Episode 341 - Mike Lawrence
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking avians?
Marc:What the fucking adians?
Marc:What the fuckaholics?
Marc:What the fuckstables?
Marc:What the fuckups?
Marc:And what the fuckadelics?
Marc:What the fuckadelics is right.
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:A great show today, actually.
Marc:I very much enjoy my guest, Mike Lawrence, who's a real deal.
Marc:You know, you meet people.
Marc:He featured for me out in New Jersey at the Stress Factory.
Marc:He's a full-on true grit nerd.
Marc:I don't know if that makes sense, but he's just a real deal.
Marc:He's a very earnest, very honest guy, and he's a real fucking comic.
Marc:And I just love the guy.
Marc:And he was on a live one not long ago, but I needed to sit down and do the hour thing because I get a real kick out of him, man.
Marc:Up front, you know?
Marc:You don't meet a lot of people like that.
Marc:And he's insanely funny.
Marc:Great joke writer.
Marc:So look forward to that shortly.
Marc:Pow, look out.
Marc:Just shit my pants.
Marc:All right, should I finish that?
Marc:I really just wanted coffee, and it's almost... I have to stop myself from doing that in public, the justcoffee.coop thing.
Marc:All right, enough with this.
Marc:Enough with the advertising till later.
Marc:These are the ways we make money here.
Marc:Do you think I'm self-indulgent?
Marc:Can we talk about that for half an hour?
Marc:Do you think...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I went to see a guy about a thing in my brain, not a physical growth, but I talked to a little therapist guy about some stuff.
Marc:I don't want to go into it too specifically, but he brought up this Enneagram business.
Marc:Does anyone know?
Marc:About the Enneagram, could you please tell me?
Marc:Because I am on the precipice of becoming mystical again, which I don't need.
Marc:I did just buy Van Morrison's Astral Weeks on 180-gram vinyl, and that'll send you.
Marc:I did, two days ago, sit in the middle of the day and listen to the Pink Floyd Animals in its entirety.
Marc:And if that's not a cry for help, I don't know.
Marc:That's without...
Marc:Any self-medicating.
Marc:Just me and that record on a couch.
Marc:Me and Pink Floyd Animals on a couch midday and it's rainy outside.
Marc:How is that not a recipe for celebratory suicidal ruminations?
Marc:I didn't have that.
Marc:I just love that record, Pigs on a Wing.
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:I am having the best midlife crisis that I possibly can.
Marc:It's relatively inexpensive.
Marc:It doesn't require anything dangerous.
Marc:As I've told you before, it's just tubes and vinyl.
Marc:This is my midlife crisis.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:And anybody that comes into my house, and I imagine this is the same,
Marc:With people that get into the fast car business or whatever, the new house, the new boat, the new women.
Marc:I'm just going for my tubes and my vinyl.
Marc:But if you walk through that door, you will be sat down and you will be asked what you would like to hear on vinyl.
Marc:I've done this with three people who have come into my house lately.
Marc:Seth Green and Gary Goldman and my friend Ryan Singer sat them down in the chair in between those two speakers and said, what do you want to listen?
Marc:Two of them chose Dylan.
Marc:And I made them listen.
Marc:And I made them appreciate it.
Marc:I don't know if they're just indulging me.
Marc:I don't know if it sounds as good as I think it does.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:Am I self-indulgent?
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:Enneagrams.
Marc:What do you know about him?
Marc:What do you know?
Marc:What do you know about Gurdjieff?
Marc:What do you know about that guy?
Marc:I don't know anything about him.
Marc:And I actually went to look for a book that I bought on Gurdjieff, a biography of him.
Marc:I think it was called The War Against Sleep.
Marc:It's the one book that I didn't take with me throughout all of my travels.
Marc:Now I want to know about him because he was sort of like the godfather of this Enneagram business, which is a geometrical construct that represents a a series of triangles and some sort of axis.
Marc:But you can crack any personality type with it and how they connect with other personality types.
Marc:Why am I doing this?
Marc:I have to be beyond this.
Marc:It's just to provoke new stuff.
Marc:If you don't put new shit in, no new shit comes out.
Marc:I got to put new shit in to my brain.
Marc:Because I looked up my personality type and apparently the downside of it is that on its unhealthy side, it could tend to be self-indulgent.
Marc:Am I self-indulgent?
Marc:Is talking about me constantly self-indulgence or is it just my point of view?
Marc:Do I need to talk about other things?
Marc:Is that what you want from me?
Marc:Do you want me to speculate on class war?
Marc:global warming, television shows.
Marc:I do that sometimes.
Marc:I think we can honestly all agree that I've evolved into somebody who is allowing people to make it about them.
Marc:It's not always about me.
Marc:It's all the same shit, folks.
Marc:There's a short menu of human behaviors.
Marc:There's a short menu of things that people do to hurt themselves and other people and fuck everything up.
Marc:It's really just a handful of things.
Marc:It's not that complicated.
Marc:So when it's summed up or the nail gets hit on the head, you're sort of like, holy shit, I'm not that interesting at all.
Marc:If this is an actual disposition, if this is a context that fits me perfectly, it must be fairly general.
Marc:That's why I got to put new shit in my head so new shit comes out.
Marc:Apparently, the machine is not unlike many other machines.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Look, I played Monopoly the other night.
Marc:That's something I did.
Marc:I think me and Jessica have entered the board game phase of our relationship.
Marc:Yeah, Monopoly, that's where I'm at.
Marc:Monopoly buying time till baby time.
Marc:Baby conversations.
Marc:Monopoly.
Marc:I don't play board games.
Marc:I don't play games.
Marc:Don't like losing, but clearly I've matured because I hadn't played Monopoly.
Marc:I don't think ever all the way through.
Marc:And now that I understand what a mortgage is, what jail is, and what taxes are, what owning property is, it's different.
Marc:I never realized it was just programming our youth for the capitalist environment that they're going to be living in.
Marc:It can either be a slumlord or a hotel owner.
Marc:An SRO.
Marc:I've got an SRO on Baltic Ave.
Marc:uh thinking about babies makes me panicky i i i think i would be a good father but thinking about them makes me panicky because like i think like i just like like if i think about having a baby i'm like oh what if it dies like that's it goes that quickly that's how i'm already freaked out just thinking about a baby it's like oh look at it's dead
Marc:I've got to fucking change my thinking if I'm going to enter this world.
Marc:Don't get all freaked out.
Marc:There's no seeds planted.
Marc:Nothing is growing.
Marc:But, you know, we've got to act sooner.
Marc:I'm going to be 100.
Marc:I'm going to be like, ugh.
Marc:Do you want to feed daddy?
Marc:All right, look, this is getting dark.
Marc:I see that the holiday movies are coming out, the Christmas and seasonal films.
Marc:I didn't really realize, or maybe I didn't notice that they're actually doing Hanukkah movies, which I just never noticed that there were seasonal movies for Jews, but there is no doubt that
Marc:that guilt trip and parental guidance are Hanukkah movies.
Marc:I, I, the coming attractions for guilt trip between Bette Midler, Billy Crystal, uh, uh, Barbara Streisand, Seth Rogen.
Marc:You know, if I see those commercials within one hour, I get a weird feeling that I'm in some sort of, uh, you know, post, uh, Friday night service reception.
Marc:Like I'm standing outside of a temple and,
Marc:Very familiar territory.
Marc:But good.
Marc:I'm glad we finally have Hanukkah movies.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Before I forget, I will be in Philly, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, tonight, tomorrow, and Saturday, December 6th, 7th, and 8th at Helium.
Marc:Come down.
Marc:There might be tickets left.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:That is all.
Marc:Look at that.
Marc:An I Have Issues shirt.
Marc:An I Have Issues t-shirt, which is a box of comics.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:My girlfriend hates this shirt.
Marc:Where'd you get that shirt?
Guest:Someone gave it to me.
Guest:It was a present.
Guest:I'm one of those very honorable people.
