Episode 332 - Shelley Berman
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuckleberries?
Marc:What the fuckleberry thins?
Marc:How's that?
Marc:What the fuck nots?
Marc:Nuts.
Marc:Y'all, the list never ends.
Marc:I may compile it all.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:This is Marc Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Fine, thank you for asking.
Marc:You know, I just got done watching a murder show because, as some of you know, I don't think I've talked about it in a little while.
Marc:My girlfriend Jessica enjoys the murder shows.
Marc:They're constantly on in the house.
Marc:See, there's a short menu.
Marc:It's either a murder show or a Big Bang Theory or Gilmore Girls, occasionally Friends.
Marc:But the murder show theme weaves in and out.
Marc:I personally wish that somebody would murder all those other shows and then we just try to figure out who did it.
Marc:But today, I got sucked in.
Marc:I got sucked into the murder show.
Marc:Some guy's wife got killed by somebody, and I kind of figured it out.
Marc:And as happens when I watch a murder show, and Jessica's sitting right there, I say, are you going to murder me?
Marc:Is that what's happening?
Marc:She says, no, if anything, these shows show me that you can't get away with it.
Marc:She thinks that perhaps with poison, she could get away with it.
Marc:But my point is that when I watch them, she says this is a lesson so you don't do it.
Marc:And every time I watch it, I think like, well, maybe I could pull this off.
Marc:So maybe she should be nervous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How about that?
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:I don't have the stomach for it.
Marc:This monologue has gotten away from me already.
Marc:It's just gotten away from me.
Marc:She's sitting right here.
Marc:She's sitting right here.
Marc:Oh, did I mention Shelly Berman is on the show today?
Marc:It's an important show in some ways, and I'll get to that in a minute.
Marc:Shelly Berman, one of the great stand-up comics that few people know, at least of my generation.
Marc:Look, folks, here's the deal.
Marc:There's still no Boomy.
Marc:I had a dream about Boomer last night that he showed up.
Marc:He didn't look well.
Marc:He's missing an ear.
Marc:But he has not come, but in our hearts and in our minds, we know that Bumi lives in us all.
Marc:All right, this is the church of Bumi.
Marc:Also, as I told you the last time I spoke to you, Monkey's tooth fell out.
Marc:Just was sitting there on a chair, his fucking tooth with part of his head on it, which turned out to be the root I took Monkey in.
Marc:And Monkey likes to, like, I thought we were going to get through the tunnel, man.
Marc:Monkey, I get him in a cage.
Marc:I got one shot with that thing.
Marc:I got to open the cage.
Marc:I got to put it in the house.
Marc:It's got to be there for a couple days.
Marc:And I got to just focus and just Tom Cruise that shit.
Marc:Just sort of zero in.
Marc:Boom.
Marc:It's got to happen quick.
Marc:One swift action.
Marc:Anything goes wrong.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:You got to scrap that mission.
Marc:for another time but i got him in i got him to the vet which is under construction over there and i thought we were going to get through it i thought he wasn't going to shit in the cage we're piss in the cage we'd made it all the way to the vet no shit no piss in the cage we get into the vet i get him on the table of the vet i open the cage and i go how you doing monkey and he just takes a dump right in the cage
Marc:And then I cleaned it up.
Marc:He didn't mess with it.
Marc:And then the doc comes in and says, well, he's got infected gums.
Marc:This happens.
Marc:You should have his teeth cleaned.
Marc:He's probably going to lose the other one.
Marc:And if you don't get him back in here to get him cleaned and maybe remove another tooth, it might spread.
Marc:So now that's where monkey's at.
Marc:And then, you know, they're telling me what they need to do, which is give him a shot of antibiotics.
Marc:And they want me to sign off on it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:I just shit my cage.
Marc:Just coffee.coop.com.
Marc:Look, here's the deal about vets.
Marc:And this is always what makes me like nervous because, all right, so he needs to get the shot.
Marc:So then they going back and then the woman comes out to tell me how much it's going to cost, yada, yada.
Marc:And then she says, look, he just pissed all over himself.
Marc:And I'm like, did you give him the shot?
Marc:And they're like, they're trying to give him the shot.
Marc:I'm like, well, give him the shot.
Marc:He's like, well, do you want us to give him a bath?
Marc:I'm like, how the fuck are you going to give that cat a bath?
Marc:If you can't even give him a shot.
Marc:And they're like, well, we'll put him down.
Marc:She's like, it's 20 bucks for the bath.
Marc:I'm like, that's all right.
Marc:It's 50 bucks to put him down to take a bath.
Marc:That's $70 to anesthetize my cat to clean him.
Marc:And I said, well, aren't cats self-cleaning?
Marc:I mean, how bad did he pee on himself?
Marc:Did you wipe the cage out?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'll take him home.
Marc:He'll be all right.
Marc:70 bucks to knock my cat out and give it a bath.
Marc:That, my friends, is a racket.
Marc:That, you know.
Marc:Monkey's okay.
Marc:I got to figure out when to bring him in.
Marc:I'm going into my last week of shooting of the show tentatively called Marin.
Marc:for IFC, and I want to report, as I was wary to report because I'm an insecure, neurotic fuck, it's going very well.
Marc:I said it.
Marc:I said it out loud.
Marc:There's only so much I can tell you, and it's my own decision.
Marc:No one's telling me not to tell you things.
Marc:I just think it would be better for all of us, since the show is not going to be on until June, that I stay a little cagey about it.
Marc:I watched a past...
Marc:Of the first two episodes, after we got network notes and studio notes, and we all chipped in and chipped away, and they look great.
Marc:I'm happy with them.
Marc:I've had the pleasure to work on the show with many people I respect a great deal.
Marc:And it's going well.
Marc:And I will say there's been some guest stars.
Marc:I'm not going to tell you who play themselves as podcast guests, but I will tell you that Gina Gershon was on the show.
Marc:Eric Stoltz was on the show.
Marc:Sally Kellerman also makes an appearance.
