Episode 364 - Mike White
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck me's what the fucking a's what the fucking stuffs what the fuckaholics and what the fucking adians all right that's good that's good how are you mark maron here
Marc:I'm going to change my tone a little bit.
Marc:A couple of things out of the gate that I'd like to say, which is that Mark Maron, me, and Tom Sharpling from The Best Show on WFMU are together for The Mark and Tom Show.
Marc:There are now three episodes of The Mark and Tom Show up there on iTunes if you've missed out.
Marc:One of them was originally available as a premium that was posted in the feed, but now all three are
Marc:are available on iTunes if you'd like to go search for Mark and Tom.
Marc:Very fun.
Marc:And we like talking to each other.
Marc:And we have a kindred spirit and a connection.
Marc:And we are people that live on the microphone.
Marc:So perhaps you'd enjoy that.
Marc:Good stuff.
Marc:Mike White is on the show today, my friends.
Marc:The Mike White.
Marc:He's a genius.
Marc:And I love his new show, Enlightened.
Marc:I don't know if you're watching it.
Marc:I haven't talked about it before.
Marc:I came into it late, but then I stuffed them all in my head.
Marc:And I think it's spectacular.
Marc:And I think that there's a sensitivity to it, a vulnerability to it, a discomfort to it, and a narrative that is just incredibly real.
Marc:and provocative and a little disturbing, but just beautiful.
Marc:It's like poetry, man.
Marc:Enlightened on HBO is like fucking poetry.
Marc:It's got guts to it.
Marc:It's not all jammed up with sex and alpha male bullshit or kids.
Marc:The characters, Laura Dern and Mike White, both play incredibly deep but broken characters in a way that has a real authenticity to it, and I just love this show, and I was thrilled.
Marc:Mike could come on.
Marc:It was sort of one of those situations where it was like, are we going to be able to make this happen?
Marc:When's it going to happen?
Marc:Then it was one of those things where it's like, he can do it in an hour.
Marc:And he came over.
Marc:He was feeling a little under the weather.
Marc:I'd never met him before.
Marc:And what an intense...
Marc:uh person he is and what a a creative and slightly tortured person he is and and man he just he did some uh he did some talking and uh we'll get into that in just a second i uh i want to reach out to people uh about my upcoming shows you know i'm going to be in uh
Marc:I'm going to be in Portland on the 28th.
Marc:That's Thursday.
Marc:And I will be at the Aladdin Theater if you'd like to come out.
Marc:I will be in Seattle at the Neptune on March 1st.
Marc:If you'd like to do that, please go to WTFPod.com and check the calendar for the, you know, we've got rescheduled Boston dates.
Marc:I've got San Francisco date coming up.
Marc:I've got Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Marc:Milwaukee is coming up.
Marc:Good stuff coming up.
Marc:That's the second time I've said good stuff.
Marc:What is going on with me today, man?
Marc:Goddamn.
Marc:I'm excited.
Marc:I woke up excited.
Marc:Something shook loose in my brain.
Marc:For some reason, I've had a breakthrough on guitar.
Marc:And then this morning or yesterday, I was like, you know what, dude, you're 49 years old.
Marc:What are you dicking around for?
Marc:Are you going to get married again?
Marc:Step up.
Marc:You're going to get married.
Marc:Go buy the ring.
Marc:Get married.
Marc:What do you got to lose?
Marc:You know, except, you know, all your money and your heart again.
Marc:But what else am I going to do?
Marc:What am I going to be?
Marc:One of these 49 year old dudes that just sort of like, no, no, no.
Marc:I'm just going to kind of hang out.
Marc:I mean, something has to have some definition, some purpose.
Marc:You got to act on your feelings.
Marc:You got to follow through with your desires.
Marc:You can't be afraid.
Marc:Of course, I have a reason to be gun shy.
Marc:I've been through some shit, but who hasn't?
Marc:Let's do it, man.
Marc:Let's get this ring.
Marc:Let's get this baby going.
Marc:Let's get let's go buy a house.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:What is the worst that can happen?
Marc:Well, everything, everything is obviously the worst that can happen.
Marc:Also, heads up.
Marc:I'm going to need your help on Thursday.
Marc:That's all I'm going to tell you.
Marc:We're going to get a little political, but nonpartisan political.
Marc:But the podcasting community.
Marc:Needs your help.
Marc:And I'm going to reach out to you on Thursday.
Marc:That's a little bit of a tease.
Marc:So you'll be like, what does he fucking need?
Marc:It's not money.
Marc:But there's shit going down for a lot of people in a lot of different areas of business and expression that needs to be addressed.
Marc:And we're going to have some action for you to take on Thursday.
Marc:So let that be something that you look forward to.
Marc:Let me tell you the charity I gave to.
Marc:Can I?
Marc:Can I do that?
Marc:I can.
Marc:You know, with the Boomer Lives T-shirts, I decided that I would take a dollar from each shirt, you know, for a certain amount of time to to donate to a charity.
Marc:And we found the charity, Tony La Russa's Animal Rescue Foundation.
Marc:Seems like they do great stuff.
Marc:So I'm proud to say, with your help, because some of your money went to this, I made a $700 donation.
Marc:And they asked you, like, what do you want to use for?
Marc:Just anything or education?
Marc:And I scrolled down to saving animal lives.
Marc:So that happened.
Marc:And thank you for buying the shirts.
Marc:I hope you like the shirts.
Marc:And I feel good about this charity.
Marc:And I feel good about helping.
Marc:pow look out just shit my pants just coffee.coop available at wtfpod.com if you buy the wtf blod if you buy the wtf pod blend i get a couple shekels on the back end you dig what i'm saying
Marc:So a lot of you know that the name Robert Schimmel has been mentioned on this show quite a bit, and he was actually, in my mind, one of the best stand-up comics that has ever lived, really, and we lost him a little while ago in a car accident.
Marc:And his brother, Jeff Schimel, is going to produce and build a documentary about Robert.
Marc:And Jeff is a comedy writer in his own right.
Marc:He's worked with Rodney Dangerfield, Jamie Foxx, Jim Carrey, Bill Cosby, I believe, to name a few.
Marc:And he's on the phone with me now to talk about this project.
Marc:How are you, Jeff?
Guest:Good, Mark.
Guest:How are you?
Marc:I'm good, man.
Marc:I miss your brother.
Marc:I love that guy.
Marc:He was like one of the funniest guys that ever fucking lived.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:That's why I want to do the documentary, because...
Guest:You know, millions of people saw him on HBO and Showtime and in clubs around the country, but they never really got to know the real guy, and that's who I want to introduce.
Marc:And also, I think on some level, in the bigger picture, he's a little bit underrated, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for being just a real, working, inspired, honest stand-up man.
Guest:Yeah, I agree.
Guest:You know, he had a 32-year career doing stand-up, but really he was just a funny guy from the first day that I can remember, and that's why I tell people about the documentary, before anybody else ever saw him perform, I was his first and his best audience, because he always made me laugh, and
Guest:I think he was funnier offstage than he was onstage.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's something that's said about some of the greatest comics ever.
Marc:And usually it's their best friends or their family that gets to see that.
Marc:I can't even imagine what it was like growing up with Robert Schimmel as a brother.
Marc:That must have just been a never-ending, ball-busting experience.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:I mean, you know, we weren't allowed to, if you can imagine this, we weren't allowed to talk at the dinner table.
Guest:Only my mom and dad could talk.
Guest:So my brother and my sister and I would sit there and I was the baby in the family.
Guest:And of course, he would always say something that would make me laugh.
Guest:And my mom couldn't reach him.
Guest:So I would get smacked.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Taking the hit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, when we were growing up, I was probably a teenager.
Guest:He was older.
Guest:He was seven years older.
Guest:And he said, listen, if I ever end up on life support, I want you to sneak into the hospital and pull the plug.
Guest:Just kill me, because I don't want to live like that.
Guest:I don't want to be a vegetable.
Guest:He said, and don't worry, if you're in a coma, I'll take you out.
Guest:So I said, don't kill me.
Guest:I didn't agree to this deal.
Guest:I'm not interested.
Guest:It never pulled the plug on me.
Guest:And then flash forward several years, and there I am standing at his bedside, and he's in a coma, and he's not showing any signs of ever coming out of it.
Guest:And the family was debating whether or not to pull the plug.
Guest:I mean, it happened pretty much the way he was joking about it happening.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:And what was the process?
Marc:Did you say anything to him?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I stood in the room.
Guest:We all took turns.
Guest:My sister and I were usually in there together.
Guest:We would scream at him and plead with him to please wake up.
Guest:I was using my phone to play music.
Guest:his HBO special and other clips from YouTube into his ear to see if he would respond to his own voice or the applause.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And he didn't.
Guest:You know, I begged him on the last day, I mean, literally just probably a few minutes before they started to unhook him,
Guest:I was saying, Bob, look, you know, we all feel bad.
Guest:We're crying.
Guest:You achieved your goal.
Guest:Now wake up and let's go, because this is really serious.
Guest:They're going to unhook you if you don't snap out of it.
Guest:So, you know, enough is enough, but you never move.
Marc:This joke has gone far enough, Bob.
Guest:Yeah, and that was him.
Guest:I mean, you wouldn't believe the stuff that he would do.
Guest:Like I said, he was funnier offstage to me, you know, and...
Guest:People need to see who he really was.
Guest:You know, as sick as he was,
Guest:People don't know that whenever he would go into a town to perform, he would go to the store, he would buy some CD players and some comedy CDs, usually George Carlin, Richard Pryor, people like that, and he would go to infusion centers where people were getting their chemo, and he would sit with them, and he would give them comedy to listen to, and he would say, just laugh your way through this.
Guest:You're going to be okay.
Marc:That's amazing.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:Yeah, you never hear about that.
Marc:I think that's great.
Marc:And, you know, I really wish you all the success with this project.
