Episode 350 - Jakob Dylan
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Marc:What the fuck?
Guest:With Marc Maron.
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fuckaristas?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:How is everybody?
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:We're about a week or so into the new year.
Marc:I'm excited and apprehensive about the conversation I had today with Jacob Dillon, the scion of the Dillon name.
Marc:Now look, I...
Marc:I loved the first Wallflowers album.
Marc:I love this new album.
Marc:I was surprised.
Marc:You know, it's got to be a tough racket to be the offspring of one of music's modern myths.
Marc:And I was nervous and a little apprehensive about talking to Jacob.
Marc:Look, I've got my own daddy issues and we've talked about it on this show ad infinitum.
Marc:I'm still dealing with them now for fuck's sake.
Marc:I'm back in therapy in some context.
Marc:And here I thought that, you know, I had reckoned with the with the beast within me.
Marc:That is my father.
Marc:But it shows its horn sometimes.
Marc:And it's a very awkward situation to be in where where you have a father that represents something damaging to you and you spend your life realizing at certain points where it's like, oh, my God, I better get off of this road.
Marc:I better get onto a dirt road that I can maybe put my fucking name on.
Marc:With all due respect to Jay Moore, that that, you know, to call my own and get away from this fucking thing, this this this this thing that is my father and his trajectory, his genetic inevitability that is coursing through every cell of my fucking body.
Marc:And then you think you got a handle on it.
Marc:Like, all right, I got him at arm's length.
Marc:We got an understanding, him and I. You know, I got the old lady there, too, my mom.
Marc:And, you know, we're okay.
Marc:You know, I'm a grown man.
Marc:I've let it go.
Marc:Can't blame them forever.
Marc:And then one night in a fit of rage, you know, you're just wreaking havoc on your love life, on your relationship, on everything around you.
Marc:And you realize, oh, my God, that's that guy.
Marc:that's the guy that made me he was he was speaking through me how do i exercise this fucker from my being it's an ongoing struggle depending on how powerful that beast is you better you better watch it because if it's a potent beast that uh that that that spewed you from their loins then do not underestimate the power of that fuck
Marc:having sort of rippling effect through many generations of your family.
Marc:That said, I love him.
Marc:I guess you could call it that.
Marc:You try to find the good things.
Marc:But okay, I'm getting off the point.
Marc:The point is, when I got the opportunity to interview Jacob, there was part of me that's like, well, I know that he's his own guy.
Marc:And I know that that has to be somewhat of a struggle because God knows anybody who has had a relationship with
Marc:And with with Bob Dylan through his music, you know, which I have in my life at different points in my life.
Marc:And I think people older than me have had that more.
Marc:So how are you going to be able to separate them?
Marc:And I was concerned for myself in the conversation.
Marc:And I said, I don't know if I can do this, this interview if he if he won't talk about him.
Marc:You know, I'm not going to hammer it, but I mean, you know, I'm curious.
Marc:I mean, how could I not be curious?
Marc:I know he's got his own thing and I like his thing.
Marc:I fucking I like the wallflowers, but I mean, I'm going to have to ask.
Marc:So I was struggling and and word got back to me that he was willing to to address it.
Marc:And obviously he knows.
Marc:how he addresses it, but I did feel like I got a little annoying.
Marc:I did feel like, despite my good intentions to try to keep it focused on him, I wanted to have a broader conversation, and I was respectful, but I've thought about this interview a lot.
Marc:In retrospect, he doesn't play any songs, but we do have a pretty engaging conversation.
Marc:I think it was very revealing.
Marc:And I think and I and I like the guy.
Marc:I mean, you know, he showed up.
Marc:I was waiting for him and he just showed up by himself wearing a hoodie.
Marc:and he goes you mark and i'm like yeah he goes hey jacob all right all right let's do it and uh and i like the guy uh we we had a good chat and it was he had he has a real edge to him and uh you know i don't want to say it's a little bit like his old man but you guys will be the judge of that uh and this is for fathers everywhere this is for everybody this episode
Marc:But look, I want to also say that my buddy, a friend of mine from New York, Daryl Lennox, very interesting comedian who's got an interesting story, has a special running on Starz.
Marc:If you get that network, I would TiVo or DVR Daryl Lennox's blind ambition.
Marc:And check that out.
Marc:He'll be a future guest on WTF.
Marc:And without saying anything more,
Marc:I'm going to re-listen to this as you re-listen to it.
Marc:This is me and Jacob Dillon.
Marc:And me, I want to give you a little subtext, trying desperately to avoid bringing up his father too much.
Marc:You want to get on the mic?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You want to put headphones on?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Unless you're going to be throwing sound effects at me or something.
Marc:No, there's no drum rolls.
Guest:Are we just going to go for it or just get started?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:I mean, I don't know how else to do it.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:I know other people do it.
Marc:They make a big countdown, a big deal.
Guest:Oh, in the studio right now.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:We'll be right back.
Guest:Jacob Dillon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're eyeballing my guitar.
Yeah.
Guest:I like all your guitars.
Guest:You got a K. I like that.
Marc:Yeah, that thing sounds like, I bought that for 80 bucks at a guitar store in New York, and you can only play shitty blues on that guitar.
Marc:That's all that's allowed.
Guest:Yeah, that's all it does.
Marc:That's what that's for.
Marc:Yeah, that's what that sound entails.
Marc:And I got this J45 over here that's new.
Guest:I saw that.
Guest:Yeah, I like those.
Marc:What do you play?
Guest:I play J45s.
Guest:I like those too, the Ks.
Guest:They used to be, you could find them anywhere like you did for a bad price, but just like anything, they've gone up.
Marc:Have they?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why, because they're collector's items?
Guest:Because they're cool, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, I mean, are they practical to play?
Marc:I mean, would you play it on a record?
Marc:You sure could, yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, some of them you've got to fix up, but they're quirky.
Guest:They're great.
Marc:So the new record, you know, let's not talk about that yet.
Marc:Yeah, let's hold off.
Marc:Do you live, like, where do you live in Malibu?
Marc:Do you live in the compound that I've seen pictures of?
Guest:In the compound?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I have my own house.
Marc:Is that what you mean?
Marc:I'm a grown man.
Guest:I have my own house.
Marc:Look, I can't, there's no way I'm not going to drop those things occasionally so you can just shut me down.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:You say, you know, I can only control what comes out of my mouth.
Marc:I can't control what you say.
Marc:So you can try.
Marc:That's the general rule.
Marc:I'm a polite guy.
Marc:You can say, you know, shut the fuck up.
Marc:I actually, the first time I heard of you, I don't know if you remember this or this is bad baggage or whatever.
Marc:I lived with Pete Berg briefly.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You remember Pete Berg?
Guest:I know Pete, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I just remember there was this period, like it was probably six months, right, when I moved to L.A.
Marc:What was that, like the late 80s or something, where you guys were jamming and stuff, where he was just learning how to play guitar or something?
Marc:Yeah, I taught him how to play a little guitar and he taught me how to drive a stick shift.
Guest:So that was the, oh, good.
Guest:He wasn't lying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:As if that story would advance his career in any way.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:No, like, I just remember living with him briefly for like three or four months, and he's like, oh, I'm going to go over to Jacob Dillon's house, and he's going to show me how to play guitar.
Marc:So we get validation on that.
Guest:Did he ever, he must have gotten good at this point.
Guest:It's been a long time later.
Guest:Can you play?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I honestly have not talked to him in probably 20 years, really.
Marc:But he just came up the other night.
Marc:I was talking to a friend of mine who knows him.
Guest:I just thought of him yesterday, a couple days ago, that movie Copland was on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That must have been around that time that you knew him, that you were hanging out.
Marc:No, it was earlier than that.
Marc:Was that earlier than that?
Marc:I mean, when I knew him, I think he was thinking about doing a documentary on Prince.
Marc:It was weird.
Marc:We were so much younger.
Marc:When people come to Hollywood, they got big ideas.
Marc:And they don't know where they're going to end up.
Marc:But I always got the sense he knew he was going to be something.
Marc:He did just fine for himself, didn't he?
Guest:It seems like it.
Guest:Yeah, he did just well.
Marc:But you must have been, at that time, sort of a kid.
Marc:When did you start playing?
Guest:Well, I was playing... I'm going to go back to that.
Guest:Peter, he taught me how to drive a stick shift.
Guest:I must have been 16.