Marc:Judd Hirsch plays my father.
Marc:And there's some other people, too.
Marc:I'm just not going to get into it.
Marc:It's very exciting.
Marc:But as I said, we've got a long ramp up to this, folks.
Marc:So I'm not going to get into it till we get closer.
Marc:God willing, I'm still alive.
Marc:Have all my limbs and no brain damage.
Marc:Perhaps my relationship will survive that time between now and when the show goes up.
Marc:I needed to stay intact because I need to write a second season, hopefully.
Marc:But I don't know, she might kill me.
Marc:Or I may kill her.
Marc:That would be the way the murder show start.
Marc:He was a relatively successful stand-up comedian.
Marc:Not necessarily well-liked, but respected by many, and seemed to be turning a corner in his life.
Marc:She had moved down from Burlingame to do other things, not him.
Marc:They ended up together, and they both ended up dead.
Marc:Maybe we kill each other at the same time.
Marc:I'm sorry, she's still here not talking.
Marc:I feel like I'm cheating you, the listener.
Marc:She's just looking at me.
Marc:I'm looking for laughs.
Marc:I'm looking for moments where she's like, no, don't say that.
Marc:I'm sorry I'm depriving you of the other side of this conversation.
Marc:But she will not get on mic.
Marc:Shelly Berman.
Marc:Now, look, Shelley Berman was an important guy.
Marc:He was a he was a comedian in the 60s.
Marc:He was you know, he was he comes out of Chicago, but he's important in that he he was the first one of the first comics.
Marc:He had three gold records.
Marc:He was the first comedian to sell out Carnegie Hall.
Marc:He was the biggest comedian in the country, and he was a unique comedian.
Marc:I had not heard about him until later in life when I stumbled upon one of his records.
Marc:I'd heard his name in passing, but he was not one of the guys that I was really in tuned with.
Marc:He was not... And I'm not a Mort Sahl fan, but he was not Lenny Bruce.
Marc:He was not Jonathan Winters.
Marc:He was not Bob Newhart, which you'll hear he's got a beef about that.
Marc:But...
Marc:He was not Jackie Vernon, but he hacked Tom Rickles.
Marc:He was just not in my rotation, and I'd always heard his name here and there.
Marc:But then I finally came upon one of his records, and I was like, this guy's sitting down.
Marc:It had an impact on me.
Marc:He was sitting down on the cover, sitting down doing stand-up, which I like, which I do.
Marc:Maybe I can attribute that to Shelley Berman.
Marc:But the first album I got, I listened to a piece called The Department Store.
Marc:I believe that was on Inside Shelley Berman.
Marc:I picked it up secondhand somewhere.
Marc:And let me try to capture.
Marc:When I saw the cover, I immediately related to this guy.
Marc:As I said, he was sitting down.
Marc:And I'd never heard of him.
Marc:And I didn't know what he did.
Marc:And I put on this record.
Marc:And I heard the department store.
Marc:And I was like, oh, my God.
Marc:It's the beginning.
Marc:It's one bit.
Marc:It's like six minutes long.
Marc:Some of its bits are 10 minutes long.
Marc:And it's one story with many beats.
Marc:And he used the phone as a device, which I'll talk to him about.
Marc:But...
Marc:But I thought that maybe to put Shelley Berman in context for you, I would like to play this bit for you.
Marc:Now, I will tell you this before we listen to this piece, that I was very respectful in talking to him.
Marc:I was a little nervous.
Marc:I get a little nervous when I'm talking to older people.
Marc:And also, I didn't want to upset him because I know he's sort of volatile at times.
Marc:I think what I wanted to get at when I talked to Shelley Berman was that you don't know
Marc:And I'm not sure I did, but I think I did retroactively.
Marc:I realized that you don't really know where a career is going to end up.
Marc:You don't know how your life is going to unfold.
Marc:Even when you're at the top of your game, you don't know how things are going to go after that or whether your expectations are going to be met, but you survive somehow.
Marc:And I think after I left Shelley Berman's house, I realized this didn't go the way he wanted it to.
Marc:But the reason why I wanted to talk to him is he's one of these guys that I don't think gets the respect he deserves, that people don't know who he was.
Marc:And he was obviously a very important comic.
Marc:And just to sort of talk to him about how his career unfolded.
Marc:And I will do that.
Marc:But first, what I want to play for you now is The Department Store from Inside Shelley Berman released in 1959.
Guest:Anyway, after a particularly terrible experience in New York in dealing with a department store, I wrote this particular piece of material.
Guest:While the bit is rather extended, a little elaborate, I think you'll get the point I'm trying to make of the difficulty you may encounter in phoning a department store.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Oh, hello, a nickel's department store.
Guest:See, I... All right.
Guest:Oh, yes, I'm... All right, okay, I'll wait.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Emergency, emergency.
Guest:Hang on there for just a second.
Guest:This is an emergency, and I'll let you go in just a second.
Guest:See, here's the thing.
Guest:See, you don't know me.
Guest:I work in the office building right across the street from your store, and I was... No, the Southwest.
Guest:And I was just sitting.
Guest:I was looking out of my window, and I noticed there's a woman hanging from a window ledge on your building about 10 flights up.
Guest:And she said, no, operator, you're missing the point.
Guest:I don't wish to speak to the woman.
Guest:No, I... You know, I'd like somebody to go up there and pull her in.
Guest:Well, I don't care who, you know, how about you?
Guest:You're over there.
Guest:What about yourself?
Guest:Oh, what time is your coffee break?
Guest:Well, I don't think she can wait till then.
Guest:You know, who knows how long she'd been hanging there before I noticed her.
Guest:I can see her from here and her knuckles are very white.
Guest:The woman's been hanging there for hours, obviously, and I'm afraid she'll slip, you know, before your break comes.
Guest:I say, well, do you think that department could help?
Guest:All right, would you connect me, please?
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Hello, complaint department.
Guest:Say, I... You don't know me.