Marc:And I know we need to rally some support around it so we can get it funded and make it happen.
Marc:Because, I mean, Bob deserves this.
Marc:You know, he's a big hearted guy and really just fucking hysterical.
Marc:So what's the process?
Marc:How can people help, Jeff?
Guest:Okay, well, all they need to do is go to kickstarter.com.
Guest:If they just search for the name Schimmel, it'll come right up.
Marc:That's S-C-H-I-M-M-E-L.
Guest:Yes, and if they do that on Kickstarter, they're going to see a short video to explain it.
Guest:The project is called Leave Them Laughing, and they can make a contribution.
Guest:But the great thing is, on Kickstarter, if you don't reach 100% of your goal, they don't process any of the credit card contributions to the project.
Guest:So people shouldn't worry, oh, my God, I'm contributing this, and I, you know...
Guest:How is this going to work?
Guest:If we don't hit 100%, they don't get charged, but we're trying really hard to do everything we can to make this project happen.
Marc:Well, I'm looking forward to it because, honestly, and this is true, he's one of the guys I go back to.
Marc:In your life, there are certain comics...
Marc:That, you know, sometimes comedy is very it's very fleeting.
Marc:And, you know, and once you hear it a couple of times, that's the end of it.
Marc:But but always with Bob, I can go back and laugh every time.
Marc:There's only a couple of people I can do that with Sam Kenison's first record, you know, any of your brother's stuff.
Marc:And I just think it was a great, you know, a great loss to comedy.
Marc:And I'm thrilled to to, you know, to see this film, because, like, I met Bob in New York once and we were on a show together, a television project that never went anywhere.
Marc:And he had told me that he spent time opening for Jackie Vernon.
Marc:which i which i didn't know and jackie vernon was one of the guys that i saw when i was a kid and i thought it was hilarious and bob had spent all this time opening for jackie vernon and he said i'll send i'll send you a tape of uh jackie in a lounge you know that i one of the nights i work with him and you know and he followed through you know he sent me this cassette tape and it was it was spectacular he was a sweet guy and he and and also that shows that like you know he really trained with the greats i mean he he was a straight-up stand-up uh you know very personal very tight
Marc:And, you know, and you could tell he just paid his dues and he respected the form.
Marc:And, you know, he was just he was just one of the best, man.
Marc:And I wish you all the best with this project.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Guest:I really appreciate it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good talking to you, man.
Guest:OK, you too.
Guest:Take care.
Marc:So if you want to get involved with that, go to that Kickstarter and kick in.
Marc:I'd like to see a documentary on Robert Schimmel.
Marc:Truly one of my favorite comics.
Marc:And he's missed.
Marc:So now let's talk to Mike White.
Marc:And again, enlightened.
Marc:You know, I don't like to say this, but in this way, but this is a great show.
Marc:And I don't know why people aren't gravitating to it, gravitating to it as much as as it deserves.
Marc:And I think it's because it's a little it's a little disconcerting in terms of what it will reveal to you about you.
Marc:This is a type of character that Laura Dern plays that we all know.
Marc:And, you know, we all might have a little bit of and it's a you know, it's a show that that brings you through a lot of emotions.
Marc:If you're alive, if you're sensitive and if you're, you know, discontent in any way or have issues, it's a phenomenal show.
Marc:And I would just go on demand and just watch them all the way through.
Marc:Luke Wilson is great.
Marc:Laura Dern's mom is in it.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:It's a great show.
Marc:And let's talk to Mike White about it.
Marc:What it takes for anybody to be themselves, performance-wise, is fucking difficult.
Marc:It's true.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:Just figuring out what you want to... You spend so much time wasted trying to prove that you can have a versatile voice or something, or I did.
Guest:And at some point you're just like...
Guest:Why am I spending my time with this?
Guest:Pretending.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How much stuff did you write like that?
Guest:Well, I've written many, many, many scripts.
Guest:But I was a kid who loved movies, so I would see every kind of movie and wanted to write, My Rosemary's Baby.
Guest:And then you realize what you really are about after...
Marc:Did you write your Rosemary's Baby?
Guest:Yeah, I'd write dumb.
Guest:I mean, I've written, yeah, every kind of, I tried, you know, my hand at various genre types of stuff just because, I don't know, I just, yeah, I wanted to prove that I could do it.
Guest:But the point is, ultimately, it's like, you know, it's such a bitch getting anything.
Guest:You know, you have to really have passion for what you're doing or else you're, it's just too mind-nummy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you grew up, like, down here?
Guest:That's what's weird is I was looking for your place.
Guest:You know, I grew up in Pasadena, and my mom lived for many years.
Guest:When I first got out of college, I lived with my mom in Glendale, but north by the freeway.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So what's weird is, like, I know all of the areas around here, but this little, like, nub that you're in, I still get completely lost and confused.
Guest:And I don't even understand how it works...
Guest:From a macro sense.
Guest:It's not just like I get lost on the streets.
Guest:I'm like, I don't know where I am in relation to the 134 or the Pasadena Free.
Guest:It's like I know I'm... I don't know.
Guest:It's like this weird black hole of... Where'd you come from?
Guest:Well, I did stop by my mom's house to say hi to her, and she lives off Los Robles in Pasadena.
Guest:So then I came down the Pasadena freeway and got off on York.
Marc:Right, right, exactly.
Guest:But I just did it because I had Google Maps on my phone.
Marc:Basically, right now, we're in between York and Colorado.
Marc:Sandwiched in between York and Colorado, between Eagle Rock and Fig.
Marc:That's the plot of territory.
Guest:But you're not that far from the 134, but it seems like you would be.
Marc:No, it's just right over there.
Guest:It's just a couple blocks north.
Marc:Yeah, it's just right there.
Marc:It's a good location.
Guest:It's a great location, but for some reason, it's like a black hole.
Guest:I mean, how long have you been living in LA?
Marc:I've been here since 2002.
Marc:I lived over...
Guest:not that long no I lived over by the UCB for two years I've lived here my whole life and there's still like huge pockets where I can be like if I didn't have like GPS on my phone or something I'd be you know they'd have to like come send a rescue party for me
Marc:Yeah, and people come over here all the time, and they're like, where am I?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's weird with LA because it has no center to it, so there's no reason to know the whole city.
Marc:So you end up only knowing the four places you go.
Guest:But I've never really known, from the Pasadena Freeway, getting on the Pasadena Freeway to downtown, the whole section of what happens between there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I've always wondered, like, what is this?
Marc:Echo Park, yeah.
Marc:Echo Park, and then like Angeleno Heights and all that stuff, like right off the highway down by downtown.
Marc:I have no idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You have to go there to know.
Marc:So when you grew up, you grew up mostly in Glendale?
Guest:Well, I grew up mostly in Pasadena.
Guest:I lived in the foothills in Eaton Canyon near Sierra Madre, and then I went to school in San Marino.
Guest:I think that's partly it.
Guest:I realized like I'm kind of like, I mean, I wasn't rich or anything, but I grew up around rich people and I like inherited their snobbery.
Guest:Like there's certain parts of where like, I remember when I was first looking for apartments, I'd be like, no way I couldn't live there.
Guest:Not that I had any money or like any, I wasn't like, I had no like, I had no snob credibility.
Guest:But I just, it was like certain, I don't know.
Guest:It's like you just, you know, when you come from a, like you have a certain, it's like, you know, the famous New Yorker cartoon where, you know, it's like the world according to New York.
Guest:Oh, right, right, right.
Guest:And like, and that's.
Guest:where was that apartment where you were like yeah this is filthy i can't well it wasn't even that it was filthy but it was just like i don't want to live east of it's like either i'm gonna i don't know like i had to like i i just i don't know like i well i i mean i still am like that sort of like where do you live now i'm anxious when i'm not like feeling like central to something that i understand but uh sure well that's normal that's just normal sure it's anxiety you don't want to walk out of your house and go why
Marc:Why am I?
Marc:Where am I?
Marc:How come?
Guest:But sometimes I'll come over to like, I mean, again, I sound like an asshole, but like I come over to visit a friend who lives in like, I don't know, off Mitchell Torino or some somewhere on the east side that I don't understand all the like things.
Guest:And I'll be like, why the fuck do people like, what did they like?
Marc:I don't.
Marc:That's a little snobbery.
Marc:That's just anxiety.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like, why did I have to come to this place?
Marc:I don't understand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Cause you know, there's plenty of snobby people that live off of.
Guest:Well, it's just, there's no grid.
Guest:It's just, especially over here.
Guest:You can like, I don't know.
Marc:I think that's as, as good a metaphor for, for, uh, anxiety is, is you could come up with really, there's no grid.
Marc:there's no yeah like that why can't it just be like one two three four and then five across no and that's that it's not like that here so when you grew up what what was the what your old man was in the religion racket right my dad was yeah yeah like when you were a kid that was the thing he was uh what did he do my dad was well it was he was a minister he had a church in in pasadena and when your parents were still married
Guest:When my parents were still married.
Guest:So for a couple years, he had his ministry.
Guest:But then he also wrote these... The way he made money was he ghost wrote books for famous people who couldn't write their own books.
Guest:But they're all religious people like Jerry Falwell and Jim and Tammy Baker and Pat Robertson and Billy Graham.
Marc:He was a ghost writer for the worst of them in a way.
Guest:Well, I mean, the thing is, those people, because of the way they did business, those books were like, they were guaranteed huge, huge market.
Guest:Because what would happen is people would like donate to the church and they would get, it was like, the books were like a big way to, you know, it's merch.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So like my dad was made good money doing those things.
Guest:But yeah, it was, I mean, the thing was, my dad was from that world and, and he was closet gay guy, but, and he also had this kind of liberal, I don't know, because of that, there was a liberal impulse to him, but he also completely could get around his head around the, the, um, doing the job of the theologic aspects of some of their stuff.
