Episode 367 - Gina Gershon
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck minikins what the fuck is stanny's what the fuck a pinos what the fuck a deluxe and what the fuck a holix that's enough of that i am mark maron this is wtf do me a favor folks
Marc:Before you hit fast forward, if you could, my new book, Attempting Normal, is out at the end of April, but available for pre-order now at Amazon, at Powell's, on iTunes.
Marc:Get it wherever you want it, but if you could, a pre-order would help me out.
Marc:I'd like to know what the interest is out there.
Marc:So pre-order, Attempting Normal, by Marc Maron.
Marc:And yes...
Marc:There is a Kindle edition.
Marc:There is an enhanced e-book edition where I do some talking.
Marc:There's also going to be an audio book out that I talk through.
Marc:That was an important process for me, recording my own audio book.
Marc:Reading my own book was daunting.
Marc:So if you could do that, that'll be coming out soon too.
Marc:But the pre-order is available now.
Marc:If you could do that, that'd be great.
Marc:Okay, who's on the show today?
Marc:Gina Gershon is on the show today.
Marc:She was on in an episode of my show, Marin, that's going to be on IFC in May.
Marc:And we got to hang out and talk.
Marc:So she's on the show today.
Marc:So that's good.
Marc:Look forward to that.
Marc:You know, I don't do a lot of public service announcing unless it directly relates to me.
Marc:Call that selfish or call that just the way it is right now.
Marc:But I got an interesting email that I'd like to share with you.
Marc:I've been known to like cats, to care about cats.
Marc:I've got a cat outside right now, a deaf stray black cat, a feral deaf cat.
Marc:How tough does that cat have to fucking be to survive out there with coyotes to be deaf?
Marc:He's like, I'm afraid of that cat.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:But I got this sort of a cry for help from a woman named Marianne.
Marc:Not about her, but apparently there was an issue.
Marc:There's an issue in the Bronx, my friends, for a change in the Bronx.
Marc:So I imagine this is going out to the New York area.
Marc:Apparently, 25 kitties, cats, were in this home of a hoarder who died recently.
Marc:And there were about 40-plus cats, apparently, and about 25 of them still need homes.
Marc:And there's a threat that they will eventually end up at animal control, and that doesn't end well.
Marc:But apparently the animal rescue group Empty Cages Collective has collected these cats and they need home.
Marc:So if you're anywhere, I would imagine within as far a mile radius as you're willing to go from the Bronx, you should get in touch with them because they got these cats.
Marc:And that's EmptyCagesCollective.com.
Marc:uh but it was just one of these ones where you know i get this in my email box and what am i going to do what am i going to do like i'm not going to yeah i can't you know screw that no there's there's a lot of cats that need some help apparently the the woman who hoarded them is no longer with us but the cats survive so uh check out empty cages collective so some of these cats might find some homes if you're in that area and you're looking for a cat who isn't looking for a cat am i right
Marc:Look, I had Eddie Pepitone on the show recently, and quite honestly, look, Eddie and I have a dynamic.
Marc:We have a relationship.
Marc:We understand each other.
Marc:But his buddy, Stephen Fine Arts, who directed the film Bitter Buddha, was a little upset with me.
Marc:And in retrospect, I can understand it.
Marc:So I...
Marc:And now, you know, there are movies opening in New York, which is a big deal.
Marc:So it opens tomorrow.
Marc:So if you don't mind, I'm going to get Eddie on the phone, get some details, try to, you know, patch things up a little bit.
Marc:And let's see how that goes.
Marc:Let's get let's get Pepitone on the phone.
Guest:Eddie Peppertone Industries.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:Your name and your business.
Marc:Eddie, it's Mark.
Guest:Hello, Mark Maron.
Marc:Very clever.
Marc:You know, I was all set to think, wow, it's gone to his head.
Marc:Listen to this guy.
Marc:What kind of message is that?
Marc:This is not the Eddie Peppertone that I know and love.
Marc:He's something different now, some sort of monster.
Guest:Well, you know what success does, Mark.
Guest:There's whatever you are essentially, it magnifies.
Guest:It's like a drug.
Guest:And I am essentially a power-hungry Brooklyn man who never had a mother.
Guest:And that is getting bigger.
Marc:So now you're basically demanding people parent you on a much larger scale.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, I walk down the streets now, and when people run up to me instead of autographs, I say, please tell me what to eat and tell me what I should do with the rest of my life.
Marc:And if you could get me some ice cream and take me to the movies, that would be nice.
Yeah.
Guest:I want to go to a double feature with the Marx Brothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want to go to a matinee like they did in the old days with the Marx Brothers, and I want you to read me Henry Miller at night.
Marc:Oh, see, that's a weird expectation from your mother, but that's all right.
Guest:Yeah, well, he's my muse, but how are you, buddy?
Marc:I'm fine, Eddie.
Marc:Look, first, out of the gate here, I want to take this opportunity to perhaps... Well, you know, not perhaps.
Marc:I'm not going to hedge.
Marc:I am sorry if I offended you with the interview we did with you and your director, Steve Fine Arts.
Marc:I know that there was...
Marc:There was some behind the scenes tension that I didn't really make public.
Marc:But Stephen was upset.
Marc:He felt that I was condescending.
Marc:Perhaps I was.
Marc:But with you, you know, I certainly didn't want to do anything to hurt your feelings.
Marc:And, you know, you and I have a certain dynamic and I don't always know how it comes off or how it's understood.
Marc:And I brought him into it, too.
Marc:And and I want nothing but the best for you.
Marc:And that's that's an apology mixed with some pandering and.
Marc:And a little bit of backpedaling.
Marc:How did I do?
Guest:Yes, well, you know, I'm fine, Mark.
Guest:I am fine with you, and I believe you and Stephen buried the hatchet, so everything is cool, you know?
Marc:I want the movie to do well.
Marc:I enjoyed the movie.
Marc:I'm happy to be part of the movie.
Marc:I thought it was great for you.
Marc:I thought it was interesting.
Marc:I liked that kid, Steven, but I took a shot at him.
Marc:It happens sometimes.
Marc:I can be a little bit of a bully.
Guest:uh yeah yeah me too me too i i think it's part of uh what we do you know we we go after things and you know i'm riding high now and uh i think uh you know you you you were like let's let's knock this down a couple of nots yeah because no one deserves to be taken down a notch but you but you eddie i mean i know i just moved into a new apartment at the age of 54 i mean
Guest:How do you top that in life?
Marc:Well, that's the problem.
Marc:If I take you down two notches, we're out of notches.
Guest:We're in the sewer.
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:You got a new apartment?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:I am so happy about it.
Guest:It's a really nice place, like lots of new furniture, and now I'm nervous that it's going to be taken away from me.
Guest:For some reason, whenever I get something good, I'm like, oh, my God, who's going to take this?
Guest:And I can't believe that I'm having that reaction.
Guest:Like, instead of, like, really...
Marc:feeling great about it i'm like wait a minute what why you know this is going to be taken from me yeah i i have that going on too about things and i i don't know what that is i i if you figure it out let me know but what's going on you do too yeah what what's going on though i mean you you're selling out everywhere now
Guest:You know, I've had a couple of things come my way in regard to selling out.
Guest:And I realize now the temptation of it.
Guest:And like, wow.
Guest:Why are you being so vague?
Guest:Why are you being so vague?
Marc:Why are you being so vague?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:You've had a couple of things come your way.
Guest:Well, I don't want to name a product or you know what I mean?
Guest:Oh, wait a minute.
Guest:Let's just say it's blood diamonds.
Marc:Listen to me.
Marc:When I said selling out, I meant comedy clubs.
Marc:I wasn't talking.
Marc:You know, you're so fucking sensitive.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Did you mean that?
Guest:I feel really terrible about that.
Marc:All you're sitting there is worrying about, like, what are they going to think of me if I do this commercial?
Marc:I'm asking about asses and seats, my friend.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, I am.
Guest:And that is really nice.
Guest:That is amazing to me that people...
Guest:are coming to the clubs specifically to see me.
Guest:I'm in Boston tonight.
Guest:This is your old stopping ground, I understand.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Where are you playing?
Guest:Improv Boston tonight.
Marc:Great, man.
Marc:I mean, like, I'm thrilled that it's happening for you.
Guest:Yeah, and then we're going to the Bell House, and then the movie opens at Cinema Village in New York on March 8th.
Marc:So that's tomorrow night.
Marc:That's very exciting, man.
Marc:Is there a premiere or what?
Guest:Yeah, it's the premiere...
Guest:the whole week in, in cinema village.
Guest:And yeah, it's a premiere.
Guest:We're going to have Julie Klosner do the Q and a, um, with me and Steven, um, on the opening night.
Marc:Tell it, will you please tell Julie that he's very sensitive and to make sure to integrate him into the conversation?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It'd be funny if you kept having to go on the air for further apologies, like each episode you do.
Marc:Well, I mean, this is the main one.
Marc:But, okay.
Marc:So you're opening at Cinema Village tomorrow night, Friday.
Marc:That's March 8th.
Marc:Very exciting.
Guest:It's iTunes and Video On Demand.
Guest:It's on right now.
Marc:So it's already on iTunes and Video On Demand.
Marc:This is the Bitter Buddha.
Marc:But, you know, go show some support in New York.
Marc:It opens tomorrow night, Friday, March 8th.
Marc:All week long it's going to be there.
Marc:So, Eddie, you're going to be at every screening, every day?
Marc:Are you going to be there?
Guest:No, we'll be at the premiere.
Guest:I can't be at every screening every day.
Guest:Then we're going to Austin doing South by Southwest.
Guest:And then we go to Chicago where it's going to open at the Music Box Theater, which is an awesome theater, and do a Q&A.
Guest:And then I'm doing a club in Chicago.
Marc:So this is very big news, man.
Marc:So you're going to be at South by Southwest.
Marc:I'm going to be there, too.
Marc:Perhaps.
Marc:Are you guys doing a panel?
Guest:I think I am doing a panel.
Guest:I'm doing a panel with Kamau Bell.
Guest:Kamau Bell, yeah.
Marc:But you're going to do a screening of the movie?
Guest:A screening of the movie at South By?
Guest:Yeah, we're going to do a screening as well, yeah.
Marc:Do you need me to come by and apologize to Stephen?
Guest:Yes, come by.
Marc:Is he sitting right there?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Put him on the phone.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Hey, Mark.
Marc:Hey, Stephen, it's Mark Maron.
Guest:Hey, how you doing, man?
Marc:Look, if I misrepresented you in any way on this show, I want to apologize.
Marc:I know I hurt your feelings because I was a dick, and I do that sometimes, and I listen to it again.
Marc:It did cut a little deep, but it was not meant to hurt you.
Marc:It was meant to just show you that I can be a bully and a dick, but I'm thrilled about your movie.
Marc:I'm thrilled at the success you're having.
Marc:I enjoyed the movie.
Marc:I think you did a very nice thing with me in the movie, with the animation, and that's all that's important to me is how I'm represented.
Marc:I appreciate it, Mark.
Guest:We already talked it out.
