Episode 344 - Jon Favreau
Guest:Alright, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fuckineers?
Guest:What the fuckstables?
Guest:What the fucknicks?
Guest:What the fuckinavians?
Guest:What the fucknadians?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What the fuckaholics?
Marc:What the fuckensteins?
Marc:I don't even know anymore.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:All right, before I start rambling about myself, my heart goes out to anybody who has a kid, honestly, and certainly the people in Connecticut who lost people in this horrible, shitty thing.
Marc:It's just fucking sad and evil and fucked up.
Marc:And it's almost impossible for me to wrap my brain around it.
Marc:It's horrifying.
Marc:I find myself avoiding the coverage because sometimes I feel it's so predatory.
Marc:But obviously, something horrible has happened.
Marc:There's nothing we can do about what has happened.
Marc:But certainly, there's something that can be done in the future around this.
Marc:But right now it's just awful.
Marc:It's just fucking awful.
Marc:So I'm sorry for your pain out there.
Marc:All right, so let's move into other things, can we?
Marc:I don't know how to speak to that for a long time.
Marc:But I can do other things.
Marc:John Favreau is my guest today.
Marc:Lovely conversation with Mr. Favreau here in the garage.
Marc:He doesn't do that, these things that often or at all.
Marc:And we had met briefly and I enjoyed his company very much.
Marc:He's a very nice guy.
Marc:Earned what he has, has a good story.
Marc:Open, great guest.
Marc:It was a pleasure.
Marc:He was concerned after the interview.
Marc:He said, well, now I just got to worry about what you're going to say about me before.
Marc:Now, I don't think I sandbag anybody here in this opening.
Marc:Maybe there's a tonal issue.
Marc:Sometimes my tone might seem, I don't know if condescending is the right word or dismissive, but I had a pleasant conversation, John.
Marc:If you're listening, it was a very pleasant conversation.
Marc:And I've done a lot of these things and I enjoy talking to you.
Marc:Is that going to be enough for you, John?
Marc:Do you hear what I'm saying?
Marc:Is it coming from the right place?
Marc:Let me try to regulate.
Marc:Let me try to balance my heart.
Marc:Let me sit up right in my chair and get my chakras in line.
Marc:So I'm speaking from my core when I say this.
Marc:John, it was lovely.
Marc:And everybody who's listening outside of Jon Favreau, you're going to enjoy it as well.
Marc:But moving on, occasionally I go look at homes.
Marc:My girlfriend, Jessica, enjoys looking at homes.
Marc:She watches House Hunters.
Marc:But then at some point I must have said something like, yeah, maybe I could get a new house.
Marc:I don't know if I can really afford it, but I guess that could happen.
Marc:So now there's a sort of every other day, you know, laying in bed, iPad comes into my face and I'm looking at a home.
Marc:And now occasionally we'll go out and look at homes.
Marc:And I guess I could buy a new house, but the garage is here and Boomer might come back and I still need to stucco this shitty back portion and I need to clean my deck and the floor has a hole in it that I'm going to get to.
Marc:But I might not get to it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But nonetheless, I'm fine.
Marc:This is the first house I ever owned and it was very traumatizing just buying a home the first time.
Marc:The thought of moving this stuff.
Marc:The only reason I would think to move was so I could finally go through my shit and throw some stuff out.
Marc:and maybe get the stuff out of storage that's in there that I haven't looked at in three years, though I am missing my Velvet Underground Live in 69 double album.
Marc:I don't know where that is or my Tom Waits vinyl.
Marc:But thank you, Mike, in Madison.
Marc:Is that where you are?
Marc:Or in Minneapolis?
Marc:Mike?
Marc:Minneapolis, I think, who sent me the Tom Waits double album.
Marc:Thank you, by the way.
Marc:It sounds fucking awesome.
Marc:So I went and looked at a home.
Marc:And of course, any home I enter, this one was was pretty beautiful.
Marc:I think it's affordable.
Marc:Probably not.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:Do I have to call a realtor?
Marc:Can I just offer the guy money?
Marc:There's a lot of things grownups do and seem to be able to manage that I find incredibly overwhelming.
Marc:Thinking about buying a new home and thinking about bringing another life into the world causes me tremendous panic.
Marc:But I need one for the other.
Marc:Do you understand?
Marc:This is the plan that's in place in Jessica's mind on some level, and it's not unreasonable.
Marc:If there is a baby, there's a new house.
Marc:If there's a new house, there's certainly going to be a baby.
Marc:They're just tied together.
Marc:I could live in this garage if necessary.
Marc:I could get a space heater, and I could live here, and I'd be okay with that.
Marc:I'd be frustrated that I seem emotionally incapable of doing something else, but I would take it as just what I have to do.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Maybe I should rent out my house and live in the garage just to fulfill that negative fantasy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So that's why I'm well.
Marc:Let's get back to the turntable.
Marc:So I'm in the stereo rabbit hole.
Marc:A new record store opens up literally within blocks of me.
Marc:So I've got permanent records on one side.
Marc:Now I've got this gimme gimme records on the other side.
Marc:So now I'm like out at both of them schmoozing the owners talking about stuff.
Marc:Hey, what's the condition on this one?
Marc:Is this a good record?
Marc:A lot of times they don't know.
Marc:Men congregate in different places.
Marc:See, this is a fundamental difference between me and, say, the Corolla Camp.
Marc:Adam, who I enjoy and like, who's very good at his job, he works in a garage.
Marc:He enjoys having cars around.
Marc:I look under a hood.
Marc:I'm lost.
Marc:I don't know what goes on in there.
Marc:And what if I turn this thing?
Marc:Ow, I just burn myself.
Marc:I better go to a guy that knows what they're doing.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I know my way around a guitar a little bit.
Marc:I know how to adjust one.
Marc:I know my way around stereo equipment and record stores.
Marc:Men congregate in weird places, any place where you can sit and talk to other dudes about bullshit, whether it's gear or music or a turntable or guitar, whatever it is, a hardware store is another classic place where men congregate.
Marc:Now, I'm not trying to keep the ladies out here.
Marc:Or be exclusionary.
Marc:But I'm just finding that lately in my life.
Marc:I'm very fortunate in that.
Marc:I've got a few places to sit and waste time.
Marc:To talk bullshit about things I know about.
Marc:With other dudes who are sitting there.
Marc:And feel like they want to receive that bullshit.
Marc:It's a joy that I haven't experienced lately.
Marc:And I'm back in it.
Marc:Let's talk to Jon Favreau.
Marc:Or Favreau.
Marc:Favreau.
Marc:Favreau.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:I'll ask him.
Marc:I've questioned the pronunciation of your last name.
Marc:Favreau.
Marc:Not Favreau.
Marc:No, Favreau.
Marc:Favreau.
Marc:You prefer that?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:That's what it's been.
Marc:You were brought up with that?
Guest:Until I go to a French-speaking.
Marc:And then what happens?
Guest:Then they say it the right way.
Marc:Which is what?
Guest:I think it's Favreau or Favreau.
Marc:Favreau.
Guest:Favreau, yeah.
Guest:You know, I grew up with nobody knowing how to say my name, and then you go to, like, Quebec, and then there.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Is that part of your heritage?
Guest:Yeah, I think that's where the father's father strain comes from.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, the father's side's Italian Catholic with some French Canadian in there, and then the mother's side's Russian Jewish.
Guest:nice yes so you got the the full treatment got it all got it from both sides i do yeah it's a good mix yeah it's a good it's like uh you know it's like how do you mix a beagle and a cavalier well no the the italian sort of uh jew thing's good there's a lot of food and a lot of uh loud conversation yeah yeah yeah it's a lot of heat yes yeah there's not much uh held back it's a good it's a good uh it mixes well
Marc:You can move it closer even.
Guest:Am I not doing the WTF sound?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It's the sound, but these are those mics.
Marc:You get right up on them.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I've heard a lot of them now.
Guest:I met you at This Is 40.
Guest:The screening.
Guest:First, I was very flattered to be asked by Judd.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Judd and I go back a ways.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I had never been to one of the screenings of his films before they were, you know.
Marc:Was that that fancy whatever the hell that is?
Guest:Soho House.
Guest:Are you part of that?
Guest:I am now.
Guest:After that?
Guest:After that, because of that, that screening brought me around.
Guest:I said, I got to be a part of this thing.
Guest:i might need a room it became it became because i'm a west side guy so you know if you and i were to meet yeah that's a good place to say come meet and sure in the middle and if you're with people who are who are uh don't want to be photographed or have right you know they just get out of the car in the garage right they're upstairs and
Marc:So that's the thing.
Marc:It's sort of like, hey, sir, I'm a member.
Marc:I'll put your name down there.
Guest:Kind of like that, yeah.
Guest:And I'd been going before I was, and I don't go out to socialize.
Guest:I think that was maybe the last time I was socializing when I saw you a few months ago.
Marc:What do you do after a certain age?
Marc:I mean, and you've got kids.
Marc:I mean, what the hell?
Marc:What does socializing mean?
Marc:And you're visible, but you're not like, you know, I don't imagine the paparazzi chases you down, but...
Guest:No, but if they're there, they'll, they'll take a picture.
Guest:They won't chase me, but they'll, you know, they'll, it's no, there's no film anymore.
Guest:So what, you know, it's a couple, a couple meg off the chip.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:You know, with my mouth open and, you know, with my kids or something.
Marc:You're not a train wreck that they need to monitor.
Guest:No, thankfully.
Guest:That seems to be the best defense as being as boring as you possibly can be.
Marc:So I work at it.
Marc:It's just Favreau.
Marc:Favreau.
Guest:It's fine.
Marc:Which one is it?
Marc:You'll edit it out.
Guest:Let's call it Favreau, but I like whatever you say is fine.
Marc:Favreau.
Marc:Yes, it's not.
Marc:It's just Favreau.
Guest:It's another improper pronunciation that I've grown accustomed to.
Guest:It sounds Italian, which worked well with my heritage.
Marc:But that club, I don't think I'd ever go there, but you find yourself going there.
Guest:Yeah, it's fine.
Guest:It's no different than any place else.
Guest:I like the fact that they say no photography there.
Marc:Right, but if you're meeting an actor or somebody.
Guest:It's nice because you can't always have a thing.
Guest:I now have an office, but I had an office in my house, and it's just kind of weird.
Guest:Come over.
Guest:It depends who you're meeting.
Guest:For this, it's perfect.
Guest:It puts you in the right mood.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know where else I'm going to go.
Marc:I could bring the mics to you.
Guest:I could have met you at the Soho Club.
Guest:But I have to tell you, so when we met, I kind of knew you, but I never met you.
Guest:And I'd seen you on Louie, and I'd seen you a number of places.