Guest:That's why he could write it, you know?
Guest:because he could you saying he could believe it or he knew it was a well i mean it's like i think there was time i mean i like as far as like abortion i mean he wrote jerry falwell's like anti-abortion screed if i should die before i wake was the name of the book wow so he wrote like he collaborated with it you know it's like and then you know and so he yeah there must be some you know my grandparents were like real his parents were super like crazy i mean messianic religious people and
Guest:And so the fact that he can even, I don't know, put his clothes on in the morning, I honestly... But he's gone through a big sort of transformation of thinking over time.
Guest:But he's still very Christian.
Marc:Do you think that the struggle with his own sexual identity had something to do with... Was there an aggravated sort of... By doing those screeds, he could stuff himself more in the closet or live with himself a little better?
Guest:Well, I think that, you know, I think that he, you know, I honestly should ask him about like when, you know, because my experience when I was a kid, my dad was also, he was a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, which is in Pasadena, which is also a very sort of conservative theological, but like...
Guest:I don't know, well regarded, but fully conservative.
Guest:But he was the professor of media.
Guest:So he was interested.
Guest:He would write film reviews for Christianity Today and these different kinds of magazines.
Guest:So there was a part of him that was really interested in the popular culture, but then he also had this...
Guest:So, but the benefit for me was that as a kid, like, I had access to, you know, we would go see movies and we would have, like, VHS, like, you know, the first VHS, you know, machine on the block.
Guest:So, like, I didn't ever feel, you know, a lot of those kids that I grew up with from in that world, super sheltered and super, you know, like...
Guest:you know, you never, I don't know, like you get, you're not part of the popular cultural conversation.
Guest:And so I was able, you know, like I went to a secular school and stuff, so I never, and my dad was always kind of, I don't know, he was more, he really was like a seeker.
Guest:He wasn't just about like, you know, this is the answers and he was always trying to, so I don't know, he's an interesting guy, but he definitely went through, yeah, and he was loaded down with a ton of
Guest:heavy crap from his parents of, you know, wanting, you know, they wanted him to be the next Billy Graham.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So that was their plan for him.
Guest:And that was his plan too.
Guest:I mean, it just, he, you know, but then, you know, he's at odds.
Guest:I mean, he's still fighting it.
Guest:That's what's funny is he's a, he's 72.
Guest:He's a gay activist and he still wants to change like, uh,
Guest:he's trying to change his, you know, his parents are past, but like, you know, he's trying to change his parents mind by trying to change the minds of like these people who are so, yeah.
Guest:And these are people that are never, I mean, it's so, it's so at the core of their system of like, you know, if they accept homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle, it's like, it's their whole, the foundation of their whole way of living.
Guest:It's like, and so like, for me, it's just like, dad, what do you do?
Guest:I mean, it just feels like you're watching somebody beat their head against a wall.
Guest:But then at the same time, I like I go to like, you know, it's like we live in these liberal enclaves where, you know, like, you know, you bump up against certain kinds of but like not, you know, like and I see, you know, I've gone seen my dad, you know, he started where he would go to these religious churches in the middle of the country.
Guest:And people would spit on him and like people would like threaten to kill him.
Guest:Recently.
Guest:I mean, yeah, within the last... Oh, right, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, as an older man.
Guest:But since he's come out and he's a spokesperson.
Guest:It was funny because we went on The Amazing Race together.
Marc:Yeah, what inspired that?
Marc:Because that was pretty adorable.
Guest:I don't... I mean, I just wanted to go and they said, you should go with your dad and my dad was game.
Guest:So it was... I don't know.
Guest:It was a series of weird events.
Guest:But he... You have to take a psychological test.
Marc:For The Amazing Race.
Yeah.
Guest:For all of those reality shows.
Guest:And you have to meet with a psychiatrist before you go.
Marc:To determine what?
Guest:Because if, you know, they want to make sure, you know, because I guess, you know, every once in a while somebody like is a total nut job and hurt somebody or like.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And they need to, it's part of their like, you know, so they don't get sued or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I don't know how anyone could fail those tests, considering the people that come on the show.
Guest:But my dad did.
Guest:He was like, they like, you know, he got their test back and they were like, you have the results of like, inner city, you know, black kid who...
Guest:is getting constantly shot at.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You seem incredibly paranoid based on the test.
Guest:And he was like, well, what did I say that made me seem paranoid?
Guest:They were like, well, they say that you said that people are trying to kill you.
Guest:He's like, well, they are.
Guest:I get letters.
Guest:People are trying to kill me.
Guest:And they were like...
Guest:And then at one point it says you had visions.
Guest:It was like, well, once when I was having, I was arrested for one of my, for my activism and I was having a hunger fast in the jail cell and all of my heroes came to me, Martin Luther King and Gandhi.
Guest:And I know they weren't there, but it seemed like they were there, you know?
Guest:And the woman from this amazing race psychiatrist is like looking at me.
Guest:I'm like, I was like, dad, are you trying to get us booted from this?
Marc:He was being too honest is what he was being.
Guest:Yes, too honest.
Guest:That's been his problem.
Marc:Yeah, he's just too honest.
Marc:But you seemed to have a fun time with him.
Marc:Was it a bonding experience?
Guest:Oh, it was so fun.
Guest:I mean, we went twice.
Guest:The first time it was super fun.
Guest:The second time it was like an all-stars, and they decided to ratchet up the physical part of the race because everybody had done it before.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And my dad, within getting off the first plane, passed out in my arms three hours in.
Guest:Too much?
Guest:Yeah, we had to quit.
Guest:The first one was the best experience.
Guest:I mean, honestly, today I was just having lunch by myself, and it was like...
Guest:i want to get back on the race how do i get back on the race just to hang out with your dad or just no i don't want to go with him because it's too stressful you know i want to go with someone i can win and it's not like i don't know where i'm the old person and they can help me are you a competitive person by nature you just no it's just like i don't know it's already it's hard to explain but like
Guest:you know you're performing like you know when you write make movies and stuff it's really tedious yeah it's not there's no rush like i remember like working with jack black on you know and like then he would go to a show and you'd see like you know the kind of rush you get as a performer in front of like it's so intense and like you know and i i'm kind of a thrill seeker and just in and i don't know like i like a new adventure and right
Guest:And like movies, even when you're doing exactly what you're going to do, like I do, you know, I do this show in Lightning on HBO.
Marc:I love that show.
Marc:I actually have watched every one of them.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, the thing is like, you know, but after a while, even if you're making exactly what you want to do, you still are like driving to the set.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's like it becomes a routine.
Guest:It has a routine aspect to it.
Guest:And all making of things is painstaking, tedious.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And when you're on The Amazing Race, it's like your adrenaline is pumping 24-7.
Guest:It's exactly what you would wish when you're a kid, like wanting to be in it like James Bond.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you're actually that's as close as you'll ever get where you like you're running and doing adventures and the whole world is your stage and it's all in real time and like you know it's like you jump off things and you you know like you risk your life you think and like and like there's always stakes you always feel like if you you know you don't make it you're gonna be out and you can get yourself worked up until like it's like where literally i you know it's funny i had like a
Guest:It's this is the true proof of it.
Guest:They have this thing because people do it on Survivor.
Guest:It's the same casting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they have this thing called Survivor Dick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you're on Survivor or when you when I was on the race, I did not have one sexual thought the entire time I was racing, which was 15 days.
Marc:As opposed to how, do you, are you consumed with it?
Guest:Well, I mean, not consumed, but like, definitely it's like, I mean, yeah, you're like, you know, it's like, because you, you know, when you're racing, you don't, it's like, you're, it's like a survival.
Guest:You're like the last thing, you know, you're just about, and it's like, and, and I just can't imagine that in any other experience where I've like, for like, whatever, two and a half weeks, I don't even have a, it like, it doesn't even occur to me to have like sex or think about sex or whatever.
Marc:It's a very, it's very immediate and you're in the present.
Guest:And they say when people get off Survivor, there's this thing called Survivor Dick.
Guest:It takes them, like, after they've been eliminated, like, two or three days or four days to where they can get hard again.
Guest:Really?
Marc:There's actually a word for that.
Guest:Survivor Dick.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:Because they're too adrenaline down.
Guest:Yeah, they're just in the zone.
Guest:Yeah, there's something even bigger than sex.
Marc:Yeah, like, it's like after a show or something where it's just over.
Marc:And there's that depression that sets in because everything is, like, all jacked all the time.
Guest:i mean it is sort of like i don't know like fighting the french resistance like nothing is as exciting as it was did you do anything when you were growing up to like have that feeling or was that no but i mean i was like you know i mean it i don't i am kind of like uh like i don't like um drudgery or routine yeah i mean i can do my homework but i'm kind of you know it's like i like new experiences yeah so what do you seek out
Guest:i don't know yeah i don't know just dark dark stuff no i just you know it's like i don't i just uh that's horrible like so it's either for like it's either the amazing race or like craigslist or porn exactly like uh well it's just it's i don't know like some you know some people you know i don't you know it's like i i don't know
Marc:yeah no i know what you're saying you know we all have different sides to ourselves but like for me i definitely you know i'm not in a yeah i it's like i want to be elsewhere i want to always be doing new things i like want you know and it gets it's weird because when you have a computer and you're sitting at home and you have this access to things like there's party that feels like you're doing new things but you know eventually you just realize oh i'm by myself and this is kind of it's gotten a little ridiculous
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, I think maybe it's like when you're a writer, you spend a lot of time just not living because... You're generating things.
Guest:Yeah, you're putting all your life and your thought and your effort into your writing.
Guest:And so after a while, you have this very tortured relationship to the act of writing, or at least for me.
Guest:Dread?
Guest:Do you dread?
Guest:It's not so much dread.
Guest:I feel like it's like...