Guest:yeah um well how did that come up that was the trade-off how'd you meet um well by the way i completely destroyed the car too what kind of car was it uh i can tell you it was a bronco too remember those yeah they appeared to be like broncos like big cars yeah years later you figured out they were more like um those little samurais or something they were actually really small cars right right right you thought they were like convenient broncos right many cars that they could take a hit but yeah no no no they couldn't and um
Guest:No, I remember I wasn't told that you couldn't drive with the clutch in the whole time.
Guest:It seemed to be that I was supposed to know that, so when the car started... Bouncing?
Guest:Bouncing, yeah, and smoke was pouring out of it.
Guest:Apparently, that was my fault, which it was.
Guest:But no, I've been playing before that.
Guest:That was right around the time that I was starting bands, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If that's right, if I was 16.
Marc:Were the guys in The Wallflowers, or any of them, remained from that?
Marc:I mean, were they originally?
Guest:No, the longest guy with me, Rami, playing keyboards, he's been there since about, I guess, probably 89, 90.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And this new record is like a return of The Wallflowers.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:I mean, the three of us who've been there since people have been listening, we're there.
Guest:And there's two different guys who... Stuart, our guitar player, has been touring with us for seven, eight years when he's hadn't made a record.
Guest:And then we have a new drummer, Jack Irons, who conveniently for us became available.
Marc:But the Women in Country record is really a country record.
Guest:Well, yeah, I guess thematically it's dusty, I guess you could say.
Guest:I don't know that it has country licks in the riffs.
Marc:Well, no, but I mean the heart of it is definitely in that groove.
Guest:Yeah, it's more of a traditional American record, I suppose, which was intentional.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And in this one, you got fucking Mick Jones singing with you.
Marc:Not so bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I'm listening to it.
Marc:And those songs you did with him, they kind of have that clash drive a little bit, or at least big audio dynamite.
Marc:I mean, was that a homage?
Marc:I mean, was this a big deal for you?
Guest:Well, you know, I've talked about them playing.
Guest:They were obviously a big influence.
Guest:And I'd just seen him play with Big Audio Dynamite earlier that year.
Guest:I don't know if you got to go to that, but it was one of the best shows I've seen in 20 years.
Guest:Really?
Guest:You still go to a lot of live music?
Guest:I go to Mick Jones shows whenever he comes to talk.
Guest:I really have.
Guest:I see all his projects.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He'll get me out of my house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I'm fascinated with his, you know, not just him as an artist, but as a guitar player, his tone.
Guest:It just was stunning that he was playing a completely different rig than he used to play.
Guest:What was the old rig?
Guest:Well, he used to play Stratocasters and Les Pauls, and he used to have... It's an identifiable sound that I recall from growing up in those early records, but my son recently was playing a completely different rig, and it sounded the same, which is a real testament to when people say, does that guy have good tone, and what's his tone like about a guitar player?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It really is the fingers.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Well, yeah, for sure.
Guest:I mean, you can...
Guest:distort it, do whatever you want to it.
Guest:But it really, there's something about people's fingers and how they address the instrument that really truly defines their tone.
Marc:It took me a long time to realize that tone is really what kind of separates great guitar players from good guitar players.
Marc:Because at some point you realize, well, not everyone's going to play like Ingway Momstein or whatever the hell that guy's name is.
Marc:You're not going to have this weird proficiency of noodling.
Marc:But it's how you own your fucking sound is what makes a difference.
Guest:Yeah, well, it shouldn't be too hard for us to learn that lesson that musicianship is important, but technique and all that is far more important than chemistry.
Guest:Yeah, well, musicianship's important, but I mean... Yeah, it's a great enhancement if you've got the other goods to know what you're doing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that alone isn't going to wow anybody.
Marc:But if you know your sound, if you find it, vocally and otherwise, you don't sound like anybody.
Marc:I hope not at this point.
Marc:That'd be good news.
Marc:So what were the first, when you were a kid, what were the bands that you were listening to?
Marc:What defined you as a musical guy?
Marc:Now, I can't distract from the fact that the elephant in the room was your dad, but you must have had some opportunity when you were a kid at least to play some pretty good fucking guitars.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What were my first guitars?
Guest:Did I have good ones?
Marc:Well, they were just laying around.
Guest:How come I pictured that there was just like... Well, that's true, but in all reality, he's never been a gear collector like that.
Guest:I mean, there was real nice guitars around, and there were real crappy guitars.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:There wasn't like a guitar room?
Guest:No, none were true.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Guest:I don't treat any of my guitars better than the next one.
Guest:I mean, they tell stories, and that's what's important about them.
Guest:And that guitar you're talking about right there...
Guest:could be infinitely valuable because it projects something really important, whether it's worth $500 or $10,000.
Marc:Yeah, I can feel that.
Marc:I mean, some guitars I can't handle.
Marc:I mean, I had an SG briefly, but it was too much for me.
Marc:Yeah, don't get me wrong.
Guest:Old guitars are cool, there's no doubt.
Guest:Expensive ones can be cool too, but...
Guest:No, the instruments were never precious around my house growing up.
Guest:They were there if you wanted to use them, and if you didn't, you could bump into them.
Marc:Yeah, just knock them over?
Marc:No one was going to freak out?
Marc:No, not really, no.
Marc:What was the first guitar?
Guest:My first guitar...
Guest:Well, I was lucky in that way.
Guest:I had an old Telecaster to start with.
Guest:Not too bad, right?
Guest:From the 50s, 60s?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:Where'd that come from?
Guest:That was a gift.
Guest:That was given to me.
Guest:Unfortunately, the story doesn't have a great ending, and it was stolen from me.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Guest:Where?
Guest:I was living in my mother's guest house when I was 18.
Guest:yeah and it's just someone came by yeah it's one of those things where I think I know who did it it was a party situation someone knew you had it well people used to come over all the time I think that somebody eyeballed it and I think I knew who it was who I think had recreational habits and problems that was true yeah and it was personal because they took my leather jacket too oh fuck the jacket and that's like really personal to a guy isn't it his guitar and his jacket there's tons of other stuff to take they like took your whole half your being they kind of like they took I'm pretty sure they came for the guitar on the way out went oh that's a great jacket too I'll take that
Marc:But those are like the two most important things to rock and roll person.
Guest:Take anything else.
Marc:The jacket and the axe.
Guest:And unfortunately, it was one of those things where you could never, the accusation just would, you know, if it wasn't right, it would have just been awful.
Guest:So you just let it go?
Guest:Yeah, I reported it.
Guest:I still think I'll see it.
Guest:There's only so many of those guitars around.
Guest:I'll see it.
Guest:I got the serial number still.
Marc:Have you got the word out that that guitar's been missing for 20 years?
Guest:It's been like 20 long time now.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I'll find it, though.
Guest:Did you go look for it?
Guest:No, but there's only so many of them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'll see it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And then I'll have to pay a ridiculous amount of money to have my guitar back.
Marc:But it'd be good if the guy had the story.
Marc:Yeah, we traded.
Guest:He gives me the guitar, I'll give him the story.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So what about that dude who you think took it?
Marc:You ever see him around?
Marc:No.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:No.
Marc:Maybe one day that'll happen, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We'll see.
Guest:That could happen, too.
Guest:So it was a telly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what were you playing at the beginning?
Guest:That's what I played.
Guest:I like telecasters.
Guest:What music?
Guest:Oh, what music?
Guest:You know, I grew up in the early 80s out here, and I was, you know, I was... There was always great music around, and I was lucky that I knew that the stuff that was currently on the radio was...
Guest:As much as that's what I was receiving constantly, I also was aware of people like Lightning Hopkins and Hank Williams, Chuck Berry, which wasn't necessarily present or hip in 1982.
Guest:Right, it was important.
Guest:Yeah, it was always around, so I didn't differentiate any of that stuff, but...
Guest:you know i listened you know i liked a lot of english rock groups when i was growing up what like 60 stuff or the punk stuff you know there was a lot of those groups like the buzzcocks and yeah yeah yeah good drive yeah that stuff's still great you know i mean yeah that was current music in 1981 two three yeah still great you know yeah it's awesome yeah a lot of it i just i just started listening to records again i bought a tube amp you know cool that's my midlife crisis what'd you get i couldn't afford a macintosh yeah do you have you can get the macintosh book have you seen that no it's a great picture book
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's like... You just look at the abs.
Guest:Yeah, because I'm with you on that.
Guest:I got something else.
Guest:I wouldn't mind a real Macintosh.
Marc:I got a Rogue Audio.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:They're made in Pennsylvania.
Marc:And I just started listening to my records.
Marc:Now I'm buying records again.