Guest:We don't have to fake it for the airwaves.
Guest:We're good.
Marc:I'm not faking it.
Marc:This is public.
Marc:This is not fake.
Marc:This is an evolving apology.
Marc:We're already good.
Marc:It's an evolving apology, Stephen.
Marc:I like to evolve my apologies.
Marc:See, because the first time I apologized to you, I don't want to do it.
Marc:The first time when I got you on the phone, I'm like, what the hell is wrong with this fucking kid?
Marc:Steal with me.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was justifying it to myself.
Marc:I'm like, can he take a joke?
Marc:And then a few days later, I talked to you again.
Marc:I'm like, look, I'm really sorry.
Marc:But I hung up the phone and I still felt like, what is that kid's problem?
Marc:I mean, what do I got to do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:But with the same guy, that's why I had the effect that I did.
Marc:And now this is actually the public and most earnest apology that I can give you.
Guest:Well, I appreciate it, Mark.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:And I wish you nothing but luck with the movie, and it sounds very exciting.
Guest:Thanks so much.
Guest:I'll talk to you back.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Now put Grandpa back on.
Guest:Here he is.
Guest:Everything good?
Guest:Is everything smoothed over?
Marc:I don't know with Jews.
Marc:Listen to me.
Marc:All right, well, look, have a great time.
Marc:Try to enjoy the success.
Marc:You're not going to fuck it up.
Marc:You've got nothing to lose anymore.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Guest:I think that's true.
Marc:All right, have a good time, Eddie.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Marc:I'll see you soon.
Marc:Okay, bye.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That went well.
Marc:I love Eddie.
Marc:And I love Steven.
Marc:And it's very exciting.
Marc:And I hope everybody goes to see the movie in New York City.
Marc:Because that's why it's a homecoming for Eddie.
Marc:And we love Eddie.
Marc:You got to love the Eddie.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:My guest today is the lovely and amazing Gina Gershon.
Marc:Gershon.
Marc:Yeah, we discussed that.
Marc:I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing it right.
Marc:But she wrote a book.
Marc:She wrote a book about her cat, and it's called In Search of Cleo, How I Found My Pussy and Lost My Mind.
Marc:It's a very engaging title.
Marc:You ready to talk to Gina Gershon?
Marc:All right, let's do that.
Marc:Malibu who?
Marc:What?
Guest:I did one of these with Steve.
Marc:Steve who?
Marc:Agee.
Marc:Why would you do one with Steve Agee?
Guest:Because I like him.
Marc:I know, but how did that come about?
Marc:How did you do Steve Agee's podcast before mine?
Guest:Because we were supposed to do it before, and I said, listen, are you kidding?
Guest:I gave Jeff Garland a hard time.
Guest:I'm like, I'm doing Mark's, I'm doing Steve's, and I haven't done yours.
Guest:I wanted to do yours first, but then Steve came out all the way out to Malibu where I was staying, and then I ended up getting him a gig from it.
Guest:He's now in the movie that I'm going to do tonight.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Where's my gig?
Marc:You mean I couldn't, if I would have done this before?
Guest:If you had done it earlier, I would have gotten you at least two movies by now.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:I know.
Marc:And I put you in my television show.
Guest:I wanted to do the podcast that week and you were the one who were, you were saying, oh, I'm too busy.
Marc:No, that's not true.
Marc:You have like a window.
Marc:It's like, I've got 10 minutes on Wednesday.
Marc:There was a problem.
Marc:Your man came and there was other things.
Guest:Don't blame this on me.
Guest:You were in the middle of finishing your show.
Marc:Yeah, I was.
Marc:I was.
Marc:It was all you.
Marc:I had an hour that I could have given you.
Guest:I bet if he wanted to come tonight and it's a big improv scene, you could.
Guest:I'm sure they would be thrilled.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:What is this movie?
Marc:Maybe it's a big improv scene.
Guest:I don't even know the name.
Guest:It's a friend of mine, Jeff Levy, who's one of my oldest friends.
Marc:You don't know the name of the movie you're in?
Marc:Is that what you're telling me?
Guest:I think it's called The Jeff Levy Project.
Guest:I actually don't.
Marc:I don't think that's a very catchy name.
Marc:I don't know if I'd go see that movie.
Guest:I don't think it's in the name.
Guest:I'm making it up.
Guest:I don't know what the name is, but he's a really good friend of mine, and he says, I'm doing this thing.
Guest:You have to come and do it.
Guest:So I said, fine.
Marc:It's as easy as that.
Marc:I should tell people who's here.
Marc:Gina Gershon is here.
Marc:Do you say Gershon or Gershon?
Guest:I say Gershon, but my family says Gershon.
Marc:So there's actually a conflict within the family about how it's pronounced.
Guest:They don't get mad at me that I pronounce it differently.
Marc:But there's two pronunciations within the home.
Guest:As long as it's not Gershon.
Guest:I hate that.
Marc:Do people do Gershon?
Guest:Like, you know, school and stuff like that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I got Moron, Marin, Moron.
Guest:I mean, Moron is the obvious one for you.
Marc:Yeah, it is obvious.
Marc:Thank you for pointing that out.
Guest:I mean, not for you, but like when you're younger, I would have called you Moron.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Moron.
Marc:That was really clever.
Marc:It's like a gimme.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:Easy.
Marc:Gershon.
Guest:So you grew up here?
Guest:I grew up in the valley, yeah.
Marc:I see, like, I thought, like, when you were on my show and we talked, I was expecting someplace.
Marc:I don't know where I was expecting you to grow up.
Marc:Like, shtod.
Marc:Well, I didn't want, like, I created something exotic and Jewish, not Los Angeles.
Marc:Not valley and Jewish.
Yeah.
Marc:To me, exotic would have been great, Nick.
Marc:Even an island thing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Everyone always is disappointed that I'm not actually from New York.
Guest:I feel like a New Yorker.
Guest:I don't feel like a valley girl.
Guest:Although sometimes I do if I drink too much, then I feel valley again.
Marc:Well, how does that manifest itself?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:What happens?
Guest:Well, I start kind of talking more like this, although I was a Southern woman raised me in the Valley from Mississippi.
Guest:So if I get really drunk, I start kind of talking like this, like an old black lady.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But then I kind of throw in like a totally like that with it, with the old black lady.
Guest:So it's a real like, I need some milk.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that's a, I think that's a one person show right there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just you going back and forth between your Valley youth and this old black lady that brought you up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's how you grew up?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, what was that woman's name?
Guest:Marie Gibson.
Guest:She's the one who actually taught me how to play the Jews harp.
Marc:Did you bring it?
Guest:And if you'd actually read my book by now, you would know all these things.
Guest:You're a dead giveaway.
Marc:Why would I read the book when you can tell me the stories?
Guest:Because if you wrote a book, I would have read it.
Marc:But I didn't have that much time.
Marc:I looked at the cover, I browsed through it, and I'm very excited to talk to you about it.
Marc:This isn't about plugging books.
Marc:I know, but no, I wasn't plugging- This isn't about having a conversation.
Guest:I know, I wasn't plugging my book, but I'm saying- Did you bring your fucking Jews harp?
Marc:Yes, I did.
Marc:All right.
Guest:But I'm saying Marie Gibson is the one who taught me how to play the Jews harp.
Marc:Now, how did she come around to being your caregiver?
Guest:My mammy?
Marc:Your mammy.
Guest:I'm not, is that racist to say?
Guest:She really was.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe.
Guest:No, I'm proud to say I had a man.
Guest:Well, when I was two, my dad traveled a lot and my mom was working.
Guest:What business was he in?
Guest:Import-export.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Tchotchkes?
Marc:Like schmatas?
Marc:Like incense?
Marc:Like beads?
Guest:Like radios and- Appliances.
Guest:Appliances.
Guest:I don't know really what.
Guest:It turned into diamonds.
Guest:I always used to pretend he was a mafia guy.
Marc:It turned into diamonds?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's what he ended up in is diamonds?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is he still in diamonds?
Guest:We don't really like to talk about it in my family.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You know, what's your dad do?
Marc:I can't.
Guest:No, he's been dead for many years.
Guest:He's not doing much.
Guest:I mean, I hope he's doing something.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I have no idea.
Marc:We can only all hope that Papa Gershon is doing something.
Guest:I'm sure he's doing something fun.
Guest:He was a good guy, so hopefully he incarnated into something.
Marc:So what do you mean, diamonds like down on Beverly, where do you have a store?
Guest:No, he had an import-export business that imported and exported everything, and then later on he ended up going into the diamond business.
Marc:And you think it was shady?
Guest:I pretended it was shady, and he looked like a big mafia guy, so when people ask me, I say, you know, we don't really talk about it.
Guest:And we did know these other Jewish mafia guys in the valley, so... Real Jewish mafia guys?
Marc:Yeah, real ones.
Marc:As opposed to show business people?
Guest:No, no, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, the real ones, when something was missing or something went wrong, they're like, oh, you should talk to- Oh, yeah.
Marc:Blue.
Marc:Arnie.
Marc:Oh, Arnie.
Guest:Uncle Arnie.
Guest:And we would tell him like, oh, you know, when we moved the jewelry, they said, you know, we left it there and they said they didn't have it.
Guest:And he said, oh, yeah, okay.
Guest:And the next day the jewelry would show up our house.
Marc:Really?
Guest:With the people saying, I'm so sorry.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The real deal.
Marc:He sent this guy over there or he went over there himself, muscled him a little bit.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was too little to know exactly what he did, but we were just saying, oh, what does he do?
Guest:And they're like, oh, he's in the belt business.
Guest:I went, the belt business.
Guest:And something seemed shady to me about that.
Marc:Yeah, it's all these weird businesses that are just fronts.
Marc:Concrete.
Marc:Belts.
Guest:But my dad looked so big, so I used to pretend I was like a mafia princess.
Guest:And when someone said, what did he do?
Guest:I'd say, oh, you know, he is in the import or whatever.
Guest:And I would just kind of shrug it off mysteriously.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So your dad was one of the big Jews.
Guest:Yeah, he was a big Jew.
Marc:Yeah, there's a few kinds of Jews, and he was a big one.
Guest:Big barrel-chested.
Marc:Oh, yeah, like James Caan style.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, got it.
Marc:But even taller.
Marc:Bigger than James Caan.
Marc:Bigger.
Marc:He was a big guy.
Marc:He was like Gollum.
Marc:Yeah, he was the Gollum of the Jews.
Marc:The Gollum is a Jew.
Marc:Oh, I thought you had a Gollum.
Marc:Gollum, right?
Guest:What's Gollum mean?
Marc:The Gollum is a mythological Jewish giant monster.
Guest:I just gave away what a bad Jew I am.
Marc:That's right, I didn't read your book.
Marc:You didn't read up on being a Jew.
Marc:So there we are, we're even.
Marc:What does your mommy do?
Guest:She did, she was interior design, decorating.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That's pretty Jew-y.
Guest:Is it?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I always feel like a lot of the interior designers I meet are like, I can do your house.
Marc:And it's like, yeah, I've met several years.
Guest:I can do your house.