Guest:i don't know i it to me what comes to mind is like getting on one of those roller coasters and it's like you know like you're going up the thing and right you know you're about to like go down some yeah yeah yeah and it's like you are just it's this sense of anticipatory like this is gonna suck all my energy out of me so a lot of times procrastination for me isn't about because i don't really because i'm lazy or i don't want to write it's like i'm trying to like
Guest:And so, like, as I get older, because I've been, you know, writing for a long time, it's like, there's this, yeah, there's this anger that builds up about...
Guest:It's like I want to live.
Guest:It's like me as an actor on the stage of life versus the writer who... Because you know when you're building up to the writing, that means you're just going to isolate and focus on that.
Guest:Yeah, I can't see people.
Guest:I can't engage people.
Guest:It's not even just like I can't go to dinner or whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:People think I'm rude all the time because if I'm hanging out with them, I'm just elsewhere because I'm in my head.
Guest:And so I try not to even be around people when I'm working because I'm not present.
Guest:But I do love it.
Guest:And especially the more you're in the zone of where it's really just...
Guest:You know, you're living it as you are either writing it or, you know, reverie or whatever.
Guest:There's a rush to it, but it's also, I don't know, after a while you start to see yourself from a bird's eye view.
Guest:You're like, what are you doing?
Guest:you're creating how are you living your life i mean it's like you only have one life and it's like you want to you want to live you want to be like you know you want to be you know it's out in the world you're i mean i don't know how old you are but like you know it's like i'm 42 and it's like at some it's like it's called i guess it's a midlife crisis but like at some point you're like i want to you know you start to see the finite amount of things that you are going to be able to do and you and you just want to rage against it
Guest:and that's like that's why like doing amazing racer was like it was seemed like people would be like why would you do that why wouldn't you it's like you know in that short of time i could say i've seen all these countries i've done all these weird things like and you were locked in you didn't have to plan it no you're you're just a receiver of the adventure that's the best way to do things especially when you're writing because you're always having to like come up with all the answers and then you could just be the yeah you can just be the participant
Marc:Well, it's definitely a moment, I've definitely experienced it recently, where you realize it is a finite amount of time.
Marc:What haven't I done?
Marc:What stopped me from doing those things?
Marc:And then all of a sudden you have to sort of assess your own fear, your own motivation, because it's a lot easier when people are like, here, I'll take you to China.
Marc:As opposed to like, I want to go to China, and you're like, I gotta research it.
Marc:Oh shit, that seems like a chore.
Guest:Well, the thing is, I mean, at least I've gone through this period where like now whenever I'm invited to do something random, I just do it because I feel like, well, I should do that.
Guest:You know, I get it.
Guest:But then after a while, I don't know, like I read this whole book about like fetish or not fetishizing, but like the, you know, this thing that we feel like we need to have experiences like that, that, you know, this, that likes, I don't know, it's a Buddhist kind of like that at some point you can let go of the,
Guest:you know like that feeling like oh you know i'm missing out on things let go of that yeah that's a healthy place to to accept your own life yeah it's like you don't need to have sex with every new person you don't need to like visit every corner of the universe to i don't know
Marc:To be happy or to feel like you've done something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which many people don't even... That doesn't even... But for some reason, that's my... But maybe you have that.
Marc:You said your dad was a searcher.
Marc:Maybe you have that sort of spirit of never-ending longing and searching.
Marc:It seems to be in a lot of your characters.
Guest:But it's just like similar to sex or whatever.
Guest:It's like I don't regret ever hooking up with someone.
Guest:I always regret not doing it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like I could have and then I never just, you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, those are the worst.
Marc:Those are the ones where you feel like you got to go get closure.
Guest:Yeah, or just, I mean, and that's the same with life.
Guest:It's like you look back and you go, well, you know, if you lay it all out, if you just like, you know, like if you just, you know, then it feels like you would have less regrets.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's, there's a, you know, the part of being a writer as a, as a life choice, there's a little bit of anxiety where it's like, oh, so I spent a lot of time in my room, you know, like staring at the walls and like, I don't know, whatever it was.
Guest:It's like, I love it, but it's, it is.
Marc:You're still young and there's still a lot of opportunities to, to make up for all that.
Guest:Go on other reality shows.
Marc:Go on other reality shows, create your own reality.
Marc:But I mean, when did you... Okay, before it gets away from me.
Marc:So your parents split up after your dad came out or earlier?
Guest:Well, actually, my parents split up way after my dad came out because he didn't come out.
Guest:He came out to the family, but the way he made money was by doing these books.
Guest:And if those people knew he was gay, obviously they wouldn't be hiring him.
Marc:So you all knew before.
Guest:So, yeah, until my sister and I got through college, she didn't really, like, come out publicly.
Marc:And your mom and dad are still friends?
Marc:They are.
Marc:They're good friends.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's sweet.
Marc:Worked out.
Marc:And when you were growing up, were you religious?
Guest:I just never was.
Guest:I just... I don't know.
Guest:Like, I never... I just... Even for my kids, I always seemed...
Guest:I remember this girl, Marian Ingersoll was in school and she wouldn't say the Lord's Prayer because her parents were all Caltech scientists and she was like, I don't believe in God.
Guest:And I remember coming home at first grade and being like crying.
Guest:I was like, they're making Marian Ingersoll say the Lord's Prayer and she doesn't believe in God.
Yeah.
Guest:And I just didn't think that was fair.
Guest:So I don't know, for some reason I was always a little, and I didn't like my grandparents who were so religious because they were always like, how are you with Jesus?
Guest:Like it never felt like it was like, it was always about some, you know, like it felt like this kind of, it just felt external to me.
Guest:and i never that it was very conditional love anyways in a way right well yeah it was completely i mean i mean yeah this is the epitome of conditional love and their god was a god of conditional love you know it's all about like are you you know like good enough you know like yeah yeah yeah are you yeah they claim it's unconditional it seems no it's not it's unconditional if at the very end you accept jesus right before you know i don't know it's all about being good with jesus yeah at least for them so are you good with jesus
Guest:No.
Guest:I never was good with Jesus.
Guest:But I went to... They sent my parents one... Because I went to a secular school.
Guest:My sister went to a religious school growing up.
Guest:And they sent me to a religious camp one summer.
Guest:I must have been like nine years old.
Guest:And that was the closest I got to not believing in Jesus, but thinking I was possessed by the devil because everyone else saw Jesus and had a relationship with Jesus.
Guest:I remember they would get us together at night.
Guest:And like, we would, some like, you know, junkie would come and speak about how they were like, I don't know, doing tricks over on a bridge somewhere.
Guest:And then they found God and, and these little kids.
Guest:And then they'd send us out into the night by ourselves and be like, go out into the night away from the fire and like, go accept Jesus into your heart.
Guest:And I remember like going out there and I'd see my buddy Christopher, who was also at camp.
Guest:And I'd be like,
Guest:hey, man, what are you doing?
Guest:And he's like, go away.
Guest:I'm accepting Jesus into my heart.
Guest:And I'd be like, ugh.
Guest:Even him, it was like, it felt like the invasion of the body.
Guest:It reminded me of that movie where everyone was like, I don't know, in some, and I was like, I am totally alone.
Guest:And I called my parents.
Guest:I wrote my parents.
Guest:I was like, get me the frick out of here.
Guest:I hate that.
Guest:I was scared.
Guest:They had rapture drills in the morning.
Guest:The whole thing was really spook.
Guest:What if it was a rapture drill?
Guest:They got all the campers together, and then they would be like,
Guest:okay rapture drill i mean if i was there now i i would i would perform a citizen's arrest on somebody but like they then the the kids would raise their arms to the heavens yeah as if they were you know going to be one of the christians that were going to be raptured and the whole thing was about yeah like you know oh my god that's so crazy
Guest:It gives you insight, though, then when you like hear about like what's going on now, like all these like Republican conservatives who have a religious vibe because, you know, anything that looks sounds like, you know, disaster, like or like, you know, if you're, you know, like the Middle East, like blowing up or like typhoons taking out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All of that to them is a sign that Jesus is coming.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, like, those people should not have any say in foreign policy or, like, climate control.
Guest:Because, in a sense, they thrive on any sign of, like, disaster because God is coming.
Marc:Well, there's guys who really believe it, and then there's guys who use that as a means to control morons.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:If you frighten morons, you can sort of do whatever you want with them.
Marc:Because a lot of those guys who are like the apocalyptic people, some of them are genuine.
Marc:Other ones use it to guide policy.
Guest:It's scarily true.
Marc:So it never took hold of you.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:And I don't recall.
Marc:I mean, I've seen a lot of your stuff.
Marc:I mean, you don't really draw it.
Marc:There's not religious fanatics ever or people struggling with that in the movies, are there?
Marc:Not really, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the thing is, it's so... I feel like it's such a... I don't know.
Guest:It's hard because I don't have a lot of respect ultimately for...
Guest:I don't understand it as I get older I have even less so it's I feel like it's such a easy target to like sure obviously to satirize but then I really don't really want to like humanize it either because I find it very I don't know it's very it's I think it's a it's a bad strain in our country it's upsetting
Guest:It's absurd.
Guest:I mean, it's all these people in the name of like, they, and you know, the thing that I, and I, sometimes I go crazy.
Guest:I go online on Twitter and like, just seek out people like these tea party people who are like writing about how Obama is a Muslim and is trying to, you know, like,
Guest:And then I, and I just get into it with them like at a crazy.
Guest:And the thing that I always do is, and this is something I learned when I was a kid is that what you have to do to like make those people crazy.
Guest:I don't know what the point of making them crazy is, but it's just for my pleasure is that you have to say, you don't know Jesus.
Guest:And that like you keep, you try to hit them with the Bible.
Guest:You have to be like, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're at odds with the Bible.
Guest:You don't understand, you know, you should go back and read the Bible because a lot of them don't, don't read the Bible.