Marc:I'm picking up... What turntable do you got?
Marc:I don't have a good turntable.
Marc:Do I need one?
Guest:What's your thought on that?
Guest:You know, I'll tell you what I've got.
Guest:It's called a Riga.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:R-E-G-A.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a great entry.
Guest:Write that down.
Guest:Because that's a ridiculous hobby.
Guest:If you start chasing that, you'll just... It's a fucking rabbit hole.
Guest:...be selling your house.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't want to do that, but I'm already... That's the one.
Marc:It's like 400 bucks, 500 bucks?
Guest:Somewhere in there.
Marc:Is that the one that just has nothing but a table?
Marc:This is the problem with that fucking gear, man, is that you spend this bread, and then you're listening to it, and you're like, God, this just sounds really good, but I wonder...
Guest:Well, you'll never be done.
Guest:I mean, then you're like, well, this sounds really great and all, but are my walls right?
Guest:Do I need to put some foam over here to make sure that's really doing what it's supposed to do?
Guest:And then you start getting into like, well, my cables.
Guest:I don't know if I have the right cable.
Guest:My cables are on the floor.
Guest:You can't have your cables touch the floor.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:If you're really a freak, you can't have your cables on the floor.
Marc:But are you that way?
Guest:No, I don't care.
Marc:Do you know cats like that, though?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Marc:And when you sit and listen to their shit, does it sound significantly better?
Guest:Not to me, really.
Guest:Good.
Guest:I mean, I like it, and I think the whole thing is it's worthwhile if you got the bread for it and you're interested, but I just want to hear the music at some point.
Guest:I don't really care if it's... It definitely sounds different, right?
Guest:Yeah, it sounds great, but I'll listen to a CD and an MP3 too.
Guest:I mean, I do care, but it's not always convenient to be in your room with your record player, you know?
Marc:Right, but some of those blues records, like some of the, like I've got Hoodoo Man Blues by Buddy Guy, Junior Wells, and like some of the separation on those things when it was just a few guys, it's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like it sounds like they're right fucking there in the room.
Guest:Oh, you know when you're listening to it in the medium that they've performed it, and you can tell.
Marc:Yeah, and some of the greatest records ever sound like shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Maybe they're not some of the greatest records ever.
Guest:What do you mean on the MP3s?
Marc:No, even on the record.
Marc:I mean, it's okay.
Marc:It has to do with pressing.
Guest:Well, you've seen the old studios, what they had.
Guest:I mean, it's just like scientists.
Guest:They just had a couple big knobs.
Guest:All the equipment was good.
Guest:There wasn't a ton of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you record, do you record on analog now?
Guest:You know, I hope to.
Guest:We try to, usually.
Guest:But it's not always convenient.
Guest:And I'm not one of those guys who's going to, you know, has to be taping there.
Guest:I mean, I'm just into does it sound good.
Guest:I don't really care what cable comes between this and that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'm not going to get hung up on that.
Guest:People got to play music.
Guest:They still got to perform.
Guest:They can't.
Guest:You know, you get bands in there with all that, with the tape and no Pro Tools, and they make a big noise about that they're doing.
Guest:But the band sucks, so it doesn't really matter.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You still have to be good.
Guest:People forget that equipment's not going to solve that for you.
Marc:Yeah, because I'm hung up on this thing now where I think, when I was a kid and I was listening to records, I guess he was probably, how old are you?
Marc:40-something?
Marc:Yeah, something.
Guest:I just got 40-something here last week.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:Well, happy birthday.
Marc:43.
Marc:43.
Marc:I'm 49.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And you seem to have some of the same taste in music I did, which is not relative to our age with Chuck Berry and the blues.
Marc:I mean, I got a picture of Muddy up there.
Marc:I got Howlin' Wolf over there.
Marc:I got Chuck right there.
Marc:Chuck was important.
Marc:Buddy Holly was important.
Marc:I don't know how I came about that shit.
Marc:I think my old man had an A-track, and I was lucky.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How'd you come over it?
Guest:uh well you know the artist i liked always i mean that's what i was keen i was tuned into who i was listening to i'd read their interviews and listen to what they had to say right and you know i knew there was you know there's a great photo of the clash playing in in 70 maybe 79 it says lee dorsey on the marquee so i want to know who that was right so the guy who was in some big band shit yeah they well yeah they they would they took out uh
Guest:They took out Bo Diddley at some point, which is like they were a punk band for crying out loud.
Guest:So that was a lesson to everybody.
Marc:Bo Diddley was punk too.
Guest:Yeah, that was their way of, that's how I learned.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was one of the ways I learned.
Guest:I muster up on Bo Diddley once.
Guest:Well, I'm for both of us glad you didn't.
Guest:How did that almost happen?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Guest:You were drunk or you were excited?
Marc:I was drunk.
Marc:I was supposed to meet a friend at the Lone Star in New York, and Bo Diddley was playing, and my friend didn't show up, and I was sitting at the bar, and Bo was sitting next to me.
Marc:I think at the time, I grew up in New Mexico, and I think he was a sheriff.
Marc:He was a sheriff, briefly, in New Mexico.
Marc:I got to talking to him, and I just felt it coming over me.
Marc:I had to bolt out and jump in a cab and throw up in a cab.
Marc:Good story, right?
Marc:You got any good stories like that, Jay?
Guest:I have never almost thrown up.
Guest:Well, let me come back to this.
Guest:No, I don't think I've ever almost thrown up on anybody.
Guest:Not that I can remember.
Marc:So in terms of the country record, you had an opportunity to work with these great guys, both musicians and producers, like Ruben and Burnett, and you did two albums with T-Bone, right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Now what is it, because I never quite understand it, because I'm not a professional musician, I'm a garage musician, which means specifically I play in here.
Marc:Occasionally I'll play outside with people.
Marc:But when you work with someone like T-Bone Burnett, who's like this dude whose job in life seems to be a curator of American music sound, what do you do?
Marc:How does that influence you?
Marc:How do you work with a guy like that?
Marc:What are the conversations that are had about sound?
Guest:Well, I mean, T-Bone specifically, I've worked with him a few times, not just on those records, but in between records.
Guest:How'd that relationship happen?
Guest:You know, I've actually known T-Bone, I mean, probably since 1975 or so, when he was, he toured in Rolling Thunder, and I was a kid on those tours, and he was around.
Guest:So I've known him my whole life, but I started, the band worked with him, and we made Bring It On The Horse.
Guest:We're looking for a producer, and he already did really well.
Guest:I hadn't seen him many years at that point.
Guest:We just sent songs like everybody else does, and he liked the songs, and we ended up making that record, and we've certainly stayed connected since then, but...
Guest:In a real simple sense, if you're someone like myself who's making the record that I made with him, Women in Country, he'll give you a platform, a space where you can do that thing, and it takes away a lot of the concerns and pressures that you might have of directing or producing, which I don't really have much.
Guest:I mean, I could produce other people, but when making your own record, I think it's good to have as many good ears around as possible.
Guest:but you weren't necessarily you obviously were looking for that quality because he brings a very specific quality something that's going to plant you in american music in a very sort of almost yeah i mean he could do anything yeah i suppose you know i mean the record we made with him well he does that now and that's kind of what people are saying that's where he's kind of made his his uh most present mark is with that americana sound yeah starting with that raising sand the allison krauss robert plant record
Marc:Or the Where Art Thou soundtrack.
Guest:Yeah, but he could do anything.
Guest:I think that's kind of what many people come to him now for.
Guest:For a lot of the veteran artists he works with, he makes it very, very easy for them because a lot of people have had a really difficult time, especially if they're older.
Guest:They've made lots of records and they've been kicked around studios as they try to reinvent themselves.
Guest:By the time they come to T-Bone,
Guest:They've been making records for 40 years.
Guest:He's a salvation.
Guest:Can someone please just come in here and just not make this a drag anymore and make it sound great and not make this horrendous experience?
Marc:And Ruben's the same way.
Marc:He's sort of this salvation guy, too, or someone who has reached such a status where he'll reach out to people and say, like, we need to make something pure for you.
Marc:You know, like the Johnny Cash records.
Marc:I mean, he even did it with ZZ Top and ACDC, that he's got a reverence for certain people and music that he wants to return back to their original sound.
Guest:Yeah, I have mixed feelings about that.
Guest:I know that that's always a good idea.
Guest:Yeah, why?
Guest:Well, you know, I don't... I mean...
Guest:I don't think you can take everybody and strip it back to bare bones and have it be effective.
Guest:Some people need that sound around them, you know?