Guest:She didn't really say that.
Guest:She said, you pay me money, I'll do your house.
Marc:Well, no, of course.
Marc:That's the next thing.
Guest:Um, yeah, no.
Guest:So they were gone a lot.
Guest:And so they brought, and my brother and sister were older.
Guest:And so I needed a, you know, babysitter, like a nanny.
Guest:So when I was two, all of a sudden this, she was really like the first black woman I ever was cognizant of seeing because I was in one of those hairdryer things.
Guest:And all of a sudden my mom was like, this is Marie.
Guest:She's going to be watching.
Marc:You were in a hairdryer.
Marc:This is 1950.
Marc:It was in the fifties.
Marc:It was at home.
Guest:I'm so much older than I think I am.
Marc:Did you have one of those hairdryers at home?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I didn't know.
Guest:I mean, I was two.
Guest:I just remember it was like a big popcorn thing on my head.
Marc:Your mom had it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And she brings in a black woman and you've got your head in a thing.
Guest:And she introduces us.
Guest:And I remember looking at her and I remember saying like, how'd you get so tan?
Guest:Because I was in front of the valley, so tans were in.
Guest:13?
Guest:I was like 40 at this point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I was two.
Guest:I was really little.
Guest:No, that happens, yeah.
Guest:And I remember she's like, you know, she's like, oh, I was a Negro child.
Guest:I was born this way.
Guest:And I remember taking her hands and seeing both, like one was dark and one was light.
Guest:And I was like really impressed.
Guest:I thought, you know, well, how could I become a Negro?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:That's always the first thing.
Marc:You want out.
Marc:I want out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:how can i be different than what i am no i like the color and she said oh chad i was born this way you tickles me and so i mean so she was who i hung out with and then her kids were really mean to her um because she lived in rolling fork mississippi but her kids who lived in la made her pay when she stayed with them and so after a while my mother and father were like just move in with us and so she was with me until i was 16 she was my constant companion and everything
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you confided in her?
Marc:She got you through your period, your first sex, everything?
Guest:No, I wasn't having sex yet.
Guest:Not at 16.
Marc:Really?
Guest:No.
Guest:I can see where this is going.
Guest:No, but she, anytime I was upset, I would go into Marie's room because I didn't cry in front of my parents and my brother and sister.
Guest:It was like war.
Marc:Between those two?
Guest:Just in the family.
Guest:So I'd go and seek solace in Marie's room.
Marc:So you never got the real emotional support from your parents?
Marc:You'd go to DeMarie?
Guest:Well, they weren't there a lot.
Guest:I had an older brother and sister.
Marc:How much older?
Guest:Seven years and five years, which is a lot when you're growing up.
Marc:But that's good for music choices.
Marc:Did they have good music at least?
Guest:It was all about music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cream and Zeppelin.
Marc:It's always good to have someone ahead of you.
Guest:And my sister was the one who she, well, a lot of my family's in the music business, but my sister, she started doing concerts.
Guest:She was at Santa Barbara.
Guest:So I'd be going to heights, you know, having, I was in 12th grade and she would say, okay, you're going to the Roxy tonight.
Guest:I'm like, I have a test.
Guest:She's like, no, no, David Burns playing.
Guest:I mean, the Talking Heads, you have to go see them.
Guest:And I had no idea who they were.
Guest:Of course, it's amazing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Elvis is playing, I'm like, but I have a test.
Guest:No, no, no, I don't care, you're going.
Guest:Elvis Costello, I saw the My Name is True right from the beginning.
Guest:So she kind of guided me and like, you're going.
Marc:That's awesome.
Guest:Yeah, it was kind of great.
Marc:Where'd you go to high school?
Guest:Well, I would have gone to Taft.
Guest:in the valley, but I kind of got in a lot of trouble and I didn't like it there.
Guest:So I ended up going, my parents were like, it's either a girl's school or Beverly High.
Guest:And I was like, I'm not going to Beverly.
Guest:I mean, I was- Did you say it like that?
Guest:I was totally talking like that.
Guest:And I said, it's like, I'll go to the beach or Calabasas.
Guest:I mean, Calabasas, I don't really know why that was a choice.
Guest:You're like a valley Jap.
Guest:I was a valley Jap.
Guest:I was like, I'm so not going to Beverly.
Guest:But then when I got there, they were like, it was better drugs, good music, good theater.
Marc:A lot of rich kids.
Guest:A lot of rich kids.
Guest:Chocolate covered donuts and pizza in the calf.
Guest:That was kind of.
Marc:Sure, movie stars.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wait, what kind of trouble did you get in?
Marc:A taft or wherever.
Marc:In junior high.
Marc:What'd you do?
Guest:Well.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:You know, all of my friends ended up in drug rehab.
Guest:You know, it was in the valley.
Guest:It's like I had an older brother and sister.
Guest:My best friend's brothers were the dealers in the valleys.
Marc:Were dealing what?
Guest:Pot.
Guest:Just pot?
Guest:Dude, I was like 11 years old.
Guest:That's enough.
Marc:No blow?
Guest:There's no blow?
Guest:Blow came in later on at Beverly because there's more money.
Marc:Do you talk, do you tell your age ever?
Guest:No, I don't want to talk about that.
Marc:Okay, fine.
Marc:It's so boring.
Marc:I'm looking for a point of reference for us.
Marc:You and I are the same.
Marc:Okay, fine.
Guest:Ish.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:More or less.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So boring.
Marc:That was such a... I'm a girl, man.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:It's like a sexist business we're in.
Guest:A racist or ageist.
Marc:It's one of them.
Marc:All of those, actually.
Marc:But every one of those.
Marc:You're absolutely right.
Guest:I know.
Marc:The only thing it's not is anti-Semitic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You're so right.
Guest:Because there's so many Jewish actresses working.
Marc:Well, no, but the Jews run the business.
Guest:I know, and they want to hire the shiksa goddesses.
Marc:A lot of them, yeah, that's true, isn't it?
Guest:You could name the really, really super successful actresses probably on one hand.
Marc:Outside of, what's her name?
Marc:Rachel Weiss?
Marc:Is that her name?
Marc:Weiss.
Marc:Weiss?
Guest:They're Jew-ish.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Quetta Paltrow says she's Jew-ish, which I think, but I think her dad was not her mom.
Guest:She doesn't seem very Jew-ish.
Marc:Blythe Danner does not seem Jew-ish.
Guest:She seems Schicksis straight up.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're smoking pot.
Marc:You're 11.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And so my friends were getting, you know, I think you're a product of your environment.
Guest:And in the Valley, there wasn't a lot of stimuli at the time.
Marc:Still isn't.
Marc:I don't know if you've been there.
Guest:No, I tried to avoid it.
Guest:No, but I was stealing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in fact, my first juice harp I stole.
Guest:I keep going back to that.
Guest:But I got caught from these balls.
Guest:We were like fires and, I mean, skateboards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A bike once, but I didn't get caught except for with the balls.
Guest:But my friends started going to drug centers.
Guest:And I didn't get caught.
Guest:Well, I did get caught with that.
Guest:What am I talking about?
Guest:When I was 11, I got caught smoking pot.
Marc:And your parent, what's your dad's name?
Marc:Stan.
Marc:And your mom's name is?
Marc:Mickey.
Marc:Mickey.
Marc:So Stan and Mickey were upset.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They'd had enough.
Marc:They were at wit's end.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With the young one.
Guest:Well, no, no.
Guest:No, in all honesty, I was the one who was, I got super depressed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember saying to my mom, you know, it was that time when all the girls who were really bitchy at like 14, they all kind of turned against me.
Guest:And I realized I was so bored.
Marc:Why'd they turn against you?
Guest:Because I think I was hanging out with a guy in eighth grade or like I made some eighth grade friends.
Marc:You're a slut.
Guest:Well, I was just looking for some sort of intellectual stimulation for God's sake.
Guest:And all of a sudden they started doing that, you know, we're not gonna be friends with you.
Guest:And I remember looking, I'm going like, fine, I fucking don't care.
Marc:So you were too good for them.
Marc:Good for you.
Guest:I was a little too good for them.
Guest:I was a little too smart.
Guest:No, I just, I was depressed and I got really depressed.
Marc:Like what kind of depressed?
Marc:Like suicidal depression?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the point where I remember saying to my mom, you know, mom,
Guest:Because, you know, I was conscientious.
Guest:I was still Jewish depressed, so I felt guilty if I killed myself, and she felt bad.
Guest:So I said, listen, if I killed myself, I don't want you to blame yourself, which I thought was very honorable on my part.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:It's like it's looking out for her.
Marc:That was nice of you.
Guest:Well, I was into it.
Guest:I thought, you know what?
Guest:There's got to be a better place than the valley.
Marc:Why did you get so bleak?
Marc:Just because of high school and because of geography?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think if I'm not creatively stimulated in any way, I get kind of depressed.
Marc:What were you doing creatively then?
Guest:Well, luckily I started acting and it kind of saved me.
Marc:In high school?
Guest:When I was 14.
Guest:But my friends, they were just all smoking pot and hanging out and I felt like I needed...
Guest:I was depressed.
Guest:I didn't realize it.
Guest:And I remember thinking, fuck this.
Guest:I want to go somewhere else.
Guest:And I really believed without realizing it in life after death sort of thing.
Guest:I thought, I know I'm going to go somewhere else.
Guest:That's better.
Guest:I don't want to be here.
Guest:I mean, I was more depressed than I, you know, when you're that young, you don't realize you're depressed.
Guest:But I told my mom that next thing I noticed is that she was like, we're getting you out of the valley.
Guest:We're moving.
Guest:And so they decided that's when they said, you're in girl's school or Beverly High because she was working there a lot.
Guest:My dad was traveling all the time.
Guest:So it made sense.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they got me out and it was the best thing they ever did.
Marc:Now Beverly High, what year were you there?
Marc:Who was there?
Marc:Let's gossip.
Marc:Who were the stars and the cool people?
Guest:Well Patrick Cassidy was in my class.
Guest:which oh okay yeah and i remember you know being at his house and we're like doing drugs and all of a sudden mrs partridge walked and i was like oh my god but it wasn't mrs partridge it was david cassidy who had a big crush on growing up and i'm like oh my god yeah so that was kind of exciting so patrick cassidy is sean and david's younger brother yeah and you were over there at um we're playing drums and playing guitar at trilly jones's house trilly jones is doing drugs
Marc:And she caught you?
Guest:I thought it was her, but it was really David.
Guest:Because I was like, oh my God, I'm getting busted by Mrs. Partridge.
Marc:And David Cassidy walks in and they're like, hey, David.
Guest:No, it was actually I was kind of weirdly disappointed because then he started hitting on me.
Guest:And it's that weird thing of, well, he's also smaller than I thought.
Guest:And like, I mean, I was madly in love with this guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, Tiger Beat all the way.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I remember those magazines.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was totally into it.
Guest:And but there's something about when the guy that you, oh, my God, you dream of starts hitting on you.
Guest:It's just so disappointing.
Yeah.
Marc:He started hitting on you?
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:15.