Guest:And I sort of figured out, it's sort of a constellation of-
Guest:of things where I felt like I knew you.
Guest:But then I started listening to your podcast.
Guest:I started listening to this to see what it was.
Guest:Because you had said, hey, we should do it sometime.
Marc:And you're like, sure.
Guest:And you said it as though I would know what it is, and I didn't know what it was.
Guest:But I wanted to listen to it.
Guest:And it sort of opened my eyes up to this whole podcast culture, which I was...
Guest:Somewhat, I heard about it.
Marc:Yeah, we're down here on the ground, John.
Marc:We're down here amongst the people.
Guest:I think it's a good thing.
Guest:It's the flip side of new media.
Guest:You're so aware of the click-through journalism where it's the most sensational headline to get you to click, and then you read it and it's not what you thought it was going to do.
Marc:Right, it's one paragraph of nothing, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and it's all about getting that click.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:This is the opposite.
Guest:This is like long form.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Conversation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For an hour with somebody.
Guest:And if you're into that person, it's that narrow casting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, let's get really specific and we don't have to appeal to everybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was it was really I really appreciate it because I don't know if you remember on IFC.
Guest:You have a show on IFC coming up.
Marc:Yeah, I got a half hour.
Marc:You had to party a dinner for five.
Marc:Dinner for five.
Guest:Dinner for five, yeah.
Marc:So you were doing the conversation thing.
Guest:There was that type of thing that was appealing to me of this idea of getting interesting people talking in a way that they would speak as you would a normal conversation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I wasn't competing for late night views against some other show.
Guest:There was no ratings incentive.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we grinded out like 50 episodes.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I wish at that time it was more relevant so I could be invited to the table.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I wasn't, and it looked like a fun thing.
Guest:You would have been great.
Guest:As a matter of fact, we found that the people that you gravitate to because of your comedy background, we always wanted somebody from that world.
Marc:Yeah, they were always on.
Marc:Believe me, I knew it.
Marc:I was there seething in my living room.
Marc:Of course I was.
Marc:Were you?
Marc:Like, why the fuck is that guy on there?
Guest:But you know how it is.
Guest:It was a real...
Guest:homespun thing.
Marc:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Marc:I'm not mad at you.
Guest:I'm not mad at you.
Guest:But you did want to get people who kind of knew each other already because what I really loved was a crosstalk.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And if you notice, I didn't even ask questions.
Guest:We would always edit any of that out.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And just roll into it.
Guest:And so seeing this podcast culture is like –
Guest:The audience has finally come around where people will be able to seek out the people and the types of conversations that they want Right, and then you don't have to be afraid about appealing to the least common denominator Yeah, you have to peel to anybody there's there's thousands of podcasts out there that you know There's just a guy in a room.
Marc:Yeah, you know going on you know, I don't it's like I'm waiting for people to find those guys I'm waiting for the Nirvana of the podcast world like this guy is in his basement in Austin and
Marc:He's a genius.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:I mean, it is great that there's no more, you know, the gatekeepers don't really exist in the same way.
Marc:They'll figure out a way to lock us down.
Guest:It is great, though.
Guest:So I became very enamored with the show, primarily because I...
Guest:I cut my teeth in Chicago.
Guest:I grew up in New York, but I moved to Chicago to chase the second city dream.
Guest:And I was a dishwasher there, and I was in improv groups.
Guest:And the whole flip side, you're the whole stand-up culture.
Guest:I was on the improv side of the culture.
Guest:Yeah, I talked to a lot of those cats.
Guest:And I've listened to probably most.
Guest:I subscribed.
Guest:I have all the archives.
Guest:And what's great for me is there's a lot of people that I haven't
Guest:talked to in many many years that you've had on the show and it feels like I'm catching up I pop in the earbuds I fall asleep doesn't bother the wife I used to listen to Charlie Rose falling asleep now I listen to you and you know that's interesting because Charlie Rose seems like he's falling asleep a lot of times I think but it is as close to an in-depth conversation as you get on TV so you know like John Glazer Dave Koechner Jody Lennon guys you hung out with people that I spent years with but haven't been in contact with
Guest:And so it's a wonderful way that I feel like I'm catching up with people.
Marc:Have you reached out to anybody after hearing the show?
Marc:I haven't.
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:But, you know, a lot of people have seen what I've been up to, too, because it's been kind of out there and I've done a lot of publicity.
Guest:But it's great to see the good work that a lot of these people are doing that I wasn't aware of.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I got kind of plucked out of that world when I got cast in the movie Rudy.
Right.
Marc:out of chicago and i got kind of pulled out and and went on a whole other path with swingers and everything what led that what what started though you grew up what part of new york queens grew up in queens because i lived in astoria for a while oh yeah yeah and the new in the hip astoria or it wasn't hip when i was there it was it was i don't i i'm finding it hard to believe that it's hip i mean i was there i think i got that place in the mid 90s and i kept it for like 15 years right
Marc:And maybe it was getting a little hip, but it's very hard to shake.
Marc:It's a very international community.
Marc:So there's hipsters there, but they're definitely outnumbered by I don't know where everybody's from.
Marc:But I know Queens, so you grew up where?
Guest:Like Forest Hills and then College Point.
Guest:I mean, Dad was a teacher, a public school teacher.
Guest:And, you know, but got out of this, you know, got this the city experience through going to a high school called Bronx High School of Science, which drew kids from all over the city.
Marc:It was a special school.
Marc:It was it was school.
Marc:You have to take a test for a public school.
Marc:What was your what was your angle?
Guest:What was your science?
Guest:Science.
Guest:Like, I always liked performing, but it was never.
Guest:never an option right and it wasn't practical it wasn't it wasn't like to go to like the school of i guess visual arts i was a cartoon i like to draw i'm a cartoonist also or uh performing arts that like fame that wasn't really an option for me you weren't a song and dance man it also wasn't like that my dad was like you could do that later you know get get it get a night you know don't specialize too early don't throw it away yet
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of like have something, you know, and so I went to there and it was very good experience because I met the smartest kids from every borough and even the screw-ups were smart.
Guest:Were you a nerdy guy?
Guest:I was, you know, I went through a lot of phases.
Marc:Like what was the first one?
Marc:First one was... Was there chess?
Guest:No, it was worse.
Guest:It was Dungeons and Dragons was first, freshman year.
Guest:That's how you locked in?
Guest:That was my first one.
Guest:You put me with other smart kids.
Guest:I was a guy who I think I liked the escapism of it, the fantasy.
Guest:I had lost my mom a few years before, which I've later come to learn really does a lot to define...
Guest:How old were you?
Marc:Like 15?
Guest:I was younger.
Guest:I was like 11 or 12.
Guest:It was rough.
Guest:My folks were split up at the time.
Guest:And you go into that teenage malaise anyway.
Guest:And then to have that, you protect yourself from it at the time.
Marc:The loss.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You just don't go through it when you're too young.
Guest:It's like there's some sort of spiritual protective shield you get because you just can't handle that stuff.
Guest:And it does affect the way you develop and grow up and it changes who you are as a person and your work and you learn.
Marc:through your work what you're what's really ticking inside you well how long did it what do you what do you think uh what can you hang on that experience is defining you know in terms of like because i understand what you're talking about with the grief because you just you you can only handle so much at a certain time but how do you think it sort of defined you know who you were
Guest:you know it's it's you know when you're in a romantic mood it feels like it's you know created this you know it it's the sand that makes the pearl yeah yeah yeah right it's the i mean when you're and you see it in your work and if you look at you know there's you know pain is a great source of inspiration and it affects relationships that you've had the way you interact yeah yeah the rest of your life and and um
Guest:And I think my whole, you know, I think as I look back, I mean, what's really good is you look at all the movies, even the funny ones.
Guest:It's like a sad, you know, there's a sorrow.
Marc:Well, I'm thinking of Swingers.
Marc:Swingers like that.
Marc:He has a heavy hearted guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was sort of desperately looking for a connection that, you know, I could, you know, there was definitely.
Guest:Yeah, there's that.
Guest:I think that that kind of... He needed to be parented, that guy.
Guest:I think it is.
Guest:But at the time, it's just, hey, let's make an exaggeration of an aspect of my personality.
Guest:And that was the improv.
Guest:I learned all that from the improv training, which is just exaggerate anything and it leads to some form of satire.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And so I was exaggerating.
Marc:I should learn that.
Marc:I should learn that.
Marc:Improv?
Marc:Exaggeration.
Marc:Well, you do it.
Marc:I need to exaggerate more.
Guest:Do I kind of?
Guest:Sure you do.
Guest:You observe.
Guest:You're a naturalist, but then you exaggerate, and it creates satire.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You take things to their extreme, and that's what makes it funny.
Guest:You're not doing goofy characters.
Guest:You're making observations, and you're distorting them in a way that sheds further...
Marc:further light on.
Marc:I always wonder, like, satire is one of those weird terms where it's sort of hard to define, you know, I can define parody and I can define, you know, but just the idea of satirizing, you know, I hope I'm a character, but you won't have to make it about me yet.
Guest:It's a good, we're going to get there because I'm listening to you talk a lot.
Marc:So Dungeons and Dragons, how long did that last?
Guest:That was like a year.
Marc:Like hardcore?
Marc:Were you wearing outfits?
Marc:Were you hanging around?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It wasn't about.
Guest:It was pre-internet or conventions.
Marc:It was just sports mart kids rolling the dice.
Guest:You're hanging out with other kids that aren't too athletic.
Guest:And it's fun games.
Guest:But it's like theater games, too, and creating worlds.
Guest:And then it just hits you how this is not.
Guest:Why am I choosing this lot in life?
Guest:uh you know and and then you discover like rock and roll and drinking you gotta let that let those guys go and and you do and and you know we're still friends with with some of them uh but it was a great it was a you know it was you know there's a lot of imagination it helped you out in the grief i guess you know like maybe some escapism yeah and then you then you know then you get until like then there was like hardcore punk and going to cbgb's and checking that out or rock or or heavy metal when did pussy come in
Guest:Oh, that's the second half hour of the show.
Guest:That's not for a while.
Guest:That's Dungeon and Dragons.
Guest:That happened in college more.
Marc:Way boomer, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, a little bit in high school, but it was, you know, we were, there was a lot of academics.
Guest:There was, you know, an hour and a half commute to school every day.
Guest:So there wasn't a big social scene.
Marc:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:and you were there and they kept you really busy with academics which was you know looking back gave me a really good broad foundation of a little bit of knowledge in every area and i remember when i would study with um del close who i know you've talked about here when i went to chicago and his whole thing is why would you ever study theater if you wanted to be in the arts why why would you not want to study everything why would you want to study certain specific plays over and over again when you could get
Guest:really broad spectrum of everything.