Guest:And they don't, you know, it's like, and also if you really do listen, read like the new Testament and Jesus is like,
Guest:you know what Jesus stood for he was about giving up all your money and giving it to the poor sure he was he was the biggest pacifist in the world like and like and these people are these I mean it's like in the name of Jesus they have the most it's the most hate the most so much hate and does that work does it make him spin out
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, I have the best time online when I do that.
Guest:But this dark part of me gets agitated, and I don't know.
Guest:Actually, after a while, I feel dirty.
Guest:Because the thing is, a lot of the people, I mean, they're crazy.
Marc:And they're dangerous.
Guest:Yeah, and they have guns.
Guest:It's a little scary.
Guest:In the end, it's like when you're so righteous, you really think that God speaks through you.
Marc:There's that moment where you cross a line with those people where you're like, could they find out where I live?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:And it gets very... It's frightening.
Guest:And in this day and age, it's really easy to find where people are.
Marc:It certainly is very easy.
Marc:So I watch Enlightened.
Marc:Now, do you feel that this is the best thing you've ever done?
Guest:I think it's... What's cool about it for me is that it's just... Because it's longer and I can... You know, I've written now 18 episodes.
Guest:Like, I can go deeper with it.
Guest:Like, most movies, you know, you can...
Guest:you can't go as deep, you know, you can't, you know, it's like a more novelistic approach to making something.
Guest:And so that part of it, I feel like there's a deeper, grow the character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a, I don't know.
Guest:And I can explore different tones and stuff.
Guest:It's really been a great thing just as a writer.
Guest:It's been fun to do.
Guest:And also as like, you know, you know, whatever was making it.
Guest:as whether it's the best thing i mean yeah it's hard you know like right now the show's not doing that well as far as numbers i don't think we'll go again i you know we have all this like great like critical response but it hasn't like really turned into people really watching why do you think that is
Guest:you know it shows really hard it's definitely like it's I mean I don't know what it would be like to stumble on it if I wasn't me making it so it's hard to know but like all these things that I thought would make people excited from by in a sort of challenging way of like kind of coming at things in like different ways each week and you know uh being a little bit more I don't know it's I see how it can be challenging to an audience and it's
Guest:also you know the truth is all of it was like you know you know HBO came to me and I I felt like I had an opportunity to do something there and I could feel that they were gonna do whatever it was that I wanted to do and so like that kind of put it on me to like well what are you gonna do and so like all of the strains that I don't like in certain kind of popular cultural stuff I wanted to just swim as hard up river as I could
Guest:I didn't want to talk about violence.
Guest:I didn't want to talk about sex.
Guest:I wanted to put a woman at the center of it and who was kind of annoying.
Guest:Some of the values that she has are some things that people find uncomfortable.
Guest:It's a very challenging character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a lot about her that in life I see people reject.
Guest:But at the same time, that's the kind of person I think...
Guest:You know, there's so many people that make the messes in this world.
Guest:And then there are the people that try to come and clean up the messes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And those people are never I don't know.
Guest:It's it's I don't know.
Guest:There's just something about it.
Guest:I was like, I want to do something about a woman.
Guest:It's not going to be a dating show.
Guest:It's not going to be a wish fulfillment fantasy.
Marc:It's like an aggravated vulnerability.
Marc:I'll tell you, when I first heard about it and the title of it, I didn't gravitate to it immediately, because I'm like, what could it even be about?
Marc:Enlighten and Laurie Dern.
Guest:Well, people have now seen 12 episodes, they still write online, I still don't know what this show's about.
Marc:What is it about?
Marc:I know what it's about now, because you deal with this character who has these personal issues and this weird sort of narcissism, but is also incredibly vulnerable and now is sort of trying to latch on to something with meaning,
Marc:And finds a mission that is like it wavers between personal and righteous.
Marc:And just her moving through the world.
Marc:You've met people like that.
Marc:And she's exactly the kind of person where if you were friends with her, you'd be like, look, I got to go.
Marc:Good luck with everything.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you have to ride along with her.
Marc:And then your character is evolving in a very interesting way because you're finding that you have an axe to grind in a way.
Marc:I think it's very compelling because I'm an angry, vulnerable person.
Guest:Well, I mean, I wish more people were seeing the show.
Guest:The thing that's hard then, it's like when you really put it all out there and feel like you're doing something wrong.
Guest:like that it's it's like then now i'm like well now what do i do yeah it's sort of like you know i want to i don't know i it's hard yeah so it's so that part of it is is it's like when you have something you know hbo is like a very you know it's a unusual situation in the sense that they
Guest:You know, they don't have such a strong thing about bottom line.
Guest:You know, they don't test stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you're really left alone in a lot of ways.
Guest:And then they also have a lot of resources so you can make it in the way that you really, you know, I've done a lot of indie movies or whatever where you're like bank borrowing and stealing for every penny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then like, you know, and then they also make a lot of noise with it at the end of it, which is, you know, like we have this huge billboard.
Guest:I mean, the show, nobody's like, you know, we have like, we don't even hit a million viewers.
Guest:Like it's like, and they have a huge wall on this, you know, up at sunset with like the posters and they spend a ton of money.
Guest:So it's like, I do sort of, there's this weird feeling.
Guest:Like, I feel like I'm Cinderella.
Guest:Like, I had this Cinderella experience of the show.
Guest:And at the same time, you know, at some point, I'm going to come back to reality.
Marc:Well, how did it come about?
Marc:I mean, were you and Laura Dern friends and you were just kicking it around?
Guest:Yeah, I did a movie that she was in called You're the Dog.
Guest:And she was a neighbor of mine.
Guest:And...
Guest:She had a holding actor talent deal or something there.
Guest:And I wasn't really looking back at TV because I'd had a bad TV experience.
Marc:With the last show you did?
Marc:Which show was that?
Guest:I did this show for Fox.
Guest:It was like a half hour with Jason Schwartzman and Molly Shannon cracking up.
Guest:And it was a total disaster.
Marc:Why?
Marc:What went wrong with that in your mind?
Guest:Well, I mean, it was dumb to try.
Guest:You know, my process, I write all the episodes.
Guest:And, you know, when you're doing a half hour...
Guest:It's so hard because there's so many people.
Guest:I mean, there would be like 12 people on one side of the table giving me notes and telling me.
Guest:And then just, I mean, with network stuff, there's just so much interference.
Guest:And they just didn't like what I was doing with the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they thought it was too weird.
Guest:You know, Fox had been kind of changing from like the Married with Children, like, you know, naughty, like, you know, rowdy channel to American Idol.
Guest:Right.
Guest:When I started.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so we were after American Idol and they wanted us to retain like the 28 million people that were watching American Idol.
Guest:And it was like, you got the wrong guy.
Guest:Like from the beginning, I was like, I honestly, it was one of those things.
Guest:It was like the producers where I was like, how can I what can I do to make them not pick up this show?
Guest:Like they had given me a nice little chunk of money to write the pilot.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it was like, I just kind of wanted that money and then to like it to be, you know, it's like, and then every step along the way, they just kept going.
Guest:And even after I like try, I would try to get fired.
Guest:I mean, I was like, by, you know, the 10th episode in, I was like, I wrote like the, you know, fuck you all.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know facts at the time yeah not the episode i was like i really wrote the letter like you guys are liars you don't know how to treat talent you fuck this up and you know sent it to like every like head of like my agency the head of fox like all these people and and i thought i would get fired they still didn't fire me
Guest:And so I had a full-on mental panic.
Guest:I had a breakdown.
Guest:How do I get out of this?
Guest:Where I was almost put into Las Encinas, which is in Pasadena.
Marc:You had a nervous breakdown?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Manic episode?
Guest:Well, I was supposed to, like, and then the next day they were like, okay, well, you know, the head of the network is in her office.
Guest:She's crying because of your letter.
Guest:And where's the script?
Guest:And I'm like, I can't do this.
Guest:And so, like, I, like, went to a shrink and I was like, I'm having, you know, all this, like, stuff.
Guest:And he was like, you need to go somewhere where you can get the help that you need.
Guest:And you can't go back to work today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was kind of putting it, it made it seem like I was going to get somewhere where I could like order room service and get sedatives and watch like, you know, America's Neck Top Model Marathon or something.
Marc:He just wanted to give you a ticket out.
Marc:Like, you know, I've had it.
Guest:Well, I just thought me, you know, he said, like, you can't go back to work today.
Guest:And at that point, that was true.
Guest:I was very upset, like real, like, you know, like crying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then like the next thing I know, he's sending me to Las Encinas and I'm like going in there and I was like, this doesn't look like the fourth season.
Guest:And then I didn't, I was like, this is.
Marc:What is it exactly?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:It's like, it's a basic, it's actually a very nice, I mean, I don't, I didn't stay, so I don't know, but like, it's a, you know, it's basically a lot of, you know, it's like a rehab place that has men, you know, people with different kinds of mental issues.
Guest:It's like the place where like a lot of old stars would dry out back in the, it's an old hospital.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But like, so I went there and I wasn't going to have my own room.
Guest:And like, my mom didn't know what she was helping me.
Guest:She didn't know what was going on.
Guest:She didn't know why I was so upset or what the, and at one point I was just like, this is crazy.
Guest:I'm not insane.
Guest:I'm just really stressed.
Guest:I need to get out of this stress.
Guest:And they're like, well, you're here now, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And then I just like ran out the door.
Guest:I like literally ran away.
Guest:And I got in my car and I drove.
Guest:And I checked my messages.
Guest:There was like 10 messages on the machine.
Guest:And I'm like, what?
Guest:And the shrink had brought it upon himself to call this office and say, Mike's not coming in because he's going to go get laid.
Guest:yeah he's going to a like basically a mental hospital and so all of these people had like kind of made my life a living hell these executives and uh producers and stuff weeping on my phone like don't worry about the show just get the help you need and i was on my way on i was going back to work and i was like now what the heck do i do
Guest:So I called my buddy and I was like, we should go to Mexico.