Guest:But when I was 15, I looked like I was 24.
Guest:I looked older when I was 15 than I did.
Marc:But he must have been what, 30?
Guest:Yeah, but, you know, he was a TV music guy.
Marc:Like, how far did it go?
Guest:I mean, he didn't hit on me in such a hard way, but he was definitely flirting.
Guest:And at 15, that was like, whoa.
Marc:So, was that a life changer for you?
Marc:Were you like, holy fuck, David Cassidy?
Guest:It made me not really think, ooh, I want to sleep with that guy who is so cool.
Guest:Or, you know, your idols.
Marc:He's tiny, right?
Marc:He's tiny.
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:He's a little smaller than I recall.
Guest:But he just seemed...
Guest:You don't want the guy that you're madly in love with all of a sudden start totally flirting with you.
Guest:It just, it threw me off.
Marc:Ah, I get it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Especially if he's like a pop star.
Guest:He was like a pop star.
Marc:He's like, have some self-respect.
Marc:It felt weird.
Marc:Make me earn it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Make me drop off, for fuck's sake.
Marc:All right, so Patrick Cassidy, who else was there?
Marc:Anybody?
Guest:I'm in my grade, oh my God.
Marc:Well, because you're not like a child actress, but you're close.
Guest:I mean, when did you first start doing- I'm so not a child actress.
Marc:No, but I mean, you started acting very young.
Guest:I started doing plays, and then I was doing a professional play at the Coronet, and they wanted me to stay, but I wanted to go to school.
Guest:It was important to my dad, and it was important to me that I go to college.
Guest:I just didn't want to be kind of the dumbass actress.
Marc:Where'd you go to college?
Guest:I started off at Emerson, and then I went to NYU.
Guest:I graduated from NYU.
Marc:Emerson, how long were you there?
Guest:Barely a year.
Marc:Oh, so you didn't know any of the guys, like Leary?
Guest:No, Leary's old.
Guest:He wasn't there.
Guest:He'd already graduated by the time I got there.
Marc:Eddie Brill.
Guest:I wish.
Marc:Steven Wright.
Guest:I heard about all those guys.
Guest:I only knew Mario Cantone.
Guest:Mario!
Guest:Mario, Gina.
Guest:It's like, Christina.
Guest:I mean, he would, because the guy I ended up living with, Mario was going out with him and I'd go to Rick's parents for Thanksgiving and they'd be like, oh, I mean, he was so gay.
Marc:So you were a college beard.
Guest:I was a college, I mean, Emerson.
Guest:I wish I had known Dennis and those guys there.
Guest:I was like, half of it was like, okay, 92% of the guys here are gay.
Guest:This sucks.
Guest:But Mario and Rick, I'd come home and we lived in a basement apartment without any windows.
Guest:And Mario would be dressed up as Betty Davis and Rick would be Joan Crawford wearing my things and he was bigger than me.
Marc:This was just something you did at home?
Guest:I would come home.
Guest:They'd be like, Christina, Christina, no wire hangers.
Guest:And in order to keep my sanity, I had this mask called Sheila that I put on.
Guest:Her name was Sheila Asshole.
Guest:And she would tell the truth.
Guest:And I would vacuum.
Guest:And I thought, I've got to get out of here.
Guest:Like, seriously, I'm losing my mind.
Marc:And they'd be doing just scenes from Baby Jane.
Guest:doing bits so i know but mar but they were they weren't i don't think they were yeah i think mario might have been a senior then or maybe he'd graduate so what how'd you hit the wall in boston why'd you end up at nyu was emerson just a transition thing you're like were you so fucked up that you couldn't get into a better school and then you went to no i actually um i wanted my best friend went to yale and i kind of wanted to be near her because she was a big influence were you ivy league material or was that out of the question
Guest:I was definitely Ivy League material, but I wanted to go.
Guest:I got basically straight A's, and I graduated double honors from NYU.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Marc:Fucker.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I wasn't making any assumptions about that.
Guest:And actually, it didn't bother me.
Marc:What does double honors mean?
Marc:Is that like a-
Guest:I had a double major, and I graduated with honors.
Guest:It sounds so stupid.
Guest:It was just really important to my dad.
Guest:He said, you could do anything you want.
Guest:If I got a B, he's like, why'd you get a B?
Guest:So I thought, okay, in order to do everything I want, I just have to get A's.
Marc:You had a good relationship with that guy?
Guest:Yeah, he was great.
Guest:He was pretty great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:I wish I had wanted to please my parents enough to get good grades.
Marc:I think I did it out of spite my last year of high school.
Marc:Fuck you, I am smart.
Marc:I didn't apply myself.
Marc:They were all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did they care that you got good grades?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think they were fairly detached from the whole process.
Marc:They just assumed I had everything under control, and these grades would come back, and they're like, aren't you on top of this?
Marc:I'm like, what?
Marc:What do you mean you failed?
Marc:Yeah, I didn't fail, but I kicked in.
Guest:Where did you grow up?
Guest:Where did you go to high school?
Marc:Albuquerque, Highland High.
Guest:Oh, Kirky.
Marc:Yeah, Kirky, man.
Marc:And then I went to Boston University.
Guest:Oh, see, you know what?
Guest:I actually, I think I auditioned because I wanted to go to acting school at BU, and that's one of the places I didn't get in.
Marc:Well, they have a good program over there.
Guest:Yeah, but I didn't get into that, which I thought was amazing.
Guest:And I was like, fuck you, BU.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I went to a stupid college my first year because I waited too long.
Marc:Well, it's not a stupid college.
Marc:It's just not a great... It was...
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:I didn't do great in high school until the last year because I didn't want to go to college.
Marc:What's stupid college?
Marc:Curry College.
Guest:I don't know that.
Marc:No, it's not a bad school.
Marc:It's just a liberal arts school outside of Boston.
Guest:Look at Kirky and the Valley to me are similar.
Guest:Albuquerque and the Valley.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I have beautiful mountains and there's a nice sort of like laid back hippie vibe that used to be there.
Guest:Woodland Hills used to be super hippie.
Guest:And it was pretty.
Guest:I meant like the drug factor and the kind of like lackadaisical.
Guest:You can go one way or the other.
Guest:Albuquerque has more shamans, as I recall, than the Valley did at that time.
Marc:Well, Santa Fe, there's shamans around Abiqui.
Marc:Albuquerque, you know, I mean, definitely it's a land of enchantment.
Marc:And there is that that business is there.
Guest:And every now and then you hear this kaboom because the meth labs blow up.
Marc:I was I left before the meth labs came.
Marc:That's a new thing.
Marc:Breaking Bad is new to Albuquerque.
Guest:I shot a movie there a couple years ago, and to me it was like, okay, what do I do at night?
Guest:It's like there was either gambling, shamans, or meth labs.
Guest:And I thought, I'm working.
Marc:Who were you hanging out with?
Marc:That was the choices.
Marc:What are we doing tonight?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Let's go see.
Guest:When I go on location, I don't hang out with anyone.
Guest:I just kind of explore the land on my own.
Guest:Luckily, I hooked up with the shaman people.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Back in the day, you know, meth labs were really a much more intimate business.
Marc:It was primarily bikers and people working there.
Marc:It was a mom and pop thing.
Marc:Now it's a big racket.
Guest:It's all gone to shit.
Guest:Capitalism is taking over and now it's big business.
Marc:So you go to NYU.
Marc:That must have been a good change.
Marc:Was that where you became who you are?
Guest:I think New York, you know, I individuated as an adult in New York.
Guest:What did you study?
Guest:Well, I was in a BFA program, so acting was my main thing, but then I did philosophy and psychology were my other passions.
Guest:That's what my major is.
Marc:Philosophy, what does that mean?
Marc:What were you studying?
Guest:I say philosophy, but I ended up doing more existentialism, like Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Sartre, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:The regular philosophers.
Marc:The guys.
Guest:The guys, the main guy.
Marc:The dark guys.
Marc:The guys that negated everything.
Guest:No, they were just individuals.
Guest:They take responsibility for themselves.
Guest:I thought they were cooler than, you know, Sophocles and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:I mean, I really liked it a lot.
Guest:You know, I liked setting.
Guest:I liked school.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I really do.
Guest:When people are like, oh, I've got to go to college.
Guest:I wish I could just go and like, my job is to read all day.
Marc:Well, I'm ready to go back.
Marc:I think I might appreciate it more.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What would you take?
Guest:What would you study?
Marc:Well, I've got books over there from college that I still need to read.
Marc:I'm a little behind.
Guest:There's a lot of books over there.
Marc:There's a few that I got to get to, you know, that was assigned in college, but I'm just really slow.
Marc:Tragedy and farce.
Marc:Yeah, to do the homework.
Marc:Yeah, I still have college homework to do.
Guest:You have a troll doll.
Guest:See, we definitely grew up around the same time period.
Guest:I love troll dolls.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know where I got that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Troll dolls are awesome.
Marc:Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in here.
Marc:But no, I think I would like to, I tried to go back, but you know, it didn't really work out.
Marc:I tried to take a class once when I was living in New York.
Guest:What did you take a class in?
Marc:In philosophy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What I never understood about philosophy was there was a language to it, that the way words were used were specific to the discipline of philosophical writing, and I could never really crack the code.
Guest:Oh, see, you probably had a yucky teacher.
Marc:Well, some of those guys that you're talking about, I mean, Dostoevsky's obviously a fiction writer, and I think Kierkegaard is understandable, but to sort of crack being in nothingness is a fucking, that's a chore, man.
Marc:And if you don't know where he's coming from, language-wise, you're fucked.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I learned when I was at Emerson.
Marc:No exit I can handle.
Guest:I can handle that.
Guest:And Camus.
Marc:Yeah, I can handle that.
Marc:But that's fiction writing.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:But the difference is, and it's like yoga even.
Guest:I mean, it all depends on your teacher.
Guest:Because when I was at Emerson, I remember taking a quote-unquote existentialism class.
Guest:It was so boring.
Guest:And I was so, ugh.
Guest:By the time I got to NYU, I had the greatest professor there ever.
Guest:And I thought I'd give it another crack.
Guest:And he was so incredible.
Guest:It's all about the teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, my teacher was like this very tall gay man who spent the entire semester trying to fuck me.
Guest:Well, made it an unpleasant experience.
Marc:Yeah, it was basically a harassment.
Marc:It was existential harassment.
Guest:See, then he was maybe trying to make you stand up and take responsibility for yourself.
Marc:No, he was trying to blow me.
Marc:I don't know if that's the same thing.
Marc:That is crazy.
Marc:He wanted something to stand up.
Guest:How would he do that?
Marc:how would he do that yeah what would he actually do well he was just very kind of like flirty and sort of like you know if I go to the office there was a lot of looking at me in a way that but I respect why would you go to the office to blow them Mark I loved your paper yeah
Marc:No, we actually became friends, but it took a while for me to realize that it was hitting me.
Marc:It was one of those things.
Marc:I was like, wow, he thinks I'm smart and whatever.
Marc:But I learned a lot from that guy.
Marc:He was wrong about me being gay, but I did learn a lot from him.