Guest:I work in the office building right across the street from your store.
Guest:No, the Southwest.
Guest:And I was just sitting and looking out of my window.
Guest:Oh, pretty nice out.
Guest:And I noticed there's a...
Guest:There's a woman hanging from a window ledge on your store about ten flights up.
Guest:She's about to fall down unless we get... Hello there.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:Oh, hello, madam.
Guest:Listen, what happened to the man I was just talking to?
Guest:Oh, put a cold towel behind his neck.
Guest:That'll bring him out of it.
Guest:It's my fault.
Guest:I scared him.
Guest:See, here's the thing.
Guest:See, you don't know me.
Guest:I work in the office building...
Guest:right across straight from your store, Southwest, and I... And, see, I was just looking out of my window, and, no, it's pretty nice out, and I... There's a woman hanging from a window ledge on your building.
Guest:She's gonna fall down from there if we don't describe her what for.
Guest:Well, you can't have any trouble finding her.
Guest:She's hanging out of a window over there.
Guest:Lady, I'm looking at the building right now.
Guest:She's the only one hanging out of a window.
Guest:Well, I hate to take the time.
Guest:Well, okay, gray hair, and she's a little chunky, and she's holding some packages between her legs, and...
Guest:Well, I can't tell from here if your store label is on the packaging, madam.
Guest:The woman's across the street.
Guest:Well, what about the department on that floor?
Guest:Somebody open a window and pull her in.
Guest:It's a simple... Well, would you connect me, please?
Guest:Thank you.
Thank you.
Guest:Hello, lingerie.
Guest:Listen, you don't know me.
Guest:I work in the office building right across the street from your store.
Guest:And I was just sitting and looking out.
Guest:Don't you want to know the corner, madam?
Guest:It's the southwest.
Guest:And see, I was just sitting and looking out of my window, and it's a lovely day, and there's a woman.
Guest:There's a woman hanging from a window ledge, and it looks to be on your floor, and I was just hoping that... I don't know how she got out there, lady.
Guest:I've been sitting here looking at your building.
Guest:It's a lingerie.
Guest:Maybe she tried on something and snapped out.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Well, she's gonna fall off unless we pull her in.
Guest:I just talked to that department, madam.
Guest:Well, okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Hello, complaint department, it's me again.
Guest:How are you feeling now, sir?
Guest:Now, sir, you've got to get a hold of yourself and go up there and pull that poor woman in, and she's gonna fall down from there if we... All right, you go up there, fine, and I'll just talk to her through this window and cheer her on as you go up.
Guest:Lady, lady right over here across the street.
Guest:Now, a little to lower, to the right, here.
Guest:Fine, thank you.
Guest:Don't wave, madam, don't wave.
Guest:Hang on with both hands.
Guest:Listen, I'm getting some help for you.
Guest:The man will be there in a minute.
Guest:He'll pull you in.
Guest:Listen, I think it'll be easier for you to hang out if you let those packages go from between your legs.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:You're getting new ones.
Guest:Let them go.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:There they go.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Oh, poor fellow.
Guest:All right, now.
Guest:Madam?
Guest:Madam, the umbrella over your arm.
Guest:If you should slip, we don't know how much help this will be, but open it.
Guest:It may slow your fall.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's only bad luck of your inside, lady.
Guest:Take a chance.
Guest:There's the man.
Guest:Reach up.
Guest:Slowly.
Guest:Leg.
Guest:Leg.
Guest:Other leg.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:Hello, operator.
Guest:Say, would you send somebody up to the 10th floor?
Guest:The complaint department man is hanging from a window ledge out there.
Marc:Isn't that a beautiful bit?
Marc:Is it not a beautiful bit?
Marc:Don't you like his cadence?
Marc:That's something you don't hear anymore.
Marc:Also, on the topic of Shelley Berman, Lenny Bruce discussed Shelley Berman in one of his bits, and I will talk to Shelley Berman about that and also play you the Lenny Bruce bit a little later in the show.
Marc:Let's now go to Shelley Berman's house.
Marc:It was a very modest house in a very odd place, part of L.A.
Marc:I get very nervous when I talk to these older gentlemen, but I hope you enjoy this conversation with Shelley Berman.
Marc:Where'd the fascination with knives begin?
Marc:Because there's a million things to collect.
Guest:When I was a little boy.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Pocket knife?
Guest:I had a high, what they call a high boot or high shoe that had a little pocket in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I always had a little pocket knife in there.
Guest:So these are all handmade pocket knives?
Guest:Not pocket, no.
Guest:Very few pocket knives.
Guest:There are some pocket knives on through here.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then there are other, many different knives, many different.
Guest:That's an interesting hobby.
Guest:Now, you think you can hold that thing?
Guest:You want me to hold my own, then?
Marc:Yeah, I figure a lot of times with comics that they're used to holding the mics.
Guest:I think that's stupid.
Guest:I see them walk out on the stage, grab the mic, and then start walking back and forth with that mic, with that thing.
Guest:But it's the style.
Guest:It's what we do.
Guest:Well, it ain't what I do.
Guest:And it never has been.
Guest:I never tried to be different.
Guest:I just never thought it was reasonable to walk around and just get your jokes in.
Guest:It's crap.
Marc:I, I, well, you know, I'll be honest with you.
Marc:I got a copy of, uh, I have all four of the first, your first four albums.
Marc:I've got inside Shelley Berman in the car.
Marc:I didn't want to bring it in because I want you to sign it for me.
Marc:I thought that would be inappropriate until after we talk.
Marc:Well, I'm fine.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And, uh, you know, I've been doing comedy about 20 some odd years to medium success and,
Marc:And when I first heard your album, I'm 48 now.
Marc:When I heard the department store, The Woman Hanging from the Window, when I first heard that, I mean, that was fairly recent for me because I'm coming to it as a different generation.
Marc:But it really changed the way I looked at comedy.