Guest:Anytime someone gives me a gift, I'm like, I have to wear it.
Guest:I'm just happy to get something.
Guest:I'm going to get a lot of... Do you thank them?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shoot him an email or someone come up to you at a show and just give you that?
Guest:No, it was a friend.
Guest:I always, if you give me a t-shirt, I will wear it in your presence at least once.
Guest:It doesn't matter how shitty or novelty it is.
Marc:That's very sweet of you.
Marc:I wish I could say the same.
Marc:I mean, I get some things.
Marc:I have to separate the stuff that is, this is a thoughtful gift and this is me pimping my shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if it's an artist, I don't mind if they pimp some shit.
Marc:I'll put on an art t-shirt for a little while.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But then I went through a period where I was not going to... I was very against wearing t-shirts with anything on them.
Marc:I was a tabula rasa, man.
Marc:Blank slate.
Marc:I'm not going to fucking parade any bullshit on my chest.
Guest:that was one of those like i just wanted to belong kind of people i i remember i went to a bell and sebastian concert and i bought the t-shirt there and put it on and all those fucking judgmental assholes were just staring at me and my friends you got to take that off you can't say i can't be with that guy he's like you're the dude who's wearing the t-shirt of the band but i want him to notice me he wanted the band to notice you because yeah
Guest:Look how much I care.
Guest:I love you guys.
Guest:I can't even remember Bell and Sebastian.
Guest:Yeah, the dude has the real lispy voice.
Guest:We rule the school.
Guest:Are you still listening to them?
Guest:Not as much.
Guest:Any time I don't have to listen to a band, I almost feel like, oh, I don't need them anymore.
Marc:Yeah, I've grown.
Marc:I'm beyond that.
Marc:Those emotions that they evoked are behind me.
Guest:Marilyn Manson was like, it's okay.
Guest:You can go fuck girls now.
Guest:He let you go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I release you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You were big Manson, Marilyn Manson.
Guest:Oh, I was.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that shit.
Guest:He went, he went to my community college.
Guest:So it was kind of, where was that?
Guest:Uh, that was a Broward community college.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:You're a Florida guy.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:Broward County.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You live in a, what was it?
Marc:Fort Lauderdale?
Marc:Davie?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Davie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're from Davie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right down the street from my mother.
Marc:I had no idea that Marilyn Manson was a Florida guy.
Marc:That all makes sense now.
Marc:Yeah, it really does.
Marc:Tell me about, man.
Marc:Florida is fucking weird.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I used to hate it.
Marc:I know we've talked once before on the mics.
Marc:I don't know what's going to repeat itself, but we'll have a longer conversation now.
Guest:We'll find out, and someone will tell us.
Guest:That's the great thing.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:Yeah, I heard Mike Lawrence already covered that shit with you on the live one.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why is his dad still an alcoholic?
Marc:Why does he get that shit fixed?
Marc:He should be over that.
Marc:It's been six months.
Marc:Your dad's alcoholic?
Marc:Well, he was, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's good.
Marc:He's better now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, has he passed away?
Guest:No, no, no, he's alive.
Guest:Okay, all right.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's a... Sober dude.
Guest:Yeah, I went to AA meetings when I was a kid.
Guest:Oh, that's fun.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:A lot of cigarettes, coffee.
Marc:I can't imagine with the weird cryptic charts on the wall, the 12 steps and the 12 traditions.
Marc:How old were you when you went to an AA meeting?
Marc:Seven.
Marc:So you're seven.
Marc:You walk into it.
Marc:At that time, everyone's smoking.
Guest:I was prepared for the future of open mics that I would be going to.
Guest:Oh, I've seen this.
Guest:Tough crowd.
Guest:These needy assholes.
Guest:I'll tell you this.
Guest:You take your kid to an AA meeting when they are seven, they will never go to one by themselves.
Marc:Ever.
Guest:No.
Marc:Unless you take them several times.
Guest:Scared sober.
Guest:At seven.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, and, well, the thing was that, you know, the prayer that they do.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I would have to hold hands with, like, just two fucking alcoholics.
Guest:not a lot like maybe less than 10 times more than 5 grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change yeah and I was like what the hell is this shit you know like that was my introduction to religion was the people who needed it the most yeah well that's a good thing that's a sweet thing yeah but at least you saw it in action yeah and my dad quit AA
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Partially because of the religion and all that.
Guest:And he was like, I could do this on my own.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a really bad alcoholic.
Guest:I say it's the main reason that my parents divorced.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And is he a cranky old bastard or is he a serene motherfucker?
Guest:He's kind of sad, remorseful.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Like Bruce Banner after he turned into the Hulk.
Guest:Like, I know what I did.
Guest:Just like mournful.
Guest:He felt bad about all of it.
Guest:This is how you know you're the son of an alcoholic.
Guest:When I was born, he was in the hospital on a different wing because he had fallen asleep and got a pneumonia while fishing.
Yeah.
Guest:He just passed out with the fish.
Guest:Yeah, got fucking drunk, became a Jimmy Buffett song.
Marc:So he's still remorseful, beats himself up about it?
Guest:A little bit, but that phase is done.
Guest:What happened, I was raised joint custody.
Guest:So one week I was at my mom's and one week I was at my dad's.
Marc:How far away?
Marc:Both in Broward County?
Marc:Yeah, about like 15 minutes.
Marc:That's so wild.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you just drive across town?
Guest:Yeah, I had two childhoods basically.
Guest:Or none at all.
Guest:I had two childhoods.
Marc:So when you go over to your dad, which one was the one where you're like, yes, thank God, I'm here.
Marc:Dad.
Marc:Because what's the difference?
Marc:Mom was the bad cop.
Guest:Well, mom was with another dude, got remarried, had a kid, so I didn't really fit in that picture as much.
Guest:But a guy who feels really sorry for the shit he did is going to buy you a lot of pizza and video games.
Guest:It's awesome.
Guest:Pity Pizza.
Guest:That's the guy.
Guest:Oh, it was great.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I loved him.
Guest:I love my mom, too, but we would go see wrestling.
Guest:We would go to the arcade all the time, and he was the fun guy.
Guest:He brought you to wrestling, like professional wrestling?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Back in the day before it got, well, I don't know, how old are you?
Marc:I'm 29.
Marc:So it was already on its way to becoming quite a sort of, not just an orchestrated spectacle, but a large business at that time?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:been orchestrated but no no i know but it wasn't like the sort of homespun car lot uh veteran hall wrestling oh yeah where every territory had their own champion yeah yeah it was like the hulk hogan yeah i grew up on hulk hogan which is that goes back to the t-shirt thing yeah because you would always go to wrestling events with your favorite wrestlers t-shirt and even even now to this day when you see like wrestlers in the ring they always have their own t-shirt like cm punk will go to the ring with whatever new shirt he has
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:And I was like, that's awesome.
Guest:He really cares about himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or if you were to go back in time, you're like, I got to get one of those.
Guest:Is that available?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:But I was also probably the only wrestling fan at a Bell and Sebastian concert.
Marc:I think it's something, I don't know, but the comic books were important too, right?
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:So you were, like I didn't, I'm trying to think what I did when I was a kid.
Marc:It wasn't that, I mean I was more of a music kid, but I guess the escape of it was what was satisfying.
Marc:Like, do you just get lost in a comic or go to the rest of it?
Guest:Well, it's just that, like, you know, in real life, you know, if your parents die, you just, you know, have problems getting erections or something.
Guest:Like, if your parents die in a comic book, you throw batarangs at people that beat the shit out of clowns, you know?
Guest:Like, fucking cool stuff happens, you know?
Guest:Like, your uncle gets shot, and you can climb up walls.
Guest:in real life it's just like thursdays make you uncomfortable that's no superpower so it's like there's that there's that awesome like wow because every every comic book something horrible happens so that it's sort of like a mythology that made you uh comfortable with the idea of death in a way or at least avoid it effectively or frame it a different way yeah
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:I never really thought about that.