Guest:You should be studying, you know, philosophy, psychology, history, English.
Guest:So what was his sense of what acting was then?
Guest:His whole thing was, you know, what was interesting about Del was he was the guy who was like the keeper of the flame because he had, you know, worked with Bill Murray and John Belushi and all, you know, the age of
Guest:yeah that inspired me that first wave of uh of the second city people and he was with the previous wave with the compass players oh really and then he was there also when i landed there uh chris farley was not even on stage here there yet and i had seen him perform i was going cross country i remember jumping around a bit i was going cross country and i stopped there to visit a friend
Guest:And I got called up onto the stage and interviewed for a game called The Dream where an improv group would, somebody would interview you about what happened and then they would exaggerate your day and act out your dream.
Guest:And I kind of realized that the improv wasn't all like pre-prepared little bits because I know that they didn't have any prior knowledge to what I was going to tell them and they did this incredibly...
Guest:comprehensive take for 20 minutes on this monologue I just gave.
Guest:And Chris Farley was up there and he was playing me.
Guest:And I was like, I thought everybody was that good.
Guest:I was like, these guys are good.
Guest:What had you done at that point?
Guest:And that was at the ImprovOlympic.
Guest:That was even before he was at Second City.
Guest:That was just in the back room of a bar watching these people perform.
Guest:And I was really, really impressed and decided I was going to move there and make a run at it.
Marc:Okay, so you went to the high school.
Marc:I went to rock science.
Marc:And then you got out of Dungeons & Dragons and you didn't play rock and roll.
Guest:No, I didn't play rock and roll, but I got into listening to music.
Guest:And then by the time I was like an upperclassman, it wasn't about what clique you were in at that point.
Guest:We were all sort of individuals who knew each other and we'd all lived through each trend that the other person had been in.
Marc:Right, the outfits and the...
Marc:yeah so it was just like eight you know i graduated 84 so it was like the 80s and people you know by then i had had been going into the city and so you would you get some of the downtown culture isn't that great isn't that great to have had that it was great i mean i had to fly back there to get that but you know i had family in jersey but we would fly back to visit the grandma and stuff i always go into the city it definitely you know it's if you sponge that shit up when you're young yeah it's the best and
Guest:And you get that weird, that like spider sense where you know when you're in a bad area or you got to watch out.
Guest:Like you get a sense of from riding trains late at night.
Marc:I'm going to walk in the middle of the street now.
Guest:You kind of know where you're safe and you're not.
Guest:You can't point your finger at what it is.
Guest:And then there's other people I know that have grown up without that experience who are somewhat oblivious.
Guest:And when you're on location in different parts of the world, it's good to have a little bit of that.
Marc:Maybe not that.
Guest:Maybe we won't ride in this subway car.
Marc:Did you ever do that thing where you walk in the middle of the street?
Marc:Because you feel like something's going to happen, someone's behind you?
Marc:No, not that bad.
Marc:But you know which car you're going to ride on it at certain times in the night.
Marc:You walk in, oh, not with that guy.
Guest:Let's sit by the conductor.
Guest:So did you go to college?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I went to Queens College.
Guest:And you went all the way through?
Guest:I went not all the way through.
Guest:I sort of didn't know what I was going to do.
Guest:And then it hit the socializing hit.
Guest:And that's when you started to...
Guest:meet women and have keg parties and it became you know that that was the experience of of that part of my life and meeting really cool fun people yeah and being involved with but not really knowing where i wanted to land no theater yet no i did like a little bit of theater as a minor you know i wasn't even a minor and i did like i would i would audition and then i got i remember i got one of the leads in glengarry glen ross and that's when i realized you know maybe i'm
Guest:Because the theater people were like, they were really taking it seriously, and I certainly enjoyed doing it.
Guest:But again, I never saw it as a realistic option.
Marc:Because of your dad?
Guest:Yeah, I felt like I was going to be a waiter.
Guest:I was being super realistic about it all.
Guest:And then I got hired to work at Bear Stearns by a friend's father.
Guest:The investment house.
Marc:The investment house.
Marc:As what?
Guest:In what capacity?
Guest:It was facilities planning.
Guest:The guy's dad needed an assistant.
Guest:They were expanding for a big move uptown.
Yeah.
Guest:And I got brought in and had the yellow tie and worked for a year on Wall Street, you know, not on the trading floor, but in a support capacity.
Guest:And and that's when I kind of realized that there was going to be a huge that this life is you work 50 weeks for two weeks off and you don't do anything but work and you bust your ass and and and.
Guest:And half the time, people don't recognize what you're doing.
Guest:It was a little bit overwhelming.
Marc:You had that weird flash of the future.
Guest:This could be the rest of my life.
Guest:I got to get the fuck out of here.
Guest:I kind of knew it was a little bit odd.
Guest:And then I gave my two-week notice after close to a year.
Guest:And a week into my two-week notice, the market crashed.
Yeah.
Guest:And on my birthday, that was black, whatever it was, black Monday, I think.
Guest:Friday or Monday.
Guest:October 19th.
Marc:And did you see the ripples?
Marc:Did you see people?
Guest:Well, again, I wasn't on the floor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I knew something was weird that day I went into work.
Guest:And it was like, boy, maybe this is a sign I did the right thing.
Guest:And I had left.
Guest:I took a motorcycle cross country.
Guest:I went back to school first, to Queens College, and then got straight A's, Dean's List.
Guest:Because you work for a year, and it's like you...
Guest:But you didn't finish.
Guest:I didn't finish because I took a trip cross country and I had taken the fire department test.
Guest:I want to be a fireman.
Guest:Didn't know what I wanted to do.
Guest:Went cross country and stopped in Chicago.
Guest:And that's where that saw improv and saw the names on the wall at Second City.
Guest:And that was everybody.
Marc:So you were an audience member when you got brought up on stage.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I was an audience member.
Marc:You were just there?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I had none of the weird... I hear a lot of people on your show talk how important stand-up was to them.
Guest:And a lot of people from theater who go to college for theater, there's this importance...
Guest:to it that i never had it was always fun whenever i got to get on stage it was a fun experience really yeah i got to be a ham i got people to laugh and um you know you were the best of the people who were in the after school play or you auditioned for a show in college and in the little theater and you got a good part so it was it was always a positive for me
Guest:And I also was doing it after school through the time when my mother was ill and passed away.
Guest:So I think that clicks something for you too.
Marc:So you were young.
Marc:You were in like early teens when you were doing little plays and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I was all through junior high school and grade school.
Guest:You know, never anything professionally.
Guest:But in school, I would always try out and get, you know, sometimes I got a big part, sometimes a small part.
Guest:But I always liked it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I always dug it.
Marc:But that's amazing that you're just the audience member.
Marc:Because I don't even know.
Marc:It's hard for me to even think about what it's like to be an audience member anymore.
Marc:I spend half my life in comedy clubs.
Marc:But that's sort of like, you're like, oh, this is cool.
Marc:I'm at a show.
Marc:I'm going to do that.
Marc:And then you're the volunteer.
Marc:And you knew.
Marc:You didn't know it was Farley or who Farley was at the time.
Marc:But he had such an effect.
Marc:Like, holy fuck.
Marc:That guy's funny.
Marc:Because he could push it out, man.
Marc:He really did.
Guest:And whatever you saw.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm sure you've heard this before, but whatever you saw in a movie or on Saturday Night Live was a fraction of what type of wattage he put out when you were in a room watching him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He just was that kind of... Yeah.
Guest:He just was... You could not look at the guy
Guest:And I had read all about Belushi, who I loved, and always the same things were said about him.
Guest:And then I worked at, so I decided to, I moved there with nothing.
Guest:I worked at Second City.
Marc:What did your old man say?
Guest:At that point, he was super cool.
Guest:He was like, you're old, and I was 22.
Guest:So you'd done the Bear Stearns thing.
Guest:He said, you're old, and I was Dean's List.
Guest:But you didn't finish.
Guest:I didn't finish.
Guest:But I was rocking A's, and I called him from Chicago.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because the woman, Sharna Halpern, who was there doing ImprovOlympic, was like, hey, would you want to perform?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'm like, really?
Guest:I felt like I was being discovered.
Guest:It was really to take classes with her.
Guest:But still, it was like, here's a sign.
Guest:And I talked to the owner of the club they were playing.
Guest:I said, I'm a bartender.
Guest:I'd been a bartender.
Guest:So I was making my money while I was in school.
Guest:I said, if I moved out here, would you give me a gig bartender?
Guest:He was like, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And I called my dad and said, I think I'm going to do this.
Guest:I'm going to move out of here.
Guest:And my dad was like, well, you're old enough that you know, and you're young enough that if you change your mind, you could still change courses.
Guest:You did your thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:uh go for it yeah uh and and i did and i moved out there and um bartended washed dishes at second city uh hosted worked the door like you worked the door uh i did i had that experience at yeah at second city right and then you'd have guests come in and sit in for the sets i'd meet dan ackroyd and
Guest:He'd take the staff out drinking at the blues bar, which is where he would go with Belushi back in the day.
Guest:And I had read all about that because I was a huge fan of that whole group.
Guest:First crew, the SNL crew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, oh, God, all these people went here.
Guest:And then I got to watch improv.
Guest:And then I got to take classes at Second City.
Guest:I took classes with Dell at ImprovOlympic.
Guest:And that was when the beginning of the experience that you had, which is you're watching every night.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:with reverence like you know you sort of like if you have a if you feel your soul is connected to this place like if you if you're so entrenched in the history of it and you there's a legacy to it and you're like how do I yeah I want to be part of this I want to live and breathe this shit that's a powerful feeling it is and it didn't have that I've heard you speak a lot about what your experience was like it was the comedy story yeah where there's a you know and I think the stand-up community there's always like sort of the sharks jets thing going on with the improvisers and
Guest:It was always about being supportive, always about the group, the team, pass the ball, don't shoot the shot.
Guest:It was the Magic Johnson that was the one we were the fan of.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The one who could dish up a laugh for somebody else.
Marc:Not a lot of that in stand-up.
Guest:Not a lot of that in stand-up.
Guest:And there's a competitiveness too, but that has to be sublimated a lot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You don't really...
Guest:But it's amazing actually listening to all of the people who are stand-ups and listening to nuances of the culture and how you kind of sit here and preside over these people making their case as to where they get their material from or what style of comedy they do.
Guest:It's fascinating.
Guest:I wasn't aware of that.
Guest:And it's like...
Guest:And this whole like, and you seem to be the person that they come to you.
Guest:They come to the garage and you preside over what, you know, who broke what rules.
Guest:It's very much like, you know.
Marc:It's a weird, it's a community.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It's a very odd community.
Marc:And, you know, and most of the people my age or even a little younger, you know where your sources are.
Marc:But you know where your sources are.