Marc:Even if their original sort of thing was bare bones?
Marc:I mean, even... Well, Neil Diamond wasn't bare bones.
Guest:I mean, his famous work was like masterpieces of orchestration.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, it was like Broadway.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you could say, yeah, he started out in New York City with a guitar playing folk song.
Guest:That's how people know him.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:exactly his sound the Neil Diamond sound was a very dramatic yeah and when people go to those shows that's what they want to hear they don't really want to hear the bare bones I imagine I mean if I'm if you're asking me that's what I think yeah there'd be a lot of upset 80 year old Jewish women yeah so I don't know I don't know that that approach works with everybody I don't know that everybody wants to look backwards all the time either you know I mean that's yeah not everybody loves those Johnny Cash records either you know that's if you listen in Johnny Cash those don't sound like Johnny Cash to everybody
Marc:Well, they sound like a fragile, sort of raw, honest Johnny Cash in a way that he'd never been heard before.
Marc:I mean, I think those albums, at least a couple of them, were kind of haunting.
Guest:They're haunting.
Guest:It's a little bit sounds to me like he's, you know... What's important is he felt good with what he was doing, but there's a certain amount of feeling that he's... I feel like he's being taken advantage of those records.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Because what people really respond to is how fragile it is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Did he want to be so exposed and so fragile that people would just start to feel bad just when he started singing?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Do you feel bad or do you feel like this is an honest representation of an artist who is at that age where he's definitely looking down the pipe that death is imminent?
Guest:So I gave him a Soundgarden song to sing and it just moved people so much.
Guest:I'm one of the guys who can say I didn't totally get it.
Marc:But you've got to admit, though, can we admit that the Nine Inch Nails song was pretty fucking good?
Guest:Yeah, I think it's all good.
Guest:I just don't know what the association is to the great Johnny Cash that was a giant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The spirit of him was a giant.
Guest:I was able to be around Johnny Cash when he was very much together, and it was very powerful.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:Teenager.
Guest:I'd been around him a couple of times.
Guest:Yeah, because he had a relationship with your dad and he was around?
Guest:He was actually very good friends with my mother.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, and he was a powerful character.
Guest:So when I heard those records, to me, I didn't really totally understand the connection of taking somebody who was clearly grasping and feeling the need to be singing, and that was what was important to him.
Guest:And I don't know...
Guest:So why is he singing a Glenn Danzig song?
Guest:A guy who comes with bat wings and expresses really demonic, dark things.
Guest:The juxtaposition, I suppose, of putting that into Johnny Cash's lap must sound really interesting to some people, but it sounds like a card trick to me.
Marc:Right, well, to you who had a sort of young and emotional relationship with a guy who, with an artist.
Guest:In the music, the music was important.
Marc:Right, at the peak of his career, I could see how that, well, see, I feel the same way, not in a personal way, but I watched the bits and pieces of the concert for Sandy, and I had real moments where I was watching performers of The Who and The Stones and stuff, and there was part of me that's sort of like, maybe it's time to kind of maybe sit down.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't see much of that, was it not?
Marc:Well, no, it was fine, but they're sort of limited to being sort of karaoke machines of themselves in order to placate this huge audience.
Marc:And it was for a good cause, but I'm a Stones guy.
Marc:I won't go see the Stones without Bill, and I'm not that interested in when it's not the full band.
Marc:But there's a vulnerability to somebody getting older that if they don't honor that, they might make a fool out of themselves.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, rock and roll is a young man's game for starters.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Everybody knows that.
Guest:So I don't know what are those people supposed to do.
Guest:Keith Richards is still as rock and roll as anybody.
Guest:I don't have the answer to what you're saying.
Guest:I agree.
Marc:But do you think they could benefit from sitting down in a room and just stripping it down?
Marc:I mean, that's what I wonder.
Marc:It's like, okay, why can't Mick maybe sit down and sing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, well, he still jumps around better than most guys half my age.
Guest:As long as they want to, as long as they can.
Guest:And they do it better.
Guest:I mean, I know they take a lot of ribbing for it, but they do it better than most.
Guest:I've seen some of the clips.
Guest:I saw that clip of Bill Wyman joining them recently.
Guest:Did you see that?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah, in London, just like last month.
Guest:Was it great?
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Guest:It's great to see them all together, right?
Guest:It was.
Guest:They had the thing, and there's no denying it.
Guest:It's the Stones.
Marc:Well, in the same way, I mean, how do you feel about your old man, his work now?
Guest:Well, his thing is, you know, it's not, we're talking about the show, we're talking about the records.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm talking about like I've seen him.
Marc:I saw him once in a bumper shoot and then I saw him.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:I saw him once at the wheel turn.
Marc:But it seems to me that, you know, he is going to that's the way he's going to go out, that he just wants to stay up there and be a troubadour.
Marc:And the music is still great.
Guest:yeah and he never said otherwise he's just doing what he always did right you know and um do you like the new music it's great yeah you know yeah he's you know what he's really doing for everybody else is just setting the example because no one knows you know no one knew what people was going to happen to guys in bands in the well no one knew you'd even have a job right talking 40 50 years ago right do this for a little bit and then get a get a real job and for a lot of people just money yeah yeah you know and it just kept going and going and um
Guest:I suppose for the Rolling Stones in that generation going into the 80s when they were going into their 40s, no one knew.
Guest:How much longer can you do this?
Guest:We're 40.
Guest:So now it's all these years later.
Guest:Obviously, there are no rules.
Guest:But it depends on the material you have.
Guest:His records don't really depend on the same kind of show that you're talking about that may not be so conducive to guys getting to 70.
Marc:Or even trying to compete in a pop music show.
Guest:realm yeah people don't go to hear his songs because they're attached to the specific moment when they or the recording a lot of those other guys who talk about the rolling stones and what's elton john those guys made like perfect records and people want to hear those records and they want to see them look hopefully similar to those records right but his records you know that they don't have the same kind of production value and they don't have this they're not locked in time it's the songs that really have have traveled not not so much the recordings
Guest:So he can do them any way he wants.
Guest:Right, which is kind of amazing, right?
Marc:It's totally unique.
Marc:Yeah, and like in terms of like, you know, you're talking about people going to Rick or to T-Bone to sort of like, you know, desperately kind of reinvent themselves or get a new perspective.
Marc:It seems that you must have grown up, you know, seeing, you know, right in the, as a child, seeing your father go through several different phases or different inventions of himself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Did it ever strike you as a gimmick or just an element of his personality?
Marc:Or personalities.
Guest:Yeah, I saw a lot of that, but none of it ever seemed contrived to me.
Guest:I mean, no one asked me my opinion at the time.
Guest:I just saw one record go to the next record, and it was very organic.
Guest:I mean, he might have been up to something else that I wasn't aware of, but...
Guest:But that's, yeah, you know, his thing is if he had to be simple about it, I think he just follows his nose.
Guest:I think that that's probably something everybody should do more often instead of being so calculated.
Guest:And, you know, those records you're talking about, other people, they're going back to unreinvent their new selves and go back to, like, the moment that
Guest:they think really matter to people most.
Guest:And the only reason you really do that is because you're unsatisfied with the way people are thinking about you now.
Guest:So you want to retreat.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But not everybody feels like retreating.
Guest:Just because people don't like your new records or your new sound, you can just still keep going forward.
Guest:You don't have to go backwards.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's what I don't think is great about those records you're talking about.
Guest:I don't think it's a great idea to take people backwards to a moment in time that connected with everybody.
Guest:I just don't see how that would feel good.
Marc:Well, in some ways, how is that different than those, like there was that period of time where you see all these bands from the 50s and 60s just going out in these revival tours, just specifically to play their hits as close as possible, even if there's only one member of the band that's still in the band, and it just becomes sad.
Guest:Yeah, but I'll contradict myself, because I like those shows, reviews.
Guest:You know, you've got a couple songs in your back pocket that people like, whether they're in the Drifters or Coasters.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Just play them.
Guest:Yeah, it's just music.
Guest:People overthink it.
Guest:It's just music.
Guest:That guy's, whoever you might be talking about, he's got to work, too.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:He's got a couple songs that people love.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But I guess that sort of removes it from like there's a difference between a band that's known for two hits and a band that's known as a god or they have a whole mythology built around them by their public.
Marc:You know, like if you're a band and people just know the song, they're not even sure who you are.
Marc:It's just the Drifters or whoever.
Marc:They just want to hear that song, The Platters.
Marc:There's three or four songs that are great.