Marc:I mean, I understood the entertainment of it or like this gets me out of my head or my life.
Marc:But the actual framing of like, well, hey, I can handle death in the comic book.
Guest:Yeah, because there's so many real life problems in comic books that are fantasized and awesome.
Guest:I mean, Captain America is just a dude who took steroids.
Guest:That's his origin.
Guest:They just gave him steroids.
Guest:But it's not like his balls are small or anything.
Guest:That we know of.
Guest:There's no big bald patch and just acne.
Guest:It's like, no, he just gets to punch Nazis.
Marc:Right, but haven't there later when comic books became a sort of more established, almost kind of campy punk rock art form, weren't there some people that did alternative stories for some of the established superheroes?
Marc:Wasn't there a Superman?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:book that was written by somebody else or it wasn't where he was in Russia I don't remember what it was but I remember that someone did an alternative take on the Superman story oh they do those all the time yeah those are like the Elseworlds stories or what if yeah yeah the fantastic yeah I love it like yeah it's like here's the uh you know um fantasy version of the real stories of these characters because we're just like that's not how it happened yeah
Guest:that's wrong i can prove it anytime something changes like that's not what what what batman did there's nothing whenever whenever you get an argument about what batman would and wouldn't do it's just like oh god come on is it anyone as an adult i would think that would be sort of a reality check moment
Guest:Oh, yeah, that really is any time you want to, if you see two nerds and you want them to shut up, just go, this is made for children.
Guest:And there's no defense against that because it is.
Guest:Even like Dark Knight Rises where they're like, I like the dystopian version.
Guest:It's like he's still got the fucking ears.
Guest:It's still stupid.
Guest:It's just you couldn't get over dad needing booze more than you at some point.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Did you just talk to your child inside of you?
No.
Marc:Is that what just happened?
Guest:Did we witness something?
Guest:Yeah, my child is also wearing an I have issues shirt.
Marc:But did you have those conversations?
Marc:Was there a point where you realized that, where you'd have these conversations where you'd get a new issue of a comic book and you were disappointed and like, I don't know, this doesn't seem like something this guy would do.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Well, the biggest example of that to most comic book fans is the Clone Saga, which was a mid-90s.
Guest:The mid-90s are usually considered the time that comic books completely dropped off and got really terrible.
Guest:And what they revealed was that for the last 10 years, the Spider-Man that you've been reading is actually a clone.
Yeah.
Guest:No, they can't do that to your childhood.
Guest:Oh, they did.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And this story went on for three and a half years.
Guest:His name was Ben Reilly, and he was the clone.
Guest:And I'm sure in the comments you'll get more added detail to this.
Guest:And it was it, and it just kept going on.
Guest:How old were you when that happened?
Guest:I was 12, and I stopped reading Spider-Man.
Guest:I had a subscription.
Guest:I gave it up.
Guest:Most people did.
Guest:If you ask a good amount of comic book fans when they stopped caring, they'll say the Clone Saga.
Guest:They killed Superman in the early 90s, and so then the industry realized we have to just keep doing these shitty events to get people into it.
Guest:So then they broke Batman's back.
Guest:They killed off and replaced Green Lantern.
Marc:Was that when you realized it was all some sort of sham and that they had no respect for you as a child with an active imagination who believed?
Guest:Yeah, well, yeah, it's like it's always that there's always that like really hopeless moment as a kid when you realize, oh, wait, they're just doing this for money.
Guest:I thought it was so that I could sleep at night, you know?
Guest:It was like when the purity goes away.
Guest:Because back then, all the covers were really shiny, and they had holograms and stuff.
Marc:So that was the day you lost your innocence, was the Clone Saga.
Guest:Well, it was either that or when I fucked a fat girl that didn't love me at 23.
Guest:But let's go with Clone Saga.
Guest:Let's go with the first one.
Marc:There's an evolution of losing one's innocence.
Marc:You lose it once, and then you just... The rest of your life, kill it.
Marc:You slowly strangle whatever childlike awe and wonder or hopes and dreams you had as each year passes.
Guest:But what's amazing, though, is that...
Guest:But the part of you that is still a child that still lets you believe still lets you get hurt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, like, you know, even, like, I just did see The Dark Knight Rises, and I didn't like it that much, but I'm like, oh, man, that Superman trailer looks good.
Guest:The cycle continues.
Guest:You know?
Guest:It's just that it's always that.
Guest:I cried in the theater when the first Spider-Man came out because of how much I hated it.
Guest:And then at the end, I was like, man, I hope they get it right in the second one.
Yeah.
Guest:Did you really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Did they get it right the second one?
Guest:No.
Guest:It was a little better.
Guest:What was missing, Mike?
Guest:It took him an hour to become Spider-Man.
Guest:He wasn't funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and it's the thing is that, you know, when you say the things like, oh, this character would do this and they would do that, what you're really saying is, I would do this and I would do that.
Guest:It's like, Spider-Man's funny because I'm funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I make people laugh.
Guest:And I want, you know, I feel like when, you know, there's no difference between when I'm in a room full of people watching Spider-Man and when I'm doing a set.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because either way I feel like everything that I've invested in in my life is being judged.
Guest:Right.
Right.
Guest:so you know like when people are like i didn't like the avengers i'm like i'm sorry you know i just i don't i don't know you know what what what could they have done i mean i just i did you like the avengers i loved it yeah well so they did it right yeah and there was humor and it was uh and it had a good clip to it and it justified all that pain yeah yeah it was like here you go yeah yeah we're here for you you know well
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:I'm so glad.
Marc:Well, I guess the jump from comics and wrestling to Marilyn Manson makes sense.
Marc:There's the spectacle of it.
Guest:Oh, yeah, just the theatricality and stuff.
Guest:Well, I would go, there was this, I was often like, I mean, almost everything that I liked was originally because somebody else did.
Guest:Well, I think that's the way we grow.
Guest:But then I would stick around and I would out like them in it and then they would walk away from it.
Guest:Like, I would have friends who liked comic books, but then I'd be the guy who knew everything about them.
Guest:Like, I don't want to talk to you anymore, asshole.
Guest:This isn't a competition.
Guest:Yeah, I love The Simpsons, but then, you know, I would ruin it by quoting it all the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was big into Beavis and Butthead.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I remember there was one time, me and my friend, we got T-shirts and we spray-painted AC, DC, and Metallica on the shirts like Beavis and Butthead had.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:and they confiscated them because of the paint fumes.
Guest:Were it at school?
Guest:Yeah, we just painted them ourselves, and it just reeked.
Guest:Were you high?
Guest:Did you get high from the fumes?
Guest:I love it, yeah.
Guest:I used to sniff whiteout.
Guest:I was one of those kids.
Guest:Whiteout?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was that one of the things?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do the blue paint or the paint or anything?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Paint sometimes, but mainly white out and shit, yeah.
Guest:And I was suicidal when I was a teenager.
Marc:But were you sniffing paint on purpose, like huffing, like putting it in a bag and doing the whole business or just at school?
Marc:No, who the fuck needs to do that?
Marc:You just take a can of white out.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:You get a good buzz?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you were suicidal when you were how old?
Guest:I was like 17, 16.
Guest:Like for reals?
Guest:Yeah, I mean...
Guest:I'm alive, so no.
Guest:You can't really... I wasn't really into it.
Guest:It felt good to think about.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's like... I think in a certain disposition, there's something comforting about suicidal rumination.
Guest:Oh, yeah, and when you're a teenager, you know, there are two things that give you power when you feel completely powerless, and one is telling people you don't believe in God.
Guest:In a place like Florida, you know?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In New York, they just don't give a fuck.
Guest:But, like, in Florida, like, I was, you know, I kind of grew up atheist, and there was, oh, my God, I would love just ruining people's lives.
Guest:Sundays.
Guest:How'd you do that?
Guest:Oh, I would just, you know, I would talk to them about it and, you know, there's no God.
