Episode 363 - Aimee Mann
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fuck am I doing with my fucking life?
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:I am him.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:I'm losing my mind.
Marc:Hey, let's not get too crazy here.
Marc:Let's not go too far before I get into some business.
Marc:Can I get into some business?
Marc:You know, Tom Sharpling from The Best Show.
Marc:Come on, Tom Sharpling, one of the great cranky geniuses of our time.
Marc:Him and I occasionally get together and talk.
Marc:And we talk on the mics for the Mark and Tom show.
Marc:There are three of them.
Marc:The newest one, the Mark and Tom show three is available over there on the iTunes or you can go to WTF pod.com.
Marc:You can do a search on Mark and Tom on the iTunes.
Marc:Pick it up to 99.
Marc:That's a bagging.
Marc:That's a fucking bagging.
Marc:We lay it down, man.
Marc:We talk music.
Marc:We talk stuff.
Marc:We make each other laugh.
Marc:We think out loud in front of each other.
Marc:He's a great guy and incredibly funny.
Marc:I was about to say he's one of the few people that make me laugh, but I seem to laugh more these days.
Marc:You know why?
Marc:Because I'm letting myself.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Amy Mann.
Marc:So Amy Mann, Amy Mann, Amy Mann is on the show.
Marc:Amy Mann from Till Tuesday from her solo career.
Marc:I think I annoyed her, man.
Marc:I couldn't let go of the till Tuesday thing because I was in Boston when she was there.
Marc:So we talk about that.
Marc:It's good, man.
Marc:She plays at the end.
Marc:She sounds fucking great.
Marc:It was great talking to her.
Marc:So there's that.
Marc:But let me tell you about this stress situation.
Marc:Not that you care.
Marc:I guess I should get candid with you.
Marc:I should get real with you, right?
Marc:That we do that here.
Marc:Is this a safe space?
Marc:Is this a safe environment?
Marc:Is this a safe room?
Yeah.
Marc:You know, Jess and I are going to couples counseling because I've got problems apparently, but we're in this weird situation that I've never been in before.
Marc:I haven't been in therapy in a long time.
Marc:It's not that we're having problems.
Marc:It's just that we want to communicate better.
Marc:I.E., we're having problems, but not real problems.
Marc:It's just when you get into a pattern with somebody you're with, all of a sudden you start getting afraid to say certain things because you don't want something bad to happen.
Marc:And that can be a very broad thing bad to happen.
Marc:You just start behaving differently to avoid certain things.
Marc:I know this can't just be me.
Marc:And my problem is, is like if I'm not careful with her, I say something.
Marc:She says something in a tone back and then I'm screaming and then it's no longer about the issue we were talking about.
Marc:It's just about my tone.
Marc:And then I'm screaming things like, what do you fucking mean my tone?
Marc:What do you mean my tone?
Marc:What tone are you talking about?
Marc:But anyway, so we go to the couples counseling thing just to communicate better, i.e.
Marc:no problems.
Marc:Just want to nip that in the bud.
Marc:I really think that if you meet somebody you like, you should immediately go to couples counseling.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:If you can afford it.
Marc:That's the other thing.
Marc:Kind of pricey.
Marc:Not that excited about it.
Marc:Has to be done.
Marc:So we're actually in couples counseling with a guy who's married to a therapist.
Marc:And she's also available.
Marc:Like, okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you can either see them separately, like we can go to couples counseling and she'll go in one office with the woman and I'll go with the guy.
Marc:And you sign releases that enable them to talk to each other about you guys.
Marc:And then you get it.
Marc:I can't tell whether it's an effective therapy process or some sort of weird gossip loop.
Marc:Because then like she gets out of therapy and she goes, well, you know, I heard that you that you said that.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:I didn't say that.
Marc:So what did we just sign releases so they could gossip about us to each other and then tell the other person what the other person said?
Marc:That doesn't seem like this doesn't seem like a formatted thing, but it's been pretty interesting.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:The jury is in.
Marc:I'm still fucked up.
Marc:You are you still fucked up?
Marc:I'm still a little fucked up.
Marc:But I have been very busy.
Marc:I have been recently, this week, everything's sort of coming, you know, converging on finishing my book.
Marc:The manuscript is done, it's been typeset, so this is like the last week I can make changes.
Marc:And I'm simultaneously recording the audio book for my book.
Marc:And the changes aren't all set in stone, so now I'm reading things with markings on the side and words scratched out for the audio book.
Marc:And I almost lost it reading the audio book.
Marc:There's a woman, this woman, Kim, is directing the reading of the audio book.
Marc:And by the way, the book is called Attempting Normal, and it is available for pre-order on Amazon.com.
Marc:So I'm reading these pieces and it takes a lot to read for hours.
Marc:And I got someone in my head who's on the mic in the production room who I don't see who's got my back.
Marc:I got my back turned to them and I'm just reading my stories.
Marc:And all of a sudden in my head, I'll hear, could you do that sentence again?
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:What sentence?
Marc:The one you just said.
Marc:And I've decided that she has a tone.
Marc:And I am ridiculous.
Marc:If I talk to somebody for like five minutes, if I just meet somebody, I am capable of creating an almost instant dysfunctional relationship.
Marc:I am capable of reading tone into what they're saying to me that is attacking, manipulative, controlling, and evil.
Marc:And literally, I'm reading this.
Marc:I had this.
Marc:She said...
Marc:just interrupting me in the middle of reading.
Marc:Literally, it's like being interrupted in the middle of a presentation.
Marc:I'm just reading my book.
Marc:She goes, could you say the word more clearly?
Marc:And I'm like, fuck, fuck.
Marc:And I had to say, sorry, that was not about you.
Marc:I'm just frustrated myself.
Marc:And the subtext was at you, but I don't know you, but your tone is bothering me.
Marc:To my credit, folks, if you would, I did not say those things.
Marc:I'm excited about the book.
Marc:I didn't think I would be.
Marc:You guys are going to enjoy it, I think.
Marc:There's some stuff.
Marc:I talk about a lot of stuff, and you know a lot about the stuff I talk about, but some of it's taken to different degrees.
Marc:Some of it you've never heard before.
Marc:Some of it is... I'm just happy.
Marc:It's written.
Marc:I wrote it.
Marc:It turns out I'm okay at that.
Marc:I'm pretty good at the writing.
Marc:So there's that.
Marc:It's okay if I feel good about myself for a few minutes.
Marc:Okay, maybe a few seconds.
Marc:Can I just feel good about myself?
Marc:Okay, it's passing.
Marc:It's passing.
Marc:But people are asking me to chime in on this.
Marc:There's a New York Times piece on the UCB in their defense of not paying performers.
Marc:And several people asked me on Twitter to say something about it.
Marc:Look, I am of the belief that you gotta pay the help something.
Marc:There's always... How about a little gas money respect?
Marc:That's all.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:I took a train over here.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:I had to drive.
Marc:How about 10 bucks?
Marc:How about 15 bucks?
Marc:How about a 20?
Marc:A little gas money respect.
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:Look...
Marc:If you're not going to give me a piece of the door, if you're not going to do anything, you're making money.
Marc:So look, I drove over here.
Marc:Do I have to pay to perform here if I'm a professional performer?
Marc:That kind of thing.
Marc:So that's my basic theory.
Marc:If you've got a good case for not paying, then you should probably, how about a little gas money respect?
Marc:That's all.
Marc:A little gas money respect.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:Yeah, I got to drive over here.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:I'm a professional.
Marc:Professional.
Marc:I saw people paying for tickets.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How about a little train money?
Marc:That's all.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:Let's talk to the amazing Amy Mann.
Marc:Are we public about our age, Amy Mann?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You got no issue with it?
Marc:Well, you know.
Marc:You don't hide it?
Guest:At some point, you can't really run that far.
Marc:Yeah, you look great, though.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:So, while you're here and we haven't seen each other in a long time,
Guest:Yeah, it's been a while.
Marc:And we were friends there for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then everything disappeared and we moved on from the friendship.
Marc:That was a tough time for me.
Marc:I was just out of a divorce and I was crazy and you were very, it was nice to have a family over there at your pool.
Guest:That was very nice.
Guest:Yeah, I liked it.
Guest:I liked it.
Guest:I think you were a little crazy without pointing fingers, but also I think, you know, like also two crazies together.
Marc:Yeah, it was a lot crazy.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, honestly, you, to be perfectly blunt, I feel that you are a little too hot to handle.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's a snake charmer aspect to you that is kind of terrifying.
Marc:Yeah, well, I've tried to put a damper on that guy.
Marc:Like he seems to have relaxed a bit.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Okay, good.
Marc:Yeah, I had a lot.
Marc:Something was going on.
Marc:I was deeply and darkly hungry.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But that happens.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Trust me when I say that I relate to that statement 100%.
Marc:Like, I'm trying to think like the first time and I know I told you this story before and I think I've talked about it before.
Marc:I don't remember where, but I always talk about it.
Marc:That the first time I ever saw you was going into a laundromat on Beacon Street across from the wine press in Brookline, Massachusetts when I was in college.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Because you were like around and you had that haircut.