Marc:I mean, he gave me an appreciation.
Marc:But you did blow him.
Marc:No, I didn't.
Marc:I didn't blow him.
Marc:Did you get an A, I hope?
Marc:I don't know if I got an A. Maybe I did.
Marc:Without blowing him.
Marc:Without blowing him.
Marc:How do you like that?
Guest:Hey, you must have been pretty good.
Marc:I was very charming.
Guest:You don't give yourself enough credit.
Marc:All right, let's move on.
Marc:All right, so when did the roll start happening?
Marc:Because I want to get to the cat story, because I think that's an important part of your life.
Marc:I think this is a big turning point for you, right, the cat story?
Guest:Well, my cat story started when I was in the valley.
Guest:My cats have been with me forever, but we'll get to the cat story.
Marc:When did you break into the biz, man?
Oh.
Guest:I did a play in high school with a friend of mine who went to Yale, Tina Landau, and when I did the show, I had all these agents come up to me saying, oh, let's put you in a series, let's do this, and I said, no, no, I really want to go to school.
Marc:Tina Landau, any relation to Martin Landau?
Guest:no but martin lando was one of my acting teachers and he wrote one of my college recommendations really he was your acting teacher here yeah yeah when you were in when in high school i think i started studying was he great because he's like an old method guy isn't he he's fantastic yeah he's a fantastic guy
Guest:He gave me really good philosophy.
Guest:I mean, his philosophy, because I remember saying, Marty, should I go to school?
Guest:I can do these series, you know, or should I go to college?
Guest:I really want to go to college.
Guest:And he said, he goes, you know, there's two ways to get to everywhere.
Guest:You know, sometimes if you're going on a journey, you could take the freeway, but the country roads are a lot more interesting.
Guest:It might take you longer, but it's a lot, you know, the scenery is better.
Guest:And I always thought that's a good philosophy to live.
Marc:What was he telling you to do?
Guest:Okay, I could see why you need to go back to school.
Marc:Was he telling you to go to college?
Guest:He was saying it doesn't matter if it takes longer.
Guest:You might have a more interesting path.
Marc:If you don't stay.
Guest:To me, staying here and getting on a series is like taking the freeway.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Did you have an opportunity to get on a series or that was the goal really?
Guest:I didn't have that goal.
Guest:When I did the play, I had all these agents coming up to me saying, we'll put you on a series.
Guest:We'll do this and that.
Guest:And I was like, I don't really want to.
Guest:At that time, I thought, oh, I want to do like what Jessica Lange does.
Guest:I want to do like a Francis.
Guest:I'm not going to be able to act in the pieces that I want to be in until I'm in my 30s.
Guest:And so I want to get really good and then do that.
Guest:I mean, I don't know what I was thinking.
Marc:I think that's a good thought.
Marc:That's definitely a good plan.
Marc:But Landau is like, he was like hung around with James Dean and shit.
Marc:I mean, he was like the real deal.
Guest:And he's one of those guys, like you sit down and he'll tell you a zillion stories.
Marc:That's what acting teachers do.
Marc:Is that what they do?
Marc:Yeah, they get a bunch of hungry minds around who want to learn.
Marc:You do a couple exercises and then they go, James Dean once said, and everyone's like, what?
Guest:No, he'd be like, I remember Jimmy and I when we were drunk once.
Guest:But he's really a great storyteller.
Guest:I actually say I loved him.
Guest:So the one guy that I said I wanted to go to school and he was an agent was Chris Albrecht.
Marc:Yeah, he used to be a comedy manager.
Guest:He was a comedy guy and he said, yeah, good.
Guest:Go to school when you're done.
Guest:Come back.
Guest:And I mean, I remember writing him letters saying, you know, you should maybe try writing.
Marc:How did you know him?
Marc:Why were you?
Guest:Because he saw me in the play and he said, I want to be your agent.
Guest:I said, I want to go to school.
Guest:He said, great.
Guest:So the second I graduated, he said, get your ass back here.
Guest:We're putting you to work.
Marc:So he was your first agent?
Guest:He was my first agent, except when I came back, he's like, well, I got good news and bad news.
Marc:I'm getting out of agenting.
Guest:Good news is I just got this gig at HBO.
Guest:I'm like, what's in HBO?
Guest:And he goes, bad news is I can't be your agent anymore.
Guest:So that started my really fucked up lifespan of agents ever since it's been a disaster.
Marc:I have no idea how that side of the business is structured because Albrecht is a guy.
Marc:He was a manager at the original Improv in New York.
Marc:Then he managed an Improv out here.
Marc:And then I guess he became an agent.
Marc:And then he went to HBO and became the head of HBO.
Marc:And now I think he's at Starz.
Guest:He's at Starz.
Marc:Yeah, but it's like that whole trajectory of how those guys, you know, because a lot of agents become these executives eventually.
Marc:Is that the goal?
Marc:Like the agent is not an end game?
Marc:I don't understand it.
Guest:You know, I think he's an unusual guy because I think he's smart.
Guest:I think I don't understand agents.
Guest:He's like literally one of the few I've had that's been amazing.
Guest:Obviously, you know, he never... I think he's smart and I think he recognizes things.
Guest:I think that's why he is where he is.
Marc:So what were your first movies?
Guest:My first movie...
Guest:Well, as soon as so, I got out of school and I did this really, Pretty in Pink was the really first one, but I did this other one before called 315.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was pretty dumb.
Marc:And how old were you, 22, 21?
Guest:No, it's right when I got out of school.
Guest:How old was I when I got out of school?
Guest:19?
Guest:20, 21 or something.
Marc:Yeah, so it starts.
Guest:I started as soon as I graduated, and then I got a play downtown, so I got my equity card, and then I started a theater company.
Guest:I had Naked Angels.
Marc:You were part of the beginning of Naked Angels?
Guest:I'm one of the founding members.
Marc:That's been around a while.
Guest:25 years.
Guest:Who else is in that?
Guest:Oh God, Fisher Stevens, Rob Morrow.
Marc:Fisher Stevens.
Marc:Fisher, jeez.
Guest:What are you doing?
Guest:Fisher's one of my best friends.
Marc:He's like my brother.
Guest:He's an interesting guy.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:He really is.
Guest:We're like two peas in a pod.
Marc:I saw him on Broadway in a Neil Simon play.
Guest:A Brighton Beach memoir.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:God, that was a long time ago.
Marc:Yeah, and I thought he was hilarious.
Marc:He's hysterical.
Marc:Yeah, and then as time went on, he showed up a couple places, and then he became sort of infamous somehow.
Guest:For all the beautiful women he was with.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:He was with Michelle Pfeiffer and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He just directed his first feature, or maybe his second, but he's a great guy, and I think he's a good director, and I think his movies would be cool.
Marc:Who else was in the original Naked Angels?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Nancy Travis, Matthew Broderick, John Robin Bates.
Guest:You know, he's one of the greatest playwrights today that we have.
Guest:And Kenny Lonegan, who's a great playwright, Frank Bullese.
Guest:I mean, all of us, it was kind of like none of us could get a job.
Guest:So we're like, oh, fuck it.
Guest:Let's just start our own company so we could at least work.
Guest:And it was life was so simple.
Marc:It's still around, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you still part of it?
Guest:I haven't done a play there for a while, but I'm always involved in some way.
Guest:On the board?
Guest:I'm on the board.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I'd like to.
Guest:I haven't done a play there for a while because the good thing about it, everyone really works.
Guest:It wasn't like one of those companies like, oh, we can't get a job.
Guest:Everyone started working, so we try to get together and do something.
Guest:But I think it's a good group of people.
Guest:They're like my brothers.
Marc:All right, so you do Pretty in Pink, but that was a small part, but it was recognizable, right?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, every now and then people say, hey, I saw you in pretty pink.
Marc:Do they still?
Guest:It's a teeny part.
Guest:Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Marc:And then when was the big movie?
Guest:The first real break was all of a sudden I got two movies at the same time, Red Heat with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Cocktail with Tom Cruise.
Marc:So I did those two.
Marc:I'm trying to remember Cocktail.
Marc:I have to say I only saw it once.
Marc:That's okay.
Marc:What was your part in that?
Marc:Did you have a big one?
Guest:I played Brian Brown's, wait, no.
Guest:Gosh, I haven't seen it.
Guest:Tom hits on me at a bar and he and Brian Brown, they have this kind of thing and I end up going out with Brian Brown.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, what am I saying?
Guest:I was Tom Cruise's girlfriend.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then Brian Brown lied and said I was with him so we had a big breakup.
Marc:So it was a meaty part.
Guest:Tom was my first love scene ever on camera.
Guest:He was my first.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what were your, do you have any impressions of Tom?
Marc:Not vocal impressions, but like working with him?
Marc:Because I have always felt that he's definitely a unique thing.
Guest:Can I tell you something?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I love him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we had met before at Rob Lowe's 21st birthday party.
Marc:That must have been fucking wild.
Guest:It was wild.
Guest:And I was such a bitch.
Guest:It's one of my things.
Guest:I look back and I'm like, how was I so lame?
Marc:Like what?
Marc:How?
Guest:Because I remember Rob came up to me.
Guest:He said, you know, Tom's been asking about you.
Guest:And I looked at him and I thought he was crazy hot.
Marc:Who, Tom or Rob?
Marc:Yeah, Tom.
Guest:I mean, Rob was pretty cute too.
Guest:But Tom was like, I was like, oh my God.
Guest:I think it was when he was doing Legend, his hair was long.
Marc:And this is before Cocktail.
Guest:Yeah, this is before Cocktail.
Guest:And so Tom came up to me.
Guest:And I remember, I don't know, I had some B in my ass because it was St.
Guest:Patrick's Day and no one was dressed in green.
Guest:And I was just obnoxious.
Guest:And so Tom started talking me up.
Guest:And finally I was like, I'm Gina.
Guest:He goes, yeah, I know who you are.
Guest:I'm like, really?
Guest:I like formal introductions.
Guest:And I'm like, you actor boys, you think... I mean, I just railed against actor boys thinking... And honestly, he couldn't have been nicer.
Guest:So I don't know.
Guest:I think I was so attracted to him.
Guest:I kind of was like in kindergarten all of a sudden.
Guest:And I just left.
Guest:I said, I've got to get out of here.
Guest:And I left.
Guest:And then the next time I saw him, he was at the audition.
Guest:He's like...
Guest:you were such a bitch.
Guest:I said, no, you were.
Guest:He goes, no, you were.
Guest:And the director's like, do you guys know each other?
Guest:Because we were really attracted to each other.
Marc:I mean, it was obvious.
Marc:So that's how you got the part?
Marc:Because you were arguing in the casting office?
Guest:No, then I did the audition and clearly it was genius.
Guest:And I got the part.
Guest:And when we got on the set, he had just gotten married.
Guest:But I mean.
Guest:To who?
Guest:To Mimi Rogers.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Which I was really disappointed because I definitely, we had a little, I could tell we had a little crush on each other.
Marc:Had some juice.
Yeah.
Guest:Every other scene is like, should we kiss in this scene?