Guest:There was such a power in that.
Guest:And then, you know, telling people that you were going to kill yourself.
Guest:It would be like, yeah, now they'll care.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:or now it's about me anyways yeah but by the second or third time you say it and yeah do it already they see you come back to like pussy yeah yeah couldn't do it huh no and i i thought about it i attempted you know what'd you how'd you attempt to do that oh it's the saddest i i tried hanging myself oh no in my in my in my high school theater with the curtain rope
Marc:No.
Marc:Really?
Guest:During a show?
Guest:I just had this amazing vision of someone finding me and me just going, end scene.
Guest:I was so overdramatic.
Guest:Comic book hero.
Guest:The tragic end.
Guest:I was the kind of person then that would buy one of my albums now.
Marc:So how did it pan out?
Guest:I was just there for like four minutes.
Guest:It was hurting, but I didn't hang.
Guest:I was just standing there.
Guest:You didn't dangle?
Guest:There was no leverage.
Guest:But I didn't know that.
Guest:I was just like, yeah, this is how you do it.
Marc:So you were alone in the school theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was dark.
Marc:And you were just there on stage next to the curtain rope.
Guest:I would put BB guns to my head.
Guest:I'm going to do it.
Guest:The fucking BB gun.
Marc:But when did the depression take you over?
Marc:Was it always that?
Marc:Would you feel isolated or alienated?
Marc:Or was it clinical depression, do you think?
Guest:I think it was many things.
Guest:And I don't blame my parents or anything.
Guest:Because, I mean, when it's all said and done, I had a good upbringing and they're good parents.
Guest:But, you know, you can't.
Guest:I had a seventh birthday party and one person showed up.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that kind of shit.
Guest:And that stays with you.
Guest:It does, right?
Guest:Yeah, and never leaves.
Guest:I still don't have birthday parties.
Guest:It's like I'm not going to put myself through that again.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:You know, there's some sad moments.
Marc:And even as an adult, it's like, what do you want to put that out there?
Marc:It's like my birthday.
Marc:And then what if nobody comes?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's part of that whole, that's weird.
Marc:That is the part of the kid in you that stays active is the thing that can get hurt.
Marc:And for some reason, I guess you can kill that, but you don't want to because that's also the thing that, you know, it gives you the ability to appreciate things and feel.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So it's this weird negotiation you have with this injured child.
Marc:Like, you know, what if only one person comes, but I got to still go to parties and stuff.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Well, that was, I just, when the second John Oliver that I did aired, you know, my girlfriend and a few other people were like, oh, you should have a viewing party.
Guest:And I was like, I don't know if I want to do that.
Guest:It sounds weird.
Guest:And she was like, come on, do it.
Guest:And I was like, well, I'm afraid if I don't invite someone, they're going to get pissed.
Guest:Or what if someone doesn't show up?
Guest:So I just put it on Twitter and Facebook.
Guest:I'm like, if you want to come, come and text me for the address.
Guest:I'm like, I'm not going to put my address on Twitter and Facebook.
Guest:and this guy just wrote to me he's like i'm a huge fan of yours and i'd like to show up if it's okay i had no idea who he was yeah i was like yeah right i'm sure no one came to his birthday party either right and we're sitting there and the you know we watch the set and you know my biggest fan uh looks at me afterwards and goes yeah it was pretty good but i'd seen it all before
Guest:And I was like, that's what I would say.
Guest:No.
Marc:But he wasn't the only one there, was he?
Guest:Oh, no, there were other people there.
Marc:That would be an amazing moment if he was the only one there.
Guest:But then another friend, because I was like, man, this went better than I thought.
Guest:He's like, maybe they sweetened it.
Guest:I'm like, shut up.
Guest:It's like, oh, and it's like, maybe it's better no one comes.
Guest:The depression you know versus the depression you don't.
Marc:I know, but are they, I'm very, those kind of things hurt me too, but I don't know that they're saying it to intentionally hurt you, do you?
Marc:I don't I don't know.
Marc:I just like I'm trying to deal with that even with trolls like on the Internet and stuff.
Marc:It's like I know some of them intentionally hurt you.
Marc:And then there are some fans that, you know, I will think that everything is passive aggressive because I'm sort of like so insecure on some level that any sort of slightly off comment.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, you're just fucking you're what?
Marc:Why would you fucking say that?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And you can't not read to them.
Guest:So it's like you're justifying them.
Marc:Why the hell does this bother us?
Marc:Where are our superhero powers just to sort of get through the day?
Marc:Where are those superhero powers?
Guest:Why can't I be Superman instead of just feeling like that shitty Five for Fighting song, Superman?
Guest:Just look at YouTube.
Guest:It's not easy to be me.
Guest:I remember some, like, because I just, I started getting YouTube comments recently because my Conan sent one up there.
Guest:You know, and it's like, I was so happy about that.
Guest:And then just, the first one was boring.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:By a guy named Big Bad Motherfucker.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:You bored Big Bad Motherfucker.
Guest:It's like, what could entertain a Big Bad Motherfucker?
Guest:You know?
Guest:What in you could bring him any sort of happiness?
Guest:Big Bad Motherfucker sounds like someone who was in a Mountain Dew commercial in the 90s.
Guest:He's probably a kid just like you.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But your mom was a comedian.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And at what age were you when she started doing that?
Marc:Two.
Marc:Two.
Marc:Okay, so back in the 80s.
Guest:Let's just say that facilitated the divorce.
Guest:That isn't the reason my parents divorced, but my dad did not support the idea of my mom doing comedy.
Guest:Do you know what inspired her to do it?
Guest:I...
Guest:I don't, but I will say this.
Guest:My uncle, her brother is also a performer.
Guest:So I'm going to say my grandma, who was a battle-axe bitch, tough-ass, fucking hardcore New York Jew, is probably the reason.
Guest:uh when because when both when you have two kids and they both get into it it's like yeah and and and my grandpa was like a real sweetheart but my my grandma was the kind of person who would never say i love you uh and so they probably had to seek that validation elsewhere what what kind of performer is your uncle um he did like characters and he did stand-up and he was a he was a commercial actor and an actor he was in the big apple circus in the 90s and uh
Guest:He was in Bullets Over Broadway, like in a brief role, and that It Could Happen to You movie with Nicolas Cage, and he was, it gets you right here and right here, A1 Steak Sauce guy.
Guest:He was?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he had like a campaign for a little while.
Guest:So he did all right?
Guest:Yeah, he's great.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:And when I moved to New York, he took care of me.
Guest:He fed me once a week and stuff, and I ran out of money, and he gave me a little bit of money.
Guest:So that guy...
Guest:He's all right, that guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He's the best.
Guest:Is he still an actor?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Not as much.
Guest:He wanted to get back into it a little bit, and I tried helping him, but it was tough because he used to do character work at the clubs, and they don't do that anymore.
Marc:But like impressions or-
Guest:No, like, he had characters that he would do, like, you know, fully formed.
Guest:I mean, because back then there was no UCB or anything.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:You got paid to, you know, do the stuff, and now they just take your money.
Guest:Right, and he did.
Guest:Yeah, but he's like, I don't want to take fucking level, you know, one and two.
Guest:It's like, I'd spent...
Guest:you know, 10 years trying to feed my daughters doing this shit.
Guest:I, you know, I don't need to also.
Marc:What's his name?
Guest:Phil Stein.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And did he, like, was he a comedy club guy?
Marc:I mean, did he do comedy?
Guest:I think so for a while, yeah.
Guest:Like, he knew Louis starting out and all those guys.
Marc:It's so wild that you're a child of that generation.
Marc:And your mom, did she ever do any television?
Guest:No.
No.
Marc:How long did she do stand-up for?
Guest:I want to say like maybe 12, 15 years.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you grew up, were you being dragged to comedy clubs?
Guest:Not a lot.
Guest:Well, you know, the joint custody thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So a lot of the times.
