goof end?
Marc:Yeah, where does the goof, like... Oh, where does the goof end?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You thought I said a word you might not know?
Marc:No.
Marc:You don't know what a goof end is?
Marc:It's a very important artistic... This is the goof end down here.
Yeah.
Guest:There's just different levels of engagement.
Guest:There's no reason not to be able to do all different sides.
Guest:When I go and...
Guest:act in a film like Oz, and I play the Wizard of Oz, the goof ends.
Guest:I want to fit into that world.
Guest:I'm not trying to wink at the audience and say, hey, it's me, the actor behind the character.
Guest:I want that character to fit into that world.
Guest:But as soon as I'm done with that project, there's no reason why I have to just stand behind these facades of these characters and just...
Guest:be known or not be a creative artist in addition to that.
Guest:So it's just about different approaches or different reasons for doing different projects.
Marc:And so when you were doing the general hospital thing, I mean, was that funny to you?
Guest:I mean, it started off as, like you said, an experiment.
Guest:I was talking to an artist friend of mine, and we were going to do a movie where I played a character that had formerly been on a soap opera.
Guest:And that got us talking about, like, hey, what if you were really on a soap opera?
Guest:And I had also been reading this book by this guy named Carl Wilson.
Guest:It's called something like The Journey to the End of Taste or something like that.
Guest:It's part of this series called 33 and a Third about all these music records.
Guest:And he wrote about Celine Dion, not because he liked her, but because he didn't like her and he wanted to understand why.
Guest:Like, why did he feel like Elliot Smith was superior to Celine Dion?
Guest:And in the book, he...
Guest:The conclusion he comes to is that, well, different people get different things from different kinds of art or culture.
Guest:And I thought, well, there's this hierarchy that people have when they consider different forms of acting.
Guest:Like, well, you're supposed to start off on soap operas and then hopefully you graduate to primetime television or mainstream movies.
Guest:But I look at a lot of mainstream movies and I think, well...
Guest:That's no deeper than what people consider soap operas.
Guest:It's just that they have more money to put vampire teeth in people flying through the air.
Guest:But the plot's no deeper.
Guest:The characters are no deeper.
Guest:And then I also...
Guest:looked at soap operas and I thought, you know, there's so much they can do that movies can't do or primetime can't do.
Guest:They make so many episodes that they can, you know, react to current issues in a much better way than all these other forms.
Guest:They go on for so long you can have characters go through decades of development.
Guest:It's, you know, there's interesting things that you can do.
Guest:And so I thought, yeah, who am I not to go on it?
Guest:Let's just try it.
Guest:And then when I did go on, there was such a big reaction.
Guest:And I remember going to this event at MoCA around the time I was on there.
Guest:And these artists, contemporary artists were saying, oh.
Guest:I love that you have that forum of General Hospital.
Guest:I wish I had that kind of forum and could do work on television like that.
Guest:And they were being earnest.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Artists have done it.
Guest:Warhol went on Fantasy Island or something like that.
Guest:Chris Burden bought eight seconds on some local channel.
Guest:But you did like 50 episodes, right?
Guest:I did a lot, but they film really fast, and they called them like Franco Fridays.
Guest:So I would go in, and we would shoot like 15 episodes worth of material in one day.
Guest:So I only worked a handful of days.
Guest:Because it looked like you had a second career in soap operas for a little while.
Guest:Yeah, but we filmed it all in like five days.
Guest:Was it fun?
Marc:It was really fun, yeah.
Guest:And they were great people, and then also I thought like...
Guest:Before I went on, I thought, oh, am I going to have to act like soap opera style?
Guest:And then when I got there, I realized a big lesson for me was
Guest:how important context is and how much context transforms a performance.
Guest:So I didn't have to act like a soap opera actor.
Guest:I mean, I went on and acted normally and tried, again, just like I tried to fit in the world of Oz, I just tried to fit into that world.
Guest:But because there's so much dialogue, because they don't have money for action, it's much easier to just shoot two characters on a couch saying the same things over and over and over again.
Guest:because they put on so much makeup, because they have to light really fast and, you know, shoot everything really just in one take, it creates a specific kind of product.