Marc:Which was like, you know, it was like, it wasn't really, it was like, not like a mohawk, but everything was up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you had like a braided tail.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you were very ever present all over Boston in my memory.
Marc:It was like, I wasn't even sure that I knew who your band was, but I'm like, there's that girl.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I, you know, I had my freak flag flying high for sure.
Marc:But how, what was, what was your history in Boston?
Marc:I mean, how long were you there?
Guest:I went to school there, I went to Berklee College of Music, almost just by, you know, on a whim.
Guest:And, you know, just got kind of hooked into the music scene, which was huge and expansive and amazing.
Guest:And, you know, just kind of one thing led to another, and I ended up in this band.
Marc:What did you study in music school, though?
Guest:Well, I went to a summer program because I really didn't know anything about music.
Guest:I could play like two Bob Dylan songs on acoustic guitar.
Guest:But there was a summer program that if you could just pay the money and show up, then they'd accept you.
Guest:And I just worked really, really hard.
Guest:So I got accepted into the regular school.
Marc:And for guitar.
Guest:I think my major was, you know, I switched it to bass.
Guest:I was going to try voice, but then I just could never figure out how, when people would try to teach you how to sing, I never got it.
Marc:But when you were a kid, were you like some sort of wizard?
Guest:No, not remotely.
Guest:I would not be one of those people posting YouTube videos of myself.
Guest:you know playing guitar it i was i didn't know what i didn't well i don't think personality wise you'd be that kind of person yeah anyways would you but i really didn't you know i think for me learning how to sing was just doing it 10 million times um you know so i learned how to play bass there but uh you know it was one of those things like i liked music but i didn't really know if i had any talent or not can you kick ass on the bass
Guest:I'm pretty good, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I have a good feel.
Guest:I'm not like a... You're not flea.
Guest:I'm not flea.
Guest:I'm no flea.
Guest:You can't pop.
Guest:I used to do that until Tuesday.
Guest:There was popping.
Marc:I just listened to two Teal Tuesday records.
Marc:I sat there and I listened to them.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I bought them.
Marc:I came across them in that record store next to UCB and I'm like, I'm going to see her sometime and I'm going to have these records.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that sound was, I can't even imagine, when you listen, or have you listened to them?
Guest:I haven't, uh-uh.
Marc:Like in how long?
Guest:For decades.
Marc:But like, is that a shame closet for you, or is it just part of your growth?
Guest:It's...
Guest:But it's probably both.
Guest:I mean, you know, there's always an impulse to distance yourself from stuff you did that you're like, I'm not into that at all.
Guest:I'd sing in a totally different way.
Marc:You do.
Guest:I mean, there was just, see, I couldn't sing.
Guest:I feel like that demonstrates pretty well that I couldn't sing.
Marc:I don't think that's true.
Marc:I think that the music, the sound of the time, like production-wise, was so specific that
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That I think that you just sang to match what was happening.
Guest:I think some of it was you can never hear yourself because monitors and clubs were so bad.
Guest:So I so it was just shouty, you know, like, I'm trying to shout.
Marc:Voices Carry was is a huge song.
Marc:It's very important to a lot of little girls out there.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I have to assume that you and I'm not trying to be weird or I'm not.
Marc:But I mean, I have to assume you have fans that that probably came to you when they were 14.
Guest:Some.
Guest:I don't know if my audience now is comprised of that much of Till Tuesday people.
Marc:There's got to be a couple.
Marc:That's never happened to you?
Marc:No, I mean, there's some.
Marc:You changed my life?
Marc:The second Till Tuesday record just changed my life?
Guest:Come on, one?
Guest:Now, way less than... I mean, I do get comments on my other records more.
Marc:I think it's a sweet thing.
Guest:Yeah, I agree.
Marc:And do you dismiss those people?
Guest:It's like, oh, that wasn't... No, I don't dismiss it, but nor do I routinely play Voices Carrie when I play shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Have you ever?
Guest:Sometimes I will, depending on if the audience is super awesome and there's a vibe.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know how it is.
Marc:Do you strip it down or do you do it with the whole band or do you do some weird acoustic version?
Guest:Yeah, band doesn't know it.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, we're not rehearsing it.
Guest:We're not.
Guest:Band's like, this is pretty simple.
Guest:It's three chords I can follow along.
Marc:No, don't do it.
Marc:But you didn't grow up in Boston, right?
No.
Guest:No, I just went there to go to school.
Guest:I grew up in Virginia.
Marc:Did you run away from Virginia?
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Like where in Virginia?
Marc:Richmond.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Guest:You know, Richmond is great.
Guest:It just never can get its shit together.
Guest:It feels like it's almost, it could have like a little scene.
Guest:It just can't make it happen.
Marc:It still doesn't?
Guest:Maybe there's a scene that I don't know about, and I don't visit it very often.
Marc:You still have family there?
Guest:They don't live in Richmond anymore.
Marc:They run away, too.
Guest:They live in Virginia, in the middle of nowhere.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like rural?
Guest:Yeah, northern neck.
Marc:I have no idea anything about Virginia.
Marc:Is it like, it's pretty, I've driven through it.
Guest:It's pretty, yeah.
Marc:Richmond, Virginia is a pretty town, but it seems like a lot of those southern cities with a little money.
Marc:Isn't Richmond's tobacco, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:I'm sure.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:I feel like I went there and I think that's where I went to the Philip Morris factory.
Marc:Is that possible?
Guest:That sounds possible.
Marc:When did you leave there?
Guest:When I was 18.
Marc:Right away.
Marc:You're like, bye.
Guest:I went to Boston to go to school, stayed there, never went back.
Marc:And what year was that?
Marc:Like 1978.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you just went to school.
Marc:You didn't go to like start a rock band because you're a fucking rock star.
Guest:I started a, I had like this little punk noise art rock outfit.
Marc:Ah, the noise art rock outfit.
Guest:Called the Young Snakes.
Marc:Ah.
Guest:Fortunately, you did not know about that before I came.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Or you would be quizzing me in a more embarrassing way.
Guest:Is this embarrassing?
Marc:I think it's perfectly reasonable.
Marc:You've evolved into this genius, and I think it's important that people know that I saw you at a laundromat with a braided ponytail.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you live over there?
Guest:Where was it?
Marc:Brookline.
Marc:Brookline, yeah.
Marc:Like right by the Busy Bee Diner.
Guest:I fucking love the Busy Bee.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Peter and his son.
Marc:You remember Peter, the bald guy who owned the place?
Marc:I do.
Marc:And his wife, everybody worked there.
Guest:But do you remember the old guy?
Guest:He was like 80 years old who would come in in a black leather skirt.
Marc:and eat yeah yeah there was that dude yeah no explanation yeah black leather skirt it was weird button down shirt not like you know not wearing a dress I do remember that guy he was like short and he didn't walk very fast right yeah I remember seeing that guy all the time and I assume that it was some sort of problem
Marc:I didn't know that.
Guest:There's no explanation.
Guest:Like he needed easy access for his pocket catheter.
Marc:Something for his problem.
Marc:It didn't strike me as like a fashion choice or he was struggling with any identity issues or that he was.
Marc:It really looked to me like, you know, I don't know what's going on there.
Marc:He's not walking too fast.
Marc:But I didn't remember when he first brought him up.
Marc:But I do remember he almost looked like an old boxer.
Marc:Like his face was kind of flat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you lived right around there?
Guest:Yeah, I lived two blocks from there.
Marc:And the wine press?
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:I don't remember the wine.
Marc:That was that liquor store right there.
Marc:Like that big liquor store right on that block.
Guest:I'm going to guarantee I never went in there.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was not your thing?
Guest:It was not my thing.
Guest:Busy B. That's about it.
Guest:That's my big, yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:And the Superette.
Marc:So I didn't realize that, like I was remembering because I was listening to those records and I'm not trying to embarrass you because you're very comedy friendly.
Guest:Yes, I'm comedy friendly.
Marc:Yeah, you've been hanging around.
Marc:I'm a friend of comedy.
Marc:The alt comedy scene since alt comedy was invented.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I remember seeing you at the original Largo, me being very drunk.
Marc:I think I apologized to you for something that I did, and then I don't remember what it was.
Marc:I don't either.
Marc:Yeah, I've let it go, and clearly it didn't have any impact on you.
Marc:I remember it was at Largo.
Marc:I was shit-faced drunk, and I walked up to you and Michael, and I said something horrible and ridiculous and inappropriate.
Guest:Now I wish I could remember.
Marc:Yeah, I wish I could remember it, too.
Guest:I don't feel like it was that inappropriate.
Marc:Okay, maybe it wasn't.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I also realized that the guitar player from Tilt Tuesday, who I thought was a woman for many years, doesn't he have some connection to Kenny Rogerson, the comic?
Marc:Isn't his wife married to him?
Guest:His sister was married to him, I think.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know this comic.
Guest:I feel bad.
Marc:He's an old Boston guy.
Marc:He's hilarious.
Guest:The old Boston guy that I should know him.
Marc:Yeah, I just want to make sure I knew that connection.