Guest:Yeah, we should probably kiss in this scene.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good idea.
Marc:It's weird, right?
Marc:The kissing thing.
Guest:Yeah, we kissed.
Marc:We did.
Marc:But like, I'd never, I'm trying to, you were like, wow.
Marc:It was an acting kiss, right?
Marc:Like you have to, I mean, it's.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was an acting kid.
Marc:It wasn't acting because I would have used so much more time.
Marc:I'm so broken hearted.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, it was in the thing.
Marc:No, I enjoyed it.
Marc:I've never done acting like that with you and in the show in general.
Marc:And there was a couple of scenes where I had to kiss people, but I had to kiss you.
Marc:But like, you have to talk about it for a second.
Guest:I was kind of geeking out a little bit before I recall.
Guest:You were, you were like, I got a little shy.
Guest:I don't know why.
Marc:It was really interesting because you had to make the first move on me, and you were like, I don't do that.
Marc:I'm like, you're Gina Gershon.
Marc:I know.
Guest:I've seen your movies.
Guest:Do I make the first move on my movie?
Marc:Well, I mean, you definitely have a, there's a couple of films, I believe, where you were fairly sexually hungry.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I know, but I guess in our scene, there seemed to be more... It was a very vulnerable scene.
Guest:It was vulnerable, and it seemed like I genuinely liked you and like you.
Guest:Also, I felt like in the scene, if I came on, it would have been too obvious.
Guest:It's always better that the guy comes to you.
Marc:And it looks good, the scene.
Marc:Did it look good?
Marc:Yeah, because it was awkward.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like in that was the way it was supposed to be kind of.
Guest:See, I had in the back of my head too, I thought, oh, I'm going to turn this part into like a regular because I'm sure it's going to go.
Guest:So I'm going to come back as your girlfriend and leave.
Guest:Because honestly, like the husband guy, I mean, not him as the actor, but the whole thing was like, okay, fuck this.
Guest:My character should be with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I thought if it was more of a genuine thing, I wasn't so insane.
Guest:It just, you know, sometimes you just go with what you think.
Marc:It looks great.
Marc:That episode looks like it's one of the best ones, really.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:Tom Cruise.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm a better kisser.
Marc:I know you don't remember.
Marc:I think you are a better guy.
Guest:Honestly, but Tom and I really made out, and he went down on me in the show.
Guest:I mean, in cocktails.
Marc:Oh, I remember that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:Oh my God, this is the worst thing ever.
Marc:Like you were in a bed, and he kind of goes, you just see.
Marc:I vaguely remember that.
Guest:The worst thing ever.
Guest:No, this is what a gentleman he is.
Marc:I can't fucking believe you just really made out with Tom Cruise, and I get this acting makeout.
Marc:Sorry, it's okay.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Well, he was a little bit more aggressive.
Guest:You should have, like, become a little bit more aggressive.
Marc:All right.
Guest:We had good kissing, though.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, it was good.
Marc:It was sweet.
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Marc:Very sweet.
Marc:It kind of left you wanting more.
Guest:Yeah, definitely, yeah.
Guest:So that's good.
Guest:Tom, so I think our scene was supposed to be we're running around.
Guest:And I have to say, it's like, this is my first love scene ever on film.
Guest:And he was like, I don't want any, you know, he was so protective because, you know, I was supposed to be, like, naked from the waist up.
Guest:Although, he's like, I don't want anyone to see anything.
Guest:Although, it was okay that he did.
Guest:Clear the set.
Guest:Not clear this up, but my back was to the camera.
Guest:And so he was very, are you comfortable?
Guest:I mean, he couldn't have been nicer.
Guest:And I think the scene was we're supposed to be running around each other.
Guest:And I was like, this is kind of dumb, right?
Guest:Because he was dumb.
Guest:So we decided, oh, it's so typical to the girls going down on the guy.
Guest:I said, why don't you start, you know, under the covers?
Guest:Like, you know, like you're going down on me and then you pop up.
Guest:He's like, yeah, I love that idea.
Guest:And somehow at one point he started to tickle me.
Guest:I said, seriously, Tom, don't tickle me.
Guest:Like it's a really bad idea.
Guest:Like I am so, I had the big brother tickling thing.
Guest:So it's not fun.
Guest:It's torture.
Guest:And I get crazy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so of course, right before a take, he's between my legs and they say action.
Guest:I guess he thought it'd be funny to tickle me.
Guest:And I went, Oh,
Guest:And I need him right in the nose.
Guest:Like, I literally thought I broke his nose.
Guest:And he came up.
Guest:I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.
Guest:He said, no, you told me not to tickle you.
Guest:I mean, I didn't mean to.
Guest:It was just like literally a knee-jerk reaction.
Guest:And I thought, oh, my God.
Guest:Like, I just broke Tom Cruise's nose.
Guest:Like, I'm never going to work again.
Guest:But he couldn't have been nicer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he's a very focused guy.
Marc:I mean, outside of like the Scientology thing, it seems that he, like I always say about Tom Cruise, it's like whether or not he's a great actor, if you give him something to focus on, he's very good at that.
Marc:Like if you give him tools, climbing things, wheelchairs, like he's really- He's very committed and very focused.
Guest:Right, committed, yeah.
Guest:You know, I don't know.
Guest:I didn't know about the whole Scientology thing.
Guest:All I could say is Tom Cruise, John Travolta, two of the nicest actors I've ever worked with, like beyond nice.
Guest:I kept thinking, is Scientology making a nice actor?
Guest:What did you work with John in?
Guest:Face Off.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And he was so nice.
Guest:He gave me good food.
Guest:They'd come over to my trailer and we'd eat.
Guest:He always had good food in there.
Marc:We'd have nice espressos.
Marc:That was not that long ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:John Woo.
Guest:Mr. John Woo.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:I really like that movie.
Marc:I was liking a John Woo.
Marc:That was his big sort of American movie.
Marc:That was when Tarantino had made all those directors so popular and then Woo came over and did that movie.
Marc:Woo was amazing.
Marc:Wasn't it Nick Cage too?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, he's crazy, right?
Yeah.
Guest:he he went to beverly high he was one of my the guys i forgot yeah yeah i loved him when he was younger i still like him he's so i mean he's eccentric he's eccentric he's so good in the movie and he couldn't have been nicer to me either he's not scientology nice but like just i think he's always been good even like you know i remember watching him in rumblefish and like in in wild at heart he was fucking in moonstruck he's fucking genius
Guest:You know, the thing I like about him and I respect about him as an actor, he makes such broad choices.
Guest:It's either going to totally work or not, but they're his choices.
Marc:Raising Arizona is one of my favorite fucking movies.
Guest:Right?
Marc:Great movie.
Guest:Yeah, great movie.
Marc:All right, so we're never going to get to the cats.
Marc:So the two movies that have made you sort of a gay icon and everyone remembers are Showgirls and Bound.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, bound to me, that's one of those movies that everyone's like, you can't do this movie.
Guest:You just can't.
Guest:I'm like, why not?
Guest:They're like, because it's gay and it'll ruin your career.
Guest:And they're first time directors.
Guest:I'm like, guys, like these directors, they may be first time, but they're geniuses.
Guest:I'm telling you right now, they're geniuses.
Guest:Of course, they go on to make the matrix and all that.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:And Bound, the script was so brilliant.
Guest:And I'm like, so what?
Guest:I think I was really naive.
Guest:As an actor, I'm like, this is a great part.
Guest:I've never gotten to play this sort of role, especially right after Showgirls, which I knew in my gut was not going to be everything that people thought was going to be.
Guest:They're like, no, no, this is going to be huge.
Guest:I'm like, get me another movie now.
Guest:Like, seriously, I need to show that I actually am an actress.
Guest:And I said, oh, great.
Guest:I get to cut off my hair, cut off my nails, look like a guy.
Guest:I'm doing it.
Guest:I'm in.
Marc:Like Showgirls, what was the writer's name?
Guest:I could write a book on that.
Guest:I'm surprised no one's asking it.
Marc:What's his name?
Marc:Paul Verhoeven.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who's a great director, by the way.
Marc:Who wrote it, though?
Marc:Esther House?
Guest:Esther House.
Marc:Joe Esther House.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The buzz on that thing was like, it was so... Who was the lead again?
Guest:What was her name?
Guest:Elizabeth Berkley.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Do we even really, really want to go there?
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:We don't need to go there.
Marc:But it was a disaster from all sides.
Guest:You know, it's one of those things that I was excited because, you know, A, I'd been a dancer and B, like, I felt like I need something just gets me out there, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And when I read it, you know.
Marc:That's what you started as, a dancer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, the first movie, you know, I realized the first movie I ever did, you didn't see my face.
Guest:My mom had to drive me to the set.
Guest:I was one of the dancing legs in Beatlemania.
Marc:Just throwing it out there.
Guest:I just remembered.
Marc:So when you were at NYU, you took dance?
Guest:No, I had to stop dancing in high school because, especially Beverly, they're like, you could either dance or you could do plays.
Guest:Although I was doing musicals, so I was doing both.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But at school, you know, back in the old days, you couldn't really sing and dance and do acting.
Guest:And I wanted to be a quote unquote serious actress.
Guest:So I kind of gave up dancing and singing for a while because I wanted to really study.
Guest:And it's too bad because today you could do everything.
Marc:Yeah, you could probably still do everything.
Guest:I can, of course, but I'm saying, as you were starting, I, you know, listen, all my, I could have been in Purple Rain, do you know what I mean?
Guest:I could have, like, I went to Prince's thing, and I remember thinking, I don't want to do that.
Guest:All of my, I mean, if I looked at the universe, what it was telling me, I should have been doing music the whole time, but that's a whole other story, like, opportunities, but I was like, no, I want to be a series actor, a series actor, so.
Marc:So, what did you, like, do you have regrets?
Marc:I mean, there are things that you turn down that you're like, what the fuck was I thinking?
Guest:You know what, I used to not believe in regrets, and lately I feel like I start to think, you know what, maybe I screwed that up.
Marc:We can't dwell on them.
Marc:It's that woulda, shoulda, coulda bullshit.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like you can't beat yourself up about it, but I mean, there's nothing wrong with being disappointed or having them.
Guest:You know, I don't, I mean, for better or worse, my memory is so bad, I can't remember what I have regrets over.
Guest:I mean, every now and then something occurs to me, and I think, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't have been so hasty with that.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Like the other day I was thinking like now I'm trying to get a show going and I was doing the only real series I ever did was David Kelly's Snoops.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember not, it wasn't the right time for me to be doing something.
Guest:He kind of talked me into it.
Guest:And he gave me whatever part I wanted.
Guest:And he was writing anything.
Guest:And although he was still doing three other shows at the same time.
Guest:And at the time I'm like, David, I just don't feel like doing this right now.
Guest:And let's do this.
Guest:And looking back and he's like, well, we could do it again.
Guest:You could be a producer.
Guest:You could do this.
Guest:And I was like, I just want to go to New York and I want to do movies.
Guest:And it was really stupid of me.
Guest:I should have stuck it out.