Guest:Like I should just get, I like, I should just disappear.
Guest:Like at this point, like, I mean, obviously my reputation is ruined.
Guest:Like I just don't want to go back to work.
Guest:I don't know what to do.
Guest:So like, and they'd put, give me all this pain, this like, not pain, it's like anti-anxiety.
Guest:And I'm really sensitive to drugs.
Guest:So by the time I went in there, we had this meeting with all of the executives, and I was like Francis Farmer.
Guest:I couldn't string two sentences together, and then within three days, the whole show was canceled.
Guest:And that was the happiest day of my life.
Guest:I didn't care.
Guest:I was just so happy to get out of work.
Marc:So ultimately, it worked, and you didn't have to stay at the place.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was... I mean, I always kind of wondered what it would have been had I stayed.
Marc:They literally gave you the tour and you ran out is what happened.
Guest:They didn't even... Yeah, they just basically said... I was like, am I going to have my own room?
Guest:And they were like, no.
Guest:No one has their own room.
Guest:And I was like, okay, I can't.
Guest:I just was like, am I going to be in there with someone?
Guest:Because, you know, this was the second hospital I'd gone to that morning because the first one they'd sent me to, I mean, were literally people shuffling down the hall with like...
Guest:And I was like, this is what happens.
Guest:Like, I've read books like this from like, you know, where someone goes in with something and then like they're lobotomized and like, I'm going to be in a mental hospital for the rest of my life.
Marc:Shuffling around.
Marc:So that worked out.
Marc:When did you start doing the writing?
Marc:When did that become, how did you get in and what was the first sort of projects?
Marc:Because you've done a lot of great stuff.
Marc:And like, I mean, I didn't even know until today really that, you know, you'd worked on Freaks and Geeks and this was, you know, you've been working as a producer and a writer for a long time.
Marc:I mean, when did that start?
Guest:Well, I've been writing since I was a little kid actually.
Guest:So, but I mean.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:Professionally?
Guest:Not professionally, just like for fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was, I grew up in Pasadena.
Guest:My second grade teacher was the playwright Sam Shepard's mom.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How bizarre is that?
Guest:Yeah, and she was my favorite teacher.
Marc:What was she like?
Marc:Because, I mean, I loved Sam Shepard.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, as a kid, I was so into her that then I realized her son was this big playwright, and he just won the Pulitzer Prize.
Marc:For Barry Child?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I bought Buried Child.
Guest:I was like, must've been in like eight years old.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:I didn't understand it, but like I would walk around and I just liked the way, like the words, like, you know, with place, like how they lay out on the page.
Guest:And it's, it didn't seem as daunting as like a book where you have to like write a billion words.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, so I just started writing little plays when I was a little kid.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was just something I did.
Guest:And so then as time got on, I, you know, like when I got out of school, when I went to college and this guy I knew who had written this movie, Last Action Hero with a partner and they had split up and we had been in some writing class.
Guest:And so it was kind of a boring, but very, you know, easy transition into like writing.
Guest:writing but it took me a while because he was already in yeah so i got jobs right away but it took me a while to like actually what we were originally talking about which is sort of develop my own voice what do you consider your first what was the first writing that you did that you felt really honored you well i wrote this movie called chuck and buck and i saw that yeah and it was a it was a script that like
Guest:really came fully... Sometimes you'll be writing and you suddenly are like, this is... I'm channeling something.
Marc:Where did the beginning of that story come for you?
Marc:I mean, how did that come about?
Guest:I was reading Freud's autobiography.
Guest:I was reading all these books about how dreams are disguised fulfillment of a repressed wish and relating that to movies and trying to
Guest:get at the core of what it is that you're trying to see or, you know, like... And so, like, I just had this weird... Yeah, this idea about dealing with childhood sexuality and, like, how it can get stunted and, I don't know.
Guest:It just became, like, all play on some of those, like, Freudian ideas.
Guest:But it was the first thing that I wrote that I was, like...
Guest:you know, like where I actually was like eager to see what people's reaction to the script would be as opposed to like dread or, you know, just taking, you know, like accepting, you know, like I was just, you know, I don't know.
Guest:I felt like it was like, there was something like, so you wrote it and you're like, there's, this is, there's a magic here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well this, yeah, I just felt like it was.
Guest:And, and, and I, I find over time that the, that feeling when it's connected to something you write, it has a much more likely chance of, you know,
Marc:that there is yeah yeah they know when you're you know and it turned out i mean it's a it's a very unique and it's a special movie there's no other movie like that there's no i've never seen that relationship portrayed in that way or any way no where it's weird like like your character ultimately doesn't even necessarily wrap his brain around why he's feeling the way he's feeling he just knows he has to follow his feelings and that you know that was a profound thing
Guest:Well, it started this whole trend and this is probably why some of the stuff I do is not as hugely received by a bigger 10 audience.
Guest:But like, you know, like I, you know, the idea of I wanted to play, you know, it's like I wanted to have a, you know, a protagonist, which was kind of like the embodiment of all the things you wouldn't.
Guest:want to be you know what i mean and then figure out how to like redeem that person or something you know but like somebody who's it's like you know like i remember when that movie came out and like ebert and roper or whatever reviewed it and it was like i just felt like i had spiders all over me and i just wanted to
Guest:spiders to get off me i remember richard oh my god just because it was it just created this kind of ooga booga feeling in in people but there was um because they couldn't quite well that's because he was like yeah he was like a gay retard like you know like you know lost like had not you know it's like there was no like i don't know it was in the period like i remember like goodwill hunting had come out right there were actors who'd written they're like this version of themselves that were like
Guest:working class, good guys, but also geniuses, you know, hidden genius, you know, like where you're like, and I was like, oh, this is so embarrassing.
Guest:Like as a performer, like that you're putting out this, like this like kind of like idealized version of yourself.
Guest:That's like both like, you know, it's like so many times you see these things where like people, you know, it's like, you know, you, you know, the person in real life and there's these craven, ambitious, like psycho, but then they put out this like, oh, you know, slacker, lovable, whatever.
Guest:It was like,
Guest:And I was like, I want to, you know, it's like if I'm going to do anything like that where I'm actually going to be like, is this, you know, it's like I just wanted to be like, I don't know, the monster version of myself.
Marc:But did you find, did you feel like they misunderstood the movie, Roper, when someone says something like that?
Guest:I mean, definitely.
Guest:I mean, it's funny.
Guest:My experience...
Guest:I have a buddy who is a producer on Enlightened, and he's a young guy who runs my company.
Guest:And every time there's a review that doesn't get it or just doesn't like it or whatever, it makes him crazy.
Guest:And it's like my experience... I've had so many things.
Guest:Freaks and Geeks is a good example, too.
Guest:But Chuck and Bud... All through my career where people have at the time been...
Guest:Skeeves them out a little.
Guest:Yeah, or just has some kind of... They have conflicted feelings about what it is.
Guest:And then years later, those same people will take what I'm doing now and then talk about Chuck and Buck as this laudable project that, of course, everybody loves and da-da-da-da.
Guest:And I was like, you were the one that... You hate it.
Guest:Yeah, it's like... So, I mean, with Enlightened 2, I know that...
Guest:I've had experiences where I've written something that I've really loved, and it's just been, you know, like a network, you know, no one ever saw, it never saw the light of day.
Guest:A lot?
Guest:Well, enough that, like, you know, when Enlightened came out, I was like, are they going to even, you know, the fact that they aired it and that it exists is already almost like a big enough victory for me.
Guest:I don't need, you know, it's like, I can stomach anything at this point.
Marc:Well, what do you, if you were to characterize, like, which, you wrote, how many episodes of Freaks and Geeks?
Guest:I wrote three, I have credited it for three episodes.
Marc:And you were part of all of them, or you were there for the whole run?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was a supervising producer on the show, which basically, yeah, just I was in the writer's room and broke stories.
Marc:Because I've talked to Paul Feig, I've talked to Apatow about them, and there was like a sort of honesty to the emotions of that time and that age that you just never see again.
Marc:And I think in a similar way, the reason why that show couldn't live in the world is that honesty and emotional honesty, when it's genuine, it makes people uncomfortable.
Marc:They don't know how to handle it.
Marc:And it's more telling about themselves than it is about the show.
Guest:Well, I think that that's true in my experience that, yeah, the emotional honesty is, you know, people go to TV and movies for different things, but often it's a...
Guest:I do think it's like a drug, you know, and that they want a certain kind of feeling.
Guest:And that feeling isn't always something that, you know, makes them, you know, deal with their real, you know, it's to either pump them up, you know, pump them up or, you know, juice them up or whatever.
Marc:Or at least they want some closure.
Marc:You know, they want it to end well.
Guest:You know, like melancholy and like, you know, especially like, you know, the melancholy aspects to enlighten or the meditative aspects to it.
Guest:I think, you know, it's like even the pace of it can make some people anxious.
Marc:Well, she's a lot to deal with.
Marc:I mean, you know, in almost any role that she plays.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And to have her sort of engaged in a role that kind of plays to her intensity, I mean, it's a lot of emotional intensity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that when you're forced to reckon with her as a character, it tells you a lot about yourself because it's what's great about HBO actually in that show is you sit in your living room going, I can't take this chick.
Marc:And then like in 10 minutes later, you're like, no, I do that.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And I think that's the experience that you're talking about that makes a lot of people uncomfortable is they'd rather have a detachment to it and be carried emotionally, but not have to confront themselves during the experience.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I mean, and I feel like it's... For me, I always feel like it would be naive of me to, like, create these circumstances.
Guest:You know, I'm doing it purposefully in a sense.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then for me to be like...
Guest:what?
Guest:They didn't like it?
Guest:Like, oh, it made them uncomfortable?