Marc:But where did the connection with you and comedy start?
Guest:From going to comedy nights at Largo.
Marc:That was it?
Guest:And just seeing all you guys, yeah.
Marc:And you just took to it?
Guest:You know, you stick around.
Guest:It's got a small dressing room.
Guest:You go back, you say hi, and you meet people.
Guest:I mean, it's a small place.
Guest:It's hard after a while.
Marc:Were you a comedy person growing up?
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:I mean, I, in fact, was, you know, had that, I don't know.
Guest:I never wanted to see comedy.
Guest:I think, honestly, I probably thought that people would splash me with something in the front row.
Guest:I think I thought all comedy was Gallagher or something.
Marc:You knew you were going to be embarrassed somehow.
Guest:Yeah, it was going to be embarrassing.
Guest:Yeah, not comfortable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you just stayed away from it.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:But Largo was sort of like this weird creative mecca.
Marc:Like, you performed there as well, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So that's how it all started.
Marc:Is that where you, did you know, like, where did you meet, like, you know, John Bryan, Paul Thomas Anderson, all those fuckers?
Guest:John, I met in Boston because he was, we worked together.
Guest:He was a New Haven guy, and he came up to Boston.
Guest:He was friends with a guy who owned a studio that I did a lot of work at.
Guest:So, yeah, he came out here first, and then a bunch of my friends moved out to L.A., and then I sort of followed him.
Marc:like there was a boston crew yeah of people that uh what was the plan coming to la i mean what did you play at the rat and everything you did right yeah i did all that i played every every club in boston you remember that guy yes i do mitch he was awesome yeah mitch with the voice box and the matted gray hair yeah what happened to that guy
Guest:He's gone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's gone.
Marc:Do you remember Mr. Butch?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I have literally not thought of Mr. Butch in like 30 years.
Marc:I think he's gone, too.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:I don't think it ended well with him.
Guest:God, Mr. Butch, yeah.
Marc:Have you been to Boston lately?
Guest:Not in a while.
Marc:I mean, to play, but not to hang out.
Marc:It's all erased.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's neighborhoods that used to be really dumpy that are like- Somerville?
Guest:Yeah, happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whoever thought Somerville would be.
Marc:Somerville was almost like it was the building equivalent of cancer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was like, it literally, it felt malignant to me.
Marc:I felt like I lived there for two years.
Marc:I thought I was living in a cancerous laundry.
Guest:Yeah, those sort of collaborate houses that really, yeah, that really, with a chain link fence around the tiny yard.
Marc:Yeah, and there was, I just remember cigarette smoking everywhere.
Marc:It was the first time I came in contact with the Dunkin' Donuts big one.
Marc:Like I remember when Dunkin' Donuts first started making these coffees and I had to have it.
Marc:It's all Somerville related.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was there when Red Bones opened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the beginning of it.
Marc:That was the beginning.
Marc:So.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's let's let's talk about the shift from being a post punk pop goddess.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:To to this, like, you know, amazing, empowered singer songwriter lady.
Marc:Can I do that?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:Please.
Marc:Because the difference between, there was like, what, three or four years between the last Till Tuesday record and your first record?
Guest:That's probably true, yeah.
Guest:Well, we got into one of those typical record company situations where they said, well, we don't know if we want to renew your contract because we're not really into what you're doing, but...
Guest:We don't want to let you go either because you might go have a hit with someone else.
Guest:So you're a prisoner?
Guest:Yeah, a prisoner for three years.
Marc:The whole band was?
Guest:Well, at that point, it wasn't much of a band.
Guest:It was me and the drummer, the keyboard player, and the guitar player had left to do other things.
Marc:Yeah, how'd that work out?
I can't.
Guest:You know, people are happy.
Guest:Good for them.
Guest:And honestly, like I was, you know, I was writing in a totally different style.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, how does that start?
Marc:I mean, because like I listen to your music and it makes me thoughtful and sad in a good way.
Yeah.
Marc:I can honestly emotionally only handle so much at a time in a good way.
Marc:Are you being insulted right now?
Marc:No.
Guest:That makes sense to me.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Guest:I am the same way.
Marc:When I talk to musicians, it's not my wheelhouse.
Marc:I can play the guitar, but not well.
Marc:I remember one time I tried to play with... We've done some jamming.
Marc:I tried to play with Michael, and then it got ugly very quickly.
Guest:No, what happened?
Marc:You were sitting over here that night you guys came over.
Guest:What did he say?
Marc:Well, nothing.
Marc:All I know how to do is noodle with blues and play dumb blues leads.
Guest:More than I know how to do.
Guest:I can just play chords.
Guest:Right.
Marc:At least you can noodle.
Marc:Yeah, but they're great.
Marc:I remember I was noodling, and Michael was like, yeah, there's that, and there's all...
Guest:He's a tough customer in every respect.
Marc:I'm sitting here with two pop wizards doing my sad country blues licks, feeling very small.
Marc:I was beaten down by the popcock that night, is what happened.
Marc:The chords won.
Guest:I can sadly... Michael has... He's got a face that really sort of...
Guest:puts you in your place because his face is so immobile and he keeps such a strong face.
Marc:Not an easy read that Michael.
Guest:Not a read.
Guest:There's no read.
Guest:How long have you been married?
Guest:15 years.
Guest:That's amazing isn't it?
Guest:It's amazing yeah.
Guest:How did you meet that guy?
Guest:I think through a producer that we had both worked with.
Marc:And does he influence you?
Guest:He's music has influenced me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I not sort of like I hear stuff that he works on now, but but having been a fan of his, he has a he has a very interesting approach to chords and there's certain kind of chords that he uses.
Guest:And I was definitely influenced by that.
Marc:Like the whole pop thing, like in terms of using all those fancy minor chords and like I'm very much a one, four, five person.
Marc:I'm just a blues based.
Guest:I got to stick minor in.
Guest:I got to stick some minors in there.
Marc:There's always that weird curveball minor where you're like, oh, where are we now?
Marc:And then, you know, you have melody and all that stuff.
Marc:I mean, who were the primary, like when you were younger and starting to come into your own musically, I mean, what were the bands that were like, holy fuck, I need to do that?
Guest:I was more interested in the kind of great songwriters, and it wasn't really about the band and the spectacle of the band for me.
Guest:I mean, I love the Beatles, obviously, but I didn't really care that much for the Rolling Stones.
Marc:See, there you go.
Guest:Yeah, so you're on that.
Guest:You're on the other side.
Marc:I just bought the Beatles box.
Marc:I mean, I get the Beatles.
Guest:I'm not sure you get them.
Guest:I'm not sure you get them.
Marc:Here's what I say about the Beatles.
Marc:Anytime I listen to a Beatles album after the first three, I say, where the fuck did this come from?
Marc:If I listen to Revolver, I'm like, this is timeless.
Marc:I don't know where it came from.
Marc:They were tapped in.
Marc:They were channeling some sort of mystical, eternal vibration that I completely appreciate it.
Marc:I just bought the box.
Marc:What do you want from me?
Marc:I'm not going to buy a Rolling Stones box.
Guest:That's exactly what I want from you.
Marc:To know that I bought the box?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you buy it?
Marc:No.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because you have them already?
Guest:No, because I'm lazy.
Guest:I'm like literally too fucking lazy to listen to music.
Marc:When was the last time you listened to Revolver on vinyl?
Guest:A million years ago.
Marc:See?
Marc:Why aren't you living the life?
Guest:It's ridiculous.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We don't even have like a turntable set up.
Guest:Or we have one and it's broken.
Guest:But we're too lazy to get it fixed.
Marc:You live in that small gothic castle up there in...
Marc:Where you live.
Guest:You can't underestimate my laziness.
Guest:You really can't.
Marc:I remember being over there and it was like a museum of things.
Marc:I cannot believe Michael does not have a fucking turntable.
Guest:We have one and it's broken.
Guest:Actually, we just discussed it.
Guest:That's our Christmas present to each other is that we're going to get a new turntable, a new amplifier.
Guest:We're going to set it up and fucking listen to records.
Marc:You're just going to sit there and listen to records spitefully.
Marc:We owe this to ourselves.
Guest:Yes, that's right.
Guest:We're musicians, damn it.
Marc:We should have this.
Guest:Yeah, this is our working out.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Are you going to buy a fancy tube app?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, tubes.
Marc:That's what I did.
Marc:I bought tubes.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:And now I sit there and I go, am I telling him a difference?
Marc:I think I'm telling a difference.
Marc:I can tell the difference.
Guest:He will say that he can tell the difference.
Marc:Of course he will.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:That's good enough for me.
Marc:He has to say that.
Guest:Yeah, that's good enough.
Marc:If he were to say to you, like, if you were to go out and spend $12,000, which is too much, don't do that.
Marc:Yeah, we're not doing that.
Marc:Let's say hypothetically, you go spend $12,000 on a Macintosh and you sat down with Michael and he said, I don't get it.
Marc:You would have to videotape that moment.
Marc:I would.
Marc:But what do you mean songwriters?