Marc:But the more I talk to improv people, the more I envy what it actually prepares you to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a whole different deal.
Marc:Well, you work with other people.
Marc:You create with other people.
Marc:You understand.
Guest:Well, your thing is like if you took somebody else's joke, that's like ape killed ape.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Right?
Guest:But in improv, if you even make a joke that you did the night before, everybody's kind of rolling their eyes a little bit.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:You should go up there with nothing.
Guest:That was Del's thing was like you should be channeling.
Guest:You should be – he talked about –
Guest:shamanistic trances and if you got a laugh along the way that's good but if you were really down there in the in the basement with dell it was not about getting a laugh it was very much about finding the truth pulling apart something like the herald you take one suggestion pull it apart group mind coming up with a new take on the truth of that now we didn't always
Guest:At the end of the day, everybody wanted to be on SNL or have a sitcom or get a movie.
Guest:So you were kind of, you know, you were kind of like balancing out your ego.
Guest:But Dell was like, you know, he was like, I was there.
Guest:I had my shots.
Guest:All the people I was with broke through.
Guest:But I keep it real.
Marc:Do you think that was an afterthought to accommodate his bitterness?
Marc:Or do you think he genuinely accepted that?
Marc:I don't, you know, I always wonder that about, because there's people that just stay and they become important.
Marc:And obviously he's revered and he's important and he's necessary.
Marc:But you always wonder like, well, what would it have been?
Marc:Like, you know, would he have?
Guest:He embraced that he's faculty, like in this big school of life.
Guest:Like you and I, I think we're sort of at that transition point where we're not students on this campus anymore.
Guest:We're kind of, we're part of the teaching staff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he, and it was, there was an elegance with which he carried that mantle and inspired and served as a beacon for people to come.
Guest:Not just the new people, but you would have, you know, I know like when Joel Murray started, because he was on stage there and Bill was like, study with Del.
Guest:Like that's what he gave, the advice he gave to his little brother.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There was a sense that there was a, he was the keeper of the flame.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like Myers was there and would teach classes in that, in their organization.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so there was a sense that you're aspiring to something.
Guest:Now, as far as like how much of it's revisionism when you look back at your own life, you know.
Guest:Doesn't really matter.
Guest:Let he without sin.
Guest:I'm guilty of the same.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And you don't even know when you're doing it because just by nature of telling yourself the story or retelling the tale, I'm sure everything I'm telling you is through the lens of
Guest:getting enough affirmation for my ego to be able to retell whatever my experience objectively.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But I just mean like, you know, I wasn't trying to, to, to trivialize it, but I just always wonder about that moment where, you know, you sort of acknowledge your limitations and you're okay with yourself.
Marc:Like you never got the sense that Dell was coming from any other place than to, to, to sort of spark a new creativity.
Marc:I think he liked that.
Guest:I think, I think, remember he also kicked dope and that was like a big part of his,
Guest:That's a big that's a big spiritual journey to be able to live in that.
Guest:And he and he I got the sense that he really embraced it when that was when it was his moment.
Guest:He lived through that period of history and in that those communities where that was part of the culture.
Guest:And he was you know he white knuckled it all the way through because I don't see him as the type of guy who got a lot of help.
Guest:Right.
Guest:From a 12-step type of deal.
Marc:That was part of his mythology.
Guest:He gave that up.
Guest:He gave up smoking.
Guest:And then he was also... I think he liked to blow minds.
Guest:He was sort of that hippie who liked to blow minds and freak people out.
Marc:And he did it.
Guest:But it was... At the end of the day, there was a...
Guest:there was a generosity in teaching and paying forward the tradition and sharing stories.
Guest:And it gave us insight into the glory days where you didn't always feel that from the culture that... What was so great about Chicago is that Chicago became like a beacon for people like me to come to.
Guest:And it was that collection of people that created this... Well, it's interesting because the legacy that you were chasing...
Marc:was Belushi and Aykroyd and those guys.
Marc:But the generation, the Compass players, I mean, that was Elaine May and Mike Nichols and Shelley Berman.
Marc:And there was a whole other thing going in the 50s.
Marc:But it was not, I don't know that the cultural relevance was the same.
Marc:Now, Chicago is...
Marc:the primary uh uh geographical incentive for most comedy right now is it kind of i mean most of the people that are on the on on television shows and whatnot you know came out of sketch and improv if you really think about it yeah it's a good training ground um especially if you're not that character oriented because as dell would say it's there's not a lot of high paying work for experts in character
Guest:because you're going to be playing some version of yourself, and that's why stand-up in many ways is good because you cultivate a persona.
Marc:Except that persona is solitary.
Marc:The thing about the persona in improv, it works with other people well.
Marc:With stand-up, it's like, this is me talking.
Marc:Why are you talking?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:No, there's definitely room for a mix, but there's people who like, I think the people who really catapult, like Adam McKay was a guy who started off in stand-up in Philly,
Guest:but then when he hit chicago he was like ready to you know that was the whole like all the ucb thing there was like a whole new generation that was coming in as i when i was there already that brought a lot of a lot of fresh energy and then also i think it seemed to it didn't encourage sort of like well you know you want to run a show or you want to direct something or you want to write some stuff with some other people yeah that there was a lot of that always going on to do a new like let's do it at this bar here yeah
Guest:Maybe Second City will notice us if we put up a show and we get a good review in the reader.
Guest:Oh, that was a lot of it.
Guest:And then you realize that by the time Second City finally wanted me to be in the touring company after lighting candles for it on a nightly basis, it was after I was already in Rudy and I was already in a big Hollywood movie and I kind of realized I kind of skipped the step.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I got the experience of washing the dishes and being there.
Marc:You didn't do the touring company.
Guest:I never got to do that.
Guest:And I dreamed of it.
Guest:You know, it was a big dream.
Guest:And then you realize it's the journey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the experience of being around those people.
Guest:And then a lot of that... I think if I had stuck around...
Guest:then we would have become the established upperclassmen there.
Guest:But I got out before that all happened.
Guest:But I got to be a part of, see what was happening, ImprovOlympic, the Annoyance Theater, UCB forming, when it was just a comedy group.
Guest:And Dell.
Guest:And Dell.
Guest:And I got to be there in the last couple years of his life and get that experience.
Marc:How did he blow your mind?
Marc:Do you remember, was there a pivotal moment where you're like, holy fuck, I never thought of it like that?
Guest:No, I think, you know, I think it was, there was a certain, you know, we weren't acolytes.
Guest:It was definitely one of the flavors of ice cream you got to sample when you were in town.
Guest:But there was a group that sort of defined themselves by being, coming from that school as opposed to doing comedy sports or doing-
Guest:Second City or, you know, game-oriented comedy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You were doing the, you know, you were sort of, it was sort of like what, in the stand-up scene, what's going on with, like, I don't know, alternative, I guess is what it was called.
Guest:There's a different thing than somebody who's doing a prop comedy.
Marc:The main street, yeah, but Dell, like, not in alternative.
Guest:Dell was like the OG movie.
Marc:Right, but he was like a Buddha.
Marc:I mean, with alternative comedy, it was a bunch of us saying like, you know, this mainstream thing, we got to figure out a different audience because we know our people are out there.
Guest:Right, so it's an oligarchy versus a monarchy or a religious theocracy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it still was that type of everybody had their...
Guest:angle on it.
Guest:And then there were the stand-up people who would sort of wander in.
Guest:And it was clear that they were dusting off some shit that they had been working up.
Guest:And there was no... He'd take those people down.
Guest:But his takedown, he was like a sensei.
Guest:It was like a dojo.
Guest:He would just...
Guest:You'd see somebody walk in and get just pinned to the mat.
Guest:Or he'd send his black belts out to be on stage and police the stage a little bit.
Marc:Corner them into being in the moment.
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:It's all using their own weight against them.
Guest:A guy like Koechner who was on here, he was there when I got there, and he was always a very facile, quick...
Guest:Uh, you know, and then he also had, you know, he's physically big, big personality, does big characters, uh, but quick, you know, quick and smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was very much the Dell, like the house team of Dell's group when I first got there.
Guest:So, you know, you learn quick, you sort of policed yourself as like a prison yard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You, you don't go for the dick joke.
Guest:You don't go for the, you know, there's certain things that are not.
Marc:And when you take those out of the arsenal, the emotional risk is elevated.
Marc:Like the risk is elevated.
Marc:It's sort of like if I can't go to the laugh that I know will happen, I'm going to have to go deeper for this thing.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And then the best one is, of course, the reactive one that they know you didn't walk on stage with that in your pocket.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Something happened that you don't even remember.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're in that zone.
Guest:And that's when you realize that you're accessing either something
Marc:a larger spirit your deepest self your subconscious whatever you want to call it there is something not there is something bigger than you happening it's the best feeling on stage when when you just you know you're you're just in this place and you you seize that moment where where you don't have that like should i say that it's already you know it's coming out yeah
Marc:And then it's like, that's never going to happen again.
Guest:Whatever just happened, that's gone.
Guest:And when you find somebody who's loose enough that they could just channel that stuff and it just comes out, then that's the people that you start watching and start wanting to.
Guest:And you can't, not everybody could get there.
Guest:But you learn to, there are other tools that you do learn that do apply really well to a life in society.
Guest:In the arts, like you have to write if you're going to put your show up and you can't be precious because every week you got to come up with something.
Guest:So there's no there's no writer's block.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just crank it out.
Guest:It's gone the next week.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was a very valuable tool.
Guest:Self editing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're doing long form.
Guest:So you got to know what to jump off the back line at the scene.
Guest:character progression.
Guest:And when you're writing, you're just improvising as different characters in front of your typewriter with yourself.
Guest:So it was a tremendously good skill set.
Guest:I look at people like Tina Fey, who I unfortunately didn't overlap with.
Guest:She was there right after I was there.
Guest:But I watch it like 30 Rock and I'm like,
Guest:And they've got that sensibility that creates that smart, even when the comedy is dumb, it's smart.
Guest:And it's quick and it's inspired and it's a rhythm thing.
Marc:It's a sport.
Guest:It's not a written, it doesn't feel written.
Guest:It feels like they're playing.
Guest:And that's really, I really enjoy that.
Marc:So how did you get pulled out to do, like, you know, when you were offered Rudy, how did that happen?
Guest:It just happened, man.
Guest:I was like auditioning.
Marc:In Chicago.
Guest:It was in Chicago.
Guest:I was kind of like the local hire because they were shooting in South Bend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I happened to look like the dude.
Guest:I was in a good way.
Marc:You look a little burly.
Guest:I was a little burly.
Guest:I wasn't a football player, but I was a guy who was kind of burly and they needed the best friend and I was cheap and I was there and I was just on it and the director was there and I didn't, I was working on a TV show there.