Guest:You were on weekends at your dad's?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she toured and she opened for people and she headlined or what?
Guest:Yeah, she stayed in Florida for the most part.
Guest:Because like I said, she had a daughter, you know, when I was seven and, you know, family and stuff.
Guest:Do you have a relationship with her, the daughter?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Great relationship.
Guest:We were really close.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I didn't have any friends really growing up, so we would hang out all the time.
Guest:I would take her to movies.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:I just watched the first half of the Woody Allen documentary, and he had a sister that was about seven years difference, and he had a very strong relationship with her.
Marc:It must be nice to sort of like, oh, I can take.
Marc:I got a friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was weird because seven years is a huge gap.
Guest:But I would get into the stuff.
Guest:I would watch Spice World, the Spice Girl movie all the time.
Guest:I could tell you the names of all the Backstreet Boys and NSYNC.
Guest:And I'll say, oh, it's because my sister.
Guest:But I kind of like this stuff too.
Yeah.
Marc:It was that in Marilyn Manson, you know.
Marc:That didn't raise your status points, I guess, in high school and whatnot.
Guest:Yeah, and I think she was, you know, probably, if there was a reason I can go back and say, well, I didn't kill myself besides being a pussy, it would be my sister, you know.
Guest:It's like when you just love someone and care about them, they don't get into your act.
Guest:that's why no one knows i have a sister it's like what the fuck am i gonna say about her yeah so oh that's interesting so you just like that's sacred in a way yeah so your your love for your sister sort of was the only bat the only sort of uh shield against uh paralyzing darkness that you yeah well once spider-man was revealed as a clone all you had was your sister what if she what if it turns out she was that all the time she was there
Guest:for me see see wouldn't that be shitty uh so did you uh did you watch tapes of your mother's act and stuff or yeah i i did and i and i did see her a few times and you know i remember you know when i was like 12 or 13 i saw her go up and my substitute teacher was the opener this guy that i knew yeah douchebag yeah like jerry curl a white guy i was like yeah like 12 or 13 yeah so you went out to the club
Guest:Yeah, oh, and it was like a steakhouse.
Guest:It wasn't even a club.
Guest:And she went up, and this other guy that I knew went up and did a Beavis and Butthead impression, which that was sacred to me.
Guest:Like, you fucking ass.
Marc:asshole and a kid or no one yeah 13 year olds don't like stand up for the most part yeah it's terrible well i did i mean i think i did i mean like i liked funny people but i don't know like that level of stand up having been on both sides of that yeah having done my share of steakhouse gigs yeah there's no way you're really going to transcend that environment
Guest:A comedy night at a steakhouse.
Guest:Stand-up is like the most self-absorbed art form and 13 is the most self-absorbed age.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you're watching adults that I can only imagine it.
Marc:Can you remember how you felt seeing your mom in that situation?
Guest:Oh, I hated it.
Marc:But were you sad?
Guest:I was angry.
Guest:I was bored.
Guest:I was like, why the hell am I here?
Guest:Was she getting laughs?
Guest:Yeah, she was good.
Guest:You know, I mean, but it wasn't my style.
Guest:It's still not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's hard.
Guest:But I remember I didn't laugh at all, and she called me out on it later, and I was like, well, you didn't do anything to make me laugh, and it broke her heart.
Marc:The honest kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, did it hurt him?
Guest:But that's, you know, telling someone God doesn't exist.
Guest:It's like that power.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'd heard it all before.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you're my mom.
Marc:What do you want from me?
Guest:Yeah, and it was just that, well, I mean, come on.
Marc:I'm assuming that was the last time she asked you to come to a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, or that I didn't get it either.
Guest:She would talk about me being eight, or I'm like, I'm 13 now.
Guest:What the fuck?
Marc:She did material about you.
Guest:Yeah, or she did this whole bit about, you know, and my husband took my son to Hooters.
Guest:I'm like, he doesn't take me anywhere.
Guest:Bullshit.
Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'd like to go to Hooters.
Marc:Just, you know, fucking... Why are you making that shit up?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he's not your husband.
Guest:He's fake dad.
Guest:Did you get along with that guy?
Guest:I'm Larry David.
Guest:You know, I've...
Guest:I've learned to accept the things I cannot change.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And change the things I can't.
Guest:It sunk in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I never, I mean, but it's also, if your real dad is still around, you're going to hate fake dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fake dad sucks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's, because you're a fake son, you know, it's like, he doesn't give a shit about, you're just, I mean.
Guest:You came with the package.
Guest:Yeah, me and my brother were anchors on a ship that could never fully... We were out of place there.
Marc:The weights that your mother was tethered to when he got her.
Marc:You were literally baggage.
Guest:Yeah, and it says something about her and that she still wanted us there.
Guest:And it says a lot about both my parents that they made it work.
Guest:Because in so many of those situations, someone just leaves.
Guest:But...
Guest:they i mean they had an agreement that you know they would always live within 20 you know miles of each other until we were both 18 and do they still though no no oh yeah let's look at i was 18 who took off um well it wasn't when i was 18 but my mom took off in 2004 and they to the poconos they still live there the last two years
Guest:that my mom and dad were living near each other.
Guest:They lived six streets away from each other.
Guest:My mom moved in the same trailer park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That when my dad was in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was like, to me, that was the best because anytime I got in an argument there, I would just leave.
Guest:And go down to the other train.
Guest:Because, yeah, I used to get in arguments all the time with my mom and fake dad.
Guest:And it would just like, I would have to stay there and get like all pissy and stuff.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, yeah, well, I don't have to take this shit.
Guest:And then two minutes later, I'd just be back and, you know.
Guest:Because at that point, I was living with my dad full time.
Marc:At the trailer park?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I guess that's an easier agreement to make when it's just a walk across the lot.
Marc:I don't need this.
Marc:Can I live with my dad?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Go ahead.
Marc:You don't owe me.
Marc:How'd they fucking end up in the same trailer park?
Marc:And what the hell is it?
Marc:What's trailer park life like?
Guest:We were in Paradise Village, which is like the best trailer park, which is still the worst house.
Marc:Okay, so there were lots that had preexisting- They're mobile homes.
Marc:They're mobile homes.
Marc:But did you have to buy your own mobile home and drive it in, or was it just there?
Guest:No, they're there.
Guest:They're stationary.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:But yeah, it's a trailer park.
Guest:I mean, they're really poorly made.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, like, so where I was, there was, like, a hub of them.
Guest:There were, like, four or five different.
Guest:There was, like, King's Manor and Western Hills.
Guest:And, you know, they're, like, kind of the factions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we lived definitely in the nicest one.
Guest:And it had, like, its own, like, little lake and a little park and stuff.
Marc:And... What's the difference between a trailer park and a development, though, if they're stationary?
Guest:I mean, if you couldn't drive... I mean, because they were driven there and then parked.
Guest:Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Marc:so they had wheels or no they originally did and then they built them up on foundations so was that but it's like all that plasticky outside you know where like it looks like wood but it's not that's a trailer park right but like what what was like would you i have to assume that that the proximity to other people was insanely close
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I mean, I've got neighbors here.
Marc:I see them occasionally, but I imagine with the trailer park that everybody just wants to get out of their homes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So they're just milling about or sitting outside.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was it, mostly retired people or desperate people?
Guest:There were some, yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah, a lot of poor people and stuff.
Guest:You know, it was...
Guest:Some of the other ones were trashier, but there was definitely trashiness.
Guest:But it's also like living on the fault line.
Guest:You're on borrowed time in those places.
Guest:Because they could... I mean, I remember... And I know we're jumping all over the place, but when I was... The genesis of how I started comedy, if you had to really pin it down, was...
Guest:I started a week after this happened, but Hurricane Wilma in 2005 came through, and my dad made me go to a shelter.
Guest:He was already with someone else, and he's like, you got to just go and, you know, please.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because he had a chick?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I went to the shelter and it was like one of the most depressing.