Marc:Just like Leonard McCartney or like Cole Porter?
Marc:What are we talking about?
Guest:Well, I really, really liked early Elton John stuff.
Guest:I thought that his melodies are just terrific.
Guest:It is amazing, isn't it?
Guest:And I kind of appreciated that the lyrics attempted to tell a different story every time.
Guest:I did think that was interesting.
Guest:Neil Young, you know.
Marc:yeah he's another guy like both of those guys like outside of a couple records they're sort of timeless yeah i think your music's like that too i think that they're outside of what you know the till tuesday stuff which is production dated yeah that like any of your records like you could be like this could happen anytime that is very sweet of you to say thank you that's exactly the compliment that i would like to get
Marc:You're timeless artist.
Marc:There's nothing dating any of you, except for your emotional fluctuations throughout it all.
Guest:Sometimes up, sometimes much not up.
Marc:What is the uppest?
Marc:Are there celebratory songs?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Have you ever written a song where you're like, oh, this is too fucking chipper?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:As soon as I start, it's just boring.
Guest:I mean, it's dull to me.
Guest:I just think it's, you know, I can't keep an interest in it.
Marc:In writing a happy song?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I guess because, I don't know, like supposedly the essence of drama is conflict.
Guest:So there's no conflict.
Guest:It's just there's no like it's not, you know, it's just not that interesting.
Yeah.
Marc:When you started writing songs that were more in the voice that you sing in now and that you feel in now, because your voice is completely different, and obviously the writing style is completely different.
Marc:Was there a moment where you knew that you were onto something?
Marc:Can you write for yourself effectively?
Marc:Was there a moment where you're like, oh, this is who I am?
Guest:Yeah, there's probably songs that were more in the wheelhouse or inspired by the older stuff that I used to listen to, like Neil Young-y acoustic guitar stuff.
Guest:I think that is always kind of more in my wheelhouse.
Guest:That's where I feel really solid.
Marc:Do you think that Neil Young plays exceedingly long guitar solos live?
Guest:I've never seen him live.
Guest:What do you do?
Guest:You just sit at home?
Guest:There's a lot of sitting at home.
Guest:You've never seen him live?
Guest:I go to comedy shows.
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:I have a life of some... You just did a video with Tom Sharpling for your song?
Guest:I know people.
Marc:And that was based on your old video, right?
Guest:Sometimes there's iChats.
Marc:I don't even do that anymore.
Guest:Sometimes there's Twitter with Dave Anthony.
Marc:I used to iChat with you back in the day.
Guest:Sometimes he said something horribly insulting.
Marc:I'm all worked up because of him right now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I know that there's just a nightmare going on in my Twitter feed right now.
Guest:Yeah, I keep hearing you're getting alerts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're twitching every time the alert happens.
Marc:Where are those coming in from?
Marc:Is it my phone?
Guest:I hope it's not mine because then I'll feel really terrible.
Marc:Well, yeah, my computer, it must have been mine.
Marc:I apologize.
Marc:So, all right, so what about that Sharpling video?
Marc:That was a riff on the old days, right?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:We're both friends with Sharpling.
Guest:I think he is the fucking greatest.
Guest:I think he's the greatest.
Guest:I think he's got the greatest ideas.
Guest:He's great to work with.
Marc:But I watched the videos.
Marc:That was the one in Jon Hamm's in it, too, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was a takeoff on your old music video, right?
Marc:Yeah, it was a shot-by-shot remake of Voices Carrie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was very funny.
Guest:It was really good.
Guest:Not my idea.
Marc:It was all Tom's idea.
Guest:Of course, yeah.
Marc:And to see Jon Hamm actually do some character work, that was good.
Guest:Unusual to see him do comedy.
Marc:It never happens.
Marc:He tries to.
Marc:I mean, he does it.
Marc:He shows up in movies, but he's usually some version of himself.
Marc:That was literally the first time I ever saw him do sort of a broad...
Guest:Oh, he's done a ton of comedy.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But that broad, like he was actually like talking in an accent and doing the whole business.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:I think Jon Hamm is pretty great.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's talk about all the fucked up relationships that made great songs for you.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:oh yes oh yes let's let's write a list of names let's let's decode some of the albums like um like what was the last one i always was in the forgotten arm now are there a lot of songs based on a particular person on that on that album yeah and who's that person
Guest:A friend of mine who is a very hardcore drug addict.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Who probably is not sober to this date.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And someone used to date back in the day?
Marc:No.
Marc:Just a friend of yours?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I just, because I know that like I am a drug addict person and I'm crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I know that you're not.
Guest:Oh, I'm fucking crazy.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know you're crazy, but you're not a drug addict.
Guest:No, I'm not a drug addict.
Marc:You're the compliment to us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so what was it?
Marc:What was the relationship with this?
Marc:What's fascinating about, you know, what was his struggle that resonated with you?
Guest:I mean, I think I relate to the drug addiction struggle because I relate to the intractable obsessive thinking.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I've struggled with that all my life.
Guest:And, you know, anxiety and depression and, you know, just literal craziness.
Guest:Like where you're doing and thinking and saying things that are completely antithetical to your value system or what you consider your personality.
Guest:And, you know, just acting like a crazy person.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Have you figured out how to fix it?
Guest:Can you help me out?
Guest:Yeah, but you know the answers.
Guest:I know we have the same approach.
Guest:You work the program.
Marc:A bit, but the anxiety thing.
Marc:Do you experience prolonged depressions?
Marc:Because I've decided that my anxiety actually causes me to be overwhelmed and then manufacture depression.
Guest:oh that's interesting like I don't feel like I'm clinically or chemically depressed I feel like I get so consumed with panic that I literally go into some sort of weird seizure I think and I that that actually that makes total sense because I think what happens is that anxiety when you get so overwhelmed it shuts your system down because it thinks that depression is going to keep you you know help you go under the wave and and right you know and shut down and almost like a kind of hibernation right yeah
Marc:So that happens to you, too?
Guest:Yeah, I've experienced.
Guest:I get overwhelmed very easily, so I have to be really careful.
Guest:I mean, some of it is self-care.
Guest:You don't stay up late.
Guest:You don't get overwhelmed.
Guest:You don't get involved in overly intense.
Guest:You keep the intensity at bay.
Guest:I mean, it's like you have to be really careful.
Guest:You have to be careful.
Marc:It's exhausting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Your feelings follow your thinking.
Guest:So you have to be careful about what you're saying.
Marc:Drama.
Guest:No drama.
Guest:Good luck.
Guest:I know it's hard.
Guest:It's really hard because drama is very distracting.
Guest:And if you're depressed or anxious, you think drama is going to be like it.
Guest:Drama feels like an answer.
Marc:But it's not a conscious decision like that.
Marc:Nope.
Marc:Right?
Marc:It's just happening.
Marc:All of a sudden you're yelling and there's something broken and someone's crying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like, how'd we get here?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you're like, I don't know, but I feel relieved and apologetic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you guys fight a lot?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:We're not fighters.
Guest:I'm not a thrower.
Guest:No fighting?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But the drama's always just internal, you know, obsessing about stuff.
Marc:Do you use like songwriting and the poetry of it all to to sort of, you know, live the drama out in a safe way?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know if it works that way.
Guest:I mean, I do think that there's something that that's positive about writing about it, if only to to kind of delineate what you're really feeling and thinking.
Marc:Do you write every day?
Guest:I've started to, but I never did before.
Guest:Just in the last couple months, I make a point of sitting down and doing a little writing every day.
Guest:Not on tour, but when I'm at home.
Marc:Is it journaling kind of stuff, or is it like actual songwriting?
Guest:I pick up the guitar and I actually work on stuff, yeah.
Guest:I don't write down anything in a journal or a notebook anymore.
Guest:that's those days are behind you yeah i just don't i don't because i don't know i think it's it's it's kind of you because it's not about the you know what what you're working on is is i don't know it's more about staying present yeah you have to stay present for the song you're working on you know you kind of making notes on other thing and then trying to jam them into the thing you're doing now does usually start with like a phrase it's all it's always starts with music almost always really yeah so you get a melody first
Guest:Yeah, because because the music puts you in a mood and then you're like in that mood and then it's easier to write about it.
Guest:Like it's almost, you know, this kind of, you know, recall.
Guest:But but see, that's why it's it's dangerous, because if you come up on a piece of music that really triggers you in a certain direction, I mean, I can get into a weird place.
Guest:It's not, you know, yeah.
Marc:Like, just because of the tone of it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, the feeling of the chords?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it has that effect.
Marc:I mean, there are songs, like, because I'm not a huge... You get triggered.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not a huge... Well, triggered's a sort of the clinical phrase for inspired, I think, on some...
Guest:I'm going to say that it's at least half trigger, like maybe part inspiration, but part triggering.
Guest:I have to be careful because sometimes I have to go, you know what?
Guest:This is great, but it is not worth it to get into some weird crying jag because suddenly I'm back in 1963.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just from chords?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it definitely happened.
Marc:But can you identify where you go?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, it's funny because a lot of it is like, you know, when you tell somebody a dream and then you hear the words come out of your mouth and you're like, Jesus Christ, that's so obvious.