Marc:And it changed my idea of what you could do with comedy because I'd never really heard somebody so deliberately paced and comfortable and telling a thorough and long story to consistent laughter.
Marc:And it was a mind-blowing thing for me.
Marc:And that was a decision you made to sit down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was a sit-down comic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Hannah Youngman was the stand-up comic.
Marc:But do you separate yourself in your mind from those guys who did jokes, even of your generation?
Guest:No.
Guest:I never thought about it.
Guest:I don't separate myself from it.
Guest:It's just my way came about.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And it worked for the audiences and worked for me.
Guest:And so that was it.
Guest:But I varied my techniques because sometimes I did other things.
Guest:It wasn't always a phone call.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Marc:The one bit that I listened to actually yesterday, because I'm trying to figure out I'm very interested in the history of the thing, of stand-up, is that you hear about the Jewish community in New York a lot.
Marc:but when on the on the second album i think uh outside shelly burman the conversation with your father which takes up an entire side of the album is spectacular and and i wanted to know like your childhood yeah how much of that was true did he own a delicatessen well yeah no no no no he didn't own a delicatessen yeah um
Guest:I gave him that.
Guest:He was a hard-working man, but he didn't own a thing.
Guest:To him, it was a son going nuts and inviting being a gay boy.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:He was afraid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you wanted to be an actor.
Guest:I wanted to be an actor.
Guest:I wanted to go to acting school.
Guest:And he did not understand that one bit.
Guest:But as you can see in that piece, somehow...
Guest:He got around, because of his love for me, he got around to doing what he had to do.
Guest:Well, he, in fact, is part of it.
Guest:I'm talking about mostly my family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I couldn't put my family on a telephone.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And my family did have some of those quirks.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:All of them had the quirks.
Marc:Did they speak Yiddish in the house?
Guest:My first language.
Guest:It is.
Guest:My first language was Yiddish.
Marc:And where did your family come from originally?
Guest:Well, it isn't that they all came from one place.
Guest:No, sir.
Guest:No.
Guest:my grandparents came from uh from europe yeah my grandparents came from russia from minsk that was on my mother's side and uh they were the people with whom we lived this was our family so it was a two-family house you your your mother and father and you and your grandparents you had siblings too never had a house we had we had a flat right
Guest:they well if i picture what i had it's my father yeah so i and i gave him a dialect which he didn't have but because the rest of the family had a dialect and the rest of the city at least where we lived in chicago the west side of chicago
Guest:If I heard somebody without a Jewish accent, I knew he wasn't an American.
Guest:That's the way it was.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But it was a fictional family.
Marc:Well, when you do the dialects, and certainly you were able to, I think they used to call it people a stage.
Marc:You were one guy doing many characters in some of your bits.
Marc:Now, coming into comedy as an actor, I mean, when you started acting,
Marc:because i know that you were involved in chicago i know second city started there but you were before that it was before we were compass players and that's where you you started to come into your own as a performer that was it but we had a group yeah we did improvisational theater who was in that group anyone i would know
Guest:Well, Mike Nichols, Elaine May.
Guest:I know them.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And there were many others.
Guest:Severin Darden.
Guest:There were other people in that group.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:Hmm?
Guest:How old were you then?
Guest:20s?
Guest:You hit me with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have to think it over.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because I was suffering because I couldn't find an acting job.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But you'd done a little theater before.
Guest:By that time, I was married.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I had studied at the Goodman Theater...
Guest:of the art institute of chicago i that's where i had studied the theater yeah and i knew the theater yeah and i had developed uh speech it was very good mary agnes doyle taught me how to speak the language and
Guest:By the time I was there.
Guest:At the Compass.
Guest:At the Compass Players, I was going on 31.
Guest:I was scared to death that nothing's ever going to happen to my life.
Guest:Because you got a wife and you had, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:yeah we we didn't have children yeah but just it was the marriage was rather new at that time that's a lot of panic i know that feeling yeah well i was getting older yeah and my god i was scared to death
Guest:Now, she was working to save my ass.
Guest:She was working, and she stayed in New York when I went to Chicago.
Guest:Your wife did, because you were trying to get acting work in New York.
Guest:I had been.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had been, but forget it.
Guest:I couldn't do anything right.
Guest:But eventually I was getting little parts and stock companies, and I was beginning to be proud of what I was doing.
Guest:Because this was a cast, and I was a member of the cast, and often I was...
Guest:I was singled out, and I was one of the better people in our company.
Guest:Because you were funny?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I didn't write the plays we were in.
Guest:What were you usually cast as?
Guest:Were you cast as a comedic part, or it didn't matter?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I didn't have comedy.
Guest:As a matter of fact, I never dreamed of it.
Guest:When I got to Chicago finally and joined the Compass Players, then I began to see myself as being funny.
Marc:Through improvisation?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what were the structures of the improv?
Marc:Because I know a little bit about Second City, but how did that evolve?
Marc:You had a group, and what were the shows like?
Marc:You weren't doing scripted material?
Guest:No, we didn't.
Guest:It was after the way we worked is Paul Sills, the director, would come in and give us, say, here's our subject and everybody's got to come in with something.
Guest:You want to get a certain job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:All right.
So.
Guest:So all of us would come in with the idea and we would do it a show.
Guest:But part of our show was to have the audience suggest what they'd want to see.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I recall once it was New Year's Eve and somebody shouted the morning after the night before.
Guest:Well, I went to Elaine May and I said, I've got an idea that we, you know, I'm your husband.
Guest:We went to a party last night and I caused an insanity.
Guest:I just did very bad.
Guest:She said, fine, it's not a good idea, but I'm doing a thing with Mike Nichols.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So, but I couldn't give that up.
Guest:You thought it was good.
Guest:How can I do an act...
Guest:That I have an idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How can I do it if I don't have a way?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's someone to work off of.
Guest:That's correct.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I put that someone out of my reach and I called him on the phone.
Guest:And the audience just absolutely went crazy.
Guest:It worked.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:I worked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it began with the worst hangover ever.