Marc:And maybe Clyde McFadder was somewhat of a myth.
Marc:But still, it's just, you know, stand by me and let's get out of here.
Marc:Bring up the next crew.
Guest:Well, you know, not everybody's here to do the same job.
Guest:Some people here are role players, and they're on the front lines, and that's their purpose is they can do one or two moments, one or two songs.
Guest:Not everybody is going to change the world and have a 40, 50-year career.
Guest:Only Bruce Springsteen gets to be Bruce Springsteen.
Guest:Only the Stones get to be the Stones, and then there's everybody else.
Guest:I mean, that's what...
Guest:yeah it's okay to not be it's okay to not be you know valedictorian or you know but this sounds like prom king every year not everybody wants to but you've wrestled with this have i wrestled with it i mean the realization of it well i just i do know that there's uh well yeah i'm aware of it i'm aware of the reality and i'm just i guess what i'm suggesting is like some people they have that they might have a moment but maybe that's all they were here to do
Guest:And they were never, the idea that they're supposed to sustain that level of excitement or success or creativity beyond that short, brief amount of time, it's not everybody's function.
Guest:But I do know that a lot of those people feel the endless pressure that that's what they were supposed to do.
Guest:Because they did it once.
Guest:From personal experience.
Guest:Yeah, people like, yeah, of course, from being a music fan and, you know, I mean, an artist isn't any less an artist because he wasn't able to stretch it out for 40 years.
Marc:No, of course not.
Marc:But I mean, the real struggle in the culture we live in now or in having that moment and feeling that moment is is how do you accept what you're saying as somebody who's an observer?
Marc:You know, if you're the artist and you've had your one moment, you're like, fuck, man, we're it.
Marc:Let's do it.
Marc:Let's make some more moments.
Marc:And it just doesn't happen.
Marc:I mean, that can be a sad fucking journey of humility.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It just depends on what is you want.
Guest:I mean, if that's what you want.
Guest:Most people don't do that.
Guest:Most people don't have long, successful careers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So if that's what you're demanding or desiring, it'll be really hard.
Guest:Being successful once is not that hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it takes a, you know, sort of, a few things have to come together.
Guest:It takes a lot of things, but it can happen.
Guest:It can be random.
Guest:It can be from a lot of work.
Guest:It can be really calculated.
Marc:Well, let's talk about yours, because I remember, like, when I was in L.A.
Marc:the first time, I mean, you sort of defined that kibitz room scene, that there was something going on that you seemed to be at the cutting edge of.
Marc:I mean, what was it?
Marc:Like, what years were that?
Marc:Was that, like, 80?
Guest:That's, like, 92.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:91, 92.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like it was like Cantor's had opened that bar.
Marc:I mean, it was barely open when you guys started playing there, right?
Guest:Well, you know, the funny thing, we never actually even played there as a band.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, we used to go there and we used to play with lots of other bands.
Guest:And that's all, that was, it wasn't a rule, but that's why we went there.
Guest:Our friends' bands went there and we just jammed.
Guest:We played cover songs.
Guest:No one really played their own songs.
Guest:And it was, you know, Cantor's, you know, I don't know what year you came out here, but that's been there forever.
Guest:forever no the the deli has but i remember the bar the kibitz room too actually it had gone through cycles when we were going there a lot it had turned it well over the course of this a month or two it turned into a really busy nightclub because bands were in there playing it's a little place but that way but that wasn't the first time that happened that happened in the i believe like in the 70s and 80s too oh really because it always had a piano back there yeah so we weren't the first ones to do that we just you know we were doing it then um then truthfully we didn't play there long we must have been there for only a few months because then we started making our first record and we were out
Marc:So is that where you guys started playing out together, though?
Marc:Even if it wasn't as a band, is that where you sort of found your groove?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is L.A.
Guest:at that point.
Guest:It was a lot of pay-to-play, which year I'm sure you know what that is, where you had to buy the tickets from the venues anywhere from $600 or $800.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and then responsibility is yours.
Guest:They give you a big roll of tickets.
Guest:And you make your money back or you don't, they don't care.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But they got to make their money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They've made their money.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So we did it one time and it was a disaster.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, we lost all the money and we realized the pay to play wasn't going to be a good idea for us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you have to, you know, I always thought it was a humiliating trip there to like go out and call your friends, beg them to come to your show and I need 12 bucks.
Guest:Right.
Guest:we weren't great at that so so you just took the hit yeah the guys yeah so you're gonna imagine your friends like so you want me to get out when they come to your show for 12 bucks you want me to watch you screw around on guitar with your band yeah and then what what do i get what kind of friendship is this so we ended up playing at a deli so the first album was that wasn't the big album
Guest:No, the first album was in 92.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who was playing on that?
Marc:Just you guys?
Guest:That was just us.
Marc:And then the second album was with a different label?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:First album was with Virgin Records, and the second one we'd move over to Interscope.
Marc:And that was the big one?
Guest:That's one where everybody seemed to take notice, yeah.
Marc:And he had some cool players on there, right?
Marc:Some guys that showed up to play with you?
Marc:Was it Ben Montanche who played with the... No, Mike Campbell from Heartbreakers.
Marc:Mike Campbell, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know, we'd been in a... The band had shifted around during the time of the first record or the second record.
Guest:While we were moving along and making advances in some places, the band was also simultaneously falling apart.
Guest:The drummer had left, which was great.
Guest:It gave us an opportunity to have someone else play with us.
Guest:But we were in the studio when these things were happening.
Guest:That's why we have on that record, there's a great drummer who played with us.
Guest:Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers, our guitar player had left right at the beginning of the record too.
Guest:So we were starting...
Guest:How the fuck do people do that?
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:Because it was just, everything was kind of going up to a higher level.
Guest:We were getting more, you know, people change.
Guest:Everybody, that's like a crucial time and some guys just change their mind.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But like, what I don't understand is when you got a good thing going, like there are great bands and then all of a sudden everybody starts falling apart right when the shit gets hot.
Marc:I mean, I don't understand that.
Guest:Well, I don't know that it was really hot yet.
Guest:I don't know that anybody, bands are complicated.
Guest:And there was just, you know, people were, some guys in the group were better than others.
Guest:And that was becoming really obvious.
Guest:What, musician-wise?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And desire was changing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, you know, these problems just usually work themselves out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They usually have a way of just arriving right when you need them most.
Guest:And we couldn't have made the record we made with the band that went into the studio.
Guest:It had to fall apart to put these other people in place to make the record we made.
Marc:So it happened for a reason.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But I think at the time we knew that too.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But were relationships destroyed?
Marc:Did you no longer talk to those dudes?
Marc:Is it one of those things?
Guest:One of the guys I've never spoken to since.
Guest:Because of you or him?
Guest:Well, actually, he left.
Guest:He wasn't even fired.
Guest:So he's got a chip on his shoulder?
Guest:i don't know he probably does about me yeah but uh he chose to be in someone else's band at the wrong time and that's not my problem he'd probably like a do-over um but i'm not going to give the person a name or anything it doesn't really it's just you can you can google that i don't want to give it any more those who are interested can do them yeah uh and then actually uh the guitar player that i started the group with uh he was getting frustrated at that point um
Guest:Because everything was just going up to stakes were getting higher.
Guest:He was the person I started the group with, and that was complicated.
Guest:And I am still friendly with him.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Now, that album was so huge.
Marc:I mean, there was fucking amazing songs on there, and the world seemed to think so.
Marc:So that must have felt fucking great.
Guest:It feels better when they don't think so.
Guest:I'll tell you that.
Guest:Yeah, they seem to like it.
Marc:But after that record, I mean, and after riding that record out, when you made the next record, I mean, how did that feel?
Marc:I mean, do you feel like you were chasing something?
Marc:I'm just getting back to what you were talking about and sort of like that idea of being mature and realizing your place as an artist and buffering that disappointment and putting things into perspective.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know that I would...
Guest:You know, careers are difficult, but what we did on that record, you know, at some point I felt like I wasn't even a part of it.
Guest:It had just gone on.
Guest:I mean, it didn't feel like me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What the places and situations the band had gotten into, you know, a tremendous amount of it was, most of it was all terrific.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't have any interest afterwards.
Guest:I had no idea that I was, no one told me I was supposed to do that again every year.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I didn't know that was the point.
Guest:I didn't know that I had to.
Guest:I already did it once.
Guest:Am I supposed to do that again every year?
Marc:Have you listened to bands repeat themselves over and over again?
Guest:Well, just the success of it was so... I mean, bands don't do that anymore.