Guest:And it's the same thing, you know, Harmony has its own way.
Guest:Like, all right, we go to real locations, you know, you mix in with real people, non-actors.
Guest:You have extreme characters mixed with, you know, people not acting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know, that creates a specific kind of product.
Guest:But in both cases, I'm kind of applying my trade in a similar way.
Guest:I'm trying to fit into both worlds, but I will look very different because of everything that's around me.
Guest:So that was a big lesson I learned.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Which is why you can see, you know, great actors like...
Guest:Sam Jackson kill it in Pulp Fiction and then you see him in Star Wars and you're like, what?
Guest:It's because of the context.
Guest:He's an awesome actor.
Guest:In that context.
Marc:I guess sometimes you just can't transcend the context.
Guest:No, it transforms you.
Marc:You never can transcend the context.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To a certain extent.
Marc:Yeah, you don't always know what's going to come out.
Guest:And you don't really want to.
Guest:Then if you're trying to transcend the context, then you're just making the movie about you and your performance.
Guest:I see movies as a director's medium.
Guest:I always want to serve the director and the film.
Guest:So I don't want to transcend the context.
Guest:It's just that sometimes the context is weird.
Marc:Well, okay, so it's just, I mean, I'd be stupid not to do it.
Marc:So what about the context of the Oscars?
Marc:What was that experience like for you?
Guest:I did what they wrote me.
Guest:I didn't write that stuff.
Guest:I was trying my best with what they wrote me.
Guest:They want me to go out like Marilyn Monroe?
Guest:They think that's funny?
Guest:All right, I'll do it.
Marc:And I don't want to do a disservice to some of the listeners.
Marc:When you look back at Freaks and Geeks, I mean, what are your feelings about it?
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I mean, it was a really special time and experience, and it happened so early for me and almost everybody on there.
Guest:That was Seth Rogen's first job, and...
Guest:You know, people like Mike White were, you know, writers, and Judd, you know, was one of Judd's, you know, earlier shows, and I guess I didn't understand how special it was to have all those talented people in all departments come together like that.
Guest:I just, I guess I probably just thought, all right, well, it's a good show, but, you know, there'll be a lot like this, and there wasn't for a while, you know, after that, but...
Guest:One of the lessons I learned on that one was the way that they designed the show, the episodes, and the characters for the people involved.
Guest:They weren't trying to fit people into these already designed holes.
Guest:They designed everything around the people.
Guest:In the pilot, my character was described as...
Guest:like a Latino guy with Peter Frampton hair.
Guest:So I didn't fit that, but they wrote the character around me.
Marc:But you killed it enough to where they're like, well, this is the guy, let's just... Yeah, I mean, what they did in the auditions is basically found people that they wanted to work with.
Marc:Or so they said, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And have you looked back at it?
Marc:Have you ever watched it again?
Guest:I did watch it when the DVD came out, yeah.
Marc:And were you like, was there some, did it like pull at your heart a little bit in any way?
Marc:Or were you like, oh, look at me, I was a kid.
Wow.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I took myself pretty seriously then.
Marc:Not now, though, which is good.
Guest:I don't, really.
Guest:I try not to.
Guest:And...
Marc:No, I mean, I think you're... No, I don't want any trouble.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:Jesus Christ, let's not let it get weird now.
Marc:No, I think you're... Like, you know, when I came into this, like, it's really... Stop.
Marc:Don't go away.
Marc:Please don't go away.
Marc:I'm not fucking with you.
Marc:I swear I'm not fucking with you.
Marc:I really wanted to talk about art, and it was thrilling to hear, you know, your approach to everything, and it was very...
Marc:honest and very respectable, and I'm fucking glad you did the show.
Guest:And I think that's good, right?
Guest:James Franco, Harmony Kareem, May Bargatze.
Guest:Why is your name going away?
Guest:Peter Sagal.
Guest:Peter Sagal.
Guest:You all right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thanks for having you guys.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Guest:All right, put on the music.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:Live WTF, South by Southwest.
Guest:I appreciate you coming.
Guest:Thank you for listening to the show.
Guest:Have a good festival.
Guest:Good night.
you