Guest:Or like, oh, they have mixed feelings about her?
Guest:Like, of course.
Guest:And so it's like, and so I don't, you know, it's like, I'm just grateful that they're, you know, HBO has done as much as they can by her.
Guest:But there is, yeah, there's moments where it's like, I don't know, like, we've gotten, you know, lately, it's just, there's the critical drum, you know, is beating really strong.
Guest:And you wish that that would translate into... Into people coming?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, just because, you know, it's like I'm not even sure I would want to do it again.
Guest:It takes a lot out of me, but I would rather it be my decision.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in terms of your evolution as a creative person, do you feel like you're you're like it is some sort of consummation of something or just another project?
Guest:Well, I definitely think it's a consummation of where I'm at in my life as far as like, you know, I'd had this nervous breakdown and I then tried to pick up the pieces of my life afterwards and got into, you know, Buddhist self-help books and yoga and that kind of stuff and also trying to like be more
Guest:I don't know, the idea of making meaning out of your life after you've blown it.
Guest:Or lost it.
Marc:I mean, you really haven't blown it, but you pushed yourself to the edge.
Guest:Yeah, where you shit the bed and everyone knows it.
Guest:And you have to own it.
Marc:Did you really feel that, though?
Marc:I mean, or was it more a personal sort of like, you know, I've gotten myself into a situation.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know, you know, what it is I really, you know, want to do.
Marc:And now I'm just like the anxiety just overwhelmed you.
Marc:I mean, did you really feel like you were in trouble career wise?
Guest:Because it seemed like it wasn't even so much career wise.
Guest:It was just that like I'd gotten to the point where like a sitcom on Fox could spin me so far out that I had like
Guest:Yeah, I felt like I was going to die or that I didn't... And it became more of like, what is your foundation of self that you could get... That you could lose your sense of humor so completely you couldn't even come back from it.
Guest:I mean, I know why it happened.
Guest:I mean, I have sympathy for myself.
Guest:It's not like I beat myself up for it.
Guest:But yeah, it was one of those things where like... And so, yeah, I think Enlightened is...
Guest:in a sense, a culmination of what I've grappled with internally for the last couple years.
Guest:And to me, the show is about, you know, realizing, yeah, your own imperfect life and that you have to make peace with the person that you wanted to be and the person that you are.
Marc:And that's tricky because that goes on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, there's very few people that have aced that.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I mean, have you met any?
Guest:No, but I do think that there's, you know, it's more about getting to a certain age in life and then the rest of your life you deal with it.
Guest:But I think when you're, you know, there's times where you're up to, you know, like for me, everybody's different.
Guest:But like up to that point, I was a full on workaholic and I really thought my work could save me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then at some point you come to the end of the precipice and you're like, oh, nothing's going to save me.
Guest:I better go in.
Guest:And I'm just the weird freaky bird.
Guest:Nothing's going to remake me.
Marc:It has to come within.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's the old inside job business.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, those moments where Laura Dern, where she's actually able to hit a wall in interactions and actually have moments of true empathy are pretty stunning.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, cool.
Marc:Because these are choices you make, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you're creating the character or having her engage.
Marc:But it's a very relatable situation, especially for sensitive people.
Marc:Because people like her, maybe people like you in your life, you're always gonna feel, you're always gonna be the outsider.
Marc:And that's what's interesting about your dynamic with her, is that you're both outsiders.
Marc:And I guess most people spend their life fighting that, or they're just fortunate enough to have some sort of self-esteem, which is usually boring, that enables them to move through the world with a certain amount of grace.
Marc:But there are those people that are just sort of like, they're never, they just don't have that.
Marc:So, you know, in order to learn that, especially as you get older, it's an awkward, clunky thing, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I do think that, like, structurally, because it's told from, like, a voiceover kind of thing, it is about her... It always comes back to a sense of, like, her own relationship to herself, you know?
Guest:And I think that that's definitely true for me, that, like...
Guest:I relate to people and I love people.
Guest:I can have sympathy for people.
Guest:But I always feel my own sense of alone self.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even if you're with people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that is... So then those connections become sweet, but they're always bittersweet because it's always...
Guest:It's never something you can hold.
Marc:Yeah, and it's also because you're having an interaction with a person, but you're also having this consciousness.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But you'll find that most TV shows, because they don't have voiceover or they don't work that way,
Guest:that often the emotional moments are about connection.
Guest:And so it's often like, it's about relatability and interconnectedness between characters.
Guest:You'll watch, you know, like a show like, I don't really watch it, but like a show like Parenthood or something that's more a little traditional emotional show.
Guest:It's really about like, you know, the characters and how their communication connects and enlightened.
Guest:It's about that wanting to connect, but it's always this sense of that there's always some, you know, a barrier between you and the other.
Marc:Right, but what you're talking about in traditional television becomes predictability of an ensemble, and that's why people are sort of like, oh, you know what they're doing.
Guest:Well, I just don't think, honestly, that's just not in my experiences being true.
Guest:It's not life.
Guest:Like, you know, we're hanging out here, I can see you're a cool guy, I like you, you know, but it's like, you know, for me to actually feel close to you would take so much money, you know what I mean?
Guest:you know i mean it's like it takes a lifetime of like you know i was just with my mom who i know for and it's like you know it's like a hugger and it's but it's just you know i don't know like i don't ever have those kind of like you know cry you know face someone face to face and tears come up and you say the thing and you know it's it's never like that it's always like you walk away and you go oh you know i can remember annie hall which was such a great movie you know and the and the reason that movie is so part of i mean money reasons is
Guest:is that she leaves him at the end and she's walking away and he's like, oh, I thought about how she's, you know, and it's like, that's what I relate to.
Guest:It's like watching someone walk away and having my own internal conversation about, oh, I do like that person.
Guest:That person has been a good person in my life and I love that person.
Guest:But it's never like, I love, you know, it's never like in the kiss or whatever.
Guest:It's like, as the relationship ends.
Marc:It's an intimacy thing, right?
Marc:I mean, there's something horrifying about it.
Guest:Well, it's, I mean, and also even there's just always, I don't know, you can know somebody as well as, you know, you can know anything and there's always some mystery quality to what do they really think of me?
Guest:Like, what is, what, you know, like, you know, I know they're being polite because it's my mom.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I, you know, it's like, I, you know, whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's intimacy is hard, but even in the deepest realist intimacy, because I do have intimate relationships with
Guest:But there's always – yeah, I do always feel like you come into the world and you go out of the world and it's your relationship to yourself that you have to – But do you think that fundamentally what you're talking about is that you judge yourself harshly?
Marc:So you're putting that on other people?
Guest:No, I just think it's just – I don't know.
Guest:It's honestly how I –
Guest:I don't really believe... I don't believe... I feel like there's always a limit to how much you can ever know anyone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's not a tragic thing.
Guest:It's just reality.
Guest:And I think that being able to be alone with yourself and be okay with yourself and growing your relationship to yourself is something that I think is at least important to me.
Marc:Can you be alone with yourself and not be working?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm always alone in myself.
Guest:I'm alone in myself here right now.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:I'm experiencing you, but I'm here experiencing myself.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:How's it going over there?
Guest:It's good.
Guest:No, it's true.
Marc:With Freaks and Geeks, I mean, when you were in that, because those are good guys to work with, and I imagine that was sort of a defining experience.
Marc:for you.
Marc:What was great about that in terms of the freedom you guys had to work with Feig, who was very determined to do something with integrity?
Guest:It was great because the aesthetics were much more mine and it got a lot of that stumbling toward intimacy.
Guest:And the little victories were so little and just the emotional tone of it.
Guest:And I think there was a lot of
Guest:respect in the, you know, in that world that, you know, I'd had other experiences where, you know, those kind of, you know, writers weren't respected that way.
Guest:And, and, and I feel like, you know, I did get a lot out of it.
Guest:It wasn't for me, this like ideal working experience that it was, I think for a lot of people at the time, because I was just in a different place in my career and, and I kind of wanted to get out of TV.
Guest:And so when the show was canceled, I was kind of like,
Guest:you know, got me out of another year of doing that and I wanted to do other stuff.
Guest:But I, you know, it was also difficult because, you know, I'm a kind of an anal writer and, you know, Judd is, you know, to me, and, you know, obviously incredibly talented, has an inarguable track record, but I, but he's very anal expulsive writer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:which is like putting tons of stuff out there and then like it's just a such a different process it's not structurally based it's more um you pull things yeah you throw out a hundred different ideas and you have a hundred different people pitch on it yeah and and it's always it's like a quilt of like right multiple voices right and and and he's good at like you know yeah picking the right thing yeah or you know being the conductor of the orchestra in a sense yeah
Guest:But as someone like me who comes from like, I want to write the perfect little script and, you know, like with all this authorial intent.
Guest:And I remember I would give them my script and they'd be like, well, why don't you put, you know, like pitching out on it and giving it to other writers to pitch out.
Guest:And I'd be horrified.
Guest:I was just like, this is not, I can't, and I wouldn't do anal for this.
Guest:Like, and, and I, and, and honestly, it was like, yeah, it made me feel like I couldn't,
Guest:You know, when you know that you're going to go, when you approach a script and you know that in the end it's going to go through that process, you can't care about it the way that I want to care about it.
Marc:Because it becomes a group.
Guest:Because, yeah, it's going to be a clusterfuck and, you know, like people are, you know, judge is going to like something.
Guest:And, you know, it's just like anybody where when someone's in charge, you don't always understand.
Guest:But because they are in charge, it goes the way that it, you know, it goes the way that it goes.
Guest:So he would be like, I like this.
Guest:And I'd be like, well, why?
Guest:You know, like, I don't know.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I, and it's like, and I, I just, I'm not a good employee in that way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you wrote Orange County.
Guest:Well, I, yeah, I'd written a, I'd Chuck and Buck and the Orange County and the Good Girl were scripts that I'd been writing all to just try to get work.