Guest:I'd never been to a hurricane shelter and it truly made me feel like- You were alone?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I truly felt abandoned.
Guest:I was like, I'm in this fucking shitty shelter and it's like, and there are some sad people in a hurricane shelter.
Marc:I remember there was- I would think that'd be the only kind of people that would-
Guest:When we were, you know, the eye of the storm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you're, like, right in the eye of a hurricane, it's, like, really calm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember this guy, like, was breaking down the barricade so he can run out and smoke a cigarette during the eye before it got really shitty again.
Guest:And anyway, like, I ended up befriending, like, this, like, 80-year-old, like, veteran.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This, like, old, like, hardened, you know, anchor tattoo badass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we got along great because, you know.
Guest:We both were able to sound sheltered and defeated in the same way.
Guest:And I'd been working at McDonald's for almost six years at that point.
Guest:So I was something of a local celebrity because all the people there knew me because these were all my customers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were like, hey, McDonald's guy.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:I was 22.
Guest:At the shelter.
Guest:At the shelter, yeah.
Guest:And I remember the veteran guy, he takes me back that Monday morning after the hurricane hit.
Guest:And we drive through Paradise Village, and it's like, you know, one home is fine, and then two are destroyed.
Guest:One's fine, and then five are destroyed.
Guest:You know, there's trees.
Guest:Because that's how it is when you live in those places.
Guest:In my place, there was, like, a hole in the roof, and there was all this water.
Guest:You know, a lot of my comic books got destroyed.
Yeah.
Marc:Is that your mom's place or your dad's place?
Guest:This is my dad's place.
Guest:When I was 16, I fully chose to live with my dad full time.
Guest:I think 15, when I went to high school.
Guest:He also was working at a hospital, so he would be there to, he wasn't a doctor or anything, but he was like a maintenance engineer guy.
Guest:And he was there to, like, hold the door shut and all of that.
Guest:And so you all came home to a roof ripped off and comic books ruined.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, there was no electricity for, you know, a little bit.
Guest:And I remember I had a manual typewriter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:and I wrote my first jokes on it, and I started stand-up a week later, because there's something, the futility of that, realizing that you could just... Right, that you have no control over anything.
Guest:Yeah, and it was this ultimate thing of like,
Guest:well, I wish I was dead in the shelter, but I could have been dead in the trailer.
Guest:Like, oh, there's nothing safe.
Guest:There's nowhere I want to be right now.
Guest:And I was studying to be a teacher at the time.
Guest:That's what I was going to do.
Guest:I was going to teach English.
Guest:I had almost all of my credits.
Guest:All I had left was the 90 hours of student teaching in like two classes.
Guest:And I realized, I don't want to do this with my life.
Marc:And so that moment where that was like some sort of deep realization that like,
Marc:This is all so fragile.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And at any point it can be taken away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember in the shelter I was making people laugh a lot of the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because they were like, everyone's afraid.
Guest:Everyone's terrified.
Guest:And we all knew because a lot of the people whose homes were destroyed, those were the people I was talking to in the shelter.
Guest:yeah i knew i knew some of those people and i knew their homes were fucked yeah yeah yeah and after that you're like well what i mean it's all you could die any day and it's like then why do something you don't like why do something shitty and selfish like teach english when you could be a selfless compassionate person do stand up yeah
Marc:Realizing that.
Marc:I think you got those switched around.
Guest:Yeah, but there was so much about being a teacher that I realized.
Guest:Because when I was 15, I was like, that's what I'm going to do if I don't kill myself.
Guest:I remember also when I was 15, I'd made a pact with myself that if I was...
Guest:30 and I wasn't happy, then I would end it all.
Guest:If I didn't have the exact life that I wanted, I was like, I'll throw it all away.
Guest:So you're kinda hard on yourself though.
Guest:Oh yeah, and then I had all these fake attempts anyway after 15.
Marc:But when he started writing jokes, the feeling was that I can control this or that I can at least, I always wonder about that when you write jokes,
Marc:and you're a joke writer, so you started writing things down, so they gave you relief, and you were like, oh, that's funny, or this is like a little puzzle, and then you got excited.
Marc:Where'd you go on stage for the first time?
Guest:Well, I had been doing teen poetry since 15.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I was a goth who couldn't afford to dress like a goth.
Guest:You know, it's funny, like, going to, like, Hot Topic is so much more expensive than, like, Abercrombie and Fitch or The Gap.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, it costs so much more to look shitty than it does to dress nice.
Guest:And, you know, I couldn't afford eyeliner and all that.
Guest:I shaved my eyebrows when I was 17.
Guest:And I hadn't even seen Pink Floyd's The Wall.
Guest:I just thought it was cool.
Guest:I was like, I'm going to show people the darkness within.
Guest:And I was like, I don't want any shelter between my eyes.
Guest:So I shaved off my eyebrows.
Guest:And this was the week I was at my dad's, and he dropped me off at my mom's.
Guest:She was like, you let him shave his eyebrows?
Guest:He's like, I didn't notice.
Guest:I don't look at him.
Marc:I don't look at him.
Guest:So what is teen poetry?
Guest:I would write poems.
Guest:I wrote slam poetry and that kind of stuff.
Marc:And you'd do it in front of people?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my dad would drop me off at the library.
Guest:It was a teen poetry thing at the library.
Marc:So there was a group of people that did it?
Guest:Yeah, but I wasn't in a team.
Guest:Because they kicked me out when I was 18 and a half.
Guest:They cut me off.
Guest:You've been here too long.
Guest:Because I would go with seven or eight poems and everyone else.
Guest:It was like 12-year-old girls would have one or two poems.
Guest:And I would just dominate.
Marc:Would you bring the darkness?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd shit on the other poets and stuff.
Guest:They were like, no, get out of here, asshole.
Guest:I was like, you can't do it.
Guest:I need this.
Guest:And even then I was like, this is what's keeping me alive.
Marc:Well, it kind of is.
Marc:I used to write poems in college, and I started writing them in high school, but there was no teen poetry.
Marc:There was no slam poetry.
Marc:There was no nothing.
Marc:I remember I wrote these poems because we had an assignment in an English class, and I read them.
Marc:And, of course, they were really heavy-hearted and dark and just sort of full of longing and weirdness.
Marc:And I remember reading a couple, and my teacher was like, the whole class was like, what the fuck?
Marc:it just happened everyone's reading these couplets and these ridiculous poems and I was like doing free verse about you know why how come I hadn't lost my virginity yet and I've been in a lot of ways that that's what got you into comedy I guess but the power of that probably I didn't get yeah but the power was that where people were like holy fuck what's wrong with this guy like my teacher was like oh that's that's very nice Mark that's very you know with that weird but you didn't see that as glamorous at all
Marc:Well, I think I enjoyed the effect, you know, that it had an effect on people, you know, and I can't say that some of my comedy hadn't, does not have the same effect.
Marc:You know, it took me a while to, you know, maybe up until last year to sort of just focus on the laugh and not to like, oh, you know what I mean?
Marc:But you were getting laughs with the poems?
Guest:A little unintentionally sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I did slam poetry when George Bush was president, so you could imagine the horrific shit that I just listened to.
Guest:And the machine, the corporate structure that rips you apart, that pisses in your heart, that makes you sing, all that shit.
Guest:That awful poet cadence.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but you had something to say, man.
Marc:You were angry and it was a template through which to express your discontent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the place that I did that a lot, the chocolate mousse is where I first did stand up.
Guest:And I did, I did, I want to say I did like a five minute set and then I did a song called Kiss a Terrorist about like, why don't you kiss a terrorist about, it was all about like xenophobia and stuff.
Guest:It was like a country song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:About, you know, like hating liberals.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was a satire.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you, do you play guitar?
Guest:No, I couldn't sing at all.