Guest:You're talking about the mid-1990s when the record business and radio was at a certain point that...
Guest:Things like that could happen.
Guest:So that quickly changed and bands don't do that kind of thing anymore.
Guest:Bands won't sell, won't be a dozen rock bands this year selling 10 million copies of records and being everywhere in the grocery store and the radio.
Marc:But there was pressure for you to do that though?
Guest:No, there wasn't pressure.
Guest:I didn't think it could be done again.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So how did that change your disposition?
Marc:You were just sort of like, all right, well, that's that.
Marc:Let's just make another record and do the one we want and see what happens.
Guest:No, I don't think we went in to make the following record.
Guest:I don't think we went in with any ideas other than
Guest:to make a great record i mean that sincerely no i don't mean that as in we're going to ignore expectations i just don't think i was aware what the expectations might be yeah excited to make another record and i thought i knew how to write songs better at that point i thought that people were listening now that was an opportunity yeah which i didn't know anybody was going to be listening before that you know bands make those first records that that break and then you suddenly realize that people are going to listen to what you're saying right so you that'll throw your head for a bit of a loop at some point
Guest:So that's what I was wrapped up in.
Guest:Whatever it was I was writing for the next record, which was Breach, was somebody's going to hear these.
Guest:Somebody will.
Guest:I didn't know that before.
Guest:They're going to give it a spin.
Guest:And I thought the band had gotten better.
Guest:I mean, I thought that the band was playing better, and I thought that...
Guest:You know, there weren't songs on the record that we're going to do with the previous one had done.
Guest:It just wasn't the same kind of record.
Guest:And it wasn't intentional.
Guest:I wasn't playing any artistic card.
Guest:I wasn't caught up in that stuff.
Guest:I'm just doing writing and recording the way it feels good.
Marc:But you weren't looking for hooks or, you know.
Guest:As a songwriter, I always am.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, but as I'm not sitting in there...
Marc:imagine what would or wouldn't go on the radio i mean i have no idea right and now like not knowing obviously your family dynamics or you know you know whatever goes on between your mom and your dad i mean was there a point of reference for you in in what you grew up in at least in terms of writing songs in terms of dealing with music and in terms of you know touring and that kind of shit were there any moments where you're like you know i better call my old man what for advice or something yeah
Guest:you know you know sure for business stuff i could but you know the rest of it is uh i don't really think there's you know i don't really give any advice either like i don't know i mean what's to give advice about i get on a bus i go i play shows and then i get back on the bus i go to hotel room what well i mean that's really kind of don't don't get fucked up you know put on a good show try to give the people what they want there's a lot of advice it can those are great right there you just actually wrapped them all up that's really all there is
Guest:That's really all there is.
Guest:Don't screw up.
Guest:And, you know, just be aware of the people who spend time and come see you.
Guest:Be respectful of that.
Guest:I believe that's true.
Guest:Other than that, take care of yourself.
Marc:But in terms of like, you know, being a kid and being on the Rolling Thunder review, I mean, you must have saw some shit.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah i mean i was pretty young i was like i was five or so i mean did i like what do you mean like well did anything resonate i mean that was like the sort of the end of the dirty hippie era and you know what i mean yeah those are different worlds a different time you know we went on those tours we didn't have nannies and that kind of stuff we were just told to be on the bus by 11.
Guest:Just wander around the ground.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:We really did.
Guest:We were self-sufficient.
Guest:Forget about a nanny.
Guest:It certainly wasn't a nanny per kid like they do now.
Guest:Leashes on the kids and buses for the babies.
Guest:We didn't do any of that kind of stuff.
Marc:I imagine somewhat of a communal atmosphere.
Marc:There was a lot of people around.
Marc:Wasn't Ginsberg around at that time?
Marc:Sam Shepard was there.
Marc:Your dad was wearing makeup.
Marc:It was quite an event.
Guest:yeah it was um well and people love that now i mean that's what bands left and right are trying to put together quote-unquote rolling thunder review style shows and you know good luck i don't think they really it's not about the bands it's about something else that's not really what made that time special what do you think did
Guest:It was a spirit.
Guest:It was the first time it was being done.
Guest:It was a free fall.
Guest:The music was great.
Marc:What was the idea of it?
Marc:Just sort of have a traveling carnival almost?
Guest:I suppose.
Guest:I don't really know what the... I don't know that it was that contrived.
Guest:I don't really know.
Marc:No, I mean, I think that the 60s had sort of delivered this kind of communal element.
Marc:And I think it seems like, you know, your dad and some other people were at the core of that.
Marc:And they just wanted to share it in a way that was proactive and not destructive.
Marc:Oh, I don't know.
Marc:i don't know you know the best thing to do is ask i mean i was just gonna say ask somebody who was there i was there i don't have the answer well you're a kid yeah yeah but uh so what was the choice to start i mean when you record solo albums i mean this is the wallflowers album is the first wallflowers album in years right right and the last two you did were your own albums now what does that mean really because i mean tom petty does that too and it seems like a lot of the same musicians are there what is the choice to do it that way
Guest:Well, I make those records.
Guest:If I'm going to make a record that sounds like the new record, I'd just be with my band, be with the Wallflowers.
Guest:It's a great band.
Guest:We have a sound and a thing and a history that resonates that I certainly have a great deal to do with.
Guest:So if we're not going to be working together, my mind will start racing on this opportunity to do lots of different things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the first record that I made was wasn't really intentional.
Guest:I had no intention of making that record really acoustic that way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the seeing things record that just sounds like, you know, two guitars playing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And that was the Rubin record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that really wasn't the record that I wasn't planning on doing that.
Guest:I just kind of wound up in a situation that if I was going to finish that record, that's what it was going to have to be.
Marc:Well, what did Rick want?
Marc:What was this?
Marc:I mean, how did that happen?
Marc:Why was it the situation?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I think there's a lot of people who make records that in lieu of making choices, they do nothing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because that itself has a sound.
Guest:Silence has a sound too.
Marc:It does, yeah.
Guest:So that record I wound up with, you know, that's where I felt was, we're not putting anything anywhere, so I guess what we're going to have is we're going to have a silent record.
Guest:Sparse.
Guest:Sparse.
Guest:And it's going to be, you know, it just wasn't how I started.
Guest:But, you know, that's how it became surviving, getting through that record.
Guest:I don't know, without...
Marc:Was it a bad experience?
Guest:I didn't like it.
Guest:Why?
Guest:It just wasn't, you know, because I think you got to make records with people, whoever it is, and they need to be at their creative peak and they need to be, they need to be as, they need to be as, as interested in it as insane as possible, necessary to make records.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think if you, and this happens to people all the time, you wind up in a situation where the record kind of gets away from you and what you're really trying to do now is just finish the record.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't think those, I don't think your chances are very good for making really terrific records in those circumstances.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's the situation I ended up in, which was just... It wasn't very creative.
Guest:I like everybody in the room... To be chipping in?
Guest:Yeah, and to care as much as hopefully I can.
Guest:And when you don't feel that, it's not good.
Guest:But it just depends on what you're interested in.
Guest:I don't need a...
Guest:I don't need a guru.
Guest:I don't need a father figure when I make records.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I like everybody in the room to, like, talk in musical terms and, like, what are we doing here?
Guest:Whose hands, where are you going to play?
Guest:I mean, all the talk doesn't do, it doesn't work for me.
Marc:And you felt that he was sort of positioning himself?
Guest:I didn't feel like I got it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you should also talk to a lot of people who really think that experience is really, I mean, I just missed it.
Guest:What, working with him?
Guest:Yeah, well, that kind of real cerebral record style of making records.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What exactly do you mean by cerebral?
Marc:Like there was a lot of talk about sound.
Marc:I mean, you say it's a sparse record, so what do you mean like cerebral?
Guest:Well, a lot of discussion on what makes music good.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I'm simpler than that.
Guest:So he just wanted to nerd out and you just wanted to make records.
Guest:Well, I'd be hard pressed to find the correct term for it because I do think, look, this is my experience and I think he's a terrific producer.
Guest:Some of the music he's made I think is fantastic.
Guest:I just found myself without a band in a situation that I wasn't really inspired and it wasn't feeling very creative to me and I didn't really see a way out other than to just...
Guest:kind of finish this record as simple as possible and in lieu of making a lot of decisions we'll just leave it sparse and that in itself becomes a statement which you know that's just that's not ideal for me and you talk about the other experiences with the band that's made this record and you know it's full sound man
Guest:Yeah, but making it was whatever it is.