Guest:And worked.
Guest:And worked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but, you know, it was TV.
Guest:It wasn't what I wanted to do at that moment.
Guest:I was just in a bad state of mind.
Guest:And looking back now, knowing, I mean, David Kelly is a great writer, like trying to get good writers and create a show.
Guest:It's so much harder than I would have thought.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I look back thinking, where was like my representative saying like, no, no, you shouldn't do this.
Guest:You should keep going.
Guest:But I've always kind of heard better or worse.
Marc:Fuck you.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:It's my career.
Marc:You can throw someone under the bus like that, you know, because you want representatives to parent you somehow.
Marc:And then when they do, you're like, no.
Guest:Well, listen, Bound, they hands down said you cannot do this movie.
Guest:It will ruin your career.
Guest:And I said, well, guess what?
Guest:I'm leaving you and I'm doing the movie.
Guest:And I laughed and I said, you'll get the commission.
Guest:I'm going.
Marc:I think that role got you the most attention you've gotten.
Guest:You think?
Guest:God, that's so sad.
Guest:It was a long time ago.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:But I mean, at that time, I mean, it was not, it didn't turn out to be, I mean, Showgirls was a disaster, but I mean, Bound, people are like, holy fuck, who's that?
Guest:Yeah, it was a really good movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Listen, you know, at the end of the day- You work a lot.
Marc:I mean, I'm looking at your thing.
Marc:You've worked a lot.
Guest:I've been a working actress.
Guest:I've been very fortunate.
Marc:And you're very good.
Marc:It was a pleasure to work with you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I liked working with you too.
Marc:Yeah, it was very natural and it looks good.
Marc:I wouldn't call myself an actor, but when I'm working with someone- You were great.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Guest:And I think the show's going to be great.
Marc:When I work with somebody who knows what they're doing, it's a lot easier for me.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because I'm very good at engaging because I have no boundaries and I just want to be connected.
Guest:Well, you're also in the moment.
Guest:You have the thing that you need.
Marc:Right, now I can do that.
Guest:And you're intelligent.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Blah, blah, blah.
Guest:No, I thought you were very good.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Was I the best actress you worked with on your show?
Guest:The best.
Guest:The best.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:So we've got, I want to talk about the book.
Marc:And I know that you have to go shoot, the Levy Project.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you walked in.
Marc:We are cat people.
Marc:We're unashamed cat people.
Guest:unashamed yeah well I mean it's better when women are unashamed cat people it's a little more acceptable but you know what can I tell you something I kind of resent the whole cat person everyone's like oh you're a cat lady and it's like what does that mean I have one cat you know what it means no I think a cat lady I think ever since like Grey Gardens you think oh great cat ladies you know it's like I don't have
Guest:10 million cats running around and not eating cat food.
Marc:Did you see that?
Marc:Do you see the action figure I have up there?
Marc:The crazy cat lady action figure?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Where'd you get that?
Marc:I think someone sent it to me at some point.
Guest:Because you think you're a crazy cat lady?
Marc:My career is built.
Marc:My career and its manifestation now, whatever incarnation I'm in, was really built on sadness and cats.
Guest:We're like two peas in a pod.
Guest:Sadness and Cat.
Guest:That's what I should have just named my album when I did it.
Guest:Sadness and Cat.
Guest:You sang?
Guest:Well, see, I made a record first called In Search of Cleo, which had nothing to do with Cat, but I only told the Cleo story.
Marc:It's your cat.
Guest:Which is my cat, because you keep mentioning the book.
Guest:The book only came about because I made a record, right?
Guest:And I was going to call it Midnight Girl.
Guest:But then at the last second when I was going to perform it, I was presented with a space.
Guest:And I was like, oh my God, this space is so incredible.
Guest:I should have dancing girls.
Guest:I should have flying ukuleles.
Guest:And then I thought, oh, I know.
Guest:I'll just marry the Cleo story, which is ultimately about what people do in order to discover love.
Guest:But my record, when I did it, it was all about fucked up relationships and
Marc:Looking for love.
Marc:Was this like a choice to be a cabaret singer?
Marc:What drove you to the music direction?
Guest:I've always loved music, and I kind of got away from it.
Guest:And when a couple years ago, Sam Mendes asked me to go and do cabaret on Broadway.
Guest:And so once I started singing, I was like, wow, you really sing.
Guest:And I thought, I forgot I love singing.
Guest:I used to only be a song and dance gal.
Guest:That's all I did.
Guest:And then from there, I ended up doing a movie called Pray for Rock and Roll, which I really love.
Guest:I play this punk rocker.
Guest:And from that, in order to sell the movie, I went on the road.
Guest:And I had Girls Against Boys as my band.
Guest:And then I started writing tons of music and playing guitar and singing again.
Guest:I thought, I forgot how much I love this.
Guest:And then people started offering me, saying, why don't you come sing here, this...
Guest:And from there, I thought, you know, I was doing all this rock and roll.
Guest:I thought, this isn't really the music that's in my head.
Guest:I had more of like a country blues, almost jazzy sort of thing in my head.
Guest:And I thought, I'm just going to take the next year.
Guest:Because then all of a sudden, all this music was in my head, and I had to get it out.
Guest:And so I started writing like crazy.
Guest:And so I wrote, made this album.
Guest:And then when I was to perform it, I decided to marry the cat story because thematically it was the same.
Guest:And then from there, and I ended up calling the album In Search of Cleo just because I thought, oh, well, I'll just call that.
Guest:And then when the people see the show, I just called it the whole thing, which now I'm kind of sad.
Marc:There's a regret.
Guest:What's the book called?
Guest:In Search of Cleo, How I Found My Pussy and Lost My Mind.
Guest:But I wish I hadn't called the album that.
Guest:It's really about how I found my pussy and lost my mind.
Guest:I still haven't found my mind, but I have my pussy.
Marc:Oh, thank God.
Marc:We were all concerned that you were gonna never find your pussy.
Guest:No, I found it in so many ways.
Guest:But no, Cleo's with me now.
Marc:How old is this cat?
Marc:15.
Marc:That's amazing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He's so sweet.
Guest:Although now I'm worried because I told you he has kitty AIDS.
Marc:Yeah, but they can live with that.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I know.
Marc:If you can care for the cat, it'll be fine.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I mean, you should have told him to protect himself.
Guest:Listen, I know, right?
Guest:It's like I didn't think he was going to be gone for that long the whole time I found him.
Marc:What exactly happened?
Yeah.
Guest:What exactly happened is I went away and I had a quote unquote assistant who I thought was responsible.
Guest:And when I came back, I was like, where's my cat?
Guest:But yeah, the whole thing starts.
Guest:I had just broken up with a very intense relationship of eight years.
Guest:Who was that with?
Guest:The guy, this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can read about that in the book.
Guest:Actually, I don't even name him there.
Guest:Just the guy I was with for eight years.
Marc:That's a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You never got married.
Guest:No, I thought I was gonna marry this guy though.
Marc:And how did it hit the wall?
Guest:I don't know, he just kind of went a little bit loopy and then we ended up breaking up.
Guest:It was just a strange thing.
Marc:What kind of loopy?
Marc:Fucking other people loopy, drug loopy, crazy loopy?
Guest:No, I think he was going through some sort of crisis.
Guest:but I was broken hearted and then my uncle died and Ted Demme who I was living with there died all these people died so when the whole book started you went out with Ted Demme or were you just friends no no it was friends I was living with Teddy and Amanda because when I broke up oh you were a mess with the boyfriend I was a mess they were like come and live with us right yeah and so it was just a series of
Guest:you know, death and breakups.
Guest:And so I was very vulnerable.
Guest:And when I came home and my cat, I said, where's Cleo?
Guest:And she was like, well, I'm like, what?
Guest:And she had taken the cat, wrapped him up in a blanket and taken him to a dog groomers before I got home.
Marc:And of course- What to get him to surprise you?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:She's insane.
Guest:To surprise me.
Guest:And then of course, you know, he jumped out as soon as the car opened up because he's like, this chick's insane.
Guest:I'm getting out of here.
Guest:And then he has been missing for three days.
Guest:And so the book is literally about my search for the two and a half months through the streets of L.A.
Guest:looking for this cat and everything I went through and the weird situations that happened.
Guest:And as I was telling these stories in between music, you know, as I was doing my songs, everyone kept saying, there's no way this is a true story.
Guest:I'm like, I swear to God, I'm not making this up.
Marc:Well, let's go like quickly the beats.
Marc:I mean, so, okay.
Guest:There's so many beats.
Marc:No, but I mean the impactful ones.
Marc:I'm not telling you to tell the whole book.
Guest:I'm going to do that whenever I'm like, okay, this topic's over.
Marc:How do you jam on a juice harp?
Guest:It's not a, ooh, this isn't even a good one.
Marc:I've tried that a few times and you can hurt your teeth.
Marc:It's making me frightened for you hurting your teeth.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:On the audio, I actually play the juice harp with Christian McBride playing bass.
Guest:It's pretty funny.
Marc:It's such an odd instrument to sort of take as your instrument.
Guest:Well, I called it the juice harp.
Guest:Have you jammed with some... It was the chosen instrument.
Marc:Have you jammed with some heavy dudes?
Guest:Herbie Hancock produced... You played juice harp with Herbie Hancock?
Guest:Yeah, and on Paul Simon's track on his album.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Oh God, not Reflections, you know.
Guest:It was nominated for a growing one.
Marc:Graceland?
Marc:No, or something of the saints?
Guest:No, no, no, it was Herbie Hancock produced it, and Paul Simon, who was one of the tracks, all these different people.
Marc:Oh, okay, okay.
Guest:It's gonna come to me, I gotta say.
Marc:And you played G's harp on that?
Guest:I played Jesus Harp on that.
Guest:I played with the Scissor Sisters on their record.
Guest:The person I jam with the most, who's a genius, is Christian McBride.
Guest:Do you know the stand-up bass guy in jazz?
Guest:He's amazing.
Guest:And I played once with, my favorite jam was Christian and Ahmed from Roots at a blues festival.
Guest:Yeah, I played.
Marc:And you just go out on stage with your Jesus Harp and...
Guest:I go out and we just jam.
Guest:Jews in the blues, man.
Marc:All right, so wait, Cleo, come on, man.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Give me a little taste.
Marc:What's the catharsis?
Guest:You know, on the journey, I was, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Guest:So, and I also, I'm a little bit secretly obsessed with cults.
Guest:So any- Which ones?
Guest:Any of them.
Guest:Given like any sort of cult.
Marc:In what way?
Guest:Just because I like to go and explore them and see, you know, people just want to believe in things.
Marc:But you never did the Scientology thing.
Guest:I went there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You did go there.
Guest:I did go there.
Marc:Not for Cleo, but at another time when you were younger.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:uh when i was older not for cleo you give me and i'll go visit any cult for you know and that's more of a religion cult but no i went there because i had a few friends of mine who were involved they said you want to go and do a you know a thing i said yep and i went and when they got to the point where you couldn't when they told me ambien was a drug and i couldn't do it and you couldn't go to a shrink i was like i'm a jew that's why probably more jews aren't in scientology so i knew it wasn't for me
Marc:You can't take my ambient and my shrink away.