Marc:Which made it better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember I was up there and one of the lines was, if I knew you were cool with Jews, you'd be the first one on my list.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was this woman who had like one of the waitresses there had like a Star of David necklace and everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:remember you know like she's like you can't do that here and you know um and you know i'd been going for years with poems no one ever told me anything my first time doing comedy i was already censored i loved it it was the best and then and then i went back and like was even darker and edgier like you can't silence me
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first time was five minutes in a song and then I didn't do anything.
Guest:I just kept writing that whole week.
Guest:I went back to that same place the next week and did 17 minutes of all mostly different stuff.
Guest:And you were just provoking people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's a good feeling.
Marc:It's a very specific type of attention.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That kind of like, you know, at first people were like, oh, I'm gonna tolerate this guy.
Marc:And then you just see their face turn into like, who the fuck does he think?
Guest:But some of the people liked it.
Guest:Of course, of course, because it shakes shit up.
Guest:Yeah, one of my, like the first closer that I ever had, that first set by last joke was, they say that laughter is the best medicine.
Guest:So I went to a children's cancer hospital and laughed at everybody.
Bye.
Bye.
Guest:How'd that go?
Guest:Some people liked it, but a lot of people didn't.
Guest:And then I just, I don't know why I kept writing cancer material.
Guest:So then I did the 17 minutes and then the third, because after that second set, this guy was like, hey, I know this woman who runs like a comedy show.
Guest:Do you want to do it?
Guest:And I was like, yeah.
Guest:And it was like in West Palm Beach.
Guest:And I went and it was a lesbian bar and I did 10 minutes and I did this whole thing about breast cancer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, a part of it was like, yeah, I'm edgy.
Guest:But a part of it, too, was, well, this is all I have.
Guest:Like, these are the jokes I wrote and I have to tell the jokes I wrote.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're three weeks in and you got to say stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so and in my mind, that was like the best joke that I had had.
Guest:What was the joke?
Guest:I just did this whole act out about breast cancer porn.
Guest:What do you want to take off, your top or your hair?
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:And they were booing me.
Guest:A guy threw a bottle at me.
Guest:The sound of that bottle shattering behind me was basically the sound it made was, you will be in this forever.
Guest:This is the life that you have chosen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If someone throws a beer bottle at you and it doesn't hit you and you get a reaction.
Guest:I mean, because I mean, in my mind, it was also I'd done all this teen poetry for years.
Guest:No one really cared.
Guest:I told all these people I was going to kill myself.
Guest:No one really cared.
Guest:I finally got the thing that I had been seeking all those years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The acknowledgement.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, like a crashing beer bottle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're like, I'm making an impact.
Guest:People finally showed up to my seventh birthday party, even if it was just to tell me to go fuck myself.
Guest:They were there.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And it was like, that's it.
Guest:And I'm hooked.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love that story.
Marc:Well, I also think that, you know, just judging, you know, listening to that kind of weird mortality fear that, you know, one of the ways I think that morbid fascination or dark jokes, it's sort of like it makes you bigger than that fear.
Marc:That like, you know, even though it may be disrespectful to cancer survivors or whatever, when you're making cancer jokes, somehow or another, you're bigger than cancer in that moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's funny because it's like when you make these jokes about death and all that, people don't realize like, oh no, but I've been thinking about how I'm going to die all this time.
Guest:This is something I'm really into.
Marc:Well, it's a delicate line to ride if you're going to continue along.
Marc:It's like how much do you want to offend and if you have any compassion at all for people or victims or people you don't know or people that may be in pain because of specific things.
Marc:You know, how do you balance, you know, that the disposition of darkness that you want to be you with the fact that, you know, are you a nice guy?
Marc:You know, because it's really hard to say, like, you know, you know, talking about rotting breasts for 15 minutes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Walk up, you know, walk up to an audience member, go, huh?
Marc:You're pretty good, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and it's weird how it shifts, too, because I've realized, you know, I.
Guest:I mean, the older that I get, you know, it's like that whole thing when I started, you know, I had so much fun causing that reaction and all that.
Guest:And now it's like I am more cautious and I don't know if that's a thing of like, you know, slight success or I think it's maturity.
Guest:But like I remember, you know, when the Batman shootings happened, you know, a couple months ago and...
Guest:You know, if I was 22 when that happened, I would have had 20 minutes on it.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I probably would have too.
Guest:Yeah, and instead, it was like I didn't wear my Batman shirts for two weeks.
Guest:I have a school shooting joke that I've completely gotten out of my act.
Guest:You know, it's basically I was banned from my high school prom because a girl asked me if I was going to go, and I told her I didn't have enough bullets for everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to this day, I still regret not having enough bullets for everybody.
Guest:It's the last time you'll ever hear that joke.
Guest:I can't do it anymore.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because I know what it evokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know.
Marc:Oh, you mean because of recent events?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, I sent it to three different, you know, like standards and practices type things.
Guest:It's been rejected every time.
Guest:And it's like, okay.
Guest:And, you know, there was that old thought of like, no, man, but I'm right and fuck these people.
Guest:And now it's like, oh, yeah, no one wants to think about that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I guess, yeah, you got to pick your battles.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I also think that the need to provoke that type of reaction from an audience has sort of dissipated for you because you've got more to you and more to your brain and you have an interesting way of looking at the world and you have an interesting life experience.
Marc:You don't really need to walk in front of people so they'll go, fuck you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:At some point you're sort of like, yeah, I think I might have gotten into this because I wanted people to like me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what's amazing, too, is that people are like, oh, well, I have to just give up these jokes here.
Guest:But what you get in return is you get to really hate the people that are still doing them.
Guest:And that is almost worth it.
Guest:Fucking asshole.
Guest:You have no sensitivity at all.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's a fine line.
Marc:When you told me that joke, it's not a bad joke.
Marc:But I guess because of the freshness of that recent event, a Columbine reference, it's no longer relevant in the shadow of that thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's not really about worrying about the victims or anything else.
Marc:It's just sort of like, well, that event kind of fucked up my Columbine reference.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we lost 13 people in a great joke.
Guest:This was a real tragedy.
Guest:Another thing was shot that night.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And I'm sure someone right now is seething.
Guest:Like, why are you?
Guest:You can't do that.
Marc:I don't know if they are.
Marc:I think that everyone's confused and frightened all the time.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But what about this, you know, this McDonald's for six years?
Marc:I still find seven.
Guest:I was like, don't take that away from me.
Guest:It's almost like you were trying to help me.
Guest:Look, I will take a year away of this.
Guest:No, it's mine.
Guest:But when did you start working there?
Guest:When I was 16, May 16th, 1999 to December 28th, 2006.
Guest:To 21 or 22?
Guest:Almost, 23 I believe, yeah.
Guest:What was that about?
Guest:It couldn't have just been about money.
Guest:No, it was for the passion.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
Guest:No, you know, when you're 16, you know, your parents say to you, get a fucking job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and that's it.
Guest:Go to McDonald's.
Guest:Like, it's classic.
Guest:I've, you know, and I don't, I've never driven a car before.
Guest:Ever?
Guest:No.
Guest:How'd you get here?
Guest:Someone drove me, but I've been busing all around town most of this week, which has been really fun because I've been going on all these meetings and they're like, tell me about your journey.
Guest:I'm like, I could tell you about the one I just took.
Guest:You
Guest:I want to believe that the 30 people I'm on the bus with are my entourage.
Guest:Look, look, I know I'm nothing to you, but I'm huge in Guatemala.
Marc:So you've been doing the busing around LA.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's going all right?
Marc:It's all right, yeah.
Marc:Is it a good system?
Guest:It's decent.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It's rough.
Guest:Where are you staying?
Guest:Los Feliz.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so, it's so weird.
Marc:I had another conversation with somebody else about taking a bus in LA, and I've never done it.
Marc:But you're not thinking twice about it.
Marc:You don't have a driver's license.
Marc:No, and if someone says you've got a meeting, you go.
Marc:So where'd you bus to?
Marc:What meetings?
Marc:What organizations?
Marc:Just general meetings at networks and stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:That kind of stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, different...
Guest:How are they going?