Guest:My first few lines, oh, God, God, God.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, God, God, God.
Guest:Oh, come on, God, give me a break.
Guest:Wait a minute.
Come on.
Guest:that's on the second record that well i don't remember all of that yeah i am not going to give in to um doing this for you right now i'm not going to do that sure uh that's fine i mean i never did a second record all i did was one day there was a second record yeah i uh and
Guest:I never made a record, frankly.
Guest:None of these were records.
Guest:When my friend told me I should get a recording...
Guest:Oh, and incidentally, this guy is somebody that nobody really cares about anyway, and he suggested, oh, his name was Mort Sahl.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is Mort Sahl.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And he was a buddy, and he said, you should make a recording.
Guest:I said, if I make a recording, for God's sakes, everybody will know my act.
Right.
Guest:He said, well, you'll see, it'll work for you.
Guest:Because he said, I made a record and it's working and it might be good for you.
Marc:Are you guys still friends?
Marc:Yeah, we were friends.
Marc:You still are?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, I see him sometimes.
Marc:I've gone up there and he hangs out at the Throckmorton Theater.
Marc:Yeah, Mill Valley.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You guys are pretty sharp.
Marc:He's still sharp.
Guest:Well, it's wonderful, wonderful, because my memories of him are all beautiful.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I get to see him now and then.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that when you first figured out improvisationally the device to utilize the telephone.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:you know as a delivery system that sort of freed you to be a solo the only thing yeah i i didn't borrow the idea from anybody because i had heard uh people use the phone but it wasn't a technique that i was interested in i wasn't i didn't hello mama i didn't
Guest:Okay, you can get your one laugh or your two big laughs.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But that's not what I'm thinking of.
Guest:I'm thinking of doing a real live phone call.
Guest:And I'll create that other individual.
Marc:So when you did that improvisation...
Guest:what what started the movement towards just being a solo act what when did you move away from the compass player well well when uh i after i did a few of these shows yeah i began to feel i might be able to do this and
Guest:Guess what?
Guest:There was a nightclub in Chicago on Rush Street, and it was called Mr. Kelly's.
Guest:And somebody told me there was a great comedian that I should go see him.
Guest:He's over there in...
Guest:We're going back in years now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went to see this comedian.
Guest:But every comedian I'd ever seen, and I had seen a few, it was set up, punchline.
Guest:Set up, punchline.
Guest:And that's the way they worked.
Guest:And they were beautiful.
Guest:Henny Younglin just knocked me out for something.
Guest:Set up, punchline.
Guest:Set up, punchline.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Good.
Guest:I go to see this guy.
Guest:He doesn't have set up punchline.
Guest:He just talks about our society, about our politics.
Guest:He talks about that, that I'm looking at him.
Guest:And this is the first time I saw, more so.
Guest:It was the first time I'd seen him.
Guest:And so that kind of blew you away?
Guest:It more than blew me away.
Guest:I thought, wow.
Guest:he doesn't do the way it should be.
Guest:He said it.
Guest:He knows where he's going.
Guest:He knows the points he's going to go to.
Guest:But nothing is written.
Guest:And he knows where he's going to go to.
Guest:And I think this is a kind of improv.
Guest:And I talked to him a little bit.
Guest:He suggested to me that maybe I could get into a nightclub like this, like Mr. Killius, but, you know, have to find a way in.
Guest:You have to have an audition or something like that.
Guest:Well, you couldn't get an audition at this because, I mean, the most wonderful stars, Ella Fitzgerald was working over there, and Henny Youngman worked over there.
Guest:I mean, this was the room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:mr kelly's but i got an audition because mort saw this is the first time he helped me this is the late 50s right 56 late 56 with was 57 was my first actual comedy job okay so what was the audition the morning after the night before yeah i
Guest:Then I had also, I had tried to do something where I can work it by myself.
Guest:I can talk about myself.
Guest:And one of the things I came up with was embarrassing moments.
Guest:Little embarrassing things that we've done.
Guest:and uh this all wound up with the thing on popcorn yeah where i where eventually i get oh yeah yeah yeah but and that was with the group and you did those solo and the audition went well yes so i could address the audience and
Guest:uh with the improv uh and i speak to them and then i could do uh a routine which is morning after and i got the job i got the job and this was my first nightclub job yeah imagine who i was following
Guest:Imagine who was there.
Guest:Yeah, Ella Fitzgerald, Mortzal.
Guest:Yeah, Anita O'Day.
Guest:She was a jazz singer.
Guest:Anita O'Day, I worshipped her.
Guest:But things went...
Guest:okay because I did the job well and the people came to see me now I was developing other things and I was trying to think of another phone call I could make because I was very good at this and I created another phone call and it was I found that there are places in the world that have no special authority
Guest:You don't know who to talk to.
Guest:You don't know who is going to do anything.
Guest:And you just call up, maybe, and something urgent.
Guest:And you may call up and find out that you're talking to the wrong person and what's happening.
Marc:It's even worse now because you could be talking to someone in another country.
Guest:Yes, that's correct.
Guest:But not then.
Guest:Then you didn't have to call India.
Marc:So that was the evolution of the woman hanging from the window bit.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you just improvised that.
Marc:You had an idea.
Marc:The way you wrote at that time was you had an idea, you knew where you wanted to go, and then you just sort of did it in the moment.
Guest:That proved to me that I wasn't an accident.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now I'm getting other nightclub jobs.
Right.
Marc:Do these things become, you know the beats as you evolve it on stage, they become bits, right?
Guest:They become things that I do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They're my routine.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I call them routines.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Somebody says you're doing shtick, which is Jewish for peace.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what the hell to call these things.
Guest:All I'm doing is routines.
Guest:Right.
Right.
Marc:But you guys defined a new way of doing comedy.
Marc:I mean, you're aware of that, right?
Guest:Well, nobody was doing what I was doing.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:And the technique that I was using, a very special technique that couldn't really be imitated.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It could be stolen.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it was.