Guest:I was doing like day rolls.
Guest:and for a local tv show for i think untouchables i was like a box i was like a ref in a boxing ring like the people they won't fly out because it's too expensive so they give you one line yeah and you're like building a whole resume around it uh-huh uh so i was like a pig in shit man so i by the time i got in i'm like i was working i just they told me i should come in i didn't have a lot of time with the lines yeah because i just got this and i was working um and so and david on spot was like it says on your resume here that you're an improviser
Guest:I said, yes.
Guest:He says, well, then were you lying?
Guest:Go ahead and let's see improv.
Guest:I could leave the script.
Guest:I was like, fine.
Guest:And I knew the beats.
Guest:And, you know, and the guy I was reading opposite was Angelo Pizzo, who was the writer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just, you know, I was just shoe shining him.
Guest:And, you know, it was funny and the room was alive and I was happy to be performing it.
Guest:And I didn't think I could ever get the part.
Guest:And then I got the part.
Guest:And again, on my birthday, I found out and they sent a limo.
Guest:Took me to South Bend the next day.
Guest:And there I was in South Bend with Sean Astin and Charles Dutton and read the script.
Guest:The script brought tears to my eyes.
Guest:It was so special and nice.
Guest:And then you think, of course, I'm starring in a Hollywood movie.
Guest:It's going to be a big hit and I'm going to be a big star.
Guest:And Swingers was kind of about the experience of having moved to L.A.
Guest:thinking that I had it made now.
Guest:I was around dozens of other people who had had one big break, and they had enough money, they didn't need a job, but they were all sitting around with, fuck all to do, and they're hanging out in the social scene.
Guest:Auditions and stuff?
Guest:Auditions, you're hanging out, and for me, it was like...
Guest:i had ended up breaking up with the girl i was living with in chicago it was heartbreaking yes it's okay so you do the movie and then how long like you know what were the steps from from that experience to you know going back to bartending and saying i gotta get the fuck out of here i didn't i didn't go back i was like it's time to go out and do the chicago uh la thing so you do pilot season but you go back and now you're getting some work right uh but then i i had to stay and and i i was um
Guest:But when I was in Rudy, every day I was on the set, even when I wasn't working.
Guest:I was sitting, watching, asking questions, watching the cameraman, asking questions to everybody.
Guest:Because I had done extra work.
Guest:You could never have access to that part of the set.
Guest:So to me, it was like...
Guest:They let me in the playground.
Guest:Was it an early curiosity?
Guest:I mean, the directing thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, film.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I would sneak on sets.
Guest:My dad would take me downtown to the Theater 80 on St.
Guest:Mark's.
Guest:It was before CDs or VCRs, so I would see Kurosawa films downtown.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:scorsese films and i would love was that something your dad was into as well yeah he would bring me down and they were they were they were split up so he would take me and we would go to the movies and um and and you know back then it seems like it was i saw far more r-rated movies than i probably should have but everybody was it was a different time well it was new york too it was new york parents were different around new york
Guest:maybe it was yeah and then you go to the theater and you hear this is a good thing so i was watching like the godfather and godfather 2 and it just blows your mind when oh yeah when you're a tween yeah yeah you know yeah and and so that especially because your dad was into it too that was good yeah he was into it like check this out you're gonna like this yeah and then he's like you want to see a gang movie i'm like yeah it's like okay
Guest:West Side Story.
Guest:So now I'm ready for it.
Guest:It's not like just a musical to me.
Guest:I'm like, this is the real shit.
Guest:Did you see theater too as a kid?
Guest:We did.
Guest:We would do like Standing Room Only.
Guest:We would see Dracula over and over again.
Guest:Grease over and over again.
Guest:Well, Frank Langella was in Dracula.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And whatever was there, we'd watch it, you know, a buck 50 or five bucks, you get to stand along the aisle in the back.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:You know, you're a kid.
Guest:I remember that now that I have kids.
Guest:I'm like, come on, let's go to the Cinematheque.
Guest:Is your old man still around?
Guest:Yeah, he is.
Guest:He's very proud.
Guest:He must be.
Guest:Yeah, he's happy.
Guest:Because he wanted to be a folk singer and had to kind of give it up when he was starting to get his break and pressed his first indie album.
Guest:What, in the late 60s?
Guest:Yeah, or mid-60s.
Guest:The mid-60s during the folk explosion?
Guest:Yeah, and he was in college, so he was sort of like the traveling.
Guest:Like when Phil Von Ronk was the guy, Dylan was a guy.
Guest:it was dylan but you know they were they were like sweaters and right and college kids right you know i think the road scholars right name or something and he had to give it up because he was getting married and having me so there's that kind of whole not he didn't get to do it and they all got married too young back then i know absolutely early 20s and um you know so it's like go girl go to me just to you know live it bring him with me and and
Marc:You know, so that's been that's been good.
Marc:Isn't that interesting, though, that that generation, because the generation we come from, I think you're a little younger than me, but but that, you know, you're going to you're going to generally pursue your dream no matter what.
Marc:There's a narcissism to it.
Marc:But there was a sense of a familial responsibility then, like it was just what you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But don't get me wrong.
Guest:There was a sense of I got to earn money and I have to make a practical decision here.
Guest:I didn't have a kid or a wife, but I really wanted to be a fireman.
Guest:I took the test.
Guest:I studied.
Guest:I took classes for it.
Guest:That seemed to me after working on Wall Street, I wanted to find something I was passionate about.
Guest:And everybody I spoke to was a fireman.
Guest:was like they loved their job and that was not something i encountered all the time right it wasn't somebody who like wanted the the kill or the big house or the right you know i didn't have that competitive that type of competitive streak to me but the idea of being a fireman and i'm kind of lazy and you can pursue other things and be of service as well and then when the goes down you're there and you're running in the door and up the stairs you know like i thought that was cool and you know being from queens and blue collar neighborhoods it you know that was sort of it would definitely
Marc:something it was that was a big thing to aspire for but i mean like just in terms of artistic i wasn't talking about you directly but your old man you know he had this thing he was probably into it he was having a good time but you know he realized like you know i mean what's important is is you know the family he watched woodstock on tv with me in his arms you know uh you know it's a story i hear
Guest:So it was a different... I could have been there.
Guest:Kind of, but probably better you weren't.
Guest:It worked out good.
Guest:And whatever led us all to where we are, I don't ever second guess.
Guest:I really think there's more to it.
Guest:And I try to accept the hard stuff with the good stuff.
Guest:Beyond fate, you have a God engaged?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:And I think some of that comes from...
Guest:I think we're very similar hearing you speak hours and hours.
Marc:You keep saying that.
Guest:But it's true.
Guest:But I feel like a poker player who's watched somebody else play a lot of hands, and I know how you play.
Guest:And I think we sort of share a very similar take on things and a similar pluses and minuses with the way we face the world.
Guest:And I think the difference is kids.
Guest:I think kids changes your perspective.
Guest:Because that's the one difference that I see.
Guest:Before you get kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What were... In terms of... Because obviously, you've done all right out here in Hollywood.
Marc:And there were struggles.
Marc:But obviously, you were a guy that showed up for work and figured out a way to...
Marc:to socialize and make alliances.
Marc:But what were the plagues that, what were the darker times for you?
Marc:So you're out here, and before you wrote Swingers, I mean, was there a period where you're like, the fuck did I do?
Marc:It's all dark, you know that.
Guest:You're enjoying great success here, too.
Guest:But that is the human condition.
Guest:We are all broken.
Guest:But what's your particular plague?
Guest:It's probably seeing things through the lens of early pain.
Guest:So you tend to not be the optimist that life dictates you should be.
Marc:But are you a jealous guy?
Marc:Are you down on yourself?
Marc:I don't.
Guest:It varies.
Guest:Not really jealous because I've always used that as a kick in the ass to say I should make my line longer.
Guest:Don't try to cut their line.
Guest:It inspires you because it's like, shit, I could be doing that.
Guest:And that's why we're wired with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I should write.
Guest:Why shouldn't I write a screenplay?
Guest:I read this.
Guest:I don't like what I'm reading.
Guest:This is a big thing.
Guest:Why don't I go for it?
Guest:And I've always been the type that, of all the things I'm self-conscious about, risk aversion is not one of the things I suffer from when it comes to career stuff.
Guest:I will swing from my heels and I will strike out in an exciting way.
Guest:Put yourself out there.
Guest:And then wonder why I'm, you know, why I'm bleeding.
Guest:But, you know, I can work the high steel, you know, thankfully.
Guest:And I think that comes from a very nurturing young life with two very loving parents that taught me that the blocks that I built are, you know, let's get the camera.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:This is a genius.
Guest:This is a genius.
Guest:You know, parents...
Guest:that goes a long way man it really does and then and then you throw on top of that you know the big rug pulls of of my you know teen years uh and tween years and that's you know you get that weird combo and that's me and so yes there's there is a looming sense of something very bad is going to happen a looming sense of this is all going away a looming sense of i didn't do enough
Guest:And then you have to work on that.
Guest:And that's why you become less prolific and because you're not chasing it as much because you're working on the real stuff and you're getting happier and you're starting to understand how you fit into the world and you start to prepare yourself for when you're not going to be in the world anymore.
Guest:Because you're standing at that wonderful apex where you could see your birth and you could see just an equal distance to the other side that gives you a very valuable perspective on what your priorities should be, especially when you have children.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, when you were doing, how did you meet Vince?
Guest:I met him on the set of Rudy.
Guest:He had gotten cast off of a tape.
Guest:They were trying to find people.
Guest:He was not living in Chicago at the time, though he was from there.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And he was a guy who was cutting his teeth in just the casting circuits.
Guest:He was a good-looking guy.
Marc:Out here.
Guest:He had star quality, but he was always either the bad kid or second place to the star.
Guest:And never quite...
Guest:But he was funny as shit and we would have nothing but time on our hands because when you're the new kids and you cost $2,500 a week or whatever it was, they keep you marinating in your hotel room in South Bend for eight weeks and you got nothing to do while they fly in the stars and board around them.
Guest:So here we are with just having a good old time with per diem, like we fucking hit the lottery.
Guest:I'll have a bottle of wine with that.
Guest:If you don't order it, you're just going to pay it in taxes.
Guest:You're going to write it off.
Guest:And so I remember I opened up a bank account with my checks in South Bend.
Guest:Who would ever think to do that?
Guest:On location, I opened up a bank account and paid all my credit card debts.
Guest:So it was a wonderful time.
Guest:And
Guest:And then when I decided to go out to Hollywood, he was my one dude I knew.
Guest:And when I went out there, he was showing me around and every woman looked like a 10 to me.
Guest:And it was just... And I had just been broken up with because I had been... I had...