Guest:But, you know, when you're having the dream, it doesn't seem obvious.
Guest:It's kind of like that.
Guest:I'll write something.
Guest:I'll write a line.
Guest:I'll sing it back to myself.
Guest:And they go, holy shit.
Guest:You know, and it just is like...
Guest:the sort of obvious heartbreaking thing that I have to set aside.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like in your mind, I mean, is like, because I definitely know some of my first experiences with feeling, I don't know if I could identify trauma or not, but there are certain chord progressions that used to consistently take me to another place.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was a relatively comfortable place, but it wasn't a happy place.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:um and and i don't know like there are songs that i would hear when i was a kid that would you know literally you know you'll make me cry yeah because of the story but for me like i'm a big chords person like i'm not a big listener of words like i i have to be moved by by the music and certain things just you know but i i rarely can identify a place that they take me back to other than just a feeling
Guest:I think it's probably more a function of writing it yourself, you know, and you write it and you read it back and then you, you know, you're like, obviously I know what that refers to, even though when I wrote it, I just thought it was a line.
Marc:What was your childhood like?
Marc:What did your old man do?
Guest:Um, he was in advertising, but, um, you know, my childhood was pretty fragmented.
Guest:My mother left when I was three years old.
Guest:There was a lot of drama around that because she ran off with a, with a guy and he was married and, and they took me and my father didn't know where I was.
Guest:And it, you know, this, it was just like a lot of, really, yeah, it was a lot of drama.
Marc:How did that play out?
Guest:I was eventually found and brought back, but, you know, it was probably like nine months later.
Marc:So you were a three-year-old.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your mom kidnapped you with this dude that she ran off with who was also married and took you to another state or?
Guest:Out of the country.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Am I supposed to know this?
Guest:No.
Guest:You mean like should you not know me?
Marc:Well, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I mean like I don't know if we ever talked about it before.
Guest:I don't think so.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So this is from Virginia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And where'd they take you?
Guest:I think we were, we wound up in England, but I think we spent some time in Germany.
Guest:I remember being in Amsterdam.
Guest:What was the plan?
Guest:I don't know what the plan was.
Guest:I think he was going to get a job.
Marc:The guy was?
Guest:And just move.
Guest:Yeah, they were moving there.
Marc:Just overnight-ish.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did they both get divorced before they did this?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And he took his kids because he had kids, yeah.
Marc:So it's like, here's your new family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:I have a brother.
Marc:And he didn't get taken?
Guest:No.
Guest:But he was older.
Marc:How much older?
Guest:And he is also, you know, like I was a very tractable child and he is he you know, he's the guy who sees stuff and tells it like it is.
Guest:So I think it would probably been not a great not a great move.
Guest:You know, if he was he was taken along with that.
Guest:I mean, he would have you know, he would have found a phone and called somebody probably.
Marc:Is he around?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, he does.
Marc:He live over here.
Guest:He's in Virginia or he's in D.C.,
Marc:Are you in touch?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're good?
Guest:Yeah, we're good.
Marc:So, wait.
Marc:So, now I'm a little fascinated with the back story.
Guest:It's a crazy story.
Marc:Well, I've only gotten the beginning of it here.
Marc:So, you're kidnapped.
Marc:You're taken abroad.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:By your mother who's had enough and run off with this man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was this a guy from the neighborhood?
Marc:Somebody that your father knew?
Guest:Somebody who worked for my father.
Oh, my God.
I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There's a lot of drama.
Guest:There's a lot of drama in it, Mark.
Marc:So did someone have to go international to get you?
Guest:My father had hired a private detective, but I think he found out where I was by accident because...
Guest:You know, he was in advertising.
Guest:He was in the same business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think how I was found was that my father just, you know, in the course of doing business had run into a guy who said, oh, I saw that guy that used to work for you.
Guest:And it was him.
Guest:And he was like, oh, well, where did you see him?
Marc:So you were just missing?
Marc:I was missing.
Marc:And your mother was just missing?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So there was all that for your dad was like, you know, are they dead?
Guest:No, I mean, I think he knew what the game, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I'd gone, you know, I was visiting them and I never came back, you know, we never, she never brought me back.
Marc:Okay, so does your father fly overseas and get you?
Guest:I don't you know, I don't know.
Guest:I think she flew back with me and then I and I was taken to my grandparents for a month, which is crazy.
Guest:Like, I mean, it's all fucking crazy.
Marc:Have you ever kind of like sat them down or him down and gotten the deets on this?
Guest:Yeah, he's told he told me most of this.
Guest:She obviously doesn't.
Guest:I know her now, but I didn't you know, I sort of didn't really see her until, you know, I got back in touch with her in my mid 20s.
Guest:But she obviously doesn't really want to talk about it.
Marc:So she was out of the picture that whole time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's bananas.
Guest:Oh, here's another detail.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think we were all staying at a hotel or something, and I was three years old playing by myself in the parking lot, and he hit me with a car and knocked me unconscious.
Marc:The other guy.
Guest:Yeah, the guy, the boyfriend.
Marc:On purpose?
Guest:Probably not.
Guest:Probably not.
Guest:But he did yell at me for causing an accident.
Marc:For being in the street in front of his car.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:I've never heard of child abuse where the child was hit by an automobile.
Marc:You were not just hit, you were hit by an automobile and then blamed for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, look, it was only a VW bug.
Marc:Oh, so, you know, you could have won.
Marc:I could have.
Marc:You should have stood up to the car, kid.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I was wearing my Superman outfit.
Marc:So he was just testing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's testing you.
Marc:Are they still together?
Marc:No.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you grow up with your dad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who's a good guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's a good guy.
Marc:He took care of you.
Guest:And yeah, and he got remarried and she had a couple of kids.
Guest:Yeah, you know, it was like chaos, chaos, chaos.
Marc:But was she all right?
Marc:And now, how about these half siblings?
Guest:I'm friendly with them, but I don't talk to them very often.
Marc:But you're closest with your brother.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you talk to your dad occasionally.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Did you sort it out with him?
Marc:Did you, like, was there ever a sort of sit down?
Marc:We're cool.
Marc:You're cool?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, we're cool.
Marc:Isn't it weird when people ask you stuff like that?
Marc:Like, so did you ever resolve that with your parents?
Marc:How do you do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, there's no, like, there's no conversation you can have where you're like, all right, can you just, you know, give me back what you took?
Marc:Or could you give me what you didn't give me now?
Marc:And they're like, no.
Marc:It doesn't.
Marc:All right.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:It doesn't work.
Guest:I mean, honestly, like, my...
Guest:My attitude is life is messy for everybody.
Guest:It's hard out there, man.
Guest:And I get it.
Guest:I certainly understand and have compassion for why you make decisions that don't seem smart and end up damaging other people.
Guest:Because sometimes the right answer is not obvious.
Guest:And everybody's crazy.
Guest:Everybody's operating at a deficit, and everybody's operating out of obsession and fear and desperation and longing.
Marc:Need for relief and comfort.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:Nurturing.
Guest:Yeah, life is messy.
Marc:It fucking is, right?
Marc:I know, man.
Marc:It's not hard for anybody.
Marc:It's not easy for anyone.
Guest:I don't think so.
Marc:Isn't that weird when you realize that?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I was at a thing yesterday, the secret meetings, and
Marc:And they were talking about humility.
Marc:And there are these words that get thrown around a lot, like humility and self-centered fear and that kind of stuff.
Marc:But when you really start to realize that all that fear is so infantile in the way it's formed.
Marc:It's like, why can't I have that?
Marc:Or you can't have this.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, don't take that from me and please give me that or I'm not going to get enough and that kind of shit.
Marc:And then humility.
Marc:Like, I don't think that I was a full person until my heart was destroyed.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's and I don't know that that's an unusual way for it to happen.
Guest:It's sometimes.
Guest:Yeah, sometimes that's the way it has to happen.
Marc:I mean, like, well, it sounds to me like, you know, with you and I think that with me as well because of emotional neglect that, you know, people underestimate just how fucking heartbreaking all of it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a rare person that was so thoroughly nurtured and properly cared for that that original heartbreak doesn't exist.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The heartbreak of being born...
Guest:I know.
Guest:And parenting's hard.
Guest:You know, parenting's hard.
Guest:I don't know how people do it.
Guest:I really don't.
Marc:How come you've avoided children having them come out of you or buying one?
Guest:Well, I never really wanted to.
Guest:I mean, I never had that maternal thing where, you know, I don't think babies are that cute.
Guest:I think kittens are cute.
Guest:That's as close as I can come.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I don't really have a maternal thing.
Guest:I just thought it would be a disaster to, you know, to have a child.
Guest:And also, like, I think you really do need to have a consistent role model to, you know, of parenting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To pass that on to your kids.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Easily overwhelmed, easily stressed, prone to heavy panic and anxiety.
Guest:That's not a great parent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not good for a kid if they're panicking and you're like, I don't know what to do either.
Marc:Oh, totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I had those parents.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:It's terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you're like, what?
Guest:I'm three.