Guest:The phone thing.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Who do you think stole it from you?
Guest:You know.
Guest:you know yeah you know i was coming to work one night and a guy stopped his car passed me by hey shelly there's a guy stole your act so i didn't know what that was and then when i finally saw newhart i was just devastated because he he had it down and
Guest:He had a down to a crack.
Marc:And he copped to it.
Marc:He said that he did that and he had no shame for that.
Marc:None.
Marc:Why was that okay, do you think, for somebody in his mind?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Why was that okay in his mind, do you think?
Marc:Because I know there were comics before you where everybody did the same joke and no one seemed to give a shit, but at the time you were doing something original, that should have been cleared.
Guest:do you think that he did it maliciously no my god maliciously he wouldn't do it malicious that nobody does that but he did it to make a living and he became a star yeah it worked for him did you do you guys still is there still bad blood was there was there ever bad blood i don't know was there
Guest:No, you can't make assumptions like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I know that if I've had my experience with people taking something from me, I have a hard time forgiving them.
Guest:Well, I didn't forgive.
Guest:I thought it was a rotten thing to do.
Guest:He made it... I thought the agents who sold him, I thought they were just as guilty as everybody else.
Guest:And...
Guest:But my God, to go into a town and do my show and a critic saying that I borrowed some stuff from Newhart.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is that you made four or five.
Marc:The first four records were huge.
Marc:I mean, you were a big star.
Marc:I mean, you were an important comic.
Marc:I mean, you were of the same generation.
Marc:But, I mean, you had your own career.
Marc:Do you feel like he... Well, but it was tipping.
Guest:It was tipping.
Guest:After all, if people could get another comedian and he's there...
Guest:Oh, who the hell cares?
Marc:When you did, but you were the first comic to win a Grammy for a comedy record, correct?
Marc:That's correct.
Marc:And, you know, your at least three-year records were gold records.
Marc:I mean, you were huge.
Marc:But there was still that, there was still a certain point where, you know, that was unforgivable.
Guest:To me, it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To me, it was.
Guest:To the audience.
Guest:They don't know better.
Guest:No, of course not.
Marc:Now, at the time you were working, I know there's a famous bit, and I don't know what your relationship was, but I know there's a bit that Lenny Bruce did referring to you having an episode with some mafia guys.
Guest:Yeah, well...
Guest:I had a good time with Lenny.
Guest:I loved Lenny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we talked whenever we got a chance.
Guest:We were friendly, very friendly.
Marc:And did you... See, it's hard for me to imagine because, you know, when I came up, you know, I know the guys that I came up with, but, you know, you were buddies with Mortsall.
Marc:Mortsall changed the way you saw comedy.
Marc:And Lenny Bruce and Mortsall were very different.
Marc:But I think Lenny Bruce... We were...
Guest:We were of a time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The three of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we were friendly.
Marc:And when you saw Lenny Bruce, what was it like the first time you saw him work?
Marc:Laughing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:He was hysterical.
Guest:And he had the guts to use words, a few words that we don't use.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But now, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was something else, huh?
Guest:No.
Guest:I loved him.
Marc:yeah and when it when you guys like i just wonder because i i have friends who are comics that you know you know they're going down a bad way with the drugs and everything else was there concern did you you know was there ever that feeling where you're like lenny maybe you should slow down we knew we knew and wished it wasn't and uh
Guest:but it wasn't something that I would talk to him about.
Guest:It was... I'd stay out of it.
Guest:It's his life.
Guest:I stayed out of it.
Guest:And he was damn good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he would just go for hours, huh?
Guest:Yeah, and he could... And when he did me, when he did his thing on me, I was so flattered.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:And I recall the truth.
Guest:What was the event?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I've got...
Guest:A big table.
Guest:I can't remember where I was now, what city I was.
Marc:Was he in the room?
Guest:Lenny?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think maybe he might be.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Anyway, there's a table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Big table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And one guy is laughing at everything I do.
Guest:He's laughing and laughing, and he's the loudest laugher at that entire table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm figuring, well, he's tossing this audience around because he's doing all the laughing.
Guest:Throwing the balance off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I'm now picking on him.
Guest:I'm telling the audience, well, this guy, you know, and I'm really picking on him something good.
Guest:I'm getting a little bit less, but not much, not as much as, but I want him to know that he is out of line.
Guest:Yeah, for laughing.
Guest:Okay, yeah, for laughing.
Guest:Now my show's over.
Guest:The boy says, you go out there and immediately, you go out there and apologize.
Guest:So wait a minute.
Guest:I've never been told what to do that.
Guest:There's a guy out there, a pain in the ass guy, said you go out there and you apologize.
Guest:Because, I'll tell you, you want to be ready to work tomorrow?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Maybe you won't be able to work tomorrow.
Guest:What?
Guest:Now, I still didn't get it.
Marc:You didn't put it together?
Guest:So I go out, and there's a group of people sitting at that one table.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he's the guy, the Don at the end.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I want to, you know...
Guest:I want to apologize.
Guest:Over here, over here.
Guest:All right, so I go over to him.
Guest:I want to apologize for picking on you up there.
Guest:You're going to apologize for what you did?
Guest:You think you're just going to apologize for what you did?
Guest:Do you know something tomorrow?
Guest:Tomorrow?
Guest:Do you think you'll be here tomorrow?
Guest:He said that to you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Were you scared?
Guest:Then I got scared.
Guest:Who was it?
Guest:It was Adan.
Guest:I can't remember his name.
Guest:It was a big guy.
Guest:Oh, he was big.
Yeah.
Guest:He was big.
Guest:And when you apologized, he still played you a little bit.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you finally said, all right.
Guest:All right, kid.
Guest:You're all right.
Guest:And that was it.
Yeah.
Guest:I realized I'll be here tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, Shelley Berman has only worked the east side.
Guest:Not Hester Street or Broome Street.
Guest:But he's worked got blue angel with the illiterate erudite audience.