Guest:selfishly and ignorantly not paid any attention to my relationship.
Guest:I never went home.
Guest:I just stayed on the set.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:26 maybe.
Guest:It's forgivable.
Guest:It's forgivable.
Guest:I wasn't coming from a bad place, but it was, you know, you don't, you get caught up in these, this whole new world's open to you.
Guest:And so I didn't,
Guest:You know, I didn't, you know, it didn't work out.
Guest:And, you know, at that age, who knows, relationships, it's so hard.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah.
Guest:But at the time.
Guest:You're learning.
Guest:At the time.
Marc:You know, yeah.
Guest:This was, you know, this was.
Marc:Well, that turned out to be sort of the back story of Swingers, right?
Guest:That's exactly what it was.
Guest:You know, I was just going through that pain.
Guest:And, you know, especially when you take that, you know, you're saying, what's your darkness?
Guest:Well, you know, you take somebody who suffered loss young and then you lay that against, you know, the relationships with these poor women take on such an impact.
Guest:so much more significance uh because you're kind of looking for that you're kind of it's on some level but you don't know you are you just think that's the way the world is and so the heavy heart a lot of heavy heart yeah and but a lot of hope i think too you know in all of them yeah and and you know i didn't know i was writing about my life i was just going to write a screenplay my dad really didn't i didn't my dad got me final draft i started writing and
Guest:and you know after like four pages it's like shit this looks like a real script you know let me keep going that's a great thing about final draft it is it looks like it's like paginated and uh like the margins are right it's great and uh i was like well i guess the guy lives in this neighborhood i guess he drives i guess he's going to that bar right i guess his friend talks like this and next thing you know it was like me uh but i didn't think it was me when i wrote it it was complete fiction just like you know whatever uh stardust memories has nothing to do with me right you know sure arbitrarily selecting things so
Guest:And so people wanted to buy the script, and I figured it was at least worth me doing a stage reading before they asked me to change all these notes that they were going to have me change and also cast it with people that I wanted to at least give my friends a shot at playing parts that I based on.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the stage reading went so well to my agent at the time, Cynthia Shelton, to her credit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had gotten a good agent off of Rudy.
Guest:So I was at UTA at the time and she was like, don't sell it, make it.
Guest:And so that was like another year of trying to get money together and trying to direct the thing and just couldn't get the money.
Marc:But you're always working as an actor.
Guest:a little bit enough that i and i always kept my expenses low yeah uh so i was like in pcu but or it got cut out of mrs parker in the vicious circle i did um you know uh enough yeah not commercials but i was doing enough stuff and you know pilots that didn't go right as an actor and but you know it's a lot of money when you don't you know when you're not used to having anything
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, you get a week's work and you get, you know, whatever it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Four figures, five figures.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's crazy money.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:When you're used to bartending and washing dishes.
Guest:Hell yeah.
Guest:And I lived up in, right across from the, you know, up on Franklin, right by.
Marc:Everybody was there when they move in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I lived on Chiromoya when I first moved to you.
Guest:so it was a great spot you know it was just it was it was a little edgier than it is now it was before the ucb was there it was you could still walk there was a block you could walk to so you kind of felt like i can walk to whatever i need there's gelson's and being a new yorker was always i was always attracted to neighborhoods where you could walk and that goes away after a couple years i still do i still have it i still like to not have to get in a car on a day i'm not working yeah uh there's something nice about that
Guest:So Doug came along.
Guest:Doug Liman was like, because I was asking him questions.
Guest:He was a friend of mine who was a director.
Guest:I was like, tell me about lenses because I may have to direct this thing.
Guest:Tell me about the way a crew is structured.
Guest:I just got to ask him all the things I didn't understand.
Guest:And then he was really taken with the script and he was able to raise the money a very small amount, but he was able to shoot it that way.
Guest:And he said, look, if you let me do it, I'll...
Guest:you know we'll do this but it's not for the money you think you need i'll do it we'll shoot like a student film yeah let's uh you know and like clerks had happened and uh you know and and what rodriguez was doing so there's like a whole new wave of filmmakers who were making do with not a lot of right and we just did it real scrappy i said but you got to use my friends
Guest:It was like, all right, you know, uh, and, and then it, you know, one of those moments where just the bread falls jelly side up enough times with all the shit that went wrong, enough went right.
Guest:We didn't get into Sundance.
Guest:It felt like a big failure.
Guest:And then we did a crew screening, invited people.
Guest:And just after Sundance happened, we figured we'd do our screening.
Guest:And, um, and that's when, uh, people, it played like gangbusters, um,
Guest:uh, over at the theater on, uh, down by kosher Canyon over there, the theater on, uh, silent movie theater, uh, right, right up the block from the silent movie theater on Mel.
Guest:I was at Melrose and Fairfax.
Guest:Uh, and there was whatever the, we, we, the five screens are across from the last part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and, and, um, and, and, and it, there was more than one buyer, uh,
Guest:Because there were some buyers in the audience.
Guest:So you got a little bidding thing going?
Guest:A little bidding thing going.
Guest:Next thing you know, Miramax paid like five million for something.
Guest:You didn't have to go to Sundance.
Guest:Isn't that fucking amazing?
Guest:I would have loved to.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I had been to Sundance the year before with the script under my arm.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Trying to sell it.
Guest:But it must have been sort of a good feeling, a good little fuck you kind of.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I was happy, but as you, I don't know if you've had this experience, but when something really, really good happens, where you jump a couple notches, it's the most overwhelming experience and shocking and paralyzing experience you could have.
Guest:It's almost like something bad happening.
Yeah.
Guest:and i remember i saw vince we were driving i was driving on sunset one way he was driving the other way and he was i was turning into like the guy that everybody wanted to either write or direct something yeah and he was the movie star because now they finally saw what he could do and he finally played that persona that really was him right which he hadn't really brought to the screen yet and people saw the value in that and so he was on fire i was getting more you know uh more interest than i had ever had we're going opposite ways on sunset and we poked i said how you doing he goes miserable i'm like me too oh
Guest:like in the middle of all the blinding attention well that's it's sort of like it makes you it makes you it it's you want the rocket to keep together i mean you don't want it to break apart and launch i guess i imagine that's amazing amount of excitement but the pressure of it like you know now you got to show up now the lights are new i don't even know what it's just we're not you know we're not designed to shift too far one way or the other it's the gradual uh-huh
Guest:you know it's like those deep water fish you bring them to the surface and they just like mine's been very slow and I've had bumps of it but for the most part I feel like it slowly grows compared to what I would have hoped it would have been from time to time with movies that have bombed or parts I didn't get what bombed?
Guest:oh Cowboys and Aliens was it didn't bomb but it was I definitely was it was definitely a pillow party
Guest:I just saw it recently, and I loved it.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:Zathura bombed.
Guest:Huh?
Guest:Zathura bombed, a movie called Zathura that I did years ago after Elf.
Guest:So, like, I've had great success, but there's also been very humbling failure.
Marc:What was the thing with Cowboys and Aliens?
Marc:I think it must have been...
Marc:a hard thing to market.
Marc:I mean, because it's a legitimate Western with an interesting twist.
Guest:With a funny name, you know, and it just didn't... It was shot beautifully.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:And I honestly really feel like it's, you know, of course you always feel this way about your latest work, but I feel like it's the most evolved work I've done.
Guest:And it was, plus, I mean, the experience of working with Spielberg and Ron Howard and Brian Grazier and
Guest:and kurtzman and orsi and david lindelof and and then harrison ford and daniel craig it was one of those things where you know so when you achieve a certain amount of success you're the expert yeah and now every time you sit in a room you're the expert and you're going to decide and give these platitudes of what makes if it bends it's funny yeah you know you're that guy yeah and but you don't have it's hard to have a master and and to have somebody to learn from
Guest:And so to be able to sit with Spielberg in an editing room or Ron Howard or be able to call him up and ask him for advice on how to handle something.
Guest:Because these are two dudes who they have families, they have lives, they have longevity.
Guest:And they have such varied of resume of work of genres that they've done.
Guest:they're also wizards they're wizards they are they're high priests and and it's and to be able to be with them and to be able to uh sit and just just to hear the stories yeah just to hear spielberg talking about what it was like being at the tapings of the first season of saturday night live i mean it all like it's such a mind-blowing uh uh or not not to mention film i mean to have him screen
Marc:um uh the searchers for us his print of the searchers and to sit behind us and give give his commentary on why john ford did what he did well it seems like you pay a fairly uh you know beautiful tip of the hat to that to the scope of those westerns and that because i noticed that when i was watching it's like you know this dude watched some fucking movies
Guest:And it was like, but I was trying to impress them.
Guest:I was like, see, I listened, you know, but it was something about, you know, but then I sort of learned the lesson of you could make the best bacon sundae, you know, in the world.
Guest:And if people don't want to eat that flavor of ice cream or they don't want,
Guest:that and especially i think the name was misleading and then you forget that it's like so many names were associated with it that it was seen as the big dog whereas we felt we were underdogs in how obscure the material was so the expectation was high i think it was a combination of all those things there's a whole zeitgeist element that i benefited from and i've suffered from and you have to disassociate from it well i also think that just by you know my experience was with it was is this a comedy and then when i watch it i'm like no it's a western
Marc:It's just got this thing.
Marc:The thing.
Guest:But I think the name that was so interesting and made everybody think it was going to be a comedy and maybe it would have been better served with a different vision.
Guest:But when you have Spielberg and Ron Howard developing a script and saying, we think go for it hard.
Guest:I'm like, I'll go hard, man.
Guest:I'll do it.
Guest:And I love it.
Guest:I embrace it.
Guest:And you think you could... It's always the trick of how can you get...
Guest:The big summer movie with the big budget where you could play with all the toys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yet do something interesting with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, with Iron Man, I had been spoiled because it worked out.
Guest:You know, I did really unusual casting.
Guest:You know, yes and no.
Guest:I mean, part of me is always like, it's going to bomb.
Guest:And part of me is like, this is going to be the best movie in the world.
Marc:Well, but I mean, when you got that opportunity, I mean, obviously you'd done Made and you'd done a lot of acting and you did some other stuff, but I mean- Elf was the big one that got me a seat at the directing table.
Guest:Elf was.
Marc:That gave me a director.
Marc:Isn't that interesting?
Guest:Yeah, because it was a hit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I really love it.
Guest:I think it was successful in what we set out to do and it was a big part of Will's career.
Guest:And it was a good mix of all the people, a lot of the Chicago people, Amy Sedaris, and it's a great cast, even the supporting roles.
Guest:And it was just one of those moments where it had, you know, and it was the right time after 9-11 where it's like, here's New York, how I remember seeing it as a kid.
Guest:And the Empire State Building isn't a target for terrorism.