Marc:That's not going to happen.
Marc:I was like, you know what?
Marc:This is where I draw the line.
Marc:But have you ever been involved in one?
Marc:I mean, like actively, like this is working for me?
Guest:No, I try to be.
Guest:I go with an open mind and I'm always like so cynical thinking, oh brother, look at these people who believe this shit.
Guest:I mean, in the book I talk about, there was a guy who had, you know, the lost city of Atlantis and people would go with their crystals and pay all this money.
Guest:And I went and of course I had to leave because I thought, okay, I'm going to take the mic and be like,
Guest:Yes, I'm in a church and there's a priest.
Guest:And I have to stop myself because I'm really interested in how people just want to believe in something.
Guest:And I went to this other guy.
Marc:But do you need to believe in something or are you more curious about, do you go going like, let me see what these people are like?
Guest:I want to believe in something.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:And I respect people who are really into some sort of religion and it really works for them.
Guest:A part of me is jealous.
Guest:I wish I believed in something that much, but I don't.
Marc:But you're okay with it?
Marc:Are you still, is there a desperation?
Marc:Do you feel lost?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I think I'm more, I'm not a religious person.
Guest:I certainly think I'm a spiritual person.
Guest:I think that there's a lot of things, a lot of things that happen in the book that, you know, listen, I'm as cynical as anyone else, but they actually happened.
Guest:And it made me believe that there's other things going on that we just don't understand.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Just tell me.
Guest:There was one of the nights that I went out, and you know, LA's scary alone at 4.30 in the morning.
Guest:There's no one on the street.
Marc:And you're out of your mind and sad and brokenhearted and missing a cat.
Guest:Yeah, and maybe have some Ambien, so I'm already spacing out to- So you're sleepwalking.
Guest:Sleepwalking, looking for a cat, crying, whatever.
Guest:And all of a sudden, this big black man came.
Guest:I saw this light at the end of the road.
Marc:Where was this in LA?
Guest:Like near Sixth and Sweetser in the flats.
Guest:Thank God else Clea would be eaten.
Guest:And so I went up toward the light and there was this woman in the passenger seat who just filed her nails like back and forth and back and forth with all these jerry-
Guest:A car.
Guest:But down the road, it looked like this beacon of light kind of thing.
Guest:And out of the blackness, out of the darkness, came this man, huge man, big.
Guest:And he's like sweaty and scary.
Guest:And I said, oh.
Guest:And he said, he goes, he said, what's going on?
Guest:I said, uh.
Guest:I can't find my cat.
Guest:And he's like, oh, are you the kid?
Guest:Are you the girl who's lost her kitty?
Guest:And his voice was so sweet.
Guest:And he was, I literally burst into tears.
Guest:He's like, there, there now.
Guest:And he engulfed me in his arms.
Guest:And he became my guy on the street.
Guest:Every time I was out on the street, I'd see him.
Guest:He's like, how you doing?
Guest:And he'd call me up.
Guest:He's like, I think I see a kitty.
Guest:Arthur.
Marc:You gave him your number.
Guest:I gave him my number, yeah.
Guest:From Marie, I talk about this in the book a lot, how I just trust black people more than any other people in the world.
Guest:But it wasn't that, he was just so incredible and he was always there for me.
Guest:I'd be crying, he's like, we're gonna find your cat sugar, we're gonna find it.
Guest:He was there with me the entire time.
Guest:It wasn't in my neighborhood.
Marc:It was where the cat jumped out.
Marc:Where the cat was.
Guest:But Arthur was always around.
Guest:And he was helping me.
Guest:And he just made me feel not so alone.
Guest:And he made me feel safe and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:At the end of the day, I went to go find him.
Guest:And I saw him all the time.
Guest:Arthur.
Guest:Arthur.
Guest:And I see this girl throwing her magazine.
Guest:The newspaper said, like, hey, where's Arthur?
Guest:She doesn't answer me.
Guest:I'm like, hey, I'm looking for Arthur.
Guest:She's like, who are you talking about?
Guest:I said, Arthur, he's the paper man on this beat.
Guest:She goes, I've never heard of no author.
Guest:I've been on this beat for two years.
Guest:I don't know who you're talking about.
Guest:And I never heard from him again, and I never saw him again, and I could never find him.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:It's pretty weird.
Guest:I mean, I didn't make that stuff up.
Marc:Are you sure?
Guest:Well, I'm pretty sure, yeah.
Marc:I'm not saying that you didn't fictionalize it, but were you hallucinating?
Guest:I think at times I might have been hallucinating a little bit, but I definitely did not.
Guest:I mean, he was there throughout the whole time, and he was real.
Guest:And the lady in this.
Guest:And so I just think weird.
Guest:Truth is stranger than fiction.
Guest:I think that's what I came away with the book realizing.
Guest:And weird things happen.
Guest:I mean, the best thing that happens and strange thing that happens, you can't.
Guest:explain things sometimes, but it doesn't make them any less real.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:So you became sort of, you didn't go off the edge, right?
Marc:Well, it sounds like you went off the edge, but you came back from the edge.
Guest:I mean, when I was talking to the guy from jail, and like, I thought, that's when my friends started really worrying, going like, you cannot talk to this guy in jail about your cat, because then he wanted me to help him get out.
Marc:What do you mean a guy in jail?
Guest:That was John from jail.
Guest:That's a whole other section, because he called, and he said, I read your ads, and like,
Marc:You put ads where?
Guest:Everywhere.
Guest:Classified.
Guest:I had posters up.
Guest:I talk on the radio about my cat.
Guest:Honestly, I was taking urine in Tropicana bottles and leaving trails through neighbor's backyards so he could smell, you know, because that's what Sonia, the animal psychic.
Guest:Your urine?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because Sonia, the animal psychic, told me to do that.
Guest:So I did it.
Guest:I would do anything and everything.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So this is like, there's love and there's also a sort of psychotic break.
Guest:I think I was having a little bit of a psychotic break at that moment.
Marc:I think that when you're walking around neighborhoods pouring your pee around, there's love there.
Guest:I didn't make it up.
Guest:Sonia told me, she goes, darling, you must pee in a camp and put it through the grass and get down on the ground and see the world through Cleo's eyes and he'll smell you.
Guest:I mean, think about it.
Guest:He could smell you and leave the trail.
Guest:You better start doing that.
Guest:Where's your cat still missing?
Marc:Yeah, he's gone.
Guest:He's been missing a long time.
Marc:A couple months.
Guest:Have you gone out and looked, looked, looked, looked?
Marc:Yeah, I've looked around.
Guest:Have you put up posters?
Marc:A few.
Marc:I mean, there's like this neighborhood.
Marc:I am in the hills, number one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's like several missing cat posters on poles.
Marc:I mean, the best thing that could be happening with him is that someone took him in.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So we recently, I checked the shelters like a week ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And either he got eaten by coyotes or someone's taking care of him.
Marc:I mean, all it takes is wet food for a relationship to be over.
Guest:Right, but that's why I think, you know, I also sent out postcards like within a three-mile radius of like, have you seen a cat?
Guest:Just so they can call up.
Marc:But did any of those actions that you took lead to the cat return?
Guest:I think we don't, I think ultimately probably all of them did maybe.
Marc:No, but I mean on a practical level, not on a mystical level.
Marc:Did the posters work?
Guest:I mean, did... Yes, because the final person who called me, who was like the 200th person who called me, said, I think I've got your cat.
Guest:You know, I mean, she wouldn't have had my number unless she had seen a poster or read an ad.
Guest:I mean, I put it out there.
Marc:But there's cats around here that kind of make the rounds every couple weeks, some of them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And he hasn't done that.
Marc:So he's either in someone's home being cared for or he's dead.
Marc:And I have to live with that.
Marc:And if they're caring for him, the reason he lived outside to begin with was he peed on everything or I wouldn't have put him out.
Marc:I don't like having outdoor cats.
Guest:So he was pissed off at you.
Guest:So he probably went to go find another house.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that is not as heartbreaking as the coyote thing.
Marc:Like it does bother me that he might be out somewhere.
Marc:But like in my mind, he'll start peeing all over their house and they're going to put him out and he'll come back or end up in a shelter.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like I haven't gone crazy about it because I grew up with a lot of animals and I love the guy.
Guest:Well, he was a feral guy to begin with, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, he, you know, we got him in a shelter years ago and he was feral in the shelter and he lived in the house for a long time, but it just became obvious.
Marc:It took us a long time to realize that he was peeing all over the, but he's been outside.
Guest:Did he have a kidney infection though?
Marc:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:He was just pissed off?
Marc:He's been outside for like five or six years.
Marc:But like anytime he'd come in, like within five minutes, you'd just see him back up against something and just get ready to unload on it.
Marc:And I was like, that's why he can't.
Marc:I can't, you can't, because it's one thing to have a little pee.
Guest:Well, that's kind of hostile too.
Guest:That's like, really?
Marc:Well, on everything, in luggage, on shoes, where I ate.
Guest:I know, he was mad.
Guest:That's an angry cat.
Guest:He was pissed off at you.
Guest:Right, else he would have done that.
Guest:So I understand why you put him outside.
Marc:But like he was okay out here, you know, and he seemed to do okay with the skunks and the possums and the other cats.
Marc:But then this other cat, I can't tell this story again.
Marc:This is your time.
Guest:Well, I know, but I'm sorry that, I mean, you could talk to, I don't know if Sonia the animal psychic is still in business.
Marc:I'm not going to crawl around with my pee.
Marc:It's just not going to happen.
Marc:I'm going to let him go before I do that.
Guest:Well, then that's okay.
Guest:I wasn't willing to let Cleo go.
Guest:At some point,
Guest:I thought, you know what?
Guest:I could tell he wasn't dead because I'm really connected to this cat and I would have felt it.
Guest:And I thought, you know what, at this point, hopefully he's just with someone else.
Guest:They're giving him tuna.
Guest:I had all these weird fantasies about it.
Guest:And the second I really, really let it go, of course, that's when I got the call, which is like another lesson in life.
Guest:As soon as you really let go of things, they come flying at you.
Marc:Yeah, I know that to be true.
Guest:That's a true.
Guest:That's a truism.
Marc:Well, you got to go.
Marc:You got to go.
Marc:You got to go make a movie.
Guest:Has it been an hour?
Guest:It's just flown by.
Marc:It's 1.30.
Guest:Are you serious?
Guest:I really have to go.
Guest:Thank you, Gina.
Marc:I have a costume fitting.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Nice.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How was that?
Marc:Didn't know that about her, did you?
Marc:And she jammed.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Did you know that?
Marc:She knows she could do that.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, thank you, Gina.
Marc:Lovely chat.
Marc:And thank you, people, for listening.
Marc:And please go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Check the calendar.
Marc:see where I'm playing.
Marc:I'll probably be playing at a place near you.
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Marc:Got it all.
Marc:What am I?
Marc:Some sort of barker?
Marc:Am I a barker?
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:Boomer lives.