Marc:I loved the Good Girl.
Marc:Did you like it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I wrote it.
Marc:Well, I know.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I liked how it turned out a lot.
Guest:I liked the cast.
Marc:It seems to me that the Gyllenhaal character is very much a character that you sort of thematically, that he's one of those guys just tortured by his own emotions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He's like the writer without any imagination who just is the posture of the put-upon writer.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he was also young.
Guest:Which I could relate to.
Marc:And a romantic to a bad effect.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, I wrote all those scripts.
Guest:And then, so they were all at different places of, like, you know, getting kind of made.
Guest:And then that's, and at that point, I had gotten this job on Dawson's Creek, which was my first writing job, which was a very, like, learning experience, but not the best creative experience.
Guest:And then Freaks and Geeks was,
Guest:So all these things were kind of happening at once.
Guest:And it was kind of why when Freaks and Geeks ended, I was kind of right.
Guest:I was excited to be able to, cause right after that Chuck and Buck came out and then the good girl in Orange County and I was getting movies made and it just felt like a, an opportunity to really put all my,
Guest:You know, it's like at some point you don't want to be decorating someone else's house.
Guest:You want to build your own house.
Marc:And how does School of Rock fit into the white?
Guest:School of Rock, after a couple of those movies came out, I had a deal at Paramount and they just had a blind deal.
Guest:And Jack was my next door neighbor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He lived with Laura Carley next door to me.
Guest:I know Laura.
Guest:And Jack would sometimes give me scripts that he was considering doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were always like, you know, the drunk frat guy who falls through the, you know, plate glass window or whatever.
Guest:And it was kind of like the Jack that I knew was like a very like warm, you know, warm, like very like, there was a softer side.
Guest:And after a while I was like, I should just, I mean, I was like, I could come up with a script for him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he was getting movies made, and I liked working with him.
Guest:He had a small part in Orange County.
Guest:And so, I don't know, I came up with School of Rock, and that was fun.
Marc:The one you directed, Year of the Dog, is when you write something and direct it, how does that add pressure to you?
Marc:And what's your process?
Marc:Because I imagine when you write a script and someone else directs it, you're like, oh, they did a pretty good job with that.
Marc:I would have done that differently.
Marc:But when you have full control, I mean, does that make you crazy, or do you like it?
Guest:I didn't ever feel like I needed it.
Guest:As long as I felt like the script was being... I tried to write as bulletproof... Chuck and Buck and the Good Girl and Orange County to less a degree, but mostly.
Guest:They were basically the script that was written.
Guest:Nothing really... They made the movie.
Guest:And I felt like that was enough.
Guest:But as I've gotten older, you know, it's harder now, especially after, you know, I've directed like half the enlightened episodes.
Guest:It's kind of like, I do realize like, you know, you can, you know, express something more clear or tonally, emotionally clear if you direct it as well and, you know, edit it and break the music and choose how to, how it, you know,
Guest:so it can directly match your feelings for the entire experience yeah I mean especially with a show like Enlightened which is a lot of it is a tone poem in some senses it's like I like to have the control yeah yeah and because it becomes the whole thing becomes a signature of you in a way well it feels like it's you know it gets back to like the drug what is the drug you're trying to express you know like it's the you're channeling a certain emotion that you feel in yourself and you're putting it out
Guest:there that's uh that's great and acting i mean in terms of do you like just acting uh i mean i do like acting it's fun you know it's honestly it's fun to be connected to when i first got out here you know there's so many screenwriters
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That like seem they all seem sort of like victims.
Guest:And I think that because even the most successful.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like a little bitter.
Guest:Well, I mean, and there's reason to be, I think, because the nature of the business.
Guest:But I think that a lot of them, it's because they don't get even when they're successful, they don't get recognition for the work they do.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And for whatever reason, because I put myself in a lot of the things that I've done.
Guest:People associate me with the material.
Guest:And that is satisfying.
Guest:It's satisfying when I feel like, oh, like, you know, someone likes a movie that I did.
Guest:They see me and they can say, oh, I like that movie.
Guest:And they know it's for me because they saw me in the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, if I wasn't in those movies, I wouldn't know, you know, I wouldn't be getting that kind of feedback.
Guest:So there is a, like, it's just a basic kind of selfish thing.
Guest:The other part is just, it's fun to, you know, like I had a, you know, like the beginning when I first started out, like you write something and then everyone goes and makes it.
Guest:And then you're sent back to the cave to keep writing.
Guest:And it's sort of like, uh, that seems like, again, it's like, I want to live.
Guest:I want to be there too.
Guest:So acting is a part of a way to sort of participate that
Marc:Do you get that same rush from acting or doing a scene as you would with Amazing Race or being at least separate from yourself?
Guest:I think it would be cool to be in a play because that would be more immediate.
Guest:Movies, no.
Marc:Because you keep doing it over and over.
Guest:You can have moments where you feel like you're in the zone, but movies are so stutter start that you never really get that kind of...
Guest:You know, where you're just... Lose yourself.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Yeah, lose yourself.
Marc:So why don't you do a play?
Guest:I should, but I don't know.
Guest:I never... How's your personal life?
Guest:My personal life?
Guest:It's pretty great.
Guest:It's so awesome.
Guest:My personal life?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's decent.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I've just been sick for two weeks, so I don't feel like I have a personal life.
Guest:But yeah, I have a boyfriend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't really get a personal life stuff.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I'm happy to talk about it, but I just... I don't know.
Guest:What's cool is that I've really...
Guest:I don't know when you don't have kids, you don't want to have kids.
Guest:It's like, it just sort of feels like it's like, I don't know.
Guest:Why are we doing this?
Guest:Like, what are we doing here?
Guest:I mean, it's fun to hang out if you want to hang out or whatever, but like, or like, what is this?
Guest:Is this really like, is this it?
Marc:I mean, what is this?
Marc:Is this the way it goes for the rest of it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't want to have kids?
Guest:I don't, I mean, I, there were moments when I did, but now I definitely don't.
Guest:I mean, I don't feel like I've passed the age where like, it's like, it's, I'm tired.
Guest:Like I have dogs and I'm like, already it's tiring.
Guest:Do you mean like how, what do we do?
Guest:How do we like just feed and walk the dogs every day?
Guest:It just seems like already like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Huge.
Guest:And I saw what happened with my dogs.
Guest:And I know it would happen with kids, which is like, I got the dogs.
Guest:I was so excited about the dogs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would do a walk them.
Guest:And then after a while, I just figured out how do I figure out how to delegate these dogs onto other, like, how do I, how do I delegate the responsibilities of these dogs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in fact, my whole life is about how do I make enough money and whatever so that I don't have to walk the dogs if I don't want to walk the dogs.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like with kids, I mean, and I still feel guilty.
Guest:I'm always feeling guilty about the dogs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm sure with a kid, it'd be a thousand times more.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Plus it's like, I don't really want like, do you have kids?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I, you know, like for me, I was a terror.
Guest:It's just like, I'm sure the way Judd felt about me as an employee is same as my dad would feel about me as a kid, which was like,
Guest:scrutinizing way too much always asking why are you doing this like what like i was like i was not i was i was i don't want to be with i don't i don't want to be held to that kind of scrutiny you know the kind of scrutiny that a kid gives which is like why am i like this it's because you and you're they're looking they're trying to parse you apart you know what i mean yeah i don't want to be i don't want to i don't want that it's like i'm still dealing with the complicated my parents my relationship with my parents is already so like
Guest:fraught and complex and lovely, but why would I want to replicate that again in some other thing where guilt and I don't know, all that stuff.
Marc:You're making me anxious.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I like...
Guest:at the same time like i don't know at this point in life the only thing that's weird is that like if you don't have kids there's some moment where you feel like i could be like i don't know that i think of that movie interiors another woody allen movie yeah like geraldine page just walks into the ocean right where i was just like i feel like sometimes like well if i you know if my parents died like and and it's like at some point it's like like i could just walk into the ocean and maybe i will you know
Guest:Not because I'm suicidal, but it's sort of like, I don't really know.
Guest:I feel like with my work, I've already expressed myself.
Guest:I've expressed myself in different forms.
Guest:I've had my babies, in a sense.
Guest:I had a melanoma scare, like cancer.
Guest:And it was one of those things where I had three surgeries, and it was like, maybe this could actually be it.
Guest:And it was like, I was actually weirdly...
Guest:relieved not relieved but i was like well you know at least you know it's like i think it's like feeling like you've put it all out you know it's like i've ran the race i went on the amazing race you know like i i'm done i'm done you know i've never won an oscar but i was at the oscars i saw you know i've won a prize i've won prizes i know what that's like i know what it's like to like have a party and be the center of attention yeah
Guest:I know what it's like to be in a relationship.
Guest:I know what it's like to have great sex.
Guest:I know what that's like.
Guest:I also know what it's like to be deprived of all those things.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:What's left?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What is?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:We'll figure it out.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Thanks, Mike.
Marc:You good?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:That was intense.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:That was an intense conversation.
Marc:I know it ended sort of abruptly, but Mike, I felt, was done.
Marc:And I reflected back on that conversation a lot after I did it.
Marc:It tugged at my heart.
Marc:There was a lot to relate to, in a way.
Marc:And just the intensity of him and the sort of torture that he seems to go through.
Marc:But just a fucking brilliant guy.
Marc:As always, go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Go get some merch.
Marc:The Box Brown Live at Helium posters are selling fast.
Marc:They're beautiful.
Marc:Hand-screened posters.
Marc:Going to have some more posters up there soon.
Marc:Check the calendar at WTFPod.com.
Marc:Pick up one of three or all three of the Mark and Tom shows.
Marc:Do what you got to do.
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Marc:You know the score.
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Marc:Oh, it's still on.
Marc:Stop.
Marc:Stop.