Guest:It's the setting for a children's movie.
Guest:You know, you forget.
Guest:But back then, even shooting in those landmark areas, it was very sensitive to be able to have access to those locations.
Guest:Because New York was still kind of reeling from that.
Guest:And I certainly was, even though I was out here.
Guest:watching it on TV and I used to work right there and lost people.
Marc:You knew people?
Guest:I had a cousin, yeah.
Guest:And it was awful out here, but I felt like that was the... Your heart was there.
Guest:It's so silly, but it was as simple as I was always taught you knew which way was south, which was downtown, but you look up where the towers were because you'd see them from anywhere.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you look up now, and I still do it.
Guest:And I still look up, because that's what I learned since I was little.
Guest:And they're not there.
Guest:And it's such a great metaphor for this, you lose your compass.
Guest:And look, it's remarkable, and I'm so grateful that
Guest:not really anything's happened since because because at the time remember you thought this was coming every every year another treat you know yeah uh and it was it was just it just threw everything it just changed it was like that like in boogie nights when the 80s happened on like the murder it's like that happened and all of a sudden boom welcome to it didn't happen at y2k we were all like racing for it but in 2001 the world changed and it and it has and it's a different
Guest:yeah everything and uh and so so elf was like let's you know it was like bringing innocence back to the city and and and uh and i really adored will and he's just such a great spirit so funny and and and uh the people i got to collaborate with on that but it but it gave me a seat at the table because nobody expected much and it broke through and and the real the real success of it for me the thing i'm most proud of is that we're in the rotation now on the
Guest:on the christmas television that was what we always hoped would happen and that's one of one of the biggest uh one of the biggest gift for the kids one of the things i'm most proud of that i'm part of our culture yeah uh through that yeah that rudy pops up every year i'm very proud of that one and swinger is still even like i have six years classic yeah but you think it's going to go away it's a little indie but you know 16 year olds will come up to me i saw the movie and you know it got me through a breakup i'm like oh
Marc:god bless you and like it speaks to something like you know i remember the one that uh the swing dancing was happening even though that trend is is no longer around you probably hated that well i don't you know i don't go out for that kind of stuff i know but it looked like you were having fun we were it's so it's so patronizing but i appreciate it yes i was having fun no no no you look like you were having a good time no it was it looks fun i just don't have it was fun you're not a joiner you're a that's right yeah you're all right yeah
Guest:Is that right?
Guest:No, I'm sure it is.
Guest:It is, but I was having fun, and I like that culture, that kind of music.
Marc:And, of course, it's a trend, and it went away, and I still like that kind of music.
Marc:But despite that, my point was that the heart of the movie is about a guy who is going through a breakup, and he has this one kind of friend, and I think that relationship and your feelings are sort of timeless.
Marc:So it's not hanging on a trend.
Guest:But it seemed at the time it was.
Guest:It seemed that that was the...
Guest:Hollywood at that moment.
Guest:It's a very ephemeral, this is now a snapshot.
Guest:But really, it's always the story.
Guest:It's always those Joseph Campbell story elements that make any story timeless.
Guest:And there are some that you could keep going back to.
Guest:And we're just doing the same.
Guest:The closer you adhere to the classic myths, the more likely you are to...
Guest:what are those in your mind the the hero the rise of the hero you know hero of the thousand faces that's the reason star wars yes evergreen right um and and the ones that get it closest to it last the longest because there is some collective subconscious that youngian thing where we all share this common cultural dream and
Guest:We want to hear that story told, and it's a life-affirming story, and it's a story about hope and reward and faith and giving up the ego of the individual for the collective good.
Guest:And I think that that's something that is either part of God or part of our deep, deep, deep DNA teleological desires.
Guest:Yeah, I believe that.
Guest:And whether it's one or the other is irrelevant to me.
Guest:So Iron Man was good then for that.
Guest:Iron Man was very much that.
Guest:And that was more the story of Joseph a little bit, like the guy who redeems himself, who's an unsavory character, who is wound into his own ego.
Guest:But the thing with the stroke of brilliance was Downey.
Guest:It was not just that it was him, but it was him at that moment having paid his dues and having a spiritual redemption.
Marc:Not only his acting dues, but his dues to society.
Guest:Literally, with his time and to sit across.
Guest:But he was somebody who'd been through this 12-step sobriety, embraced it, and came out the other end of the tunnel glowing.
Guest:And that's when I met him.
Guest:So there was a radiance to him.
Guest:And nobody ever questioned his talent.
Guest:And it was like this.
Guest:I knew if I could get him that every decision from the movie would be obvious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was a path.
Guest:He was the guy.
Guest:If I had him, I understood how I'm going to make every choice from there.
Guest:And that was my biggest contribution was the knife fight to get him to star.
Guest:And once he starred, most of the work was done.
Guest:he he must be forever grateful he's you know i adore him uh you know but you turned around the the you turned it all it did and that's in that and i gave him a you know sometimes that's the highest form you know of of you know giving letting somebody do it for themselves is the most gratifying form of of connection it's not it there's nothing charitable about it it is purely pointing the spotlight
Guest:at the person that is ready and watching them do it and i've and i've helped uh and been helped by so many talented people that it that's part of the fun you know to to see vince launch or to see uh will farrell break into a new level of his career downy yeah
Guest:it's it's sometimes i'm off by a movie or two but i i have a really good eye and i really appreciate talented people yeah who could do what i could do better than i can do or who i could help see what they do well and help them and generate material or support that and to even if they can't see it in themselves that's that that's that spirit of the uh the improv thing yeah it is very much that and your kids now how you have two kids i have three
Guest:11, 9, and 6.
Marc:And that has changed you in the sense that you realize that life is fragile and beautiful and you just want to keep working.
Guest:And you get a little bit more open-minded to the idea of God in the more traditional sense.
Guest:The wisdom of the ages, you start to see what that is and that it's really...
Guest:Um, if we can do anything to lighten the burden of the next generation by not having to make the mistakes that we have, which, you know, that's what myth, that's what the mythic stories are about, you know, uh, giving them a good sense of faith in the world, you know, and as sad as, as, as, as moments of my films are, there's hopefully a hopefulness to all of them.
Guest:Ultimately.
Guest:I never thought they got too dark.
Yeah.
Guest:They're sad.
Guest:They're sad.
Guest:Yeah, but they're all sad.
Marc:But they're sad in the way that, in my mind, your character is not a broken character as much as it is a sensitive and heavy-hearted character.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:You might know better than me.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I only notice the pattern as though I'm looking at somebody else's work.
Guest:I don't intend any of it.
Guest:But I do see that whether it's Elf or Cowboys and Aliens or Iron Man or Swingers, there is a...
Guest:sense that the world has... There is a sorrowfulness to... The world as it's presented to us, but there is a way to prevail over that through a tenacity and a positive worldview and pushing through the fear into faith, which I think is really the ultimate...
Guest:It's certainly the struggle I'm engaged in.
Guest:It seems to be the human condition is fear versus faith.
Guest:Is it going to work out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, is it going to be okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's going to have to be.
Guest:Do you jump in a leap of faith?
Guest:And I see, you know, and I see that as part of the way, you know, you change the world ever so slightly with what you do and what you present.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you could impart that a little bit.
Guest:And I think, I feel my career has that thing.
Guest:You know, I feel like I've...
Guest:When I've taken chances, I've gotten knocked down, but you do get what you need ultimately, and you'll get your shot, and you just got to try and pick yourself up.
Guest:And it's funny that you sit and see me as somebody where everything's been green lights, but...
Guest:No, I don't see that.
Guest:But the ratio has been, you know, there's definitely been much more disappointment.
Guest:It's just you get a few good ones in there.
Marc:Well, no, I actually see you as a guy who, you know, who did the work and focused and stuck it out.
Marc:You know, I don't think it doesn't read to me like you had some sort of like it was an easy ride.
Marc:I think that, you know, you knew what you wanted to do and you did the work and you took some hits and you just keep going.
Marc:And you pivot.
Marc:You did a good job.
Marc:You did a good job.
Marc:I mean, those Iron Man movies are good movies.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I mean, Cowboys and Aliens, the Swingers.
Marc:I mean, and even all of them.
Marc:I mean, Made had a lot of heart to it.
Marc:I mean, you know, you didn't sell out your talent.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Guest:And I know that you are the, you know, that's a big, you know, that's a big.
Guest:And you're a good guy.
Guest:Thank you.
Yeah.
Guest:But, but there's a, you put a premium on that and I, and I do too.
Guest:It's like, how do you, how do you grow your career without giving up control of what you consider something that you're happy to associate with?
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:Why do you want to live with that?
Guest:yeah it's it's a it's a tricky it's a tricky little deal um and you don't and there's so many elements you can't control yeah uh but it but part of it too is pivoting you know and i know a lot of people listen to this because they they are you know waiting for their moment and and you know one message is the moment comes people that i know who have not succeeded it has not been because they haven't gotten the chance it's because they've
Guest:were not as prepared as they could have been for that moment.
Guest:And if the moment comes too early, it's often a detriment.
Guest:But the other thing is I pivoted a tremendous amount.
Guest:I wrote Swingers, ultimately tried to get it made because I thought it would be a launching point for my acting career.
Guest:I had a career path.
Guest:If I was going to work at Second City,
Guest:I was going to get hired by SNL.
Guest:I was going to work my way through, maybe get a sitcom, then work my way into movies and maybe get to be a Woody Allen and have enough clout that I would get to make my own movies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:None of that happened the way I thought it was going to happen.
Guest:I thought I was going to be an actor after Swingers.
Guest:I was a script doctor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I became, you know...
Guest:a director through stories that I wrote.
Guest:And nowadays you could do like you're doing in here or people do with their filmmaking.
Guest:You can get together with a group of friends.
Guest:You don't need to get 200 grand together like we did for Swingers.
Guest:You could do it with a laptop and an iPhone and put it out there and you can start to, the doors, the walls have come down.
Guest:You're not gonna get paid as much as quickly as somebody who comes up through the Hollywood system.
Guest:But you can break through and you can get better and you can make product and you can learn and sharpen your tools.
Guest:And then when the big chance comes, you'll be ready for that and you'll have a whole body of work.
Marc:That's a very encouraging sentiment.
Marc:And my last thought is, you know, when he brought up Spielberg and that, you know, to listen to him tell stories, the first story that came to your head was him seeing the original cast of Saturday Night Live.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:The first story that come to your head.
Marc:Well, that was, yeah.
Marc:Not directing E.T.
Marc:No.
Marc:Well, that was a mind blower.
Marc:Because he was working with Belushi, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In 1942.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I mean, is there a part of you that regrets not having that opportunity?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I am in awe.
Guest:And I'm working with Lorne on something now.