Guest:So he don't know.
Guest:These guys are silly, yeah?
Guest:They're talking.
Guest:He starts to spritz them, right?
Guest:Hey, if you sit right, will you?
Guest:Oh, hmm.
Guest:Listen to you guys.
Guest:Buttermilk.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:Dr. Freud.
Guest:Why don't you go to hell?
Guest:Shut up now.
Guest:If you sit right, will you?
Guest:They can't hear him because they can't imagine anyone talking to him that way.
Guest:Listen, you guys, why don't you go home now?
Guest:Your cage is clean.
Guest:Okay, now you should know it's a dangerous table if he sees the maitre d' in the back of the room, like crossing himself.
Guest:So he keeps zinging in and he don't know, right?
Guest:Now, maybe Shelley will get through with the line that these guys hear, unfortunate for him.
Guest:Listen, you guys, let's get those shirts in Sicily.
Marc:now was that a common thing i mean did you know that the the mob was involved with the nightclubs i mean was it something yes well not common but i there was one uh
Guest:He came to every one of my shows, every one of my openings, and he would sit right there in the middle of the room, and he'd laugh like crazy.
Guest:And he was a big guy?
Guest:He was a big guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I never tried to tease him, joke with him, nothing.
Guest:Just let it alone.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was probably the smart move.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:So what led up to the Carnegie Hall performance?
Marc:Because I know you were the first comedian to perform at Carnegie Hall.
Guest:Somebody booked me.
Marc:That was that?
Marc:My agents booked me at Carnegie Hall.
Marc:And you were on Verve Records, so you were, like, I think at that time it seems that, you know, the guys, the original comics who were sort of creating a comedy from their own point of view were tightly affiliated with, like, the sort of jazz people and everything else.
Marc:Because there was only a few comedians on Verve Records.
Marc:The rest were, like, Ella Fitzgerald and a lot of the jazz people at the time.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, it wasn't, was it not unusual...
Marc:Because I'm trying to differentiate, like, because there are definitely comics that were doing straight up Borscht Belt stuff, you know, when you were coming around and onward past when you were around.
Marc:Was that a different world?
Marc:What, Borscht Belt?
Marc:Yeah, well, just that straight up, you know, punchline, set up punchline, you know, run of the mill comics.
Marc:I mean, there's definitely a difference between what you were doing.
Marc:There must have been hundreds of comics around even when you were coming up.
Guest:Maybe there were.
Guest:I didn't think about that.
Guest:I didn't think about Catskills or the... Vegas?
Marc:I didn't think about Vegas.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:You wasn't even on your radar?
Marc:It wasn't the type of thing you were doing?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:So you were definitely more in the hip circles.
Marc:I mean, you were doing a type of comedy that was younger and smarter and for a different crowd of people, really.
Marc:I guess so.
Yeah.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:When was the first time you were in San Francisco?
Marc:How'd that go?
Marc:Did Mort bring you out there?
Marc:Yeah, well, Mort didn't bring me out there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's where I did cut my first record.
Guest:Inside Shelley Berman.
Marc:Yeah, it was done at the Hungry Eye.
Marc:Were things, did you, was there still a lot of the beatnik sort of quality to San Francisco?
Marc:No, the beatniks were around.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:And I remember, you know, but I got to know some beatniks and they would come to my, I had a cottage I rented when I worked in San Francisco.
Guest:They actually overtook my cottage.
Guest:They just came to just be with me and they ran away.
Guest:They ran off?
Guest:They just did everything.
Guest:They got to my kitchen.
Guest:They got to everything.
Guest:But I was okay with them.
Guest:I was okay with that group.
Marc:So after that original outpouring, like 59 to 62, the five records, did you consciously say, I want to move on from stand-up?
Guest:No, I don't think I did that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think I did that, but I was trying, still trying for the theater.
Guest:Yeah, and that happened.
Guest:Yeah, I got some of it, yeah, but not successfully all the time.
Guest:In New York?
Guest:In New York, yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:We're getting onto a subject that I... Can't quite pull... You can't recollect it?
Guest:No, I can't.
Guest:There is a subject I have to... I have to skip.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And now the TV work, in terms of like, how did it come... How did you hook up with Larry for Curb Your Enthusiasm?
Marc:I mean, how long has it been since you've done regular television?
Guest:No, well...
Guest:I was still working.
Marc:Yeah, you work all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then this guy said, they're going to audition so and so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went in.
Guest:I just improvised.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he loved it.
Guest:And immediately I was hired.
Marc:You have a good time with him?
Guest:Working with him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you didn't have a good time working with him.
Guest:No.
Guest:You just did what he said.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I worked with him very nicely.
Guest:I liked it.
Guest:I was good.
Guest:People liked it.
Guest:And so did he.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, when you, because I know you did some teaching, I know you've done some other writing, you know, when you were, you know, what kind of stuff did you teach?
Guest:USC.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:MPW, Master of Professional Writing.
Guest:And my subject was writing humor, literary and dramatic.
Marc:And when you were dealing with another generation of kids, did you find that they had the proper respect or they knew who you were?
Marc:Some did.
Guest:Some did.
Guest:A goodly amount did.
Guest:And I guess I did well, and I guess it all worked out.
Guest:I taught for 23 years.
Guest:So that was like a whole second life for you.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And was it gratifying?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I still would get acting jobs when I could.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I mean, like I was looking at the credits.
Marc:I mean, you know, the TV act, your TV, you never stopped TV acting.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And all the way through it.
Marc:I mean, like some things like Dragnet and Twilight Zone and everything else.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And was that as rewarding as stand-up?
Guest:All of it was rewarding.
Guest:All of it, all of it was wonderful.
Guest:All of it is wonderful.
Marc:Now, when you look back on it all, outside of the Bob Newhart issue, do you feel that, do you have any bitterness about it?
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:Newhart found a way to make people laugh, and he did it.