Guest:I felt that I was using every bit I got when I was in there.
Guest:And I hope the band did themselves individually too.
Guest:But that's an atmosphere.
Guest:One of the many jobs, the most important job of a producer really is to create some atmosphere and a room and a platform for artists to come in and do the best they can.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's really as simple as it is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Somewhere along the line, the producers became artists.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And they can be.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And those can be really worthwhile records, but at their essence, really, what you're really trying to do is create space for those people to do what it is they're trying to do.
Marc:And then, like, with Rick, it was like there was too much space and it wasn't creative space.
Guest:I didn't feel... Do you like any of it?
Guest:Oh, I really like the... I do like the record.
Guest:It sounds like a struggle to me when I hear it.
Guest:I can hear what the... Oh, right.
Guest:Well, yeah, and I don't feel... You know, I feel like those songs, when I hear them, boy, they really could use a lot more exploration and...
Marc:Do you play them live with that exploration?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I filled them out.
Guest:But, you know, I say all this was saying, no regrets.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You're the one who's there at the time.
Guest:You can do whatever you want to do.
Guest:I'm not pointing any fingers.
Guest:I'm just saying in retrospect, you know, I thought there was a little too much pressure put on the songs.
Guest:The song is not... It's the key and it's the important thing, as they say, or it's the, you know, song is king or whatever, all those...
Guest:things they say but um but there are there should be other things too doesn't have to be only the song right and that's how i felt when making that record was like geez like could i even get a background anything like anything here do you think he was trying to make you your dad no i don't think he's yeah i've yeah i don't really know that he knows that music i don't really know if that's what the point was you know because like i i just wonder because there were so many of those records that he did that were just stripped down to nothing
Guest:Not for many, many years, really.
Guest:He did that for a very short time.
Guest:People forget with the acoustic guitar stand.
Guest:It was a brief, brief moment.
Guest:It's not a trick that works for everybody.
Guest:Having people sit alone and be completely exposed and vulnerable is not great for everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not saying it wasn't great for me.
Guest:I'm just saying you can't do it for everybody.
Guest:It's not effective for everybody.
Marc:Because it seems to me that what you see in it, just in talking about Johnny Cash, is like, yeah, that's not the way that guy's supposed to be.
Guest:That's not who that guy is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you don't want to see them fragile.
Guest:Yeah, well, right.
Guest:I mean, I don't know that in his state that he was aware of what it looked like for people who admired him so much.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:When you were put in the position by Rick to be fragile and vulnerable, you were uncomfortable as well.
Guest:Because I don't feel fragile and vulnerable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm aware.
Guest:It doesn't really...
Guest:You know, look, I'm glad I did it because I think everybody, I think you should, I think it's completely exposed and it is transparent.
Guest:It is what it is.
Guest:And I think it's, if I hadn't done it then, maybe eventually I would at some point.
Guest:I don't know that I wrote the songs that were best suited for that approach because I wasn't planning on making that kind of record at the time.
Guest:But it became about just at some point getting through the record.
Guest:But the record, it's meant a lot to a lot of people, so I'm not... But when I hear it, I just hear myself entirely only, so it's different for me.
Guest:But it's meant a lot to a lot of people, so I'm not stepping on that at all.
Marc:And the Women & Country record, who produced that?
Marc:That's T-Bone.
Marc:That's T-Bone.
Marc:And what brought you together with Case and some of her people?
Guest:You know, T-Bone and I just brainstormed who was the best singer out there.
Guest:There was a lot of holes left on the record for background vocals, and she was the only person on our list, Nico.
Guest:That was it?
Guest:Yeah, that was it.
Guest:I mean, she's special.
Guest:She's just got something that we could already tell.
Guest:That record's very cast, and I looked at that record very much as a performance and almost as a play to some degree.
Guest:That record could be performed.
Guest:It could be on stage.
Guest:As a whole record?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It is a very thematic record.
Guest:What would the play be about?
Guest:Well, I use a very specific dialogue and language in that record.
Guest:And it was the time, the recession was just really crushing everybody at the time.
Guest:And we were just beginning to see, for a lot of people, we were just starting to see a new normal that was about to come.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, but I didn't want to write that in modern language, so I'd use language and words that I thought were more suited, almost more for Dust Bowl or The Depression.
Guest:And once it got moving, it exposed itself, and I could figure out how to write the rest of it.
Guest:And I did feel like I was writing something that could be on stage.
Marc:Oh, and you never thought... Well, someone's got to ask me, right?
Guest:Can I do that myself?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can do that myself, right?
Guest:Yeah, of course you can.
Guest:I think it'd be interesting.
Marc:You could do it over at Largo, man.
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Guest:You could just get my friends come out while... Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:If you approach Flanagan at Largo...
Guest:So do like a stage production.
Guest:I don't mean like perform the songs.
Guest:I mean like get actors and do it.
Marc:Oh, you want to make a play?
Marc:Yeah, I want to make a play.
Marc:Oh, I thought you thought that the music itself had a feeling of a continuity of a singular performance that you wanted to perform in a certain way as an album.
Guest:No, I want to do a play.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You know anybody?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You want to write your play?
Guest:I need someone to help me write it, and then I'm going to need probably about 12 actors.
Guest:Believe me.
Marc:I need costumes.
Marc:Look, if this airs, which it will, and I will get emails, and I'll forward you.
Guest:I need a good lighting director, most important.
Guest:Dude, the emails will come in, man.
Marc:You're going to be producing a play soon.
Marc:Okay, let's do it.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, look.
Marc:I don't know why I keep pressing it, because I imagine that you've learned to deflect it.
Guest:Give me another one.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:What do you got?
Marc:I don't have anything, really, other than for some reason.
Marc:Have you ever covered your old man's songs?
Marc:No.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Guest:Uh, well, you know, I'll do anything for enough money, but like for, I'm not going to be a freak for anybody and I'm not going to help anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not going to help anybody relive something they can squint their eyes and imagine it's some other year.
Guest:Like I'm not into it.
Guest:No, it was for a great, great.
Guest:I mean, you want to pay me a ton of money or get a great organization or something that had a real purpose.
Guest:And we don't, someone wants to front cause it'd be a freak show for people.
Marc:Okay, so your policy is just to avoid the expectation of that and to sort of like not.
Guest:My policy is to avoid the feel that I would get from seeing people look at me doing that.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, it's his kid.
Guest:Yeah, the whole thing is far too cute and uncomfortable feeling for me.
Guest:I'm not going to help anybody relive that moment.
Guest:Here's where we are and I'm going to do something different.
Marc:Right, but as a songwriter, do you have pieces of his that you're like, holy fuck, that were sort of templates in your mind, at least?
Guest:Oh, yeah, every guy sitting in this chair that comes in here who plays music, those are all templates.
Guest:I mean, it's all the rule book, and I know it as well as nearly everybody, and I have access.
Guest:If I've got questions, I can get them answered.
Guest:By him?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:I mean, I would never...
Guest:I would never even suggest what those answers might be because I'm just fortunate to have it and it's unique for me and I'm glad about that.
Guest:And if he wanted to share with everybody else, I'm sure he would.
Guest:So I consider it confidential if he shares it with me.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Like structural questions or magical questions about... About songwriting?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we've had countless discussions about it.
Guest:And a lot of it's really helpful.
Guest:A lot of it...
Guest:Does it make sense?
Guest:Well, a lot of it doesn't.
Guest:You know what it is?
Guest:It's songwriting.
Guest:It's really hard to give anybody advice on songwriting.
Guest:I can tell you, here's your two verses, here's your rhyme scheme.
Guest:But guys who write like that, they don't really know how they're doing it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It just happens to them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They're possessed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There, you know, I used to not really love that thought about, you know, people say that are channeling something, but I kind of have changed my mind on that.
Guest:And I think certain people, they just kind of do, they just are more receptive.
Guest:They work upstream and they grab all the good stuff before most people can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh,
Guest:I don't know what that is.
Guest:It's a combination of melody that occurs to them.
Guest:It's a combination of the words.
Guest:It's the voice.
Guest:It's all of it that, you know, that's just why some people are just simply better than others.
Guest:People hate to admit that.
Guest:They like to really think that they can just work really hard and be as good as Neil Young.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But you won't.
Guest:He will not.
Guest:It's a gift.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have there been moments where you're talking to him and you're like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:No.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:I have the shorthand.
Guest:I know what it means.
Marc:You know, because I read his book, the autobiography, and there's a good 30 or 40 pages in there where he talks about these three chords.