Guest:I'm supposed to figure it out?
Guest:No guidance at all here?
Guest:I'm a toddler.
Guest:You want me to figure out?
Marc:oh my god oh but the humility thing like i just like the great gift of being left which which i you know we became friends for that brief window in time right after that shit went down yeah and you know there was no seeing my way through it at that time you know i was devastated but you know as as the the one thing it taught me
Marc:was my own personal emotional limitations.
Marc:There's nothing like heartbreak, if you handle it properly, to realize that you don't have control over other people.
Marc:Things are going to happen that you don't see coming.
Marc:You may have behaved in a certain way.
Marc:All the things that you're supposed to learn as an adult can happen with heartbreak if you don't get bitter and decide to hate women.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And which direction did you go in?
Marc:I went the good way, the hating women way.
Marc:I'm going to protect myself from all of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I'm very I'm much I was humbled and I needed it.
Guest:It's tough to to to really fully accept.
Guest:And I, you know, part of the program, like I work on this literally every day.
Guest:The idea that you cannot control other people, you can't control what they think they are going to think bad shit about you, maybe.
Marc:You shouldn't assume that or decide that that's happening.
Guest:But you can't you can't control it.
Guest:Like it's not it's not up to you.
Guest:And, you know, the other thing that the way to look at it that helps me is I go like, look, people deserve the dignity to have their own thoughts and feelings, even if they're negatively about you.
Guest:But why do you assume that people are being negative about you?
Guest:It's when it is.
Guest:Or when there's a fear.
Guest:You know what that's like.
Marc:No, I do, but a lot of times.
Guest:When you say something, you're like, oh my God, they think I'm a jerk.
Guest:What can I do?
Guest:And you're like, you can't do anything.
Marc:But that's still something you're making up.
Guest:You make events, maybe.
Marc:But you're making it up.
Marc:I mean, most of the time I think people are like, that guy's a dick or that guy's this.
Marc:And like, you know what they're thinking about themselves?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, rarely, unless you have a tremendous amount of very focused, horrible charisma, you know, do you like, you know, leave that big?
Marc:I happen to have those things.
Marc:But do you leave an impression that's really contemptible?
Guest:But suppose, you know, I guess my point is, you know, like, well, what if it's true?
Guest:What if they do think you're a dick?
Guest:I mean, sometimes the answer is they do think you're a dick and you just have to accept it and say they're allowed to think that.
Guest:really you can't try to sell them on another way yeah no but you don't know me that was the one but it's it's the striving is exhausting don't you think like the striving and the maneuvering and the manipulating like you know how about if i dance over here like what about this joke or suppose some flattery suppose i stick that in or how could i bond what about eye contact yeah maybe that'll yeah yeah oh we're so self-conscious yeah that's not a terrible thing though
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think that self-awareness is good.
Marc:Self-consciousness, that can be a little bit of an obstacle.
Guest:Yeah, self-consciousness to me is the worrying what other people think of me.
Guest:And then self-awareness is like being aware that I'm worrying about it and accepting that I can't change it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But what about the other part, which is like there's a real good chance that I'm manufacturing all of this and that person does not think these things at all.
Guest:Yeah, I guess just accepting that, you know, accepting the word, you know, that like maybe it is true and maybe it's not, but you have to accept it either way.
Marc:To me, that's comforting.
Marc:I just can't imagine that there are people actively hating on you right now.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's like you want everybody to think you're awesome.
Guest:You know how that is.
Guest:It's awesome or nothing, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I've let some of that go.
Marc:I'm just trying not to die broke and have health insurance.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the big agenda.
Marc:And also trying to manage my girlfriend somehow.
Marc:I should be going.
Guest:Manage.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know that.
Marc:You know the managing thing?
Marc:Managing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Managing control.
Marc:No, I can't.
Marc:No, I have no control, but I think I can apply some management skills.
Yeah.
Guest:Is that wrong?
Guest:You know, we have a program for this.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I've avoided it.
Marc:I hold it responsible for destroying my marriage, which needed to happen.
Marc:I'm adverse.
Marc:I'm Al-Anon adverse.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you're three years old.
Marc:You get abducted.
Marc:You're brought back.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And your dad's like, okay, your mom's crazy.
Guest:No, he doesn't talk about it.
Marc:But even then?
Marc:There's no conversation.
Guest:Oh, there's zero.
Guest:Yeah, there's not any conversation.
Marc:So as a child growing up, knowing that this mother is elsewhere and you're not in touch with her at all, I mean, what was the narrative in the house?
Guest:There was no conversation about it.
Guest:There was no narrative.
Marc:She's just gone?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you knew she wasn't dead.
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:I, you know, my response, you know, my pathology, if you will, is dissociation.
Guest:And I, you know, I was just, I was just, you know, in a profoundly dissociated state.
Guest:And I didn't do a lot of thinking about it or wondering, you know, I was just, I was just sleepwalking.
Marc:Through most of your life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So you were numb.
Marc:I'm trying to understand.
Marc:So you just, you know, in all ways, that the trauma of whatever happened when you were like three kind of disassociated you from everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because it just shattered your world.
Guest:Like, you know, I guess, I guess.
Guest:You know, I think that just being separated from a parent induces this real paralyzing fear because, you know, you feel that your life is really dependent on your, you know, your parent being, you know, caring about you and literally feeding you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I, you know, and I think just the interruption in caregiving was very tough because I, you know, when I left my father, I didn't see him for nine months, which is an enormous amount of time for a three-year-old.
Guest:A three-year-old, yeah.
Guest:And then when I came back, he was kind of like a stranger.
Guest:And then I didn't see my mother.
Guest:So I think I just had that thing of like, I felt very, very untethered from people.
Guest:I didn't know how to connect to people in any kind of way.
Marc:Do you have abandonment shit now?
Guest:Oh, huge.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I mean, you know, it's like I deal with it and process it all the time.
Guest:But it's always like encroaching.
Guest:Like it's very easily triggered.
Marc:Well, because it seems like even in the tone of your music that there is that, I don't even, it's hard to tell, but no one sounds like you.
Marc:And it's not just about the way you're singing, but just the way the chords are and the way the sound of it is.
Marc:And it's like hearing this story, it kind of makes sense that you've created this own space.
Marc:And it's not a longing.
Marc:It's almost like an acceptance of a heavy heartedness.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:To accept?
Marc:No, I mean in the sound of the day.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I mean, I'm sure that the chords and melodies that I gravitate towards, I probably gravitate towards because they have a certain resonance for me, for whatever the bigger things are.
Marc:And when you reached out to your mother, what brought that on?
Guest:Um, my brother worked in the town that she lived in and got in touch with her.
Guest:So, you know, we, we, we saw her and, you know, we went together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, he called you and said, I found her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he got in touch with her and then we went out to see her for, it was like on Christmas or something.
Marc:And what state was her life in?
Guest:Um, you know, I don't know.
Guest:I think, uh, I honestly, like, I don't know how to, I think she, she's kind of depressed maybe.
Guest:I mean, I don't really, you know.
Marc:What was the, what was the, what the feeling when you did it, when you showed up?
Marc:I mean, was she open to it or did you kind of like, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but, you know, I mean, I do always have the sense that there's, you know, just she doesn't want to really talk about the past too much.
Marc:Does she have another family and whatnot?
Guest:She had two kids with this guy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And I'm friendly with them.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are any of them in show business?
Guest:Um, the, the, my sister, uh, Gretchen Sechrist is her, is her name.
Guest:She's an amazing painter and she's, she kind of writes poetry and she writes songs.
Guest:She's unbelievably creative.
Marc:She's your half sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's kind of phenomenal.
Guest:And, and, um, and my brother, uh, Christian is, is, uh, he sort of does advertising, but I think he paints and he's, you know, artistic and, you know, and they're like very super creative family.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Was your dad like a madman kind of advertising?
Marc:Was it that era?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He worked in the advertising department of a pharmaceutical company.
Guest:So he was like the client.
Guest:More the client.
Marc:Take these.
Guest:Well, Robitussin.
Marc:Not that exciting.
Marc:You've handled this argument before.
Marc:Take the Robitussin.
Marc:Eat coffee.
Marc:It's not like Happy Pills.
Marc:It's cough syrup.
Marc:It's not bad.
Marc:It helps kids.
Marc:You said that quick enough to know that when you've introduced the idea that your father was in advertising for the pharmaceutical companies, you got a lot of those looks like, oh, a bad guy, huh?
Marc:No, it's cough syrup.
Guest:It's nice for kids who are sick.
Marc:And like I so is it interesting to you that that like when you and Michael got together because he comes from a fairly publicly nutty family.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's got a couple of nutty brothers.
Marc:I mean, what was the interface there?
Marc:Were you guys like do it together?
Marc:Did you form like a human island of protection from the nuttiness?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think Michael's response to his family was to go into his room and play his guitar.
Guest:And I think that was, we probably were pretty similar in that.
Marc:Disassociated.
Guest:Yeah, both in our room focusing on some other thing.
Marc:When did you start doing the guitar?
Guest:When I was like 12, I got mono.