Guest:that that doesn't make him a thief it doesn't right uh it just it was a a problem for me yeah but uh i can't say he was a big i can't say it was this or that sure sure and with more solid you know when you because i know there's like i was listening to one record
Marc:And you made a comment about Lenny and Mort that, you know, that was funny.
Marc:The bit was that the Pope had, you know, basically the idea was, you know, given Lenny Bruce's bits, the Pope did not change his address.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And was it when these guys were doing politics, was there ever part of you that was that that felt that that was something you should be doing?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Wasn't your wheelhouse?
Marc:No.
Guest:It was all personal, very personal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And were your parents, when you started to make a living doing what you did, did your father come out and see you and whatnot?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And he was proud?
Guest:Yeah, but he was... He was dying.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And... When I...
Guest:When he was, had been accepting me and proud of me and bragged about me and pretty soon he's got serious matters and it's such an ironic thing to be
Guest:I went to see him in the hospital.
Guest:I flew into Chicago and went to see him.
Guest:And I'm in a room where there's my father and a young man are also patients.
Guest:They're two patients.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I can't help it, but my father starts to say something funny and I went with him on that.
Guest:I got him laughing on that.
Guest:And then I got the kid, there was a young fellow next, and I made him laugh a little bit.
Guest:He's laughing and I'm laughing.
Guest:Pretty soon we're talking loud.
Guest:Pretty soon, you know.
Guest:Now that the head nurse comes in,
Guest:And it says, there's a room down there.
Guest:They just want to have your autograph.
Guest:OK, all right.
Guest:So I left the room.
Guest:Then I walked down the hall, and I'm trying to find
Guest:The room, I go to one room, which is the ones who wanted the autograph.
Guest:Down there and down there, I can't find the person, the room that wants the autograph.
Guest:And I go to her, I see her.
Guest:where was the people that wanted my autograph?
Guest:She says, oh, you're so loud.
Guest:You're being so loud.
Guest:This is a hospital.
Guest:So it was just her way of getting me out of my father's room and listening to her scold me.
Guest:and to think of the cheap thing she did to me just to get me out of the room so she could tell me I'm too loud.
Guest:That's horrendous.
Guest:It was the kind of awful thing.
Guest:You achieve some modicum of celebrity and you don't even want to think about it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because you're there with your dad and you're having some laughs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:But she wanted me to be quiet, but she needed me to be quiet.
Guest:So I hope you went back in there and got loud again.
Guest:Well, I got, I don't know, my father was quieter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So what do you got?
Marc:Are you doing any more of the curbs or no?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:If he calls me, I'll be there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he stopped calling me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what do you think about comedy now?
Marc:Do you ever watch?
Marc:Do you ever have moments where you watch?
Marc:No.
Guest:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:The kind of stand-up that exists today is I can't bear it.
Guest:Number one, number one is that the comedian today has to look like the comedian today.
Guest:The comedian today has to work like the comedian today.
Guest:First of all, he must walk first out onto the stage, pick up his mic,
Guest:And and say a good joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, if that's what it's become, shove it.
Guest:And I won't sit for it.
Marc:What about the generation after you, like Richard Lewis, Robert Klein, those guys?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:You like them?
Guest:Richard Lewis was one of my close friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I love him.
Guest:I admire him enormously.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's still out there.
Marc:I interviewed him as well.
Marc:He's still out there doing it.
Marc:He sends me emails when he kills.
Marc:He's a warrior.
Marc:He always kills.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's a warrior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A comedic warrior.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:And what do you think about Jerry?
Guest:Seinfeld?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I don't think he's a stand-up.
Guest:I think he's had his chance in his marvelous show, Seinfeld.
Guest:And I think he did well.
Guest:And if he's still earning or working as an actor, fine.
Guest:But I don't see him that much.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, in your mind, what defines someone being a stand-up and someone just being...
Marc:an actor or shitty?
Marc:What makes someone a real stand-up in your mind?
Guest:I think we're out of sight.
Guest:I believe
Guest:that the old-fashioned stand-up is exactly that, old-fashioned.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I still see the comedians do that.
Guest:I still see a few comedians that can still make me laugh.
Guest:Louis Black, incidentally, is one of my favorite people.
Guest:I see these guys, and they're working well.
Guest:But I don't believe that that particular guy...
Guest:that say for me, my picture of myself in what I did.
Guest:I don't think there's a lot of people still doing that.
Guest:But it's not a...
Guest:It's not a gang.
Guest:It's not.
Marc:It's just a few good guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you think that in terms of like taking the stage that, you know, the grabbing the mic and the doing the joke and the efficiency and the pounding away is not it doesn't take the time to sort of develop a personality or to sort of talk about your point of view and that stuff.
Marc:That's what makes you upset.
Guest:No, nothing makes me upset like that.
Guest:I mean, the comedians... But comedians who want to look like the other comedians.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Comedians who feel that they actually have to walk on stage, pick up the mic...
Guest:And get going.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But if that's what you have to do, go do it.
Guest:But if you can't find yourself...
Guest:in your own area, if you can't find who you are in an area that is strictly your own, well, you're cutting off some of your creativity.
Marc:Oh, that's a beautiful thing to say.
Marc:I think that's a great way to end the interview.
Marc:I really appreciate you talking to me, Mr. Berman.
Marc:Well, I hope I said it right.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:Thank you so much.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed that trip through the past with my guest Shelly Berman.
Marc:It's interesting to hear the arc of a career and to know that...
Marc:I don't think it works out the way you want it to all the time.
Marc:But I'm glad I got to talk to him.
Marc:And I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:If you need anything what the fuck related, go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get some merchandise.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Check the episode guide.
Marc:Leave a comment.
Marc:Do what you got to do.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop available over there.
Marc:I'll be in Philadelphia at Helium December 6th through 8th.
Marc:I'm shooting my show.
Marc:This is the last week of shooting this week.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:I feel all right.
Marc:I feel a little pudgy.
Marc:But I'm all right.
Marc:I'm okay.
I'm okay.