Marc:or some magical combination of something where it's a little, like, I get it, but, you know, like, I like that he has- You're talking about the number three.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that is confusing, that theory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm sure he believes in if anybody could figure out how to do that.
Guest:It would be, you know.
Guest:There might be a riddle in there somewhere, but I'm sure he's right.
Marc:There's a lot of riddles, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What songs, well, I don't know.
Guest:matter what's what's which songs do i like yeah that's where you're going i can see that well what do you mean it has to i mean i don't want to be asking you hackneyed questions yeah you know what truthfully i uh is there a period you know there's periods that i remember well so i have an affinity for them 70s from being you know yeah being able to be being around when they were being made um
Guest:But no, they're also wildly different.
Guest:I mean, I don't know if anybody really has a favorite era of his, period, because it's, you know, unlike most people, it's not, I like that era because those songs were better.
Guest:I mean, there's millions of reasons to like those different eras that he did.
Guest:But, you know, the stuff that I recall being around for his special...
Marc:value to me the early 70s late 70s stuff yeah you know before the religious thing no those records they're good yeah slow train coming those are great yeah and yeah i don't i don't know of really any bad records empire burlesque was a little difficult but i like that record a lot yeah it's a good i heard one of the songs just now on the way here which was which was a song which was the one that he did wrote with sam shepherd what what album was that on that's the brownsville girl
Marc:Yeah, and what's the album?
Guest:That's Knocked Out Loaded.
Marc:Yeah, that one was a little tricky.
Guest:I love that one too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're not gonna get me to say I don't like one.
Marc:I'm not trying to.
Guest:All the time in the world.
Guest:Keep coming.
Guest:I'll be here all night.
Guest:I'm not trying to confront you on anything.
Marc:Now, in terms of like,
Marc:You seem a slightly mystical bent to things.
Marc:When you were, I don't know where you lived or who with, but when he was going through all his questing religiously, did that sort of shake you at all?
Marc:Where do you stand with that spiritual business?
Guest:What was the word you used?
Marc:Was I shook?
Marc:I don't know how you were brought up religiously, but it's sort of a dramatic change when somebody in your family decides to become Christian and focus on that.
Marc:Was it prominent or put on you in any way?
Guest:No, it didn't define me.
Marc:Well, I mean, just like, was it in the house?
Marc:Was Jesus now around?
Guest:See, that's probably what I would, you know, see, there's so much speculation on what actually happened there.
Guest:I wouldn't clarify.
Guest:I mean, people have taken that ball and run with it and assume so much.
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:I mean, those records that you're talking about, I mean,
Guest:Anybody can listen to those records.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:They're not demanding in any way, I don't believe.
Guest:But that I wouldn't... He said whatever he's wanted to say about that stuff.
Guest:I wouldn't add any comments to what that was like.
Marc:Where do you stand in terms of the unknown there with spiritual business?
Guest:Where do I stand with it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That is so broad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, you seem to have a good sense of, like, things happening for a reason, and this happened for a reason, and, you know, there's a... That's a lazy man's perspective.
Marc:All right.
Guest:I've been called lazy.
Guest:Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I'm sure with the question.
Guest:Am I spiritual?
Guest:Well, I mean, what's your belief system?
Guest:Were you brought up Jewish?
Guest:You know, yeah, I was predominantly Jewish.
Guest:Still am.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And bar mitzvah, whole business?
Guest:Yep, I sure did.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:And speaking of all that, I have a bar mitzvah card from June and Johnny Cash.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Got it at home.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:And you have kids too, right?
Marc:I do.
Marc:And are they bar mitzvah age yet?
Guest:Yeah, they're not going to be doing that.
Guest:No.
Guest:They can do it at any time, I suppose, but we didn't enforce that.
Marc:And you're not going to push it on the big party and the...
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Marc:Was yours a big deal?
Marc:Did you have a party?
Guest:Yeah, I had a party.
Guest:You know, I remember like most kids at that age, like part of what's really, what they're stoked about is they're hearing about their friends making all this money at these bar mitzvahs.
Guest:You know, so they convinced themselves that's going to be great.
Guest:I don't know about all the stuff I got to memorize.
Guest:And, you know, yeah, I don't know how much they really taught me at 13.
Guest:I couldn't, you know, a lot of a lot of times they're just shoveling, shoving you through it to school and get you a bar mitzvah.
Guest:And it's important, of course, you know, the Hebrew school.
Guest:yeah it's you know but uh i recall people making like so much so much with kids making all this money and bragging about a school maybe they were lying yeah but i remember kids coming to school saying like the next weekend like i made seventy thousand dollars oh my god that's what i thought so this is this would be pretty good i mean this i can get through this next week because i'm gonna be so rich yeah as if i get it anyway like it's coming to me yeah but i think uh i was wildly disappointed i think the number i had was something like 12.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I guess it all depends on who comes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Who the invites are out to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you like the Hanukkah candles and stuff?
Marc:Do you do that business?
Marc:We usually do that, yeah.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't light any this year and I felt bad about it.
Marc:It's over, right?
Guest:Yeah, you missed it.
Guest:Missed the window?
Guest:You missed it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this record, in terms of sound and songwriting, it doesn't sound like other Wallflowers, really.
Marc:It's a little more rocky, isn't it?
Marc:Do you feel?
Marc:Rock's a little harder.
Guest:Yeah, you know, that could be one way to describe it.
Guest:We just came with a lot of energy having not played together for seven years.
Guest:We just didn't feel like there was a lot of time to waste playing mid-tempo things and slow.
Guest:And we have plenty of those for days.
Guest:Our records are filled up with lots of that material.
Guest:So, you know, this really just started in the studio where we rehearsed and we just...
Guest:We just made songs there together as we did when we were starting out.
Guest:Things change along the way.
Guest:You find different ways of making music.
Guest:I'd gone down there with the very distinct idea that I know one thing for sure is that we need to be in the room together playing.
Guest:I don't really think I need to come down here at 15 minutes.
Guest:finish songs and instruct everybody what to do.
Guest:Let's just get in the room and bang things around until songs start to develop.
Guest:And that doesn't mean anything towards being hasty with songwriting because you can't just do that.
Guest:Songs are really important.
Guest:Since technology's kind of helping right now, a lot of people are making these great sounding records.
Guest:but they're forgetting to spend some time writing the songs.
Guest:They're using really familiar grooves and tones and sounds.
Guest:It's all there, but the song's just kind of not quite there.
Guest:So I wouldn't overlook that.
Guest:I just had gone with a lot of lyrics.
Guest:I'd gone with all the lyrics necessary to have a record, but I just hadn't really fine-tuned what the songs would be.
Marc:And then you got with the guys, and they sort of evolved.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Well, it's a good record, man, and thank you for talking.
Marc:Got anything else on your mind?
Sure.
Guest:Give me a minute.
Guest:Need directions?
Guest:You know where you're going?
Guest:Thank God for the GPS or whatever it is I got now.
Guest:I imagine in the old days, if I'd had this written down on a piece of paper,
Marc:yeah no i mean we used to be able to do that it was yeah we were equipped we didn't know any better i'm a little concerned that because of all the convenience that we're not using the parts of our memory that will uh continue to serve us i think there was something about how many phone numbers do you know right now none i know a couple remember how many you used to know a lot you had a lot in there
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And when you went somewhere, you take a left at the gas station, take a right at the car there, and you communicated with somebody else.
Guest:I wasn't paying attention when we walked back here.
Guest:I'm going to use my GPS just to get back to my car.
Marc:I'll walk you out, man.
Guest:You'd be so kind.
Marc:Yeah, and look, I hope you find that Telecaster.
Guest:Yeah, man, I'll find it.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Marc:Well, that's that.
Marc:I think that went pretty well.
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:It was actually a pleasure to talk to him.
Marc:We had a nice chat after the actual interview took place, and I brought him in, and I made him listen to ZZ Top on my new stereo.
Marc:It was kind of funny because...
Marc:He's allergic to cats, so he had to listen to ZZ Top standing out in front of my house through the screen door.
Marc:But I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:Go to WTFPod for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:All my tour dates are up there for the Out of the Garage tour.
Marc:You can go to LiveNation.com or Ticketmaster.com.
Marc:you know, pick up those tickets, find out if I'm going to be near you.
Marc:I'm very excited about it.
Marc:And also this weekend, I will be in Raleigh, North Carolina at Good Nights on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, the 10th, 11th, and 12th.
Guest:I will be there.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:We good?
Guest:All right.
Guest:Boomer lives!
you