Guest:So I was out for three weeks and I was super bored.
Guest:So I taught myself some chords on the guitar.
Yeah.
Marc:Whose guitar was it?
Guest:One of my brothers.
Marc:Just hanging around?
Guest:Had gotten it for Christmas.
Guest:It was back in a closet.
Marc:Were your brothers like rockers?
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:One of them was kind of sporty.
Guest:How many you got?
Guest:One of them was like a- Oh, you have one whole brother.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My real brother, I think, was more the bad seed of the neighborhood.
Guest:He was kind of a bad boy.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Knocking mailboxes off and-
Guest:Probably, yeah.
Guest:There's probably some mailboxes getting knocked off.
Marc:I think mono has helped a lot of creative people make that first leap into it.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Being stuck in one place and bored out of your mind is the key to creativity.
Marc:And once you started playing guitar, that was it?
Marc:You sort of felt like that was the magic?
Guest:You know, I mean, honestly, like once again, I was not like I didn't really have that much talent.
Guest:I mean, you know, I could play a couple of songs and I liked it.
Guest:You have and I like the idea of it.
Marc:But I really you have immense talent.
Marc:Maybe it was not realized at that moment.
Guest:I think that what was key for me was learning some stuff, learning some structure, and how chord progressions work together.
Guest:And as soon as I learned that, it really opened a door.
Guest:But I'm a person who needs a lot of structure in order to be creative on top of it.
Marc:You paint too, right?
Guest:I do some, yeah.
Marc:I remember there was painting going on.
Guest:That's some real amateur shit, yeah.
Marc:And you have cats.
Guest:Love the cats.
Marc:How many you got?
Marc:Two.
Marc:I lost one, you know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm sorry to hear that.
Guest:What's your cat situation now?
Marc:I got the two inside, and they're acting all freaked out all the time.
Marc:I don't know what that's about.
Marc:It seems like monkeys lost a patch of hair.
Marc:I don't know where it went or why.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You know anything about that?
Marc:Just a bald?
Marc:There's a bald patch.
Guest:Was it just a fight patch?
Marc:No, I don't know who he's fighting with.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:There's no blood or anything.
Marc:I just noticed it today.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I heard sometimes that fleas can cause hair loss.
Guest:Oh, I don't like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do they run around outside?
Marc:No, they don't.
Marc:No?
Marc:I don't know what the hell.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:What cat place do you go to?
Guest:Los Feliz Animal Hospital.
Guest:That little place.
Marc:Is it good?
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, you know.
Marc:I go to Gateway.
Guest:We haven't been there in a while.
Marc:Yeah, you don't want to take them in.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:You really don't want to take them in.
Marc:It's the worst.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I have two in the house, and then there's now, I think the strays that ran off Boomer.
Marc:I don't know what happened to Boomer.
Marc:I'm assuming a coyote.
Marc:It's either a coyote or he's living somewhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I hope he's living somewhere.
Guest:Picked up another house.
Marc:Yeah, I guess they do that.
Marc:What the fuck is that about?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Better food?
Guest:What were you feeding him?
Guest:Dry food?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I was.
Marc:Someone puts out some wet food and that's the end of it.
Marc:Just like people.
Guest:You got taken by wet food.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The wet food pushers down the street.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:So now I got this weird black deaf cat.
Marc:There's a deaf stray cat.
Marc:Can you imagine that life?
Marc:What do you mean deaf cat?
Marc:Deaf cat.
Marc:He can't hear.
Marc:He can't hear anything.
Marc:And he's living in the wild.
Marc:Cannot hear.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:It is crazy.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Like you can walk right up to it and he won't know you're there until he sees you and then he just explodes away.
Marc:It's not good.
Marc:He almost disappears.
Marc:But he's been out there for like a long time.
Marc:Maybe he's got a great sense of smell.
Marc:It's phenomenal.
Marc:Okay, so Paul Thomas Anderson.
Marc:What's up with that guy?
Marc:I rarely do the gossipy type of approach.
Guest:The best segue ever from a deaf cat.
Marc:He would understand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Paul I haven't seen in... You're not friends with him either?
Guest:Forever, yeah.
Marc:Was there a debacle with the Magnolia soundtrack?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:No, he's, you know, he got busy doing movies and living his intense life.
Marc:Is he intense?
Guest:He's pretty intense, yeah.
Marc:Did you see that new movie?
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was something to look at, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think they should have just fucked, though.
Marc:I mean, really, it would have at the end.
Marc:The dudes?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was it...
Guest:Would that have been too hard?
Guest:Is that too much to ask?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Could they just get it on?
Marc:Yeah, fine.
Marc:At the end, I mean, come on.
Marc:Isn't that what we're working towards?
Marc:He's just going to sing to him?
Marc:Like, let's get it on here.
Marc:Let's resolve this fucking thing.
Marc:If you're not going to write about something, if you're going to make it a love story, consummate it.
Marc:You didn't feel that?
Marc:I did not feel it, but you have other desires and urges.
Marc:I don't know if it's based on that.
Marc:I was trying to be objective.
Marc:It's a film critic speaking there.
Marc:I think that that was a love story.
Marc:Wasn't it a love story?
Guest:You know, I think.
Marc:The master we're talking about.
Guest:Yeah, I think there's a lot of themes of father and son themes in his stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's more what it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what about, what's Michael working on now?
Guest:He's scoring girls.
Guest:Oh, he does?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think there's another movie he's working on.
Guest:Yeah, he's doing a lot of scoring stuff.
Marc:You talk like he lives in a different house.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He works at home, but there's definitely a shut-in aspect.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I saw you guys the other night.
Marc:He seemed chipper.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He seemed all right.
Guest:He's less hermetical than he used to be.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:I'm glad to hear that.
Guest:You got to come by the pool.
Guest:We redid that whole thing.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:It's a whole different situation back there.
Marc:I thought I was persona non grata there now between the fallout with Morgan.
Guest:But now that you're not like the whirling tornado of crazy.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now that you're all mellowed, right?
Marc:I can come relax at the pool again.
Guest:Come relax.
Marc:You guys brought me in like I was a stray cat.
Marc:Morgan led me over there.
Guest:She led you over like you were a stray cat.
Marc:Are you guys still pals?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was almost presented like, I'm going to bring Mark over.
Guest:He's having a tough time.
Marc:He's in trouble.
Guest:You got to help him out.
Guest:He needs to sit by a pool.
Guest:I'm like, look, I'll try.
Guest:I don't think I was very much help for you, but I tried.
Guest:No, it was good.
Marc:I remember making you listen to some song that I thought was going to... Oh, I remember what it was.
Marc:You know, it's weird when you're heartbroken.
Marc:There are these songs that just click with you for no fucking reason.
Marc:And you want everyone to hear them because it's like, this is helping me.
Guest:Don't you hear the magic of this song?
Guest:This is my soul in song form.
Marc:Here it is.
Marc:You didn't go for it.
Marc:What was it?
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:I was listening to a few songs, but I think the one that was killing me at that time was some weird Lindsey Buckingham song.
Guest:Oh, that rings a bell.
Marc:It's just like this really intense guitar, and then he just ends up primally screaming at the end.
Guest:It's just a scream.
Marc:Yeah, it's like, don't you get it?
Guest:This is me screaming on the inside.
Guest:This is helping me right now.
Marc:So, all right, a couple other questions.
Marc:A couple other things.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I watched A Big Lebowski the other night, and you were there without a toe.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:How did that happen?
Marc:What are those guys like?
Marc:I can't believe I'm doing this with you, of all people.
Marc:Like, those Coen brothers, huh?
Marc:What the fuck?
Guest:Well, I, of course, saw them for, like, ten minutes.
Marc:Did they pick you or did you go in on stuff?
Guest:I auditioned, yeah.
Guest:Paul Thomas Anderson's girlfriend at the time was one of the casting directors on that movie.
Guest:And she called me up and she said, I don't know if you'd be interested in this, but somebody suggested you for this part.
Guest:Would you want to come in and read?
Guest:And I was like, of course, you say yes, even though I don't know what I'm doing.
Guest:But why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's in German, and it's playing the part of a nihilist, which I translate into need not show any kind of feeling or emotion.
Guest:That sounded like my acting skills.
Marc:And that's how it happened?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was just a casting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went in there and read, and they were like, all right, let's do it.
Marc:And do you like your new record?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm very pleased with it.
Marc:What's your favorite record of your records?
Marc:Like, if I were to go down the list of your records...
Guest:I think Lost in Space has a really interesting sound.
Guest:I think it was produced in an interesting way and is super dark, but I really like it.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I like them all.
Marc:Who's responsible for it?
Marc:How much does a producer bring to the table?
Marc:I don't know who produced all these records, but how many different producers do you work on?
Marc:Do you work with a different one every one, or have you worked with three?
Guest:There's like three of them.
Guest:Yeah, like John Bryan did the first two, and a guy named Michael Lockwood, who he'd played guitar for me for a long time, did Lost in Space.
Guest:And I produced one of them.
Marc:Who did The Forgotten Arm?