Yeah.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:There's a book called What in God's Name that's written by an author named Simon Rich, who is one of the guys who's a writer on the show.
Guest:And Lauren's a producer, and it was a really nice book that felt like an old Woody Allen play, the old Woody Allen comedies.
Guest:And Lauren... So sitting with Lauren, there's definitely a feeling of... There's definitely a feeling of...
Guest:That all flashes through your head and all the stories of people like you or other people meeting him and sitting, which really seems like all those stories feel like a mirror onto that person's experience more than Lorne even knowing or remembering any of it.
Guest:But it is a moment when you feel like I am sitting...
Guest:It is such a surreal moment and such an important moment that everything is like lining up.
Guest:And now I'm getting a reflection of my deepest self.
Guest:And I know a lot of people who got called to meet with Lauren.
Guest:And I've had that experience with other people.
Guest:I met with Paul Simon.
Guest:I was trying to get him to do.
Guest:He ended up giving us the rights to the song Loves Me Like a Rock.
Guest:And I met with him in the Brill Building.
Guest:And I remember talking to him and just in my run up to why it was so important.
Guest:how important he was in my life and my dad would play his music and my parents would sing his songs in the car and he's from Queens.
Guest:And like my deepest memories of childhood and I'm talking to the guy just in sort of the run up to the ask.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I broke down.
Guest:Like, I started weeping.
Guest:And I had to catch myself.
Guest:And I was so embarrassed.
Guest:And I was like, this is... And he was like, no, no, no.
Guest:He was like, what's going on?
Guest:I'm like, what?
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:No, what's going on, man?
Guest:Like, that was what he was interested in.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I said, look, I just... This year, like, such an important...
Guest:person throughout my whole childhood.
Guest:And I'm not like the biggest Paul Simon fan, but there was like this line of thinking that just crossed into like a deep part of my brain of like locked up memories.
Guest:And the intensity that comes from the adrenaline and this whole surreal life that we live in these moments and we have flashes of it when you're in the line of work we are.
Yeah.
Guest:And what was so interesting was how important that was to him.
Guest:Like that was the important part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've had that experience with a lot of people with like Fonzie.
Guest:Winkler.
Guest:Henry Winkler.
Guest:I met him once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He really wears it.
Guest:He understands that he is a important person to so many people who grew up with him.
Guest:And Spielberg has that.
Guest:And Ron Howard has that graciousness that nobody teaches anyone.
Guest:And so many people don't have.
Guest:And it's something to emulate and aspire to because you start to realize...
Guest:and james taylor meeting james taylor same thing that they understand that although their relationship to you is not a personal one that they have had a personal effect and they understand that there's a responsibility that goes with that and they could affect your life if they play that moment right yeah and there's a it's it's an incredibly uh it's fascinating to me and did lauren do it uh
Guest:lauren no lauren where you know lauren definitely wears my relationship you know my memory of i didn't because when i was young i didn't know lauren i knew the show and i've later learned who he is and i never was asked to audition but i remember when farley did and how it was like ringing through his head before and after yeah um and hearing the stories of people who beach themselves uh in that meeting of the dinner or the audition and he's sitting at the feet of everybody who
Guest:Or watching Mike Myers on the TV doing Wayne's World for the first time in the bar that he performed at and I would give him free sandwiches.
Guest:So there was definitely a round lawn that was a thing.
Guest:But he is a guy who definitely knows how to tell a story.
Guest:He will tell you what works and what doesn't work about comedy.
Guest:And I want it.
Guest:I want to hear it.
Guest:I'm in.
Guest:I am signed up for that lesson.
Guest:I will remember everything he says to me.
Guest:And I'm working with Scorsese now.
Guest:And that, to me, he's a high priest.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:I'm on the set of Wolf of Wall Street.
Guest:And that was just like you talk about the Lorne stories.
Guest:Anybody who worked with Mark Scorsese, when I was on Dinner for Five, I would absolutely...
Guest:ask them every minute of what was it like what did he do i would base a lot of my directing style on stories i had heard like kevin pollack would told the story about when he was on casino yeah and he by the way i have to do uh he was on dinner for five i'm gonna probably have to do his show he'd ask me i'm gonna uh check him out because he's he's also doing great in this world and i've listened to his show he's doing a nice job
Guest:Uh, but he had told me the story about when Marty was directing him and, and how, uh, open Marty was and like, okay, you want to do the scene a different way?
Guest:And they'd say, uh, I don't know, angry.
Guest:Okay, let's do that.
Guest:Like he was so open to whatever they had to say without an agenda, which most directors have.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do it.
Guest:Like I want to trick you into thinking you're doing it like in the storyboards.
Guest:Right.
Guest:On your own volition.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so I, you know, I was so enamored with just hearing Kevin tell the story about Marty.
Guest:And now I'm actually finally working with him.
Marc:In what capacity as an actor?
Guest:An actor on his thing, you know, on Wolf of Wall Street.
Guest:And I'm getting ready.
Guest:I'm flying out to do it, to finish up.
Guest:But I had, I had had my first day of shooting.
Guest:I was next to Rob Reiner, who's another guy that I'm, you know, like he's a character actor who broke through and made a studio where he did Stand By Me and did all these great films.
Yeah.
Guest:And so I get to watch.
Guest:And it's so hard to act because, first of all, I only wanted to please him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's the worst.
Guest:Because when you're an actor, you have to kind of, you know, give me the ball.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm going to... It's the slam dunk contest.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Especially if you're a supporting guy.
Guest:You got to just...
Guest:You know, you got to do something.
Guest:You know, you got to give him something special.
Guest:Bring something to it.
Guest:That's what I want when I'm directing.
Guest:You know, bring it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, it's very hard to bring it when you're checking in like he sees her the dog whisperer.
Guest:Like you want to know I'm sitting.
Guest:I'm in a submissive posture.
Guest:I am user friendly.
Guest:And it also made me realize any little thing that he said.
Guest:And although I know I thought about it more than he did for that particular moment or monologue.
Guest:How important direction is because I hung on every word.
Guest:I wanted to know anything.
Guest:I wanted him to suggest anything and I was going to run with anything he said.
Guest:So it was wonderful to be around the guy because, again, my dad would take me downtown to see him when I was, you know.
Guest:A teenager.
Guest:And I grew up, I was weaned on his films and Woody Allen's films.
Guest:And so it's this wonderful, surreal dream.
Guest:And it sometimes feels like those dreams you used to have when you're like...
Guest:Like I dream that I was in the animated Michael Jackson 5 cartoon when I was little.
Guest:I woke up and I thought like Michael Jackson was my friend, the cartoon Michael Jackson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do you ever feel that way, by the way?
Guest:I wonder.
Guest:I feel like someday somebody's going to wake you up that you're in a coma and this is like Jacob's Ladder where you're making peace with all the people of your life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With me, I'm just happy to be doing the best stand-up I've been doing.
Marc:And some of the opportunities that I thought would never happen for me are happening.
Marc:And I hope I'm showing up for those things.
Guest:But this show, it feels like you're having conversations with people that most people only sort of have in their head.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Working through, it's almost like the episode you did with Louie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where you actually get to speak about the things that you kind of remember and you realize how differently each person remembers things.
Marc:I'm really, I mean, I have in real conversations, you know, like I bring a certain amount of needs to it, but you know, they, they all like, I need to connect, you know?
Guest:It really makes it interesting.
Guest:And the more specific it gets, the more universal, ironically, it turns out to be.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Marc:But I think the great thing that you're saying about yourself, and I think it's also a good lesson for everybody, is that you remain so open to learn and so respectful of the people that made an impression on you that it seems that you take something that you can integrate into your understanding of things from every experience.
Guest:yes and that's an amazing thing yes and i appreciate you coming oh thank you for it's so it's so surreal to be here uh as part of the i'll be on the app soon i'm very excited i will i will be i hope i i will be starring myself yeah it's good on your app yeah you will your name will be up in my app light it's good now here's the big fear what what kind of are you going to talk before and after that's the big thing i always wonder
Guest:what do i talk shit you not talk shit but you're like you know i had a good time he seems like a good guy i don't know it seems like he's hiding something see what you think he's a good guy pow i just shit my pants you know what i mean we're just gonna have to see i'm gonna see i'm gonna hope that's when you really know what you think it's to my face you're gonna say nice things but you know he's kind of talked a lot he talked a lot all right all right i i will i will make i'll make note of how aware you are of
Marc:I'm kidding.
Guest:Keep doing what you're doing.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:You're on to something.
Guest:I don't know what exactly.
Guest:Yeah, me neither.
Guest:But you're hitting the chord, and I like that people are connecting with it because I think it's valuable stuff.
Guest:It takes you to talk a few minutes longer than they do in most arenas, but that's when you get to the good stuff, and that's when you get to the stuff that you could actually...
Guest:uh learn something from and and where you could actually apply the experience other than just the ogling at the spectacle yeah you get to the humanity of the people and and you realize that the this the situation with all these people as different as they seem there's such a universal uh humanity to the people and the way that you speak to them so you know hats off to you keep keep it up i'm so glad this is happening here oh thanks man that's that's it means a lot and i mean it thanks john
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:I enjoyed that conversation with John.
Marc:If you're still listening, John, I thought it went very well.
Marc:Okay, and I enjoyed it.
Marc:That's from my middle chakra.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:I'm going to be in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, the 4th through the 6th at the Improv at the Hard Rock there in Fort Lauderdale.
Marc:And then the following weekend, whatever that is.
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:The 10th, 11th, and 12th.
Marc:I will be at Good Nights in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Marc:Looking forward to eating some food down there.
Marc:And I mentioned my buddy Jeremy at the beginning.
Marc:If you're an L.A.
Marc:guy or gal who has a Mac panic, Jeremy is the Mac man.
Marc:And you can get him at MacManNow.com.
Marc:He's the wizard.
Marc:He's very good.
Marc:He deals with good people.
Marc:And he is a good person.
Marc:And he's on top of it.
Marc:He knows his shit.
Marc:He has saved my ass many a time.
Marc:So there's that.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Did I mention that I'll be at the Wilbur Theater in Boston, Massachusetts, doing a live WTF and a live stand-up show on the same night, Friday, February 8th.
Marc:Tickets are available for that.
Marc:Gonna have a lot of dates coming up.
Marc:Doing a big tour.
Marc:Help me name my tour.
Marc:Send me some suggestions.
Marc:The We Good Tour.
Marc:Maybe that's it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But Christmas.
Marc:Do it now.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:They might be a little late, but we might be able to get them out.
Marc:I doubt it.
Marc:But I got a lot of new merch.
Marc:Got the Boomer Lives t-shirts.
Marc:Got the mugs and the tote bags and the this and the that.
Marc:Get the app.
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Marc:Boomy Lives!