Guest:I'm still unemployed.
Guest:I think they're okay.
Guest:It's been weird because me for casting is weird because it's like...
Guest:They'll ask me, tell me about yourself, and I do, and it's in this variety, and I'm joking about it because I do think it's always important if you're going to say depressing shit, you have to make it light and palpable.
Guest:People say it's like, oh, you're always on.
Guest:It's like, you don't want to see me when I'm off.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, of course, why wouldn't I be?
Guest:That sounded like a superhero character.
Guest:Yeah, but it's like, I can't plainly just talk about working at McDonald's for seven years.
Guest:Why would you want to hear that?
Guest:It would be depressing.
Marc:But what was it that kept you there anyway?
Marc:Just because you were there and it was comfortable?
Guest:I'm not judging you, but it's a long time.
Guest:No, I'm judging me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And every time I talk about it to people, I have to question that.
Guest:I have to look back.
Guest:Because I never once thought about it when I was there.
Marc:But it was a gig, and it gave you something to do.
Marc:It gave you a life structure.
Marc:It gave you a few bucks.
Marc:It gave you a uniform.
Marc:It gave a context.
Guest:It was the most degrading thing ever, though.
Guest:I still have nightmares about it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like, what are the nightmares?
Guest:That I'm working there.
Marc:The only thing you realize in your dream is that I'm working at McDonald's.
Guest:No, but all the shit that happened, like, you know, people yelling at me and, you know, the way that people treat you in the drive-thru is the most degrading, humiliating thing.
Guest:Nothing that's ever happened to me in comedy even comes close.
Guest:Being heckled doesn't mean anything because they can't see your face and they just yell at you.
Guest:The way that people treat you is degrading.
Guest:The pay, I started at $5.25 an hour, left with $6.45 after like four or five raises.
Marc:I mean, that's... Do you ever think that there's some part of you that thought you deserved that treatment?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:And do you know what that... Because I hated myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no confidence.
Guest:And I've realized almost everything I've ever done in life, I've either been horribly overqualified for or fearfully underqualified for.
Marc:You worked with me in New Jersey, and your fucking comedy's excellent, and you figured out your voice up there and who you are, and you can perform for anybody.
Marc:You're not a specific act.
Marc:You're not like, oh, we work for nerds.
Marc:You're writing good jokes.
Marc:The thing I love about you is that when you get up there, the regular sort of towny crowd is like, oh, what the fuck is this now?
Marc:And then within two minutes, they're like, I get it.
Marc:I get this.
Marc:This guy's funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they're definitely not laughing, you know, in an awkward, you know, you just, you figured it out.
Marc:It's beautiful to see.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Guest:Yeah, hell yeah.
Marc:So, like, now I'm curious about, like, what comes through that speaker at the drive-thru.
Guest:Look, I just Wikipedia'd and it says that Spider-Man was never a clone.
Guest:That's what you gave me.
Guest:Oh, sorry, what'd you say?
Guest:How could that be the most degrading thing, the drive-through speaker?
Guest:Because the way that people... First of all, even when you're polite, you're yelling at it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, do you want me to go into the workings of all of it?
Guest:Well, no, I know there's a speaker.
Guest:You lean out your window and go, yeah, could I have a... But here's what you don't know.
Guest:When the car pulls up to that window...
Guest:so that the employee knows that they're there, it goes, like really loudly.
Guest:So you're already off on a bad start.
Guest:You're like a fucking, it's a Skinnerian box.
Guest:Yeah, and I would have to lift the headset from my ear because it was that, it would ring.
Guest:So every time, like a conditioned response, like, eh.
Guest:And you're dealing with hundreds of those a day.
Guest:Because you're wearing the headset.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you're literally a rat in a cage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you've got to go be yelled at.
Guest:And you're taking orders.
Guest:You're having to.
Guest:This is sad.
Guest:They also make you.
Guest:You're putting the Happy Meals together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the little cardboard boxes.
Guest:You're assembling them.
Guest:And you're putting the toys and the cookies in.
Guest:It's like all this fun stuff for kids while people are yelling at you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So here, for someone who still might have a childhood, and you're stacking them up, and you're always, like, whenever you're not working, you have to do dishes.
Guest:You know, there's all this other stuff that they make you do while you're taking people's orders.
Guest:So I could be cleaning a bathroom, and then I hear that, and I have to rush.
Guest:Like, if it's slower.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and so, and that's where I wrote my first jokes while taking people's orders.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, after the manual typewriter thing, but when I was like really, yeah.
Guest:Like the first great joke, you know, that I wrote that I still use the whole, I came from a long line of alcoholics.
Guest:My family tree has a car wrapped around it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was because I saw a dude with a beer bottle between his legs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just hope that he die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's a drunk driver.
Guest:And I wrote that.
Guest:That was like four or five months in.
Guest:But yeah, so the way that people yell at you, the smell, you can't clean it off.
Guest:You will always smell like French fries as long as you work there.
Guest:And yeah, the way that people yell at you is that
Guest:you know hello and then they're often gruff they're very no one says thank you yeah you know or please yeah it's just this really humiliating when you when you work there you sign a thing uh you know like not a contract but you know like in terms of agreement type thing and one of the things that you're not ever allowed to accept tips as if anyone would anyway but they just did that extra crush you know
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:If you dared to believe.
Guest:I could see how that could be nightmare-inducing.
Guest:Yeah, and just the way people... You feel like a whore.
Guest:They just stick the money in your face.
Guest:Because you'll be taking another order.
Guest:Here, here.
Guest:That kind of stuff.
Marc:It's just a complete... And I think I'm guilty of that, too, where they don't even acknowledge you as a person.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're just this...
Marc:You're nothing.
Guest:And I would work from 6 to 2, so I would wake up.
Guest:The one thing that I always had was I made sure that I would show up at least five minutes late, and that was my way of saying, you don't own me.
Marc:That was your protest.
Guest:Yeah, and it felt so good.
Guest:Every day, it's late.
Guest:Yeah, fuck you.
Guest:You can't fire me.
Guest:Yeah, you need me.
Guest:No one gets fired there.
Guest:You need me.
Guest:And then, so there's that, the way that you're treated by the customers, but then there's also the rotating nature of it.
Guest:So anytime you got close to someone or befriended them, they would leave.
Guest:Being there seven years.
Marc:This is the saddest thing I ever heard.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's really depressing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I knew a woman there who was 30 years old and her 15-year-old daughter also worked there and the 15-year-old was pregnant.
Guest:yeah there was always a pregnant person there was never not a pregnant person and he saw all these people come and go yeah just wives passing through this weird automation yeah like there'd be a dude I remember this one guy's like oh I love comic books left the next week you know you just it felt like he was like Quasimodo just ringing the fucking bells every day did anyone ever come back and go you're still here
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I had teachers and guidance counselors in the drive-thru, and they would just look at me and be like, hmm.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:This is like you sort of volunteered for this public humiliation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It fucked up my skin.
Guest:I had bad acne.
Guest:It's just like the worst.
Guest:Well, does it make your victory any more sweet?
Guest:It does.
Guest:Well, it also, you know, it's, yeah, I mean, it's the most humbling thing ever.
Guest:But then imagine, you know, all this stuff that I just told you.
Guest:Imagine me doing that in an ABC casting meeting.
Guest:And it just, like, there's no lighting, but it somehow gets dimmer and, you know.
Marc:So you're telling that story all around town?
Guest:Well, because they asked.
Guest:They're like, tell me your story.
Guest:And I'm like, okay.
Marc:So you're still doing it.
Marc:Fuck them.
Marc:Well, here's what I can offer you here at the end.
Marc:Do you want a ride?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Thanks for talking, man.
Marc:That is it.
Marc:Mike Lawrence.
Marc:Lovely man.
Marc:Honest man.
Marc:Very funny guy.
Marc:The real deal.
Marc:He lives for comedy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:What do we got to say?
Marc:Enjoy your weekend.
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