Guest:Forgotten Arm, which is Joe Henry, and Paul Bryan, who is in my band.
Guest:He plays bass.
Guest:He produced this one and the last one.
Marc:And John Bryan, he's another guy.
Marc:He's like this wizard.
Marc:Are you friends with Fiona Apple?
Guest:You know, we're friendly.
Guest:I don't have her phone number or anything.
Marc:Have you listened to her new record?
Guest:I have not.
Marc:It's some raw shit, man.
Guest:I bet.
Guest:I think Fiona's like a real genius.
Guest:I think her lyric writing is just unbelievable and has been since she was like a child.
Guest:So it's, you know, I mean, I'm very, very impressed and envious of that.
Guest:But the common thread is that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, she's been she's been through a lot.
Guest:And like as we are discussing, like when you have trauma in your in your history, it's you know, it takes it takes a lot of work to to get to normal.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:To get get it under control.
Marc:And with John Bryan, I mean, what makes him so amazing?
Marc:I mean, because I know, like, I just wish I was more familiar with everything he did, but I know he's sort of, any time he's spoken about it, it's like, oh, he's a genius.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, he plays, he can play just about any instrument.
Guest:And I've seen him, you know, pick up instruments and within three days, you know, like pedal steel, within three days, he's mastered it, which is like the craziest, weirdest instrument I can't even imagine.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because you've got to make the, yeah, there's a lot going on.
Guest:So he's like enormous amount of facility.
Guest:His ear is incredible.
Guest:For me, the best thing about him is that he has an unerring sense of melody that he brings to every part that he plays in any kind of instrument he plays.
Marc:And when you say that, that means like melody that sort of follows through and completes itself?
Guest:Just, yeah, I don't know if I can really explain it.
Guest:Just, you know, any kind of solo, it'll, yeah, it sort of follows, you know, it kind of follows a path instead of just, you know, a noodle.
Marc:And how much does a producer guide the sound when you're in, like when you're working in a studio?
Marc:Like if you're working with, like you did two albums with him, how come you didn't do more with him?
Guest:John, well, John's like another guy I don't really see.
Guest:I think he's just kind of moved on to another set of friends.
Guest:We wrote a bunch of songs together, and I think we write really well together, so I would love to write with him again.
Guest:He dictated the sound.
Guest:He played almost everything on my first solo record, so he had a lot to do with the sound, and sonically and just instrument-wise and parts-wise.
Marc:But when you're working with guys who play with you regularly, it's more collaborative and they understand you more.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is just that I have a sound in mind, and then we figure out together how that happens, and then they have to do all the work to make it happen, getting the band together, directing the band, or figuring out who plays what.
Marc:How much are you touring?
Guest:I did, I was up for about seven weeks, like three weeks, and then four weeks, I'm gonna do three weeks in Europe in January.
Marc:Where do you go where you're like a rock god?
Marc:Are there places where you're like, oh my god, who are these people?
Guest:We played a show at the town hall in New York and I was like, I can't believe what I'm hearing.
Guest:People just cheered when I walked on stage and it really was like, I can't believe that you guys are here cheering for me in this way.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:How do you take care of yourself on the road?
Marc:That's tough.
Marc:What's the big threat?
Guest:Um, interrupting your sleep a lot.
Guest:You know, you sleep on the bus.
Guest:Sometimes that's not so easy.
Guest:You know, I keep waking up in the middle of the night.
Guest:Um, it gets very, it gets very lonely.
Guest:I mean, although your people around, you know, your band is always around you.
Guest:So that's, that's really nice.
Guest:But, but there's sort of weird pockets of loneliness.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And just the extremes of being on the road, which is, you know, like you're lonely, you're lonely, you're lonely.
Guest:Like everyone loves you.
Guest:Everyone loves you.
Guest:You're lonely.
Guest:That's so strange.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Guest:Don't do anything.
Guest:Don't do anything.
Guest:Go, go, go, go.
Guest:It's over.
Guest:It's over.
Guest:It's over.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Over and over again.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:So it's hard to stay stable.
Marc:There is a weird loneliness, like, that happens almost immediately on the road that I can't quite explain.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I travel with people, so, you know, I'm lucky, but...
Marc:I've gotten better with it.
Marc:I've now actually look forward to a nice contained hotel room without any of this shit around, with no cats around, with no household worries.
Marc:It's completely turned for me.
Marc:I go on the road and I'm like, I just hope they have free breakfast at where I'm staying and I'm going to be great.
Marc:If there's good Wi-Fi and free breakfast, it's fucking beautiful.
Guest:It's amazing, too, because it is a weird combination of, like, you get irritated at the smallest stuff and you feel like such a dick that you're mad at it.
Guest:Like, why can't they put the fucking light switch in the same fucking place in every hotel?
Guest:Like, oh, it's on the base of the lamp?
Guest:Oh, no, it's at the top.
Guest:Oh, this is horrible.
Guest:So you get mad at that stuff, but then you're so, like, pathetically grateful.
Guest:Oh, my God, free Wi-Fi.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you, God.
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:Yeah, or now the hipster hotels have the cards that you use for lights.
Marc:They do them in Europe like that.
Marc:And it's like, I'm like, fuck this.
Marc:And I just leave one in there the whole time.
Marc:But there is a loneliness that I've never quite been able to understand.
Marc:That happens the first day you're there.
Marc:It's sort of like, I've been left here.
Marc:I'm abandoned.
Marc:Abandoned.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And sometimes you don't have a car.
Marc:And you walk outside of your hotel.
Marc:And you're like, where am I?
Marc:So do you want to play music?
Guest:Yeah, let's do it.
Marc:Play off the new one?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Should we try it?
Guest:Yeah, do it.
Okay.
Guest:DC, you shouldn't do the things you do But you're just so incapable of changing Your lies so well I could never even tell What were facts in your artful rearranging But I came back for more
Guest:And you laughed in my face and you rubbed it in I'm a labrador And I'll run when the gun drops the dove again
Guest:When we first met, I was glad to be your pet Like a lad I once had that we called Maisie But fetching sticks was the best I had for tricks You got bored, you got mad, and you got crazy And I came back for more
Guest:and you laughed in my face and you rubbed it in cause i'm a labrador and i'll run when the gun drops the dove again daisy daisy give me your answer daisy daisy do
Guest:Remember good old Maisie House, she waited out the stairs for you.
Guest:Daisy dear, I could almost shed a tear But let's shine in the time we have remaining You're a tough old gal, but a dog is just a pal And believe me my dear, I'm not complaining Cause I came back for more
Guest:Cause I knew even you did the best you could And I'm a Labrador And with me you could see it was understood That I'd come back for more Daisy, Daisy do Loyal and
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That sounded great.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I love when people play guitar in here.
Marc:I love when you play and sing.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:Can we do one more?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You went from moonlighting But you came out fighting I saw you larger than life Throwing your knife Gone into deep hiding
Guest:But you were so charming That it was disarming I wondered what was behind having to find An army that keeps arming
Guest:Oh, slip and roll, honey Stick the jab, kid Don't just trade punches Like your father did Cause playing the odds Isn't fooling the guns So slip and roll
Guest:Till you're willing to take the hit So we just keep hoping Although the deck's sloping You think you'd throw me a bone or leave me alone To do what they call coping
Guest:Oh, slip and roll, honey.
Guest:Stick the jab, kid.
Guest:Don't just treat punches like your father did.
Guest:Explain the odds, isn't fooling the gods.
Guest:So slip and roll.
Guest:Till you're willing to take the hit And you can take it, take it, take it, take it We've all seen the guy take it on the chin Oh, take it, take it, I know you can take it But when will you take something in?
you
Guest:Don't just treat punctures like your father did.
Guest:Cause playing the odds is a fool in the gun.
Guest:So slip and roll.
Guest:Till you're willing to take the hit And you can take it, take it Take it, take it We've all seen that guy Take it on the chin Oh, take it, take it I know you can take it But when will you take something new?
Marc:When will you take something else?
Guest:See, I didn't break into wild sobbing as I sang that.
Marc:Oh, is it?
Marc:Should we wait?
Marc:Do you want to play just the chords?
Marc:I think we're good.
Marc:We're good.
Okay.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Thank you to the lovely Amy Mann for talking and singing and playing.
Marc:So amazing.
Marc:I love her.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:It's a unique talent.
Marc:Special talent, that kid, Amy Mann.
Marc:Right?
Marc:holy shit go to wtfpod.com get all your wtf needs met got those cool new box brown posters from the philly shows hand screened very groovy kick in a few shekels comment you'll get the lips and deal get the mark and tom show check my calendar i got dates coming up in uh portland seattle san francisco eugene
Marc:Yeah, I got a lot of dates coming up.
Marc:Milwaukee, Bethlehem, PA.
Marc:Going to go to New York.
Marc:I don't think that's up there yet.
Marc:Moon Tower Comedy Fest in Austin.
Marc:That's happening.
Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I feel like I've got... Did the flu leave yet?
Marc:Is the flu gone?
Marc:Is there something nagging at me?
Marc:Is there something nagging?
Marc:Boomer lives!
you